[Deck] Goblins

[Yuri8]

I'll definitely try him too, seems like he could be good addition to my 4mwm and 4chieftain list list. Dunno what will come out but hooligan might be be the one. I'm really excited because this is first useful goblin atfer 3 years of nothing and since he has "azorius" in his flavour text we might get more in Ravnica!

[ScatmanX]

I disagree. Here's why: Stingscourger + Aether Vial + Cavern of Souls

Weirding can only be played by casting it off a Badlands on your turn.

Stingscourger can be SnT'd into play on your opponent's turn, Vialed into play on your opponent's turn, and cast uncounterably off Cavern on your turn.

Stinger is better than Weirding because you can use it on your opponent's turn, or make it uncounterable on your turn, and it will never be dead in hand because you didn't draw a fetchland.
Agree with everything.
Also, they can't Missdirect a Stingscourger.


I'll definitely try him too, seems like he could be good addition to my 4mwm and 4chieftain list list. Dunno what will come out but hooligan might be be the one. I'm really excited because this is first useful goblin atfer 3 years of nothing and since he has "azorius" in his flavour text we might get more in Ravnica!
Wow! Havnica was in 2009! That's almost 3 years already! (september)
Maybe we can even think of an experimental list featuring Krenko and the goblin from Planechase. 8 dudes for 2 cards seems fun =D

[SaberTooth]

I disagree. Here's why: Stingscourger + Aether Vial + Cavern of Souls

Weirding can only be played by casting it off a Badlands on your turn.

Stingscourger can be SnT'd into play on your opponent's turn, Vialed into play on your opponent's turn, and cast uncounterably off Cavern on your turn.

Stinger is better than Weirding because you can use it on your opponent's turn, or make it uncounterable on your turn, and it will never be dead in hand because you didn't draw a fetchland.

i run stingscourger and warren weirding :)

[Pee-Dee-2]

@jrw: oh yeah, the good old waste/port lock :eek:

@all: the more I think about the new guy, I agree with you guys. Could be a real deal...not the first target, but a good addition in our deck. With him, the fantastic Mogg War Marshals will get much better.

@Sabertooth: I played the splash a very long time with and without WW. You don't need ist and the mono red version is better. Often, it is enough to bounce the bad guys. You don't need to let them be sacrificed.
You don't need to cripple your manabse by playing fetchies and Duals which will be wasted and stifled if you would do better without it. Also Perish and Virtue's Ruin are nice cards but not needed.

[(nameless one)]

Why so much excitement over Krenko? It's not like he helps against the deck's bad matchups.

[GoboLord]

It's not like he helps against the deck's bad matchups.

(1) It's not like you can judge that yet.
(2) It's not like this is the only criterion for including cards in our deck. I mean: Aether Vial doesn't help against Storm Combo (aka. the deck's bad matchup) either...so why so much excitement over Vial?



.....................................
On a different note:
What do you guys think are our bad MU right now? Or asked differently: I'd like to hear some estimates about our current MUs in terms of "very good", "good", "even", "bad" & "very bad".

Gimme some lists, guys!

e.g.

Esperblade: good
Maverick: even
RUG Thresh: bad
TES: very bad
....

[jrw1985]

Why so much excitement over Krenko? It's not like he helps against the deck's bad matchups.

Does my sarcasm meter go up to 11?

You are absolutely right, sir. Players on this thread should in no way be excited that a card which doubles the number of synergistic creatures they have in play for free each turn exponentially and can win the game by itself has just been spoiled.

You are also entirely valid in pointing out that this exponential-growth goblin generator will in no way help our bad MUs, since, as you clearly and certainly are aware, Goblins decks seldom, if ever, win through a line of play that involves having more bodies on the ground than their opponents.

And I hate you.

[Humphrey]

I like him, hes cute. He would be better with an ass of 4, but well..

The biggest concern i currently have with goblins is the inconsistency on draws. I lost lots of games because I was either flood or screwed and the tier decks can circumvent that by playing Brainstorm, Top, GSZ and other manipulation. We lack that and I dont see a goblincard that can fix this :(
Maybe a Ringleader for 3 cards and cc3

[SaberTooth]

@jrw: oh yeah, the good old waste/port lock :eek:

@all: the more I think about the new guy, I agree with you guys. Could be a real deal...not the first target, but a good addition in our deck. With him, the fantastic Mogg War Marshals will get much better.

@Sabertooth: I played the splash a very long time with and without WW. You don't need ist and the mono red version is better. Often, it is enough to bounce the bad guys. You don't need to let them be sacrificed.
You don't need to cripple your manabse by playing fetchies and Duals which will be wasted and stifled if you would do better without it. Also Perish and Virtue's Ruin are nice cards but not needed.

i'm nobody to criticize your arguments, because are based on personal experience. In my, at least, the splash helped a lot, not only with WW.
i'll give one more try to monored... but... idk

[(nameless one)]

Does my sarcasm meter go up to 11?

You are absolutely right, sir. Players on this thread should in no way be excited that a card which doubles the number of synergistic creatures they have in play for free each turn exponentially and can win the game by itself has just been spoiled.

You are also entirely valid in pointing out that this exponential-growth goblin generator will in no way help our bad MUs, since, as you clearly and certainly are aware, Goblins decks seldom, if ever, win through a line of play that involves having more bodies on the ground than their opponents.

And I hate you.

I didn't mean it like that. Outside of storm-based combo, there are bad matchups that could help Goblins.

Cavern helps, at some point Kiki-Jiki helps re-buy CIP/ETB effects.

Yes, Mogg War Marshall is great in stalling aggro decks but at four mana, is it worth running Krenko? At four mana.

I am pretty sure that at four mana, it was discussed that a theoretical Goblin Hivemaster would cost to much. How is Krenko special/different?

I don't mean to put people down. I'm just trying to have a discussion.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Krenko, with his cute name fits right in our build maybe 1-2 maindeck ..... more chump blockers for goyfy and kotr late games yahoo :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Davran]

On a different note:
What do you guys think are our bad MU right now? Or asked differently: I'd like to hear some estimates about our current MUs in terms of "very good", "good", "even", "bad" & "very bad".

Gimme some lists, guys!

e.g.

Esperblade: good
Maverick: even
RUG Thresh: bad
TES: very bad
....

A list based on my own experience:

Maverick - Even
Punishing Maverick - Bad
U/W Blade - Good
RUG - Bad
TES/ANT - Very bad
Rock - Even/Good
High Tide - Bad
Hive Mind - Bad/Very Bad
Team America/BUG - Good
U/W Miracle - Not sure yet...seems even/bad, but I haven't done much testing
Dredge - Very bad/Bad
Reanimator - Bad
Ravager Affinity - Good
Tezzeret Affinity - Very good
Merfolk - Very good
Show and Tell - Bad
MUD - Even
Painted Stone - Bad
Armageddon Stax - Bad

Note my scale here:
Very good - 70/30
Good - 60/40
Even - 50/50
Bad - 40/60
Very Bad - 30/70

[Ace/Homebrew]

I am pretty sure that at four mana, it was discussed that a theoretical Goblin Hivemaster would cost to much. How is Krenko special/different?

I don't mean to put people down. I'm just trying to have a discussion.

Excellent point! I'll stick with Goblin Hivemaster as bad at 4 mana. For reference: Wirewood Hivemaster

At 4 mana that still looks bad. Krenko seems playable as a 1 or 2 of (I'm thinking 1...). He's a 3/3 which is a pretty big deal for a goblin. He's legendary which is why I like one of him instead of two. Putting 1 goblin into play each time you play a goblin is similar but different to putting a goblin for a goblin all at once.
Goblins is easy to learn but hard to master because of combat math. Krenko seems good because it messes with combat math.

Having a haste enabler with 2 or 3 goblins on the board makes Krenko scary. Let's say our haste enabler is Goblin Chieftain. The other two goblins are 1/1 tokens. Krenko hits the table. He makes 4 tokens letting you swing in with +8 power on top of the 6 already on the table.
Testing will prove his worth, but he looks promising. My current daydream is that he can generate enough fodder to survive a snuck in Emrakul. =)

[ScatmanX]

What makes me think that he is good, it that he can generate "board advantage", combined with ANY other goblin. He is great with Warchief, Chieftain, Piledriver, MWM, Sharpshooter, PROSPECTOR... Not relying on Matron/Ringleader to bring this kind of board presence must be kind of nice.

[jrw1985]

I didn't mean it like that. Outside of storm-based combo, there are bad matchups that could help Goblins.

Cavern helps, at some point Kiki-Jiki helps re-buy CIP/ETB effects.

Yes, Mogg War Marshall is great in stalling aggro decks but at four mana, is it worth running Krenko? At four mana.

I am pretty sure that at four mana, it was discussed that a theoretical Goblin Hivemaster would cost to much. How is Krenko special/different?

I don't mean to put people down. I'm just trying to have a discussion.

Fair enough. Lifelong enemy pass rescinded.

Krenko, from what I can surmise, helps against combo in that it's another card that can set up T3 kills off of Lackey and Piledriver and a Lord, Lackey MWM and Chieftain (wait, that's only 19 damage... ok let's assume the combo player had to fetch), or some other permutation that I'm sure someone out there will feel the need to write 20 different versions of (and bless your heart for it).

But, no, he doesn't REALLY do anything against combo, but he's a Goblin! He's not supposed to fucking do anything against combo!

Combo is, generally, considered our BAD MU, against which Krenko does little. Fine. That's why they printed Chalice and Thorn. But against the rest of the field the dude is a HOUSE!

And who cares if he costs 4 mana? It's Goblins, broseph. We don't pay for shit.

[GoblinSettler]

And who cares if he costs 4 mana? It's Goblins, broseph. We don't pay for shit.

I've heard a joke that Tarmogoyf is green so you don't make the mistake of pitching it to Force.

Along those lines, I think Krenko costs 4 so that you play Chieftain first.

[Avatara]

Maybe a Ringleader for 3 cards and cc3
Sound like Sensation Gorger... if you are brave enough ^^

[1maarten1]

A list based on my own experience:

RUG - Bad
U/W Miracle - Not sure yet...seems even/bad, but I haven't done much testing
Dredge - Very bad/Bad

I agree with most of your analysis, but the 3 I quoted above I would like to say something about.

RUG - My experience against them isn't that bad, using the guidelines Jrw stated some pages earlier and chalice from the board games 2 and 3. I would describe it as even.

U/W Miracle - As long as they have just terminus and you can sandbag an ringleader or SCG or something you are fine, the MU start going bad when they find their 1 (or 2) off Entreat the Angels and put like 6 tokens on the field. Early pressure helps so that they have to play their entreat early for less angels. I would still describe the MU as bad tho.

Dredge - I have played dredge a long time myself, I think knowing the deck very well helps the MU a lot and maybe thats one of the reasons I find the MU even. (against a very experienced dredge player maybe a bit worse but still not bad i think). We have tons of ways to remove bridges, stingscourger to bounce their dread return targets. And (in my case) Leylines from the board. Relics work fine too altho those are worse then leylines of course.

[Pee-Dee-2]

@Sabertooth: Everything's ok. I only told you my experience, depending on years and lokal meta. A splash is not bad. The question is: In which cases is it better than the monoR? For me at the moment, there is nothing. So I'll stay at the monoR version at the moment.

Anyway. The UW terminator matchup isn't that easy but i think even/bad. If they can shut your early threats down with swords to Plowshares or counters, they will win with terminus and Entreat greater than 3! If you have preasure right from the start, they'll fail because they have to make 2-3 Angels which you can handle. A terminus only will be a problem, if you can't refresh the board.
I always try to leave a Ringleader/Matron in hand for this.
And: don't board the Stingscourger out! If you don't need to do it. I have seen players had done it and fail, having no removal against the Angels.

To Krenko: Nice diskussion. The Problem is that he doesn't do something alone (yeah, tapping for one Token)...sound's like Kiki. But he is Still 3/3 and monoR!! Oh...if Goblin wizard could be a 3/3...*dreaming*...
Krenko sounds a little bit like Boggart Mob, doesn't he? And the Mob has been played as a 1 or 2 of the time it has been printed.
It will be difficult to find a slot. Take out Removal? Hmmm...Take out a Chief? Hmmm...take out a Piledriver?
At first I thought, this would be the way to go. The more I think about, the less it is atractive. Piledriver helps in the first turns against Kombo by making pressure. Krenko is totally different to that and does more against aggro and Control.

But its nice to have one more potentially tool in our toolbox!

[Ace/Homebrew]

RUG - Using chalice from the board games 2 and 3, I would describe it as even.

Pretty sure Davran was talking pre-board. Fish could argue an even matchup against us if they run Engineered Plague in the board.

Sideboarding is a huge part of winning tournaments. When a single card destroys a deck's gameplan it is usually because you had a great sideboard, not because your deck has a good matchup against an opponent.
I agree with your assessment of U/W Miracle.

[1maarten1]

Pretty sure Davran was talking pre-board. Fish could argue an even matchup against us if they run Engineered Plague in the board.

Sideboarding is a huge part of winning tournaments. When a single card destroys a deck's gameplan it is usually because you had a great sideboard, not because your deck has a good matchup against an opponent.

Oh okay, I figured he was talking about playing 3 games against those decks. (with and without SB, like in real life).

[Davran]

I agree with most of your analysis, but the 3 I quoted above I would like to say something about.

RUG - My experience against them isn't that bad, using the guidelines Jrw stated some pages earlier and chalice from the board games 2 and 3. I would describe it as even.

U/W Miracle - As long as they have just terminus and you can sandbag an ringleader or SCG or something you are fine, the MU start going bad when they find their 1 (or 2) off Entreat the Angels and put like 6 tokens on the field. Early pressure helps so that they have to play their entreat early for less angels. I would still describe the MU as bad tho.

Dredge - I have played dredge a long time myself, I think knowing the deck very well helps the MU a lot and maybe thats one of the reasons I find the MU even. (against a very experienced dredge player maybe a bit worse but still not bad i think). We have tons of ways to remove bridges, stingscourger to bounce their dread return targets. And (in my case) Leylines from the board. Relics work fine too altho those are worse then leylines of course.

I'm talking pre-board here. Sideboarding is like the wild wild west - we're bringing in hate, they're bringing in hate. It really comes down to who has the better hate piece and who can resolve it first. Pre-board is also more useful for a match-up analysis because it gives us a better indication of what we should be sideboarding for. Packing cards for an already good match-up is just silly.

I agree that RUG gets better if you can stick a Chalice at 1. The same thing can be said of TES and High Tide.

Your analysis of Miracle lines up with my limited experience vs. the deck. I'm uncomfortable calling it so soon since the deck is a relatively new contender in the meta. Playing around Terminus is absolutely the way to go, but that doesn't make it any less of a blow-out on turn 10 when you are swinging in with lethal and he casually casts a Brainstorm into Terminus.

As for Dredge - I also play it myself, so I have a solid knowledge of how it works. If the pilot goes all in on the Bridge from Below plan, we definitely have a more favorable match-up. It really depends how explosive their draw is. Post board, Firestorm is an absolute beating, as is Elesh-norn. Lucky for us, Dredge is still considered to be cheap by legacy standards, so there are plenty of inexperienced pilots out there.

[Tacosnape]

Krenko, to me, is Kiki-Jiki. He's incredible if he sticks on a board where you have other Goblins. So to me, you've gotta ask two questions:

1. Is he better than Kiki-Jiki, who isn't getting run?
2. If so, does he deserve a slot in the deck?

And right now I've got a maybe to both. I think he's a hair better than Kiki in this deck. I don't know if he's worth a position though.

[jrw1985]

Krenko, to me, is Kiki-Jiki. He's incredible if he sticks on a board where you have other Goblins. So to me, you've gotta ask two questions:

1. Is he better than Kiki-Jiki, who isn't getting run?
2. If so, does he deserve a slot in the deck?

And right now I've got a maybe to both. I think he's a hair better than Kiki in this deck. I don't know if he's worth a position though.

To answer your questions:
1. I don't think Krenko is a hair better. I think he's WAYYY better than Kiki-Jiki.
First, RR2 > RRR2
Second, Kiki's copy dies
Third, Kiki's copy never happens if the target is destroyed in response to Kiki's activation
Fourth, the most powerful play you can have with Kiki is copying SGC. Krenko basically copies SGC with every activation.

Kiki does have haste though...

2. Yes, he deserves a slot in the deck. Goblins had maindecked Tuktuk scrappers and Sharpshooters. I think we can agree that Krenko is less situational and a little more deserving than either of those.

[ScatmanX]

Krenko... He's incredible if he sticks on a board where you have other Goblins.
I agree here.


1. Is he better than Kiki-Jiki, who isn't getting run?
Kiki Jiki IS getting run. We came back to use it in Instigator builds.
Also, we can't affirm which one is better in a vacuum, just like we can't just chose Warchief or Chieftain disregarding the rest of the decklist.
But he is comparable to Kiki in a way that they are both better with other creatures. Krenko, nonetheless, is better than Kiki with goblins like Warchief, Chieftain, and I guess even MWM.


2. If so, does he deserve a slot in the deck?
Depending on the decklist, he does.
Krenko was amazing in testing so far, but was not good with some cards I though it would, like Piledriver.
I'm thinking of trying an Rb list again, with 2-3 Krenkos, that feat 4 Frogtosser Banneret. Imo, Krenko being played on the 3rd turn could be severely gamebreaking.

OH! And he was amazing with Prospector! OMG, simply beautiful.

[BigBopper]

About the discussion concerning Krenko I have to say, that I compared him to Wort, Boggart Auntie the first time I saw it. Both cost 4 mana (two of them colored) and are legendary. Both create board advantage but without instand speed and they are both 3/3. Alright Wort has Fear but has been proven to be win more and requires black splash.
Generally I don't it's right to compare him with any other card. He does something goblins are supposed to to: swarm. And he synergieses REALLY good with warchief, piledriver, sharpshooter, SGC and Prospecter, not to mention Ringleader and Matron, which work for every goblin. I mean which goblin is good on his own, even if you resolve a ringleader and draw 4 cards doesn't mean you win the game...
I would try him as a 1-off in Tuktuk's spot (also 4cc).

About MUs I think the RUG Tempo games are even, pre-board we should be up, thanks to cavern of souls and past board you should watch out for firesprout/rough-tumble/pyroclasm and keep some threats back in hand.
The U/W miracle control games should be pretty much on our side, since they only have StP for first turn lackey with CoS and Force/Spell Pierce for Vial. If one of them sticks it's getting really rough for them. It's the same here that you should keep terminus in mind and keep something back in hand (like a matron or s.th.).
Finally I think we got a pretty good preboard MU vs. Dredge, to tons of removal, which can be used on our goblins as well, Fanatic, Prospecter, Sharpshooter, MWM and Stinger compared to most other decks. Past-board we have probably as much hate as everyone else, so I would say that's about even.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Krenko was amazing in testing so far, but was not good with some cards I though it would, like Piledriver.

Can you expand upon this? Thanks in advance =)

[ScatmanX]

Can you expand upon this? Thanks in advance =)
Played several games pre-boarded against Maverick, with this list:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wastelands
2 Rishadan Port
9 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki

2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg Warmarchall
1 Skirk Prospector

3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain

1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tarfire
1 Goblin sharpshooter
2x Krenko
(not suggesting this list. Just showing to make clear where my testing came from)

Made notes for when he appeared:
- Twice he didn't had haste, and got StP'd
- Once I won with T2 Warchief, T3 Krenko, making 2 Tokens, T4 Matron for Prospector, Prospector, Krenko for 6, sac 6 guys for SGC + Chieftain. Opponent had Mom, Qasali and Relicary by then, and simply lost.
- Grinding game. Had some goblins, he had some dudes, until Matron for Krenko, that came from Vial with Chieftain on the table swarmed him on 2 turns.
- a game or two I could not cast him due to Jitte.
- The scenarios where he was good, having a huge Piledriver was never great, because he was just chumped, but the tokens could do the hard work. Maybe if we play against people with less blockers, Pilly should be better, but imo more MWM can do the work.
- Not playing with Tuktuk made Jitte won a couple of games, but playing him will make the curve quite high, and maybe make the deck need more lands. Don't know how to fix this yet. Removing Kiki could be an option.
- Once it got ridiculus, and I attacked with 40 tokens the turn next he came into play.

All in all, against Mav, if they don't remove him fast, and by fast I mean 1 turn, he will win the game.

Well, that's what I got for now...

[Ace/Homebrew]

First and foremost... this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-Bragging-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=648383&viewfull=1#post648383)

Thanks for the follow up explanation.
Do you think Krenko might help us against combo? You had mentioned "people with less blockers". Since we can't hate against combo without diluting our plan we often have to just win first. I'd side in Piledrivers 5-X against combo in a heartbeat except Wizards needs to print one (maybe with pro white:tongue:).
My guess is that Krenko is too expensive (4CMC), too slow (no haste), and too legendary (to be worth playing more than 2) to really be our extra piledrivers against combo...

