[Deck] Goblins

[akabidu]

The king for RUG Delver. The Thalia for all of our normally terrible combo match-ups. GILDED DRAKE (WHAT!?) for Reanimator and Sneak & Show. I would never in a million years think of splashing white for Thalia or blue for anything at all. Insanity.


I dont think you guys know that when goblin was a high tier 1 deck, it was splashed with all colors....white for swords, blue for brainstorm and daze. Maybe not great....but the deck was insane back in the days. This list seems...dont know, but if it were good people would be playing it. And dont say that he invented it!.

[1maarten1]

@1maarten1
I think Krenko might deserve more sideboard than maindeck space. He's good but you already have Matron to find him. He might be good as a 2'of post-board though when you start running into RUG/UR's Burn and want to find another one. As long as he hits play when you have a lord out, he'll have haste and make a bunch of dudes even if he eats a Burn spell.

Yea you are probably right, with Merfolk becoming more popular the third piledriver should get better too so that is what I will be cutting it for.

[ScatmanX]

Those list got good results inspite Thalia and Guide, not because of them.
The only info I could find about the top8list of the gp is the written coverage of the top8 match against Canadian. Conclusion: Thalia was bad. He had to name Humans with Caverns to get one down, only to have a Matron countered later.
Goblins is a synergistic deck, and he made it ledd optimal with that move.
Also, Thalia + Wasteland look way better than just Thalias.

As for Guide, if you're trying to be agressive, run some Chrome Moxes, and get the possibility for Instigator/Piledriver T1. Guide is bad. It may win you some games, like that Thalia, but that does not mean the card is good.

Krenko, on the other hand, is proving to be awesome. My count is @2 too. 1 activation from it will win you the game against fair decks.
Don't know if that is enough reason to run 2, but he is so fun. Is like adding a (another) minigame to the deck. If your opponent can't answer it, he'll lose.

[L10]

http://i.imgur.com/ZQ6rj.png

Awesome art for the Arms Dealer reprint. We didn't get a lord after all.

[Davran]

Awesome art for the Arms Dealer reprint. We didn't get a lord after all.

Here's hoping we didn't get one now because there is a sweet one waiting in RTR. This set is pretty disappointing overall...seems like they hit random on gatherer a bunch of times to decide which cards to reprint.

[BigBopper]

Actually I didn't expect Chieftain to be reprinted in M13 again, since it was already in M10, M11 and M12. But since Merfolk got a new lord and elves got his awesome combination of lord and titania reprinted there might be something upcoming in the next block.
Also wizards printed lots of goblins, which seems like they could rise in standard again, which is another reason to expect more of them in RTR and following editions. Krenko is pretty cool, too, the only thing that doesn't really fit is Torch Fiend since he's a devil.
Just print him as an updated version of Tinkerer and we would be fine.

@Gobolord: Since Merfolk is on a rise again I'm seeing more and more SoF/I. Do you think it is necessary to run artifact hate MD again? We can work around Jitte with Prospecter, Fanatic and Removal but this Sword just kills everything in our army.

[GoboLord]

@Gobolord: Since Merfolk is on a rise again I'm seeing more and more SoF/I. Do you think it is necessary to run artifact hate MD again? We can work around Jitte with Prospecter, Fanatic and Removal but this Sword just kills everything in our army.

I think you are jumping to conclusions here.
The fact that Wizards has pinted a twinbrother for Lord of Atlantis does not mean that players will actually pick up the deck again. Merfolk didn't disappear because a lack of good lordcreatures - so I don't think that Master of Pearl Trident will make fish a viable choice again. I highly doubt that "Merfolk is on a rise".
Plus, I think that people will run SoF&I only if Merfolk will be a real competitor again (which is even more unlikely). So, for now I would not worry about Swords of nastiness, since other (already existing) strategies and builds are very effective against fish, too.

[Annatar]

How many colourless mana sources do you think this deck can support? I think Rishadan Port is still good enough not to sign off just yet, but I fear that there are times (cycling of gempalms, siege-gang activations and so on) when you really need genuine red mana.

Also, it might be prudent to start talking about plans against Engineered Plague again. The deck has placed well in three consecutive large tournaments so I don't think such an obvious houser will remain ignored for long. Krosan Grip is the norm for the green splash I guess, but has anyone tried running more lords (Goblin Chieftain and/or Boartusk Liege) in the maindeck or sideboard to help combat this and how has it panned out for them?

[liamb]

Also, it might be prudent to start talking about plans against Engineered Plague again. The deck has placed well in three consecutive large tournaments so I don't think such an obvious houser will remain ignored for long. Krosan Grip is the norm for the green splash I guess, but has anyone tried running more lords (Goblin Chieftain and/or Boartusk Liege) in the maindeck or sideboard to help combat this and how has it panned out for them?

I remember one game when my goblins survived reanimated Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (it's like instant double plague). If you go back couple pages check scaman-x winstigator list (4x Goblin Chieftain). I even have tailored it for burn-heavy meta by adding Boartusk Liege (against Volcanic Fallout), and some numbers of Chalice of the Void and Zuran Orb. You can also try a pair of Mogg Flunkies (an oldschool idea against BUG landstill).

[BigBopper]

I think you are jumping to conclusions here.
The fact that Wizards has pinted a twinbrother for Lord of Atlantis does not mean that players will actually pick up the deck again. Merfolk didn't disappear because a lack of good lordcreatures - so I don't think that Master of Pearl Trident will make fish a viable choice again. I highly doubt that "Merfolk is on a rise".
Plus, I think that people will run SoF&I only if Merfolk will be a real competitor again (which is even more unlikely). So, for now I would not worry about Swords of nastiness, since other (already existing) strategies and builds are very effective against fish, too.

Well, the thing is that 2 Merfolk list did go top 8 at the last SCG and the only maverick list did pack SoFI, so I guess it won't take a while until the blade decks pick this up again.
I also hear some people talk about putting together all kinds of different Merfolk lists starting from the usual ones with Standstill up to builds with MD Chalice and Cavern.

[GoboLord]

@ BigBlopper:
Ok, you might be right. Just keep this possibility of running Tuktuk MD in mind. Artifact in MD is never a really bad idea - I'm just not a huge fan of it.

@ Everyone:


VI. Update notes

July 3rd 2012
* added Mirror Entity and Taurean Mauler to "To-be-tested cards"

[ScatmanX]

How many colourless mana sources do you think this deck can support? I think Rishadan Port is still good enough not to sign off just yet, but I fear that there are times (cycling of gempalms, siege-gang activations and so on) when you really need genuine red mana.
The question you want to ask is "How many R sources is the minimum we can supprt", not the other way around.
Jim Davis played 4 Waste, 4 Port, 4 Caverns, but with 23 lands that proved to be enough. If you run 20-21, those numbers should be tweaked.
Also, it depends on your list, cause there are some with more R requirements than others (like 4 Instigator vs 4 Mogg Warmarchall).

[BigBopper]

The question you want to ask is "How many R sources is the minimum we can supprt", not the other way around.
Jim Davis played 4 Waste, 4 Port, 4 Caverns, but with 23 lands that proved to be enough. If you run 20-21, those numbers should be tweaked.
Also, it depends on your list, cause there are some with more R requirements than others (like 4 Instigator vs 4 Mogg Warmarchall).

I think the answer is 11-13 depending on your list, just as you said (WI/MWM and stuff). I've been running a list without WI but including MWM and took 11 red sources just as jim davis. But inspite I only ran 22 lands (3 Ports), but I saw lists performing well with 21 lands (2 Ports, 11 red sources). So Ports seem just like additional mana denial, which you could substitute by a goblin, if you play more aggressive. So you can simply change your playstile by the manabase.
I guess builds with WI and Kiki-Jiki need more red.

[jrw1985]

How many colourless mana sources do you think this deck can support? I think Rishadan Port is still good enough not to sign off just yet, but I fear that there are times (cycling of gempalms, siege-gang activations and so on) when you really need genuine red mana.

This entirely depends on your build and your curve. I've been leaning toward a build with 20 Lands, 4 Waste, 16 Red Source. But, I've been running a lower curve, more cheaters, and free spells MD to offset the low land count. And I Don't run MWM. If you run MWM, you'll need more lands. That dude gets expensive.

You can run 8 waste/port on 22-23 lands. 23 probably for a Rx buils, 22 for MonoR.

The deck that Top-8'd at Atlanta ran 0 colorless sources. Instead they maindecked Thalia as their mana-denial component. Very sneaky. I must admit, I was kinda aghast when I saw that, but it quickly sank in that Thalia performs the same role as Wasteland and Port, only it does it while providing a body on the field. I can't really take that much issue with running Thalia. That deck still had 31 Goblin cards MD. I liked it.


Also, it might be prudent to start talking about plans against Engineered Plague again. The deck has placed well in three consecutive large tournaments so I don't think such an obvious houser will remain ignored for long. Krosan Grip is the norm for the green splash I guess, but has anyone tried running more lords (Goblin Chieftain and/or Boartusk Liege) in the maindeck or sideboard to help combat this and how has it panned out for them?

I don't think Goblins is enough of a presence for Plague to become a problem now. But Chieftain and Green splash will help tremendously if it's a problem in your meta. I still enjoy casting Reverent Silence every now and then, too.

[Vacrix]

Yea you are probably right, with Merfolk becoming more popular the third piledriver should get better too so that is what I will be cutting it for.
Agreed. Also, Snapcasters and Delver's can't chump it when you're playing against Tempo.

[BigBopper]

And I Don't run MWM. If you run MWM, you'll need more lands. That dude gets expensive.


Why do you think that guy is expensive?
I mean 90% of the time you don't pay the echo cost, since you got something better to do with your mana, but still you get a second body. Most of the time you can even use his ability positively, like chump blocking, or with skirk prosecter or for sharpshooter. In case you have Warchief it cost you only R and with prospecter in addition you can turn him into a mogg ritual.
I really like him as a 1-2 of-so I guess WI for RR is more expensive...?

[raindrainxi]

Hello everyone,

After about a year off I'm finally trying to join a tournament on Sunday. The Meta here is very Combo heavy, and the inevitable Stoneblade, RUG delver and the occasional dredge player.

