[Deck] Goblins

[GoboLord]

7. Fetchlands are awesome, and they do help Ringleaders get there in long games.


Fetchlands are crap. They are basically mountains that cost you 1 life. Plus:


Ringleader either stacks lands and Vials on bottom of library and/or provides us with more Goblins. For those reasons we should better try to hold Ringleader back until our hand is (nearly) empty and/or all shuffle effects (Matron, fetchlands) are used. Otherwise the lands and Vials we stacked on bottom of library are reshuffled into our library and the chance to draw goblins is decreased.

Using fetches after your Ringleader stacked (often useless) non-Goblins on bottom is just bad.

The reason FOR running fetches would be that they can mess with Jace's fatesealing ability (which is hardly relevant).

[jrw1985]

Using fetches after your Ringleader stacked (often useless) non-Goblins on bottom is just bad.

But what you're positing presupposes that you've already played a Ringleader and it blanked. The idea with the fetches is that you crack them before you drop your first ringleader, reducing the chance of it blanking. That's what I see as their inherent value.

[raindrainxi]

There is a topic I had been thinking of for sometime. There is a number of goblin cards that are not errata as Goblin. I wonder if there is a chance of that happening.



wert's post actually made me look for old cards, and remembered Goblin Arsonist.

Do you think he is a better Mogg Fanatic? I mean the text clearly states that he deals 1 damage after he dies, so he can still do the old tricks that we used Fanatic before.

[Avatara]

wert's post actually made me look for old cards, and remembered Goblin Arsonist.

Do you think he is a better Mogg Fanatic? I mean the text clearly states that he deals 1 damage after he dies, so he can still do the old tricks that we used Fanatic before.

You can't sac Goblin Arsonist at will which can be an issue when facing cards like: Lavamancer, MoR, Confidant, etc.

[BigBopper]

But what you're positing presupposes that you've already played a Ringleader and it blanked. The idea with the fetches is that you crack them before you drop your first ringleader, reducing the chance of it blanking. That's what I see as their inherent value.

You drop your first ringleader either with 4 lands, which means that you have fetched 2-3 times, therefore chances have been increased by a minimum-or which is more likely you have cast vial and it has 4 counters on it. That way you might be sitting on 2 lands, while maybe wasted one of the opponents' lands and just cheat him into play.
Your statement also indicated that you don't go fetching after your first ringleader or each ringleader after the first one is getting worse.

[jrw1985]

Fetchlands are crap. They are basically mountains that cost you 1 life. Plus:



Using fetches after your Ringleader stacked (often useless) non-Goblins on bottom is just bad.

The reason FOR running fetches would be that they can mess with Jace's fatesealing ability (which is hardly relevant).


You drop your first ringleader either with 4 lands, which means that you have fetched 2-3 times, therefore chances have been increased by a minimum-or which is more likely you have cast vial and it has 4 counters on it. That way you might be sitting on 2 lands, while maybe wasted one of the opponents' lands and just cheat him into play.
Your statement also indicated that you don't go fetching after your first ringleader or each ringleader after the first one is getting worse.

I've been advocating running fetches basically since I started playing Goblins. While drinking my Saturday morning coffee and watching cooking shows on PBS I decided to finally put my money where my mouth has been and crank out the numbers.

Here's the setup:
You have 60 cards in your deck. 34 are Goblins. 26 are non-Goblins (22 lands, 4 Vial). You are on the play. On turn 4 you have played 4 lands, you have drawn 10 cards. There are 50 cards left in your deck. 22 are non-Goblins.

I wrote a spreadsheet calculating the odds of revealing non-Goblin cards off of a Ringleader reveal. I calculated the odds for 0 - 4 fetches revealing 0-4 non-goblin cards.

The Results!
*I don't know a way of posting an Excel Spreadsheet to the Source, so bear with me.

Chance of revealing 4 Non-Goblins off of...
0 fetch = 0.031762918
1 fetch = 0.028247654
2 fetch = 0.024899784
3 fetch = 0.021730721
4 fetch = 0.018751724

No surprises here. Fetching more lands out of your library reduces your chance of completely blanking on a Ringleader. But, blanking is highly unlikely regardless of fetches. You will notice, not that it matters, that 4 fetches gives you a 40% better chance of NOT blanking than running 0 fetches. But basically this just shows that having fetched less increases you chance of revealing 4 non-Goblins.

Chance of revealing 3 Non-Goblins off of...
0 fetch = 0.187234043
1 fetch = 0.175763182
2 fetch = 0.164045637
3 fetch = 0.152115045
4 fetch = 0.140012869

There's no significant difference here. Your chance of only drawing 1 goblin off of Ringleader is pretty low regardless of fetches. Still, having fetched less increases you chance of revealing 3 non-Goblins.

Chance of revealing 2 Non-Goblins off of...
0 fetch = 0.379148936*
1 fetch = 0.374653099*
2 fetch = 0.369102683*
3 fetch = 0.362391725*
4 fetch = 0.354407574

* most probable outcome of calculations
Having fetched less increases you chance of revealing 2 non-Goblins. Fetching 0 or fetching 4 doesn't really change the odds too much. However, if there have been 0-3 fetches, revealing 2 non-Goblins is the most likely result of a Ringleader trigger.

Chance of revealing 1 Non-Goblins off of...
0 fetch = 0.312948328
1 fetch = 0.324699352
2 fetch = 0.336725254
3 fetch = 0.348969809
4 fetch = 0.361356742*

Did you catch that?
If you've been paying attention you've noticed that the highest likelihood of revealing 2, 3, or 4 blanks has come from playing fewer fetches. Now the trend is flipped. The higher likelihood of revealing 3 Goblins off a Ringleader comes form running More fetches. In fact, if you've played 4 fetches you are more likely to reveal 3 Goblins than 2 Goblins.

Chance of revealing 0 Non-Goblins off of...
0 fetch = 0.088905775
1 fetch = 0.096636712
2 fetch = 0.105226642
3 fetch = 0.1147927
4 fetch = 0.125471091

Once again, you are more likely to reveal 4 goblins the more you fetch.

Now for some adding.

Chance of revealing 0, 1, or 2 Non-Goblins off of...
0 fetch = 0.78100304
1 fetch = 0.795989163
2 fetch = 0.811054579
3 fetch = 0.826154234
4 fetch = 0.841235408

Chance of revealing 0 or 1 Non-Goblins off of...
0 fetch = 0.401854103
1 fetch = 0.421336064
2 fetch = 0.441951896
3 fetch = 0.463762509
4 fetch = 0.486827833

So there you have it. Each fetchland you activate increases your chance of hitting 3 or 4 goblins off of Ringleader by 2%.

I've found that generally in Legacy game-state is much more important than life total. Drawing more cards is well worth a loss of life associated with it (Sylvan Library).

The field is still completely open for debating whether playing fetches are worth it. At least now we've got a concrete definition of what their benefit is to Ringleader.

[Holly]

So.. went to my first tournament today, going 3-3.

Canadian
He starts: Delver, and my first 3 Lackeys/Instigators are getting bolted/countered, afterwards I'm stuck on 2 lands. Finally Delver flips and kills me.
Second Game: Just like the first one, only 3 Moongose (all 3 topdecked!) instead of the Delver.

Deadguy Ale:
2 Swords & 2 Hymns later, my board is empty and my topdecks can't win vs. Batterskull, Jitte und 2 Bitterblossoms.
Second Game: Start Hand: Vial, Sparksmith, Sharpshooter, Matron, Scrapper, 2 Mountains.
Mountain, Vial, go - Inquisition on Sparksmith.
Land, go - Hymn
Go - Hymn
..
Funny games..

3. Round - The Gate
First game, he starts but I overun him before he can land an Obliterator.
Second game: Dark Ritual, Ritual, Obliterator & Thoughtseize. He's getting me fast.
Third: He can't handle first turn lackey and 2nd turn Instigator, he dies.

4. Round - Lands
Starting with Vial, he plays Maze 1. -> Waste. Another Maze, another (topdecked) Wasteland. I'm getting there fast.
He leads with Exploration & Maze, I with Vial (in case of Standstill), afterwards he gets another Maze, while I get 2 Instigator & 1 Lackey, he cant handle these 3.

5. Round - Rock
I make a huge mistake. I've got a slow hand (2. Turn play Sparksmith, 4 lands) and know he's on Rock as such I mulliganed for a faster hand, gaining nothing.. mull to 5 for a medium hand. Getting Vial out, a Hymn hitting 2 Ringleaders later I lose.
With the first Hand I'd probably won.
Second Game: He cannot handle my army, winning on the 4th turn.
Third Game: "Pretty long" game (my longest this day (~15Min^^) Looked quite good, till 1 Ringleader totally blanked, a deed killed all my stuff and I'm topdecking lands & lackeys which don't help versus his knight.

6. Round - TES
He mulls to 4 and dies on the 4th or 5th turn.
He keeps his 7 just like me (Lackey, 2 Chieftain, 2 Mountain, 1 Faerie Macabre (had to many cards with no use vs combo and thought maybe for an Ill-Gotten Gains), 1 Ringleader). Anyway, he Chant-Walks me twice but isnt doing anything else out of playing 3lands. No cantrip, nothing. Im getting there while drawing really good (Instigator & SGC).


Pros:
-First tournament^^. And it was quite fun.

Contra:
Only quite fun because nearl each of my games were over really fast. Turn 5-6 I could easily tell if I was about to lose or to win and knew only godly draws could save me/him. The games were really one-sided because of bad drawing.. I mean come'on deck.. first match 2 times stuck on 2 lands for the rest of the game? Sucks =/.


Also I couldnt really play this deck. At least it felt like this. In all games together i played/vialed.. 2 maybe 3 Matrons, never had them (or the few times I had the got discarded), mostly won thanks to Lackey, Instigator & Chieftains, helped by 2 SGC and Chieftains. Scrapper.. a single time for an Batterskull. Kiki, Sparksmith, Sharpshooter, Incinerator..never. =(.

[1337erhosen]

So I've only been playing the deck for about a month, and I've run into an interesting question. I don't know if this was ever debated before in this thread, and obviously it's a very hard question to answer, but in general:

If you're on the play and have the choice between dropping Lackey and Vial, which choice is correct?

My first thought is that Lackey is correct because it's explosive and you want to get in with it before they play blockers. But on the other hand Vial is not vulnerable to removal, and turn 2 Vial feels really slow.

Does it change depending on Match-up? What's been best in everyone's experience?

[Avatara]

So I've only been playing the deck for about a month, and I've run into an interesting question. I don't know if this was ever debated before in this thread, and obviously it's a very hard question to answer, but in general:

If you're on the play and have the choice between dropping Lackey and Vial, which choice is correct?

My first thought is that Lackey is correct because it's explosive and you want to get in with it before they play blockers. But on the other hand Vial is not vulnerable to removal, and turn 2 Vial feels really slow.

Does it change depending on Match-up? What's been best in everyone's experience?

Yes it depends on the match-up. Versus blue I would play Lacker first; hoping to draw out their Force of Will. Turn two I would drop second land and play the Vial. Making it Daze proof in the progress.

/edit: if they don't answer the Lackey, chances are you win anyways.

[GoboLord]

John's interesting post

Thank you for those calculations. If you don't mind I'll try to replicate what you did and check the results.
I'm really interested in this topic myself and I want to work out a clear answer that settles this issue once and for all.

[fimo]

did you see the new bolt?
http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/thunderous-wrath/

It may be the answer once for all to the goyf/knight problem. 5 damage for a red mana seems pretty awsome.
It may even gain more value if the deck plays chrome mox/pyrokinesis so it can be "used" even if it is in the opening hand

thoughts?

[Chatto]

Hello to all,

Longtime lurker, first time poster. Today i took a mono red Goblin deck to a 23 person tournament. Finished 7th (3-2), while another Goblin-player finished 3/4th.

My list:

Land

3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
14 Mountain

Main:

2 Siege Gang Commander
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Aether Vial

Other

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Warren Instigator
3 Tarfire

SB

2 Anarchy
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap

Played against the following decks:

R1 Hive Mind/ Show and Tell

G1: I have some goblins on the field, but he attacks with Emrakul, after which i can't do anything, loss
G2: I start with Lackey. He pass, I attack and put Kiki Jiki into play and cast Piledriver. He does nothing. At the end of his turn, i copy Piledriver. Third turn I cast Chieftain and copy another Piledriver. My opponent stared at the board with a big grin as I declared my attack. Swing for the win.
G3: I do some damage, but it's no use; he casts Hivemind and some pact, i die

0-1

R2 R/ U Burn

G1: He wins the roll and starts with Goblin Guide and swings. I have a Knesis, but decide to wait till there is another target. Meanwhile I'm wasting some of his lands. I'm down to 12, when he cast another Guide. He swings and I take them both out. He only has two land, one of which is a Mountain. I manage to keep on porting it, while steadily build my army. He draws poorly; I win.
G2: He is manaflooded, but without any burnspell he scoops.

1-1

R 3 Affinity

G1: I am pretty new to Legacy, but my opponent is really new to Legacy. He mulls to five. I keep removing with Tarfire, Wasteland and Knesis, attacking with Lackey which he blocks with a Thopter. When I attack with Chieftain, Matron and Lackey, he makes a lethal mistake. He forgot the +1/+1 of Chieftain and lost his last blockers. After that, I go for the kill
G2: A swarm of Goblins seal the deal

2-1

R 4 Maverick with NO Pro-package

G1: The game is going on nicely, but I don't have enough removal. He, however, casts Progenitus and I die.
G2: The game turns into a grinding game. I remove some creatures, he plowes some creatures. I take some life, but it's not enough. He once again cast Progenitus, while having some blockers, being a Noble Hierach, Dryad Arbor and a Maze. My army consist out of Piledriver, Kiki, and some other Goblins. I also have two Vials on 2. He swings and takes me down to 11. I only have one turn left, so I start counting. On his EoT I copy Piledriver and start my own turn. I take my Vial to 3 and put into play a Chieftain and Sharpshooter, with which I take out the Arbor and Hierarch. I copy another Piledriver and declare my attack; he wants to use his Maze, but scoops when he finds out that each of my Piledrivers is 16/2.
G3: A classic case of Goblins for the win!

3-1

R 5 Esperblade (played by a friend of mine, who also wins the tournament)

G1: A long grinding game, but I win somehow. It's also the end of my luck.
G2: I remove creatures, he removes creatures. In the end it's not enough, he wins.
G3: I grab nothing and lose to a swarm of flying spirit tokens.

3-2

Some thoughts;

1) Chieftain was good, but not spectaculair. The +1/+1 was nice, but sometimes I was low on mana, especially when using Rishadan Port or using my Wasteland. It made me wish for a Warchief. Also; they both give haste.
2) Pyrokinesis main was really nice. Because having so much removal main, I only boarded little in all my matches.
3) I never searched for a Tarfire, so I was thinking to replace them with Lightning Bolt. It also helps to have no tribal instant against Maverick, i found out.
4) I never saw any combo and plan to change my sideboard to fight other decks.
5) Few people even bothered about Kiki-Jiki, which kind of suprised me. Did one of you also had the same reaction?

@ fimo; I talked with the R/ U Burn-player about Thunderous Wrath; he was planning to play it, because it was easier for him to set up this new 'miracle' (with the use of Brainstorm and/ or Ponder) It's maybe not even good enough as a 4-of, rather a 2-of. We could be wrong of course. Either way, I think R/ U Burn will see some play.

[Angels]

If you need to SB in CotV vs decks like maverick, delver and burn, what goblins would you side out for the matchup?

And do people play ports in MD. I think it really makes the deck slow/controllish.

[Hyped]

If you need to SB in CotV vs decks like maverick, delver and burn, what goblins would you side out for the matchup?

And do people play ports in MD. I think it really makes the deck slow/controllish.

For CotV, you can side out -4 vial or -4 lackey depending on if you're on the play or the draw. If you like having both, you probably want to just trim a few 4 ofs down to 3 ofs, particularly the higher CMC guys when vs. burn since the game is not likely to go long.

I'm not sure siding Chalice vs. any of those decks is optimal as Burn's clock is only about 1/2 a turn faster than Goblins'. Of course it depends on what else is in your SB, but they've still got plenty of 2 drops and Fireblast, and most relevantly Smash to Smithereens from the SB for your Vials.

On Rishadan Port, I don't think it is wise to play in a list with 6+ RR costing Goblins (Chieftain, Warchief, Instigator). But in some lists the ability to control mana is very strong. I'll never forget tapping down a Dryad Arbor turn 2 to sneak a Lackey in.


did you see the new bolt?
http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/thunderous-wrath/

It may be the answer once for all to the goyf/knight problem. 5 damage for a red mana seems pretty awsome.
It may even gain more value if the deck plays chrome mox/pyrokinesis so it can be "used" even if it is in the opening hand

thoughts?

Smart of you to think of running it with mox / pyro so that it isn't dead in the opening hand, but I don't think Thunderous Wrath looks all that different than Dismember. I would say that the Miracle mechanic on Thunderous is slightly less of a drawback than -4 life from Dismember, but both cards are killing x/5 and smaller creatures at instant speed. Just my 2 cents - play testing could prove otherwise. (Pretty sure Dismember got play tested to death tho right?)

[Avatara]

That new bolt is much better in decks like RU(G) Delver. They can prepare it with cards like Brainstorm.

[Davran]

So I've only been playing the deck for about a month, and I've run into an interesting question. I don't know if this was ever debated before in this thread, and obviously it's a very hard question to answer, but in general:

If you're on the play and have the choice between dropping Lackey and Vial, which choice is correct?

My first thought is that Lackey is correct because it's explosive and you want to get in with it before they play blockers. But on the other hand Vial is not vulnerable to removal, and turn 2 Vial feels really slow.

Does it change depending on Match-up? What's been best in everyone's experience?

Yes, it depends a great deal on the match-up, but it also depends on your hand.

Game 1 on the play I will drop Lackey nearly every time. This forces your opponent to have an answer or risk giving you a pretty significant advantage. If your Lackey meets a Force of Will you are playing a control match-up anyway and will likely land your Vial on turn 2 which is huge against them.

[ScatmanX]

"new Bolt" is bad here. We don't want to HAVE to cast the removal spell when we draw it, because T1 you want to cast Lackey/Vial, T2 cast Instigator, Piledriver, T3 cast Warchief/Chieftain, T4 cast Matron/Ringleader. AND we may want to use our removal on the eot of their turn. I don't think we can manage to dodge all those situations.

And well, Imo we'll have to start packing 4+ ReBs on the SB again. New Time Walk will screw hard with us.

(hm, maybe we can splash Blue, play it and Brainstorm... =p)

[fimo]

That new bolt is much better in decks like RU(G) Delver. They can prepare it with cards like Brainstorm.

It is. I guess that library manipulation makes it great but that doesn t mean that it couldn t be beneficial without. I think that it could seriously compete with the lightning bolt sloths in goblins (if any). 5 damage straight in the face for 1 mana is 25% of the life total. Also, it is T1 lackey friendly as opposite to cards like goblin granade.
It not a 4-of but it may see some play.

[1337erhosen]

I agree that Thunderous Wrath is just not what this deck wants to be doing. It is extremely inconsistent and Pyrokenisis, Tarfire, and Lightning Bolt are just so much better.

In other news, I'll be taking this deck to a SCG Super IQ in Fenton, MI this Sunday, so I'll be sure to take good notes and leave a tournament report here.

One thing I do need help with is my sideboard. I'm running the 4-of list with all the staples as 4-ofs and minimal toolbox and minimal removal.

Here's what I have so far:
4 Pyrokenisis
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4?

I'm looking to just concede the Storm and High Tide match-up, as I don't see them being a big part of the meta, but the combo I am expecting to see is Show and Tell. I have one Stingscourger in the main, and have tested well pre-board, but I'm worried about extending into Firespout in G2 and 3.
Also I don't know about the Burn matchup either. Can I bring in anything besides Jitte?
Is there anything else I'm missing?

[polar]

"new Bolt" is bad here. We don't want to HAVE to cast the removal spell when we draw it, because T1 you want to cast Lackey/Vial, T2 cast Instigator, Piledriver, T3 cast Warchief/Chieftain, T4 cast Matron/Ringleader. AND we may want to use our removal on the eot of their turn. I don't think we can manage to dodge all those situations.

And well, Imo we'll have to start packing 4+ ReBs on the SB again. New Time Walk will screw hard with us.

(hm, maybe we can splash Blue, play it and Brainstorm... =p)

I don't think that "time Walk" will give gobbos any trouble, blue deck is alwayas a easy match up, the big deal is always combos (and I don't think any combo will use that card, unlees they create an Pyromancer Ascension for legacy...)

[GoboLord]

I agree that Thunderous Wrath is just not what this deck wants to be doing. It is extremely inconsistent and Pyrokenisis, Tarfire, and Lightning Bolt are just so much better.

In other news, I'll be taking this deck to a SCG Super IQ in Fenton, MI this Sunday, so I'll be sure to take good notes and leave a tournament report here.

One thing I do need help with is my sideboard. I'm running the 4-of list with all the staples as 4-ofs and minimal toolbox and minimal removal.

Here's what I have so far:
4 Pyrokenisis
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4?

I'm looking to just concede the Storm and High Tide match-up, as I don't see them being a big part of the meta, but the combo I am expecting to see is Show and Tell. I have one Stingscourger in the main, and have tested well pre-board, but I'm worried about extending into Firespout in G2 and 3.
Also I don't know about the Burn matchup either. Can I bring in anything besides Jitte?
Is there anything else I'm missing?

Against Burn you might want to side in Chalice of the Void. Chalice is also good against random Affinity Decks (set @0 on the play) and gives you at least some % for the storm-combo MUs.
I personally don't like Jítte, but that does not seem to be a point of discussion for you.
Maybe you should spend 2 slots on artifact hate.

[ScatmanX]

I don't think that "time Walk" will give gobbos any trouble, blue deck is alwayas a easy match up, the big deal is always combos (and I don't think any combo will use that card, unlees they create an Pyromancer Ascension for legacy...)
And Merfolk didn't gave us any trouble before Coralhelm Commander and Kira.
And Stoneforge didn't gave us any trouble before Batterskull.
And Burn didn't gave us much* trouble before Flamebreak and Searing Blaze.
And Survival didn't gave un any trouble before Vengevine.

Well, I guess you get the picture. Things can change.
Let's hope this card is not the blowout I'm imagining it will be...

[wert]

What is the last goblin card is that relevant and playable? Frankly, I can't remember, at least there is none for the last few sets. We can hope but with the theme of this set, I doubt so.

I wonder if it is more possible if they errata some old goblins cards listed in my previous post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Vial-Goblins-2.0&p=630016&viewfull=1#post630016). Any better chances of that?

[ScatmanX]

What is the last goblin card is that relevant and playable?
Warren Instigator and others in Zendikar.
Goblin Chieftain in Magic 2012.
Tarfire and others in Lorwin.

[GoboLord]

The field is still completely open for debating whether playing fetches are worth it. At least now we've got a concrete definition of what their benefit is to Ringleader.

Regarding jrw's post on the page before I want to add two things:

(1) When interpreting those calculations you should note that is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that you will have used 3 or 4 fetches until turn 4. Statistically you will miss a landdrop on turn 3 or 4 which mean that you will have 4 lands on turn 5 (where jrw assumed it would be turn 4). Apart from that it is way more likely that you will have used 0-2 fetches until turn 5 (assuming you are indeed running 8 fetches. Less fetches decrease that chance on "thinning out" your deck before the first Ringleader). This means that the chances on drawing EXTRA Goblins out of a ringleader, compared to a situation in which you didn't have fetchlands are almost non-existent.
(2) jrw didn't calculate that we might have lowered our goblin-count before we play the first Ringleader with Goblin Matron or Gempalm Incinerator (the latter has a ~30% chance of NOT lowering our Goblin count).

What I want to point out is that you should not run fetchlands in order to thin out your deck. Reason should be:

(a) messing with Jace's fateseal.
(b) bluffing that splash-colors
(c) catching Stifles from unexperienced players (you can argue about the usefulness of that one)
(d) playing in an environment where lifetotals don't matter. (Enchantress, Stack, Hightide, SneakShow, HiveMind)

At last I want to revise what I wrote in the primer: having stacked multiple non-Goblins on bottom of your library should be kept in mind before using shuffling effects (Matron/fetches) but they should not influence the order in which you use either of them.

[polar]

And Merfolk didn't gave us any trouble before Coralhelm Commander and Kira.
And Stoneforge didn't gave us any trouble before Batterskull.
And Burn didn't gave us much* trouble before Flamebreak and Searing Blaze.
And Survival didn't gave un any trouble before Vengevine.

Well, I guess you get the picture. Things can change.
Let's hope this card is not the blowout I'm imagining it will be...

Is what I've said with pyromancer ascescion will born in legacy, or other stupid combo or a MonoU Aggro, is a lot of speculation, and this card can Borndead in legacy, like Mental misstep (ok two months to deal)

[polar]

Anyway, I'm thinking in a effective S against combo decks
I'm using this now

3 Mindbreak trap
3 Thorn of amhetyst(against Burn too)
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Relic of projenitus(Gw field)
3 Anarchy(GW field)
2 REB

CotV is better then Thorn agains combos?(I think TES and spiral, hive mind I test and CotV is Huge better)

[fimo]

Anyway, I'm thinking in a effective S against combo decks
I'm using this now

3 Mindbreak trap
3 Thorn of amhetyst(against Burn too)
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Relic of projenitus(Gw field)
3 Anarchy(GW field)
2 REB

CotV is better then Thorn agains combos?(I think TES and spiral, hive mind I test and CotV is Huge better)

I don t think that against G/W maverick it is worth to remove goblins from MD to give space to relic of progenitus. If you play relic they can easily dodge it and win in another ways. Every MD card you have is importartant against them and relic doesn t make a real difference.
Anarchy is better even though it is likely to costs 5 to cast since they started playing Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. The only 2 cards that cracks their deck are perish and cursed totem, all the others are bah, it can easily be that you will never be able to cast them or that they will dodge your hate. With 4 GSZ and a toolbox agains EVERYTHING, non-goblin hate is more likely to hurt you than them.

[jrw1985]

I agree that Thunderous Wrath is just not what this deck wants to be doing. It is extremely inconsistent and Pyrokenisis, Tarfire, and Lightning Bolt are just so much better.

In other news, I'll be taking this deck to a SCG Super IQ in Fenton, MI this Sunday, so I'll be sure to take good notes and leave a tournament report here.

One thing I do need help with is my sideboard. I'm running the 4-of list with all the staples as 4-ofs and minimal toolbox and minimal removal.

Here's what I have so far:
4 Pyrokenisis
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4?

I'm looking to just concede the Storm and High Tide match-up, as I don't see them being a big part of the meta, but the combo I am expecting to see is Show and Tell. I have one Stingscourger in the main, and have tested well pre-board, but I'm worried about extending into Firespout in G2 and 3.
Also I don't know about the Burn matchup either. Can I bring in anything besides Jitte?
Is there anything else I'm missing?

If you're worried about SnT then REB/Pyroblast should be in your 15. If you're worried about Burn, Chalice of the Void is good, and it's pretty great against a lot of decks in the field (Combo, UR, Zoo... not that anyone plays Zoo anymore).

Also, 4 Pyrokinesis seems a bit much. It's not that great of a late game draw, so I'd probably onyl run 2 or 3 and open up a few slots for Artifact hate or wahtever you see fit.

Also, Jitte seems slow. One of the Sourcers recently placed 4th at SGC Indianpolis (I think...) and he had 2 SB slots for Zuran Orb just so he had a quick and easy Lifegain alternative. Didn't seem ideal, but if you want to beat burn a little life gain will go a long way.

[PedroFilipe92]

Need some advices for my sideboard.
Fortunately in my meta there are few combo decks, so i´m more focused in Stoneblade, Bant and Maverick.

Right now I´m using this sideboard:
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (run 1 Mainboard too)
1 Stingscourger (run 1 Mainboard too)
3 Pyroblast
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Anarchy
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter (good card against Lingering Souls, that is gaining popularity)
4 Graveyard Hate (right now i´m using 2 Faerie Macabre, and 2 Relic of Progenitus. But i´m thinking of using a 4 off anyone of them. Which one is better in your opinion?)


Thanks for your help.

P,S - Sorry for bad english

[jrw1985]

Need some advices for my sideboard.
Fortunately in my meta there are few combo decks, so i´m more focused in Stoneblade, Bant and Maverick.

Right now I´m using this sideboard:
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (run 1 Mainboard too)
1 Stingscourger (run 1 Mainboard too)
3 Pyroblast
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Anarchy
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter (good card against Lingering Souls, that is gaining popularity)
4 Graveyard Hate (right now i´m using 2 Faerie Macabre, and 2 Relic of Progenitus. But i´m thinking of using a 4 off anyone of them. Which one is better in your opinion?)


Thanks for your help.

P,S - Sorry for bad english

Your sideboard looks like it will crush exactly what you want it to crush.

[jrw1985]

Alright kids:: Descendants' Path
Enchantment 2G
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library. If it's a creature card that shares a creature type with a creature you control, you can cast this card without paying its mana cost. Otherwise, put it at the bottom of your library.

Is it playable in Goblins? I'd like to think that it could work, but it can't play a creature until T4, whereas Vial can play a creature T2 and 3, and at instant speed, so I can't see replacing Vial with Path. Also, Path doen't really cheat goblins in, and it can't play Tarfires or Weirdings, or Gempalms the way you want to play them. Couple that with the fact that half the time it's not going to put anything in play at all (Reveals land, Vial, path, Pyro) and this card does not seem powerful enough to make the grade. Too bad, because it's ability does seem tailor made to Goblins.

[Avatara]

Alright kids:: Descendants' Path
Enchantment 2G
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library. If it's a creature card that shares a creature type with a creature you control, you can cast this card without paying its mana cost. Otherwise, put it at the bottom of your library.

Is it playable in Goblins? I'd like to think that it could work, but it can't play a creature until T4, whereas Vial can play a creature T2 and 3, and at instant speed, so I can't see replacing Vial with Path. Also, Path doen't really cheat goblins in, and it can't play Tarfires or Weirdings, or Gempalms the way you want to play them. Couple that with the fact that half the time it's not going to put anything in play at all (Reveals land, Vial, path, Pyro) and this card does not seem powerful enough to make the grade. Too bad, because it's ability does seem tailor made to Goblins.
Might be nice with Boggart Harbinger... But I doubt that it's Legacy worthy (maybe Modern Goblins?). The card has two conditions... you need a goblin in play and you need to have a goblin on top. That's a horrible top deck after a sweeper.

[ScatmanX]

Might be nice with Boggart Harbinger... But I doubt that it's Legacy worthy (maybe Modern Goblins?). The card has two conditions... you need a goblin in play and you need to have a goblin on top. That's a horrible top deck after a sweeper.
Agree with this.
And it demands a splash.
And it shows all your cards to you opponents. If you get a Tuktuk/Gempalm/Stingscourge/Tarfire that you want to save for later, goodbye surprise factor.

[Hof]

Exciting. Library manipulation, acceleration, and card advantage in one card? Yes, please. I think this is worth looking into as a replacement for Vial. Might need Chrome Mox and/or Ancient Tomb.

[Avatara]

Exciting. Library manipulation, acceleration, and card advantage in one card? Yes, please. I think this is worth looking into as a replacement for Vial. Might need Chrome Mox and/or Ancient Tomb.
Why would you want to play this card on turn one or two? Our only one drop creature is Lackey.

[Hof]

True. Unless I have Chrome Mox, then it isn't so true.

I just realized that if the wording is correct and if I don't have a creature in play when that thing triggers, I have to fateseal myself so to speak. That does seem bad. Reading is tech, I guess.

[jrw1985]

True. Unless I have Chrome Mox, then it isn't so true.

I just realized that if the wording is correct and if I don't have a creature in play when that thing triggers, I have to fateseal myself so to speak. That does seem bad. Reading is tech, I guess.