[ScatmanX]

First and foremost... this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-Bragging-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=648383&viewfull=1#post648383)
Fuck! Thanks for the guy for the namedrop =]



Thanks for the follow up explanation.
Do you think Krenko might help us against combo? You had mentioned "people with less blockers". Since we can't hate against combo without diluting our plan we often have to just win first. I'd side in Piledrivers 5-X against combo in a heartbeat except Wizards needs to print one (maybe with pro white:tongue:).
My guess is that Krenko is too expensive (4CMC), too slow (no haste), and too legendary (to be worth playing more than 2) to really be our extra piledrivers against combo...
Yeah, if we remove Piledriver, our chances against Combo drops drastically.
Krenko i a card that, like Kiki, have a small porcentage of chance of winning the game on T3 without Piledrivers, so that's cool, but he certainly does not help against combo like Piledriver does.

And yeah, good Pro-White goblin would be awesome. Too bad Goblin Outlander sucks, and Goblin Wizard is a tad to expensive/mana hungry.

[PedroFilipe92]

A new question shines for me right now:
Actually, it is the right time to cut the artifact removal from our mainboard, play only our Tuktuks in sideboard?
In my list, i´m thinking in cutting 1 tuktuk (and use 2 in sb, instead of 1) and 2 instigators to play again with 3 Mogg War Marshall.
Opinions?

[Mandalay]

What you guys think of Krenko?

[from Cairo]

What you guys think of Krenko?

Maybe try reading the last 3 or so pages of the thread?

[supachai]

Krenko has been pretty amazing. Bust out wins from nowhere (like 2 goblins in play to 15+ damage in a turn) and holds off Knights and Goyfs with ease. Unfortunately he really needs haste to be useful, as he is the first target for removal. I've traditionally run 7 haste enablers (4 Warchiefs + 3 Chieftain) along with 3 War Marshals and I'm glad Krenko will find himself at home in my deck:

MD

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerater
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Mogg Fanatic

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
14 Mountain

SB

2 Pyrokinesis
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Anarchy
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

With a higher curve, I do believe 22 lands is recommended if not necessary, though I haven't had trouble at 22 myself. Not really sure why everyone else is having trouble fitting him in; I had a Sharpshooter that didn't ever do anything so it was the first to go. I've played this list extensively and I'm confident about my card choices.

Anyhow, I'm really excited about Krenko. While it's (probably) not going to make Goblins a top tier deck, it is very fun to play with, adds a lot more options and strategy to our game plan, and can actually benefit a couple of our matchups. Let me know what you think!

[Pee-Dee-2]

Why do you need Scrapper main, if you play things like Krenko, Stingscourger and MWM? He is useful against Equipments, but which equ do you fear with this list?

- Jitte: Powerful, it is their removal and makes them living. But with this board, you make more Token than he can erase and deal more damage, than he could gain live

- Batterskull: I often raised 2 Batterskull without havin' a Scrapper. It's possible and here, you can chumb it before you bounce the token.

- SoFaI: Oh yeah...maybe the one we want to be eatin' by a scrapper. But still the one of this three, which is underplayed

So in my opinion, Scrapper do its best in the sideboard in the first match.

Changes could be:
- 1 Fanatic
- 1 Scrapper
- 1 Piledriver

+ 2 Pyrokinesis (depends on meta)
+ 1 Tarfire (depends on meta)

or

- 1 Fanatic
- 1 Scrapper

+ 1 MWM
+ 1 Chieftain

...sounds like heavy aggro, doesn't it?

[SaberTooth]

i think that krenko can be a really good update, i mean... he can be a huge problem for our opponents and, at least will eat removal fast, so he can cover our gobbos. with 3 gobbos, he can build an army without the danger of a sweeper, so... i'll test it
and i love it

[Davran]

Goblin Battle Jester - 3R

Whenever you cast a red spell, target creature can't block this turn.

2/2

Well, I guess we can write this one off. Apparently all new goblins must cost 4...

[supachai]

Why do you need Scrapper main, if you play things like Krenko, Stingscourger and MWM? He is useful against Equipments, but which equ do you fear with this list?

- Jitte: Powerful, it is their removal and makes them living. But with this board, you make more Token than he can erase and deal more damage, than he could gain live

- Batterskull: I often raised 2 Batterskull without havin' a Scrapper. It's possible and here, you can chumb it before you bounce the token.

- SoFaI: Oh yeah...maybe the one we want to be eatin' by a scrapper. But still the one of this three, which is underplayed

So in my opinion, Scrapper do its best in the sideboard in the first match.

Changes could be:
- 1 Fanatic
- 1 Scrapper
- 1 Piledriver

+ 2 Pyrokinesis (depends on meta)
+ 1 Tarfire (depends on meta)

or

- 1 Fanatic
- 1 Scrapper

+ 1 MWM
+ 1 Chieftain

...sounds like heavy aggro, doesn't it?

I'm actually seriously considering your second set of suggestions. Fanatic isn't really pulling it's weight and I want to add one more MWM and/or Chieftain. I really dislike non Goblins MD and I honestly don't think we need Pyrokinesis in any matchup other than maybe elves (considering cutting it from the board). Also, I'm too scared of Jitte to cut my miser's tuktuk XD

[jrw1985]

Just ordered my playset of Krenko from SCG.

I was thinking of trying out this silly list once I get my order in:

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 SGC

2 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Chieftain
4 Warchief
4 Gempalm

1 Skirk Prospector
1 Sharpshooter

4 Wasteland
3 Port
4 Cavern of Souls
11 Mountain

Pretty simple setup. Play a shitload of hastey goblins then double them up with Krenko, then use Gempalm to clear the way and Skirk/Sharpshooter to play more guys and throw damage to the dome when need be. There's not much to it. No real removal so I included 3 Ports for more control elements. I'll be interested to Goldfish this later and see how it plays out.

[fimo]

shouldn' t krenko replace SGC? when we have ringleader and krenko as 4cc would we still need a 5cc SGC? seems like krenko could replace SGC so that we could lower the mana curve a bit.
isn' t Skirk/Sharpshooter just win more? If you have a Krenko going sould be game over and recruiting Skirk + Sharpshooter + Krenko seems impossible if the deck plays few copies of them. Skirk is a dead card otherwise.

[GoboLord]

Just ordered my playset of Krenko from SCG.

I was thinking of trying out this silly list once I get my order in:

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 SGC

2 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Chieftain
4 Warchief
4 Gempalm

1 Skirk Prospector
1 Sharpshooter

4 Wasteland
3 Port
4 Cavern of Souls
11 Mountain

Pretty simple setup. Play a shitload of hastey goblins then double them up with Krenko, then use Gempalm to clear the way and Skirk/Sharpshooter to play more guys and throw damage to the dome when need be. There's not much to it. No real removal so I included 3 Ports for more control elements. I'll be interested to Goldfish this later and see how it plays out.

Right now I can't imagine that a list with quite high CMC and many double-R mana requirements will be better in any case than the conventional setup which features Piledrivers. In my oppinion you are overdoing it with the "swarm" tactics. 8 haste enablers in the cc=3 slot have never provided the explosiveness that they theoretically promise. I think Chieftain is a fallacy here - he doesn't "abuse" neither Mogg War Marshal nor Krenko enough.
Your decklist is (in case Krenko doesnt stick to the board) just a slow, un-explosive, removal-light aggro deck. However, if that is what you want, your list is good :cool:

Sorry if this is putting you down but I'm just being honest and giving you my educated oppinion on that.

[GoboLord]

shouldn' t krenko replace SGC? when we have ringleader and krenko as 4cc would we still need a 5cc SGC? seems like krenko could replace SGC so that we could lower the mana curve a bit.
isn' t Skirk/Sharpshooter just win more? If you have a Krenko going sould be game over and recruiting Skirk + Sharpshooter + Krenko seems impossible if the deck plays few copies of them. Skirk is a dead card otherwise.

Your oppinion on SGC and Skirk Prospector suggests that you maybe overlooking their value against Jitte and Lifelinking creatures (looking at you, Batterskull).
SGC should not be cut in any case (and abolutely not replace Krenko - they just don't do the same thing) and Skirk Prospector is not a "win more" card and is effective even in absence of Krenko and/or Sharpshooter.

[jrw1985]

Right now I can't imagine that a list with quite high CMC and many double-R mana requirements will be better in any case than the conventional setup which features Piledrivers. In my oppinion you are overdoing it with the "swarm" tactics. 8 haste enablers in the cc=3 slot have never provided the explosiveness that they theoretically promise. I think Chieftain is a fallacy here - he doesn't "abuse" neither Mogg War Marshal nor Krenko enough.
Your decklist is (in case Krenko doesnt stick to the board) just a slow, un-explosive, removal-light aggro deck. However, if that is what you want, your list is good :cool:

Sorry if this is putting you down but I'm just being honest and giving you my educated oppinion on that.

Oh, i don't feel put down at all. like I said, it's a silly list that I haven't even goldfished yet. I just want to see what Krenko can do in a list that really wants to exploit him.

[fimo]

Your oppinion on SGC and Skirk Prospector suggests that you maybe overlooking their value against Jitte and Lifelinking creatures (looking at you, Batterskull).

2 SGC MD can fight batterskull sometimes, but 90% of the times SGC is too slow for jitte, by the time SGC hits the table and you have 2 mana open, jitte has already 2 counters on it. It is a challenge enough beating early equipments with tuktuk/TSH main deck.


SGC should not be cut in any case (and abolutely not replace Krenko - they just don't do the same thing) and Skirk Prospector is not a "win more" card and is effective even in absence of Krenko and/or Sharpshooter.

I think it is wrong to have an extremely high curve. Six 4cc creatures + two 5cc is too much in my opinion. Unless one runs WI I m afraid those cards will be struggeling entering the battlefield. In my meta there are tons of wastelands, and warchiefs eat many removal. I haven t done any testing with the new goblin but I expect that taking out piledrivers/WI/removals to fit in a 4cc kenko is not gonna work smoothly. If an expensive goblins enters a list (and he may deserve the spot) another expensive goblin should go out, that s the way I see it.

Regarding Skirk Prospector, I think he is situational. Krenko gives him more value though.

[supachai]

Right now I can't imagine that a list with quite high CMC and many double-R mana requirements will be better in any case than the conventional setup which features Piledrivers. In my oppinion you are overdoing it with the "swarm" tactics. 8 haste enablers in the cc=3 slot have never provided the explosiveness that they theoretically promise. I think Chieftain is a fallacy here - he doesn't "abuse" neither Mogg War Marshal nor Krenko enough.
Your decklist is (in case Krenko doesnt stick to the board) just a slow, un-explosive, removal-light aggro deck. However, if that is what you want, your list is good :cool:

Sorry if this is putting you down but I'm just being honest and giving you my educated oppinion on that.

Do you think goblins should be built explosively nowadays?

My opinion, from experience, is that Goblins simply can't be the explosive deck it used to be. Sure, it can still have its moments when it overwhelms you in one turn, but its not how we tend to win, and how I've played it. Lackey often gets removed, and Piledrivers are too easily chumped. Goblins has always been aggro-control, and mid to late game is where we shine. We bury them in card and board advantage through Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm, Siege Gang, and now Krenko; but to get there, we need to survive the early game. With the exception of combo, our goal tends not to be kill them as quickly as possible but to slowly manage their threats, adapt to their board, and eventually kill them in one massive turn. Krenko helps immensely with that. War marshals help us get there.

I disagree that Chieftain doesn't "abuse" enough-hasted Krenko is extremely dangerous and in my experience it builds up a significant amount of extra damage through its lord effect.

Again, purely my opinion, but I don't know how people can get by on 20 land. I ran 23 (with ports) until Cavern was released. I think thats why people are hesitant about running 6 cards at 5 and 2 and 5. Honestly, if you up the land count I think that gives us a pretty great curve.

[Vandalize]

Cavern of Souls and Krenko dude. Seems like Goblins is back on track :D

Haven't played this deck since Batterskull was printed (and I still have a major crush for Dredge). But with those new additions, I've decided to give my goblins a spin.

This is my list post M13:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
12 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 AEther Vial
2 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Open Slot (Piledriver #3, Tarfire, Mogg Fanatic, Skirk Prospector)

SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 TukTuk Scrapper
SB: 1 Stingscourger
SB: 1 Brightstone Ritual (my secret awesome tech)

Any comments or suggestions? If things get ugly, I might splash black (probably -1 Rishadan Port, -8 Mountain, +7 Red Fetches, +2 Badlands), adding 4 Cabal Therapy and a couple Perish in the board.

And don't laugh at Brightstone Ritual, I've been able to pull a mini-Tacosnape's awesome Belcher foe slaughter.

Playing at Cockatrice (with my previous list):

G1, I'm on the draw, and I can't get a turn. Belcher fired me for 10000.

In: 4 Mindbreak Trap, 1 Brighstone Ritual
Out: 4 AEther Vial, 1 Stingscourger

G2, He attempts to Empty the Warrens for 12 turn 2, but I have Mindbreak Trap lock and loaded. He can't recover.

G3, I'm on the draw, he builds 16 Goblins in turn 1. I kept a good Lackey hand without any disruption, and I topdeck: BRIGHTMOTHERFUCKINGSTONE RITUAL. I procede to do: Mountain -> Brighstone Ritual, netting 16 red mana like a boss. Ringleader (12), revealing: Warchief, Piledriver, Mountain, Mindbreak Trap. Warchief (9) into Matron (7) grabbing Goblin Sharpshooter, and slaughter his army. Play Mogg War Marshal (6), Matron (4) for Piledriver. Play Lackey (3), Piledriver (2), Piledriver (1). Swung for 48.

[GoboLord]

Do you think goblins should be built explosively nowadays?

My opinion, from experience, is that Goblins simply can't be the explosive deck it used to be. Sure, it can still have its moments when it overwhelms you in one turn, but its not how we tend to win, and how I've played it. Lackey often gets removed, and Piledrivers are too easily chumped. Goblins has always been aggro-control, and mid to late game is where we shine. We bury them in card and board advantage through Matron, Ringleader, Gempalm, Siege Gang, and now Krenko; but to get there, we need to survive the early game. With the exception of combo, our goal tends not to be kill them as quickly as possible but to slowly manage their threats, adapt to their board, and eventually kill them in one massive turn. Krenko helps immensely with that. War marshals help us get there.

I disagree that Chieftain doesn't "abuse" enough-hasted Krenko is extremely dangerous and in my experience it builds up a significant amount of extra damage through its lord effect.

Again, purely my opinion, but I don't know how people can get by on 20 land. I ran 23 (with ports) until Cavern was released. I think thats why people are hesitant about running 6 cards at 5 and 2 and 5. Honestly, if you up the land count I think that gives us a pretty great curve.

Yes I do.
Grinding out games and winning by card-/board-advantage is a valid strategy against aggro or mid-range-aggro decks like Merfolk, Zoo, Canadian and Maverick.
However, as I see the meta right now we have to beat other decks as well, like U/W Mircale Contrl, BUG Deedstill, Esperblade, NicFit, Sneak Show and several Storm Combo Decks. Grinding out games won't work here since they have either a great amount of board-control (Terminus, Pernicious Deed, Grove of Burnwillows) or are just faster than we are.
Besides, we should not think black-and-white: there is no such thing as "decklist A is build explosively, decklist B can grind out games". Goblins can always be explosive and can always grind out games.
So for me the decklist jrw proposed isn't explosive enough to beat decks where we need to be explosive (due to lack of Piledrivers) AND in my oppinion decklists that feature 3-4 MWM and a decent number of spotremoval can grind out games well enough. There is no need to stress the grinding-out strategy by focusing on Krenko too much.

I'm not arguing against Krenko in general - just against hopping onto the "grinding-train" right now.

[supachai]

Besides, we should not think black-and-white: there is no such thing as "decklist A is build explosively, decklist B can grind out games". Goblins can always be explosive and can always grind out games.
So for me the decklist jrw proposed isn't explosive enough to beat decks where we need to be explosive (due to lack of Piledrivers) AND in my oppinion decklists that feature 3-4 MWM and a decent number of spotremoval can grind out games well enough. There is no need to stress the grinding-out strategy by focusing on Krenko too much.

I'm not arguing against Krenko in general - just against hopping onto the "grinding-train" right now.

I'm tending to agree with that first statement. Goblins can most certainly do both. It really comes down to which deck we're playing against, but also depends on your opening 7 sometimes-some hands are good, but just aren't explosive. Out of curiosity, what do you think is lacking in jrw's list that makes it less explosive? Piledrivers? I've always played a list similar to the one I posted above, and found that it was "explosive" enough.




Any comments or suggestions? If things get ugly, I might splash black (probably -1 Rishadan Port, -8 Mountain, +7 Red Fetches, +2 Badlands), adding 4 Cabal Therapy and a couple Perish in the board.



First off, I like your list. It's almost exactly like mine. -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Gempalm, +1 Tuktuk Scrapper, +1 Stingscourger. I'm debating the flex slot right now too. I still kinda have a soft spot for Fanatic, for the dredge mu, picking off moms, and negating Jittes that one crucial turn. How're 6 colorless sources working out for you? Board is a bit weak on combo, but it really depends on meta/personal choice (if you wanna improve other mu's instead). Other than that, looks great!

[GoboLord]

I'm tending to agree with that first statement. Goblins can most certainly do both. It really comes down to which deck we're playing against, but also depends on your opening 7 sometimes-some hands are good, but just aren't explosive. Out of curiosity, what do you think is lacking in jrw's list that makes it less explosive? Piledrivers? I've always played a list similar to the one I posted above, and found that it was "explosive" enough.

Well, Piledrivers certainly do make your list more explosive - so: yes, his list is lacking Piledrivers. But what makes your deck explosive too is spotremoval. As you said: you can just spam everything you have to the board - therefore being explosive without Piledrivers. However if you find your 6-7 Goblins staring at 2 walls (Batterskull/ Goyf/ Knight/ threshed Mongoose) you probably won't be able to attack. So cheap spotremoval is adds explosiveness to your deck. Somtimes you win games by constantly hitting your opponent with say 3 goblins while keeping his board cleared from creatures. We should realize that many decks today tend to run few creatures. Being able to remove them quickly (and reliably) kills two birds with one stone: (1) They can't block that much, (2) they lack winconditions.

[Pee-Dee-2]

Now we are talking about different ways of winning and different ways of fokusing our own deck.
It's true, against decks like Terminator, RUG Tempo and Sneak, we always want to have Piledrivers because they fastly can bring us home.
Against aggro our Drivers are not as good as they could be.

The mistake we all don't should do is, to compare and replace Krenko with Piledrivers/SGC. Like GobboLord said, they are not the same. Krenko on it's own do nothing for 4 Mana. Of course, Piledriver on it's own also do nothing but for only 2 mana ;)
With a few Goblins on the board, Piledriver would do a high amount of damage while Krenko maybe only spit a few little green men. Thats very different.

SGC should never been cut. Maybe a Krenko would bring in more tokens, but only with activation and without ability. I think we don't have to discuss why SGC is a very good Goblin, do we?

@GobboLord: I know Christian, we are not always the same meaning and I know your way of gameplay whereas a hold you meaning on high regard, but when I have a look onto the German meta, I think we are playing in different ones ;)
Don't you think, that 4 Piledrivers are too much? In turn you said "No" but in my experience and you know I also play this deck for years, I have never needed them in this count in the current meta.
Certainly, you must have a huge number of them in you deck to draw one of them during the first two turns (against Show and tell, Tempo, Kombo or something else) but I see the problem to have them often only being chumped or destroyed by pointremoval. In this cases I often wish to have Chieftains and War Marshal.
But mainly it depends on meta for sure.

Another point is your sentence with the walls. You often can run against 2 walls to make a few damage. I made many winnings of playing more aggressive against KotR and Goyf as being stalled by them.

All in all: In this deck we have a luxury problem. We have so many good Goblins which could be included and have only a few slots. It's more important than ever to think abot the meta at the next tournament. With all these cards and different gameplays we have to stay flexible. Like I always have said at German forums: There is neither "the one deck" nor "the one way of playing it".

At least to "Davran": No! :cool:

[GoboLord]

@GobboLord: I know Christian, we are not always the same meaning and I know your way of gameplay whereas a hold you meaning on high regard, but when I have a look onto the German meta, I think we are playing in different ones ;)
Don't you think, that 4 Piledrivers are too much? In turn you said "No" but in my experience and you know I also play this deck for years, I have never needed them in this count in the current meta.
Certainly, you must have a huge number of them in you deck to draw one of them during the first two turns (against Show and tell, Tempo, Kombo or something else) but I see the problem to have them often only being chumped or destroyed by pointremoval. In this cases I often wish to have Chieftains and War Marshal.
But mainly it depends on meta for sure.

Another point is your sentence with the walls. You often can run against 2 walls to make a few damage. I made many winnings of playing more aggressive against KotR and Goyf as being stalled by them.


About the meta-thing: we certainly DO play in different metas - as you never show up in Iserlohn (or Dortmund for the future) and I haven't been at "your" place (Dülmen for a year now. So this certainly can make a difference.