My current decklist is:

4 Lackey
4 Ringleader
4 Matron
3 Piledriver
3 Winstigator
3 Warchief
3 Chieftain
3 SGC
2 MWM
1 Stingscourger

4 Vials
3 Gempalms
2 Tarfire

16 Mountains
4 Wastes
2 Caverns (to be added)

My problem is my sideboard. As I've said haven't been able to play as much so its stuck at:

4 Tormods
4 Chalice of the Void / Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pyrokinesis
2 REB
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Sharpshooter

Are the tarfires enough for Stoneblade? or should I opt for Mogg Fans? Also, I think my SB is a little dated so help on this would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[liamb]

Hello everyone,

After about a year off I'm finally trying to join a tournament on Sunday. The Meta here is very Combo heavy, and the inevitable Stoneblade, RUG delver and the occasional dredge player.

My current decklist is:

4 Lackey
4 Ringleader
4 Matron
3 Piledriver
3 Winstigator
3 Warchief
3 Chieftain
3 SGC
2 MWM
1 Stingscourger

4 Vials
3 Gempalms
2 Tarfire

16 Mountains
4 Wastes
2 Caverns (to be added)

My problem is my sideboard. As I've said haven't been able to play as much so its stuck at:

4 Tormods
4 Chalice of the Void / Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pyrokinesis
2 REB
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Sharpshooter

Are the tarfires enough for Stoneblade? or should I opt for Mogg Fans? Also, I think my SB is a little dated so help on this would be appreciated.

Thanks!

If by combo you meant storm/doomsday your sideboard plan looks ok. But if you meant grisle decks I definitely would try additional Stingscourger in the sideboard.

Also against stoneforge decks you should add tuktuk or tin street if you willing to splash.

And I don’t like 4 crypts here. You should run relics because it is very good against both dredge and rug.

So maybe:

Maindeck changes: -1 SGC, +1 tuktuk

Sideboard changes for Grisle-heavy meta: - 4 Tormods, -4 Chalice of the Void / Thorn of Amethyst, - 1 Boartusk Liege; + 3 relics, +2 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 tuktuk (or tin), +1 stingscourger, +2 REB

Sideboard changes for storm heavy meta: - 4 Tormods, - 1 Boartusk Liege; +4 relics, +1tuktuk (or tin)

[jrw1985]

I think I'm getting worse at Magic.

I don't know if any of you have felt the same way, but I think that as I've grown more comfortable with tournament play I've started thinking less, paying less attention, and not taking the time to make the right plays. I need to slow the fuck down. I've been having really mediocre results lately, and I think a lot of it is attributable to me just not playing smart.

I guess the other problem is that I don't play nearly enough. I only play in one weekly tournament, and aside from that I don't have friends that play anymore, so I don't really get to test or practice. That's part of why I've enjoyed posting and reading on the Source so much. For those of us that don't get to spend as much time playing as we'd like it's an invaluable resource.

There needs to be a Magic-playing guardian angel I can hire to stand on my shoulder and whisper in my ear, "Don't be Greedy," when I feel the urge to dump my hand into a Pyroclasm. I've been making super greedy plays that are just uncalled for. Greedy plays AND greedy sideboarding choices.

On a slightly different note, I tried out the GP list with the MD Thalia last night. Thalia was OK. If you're going to run her, I think you can run Wasteland too. I missed running Wasteland more than I liked running Thalia, if that makes any sense.

[Julian23]

Name 3 cards that you hate to see out of a UW Miracle deck. I'm trying to improve my sb against those little green men, which are my currently worst matchup.

Appreciate the input, thanks!

[from Cairo]

Name 3 cards that you hate to see out of a UW Miracle deck. I'm trying to improve my sb against those little green men, which are my currently worst matchup.

Appreciate the input, thanks!

Terminus (w/ Top for Instant speed), Swords to Plowshares (w/ Snapcaster), Umezawa's Jitte if running SFM or even worse with Squadron Hawk.

Force of Will can be obnoxious, but with Cavern now in addition to Vial and Lackey resolving stuff has become even less of an issue.

If you're forgoing Stonforge Mystic and Snapcaster, going straight Miracles, + Humility.

[woodjt5]

Name 3 cards that you hate to see out of a UW Miracle deck. I'm trying to improve my sb against those little green men, which are my currently worst matchup.

Appreciate the input, thanks!

Terminus, Terminus, Terminus

[ScatmanX]

Name 3 cards that you hate to see out of a UW Miracle deck. I'm trying to improve my sb against those little green men, which are my currently worst matchup.

Appreciate the input, thanks!
I'd run Thorn of Amethyst.
Makes their cantrip/miracles/100% of their deck a lot worse. Also good against SnT.
Other than that, Pithing Needle.
Top is their best card, 2nd by Jace, and Needle locks both.
Earwig Squad can be nice too. Removing 50% of their win-cons, or getting rid of Terminus must be great.
Wouldn't bring in ReB against them I guess... The cards that scare you more are white...

If you're feeling extremely lucky, you can run Boggart Forager, leave Vial @1, and when they flip Top, you respond by Vialing it and cracking it! (and the crowd goes insaaaaaaaane!) =D

Edit: Fuck, answered the question backwards...

In UW, I hate to play against Entreat the Angels. fuck Terminus. If you play 1 Entreat at 5 mana, we're through. Even 1@4 mana, then 1@5 later fucks us. Play 3-4 of that shit.

Edit2: Oh! and Needle or Explosives. The game is way worse for us without and active Vial...

[Julian23]

While Terminus is great at clearing the board, it never felt like the definite gameplan it is in other aggro matchups. Hitting 2-3 Goblins in play is great but unless your opponent decided to unload his hand asap, there still be 2-3 more Goblins coming down the next turn. Most of the even creating card advantage.

Therefore I'm looking something complementary to Terminus. Right now it's Humility but it feels pretty slow and is just a 3-of.

[jrw1985]

While Terminus is great at clearing the board, it never felt like the definite gameplan it is in other aggro matchups. Hitting 2-3 Goblins in play is great but unless your opponent decided to unload his hand asap, there still be 2-3 more Goblins coming down the next turn. Most of the even creating card advantage.

Therefore I'm looking something complementary to Terminus. Right now it's Humility but it feels pretty slow and is just a 3-of.

If you're running Humility what would your win con be? Jace and/or equipment?

[Julian23]

Card advantage. Jace, Counterbalance. Also each x you pay for Entreat the Angels after you land Humility is also worth a card, basically. I'm also sporting 1 Vedalken Shackles right now which however isn't primarily meant for Goblins after all.

Still Humility alone ain't gonna cut it. Therefore I'm looking to improve the Goblin matchup beyond temporarily cleaning the board with Terminus. I don't wanna steal your time, just some cards you hate seeing out of UW Miracle.

[Ace/Homebrew]

@Julian - Jitte sucks to play against for Goblins. Chances are a goblin player would side OUT artifact removal against you games 2 and 3... Unless your running SFM.

@jrw - Hang in there bro! I appreciate your weekly posts cause I get to play tournament Legacy only once every few months... Last time I played was a pathetic 0-3 but each round was determined by a close 3rd match. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you.

On topic... I'm excited for Krenko! It is literally the only card from the new set I am buying. I'm also looking forward to RTR. No goblin lord in M13 tells me we're getting some playable toys in the new block.

[jrw1985]

@jrw - Hang in there bro! I appreciate your weekly posts cause I get to play tournament Legacy only once every few months... Last time I played was a pathetic 0-3 but each round was determined by a close 3rd match. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you.

Much appreciated. GoboLord was kind enough to PM me some encouraging words as well, and I think they paid off. I played in a small tourney yesterday and went 4-0! The players that were there were solid players that I've seen around the local scene a bunch, so it was a really fun tourney that went nice and quickly too.

For my MD I decided to (once again) run the MD that top-8'd the last GP. AKA the one with Thalias. I wasn't going to have Drakes in the SB though, so I cut the Volcanic for another Plateau. In playing with the deck previously I had really really missed having Wasteland, so I cut 2 fetches and 2 Mountains for a playset of Wastelands. It was the right decision.

R1 Bant natural Order
G1 I'm on the draw and mull to 5 then get killed by a protection from everything hydra. It felt like 2010 again. Back then I would have had Weirdings to answer ProG, but not these days. I side in an Anarchy and move on to game 2.
G2 I keep my 7 but my opponent mulls to 4. I open on a Lackey and have a Waste for the Tabernacle he Crop Rotations for. W.
G3 We both keep our 7s. I land a T2 Thalia. He gets Tabernacle again. I manage to beat him down with a Warchief and Fanatic while Vial ticks up, and I let Thalia die. When Vial hits 5 my opponent is at 5 life. I have 4 lands in play. I sac the Fanatic to put him at 4, let the Warchief die, and vial in SGC, sac 2 tokens, and win. Someone asked me why I didn't pay to keep the Warchief around. I don't know if that was something I had considered or not. Either way would have been lethal, but I guess going the combat route might have left me susceptible to spot removal. Or I just noticed that I could kill him with SGC and my brain locked onto that line of play. Either way, I took the W.
1-0

R2 BW Affinity
This one also went to 3 games. I basically used Wastelands and spot removal to keep him from getting too much synergy going. Fanatic, Gempalm, and Pyrikinesis did a lot of work here.
2-0

R3 Ian Ellis playing the GWB/Junk/Dark Horizons deck that he won SCG Madison with.
G1 We both roll Snake Eyes as we're deciding who goes first. Then we both roll 1s. Ian finally wins the third roll and we both mull to 5. Ian's 5 is great and I quickly lose to a double Liliana and Stoneforge Mystic and Jitte.
G2 I lead with Lackey, he leads with Maze of Ith. I have the Wasteland, and we're off to game 3.
G3 Ian leads with a fetch that he doesn't crack. I lead with Lackey. He plays another Fetch and passes. I play a land and attack with Lackey. He fetches up a Dryad Arbor. i Gempalm it before blocks and drop a Warchief into play (I may have forgotten to draw off Gempalm, I wasn't sure). He plays a Timely Reinforcements. I Matron for a Sharpshooter. He scoops em up shortly thereafter.
3-0

R4 Goblin Mirror Match!!!
G1 My opponent is playing the Wasteland-less version of the GP Top-8ing deck. I'm on the draw and keep a hand that had either Lackey or T1 removal to defend against a Lackey from him. I don't remember the specifics but I win this one.
G2 I sided out all the Thalias for my SB goblins and a Sulfer Elemental. I lost this one to Pyrokinesis and Goblin King. He also Surgical Extractioned my Lackeys, which I thought was a pretty underwhelming SB choice. It seems to me that the mirror match will be won by whoever gets the most creatures in play. Therefor, I want the most creatures in my deck, not a card that gets rid of creatures in my opponent's deck.
G3 This time the King comes down on my side. W
4-0

In the mirror it worked well to sandbag Pyrokinesis for as long as possible. Blowing up Vials with Tuktuk worked pretty well too. My opponent Matroned for Gempalms, Sharpshooter, and SGC over the course of our match. I generally just Matroned for Ringleaders, trying to just have more cards than him at all times. I think it was a solid strategy.