Whoa. I just realized that if you have no creatures in play you fateseal yourself no matter what you reveal. That's kinda silly.

[Hof]

Seems silly indeed. But I guess on the average it is better to draw a random card than a random card that has been revealed to opponent?

[Pinoy Goblin]

I dont know guys but our tribes future is getting dim, with Avacyn Restored spoilers, almost all of our competitors such as burn,u/r delver, u/w stoneblade, hightide, reanimator and dredge are getting all the good stuffs that they need:mad: It's getting hard for us now . . . We need more utility gobs for us to be on top again, hope the next next next block would be a tribal one:rolleyes:

[Avatara]

Seems silly indeed. But I guess on the average it is better to draw a random card than a random card that has been revealed to opponent?
The more information you give to your opponent; the better he/she can calculate odds.

[1337erhosen]

I dont know guys but our tribes future is getting dim, with Avacyn Restored spoilers, almost all of our competitors such as burn,u/r delver, u/w stoneblade, hightide, reanimator and dredge are getting all the good stuffs that they need:mad: It's getting hard for us now . . . We need more utility gobs for us to be on top again, hope the next next next block would be a tribal one:rolleyes:

I don't see this at all. Goblins is 50% or better against the big three decks right now, despite having a poor combo matchup. It's yet to be seen if any of the new cards are going to see play in Legacy. I've done some testing with the Miracle cards, and they're very situational. Even if a few decks do adopt them, I would certainly not count Goblins out as a contender in future metas.

A good question is why does Goblins see so much less play now then it did 18 months ago?
I know it essentially died during the Mental Misstep era, but ever since then it's only seen fringe play. Obviously Merfolk dying out has had an impact, as that used to be a very good matchup, and Stoneforge sees a ton more play, but with Tuktuk Scrapper we can beat cards like Jitte and play around Batterskull.

[polar]

I don't see this at all. Goblins is 50% or better against the big three decks right now, despite having a poor combo matchup. It's yet to be seen if any of the new cards are going to see play in Legacy. I've done some testing with the Miracle cards, and they're very situational. Even if a few decks do adopt them, I would certainly not count Goblins out as a contender in future metas.

A good question is why does Goblins see so much less play now then it did 18 months ago?
I know it essentially died during the Mental Misstep era, but ever since then it's only seen fringe play. Obviously Merfolk dying out has had an impact, as that used to be a very good matchup, and Stoneforge sees a ton more play, but with Tuktuk Scrapper we can beat cards like Jitte and play around Batterskull.


Gobbos isn't a popular deck cuz he isn't, ther no other explication, everbody like to play fatties, and gobbos have troubles against big Footies, but I always have nice results with gobbos (in a champz with 46 player last april 1st have 5 goblins on meta, and I'm the only top 8 gobbos, but have 1 other on top 16 and other gobbos player aren't very good player at all, lackey on 1 always imposes fear, but is hard to deal with a GW on play...

[markbris]

I don't see this at all. Goblins is 50% or better against the big three decks right now, despite having a poor combo matchup. It's yet to be seen if any of the new cards are going to see play in Legacy. I've done some testing with the Miracle cards, and they're very situational. Even if a few decks do adopt them, I would certainly not count Goblins out as a contender in future metas.

A good question is why does Goblins see so much less play now then it did 18 months ago?
I know it essentially died during the Mental Misstep era, but ever since then it's only seen fringe play. Obviously Merfolk dying out has had an impact, as that used to be a very good matchup, and Stoneforge sees a ton more play, but with Tuktuk Scrapper we can beat cards like Jitte and play around Batterskull.

I think it died during the mm era and people just never picked it up again. Most pf them probably switched to maverick and see no reason to switch back which is fine. Personally the fewer people play it the better so it stays under the radar.

[Pinoy Goblin]

We have been on the downside of things ever since the misstep era, Im playing gobs for 6 years now and its getting harder for me, I have been on the top 8 once and top 16 multiple times consistently on major tourneys and believe me guys all of those matches are hard fought, I never felt that I was dominant, all of those tourneys I felt I was the underdog most of the time on my meta. People are playing decks based on stoneforge, goyfs, kotr's and now delvers which gives us clock to deal with it. Those fatties (kotr and tarmo) are public enemy number one, anyone of you here experienced a bashing of 2 tarmogoyf's in play? thats hard especially canadian thresh ang rug versions now a days packing in forked bolt . . . . plus are combo match ups are worst, Ive been thinking for now main decking 4 thorn of amethyst, Ill give you guys a feedback on this with combo,reanimate,burn,u/r delver and rug on my meta this would probably slow them down. Guys were brainstorming here for years with the available cards and some suboptimal ones, wotc needs to be printing more gobs for us to be more competitive again......

[Vandalize]

This deck pretty much died for 3 reasons:

1) People stopped using CounterTop as they're main control shell. AEther Vial based decks seemd to be better under that metagame.

2) The printing of Stoneforge Mystic (and to lesser extent, Batterskull), has put some trouble in goblins strategy, because people can get Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice and Batterskull online consistently, which is a major problem for this creature-heavy archtype. Snapcaster Mage was another inclusion, making cheap removal even better.

3) Decks playing Knight of the Reliquary and other fatties are hard to deal, because Goblins removal is limited and conditional (unless you want to disrupt your deck's synergy). Gempalm Incinerator isn't as good as he used to be.

Still, this deck is very viable in the right metagame, because it still has one of the most powerful plays in Legacy (Hi, Lackey!). It's just sad that Rishadan Port and goblin-shape removal aren't doing as fine as they did before.

My latest take on this deck is one that I've had plenty discussion back in the thread with GoboLord and ScatmanX:

7 Mountain
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
3 Chrome Mox

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Weirding

4 AEther Vial

SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 2 Boartusk Liege
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis

This deck really doesn't care about anything, besides going crazy with Chrome Mox into business. It'd dare calling it 'Combo-Goblins'. You don't have to worry about Tarfiring people or Tuktuking artifacts. It's just a plain race.

There's no much of an explanation, just test it and take your own conclusions.

PS: Auntie's Hovel instead of fetchlands, deal with it. I don't like to mess with my Ringleader bottom stack.

[Nameless Two]

I think your list could use Kiki-Jiki Vandalize.

Swinging on turn 2 with Instigator and a Matron in hand can make you 'combo out' on turn 3 with kiki in the deck.

Also, stuff like eot copy chieftain, my turn, copy chieftain, can also break combat pretty bad.

Besides, you have 3 chrome moxes to put fatties in if you don't need em in multiples...

Ofcourse he's extra sweet with the tuktuk scrapper, but that card slows the deck down against some decks.

Did you try him? (ofcourse you did, but did you try him again? ;)!)

Also, no fetch means less random losses against double stifle ... I say keep auntie's hovel

[jrw1985]

@Vandalize
I agree with Nameless Two. You could easily fit a Kiki-Jiki into that build.

[Humphrey]

I will absolutely try Descendants' Path. Think about it, it even filters your lands to draw into more buisness. I´ll replace Instigator

[liamb]

I can't recall who suggested the crazy idea with Word of Seizing. Now we have it on the 3/3 stick (even though it is not a goblin):


Zealous Conscripts 4R
Creature - Human, Warrior
Haste
When Fanatic Recruits comes into play, gain control of target permanent until end of turn. Untap that card. It gains haste until end of turn.
3/3

Illus: Steve Prescott

[Avatara]

I can't recall who suggested the crazy idea with Word of Seizing. Now we have it on the 3/3 stick (even though it is not a goblin):


Zealous Conscripts 4R
Creature - Human, Warrior
Haste
When Fanatic Recruits comes into play, gain control of target permanent until end of turn. Untap that card. It gains haste until end of turn.
3/3

Illus: Steve Prescott
Ok, next time please print it as a 1/1 Goblin for 1RR or so.

[wert]

Ok, next time please print it as a 1/1 Goblin for 1RR or so.

Actually, if it is goblin shaped, it could be considered as it is. But due to the theme, I doubt there would be ANY goblin cards in this set, much less usable ones.

[jrw1985]

Goblins could still use another ridiculously overpowered, synergystic 1 drop and 2 drop. Power creep in other creatures is making it more and more difficult for synergystic tribal decks to keep up.

Snapcaster and Stoneforge have given other decks the creature-centric built-in card advantage that used to be Goblin's territory.

Delver allows blue decks to put on a fast, evasive clock, and has brought burn back as a win condition (by allowing disruption and burn to back-up a T1 Delver).

It used to be that only decks with FoW and StP could deal with a T1 Lackey. Now every deck that's not running W is running R for Bolt.

Gempalm just isn't good enough anymore since it's getting easier for opponents to kill early goblins while playing creatures with bigger butts.

Rishadan Port is less useful since fewer goblins can be cheated into play when Lackey is less likely to connect, so you need that mana for casting spells. yech.

I feel like there's an angle here that we're not exploring...

[ScatmanX]

I feel like there's an angle here that we're not exploring...
Which one?

[markbris]

We have been on the downside of things ever since the misstep era, Im playing gobs for 6 years now and its getting harder for me, I have been on the top 8 once and top 16 multiple times consistently on major tourneys and believe me guys all of those matches are hard fought, I never felt that I was dominant, all of those tourneys I felt I was the underdog most of the time on my meta. People are playing decks based on stoneforge, goyfs, kotr's and now delvers which gives us clock to deal with it. Those fatties (kotr and tarmo) are public enemy number one, anyone of you here experienced a bashing of 2 tarmogoyf's in play? thats hard especially canadian thresh ang rug versions now a days packing in forked bolt . . . . plus are combo match ups are worst, Ive been thinking for now main decking 4 thorn of amethyst, Ill give you guys a feedback on this with combo,reanimate,burn,u/r delver and rug on my meta this would probably slow them down. Guys were brainstorming here for years with the available cards and some suboptimal ones, wotc needs to be printing more gobs for us to be more competitive again......

I meant to say this last night but I agree. Every game with gobs now is either 50/50 or worse. It used to be u could crush Merfolk and CB all day long; duke it out with zoo and dodge combo. Now there's no gimmes and combo butchers us still. We really have no disruption now as ports are ineffective and we aren't doing anything broken other than lackeys which are stopped easily. I feel like most games I win I am merely snatching the win.

[Nameless Two]

Yeah I guess we need something like:

Goblin Swinedriver 1R
Protection from White
Whenever Goblin Swinedriver attacks, destroy target non-basic land.
2/1

Oh well, one can dream right?

Meanwhile, snatching is the usual way for a Goblin deck to take a win right? One big swing to end it all out of the blue?

[jrw1985]

Which one?

The focus has been on cheating goblins into play for so long that we're ignoring that a T1 Lackey/Vial isn't enough anymore. Lackey is to too answerable (RUG plays counter and Bolt, Stoneblade plays Swords and counters, Maverick plays Mom and Swords). Vial is too slow (T4 Matron into T5 Ringleader isn't good enough against T1 Delver or T2 Stoneforge). And mostly, since we're so focused on getting cheaters into play early, we've allowed the mana curve to get outrageously high. Chieftain, Warchief, Sharpshooter, Tuktuk all have outrageous CMCs for their power level. That's not a problem if they're cheated into play, but since Lackey is connecting less you're more often stuck with them in hand. Since their CMC is so high going the Vial route is extremely slow. A T5 Ringleader isn't going to do much good against T1 Delver.

Instead of focusing on cheating goblins into play, I believe we need to lower our mana curve. We need to run more 1 and 2 drops and free spells (Pyrokinesis).

I've been goldfishing this build this weekend, and it seems promising...

Creature (31)
1x Stingscourger
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Warren Instigator

11x Mountain
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland
2x Scalding Tarn

2x Tarfire
2x Pyrokinesis

4x AEther Vial

The obvious change is the inclusion of a set of Mogg Fanatic. I'm trying out Fanatic because he's a great answer to many of the threats in the format, he enables a play of T1 Vial into T2 Fanatic>Gempalm. He's also an excellent defensive play of T1 Fantaic>T2 Winstigator. Tarfire and Gempalm back him up. He's great to pitch to Pyrokinesis, and he's a good body on the field to be bulked up by Chieftain and Piledriver.

Really it seems like we need T1 plays that set up our gameplan but aren't just Vial/Lackey, and I thing Fanatic does that.

[markbris]

The focus has been on cheating goblins into play for so long that we're ignoring that a T1 Lackey/Vial isn't enough anymore. Lackey is to too answerable (RUG plays counter and Bolt, Stoneblade plays Swords and counters, Maverick plays Mom and Swords). Vial is too slow (T4 Matron into T5 Ringleader isn't good enough against T1 Delver or T2 Stoneforge). And mostly, since we're so focused on getting cheaters into play early, we've allowed the mana curve to get outrageously high. Chieftain, Warchief, Sharpshooter, Tuktuk all have outrageous CMCs for their power level. That's not a problem if they're cheated into play, but since Lackey is connecting less you're more often stuck with them in hand. Since their CMC is so high going the Vial route is extremely slow. A T5 Ringleader isn't going to do much good against T1 Delver.

Instead of focusing on cheating goblins into play, I believe we need to lower our mana curve. We need to run more 1 and 2 drops and free spells (Pyrokinesis).

I've been goldfishing this build this weekend, and it seems promising...

Creature (31)
1x Stingscourger
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Warren Instigator

11x Mountain
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland
2x Scalding Tarn

2x Tarfire
2x Pyrokinesis

4x AEther Vial

The obvious change is the inclusion of a set of Mogg Fanatic. I'm trying out Fanatic because he's a great answer to many of the threats in the format, he enables a play of T1 Vial into T2 Fanatic>Gempalm. He's also an excellent defensive play of T1 Fantaic>T2 Winstigator. Tarfire and Gempalm back him up. He's great to pitch to Pyrokinesis, and he's a good body on the field to be bulked up by Chieftain and Piledriver.

Really it seems like we need T1 plays that set up our gameplan but aren't just Vial/Lackey, and I thing Fanatic does that.

I'm not gonna lie I'm tempted to take vial out of the deck. I know that sounds awful but its not really needed against much these days.

Edit:

To expand on Vial:

Esperblade: seems good here I'll grant
RUG: Seems awful
Maverick: Is good if you can keep it in play but it's not hard at all for them to blow it up with qasali's and its gonna seem awful slow when they go t1 heirach or arbor into t1 KotR or something and you've got vial 1st turn.
Combo: Obviously terrible, sided out alot.

The list would obviously have to be reworked though because you can't cheat the land count as much.

[1337erhosen]

The obvious change is the inclusion of a set of Mogg Fanatic. I'm trying out Fanatic because he's a great answer to many of the threats in the format, he enables a play of T1 Vial into T2 Fanatic>Gempalm. He's also an excellent defensive play of T1 Fantaic>T2 Winstigator. Tarfire and Gempalm back him up. He's great to pitch to Pyrokinesis, and he's a good body on the field to be bulked up by Chieftain and Piledriver.

Really it seems like we need T1 plays that set up our gameplan but aren't just Vial/Lackey, and I thing Fanatic does that.

I like the idea of Fanatic as well. He has a lot of utility, like removing Bridge from Below and giving us reach. Also, here's a list of the threats he answers:

Mother of Runes
Dryad Arbor
Noble Hierarch
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Grim Lavamancer
Snapcaster Mage
Vendilion Clique
Dark Confidant

He seems fine, but you're cutting the explosiveness from the deck in the form of Piledriver and Warchief for burn. You're game plan seems to be playing a more control-based game, where you slow down their threats and overwhelm with card advantage in the late game. I don't know if that's right or wrong, but it's definitely an interesting concept.

Burn doesn't really answer the threat of equipment, which is the biggest threat Esper Stoneforge and Maverick have, because they're never really going to run out of creatures because of Lingering Souls etc. My personal strategy has been instead to "Be the beatdown" against those decks using the 4 Warchief/Piledriver/Chieftain and answer equipment with Tuktuk Scrapper, which I don't see in your list.

The burn build is going to be weaker to combo as well, because Piledriver and Warchief are two of the main cards used in our turn 4 kills.

[Nameless Two]

So what are we going to do: race faster? Or stabilize more quickly to get into that late game we like?

If we want to race, how about picking up that card we dismissed a long time ago: Goblin Guide?
The land denial plan appears not to be as amazing as it used to be, perhaps making guide a viable option again.
Theres also less Nacatls around to block it.
Stoneforge/Mother of Runes/Snapcaster/Vendilion Clique/Noble Hierarch/Bob/Pridemage/Early Ooze/Thalia.. they're either not going to block it, or we don't mind it getting blocked.

It makes our Vial faster aswell since it now has something to do at 1 counter.
It plays very well with Piledriver, so we might need to up that count again. It does want some red mana, so it's probably better in decks without ports (which makes sense since it's a bit bad in mana-denial anyways).

It likes Chieftain better than Warchief.
And it's still horrible against Brainstorm, but should we care a lot about that?

On the other hand, if we go for the stabilize quickly, then win the late game plan, we are pretty much as far as we can get already I suppose. Vials, slow as they may seem, are essential to winning a lategame. We can't cut any Ringleaders ofcourse, and 2 SGC + Kiki seems good too. I do think we're better off with Tarfire or Lightning Bolt in this setup. Mogg Fanatic is a bit quicker, but if we aren't going to win on turn 4, lets make sure we do on turn 6? (The fanatic just doesn't kill Stoneforge Mystic on his own, which is a biggy).
I also think the big manacost Tuktuk Scrapper is essential to this gameplan. You don't just want to delay their equipments, you just want to delay them enough to get tools to kill em.
Scatmans list appears to be very well suited for this type of gameplay.

As for the Lightningspeed build, perhaps something like this?

4 Goblin Guide
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Warchief
1 Warren Instigator

4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

2 Stingscourger
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyrokinesis

4 Aether Vial

4 Wasteland
18 Mountains

I'm not certain about this list, but it might spark some ideas?
Lightning Bolt over Tarfire because finishing the game with burn might happen more often if there's less focus on card advantage wins. But if your last card happens to be a matron you can still fetch Ringleader with it.

The big downside: If they do happen to get a batterskull down through your burn/bounce/race, you're in a load of trouble.

As for the slower approach:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki
2 Tuktuk Scrapper

2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Tarfire
2 Stingscourger
1 Pyrokinesis

4 Aether Vial

4 Wasteland
18 Mountains

This list has higher manacosts, but also more manacheaters so I've decided to keep the same landcount. It's a lot like, if not exactly like some of the lists posted in the past month.

[Mantis]

The focus has been on cheating goblins into play for so long that we're ignoring that a T1 Lackey/Vial isn't enough anymore. Lackey is to too answerable (RUG plays counter and Bolt, Stoneblade plays Swords and counters, Maverick plays Mom and Swords). Vial is too slow (T4 Matron into T5 Ringleader isn't good enough against T1 Delver or T2 Stoneforge). And mostly, since we're so focused on getting cheaters into play early, we've allowed the mana curve to get outrageously high. Chieftain, Warchief, Sharpshooter, Tuktuk all have outrageous CMCs for their power level. That's not a problem if they're cheated into play, but since Lackey is connecting less you're more often stuck with them in hand. Since their CMC is so high going the Vial route is extremely slow. A T5 Ringleader isn't going to do much good against T1 Delver.

Instead of focusing on cheating goblins into play, I believe we need to lower our mana curve. We need to run more 1 and 2 drops and free spells (Pyrokinesis).

I've been goldfishing this build this weekend, and it seems promising...

Creature (31)
1x Stingscourger
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Warren Instigator

11x Mountain
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland
2x Scalding Tarn

2x Tarfire
2x Pyrokinesis

4x AEther Vial

The obvious change is the inclusion of a set of Mogg Fanatic. I'm trying out Fanatic because he's a great answer to many of the threats in the format, he enables a play of T1 Vial into T2 Fanatic>Gempalm. He's also an excellent defensive play of T1 Fantaic>T2 Winstigator. Tarfire and Gempalm back him up. He's great to pitch to Pyrokinesis, and he's a good body on the field to be bulked up by Chieftain and Piledriver.

Really it seems like we need T1 plays that set up our gameplan but aren't just Vial/Lackey, and I thing Fanatic does that.
Mogg Fanatic is absolutely the correct route. He chumps Jitte and Batterskull and kills a ton of creatures or he can make for a pretty decent clock with Goblin Chieftain. Furthermore he makes Incinerator worthwhile again, since you he adds 2 damage to Incinerator, thereby enabling the killing of Goyf and Knight. The most important thing he does is buy time to get you into the lategame where Siege Gang and Ringleader take over. You are absolutely correct in your analysis and running less than 3 Fanatics is assuredly wrong in current Goblins list. Your list is remarkably close to what I have come up with, but I run Lightning Bolt, 22 land and some other minor differences such as SGC #3 instead of Kiki, no Piledriver or Stingscourger, only 3 Fanatic and 4 Gempalms. Then I am also an avid supporter of running a ton of combo hate in the sideboard, since the maindeck is pretty much tweaked to beat all of the major players anyway and there really isn't much to board in that actually improves the other matchups by a decent percentage.

Also, I really don't feel the sentiment that Goblins has no buisiness in todays metagame, I have been slaughtering Maverick, Delver decks and BUG. Esperblade has given me some troubles because that deck is just crazy good and I think it gives every deck in the current metagame troubles.

[(nameless one)]

Want to share your list Mantis?

Also, Esperblade w/ Lingering Souls right? What about Goblin Sharpshooter?

[ScatmanX]

Played today.
Beat Deadguy, Dredge, Maverick, ID,ID, and lost a sad game 3 agains Mav on top 8. Played for 5-8 and won against Maverick again.
Ran 20 lands, and it was never an issue. 2 cards included were Warchief and Skirk Prospector, both awesome so many times. Never got land screwed, and got flooded twice, once costing me the game (top8).
Will write a report tomorrow or the dey after, since I made quite some different decisions than usual.

[Humphrey]

haha, funny guys. I just came here to post my results of the latest testings i had and that I think Fanatic is a great choice at the moment. Although my old list could beat the Sfm-less Maverick already, the Fanatics improve the matchup. I added a third Pyrokinesis to my main too, because you want one in your opening hand to clear the board. Its also good against Souls Token.
But the Esper Matchup gives me headaches, it runs so much discard and removal, coupled with SFM-Jitte and Souls. Biggest problem here of course the Jitte, same as in Maverick. I feel Tuktuk is to clunky, I might try 2 Needles in the board again. Its good against Equipment and Deed (BUG-Control), the most troublesome cards against us.

I feel the correct gameplan is to survive the earlygame via enough removal and win mid to lategame with cardadvantage, if the broken Lackey into madness opening fails.

Im not sure about Gempalm Incinerator, even with Fanatics I find it to slow and conditional. Also, I dont know what to cut in my list. Im currently testing Sharpshooter again. Seems good against token and synergizes with Fanatics and Kinesis.

My current approach on the list:
---21 lands---
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
6 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
--Core--
-2 Goblin Piledriver
-1 Goblin Warchief
--Flex--
3 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Instigator
1 Tarfire
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Mogg War Marshal

SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 1 Anarchy
SB: 2 Pithing Needle


Usually I want the B-Splash to have access to Perish. But since I added the Kinesis and Fanatics im not sure i still need them. Tomorrow Ill test against Canadian to see if Perish is better (Mongoose, Goyf) or its better to be Stifleproof. Since Belcher is getting better results, it might be better to have Mindbreak Trap over Chalice. Maybe 2-2 Split

[wert]

I had been using the various ideas of others here to certain degrees of success. Mogg Fanatic and 20 lands are a couple of ideas that worked. I noticed jrw1985 using it a few pages back and having good feedback, I gave it a try. Although I have not gone as far as adding 4 of them, I feel it should be given due consideration in every goblin deck now. Basically, I replaced MVM with Fanatic.

Cheating goblins has been one of the pillars of the goblin deck, and I still think it is.
It makes playing with less lands(20) more workable and helps with otherwise poor opening hands. I had been using 20 lands for a while and I think it is workable as long as you played 3-4 WI.

The list I am currently playing with
//Lands
16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
//Goblins
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Warren Instigator
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Piledriver
//Removal
2 Tarfire
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Pyrokinesis
//Artifact
4 AEther Vial
1 Basilisk Collar

SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 2 Anarchy
SB: 1 Stingscourger
SB: 1 Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
Anyone else playing with Basilisk Collar? Sometimes it is a show stopper but it can also be a dead card and even when it isn't a loss of tempo.

[Humphrey]

I dont think cutting Warchiefs and Piledrivers completely is the right move, especially with the lowered land count. A Warchief, followed by Matron, Piledriver still steals some games. Also Piledriver works as kind of removal.

And whats with Kiki nowadays. In the old thread we already dismissed Kiki because SGC is the better 5-drop most of the times. Kiki is fun, but shouldnt be played.

[wert]

For me, Kiki-Jiki is a game-changer. It can alter the board state by itself and its versatility that comes with matron tutoring, combined with instant speed vialing can be very powerful. It catchs the the unwary out and deceived opponent into thinking we have something when we don't.

With Kiki-Jiki, comes silver bullets. It is something that if went unanswered, would almost certainly win the game. But I feel it is the most difficult card to play in the deck(even more than matron), timing and target can make a world of difference.

With a matron, we can tutor up all the rest.

Need to finish? Copy Piledriver, chieftain.
Need blockers? MVM
Need artifact solution? Scapper, Tinker
Need some board advantage? Sharpshooter.

About PileDriver, I feel it should be played. At the very least as a tutorable 1-of, but I think the time has passed for it to be 4-of. I don't know the right number, but I suppose it would depends on the composition of the other goblins. So, I guess the right number should be anywhere from 1-3.

I had ditched Warchiefs totally, simply I feel they are not useful to be a 4-of and its effect don't justified playing just 1. I had tried played 2-2 spilt with Chieftain but I don't think it worked out. So, I chose to go in favour of Chieftains.

[Yuri8]

Well, I tried to tell you that fanatic is very good for about 3 months and finally you approved them.

Kiki-jiki: if you really want to play him you need winstigator (3-4) and even then he was more than anything else just overkill. Would rather play 2 sgc than 1-1 split and three 5cmc creatures are too much. I myself play only one sgc on that slot...

Gempalm: for me he is undisputable 4-of, maybe because I play 4 mwm, compared to pyrokinesis, he can't be forced - which results in big card disadvantage. Pyrokinesis is good but aganist maverick it's most of time 2 for 2 trade - too situational (in MD) for my taste...

[GoboLord]

For those who are struggling with Esperblade, I've found that a combination of the following cards is quite good way to deal with them:

3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Porspector
3 Sulfuric Viórtex

I was playtesting with a friend of mine when we noticed that artifact hate isn't effective against Batterskull. This is so true. I can't think of a situation when Tuktuk (or SHattering SPree) actually hit Batterskull, this is almost impossible since they can easily keep 3 mana (which are likely 3 basiclands) untapped to return Batterskull when needed. Batterskull is then quickly played from hand again (absolutely possible with 5 mana.). The point is: the most effective way to deal with Batterskull is to nuke SFM before the nasty Germ-Token appears. However, PREVENTING B.Skull isn't possible in like 50% of the cases. So how do we deal with it? Chumpblocking! What really annoys me is LIFELINK. We can indeed "chumpblock for months" (as Ruffy suggested) but we oftentimes scoop when their lifetotal is above 30. The thing is we can't even attack unless one swing deals more than 8 dmg to their lifetotals.
So how do we deal with Vigiliance + Lifelink? The answer is: Sulfuric Vortex. This thing turn Batterskull into a Stone Golem (so hairy, it's scary)

Tuktuk deals with Jitte.
Skirk Prospector and Siege-Gang can handle Jitte too.
Sharpshooter counters Lingering Souls.
Mogg War Marshal helps you with chumpblocking B.Skull.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
ABout Mogg Fanatic:
Please guys, try him out and write reports that focus on HIS PERFORMANCE IN DETAIL. It's only my intuition telling me that he isn't too good, but I'd be glad to learn that my intuition is wrong.

[PedroFilipe92]

I used to run 2-3 Mogg Fanatis to face off threats like Mother of Runes, Grim, Vendillion, Dregdge,etc.
But then i realise that he isn´t good enough.
Now i run 4 Tarfire + 3 Gempalm and they do their work very good, and i think that my deck becomes much more consistent without the moggs.

The mogg is particulary good against dredge, but i also can Tarfire my gobs to remove their bridges, so no big deal.

[jrw1985]

I dont think cutting Warchiefs and Piledrivers completely is the right move, especially with the lowered land count. A Warchief, followed by Matron, Piledriver still steals some games. Also Piledriver works as kind of removal.

And whats with Kiki nowadays. In the old thread we already dismissed Kiki because SGC is the better 5-drop most of the times. Kiki is fun, but shouldnt be played.

Kiki's being played because Winstigator is being played, and Winstigator>Matron>kiki>Matron>GoblinX is pretty fucking good. As good as Winstigator>Matron>SGC? It's certainly more flexible.

[markbris]

Played today.
Beat Deadguy, Dredge, Maverick, ID,ID, and lost a sad game 3 agains Mav on top 8. Played for 5-8 and won against Maverick again.
Ran 20 lands, and it was never an issue. 2 cards included were Warchief and Skirk Prospector, both awesome so many times. Never got land screwed, and got flooded twice, once costing me the game (top8).
Will write a report tomorrow or the dey after, since I made quite some different decisions than usual.

Eagerly awaiting this

[BigBopper]

The recent printed cards (Scavenging Ooze, Sigarda-Angel of Hope) make Maverick even more scary. So I think in times of big creatures it's worth to splash black again-warren weirding is a tutorable one-off that can replace a stingscourger and Perish is a post-board winner lategame vs. Savannah based decks.
I also believe cheating creatures into play is essential in this deck. And when lackey and WInstigator don't connect, descendant's path is a way to get them to participate.
I will at least try a double splash like in misstep times and see what we can do.
Maybe I post a decklist later, but I wouldn't drop WInstigator-just reduce them to two...

[jrw1985]

The recent printed cards (Scavenging Ooze, Sigarda-Angel of Hope) make Maverick even more scary. So I think in times of big creatures it's worth to splash black again-warren weirding is a tutorable one-off that can replace a stingscourger and Perish is a post-board winner lategame vs. Savannah based decks.
I also believe cheating creatures into play is essential in this deck. And when lackey and WInstigator don't connect, descendant's path is a way to get them to participate.
I will at least try a double splash like in misstep times and see what we can do.
Maybe I post a decklist later, but I wouldn't drop WInstigator-just reduce them to two...

I just remembered that Descendant's Path costs only G2, not GG1. That's pretty good. Maybe even good enough to make Squee, Goblin Nabob playable again.

My only real worry about the playability of Descendant's Path is that it has a 1 turn lag. This lag also makes Wort pretty unplayable, but that's because Wort is a removal-eating creature. Path is much more difficult to answer, so it might actually stick around to be relevant. I'm gonna brew a list I think.

[Mantis]

Here is my list
18 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Warren Instigator
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
4 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Siege Gang Commander

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Gempalm Incinerator

I played in a team tournament today, we had teams of 3 and each of the members had to play a random opponent of the other team. I went 4-0-1, but unfortunately my teammates went 1-3-1 and 3-2 so we got 8 points with 2-1-2 in the end. Fairly disappointing, but at least my results were good.
I forgot a couple of details and my memory might be incorrect at some places but I;ll give a shot at a tournament report anyway.

Match 1 against Canadian Threshold
Game 1: he played a Ponder, I played a Vial. He followed that up with Delver and I killed it with Fanatic. After that he didn't find any other threats and burned some of my guys and Stifled some of my Vial activations, but eventually I got a Matron into Ringleader and that pretty much sealed the deal.
Game 2: He FoWed my Vial and then played a Goyf. I was stuck on two land and decided to double Bolt it during his upkeep on turn 3 or 4 I believe as the Goyf was 3/4 already. This was a pretty big gamble but I assumed he did not have Daze as he would otherwise just Daze my Vial and he already played a FoW. Fortunately my second Bolt resolved. I was stuck on 2 lands for quite some time and was unable to do anything as I had all 3 or more cmc goblins, however he could not find threats. Luckily, the cycling of Gempalm helped me out and I got managed to play Matron and then some Ringleaders and won fairly easily.