About Piledriver: You are right - they will catch spotremoval. However let's imagine this scenario:
You are attacking with 3 Tokens and X.
X can be either Piledriver or Chieftain (or anything else that you want to replace Piledriver with).
Now your opponent has a spotremoval for X.
Certainly the situation will be way more devastating for you if X is Chieftain (your other attacking creatures lose their +1/+1 bonus and are blocked without any casualties on your opponent's side).
Therefore "he will catch spotremoval and therefore be less useful" is not a valid argument, since ANY replacement on the Piledriver slot should be a threating creature that will catch spotremoval.
Now imagine the other situation:Your opponent has NO spotremoval for X. The best situation when this happens is when X is Piledriver (or stated differently: no single creature will do as much damage - when not spot-removal'ed - as Piledriver does).

In my last posting I underlined the value of spotremoval in our deck. Piledriver IS a spotremoval. No creature can "just chumpblock" a 5/2 or 7/2 or [...] 13/2 Piledriver - the creature will certainly die in the process. With spotremoval as Lightning Bolt/Gempalm/Stingscourger you can easily create situations where the only blocker for Piledriver is Tarmogoyf/Knigt/Batter-Germ (aka. The Wall). However, whatever replacement for Piledriver (or any other X) I can think of can very well be "just chumpblocked" (e.g. chumpblocking and surviving a battle with Chieftain is way easier for Tarmogoyf). On top of that there are effectively less creatures that are able to chumblock piledriver as there are for Chieftan (or other X): P-Diddy will just run through Snapcaster and Vendilion Clique due to protection from blue.

[Pee-Dee-2]

Ok, at this point you're right. I don't want to compare Chieftain and Piledriver because they work a different way. Often I play Chieftain without attacking with him because he would be blocked a died. Here is the +1/+1 and haste sometimes very effective although you are right "If (...) has removal or not", looking on Chieftain vs Piledriver on its own.

Yes, I showed up at Iserlohn last summer, but often the players and decks are the same between my tournaments and yours! ;)

The removal thing in our deck: I agree, I won't go out without removal!!!

GobboLord: Hey, when do you come and post again at mtg-forum? :wink:

[feline]

I noticed the last goblin list I saw was only running 2 cavern of souls, I wonder if that's because of trying to obtain 4 or that was on purpose, I'm thinking they just didn't have 2 more yet

I myself can't find anyone with these things to trade, I'm going to have to eat it and go online for these ones and wait by the mailbox for a few days. >^,^<

[Hof]

Krenko on it's own do nothing for 4 Mana. Of course, Piledriver on it's own also do nothing but for only 2 mana ;)
With a few Goblins on the board, Piledriver would do a high amount of damage while Krenko maybe only spit a few little green men.
OK... Assuming no blockers (best scenario for Piledriver) and assuming "a few other goblins" = 2:
Piledriver will do 20 damage in 4 turns.
In same amount of time Krenko will create 45 tokens and do 33 damage.

[fimo]

The mistake we all don't should do is, to compare and replace Krenko with Piledrivers/SGC. Like GobboLord said, they are not the same. Krenko on it's own do nothing for 4 Mana. Of course, Piledriver on it's own also do nothing but for only 2 mana ;)
With a few Goblins on the board, Piledriver would do a high amount of damage while Krenko maybe only spit a few little green men. Thats very different.
SGC should never been cut. Maybe a Krenko would bring in more tokens, but only with activation and without ability. I think we don't have to discuss why SGC is a very good Goblin, do we?

Unless you are planning to play with 62 cards MD, i m waiting to hear what you would remove to make room for Krenko.
looks like MWM, gempalm and probably piledriver synergize very well with each other AND with krenko so they stay as a 4 of. the core has to stay and probably the deck will do better with more than 4 haste enablers. What do you take out from the deck?



EDIT: I don t get the point of compairing piledriver with krenko.... I mean, one costs 2 mana and the other costs 4 they don t compete for the same spot

[Pee-Dee-2]

OK... Assuming no blockers (best scenario for Piledriver) and assuming "a few other goblins" = 2:
Piledriver will do 20 damage in 4 turns.
In same amount of time Krenko will create 45 tokens and do 33 damage.
In fact, that both would survive the turn they are sick, they will do this the next turns:

With 2 other Goblins, both 1/1
1. Piledriver
1. turn: sick
2. turn: 7 damage (Piledriver + two Goblins)
3. turn: 7 damage (Piledriver + two Goblins) = 14 dmage at all
4. turn: 7 damage (Piledriver + two Goblins) = 21 damage at all

Krenko
1. turn: sick
2. turn: 2 Damage (by the both other Goblins) and +3 Tokens
3. turn: 5 Damage (by the five Goblins) and +6 Tokens = 7 damage at all
4. turn: 11 without Krenko or 14 damage by attacking with all Goblins = 18 to 21 damage at all

So in these turns without blockers, removal etc., it is still the same amount of damage you can deal.

The difference is, that with Piledriver you can do it earlier by the cheaper mana cost.

So it's like I said. Both are good and surely, Krenko can create some Goblins, if he would be at the battlefield alone but they are not the same and don't work the same way.

@fimo:
No I won't running 62 cards ;). I don't know what to take out of my current list. The thing is also the curve. Krenko is at the 4 mana slot and not as cheap as a MWM or Piledriver. Maybe I'll cut one removal for him. I think I would not play more than 7 hasteenablers. With about 4 copies of Warchief and Chieftain in addition to Krenko, it would sound nice but is very slow if you don't have a vial.

I will test a Prospector + Krenko board because with this and SGC it could be like a 1 turn machine gun without needin' a sharpshooter. But I will test test test...

[Hof]

In fact, that both would survive the turn they are sick, they will do this the next turns:

With 2 other Goblins, both 1/1
1. Piledriver
1. turn: sick
2. turn: 7 damage (Piledriver + two Goblins)
3. turn: 7 damage (Piledriver + two Goblins) = 14 dmage at all
4. turn: 7 damage (Piledriver + two Goblins) = 21 damage at all

Krenko
1. turn: sick
2. turn: 2 Damage (by the both other Goblins) and +3 Tokens
3. turn: 5 Damage (by the five Goblins) and +6 Tokens = 7 damage at all
4. turn: 11 without Krenko or 14 damage by attacking with all Goblins = 18 to 21 damage at all

So in these turns without blockers, removal etc., it is still the same amount of damage you can deal.

The difference is, that with Piledriver you can do it earlier by the cheaper mana cost.

Yes, that is also correct.

My point was to show that Krenkos ability to, as you said, create "a few" goblins actually is comparable to Piledriver damage in a surprisingly short time frame, and also I was surprised by your statement that Krenko "does nothing" on his own, and I wanted to challenge that in particular. Because it seems to me that Krenko can in fact win the game all on its own in relatively short time and regardless of any blockers, and to the best of my knowledge no other goblin can do that.

On the comparison Piledriver vs. Krenko, yes they are differently costed, and they have different roles. But it doesn't mean this kind of comparison is not relevant.

[orcanmail]

So for me the decklist jrw proposed isn't explosive enough to beat decks where we need to be explosive (due to lack of Piledrivers) AND in my oppinion decklists that feature 3-4 MWM and a decent number of spotremoval can grind out games well enough. There is no need to stress the grinding-out strategy by focusing on Krenko too much.

I'm not arguing against Krenko in general - just against hopping onto the "grinding-train" right now.[/QUOTE]

Hey Cavern of Souls debate aside, it seems that u are arguing for a decklist similar to mine on p138!
The removal is certainly a key part, as is early MWM / Chieftains and maybe WI or Piledrivers. The 2cc slot is the most complicated part of the deck in my opinion.

Also the SB with Chalice and Thorn give a chance v combo, and relics are essential v GOYFS and mongoose.

Also I am starting to see engineered plagues again! They are apparently useful v humans but are a nightmare for us, only having chieftains and thorns allowed me to play through for the win.

[SaberTooth]

i think that sometimes, krenko is a smart play... conservative, we don't need to overextend to get presure, and, with piledriver, and a chieftain, it's really dangerous

[jrw1985]

Hmmmm.... Seems like my super horrible list without any removal or Piledrivers has been taken a little too seriously. It was really only ever meant as a shell for testing the power of Krenko. I did some goldfishing with it last night and in a vacuum Krenko is just fucking ridiculous. The problem though will be fitting him into a list that can use his abilities but doesn't give up too much to game to accomodate him.

The last list I ran at my local tourney worked very well for me. My Meta has a lot of Maverick and RUG, so my list is tuned to beat those Big 2. I'd like to squeeze Krenko in without changing the deck's structure too much.

Here's the decklist I last ran ...

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Warren Instigator

3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain

4 Goblin Warchief

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

2 Tarfire
2 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Pyrokinesis

2 Seige-Gang Commander

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
12 Mountain

(I'm kinda grouping them by functionality)

This list has been really strong, and I want to fir in Krenko without sacrificing the consistency of this deck. Here's where I feel I have the most flexibility.

3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Seige-Gang Commander

The most obvious card to cut would be Chieftain, I think. It's close to Krenko in CMC and I would still be left with 7 Lords.

The difficult question is: What else do I cut if I want to fit in a Prospector / Sharpshooter package? Those two cards can really exploit the board advantage Krenko can create. Prospector turns Krenko into a Brightstone Ritual, and teamed up with Sharpshooter also turns him into a Goblin War Strike. These three also give you a line of play that goes right over Elephant Grass, Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, whatever.

+1 Prospector
-1 Winstigator

+1 Krenko, Mob Boss
-1 Chieftain

+1 Sharpshooter
-1 SGC

I don't like the idea of cutting down to 1 SGC, but with Krenko around I feel that the CA lost from SGC is made up for.
Also , combined CMC of
Winstigator+Chieftain+SGC = RRRRRR3(9)
Prospector+Sharpshooter+Krenko=RRRR4(8)
So it actually lowers the curve of R needed by just a little bit, leaving a final list of...

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
1 Skirk Propector

3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Chieftain

4 Goblin Warchief

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

2 Tarfire
2 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Pyrokinesis

1 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
12 Mountain

I won't be able to play this list for a while, so what do you all think of it?

[ScatmanX]

I won't be able to play this list for a while, so what do you all think of it?
Looks good for testing.
I'd swap a Fanatic for a Stingscourger.
Let us know what you found out.

[BigBopper]

I won't be able to play this list for a while, so what do you all think of it?

Stinger is a good point. Maybe you wanna change Tarfire for another fanatic and gempalm? It's only for mother and delver and fanatic might handle both, while gempalm takes care of mavericks rest. That way you don't pump goyf.
I'd be interested if the 2 WInstigator do the work for you-instead I'd play another land and MWM for chump blocking, just thinking of RUG and Knights.

[Davran]

I won't be able to play this list for a while, so what do you all think of it?

I would probably switch one or both of the Fanatics for Stingscourger, but otherwise it looks like a nice base list for testing Krenko out.

[Mystical_Jackass]

With Krenko is it worth going up to ~6 Lords? If you're gonna proliferate, pumping out 3/3's just seems infinitely better than 2/2's. Even blocking, doubling up you can trade with most creatures evenly that aren't flying.

[woodjt5]

Guys, I like Krenko too, but I think we're focusing on the wrong legendary creature here.

How do we beat a Grislebrand? That is the question that every legacy deck should be asking itself these days, so I was hoping we could discuss some ideas:

1. Vial/Matron/Cavern + Stingscourger: Stingscourger can bounce the big fucker, but will never make it down through a wall of counterspells. So it needs to hit either a. off of the show and tell so they can never draw 7, or b. off of a vial so all the cards they draw can’t be used to counter him coming in, or c. uncounterable paid for by a cavern. Sometimes this won’t be enough, but stalling them out for a turn could buy enough time to get a kill. I would imagine that 1 stingscourger main should be minimum in today’s competitive meta, with possibly another 1 (or 2) in the board (or even main). If the big guy doesn't get #Grislebanned, 4 caverns might be a necessity.

2. SWARM: Krenko might help with this actually. We need to be doing a large amount of damage as quickly as possible, and preferably spread out over several bodies. Remember, it costs life to draw all of those cards, and we've never had trouble dealing absurd amounts of damage if left unmolested. The show and tell decks (and i guess reanimater as well, although that could be tougher) don't pack a bunch of removal...so once we stick some goblins we should be able to hit them fairly hard.

3. Piledriver: this goes along with the swarming tactic described above...a 7/7 lifelinking Yawgmoth's Will still dies when it is forced to block a 13/2 piledriver. Sure, they might gain 7 life back, but at that point, we've removed Grislebrand and should be way ahead.

4. Graveyard Hate: The tactics described in #1 seem much more feasible against Show and Tell than vs. reanimator. If they put a turn 2 Grislebrand into play, which is completely possible sicne we have no way to stop it from happening, we will be screwed. So, a preemptive graveyard nuke will probably be required. Tormod's crypt, Leyline, or Surgical, or even some mix, seems necessary.

Obviously these are not great solutions and each, in its own way, is assuming good Goblin draws at the right time. Are we just screwed? Can we beat these decks? Any other ideas? Help!

[Pee-Dee-2]

Hmm...in a meta with an average of Maverick and RUG (I think you mean Canadian) playing without MWM seems a bit strange.

Is Winstigator so good? All the time I've played it, it was "win more" or I wished it to change into another Goblin.

For me, I would change these things:

-2 Warren Instigator
-2 Mogg Fanatic
-1 Goblin Piledriver


+1 Land
+1 SGC
+2 MWM
+1 Stingscourger

Something like that...I'm going to test it also.

[Holly]

@woodjt5
1. They still can draw 7 in response to Stingscourgers trigger, if brought into play via Show n Tell, so it wont really help..

Only good chance is to allready have a good board position, hope they did not brought him in via Sneak Attack (since then they'll probably attack with Emrakul as well).
I think we're kinda screwed if they put down Griselbrand. Killing them with swarming is hard vs 7/7 lifelink, so you allready need a piledriver in play or have vial on 2 / caverns, otherwise they'll counter him.
Attacking with power 3+ and casting Pyrokinesis? -> Misdirection

I'd still pack 2-3 Stingscourgers in my list, they're good in a lot of matchups and if they can "only" bring in Emrakul into play with Show n Tell..well in this case he's simply awesome.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Am I missing something, why can't you just bring in pithing needle/revoker on top of scourger?

[GoboLord]

[QUOTE=jrw1985;6497160...leaving a final list of...

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
1 Skirk Propector

3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Chieftain

4 Goblin Warchief

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

2 Tarfire
2 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Pyrokinesis

1 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
12 Mountain

I won't be able to play this list for a while, so what do you all think of it?[/QUOTE]

Your list looks very good - well done!
I disagree with everyone that suggests you to cut Mogg Fanatics. If you want to find out if Krenko is worth it you should have as many Goblin creatures as possible. Winstigator also enables sick "X into Krenko"-moves - I like.
However people are right about Stingscourger - you should run at least one copy.
My suggestions would be:
-1 Chieftain
-1 Tarfire
+1 Stinger
+1 SGC

I can only quote Scatman here: let us know what your testing revealed.

[jrw1985]

Am I missing something, why can't you just bring in pithing needle/revoker on top of scourger?

You could, but then you're devoting at least 3 SB slots to cards that are actually quite narrow in application. I say you need 3 slots because they're not Goblins so you don't have much of a chance of hitting them when you need them otherwise. And i say they have narrow applications because shutting off Griz does nothing against Sneak Attack, shutting off sneak attack does nothing against Show and Tell, Shutting off Griz won't stop a Reanimated Iona. In other worse, Needle effects are just too easy to play around and aren't really applicable in other MUs.

Stingscourger is by far the best choice for bouncing a SnT target. He's weak against Sneak Attack but is still playable at instant speed with Vial. I'll probably stat mainboarding one in the list I posted earlier today, and probably one in the board too, given how popular fatties are right now.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Okay, well I meant run both moreso. I see what you're saying.

Either way, you're paying :1: and whether naming Sneak Attack or Grizzy, you're shutting down half their options in one play. It almost seems like a "why wouldn't you" thing.

[ScatmanX]

Am I missing something, why can't you just bring in pithing needle/revoker on top of scourger?
We can. I'm playing some Revokers on the SB right now, because they can be a pain for some storm combos too...

About beating SnT, I think we're one of the most well positioned decks to do that.
I mean, even if they cast SnT for Grizzlebran T2, we still hame many good lines of play.
1st: Mull to a Lackey. Preferably with Caverns of Souls. If you have a Lackey out when they SnT, you can do bunchs os stuff from SnT. Getting a SGC into play form SnT, then bouncing Grizzle your T2. Will they pay 7 life when you have lackey + SGC on board? It can even be a Chieftain or a Ringleader or Krenko. You'll do a bunch of dmg. And if they don't pay, you probably win, because they lost their dude and won nothing.
Sneak Attack scares me more. Thats why imo Needle/Revoker are a good option imo.
Thorn is also a great card against them. If you get it down T2, you bought yourself AT LEAST 1 turn, and that may be enough to win the game.

Hint: If you have lots of mana, you can cast uncounterable Revoker from Caverns =p

[BigBopper]

About beating SnT, I think we're one of the most well positioned decks to do that.


I think so too. You still have to think about the inconsistency of these decks. They need a fatty and either SnT or Sneak and in case of Sneak they usually need also SnT or some heavy mana acceleration. Yeah I faced a turn 2 SnT and there is not a whole lot you can do, but this deck sometimes just goes into play around turn 4 or 5. You've almost won by that time. Racing this deck is just the best idea. Pastboard they might have firesprout or something, but you might be able to win game one and then you have 2 post-board games.

Warren Weirding is not a good option since it runs at sorcery speed. So the best play is to drop lackey turn 1 and follow up with Vial T2 and let it stay @2 so you can at least pretend to have stinger in Hand. Other than that I think two stingers main are not bad vs. the rest of the meta as well (thinking of Goyf/delver (RUG), Knight/Ooze (Maverick), Angel Tokens (Miracle control)).

[SaberTooth]

I think so too. You still have to think about the inconsistency of these decks. They need a fatty and either SnT or Sneak and in case of Sneak they usually need also SnT or some heavy mana acceleration. Yeah I faced a turn 2 SnT and there is not a whole lot you can do, but this deck sometimes just goes into play around turn 4 or 5. You've almost won by that time. Racing this deck is just the best idea. Pastboard they might have firesprout or something, but you might be able to win game one and then you have 2 post-board games.

Warren Weirding is not a good option since it runs at sorcery speed. So the best play is to drop lackey turn 1 and follow up with Vial T2 and let it stay @2 so you can at least pretend to have stinger in Hand. Other than that I think two stingers main are not bad vs. the rest of the meta as well (thinking of Goyf/delver (RUG), Knight/Ooze (Maverick), Angel Tokens (Miracle control)).

i beated sneak and tell just with warren weirding, wastelands and rishadan ports, sometimes with stingscourger, so i think that weirding, also tutoreable, is good

[BigBopper]

Hey, got a question right here:
Assuming I got a vial @2 and stinger in hand and my opponents plays a targetable creature. Does the following work: At the beginning of my upkeep the "may put counter on vial" trigger goes on the stack and I activate Vial for stinger to bounce his creature and then put a counter on vial, while I don't have to pay echo for stinger and can attack when I have or play a hast lord?
This would let me use stinger as a body without paying echo and still let vial tick up.

[Julian23]

Yes this works. But you will have to pay Echo on your next turn.

[ScatmanX]

Both Vial and Stingscourger have a Triggered Abillitie, that triggers at the beggining of your upkeep. When the Upkeep starts, Vial's triggers goes to the stack, and you can respond that by tapping it and putting Stingscourger into play. Then the Vial trigger resolves, and you put another counter on it. How Stingscourger was not in play at the beggining of te upkeep, his trigger is only going to the stack on your next turn.

This kind of move leads you to a lot of optimized plays. For instance:
You have a Vial @3, and one @2, with only a Ringleader on your hand.
At your upkeep, both trigger, and you can let the Vial from 3 go to 4 counters. While the other is still on the stack, you may tap the one with 4 Counters to put Ringleader into play, looking the top4 and taking some goblins. Now you have more information to what you want to do with your second Vial. (ie. If you draw "only" Piledriver and MWM, you can leave at 2, or activete it for 2, then let the trigger resolve, going to 3).

This kind of effects are usefull when you have Sharpshooter into play. If you play Stingscourger + Shooter on the same turn, the next one your Sharpshooter you be able to kill a x/2 creature, because you can use it while Stingscourger trigger is on the stack.