Anyway, going 4-0 felt awesome after my recent string of disappointments. It was a super fun tournament and I just enjoyed the crap outta it. It was one of those days where things kinda fell together, and it all worked out.

[L10]

Nice report jrw. Don't be discouraged from playing the game. Sometimes, you just need a break from the game.

I have also been testing the Thalia list, but with three Magus of the Moons and four Wastelands. I feel Magus of the Moon does what Thalia does but better against decks with greedy mana bases, but useless against mono-color decks. Magus of the Moon also synergies well with the Goblin King singleton. Thalia is great against storm decks @ turn 2 I guess but storm decks are irrelevant at my meta.

My friends and I had actually been discussing about a Winstigator list. I think for a Winstigator list, we can get rid of Goblin Warchief and just rely on cheat abilities via Lacky and Winstigator. For haste, we have Goblin Chieftain, though not necessary. Also, because we want to rely on cheats rather than hard cast, I want a ton of removals. Around 10 maybe? I was thinking four Gempalms, two Stingscourgers, and four Lightning Bolts. I don't know yet.

Lastly, I have been going to some local events, but I normally don't remember what goes on. How do you guys normally keep track of your tournament logs? A notebook?

[jrw1985]

Lastly, I have been going to some local events, but I normally don't remember what goes on. How do you guys normally keep track of your tournament logs? A notebook?

Pocket sized spiral notepad. Then I just write down the life totals as they change, which is really helpful for recounting the events of a game. The last time I played I had a game where I was able to do exactly 5 damage to win the game. After dealing 5 damage my opponent said he was at 6 life, not 5. I was able to recount for him the damage he took at every point during the game and from what sources. I was correct, he had been at 5 life, not 6, and I won the game.

To keep track of what happened in a match I will also write notes under the games' life totals to remind me of how the match played out. I'll usually only do this if I have time between rounds.

[from Cairo]

I feel Magus of the Moon does what Thalia does but better against decks with greedy mana bases, but useless against mono-color decks. Magus of the Moon also synergies well with the Goblin King singleton. Thalia is great against storm decks @ turn 2 I guess but storm decks are irrelevant at my meta.

I guess your meta could be way off from Source DTBs/SCG circuit, but looking at the trending decks of the past couple months, Magus of the Moon doesn't strike me as where the deck wants to be.

I don't think Magus of the Moon really targets the same archetypes as Thalia. Most top tier archetypes have mana bases set up with fetches and basics. Mana disruption isn't exactly unexpected when playing against goblins, so the opponent should know to manage their resources around Wasteland, which will play around Magus as well. Goblins doesn't have the advantage of Dragon Stompy where they can jam turn 1 Moon on the play and strand opening 7 fetches as Mountains.

Just considering major DTBs - RUG's burn is still online under Moon, it either doesn't care or kills the Magus as needed; Maverick plays basics and Noble/GSZ means they can get by off basic Forest; Reanimator has basics and often can execute their game plan before turn 3 anyway; UW Blade/Miracles is running 5+ basics; Elves runs out basics and will be going off the turn Magus drops, guess it blanks Gaea's Cradle, but seems lacking at CMC 3; Sneak and Show can support their own Moons; Dredge and Storm mostly ignore Moon.

Magus of the Moon seems good against BUG decks if that's a thing in your meta otherwise it strikes me as slow and too low impact in the current meta.

Thalia is actually complemented by Wasteland, unlike Magus that has no synergy. And the tax effect has application against all of the combo and control archetypes mentioned above, while coming online a turn earlier and being attached to a marginally better body. I'm not really sold that Thalia is where this deck wants to be right now, but she strikes me as a better non-Goblin beater than Magis of the Moon in the current metagame.

[GoboLord]

Pocket sized spiral notepad. Then I just write down the life totals as they change, which is really helpful for recounting the events of a game. The last time I played I had a game where I was able to do exactly 5 damage to win the game. After dealing 5 damage my opponent said he was at 6 life, not 5. I was able to recount for him the damage he took at every point during the game and from what sources. I was correct, he had been at 5 life, not 6, and I won the game.

To keep track of what happened in a match I will also write notes under the games' life totals to remind me of how the match played out. I'll usually only do this if I have time between rounds.

I do it very much the same way, only that I also write down the "cause" of life totals change. I write letters next to the lifetotals that help me remind the course of the game:

F = fetchland
A = Attack
A² = Attack with 2 creatures
A³ = Attack with 3 creatures
SGC = Siege-Gang Commander's ability
Tom = Ancien Tomb
City = City of Brass
Bob = Dark Confidant
LB = Lightning Bolt
Stop = Swords to Plowshares

I can really recommend this way of taking noites, since this makes your notes very trustworthy to judges when you need it (like in the situation Jon described). Its only very few differen symbols that cover many of the common causes for lifeloss and -gain.

[L10]

Thanks Gobolord and jwr. I will try to take notes next time. This will probably help me learn matchups with concrete notes. I am going to a tourney on on Wednesday, so I will see how it goes.

from Cairo,

My meta does have a lot of the DtB decks, but you do make a lot of good points. Oddly enough, even though I play goblins, many people do not go for basics until they get one or two dual lands online; namely RUG, Team America, and Esper Blade. Maverick do go straight for basics.

Magus simply destroys Team America, as they almost never have basic lands, iirc. I can almost say the same for Esper Blade. They may fetch for an island early on to go around Wasteland, but if my Magus gets online quick enough, it can really slow them down if they can't get get a Plain for StP or Swamp for Vindicate. It also slows them down to get Jace online, which is always a plus. Magus is bad against RUG, but if they do not expect Magus, they may not fetch for basics early on. If they don't, I just have to worry about Lightning Bolt, and sometimes Grim Lavamancer, though I can easily answer Grim Lavamancer.

I do think Magus is decent (sometimes strong) in round one as a surprise. But for round two, I just side them out for proper answers, unless it's Team America. There are no Reanimator or Storms in my meta, I don't think, so they are irrelevant.

The first/last time I played with Magus, I played against Team America, The Rock, UWbr Blade, and Mono White Control. I think Magus did pretty well against the first three pre-board. My deck completely failed against the Mono White Control because he managed to get Ghostly Prison, Magus of the Tabernacle, and Suppression Field early on both games, and I didn't have Anarchy in my SB as an answer. :/

I do agree that Thalia and Magus fundamentally does different things, and Thalia may be better if you are willing to slash, but it does make your mana source more vulnerable. I am not sure if I am okay with that. I also do not have Plateaus to try Thalia out myself, so I can't comment on it.

[fimo]

For my MD I decided to (once again) run the MD that top-8'd the last GP. AKA the one with Thalias. I wasn't going to have Drakes in the SB though, so I cut the Volcanic for another Plateau. In playing with the deck previously I had really really missed having Wasteland, so I cut 2 fetches and 2 Mountains for a playset of Wastelands. It was the right decision.

I am testing Thalias as well and they are working out pretty well for me. It is a must answer for many decks, especially the ones we are weakiest against and that s fabulous. They actually do something in every MU. Against aggro it is nice to force them to spend 1 more for their removal, slowing down their clock. I guess we are the deck that runs the lowest non-creature count so thalia fits really good. I am testing with only 4 non creature cards MD (aether vial) and it is working well. I suggest you to try them out. Splashing is not an issue as long as the cards you put in have legs. We run 4 aether vial and 4 cavern of souls anyway, adding fetches and dual-lands makes thalia easy to cast. Also, I really dont get what is all this worry about opponent wastelands... since the printing of cavern of souls wastelands can hit monoR goblins manabases anyway...
I am also testing 2-3 mother of runes (human) alongside thalias (human) in the white splash. They are pretty sweet (thank you cavern of souls!). Protection is an awsome ability in this deck allowing you to:
- hit with lackey/piledriver/WI when u have a goyf/knight/huge-guy on the other side of the board
- nullify opponent's spot removal
- prevent opponent's jitte from getting counters (awsome)
- chump blocking forever a 10/10 knight of the reliquary

I do feel that white splash (with legs) has great potential because it can answer ALL threats that are harsh to us. I havent found the right numbers tho, however, I encourage you to give it a try.

[raindrainxi]

If by combo you meant storm/doomsday your sideboard plan looks ok. But if you meant grisle decks I definitely would try additional Stingscourger in the sideboard.

Also against stoneforge decks you should add tuktuk or tin street if you willing to splash.

And I don’t like 4 crypts here. You should run relics because it is very good against both dredge and rug.

So maybe:

Maindeck changes: -1 SGC, +1 tuktuk

Sideboard changes for Grisle-heavy meta: - 4 Tormods, -4 Chalice of the Void / Thorn of Amethyst, - 1 Boartusk Liege; + 3 relics, +2 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 tuktuk (or tin), +1 stingscourger, +2 REB

Sideboard changes for storm heavy meta: - 4 Tormods, - 1 Boartusk Liege; +4 relics, +1tuktuk (or tin)

Thanks for that. My only problem with your suggestion is that Animators and TES/ANT have approximately the same presence, so I could not completely remove the CotVs to make way for additional Cages.

On a side question, how many do you guys think is the appropriate number of Caverns? I tried 2, and it was alright, from satisfactory to good. I found that I never needed more than 1 on the field since it leaves me open to wasteland and the occasional Price of Progress, although I sometimes feel I don't see it enough in my hand.

[mrblueduck]

Just a question out of left field, but has anyone tried Ghost Quarter in there goblin list, I am thinking around 2 copies. My thoughts being :
A) RUG Delver is the best deck in the format. Running essentially 6 wastelands against them with no basics to grab is very big.
B) The same reason I think Price of Progress is bad, I think Ghost Quarter could be fine. Most decks will grab there only basics to play around wasteland, and would be very surprised running into Ghost Quarter.
C) Can deal with Pendelhaven, Maze, and Chasms like Wasteland 5-6. Who cares if they grab there basics because dealing with these lands is everything.
D) Good against Land Tax !!

I think Tec edge is quite bad (in legacy) so lets not compare it to that. Any yes, I think Ghost Quarter may be better then Ports. Who knows, any thoughts would be great.