Match 2 against BG Pox with Tombstalker, Smallpox, Confidant and Death's Shadow (weird brew).
Game 1: I saw his teammate played Affinity and they were still fairly young kids. I therefore assumed he was most likely on some sort of budget aggro deck. That made me keep a hand of 3 Mountain, Lightning Bolt, Matron and 2 higher cmc goblins. This proved to be a mistake and I fell down to 2 Smallpox where he took out my topdecked Lackey. He followed that up with Bitterblossom and then Liliana. Meanwhile, the 2 Smallpox screwed me out of the game.
Game 2: I'm not really sure what happened here, but I had a Vial and rode the mana advantage to the win.
Game 3: he has to mulligan and gets a turn 1 Confidant with Chrome Mox. Meanwhile I have Vial again, but I can't touch the Confidant for a while. He flips a Tombstalker, which obviously helps me out a lot. He gets rid of the Confidant with either chumping or a Smallpox. Eventually I get a Siege Gang into play and burn him out with Siege Gang and Bolt while facing a board containing Tombstalker and a 4/4 Death's Shadow.

Match 3 against UB Zombies. An awesome brew with Carrion Feeder, Geralf's Messenger, the new zombie lord, Dark Confidant, Brainstorm and Hymn to Tourach.
Game 1: He starts off fairly aggressively with a Carrion Feeder which he sacs the guys I try to remove to. He gets me down to 7 before I manage to stabilize. I get a Matron, a Fanatic and a Warren Instigator into play and can cycle a Gempalm to kill his Geralf and then his Zombie lord. I keep chumping the Carrion Feeder and get a Ringleader and Siege Gang down, eventually he crumbles to my card advantage.
Game 2: I have to mulligan. He manages to remove my Lackey with Smother and gets down a turn 3 Confidant. I get stuck on mana and he gets down a second Confidant. I can't kill either and he overwhelms me with card advantage and Hymn to Tourach. My only hope was to burn him out of the game but he kills me when he's on 4 life and I wasted all my burn.
Game 3: This was a really broken and satisfying game. I get down a turn 1 Lackey, he does nothing on turn 1 and I get Siege Gang into play. He then lays down a Confidant which I kill with a Gempalm. Turn 3 I get Chieftain and he scoops.

Match 4: against UR control with 3 or 4 Cliques, Counterspell, Fire/Ice, Vedalken Shackles, Teferi, Jace etc.
Game 1: We play a long war of attrition where he plays 2 Cliques, Teferi and a Jace which I all manage to kill with Fanatics and Bolts. In the end I am on 4 Mountain, a Vial with 4 counters and a Siege Gang in hand, while he has 0 cards in hand, and 4 or 5 lands. I have this right? Wrong, he topdecks his third Vendilion Clique. Very unfortunate for me, he takes Siege Gang and I proceed to draw Mountain and Mountain. He topdecks a Snapcaster Mage and after a third land I just lost. Unbelievable.. But I was convinced I could kill him in the other 2 games.
Game 2: I board out my Warren Instigator as he has Spell Snare, Lightning Bolt and Fire/Ice. I get down Fanatic, Ringleader and a Chieftain. He is on 4 cards and with 5 lands untapped. I decide not to attack as I'm afraid of Teferi. He has it and plays it EOT, dodged a bullet there. Eventually I overwhelm him on card advantage and my 6 REB effects really helped out here as all of his threats are blue.
Game 3: I have to mulligan and receive a keepable hand with Lackey or Vial. I can't really get anything going. I topdeck 3 Ringleaders and 3 Siege Gangs and they just sat there in my hand. Eventually I get down a Ringleader and end up on 8 cards. I decide to discard one of my Siege Gangs as I had 2 others in hand anyway, this proved to be a crucial mistake. He gets down a Vedalken Shackles, which I have no answer to as I did not board in my Tuktuk not expecting an artifact. He then proceeds to counter my Siege Gangs and I really regret discarding the third. After a while my 3 Siege Gangs and 3 Ringleaders are in my graveyard and he controls the 4th Ringleader. It gets killed as well somehow and there are no creatures on board while he controls a Shackles. Meanwhile time is running out and I see no way to win the game as I have no means of overwhelming the board anymore. I decide to opt for drawing and we do in fact draw.

Match 5 against Hive Mind.
Game 1: I saw him play Hive Mind earlier and made a mental note. I mulligan a keepable hand of 2 Mountain, Vial, Fanatic, Matron, Gempalm and SGC because I know it will not be enough against him. My second hand contains 1 Mountain, 2 Lackeys, Matron, Ringleader and Instigator. This seems keepable. I manage to turn 4 kill him while he only plays a Grim Monolith.
Game 2: I am prepared with my 6 REBs and Stingscourger. I have a hand of Lackey, Lackey, Vial, REB, Matron, Chieftain and Instigator. He leads with Island and passes. I was really unsure what to do. After a while, I figure my best shot is to lead with Lackey. He plays Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, Hive Mind and Slaughter Pact. Had I lead with the Vial or kept my mana open for REB or if he would Show and Tell Emrakul I could have won but alas, this was the worst that could happen. I gambled and lost.
Game 3: I mull to 6, he mulls to 5. I lead with Vial. I succesfully manage to REB his first Show and Tell on turn 2. But he has an Intuition into Show and Tell for a second try. I don't have a second REB and we both lay down a face down card. I bet you know how this one ends. Yes, I have the Matron, search up my Stingscourger and return his Emrakul. After that, I quickly killed him. Sweet, I beat our worst matchup! Although Dredge might be a little worse for my current build...

I end 4-0-1, a pretty solid record I'd say and in a normal tournament I would have been able to play for the prizes, but unfortunately not now. I think this build is pretty much perfect right now. The only thing I might change next time is play 4 Tower of the Magistrate in the sideboard to switch with Wastelands against Maverick and Esperblade to have a way to dispatch of their germ tokens :).

[Planeswalker]

Hey fellas! Ive been lurking around this forum for quite some time now but just signed up today. Im a big Goblin fan and Ive also been playing this deck for a few ages.

I realy like the ideas of Mogg Fanatic, Goblin Guide and Skirp Prospector and I think that im going to test these guys again.

Kiki-Jiki is just awesome and not only a over-kill or win-more card. It has an insane impact on the board position. Hes just able to pull important stuff off and all you need is just one or two other Goblins. Matron tutor, Stingscourger bounce, Piledriver kill, Chieftain pump, Ringleader advantage, Warren doublestrike lakey, Tuktuk artifact hate....

I like GoboLords thoughts about Sulfuric Vortex and I think that hes right. It realy helps vs lifelink crap and can somtetimes even kill an oponnent if the board is stalled.


I went to a bigger Legacy event here in Germany yesterday with about ~140 players and decided to play my MonoR Goblins. I went 3-3 before i dropped out.

Here are my list and a litle tournament report from the few notes took.

Maindeck:

16x Mountain
4x Wasteland

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Warren Instigator
4x Goblin Piledriver
2x Stingscourger
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
2x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
1x Siege-Gang Commder
1x Kiki-Jiki Mirrorbreaker

2x Tarfire
2x Pyrokinesis

4x Aether Vial

Sideboard:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Pyrokinesis
1x Stingscourger
3x ReB


Explanations to the Main:

20 Lands in MonoR is just the right number I think. Screw/Flood doesnt happen that to often.
4 Piledriver cauz I just love that dude and would never cut this explosive bomb. He just enables so many kills and often just works as a removal for a big KotR or something.
2 Stingscourger cauz of the bounce for the Reanimator or Sneak&Show creatures (except Progenitus ofc).
1 Sharpshooter for Noble H´s, Lingering Souls and other common stuff.
2 Tarfire / 2 Pyrokinesis. You get Tarfire from Ringleader and you can tutor for it if needed. The 2 damage are usually enough and I really dont miss the third damage from a Lightning Bolt very often. It kills a T1 Mother or whatever would chump / block your Lackey / Instigator. Pyrokinesis is there for either bigger stuff like KotR / Goyf / Ooze or for mass removal against Noble H´s, Lingering Souls etc.

Sideboard:

I actually wanted to play Mindbreak Traps but mine didnt arrive in time (bought from the internet) and I also missed another TukTuk Scrapper.

4 Chalice vs Combo and Burn
4 LotV against Dredge, Reanimator, Loam etc. Ive decided to play LotV after some thinking and not a split of Relics and Crypts. The problem is that you sometimes have to Mull 1-3 times to get it and if you draw it its a dead card. But you keep the graveyard clean from the very beginning and you dont get it again with Ringleader. Relics / Crypts can be countered, gripped, chaliced and whatever and once you used it they can just refill.
1 Pyrokinesis against Maverick, Tribals and Lingering Souls.
1 Stingscourger vs Reanimator
3 ReB vs Chain of Vapor / Echoing Truth on Leyline and Show&Tell.

Soooo........

I did a lot of testing and felt quite comfortable with my list cauz Ive found it to be very solid. I had no idea what the meta was going to be but I expected a lot of Maverick & Delver and my Goblins did very very good against those while testing but..... lets see:


1st Match against B/W Planeswalker, Lingering Soul controll stuff:

G1 He began and held his 7 while I mulled to 5 holding a hand with Mountain, Wasteland, Lackey, Ringleader, Matron. He begins dropping a swamp n go. I draw a mountain play the one from my opening hand, lackey and go. He dropped Marsh Flats fetching a Plains and goes with Chrome mox removing Hymn to tourach followed by a Liliana of the Vail which let me sac my Lackey (dumb bitch!). The following turns I drew dead and couldnt manage to get anything on the board while he disrupts my hand and beats me with Lingering Soul token. Sorin joins the party and i scoop the following turns.

I looked at my SB and noticed i had nothing but a Pyrokinesis which I then boarded for 1 Stingscourger.

G2 I hold an average hand an start the game with Mountain, Lackey go. He dropped Plains, go. I knew what was coming and as I was going to attack he StP my Lackey. I couldnt match to get anything goin again cauz of that damn Liliana and discard while he got 4 flying Spirits. My Sharshooter got StP and i didnt draw any of my 3 Pyrokinesis while the Spirits beat me to one life. I draw and scoop.

I was really pissed aftrer that match...

0-1

2nd Match Burn

G1 I mulled to 6 and held a hand with 1 Mountain, 2 Lackey, 1 Matron, 1 Instigator, 1 Chiftain. He begins with Mountain Chain Lightning. Still pissed from the 1st game my mood became even worse.. I play Mountain, Lackey, go. In his turn he plays Mountain, Hellspark and attacks for 3. I attack and having no other land I chose to drop the Instigator with Lackey. In his turn he chose to burn me for 3 and I go to 11. I attack bringing in Chieftain with Firststrike followed by Matron tutoring Kiki-Jiki who enters the board with the Lackey hit. He again burns me for 3 and I eot copy Chieftain. In my turn copy Chieftain again and kill.

I board 4 Chalice for 2 Stingscourger, 1 TukTuk, 1 Sharpshooter.

G2 He begins with Mountain suspend Rift Bolt. I held an average 7 and played Mountain, Vial, go. He burns me for 3 and plays another Mountain. My turn Vial goes to 1, Mountain, Instigator go. He burns my Instigator, drops a Mountain and attacks with a Hellspark. I eot Lackey. In my turn Vial ticks up, drop Mountain, play Chieftain and attack dropping another Chieftain I just drew. He plays a Mountain burns me for 3 and passes. With no Fuel on the Hand left I attacked. He tapped 3 and played Volcanic Fallout. I was confused and said "Ok, but why?". He somehow was the opinion that the Fallout would make a Chieftain temporally lose the +1/+1 ability and my Goblins therefor had to die. I called a judge who explained to him that he was wrong and that all he did by playing the Fallout simply just were 2 damage to all of my Goblins 3/3 Goblins. After that he scoops.

1-1

3rd Match Punishing Maverick

G1 I held an average 7 not knowing what I was going to play against. He begins with Savannah followed by a Mother of Runes and I thought "Aight". On my turn I play a Mountain and Tarfire the old Lady. He drops Heath, fetches another Savannah and plays a Zenith for 1 bringing a Noble Hierarch. My turn was Mountain, Instigator, go. He StP my Instigator, dropped a Land, played a Noble H and swung for 2. I couldnt get much going for the rest of the game cauz of StP and a exalted flying Elspeth token deals some sick damage. Scoop.

I board Pyrokinesis for 1 Piledriver and wished for that second TukTuk eventhough I havent seen a Stoneforge or any equipments the 1st game.

G2 My hand was the bomb. Me on the play it was Mountain, Lackey, go. All he had was Grove giving me 1 life and him a Noble H. I Pyro the Noble and attack bringing in a Matron that looked for Kiki-Jiki after that I play Mountain and Instigator, pass. He drops a Plains and gives me 1 life again bringing him an Ooze. I kill the Ooze and go big with attack into Kiki-Jiki, copy Matron searching a Commander who hits the field followed by a Piledriver. He scoops. Thats how its done bitches! :D

G3 Was really fucked up. I managed to put early preassure on him and got him down to 10 very quick. But he had 3 StP and a Ooze that got him about 6 Life followed by Elspeth and a Stoneforge into Jitte. My deck meanwhile screwed me hard after the first couple of turns giving me waaaaay too much lands and my 2 Ringleaders were fucked up aswell. The 1st gave me a single Piledriver and the 2nd gave me 2 Lackeys!!! Facing down an 8/8 Ooze with a 2 counter Jitte on it supported by an Elspeth, a Mother of Runes and a Pridemage I scoop on 12 Life.

I whupped Maverick all day in testing but it just had to happen that I lose to the deck in a tournament game... Having no more chance of hitting T8 i was realy pissed...

1-2

4th Match RUG Delver

G1 I hold a good 7 and he begins with Scalding Tarn, go. I was quite certain of him playing either Delver or Sneak&Show. I had to choose between playing a lackey, a vial or nothing. I chose to play the Lackey cauz I dindt want my Vial to get dazed and the Lackey would eat a bolt no matter which turn I would have played him (allthough I hoped he would force it). He eot fetches Volcanic and Bolts as I expected. In his turn he plays Tropical and Delver leaving the Volcanic open. I play Mountain Tarfire Delver and cauz that worked I followed with Vial which got dazed! He plays another Delver, pass. I drop a Mountain playing a Piledriver who gets forced ("Ok wierd" was what I thought on that play). Delver didnt flip and he attacked for one. After that he played Ponder which gave him another Tropical followed by a Goyf (6/7!!). In my turn I cast a Piledriver who again gets forced (lol), pass. Delver didnt flip and he attacks for 7 dropping me down to 12. I play a Mountain and cast Stingscourger, bounce got stifled pass. Delver flipped showing me a Force. He attacked with both and Stingscourger chumped Goyf. I got to 9. In my turn I play a Ringleader while he just had 1 card (force) in hand. Ringleader gave me Piledriver and Lackey, pass. He again attacks with both. I block and cast Pyrokinesis removing Lackey, Force removing Spellpierce, Pyrokinesis removing Piledriver (lol). Ringleader and Goyf die while I take 3 again and go down to 6. I play Stingscourger off the Top and bounce Delver. In his turn he plays his Delver and passes. I pay echo, pass. Delver did not flip, pass. Tarfire Delver, attack with Stingssourger who got burned. He draws and passes. With having nothing else I cast TukTuk Scrapper and pass. He drew dead for the rest of the game and TukTuk + Lackey kill him.

I board 2 Surgical for 1 TukTuk and 1 Sharpshooter

G2 He begins Volcanic, pass. I played Mountain, go. He eot Brainstormed. On his turn he played a Fetchland, Delver and a Ponder. I again drop a Mountain and go. Delver flipped showing me another Ponder. Tarfire on Delver got countered. He played Ponder and attacked for 3. After that Fetchland, Nimble M, pass. I play Wasteland, Vial pass. He plays a Fetchland goes for ******** and hits me for 6. Vial ticks up and I play a Matron for Tarfire. He attacks and I chump Nimble and drop to 8. On my turn Vial ticks up, I Wasteland his only Volcanic and risk to Surgical it to prevent me from Burn. I see that he only has a Fetchland in his hand but still a Taiga in his deck (sucks!). I Tarfire his Delver and cast a Lackey, pass. He attacks I chump and eot Vial a Instigator into play. On my turn Vial goes up to 3 and in comes a Chieftain. I risk to attack and the Instigator Firststrikes another Chieftain into play hitting him for a total of 8 and he goes to 10, pass. Nimble chose not to attack and I kill him the following Turns.

Allmost every game I tested like Delver went kinda like those here. They manage to put pressure on you and they handle your early threats with Counter + Burn but once it comes to mid-game you are able to stabilise and turn the tide.

2-2

5th match TES

I knew what he was playing cauz one my friends who played the same deck scouted him. The matchup sucks and I didnt have my Mindbreaktraps but I allready gave up on my luck that day anyway. Did I mention that I never win a die roll? However...
I mulled to 6 six because my first hand was way too slow. My 6 were the best possible but I had no land at all. In my "yeah whatever mood" Ive decided to keep since the Matchup sucked anyway and that even more with every card less in hand. Well it came what had to come... No land in 4 turns and he kills me.

I board 4 Vial 1 TukTuk 1 Sharpshooter vs 4 CotV and 2 Surgical

G1 I hold a solid hand including a Chalice. He didnt know what I was playing so far. I decided to go with Mountain, Vial and keep the Chalice for the next turn hoping that he cant go off on his 1st. He plays Gemstone pass. Vial goes up, Mountain Chalice for 1. In response Brainstorm and I pass the Turn. He plays another Gemstone and calls the judge cauz he had a question regarding the Chalice (I knew that he was going to ask for Shattering Spree and replicate but Ive decided not to say anything). So the judge came answered his question and he Burning Wished for it in his turn and passed. I eot Vial a Lackey in. Vial ticks up play an Instigator and Lackey attacks and drops Kiki-Jiki. I then play a Chalice for 0 to make sure that he has to pay all his 3 mana (in case he had another land) to get rid of both. As I expected he had a 3rd land and destroyed both of my Chalice. Eot I Vial a Piledriver in and copy it with Kiki-Jiki. I play another Piledriver, copy and kill! :D
I was happy while the TES player (a strange guy anyway) was pissed this time.

G3 He begins with Gemstone and Ponder. I drop Mountain, Vial and Chalice for 0, pass. He plays anonter Gemstone, Brainstorm, pass. I tick Vial up drop a Mountain, play Instigator and pass the turn. He wishes for Spree and passes the turn. Vial ticks up, Wasteland, destroys one Gemstone. Instigator attacks 1st hit Kiki-Jiki second Matron into Piledriver, pass. He destorys Chalice but cant go off with no other Land and i eot Vial and copy Piledriver. Kill next turn. Yeah bitches :D

3-2

6th Match Smallpox

Both games I had to mulligan, had bad hands, had to discard, had to sacrifie and got beaten by Factories. Sucked big time!!!

3-3

I then dropped cauz I was pissed as hell and 2 of my 3 buddies dropped out aswell.

Overall the list Ive played is very solid. Even though it sometimes srewed me in the tournament it allmost never screwed me in testing. The match I lost to Maverick was simply bad luck and I feel that if I would have played on the top tables where more Mavericks and RUGs were around things could have gone different.

Hope you enjoyed my post : )

[Avatara]

I have the feeling that more (and better) direct damage is key to survival for goblins. Red is very popular (a lot of decks are splashing it) right now and that is for a reason...

Sound kinda stupid, to not follow this trend as well, considering that goblins is a red deck and doesn't need to splash for it.

[BigBopper]

Here is what I was thinking of-maybe it needs some fixing but on first look it seems fine:

Core (20):
4x Wasteland
4x Vial
4x Lackey
4x Matron
4x Ringleader
Manabase (18):
8x Red Fetch
2x Taiga
2x Badlands
6x Mountain
Removal (8):
3x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Stingscourger
1x Warren Weirding
2x Tarfire
1x Pyrokinesis
Other (14):
4x Goblin Chieftain
2x WInstigator
1x Goblin Piledriver
1x Tuktuk Scrapper/TSH
1x Kiki-Jiki
2x SCG
3x Dechant's Path

Sums up to 8 Non-goblin cards, which is exactly as much, as during Misstep times.
Sideboard (15):
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Chalice of the Void
2x MBT
1x TSH
1x Sharpshooter
1x Pyrokinesis
2x Perish
I also have to check the manabase for this setup, but generally this list should win all kinds of creature based decks and the SB should kill combo. If burn finds less play the CotV could become Pyroblasts.
Any thoughts welcome!

[Planeswalker]

I have the feeling that more (and better) direct damage is key to survival for goblins. Red is very popular (a lot of decks are splashing it) right now and that is for a reason...

Sound kinda stupid, to not follow this trend as well, considering that goblins is a red deck and doesn't need to splash for it.

Go and play Burn then. There isnt enough space for direct damage spells in our decks. And with the increase of Burn the number sideboard cards against it will increase aswell so going with the trend can be (as often) wrong and dumb.

[Avatara]

Go and play Burn then. There isnt enough space for direct damage spells in our decks. And with the increase of Burn the number sideboard cards against it will increase aswell so going with the trend can be (as often) wrong and dumb.
Sure, lets play the same list we have been playing for years... while other decks adjust to the meta game. Goblin decks that are successful right now are already playing more burn than we traditionally did. So there's no denying that it is effective.

[ScatmanX]

G2 My hand was the bomb. Me on the play it was Mountain, Lackey, go. All he had was Grove giving me 1 life and him a Noble H. I Pyro the Noble and attack bringing in a Matron that looked for Kiki-Jiki after that I play Mountain and Instigator, pass. He drops a Plains and gives me 1 life again bringing him an Ooze. I kill the Ooze and go big with attack into Kiki-Jiki, copy Matron searching a Commander who hits the field followed by a Piledriver. He scoops. Thats how its done bitches
Hi! Welcome to the Source!
I need to comment this. I see no reason to Knesis that Noble there. I mean, the better option is: attack. If he blocks, he loses Noble, and you play Instigator. You can Knesis the next guy he plays, whatever it is. If he have a removal, well, you connected with Lackey, and should win from there, since you'd still have Knesis. If he doesn't block, then you proceed as you did. I'd still hold Knesis even longer, because if he played ANY guy next turn, you'd Knesis them both.
Other than that, ruff luck on the Ringleaders...

EDIT: There's also this:

th Match RUG Delver

G1 I hold a good 7 and he begins with Scalding Tarn, go. I was quite certain of him playing either Delver or Sneak&Show. I had to choose between playing a lackey, a vial or nothing. I chose to play the Lackey cauz I dindt want my Vial to get dazed and the Lackey would eat a bolt no matter which turn I would have played him (allthough I hoped he would force it). He eot fetches Volcanic and Bolts as I expected. In his turn he plays Tropical and Delver leaving the Volcanic open. I play Mountain Tarfire Delver and cauz that worked I followed with Vial which got dazed! He plays another Delver, pass...
Imo, turn 1 you did right, but T2 you should have probably played Vial first. The deal is it could only be countered by FoW (or Pierce, but is less likely). Then, if it resolved, I'd pass, take 3 from Delver, and burn it next turn. You could afford the 2 damage, and playing around Daze once you had resolved Vial would be the right thing.
If he FoW'd your Vial, then burn the bitch down, because if he had another counter, he would have almost no more hand, and you could take care of Delver with other means.
ps: Still reading... =p

EDIT 2:

I have the feeling that more (and better) direct damage is key to survival for goblins. Red is very popular (a lot of decks are splashing it) right now and that is for a reason...

Sound kinda stupid, to not follow this trend as well, considering that goblins is a red deck and doesn't need to splash for it.
I thought that P. Fire/Grove could work here, specially with a green splash (made easier by Groove). Would really like if someone could test it.
Other than that, Sudden Shock seems sexy as hell.
@ Planeswalker: Saying someones idea is "wrong and dumb" before testing it is not a nice way to start things over here. You may be right, but there are better ways of saying it.

[Planeswalker]

@ Planeswalker: Saying someones idea is "wrong and dumb" before testing it is not a nice way to start things over here. You may be right, but there are better ways of saying it.

Hey there and thx for the welcome.

I didnt mean to call his idea dumb I was just calling going with the mainstream dumb but sorry anway your right here.

I realy feel like goblins needs a push but I dont think that Burn is the way to go. Grove + PF could still be something worth playing or at least testing but I fear that running 8-10 burn spells will hurt our main strategy too much.

I think that we have to hope for new cards to give us the push needed to be realy competitive again.

[Humphrey]

I dont know why you think that gobs isnt competitive at the moment. In testing a least I get good results. The Maverick matchup is very much in our favor, the Canadian matchup is pretty good, if you run low nonbasic count. The Esper matchup is not favored but winnable, dredge is good with fanatics main and enough gravehate in the board. Even combo is beatable unless they have the nuts, because ANT is very soft to GY hate.

I actually dont know what kind of goblin im missing, exept maybe slightly better ones that exist. Artifactremoval for 1R, Sharpshooter with Haste, Earwig Squads without Prowl. Those are the ones that are on my wishlist, but they arent needed.

[GoboLord]

3rd Match Punishing Maverick

G1 I held an average 7 not knowing what I was going to play against. He begins with Savannah followed by a Mother of Runes and I thought "Aight". On my turn I play a Mountain and Tarfire the old Lady. He drops Heath, fetches another Savannah and plays a Zenith for 1 bringing a Noble Hierarch. My turn was Mountain, Instigator, go. He StP my Instigator, dropped a Land, played a Noble H and swung for 2. I couldnt get much going for the rest of the game cauz of StP and a exalted flying Elspeth token deals some sick damage. Scoop.

I board Pyrokinesis for 1 Piledriver and wished for that second TukTuk eventhough I havent seen a Stoneforge or any equipments the 1st game.

G2 My hand was the bomb. Me on the play it was Mountain, Lackey, go. All he had was Grove giving me 1 life and him a Noble H. I Pyro the Noble and attack bringing in a Matron that looked for Kiki-Jiki after that I play Mountain and Instigator, pass. He drops a Plains and gives me 1 life again bringing him an Ooze. I kill the Ooze and go big with attack into Kiki-Jiki, copy Matron searching a Commander who hits the field followed by a Piledriver. He scoops. Thats how its done bitches! :D

G3 Was really fucked up. I managed to put early preassure on him and got him down to 10 very quick. But he had 3 StP and a Ooze that got him about 6 Life followed by Elspeth and a Stoneforge into Jitte. My deck meanwhile screwed me hard after the first couple of turns giving me waaaaay too much lands and my 2 Ringleaders were fucked up aswell. The 1st gave me a single Piledriver and the 2nd gave me 2 Lackeys!!! Facing down an 8/8 Ooze with a 2 counter Jitte on it supported by an Elspeth, a Mother of Runes and a Pridemage I scoop on 12 Life.


2 points of advice here:

(1) if you are on the draw against Maverick (no matter which kind; GW or GWr) you should side out Goblin Lackeys - all of them. They have quite a lot cards that answers him:
* StoP
* Punishing Fire
* Scavenging Ooze
* Tarmogoyf
* Noble Hierarch
* Dryad Arbor
* Mother of Runes
* Knight of reliquary

All of them are quite possible on turn 1/2.

(2) I don't know when you noticed that you were playing against the PUNISHING variant of Maverick, but you should certainly side in 4 Leylines here. Leylines don't just defuse their Grove-engine, but is also keeps Knights and Tarmogoyfs small and counters GSZ's reshuffle. At it's WORST, Leylines will trade 1:1 with one of their Pridemages, whereas they might sometimes even have to use a GSZ to find it (2:1 here).

I'm not sure wether Lackeys should be sided out even if you are on the play, but leaving them in SB when you are on the draw is absolutely the right move.



Sure, lets play the same list we have been playing for years... while other decks adjust to the meta game. Goblin decks that are successful right now are already playing more burn than we traditionally did. So there's no denying that it is effective.
Sceptical kitty is sceptical.
Would you like to show us a few examples before we can conclude that "there is no denying that it is effective"?
(Don't get me wrong, I'm always in favor of more removal/burn, but I doubt that you are right here)

[Humphrey]

Gobolord, I absolutely dont agree with your advice here. Lackey is absolutely useful in this matchup, since they (GW) only run 4 STP to succesfully handle our little fellow. You can just clear the way with Pyrokinesis or other removal ftw. (like he did ;))
I had a lot of plays where they lead with Noble or GSZ into 3/3 Knight, just to have them killed and Lackey takes the game. If youre on the play its even better (Fanatic ftw)

Also GSZ never hits the grave, Leyline is useless.

Avatara is right, the lists (at least mine:D) runs more removal than before. For a long time it was 4-5 removal (4 Incinerator+Weirdings) where now its 2-4 Incinerator+2Kinesis+2Tarfire/Bolt+XFanatics

[Avatara]

Sceptical kitty is sceptical.
Would you like to show us a few examples before we can conclude that "there is no denying that it is effective"?
(Don't get me wrong, I'm always in favor of more removal/burn, but I doubt that you are right here)

Well the classic lists only used to run 4 Gempalm Incinerators. Today we often run 2 Pyrokinesis, 2 Tarfires or Bolts, 1 Stingscourger and 3 Gempalm Incinerators or any combination of those cards. That's a 100% increase in spot removal/direct damage cards. That's not even counting cards like Goblin Sharpshooter whom are also repeatable removal cards in a way.

[lordofthepit]

Leylines don't just defuse their Grove-engine, but is also keeps Knights and Tarmogoyfs small and counters GSZ's reshuffle. At it's WORST, Leylines will trade 1:1 with one of their Pridemages, whereas they might sometimes even have to use a GSZ to find it (2:1 here).

I don't think Leylines stop GSZ from shuffling back in. It goes straight from the stack to the library. But this is a minor benefit if at all; the primary benefits are stopping the Punishing Fire recursion and shrinking Knights.

Also, GSZ for Pridemage to blow up a Leyline isn't a 2-for-1 in your favor. It's a 1-for-1.

[ScatmanX]

Small one this time.
5 rounds + Top 8

Round 1 – Deadguy Ale
Game 1 – I Keep Lackey, Tuktuk, S.Shooter, Matron and 3 lands. He IoK’s me, then Hymn, then plays Bob (that dies to a Trafire), then Hymn, then Iok (that takes nothing), then Vindicate on a land, then Seize. After all that I draw a Matron for Ringleader, don’t get discarded, draw more 3 guys, and win from there.

Game 2 – I mull and he takes my vial, then kills my Instigator, the gets jitte on, and I don’t get a 3rd land.

Game 3 – I keep 2x Vial, 2x Lackey, Instigator, 2 lands. By turn 5 or so I had only drawn lands and 2 Tarfires, that got a Bob and a Stoneforge. When finally I got a Matron, I won.
1-0

Round 2 – Dredge
Game 1 – I lead with Lackey that connects into Matron for SGC (mistake). He Carefulls Study, then plays Imp, then Breaktrough, dredging a bunch. I pass. He dredge, then attempts to reanimate Flame Kin-Zealot. I Tarfire my Matron in response, removing 3 Bridges, leaving him with only a 2/2. I get him some turns later.

Game 2 – I mull into Lackey, Knesis, Sting, Shooter, 2 lands. He Therapies himself, then me, then me again for Sting. Later he had 2 bad dredges, and get only 4 tokens. I kill them all with Knesis + Shooter, then matron for Prospector, and that is enough to lock him.
2-0

Round 3 – Maverick
Game 1 – He plays Noble, then 4/4 Knight, Then Stone + Fire/Ice, that gets Tuktuk’d before connecting. Then Knight, then removal + Knight, and a Thalia. Soon I fall to 11, and start chumping. I grind it out with 2 Ringleaders, 2 SGC, and 1 Stingscourger, saving Tarfires for 2 Moms. Gempalm kill his other guys, and he has “only” 3 knights. When he attacks me with 2, chump one, and go down to 3. Then Sting his untapped one, attack him down to 7, and pass with some blockers.