[jrw1985]

A list based on my own experience:

Maverick - Even
Punishing Maverick - Bad
U/W Blade - Good
RUG - Bad
TES/ANT - Very bad
Rock - Even/Good
High Tide - Bad
Hive Mind - Bad/Very Bad
Team America/BUG - Good
U/W Miracle - Not sure yet...seems even/bad, but I haven't done much testing
Dredge - Very bad/Bad
Reanimator - Bad
Ravager Affinity - Good
Tezzeret Affinity - Very good
Merfolk - Very good
Show and Tell - Bad
MUD - Even
Painted Stone - Bad
Armageddon Stax - Bad

Note my scale here:
Very good - 70/30
Good - 60/40
Even - 50/50
Bad - 40/60
Very Bad - 30/70

I don't really worry about MUs being BAD moreso than I worry about my opponents being Good. Like, the only BAD MUs for me historically are Storm Combo, cuz, ya know, that's not our game. But anything trying to put permanents in play is never that terrible. And you need to have a sideboard ready for your meta. That's more important than any Face-value assessment of the MU pre-board anyway. Remember, there's only 1 game pre-board. There are 2 games postboard. Having the right board wins MUs.

[ScatmanX]

Jim Davis LIVE!
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/120617_indianapolis.html

Edit: His game 3 is a perfect example how Lackey is good even against Canadian, even if drawn on turn 4 or so, like it was.
And how Caverns is AWESOME!
Great game.

[jrw1985]

I played in a little 8-man tourney today. It was fine, but I wasn't playing Goblins. I was playing Reanimator. I beat High Tide but lost to Hypergenesis and Lands. I felt that Goblins would have served me much better in the rounds I lost, and would have been even in the High Tide match too. Just sayin'. Maybe it's just my familiarity with the deck, but I don't see Goblins being weak for as little as it is appearing in top 8s right now.

[Yuri8]

Here is list of Jim Davis from Invi, he ended up on 23rd place with record 6-2 in legacy.
Interesting is that he went with full wasteland/port/cavern package which seems good for metage full of RUG, Esper blade etc, on the other hand that opens him to opposite wastelands...This list really similar to what I played about year ago(it's even similar with my actual deck) and I must say that combination of warchief, skirk and mwms can do some scary things. What I'm missing is at least one Chieftain as he is never bad draw. Dunno what to think about cage, I'm currently playing Leylines and relics, but could cage replace Leyline? After all we just need to slow these decks and being recastable or just castable (if you draw it) could make some difference...


4 Aether Vial

4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan

4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

[fimo]

interesting that he finds worth splashing green only for TSH and no other card in the 75. It is probably a cavern of souls-driven choice. He plays 23 lands with Skirk Prospector and only one SGC.

[GoboLord]

Huge primer update done.
Took me 3 days (several hours) of work.
Hope you like it.
*exhaustion*:cry:

//Edit: I will specify exactly what has been updated some time later.

[BigBopper]

Here is list of Jim Davis from Invi, he ended up on 23rd place with record 6-2 in legacy.
Interesting is that he went with full wasteland/port/cavern package which seems good for metage full of RUG, Esper blade etc, on the other hand that opens him to opposite wastelands...

He used to play at least one Krosan Grip SB and now he got like 7 Blast Spells. I'd still prefer chalice but I dunno if spalshing Green for Taiga and Fetches serves better vs. RUG and stuff.
It was interesing to see that many Merfolk lists again. Seems like Tribes are back on the rise and it's a good MU for us:D
@Gobolord: Good job on updating the primer, really well done, thanks for that!

[Pee-Dee-2]

Hey,

today I went 4:1:1 in an 48-man-tournament, playing the list I posted and played last week.

1. round against Belcher: 1:2. I lost because in the third game, when he made EWT for ten, I could destroy all but 3 tokens while I was going down to one. I had 2 Goblins in play, 3 Lands in play and one in my hand. I drew Pyrokinesis. Each Goblincard would have had me won the game (had about 25 outs or something else).

2. round against Red Death: 2:0. Easy two games in which he gave me 4 lands with his Goblin Guide. (in the second game, I took 2 Mulligans, so his Guide was great for me!)

3. round against Staxx?! 2:0. I saw not that much, only cards like Crucible, City of Traitors, Golem etc. In the second game he started with Chalice 1, by a City of traitors and I did'nt saw my Cavern of Souls near my Lackey in hand :laugh:

4. round against Nicfit: 2:0. In both games I made preasure and removal. In the first game I twice bounced him an Explorer for the win.

5. round against Maverick: 2:1. Here I lost game one because I took three mulligans and kept without a land with Vial and Lackey (Tarfire and SGC). I didn't draw a land in four turns and conceded. Game two was very easy (he didn't know, what I was playing and 2 Pyrokinesis made the win). In the third game a cleared the board except of an ooze with an anarchy before he played: Circle of Protection: Red !!!:eek: WTF!!! After that he played 2 Mother of Runes, a Jitte and searched his library for a Batterskull. But twice ringleadering into good 4 and 2 SGC later, he was dead!!!

6. round against Dredge: ID. We made a draw because he is a good player (won the Vintagetornament at Bazaar of Moxen in Annecy this year) and I was very tired. The game, we played just for fun, I won 2:1.

So I went 4:1:1 and ended up 6th place. Maverick won the Tournament and Belcher was second!

[ScatmanX]

Today there was a really big tournament, and 3 people played my exact list that I made a report in the Tournament Forum. 7 rounds. The worst was 5-2. The other 2 went to top 8, and ended on 1st and 2nd. Unfortunately I played Solidarity =/
I think that list is pretty tight, and bearing 1 card md, and 3 sb, nothing to really complain.

@GobboLord. Thanks for the update. Will read when know what to read =]

@Jim Davis list: I saw him playing, and it was awesome, but lots of decisions don't really please me:
- I can't see Goblins playing with at least 1 Tarfire. It's just awesome to be able to tutor for burn sometimes.
- No Chieftain.
- Grafdigger's Cage. It is just bad. I'd like to see someone with a different opinion, backs with in real games scenarios. As of now, I don't see them.
- No Kiki-Jilki. It's just superb.
That apart, Prospector is awesome there, and I'd like to squeeze one in my builds, even without 3-4 Warmarchalls.

@Pee-Dee-2: Congrats there. That game 3 against Maverick must have been awesome.

*I played goblins yesterday too, and did fairly well, beating Maverick, Punishing Maverick, BUG Tempo, Nic Fit, and losing to Splinter Twin and Reanimator.
Against Nic Fit, I got to kill him in an awesome turn, where he had 13 creatures to block, and I got to attack with 20 dudes, dealing 21 dmg to him. That's how good Kiki is.
To lazy to write a complete report =p

[jrw1985]

Goblins in the Finals at SCG! Right Now!

[ScatmanX]

Goblins in the Finals at SCG! Right Now!
thanks.

[feline]

YES! Goblins wins the finals !!!!!!!! first time I think since before mental misstep!

[jrw1985]

Goblins Wins Indianapolis!

Well done Brad.

[Arsenal]

Goblins, wrecking house since 2004.

[(nameless one)]

Goblins, wrecking house since 2004.

I was watching the match, it felt like 2005 (Goblins vs. Canadian)

[SaberTooth]

Go go goblin rangers!!!

[L10]

Brad Campbell played brilliantly. I went to his profile and it says that he plays Goblins "(Stole Jim Davis's list)" lol. So I thought that he plays Jim Davis's previous list but without the Mental Missteps or Jim Davis's list with the Chieftain.

Nope. Exact 75 as Jim Davis's current list.

Brad lives in Indiana so I wonder how he got Jim Davis's latest list. People with high connections.

Interesting choices:
- Only 1 SGC? I normally like two so I can draw him in the late game rather than relying on Matron. He wins games.
- Grafdigger's Cage? Probably against Dredge and Reanimator. It also goes against GSZ and Persist. I don't know, I will look more into it.
- No anti-storm / combo sideboard. Meta choice, I suppose.

[GoboLord]

Yay, Goblins made it. Congrats on the finish. Can someone post the list here, please?

Besides, these are the update notes:

VI. Update notes

June 16th 2012
* NEW: “Acknowledgements”
* changed the design of “Table of Contents”
* NEW: “History” of Goblins
* NEW: “Strategy” of Goblins
* updated the section about “Mana”
* removed Piledriver from the “Core”
* rewrote ~85% of the explanations on the “Flex Slots”
* NEW: explanations about Dismember and Pyrokinesis in the MD
* NEW: explanation on Anarchy and Virtue’s Ruin in the “Sideboard” section
* Changed the design and contents of the “Others”-Sideboard cards (III.e)
* renamed “Untested and Bad Cards” into “Outside the Box” and updated the lists
* NEW: section for tournament reports
* NEW: section for update notes
* minor corrections in grammar and spelling

[1maarten1]

Yay, Goblins made it. Congrats on the finish. Can someone post the list here, please?

Maindeck:
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Basic Lands
4 Mountain

Lands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

[PedroFilipe92]

Goblins Wins Indianapolis!

Well done Brad.

Amazing!

[SaberTooth]

holding my breath until he atacked with the 3 buddies. I'm happy, is strange XD

[PedroFilipe92]

holding my breath until he atacked with the 3 buddies. I'm happy, is strange XD

Where can I see the finals?

[SaberTooth]

Where can I see the finals?

i don't know... maybe youtube o scg.com?

[jrw1985]

holding my breath until he atacked with the 3 buddies. I'm happy, is strange XD

I was doing the same thing! I knew he had to be thinking, 'If my opponent has a Bolt and I attack here, I lose.' But, the flipside was, if his opponent had a Bolt and Brad DIDN'T attack, Brad was probably going to lose anyway.'
There were, what, 2 Goyfs out that were both lethal, so if the Thresh player had a Bolt he would have cleared Brad's board the next turn with Bolt and Goyfs anyway. That would have left Brad with no gobbos and no hand facing down 2 lethal goyfs. Plopping his nuts on the table and turning everything sideways for the W in a close game was the only way to go.
That was also the most exciting finish to a SCG 5K I've ever seen.
Also, Brad played like a champ. I was really impressed. Against Elves when he Stingscourgered the Llanowar and opened himself up to cheat in Sharpshooter, that was awesome. Then when he Pyrokinesis'd the elf board away G2, I almost had to wipe a tear of joy away. Against Thresh he mulled like a champ. He did a great job Gempalming Insects on his opponent's upkeep to decrease Stifle's value. He played around Daze G2 or 3 when he cast his Vial T2. The Vial got forced and the force got REB'd and the REB got dazed, but I was still impressed that he went for the play around Daze route casting Vial T2 anyway. The only thing he did that I didn't like was he didn't crack fetches in response his opponent being tapped out enough. It seemed to me that there weren't going to be any Artifacts coming down on his opponent's side, so Brad wasn't going to need to fetch Taiga ever. Cracking the fetches when they couldn't be Stifled seemed like the better play. Whoops! Just saw that the Thresh list actually wasn't running Stifle! Nevermind then.

[Marshal]

yeah in before the attack you have to know the RUG player doesn't have the bolt, because after attacking with the 2 goyfs burning out he warchief leaves you dead in turn or 2, if you give him credit to know what he is doing

[DrHealex]

Brad Campbell played brilliantly. I went to his profile and it says that he plays Goblins "(Stole Jim Davis's list)" lol. So I thought that he plays Jim Davis's previous list but without the Mental Missteps or Jim Davis's list with the Chieftain.

Nope. Exact 75 as Jim Davis's current list.

Brad lives in Indiana so I wonder how he got Jim Davis's latest list. People with high connections.

Or, much more likely, he just stole it from the internet the previous day. Jim davis played in the invitational and did well (23rd), his list was up there saturday.

[L10]

Where can I see the finals?

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/321802068
6:23 - Brad Campbell vs. Dustin Taylor (RUG Delver) - Finals
5:48 - Brad Campbell vs. Chris Anderson (Elves) - Quarter Finals

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/321545154
5:20 - Jim Davis vs. Ali Aintrazi (RUG Delver) - Round 5/16


Or, much more likely, he just stole it from the internet the previous day. Jim davis played in the invitational and did well (23rd), his list was up there saturday.
Good point. I didn't know. I have not paid attention to MtG since Spring due to schooling (going for Masters), and my buddy just called my cell last night saying "Elton! GOBLINS AT FINALS!". Best call I had in months.

[Davran]

I was doing the same thing! I knew he had to be thinking, 'If my opponent has a Bolt and I attack here, I lose.' But, the flipside was, if his opponent had a Bolt and Brad DIDN'T attack, Brad was probably going to lose anyway.'
There were, what, 2 Goyfs out that were both lethal, so if the Thresh player had a Bolt he would have cleared Brad's board the next turn with Bolt and Goyfs anyway. That would have left Brad with no gobbos and no hand facing down 2 lethal goyfs. Plopping his nuts on the table and turning everything sideways for the W in a close game was the only way to go.


I feel like this is some good advice for the newer players out there - sometimes you just have to make them have it. If him having a bolt is the only reason the attack is bad, make him have the bolt.

This same line of thinking applies to the age old T1 Lackey vs. Vial debate. If you find yourself thinking that Lackey is awful if he is holding Swords but amazing otherwise, make him send the Lackey to the farm.

Don't get me wrong here though - often playing around some undesirable spell (i.e. Daze, Stifle) is absolutely the right play. Sometimes you just have to go for it.

On a related note - 0 Chieftains and 4x War Marshal is interesting to me. It seems like Chieftain would allow him to push more damage through, and allow all of those tokens to be a little scarier for his opponents.

Here's hoping that Brad is on the source and is willing to give us his thoughts about his list and the games he played. I'm especially curious whether or not Port was at all useful.

[ScatmanX]

Congrats to Brad.
I really did not agreed with some plays he made on the last game, but can't really blame him. The only thing that comes to mind is: He decided to play his Vial T2, to play around Daze. Then, he oppenede himself to Daze T2 casting ReB on FoW. I can't justify that line of play. Maybe someone can. (jwr thinks the same as me I guess. And man, he did know his opponent did not had Stifles)
One thing that he did really well, was deciding when to attack. Turning a Ringleader sideways, while at low life, and with your opponent with 2-3 dudes, is something hard to do. I need to see that again, and the other games I missed. Thanks for the links L10.

@GobboLord: Will read those parts later. Thanks!

Edit: Thinking about it, ReB could be a great play, because if opponent FoW'd again, great, and if he Dazed, like he did, that ment no Goy next turn. I don't understand though why h chose not to Port the opponent next turn then...

[Yuri8]

So goblins finaly made to top8 again. I'm not sure if I'm happy or sad. With this some players will consider deck threat and Plagues might show up. One top8 probably won't do it but if somebody would score again, I don't know...

Commentators brought up funny topic "goblins forever" - are you cursed by goblins too? I think this could be common amongst goblin players since deck doesn't change much and 'dat feelin' from playing ringleader into four goblins and win out of nowhere is priceless. As for myself, I played goblins back in extended (like 5 years ago) for some time, after they made rotate changes so I tried legacy, but lmy field was like White wennies, storm, something black with plagues, burn and dredge. After some lousy tournaments I sold them (worst decision of my life - almost every single card hit the lowest price ever). Tried some other decks (burn, dragonstompy) but never liked it. So like 2 years ago I bought whole deck again for like double price I sold it... :D

[orcanmail]

Sometimes you just have to go for it.

On a related note - 0 Chieftains and 4x War Marshal is interesting to me. It seems like Chieftain would allow him to push more damage through, and allow all of those tokens to be a little scarier for his opponents.
[/QUOTE]

This is why i shifted from warchiefs to chieftains for an aggro mono red list. Coupled with tarfires for extra reach, and thorns and COV to help race combo, I have found the aggro route more consistent.

Against dredge 2/2 zombies for example, you just sometimes need bigger Gobbos than 1/1 dudes plus piledrivers.

[Pee-Dee-2]

Great...I also sometimes didn't agreed with all plays he made, but at he won (in game three he didn't level the vial up a few turns without having a hand and having 3 lands. I didn't count, which spells he already played and how many spells he has left on 3, 4 or 5, but at that point each uncounterable Ringleader and SGC has been game!
(but maybe, he didn't has any left in his library)

The thing with the REB was good, I would have played it the same way. If the opponent don't have a Daze, you traded 2:2 and have a vial in play. If he have another Force or daze, you trade 4:3 in your favour or 3:3 and left your opponent being without a land, while you have two. At that point you also know, that your opponent has -2 Counterspells! Good for your spells in turn 3!

IMO, the opponent of Brad made a bad mistake, taking the Delver with the ponder. He was on six and knows, that every Ringleader, SGC etc. could have lost the game while having 2 Tarmogoyfs in play.
Of course you can say: "If Brad didn't would have drawn an Incinerator, the delver would have flipped and with Delver, two goyfs and a Bolt, Brad's opponent would have won". But the chance for Brad, drawing a SGC, Matron, Ringleader, Incinerator...was higher than not to draw on of them. But I think, that was a coinflip, wasn't it?

[feline]

I have been pushing 4 mogg war marshalls since I made my list a few months ago, I realized the only 4 of for the 2 slot converted mana cost was goblin piledriver, after that however, especially with more tokens/ 1/1 goblins, i still main deck 1 goblin chieftan, it's awesome when you have out a ring leader / warchief / mogg war marshal tokens / goblin matron, all those 1/1 - 2/2 goblins become 2/2 - 3/3.

[PedroFilipe92]

Griselbrand didn´t get banned... is that good for us?

[Davran]

Griselbrand didn´t get banned... is that good for us?

I don't think we really care either way. Reanimator and Sneak and Show are certainly welcome to go to low life totals trying to draw into the win, it just makes our job easier.

I think our game plan is the same as it always is - keep playing threats and chipping away at their life total. We're more than capable of racing a big fat demon.

What's potentially more interesting is the unbanning of Land Tax. It seems like Wizards completely forgot Maverick in their "top decks" analysis...but I'm not sure Land Tax is something G/W wants anyway...

[ScatmanX]

What's potentially more interesting is the unbanning of Land Tax. It seems like Wizards completely forgot Maverick in their "top decks" analysis...but I'm not sure Land Tax is something G/W wants anyway...
I'm skeptical tha Land Tax will do anything in Legacy. It doesen't do anything in decks that already exist, like Mav, that run 2-4 Basic Lands.
Let's wait and see what deck innovators have to offer us.

[movingtonewao]

i believe there will be a resurgence of Enchantress and Mono White Control in the near future as people try to break Land Tax. This benefits Enchantress quite a lot actually.

[Davran]

i believe there will be a resurgence of Enchantress and Mono White Control in the near future as people try to break Land Tax. This benefits Enchantress quite a lot actually.

This made me laugh. Not because I think you're wrong, but because a "resurgence of enchantress" conjures up a mental image of 2 guys playing it at the next tournament instead of just the one. I know it can be a pretty terrible match up for us, but to be honest I'm not all that worried about it achieving popularity on the level of Maverick or U/W.

I suspect we'll see some sort of brew that uses Land Tax to do something silly, but I think we're pretty well positioned against a deck that spends its time trying to stay behind on lands while not dying to our goblin horde.

[Holly]

On my last tournament (~50 Players) there were 7 ! Enchantress.. I dont want to see it rising in population here ;D.

[jrw1985]

On my last tournament (~50 Players) there were 7 ! Enchantress.. I dont want to see it rising in population here ;D.

That's awesome. Just board 2 or 3 Anarchy and win every match. It's a gift when your meta clearly defines your sideboard for you.

[movingtonewao]

This made me laugh. Not because I think you're wrong, but because a "resurgence of enchantress" conjures up a mental image of 2 guys playing it at the next tournament instead of just the one. I know it can be a pretty terrible match up for us, but to be honest I'm not all that worried about it achieving popularity on the level of Maverick or U/W.

I suspect we'll see some sort of brew that uses Land Tax to do something silly, but I think we're pretty well positioned against a deck that spends its time trying to stay behind on lands while not dying to our goblin horde.

why not? moat used to be hard to get, but now humility is a better choice with delvers around, so the deck is more accessible. plus, lots of people subscribe to the 'flavor of the month' thing, so who knows.

[Davran]

why not? moat used to be hard to get, but now humility is a better choice with delvers around, so the deck is more accessible. plus, lots of people subscribe to the 'flavor of the month' thing, so who knows.

Very true. It could easily become the next "hot" deck.

Humility is much better for us than Moat, so I'm hoping that if it does happen they go in that direction. All the more reason to grab a couple copies of Anarchy for our sideboards.

[woodjt5]

If you guys don’t mind, I’d like to get some advice on my mana base.

First of all to supply some context, I play 3 WInstigators main, as well as 3 Chieftains, so my red mana requirement is a little heavier than it would be with some other builds.

Currently I run 21 lands, which feels like the right number. At the SCG Invitational in Baltimore, before Cavern was printed, I ran 17 mountains and 4 wastelands (had to borrow 3 of them). Overall this felt fine, but I found myself misplaying with wasteland often in testing. It actually cost me a match against Maverick in round 6 of the invitational, which was the difference between 5-3 and 4-4—and a win would have put me into day 2. I have an itchy trigger finger with wastelands, and whenever I misplay with them, it always seems to be because I wasted something and then found myself short on land.