[ScatmanX]

Just a question out of left field, but has anyone tried Ghost Quarter in there goblin list, I am thinking around 2 copies. My thoughts being :
A) RUG Delver is the best deck in the format. Running essentially 6 wastelands against them with no basics to grab is very big.
B) The same reason I think Price of Progress is bad, I think Ghost Quarter could be fine. Most decks will grab there only basics to play around wasteland, and would be very surprised running into Ghost Quarter.
C) Can deal with Pendelhaven, Maze, and Chasms like Wasteland 5-6. Who cares if they grab there basics because dealing with these lands is everything.
D) Good against Land Tax !!

I think Tec edge is quite bad (in legacy) so lets not compare it to that. Any yes, I think Ghost Quarter may be better then Ports. Who knows, any thoughts would be great.
Rishadan Port looks better in almost every situation, and locks basic lands too, which is awesome sometimes.

[Steamflogger]

Has anyone tried Ghost Quarter in the goblin list?

As I began playing Goblins I wasn't able to provide the money for Ports and Wastelands right away. So I looked up alternatives and found Dust Bowl (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/316.html), Tectonic Edge (http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/145.html) and Ghost Quarter (http://magiccards.info/isd/en/240.html). Pondering about those and asking in the German mtg-forum brought me to the point where none of them is relevant as for the mana-denial plan. The first two are way too slow while Ghost Quarter (http://magiccards.info/isd/en/240.html) fetches up an untapped basic land. But as for dealing with utility lands Ghost Quarter (http://magiccards.info/isd/en/240.html) really is an option. That's why I took the playset and 17 mountains to my first tournaments where they did pretty decent in dealing with Maze of Ith (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/114.html), The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/252.html) and Grove of the Burnwillows (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/176.html). For Goblin starters with money issues I would always recommend the quarters. Perhaps this could be primer advice material.
But since I got my ports and can borrow the wastes I never went back to the quarters nor thought about combining wastes and quarters. You could run them instead of ports but there is the above mentioned downside of quarters that in most cases you won't know your opponents list -> if they are able to fetch up basics.
They could be interesting for R/x builds... Quartering (and wasting) opposing Wastelands (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/340.html) before you fetch up your own duals. Oh and even as an additional fetchland that 2for1s up your splash colour if you really need it. Not so much for this weird R/W Thalia build though, where you want her on t2 to fight combo. But it seems interesting for any R/G or R/B build. That's something I'd like to see tested.
But since Ghost Quarter (http://magiccards.info/isd/en/240.html) competes with Rishadan Port (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/324.html) we'd have to relinquish ports considerable benefits (that make me keep it as a 2off):
+ Its true manadenial wins games. Even more with an active vial.
+ When you build up arround those two tapped lands you can use both for the alpha strike while quarters, once used, are gone.
+ Port can be a small advantage against dredge or any other deck with City of Brass (http://magiccards.info/an/en/85.html).
Downsides are:
- It does not affect every utility land (The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/252.html), Grove of the Burnwillows (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/176.html) etc.).
- There has to be another land to activate port's ability.

To make a point I'd say if you sport a monored list, you should definitely go for ports. But as I said, I'd like see a R/x build test 2 quarters instead of two ports.

Edit: Splashing with basics so quarter can be a fetchland is not the greatest trick to do. But never mind, I had my happy 2 minutes.

[jrw1985]

@Ghost Quarter

Realize this: If you run 4 Waste and 4 Quarter, play and activate all of them, you will have destroyed 8 of your own lands and only 4 of your opponent's.

Port sees play over Ghost because you can use Port to deny their mana. When denying their mana is no longer effective you can use Port to cast your own spells. Ghost doesn't provide that versatility.

[L10]

So I just got back from a 28 man tournament. I thought it was Wednesday but got the date wrong. I took a notebook with me for notes. I didn't know the meta and decided to go with the SB similar to Jim Davis's. Here is the list I went with:

// Lands [20]:
12 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

// Core [21]:
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander

// Others [19]:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Arms Dealer

// Sideboard
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Boartusk Liege
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus

Match 1 - RUG Delver Tempo
Game 1 - He leads with Nimble Mongoose. I played Vial. He swung me a couple times with a 1/1 Nimble, but eventually got it to 3/3 and with two 3/2 Delvers. He broght me down to 9 as I was trying to build my army of tokens. I drew a Gempalm and burned the Delver. It got me a Ringleader. Played Ringleader, which got my a Warchief, Arms Dealer, and Piledriver. He passed his turn and vialed in Warchief. I drew another Piledriver. Vialed in Arms Dealer and used Arms dealer on Delver. I played both Piledrivers and swung with everyone (Warchief, Arms Dealer, two Piledrivers, and a token). He blocks a Piledriver, took 13 damage, and brings him down to 4. He concedes next turn.
Game 2 - He leads with Mongoose. Cavern, Lackey, Go. He plays Lightning Bolt with Taiga, and Wastelands my Cavern of Souls. Swings for 1. I put down Cavern and passed. He swings with Nimble again for 1, and Wastelands my Cavern. No land, passed. He layed a Tundra, swung for one, and played Delver. I drew a Wasteland, layed it down, and passed. He flipped his Delver showing Brainstorm. He Brainstorms, plays a Tundra, and swung with Nimble and Delver for 6, knocking me down to 11. Drew a Vial and played it. He flips his Delver, swung me down to 2, and Bolt me for the finish.
Game 3 - He mulled to four! Cavern, Lackey, Go. He plays a Delver and passed. Gempalm his Delver, attacked with Lackey, cheats in a SGC. He drew and passed his turn. I swung for six, cheat in Warchief, and play a Piledriver and MWM. He lays a Taiga and passed. I played another Piledriver, and swung with everyone. He bolts one of my Piledrivers and scoops.
2-1

Match 2 - Reanimator
Game 1 - Turn two Elesh Norn and I concede.
Game 2 - Cavern, Lackey, Go. He Ponders and passed. I played Relic, swung with Lackey, and cheat in Warchief. He Brainstorms and passed. I played Skirk Prospector, swung, cheat in Gempalm Incinerator. He plays Pithing Needle for my Relic and plays Entomb, and passed. I played Piledriver, and swung for the Alpha Strike.
Game 3 - He plays Needle for calling Relic. I played Grafdigger's Cage and he scoops. He told me he wasn't expecting me to have Cage because he only saw Relic on Game 2. He sided out Echoing truth for Game 3 and does not have Show and Tell as an alternate win-con.
2-1

Match 3 - Merfolk
Game 1 - He mulls to five, and plays a Vial. I had a Cavern, Mountain, and three Piledrivers. I just played my Piledrivers every turn and swung for the win.
Game 2 - He plays Carverns calling Merfolk. Mountain, Lackey, Go. He lays Mutavault and passed. I Wasteland his Mutavault, swung with Lackey, cheat in Matron, and picked up a Piledriver. He plays LoA, which I REBed. I played Piledriver with Caverns, swung, and cheat in MWM. He has nothing and I alpha striked next turn.
2-0
Edit: Got Game 1 and Game 2 flipped.

Match 4 - RWB Blade
Game 1 - Mountain, Lackey, Go. He plays Grim Lavamancer and passes. I Gempalmed with Grim Lavamancer, swung with Lackey, and cheat in Warchief, and play a MWM. He lays a land and passes. I swung with everyone, and he bolts my Lackey. He plays Dark Confidant and passes. I Gempalmed his Dark Confidant, played Piledriver, and swung. He draws a card and concede.
Game 2 - He plays a Engineered Plaque, destroying most of my goblins. It was funny because he had double Dark Confidants, and it almost killed him. We were both at 4 before he finished me off. He shows me his next card: Batterskull. lol
Game 3 - I sided in Boartusk Liege but he steals it with Tidehollow Sculler. He lays down a Engineered Plague, and beat me to death eventually.
1-2

Thoughts: I didn't get to use Thorn except for the one time which is got Spell Snared, which is odd because I have four of them. :/ I sided them out pretty much every time. Though, it may have helped against the RWB Blade in hindsight. I only used Arms Dealer once but thought it was pretty good, especially since I have a ton of tokens most of the time.

Overall, I wished I had Chieftains or another Boartusk Liege against Engineered Plagues. Though I don't really know what to cut. I think the deck works pretty well as is. This place holds weekly tournaments, so I think I going to attend every week.

Sorry, I got lazy towards the end with my report, but I think the less wordy I am, the better. I will record I sideboarded in and out next time.

[SaberTooth]

L10 maybe u can cut the thorns and bring chieftains and maybe a krenko (because it's cute obviously :P)

i want to test him and congrats for all that green punishment XD

[L10]

Oh, M13 cards can be used until this Friday. But yes, I will be using Krenko as soon as I get him. Its board presence is as huge as SGC and can win games when I proxied him against friends.

To be honest, I don't like Chieftains or Boartusk Liege as my solution against Engineered Plagues because they will just get eaten by removals or hand disruption. Maybe if I have like four Chieftains and two Boartusks, which is not bad to be honest. I was planning to test out Chaos Warp again as our pseudo-Krosan Grip. The problem is that our opponent can draw Engineered Plague again, eventually. Or, I can just try to dodge Engineered Plague.

I am planning to run this list next week, assuming I can get Krenko in time:
http://deck.tk/4Sqh7H25
The Kiki-Jiki, Lightning Crafter, and Sharpshooter/Prospector infinite combo sounds hilarious to me. I was only to pull it off once a while back in a tournament environment.

Or this variant with maxed out Chieftains and two Krenkos:
http://deck.tk/169m25df

Thanks for the input.

[orcanmail]

Just a thought,

Are Mogg Flunkies bad?, 2cc 3/3 goblin with a drawback, or are they not played because MWM, Instigators, Stingscourgers and Piledrivers are just better
2cc drops?

Would they be good against E-Plagues?

[jrw1985]

Just a thought,

Are Mogg Flunkies bad?, 2cc 3/3 goblin with a drawback, or are they not played because MWM, Instigators, Stingscourgers and Piledrivers are just better
2cc drops?

Would they be good against E-Plagues?

Wild Nacatl is a 3/3 1-drop without drawbacks and it doesn't see play these days. That's the state of Legacy.

Still, he's a goblin at least, so why not? The reason why not is that he doesn't provide any synergy. He doesn't make other goblins better (Winstigator), other goblins don't make him better (Piledriver), and he doesn't fulfill a utility role.

It you're really worried about E Plague splash White and play Thalia and Disenchant.