Game 2 – We grind again, and he has some big knights again. I get him to 5, and Ringleaders got me 2 Tarfires, but I can’t find a 3rd one, and can’t even deal 1 more dmg, since I have to chump every turn because was at 9 =/.

Game 3 – I play uber fast because there was little time. Vial T1, Relic T2, with only 2 lands. He untaps with Mom, plays Stoneforge for F/I, plays it and equips. When he does that Vial is at 4. I Vial Ringleader and Gempalm Stone. He gives pro Red, and hits me. I do to 14. It’s the 1st turn of the 5. He plays another Stoneforge, gets tapped out, and passes with only it up.
I get a SGC from Vial, play Chieftain, and Tarfire Stone. I get in for 17 dmg, and that was his exact life total.
3-0

Round 4-5: ID

Top 8: Maverick
Game 1 – I mull, he plays Noble, Stone that dies in reponse to Jitte equipping it, the plas that Elf, then equips noble, that gets Tarfire to. Unfortunately I draw bad as hell, and the 1/1 hits me a few times with Jitte. I don’t find Matron or Tuktuk, and after a SGC and some Gempalms, I manage to kill his guy, but deplete my hand. He plays a Qasali, and kills me with it. Drew 4 Vials this game.

Game 2 – I Ringleader 3 Times. He has 1 huge Knight and Jitte and Sylvan Safekeeper (fuck, it’s hard to beat this). I Tarfire one of my guys one turn, then Gempalm another, so Jitte would not get counters. The next turn I draw a Relic, and play 2 Lackeys. He attack with 2 big Knights, 1 with Jitte. I block 1 with Ringleader, and 1 with 2 Lackeys. With the Jitte trigger on the stack, I pop Relic, and the 2 10/10 Knights die. Next turn I Matron for Tuktuk, and Tarfire the Stone he tries to Equip, leaving him with only a Dryad and a Noble he just played. Tuktuk gets Jitte. He E.Es 2 Vials away. I finally play my SGC. He StP’s. I play another, then Chieftain. He dies.

Game 3 – I mull. He plays Mom, then Noble, then Knight 3/3. My turn I Sting the Knight. He gives pro-red. I Knesis Knight and Mom. He gets a Safekeeper. I don’t draw Matron and Ringleader the entire game, and have to remove a SGC for Knesis so Jitte would not equip on something. (he gave it Shroud in response to my knesis that was in response to him equipping Jitte, so Jitte did not get equipped). I don’t draw Tuktuk/Matron/Ringleader, but manage to kill a Knight. Unfortunately Jitte connects with that flying elf, and I don’t get to remove it. On a critical turn, after SGC and Kiki, I manage to kill the equipped guy after he removed counters to get my board. Unfortunately again, I drew lands (7th and 8th) for 2 turns in a row, while he drew a Qasali, then an StP for my “topdecked” Prospector, that would buy me 2 turns for jitte… =/
3-1

Top 5-8: Maverick
Game 1 – He plays mom, that dies, then I get Vial. He plays Noble then plays knight and Stone ( I destroy the equip), Qasali and Thalia. I fall to 9, and play some blockers. He don’t plays his 5th land, and gets upset. I read him on Elspeth. He pays 4, then taps Knight for a 5th mana, then plays Elspeth, and hits me with a 7/7 Qasali, dropping me to 2. I Had SGC, 3 tokens, tuktuk and Ringleader and Matron on board. I play Chieftain, Stingscourger on Thalia, and Tafire on Stone, hitting for 19. GG

Gaem 2 – He leads with Zenith, then 3/3 Knight. Both gets Knesis’d. He gets Dueling ground, and I hit for 6 in 3 turns. He gets a Qasali, and hits me with Sword L/S 3 turns, and I chump. I Matron for Prospector, to get me mana to play Kiki, and copy Matron for S.Shooter. I play Shooter, he StPs Kiki. I sac for mana, and Tarfire him 3 times (2 of which came from ringleaders), then hit for 2, and he dies.
4-1

Top 5-6: TES
I lose the 1st on his 2nd turn, win the 2nd with MB Trap, lose the 3rd on his 2nd turn after discard. I had no Surgicals or Traps post- Diminish Returns.
4-2-2

I really loved the list. Played -1 Tuktuk, -2 Mountains, +1 Warchief, +1 Skirk, +1 S.Shooter on the MD. SB was weird. Relevant was 3 relic, 3 knesis, 1 Tuktuk.
I loved all the cards, and want to keep Prospector and Warchief in. 20 lands run almost perfectly, and I lost the top8 to flood.

On my last match against Maverick I sided out 4 Instigators and 3 Lackeys (just 7 cards to bring in). I was on the draw, and on the play I definitely keep Lackeys. They have few removal on the play, and trading it with Mom/Dryad is awesome. Instigator, on the other hand, is too slow after SB.
Also, on the Draw, Lackey Is the worst topdeck you can have, and I usually save them for Knesis on mid game. If you have better cards, then I suggest removing lackey on the draw.

I got really happy with my playing too, only making 2 visible mistakes on the tournament, that were Tarfiring the “wrong” guy. I beat Mav twice, and lost once on G3 after a mull and drawing 8 lands and not 1 Matron/Ringleader. Our MU against them is quite good, and we don’t need Anarchy if we have SB slots for Knesis and Relic.

Will try adding 1-2 knesis to the main, to open SB slots for combo, but I really don’t want to take Tarfires out, since the 1 cc removal has proven to be necessary so many times.

[GoboLord]

Well the classic lists only used to run 4 Gempalm Incinerators. Today we often run 2 Pyrokinesis, 2 Tarfires or Bolts, 1 Stingscourger and 3 Gempalm Incinerators or any combination of those cards. That's a 100% increase in spot removal/direct damage cards. That's not even counting cards like Goblin Sharpshooter whom are also repeatable removal cards in a way.

When you compare "classic lists" to "lists today" there is apparently a span of over 3 years. I can't remember having seen a single Goblin deck with fewer than 5 removal (in fact the standard used to be 6-8 removal-spells in MD).
Plus, you are mixing up "spot removal" and "burn" now. You first proposed that direct damage is commonly played today (that's why people are splashing red everywhere and the "Burn.dec" is cool again). Agreed. However the fact that we play more spotremoval/burn (whatever you mean) doesnt prove that it's effective. YOu were talking about successful goblin-lists. I'd like to see examples.




On my last match against Maverick I sided out 4 Instigators and 3 Lackeys (just 7 cards to bring in). I was on the draw, and on the play I definitely keep Lackeys. They have few removal on the play, and trading it with Mom/Dryad is awesome. Instigator, on the other hand, is too slow after SB.
Also, on the Draw, Lackey Is the worst topdeck you can have, and I usually save them for Knesis on mid game. If you have better cards, then I suggest removing lackey on the draw.
+1

[markbris]

Ok guys so the SCG Birmingham is this weekend and I had gone back and forth on decks but I'm gonna sling the goblins. I'm gonna run Rb just because I want to try and pummel RUG and Maverick as much as possible plus I feel like weirding gives some outs against reanimator and show and tell that I like to have. Plus I like leyline out of the board to improve the dredge/reanimator matchups as well.

I'm going to run something close to the list below:


Mana:
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
1 Swamp
1 Badlands

Core:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Aether Vial
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper


Flex:
2 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege Gang Commander
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Gempalm Incinerator

Total
60


Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Perish
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Total
15

I had a couple questions though for you guys.

1) I know alot of people are advocating Chieftain but I'm just not a fan. Can you guys try and convince me why its better than warchief? When I remember playing goblins in the past I just felt like warchief was a house that let me explode onto the board alot of times and just get the most out of the deck. Plus it makes the mana curve easier on me when I can drop ringleaders for 3 and SCG for 4 etc. I just feel like thats stronger than the +1/+1 of Chieftain. Please try and convince me though cuz I'm curious about where you feel Chieftain is stronger?

2) Instigator. I know people are running various amounts of him but I can't see going above 2. It seems fairly horrendous against maverick, better against RUG and even better against Esperblade but I feel like its better as lackeys 5-6 rather than 4 of them. Scatman I didn't see any references to him in your latest report so I'm curious how instigator performed for you? What about you Mantis?

I am hopefully going to get a couple local tournies in tomorrow night and thursday night as well as the legacy challenge on saturday so I will have some more insight and hopefully shake any rust off.

[feline]

Well, thanks to trading and having old stuff to trade from when I first started playing magic, I have completed yet another deck, this time being mono red goblins, and while I made it more for fun, I was not expecting the success I've had with the deck to, actually pull off what so far is 2 tournaments, 4-0 at one and 3-1 at another, I can say that I absloutely love how resilient this deck can be, they just keep coming!

[liamb]

AVR Spoiler time!

Land of Awesome*
Land
When ~ enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
:tap:: Add :1: to your mana pool.
:tap:: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spent this mana only to play a creature of the chosen type. That creature cannot be countered.

Rare.

If true it will be very strong in goblins.

[Mantis]

It's an automatic 4-of in Goblins! It makes the deck a LOT stronger.

[feline]

Just sideboard in vexing shusher! not only is it uncounterable, it also makes other stuff uncounterable, can be grabbed through a ringleader, and tutored for via goblin matron

Nothing is more awesome against blue than pyroblast / red elemental blast, except vialing in a vexing shusher and having the option of making it uncounterable. >^,^<

[Humphrey]

@Markbris: You should at least add 1 or 2 Chieftains to your list to have haste more often and can tutor up one if you need it. Also im not a friend of Weirdings anymore, since a lot of decks run so many creatures that it never gets rid of the problem. Id also run the Kinesis/Tarfire split over bolts any day.

@spoilerland
We have to see how the metagame evolves with AVR, there are so many usable cards, I dont want to predict what DTBs will exist in a few weeks. If blue rises again, its definitly an option. On the other hand, it opens the manabase to Wastelands.

Maybe we will see some more multicolored goblins in the future, i really hope the explore the rg goblins a bit more.

[Pinoy Goblin]

AVR Spoiler time!

Land of Awesome*
Land
When ~ enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
:tap:: Add :1: to your mana pool.
:tap:: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spent this mana only to play a creature of the chosen type. That creature cannot be countered.

Rare.

If true it will be very strong in goblins.

If this is true, it would be a good replacement for ports and go for the straightforward aggro beatdown build with chieftains and instigators:smile:

[feline]

Wait a minute, that land was real! That's insane! I thought it was someone just posting a card they hoped were real or heard as a rumor or something.

While I already board in vexing shusher's, the fact that you can put that in any creature type / tribal deck, that's rather interesting for tribal stuff, I am still a bit shocked, really thought it was untrue earlier when i read it, grats tribes that want a way to fight counter spell heavy decks.

[liamb]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=408979

[fimo]

The new land doesn t sound nice to me:
- the deck has other ways to cheat counterspells. In general, goblins aren t weak to counters
- you don t care to have a mana of any color. A dual land does the job and it is fetchable. Also, it allows to cast tarfire/bolt.

They would make the maverick MU much harder

[liamb]

The new land doesn t sound nice to me:
- the deck has other ways to cheat counterspells. In general, goblins aren t weak to counters
- you don t care to have a mana of any color. A dual land does the job and it is fetchable. Also, it allows to cast tarfire/bolt.

They would make the maverick MU much harder

I agree to some point. We can only discuss predictable impact of new cards on today meta. However if meta will shift towards blue and shrink the maverick’s appearance it should be good call.

[Avatara]

We can play trough Chalice of the Void with this new land. Other than Goblins which would utilize this land the most out of all the tribal decks out there, I can see people with KotR play one copy of this land; to force essential creatures onto the battle field. Blue mages wont be able to rely on those counters to save their hides on critical moments anymore. Not to mention that this card will prolly be the last nail in the merfolk coffin.

[Humphrey]

The Chalice/Land interaction seems really interesting, but wont run either in current meta. At the moment its definitly not worth to make yourself weak to wasteland with enough options to dodge counter already.
Maybe 1of to have Ringleader or Siegegang resolve in the mid to lategame.

[jrw1985]

Cavern of Souls, Lackey, Go.

Hey, nice FoW!

[ScatmanX]

Loved the new land.
I may actually splash G again, since the main reason Tin-Street was bad was because people could Snare and FoW it. Not anymore!
And the land also makes double splashing easier. Not with cards like Weirdings and K.Grip, but TSH and Earwig Squad.
May need to test some new configurations...

[Humphrey]

Imo Tin and Weirdings are the only ones worth mainboarding. The more necessary options for splashes comes with non-creature sideboard options like Perish, Ancient Grudge etc..

[jrw1985]

Cavern of Souls will be a huge boost from an aggro and tempo perspective, and it fixes mana along the way, and you can use it to cast Vial T1 too. Shit damn, this card will be sick. A tribal Bijou, Who Shelters All without the lifeloss dawback? Yes, please. Any goblin deck not running 4 of these just isn't doing it right. This card will change the format. U decks will no longer be able to just brainstorm their way into free counters against Goblins. They'll actually have to use removal, and that means they have to spend mana, which means they don't get to play that T1 Delver after Forcing our Lackey anymore. That's a good thing for us. Stingscourger is now guaranteed to connect against Reanimator. TSH is now actually playable and the Cavern already does the mana fixing for us. That's incredible. Carvern will cause the format to become more creature centric, which is always good for Gobbos.

This is the most significant card to be printed for a Goblin deck since Ringleader.

[wert]

1) I know alot of people are advocating Chieftain but I'm just not a fan. Can you guys try and convince me why its better than warchief? When I remember playing goblins in the past I just felt like warchief was a house that let me explode onto the board alot of times and just get the most out of the deck. Plus it makes the mana curve easier on me when I can drop ringleaders for 3 and SCG for 4 etc. I just feel like thats stronger than the +1/+1 of Chieftain. Please try and convince me though cuz I'm curious about where you feel Chieftain is stronger?

2) Instigator. I know people are running various amounts of him but I can't see going above 2. It seems fairly horrendous against maverick, better against RUG and even better against Esperblade but I feel like its better as lackeys 5-6 rather than 4 of them. Scatman I didn't see any references to him in your latest report so I'm curious how instigator performed for you? What about you Mantis?

I am hopefully going to get a couple local tournies in tomorrow night and thursday night as well as the legacy challenge on saturday so I will have some more insight and hopefully shake any rust off.
Instigator goes hand in hand with chieftain. Double strike can get nasty fast, on the other hand, warchief doesn't almost nothing for it. Using cheating goblins in play effect to offset the higher curve. So, each questions answered one another.

The new land looks potentially good, at the very least useful consideration. I am so so happy there is at least 1 relevant card in this set.

[jrw1985]

More Cavern of Souls speculation:

This totally brings back Warchief, right? Clearly when you can cast goblins with impunity you really want to capitalize on reduced CMC. So, backing away from 4 Winstigators will probably be a good idea, maybe go down to 2, and playing with more Piledrivers/MWM/Sharpshooter/Stingscourger all seems like a good idea. I really think this card strengthens the classic goblins build.

[DragoFireheart]

Land of Vial Goblins
Land
When ~ enters the battlefield, choose goblins.
:tap:: Add :1: to your mana pool.
:tap:: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. You cast your goblins as uncounterable. Tell target blue player to kiss your ass.

[prateta]

More about Cavern of Souls.

I think, this land is so good, it might make goblins t1 deck again and return them their old glory. In my country (Czech Republic), U/W and U/W/B controls are very heavily played in tournaments and this land is something that just screws them.

I'm very happy about it and I hope they are not going to ban it for legacy.

P.S.

I registered today, but I've been reading this topic for weeks. I just want to thank you all for ideas and reports, it was really helpfull for me. Hail goblins!

[Final Fortune]

Cavern of Souls will be a huge boost from an aggro and tempo perspective, and it fixes mana along the way, and you can use it to cast Vial T1 too. Shit damn, this card will be sick. A tribal Bijou, Who Shelters All without the lifeloss dawback? Yes, please. Any goblin deck not running 4 of these just isn't doing it right. This card will change the format. U decks will no longer be able to just brainstorm their way into free counters against Goblins. They'll actually have to use removal, and that means they have to spend mana, which means they don't get to play that T1 Delver after Forcing our Lackey anymore. That's a good thing for us. Stingscourger is now guaranteed to connect against Reanimator. TSH is now actually playable and the Cavern already does the mana fixing for us. That's incredible. Carvern will cause the format to become more creature centric, which is always good for Gobbos.

This is the most significant card to be printed for a Goblin deck since Ringleader.

I'm don't think it'll make the format more creature centric, I think it'll make the format less creature centric because previous foils to Goblins such as Zoo are going to be the only creature based decks that can't utilize this land so we're going to become stronger vs. Control and Aggro-Control while our foils become less and less present in the metagame.

It may literally boil down to Maverick, Deadguy, Goblins and Elves and that's hoping Goblins just doesn't blow out Maverick and Deadguy. Meh, this card is so potentially meta warping towards Tribal aggro. It's kind of a shame.

[FTW]

So is everyone in agreement?
-4 Mountain
+4 Land of Vial Goblins

For all intents and purposes it produces red mana, except for Gempalm cycling, Aether Vial (vial doesn't care), tribal removal and SB cards. Some red SB spells may be harder to cast. BUT HEY we don't need to worry about artifact kill getting countered so just run Tin-Street Hooligan AND THIS AUTO-FIXES YOU FOR GREEN MANA OMG OMG OMG

I think the card is getting too much hype in general, but it's pretty much custom-built for Vial Goblins. It just fits in so seamlessly and supports your gameplan.

I propose this get added to the Core cards.

[jrw1985]

So is everyone in agreement?
-4 Mountain
+4 Land of Vial Goblins

For all intents and purposes it produces red mana, except for Gempalm cycling, Aether Vial (vial doesn't care), tribal removal and SB cards. Some red SB spells may be harder to cast. BUT HEY we don't need to worry about artifact kill getting countered so just run Tin-Street Hooligan AND THIS AUTO-FIXES YOU FOR GREEN MANA OMG OMG OMG

I think the card is getting too much hype in general, but it's pretty much custom-built for Vial Goblins. It just fits in so seamlessly and supports your gameplan.

I propose this get added to the Core cards.

Oh, but it does cast Vial, cycle Gempalm, and cast SB cards! It taps for 1 colorless mana with no restrictions on how you use it, so you can pay 1 for Vial, or 1 of the R1 to cycle Gempalm, or 1 of B2 to cast Perish. So, yes, you can use it plenty beyond casting Goblins.

[wert]

Oh, but it does cast Vial, cycle Gempalm, and cast SB cards! It taps for 1 colorless mana with no restrictions on how you use it, so you can pay 1 for Vial, or 1 of the R1 to cycle Gempalm, or 1 of B2 to cast Perish. So, yes, you can use it plenty beyond casting Goblins.
It is a decent card but not quite the slamdunk auto 4 of. The text is quite specified that its coloured mana can only be used to cast creature spells of the chosen creature type and only then that spell can't be countered. So, it doesn't help with all the sideboard cards in terms of coloured mana. It also can't be fetched and can't help to fix mana for interesting off colour spells like Warren Weirding.

Furthermore, our creatures are already pretty much uncounterable with vials in the first place.

[FTW]

Oh, but it does cast Vial, cycle Gempalm, and cast SB cards! It taps for 1 colorless mana with no restrictions on how you use it, so you can pay 1 for Vial, or 1 of the R1 to cycle Gempalm, or 1 of B2 to cast Perish. So, yes, you can use it plenty beyond casting Goblins.

Guys, please read more carefully. Did I say you couldn't cast them? Nope. I said it didn't produce red mana for them. Vial doesn't care. Gempalm/tribal removal/SB stuff might care if you just had this+Port+Wasteland, but any other colored source and you're good.

Why does red mana make a difference? People were arguing to cut Ports for these. I am arguing to cut Mountains for these, since in 95% of cases it can do everything that a Mountain can do. Aside from vulnerability to Wasteland and Back to Basics, it is essentially a Mountain with benefits. Which means I see no reasons not to cut a few basic Mountains for them unless Back to Basics is a serious concern. (Blood Moon is irrelevant: it just turns it back into the Mountain it was replacing). Maybe the safe thing is to cut 3 Mountains and 1 Port.

Vials make your guys uncounterable, but Vial also has a giant "HEY LOOK AT ME! GET READY TO PITCH A BLUE CARD AND DECREMENT YOUR LIFE BY 1" on it. You don't always start with Vial, it doesn't always resolve, and artifact removal is everywhere because of Maverickblade and Esperblade and Bantblade and Bladeblade. It's nice to be able to do stuff without Vial.

Ex: Opponent has a Jitte. You want to Tuktuk Scrapper it so you don't lose the game, but you don't have a Vial and those damn Spirit tokens are laughing at your Lackey. Oh lookie here. This there land there lets you cast a Matron into Tuktuk Scrapper without worrying about counterspells! So, barring a Stifle, that Jitte is guaranteed dead. Seems useful.

-----------------------
Interesting point: If you run SB Chalice of the Void @ 1 against combo, your Lackey still won't get countered if you cast it with Caverns! Oh, and CounterTopWho?

[DragoFireheart]

A Goblin deck that main-decks Chalice of the Void? What's next? Trinisphere and 2-mana lands?

[ivanpei]

That land is so broken in goblins, it's not funny. Auto 4 off. Question is what to cut. I think the deck needs a minimum 2 mountains. I splashed black for warren weirding and green for nature's claim. Now I think I will cut green and go straight rb. The fact that it doesn't cast weirding kind of sucks, but gotta live with that. Here's my new manabase:

8 fetch
3 badlands
2 mountains
4 waste
2 port
4 cavern

Uncounterable t1 lackey backed up by uncounterable t2 stingscourger FTW!

[Humphrey]

You guys are overreacting here ;) How often does lackey get countered? Yeah sometimes it happens, but usually it gets handled by removal or blocker. In fact sometimes its good to have the lackey forced to trade 1:2 and get the Vial on T2 (or lead with a land drop in case of Daze)

Also the most problematic cards (in the current meta) against us are not counters, its Deed, Lingering Souls, Jitte, to an extend Batterskull, Mother, Elspeth.
Yeah sure it sucks from time to time to have your matron or ringleader countered, but how many game will you lose because you cant cast Tarfire or Weirding or get wasted or Price of Progressed?

As mentioned before. Ill wait how the metagame shifts. At the moment Id add a 1-of to get a nice trick in the control lategame.

[GoboLord]

A Goblin deck that main-decks Chalice of the Void? What's next? Trinisphere and 2-mana lands?

Nobody wants to play Chalice in MD, read more carefully before spamming, please.

@ ivanpei and Humphrey:
It's not just about Lackey not being countered. On the long run you can be sure that every important Goblin you want to see on the battle field will actually find his way.
Humphrey is right in that most Goblins die to removal, not to countermagic. However having the opportunity to dodge countermagic even more outweighs those small "drawbacks" of Caverns. I mean: let them use a wasteland on it. So what? it's not like we were screwed because have fewer lands in play. What really can get us is not having the right color when we need it.

[ScatmanX]

In fact sometimes its good to have the lackey forced to trade 1:2 and get the Vial on T2 (or lead with a land drop in case of Daze)
If you want Lackey to get FoW'd, play a Mountain 1st turn.

[Avatara]

but how many game will you lose because you cant cast Tarfire or Weirding or get wasted or Price of Progressed?
That's not an issue if you replace your ports (which aren't super strong anymore) with this new land. We never had problems playing the cards you mention with Ports and Wastelands. If it's not making your spells uncounterable, it's for the very least fixing our mana a little bit.

Who knows what crazy multicolor goblins Ravnica 2 will give us?! ;)

[ScatmanX]

Who knows what crazy multicolor goblins Ravnica 2 will give us?! ;)
Pray the lord!

[kombatkiwi]

My initial reaction to this new land is to play all 4 just by cutting mountains.
It's definitely a strong card for goblins but I don't think it pushes the deck over the top.

What do you guys think about drew levin's deck on his starcity article where he doesn't play any lackeys?

[fimo]

Also the most problematic cards (in the current meta) against us are not counters, its Deed, Lingering Souls, Jitte, to an extend Batterskull, Mother, Elspeth.


I agree. The actual question is whether the benefit of dodging counters outweighs the drowbacks of getting wasted mana screwed. I agree with Humphrey that this card is meta dependent. You face a lot of U/W or esper? great! you face a lot of maverick? get ready to get mana screwed against their wasteland-sharpshooter knight of the reliquary.

It s definetely worth to give it a try nonetheless.

[DragoFireheart]

I agree. The actual question is whether the benefit of dodging counters outweighs the drowbacks of getting wasted mana screwed. I agree with Humphrey that this card is meta dependent. You face a lot of U/W or esper? great! you face a lot of maverick? get ready to get mana screwed against their wasteland-sharpshooter knight of the reliquary.


What? Mono-red Goblins already ran Ports+Wastes and did quite fine in the past. Wastes+Caverns is Not going to be an issue. You also forget we run Vial. We're not getting Waste-locked.

As for some claiming that removal is the issue... so what? That's why you tutor for Ringleaders and go bonkers. It was an issue in the past because they could blow up vial and then save counters for Matron. That won't be so easy anymore: we can safely cast Matron/Ringleader. They do not have infinite amounts of removal and they will run out of removal before we run out of goblins.

[ScatmanX]

What do you guys think about drew levin's deck on his starcity article where he doesn't play any lackeys?
He is on drugs.
The amount of games we just flat out WIN by playing 1st turn Lackey on the play is absurd.
Arguing that Mav/Canadian can block it with cards like Dryad Arbor/Mother of Runes/Mongoose is stupid. I'd gladly trade a T1 Lackey with ANY of those. We're winning if we do. Also, we play removal. We can easily get lots of those out of the board, specially with SB Knesis.

He's right that it is bad on the draw against Mav, and probably against Esper too. But against Canadian, it isn't. They HAVE to trade you 1cc investment 1/1 with something like a blocker, Daze, Burn or even FoW. But that the BEST deal we can make. You rather they just burn something that cost 2 or 3?
You can even G1 agains Mav have dream hands, like Lackey T1, Instigator T2, with ANY removal (from the 9 MD we have), you just won.

Saying that Warchief is a must is also nonsense. It is an awesome card, but by no means is an automatic 4 off. I bet my right arm he haven't even playtested a list with Instigators and Chieftains.

Also, putting Lackeys on the SB is bad too. If you don't want them, just SB them out game 2-3. Easy.
And I don't even want to comment about the manabase...

[Humphrey]

Chatting about uncounterable..
I brainstormed the esper matchup and found sulfur elemental, what you guys think? Its great against GW too

[DragoFireheart]

Chatting about uncounterable..
I brainstormed the esper matchup and found sulfur elemental, what you guys think? Its great against GW too

If it's a goblin, sure.

If not, no. Seriously.

[Davran]

Maybe I missed this in the fervor over Cavern of Souls, but I don't think anyone has mentioned another benefit to running it.

The current "best" goblin-shaped artifact hate for the Chieftain (mono-r) build is TukTuk Scrapper. With some number of Cavern of Souls we can more easily run Tin Street Hooligan without actually splashing green. Not only is he a 2/1 body two turns faster, he also lets us blow up a turn 2-3 Jitte before it gets loaded with counters.

Of course there are problems with this since Cavern isn't fetchable, but I'm looking forward to testing it out.

I'll be testing Caverns over Mountains for now since I don't run Port in my current build.

Now all we need is a nice 1-2 CMC goblin that destroys a white creature when it enters play *hint hint wizards*.

[ScatmanX]

Chatting about uncounterable..
I brainstormed the esper matchup and found sulfur elemental, what you guys think? Its great against GW too
Goblin Sharpshooter is just better. Playing 1 MD and 1 SB should be enough against Tokens.

[Humphrey]

Goblin Sharpshooter is just better. Playing 1 MD and 1 SB should be enough against Tokens.
True but Shooter is useless, when no tokens around or to slow and gets removed. Sulfur Elemental has flash and split second so it removes the tokens for sure and can sometimes catch a jace.

[fimo]

What? Mono-red Goblins already ran Ports+Wastes and did quite fine in the past. Wastes+Caverns is Not going to be an issue. You also forget we run Vial. We're not getting Waste-locked.


It all depends on which lands you replace to give space to the new land. Replacing mountains? you are more open to mana screw, replacing waste/ports? you are weaker in the mana denaial game plan. It will for sure have some benefits though. Playtests will show what is best. Maybe, this will be the end of the mana denial game plan in goblins. Most of all, I m curious to see whether vials will still be an automatic 4-of.

[DragoFireheart]

I can see Aether Vials still being a four-off. Vials and CoS along with a tweaked goblin plan to simply over-run and overwhelm other players and maybe Goblins could become so powerful they are only weak to combo decks like TES and High Tide. I could see ports being dropped for Cavern of Souls. I always thought the mana-denial was Goblins secondary strategy while it's primary strategy was simply playing a shit ton of goblins.

[fimo]

I can see Aether Vials still being a four-off. Vials and CoS along with a tweaked goblin plan to simply over-run and overwhelm other players and maybe Goblins could become so powerful they are only weak to combo decks like TES and High Tide. I could see ports being dropped for Cavern of Souls. I always thought the mana-denial was Goblins secondary strategy while it's primary strategy was simply playing a shit ton of goblins.

Mana denial allows you to buy time to play shit ton of goblins. A primary problem is equipments. I m curious to see whether this new land will make TSH more efficient than tuktuk. If so, that s the big deal imo. Having a playable 2 mana cost goblin dealing with a an active jitte is of primary importance.

[Humphrey]

I agree Tin-Street is better than Tuktuk, unless you have a warchief out, or want to vial it to kill equipment at instant-speed..
If TSH is better than the benefits of staying monoR, why not splash for taiga?

Well i dismissed the mana denial plan with ports already. Its much more important to run less land and have a higher thread densitiy than trying to screw decks like (one mana is enough) Delver or (shitload of ramp) GW.

[jrw1985]

He is on drugs.
The amount of games we just flat out WIN by playing 1st turn Lackey on the play is absurd.
Arguing that Mav/Canadian can block it with cards like Dryad Arbor/Mother of Runes/Mongoose is stupid. I'd gladly trade a T1 Lackey with ANY of those. We're winning if we do. Also, we play removal. We can easily get lots of those out of the board, specially with SB Knesis.

He's right that it is bad on the draw against Mav, and probably against Esper too. But against Canadian, it isn't. They HAVE to trade you 1cc investment 1/1 with something like a blocker, Daze, Burn or even FoW. But that the BEST deal we can make. You rather they just burn something that cost 2 or 3?
You can even G1 agains Mav have dream hands, like Lackey T1, Instigator T2, with ANY removal (from the 9 MD we have), you just won.

Saying that Warchief is a must is also nonsense. It is an awesome card, but by no means is an automatic 4 off. I bet my right arm he haven't even playtested a list with Instigators and Chieftains.

Also, putting Lackeys on the SB is bad too. If you don't want them, just SB them out game 2-3. Easy.
And I don't even want to comment about the manabase...

I didn't read the article or see the list, but I've won the vast majority of games against creature-based decks where I've landed a Lackey T1 on the play and my opponent went for a blocker instead of removal. Dryad Arbor? Waste. Mom? Tarfire/Pyro/Gempalm. Tireless Tribe? Weirding. Goblins just kills when Lackeys are allowed to live. I will also gladly trade a Lackey for an opponent's 1-drop if Lackey can't connect otherwise


I can see Aether Vials still being a four-off. Vials and CoS along with a tweaked goblin plan to simply over-run and overwhelm other players and maybe Goblins could become so powerful they are only weak to combo decks like TES and High Tide. I could see ports being dropped for Cavern of Souls. I always thought the mana-denial was Goblins secondary strategy while it's primary strategy was simply playing a shit ton of goblins.

Cavern is actually really good against High Tide because High Tide will Force a T1 Lackey every chance it gets. They don't want to be under a clock, and Forcing Lackey is really the only way they have of doing that.