Now Cavern has been printed and I had to give back the 3 borrowed Wastes, leaving my current mana base as follows:

16 Mountains, 4 Caverns, 1 Waste.

So now I need to decide how many wastes and ports I want to run, and I want to make the decision before I trade some arms and legs for more than I need. I think this is what I want:

12 Mountains, 4 Caverns, 3 Wastes, 2 Ports

I think I need at least 16 colored sources, but I do want some of the mana denial as well. How many colored sources are necessary? The thought behind the 3-2 colorless split is that Ports are like Wastelands with training wheels. If I decided to tap something down in the wrong spot, it doesn’t cost me a land. It also lets me shift back and forth between mana denial and aggro, whereas with wasteland, once you waste, you can’t get it back. Besides a little testing on cockatrice, I have never actually played with Ports, so I would appreciate some insight on the card.

Also, I’m considering adding some Arid Mesas that are currently just sitting in my binder. I’m mono red, so colors aren’t an issue, but I thought the thinning might help. How many fetches do you really need before the thinning becomes relevant? I know this is somewhere in the depths of the thread, but admittedly I have not combed back through and looked. As far as the fetchland-Ringleader interaction…if you fetch before your first RL, you have thinned your deck and left yourself with some marginally better chance of hitting more goblins. If you fetch between your first and second RL, you remove a land but shuffle all the lands on the bottom back in. At that point, it seems like it could be either helping or hurting, depending on how the first RL turned out. Is this the correct analysis, or am I off base?

Any advice, insight, or constructive criticism is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[BigBopper]

If you guys don’t mind, I’d like to get some advice on my mana base.

First of all to supply some context, I play 3 WInstigators main, as well as 3 Chieftains, so my red mana requirement is a little heavier than it would be with some other builds.

Currently I run 21 lands, which feels like the right number. At the SCG Invitational in Baltimore, before Cavern was printed, I ran 17 mountains and 4 wastelands (had to borrow 3 of them). Overall this felt fine, but I found myself misplaying with wasteland often in testing. It actually cost me a match against Maverick in round 6 of the invitational, which was the difference between 5-3 and 4-4—and a win would have put me into day 2. I have an itchy trigger finger with wastelands, and whenever I misplay with them, it always seems to be because I wasted something and then found myself short on land.

Now Cavern has been printed and I had to give back the 3 borrowed Wastes, leaving my current mana base as follows:

16 Mountains, 4 Caverns, 1 Waste.

So now I need to decide how many wastes and ports I want to run, and I want to make the decision before I trade some arms and legs for more than I need. I think this is what I want:

12 Mountains, 4 Caverns, 3 Wastes, 2 Ports

I think I need at least 16 colored sources, but I do want some of the mana denial as well. How many colored sources are necessary? The thought behind the 3-2 colorless split is that Ports are like Wastelands with training wheels. If I decided to tap something down in the wrong spot, it doesn’t cost me a land. It also lets me shift back and forth between mana denial and aggro, whereas with wasteland, once you waste, you can’t get it back. Besides a little testing on cockatrice, I have never actually played with Ports, so I would appreciate some insight on the card.

Also, I’m considering adding some Arid Mesas that are currently just sitting in my binder. I’m mono red, so colors aren’t an issue, but I thought the thinning might help. How many fetches do you really need before the thinning becomes relevant? I know this is somewhere in the depths of the thread, but admittedly I have not combed back through and looked. As far as the fetchland-Ringleader interaction…if you fetch before your first RL, you have thinned your deck and left yourself with some marginally better chance of hitting more goblins. If you fetch between your first and second RL, you remove a land but shuffle all the lands on the bottom back in. At that point, it seems like it could be either helping or hurting, depending on how the first RL turned out. Is this the correct analysis, or am I off base?

Any advice, insight, or constructive criticism is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Manabase is hard to determine without the exact decklist. Generally you could argue that WI brings in some goblins so you play less lands. It's similar with Warchief, which lets you play bodies for less mana, you only need red mana then. So ports and wastes are free for mana denial of your opponent.
I would always run the playset of wastelands-they are that expensive because they are that good. 2 Ports is a good number-if I would run more, then I would cut goblins, not mountains. But they work great with Cavern too. I love to put a vial turn 1 and port your opponent from that on until you just burst goblins onto the table.

In terms of fetches almost every player in this threat would advise you not to run them in a mono red build. Other than that jrw1984 calculated the amount of fetches to improve ringleader (thanks again for that man) and he came down to 4. Which makes it similar to sylvan library (trading 4 life for another card). As long as you don't splash a color stay with mountains. Don't care about the stife you're going to catch for that the tempo loss is much more relevant than a trigger on one of your creatures.

So if you wanna stay at 21 lands, I would suggest 4 Wasteland, 2 Ports, 4 Cavern of Souls and 11 Mountain.

[Davran]

If you guys don’t mind, I’d like to get some advice on my mana base.

Wasteland*

* I am by no means an expert, but here's some thoughts

4x Wasteland is a critical part of our mana base for a couple reasons. First, a well timed Wasteland can and will win you games. Opponents sometimes keep sketchy hands that look great...if you have no disruption. If you can successfully keep them off of an important color, or below a critical mana count (I'll get to this in a second) you'll win a game you may otherwise have lost. Second, there are plenty of problematic spells and/or lands that Wasteland can be effective against. Take for example Wrath of God out of U/W Blade's sideboard. Wasteland can help you keep them off of WW and/or below 4 mana, keeping that Wrath safely in their hand. On the problematic lands side, Maze of Ith is the top contender in this spot, but there are plenty of others.

In terms of when to play a Wasteland, that really depends on a number of things. The most important of these is an analysis of the match up you're currently playing, and what you're afraid of. Let's say you're sitting down to game 2 vs. TES. You managed to pull out a game 1 win, and your opponent is on the play. He leads off with an Underground Sea, casts a Duress, and takes your combo hate card. It's now your turn. You have two options based on your current hand: Play a mountain and a Goblin Lackey, setting up for a Siege-gang Commander next turn off of the trigger, or use a Wasteland on his Underground Sea. Which is the better line of play? What are you afraid of here? If you cast the Lackey and he combos off using the Sea, you lose the game. If you use the Wasteland and he's holding a Gemstone Mine to combo off with, you lose the game. If you use the Wasteland and he needs to find a black source before going off, you may just stand a chance.

That said, I find that it is best to sandbag your wastelands for as long as possible. This forces your opponent to make decisions with fetch lands and other abilities that he may not otherwise make, leading to a blow out the following turn. Don't be afraid to lay them out if you have to, though.

Lastly, Wasteland tends to get less useful as the game goes on. There will come a point when your Wasteland is nothing more than a colorless mana, and that's perfectly fine. Don't feel like you have to use it simply because it's there.

Rishadan Port

Port is an interesting card for us because it can really bog down a game. It can be a pretty bad choice an aggressive build with lots of red mana requirements (like yours) simply because it cannot produce red mana. In a build with Warchief, however, it can open up some lines of play that may not have been possible before.

Port can be a pretty skill intensive card to use, but it's a lot like Wasteland. If you want them off of WW to prevent Wrath, then tap down that Tundra in their upkeep.

Cavern of Souls

I don't have any experience with these since I don't own any yet. If I did, I would likely run a playset without really thinking about it. There are quite a few match ups where it is very relevant.

Mountains

These should fill out the rest of your mana base. There really is nothing better for us.

Fetch Lands

I don't really see the point in running these in mono colored decks. First, the "deck thinning" argument is false. The statistics that prove this are out there somewhere, so I won't get into it. Second, it opens your mana base up to Stifle for no discernible reason, which is not a smart thing to do. Third, you're taking damage you don't otherwise need to take. Sure, it's only 1 or 2, but that can be relevant.

Land Count

The "norm" for goblins decks tends to be around 22. If you're running Ports I wouldn't go below that. If you're not, 20-21 is probably fine. It really depends on your curve. Your best bet is to play test at wherever you think is correct. If you're not seeing any issues, then you're probably fine.

**EDIT: Fixed some derp about Stifle.

[ScatmanX]

Wasteland*

* I am by no means an expert, but here's some thoughts
That was a great explanation if you ask me... maybe something could be used on the primer?
*the part about stifle being useless against s is quite wrong though, as people noticed below...

[akabidu]

fetch is an argument in monocolored decks.....but surely stifle isnt a dead card against goblins!!!!!!!!! lackey, ring, matron triggers.!

[ScatmanX]

fetch is an argument in monocolored decks.....but surely stifle isnt a dead card against goblins!!!!!!!!! lackey, ring, matron triggers.!
Yeah, but ultimately, fetches doesen't worth it. there were several discussions about it on the thread.
- 1 life matter. If you crack more, it matters more.
- The thining is near to irrelevant. I don't know the math, but seen it several times.
- Someone Stifling one of yo 2 or 3 lands on the game is way more problematic than having mana to actually cast a Ringleader, and having it's trigger stifled....
- Fetchlands may fuck up the bottom of your library after 1-2 ringleaders. Cracking a fetch may increase the chance of drawing a land next turn.
Those are the arguments I remember.

[Yuri8]

Fetch Lands

I don't really see the point in running these in mono colored decks. First, the "deck thinning" argument is false. The statistics that prove this are out there somewhere, so I won't get into it. Second, it opens you up to Stifle, which is a pretty dead card vs. us. Third, you're taking damage you don't otherwise need to take. Sure, it's only 1 or 2, but that can be relevant.


Stifle dead card versus us? Hmmm. How can you possibly win aganist RUG if not by some juicy ringleader? How can you kill delver pre-sb if not by gempalm (ok some of you plays tarfire), stifle is good aganist wasteland and almost every relevant card in our deck, not to mention you can always use it to something less relevant like piledriver, vial etc. so calling it dead card sounds little off to me...

[woodjt5]

Thank you for the insight. It look slike 4 Wasteland is a definite, and now I just need to decide if 2,1, or even 0 ports are what I want. I'll post my exact list when I get home...I don't have it on me at work.

[Davran]

@ Stifle being dead vs. us.

I misspoke here. Stifle can be quite relevant against us when it comes to our creatures. What I meant to say is that opening the mana base up to Stifle for no reason isn't always a smart thing to do. I've edited my previous post accordingly.

[akabidu]

At the beggining when I was building my deck I wanted only 2 ports, but friends avised me to put 4 because it was a game breaker. And I did put 4. I though it would break my mana more than it would help. It sometimes breaks your mana.....but goblins lose their force very quickly, and with ports you can control the game until you reach for a matron or a ring. If I were building a mono red I would put 4, minimum 3. But now I dont know, the Cavern seems to take the place of some of them.

[woodjt5]

Here's my list for reference when discussing my land question above (and just for the purpose of sharing)...I just typed it out at work instead of waiting:

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftan
3 Mogg War-Marshall
2 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Tarfire

X Krenko, Mob Boss (I think my build is especially well positioned to take advantage of him with 5 haste enablers, war-marshalls, and piledrivers. I want to cut Kiki-Jiki for one and possibly a second goblin for another.)

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
0-2 Rishadan Port
11-13 Mountains

Board:

4 Leyline of Sanctity (Combo)
2 Chalice of the Void (Combo, random other matchups)
3 Surgical Extraction (Dredge/Reanimater, Cephalid Breakfast, anything else that uses the GY- Considering switching them out for Tormod's Crypts, and also considering adding a 4th piece of GY hate)
1 Goblin Sharpshooter (Lingering souls, Elves, Affinity, Ensnaring bridge, Moat)
1 Skirk Prospector (Dredge and any time Sharpshooter comes in)
1 Pyrokinesis (Elves, Merfolk, Maverick, Affinity, other Aggro
1 Stingscourger (Grisledaddy, Emrakul)
2 Tuk-tuk Scrapper (Jitte, Batterskull, Ensnaring Bridge, Sword of George R.R. Martin)

Again, thanks for all suggestions/commentary/ideas/constructive criticisms

[Davran]

Board:

4 Leyline of Sanctity (Combo)
2 Chalice of the Void (Combo, random other matchups)
3 Surgical Extraction (Dredge/Reanimater, Cephalid Breakfast, anything else that uses the GY- Considering switching them out for Tormod's Crypts, and also considering adding a 4th piece of GY hate)
1 Goblin Sharpshooter (Lingering souls, Elves, Affinity, Ensnaring bridge, Moat)
1 Skirk Prospector (Dredge and any time Sharpshooter comes in)
1 Pyrokinesis (Elves, Merfolk, Maverick, Affinity, other Aggro
1 Stingscourger (Grisledaddy, Emrakul)
2 Tuk-tuk Scrapper (Jitte, Batterskull, Ensnaring Bridge, Sword of George R.R. Martin)

Again, thanks for all suggestions/commentary/ideas/constructive criticisms

Your main deck looks pretty typical. Given that you're playing Kiki-Jiki, you might want to consider maximizing the number of mountains on the off chance you want to straight up cast him.

As for your board - I've never really liked Surgical Extraction as the only form of grave hate. It's decent early if you can hit the first dredger before they can dredge into another, but in the mid to late game it's not really all that disruptive. You might consider Relic of Progenitus in this spot. I've really warmed up to it recently since it can be relevant in non-dredge matches (shrinks Knight of the Reliquary, neuters Scavenging Ooze etc.)

You might also consider replacing your third Stingscourger with a second Pyrokinesis. With 2 Stingers and 4 Matrons in the main deck, chances are you'll be able to Show and Tell one or the other into play when you need to, especially in games 2 and 3 when you know to keep one around.

Lastly, Leyline is an interesting choice of combo hate. My main problem with Leylines in general is that we have no hope of casting them beyond turn 0, so it often forces you to mulligan more aggressively than you otherwise might. Also remember that combo decks tend to have access to Chain of Vapor in order to bounce your Leyline before going off. In this situation, you're just making their life easier by starting their storm count at 1.

Chalice of the Void, on the other hand, is much harder for them to deal with. Similarly, Thorn of Amethyst is often useful against decks like Hive Mind where Leyline would be dead.

[woodjt5]

Thanks for the Suggestions Dav,

Because of the heavy red costs of Kiki-Jiki and WInstigator I don’t think any more than 2 Ports is optimal.

The last board spot actually rotates between the a tarfire, a lightning bolt, the 3rd stingscourger, and the 2nd pyrokinesis. It is in no way set in stone and I agree with your analysis there, especially in a Maverick-Heavy meta. The only problem is, even when I had the 2 pyros in the board, I found myself only boarding one in against Maverick. Maybe this spot could be an Anarchy instead.

As for Leyline of Sanctity, it has always felt a little underwhelming, but it is auto-win against burn and I am terrified of Storm combo. I agree that the chalices are better, but I wanted to diversify the hate, I only have 2, and I never know whether to set them on 0 or 1 for storm (probably because I have very little experience against the deck). I do enjoy the Chalice on 0 against hive mind. Chalice on 1 seems okay against RUG too, but I don’t think that’s what I want to be doing in that matchup. Do you think 4 Chalice/2 Thorn is a better split? I don’t even know if Thorns are expensive…I know what they do but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one anywhere except in Legacy sideboards.

I agree with you on surgical in that I think there are probably better options. This was originally 4 Leyline of the Void, but I had some surgicals in a standard sideboard and decided to try them out in legacy, and they worked well for me. I think I’m going to get some Crypts, as the 0 cmc is more appealing to me than the 1-card chomp ability and the extra card. This might be more of a strategy issue, but against dredge I always hit the bridges, not the first dredger. Maybe I’m doing it wrong?

[akabidu]

Here's my list for reference when discussing my land question above (and just for the purpose of sharing)...I just typed it out at work instead of waiting:

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftan
3 Mogg War-Marshall
2 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Stingscourger
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Tarfire

X Krenko, Mob Boss (I think my build is especially well positioned to take advantage of him with 5 haste enablers, war-marshalls, and piledrivers. I want to cut Kiki-Jiki for one and possibly a second goblin for another.)

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
0-2 Rishadan Port
11-13 Mountains

Board:

4 Leyline of Sanctity (Combo)
2 Chalice of the Void (Combo, random other matchups)
3 Surgical Extraction (Dredge/Reanimater, Cephalid Breakfast, anything else that uses the GY- Considering switching them out for Tormod's Crypts, and also considering adding a 4th piece of GY hate)
1 Goblin Sharpshooter (Lingering souls, Elves, Affinity, Ensnaring bridge, Moat)
1 Skirk Prospector (Dredge and any time Sharpshooter comes in)
1 Pyrokinesis (Elves, Merfolk, Maverick, Affinity, other Aggro
1 Stingscourger (Grisledaddy, Emrakul)
2 Tuk-tuk Scrapper (Jitte, Batterskull, Ensnaring Bridge, Sword of George R.R. Martin)

Again, thanks for all suggestions/commentary/ideas/constructive criticisms


I dont know how long you've been playing but dat list is quite....BAD, sorry bro. If you see all goblins list, you'll see their all a like, thats because their are certain goblin that cant stay off the deck. Exemple: Warchief, needs 4 in every deck. Instigator, 3 is to much, even if you run only mountains. 2 Pyrokinises, thats the minimum. White leyline is just BAD for the deck, i mean REALLY BAD. Kiki mirror...., It's way worse than SGC and if you put it, take 1 SGC out. I think Prospector and sharpshotter should be main.

I dont know if you have money to make a splah with other colors but it would be good. The monored is REALLY REALLY GOOD depending on the Metagame......but when you pick up bad matches, youre done. With the splash you can always over come the match.

Thats my considerations.

[Davran]

The last board spot actually rotates between the a tarfire, a lightning bolt, the 3rd stingscourger, and the 2nd pyrokinesis. It is in no way set in stone and I agree with your analysis there, especially in a Maverick-Heavy meta. The only problem is, even when I had the 2 pyros in the board, I found myself only boarding one in against Maverick. Maybe this spot could be an Anarchy instead.

Anarchy is often quite the blow out against Mav. It also gives you a misers option in random Enchantress match ups, but that's certainly not a reason to run it.


As for Leyline of Sanctity, it has always felt a little underwhelming, but it is auto-win against burn and I am terrified of Storm combo. I agree that the chalices are better, but I wanted to diversify the hate, I only have 2, and I never know whether to set them on 0 or 1 for storm (probably because I have very little experience against the deck). I do enjoy the Chalice on 0 against hive mind. Chalice on 1 seems okay against RUG too, but I don’t think that’s what I want to be doing in that matchup. Do you think 4 Chalice/2 Thorn is a better split? I don’t even know if Thorns are expensive…I know what they do but I don’t think I’ve ever seen one anywhere except in Legacy sideboards.

Chalice at 1 is also an auto win vs. burn. As for Chalice vs. Storm, it really depends. If you're fearing discard, setting it at 0 at least forces them to deal with it before going off. Setting it at 1 is really the sweet spot as it blocks many of their spells and removes Chain of Vapor as a potential out. Chalice at 0 does nothing against Hive Mind. In fact, you're actually helping them out! Hive Mind creates the copy regardless of whether or not the original spell resolves. That copy isn't cast, it's placed directly on the stack, sidestepping your Chalice. A much better card vs. Hive Mind is Thorn of Amethyst. Each of their pacts now costs 1, and all of their cantrips and fast mana are more expensive too. Even Force of Will is no longer free.

As for the cost money wise, last I knew Thorn of Amethyst was something like $1. They're a pretty niche card.

Personally, I run either 4x Chalice or 2x Chalice/2x Thorn as my combo hate if I expect to see Hive Mind (I have a buddy that runs it occasionally in our local meta).


I agree with you on surgical in that I think there are probably better options. This was originally 4 Leyline of the Void, but I had some surgicals in a standard sideboard and decided to try them out in legacy, and they worked well for me. I think I’m going to get some Crypts, as the 0 cmc is more appealing to me than the 1-card chomp ability and the extra card. This might be more of a strategy issue, but against dredge I always hit the bridges, not the first dredger. Maybe I’m doing it wrong?

You shouldn't need to hit Bridge as a goblins player. Remember that you can always remove your own goblin with a Gempalm and/or block an Ichorid/Zombie to remove the Bridges. Also, any unpaid echo triggers (War Marshal/Stinger) will remove his bridges, as will sacrificing guys to Skirk Prospector. You'll want to hit things like Ichorid, Dread Return, and whatever target(s) he brings in (probably Iona and/or Elesh Norn). If you find yourself with early extractions, hitting the first dredger on their upkeep can buy you a turn.

Crypt is fine hate vs. dredge as long as you know when to use it. The dredge player will side in Ancient Grudge vs. goblins most often and try to force you into popping it on his terms. So just be aware of that.

[woodjt5]

I dont know how long you've been playing but dat list is quite....BAD, sorry bro. If you see all goblins list, you'll see their all a like, thats because their are certain goblin that cant stay off the deck. Exemple: Warchief, needs 4 in every deck. Instigator, 3 is to much, even if you run only mountains. 2 Pyrokinises, thats the minimum. White leyline is just BAD for the deck, i mean REALLY BAD. Kiki mirror...., It's way worse than SGC and if you put it, take 1 SGC out. I think Prospector and sharpshotter should be main.