[feline]

1 cavern of souls down, 3 to go, I need my next paycheck now!

anyhow, I'm going back to pushing this deck some more once I get ahold of the caverns, I could play it just fine now but I feel like it's not 100% since they printed that card and I've needed to obtain them since.

nothing really new to note other than I'm now maindecking 1 artifact hate goblin as well as having one in the sideboard because of stoneforge mystic's, I'm also sideboarding a stingscourger in addition to maindecking one already because of the increase in "cheat a bomb into play" -reanimator / sneak & show, etc-

[GoboLord]

VI. Update notes

July 12th
* added the following cards to "To-be-tested cards"
Battle Squadron
Fodder Launch
Goblin Pyromancer
Murderous Redcap
Shrieking Mogg



-------------------------------------
On Mogg Flunkies:
I also think that this card is bad. I explain why:

(1) Offensive Ability:
You can directly compare MF to Piley here, since piledriver won't attack without at least 1 other goblin. In this scenario is always 3/2 or 5/2 or 7/2 while Flunkies never exceed the 3/3.
Some people around here still don't run the whole playset of Piledrivers.
So as long there aren't 4 Piledrivers in your deck there is no room for Flunkies

(2) Defensive Ability:
MF is only problematic with at least one other creature next to it. Then again he won't be able to actualy KILL the blocked creature in most cases, since problematic creatures often have toughness 4 or greater (Tarmogoyf, KotR, BatterGerm). Even then we take the risk of having MF removed before the damage step, which robs 3(!) whole points of damage to the blocked creature. MWM is much better as a defensive tool since he too can be 3 dmg in 1 card (not creature). However MWM has the benefit of having synergies with other cards, while MF needs other cards to synergize (is this even a real word?) with him.
So if you don't have 4 MWM in your deck there is no room for MF.

I do not doubt that he can be a cool trick to fight E.Plague, but seriously: any lord is better here.


//EDIT:
Someone stated that FLunkies are an "old-school tool" to fight a certain control deck (P. Deed, if I'm not mistaken). I cant find the posting, but can this guy pls explain HOW and WHY MFs are good there (and thereby save the honor of our poor Flunkies)

[Humphrey]

Battle Squadron is interesting

[GoblinSettler]

I spent a while running Battle Squadron in place of a SGC, but it did not come up often enough to make an impression. That is to say, the situation never called on Matron-ing for it. It never seemed like it would be a good idea to run it as a 4-of in an event.

...

In other news, my Anti-Plague tech: Goblin Caves.

[L10]

GoblinSettler, Goblin Caves sounds like an excellent idea! It's great because we can survive a double E. Plague with one card. I wonder if only having 12 Mountains is good enough to pay the RR. Though I can always use Skirk Prospector for one red mana and a Mountain for the other. How many would you run on the sideboard? Three or four? Thanks for sharing the tech!

I think Arms Dealer should be tested if your list has a ton of cannon fodder like Matron, MWM, and tokens; especially with the printing of Krenko. Arms Dealer can kill a Batterskull, which is not too shabby. I will be testing him more.

[orcanmail]

[QUOTE=GoboLord;657631]VI. Update notes

July 12th
* added the following cards to "To-be-tested cards"
Battle Squadron
Fodder Launch
Goblin Pyromancer
Murderous Redcap
Shrieking Mogg



Ah, the Goblin Pyromancer. I am always tempted by this guy almost more than any other Goblin. He just feels like an alpha strike game winner. Let's all test him out seriously.

[GoboLord]

Ok, talking about powerful cmc4/cmc5 spells how would you like something like this:

Goblin Burning Boy (3RR)
Creature - Goblin
When Goblin Burning Boy enters the battlefield it deals 5 damage to target creature.
2/2

This is hypothetical of course, but how would you like it?

[Hencules]

Ok, talking about powerful cmc4/cmc5 spells how would you like something like this:

Goblin Burning Boy (3RR)
Creature - Goblin
When Goblin Burning Boy enters the battlefield it deals 5 damage to target creature.
2/2

This is hypothetical of course, but how would you like it?

I think it's body is too small. I'd prefer a damage less, but with more power or toughness. Perfect would be a goblin flametongue kavu. However, I would like it very much.

[Humphrey]

Dont take it personally but I dont like how everybody is spamming selfmade cards all over the forum at the moment. Please use the creation thread.

Actually I see 2 cards missing atm. Tuktuk for CC2 and maybe a small Ringleader for 3

[GoboLord]

Dont take it personally but I dont like how everybody is spamming selfmade cards all over the forum at the moment. Please use the creation thread.


I'm with you here. However, I didn't invent that card - it actually exists. However, if somebody suggests to play

Outrage Shaman

it would surely not raise anybody's interest. So, I just wanted to re-write it's oracle text and see if you like it (I didn't lie on what he is doing because he actually WILL deal 5 or more damage in most situations).

[Eatatjoes]

So is Rishadon Port not good in goblins anymore? Anyone have an updated list with Krenko?

[jrw1985]

So is Rishadon Port not good in goblins anymore? Anyone have an updated list with Krenko?

Rishadan Port is still a fine card. A Goblins list with 4 Waste 4 Port just won a SCG 5K about a month ago, and the proof is in the puddin'.

I haven't seen any really Krenko-centric lists yet. Mostly I've just seen standard lists, but with Krenko instead of a SCG.

4 Vial
4 lackey
4 matron
4 Warchief
4 Ringleader
4 Gempalm
4 Piledriver
3 Mogg War marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Prospector
1 Sharpshooter
1 Seige Gang Commander
1 Krenko
2 pyrokinesis

4 Wasteland
4 Port
4 Cavern
10 Mountain

It's a basic goblins list that i just pulled outta my butt, but it's got everything you need. Removal, CA, cheats. MWM, Skirk, Sharp, and Krenko all go together nicely. 22 Lands allows you to play 4Waste 4 Port, and all is good.

[L10]

If you want the list to be more Krenko-centric, you may also want a Chieftain or two for haste. Maybe take Jon's list and replace Pyrokinesis with Chieftains.

I don't think Goblin Cave may be a good solution to Engineered Plague after all. Even if we build up a giant army of tokens, we are left with 0/2 goblins. In this case, we still need lords to boost our guys for them to be meaningful.

[liamb]

[B][SIZE="3"]//EDIT:
Someone stated that FLunkies are an "old-school tool" to fight a certain control deck (P. Deed, if I'm not mistaken). I cant find the posting, but can this guy pls explain HOW and WHY MFs are good there (and thereby save the honor of our poor Flunkies)

It was me :smile: Well I remember that back in the days flunkies was hidden somwhere in the 75s of goblin decks. For example:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=sideboard/pthou02/fm8

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/gpeind05/day1blog

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=1965&iddeck=30871

[orcanmail]

Another goblin i've been thinking about apart from Flunkies and Pyromancer is Vexing Shusher.
With Shushers, Vials and Cavern of Souls, Counter decks would be in for hell versus Goblins.

[GoboLord]

It was me :smile: Well I remember that back in the days flunkies was hidden somwhere in the 75s of goblin decks. For example:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=sideboard/pthou02/fm8

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/gpeind05/day1blog

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=1965&iddeck=30871

I don't want to be pendantic, but 7-8 year old decklist don't quite explain why Mogg Flunkies should be a good choice today. I mean, the were probably integrated because back then they were lacking good cmc2 drops (like Stinger, MWM, Winstigator).

//EDIT: Almost forgot to say thank you for providing those old decklists - I enjoyed the time travel =)

[Tacosnape]

So I'll be the first to say that I think Krenko is better than cute. I think he just flat out wins games, especially with haste being involved. In grindy midrange games, he's capable of making more tokens than the opponents can deal with very quickly. And unlike Kiki-Jiki, I think he's strong enough in almost any and every situation to warrant playing, and there ARE times I'd rather see him than Siege-Gang Commander. And if left unanswered, he's the biggest Goblin threat in existence at only 4 mana. I'm running one, and am about to start playing around with a pair of them.

Also, while trolling around with Krenko, this happened:

My hand, going second: Mountain, Cavern, Vial, Krenko, SGC, Chieftain, Piledriver.

Opponent: Tundra, ESG, ESG, Shardless Agent into Hypergenesis.

He drops Warstorm Surge/Emrakul and puts me to 3. I Drop both land, Krenko, SGC, Chieftain, Driver. I EOT make seven dudes, untap, draw a land, make 14 more dudes, and swing with 24 2/2 tokens, a Chieftain, a Siege-Gang, and a 53/2 Piledriver.

[jrw1985]

So I'll be the first to say that I think Krenko is better than cute. I think he just flat out wins games, especially with haste being involved. In grindy midrange games, he's capable of making more tokens than the opponents can deal with very quickly. And unlike Kiki-Jiki, I think he's strong enough in almost any and every situation to warrant playing, and there ARE times I'd rather see him than Siege-Gang Commander. And if left unanswered, he's the biggest Goblin threat in existence at only 4 mana. I'm running one, and am about to start playing around with a pair of them.

Also, while trolling around with Krenko, this happened:

My hand, going second: Mountain, Cavern, Vial, Krenko, SGC, Chieftain, Piledriver.

Opponent: Tundra, ESG, ESG, Shardless Agent into Hypergenesis.

He drops Warstorm Surge/Emrakul and puts me to 3. I Drop both land, Krenko, SGC, Chieftain, Driver. I EOT make seven dudes, untap, draw a land, make 14 more dudes, and swing with 24 2/2 tokens, a Chieftain, a Siege-Gang, and a 53/2 Piledriver.

Oh, that is just adorable! Krenko is toooo cute.
I can't wait to get my playset from SCG. I'll probably never use all 4, but I can easily see playing 2 in the 75.

[ScatmanX]

I'm at 2 here too... he's awesome.

Edit: to quote myself:

Krenko, on the other hand, is proving to be awesome. My count is @2 too. 1 activation from it will win you the game against fair decks.
Don't know if that is enough reason to run 2, but he is so fun. Is like adding a (another) minigame to the deck. If your opponent can't answer it, he'll lose.

[Davran]

What is everyone running Krenko over? Removal? Winstigators? I'm having trouble finding space for him in the deck...

[Ace/Homebrew]

I moved Tuktuk Scrapper into the board to fit in Krenko.

[GoboLord]

So I'll be the first to say that I think Krenko is better than cute.

Not even close, dude.

@ Marcello and Jon:
I found a pair of Krenko in my mailbox today!
Your oppinions on Krenko made me want to integrate him in my current decklist, which looks as follows:

//Mana [21]
4 Wastes
2 Ports
4 Caverns
11 Mountains

//Core [22]
...