[jrw1985]

I just remembered that Descendant's Path costs only G2, not GG1. That's pretty good. Maybe even good enough to make Squee, Goblin Nabob playable again.

My only real worry about the playability of Descendant's Path is that it has a 1 turn lag. This lag also makes Wort pretty unplayable, but that's because Wort is a removal-eating creature. Path is much more difficult to answer, so it might actually stick around to be relevant. I'm gonna brew a list I think.

I fishbowled with a Descendan't path build and gotta say that it was wayyyyy tooooo slowwwwwww. There's not justification for spending T3 casting a spell that does nothing in a format as fast as Legacy. It was a nice idea, but doesn't work.

[Humphrey]

I fishbowled with a Descendan't path build and gotta say that it was wayyyyy tooooo slowwwwwww. There's not justification for spending T3 casting a spell that does nothing in a format as fast as Legacy. It was a nice idea, but doesn't work.

Thats like saying creatures without haste are unplayable. Ususally you should get a free creature on the next turn or get rid of a land and get buisness.
I also tested it and found it ok, but it was just a few games. The main problem with it, you have to board it out every match because if you board hate in it puts it on the bottom and your goblincount decrease to much.

[jrw1985]

Thats like saying creatures without haste are unplayable. Ususally you should get a free creature on the next turn or get rid of a land and get buisness.
I also tested it and found it ok, but it was just a few games. The main problem with it, you have to board it out every match because if you board hate in it puts it on the bottom and your goblincount decrease to much.

Humphrey, you crazy, boo. Any enchantment that does nothing is way worse than a creature without haste, cuz, ya know, creatures can still block. That enchantment don't do shit.

[jrw1985]

I'm posting too much.
What can I say? I'm excited about Avacyn Restored. Put a load of bids out on Ebay tonight. Hoping I win em all.

[Greenpoe]

The main problem with it, you have to board it out every match because if you board hate in it puts it on the bottom

This is a logical fallacy. Whether you reveal a Goblin or non-Goblin card, it'll dig one card deeper either way. That means it's just as likely to dig for your hate as it is to get rid of it. The goblin count issue is legitimate, but doesn't this card seem like more of a SB card anyway? You want to win game 1 off of speed mostly, right? (and CA from Ringleader/Matron in case the game goes long) But after sideboarding, you have to face extra removal, blue elemental blast or whatever else, and I think the green enchantment helps there as well as against any attrition deck in general.

[ScatmanX]

Just so people don't say I critique people without testing stuff, I did.
Played a smal tournament today. 4 rounds. won 3 then ID.
The list?

-----24 lands-----
4 Badlands
2 Auntie's Hovel
3 Mountain
8 Fetches
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
-----22 dudes-----
4 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Frogtosser Banneret
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Mogg Warmarchall
1 Mad Auntie
1 Earqig Squad
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
-----14 removal-----
4 Tarfire
1 Forked Bolt
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Weirdings
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

0 Vials, 0 Lackey, 0 Instigator, 0 Siege-Gang.
This was more of an experiment, to see what cards were better today, and if the manabase could support the loss of Vial and Lackey.
It did, but not that great. Mulligan was way worse, once I did not have the incremental advantage of Vial. Lackey/Gator were not all that missed, since removal took care of anything on the early game. But not running them made mulligans worse too...

Round 1 was against Canadian, and having 24 lands, with 4 Wastes and 3 Ports was awesome. And with the shitload of removal, it was hard for them do get anything through. Post side came in 3 Perish and 3 Relic, and he was demolished. The games took forever, and we went trough all our lands. Fortunately, they only run 3-4 Tropical, so once you make them unable to cast their guys, you should be winning.
Round 2 agains the Mirror. I mull and draw Weirdings game 1. Game 2 and 3 show that the plan is quite good against us. Instead of drawing Vial I got lands, and his tuktuk were useless, while not mine. I had more goblins he could not let uncheked, like Wort and MAd Auntie.
Round 3 a BW deadguy. He went for Sword UR, that got destroyed after connecting, and my shitload of removal got his Tokes with Jitte, and he could never connect with it.
Tested Cabal Therapy here, but had mixed feelings. Maybe Knesis would be better... Drawing them late sucked. And a 2nd Sharpshooter will make the MU MUCH easier, (like the Esper one).
Round 4 against Mav. 3 Perish + 3 Knesis + 2 Sulfur Elemental from the side, plus all the Removal MD made the MU quite nice after boarding.

I don't recommend this list to anyone, because it is not that good, but was quite cool playing it, and I had lots of fun.
Best play of the day was Frogtosser T2, Chieftain + Piledriver T3.
Earwig Squad removed 3 E.Plagues game 2 and 3 against BW. awesome card.

That said, on the big tournament this weekend I'll probably play the "stock" list.
(I had a point when started writing this, but am tired as hell and forgot...)

[joemauer]

This is a logical fallacy. Whether you reveal a Goblin or non-Goblin card, it'll dig one card deeper either way. That means it's just as likely to dig for your hate as it is to get rid of it. The goblin count issue is legitimate, but doesn't this card seem like more of a SB card anyway? You want to win game 1 off of speed mostly, right? (and CA from Ringleader/Matron in case the game goes long) But after sideboarding, you have to face extra removal, blue elemental blast or whatever else, and I think the green enchantment helps there as well as against any attrition deck in general.

Sideboard cards for goblins are generally narrow; anti-graveyard or anti-artifacts. This enchantment will hinder your topdecking hopes in matchups such as dredge or stoneblade. You will still have tin street hooligan for jitte, but he doesn't exactly synergize with this enchantment either.

I could be wrong but I believe this is sort of what Humphrey was talking about.

[Greenpoe]

Sideboard cards for goblins are generally narrow; anti-graveyard or anti-artifacts. This enchantment will hinder your topdecking hopes in matchups such as dredge or stoneblade. You will still have tin street hooligan for jitte, but he doesn't exactly synergize with this enchantment either.

I could be wrong but I believe this is sort of what Humphrey was talking about.

Descendant's Path reads:
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library. If it's a creature card that shares a creature type with a creature you control, you can cast this card without paying its mana cost. Otherwise, put it at the bottom of your library.

I'm not sure you understand the card, or perhaps I don't, but Descendant's Path does not hurt your topdecking abilities other than in the sense that in multiples it's a dead card. It doesn't matter if your SB card gets put on bottom from a theory standpoint, because either the card goes into play or it goes on bottom. It helps your topdecking by digging 1 card deeper whenever you reveal a Goblin creature (which will be 50+% of the time), though. But thinking that it hurts your topdecking just because you see that x card gets stacked on bottom is wrong - you would not draw whatever card you reveal, no matter what it is. So it actually helps you find your SB cards.

[Humphrey]

In the short run it doesnt matter, but when more cards were revealed your sideboardcards are all stacked on the bottom where normally you would have drawn them. This doesnt matter when you run a lot of shufflle effects, though. But then its still the low gob count which makes the Enchantment kind of bad.

Well it definitly needs more testing, I dont want to dismiss it that fast.

[jrw1985]

Once we start running Cavern of Souls should we start cutting down on the number of Vials we play?

Or is the mana acceleration and interaction Vial provides still integral to the deck?

[ScatmanX]

Once we start running Cavern of Souls should we start cutting down on the number of Vials we play?

I don't think so. My testing have shown that Vial is an important aspect of our deck, and the mana advantage (not acceleration imo) we gains is absurd, leting we play out like no other legacy deck. Caverns in no way compare to that.

[Avatara]

I don't think so. My testing have shown that Vial is an important aspect of our deck, and the mana advantage (not acceleration imo) we gains is absurd, leting we play out like no other legacy deck. Caverns in no way compare to that.
I agree... without Vial, Ringleader has the tendency to flood our hand. During the short MM era I experienced with a goblin lord list without Vials and I was forced to reduce the number of Ringleaders.

[FTW]

A Goblin deck that main-decks Chalice of the Void? What's next? Trinisphere and 2-mana lands?

"SB" = sideboard, not maindeck. It has happened in the past.

Thanks for reinforcing my argument that people cannot read :D

Illiteracy FTL

[ScatmanX]

"SB" = sideboard, not maindeck. It has happened in the past.

Thanks for reinforcing my argument that people cannot read :D

Illiteracy FTL
Well, actually I had a CotV build, but didn't use it last night (and chose that weird list instead) because I don't have Chrome Mox.
It would be like this:

2 Badlands
7 Fetch
4 Montanha
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 Chrome Mox

4 Lacaio Goblin
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Matrona Goblin
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki

1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
3 Warrens Weirdings

4 Chalice of the Void

SB:
3 Perish
3 Mindbreak Trap

2 Arc Trail
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Tormords Crypt
1 Earwig Squad
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

It does not have Vial again, so it probably suck, but I just want to test it.
Seems great against decks overloading with 1cc. If I ever get to play this, I'll write something, but that probably won't happen very soon...

[Davran]

I don't think so. My testing have shown that Vial is an important aspect of our deck, and the mana advantage (not acceleration imo) we gains is absurd, leting we play out like no other legacy deck. Caverns in no way compare to that.

I agree. The "unable to be countered" aspect of Vial is just icing on the mana advantage cake. Also, your opponent can't hit your Vial with a Wasteland like they can with the Cavern.

I'm thinking something like 4x Vial and 2x Cavern might be the way to go, but I haven't had any time to test/goldfish such a build. Has anyone else messed around with Cavern?

[ScatmanX]

I agree. The "unable to be countered" aspect of Vial is just icing on the mana advantage cake. Also, your opponent can't hit your Vial with a Wasteland like they can with the Cavern.

I'm thinking something like 4x Vial and 2x Cavern might be the way to go, but I haven't had any time to test/goldfish such a build. Has anyone else messed around with Cavern?
No, and unfortunately probably won't so fast, since thei're quite expensive.... =/

[Davran]

No, and unfortunately probably won't so fast, since thei're quite expensive.... =/

Heh, I won't be buying/trading for any until long after I've playtested. I usually just use proxies.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Guys Im happy we have a new card thats perfectly build for us "cavern of souls" right now, Im thinking of getting playsets but my mana base is quite tight now, Im running my rbg list . . . I cant drop the G because of krosan grips and B splash because of perish ang LOTV, been thinking of putting 2 caverns only here's my mana base list:

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
2 Badlands

Any suggestions on which to cut? and the number of caverns I'll put? Thanks:smile:

[jrw1985]

I don't see how fitting 4 Cavern of Souls into the manabase is going to be a problem.

22 Lands

4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Dualland
4 Fetchland
6 Mountian

or

4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Dual land
4 Fetchland
4 Mountian

This manabase should work for a 1, 2, or 3 color manabase. Easy.

[Hencules]

This manabase should work for a 1, 2, or 3 color manabase. Easy.

Wouldn't it be a problem that the opponent now can waste your "mountains"?

[joemauer]

Wouldn't it be a problem that the opponent now can waste your "mountains"?

I think caverns of souls best replaces rishadan port.

Rishadan Port is kind of outdated nowadays. It was best used to slow down control decks trying to get to four mana for humility or wrath of god.

The deck to beat is no long landstill(new set could change this?). The new decks to beat are Maverick, Canadian Thresh, and Stoneblade. You probably know how effective port is against the first two. Canadian Thresh can operate off one land and Maverick has Mana Dorks.

As for stoneblade, what would you rather do here? Cast uncounterable lackies, tin street hooligans, and ringleaders. Or durdle around with their lands?

[Davran]

Took the gobs to second place in a small tournament last night using the following list:

Main Deck:
17x Mountain
4x Wasteland

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Chieftain
3x Warren Instigator
1x Goblin Piledriver
2x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Siege-gang Commander
2x Stingscourger
2x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

4x Tarfire
1x Pyrokinesis

4x Aether Vial

Sideboard:
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Stingscourger
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Shattering Spree

I didn't take any notes, so here's a quick and dirty report from memory:

Round 1 vs. Team America:

Game 1 goes back and forth. I eventually resolve a Sharpshooter and use it to pick apart his Goyf and unflipped Delver. The following turn I am able to vial in a Siege-gang Commander, but my opponent Stifles the trigger so I don't get any tokens (I was surprised he didn't stifle the Vial itself...). I attack him down to 5, and pass the turn. He casts a Goyf, realizes that between Sharpshooter and the Siege-gang I have lethal on board and we're off to game 2.

Sideboarding: +3 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Stingscourger, -2 TukTuk Scrapper, -2 Goblin Lackey (I sided the lackeys out here because between Force of Will, Delver, and Daze it was unlikely that it was going to get there. Any comments on this decision are welcome)

Game 2 can be accurately described as a beating. He has plenty of counters and a Pithing Needle(!) for my vial. He eventually sticks a pair of Tombstalkers and a Goyf...so I scoop them up.

Sideboarding: No change. REB had been pretty good, so I left it in.

Game 3 can also be accurately described as a beating, only this time I was the one throwing the punches. I chanced a turn 1 lackey that connected into a Siege-gang. Two turns later I had about 8 goblins on the field (thanks Winstigator!). I vialed in a Chieftain and he scooped them up.

Round 2 vs. Punishing Maverick with a blue splash(!)

Game 1 goes well for me. I draw a perfectly timed Stingscourger and Tarfire to put it away easily. I was also able to kill a surprise Rhox War Monk with a cycled Gempalm before he could gain any life off of it. Sharpshooter once again proved himself here, shooting a Hierarch and Mom.

Sideboarding: +1 Stingscourger, +2 Pyrokinesis, -3 Goblin Lackey (I again sided out Lackeys here...but I'm much more confident that this was correct on the draw against Maverick.)

Game 2 ended relatively quickly. He has a pretty explosive hand compared to my slower draw. I brick by drawing lands for a couple turns while taking a beating from a 6/6 KotR with protection from red. He resolves a Geist of Saint Traft(!) and I scoop them up.

Sideboarding: +1 Shattering Spree, -1 Goblin Lackey. My opponent used a Stoneforge to fetch out a Jitte game 2, so the artifact hate came in for the last Lackey.

Game 3 was one of those games you only get when you're goldfishing. I had removal when I needed it, pressure on the board, and he had nothing he could do about it.

Round 3 vs. Affinity

Game 1 threw me for a loop. I win the die roll, drop a lackey and pass. He leads with Ancient Den, Opal, Memnite, Memnite, Frogmite, Dispatch(!) on the Lackey. The following turn he casts Stoneforge Mystic(!) finding Cranial Plating, and I pack it in.

Sideboarding: +2 Pyrokinesis, +1 Shattering Spree, -3 Goblin Lackey. Again the Lackeys came out, and again I'm confident that was correct even on the play. Affinity just has way too many blockers.

Game 2 went well for the red team. I have a Wasteland for his Ancient Den, a Sharpshooter for his early beaters (especially good since he paid 4 life for the two Vault Skirge I gunned down) and plenty of pressure. At one point I was able to shoot down a Frogmite using the echo trigger from a Stingscourger. Afterward he comments that the Wasteland won me the game because I kept him off of Stoneforge for Plating, but IMO Sharpshooter deserves the credit. That card is nuts in this match-up.

Game 3 starts off ugly. He has an early Dispatch and plenty of beaters, knocking me down to 4 pretty quickly. I'm able to stabilize thanks to a top-decked Pyrokinesis and a resolved Sharpshooter. Matron for Tarfire saved my bacon twice this game, and I was very thankful for the interaction. I eventually get there with a Siege-gang and Chieftain.

Finals vs. Food Chain Elves

Game 1 is looking good for me as I resolve a Sharpshooter on turn 3. Sadly, he doesn't have haste and my opponent rips the forest he needed off the top to combo me out.

Sideboarding: +2 Pyrokinesis, +1 Stingscourger, -2 TukTuk Scrapper, -1 Goblin Lackey

Game 2 went well. I drew plenty of removal to keep him off of creatures and deliver the beat down. My opponent comments that it's weird to see goblins be so controlling...but I'm pretty sure that is our role in this match-up.

Game 3 was nothing short of a blow out. He explodes onto the table with more elves than I can handle, and I'm staring down a turn 4 Emrakul and 10 of his elven subjects. Nothing worse than having a Stingscourger in hand for the Emrakul and losing to the elves anyway.


In all, I was very happy with the list. I made a last-minute call to stick the Sharpshooter in the main over a 2nd Pyrokinesis, and it was absolutely the right decision. I fetched him up at least once in each match-up, and if he survived long enough to start shooting I won the game. I just wish he gave himself haste...but hey, we can't have it all I guess.

RE: Piledriver - I still have mixed feelings here. I've been running it recently because it is more relevant in the late game than a WInstigator. That said, I have yet to actually search one up with a late Matron, or actually win because of a resolved Piledriver.

[ScatmanX]

Sideboarding: +3 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Stingscourger, -2 TukTuk Scrapper, -2 Goblin Lackey (I sided the lackeys out here because between Force of Will, Delver, and Daze it was unlikely that it was going to get there. Any comments on this decision are welcome)
Gongrats there man!
I would not take them out against TA. If they Daze it, it's ok, since you're up on lands. If they block with Delver/Bob, it's ok, because you have way more threats then they. If they FoW, you 2for1d, nad other things will resolve.
Also, they have few creatures, and even if they have a big Goyf out, they have to let a creature back to block if they don't have removal.

Against Affinity I'd leave them in too. I take out a number of Vials or Ringleaders. The deal is, if you have 4 manas to cast a Ringleader, then it means you destroyed their board, because otherwise you'd be dead. In that scenario, a Lackey would have a chance of connecting T2-4, sealing the game.

Against Elves I'd keep it in also. You're not winning by card advantage, neither from Affinity. You are the control, as you said, but there is the point of the game where you swich gears and kill them in 2 turns. You need Lackey there.
Also, against Elves, if you lead with Lackey, they HAVE to block and trade T1. If you have ANY removal, or follow with Instigator, then you just win.

Against Mav imo you did right, but could consider bringing it in again on the play.

[Davran]

First off, thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate it.


Gongrats there man!
I would not take them out against TA. If they Daze it, it's ok, since you're up on lands. If they block with Delver/Bob, it's ok, because you have way more threats then they. If they FoW, you 2for1d, nad other things will resolve.
Also, they have few creatures, and even if they have a big Goyf out, they have to let a creature back to block if they don't have removal.

I see your point here. A better choice would probably have been to side out the Piledriver and maybe Kiki Jiki. For some reason I still sometimes think pro-blue is relevant against devler, even though the insect flies.


Against Affinity I'd leave them in too. I take out a number of Vials or Ringleaders. The deal is, if you have 4 manas to cast a Ringleader, then it means you destroyed their board, because otherwise you'd be dead. In that scenario, a Lackey would have a chance of connecting T2-4, sealing the game.

I actually thought for quite a while about this one. On one hand, Lackey provides a potentially explosive start. On the other, Vial lets me cast my removal with my mana and still cast creatures to apply pressure. I eventually decided that Vial had the bigger potential upside than trading my Lackey for one of his Memnites, or worse, using it as a chump blocker.

I've never actually considered siding out Ringleader, but you make a convincing argument. In the future, I'll probably try -2 Vial, -1 Ringleader.


Against Elves I'd keep it in also. You're not winning by card advantage, neither from Affinity. You are the control, as you said, but there is the point of the game where you swich gears and kill them in 2 turns. You need Lackey there.
Also, against Elves, if you lead with Lackey, they HAVE to block and trade T1. If you have ANY removal, or follow with Instigator, then you just win.

Here I definitely agree that I made a mistake. I should have kept the Lackey and cut a Vial. This was actually part of the reason I lost game 3 - if I had T1 Lackey instead of T1 Vial it would have gone differently.


Against Mav imo you did right, but could consider bringing it in again on the play.

I did consider it, but I eventually judged the extra removal and artifact hate to be better. If I were to play this match again, I would probably cut some number of Vial and keep some Lackeys in.

[ScatmanX]

I see your point here. A better choice would probably have been to side out the Piledriver and maybe Kiki Jiki.
Yeah, kiki was probably the right choice here! =]

[markbris]

Ok so the tournament on tuesday kinda crapped out, i only played two matches, beating Thopterfoundry and losing to deadguy. Even with the limited playing time I wasn't really happy with the build so I switched over to one thats just about the same as Mantis but only 20 lands. Monored cuz I have to pickup badlands tomorrow for SCG.

I played last night in a better local tourney and went 4-0 with the new build beating two crap decks, high tide, and a landstill with a boatload of removal. Few things I learned:

1) Instigator and Chieftain are better than I was thinking. Def sticking with this build for SCG sunday.

2) Instigator is probably as good or better against combo than piledriver imo. I was able to beat high tide 2-1 on the back of two turn four kills made possible by instigator.

3) I ran one sharpshooter and he was good, will be keeping him in with one in the board for tokens.

4) I'm also running 3 bolt and 1 tarfire, I think bolt is the stronger card overall just slightly and I've already hit Jace numerous times with it which is the biggest reason I want to keep it in. I'm running 1 tarfire though because I've already had a few situations where tutoring for tarfire woulda been nice.

5) This version at least grinded along really well, the landstill player had paths/stp/wrath plus snapcaster and I was able to just grind him out. I won the first game with 6 guys exiled.

6) I like Piledriver but he just feels really allin to me which seemed better back the last time I was playing but hes really only a beast with a group of dudes but alot of times I just dont want to send the whole group cuz if the piledriver gets nailed after attacks are declared, you can get blown out. I'd rather just grind it out so I've taken them all out.

The only thing I'm iffy on now is the manabase.

6 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
1 Swamp
1 Badlands

I'm going to run 2-3 weirdings md plus perish in the board. I want to be able to cast weirdings consistently against RUG as well as maverick. The problem I have tho is i feel like with this manabase it'll probably be a oneshot deal where I fetch and then the badlands gets wasted. I can fetch a basic but i've already run into the problem where I don't have any black cards in hand and it'd be better to just get a mountain, but i run the risk of drawing black cards after with no black mana.

I can't afford anymore than the one badlands right now though and doesnt look like I can borrow, so its either this manabase, this manabase -3 mountains +3 hovel's, or I could just go monored but I honestly feel like monored is weaker against the field.

I'm playing the legacy challenge tomorrow which is the lil 4 round side event to get a feel for it with the badlands. I might just put the hovel's in and see how it goes, and if it blows then fuck it I'll go monored. Thoughts?

[kombatkiwi]

Played in a small (4 round) event with goblins yesterday

22 Land
4 Port
4 Waste
X Mountain

4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Warchief
4 Chieftain
3 MWM
2 Mogg Fanatic
1 Siege Gang
2 Piledriver
1 Sharpshooter
4 Gempalm
1 Some other 1-of I can't even remember (Edit - Tuktuk Scrapper)

4 Aether Vial

Round 1 Goblins Mirror trolololo

I beat him both games by superior play, or something. Sharpshooter is key.

We play a few games for fun after and I give him a few pointers on how to play, and what hands to keep, because he hasn't used the deck much.
His deck is all-foil super pimp. Foil unhinged mountains, FBB badlands, foil everything goblins (except lackeys) - matrons are even foil 7th. Amazing. Dont forget foil ports and player reward wastelands. Sooo sexy. This guy also has an elves deck of the same pimp-level. He says his next task is RUG Delver pimp. Good luck to him!

Round 2 Hive Mind

Game one I get pacted
Game 2 I deny all his mana and attack him. He misplayed by fetching a nonbasic which I wastelanded.
Game 3 I'm denying his mana but my clock is not that quick. He resolves a show and tell. I put down goblin matron. He dropped Emrakul, so my matron found Stingscourger. I probably should've tried to mind trick him into conceding here because he only had one card left in hand - on my next turn my vial only had 1 counter on it and I didn't have a red source to play stingscourger. I get smacked by a flying spaghetti monster.

I sided in Skirk Prospector to help me pay for pact of the titan and I did search for it in game 2 just in case but it wasn't needed.

Round 3: Ruggy rug rug

I lose 2-0

In game one he just has all the efficient removal (forked bolt) for my stuff which renders my Gempalm shit so I can't kill his Insectile Ab - by the time I try to stabilize with matrons and so on my life total is already too low.

Game 2 he attacks with 2 goyfs and a flipped delver to put me to 1. I fart my hand of goblins onto the table and attack him with them all,

"How much damage is that?"
"No Idea!

He went to 1 life.

Round 4: TES

I win 2-0
Don't ask how
My opponent was almost completely new to the deck (borrowed it off someone on the day) so I'll put it down to play errors.
Game 2 was a laugh because he duressed me before going off and when he saw the sharpshooter in my hand he was visibly frustrated at not being able to win via empty the warrens. He went for diminishing returns with no mana floating and just a lotus petal in play with a storm count of about 9, but he drew nearly all lands in his 7 cards and conceded when I Pyroblasted his ponder.

I still don't feel like I'm playing the deck at 100% capacity.
I definitely want to MD a stingscourger because it's good at unflipping delvers, taking counters off scavenging ooze - it's just very useful in many situations.
Mogg fanatic was VERY good.

Despite the stingscourger disaster I would never play less than 4 ports and 4 waste because the mana-denial plan is far too important.
This means I will probably never play warren instigator (despite it being an appealing 2-drop) just because it's so hard to cast it. You need to be able to interact with the opponent's mana.

My sideboard was rubbish
It was like
For combo: remove gempalm, add goblins that attack, 1 chalice of the void, 1 pyroblast
For other decks: Nothing really

[RaZe]

Hi guys. Long time lurker, finally decided to be an active participant in the forums.

A long time supporter of Goblins, I've finally decided to take the format a bit more seriously outside of my group of friends and am planning to participate in some local tourneys. Reading thru both Goblin threads, I don't remember reading much about what would be the 'ideal' anti-storm combo build pre-board. The general consensus is the only way to win against combo pre-board is a fast goldfish. In a way I guess I'm asking which build in your opinions would have the most consistent fast finish ignoring combat and removal for the most part, and only having to really worry about early discard effects.

[markbris]

Went 4 and 3 at scg bham. The Md was beautiful; sb not so much. Lost to belcher, affinity, and forgemaster. Would have beat forgemaster but I had a play error that cost me game 3.

Edit: Report

Mana:
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Auntie's Hovel
2 Arid Mesa
1 Swamp
1 Badlands

Core:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Warren Instigator
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Siege Gang Commander
3 Warren Weirding
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Tarfire
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Total
60

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Perish
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Warren Weirding

Total
15

Round 1: Maverick

I don't remember a ton here other than he was playing the stoneforge version which is better against me imo because more than one equipment is usually a problem. I know game 3 I was able to get exactly lethal the turn before he woulda been dropping and equipping a jitte.

(2-1) 1-0 Overall

Round 2: RUG Piloted by Gerry T

Nothing hugely interesting here either. I brought in 2 perish as well as the extra weirding and REB. He boarded in at least 1x ancient grudge, that was weird. I was able to grind him out games 2 and 3 with alot of removal. I almost screwed myself I think the third game going a lil nuts with two wastelands on his volcanics but they left like really good spots. He ended up thoughtscouring his last red source so it worked out. I think its better just to ramp up our mana and get ringleaders online asap though.

(2-1) 2-0 Overall

Round 3: Affinity

Unfortunate matchup here, I don't feel like its terrible for me but its certainly not great. He was playing a blue/white version with thoughtcast, master of etherium, etched champion, and that white spell that lets you exile a creature for W if you have metalcraft. I made one mistake 1st game where he had multiple 1/1's in play and a ravager I believe. I matron'ed thinking tuktuk but chose sharpshooter instead to take care of the 1/1's. He had the removal spell which I was not aware of at the time and I proceeded to lose from there. Game 2 featured an etched champion wiht cranial plating.

(0-2) 2-1 Overall

Round 4: BGW Goodstuff

This deck was kinda like junk but without disruption. I saw heiarch's, mom's, stoneforge, bob's,. Apparently he had green sun zenith, liliana and KOTR but I didn't see any of them in the games.

Game 1 I mulligan to 6 and start with no one drop, he plays karakas and passes back. I drop instigator with two siege gangs in hand and a tarfire. He plays a land and drops stoneforge, I tarfire the stoneforge, double SCG and gg.

Game 2 He gets an earlyish jitte that I blow up with tuktuk and I fetch up another one cuz he gets batterskull as well. We end up with a gamestate of him with 2x sfm, 2 heirach, germtoken with skull equipped, I have couple matrons and chieftain with sharpshooter and siege gang, tuktuk,lackey in hand. I tick vial to 5, drop siege gang, play sharpshooter, ping sfm, throw a token at the other one, untap sharpshooter, ping the sfm again, then ping both heirachs. Swing with 2 tokens, 2 matrons, lackey, he blocks lackey, i shoot once with sharpshooter than again after lackey dies to kill it. he has empty board with crap in hand, gg.

(2-0) 3-1 Overall

Round 5: Belcher

Game 1 he ETW's for 12 dudes turn 1 i lose
Game 2 I board in chalices and extra sharpshooter, go to 6 looking for chalice, dont find one but hand with lackey, tuktuk, and a matron for a sharpshooter. I lackey and pass, he ETW's for 12, I lose. Drew chalice on my 2nd turn, sigh.

(0-2) 3-2 Overall

Round 6: Sneak and Show

Game 1 I mulligan to 5 because no red source and then no land. I have chieftain, weirding, fanatic maybe and lands. He ends up show and telling for progenitus like 3rd turn and I put chieftain in then weirding him. I draw two more chieftains and he had diddly.

Game 2 He opens with trinisphere wtf, i have a hand of two lackeys, two lands, weirding etc. I never drew a third land.

Game 3 I have a hand with weirding, perish, vial, fanatic, land, matron? He mull'ed to 5 I think. I get the vial down, start to go nuts when I plop my matron down and get chieftain, play it, preparing for ringleader shenanigans with vial next turn. He plays emrakul I expect with backup but he doesnt have it and weirding it. I swing in for big next turn and he had nothing his last turn.

Round 7: Forgemaster

Game 1: Goes back and forth but he eventually gets blightsteel out with a forgemaster. I have a chieftain and a couple other guys in play. I have weirding and gempalm and 4 mana. I gempalm the forgemaster but he responds using its abiility to sac itself for a lodestone golem which bones me. Blightsteel had lightning greaves on it so not anything else I coulda done.

Game 2: We kinda go along with me killing some stuff but not much pressure. He ends up with a wurmcoil and me at low life. I topdeck a ringleader which nets me 3 winstigators and someting else with a chieftain in play. I swing for a boatload and drop him down and then the same a turn later I believe. He kept back his wurmcoil but I think I weirding and had lethal anyways.

Game 3: He mulls to 4 and I go to 5. I have weirding, vial, matron land, land I think or something like that. We play draw go for a few turns with him only having ancient tomb and greaves out. I drop a matron with vial at 3, get a chieftain and play him with weirding, ringleader, maybe something else in hand. Pretty much planning to go nuts next turn. He topdecks a land, goes into metalworker which gets greaves which goes into forgemaster which gets blighsteel which gets greaves and kills me, pretty sick. If I had kept back the cheiftain I coulda absorbed 9 poison, weirding the blightsteel, ringlead and win comfortably probablhy. Oh well I was tired and to be honest him having that exact chain of plays didnt enter my mind at all.

I dropped after that as I had to get home, I coulda won one more and gotten in to top 32 but whatevs.

Thoughts:
1) Chieftain/Instigator setup was awesome. Instigator connected several times in key spots and i had them swinging for 6 at least a couple times. Chieftain is great because its still awesome if you already have several guys in play it still helps you alot as compared to warchief and I found you still have a ton of killing power without having to rely on piledrivers. I like how 1 of them plus any 1/1 is still as strong clock and anymore on top is just insane.

2) Weirding was great. It was solid against maverick and huge against forgemaster, sneak/show, and RUG.

3) Sharpshooter won the game against BWG but got sided out alot. I don't mind him being in there as a one of though, although I could see a 4th instigator or something instead.

4) I thought the manabase was going to be rickety but it was very very strong the whole day never had any problems getting black when I needed it. 20 lands was perfect, I think you have to mulligan a tiny bit more obviously but its worth it.