I dont know if you have money to make a splah with other colors but it would be good. The monored is REALLY REALLY GOOD depending on the Metagame......but when you pick up bad matches, youre done. With the splash you can always over come the match.

Thats my considerations.

So you've never heard of the WInstigator/Chieftan builds (or grammar, apparently)? Both were quite popular in the past (about 10-15 pages back), and can still be put to good use today.

[woodjt5]

Thanks again, Dav.

[akabidu]

Ok man, whatever. Yes ive seen these decks already. There the most aggresive gobbos deck around. If youre going for dat.....I wouldnt put any ports. Ow well.....maybe one. Maybe some fanatics(good meta)(just lovem') and another chieftain. Leyline white still real bad.

[akabidu]

I think the old fashioned deck is better....now with cavern, it got really pumped up. mean while....ill be preparing anarchy for the resiliant decks with land tax.

[woodjt5]

Thinking better....minimum 2 ports..... but play more mountains.

I agree that the white Leylines are terrible.

[Yuri8]

Ok man, whatever. Yes ive seen these decks already. There the most aggresive gobbos deck around. If youre going for dat.....I wouldnt put any ports. Ow well.....maybe one. Maybe some fanatics(good meta)(just lovem') and another chieftain. Leyline white still real bad.

Well you never know unless you try it. Myself playing aggressive list and ports are fine as long as you don't try to combine them with WInstigator...I can't say I like his list but it might work well, and if not he simly he will rebuild it after some games. After all best kind of gaining experience is by playing.

[akabidu]

Ive been trying to play with the calices....but....i really dont know if there that good. Storm is a REAL BIG PROBLEM.....any body tried the P. PILLAR? How is it ?!

[akabidu]

Well you never know unless you try it. Myself playing aggressive list and ports are fine as long as you don't try to combine them with WInstigator...I can't say I like his list but it might work well, and if not he simly he will rebuild it after some games. After all best kind of gaining experience is by playing.

thats my doubt,.....the statistics of you opening only 1 red mana source in the first 3 turns. Seems a big deal

[Davran]

Ive been trying to play with the calices....but....i really dont know if there that good. Storm is a REAL BIG PROBLEM.....any body tried the P. PILLAR? How is it ?!

I'm going to assume you meant Chalices, and that you're asking about Pyrostatic Pillar. It's mostly an "old school" piece of hate that's quite vulnerable to Chain of Vapor and also makes them need less storm count to actually kill us since the majority of our spells cost less than 3. If I'm going to spend 2 mana on hate, Chalice @ 1 or Thorn of Amethyst are slightly harder to deal with for them, and much less disruptive for us.

[akabidu]

seems legit. Ill just consider Storm a bad match and focus my side on other bad matches.

[woodjt5]

akibidu actually brings up a good point that goes to the heart of my original inquiry. If I'm running a list with heavy red requirements (which, for better or worse, I am), how many colorless lands can I afford to play? 4 Wastes + 2 Ports, with 15 Red sources...is that enough to reliably hit RR by turn 2?

Another thing to consider is that WInstigator is often vialed in at the end of your opponents turn to catch them off guard, which negates the double red.

I realize that Warchiefs and WInstigators are a big non-bo, but both have been very good for me. Sure, Warchief doesn't reduce the castign cost of WI, but he still gives him haste. WInstigator is the single most terrifying card for an opposing player to see on your side of table (OK...maybe Kiki-jiki). It is a removal magnet and a possible game ender, and definitely a personal favorite of mine. Putting aside the validity/correctness of the card, the question is how much mana denial can I run and still be able to relaibly cast it?

[akabidu]

Ive already played with this deck list.....for you to not think I was arrogant. I had 4 WInstigators at one time. it and lackey were the reason y I went for goblins (Instigator are cheap =] ), but the Instigators were the same reason I stoped playing with these type of deck.... It didnt win as much as it loses....thats why I think more than 2 or 1 is just taking slots of mogg war marshals....or maybe fanatics.


I think you would play with much more confidence knowing dat youre not gonna draw a port or starting with no red mana source ( even with vials help ).

[Yuri8]

thats my doubt,.....the statistics of you opening only 1 red mana source in the first 3 turns. Seems a big deal

Well statistics may say so but important is that it works. I play exactly same maindeck (4 waste 3 port 8 fetch 2 taiga and 5 mountain) for about half year and deck and my record just won't allow me to change it. What I'm trying to say here is that sometimes it doesn't have to look good on paper to work well in real.

[akabidu]

Well statistics may say so but important is that it works. I play exactly same maindeck (4 waste 3 port 8 fetch 2 taiga and 5 mountain) for about half year and deck and my record just won't allow me to change it. What I'm trying to say here is that sometimes it doesn't have to look good on paper to work well in real.


Yep, training is surely the best way.

[akabidu]

GOBBOS PEOPLE, WHATS YOUR OPINION OF ' CHAOS WARP ' SIDEBOARD? IVE BEEN PLAYING IT.....SEEMS OK. SOMEONE WITH SOME EXPERIENCE?! NEED ADVICE!!!! :cry:

[fimo]

GOBBOS PEOPLE, WHATS YOUR OPINION OF ' CHAOS WARP ' SIDEBOARD? IVE BEEN PLAYING IT.....SEEMS OK. SOMEONE WITH SOME EXPERIENCE?! NEED ADVICE!!!! :cry:

Actually I was just thinking about it since I expect that people will start play land tax. I dont know whether land tax will be a good card but I m sure that it will see a lot of play (especially in the first period) because people wanna try it out and yes it is a fun card. As a consequence, I guess we will see more enchantments around: land tax probably will fit good in decks with moat/humilty/seismic assault. So I think we have to get ready for it.
- splashing green. Cavern of souls makes it tricky. I think it is completely fine to splash colors for cards with legs (TSH) since cavern of souls can be 4 extra dual lands. However, would you reliably have access to taiga for nature's claim if you play cavern of souls, wastelands and ports? My mana base is 4 caverns, 7 mana denial and 12 mountains. Giving that I want to keep 4 mountains, I would have only 8 sloths for fetches/taigas. I might be wrong but I think it is too little. what do you guys think?
- anarchy. It is a great card in so many ways but again with cavern of souls and 7 mana denial, can I reliably have access to 2 mountains by turn 4/5?
- chaos wharp. I dont own any so I have never tested them but I m considering buying them. they have such a bad drawback but you can always reliably cast them and they work at instant speed. They can also be boarded in as equipment hate (?) thereby solving with one card the most problematic permanents for goblins: equipments and enchantments.

Thoughts/experiences on this matter? IF the landscape land tax-moat/humilty/seismic assault was going to happen how would you adjust to it in the sideboard considerimg my mana base?

[orcanmail]

if Moat and humility became commonplace then I'd have to splash green for Krosan Grips.
I'd have to replace mountains for taigas and Fetchlands.

my mana base would look something like this, 22-24 land, depending on my exact list.

4 taiga
6-7 fetchlands
4 wastelands
4 ports / caverns
4-5 mountains

[PedroFilipe92]

I´ve been playing with Mogg War Marshall in WI´s slots, and i´m very happy with them!

My new list:

// Lands
12 [ON] Mountain (1)
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
1 [WWK] Tuktuk Scrapper

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [LRW] Tarfire
2 [AT] Pyrokinesis

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 1 [WWK] Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 3 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy


My doubts are if I should run Tuktuk mainboard, and/or add 1 more mountain.
The sb seems consistent to me, prepared to face Sneak Show/Hypergenis, Maverick and Blade Control.

Dont´s tested yet against Miracle Control, but it seems like a bad matchup. Don´t know if i can handle with the Angels...

[Garedhi]

Hi everybody, i am a very old ITALIAN goblin player, and since cavern was announced i started testing all the possibilities! In my meta there are not so many combo ( SnT Reanimator and so on ) and lot's of canadian, maverik and miracle countertop control...
If there was a lot of combo weirding is the only way to survive, but the black mana is hard to fetch and to keep ( wasteland and so on ).
I decided to splash it only with green for TnH ( cavern made it easier to cast ) Krosan Grip, and choke and put altready in 2 tarfire, a really good removal that you can easily tutor with matron and reveal with ringleader.
For the mana base i decided to play 2 taiga and 3 ports

The list is this one


4 Mountain
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Taiga
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls

4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Tarfire
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron

1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector

4 AEther Vial

SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Anarchy
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Stingscourger
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 2 Pithing Needle


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/440/vvfavfa.png/

[akabidu]

I own 3 Chaos Warp, and I can say its very multifunctional, It almost always gets sided when your agaist equipements and encantments or even big creatures. Its a tricky card...but its very powerful to!

[woodjt5]

I own 3 Chaos Warp, and I can say its very multifunctional, It almost always gets sided when your agaist equipements and encantments or even big creatures. Its a tricky card...but its very powerful to!

But it is not tutorable with Matron and it is a whiff when you play a ringleader. Against equipment or other arttifacts you'd rather have tuk-tuk or TSH. If enchantments become prevalent, Chaos Warp may warrant a SB spot as mono-red's only avalable answer, but currently I feel that those spots are better used in other ways.

[akabidu]

But it is not tutorable with Matron and it is a whiff when you play a ringleader. Against equipment or other arttifacts you'd rather have tuk-tuk or TSH. If enchantments become prevalent, Chaos Warp may warrant a SB spot as mono-red's only avalable answer, but currently I feel that those spots are better used in other ways.

But what about the RB ? no way out.

[RaZe]

My SBif Moat/Humulity is in the Rise In a mono-R shell.

4 W.Instigator
4 Siege-Gang Commander (I dont run any main)

-4 Ringleaders
-1 Sharpshooter
-3 MWM

Why dilute the deck with cards that have no synergy with ours when you can just transform our decks into a combo-esque build.

[woodjt5]

My SBif Moat/Humulity is in the Rise In a mono-R shell.

4 W.Instigator
4 Siege-Gang Commander (I dont run any main)

-4 Ringleaders
-1 Sharpshooter
-3 MWM

Why dilute the deck with cards that have no synergy with ours when you can just transform our decks into a combo-esque build.

Skirk Prospector + Sharpshooter gets around a moat nicely. Not so much a humility, though.

[akabidu]

Skirk Prospector + Sharpshooter gets around a moat nicely. Not so much a humility, though.


cant count in my hands how many times I won from Encantress with Skirk+Sharp.

[RaZe]

Skirk Prospector + Sharpshooter gets around a moat nicely. Not so much a humility, though.

Thats the direction Im talking about. They generally are slow deck and the enchantments are costly. So I would rather just try to win faster with support from Wastelant and Port. And its another option to combat combo az well.

[Vandalize]

Or you can just put lots of Goblins into play, cast Anarchy and win.

SEEMS PRETTY HARD.

[RaZe]

Or you can just put lots of Goblins into play, cast Anarchy and win.

SEEMS PRETTY HARD.

Some of this decks tend to have counterspells. and of you're locked already then rest assured they will stop that spell.

[Yuri8]

Another tournament for me(only 21 this time), played exactly same decklist as always (post #2537).

1. Mono black
First game with my buddy, I konw he plays deck first time and that it’s not complete. I dont remenber this matchup very well other than that in second one double chieftain and port on mishra got me there. W
1-0

2. Junk
He thoughtseizes away my vial but wasteland on bayou hit him hard. He killed some my guys but it wasn’t enough. W
Kept hand with lackey and relic which forced tarmogoyf to chumpblock my lackey. Then hymn and plague wrecked everything both in my hand and on table. L
In third he did not pulse my two vial and instead kills chieftan, next turn ringleader into goblin apocalypse explained him that he made mistake. W
2-0

3. Mono green eldrazi-post
I start with lackey and quickly overpower him, while porting him. W
In second one pithig needle shut my mana denial plan and early titan got him enough mana turn before death. L
Triple lackey hand,didn’t know if I should keep it. He had 2 wall of roots, third lackey got always in making my army bigger.Two turns later he scoops. W
3-0

4. Zoo
Wasteland + fanatic got rid of first turn nacatl and then one port kept him of white source. W
I kept slow hand and Huntmaste, Kotor, Skinshifter and Tarmogoyf easily kill me. L
In third vial and relic, then pyrokinesis on 2 hiearchs and Nacatl. I eventually build good board position but still on only two lands. I tapped out for attack and mogg war marshall while him having Skinshifter and goyf. Helix at end of turn down to 3 and he attacks and I obviously double block. Him „trample“, me „huh, omg“ should read that card. L
3-1

5. Reanimator - ID
3-1-1

Top8: Reanimator
Keep good hand with lackey and wasteland. Lackey hit three times putting into play Matron->SGC and another matron, he fails to find Elesh or entomb. W
Second game was similar expect for Leyline on my side. He eventually finds Show ant tell but by that time I have enough goblins for gempalm. W
4-1-1

Top4: UW miracle
He ran out of cards very quickly while I refuel with ringleaders and after desperate entreat I drop siege gang and force him to chumpblock those ringleaders. Next turn he scooped.
He starts with top, me with vial but got forced and then counterbalance. Next turn I played fanatic, he taps top in response, REB on balance in response and another vial, everything resolved. He had some miracles but I eventually drop him to 6 and then vial in SGC with 6 lands…W
5-1-1

Split final with my buddy (RUG delver). Tin street hooligan wasn't needed all the day so swapping him for krenko should be right move, but really dont know if he would help in any situation this day...

[RaZe]

Goblins scenario.

Was playing MWS earlier and opponent scooped with the current board state. I was wondering how you would play out the rest of my turn in the situation.

My list* for reference:

11 Snow-Covered Mountain
04 Wasteland
02 Rishadan Port
04 Cavern of Souls

04 Aether Vial
04 Goblin Lackey
04 Goblin Matron
04 Goblin Warchief
04 Goblin Ringleader

04 Mogg War Marshal
04 Goblin Chieftain

03 Goblin Piledriver
03 Gempalm Incinerator

02 Stingscourger
02 Tarfire
01 Skirk Prospector

* Didn't Sideboard any cards

Opponent RUG Delver

Hand 5 Cards
Graveyard 2 Cards

Tropical Island
Ponder

Board [All Untapped]

Tropical Island
Wasteland
Scalding Tarn
Delver of Secrets [Unflipped]
Nimble Mongoose


Odd card that he plays is Dead/Gone In place of Forked Bolt I assume.

My Hand

Goblin Matron
Goblin Matron
Snow-Covered Mountain

My board

Snow-Covered Mountain
Snow-Covered Mountain
Aether Vial @ 3
Aether Vial @ 2
Mogg War Marshal
Goblin Token
Goblin Piledriver


Me at 19, opponent @ 13. End of his turn I tap Vial@3, resolves and put Mama into play. Trigger resolves...what do you do? I'm interested to see the different lines of play everyone will decide. If it matters it's G3 post board.

[Arsenal]

No Ringleaders? Idk if we can be friends anymore....

[RaZe]

No Ringleaders? Idk if we can be friends anymore....

Lol, forgot them from the list. Gonna edit...

[liamb]

Just played GP Ghent Trial (19 peeps) with the following list:

5 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port

4 AEther Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Skirk Prospector

1 Pyrokinesis
1 Tarfire

SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 1 Stingscourger
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage


Justifications for the deck choices. Well actually it’s very similar to my list I played in my first competitive tournaments. I just wanted to remove the dust from this old idea after good result of Jim Davis’ list on SCG open. Compering to the Jim’s main deck I wanted to be prepared more against Maverick so I added two singles: Pyro and Tarfire. The aim of sideboard is to beat reanimator and sneak&show but also burn which is very popular here. Pyro’s and Tin are against Mav.

R1. Sneak and Show
G1 – my opponent mulligans to 5 and I have quick opening and won soon after. At that point I had no idea what deck we was playing
G2 – again quick start on my side. He show and told putting Emy but it was too late for him.
2-0 (1-0)

R2. Reanimator (with R splash for looting)
G1 – he won (as I suspected) I knew my opponent and his deck choice.
G2 – I brought my heavy artillery and my opening hand was Wasteland, Vial, Grafdigger's Cage, Relic of Progenitus and some goblins (Prospector) so I decided the risky keep. Cage resolves, Vial resolves, Relic Resolves and I drew some lands. It was enough for the win.
G3 – My opening 7 contained 2 Cage’s and Cavern of Souls so I kept. I drew into some stingscourgers and matrons and won it.
2-1 (2-0)

R3. Reanimator (with R splash for looting)
G1 – again I knew my opponent so predicted loss. He brought Iona and Elesh. Sheesh -talking about killing the fly with the canon.
G2 – I had cavern and really good opening but saw no hate. Stingsourgers and Matrons worked hard. I bounced his fatties 3 times. I stabilized with his life at low level and one card on his hand – it was elesh. And the he luckily drew Show and Tell. No REB for me… I lost.
0-2 (2-1)

R4. Bant
G1 – I played with my friend and team-mate so I was not happy about that . Nevertheless I knew I would won because it is good match for me. He managed to win one game but my goblin hordes are too much for his bant guys. Wasteland and Port really shines in this matchup.
2-1 (3-1)

R5. RUG Delver
At that point we knew that ID guarantied me and my opponent (and mate) 2nd and 1st place and top 8.
ID (3-1-1)

TOP8. BW stoneforge
He managed to won 2nd close game after resolved Plague (say what?!). 3rd game I finished him of with the Tarfire.

TOP4. Punishing Mav
Yeah that were to most epic games I played. Both were very close but I won those. Games like these made me realize that MWM and Tin Streets are the house. Funny thing is that I won 2nd game by killing him with tarfire. With this card, I had the most doubts when I constructed my 75. This my friends is goblin gem.

Yuri8 I think I can quote you on that:


Split final with my buddy (RUG delver).

Haha – same here - my buddy from R5 is also in the final so he conceded (becasue he already had bye's) and I’m getting 3 bye’s at Ghent GP.

[GoboLord]

And another one:
I attended a small tourney yesterday (10 players).

Round 1: Toby (my buddy) with ANT (2-0) (however we always draw when we get paired, so the official result was 1-1)
Round 2: Christian with Aggro Loam (2-0)
Round 3: Sebastian with Affinity (2-1)
Round 4: Nico with RU Delver (2-0)

Chalice was my friend that day.

[GoboLord]

Some of this decks tend to have counterspells. and of you're locked already then rest assured they will stop that spell.

Still Anarchy is the best answer we have in MonoR builds. It's not like they have eternal access to countermagic - usually staying alive until they resolve a Moat and/or Humility devours many resources (like counterspells).

[Humphrey]

Still Anarchy is the best answer we have in MonoR builds. It's not like they have eternal access to countermagic - usually staying alive until they resolve a Moat and/or Humility devours many resources (like counterspells).

But with the printing and use of caverns, the counter will rot in their hand until we cast non creature spells.

[Pee-Dee-2]

@Raze: I think in your situation it doesn't matter what to take. If he would have had a counter, he would counter your choice. If he would have had removal, the Piledriver would have been died. So you could have taken Piledriver/Warchief

-> Piledriver to win next turn by putting it into play eot, than Vial Matron into Warchief and vial it in for the win.

-> Warchief to attack this turn by playing it with your 3rd land and attack. He have had to block the Piledriver with the Mungose and have lost the the next turn (Matron into Ringleader)

But the best one in this case would have been Chieftain ;)

@liamb: congratulations!

[GoboLord]

But with the printing and use of caverns, the counter will rot in their hand until we cast non creature spells.

The fact that we run Cavern of Souls somewhere in our deck does not mean that they will NEVER be able to use countermagic for Goblins. So, "rotting in hand" is not true.
Besides you can work for that if you want: You can cast Goblins the draw their counters if you want to resolve Anarchy.

[akabidu]

I run a RB goblin deck, how many Caverns should I use ?! ( I only spend the mana for red creatures.)

[Lejay]

8

[akabidu]

8

seems legit

[L10]

Since I am not a fan of Warren Weirding, I have been using 4 Cavern of Souls and 4 Auntie's Hovel for 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie and 1 Boggart Mob in the MD, and 2 Earwig Squads in the SB. I am using Auntie's Hovel due to budget and will be replacing Boggart Mob with Krenko. If you are using Warren Wierding, you could use 2 Cavern of Souls, 4 Fetch Lands, and 4 Badlands like Nick Patnode.

[woodjt5]

Since I am not a fan of Warren Weirding, I have been using 4 Cavern of Souls and 4 Auntie's Hovel for 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie and 1 Boggart Mob in the MD, and 2 Earwig Squads in the SB. I am using Auntie's Hovel due to budget and will be replacing Boggart Mob with Krenko. If you are using Warren Wierding, you could use 2 Cavern of Souls, 4 Fetch Lands, and 4 Badlands like Nick Patnode.

Also, if you don't want the black mana...stingscourger does a lot of what wierding does, just without the added utility of making goblins and without the ability to kill untargetable creatures.

[akabidu]

Mana Base:

x6 fetch
x2 badlands
x2 caverns
x4 wastelands
x4 ports
x5 mountains

* using only x1 weirding(MD), x3 perish(SB) for the black.