//Others [17]
4 Piledriver
3 MWM
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Gempalms
2 Stinger
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember

Let me explain my problem:
It's difficult for me to make room for more than 1 Krenko. However, I want to have 2 copies in my MD in order to occassionally draw him once in a while. With only 1 copy the odds on drawing one (or netting one with Ringleader) are quite low and (as I view the deck and it's MUs right now) I can't imagine to tutor him with Matron too often. So there must be two copies.
The questions is: what should I cut?
Currently I'm running 9 spotremoval. I've explained elsewhere in this thread why 9 is a good number, but in order to squeeze Krenko in, I could cut my spotremoval down to 8 (thereby kicking 1 Dismember).
So, only 1 more Krenko who needs a home. What would you cut here?
* Skirk Prospector: he's in the spot of my 22nd land. He's the one that can deal with Jitte. He's the one that synergizes with Krenko (when needed). I won't cut him.
* 4th Piledriver: The more I play the deck the more I wonder how anyone is content with less than 4 Piledrivers. He might be an option but then again I cut a card that synergizes perfectly with Krenko. It feels like digging one hole to fill another.
* 3rd MWM: same shit as with Piley.

Soooo, any suggestions?

[ScatmanX]

Soooo, any suggestions?
Prospector is busted with Krenko. Don't cut him.
I thing you can be fine by running 8 removal, like you said, so there's your 1st one.
The 2nd one there are 3 options:
1 - Piledriver
2 - MWM
3 - SGC.
If it is just for testing purpose, then you can cut any of those, just to see how Krenko play out.
Then, if you REALLY want to keep playing 2, you try to decide (after the testings), which one sinergizes more poorly with him.
If I were you, knowing that you like Piledrivers and MWM that much, I'd try to get by with just 1 SGC, and start testing from there.

[L10]

Cutting one Dismember for Krenko sounds good. For the second Krenko, you can cut the second Dismember, or maybe even one SGC. Cutting a SGC may be an option because having too many high CMC cards in the early game may be dead draws. And with the second Krenko, leaving Vial @ 4 has more uses. You can save Vial @ 4 for future Ringleaders or a second Krenko if he died. The issue is that only having 1 SGC means that you probably won't draw it and probably won't search for him with Matron either. I would not cut Skirk Prospector, Piledriver, or MWM.

[Final Fortune]

Krenko is pretty fucking bonkers fwiw, I honestly think he's going to replace my SGC's as being the "other" high CC Goblins next to Ringleaders. I'll probably miss the reach at some point, but being 4cc is just so much better than 5cc when you're dropping Krenko off of a Frogtosser or Warchief, 2 feels about right.

[PedroFilipe92]

Been testing Krenko, and thata guy is awesome! He wins games!

My actual decklist:

// Lands
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [TE] Wasteland
13 [ZEN] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
1 [M13] Krenko, Mob Boss

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [LRW] Tarfire

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 2 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [WWK] Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 3 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void

Suggestions?

[ScatmanX]

Krenko is pretty fucking bonkers fwiw, I honestly think he's going to replace my SGC's as being the "other" high CC Goblins next to Ringleaders. I'll probably miss the reach at some point, but being 4cc is just so much better than 5cc when you're dropping Krenko off of a Frogtosser or Warchief, 2 feels about right.
I don't think we can afford to cut SGC entirely. He just win so many random matchups and locked up games, while adding so much versatility. Cut him to 1, bt not to 0.
(but well, I might be wrong, as usual...)

[Amon Amarth]

@Gobolord: I'd cut the last Dismember for Krenko. The idea is that you cut the, arguably, worst piece of removal in your deck for a combo card that will win you the game against fair decks if you can activate it.

[Pee-Dee-2]

Hey guys. Regards from holiday.

So, I found someone to test with and made experiences with Krenko. He is awesome and I'll never play without two of them.

I cut 2 Piledriver because Krenko often does his job better. I also play with 1 Tarfire, 3 Pyrokinesis, 2 Stingscourger and 3 Incinerator.

I also won't cut Prospector or MWM.

For all, who like exercises:

You are goldfishing and on the draw. You can chose the ten cards you want to draw within the first 3 turns. What is the highest amount of damage you can deal in the third turn?

My highest result was 86 so far. Does anyone get more?

[Ace/Homebrew]

My highest result was 86 so far. Does anyone get more?

This was a fun thought experiment. I got 111.

My opening hand:
Chrome Mox, Any non-artifact red card, Mountain, Warren Instigator, Goblin Warchief, Krenko, Mob Boss, and Goblin Chieftain.
Stacked on top of my library would be Skirk Prospector, followed by 2 Goblin Piledrivers.

Turn 1: Draw Prospector, play Mountain. Play Mox, remove random red card. Play WI.
0 damage total

Turn 2: Draw Piley, attack with WI. Drop Warchief, then Krenko. Play Chieftain. Make 4 dudes.
2 damage total

Turn 3: Draw Piley. Play Prospector and 1 Piley. Make 10 dudes. Sac one for R and play 2nd Piley. Attack for 109.
111 damage total

[L10]

Opening hand: Cavern, Chrome Mox, Instigator, Krenko, Warchief, Piledriver, Piledriver

Turn 1:
- Draw Random Goblin
- Play Cavern and Chrome Mox with Random Goblin
- Play Instigator
Damage = 0

Turn 2:
- Draw Piledriver
- Attack with Instigator
- Cheat in Krenko and Warchief
- Play Two Piledrivers
- Tap Krenko for 5 Tokens
Damage = 2

Turn 3:
- Draw Piledriver
- Play Two Piledrivers
- Tap Krenko for 12 Tokens
- Attack with Instigator, Warchief, 4 Piledrivers, and 17 Tokens
Damage = 201

Grand Total = 203

[BigBopper]

//Mana [21]
4 Wastes
2 Ports
4 Caverns
11 Mountains

//Core [22]
...

//Others [17]
4 Piledriver
3 MWM
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Gempalms
2 Stinger
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember

Let me explain my problem:
It's difficult for me to make room for more than 1 Krenko. However, I want to have 2 copies in my MD in order to occassionally draw him once in a while. With only 1 copy the odds on drawing one (or netting one with Ringleader) are quite low and (as I view the deck and it's MUs right now) I can't imagine to tutor him with Matron too often. So there must be two copies.
The questions is: what should I cut?
Currently I'm running 9 spotremoval. I've explained elsewhere in this thread why 9 is a good number, but in order to squeeze Krenko in, I could cut my spotremoval down to 8 (thereby kicking 1 Dismember).
So, only 1 more Krenko who needs a home. What would you cut here?
* Skirk Prospector: he's in the spot of my 22nd land. He's the one that can deal with Jitte. He's the one that synergizes with Krenko (when needed). I won't cut him.
* 4th Piledriver: The more I play the deck the more I wonder how anyone is content with less than 4 Piledrivers. He might be an option but then again I cut a card that synergizes perfectly with Krenko. It feels like digging one hole to fill another.
* 3rd MWM: same shit as with Piley.

Soooo, any suggestions?

I like your list a lot, except for the removal part. I totally support 9 pieces of removal, but would prefer it to be goblin shaped, since we can. Why don't you play sharpshooter, with Prospector and MWM? I'd also add a Chieftain for all these tokens.
I haven't tested Krenko yet and would start out as a 1-off, since he's legendary and tutorable. I mean this is the big advantage of a matron: it can always provide you what the situation affords and if it's a Prospector I'd take him right away. So usually half of your deck is available.
What about:

Manabase (21):
4x Cavern
4x Waste
2x Port
11x Mountain

Core (21):
-1x SGC

Flex (18):
3x Piledriver
2x MWM
1x Prospector
1x Chieftain
1x Sharpshooter
1x Krenko

3x Incinerator
2x Stinger
2x Fanatic
1x Tarfire
1x Pyrokinesis

If I'd fit another Krenko in there I'd probably cut the Pyrokinesis. And if I don't see any use for tarfire anymore I'd play a 4th Incinerator over it any day-since it is the best removal available. Especially with Krenko he can campete with dismember all day long.

[BigBopper]

For all, who like exercises:

You are goldfishing and on the draw. You can chose the ten cards you want to draw within the first 3 turns. What is the highest amount of damage you can deal in the third turn?

My highest result was 86 so far. Does anyone get more?

How about on the play:
Turn 1: Mountain, Go
Turn 2: Mountain, Warren Instigator, Go
Turn 3: Attack--> Kikki-Jikki, Lightning Crafter
(damage: infinite)

Sorry for the double post.

[L10]

Opening Hand: Two Mountains, Chrome Mox, Instigator, Warchief, Krenko, Ringleader

Turn 1:
- Draw Random Goblin
- Play Chrome Mox with Random Goblin, Mountain, Instigator
Damage = 0

Turn 2:
- Draw Mountain
- Play Mountain and Warchief
- Attack with Instigator and Warchief
- Cheat in Krenko and Ringleader (which grabs 4 Piledrivers)
- Tap Krenko for 4 Tokens
Damage = 4

Turn 3:
- Draw Goblin Pyromancer
- Play Mountain and 4 Piledrivers
- Tap Krenko for 12 Tokens
- Attack with Instigator*, Warchief, Ringleader, 4 Piledrivers, and 16 Tokens
* Cheat in Pyromancer with Instigator on first strike
Damage = 271

Grand Total = 275

[Vandalize]

Tacosnape: This may have nothing to do with Flash, but I was so amused by it I had to bring it up. IBA suggests Brightstone Ritual as a bizarre answer to Empty the Warrens, so I started testing it against some ETW tossing decks. Here's one of my best results ever and quite possibly the best turn one in the history of Vial Goblins:

Opponent: Turn one, ridiculous shit, 16 ETW Tokens:

Me: (Opening Hand: Plateau, Wasteland, Brightstone Ritual, Brightstone Ritual, Warchief, Ringleader, Matron)

-Plateau, Ritual for 16, Warchief, Ringleader (10 floating.)
-(Ringleader hits Ringleader, Gempalm, Piledriver.)
-Ringleader (7 Floating.)
-(Ringleader hits Matron, Matron, Sharpshooter, Piledriver. Sweet!)
-Matron for Ringleader, Piledriver, Ringleader (1 Floating).
-(Ringleader hits Lackey, SGC)
-Brightstone Ritual for 22, Piledriver, Matron for Matron, Matron for Driver, Matron for Driver, Piledriver, Piledriver, Sharpshooter, Lackey, Gempalm, Siege-Gang (5 Floating.)
-Sharpshooter off all tokens.
-Mana Burn for 5.
-Swing for 179.