5) I never had to search up the tarfire but I like having it there in case as I have had some games locally where I wanted to do that
lately.

6) SB didnt factor in a ton. Perish was money against rug as I juts had too much removal for him as was the extra weirding in several matchups. I never drew it against maverick I don't believe. I also killed a progenitus with it against Show and Tell and could have killed another. The 2nd sharpshooter was meh. I drew REB against Show and tell and it woulda been good but I didnt need it. Scrapper came in alot because of stoneforge/affinity/forgemaster but its just so damn slow, it works, just slow and really still can't see two MD.

I never brought in leyline once as I didn't play any dredge or reanimator or anything. I might go lower to like 3 crypt or something because along with fanatics and stuff I can't imagine its that awful for me.

I only brought in chalice against Belcher and I didn't draw it so whatever. It did win me a game against burn the night before where I got it down 1 and 2. I didn't bring it in against affinity as he didn't seem to have that many 0 drops or 1 drops and its just so dead once he plays out his hand the 1st few turns. I'd rather just have removal against rug.

So I thought the maindeck was pretty much perfect and you should give it a try if you're expecting RUG, maverick, show/tell, dredge, esperblade etc. For the SB like i I said I might go to like 3 crypt and I'd be tempted to take out chalice altogether and roll like a 2nd REB and 3 shattering spree and just say fuck it to combo and try to race burn. I still love the deck and had a great time playing it. It's pretty sick dropping chieftain and swinging for like 18.

I also played the legacy challenge the night before going 3-1, beating burn (locked him out with chalice game 2 and raced him game 1), UR Delver, Stiflenought variant, and losing to hive mind who waltzed over me.

[GoboLord]

Sulfuric Vortex vs. My Meta

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/sc/106.jpg

Hey fellow Warchiefs,

I’ve attended the monthly legacy tourney which was also a trial for the Bazaar-of-Moxen event in Annecy.
Short story at the start: I had an earworm the whole day that I wanted to share with you. I found it really cool to have that song on my mind while playing. Here ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAPYk_C2ZZU&feature=relmfu) its is. (For those of you who do NOT play League of Legends, just ignore the evil, yellow robot and listen to the music with your eyes closed).

Event: monthly Legacy Tournament
Location: Iserlohn, Germany
Players: 89
Result: 5-1-1 after 7 rounds of swiss

My decklist

//Lands [21]
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
14 Mountains

//Creature [22]
4 G. Lackey
4 G. Piledriver
4 G. Warchief
4 G. Matron
4 G. Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Removal [9]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Tarfire
2 Stingscourger

//Others [9]
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Null Rod
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 G. Sharpshooter
2 Anarchy
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Round 1: Fabian with BUG Deedstill


Aww, dude. I hope you are not playing Goblins today. I hate Goblins. My deck has a bad Goblin match-up.

He opened with Inquisition of Kozilek to see whats going on. My mulligan 6 was:
Lackey, Vial, Piledriver, MWM, Mountain, Wasteland. He took Lackey and passed. Game 1 he collapsed under the pressure of Mogg War Marshal + Piledriver that were sponsored by Aether Vial.

IN: 3 Sulfuric Vortex
OUT: 1 MWM, 1 Tarfire, 1 Stingscourger

In game 2 I had double Vial and some dudes staring at a Tarmogoyf, Jace and Pernicious Deed. He made a terrible mistake when he blew his Deed without bouncing Tarmogoyf with Jace. My board was empty, however I was on 20 life. His Jace was brainstorming every turn, but unable to find any creature. So essentially any Goblin with haste or any direct-damage spell would mean that he loses, unless he has a removal or countermagic. He had constantly 6-7 cards in hand and was dropping a land each turn. So I had to play 2 threats in one turn (assuming that the first one would get countered). With 6 lands untapped he played FoW hardcast for my Ringleader. Sulfuric Vortex resolved. Fatality (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTyIKnRQdx0).

I guess that this MU would have been slightly worse for me if he had played a little more self-secure.

1-0-0 (2-0)

Round 2: Tim (aka wh4tever) with Uwbg Control feat. Deed and CB-Top


Hmm. I hope you are not playing Storm-Combo today. (gazes at “Mountain, Lackey, Go.”) Ughh… Goblins…I have 0 SB cards against Goblins…

In game 1 I started with Lackey, which got StoP-ed. Vial resolves and won me the game through Counterbalance + Top.

IN[/I: 3 Sulfuric Vortex, 1 Tuktuk
[I]OUT: 2 Lightning Bolt, 1 Tarfire, 1 Stingscourger

In game 2 I had a total nuts-draw. I beat him to 1 on turn 3. On his turn 4 he blew his previously played Deed to kill my guys. Same situation as in Round1: any haster or any damage spell would win me the game. However, he improved his board-state with CB, Top and Abyssal Persecutor (!), while I drew nothing but lands. Fair deal. I took a risk when I went all-out against a Pernicious Deed to bring him on 1 life. It didn’t work out. Who cares?

In game 3 he kept his 7 that (which I later figured out) couldn’t handle neither Lackey nor Vial. He had a Pernicious Deed on turn 3, which was too slow for my turn-4-kill.

I would say that this MU was quite easy, since he didn’t have any significant hate against Goblins (or aggro in general).

2-0-0 (4-1)

Round 3: Jerome with Esperblade

I don’t want to talk about game 1. He was very unlucky with mulligan to 4, while I had..well it doesn’t matter. He lost – not due to my skill.

IN: 3 Sulfuric Vortex, 1 Tuktuk Scrapper, 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
OUT: 1 MWM, 1 Bolt, 2 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Piledriver

In game 2 He was unable to counter my Vial. Double Wasteland and one Rishadan Port did their worst to cut him off W.
After the games I apologized and affirmed that I know how this MU normally plays out and that I normally have to work hard for my results. I also decided that my luck-container was empty for today…

3-0-0 (6-1)

Round 4: Daniel with Comboelves.

The short-cut: He had 3 lands, 1 Heritage Druid and Viridian Zealot in play. He played Summoner’s Pact @ Elvish Archdruid, which he played and passed. I Tarfir-ed his and SING ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xsDdIByh8A)scourger-ed both of his Druids. With 3 lands in play he can’t pay the upkeep cost of his previously played Pact.

IN: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter, 3 Chalice of the Void
OUT: 4 Goblin Lackey

In game 2 I mulled to 5 and kept: 2 Wasteland, 1 Port, 1 Sharphooter, 1 Vial. On turn 3 I drew Chalice of the Void, which I promptly set @ 1. To this point I had the following cards in play: 1 Vial (@2), 2 Wastelands, 1 Port and Chalice @ 1. On his turn he had 1 Nettle Sentinel, 1 Priest of Titania and 3 Forests in play. He played Summoner’s Pact…then I could read from his facial expression that the painful loss of game 1 came to his mind---he must have thought something like “I need a mana-producing Elf. In case he blows my Titania I can still pay the pact.” He came to the conclusion that Heritage Druid would be the best solution with Chalice @ 1 in play. On my turn I drew a Mountain, vial-ed in Matron, took Facepalm ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA06Z5e1ZFc) Incinerator to end this game.

Seriously…Losing 2 games in row to the SAME move? Apparently my luck-container was not empty yet.
http://www10.pic-upload.de/23.04.12/k3o7vvwexm8.jpg (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-13893796/Luck-Container.jpg.html)

4-0-0 (8-1)
Round 5 Alex with NicFit feat. PunishingGroves


I have seriously no idea how this MU play out. I’m looking forward to see how our decks interact.

I knew his deck beforehand because he played against a friend of mine (I am the brainwasher) in round 4. Ruffy (I am the brainwasher) and me talked about possible boarding plans for this MU. The point of debate was wether to side in 4 Leyline (to counter Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy, Kitchen Finks, Punishing Fire and Eternal Witness) or 3 Sulfuric Vortex (to deal some early damage and then stall the game out). We decided that Leyline wold be better since it affected 50% of his deck and robbed all of it’s synergistic ability. Furthermore we were agreed that Sulfuric Vortex would be too risky with recurring Punishing Fires

In game 1 I was able to deal some early damage , while double Stingscourger kept Veteran Explorer from ramping his deck to glory. The game ended although his Scavenging ooze restored some of his lifepoints.

Short break
I was doing my boarding as I always do it: Shuffle my whole sideboard into my maindeck and then pick the least useful 15 cards to form my sideboard. While doing this I force myself to evaltuate the usefulness of every card in the present MU.
While doing this I suddenly realized something awesome.

Kitchenfinks - When Kitchen Finks enters the battlefield, you gain 2 life.
Scavenging Ooze – Exile target card from a graveyard. If it was a creature card, put a +1/+1 counter on Scavenging Ooze and you gain 1 life
And most importantly….
Punishing Fire - Whenever an opponent gains life, you may pay {R}. If you do, return Punishing Fire from your graveyard to your hand.
…
Whenever an opponent gains life.
…
gains life.

http://webtrax.hu/myfacewhen/faces/lineart-memes/mother-of-god.jpg

IN: 3 Sulfuric VOrtex
OUT: 1 MWM, 1 Tarfire, 1 Gempalm Incinerator

Well...I did have some Sufulric Vortex. Unfortunately 3 Perniscious Deed (sponsored by 2 Eternal Witness) were quite effective too. Three minutes before the time-out he beat me. The game ended in a draw.

This matchup is very exciting. I never felt really helpless since my decklist qas quite tuned to disrupt his synergistic lines of play. Furthermore I find his deck very cool and I bet it’s totally fun to play it. Alex got what he deserved: He won the tourney unbeaten with 6-0-1.

4-0-1 (9-1)

Round 6: Fabian with Punishing Maverick

In game 1 I was aggressively killing his mana-dudes and wasting his duals. However, that’s not why he lost this game. He drew only lands. His 4 spells in game 1 were Birds of Paradise, GSZ and 2 Punishing Fire.

IN: 3 Sulfuric Vortex, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Tuktuk
OUT: 4 Goblin Lackey, 1 Tarfire

He started with Savannah, GSZ --> Dryad Arbor
I played a Mountain, Vial and passed (1 Piledriver,1 MWM, 1 Bolt, Ringleader and 1 Waste in hand).
He played Grove of Burnwillows and played + sacced Qasali Pridemage @ my Vial. Meh…
the following play won me the game. I had to decide between the following two lines of play:
(1) play a Piledriverand pass. However, in this case he would have had 3-4 mana on his turn and I was almost certain that he would be able to play at least 1 critical creature and give a f**k on my Piledriver.
(2) play Lightning Bolt @ Dryad Arbor and Waste his Savannah. This would mean that I had the risk of being stuck on 1 mountain. However, this would also mean that we were evenly sitting on 1 land.
As I already said: On of this lines won me the game. I want to leave this point open for discussion, cause I’m curious what you would have done.


After I’ve seen my opening hand I didn’t expect that you would win this one…

5-0-1 (11-1)

Round 7: Frank with TES


I offer you a draw.

Thanks, but NO thanks.

I didn’t accept his kind offer for the following reasons:
(1) I thought he was playing Dredge, which seems quite doable to me.
(2) The price-payout in Iserlohn is always very good. So it wouldn’t matter what place I ended, my price would be good anyways.
(3) There was not cut to top-8, which meant that there was no need for strategically planning.

What can I say? I got what I deserved. Game 1 was over on turn 2.

IN: 4 Leylines, 3 Chalice, 1 Null Rod, 1 Sharpshooter, 1 Tuktuk
OUT: 4 Vial, 3 GI, 2 Stinger, 1 Ringleader

In game 2 I had 2 Chalices, but 0 pressure. He had 2 Echoing Truth and 7 (!!!) lands, which made going off quite easy.

5-1-1 (11-3)

Sooooo…. What did I learn?

* Sulfuric Vortex was sided in in 5 out of 7 MUs. This card didn’t actually land too often, but it IS a beast.
* Goblins are competive. I went to the tourney to get a good picture of how Gobs are positioned in the meta. Iserlohn is a highly competitive field with a very diverse meta and many very good players. I don’t want to conclude that my result is totally due to my skill and/or my deck (as you could read, LUCK was a important factor on that day). However, being unbeaten for 6 rounds is quite something.
* Sadly I was unable to play against Candian Threshold, RU-Delverburn, Dredge and Esperblade – all of which I expected to see I quite high numbers.
* Tarfire will be cut. Either for Stingscourger#3 or Lightning Bolt #4. I originally included Tarfire as a 1-of to be able to fetch it with Matron, when Vortex is in play. I thought this might be relevant...however I actually found myself boarding this card OUT in those MUs where I sided in Vortex.

After the tourney we chit-chatted a bit about the future meta (post AVR). We concluded that “miracle-cards” would be abusive only in control-decks (UWx feat. Miracle-Wrath and miracle-Timewalk). We then concluded that, to make room for them, those deck might focus more on board-control and cut some countermagic.
Now, guys, imagine that: less countermagic in control decks vs. Goblins feat. Cavern of Souls

I am SOOOO looking forward to this.

I'd like to get some feedback on my question regarding game 6.2.

[BigBopper]

the following play won me the game. I had to decide between the following two lines of play:
(1) play a Piledriverand pass. However, in this case he would have had 3-4 mana on his turn and I was almost certain that he would be able to play at least 1 critical creature and give a f**k on my Piledriver.
(2) play Lightning Bolt @ Dryad Arbor and Waste his Savannah. This would mean that I had the risk of being stuck on 1 mountain. However, this would also mean that we were evenly sitting on 1 land.
As I already said: On of this lines won me the game. I want to leave this point open for discussion, cause I’m curious what you would have done.


Play the bolt and waste the savannah. Piledirvers pro blue doesn't do a thing vs. maverick, 'cause they don't have blue creatures and being X/2 means, that every removal they have kills him right away. also piledriver is nothing alone on the board, but easy to handle.
Wracking his manabase means he either has to spent quite much spells for his ramp (GSZ, Hirach, Bird) or draw and play lands, if he got any. So chances are better to attack the manabase.
Even if he has a second land and plays pridemage/ooze/SFM whatever you can answer it with Tarfire/Bolt, even with one mountain.

Thanks for the reports, guys. Special thanks to gobbolord for his thoughts he had during the game and shared with us and the initiation of this discussion.

[I am the brainwasher]

Sulfuric Vortex vs. My Meta

Short break
I was doing my boarding as I always do it: Shuffle my whole sideboard into my maindeck and then pick the least useful 15 cards to form my sideboard. While doing this I force myself to evaltuate the usefulness of every card in the present MU.
While doing this I suddenly realized something awesome.

Kitchenfinks - When Kitchen Finks enters the battlefield, you gain 2 life.
Scavenging Ooze – Exile target card from a graveyard. If it was a creature card, put a +1/+1 counter on Scavenging Ooze and you gain 1 life
And most importantly….
Punishing Fire - Whenever an opponent gains life, you may pay {R}. If you do, return Punishing Fire from your graveyard to your hand.
…
Whenever an opponent gains life.
…
gains life.

http://webtrax.hu/myfacewhen/faces/lineart-memes/mother-of-god.jpg

IN: 3 Sulfuric VOrtex


That was priceless:laugh:.
Who would have thought, that while searching for an answer for the Stoneblade MU, a solution for the better part for the meta was found more or less coincedentally.
That day was just awesome.

PS:
I've red that a player presented his naked butt (on which was written "WTF") to his opponent and got DQ'ed right after that. I guess drunken Burn-players tend to do those things from time to time...:laugh:.

[ScatmanX]

Game 2 He gets an earlyish jitte that I blow up with tuktuk and I fetch up another one cuz he gets batterskull as well. We end up with a gamestate of him with 2x sfm, 2 heirach, germtoken with skull equipped, I have couple matrons and chieftain with sharpshooter and siege gang, tuktuk,lackey in hand. I tick vial to 5, drop siege gang, play sharpshooter, ping sfm, throw a token at the other one, untap sharpshooter, ping the sfm again, then ping both heirachs. Swing with 2 tokens, 2 matrons, lackey, he blocks lackey, i shoot once with sharpshooter than again after lackey dies to kill it. he has empty board with crap in hand, gg.
I love this moves, where they have lots of stuff on the board, but suddenly, in 1 turn, goblins just wipe the crap out of it. Congrats there.

@ GobboLord:
Thanks for the report too.
On the situation you presented, I'd do the Bolt+Waste thing. I can't see Piledriver going to distance there.

Do you think Vortex is worth against non-P.Fire-Maverick? My matches usually play out like this: I take a bunch of dmg (10-12), stabilize, then start getting in for some, and win in 2 turns. Don't really see Vortex working out in that line of play...

[GoboLord]

Do you think Vortex is worth against non-P.Fire-Maverick? My matches usually play out like this: I take a bunch of dmg (10-12), stabilize, then start getting in for some, and win in 2 turns. Don't really see Vortex working out in that line of play...

Absolutely not. Vortex is crap vs GW maverick. For this MU actually have Anarchy.

[RaZe]

I woulda gone with the mana denial plan too. Goblins are good at cheating in their creatures. You a piloting a warcheif build with 21 lands.

[jrw1985]

Tournament Report

Decklist

1x Stingscourger
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Goblin Piledriver
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
3x Mogg Fanatic
4x Goblin Chieftain
3x Warren Instigator
1x Tuktuk Scrapper

2x Tarfire
2x Pyrokinesis

16x Mountain
4x Wasteland

4x AEther Vial

Sideboard

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Anarchy
1 Chaos Warp

R1 BWU Thopter Swords
G1 We both mull to 5. I keep a hand of Fanatic and 4 lands. Since I have the lands and I'm on the play I think that Fanatic might be able to get there. Well, I topdeck like 5 more lands so I'm not able to put an offense together. Once he has the Thopter combo and a Humility in play I pack em up.
SB - Chaos Warp, Anarchy, REB, and Surgical Extraction all come in. Stingscourger, Gempalms, Tarfire, and a few Ringleaders come out.
G2 T1 Lackey. He plays a T1 Tundra. I T2 Waste it and cheat a Seige-Gang into play. W.
G3 He plays a T1 tundra and does nothing with it. I T1 Waste it. No response. He plays a fetch T2. I play Mountain and Lackey. Lackey starts connecting and I get a board position going. He plays an Enlightened Tutor at my end step to put an Engineered Plague on top. I've been holding onto a Surgical so I remove a Brainstorm from his grave and shuffle the Plague back in. I land a Kiki Jiki and a Tuktuk and run the board after that. I did make one mistake when I had him dead on the board. He was at 7 life and I had an active Sharpshooter and Siege-Gang Commander and 4 mana open. I thought I could only do 6 damage (sac, sharp, sac, sharp) when I could have done the full 7 (sharp, sac, sharp, sac, sharp). Keep that in mind if you use Sharpshooter. He deals 1 more damage than you think he does.
1-0

R2 ANT w Past in Flames
I don't know what they're calling this deck these games, but it's basically ANT with a few Volcanic Islands and 1 Past in Flames.
G1 I win the roll and am on the play. Last round went pretty late so I haven't had a chance to scout. My opponent hasn't been to the shop in a long time, so I have no idea what he's on. He used to play ANT, Merfolk, and Bant, so I'm thinking he's probably on RUG since I've most recently seen him play a deck with FoW. My opening hand has Vial and Lackey. Since I'm thinking RUG I go the slower route and cast T1 Vial. He plays T1 Polluted Delta, Fetches into a basic Island, and Ponders. Whoops. I've clearly misread, but he mulled to 6 this game so I might still have a chance. I get him down to ten and will win next turn when he goes off. Had I led with Lackey, and considering that he had a slow start on a mull to 6, it was a game I could have won. I probably should have gone for broke and led with Lackey.
There's a lot of discussion on this forum about whether to lead with Vial or Lackey. I just want to point out that Lackey is always your best play against storm combo. I really screwed the pooch by leading with Vial this game.
Sideboard - 4 Mindbreak, 2 Chalice, 2 REB, 2 Surgical - took out Pyro, Sharpshooter, Stingscourger, Vial.
G2 On the play I open on a hand with 1 Mountain, Winstigator, and 2 Chalice. Seems good. i just need to topdeck 1 mountain and we're good to go. I play T1 Chalice at 0. He Ponders. I miss a 2nd land drop. He makes me discard Chalice #2. It takes a few turns but I finally get a 2nd Mountain and play Winstigator. My opponent starts blanking on his draws and I somehow manage the win. Chalice at 0 is always the way to go against decks trying to abuse LED.
G3 I open on a hand with Lackey and Mindbreak Trap. Trap gets Duressed and Lackey starts connecting. He manages to go off before I can kill him or draw more hate.
1-1

R3
Burn
I lose both games pretty easily. Terrible MU. When I was building my SB the night before I kept thinking about siding in a Keeper of Kookus as a tutorable answer to Goblin Guide, but ultimately opted for Chaos Warp over it. I don't think Keeper is even that good of a card against Burn, but there aren't many other answers. MWM would have been good here but I've been playing Mogg Fantics instead. Maybe a 2/2 split of Leyline of Sanctity and Mindbreak Trap would have been a better option. Stupid Burn being a real deck.

[ScatmanX]

I kept thinking about siding in a Keeper of Kookus as a tutorable answer to Goblin Guide, but ultimately opted for Chaos Warp over it.
Wow! 3 Reports!
too bad I was too drunk and managed to miss my tournament =(

Tarfire and Gempalm boh do the trick here. Guide is a Goblin, so you only need 1 guy to burn it donw...

[Davran]

Tarfire and Gempalm boh do the trick here. Guide is a Goblin, so you only need 1 guy to burn it donw...

So I never actually realized that Gempalm counts goblins in play, not goblins in play that you control.

Pro tip kids: reading cards wins games.

As for Goblin Guide...it's never really a problem for me. What usually gets me is the Fireblast that they always have. As soon as I think to myself "well this line is ok unless he has a Fireblast"...I know that he has the Fireblast.

I usually side in my Thorns of Amethyst against burn...it's not the greatest thing ever, but it does slow them down. Seems like Chalice @ 1 would be fantastic here too, even though it disrupts our game plan. I feel like we are the control in the burn match-up anyway.

You could always go for the "left field" approach and run Dragon's Claw in the sideboard. You can bet that no one will see that one coming...

[GoboLord]

My opening hand has Vial and Lackey. Since I'm thinking RUG I go the slower route and cast T1 Vial.

That is true. I don't know why but I feel that turn 1 vial is better than T1 most of the times. The thing is: I can't name why - it's only my intuition. We seldomly have the luxury of having BOTH T1-drops in my opening hand, but whenever this is the case I somehow feel like Vial is...more secure...maybe?
I don't know why. Can someone tell me? (and please don't start over a discussion of pro's and con's of both cards - we know them all. I like to know why Vial feels better most of the times in direct comparison)

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I like to know why Vial feels better most of the times in direct comparison)

It's 3 points for me:

1. There are a lot more answers to lackey then to vial so vial is more reliable

2. vial at 1 can still eot cheat a dangerous lackey into play if your opponent did not prepare

3. Because of the ticking vial profits a lot from being played first turn. You want your vial at 3, at wich point it outperforms the lackey imho.


I like cavern of souls btw :)
[edit]Hmm... but the creature spells restriction is really nasty. Would be a bomb without it though.

[joemauer]

Hey guys. I don't usually play goblins, but I did Saturday at the SCG grinder.
There were thirty something people at it and I have no idea how I placed. Went 3-1 and got six packs of dark ascension. Borrowed 4eak's deck, standard G/W list.
Here is a tiny report:

Round One(Hive Mind, same guy who top four'd Sunday at the main event):

Game one: I apply some quick pressure and intuitions into show and tell. He plays show and tell and my singleton Stingscourer trumps his Emmy. :)
Game two: He casts Show and Tell, I REB and then forces back. It resolves and I lose to his slaughter pact.
Game Three: I keep playing lackeys first gets forced. Around turn four, I have a Lackey, two Mogg Fanatics, and a Warchief in play. I was going to bring the pain next turn. He show and Tells on his turn, me laying down Stingscourer and him Hive Mind. He plays a slaughter pact targeting my warchief. I use my copy to target one of my fanatics and sac to fizzle my spell. He only had two Islands and City of Traitors in play so he tries to Force his own Slaughter Pact, but I just use my force copy to counter his force. He loses to his pact.

Round 2(maverick or maybe junk):
Game One: I play a Lackey. He plays MoM. I turn two kill his MoM with Gempalm. He can't keep up after my Lackey connects.
Game two: Went on for a while due to his Scavenging Ooze. I just keep chump blocking until I am able to play like a dozen goblins because of a couple ringleaders I got my Matron. I win.

Round 3(affinity):
Game one: I keep a sketchy hand. It has a lackey and I thought every hand with lackey is great even if it has five lands. He does what affinity should do against a bad goblins player and kills me quickly.
Game two: He tries to dispatch my lackey on his turn two, and I gempalm one of his Memnites in response. Next turn I Mogg fanatic his other Memnite and waste one of his lands. He is then stuck with a land and two springleaf drums. I get there somehow.
Game three: I can't answer his fast with all my Krosan Grips. I lose pretty quickly. Pro Tip: Piledriver can easily block a Master of Etherium. This probably would have helped me if I did so.

Round four(fauna shaman maverick):
Game one: Lackey connects. That is the only important note.
Game two: I kill his two MoMs with a decoy Gempalm backed with a Pryokenesis. I win quickly.

So there you have it. I haven't played goblins since it was legal in Standard. So if I can be successful with it I am pretty sure anyone can.

Side note: Caverns wouldn't have made a lick of a difference in the matches I played. Port was usually only Wasteland Bait. Port only remotely helped versus the Hive Mind player.

[jrw1985]

That is true. I don't know why but I feel that turn 1 vial is better than T1 most of the times. The thing is: I can't name why - it's only my intuition. We seldomly have the luxury of having BOTH T1-drops in my opening hand, but whenever this is the case I somehow feel like Vial is...more secure...maybe?
I don't know why. Can someone tell me? (and please don't start over a discussion of pro's and con's of both cards - we know them all. I like to know why Vial feels better most of the times in direct comparison)

If I have Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief I'm going to want to start with the Vial because I know I can use it each turn. If I start with Lackey it will most likely be burned or countered. If I lead with Vial it can only be countered, so you're more likely to make T1 Vial stick. Basically, having a Vial and a ramping hand basically means you're going to get to maximize the Vial against creature-based decks. Against combo decks you don't have time to maximize the use of Vial, you just need the speed of Lackey. The problem with being on the play G1 is that you won't know which play is correct unless you've been able to scout your opponent, or he gives up some information while shuffling, setting-up, mulliganing (whatever).

[GoblinSettler]

If I have Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief I'm going to want to start with the Vial because I know I can use it each turn. If I start with Lackey it will most likely be burned or countered. If I lead with Vial it can only be countered, so you're more likely to make T1 Vial stick. Basically, having a Vial and a ramping hand basically means you're going to get to maximize the Vial against creature-based decks. Against combo decks you don't have time to maximize the use of Vial, you just need the speed of Lackey. The problem with being on the play G1 is that you won't know which play is correct unless you've been able to scout your opponent, or he gives up some information while shuffling, setting-up, mulliganing (whatever).

Facing an unknown opposing deck, I like to lead with Lackey. My thinking is that Lackey will get there or draw a counter so that Vial sticks. Both outcomes work for me.

[ScatmanX]

Facing an unknown opposing deck, I like to lead with Lackey. My thinking is that Lackey will get there or draw a counter so that Vial sticks. Both outcomes work for me.
As much as I prefer going with Vial, against unknown player I usually go with Lackey too.
Also, if he does not know you, he may no be prepared to a T1 Lackey, and just lose.

@joemauer: Congrats on the finish!
How did you feel piloting the deck? Will this became a regular thing?
Also, didn't knew 4eak had a goblins.

[jrw1985]

Facing an unknown opposing deck, I like to lead with Lackey. My thinking is that Lackey will get there or draw a counter so that Vial sticks. Both outcomes work for me.

Against an unknown deck I'd agree that Lackey is the way to go, just because it forces them to have an answer. I didn't lead with Lackey here specifically because I thought my opponent was playing RUG, which was clearly a mistake on my part.

[joemauer]

@joemauer: Congrats on the finish!
How did you feel piloting the deck? Will this became a regular thing?
Also, didn't knew 4eak had a goblins.

I really just felt like playing with a deck radically different. I was certainly rusty with it.

Goblins is more optimal in the current meta game than I thought it would be. However, I like combo decks too much to pick this deck up again any time soon. It was a fun diversion.

[movingtonewao]

cedric phillips just wrote an article on starcity about how cavern of souls is a trap for goblin players. For those who have read it, what do you guys think?

[mrblueduck]

cedric phillips just wrote an article on starcity about how cavern of souls is a trap for goblin players. For those who have read it, what do you guys think?

Phillip addresses the misconception that an uncounterable turn 1 lackey will dominate Legacy, which it obviously will not. He states and I agree, that Lackey isnt really countered all that much. However he only focuses on how it opens Goblin players to wasteland and Pop. He literally addresses no reason to like it. Now I don't know if its lazy writing or he is simply doesn't like the card, but it does mana fix and does make goblins played later in the game uncounterable. I am not saying the land is amazing, but it certainly isn't all down side like the author claims it to be.

[liamb]

cedric phillips just wrote an article on starcity about how cavern of souls is a trap for goblin players. For those who have read it, what do you guys think?

I don't know if Cavern of Souls would be good. But the writer just focused on turn one play (Goblin Lackey). He didn’t point that it helps to hardcast key creatures like matron and ringleader (we can't always rely on lackey). Sure that by playing this land we are more exposed to wasteland. But by this aren’t we accomplish our mana denial plan? It’s really hard to tell now how would the Avacyn Restored affect on legacy. If blue decks would start to dominate the meta why this card would be bad?

[BigBopper]

I can see some points of what he's saying. Usually it's not necessary countermagic we loose to. I mean in a meta full of Canadian, goblins is a bad matchup, while we're actually having a rough time playing creature based decks like Maverick.

Cavern of Souls gets a big point from me for being able to cast TSH without a Taiga and without seeing a Spell Pierce, which is really important these days especially with all that blades running around.

Of course he's right about the manabase. That's what got discussed here the last 10 pages: play a monored deck without duals and fetches to not get affected by wasteland and stifle. But if we struggle with savannah based decks it is a must to splash black and play perish/virtue's ruin! And in this case you need to open your manabase either way.

with that being said, I mean cavern of souls is must have and improves our MU vs. blue decks.

[Mantis]

@GoboLord: It depends against what you are up. Against decks that have no answer to Lackey, always open with Lackey as these decks are typically combo-esque decks and you need the fastest clock available (combo and Hive Mind). Against Maverick, RUG and EsperBlade: always open with Vial. They have too many answers to Lackey and dropping Vial the turn after will result in Vial losing a lot of it's power. The only exception would be against a deck with no 1 cmc removal when you have Lackey, a powerful goblin and removal for their threat. As a general rule of thumb I would just abide to always open with Vial unless you are up against a fast deck.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I totally agree with mantis. If you have the choice against an unknown deck, alsways open with vial since the majority of legacy decks will have an answer to turn 1 lackey.

About Cavern of Souls: The main drawback here is the creature spell restriction. It only really helps the tin-street-hooligan.

[GoboLord]

First of all,
thank you guys for sharing your thoughts with me on the question about Lackey and Vial. You really helped me out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
On a different note I want to start a discussion about what BigBopper wrote (and what everyone seem to be thinking right now).


Cavern of Souls gets a big point from me for being able to cast TSH without a Taiga and without seeing a Spell Snare, which is really important these days especially with all that blades running around.

What I can read here is that there is a consensus that Tuktuk Scrapper ans Tin Street Hooligan are effective ways to deal with equipments.
I must say that I strongly disagree here and I want to explain myself.