I dont know if its gonna work against RUG and MAV because of the wastelands (only 2 duals), I really need that perish to resolve in these matches. Maybe x3 badlands, for security? And x4 mountains?

seems ok, and Ive been seing lists with splashes(G) that only use hooligans and no Grosan Grip, so it seems about right....

[Pee-Dee-2]

Why doing a black splash? I played it also a long time this way until I understood, that mono can do it as well.

Anyway. Today I looked through my binder and saw a mirror entity. The last time, I tested it is years ago. Maybe with Krenko, Prospector and MWM he will do well these days. Has anyone tested it in a post M13 built? With CoS we can cast him without splashing white.

[akabidu]

Why doing a black splash? I played it also a long time this way until I understood, that mono can do it as well.

Anyway. Today I looked through my binder and saw a mirror entity. The last time, I tested it is years ago. Maybe with Krenko, Prospector and MWM he will do well these days. Has anyone tested it in a post M13 built? With CoS we can cast him without splashing white.


I splash because of Perish. Its really good, breaks the tier 1 decks, really good.
Maybe all just use x1 Badland for the perishes in the side. What do yall think ?! Ill try to go mono red, I also prefer it.

[ScatmanX]

Anyway. Today I looked through my binder and saw a mirror entity. The last time, I tested it is years ago. Maybe with Krenko, Prospector and MWM he will do well these days. Has anyone tested it in a post M13 built? With CoS we can cast him without splashing white.
I was going to try this myself.
Share if you do to.

[L10]

I splash because of Perish. Its really good, breaks the tier 1 decks, really good.
Maybe all just use x1 Badland for the perishes in the side. What do yall think ?! Ill try to go mono red, I also prefer it.
Your land setup looks pretty good to me. Maybe remove one Mountain for another fetch land. Jim Davis's build can get away with using one Taiga he has four Cavern of Souls to banks on for the green mana. If someone uses Wasteland on your only Badlands and you sided in Perish, those Perish are now dead cards. So I'd have at least two Badlands in the deck just in case.

[akabidu]

Your land setup looks pretty good to me. Maybe remove one Mountain for another fetch land. Jim Davis's build can get away with using one Taiga he has four Cavern of Souls to banks on for the green mana. If someone uses Wasteland on your only Badlands and you sided in Perish, those Perish are now dead cards. So I'd have at least two Badlands in the deck just in case.

Yeah, two seems right, but I changed my list. Im running only x2 perish on SB (for black source), I took weirding out, its ok....but I dont think its dat necessary. I tested the deck on casual today, seems ok. running now x7 fetch x1 badlands, hope it gets more agressive.

[L10]

To be honest, if you are only splashing black for two Badlands in the SB, you may as well make it mono-red. At least have three Perish so you have the chance of drawing them mid-game.

I am planning to go to a local tournament next week, after a six month hiatus. The problem is, I don't know the current meta well enough. But this is the deck that I had been playing with my friends, and is doing pretty decent. So here is my list:

// Lands [22]:
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Auntie's Hovel

// Core [22]:
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

// Others [16]:
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Boggart Mob [Krenko, Mob Boss]
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector

// Sideboard
2 Stingscourger
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Earwig Squad
3 Pyroblast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Nihil Spellbomb (Or Grafdigger's Cage?)

Boggart Mob is a decent card, but it's mainly for fun. I love when I champion cards like Goblin Matron or Goblin Ringleader because it gives my opponent less incentive to block or destroy him. A 5/5 body is no laughing matter, either. And if I go all in with my attacks and do some damage, I will not be open the next turn because I will have goblin rogue tokens open to block. Mad Auntie is another black goblin that I may consider putting in once Krenko comes out, but do not know who to replace her with. I would have Badlands over Auntie's Hovel, but I am on a budget. The dual lands and fetch lands are not worth it, especially since I am a graduate student and do not have much disposable income anyways.

[akabidu]

perish? MAV n RUG are tuf matches, and maybe some random elves and bant.

[akabidu]

To be honest, if you are only splashing black for two Badlands in the SB, you may as well make it mono-red. At least have three Perish so you have the chance of drawing them mid-game.

I am planning to go to a local tournament next week, after a six month hiatus. The problem is, I don't know the current meta well enough. But this is the deck that I had been playing with my friends, and is doing pretty decent. So here is my list:

// Lands [22]:
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Auntie's Hovel

// Core [22]:
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

// Others [16]:
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Boggart Mob [Krenko, Mob Boss]
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector

// Sideboard
2 Stingscourger
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Earwig Squad
3 Pyroblast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Nihil Spellbomb (Or Grafdigger's Cage?)

Boggart Mob is a decent card, but it's mainly for fun. I love when I champion cards like Goblin Matron or Goblin Ringleader because it gives my opponent less incentive to block or destroy him. A 5/5 body is no laughing matter, either. And if I go all in with my attacks and do some damage, I will not be open the next turn because I will have goblin rogue tokens open to block. Mad Auntie is another black goblin that I may consider putting in once Krenko comes out, but do not know who to replace her with. I would have Badlands over Auntie's Hovel, but I am on a budget. The dual lands and fetch lands are not worth it, especially since I am a graduate student and do not have much disposable income anyways.


spellbomb is an option......relic of progenitus is realy good. but be certain of 4-6 slots for grave hate.

[akabidu]

x1 Badland doesnt seem that bad for x2 Perish in SB, plus im running x2 anarchys, seems reasanable. White Weenies (death n taxes) keep making first place around here, that and the unbanning of land tax seem really good run anarchy in deck.

[Pee-Dee-2]

@Scatman: Yes I will do, but on sunday, I will start my holiday trip and will come back at the end of July :cool:
I think he could work.

@Splash: IMO the problem with the splash is, you must have fetchies and nonbasics which makes opponent's wastes better.
A splash only to take Perish in could be a way, but against Maverick, Anarchy is doing the same (without killing Ooze, but killing Mothers) and against RUG Tempo, we can take CotV. So each black card could be replaced by a red or colourless card.

But these are only my two cents and I can aunderstand everything. I played a splash for years ;)

[woodjt5]

Okay, so merfolk got a new toy: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132735

Mark Rosewater has already confirmed that there is a new lord cycle in M13, the first of which to be revealed was Lord of Atlantis 2.0 pictured above. I can only assume that we will get a new Goblin lord as part of this cycle.

Looking at the name and number crunch, there are 2 spots open at #143 and #144: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=420726 . Since the merfolk lord is master of the Pearl trident, and there is a spot right after it open in the crunch, people are speculating that merfolk of the pearl trident will also be in. So what does that leave us? My guess is that 143 or 144 is most likely “Mon’s goblin Raiders,” and the other one is “Mon’s X,” which will be a lord. The same two spots would allow for two Goblins starting with the word “Mogg.” Possibly “Mogg Fanatic” and “Mogg X,” the second of which would be a lord. The non-lord could also be mogg war-marshall.

I am certain that one of the 2 options outlined above will be correct. That leaves a few questions:

1.Will we get a 2 mana lord?

2.What would he have to do at 2cmc to replace Warchief/Chieftan/WInstigator/MWM? Probably a lot, right? If he isn’t absolutely busted, he probably won’t be powerful enough. That being said, they definitely made the Merfolk lord a beast, so our guy could be just as strong. Printing a strong goblin lord here would make goblins more popular/viable in Modern, which I assume Wizards would like since they are such an iconic tribe.

3.What if it is a 3 mana lord? How could they possibly make it better than Warchief or Chieftan without making it too good at 3cmc?

As another point, I think it is obvious that Wizards printed the Merfolk lord with an eye to Legacy, where the deck has been struggling, and an eye to Modern, where it hasn’t yet been quite good enough. If that is the case, the question becomes do they print a strong gobo lord to push the archtype in modern (and risk it being VERY good in legacy), or a sub-par one because they realize that Goblins is already strong in legacy and a good 2cmc lord might be too much of a push. Or they could hedge, and give us something that we already have.

Here is my guess:

Mon’s/Mogg Warchief 1RR

Goblins you control have haste.

Other Goblins you control cost 1 less to play.

Yep, that’s a warchief reprint. If this happens, do we want more than 4? I'm excited.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, the term “lord” might only refer to creatures that give the +1/+1 bonus. So the Warchief reprint might not work. I can’t decide if this is better or worse. Either way, I still stand by the rest of the analysis.

[ScatmanX]

Ok, so this is my 1st attempt to work with Krenko in a different build (actually 4th, but ‘st I’m posting).
I opted for a B splash because of Frogtosser Banneret. Playing T3 Krenko out of it must be nice. Also, it is an OK card overall, going well with my other splash.
White comes in for Mirror Entity. With lots of tokens, and cost reduction goblins, Entity may turn out to be awesome. I really want to test his power with Krenko, especially if they cost W and RR due to reduction, leaving mana up for pump.
The removal suit is quite standard, and the Prospectors are in there because they’re awesome.
The manabase seems actually fine. 21 lands with 10B souces(+caverns), 7W sources(+caverns), with 12 R for Gempalm(+Prospector)
On the SB I don’t want W cards, because 7 sources make it unreliable, but 10 for B may actually cut it.
What it came down to is this (COMPLETELY untested) list:


4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
1 Auntie's Hovel
6 Fetch
1 Plateau
2 Mountain

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Siege-Gang Commander

2 Mirror Entity
2 Krenko
2 Mogg Warmarchall
4 Frogtosser Banneret

2 Skirk Prospector

3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weirdings

Sideboard:
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroknesis
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Fearie Macabre
1 Earwig Squad
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Cabal+3 Blast is to fight SnT and combo. Cabal is awesome with tokens. Squad help here too.
The rest is standard.

I’m going to try this list out for the week. Anyone have comments on any changes I might try before I start?
Really looking forward to see if this crap works out.

Edit: *uck. A Sharpshooter is clearly missing somewhere...

[Steamflogger]

Okay, so merfolk got a new toy: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132735

Mark Rosewater has already confirmed that there is a new lord cycle in M13, the first of which to be revealed was Lord of Atlantis 2.0 pictured above. I can only assume that we will get a new Goblin lord as part of this cycle.

I've also read that at some other fora but never saw any proof or real quotation of Mark Rosewater. So I searched and could only find this in an article he wrote yesterday:
"There's another uncommon cycle that hasn't been shown yet but adds an interesting twist for drafting. There are more lords. There's more "build around me" for Limited."
(The link FYI: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/201 )
Prior to this he writes about the cycles of monocolored legends and Planeswalkers. But nothing about a lord cycle. There is still hope since "There are more lords." is better than nothing. But I think someone out there was a bit overenthusiastic and read it as a cycle of lords. So we shouldn't be too depressed if there's nothing special left ;)

[ReinVos]

If RUG and Maverick are rough already, then what exactly are you trying to beat besides UW decks (which are also a bit rough due to Batterskull) and BUG decks (that have Deed)? Combo decks have always been a big problem for Goblins so there seems little left that you can truly prey on, since Merfolk and Counterbalance isn't played that much anymore (although admittedly both seem to be making a comeback).

Goblins like it when you have lots of (conditional) counters and lots of spot removal because they can gain back those losses through Matron and Ringleader as well as sometimes blanking counters with turn one Vial. But today, we have sweepers (Deed, Terminus), Snapcaster Mage (flashbacking a plow and blocking a guy) and impressive roadblocks (Knight, SFM into a Batterskull or sometimes even SoFI), not to mention decks like Sneak Show and ANT.

[woodjt5]

I've also read that at some other fora but never saw any proof or real quotation of Mark Rosewater. So I searched and could only find this in an article he wrote yesterday:
"There's another uncommon cycle that hasn't been shown yet but adds an interesting twist for drafting. There are more lords. There's more "build around me" for Limited."
(The link FYI: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/201 )
Prior to this he writes about the cycles of monocolored legends and Planeswalkers. But nothing about a lord cycle. There is still hope since "There are more lords." is better than nothing. But I think someone out there was a bit overenthusiastic and read it as a cycle of lords. So we shouldn't be too depressed if there's nothing special left ;)

A boy can dream.

[woodjt5]

If RUG and Maverick are rough already, then what exactly are you trying to beat besides UW decks (which are also a bit rough due to Batterskull) and BUG decks (that have Deed)? Combo decks have always been a big problem for Goblins so there seems little left that you can truly prey on, since Merfolk and Counterbalance isn't played that much anymore (although admittedly both seem to be making a comeback).

Goblins like it when you have lots of (conditional) counters and lots of spot removal because they can gain back those losses through Matron and Ringleader as well as sometimes blanking counters with turn one Vial. But today, we have sweepers (Deed, Terminus), Snapcaster Mage (flashbacking a plow and blocking a guy) and impressive roadblocks (Knight, SFM into a Batterskull or sometimes even SoFI), not to mention decks like Sneak Show and ANT.

I don't agree with your assessment that "RUG and Maverick are rough already." The only cards that really scare me out of Maverick are Mom, 2+ early plows backed by creatures, and Elspeth, which they don't all run. I have alwasy done well against Maverick.

As for RUG, Cavern really helps the matchup. They will never win with goyfs or geese. Just save the removal for delver, don't walk into counterspells, and eventually swarm them.

[woodjt5]

Unrelated:

New Goblin tokens look AWESOME: http://www.planeswalkerslibrary.com/images/m13/tokens/06.jpg

[L10]

perish? MAV n RUG are tuf matches, and maybe some random elves and bant.

spellbomb is an option......relic of progenitus is realy good. but be certain of 4-6 slots for grave hate.

I am not using Perish because I can't consistently cast it with only four Auntie's Hovel. I am not using Relic of Progenitus because it will mess up my graveyard, and I am using Wort. I may as well use Tormod's Crypt though because I rarely use Nihil Spellbomb's ability.


x1 Badland doesnt seem that bad for x2 Perish in SB, plus im running x2 anarchys, seems reasanable. White Weenies (death n taxes) keep making first place around here, that and the unbanning of land tax seem really good run anarchy in deck.
Hey, if it works, it works. I can't knock that.


Okay, so merfolk got a new toy: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...hmentid=132735
Maybe we will get a 2cmc Goblin King. :D It may be worth using if it costs 1R.

And yeah, the new goblin token looks sweet.

[ReinVos]

Yeah. Maverick seems rough because of Mother and Knight primarily but also a lot of other cards like Ooze (blocking your guys and eating their corpses) and Thalia (first strike is good against Goblins) and of course Jitte.

RUG seems better but sometimes you don't have a Cavern (or it gets wasted) and they are able to counter your early threats while hitting you with the insect. By the time the scales are tipping in your favor, you get bolted out.

I think that being a bit worse against Maverick and being slightly favorited against RUG (this could be wrong but it feels like that to me) isn't enough when your other match-ups aren't good enough (the dredge and combo decks) as well as some random but legitimate decks (Stax or Enchantress drops a Moat or D&T beats you).

[jrw1985]

Speculating on printings:

So far they're spoiled a playable 4cc goblin and trash (like, not playable in Standard even). Merfolk has gotten 2 Legacy-playable 2cc Folk and a 3rd Standard playable Ophidian-folk. Elves have gotten dick-all. We'll see what the last 50 spoiled cards have in store for goblins. It seems like they could very well have a pertinent 2-drop up their sleeves yet. Considering the large number of artifacts coming out in M13 I'm sticking with my dream of a playable 2-drop Shatter-on-a-Stick.

[woodjt5]

Speculating on printings:

So far they're spoiled a playable 4cc goblin and trash (like, not playable in Standard even). Merfolk has gotten 2 Legacy-playable 2cc Folk and a 3rd Standard playable Ophidian-folk. Elves have gotten dick-all. We'll see what the last 50 spoiled cards have in store for goblins. It seems like they could very well have a pertinent 2-drop up their sleeves yet. Considering the large number of artifacts coming out in M13 I'm sticking with my dream of a playable 2-drop Shatter-on-a-Stick.

That would be perfect.

[GoboLord]

Unrelated:

New Goblin tokens look AWESOME: http://www.planeswalkerslibrary.com/images/m13/tokens/06.jpg

Booooring :laugh:
I use those ones as tokens :cool:

http://i50.tinypic.com/o9lbwh.jpg

[ScatmanX]

Booooring :laugh:
I use those ones as tokens :cool:
I use Pete Venture's Unglued ones. =]
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=5503&type=card

[Yuri8]

Always wanted those unglued ones, but forgot to order them every time, so I ended with these blanks instead.

http://i.imgur.com/OjEKv.jpg

[woodjt5]

I use Pete Venture's Unglued ones. =]
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=5503&type=card

I only have three of those from back in the day, and they are ridiculously expensive for tokens so I don't plan on buying any more. I plan on supplementing them with the new M13 tokens, and I expect I'll be needing quite a few with Krenko, MWM, and Siege-gang in my list.

Also, on a related note, I play with these mountains:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=3578&type=card

[ScatmanX]

I use these, and don't care if they are ugly as hell:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=2382&type=card
Just to make it worse, they're all in english, but one is in italian. =p (no pimp over here)

[L10]

I use all three Beta Mountains. These are my tokens:
http://i.imgur.com/1lmDNm.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/KLaO2m.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/4FFoom.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/TrXHXm.png

If Merfolk becomes popular again, my wish is to Vial in a Goatnapper, take their Mutavault, and block.

[Humphrey]

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1517/dsc00173yr.jpg

I use S-C Mountains, they are very shiny in foil.


On Topic: I doubt there will be an new Lord, i expect Chieftain reprint. At very best its
Mons Goblin Lord 1RR with the updated wording "your goblins"

But printing good merfolk means we can cook fish to victory in the future again :)

[jrw1985]

I use these, and don't care if they are ugly as hell:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=2382&type=card
Just to make it worse, they're all in english, but one is in italian. =p (no pimp over here)

Mini-rant:

Some unfuckable, middle-aged, borderline autistic dork was giving me shit for playing with white-bordered Mogg Fanatics once. I was actually surprised at how irritating it was. Like, the fact that I'm playing these cards should make it patently clear that I don't give a flying fuck about pimping out my deck/collection. The problem with playing Magic, though, is that it's kind of a bastion for socially awful gomers that cannot comprehend that people play this game to degrees and for reasons that differ from theirs. So you find yourself getting chastized for running Bad cards when you're just trying something new and fun, or some unbathed bachelor who lives in his mother's basement is mocking you for having better things to do with your time than buy the most expensive piece of overpriced cardboard possible. And you can't even sock them in their congested noses or split their cankerous lips or pummel their undulating stomach-flabs 'cuz, ya know, you won't be able to come back for next week's tournament. What a bummer. So you just gotta roll with these spastic nerds that give every Magic player a bad name and just try to be even-keeled and normal and generally pleasant toward your fellow players and competitors and be patient and understanding towards the oblivious, obnoxious, odious geeks that make your skin crawl.

End of rant.
PS- Not bashing all deck pimpers here, obviously. Just venting about deck pimpers that feel an unwarranted amount of self-worth/superiority which they derive from their deck pimping, and how that translates into other facets of the game and gaming population. Like, just be cool, yo.

[Humphrey]

that was more than a mini rant lol ^^

actually im a person who likes perfectionism on details. So if you have alle the same wb fanatics or mountains, im fine.

:laugh::cool:

[L10]

Someone actually gave me shit once for not changing the artist name or have a custom logo (instead of X) on my goblin tokens. Though, I think he was mainly pissed that Goatnapped his 8/8 Taurean Mauler and finished him off with it.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Maybe we will get a 2cmc Goblin King. :D


I doubt there will be an new Lord, i expect Chieftain reprint.
Actually the name and number crunch (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=420726) shows a Goblin Chieftain reprint is impossible. We get something new or no Lord...


And yeah, the new goblin token looks sweet. :cool:

[Pee-Dee-2]

I also think, we are getting something like "Mon's Goblin Chieftain" which will be the same as a Chieftain.

Anyway: My Tokencards are always the good old Playercards. There are some Pro's I don't like so its always nice to put them on the field and throw them into the battle.

[woodjt5]

I finally completed my set of wastelands this weekend and was able to do some testing in between rounds of Standard last night. I played three games against Dredge unboarded, going 2-1. I also played 3 unboarded games against counterbalance, also going 2-1. Both of these matchups seemed favorable (although CB would have been worse if he was running terminus.)

Against the control list, WInstigator performed great. He would have to force or swords my turn 1 lackey and then have nothing left to deal with an Instigator on turn 2. That card scares the sh*t out of people, which is awesome.

Is anyone playing Goblins in Atlanta this weekend? I wish I could make it, but a 10 hour drive just isn't hpossible with work on both friday and Monday.

[ScatmanX]

I also think, we are getting something like "Mon's Goblin Chieftain" which will be the same as a Chieftain.
I think Mon's, Goblin Overlord would be an awesomen name, but don't think it will happend...

[mrblueduck]

Has anyone seen the video posted by Channelfireball earlier this month, top 8 goblins by Patrick Chapin? Well don't bother, its a big waste of time, but here was his list.