I guess Tacosnape still has the best post on Vial Goblins ever made.

[jrw1985]

I'm hoping we see a Krenko in a Top-8 in about 17 hours.

[Pee-Dee-2]

Back again in this Forum würg me Smartphone still in holiday.

Yes your answers all right. I made the mistake not to exclued cards like neither Mox nor or Instigator. In my 86, there were only Pilys, Krenkos, lackeys etc. Cards, I would also play actually so to speak. I also didn't think about drawing 4 more with Ringleader.

About Krenko: Why only playing one? He is legendary, but he has a huge impact. As soon as I can, I'll test lists with more than 2 copys of him. With Prospector, you can generate tokens, sac Krenko, play Krenko and generate tokens. I also think he is much better than SGC.

I won't cut Pyrokinesis in my meta. The reanimation of Goblins let me play many mirrors these days in which kinesis is a giant.

[L10]

I am planning to play two Krenkos. Leaving Vial @ 4 is pretty good with six targets (4 Ringleader and 2 Krenko). Goblin Chirurgeon looks pretty decent now too. One of the favorite goblins, actually.


Yes your answers all right. I made the mistake not to exclued cards like neither Mox nor or Instigator.
Yeah, I was wondering how you only got 86. lol

10 Cards: 2 Mountain, Lackey, Prospector, Warchief, Krenko, 4 Piledriver

Turn 1:
- Play Mountain, Lackey
Damage: 0

Turn 2:
- Attack with Lackey
- Cheat in Krenko
- Play Mountain, Piledriver
- Tap Krenko for 3 Tokens EOT
Damage = 1

Turn 3:
- Play Prospector
- Tap Krenko for 7 Token (10 Tokens total)
- Sac 5 Tokens for Mana
- Play Warchief, Piledriver, Piledriver, Piledriver
- Attack with Lackey, Prospector, Warchief, 5 Tokens, 4 Piledriver
Damage = 101

Total Damage = 102

[(nameless one)]

So, what gets cut for Krenko?

Also, what support gets added for Krenko? Any updated list?

[BigBopper]

Turn 1:
- Play Mountain, Lackey
Damage: 0

Turn 2:
- Attack with Lackey
- Cheat in Krenko
- Play Mountain, Piledriver
- Tap Krenko for 3 Tokens EOT
Damage = 1

Turn 3:
- Play Prospector
- Tap Krenko for 7 Token (10 Tokens total)
- Sac 5 Tokens for Mana
- Play Warchief, Piledriver, Piledriver, Piledriver
- Attack with Lackey, Prospector, Warchief, 5 Tokens, 4 Piledriver
Damage = 101

Total Damage = 102

Your turn 2 Krenko has haste...

@nameless one: look at the last 2 pages of this threat.

[L10]

Haha, woops, that's an oversight when I was copy and pasting different scenario. I knew something didn't look right.

10 Cards: 10 Cards: 3 Mountain, Lackey, Prospector, Warchief, Krenko, 3 Piledriver

Turn 1:
- Play Mountain, Lackey
Damage: 0

Turn 2:
- Attack with Lackey
- Cheat in Warchief
- Play Mountain, Prospector, Piledriver
Damage: 1

Turn 3:
- Play Mountain, Krenko
- Tap Krenko for 5 Tokens
- Sac 2 Tokens for 2 Piledrivers
- Attack with Lackey, Warchief, Prospector, 3 Tokens, 3 Piledrivers
Damage: 74

Total Damage = 75

Not over 86, but I don't this is optimized either. I will think more tonight after work. How did you get 86 PD2? I will probably just edit this page. I don't want to spam this thread with this "game".


So, what gets cut for Krenko?

Also, what support gets added for Krenko? Any updated list?
I took out Kiki-Jiki and Lightning Crafter on my list. If you have artifact hate, you can try removing those. Otherwise, it's just taste. You can probably remove a SGC to help the mana curve.

An extra Chieftain helps for haste. Prospector is nice for extra mana. I might even use Chirurgeon. He is effective if the opponent only has burn spells and you can attack with Piledriver with really no drawbacks, as long as you have tokens to sacrifice. There are a lot of interactions you can do with a ton of tokens.

[BigBopper]

Dont take it personally but I dont like how everybody is spamming selfmade cards all over the forum at the moment. Please use the creation thread.

Actually I see 2 cards missing atm. Tuktuk for CC2 and maybe a small Ringleader for 3

This post actually made me think, since red is getting more and more cards to draw a card. So how about a goblin between Silvergill Adept and Elvish Visionary:

Goblin Treasure Hunter - R1

Creature-Goblin

As an additional mana cost to play Goblin Treasure Hunter reveal a goblin card or pay 2.
When Goblin Treasure Hunter comes into play, draw a card.
1/1

[Chatto]

Played a 60+ tournament today with the following list:


Core (21)

-1 Siege-Gang Commander

Other (17)

1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Tarfire
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator

Mana (22)

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
14 Mountain

Sideboard (15)

1 Stingscouger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Anarchy
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void

Went 4-2, losing to Esper Stoneblade (1-2, didn't find a Scrapper or Matron to get one) and to Dredge (1-2, never played against it, so didn't know what to expect untill it was too late)

Won against Merfolk (2-1, with the new Lord), Dredge (2-1, this time I knew what to expect), Rug Delver (2-0) and Sneak Attack (2-0).

Krenko was a beast and it seems that people recognize this fact. If your opponent doesn't have an answer, Krenko will win you the game. The best examples today were against Rug Delver and Sneak Attack.

Rug Delver:
Game one; he simply scoops after I resolve a Ringleader which gets me Matron, Ringleader, Krenko and Lackey. While I will admit I had some board-advantage, he still had a chance.
Game two: holding the fort with Krenko which gets removed, but I win in the end.

Sneak Attack:
Game one; he doesn't find land and I overwhelm him with Gobbo's and Krenko-tokens.
Game two; I have a vial @ 2, 1 Piley, 1 Warchief and three land in play. In my hand I have a mountain and another Warchief. It's his turn and he plays Show and Tell. He turns Emrakul, I turn Krenko (with haste of Warchief, but my opponent missed it at first). He attacks, annihalator 6 and he has a grin. I tap Krenko, put three tokens into play and sac those with three land, taken 15 damage and going to 5. His grin suddenly vaporised. On my turn I put vial@3 and put Warchief in play. Then I draw a Matron, playing it with my lone mountain. I activate Krenko to put five tokens into play and attack for the win. Total damage given; 26, total damage taken; 15, surviving annihalator 6. How I love the examples given by L10 and others; I was very happy with this result.

Some thoughts about Krenko:

- He has to have haste, so in order to give him haste I think the bare minimum of haste-lords is six (maybe even seven)
- Only play Krenko when you are sure you can use it immediately (hence haste-lords)
- I will keep playing two Krenko's main. You definitly want to have one and with FoWs, Plows, Paths, Dismember and Bolt etc etc in my meta (the Netherlands), chances are I will lose one Krenko every now and then.
- I took a SGC out and never really missed the second one all day. Krenko just gave me more tokens, period. When Krenko landed, I almost always ended up with 10+ Goblin-tokens within two turns... Which was really nice.
- Along with CoS Krenko has made Goblins a really tough match-up once again. I had some people talking about packing E.P., not only for us but Merfolk which seems to be on the rise again (I saw two of them, heard of one more and played against one, after being literally gone for almost two years)

I'm planning to change my deck:

-2 MWM (really nice combo with Krenko, usefull against Dredge -too slow though-)
-1 Mountain
+1 Goblin Chieftain (giving me a total of seven haste-lords)
+1 Skirk Prospector ( imagine what you can do with the tokens of Krenko, but I'm still thinking this one over, can be very usefull against Bridges from Below of course)
+1 Tarfire (while I still think Lighting Bolt is better, Tarfire keeps the synergy of the deck intact and kills Delver and all other x/2 too)

[jrw1985]

Watching SCG St Louis just now. Goblin deck with Krenko just exploded.
T1 Vial
T2 Thalia, Thalia eats burn, Eot Vial in Lackey
T3 Lackey attacks, puts Ringleader in, draws 3, Lackey gets burned, Eot Vial in Piledriver
T4 Cavern, Krenko, Vial in Chieftain, activate Krenko. Put 4 tokens in play. Attack for 27. W.

Heartwarming stuff, that.

[L10]

Blake Kettle is up again!
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/120715_stlouis.html

[Final Fortune]

So, what gets cut for Krenko?

Also, what support gets added for Krenko? Any updated list?

Not certain it's support for Krenko but Gempalm Incinerator is 4x in every list I play Krenko in, cycling to kill Griselbrand feels oh so rewarding. I also really want to try playing a list with 4 Sparksmith, I think he's a pretty underrated Goblin anyway.

[GoboLord]

Watching SCG St Louis just now. Goblin deck with Krenko just exploded.
T1 Vial
T2 Thalia, Thalia eats burn, Eot Vial in Lackey
T3 Lackey attacks, puts Ringleader in, draws 3, Lackey gets burned, Eot Vial in Piledriver
T4 Cavern, Krenko, Vial in Chieftain, activate Krenko. Put 4 tokens in play. Attack for 27. W.

Heartwarming stuff, that.


Just in case anyone is thinking "Wow, Krenko > SGC and Chieftain > Warchief!!!!!" after reading this...here's the same situation with different cards

T1 Vial
T2 Thalia, Thalia eats burn, Eot Vial in Lackey
T3 Lackey attacks, puts Ringleader in, draws 3, Lackey gets burned, Eot Vial in Piledriver
T4 Cavern, Vial in Warchief, play SGC, put 3 tokens in play. Attack for 24. W.


I also really want to try playing a list with 4 Sparksmith, I think he's a pretty underrated Goblin anyway.
Please let us know the results. I've tested him as a 2-of some time ago and I found him horrible. My results were that I could almost never afford the damage when you need to remove creatures. When you really can afford the damage he gets either countered/removed (often you have to pass the turn before he gets going) or is redudant (like in creatures-less MUs). In other situations you will find yourself targeting a */5 creature with exactly 5 Goblins in play, which is a risky move as your opponent can lower your Goblin count in response to the ability - same shit as with Gempalm Incinerator - only the costs of "failure" are much higher in Sparksmith's case.
So, wether your results are good or bad, please write some sentences about your findings and I will add them to the "To-be-tested-cards" parts of the primer. I'm looking forward to it.