When we are pondering about how to deal with those worrisome matchups (like Maverick and UWx Stoneblade) we can't help but figure out that those equipments are cards that give us hard times.
So we perceive equipments as being the troublemakers and try to find ways to get rid of them. Those ways are usually artifact-haters like Tuktuk and TSH. I don't want to argue that those cards can destroy Batterskull and Jitte (because it's literally written on them) BUT I can argue that they are not the most effective way to deal with equipments. It appears to me that we stop searching for answers as soon as we have found one. However, Tuktuk and TSH are not very GOOD answers to equipments.
I personally find it way more effective to deal with their creatures immediately (especially SFM of course) and then keep artifact hate as some sort of emergency botton. Tuktuk and TSH bear several risks that I dn't want to take:
They must stay on your hand until the equipment in question is on the battlefield. the thing is that with SFM equipments will oftentimes enter the battlefield at EOT. The problem here is, that TSH and Tuktuk usually don't have flash. This in turn means that Jitte and Batterskull wil oftentimes get "online" (i.e. the equipped creature will be able to attack and therefore trigger the equipment's triggered abilities) BEFORE Tuktuk and TSH are able to touch them. On top of that this makes them more vulnerable to discard-spells. Am I the only one who finds this thought unattractive? Probably not! So why do we keep thinking that Tuktuk and TSH will seal the deal? Answer: Because we are constantly overlooking alternatives and we insist and reinforce each other that Tuktuk and TSH indeed are effective answers (which they aren't).
So what's my suggestion? I'd go for more removal to kill SFM as reliably as possible. Yeah...I know what you might be thinking now: "but we DO have removal and we DO target SFM as often as possible". I know. However it seems to me that removal is a bit underrated and that we don't necessarily choose the best removal here. We must treat spotremoval as THE GOLDEN CARDS for this MU. I consider every spotremoval to be more worth than Tuktuk CRAPper. Remmoval has several advantages over artifact hate.
* removal-cards are rarely dead cards
* removal removes the creature (read: the BLOCKER) that could carry Jitte
* removal does not have to wait until equipments come into play (get "online")
* removal (when targetet at mana-guys or SFM) forces your opponents to CAST their equipments. This gives you higher chances on getting them with your artifact hate
* removal (at least in Goblins) can usually be played as an instant (which adds to the flexibility that Tuktuk and TSH never have)

So, what does this mean for deckconstruction?
* don't run artifact hate in MD. play MORE removal instead. I think that we should not run less than 9 removal-spells in MD
* don't overrate artifacte hate
* don't underestimate the value of spotremoval

Discuss!

[Avatara]

About Cavern of Souls: The main drawback here is the creature spell restriction. It only really helps the tin-street-hooligan.
That's like saying: the only thing Cavern of Souls does is mana fixing.

In my opinion in order to become tier one we need to be able to have 80%-20% match-ups vs at least one tier one deck. In the past this was true (see counter top and maybe even merfolk at certain times). With the inclusion of Cavern of Souls I hope that we once again get to crush them consistently, and earn our spot in the paper, rock scissors system.

[BigBopper]

On a different note I want to start a discussion about what BigBopper wrote (and what everyone seem to be thinking right now).


What I can read here is that there is a consensus that Tuktuk Scrapper ans Tin Street Hooligan are effective ways to deal with equipments.
I must say that I strongly disagree here and I want to explain myself.

When we are pondering about how to deal with those worrisome matchups (like Maverick and UWx Stoneblade) we can't help but figure out that those equipments are cards that give us hard times.
So we perceive equipments as being the troublemakers and try to find ways to get rid of them. Those ways are usually artifact-haters like Tuktuk and TSH. I don't want to argue that those cards can destroy Batterskull and Jitte (because it's literally written on them) BUT I can argue that they are not the most effective way to deal with equipments. It appears to me that we stop searching for answers as soon as we have found one. However, Tuktuk and TSH are not very GOOD answers to equipments.
I personally find it way more effective to deal with their creatures immediately (especially SFM of course) and then keep artifact hate as some sort of emergency botton. Tuktuk and TSH bear several risks that I dn't want to take:
They must stay on your hand until the equipment in question is on the battlefield. the thing is that with SFM equipments will oftentimes enter the battlefield at EOT. The problem here is, that TSH and Tuktuk usually don't have flash. This in turn means that Jitte and Batterskull wil oftentimes get "online" (i.e. the equipped creature will be able to attack and therefore trigger the equipment's triggered abilities) BEFORE Tuktuk and TSH are able to touch them. On top of that this makes them more vulnerable to discard-spells. Am I the only one who finds this thought unattractive? Probably not! So why do we keep thinking that Tuktuk and TSH will seal the deal? Answer: Because we are constantly overlooking alternatives and we insist and reinforce each other that Tuktuk and TSH indeed are effective answers (which they aren't).
So what's my suggestion? I'd go for more removal to kill SFM as reliably as possible. Yeah...I know what you might be thinking now: "but we DO have removal and we DO target SFM as often as possible". I know. However it seems to me that removal is a bit underrated and that we don't necessarily choose the best removal here. We must treat spotremoval as THE GOLDEN CARDS for this MU. I consider every spotremoval to be more worth than Tuktuk CRAPper. Remmoval has several advantages over artifact hate.
* removal-cards are rarely dead cards
* removal removes the creature (read: the BLOCKER) that could carry Jitte
* removal does not have to wait until equipments come into play (get "online")
* removal (when targetet at mana-guys or SFM) forces your opponents to CAST their equipments. This gives you higher chances on getting them with your artifact hate
* removal (at least in Goblins) can usually be played as an instant (which adds to the flexibility that Tuktuk and TSH never have)

So, what does this mean for deckconstruction?
* don't run artifact hate in MD. play MORE removal instead. I think that we should not run less than 9 removal-spells in MD
* don't overrate artifacte hate
* don't underestimate the value of spotremoval

Discuss!

I can totally see your point, while having experienced the same situations. The problem is that most goblin cards are not even close to be broken. (What most of the rest of the format seems to be playing.) And especially our artifact hate is bad-people have complained here a lot about a better hate card for goblins and have been giving suggestions. I have to mention that playing red should not be a problem with artifacts, instead there is no reasonable answer in goblin form.

The major problem is of course that this hate has no instand speed. But let's start at a different point: I tested cavern and TSH and was positively surpirsed to its effectiveness and speed, since he can be cast from turn 2 and on, maybe because I don't own taiga to know better. Still he'll never be cast by vial, but even in games without artifacts he has 2 power and can hit and chump block.
Tuktuk instead is really slow with vial being on four means it's at least turn 5. And I'm very tired of hardcasting such an answer, while my opponent put another threat on the table. I also dislike to activate my vial to bring tuktuk in play and get a vendillion clique flashed in to take him away. The point of damage he does is irrelevant and no one in this format play a 2/2 body for 4 cc without something like "your opponent looses half of his life" or "you win the game".

The problem on the other side is, as you said, that we already changed Bolt to tarfire for SFM, which you don't always have and maybe you can't answer MoR and SFM on turn 1-2. And since we can't prevent SFM cip effect, we're forced to kill every creature they drop, 'cause even a small 0/1 dude with exalted gets scary when equipped with jitte. Another problem is that a GSZ results usually in an Ooze or Knight that is so big you can't handle them. In that case only Warren Weirding might take care, but I'm not sure if I want to play 3-4 of that.

Therefore I would suggest a third way that gobbolord did not consider: Play around Jitte and Batterscull with Skrik Prosepcter, Mogg Fanatic, SGC and at the very last solution declare block and burn your own guys with gempalm, tarfire or pyrokinesis.

I would like to have a list that combines 7-12 removal, 1 MD artifact hate (TSH with cavern of souls) and let's call 'em the "sac goblins". I start thinking about that and post a list if I have it.

[Humphrey]

Im trying to focus on removal since Cawblade with MM was around (see old posts), but sadly, this doesnt help.

Swords, Jitte and Skull are way to effective against us. If we cant immediatly burn that 2nd turn SFM the game is almost over and even if we can, every little creature the opponent is casting is a thread we cant handle. With cards like Lingering Souls the spot removal doesnt help. We need maindeck artifact solutions. And we absolutely need better goblinhate than Tuktuk or TSH.

[GoboLord]

I can totally see your point[...]
Sorry but I highly doubt that. I just said that TSH is NOT a solution for the SFM+Equip-package. (well he is just as good as a solution for them as Hindering Touch is for Storm-Combo)

Let me say it in more extreme words: Tuktuk and TSH must not be a point of discussion if you worry about SFM. We MUST play more removal in MD and totally force them into defense with fast setups. We must not react, but agressively charge for the win. If we keep removing their creature (one each turn) then we don't give them time and mana to cast + attach their equipments. I know, this might sound easier than it actually is, but we can't let the game last longer than 5 turns. We must win before that. Remind that when making mulligan decisions. Against Maverick and Stoneblade I'd go as follows:
* make sure you have an early Vial
* use your mana to remove their creatures and Waste their lands ( in short: disrupt their setup)
And:
* play Sulfuric Vortex in your SB. This card does everything (see my report last page) it blocks grove of burnwillo's lifegain (no recurring Punishing fire for them) and it downgrades Batterskull to a clumsy 4/4 -artifact creature.

I'd even dare to say that we don't need artifact hate at all (since its so inflexible).

//EDIT: What you said about block + sac creatures (Skirk Prospector/Fanatic/SIege-Gang) is absolutely correct! However I did consider this, since my 22th land has transformed into a SKirk Prospector lately. I'm still not a fan of Mogg Fanatic.

[Davran]

First of all,
thank you guys for sharing your thoughts with me on the question about Lackey and Vial. You really helped me out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
On a different note I want to start a discussion about what BigBopper wrote (and what everyone seem to be thinking right now).


What I can read here is that there is a consensus that Tuktuk Scrapper ans Tin Street Hooligan are effective ways to deal with equipments.
I must say that I strongly disagree here and I want to explain myself.

When we are pondering about how to deal with those worrisome matchups (like Maverick and UWx Stoneblade) we can't help but figure out that those equipments are cards that give us hard times.
So we perceive equipments as being the troublemakers and try to find ways to get rid of them. Those ways are usually artifact-haters like Tuktuk and TSH. I don't want to argue that those cards can destroy Batterskull and Jitte (because it's literally written on them) BUT I can argue that they are not the most effective way to deal with equipments. It appears to me that we stop searching for answers as soon as we have found one. However, Tuktuk and TSH are not very GOOD answers to equipments.
I personally find it way more effective to deal with their creatures immediately (especially SFM of course) and then keep artifact hate as some sort of emergency botton. Tuktuk and TSH bear several risks that I dn't want to take:
They must stay on your hand until the equipment in question is on the battlefield. the thing is that with SFM equipments will oftentimes enter the battlefield at EOT. The problem here is, that TSH and Tuktuk usually don't have flash. This in turn means that Jitte and Batterskull wil oftentimes get "online" (i.e. the equipped creature will be able to attack and therefore trigger the equipment's triggered abilities) BEFORE Tuktuk and TSH are able to touch them. On top of that this makes them more vulnerable to discard-spells. Am I the only one who finds this thought unattractive? Probably not! So why do we keep thinking that Tuktuk and TSH will seal the deal? Answer: Because we are constantly overlooking alternatives and we insist and reinforce each other that Tuktuk and TSH indeed are effective answers (which they aren't).
So what's my suggestion? I'd go for more removal to kill SFM as reliably as possible. Yeah...I know what you might be thinking now: "but we DO have removal and we DO target SFM as often as possible". I know. However it seems to me that removal is a bit underrated and that we don't necessarily choose the best removal here. We must treat spotremoval as THE GOLDEN CARDS for this MU. I consider every spotremoval to be more worth than Tuktuk CRAPper. Remmoval has several advantages over artifact hate.
* removal-cards are rarely dead cards
* removal removes the creature (read: the BLOCKER) that could carry Jitte
* removal does not have to wait until equipments come into play (get "online")
* removal (when targetet at mana-guys or SFM) forces your opponents to CAST their equipments. This gives you higher chances on getting them with your artifact hate
* removal (at least in Goblins) can usually be played as an instant (which adds to the flexibility that Tuktuk and TSH never have)

So, what does this mean for deckconstruction?
* don't run artifact hate in MD. play MORE removal instead. I think that we should not run less than 9 removal-spells in MD
* don't overrate artifacte hate
* don't underestimate the value of spotremoval

Discuss!

I agree with most of your points here Gobolord...but I would like to add my own experience to the discussion.

I've been a big proponent of Tarfire in the current metagame as an answer to SFM. Against incompetent players, Tarfire is all you need - you shock the Mystic and strand the Batterskull they just fetched in their hand. I love seeing Mystic-->Batterskull as that is so much easier to deal with.

However a competent player won't fetch Batterskull with their first Mystic, they'll fetch Jitte. Regardless of Mystic's 2nd ability, Jitte costs them 2 mana to cast. So by killing Mystic all we do is remove a potential Jitte carrier. The problem here is that it's pretty rare to be sitting across from a G/W player that only has a Mystic on the table. This presents an interesting problem - if I'm holding one removal spell to his two creatures, he's still going to be able to equip the Jitte and swing the following turn.

You also have to take Mother of Runes into account here. If our plan is to respond to the equip with burn and our opponent is rocking out with Mom in play, that Jitte is getting equipped. Further, we're going to get hit with it. Mom can't protect artifacts from removal.

Against U/W, removal is all we need. I definitely agree there. Against G/W though...there are more issues than just killing Mystic.

For the Cavern of Souls debate: I disagree with the "it opens the deck to Wasteland" argument. Yes, the current face-stomping aggro version plays mountains almost exclusively. However, there was a time not all that long ago when our mana base looked like this:

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
14x Mountain

We were more open to Wasteland then too, and we were a deck to beat. I'm not sure that 4x Cavern of Souls is correct...but I don't think 2 or 3 would be detrimental to our game plan. If anything it might help to improve the U/W and U/W/b match ups. I do think that running Cavern AND trying to be R/B is a bit of a stretch on the mana base, but as mono-red I think this is definitely something we should test.

[liamb]

Therefore I would suggest a third way that gobbolord did not consider: Play around Jitte and Batterscull with Skrik Prosepcter, Mogg Fanatic, SGC and at the very last solution declare block and burn your own guys with gempalm, tarfire or pyrokinesis.

This my friend is very good idea. With this combination (prospector, fanatic) it will be also good to play 1 Sharshooter in the maindeck and additional 1 in the sideboard. Thats should give'em (those pesky esper blades and mavericks) hard times.

[ScatmanX]

@Cavern of Souls: It's awesome. Not because it makes Lackey T1 uncounterable, but because make Ringleader/SGC t4/5 uncounterable. That simple.

@Playing more removal and no TSH/TUKTUK MD: It could be an interesting move, but some months ago. At least in my meta, there are quite a lot of EsperBlade, and almost none UW. That means Lingering Souls. It is almost impossible to deal with all creatures of: Stoneforge T2, Lingering T3, Flashback Lingering + Jitte T4. Sometimes it is feasible, however, to just kill the token when it attacks, or attempt to blocks while equipped. Against GW, not so much. They have big guys, whereas Esper don't.
Well, since the subject is overloading with removal, and some talk about facing Puninshing Fire, why don't we just play the monster ourselves, and get it done with?

Pros:
Recurrable removal is Awesome with Vial and Lackey.
2 Dmg kills almost everything out there.
People may bring Grave-hate against us, which could be awesome (because it sucks).
Let you play an awesome control role.
Makes splashing G more easily.
It's better when the opponent wants to discard your removal spell.
Cons:
Non-Goblin.
Nets them some life (irrelevant in my testing so far, even 6+ life).
We play more non-basics.
We still need to play 1cc removal because of Mom.
You can't play Sulfuric Vortex on the SB.
I don't know...

Well, with that, the list I'm working on:

Punishing Goblins!
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Fetchland
4 Grove of Burnwillows
4 Cavern of Souls

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Tarfire
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
4 Punishing Fire

1 Tin-Street Hooligan

SB:
2 Pyroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Nature's Claim

22 lands with 30 goblins total. 13 removal + Shooter+1Tin-Street.
It this wrecks agroo decks like I think it does, SB with lots of combo and grave hate is feasible.
Well, what do you think about this?

[jrw1985]

About Cavern of Souls: The main drawback here is the creature spell restriction. It only really helps the tin-street-hooligan.

C'mon now, you know it makes cards other than Tin-Street better.

For starters, Caverns laughs at T1 FoW when you're on the play and dropping a Lackey. I know this is the most obvious benefit that we keep going on and on about, but it's a real advantage.

The next big advantage it gives is in the mid-game (T3-4) when it allows you to hardcast a Matron or Ringleader and guarantee it will resolve. Cavern has made Matron and Ringleader 50% better than they were before, just because you can now guarantee resolving them. This is a huge benefit when you're trying to chump a Goyf (against RUG Delver) or build a dominant board position (against Bant or Blade).

Minor advantages:
Stingscourger will hit Gin Getaxis or Elsh Norn.
Gempalm will be better through sheer virture of more gobbos making it into play.
T1 Chalice @ 1 = So?
Toolbox goblins will make it into play (Sharpshooter, Sting, TSH, whatevs).

Implicit Advantage:
Opposing decks will need to diversify their hate against goblins now. They can't rely on counterspells without land destruction, and even then Cavern still gets at least 1 activation. They'll need more sweepers, which slows them down, or spot removal, which thins their threats.
Racing combo will become easier. High Tide, Sneaky Tell, Hive Mind, these all want to stop a T1 Lackey so they don't have to race. That's more difficult for them now.

The benefit of running Cavern of Souls is far more expansive than simply making TSH better.

[Vandalize]

With Cavern of Souls, there're just two more printings to make Goblins a VERY good deck again:

Goblin Spellskite:
1R
1/2
R: Change the Target of target spell to Goblin Spellskite.
Flavor: "Nice Swords to Plowshares you have there mister.

Shattering Goblin:
R
1/1
Sacrifice Shattering Goblin: Destroy Target Artifact, you lose life equal to that artifact's manacost.
Flavor: Live the dream, fellow goblin players!

Okay, jokes apart, Cavern of Souls main effect is to make sure your Ringleader will hit play, and it should really be played as a four-of, in addition to AEther Vial. Back off with those Wasteland arguments, we're not Canadian Thresh.

[woremak]

Sorry for being off topic, but I'm in the process of picking up R/B goblins and I was wondering why people don't play Auntie's Hovel. Is it just because it opens you up to Wasteland more?

[trivial_matters]

Sorry for being off topic, but I'm in the process of picking up R/B goblins and I was wondering why people don't play Auntie's Hovel. Is it just because it opens you up to Wasteland more?

Take a look at these two pages:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Vial-Goblins-2.0/page33

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Vial-Goblins-2.0/page34

The main problem is Wasteland, I think.

[Hyped]

Sorry for being off topic, but I'm in the process of picking up R/B goblins and I was wondering why people don't play Auntie's Hovel. Is it just because it opens you up to Wasteland more?

Yes, that and:
Giving your opponent information about your hand is bad.
4 - 6 fetch + 1-4 badlands are enough.

[Pinoy Goblin]

@Gobolord

- I agree bro with some of your points here regarding tuktuk and tsh but as a goblin player myself for 6 years, I myself am more comfortable with my one artifact removal goblin main deck because it gives us a mindset that we have outs given the artifact threat on board is on play and a better chance of removing it rather than dodging it.

- I also agree with playing more removals and killing the enabler SFM but this is a case to case basis yup it is better to kill sfm before it brings down skull or jitte but a u/wb player with plenty lands will only hardcast their skulls and jitte without SFM thus a problem for us if we have no artifact hate mainboard

- Isn't it okay to play removals back to back with one goblin artifact removal? - this sounds good to me because on an emergency basis we have a back up plan even if it is a one-off.

- TSH and Tuktuk are still mainboard one off worthy because neither our opponent has an artifact in play still it counts as a goblin body thus giving our piledriver a boost or a chumpblocker if we needed to.

- We need cavern of souls my fellow warchiefs maybe as a 2-3 off, an uncounterable lackey first turn is good but a midgame uncounterable matron, ringleader or seige gang is better. . .

[BigBopper]

Well, since the subject is overloading with removal, and some talk about facing Puninshing Fire, why don't we just play the monster ourselves, and get it done with?

Pros:
Recurrable removal is Awesome with Vial and Lackey.
2 Dmg kills almost everything out there.
People may bring Grave-hate against us, which could be awesome (because it sucks).
Let you play an awesome control role.
Makes splashing G more easily.
It's better when the opponent wants to discard your removal spell.
Cons:
Non-Goblin.
Nets them some life (irrelevant in my testing so far, even 6+ life).
We play more non-basics.
We still need to play 1cc removal because of Mom.
You can't play Sulfuric Vortex on the SB.
I don't know...

Well, with that, the list I'm working on:

Punishing Goblins!
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Fetchland
4 Grove of Burnwillows
4 Cavern of Souls

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Tarfire
3 Mogg Fanatic
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
4 Punishing Fire

1 Tin-Street Hooligan

SB:
2 Pyroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Nature's Claim

22 lands with 30 goblins total. 13 removal + Shooter+1Tin-Street.
It this wrecks agroo decks like I think it does, SB with lots of combo and grave hate is feasible.
Well, what do you think about this?

I also came to this idea when punishing maverick was on the rise (End of Jan this year):


I also tested a little around with removal. I even build a r/g deck with TSH based on Groove of the Burnwillows, Taiga and Punishing Fire, which I have mixed feelings about. Punishing Fire isn't a goblin which is a huge problem and we can't find the Groove, 'cause we don't play Knights...

My main problem was to get the green sources online and to grab Punishing fire. with ringleader you get to see it, but instead of going into your grave it moves down your bib-bye bye. I couldn't tutor it and so i dropped it after some prelimitary testings.
Also if splashing right now I would always pack to badlands and a Weirding-especially to have access to Perish in SB.

I did some more testings yesterday vs. G/W Maverick and once again to lost one card like 3 times: Jitte. Yes it is cool and yes it beats tribal decks, and no there is not always a way to handle it. I tried removal, they play more and bigger creatures. I tried artifact hate (TSH), they get it back with eternal wittness. I tried Skirk Prospector to sac block, they got Scryb Ranger and flew over my army. The only thing I have not tested so far is a list with 2+ Fanatic, which combines Removal and sac blocking and synergieses with Sharpshooter.

[ScatmanX]

@BigBopper: Thanks for sharing your insight.
Why are the cards not being fetchable a problem? I mean, P.Fire is not too bad on it's own, and Grove is a land that produces R.
Why your main problem was getting a G source? Our only MD card that uses green is 1 TSH.
I don't see how this version is worse against Maverick. It plays similarly to the Instigator-less build. They getting Jitte back, and having bigger guys happens against evert build.
About having "only" 30 goblins, that may be a problem, but I used to play that number in the Survival era, and the deck did fairly well.

That said, it may not be the greatest thing on the world, but I'd really like to give a shot at a tournament with it.

[Humphrey]

I dont think P.fire is useful in gobs. In the beginning its to slow, I prefer Fanatic, Tarfire or Pyrokinesis here. Later on it doesnt help with the most problematic threads. Big creatures or Equipment. Swords and Skull are to big or even have pro red and Jitte just need a counter to dodge the 2 damage.
Also it weakens the manabase and is giving lifegain when you dont want it.

[BigBopper]

@BigBopper: Thanks for sharing your insight.
Why are the cards not being fetchable a problem? I mean, P.Fire is not too bad on it's own, and Grove is a land that produces R.
Why your main problem was getting a G source? Our only MD card that uses green is 1 TSH.
I don't see how this version is worse against Maverick. It plays similarly to the Instigator-less build. They getting Jitte back, and having bigger guys happens against evert build.
About having "only" 30 goblins, that may be a problem, but I used to play that number in the Survival era, and the deck did fairly well.

That said, it may not be the greatest thing on the world, but I'd really like to give a shot at a tournament with it.

I see, that I didn't write it quite right: what I meant was, that I wasn't able to find a Groove (since it's not fetchable) and although I had 6 green producing mana in this deck, I still was crewed by wasteland on my green scource when I needed it for TSH. In fact this just a minor thing, since that could happen all the time when playing with only 2 Taiga.
I just made a couple of games with proxies and decided that the goblin count was too low. Maybe I dropped it too fast? I dunno it just feels like we're more and more inclunding answers for threats instead of playing them on our own. That's why I really liked the idea of WInstigator, 'cause it's a card that finds a discussion here and needs to be handled by opponents.

I also tried a couple of games lately with a proxed version including Descandant's Path. While i was very convinced of that card in the beginning it did not fullfill my expectations. Cast on turn 3 means you basically give your opponent a time walk, since it's not active until the next turn. And then I just found lands, vial or another Path. The only time it triggered for a goblin, it was a lackey. On the other hand one could say, that I would have drawn these cards instead, but maybe I need a land or want a vial. I need to do some more games with it, but my first impression is, that it is really slow, although it could give a huge amount of card advantage.

[Davran]

I did some more testings yesterday vs. G/W Maverick and once again to lost one card like 3 times: Jitte. Yes it is cool and yes it beats tribal decks, and no there is not always a way to handle it. I tried removal, they play more and bigger creatures. I tried artifact hate (TSH), they get it back with eternal wittness. I tried Skirk Prospector to sac block, they got Scryb Ranger and flew over my army. The only thing I have not tested so far is a list with 2+ Fanatic, which combines Removal and sac blocking and synergieses with Sharpshooter.

What about running an Ancient Grudge or two in the board if you're already splashing green for TSH? It's not the greatest thing in the world, but it will deal with a Jitte twice...

I honestly have the same problem against G/W and to some extent U/W, except I don't have the luxury of a green splash. Jitte was hard enough to deal with when it was 1-2 copies in the deck. Now between Stoneforge Mystic and Enlightened Tutor they're running 1 actual Jitte and a virtual 4-6 additional copies. I really hope we get some solid artifact hate that doesn't require a splash and comes down before turn 4.

[Humphrey]

I had very good resuslts against GW with my acual list and played on a 130man tournament with it. I lost twice to Esper and once to Sneak Show but overall the list was very solid. In the Espermatchups i got 2 times flooded and 1 times screwed. Maybe im going to add 2 more Fetchland.

PNeedle in the SB was a solid answer to SFM and Jitte, Ill try 3 next time.

1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
4 AEther Vial
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
2 Tarfire
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
6 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Mogg War Marshal
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental

[ScatmanX]

I see, that I didn't write it quite right: what I meant was, that I wasn't able to find a Groove (since it's not fetchable) and although I had 6 green producing mana in this deck, I still was crewed by wasteland on my green scource when I needed it for TSH. In fact this just a minor thing, since that could happen all the time when playing with only 2 Taiga.
I just made a couple of games with proxies and decided that the goblin count was too low. Maybe I dropped it too fast? I dunno it just feels like we're more and more inclunding answers for threats instead of playing them on our own. That's why I really liked the idea of WInstigator, 'cause it's a card that finds a discussion here and needs to be handled by opponents.

I also tried a couple of games lately with a proxed version including Descandant's Path. While i was very convinced of that card in the beginning it did not fullfill my expectations. Cast on turn 3 means you basically give your opponent a time walk, since it's not active until the next turn. And then I just found lands, vial or another Path. The only time it triggered for a goblin, it was a lackey. On the other hand one could say, that I would have drawn these cards instead, but maybe I need a land or want a vial. I need to do some more games with it, but my first impression is, that it is really slow, although it could give a huge amount of card advantage.
I'll try those things (pre ordered Path too, just because the card seems awesome, and is quite low price). Will probably have the same results as you though...



SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
And Sulfur Elemental? were they usefull? In my testing they were quite lackuster.
I'll propably go with Needle again to handle Esper. in the best SB card against them on testing...

[orcanmail]

Sorry but I highly doubt that. I just said that TSH is NOT a solution for the SFM+Equip-package. (well he is just as good as a solution for them as Hindering Touch is for Storm-Combo)

Let me say it in more extreme words: Tuktuk and TSH must not be a point of discussion if you worry about SFM. We MUST play more removal in MD and totally force them into defense with fast setups. We must not react, but agressively charge for the win. If we keep removing their creature (one each turn) then we don't give them time and mana to cast + attach their equipments. I know, this might sound easier than it actually is, but we can't let the game last longer than 5 turns. We must win before that. Remind that when making mulligan decisions. Against Maverick and Stoneblade I'd go as follows:
* make sure you have an early Vial
* use your mana to remove their creatures and Waste their lands ( in short: disrupt their setup)
And:
* play Sulfuric Vortex in your SB. This card does everything (see my report last page) it blocks grove of burnwillo's lifegain (no recurring Punishing fire for them) and it downgrades Batterskull to a clumsy 4/4 -artifact creature.

I'd even dare to say that we don't need artifact hate at all (since its so inflexible).

//EDIT: What you said about block + sac creatures (Skirk Prospector/Fanatic/SIege-Gang) is absolutely correct! However I did consider this, since my 22th land has transformed into a SKirk Prospector lately. I'm still not a fan of Mogg Fanatic.

I've been away but I beat Maverick most games with mono red goblins and here is why

4 x Tarfire
4 x Gempalm Incinerator ( with 3 x MWM also in list )
2 x Stingscourger

and for good measure 3 x Pyrokinesis out of the SB ( Such a SB must have card )

I target the little creatures to stop them building up and then swing for the win!

Tempo and pressure! The key to aggro success.
( Unless against combo then see rest of my SB! )

[Humphrey]

And Sulfur Elemental? were they usefull? In my testing they were quite lackuster.
I'll propably go with Needle again to handle Esper. in the best SB card against them on testing...

Well, i didnt have Sulfur when they resolved Souls. At one point my opp had 2 SFM and I had 2 Elementals on my hand, but one got discarded by IoK :(
I still think theyre a solid sideboard choice against Esper and GW depending on the build.

[ScatmanX]

I've been away but I beat Maverick most games with mono red goblins and here is why

4 x Tarfire
4 x Gempalm Incinerator ( with 3 x MWM also in list )
2 x Stingscourger

and for good measure 3 x Pyrokinesis out of the SB ( Such a SB must have card )

I target the little creatures to stop them building up and then swing for the win!

Tempo and pressure! The key to aggro success.
( Unless against combo then see rest of my SB! )
I also beat GW quite constantly. And usually it's not fast. I take the card advantage rout, and eventually get enough guys on the table, that 1 Gempalm, 1 Sting, 1 Tarfire, make me able to swing for the win on 2 turns.
SB'ded games it's easier to go faster with Knesis, but still, I prefer to go for the long game. Just play fast enough so it doesn't end in a draw.
But I guess both strategies are pretty valid.

[jrw1985]

Proposed decklist for the Cavern of Souls era.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

2 Mogg War-Marshall
1 Tuktuk Scrapper / Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Tarfire

My reasoning for this list:

First and foremost, a T1 Lackey will resolve more often. When you have a T1 Lackey, you are free to use your lands for things other than casting spells. Hence, 4 Rishadan Port. Cavern mana can be used to activate Port, and Cavern>Lackey>Port is a line of play that will be very difficult to answer for UW Stoneblade and RUG Tempo decks. They generally maindeck only 4-8 pieces of spot removal, so your Lackey has a good chance of connecting T2.

Cavern of Souls will be great in Goblin builds because it will force opposing decks to diversify their responses to our cards. They will no longer be able to rely on a mixture of spot removal and counterspells to control our board. This means they will need to rely more heavily on board-sweeping effects (Wrath of God, Firespout) or permanents that control combat (Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, Propoganda). Because Sweepers are more mana-intensive, opposing decks will be more vulnerable to mana-disruption. Once again, Rishadan Port shines in this role.

Goblin Warchief should return as the Lord of choice, for several reasons. First, he makes your gobbos less expensive to hardcast. Hardcasting Matrons and Ringleaders is now a more attractive option thanks to Cavern. Since Cavern will make opposing decks rely further on mass removal you will find yourself in situations where your board gets wiped. Warchief makes recovering from a wiped board much faster and more explosive than Chieftain. You can land a Warchief the turn after a Wrath, then play Matron>Piledriver the next turn and swing in for 8.