8. Siege Gang Commander
7. Globlin Piledriver
6. Goblin Flotilla
5. Goblin Warchief
4. Goblin Welder
3. Goblin Lackey
2. Goblin Recruiter
1. Goblin Wizard
:rolleyes:

[Humphrey]

Has anyone seen the video posted by Channelfireball earlier this month, top 8 goblins by Patrick Chapin? Well don't bother, its a big waste of time, but here was his list.

8. Siege Gang Commander
7. Globlin Piledriver
6. Goblin Flotilla
5. Goblin Warchief
4. Goblin Welder
3. Goblin Lackey
2. Goblin Recruiter
1. Goblin Wizard
:rolleyes:

the guy is trolling. recruiter is banned

[Avatara]

the guy is trolling. recruiter is banned That's not relevant unless he's talking about Legacy.

[Humphrey]

That's not relevant unless he's talking about Legacy.

ok i misunderstood, i thought he went top8 with those goblins. it meant to be a ranking.

well then its even more trolling lol. Goblin Flotilla, Goblin Wizard? What the hell is he smoking? Maybe thats the reason Japan didnt let him in. :laugh:

[Avatara]

well then its even more trolling lol. Goblin Flotilla, Goblin Wizard? What the hell is he smoking? Maybe thats the reason Japan didnt let him in. :laugh: Those goblins have pretty unique abilities for red cards; Goblin Flotilla is the only red creature with islandwalk.

[gregtron]

I finally completed my set of wastelands this weekend and was able to do some testing in between rounds of Standard last night. I played three games against Dredge unboarded, going 2-1. I also played 3 unboarded games against counterbalance, also going 2-1. Both of these matchups seemed favorable (although CB would have been worse if he was running terminus.)

Against the control list, WInstigator performed great. He would have to force or swords my turn 1 lackey and then have nothing left to deal with an Instigator on turn 2. That card scares the sh*t out of people, which is awesome.

Is anyone playing Goblins in Atlanta this weekend? I wish I could make it, but a 10 hour drive just isn't hpossible with work on both friday and Monday.


I'm seriously considering taking an audible to Goblins instead of Esper Stoneblade. I have no idea how you guys aren't crushing every single event you go to, because Goblins is trashing our gauntlet left and right. Then again, we also cut Tendrils and High Tide from our testing because they're just not as heavily represented these days.

What're you guys running for a manabase these days? Ours is 4 Cavern, 4 Port, 4 Wasteland, Fetches, a single Badlands, and Mountains. If that's not optimal, then I shudder to think of what a tuned manabase would do to us.

[woodjt5]

I'm seriously considering taking an audible to Goblins instead of Esper Stoneblade. I have no idea how you guys aren't crushing every single event you go to, because Goblins is trashing our gauntlet left and right. Then again, we also cut Tendrils and High Tide from our testing because they're just not as heavily represented these days.

What're you guys running for a manabase these days? Ours is 4 Cavern, 4 Port, 4 Wasteland, Fetches, a single Badlands, and Mountains. If that's not optimal, then I shudder to think of what a tuned manabase would do to us.

I run mono-red, and I've found that the basics are very important. I run 4 cavern, 4 waste, no fetches (not worth it if there is no second color...there's stats reflecting this in the thread somewhere), and anywhere between 0 and 3 ports depending on the day. 21 lands total, so that leaves 10-13 mountains, and I could definitely see going up to 22 lands if your list is especially mana hungry. Recently I've been stickign to 1 port, not because the ports are bad, but because the red sources and basics are so important.

Some people also run chrome mox to varying levels of effect, but I don't have them so I have no experience with that. I think Scatman X either is or was running them, so he might be able to chime in.

Also, I don't know what your list looks like, but I would suggest 2 stingscourgers main. We have 8 ways to make him uncounterable against Grislebrand decks, he's a great tempo swing in creature matchups, and he kills bridges by himself agaisnt dredge.

[Davran]

I'm seriously considering taking an audible to Goblins instead of Esper Stoneblade. I have no idea how you guys aren't crushing every single event you go to, because Goblins is trashing our gauntlet left and right. Then again, we also cut Tendrils and High Tide from our testing because they're just not as heavily represented these days.

What're you guys running for a manabase these days? Ours is 4 Cavern, 4 Port, 4 Wasteland, Fetches, a single Badlands, and Mountains. If that's not optimal, then I shudder to think of what a tuned manabase would do to us.

4x Wasteland
4x Cavern
13x Mountain

Ports aren't really optimal right now, nor is the black splash. I've been putting up consistent results locally without the Caverns (I don't own any), but if I were headed to GP this weekend that's the mana base I would play.

[csy]

no fetches (not worth it if there is no second color...there's stats reflecting this in the thread somewhere)

whoa! are you for real? fetches are excellent, its basically like running a sub 60 count deck. I dunno maybe Im biased, but Id always run fetches.

[woodjt5]

whoa! are you for real? fetches are excellent, its basically like running a sub 60 count deck. I dunno maybe Im biased, but Id always run fetches.

I am by no means a fetchlands-in-goblins expert, but this is my understanding of the trade-offs:

Pro:

1. thins the deck a non-zero amount, giving you less lands and more business to draw every turn, and makes your first ring leader more likely to hit goblins instead of lands.

2. Allows you to run multiple colors

Con:

1. Increases susceptibility to stifle.

2. Makes your *second* ringleader (and any you draw after that) worse by shuffling all the lands on the bottom back into your deck.

In my mind, the cons outweigh the benefits, especially in a mono-red build.

[Davran]

whoa! are you for real? fetches are excellent, its basically like running a sub 60 count deck. I dunno maybe Im biased, but Id always run fetches.

Fetches are awful in this deck if you don't need them for a splash. You're taking a non-zero amount of damage you don't otherwise have to take, opening your mana base up to Stifle, and potentially shuffling all of that useless stuff you just bottomed with Ringleader back into your deck. Plus, cards like Aven Mindcensor see fringe play, so limiting the usefulness of those against us is an occasional benefit.

The "deck thinning" argument has been proven false elsewhere.

[jrw1985]

whoa! are you for real? fetches are excellent, its basically like running a sub 60 count deck. I dunno maybe Im biased, but Id always run fetches.

I ran the numbers on this a while ago. The results where that fetching 0-3 times doesn't statistically affect the number of goblins you're going to hit on a Ringleader. Fetching 0-3 times means you're most likely to draw 2 or fewer goblins. You need to fetch a full 4 times before you're more likely to draw 3 or 4 goblins. Basically, you're spending 4 life to statistically draw 1 more card. So running fetches without a splash is just like getting a really bad Sylvan Library effect when you Ringleader. I used to run fetches in a mono-R build, but after crunching the numbers I stopped and haven't regretted it at all since.

[akabidu]

Has anyone seen the video posted by Channelfireball earlier this month, top 8 goblins by Patrick Chapin? Well don't bother, its a big waste of time, but here was his list.

8. Siege Gang Commander
7. Globlin Piledriver
6. Goblin Flotilla
5. Goblin Warchief
4. Goblin Welder
3. Goblin Lackey
2. Goblin Recruiter
1. Goblin Wizard
:rolleyes:


This guy plays with fishes(seems to like blue and stupid) , or smokes hard. Lackey first man, maybe a matron and ring on the list. Wizard?da fuq!

[mrblueduck]

This guy plays with fishes(seems to like blue and stupid) , or smokes hard. Lackey first man, maybe a matron and ring on the list. Wizard?da fuq!

LOL yes. Here would be my actual list. Not including Recruiter or Welder for obvious reasons.

8. Mogg War-Marshall
7. Gempalm Incinerator
6. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
5. Goblin Chieftain
4. Goblin Ringleader
3. Warren Instigator
2. Goblin Matron
1. Goblin Lackey

I can see arguing to add Warchief, (which would directly effect the value of Instigator), but I can see no reason Piledriver should be considered anything but mediocre. This isnt 2004.

[ReinVos]

I haven't seen the video but I don't think it's a top 10 for Goblins in a Goblins deck. Goblin Guide should really be in any top 10. It's one of the best red creatures ever printed, and it's a Goblin!

[raindrainxi]

I haven't seen the video but I don't think it's a top 10 for Goblins in a Goblins deck. Goblin Guide should really be in any top 10. It's one of the best red creatures ever printed, and it's a Goblin!

If that's so, then Squee, Goblin Nabob is worth a mention.

[jrw1985]

I played the Rg Goblin list that won Indianapolis at my local tourney last night (but I played my own sideboard for my meta). I was not a fan. The list didn't do terribly, but I found it to be a little light on removal and had too many dead cards. Port didn't do too much for me, tin street was a blank. I found myself drawing too many Lands and wanting to Matron for Fanatic or Tarfire on occasion.

It was fun to have Rishadan Port and Fetches again, but Port didn't do anything and I never needed to fetch G mana.

R1 UR Delver
G1 He hit a few too many lands and I easily overwhelmed him.
G2 I couldn't establish a board position. Needed Tarfire/Fanatic to kill Lavamancer/Delver.
G3 I mull to 5 looking for a keepable hand. My Lackey gets bolted and when I Pyrokinesis his Delver he plays 2 more creatures the next turn. Again, Tarfire/Fanatic would have been very helpful here. I also managed to draw 7 lands and 8 non-lands this game.
Port was useless in this MU. As was the green splash. I probably would have had more luck if I'd gotten more Vial openers, but whatllyado? You gotta play the cards you draw.

R2 Reanimator
G1 I'm on the draw. I land a T1 Lackey. He starts T2 with a Griselbrand. That'll keep a Lackey from getting through (you can't even attack into that guy!). L
G2 I mull to a hand with Leyline and Stingscourger. Show and Tell bounces an Iona. W
G3 My starting 7 has like 5 lands. The 6 has no hate and is slow. The five was something like Mountain, 3x Lackey, MWM. I showed him the hand before mulling to 4. The 4 had Leyline, Relic, Pyroblast, and MWM. No land, but a Leyline and hate, so I kept. When he Show and Told I was able to put a Matron into play that died to an Elesh Norn right before tutoring up a Stingscourger. I then held the Stingscourger in hand politely while I waited for either a third land so I could Pryoblast and Stingscourger or draw into a Cavern. I took a few hits and the Stingker got Thoughtseized anyway.

After the match my opponent was trying to convince me that I should have kept the 3 Lackey hand and just hoped to topdeck into something. I adamantly believe I was right to ship the Lackey hand back. 3 Lackeys and a MWM don't do anything against his deck. They are slower than any line of play he'll go for and they don't slow down his plans at all.

Overall, I don't think I'll be adopting a 4 Port, 4 MWM build any time soon. MWM continues to underwhelm. I think Winstigator can have a much larger effect on the game. It dissuades opponents from attacking rather than chump blocking. Since Port isn't having that big of an effect on the game there's no reason not to cut it for more red sources, which make playing cards like WIn and Cheiftain more attractive. And playing without Ports allows you to simultaneously strengthen your manabase and up your goblin count.

[from Cairo]

4x Wasteland
4x Cavern [of Souls]
13x Mountain


I like this ^ + 1x Rishadan Port as mana source #22, and ~Wasteland #5. With this 22nd mana source having utility, it can atleast have additional application if flooded, but generally in Goblins I'd rather have 1-2 extra mana than be short 1-2 mana. The deck's curve is higher than 90% of the field, and Wasteland is prevalent.

But overall I'm on board, 17 Red sources has proven itself repeatedly to me to be optimal, and with 5 Colorless one can put them to use (Gempalm, Matron, Ringleader, SGC) while not having them be a liability, like Rishadan Ports #2-4 when one is looking to explode board presence on a pivitol turn. The difference of staring at 3 Red sources and 2 Colorless versus 4 Red sources and 1 Colorless can be quite large especially with Goblin Warchief.

[L10]

jrw1985, it sounded like you had bad draws and luck. I think a deck like Jim Davis's relies less on removal and more on board control. It requires a lot of mental math to figure out how many goblins you are willing to block against an opposing Tarmogoyf and Batterskull, or just chump block for next turn. I use to play a variant of Jim's decklist and really liked it. Everything seemed to work together really well, especially if I get a Skirk Prospector online. But I am sure you guys have talked a lot about Jim Davis's decklist, but I don't come here often.

Recently, my friend has been running Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fire. I thought it was a neat engine to try, especially since I want to run Tin Street Hooligans. I decided to put four of each cards in, and quickly realized the disadvantages it has on a Goblin deck. Neither cards may be searchable so I have to rely on chance. My friend's deck has set of Knight of the Reliquary to find Grove of the Burnwillows and cantrips for Punishing Fire, while Ringleader would just put them at the bottom of library. I which Ringleader would just dump stuff to the grave. Oh well. My friend says this tech has been out for months so I am not sure if this is relevant. Just felt like sharing.

Has anyone tried maindecking three Earwig Squads or Blood Moon / Magus of the Moon? This is something I am looking forward to next.

Also, I think Sulfuric Vortex is highly underrated. It makes Battleskull a 4/4 dude with vigilance. It also stops my friend's Punishing Fire engine. I am not sure how relevant Punishing Fire is though. It also makes Soul Sisters cry, which is irrelevant in most metas probably. lol

[supachai]

Has anyone tried maindecking three Earwig Squads or Blood Moon / Magus of the Moon? This is something I am looking forward to next.



Don't run non-goblin cards main, with the exception of Aether Vial. I don't even like the lists packing Pyrokinesis main. It's just not necessary and seriously dilutes the raw power of Ringleader. Keep the hate cards in the side. You should only be bringing in non-goblins if they are going to be 1. so powerful that it destroys your opponents (e.g Blood Moon for nonbasics) or 2. necessary to your survival (Chalice/Mindbreak for combo etc).

[jrw1985]

Goblins make Top 8 at GP Atlanta!


J. Sawyer Lucy
Grand Prix Atlanta 2012 - Top 8
View a sample hand of this deck
Download a .dek file for use in Magic Online

Main Deck

60 cards

2 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
6 Mountain
1 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills
20 lands

3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin King
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
34 creatures

4 Aether Vial
2 Pyrokinesis
6 other spells

Sideboard
3 Gilded Drake
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Shattering Spree
2 Sulfur Elemental

Fucking madness. i love it.

[woodjt5]

Goblins make Top 8 at GP Atlanta!


J. Sawyer Lucy
Grand Prix Atlanta 2012 - Top 8
View a sample hand of this deck
Download a .dek file for use in Magic Online

Main Deck

60 cards

2 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
6 Mountain
1 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills
20 lands

3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin King
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
34 creatures

4 Aether Vial
2 Pyrokinesis
6 other spells

Sideboard
3 Gilded Drake
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Shattering Spree
2 Sulfur Elemental

Fucking madness. i love it.

The king for RUG Delver. The Thalia for all of our normally terrible combo match-ups. GILDED DRAKE (WHAT!?) for Reanimator and Sneak & Show. I would never in a million years think of splashing white for Thalia or blue for anything at all. Insanity.

[PedroFilipe92]

No Wasteland? :|

[Viridia]

Lolwat, i have to admit, that is the coolest goblin list i've ever seen

[Humphrey]

While i find the bluesplash for Drake kind of useless, because Drake is very narrow and Stingscourger handles the same situations, I can see the use of Thalia.

To bad we didnt see at least 1 match. But in the end, the deck wins with its core, not the "fillers"

[fimo]

interesting white splash for thalia. I d like to test it as well. Nevertheless, I guess that most of the times one would wish that thalia was chalice of the void which doesn t even require white splash...

[Humphrey]

interesting white splash for thalia. I d like to test it as well. Nevertheless, I guess that most of the times one would wish that thalia was chalice of the void which doesn t even require white splash...

It was metatuned against RUG, which is heavenly played in the states. Thalia is much better than chalice, because it can be vialed or "caverned" and is a beater/blocker. Also it doesnt pump the goyf when removed/countered.

I think it was an interesting choice, but I dont think it was the main reason for the success.
I prefer Wastelands over Thalia

[ScatmanX]

It was metatuned against RUG...
Aaaaaannd he lost to Canadian on the top8 =/
Don't really like his list too... But would very much would have appreciated see any of his games.

[woodjt5]

I wonder if his nontraditional list helped against the Grislebrand and other combo decks but made him weaker to RUG, which is a pretty winnable match-up. I played some games during downtime at an IQ this weekend (all pre-board), and lost hard to Reanimator and Belcher but went like 4-0 against RUG.

[Vacrix]

The king for RUG Delver. The Thalia for all of our normally terrible combo match-ups. GILDED DRAKE (WHAT!?) for Reanimator and Sneak & Show. I would never in a million years think of splashing white for Thalia or blue for anything at all. Insanity.
I mentioned a while back that this deck should start metagaming and take advantage of playing stuff like bears now that the deck has access to both Vial and Cavern. Glad someone picked up on it. That list looks pretty fucking boss.

[fimo]

13th place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Seattle, Washington, United States on 2012-07-01

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Guide
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Warren Instigator

Basic Lands
18 Mountain

Lands
2 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Blood Moon
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast



To be honest I have never tested guide... but wtf? It doesn t seem to me that goblin guide fits in the philosophy of this deck...

[Humphrey]

13th place at a StarCityGames.com Legacy Open tournament in Seattle, Washington, United States on 2012-07-01

Maindeck:


To be honest I have never tested guide... but wtf? It doesn t seem to me that goblin guide fits in the philosophy of this deck...


But in the end, the deck wins with its core, not the "fillers"

Its interesting to see two goblin lists without Wasteland placing well.

Another thing, no Mons Lord in M13 :eek:

[supachai]

A deck that has an odd inclusion (or exclusion) like Thalia, Guide, or (lack of) Wasteland, even if it places well, does not mean it's instantly the the best version to play. Goblins is still strong because of its core, and those minor changes often make little difference. Maybe Thalia can be good against RUG and Combo, but you have to remember that these builds are tuned towards specific metas. And remember, player skill and deck construction (although very important) aren't the only things that matter in tournaments. The decks you get paired against and even the luck of the draw can affect your chances greatly. Bad lists can sometimes do well and good lists often don't make it to T8. So, just take all these deviant lists with a grain of salt.

[danyul]

I was in the group of the guy who piloted that deck to 13th and he was running well that day. He borrowed the deck from another guy at our shop and neither one of them are legacy gurus or anything. The lack of wastelands and ports is due to budget restrictions. The pilot was playing very well though and sometimes that's more important than an optimal list.

[1maarten1]

This is the list I have been toying around with lately:
13 mountain
4 wasteland
4 cavern

4 aether vial
4 goblin lackey
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader
4 goblin warchief
4 gempalm incinerator

3 goblin chieftain
3 mogg-war marshall

2 siege gang
2 krenko
2 piledriver

1 tarfire
1 stingscourger
1 skirk prospector

sb:
4 leyline
4 chalice
2 pyrokinesis
2 sulfuric vortex
1 sharpshooter
1 stingscourger
1 tuktuk

Its been good for me lately, Krenko has been performing well so I upped it to 2.

Havent liked wasteland lately, but Ill keep it in since it does still win random matches.

With merfolk hopefully getting a stronger position also, I think goblins gains quite a bit in power after m13.

Any thoughts?

[GoboLord]

I was in the group of the guy who piloted that deck to 13th and he was running well that day. He borrowed the deck from another guy at our shop and neither one of them are legacy gurus or anything. The lack of wastelands and ports is due to budget restrictions. The pilot was playing very well though and sometimes that's more important than an optimal list.

Listen up fellers. This man's words hold truth.

[Vacrix]

Perhaps Wasteland isn't as effective a method of control against the general metagame right now. If you lose Ports to Cavern of Souls then perhaps the plan is compromised. Granted, Wasteland gets you out of a lot of sticky situations like against Lands where they drop a Tabenacle or Chasm to lock you out til you draw Waste, or Maze of Ith to slow you down (Lackey/Instigator/Piledriver). Either way, the splashes ought to be thoroughly explored now that the deck has maindeck access to a rainbow land (Cavern) to play whatever bear or Drake(?) is required for a poor matchup.

I thought that Goblins had a decent matchup against SneakShow and Reanimator anyway though given that Matron --> Stingscourer in the maindeck as well as post-board Stingscourers. I guess Gilded Drake is slightly more effective because you get to keep the creature rather than bounce it. Stingscourer can sometimes brick when they can just cheat 'fat dude' again if they played Sneak Attack rather than Show and Tell. Same can be said of redundant reanimation if you don't have a clock yet. Thalia is definitely boss against Storm combo. Being able to Vial it into play is even more deadly because you can respond to Inquisition and Chant doesn't stop you from Vialing it into play. It also a powerful surprise that a storm pilot isn't expected to play around.

@1maarten1
I think Krenko might deserve more sideboard than maindeck space. He's good but you already have Matron to find him. He might be good as a 2'of post-board though when you start running into RUG/UR's Burn and want to find another one. As long as he hits play when you have a lord out, he'll have haste and make a bunch of dudes even if he eats a Burn spell.


@Goblin Guides
Its a pretty aggressive card but it doesn't make sense, even when the list doesn't play Wasteland. It does give the list 12 powerful turn 1 plays though; 4 Vial, 4 Lackey or 4 Guide.