That brings us to another blast from the past: Goblin Piledriver. I haven't played with a full playset of these guys for months, and I miss them. Since Cavern will allow us to get more Gobbos onto the battlefield, Piledriver will allow us to capitalize on those higher numbers. If you're worried that he'll just eat spot removal remember that with counterspells playing a much smaller role there will be less spot removal to go around. In other words, by the time Piledriver hits play your opponent already had to Swords/Bolt the Lackey.

Speaking of old cards, Gempalm Incinerator probably aught to be a 4-of again. I'm not sure it was ever a bad idea to run a playset of these guys. Of the 5 goblin decks that have made top-16 at SCG 5Ks these past 2 months 4 of them have played 3 or 4 Gempalms. It's a good card, and will receive the same bump in usefulness that Piledriver will. (And aside: Remember how your opponents hate that they can't counter Gempalm? Well Caverns will make them feel that way about every Goblin).

Aside from those changes the rest of the build should remind you of decks built with the intention of beating other creature-based decks. Plenty of burn that's either free or inexpensive (Pyrokinesis, Tarfire) and some removal in a Goblin body (Gempalm, Sharpshooter, Tuktuk). Mogg War-Marshalls are there to clog the board and boost Gempalm and Piledriver.

Of course there is plenty of wiggle-room, and this build is a little more "classic" than is probably optimal. I also don't know whether a Black or Green splash would be a good idea. The manabase could easily be changed to look like the following:

4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
4 Dual Lands
4 Fetchlands

This would easily open the deck to playing Weirding (an excellent choice against Thrun which also makes Perish available against Maverick) and allow Tin-Street Hooligan, Wort, Earwig Squad, or whatever your pet goblin is to be played.

Also, I do not think the Chieftain/Winstigator build should be tossed out. It seems very viable still and variety makes the deck more difficult to play correctly against. I’m waiting to see the all-goblins build that plays 4 Winstigators over Vial, and maybe a Goblin Wizard or two (yes, I know he sucks, but there might be times when he doesn’t).

I’m looking forward to writing my first tournament report once I get my preordered playset of Caverns. I’ll let you all know how it goes and hope to hear of some playtesting and lists in the very near future.

[wert]

I've been away but I beat Maverick most games with mono red goblins and here is why

4 x Tarfire
4 x Gempalm Incinerator ( with 3 x MWM also in list )
2 x Stingscourger

and for good measure 3 x Pyrokinesis out of the SB ( Such a SB must have card )

I target the little creatures to stop them building up and then swing for the win!

Tempo and pressure! The key to aggro success.
( Unless against combo then see rest of my SB! )
That sounds good in theory, the problem for me is what to take out in order to fit in those removals. I never managed to achieve a good balance with that much removal.

[orcanmail]

That sounds good in theory, the problem for me is what to take out in order to fit in those removals. I never managed to achieve a good balance with that much removal.

Mono Red MB

4x Vial
4 x Lackey
4 x tarfire
3 x MWM
2 x Piledriver
2 x Warren Instigator
2 x Stingscourger
4 x Gempalm Incinerator
4 x Goblin Matron
4 x Goblin Chieftain
1 x Sharpshooter ( could be Tuk Tuk )
4 x Ringleader
2 x Siege Gang

4 x wasteland
16 x mountain

SB
3 x Pyrokenisis
4 x chalice of void
4 x leyline of void
4 x mindbreak trap

Of course SB always open up to discussion but anti storm could go with thorns, find a way for REB for example
20 lands is working in this build, only ringleaders and SGC above 3cc. SB is basically 0cc.

So there you go! Thinking of maybe -1 sharpshooter and -1 chieftain and +2 warchief but always tinkering but the removal package works well.

[from Cairo]

I've been away but I beat Maverick most games with mono red goblins and here is why

4 x Tarfire
4 x Gempalm Incinerator ( with 3 x MWM also in list )
2 x Stingscourger

and for good measure 3 x Pyrokinesis out of the SB ( Such a SB must have card )

I target the little creatures to stop them building up and then swing for the win!

Tempo and pressure! The key to aggro success.
( Unless against combo then see rest of my SB! )
That sounds good in theory, the problem for me is what to take out in order to fit in those removals. I never managed to achieve a good balance with that much removal.


Proposed decklist for the Cavern of Souls era.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

2 Mogg War-Marshall
1 Tuktuk Scrapper / Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Tarfire


Mostly, I agree with jrw1985.

I was thinking:

-1 Rishadan Port
-2 Mogg War Marshall

+1 Mountain
w/ Scrapper, Sharpshooter and Skirk Prospector.


Regardless, MB a couple Pyrokinesis in a "normal" meta. Versus agro they often win the game, and versus combo/control things like Tarfire and Stingscourger aren't going to boost the match up anyway.

[liamb]

Mostly, I agree with jrw1985.

I was thinking:

-1 Rishadan Port
-2 Mogg War Marshall

+1 Mountain
w/ Scrapper, Sharpshooter and Skirk Prospector.


Regardless, MB a couple Pyrokinesis in a "normal" meta. Versus agro they often win the game, and versus combo/control things like Tarfire and Stingscourger aren't going to boost the match up anyway.

I would leave MWM and try Something similar to Jim Davis' list (the 'wmw, warchief,, prospector' interaction):


1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tuktu Srapper
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Tarfire

4 Aether Vial

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Mountain

[ScatmanX]

I would leave MWM and try Something similar to Jim Davis' list
Loved to see him play on he Survival era. He was good.
Anyone know what's he's up too?

[liamb]

Loved to see him play on he Survival era. He was good.
Anyone know what's he's up too?

last time i saw him in mental mistep era top'ing scg open with the same list that also gave me some top8's

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6246&iddeck=45263

[ScatmanX]

last time i saw him in mental mistep era top'ing scg open with the same list that also gave me some top8's

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6246&iddeck=45263
yeah. last champ I heard him play too.
Tuff times agains Zoo there...

[(nameless one)]

I would leave MWM and try Something similar to Jim Davis' list (the 'wmw, warchief,, prospector' interaction):


1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tuktu Srapper
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Tarfire

4 Aether Vial

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Mountain


With Cavern of Souls, wouldn't it be advantageous to run Hooligans over Scrappers?

[jrw1985]

With Cavern of Souls, wouldn't it be advantageous to run Hooligans over Scrappers?

The advatage of TSH is that it's a 2 drop.

The advantage of Tuktuk is that it can be Vialed in at instant speed, can be cast under a Warchief, and only requires 1 colord mana source to cast. Tuktuk can also be copied with Kiki-Jiki and still use it's enter-play ability.

The disadvantage of Hooligan is the it requires 2 colord mana sources to cast, can't be cheated in, can't be vialed in at instant speed, and gets turned off under Warchief.

The disadvantage of TukTuk is that it costs 4 mana.

Tuktuk's ability is clearly better across the board, but Hooligan is just WAYYYY more efficient. Maybe play 1 MD and 1 SB? Or a 1/1 split MD if you see a lot of equipment in your meta. I honestly don't know what the right answer is.

[BigBopper]

The advatage of TSH is that it's a 2 drop.

The advantage of Tuktuk is that it can be Vialed in at instant speed, can be cast under a Warchief, and only requires 1 colord mana source to cast. Tuktuk can also be copied with Kiki-Jiki and still use it's enter-play ability.

The disadvantage of Hooligan is the it requires 2 colord mana sources to cast, can't be cheated in, can't be vialed in at instant speed, and gets turned off under Warchief.

The disadvantage of TukTuk is that it costs 4 mana.

I just made the same experiences and really got to love vialing a matron into play and hardcast TSH right away, without waiting a round to vial Tuktuk. Time is quite important vs. Jitte, Batterscull and not to forget Vendillion Clique, 'cause Blade players my steal the card you choose to tutor for.


Tuktuk's ability is clearly better across the board, but Hooligan is just WAYYYY more efficient. Maybe play 1 MD and 1 SB? Or a 1/1 split MD if you see a lot of equipment in your meta. I honestly don't know what the right answer is.

What do you mean with 1MD and 1SB? Which one is where? I usually see Tuktuk main and STH in the board, while with a 2/1 I might be glad to cast him just for the body sometimes?
So playing TSH as a 2-off?...? opions?

[feline]

I am currently running 1 tuk tuk main & 1 tuk tuk sideboard, having 1 main deck anti artifact answer is just really helpful against stoneforge mystic's that I seem to run into at least once every event, as far as tin street goes, I run mono red, but with the new land, I could actually that land for "green" and get it into play with the artifact destroy effect. In either case, it takes them a couple turns to get out a stoneforge, use it, then get a batterskull or jitte into play, and I usually have to matron for the 1 of artifact answer anyhow, so the fact that the "answer" being tuk tuk scrapper, costs 4, is not that big of a deal when they put the artifact into play and im going to next turn destroy it anyway, so at most i have to play around it for 1 turn, they gain 4 life w/ batterskull, or possibly get a jitte with 2 counters on it, before it gets destroyed. That is usually vialing it into play too so its uncounterable, it doesn't include the new land from Avacayn restored coming out. >^,^<

[(nameless one)]

The advatage of TSH is that it's a 2 drop.

The advantage of Tuktuk is that it can be Vialed in at instant speed, can be cast under a Warchief, and only requires 1 colord mana source to cast. Tuktuk can also be copied with Kiki-Jiki and still use it's enter-play ability.

The disadvantage of Hooligan is the it requires 2 colord mana sources to cast, can't be cheated in, can't be vialed in at instant speed, and gets turned off under Warchief.

The disadvantage of TukTuk is that it costs 4 mana.

Tuktuk's ability is clearly better across the board, but Hooligan is just WAYYYY more efficient. Maybe play 1 MD and 1 SB? Or a 1/1 split MD if you see a lot of equipment in your meta. I honestly don't know what the right answer is.

Now I see what you're saying with Scrapper. It also deals damage if you need that little reach, especially with Kiki-Jiki

[Davran]

Cavern of Souls will be great in Goblin builds because it will force opposing decks to diversify their responses to our cards. They will no longer be able to rely on a mixture of spot removal and counterspells to control our board. This means they will need to rely more heavily on board-sweeping effects (Wrath of God, Firespout) or permanents that control combat (Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, Propoganda). Because Sweepers are more mana-intensive, opposing decks will be more vulnerable to mana-disruption. Once again, Rishadan Port shines in this role.

Don't forget Engineered Plague here - if Cavern has a positive effect on goblins and/or elves you can bet we'll start to see them again. Also, EPlague naming Spirit isn't the absolute worst. If that happens, Chieftain starts to look better again.

[Mantis]

I absolutely loathe Tuktuk Scrapper, I mean even when my opponent has landed a Jitte or a Batterskull I would rather have a Siege Gang into play. I run 0 Tuktuks or TSHs in my 75. With SGC out, you can gain crazy amounts of tempo by just burning every guy they try to equip the Jitte to, you can block sac, kill a dork against BSkull or double burn the germ. I have been using the sac Goblin approach for quite some time now and have been pleased with it. I think your primary goal against SFM decks should be to just get a Siege Gang Commander into play and then slowly grind them down. I play a fuckton of removal in 3 Fanatic, 4 Gempalm and 4 Bolts to get Instigator to hit and buy the time to get that SGC into play. I also play 3 SGC to ensure I actually draw them. I must admit, while this approach is the best thing I have come up with yet, it can still lose to EsperBlade so I think Cavern is definitely going to help inching out the win against them. Furthermore, I absolutely agree with what Avatara said about us needing to have some walkover matchups; this used to be CounterTop and Merfolk but recently every matchup requires some work, I think Caverns is going to give us that lost advantage back again.

TLDR; block, sac approach >>>>> Tuktuk/TSH

Also: with Chieftains you still die to Engineered Plague, don't think for a second that Chieftain will protect you against Plague because you still die to double Plague. And I have never seen a Plague not accompanied by a huge amount of removal so after getting down a Plague your opponent can simply pour all of his resources into killing Chieftain. There are plenty of reasons to run Chieftain, but I think Engineered Plague is not a very convincing one.

[jrw1985]

Cedric Philip's take on Cavern of Souls:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/23988_The_Cream_Of_The_Crop.html

"
2.) "Goblins is going to dominate Legacy now!" Anyone who says this doesn't have a fundamental understanding of how Goblins works in Legacy. As someone who has played Goblins in every Legacy tournament that I have entered for the past 1.5 years, let me explain:

Cavern of Souls does make Goblin Lackey uncounterable, but the problem wasn't that Goblin Lackey could be countered by Force of Will or Daze. The problem was that Goblin Lackey is a 1/1 that has to deal a point of damage in order for it to be relevant. Think of how difficult that is to do in Legacy.

If Goblins in on the play, here's what the opponent can do to stop a Goblin Lackey:

- Swords to Plowshares
- Path to Exile
- Lightning Bolt
- Chain Lightning
- Delver of Secrets
- Nimble Mongoose
- Mother of Runes
- Stifle
- Darkblast
- Ghastly Demise
- Innocent Blood
- Forked Bolt
- Maze of Ith
- Force of Will

If Goblins is on the draw, here's what the opponent can do to stop a Goblin Lackey besides everything else listed above:

- Tarmogoyf
- Dark Confidant
- Stoneforge Mystic
- Scavenging Ooze
- Just about any other two-mana creature
- Brainstorm for an answer
- Ponder for an answer
- Daze it

Of all of these situations listed above, only two of them are counterspells.

The ability to have your Goblins uncounterable via Cavern of Souls is nice to have available, but Goblins always preyed on decks that relied on countermagic (example: Counterbalance decks). The decks that Goblins has never wanted to play against were decks that had access to a lot of spot removal (example: decks with a lot of Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exiles and Snapcaster Mages) because Goblins is a deck of critical mass. The entire deck relies on every other card in the deck to work:

Gempalm Incinerator relies on other Goblins being in play.
Goblin Warchief makes your Goblins cost less and gives them haste.
Goblin Ringleader finds other Goblins.
Goblin Matron finds other Goblins.
Goblin Piledriver receives his bonus from other Goblins attacking.
Siege-Gang Commander requires other Goblins to be effective

If anything, Cavern of Souls is a trap for Goblins because it makes them more open to losses via Wasteland / Price of Progress. One advantage Goblins has over a lot of other aggressive decks in Legacy is that it gets to play a relevant amount of basic lands. By buying into the Cavern of Souls hype, a Goblins player is taking away one of their advantages for little to no gain.

I believe that Cavern of Souls is going to be a very good card for many years to come. I also knew that an overreaction to the card was going to occur. When a card this different comes around, it's only natural for that reaction to take place. What people need to recognize is that counterspells outside of Mana Leak aren't seeing that much play, so to say that Cavern of Souls solves a huge problem is a lack of understanding of what you're actually losing to in the games that you're playing.

I think the place that Cavern of Souls really shines is how it gives a deck like Zombie Pod in Standard a much better mana base. It now makes it reasonable to cast Diregraf Captain on turn 3 instead of hoping things work out perfectly with just eight blue mana sources.

It makes a deck like Elementals in Modern a lot more attractive because now you have access to so many lands that tap for five colors (Primal Beyond, Ancient Ziggurat, Cavern of Souls, and Reflecting Pool).

What it doesn't do is make Mana Leak obsolete. "


Cedric's argument against Cavern is that Cavern is redundant. Goblins already beats counterspells, so why make yourself more susceptible to Wasteland and PoP to beat a strategy that we already are favored against? Here's what I don't agree with about that line of thought though: In my mind, Counterspell = Spot Removal, and most blue decks run between 4-10 counterspells that are relevant to Goblins. Less spot removal = larger goblin mass > better chance of winning.

Could PoP become a real problem? Yes. But if that's the case it's probably better to ditch Wasteland than Cavern.

[GoboLord]

I agree with jrw1985.
Cedric Philips only writes about wether or not your Goblin Lackey will resolve. As afar as I know there are other Goblins that will benefit from Cavens ;-)
Besides, I can't remember the last time when I had trouble with an opponent's wasteland - so this argument is kinda....bad.

[Mantis]

With Cavern you don't have to play around Daze anymore and you can walk right into Spell Snare with Instigators. It seems so lovely, but then again only time will tell just how detrimental the added vulnerability to PoP is going to be. If Price is going to be everywhere I think not playing them might be the correct move, but I'm not sure yet.

[joemauer]

Price of Progress is a problem? Goblins can operate with one land and an Aether Vial or couple mountains and some non basic. Goblins can always wasteland it's own lands whenever needed.

Wasteland prone versus countermagic prone is tough to foresee. I would think landing uncounterable ringleaders and piledrivers is better than possibly being blown out by wasteland. I certainly don't know though.

[jrw1985]

Been doing some goldfishing today. Cavern of Souls + Gempalm/Tarfire/Weirding could be a problem for us. Drawing Cavern+Wasteland+Gempalm/Tarfire/Weirding kinda sucks.

[Avatara]

Been doing some goldfishing today. Cavern of Souls + Gempalm/Tarfire/Weirding could be a problem for us. Drawing Cavern+Wasteland+Gempalm/Tarfire/Weirding kinda sucks.
No more or less than Rishadan Port (or Wasteland).

[Hyped]

Why not cut wasteland from the list?

Ok, I know to many that will seem absurd. But in the current meta wasteland can be really bad.

Maverick just says thank you when we waste them, same with any deck running Knight o' Reliq.

In my local meta at least, there are enough Pox / Loam decks running around that I am seriously considering cutting waste.

Waste has defined Legacy for so long that any competent deck is prepared for it and can play around it. If Cavern was our only non basic, would that be such a problem?

[joemauer]

Why not cut wasteland from the list?

Ok, I know to many that will seem absurd. But in the current meta wasteland can be really bad.

Maverick just says thank you when we waste them, same with any deck running Knight o' Reliq.

In my local meta at least, there are enough Pox / Loam decks running around that I am seriously considering cutting waste.

Waste has defined Legacy for so long that any competent deck is prepared for it and can play around it. If Cavern was our only non basic, would that be such a problem?

Cutting Rishadan Port for Cavern seems to be the most logical move.

Wasteland isn't there so much for land screw aspect. It is more there for stopping utility lands. Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, Academy Ruins, Blinkmoth Nexus, etc.

However keeping an opponent off a color when they splash for red/black for plague/firespout is a strong move.

If you do go for the full twelve non basics then I believe tarfire should be Mogg Fanatic and Wierding should be cut.

[from Cairo]

I could see cutting back on a Wasteland or two depending on the metagame, but while Wasteland's often used for mana denial or color screw, the fact that it answers troublesome utility lands shouldn't be undervalued. Having an out to Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, Grove of the Burnwillows, Volrath's Stronghold, etc. tends to come up for me once an event. The mana/color screw plan can be line against UWx a lot of the time too.

I guess I'm just not feeling it as a bad card at the moment, could definitely be a difference of meta I suppose.

I recently adopted Mogg Fanatic back into my list. I think he's playable again, as he's very good against Maverick. He's occupying the Tarfire slots of jrw1985's list back a few posts. Tarfire doesn't really hit much that Mogg Fanatic doesn't - SFM, QPM, and opposing 2/2 goblins are probably the first things that come to mind. For the most part it hits similar threats - Delver, Mother of Runes, Grim Lavamancer, and can keep Maverick in check - Thalia, Noble/Arbor, Scryb Ranger, etc. Mogg Fanatic's added utility against Bridge from Below, or biding time against Umezawa's Jitte can be pretty outstanding as well.

I was running:

Land 22
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Barbarian Ring
1 Rishadan Port

Spells 6
4 Aether Vial
2 Pyrokinesis

Goblins 32
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Fanatic
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Sideboard 15
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scapper
1 Boartusk Leige

and am leaning towards a change of:

-3 Mountain
-1 Goblin Sharpshooter

+3 Cavern of Souls
+1 Pyrokinesis

I think Cavern of Souls is going to be totally solid in this deck. I don't think it's bonkers, but occasionally providing uncounterability to Goblin Lackey will win a game. It's another form of inevitability (IE in addition to: the Vial curve, 12+ 2 for 1s). Having yet another ability to cheat 3-4cc cards through Daze/FoW is nothing to scoff at. I'm could see running 3-4 I was going to start with testing 3, since it's less relevant in multiples.

Overall I was finding Sharpshooter hard to maximize with only 4 Haste lords in the list. Running 2 of them is probably overkill, they're clunky to draw into. I think going with a cheaper option would be better.

[wert]

@from Cairo
I like your list even thou I still prefer to use the WI/chieftain route. I don't know why you include a single Rishadan Port nor the Barbarian Rings. A single port would have almost no impact on mana denial and barbarian rings don't usually hit threshold when it needed it the most. I think discarding them and adding 3 mountains or using 3 Cavern of Souls would be better.

I think 1 sharpshooter should be enough as you mentioned, it is kinda of awkward to draw into sometimes. Personally, I would also switch the Skirk Prospector to either another Fanatic or Mogg War Marshal.

Sharpshooter --> Mogg War Marshal
Skirk Prospector --> Mogg War Marshal

[lyracian]

Cutting Rishadan Port for Cavern seems to be the most logical move.That was my thoughts too. Mana denial is nice, but sometimes you just have to cast things. While Force/Daze are not the only answers to turn one Lackey they are all some decks have to offer. It also makes Mogg Fanatic better since they can be, with caverns, a guaranteed turn two play to eliminate your opponents x/1 creature and let Lackey get the damage in.

[ScatmanX]

@from Cairo
A single port would have almost no impact on mana denial
It's not a single Port. It's the 5th mana denial land card. Theres a big difference.
And what's MvM?

[wert]

It's not a single Port. It's the 5th mana denial land card. Theres a big difference.
And what's MvM?

Ops... I meant the Mogg War Marshal. I would correct it the earlier post too.

[orcanmail]

i used to run 8 colourless mana in the form of 4x wasteland and 4 x rishadan ports. I've dropped the ports as they don't seem effective enough any more, but i was wondering if 4 mishras factories would be good in their place for more pressure on the board?

so 4 x wasteland and 4 x mishras factory as 8 colourless mana sources instead. Comments? Is this an idea?

[Davran]

i used to run 8 colourless mana in the form of 4x wasteland and 4 x rishadan ports. I've dropped the ports as they don't seem effective enough any more, but i was wondering if 4 mishras factories would be good in their place for more pressure on the board?

so 4 x wasteland and 4 x mishras factory as 8 colourless mana sources instead. Comments? Is this an idea?

I don't think that a vanilla 2/2 that could potentially be a 3/3 on defense is something we need. If it was, I would run Mutavault before I ran Factory simply because Mutavault is a goblin when it counts (i.e. Gempalm Incinerator, power bonus/haste from Chieftain, can be thrown by Siege-gang, +2/+0 for Piledriver etc.)

Either way, I'd much rather spend that :1: on another goblin or some removal.

[from Cairo]

@from Cairo
I like your list even thou I still prefer to use the WI/chieftain route. I don't know why you include a single Rishadan Port nor the Barbarian Rings. A single port would have almost no impact on mana denial and barbarian rings don't usually hit threshold when it needed it the most. I think discarding them and adding 3 mountains or using 3 Cavern of Souls would be better.

I think 1 sharpshooter should be enough as you mentioned, it is kinda of awkward to draw into sometimes. Personally, I would also switch the Skirk Prospector to either another Fanatic or Mogg War Marshal.

Sharpshooter --> Mogg War Marshal
Skirk Prospector --> Mogg War Marshal


As ScatmanX pointed out, the singleton Rishadan Port makes more sense to be viewed as a 5th piece of mana denial. It's clearly less powerful than Wasteland thus the 4/1 split.

The Barbarian Rings have played well for me. They've been the last two points for me a couple times, they've teamed up with other removal to take down bigger guys. The times they've been relevant were longer grindy games, where the Threshold restriction wasn't an issue.

I've been really happy with the Skirk Prospector as well. Obviously there's the Sharpshooter combo. He's helped power out some turn 2 Warchiefs and occasionally he's fueled some crazy turns with Warchief and Matrons. Additionally, it provides a way to keep opposing Jitte inactive.

[BigBopper]

I'm tired of loosing to jitte.
All of those little flying creatures (including spirit token) and flash creatues (Clique, Snapcaster, Scryb Ranger, aven mindsensor)-can't handle them without leaving my gameplan...
After playtesting with 2 pieced of artifact removal MD or Skirk Prospector or Mogg Fanatic or tons of removal I came to a solution that has suited me the best so far: playing Jitte myself.
Since Gobbolord suggest to pack removal like there is no tomorrow, I thought instead of a second Pyrokiesis or Lightning bolt I could just pack Jitte. It can take care of creatures as well and trade positively. It can be a thread to combo, since it can make life. It is a serious threat to my opponent, 'cause it can give +2/+2 and it takes care of opposing jitte, even when it's flashed in by SFM.
You just need to draw it like pyrokinesis.

[Hencules]

I'm tired of loosing to jitte.
All of those little flying creatures (including spirit token) and flash creatues (Clique, Snapcaster, Scryb Ranger, aven mindsensor)-can't handle them without leaving my gameplan...
After playtesting with 2 pieced of artifact removal MD or Skirk Prospector or Mogg Fanatic or tons of removal I came to a solution that has suited me the best so far: playing Jitte myself.
Since Gobbolord suggest to pack removal like there is no tomorrow, I thought instead of a second Pyrokiesis or Lightning bolt I could just pack Jitte. It can take care of creatures as well and trade positively. It can be a thread to combo, since it can make life. It is a serious threat to my opponent, 'cause it can give +2/+2 and it takes care of opposing jitte, even when it's flashed in by SFM.
You just need to draw it like pyrokinesis.


Okay, so how many would you play? Two? I think it's a fine idea, but since 4 vials is a nobrainer and i allready play 3 pyrokinesis, i really wouldn't like adding more non-goblin stuff.. Also: we are more dependant of jitte than they are. When we play jitte, they just search theirs with mystic and legendary the crap out of them. We are left without our flying-bugger-killer, and they still have their flying stuff.

Ideas?

[BigBopper]

Okay, so how many would you play? Two? I think it's a fine idea, but since 4 vials is a nobrainer and i allready play 3 pyrokinesis, i really wouldn't like adding more non-goblin stuff.. Also: we are more dependant of jitte than they are. When we play jitte, they just search theirs with mystic and legendary the crap out of them. We are left without our flying-bugger-killer, and they still have their flying stuff.

Ideas?

The whole point of playing Jitte was to kill opposing Jitte with its legendary function. And if they tutor for a solution either with SFM or GSZ (Pridemage) then they need an answer and don't look for another threat like Batterscull or Ooze/knight. I just realized how good it is in other matchups. That's why I said it replaced Pyrokinesis, sicne this is not effective in each matchup.
I think 2 is a good idea, since that's what I'm playtesting with right now.

I'm down at 1 pyrokinesis. Together with 21 lands, 2 Jitte and 4 vial. I can still afford to play gobins with 32 cards...

[jrw1985]

Does anyone have any Cavern testing they can report on? I've only goldfished with it up to this point and was wondering if anyone had experience with its interactivity against Wasteland/PoP.

Also, what kind of build seems more effective at this time with a Cavern manabase? One favoring Chieftain/Instigator or Warchief/Piledriver?

I'm leaning toward the Chieftain Instigator build, but Warchief/Piledriver builds seem to be the ones putting up placings at SCG opens.

[ScatmanX]

I'm tired of loosing to jitte.
All of those little flying creatures (including spirit token) and flash creatues (Clique, Snapcaster, Scryb Ranger, aven mindsensor)-can't handle them without leaving my gameplan...
After playtesting with 2 pieced of artifact removal MD or Skirk Prospector or Mogg Fanatic or tons of removal I came to a solution that has suited me the best so far: playing Jitte myself.
Since Gobbolord suggest to pack removal like there is no tomorrow, I thought instead of a second Pyrokiesis or Lightning bolt I could just pack Jitte. It can take care of creatures as well and trade positively. It can be a thread to combo, since it can make life. It is a serious threat to my opponent, 'cause it can give +2/+2 and it takes care of opposing jitte, even when it's flashed in by SFM.
You just need to draw it like pyrokinesis.
Like the idea, but since I don't lose to equipament in quite some time, will not be testing it.
If you do, please run them along with Warren Instigator or/and Bloodmark Mentor. Firs/Double Strike with Jitte is gamebreaking.



I'm leaning toward the Chieftain Instigator build, but Warchief/Piledriver builds seem to be the ones putting up placings at SCG opens.
Because no one plays the Chieftain Version there... =/
-----

This is what I'm testing atm:
4 Wasteland
16 Montanha

4 Vial
4 Lackey

4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Matron Goblin
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege Gang Commander

2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire
2 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Pyroknesis

1 Kiki Jiki
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Goblin Warchief
1 Bloodmark Mentor (great against L.Souls, batterskull, and make some evil vlocking possibilities)

Tons of removal plan has worked well so far. I feel I have the uper hand against any creature MU, and most Agroo-control. That allowed me to work with the SB for different MU's:
3 Surgical Extraction (Dredge, combos in general)
3 Relic of Progenitus (Dredge, Maverick)
3 Pithing Needle (UW/Esper, and lot of others stuff (elves,affinity,Loam, etc))
2 Thorn of Amethyst (better agains Hive Mind and Burn/Enchantress)
2 Mindbreak Trap (better against TES and Belcher)
2 Pyroblast (Merfolk, any monoU deck (not UW or bant or whatever), and almost all combo decks.
What do you guys think of this approach? It's the removal heavy one, and I'm loving it (para-pa-pa-paaaa)
(ps:did 3-1 yesterday, only losing the mirro to a bad muligan decision: G3 kept 3 lands, Knesis, Chieftain, Shooter and Stingscourge. Should have mulliganed... Won against Stasis 2-0, Maverick 2-0 and Bant 2-0, all easy games)

Edit: @Jrw: Did no more testing with caverns, since it'll take me a long time to aquire then, and by then you guys will already have a good answer for that =]

[Davran]

Played a quick 4 rounder last night (2nd) with the following list:

4x Wasteland
17x Mountain

4x Lackey
4x Matron
4x Chieftain
4x Ringleader
3x Warren Instigator
2x Siege-gang Commander
2x Mogg War Marshal
2x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Stingscourger
2x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

4x Tarfire
1x Pyrokinesis
4x Aether Vial

Sideboard:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Shattering Spree
2x Anarchy
3x Red Elemental Blast


Some thoughts:

Piledriver vs. Mogg War Marshal: I decided to try out 0 Piledrivers (I had been running 2) and opted for War Marshal instead. Overall, I was happy with this decision. War Marshal into Chieftain is harder to deal with for my opponents than Piledriver into Chieftain, especially since pro-blue isn't all that relevant right now. Lastly, War Marshal made my Gempalms relevant again.

Kiki Jiki vs. the 4th Tarfire: I took gobolord's thoughts to heart about running more removal, and it absolutely paid off. Matron for Tarfire won me a game round 2, as did just naturally drawing them. Kiki Jiki was fun, but he was always very win more. The extra removal is a much better top deck, and is always welcome in the opening 7.

4x Tarfire 1x Pyrokiesis vs. 3x Tarfire 2x Pyrokinesis: This is something I am going to test out next week to free up at least one sideboard slot. 5 removal spells seems right to me, now I just need to tweak the numbers. I'm finding that I side Pyro in quite a bit, so I think it's time to try out an extra one in the main deck.

[ivanpei]

I've been testing cavern after getting my set. The card is ridiculously broken in this deck. I am very confident it puts goblins back on the Legacy map. It pretty much gives you the early game Unstoppable Lackey (they don't always have plow) or pushes through the critical ringleader/matron.

Usually how goblins loses its games is when the last bomb in hand gets dealt with. This is usually matron/ringleader/sgc and we go into top deck mode. Before we can recover, we get steamrolled by goyfs/delver/batterskull. What cavern does is make sure your bombs resolve. No more playing around daze or getting blown out by a force of will. The card is insane. I'm playing the following manabase which is less stable but working OK so far:

1 Mountain
3 Badlands
1 Taiga (sb splash tinstreet hooligan)
8 Red fetch
4 Cavern
4 Waste
2 Port

I guess I could cut the ports, but I feel more comfortable having a good land disruption suit.