[kombatkiwi]

I played in a small tournament in the weekend with a fairly standard list.
I went 3-1 beating Hive Mind, Hypergenesis and Maverick, losing to Esper Stoneblade.

Against Hive Mind and Hypergenesis, manadenial was key to getting the victory. (Especially ports against Hive Mind)

Against Maverick, Krenko was absolutely ridiculous. If you untap with a Krenko (obviously it has haste when you play it the first time) I can't see myself losing against any deck unless I'm already low and they have big fliers.

I definitely made a misplay in one of the stoneblade games, I feel like it was winnable if I played tighter.

Some thoughts on individual cards:
My one-of tech slots were Siege Gang, Mogg Fanatic, Stingscourger, Skirk Prospector, Sharpshooter, and Possibly something Else

-I wanted another Krenko (I could only find 1 but 2 is definitely the correct number. It's better than Siege Gang in most cases. If you're still playing 2 Siege Gang Commanders I recommend cutting one in order to fit Krenkos. Krenko is better pretty much all the time for token making so you only need Siege Gang for the activated ability, in which case it is usually outclassed by sharpshooter. I would even consider cutting siege gangs altogether but it has been a mainstay in the deck for a long time and sometimes it just does work.

-Skirk Prospector was win-more. If you naturally draw into it then often you wish it was something else, and you rarely ever search for it with matron because you would just rather have a card that impacts the board more. If I got it into play and it did absurd things that was likely already a won game anyway.

Sharpshooter and Stingscourger continue to be amazing.

Mogg Fanatic wasn't very impressive but its strength depends highly on what the opponents are playing and it has done better in the past.

I think that playing random 1-of tech goblins has a higher opportunity cost now - playing more copies of Mogg War Marshals and Piledrivers is now a more appealing move because of the synergy that these cards have with Krenko.

Also I played all 8 Haste Lords and as usual this configuration worked for me.
Both Warchief and Chieftain are great to have in multiples, they power up krenko, just strong cards in general I guess.

I played 4 Wastes and 4 Ports, 21 Lands total: I don't have any caverns.

In games that I lost to stoneblade and Maverick I got completely destroyed by bloody Jitte, I wasn't playing artifact hate mainboard (1 Scrapper in sideboard) but if I had caverns I might think about playing Tin Street Hooligan.
I looked at goblin tinkerer which is cool because if you have a chieftain out it can kill Jitte and live but I'd rather not be in the awkward situation of not having a haste lord and Jitte just killing it immediately.

[GoboLord]

-Skirk Prospector was win-more. If you naturally draw into it then often you wish it was something else, and you rarely ever search for it with matron because you would just rather have a card that impacts the board more. If I got it into play and it did absurd things that was likely already a won game anyway.

[...]

In games that I lost to stoneblade and Maverick I got completely destroyed by bloody Jitte, I wasn't playing artifact hate mainboard (1 Scrapper in sideboard) but if I had caverns I might think about playing Tin Street Hooligan.
I looked at goblin tinkerer which is cool because if you have a chieftain out it can kill Jitte and live but I'd rather not be in the awkward situation of not having a haste lord and Jitte just killing it immediately.

Sure, Skirk Popper DOES enable ridiculous moves, but that's not where you should see him. Skirk Prospector (1-of) alongside with 2 SGCs is all you need to fight Jitte. If you are up against Maverick or Stoneblade just make sure you get one of them to stick on the board as soon as possible.
However, my decklist is rarely featuring less than 7-8 spotremoval - this relatively high number adds up to the effectiveness of the aforementioned strategy against Jitte. So, fighting Jitte only with "block-sac" effects might not work out well for you if you are running less spotremoval.

[L10]

I also use Sharpshooter against Jitte and Lifelink. Just block with a 1/1 goblin (Lackey, Matron, MWM, and Tokens) and ping the goblin with Sharpshooter. Does not work with a +1/+1 lord online though.

[mans0011]

5-3 with Goblins at the SCG Open in St Louis.
List:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
15 Mountain
-------------------------------------
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Stringscourger
1 Goblin Tinkerer

Round 1, Matt with MUD
Game 1: I played first and dropped Lackey, his first turn was a Sol land into Monolith into Metalworker. I played a fanatic, attacked with Lackey, he blocked, I shoot with Fanatic. He plays some more mana and some equipments but no dudes, I get Warchief into Piledriver, Matron into Piledriver and win.
Game 2: He plays first turn Chalice on a Sol land, I respond with a Waste. He plays another one and doesn’t do much with it, and I Waste again. He never recovers.

Round 2, Dan with Steve Black style BWR
Game 1: He hits a money turn 1 Therapy to snag my Vial (he saw me playing the night before in the grinders, that sonofabitch), he’s eventually able to cast all of the discard spells at the appropriate times, and I can just never get in the game.
Game 2: I forget how this one played out, but it was kind of grindy. He took 4 damage just from his fetches, then I was able to keep the board cleared with Pyrokinesis and Fanatics long enough to win.
Game 3: Darkblast is so good against Goblins. I almost lost game 2 to it, and there were a few times where it was almost bad for me in game 3, but I was able to control his board well enough, he dropped Bitterblossom, I didn’t care so much, and eventually got there.

Round 3, Alex with UW Stoneblade
Game 1: Game 1 is a slaughter. His life total goes 20, 19 (fetch), 17 (Warchief), 12 (Hasty Piledriver), dead (Matron into Piledriver).
Game 2: Another grindy game. He has an active COP: Red AND a Humility, but I still manage to get him down to 3 before he brainstorms into runner-runner miracle Terminus. Wtf can you do, right?
Game 3: I make a huge misplay here and don’t burn his turn 2 Mystic out with my 2 Fanatics, but it didn’t matter because he hit 5 mana anyway. I’m able to killed his Jitte, but active Batterskull is so harsh.

Round 4, Kevin with Esper Blade
Game 1: I think he has Batterskull, he gets me down to 11 and I kill it with Tuktuk, then I’m able to stabilize and grind him out.
Game 2: I forget exactly what happens, but I win. I think he had Jace, TMS and I kill it. Then he gets Jace, TMS, and I kill it again. He never draws anything else and I overrun him with gobos. I think I was on a mana denial play this game and he just couldn’t get gas.

Round 5, Nick with Esper Blade
Game 1: Turn 2 Mystic into Sword of Fire and Ice is pretty much unbeatable. He played well and I couldn’t ever get in the game. Also, I’m pretty sure he was able to stall me out with 3 copies of Lingering Souls that he played and flashed back. Fml…
Game 2: See above. I killed his Jitte and his SoFI, and he still just beat me down to nothingness.

Round 6, ??? with Merfolk
Game 1: I resolve vials and he doesn’t care. His dudes are bigger than mine and I never get Sharpshooter in time.
Game 2: His Blue Elemental Blasts are better than pretty much anything else I can do. His dudes are still bigger than mine. Can’t believe I lost this round 2-0, fml.

Round 7, Mike with Dredge
Game 1: Finally, a deck that I’m confident against. I remove 2 of his bridges with a Fanatic with Narc trigger on the stack. He beats in with Ichorids, I think I have multiple Incinerators and Fanatics this game. The first time he deals damage to me is from 1 Ichorid and 1 Griselbrand. I take it and go to 10, and I’ve been beating him down, he gets all the way back up to 18, and takes me to 3, but Warchief, 2 Piledrivers, and little dorks make minced-meat out of his 17 life.
Game 2: He decides to play, and passes. Eh…? I get turn 1 Lackey, he does nothing on his turn again but discards Stinkweed Imp, I connect with Lackey and plop down a Warchief, play a Piledriver, play my Tormod’s Crypt. I go ahead and use the Crypt because I know I’m a turn from killing him and don’t want anything funny to happen…. I untap, play something else that either gets him to concede or out-right kills him.

Round 8, Nathan with Elves
Game 1: He gets turn 1 and 2 Glimpse, not sure why he played them. I guess he was concerned about my turn 1 Lackey. He only gets about 5 cards total off both but one of them was the Archdruid, I never really get anything to connect, and he eventually hardcasts Emrakul. Gotta love Elves…
Game 2: Fan open a 7-hander with 2 Pyrokinesis, 2 throw-away Gobos, and some board presence. I get the sick trades on Pyrokinesis, and he’s never in this game.
Game 3: Pretty similar. Lackey, clear his board with Pyrok, vomit my hand onto the board, he would have drawn Glimpse of Nature the turn after he died. Rough beats.

I need to take better notes during tournaments. I also need to start writing what I sideboard. I was 40-something-th place, so I used the prize for store credit and used it toward Cavern of Souls. Just some notes: I’m definitely replacing 1 SGC with 1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. I let 4reak talk me out of it, but I think it’s so much better than the second Commander in the games you would go get your 5cc Gobos. Not entirely sure what to do about the sideboard. I expected to face Reanimator (which I crrrrrushed in the grinders), Maverick, Dredge (only once!), Sneak/Show and its variants, and RUG Delver. That’s pretty much what I prepared for and only faced one (fucking… one!) of those all day. Stoneblade was a rough match, even though the UW guy got ridiculously lucky. But good for him. I also just sided incorrectly for the matches that I lost (except Merfolk, that was a mulligan issue). I need a repeatable way to kill artifacts, though I probably could have recovered from any blade except something that gives pro-red. Oh, and eats literally any one of my guys. Oh, and draws him a card. Yeah…

I had a great time and met some great folks. There’s a shop where people play Legacy at on Wednesday nights here in town, so I can start getting some regular play time in, and that’s really cool. Shout-out to you cats here in the Metro East area and the guys from Indy. You’re great guys and I look forward to gaming in the future.

Questions, comments, criticism are encouraged.

EDIT:




//Mana [21]
4 Wastes
2 Ports
4 Caverns
11 Mountains

//Core [22]
...

//Others [17]
4 Piledriver
3 MWM
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Gempalms
2 Stinger
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember


What sideboard are you running and for what expected meta?

[kombatkiwi]

Sure, Skirk Popper DOES enable ridiculous moves, but that's not where you should see him. Skirk Prospector (1-of) alongside with 2 SGCs is all you need to fight Jitte. If you are up against Maverick or Stoneblade just make sure you get one of them to stick on the board as soon as possible.
However, my decklist is rarely featuring less than 7-8 spotremoval - this relatively high number adds up to the effectiveness of the aforementioned strategy against Jitte. So, fighting Jitte only with "block-sac" effects might not work out well for you if you are running less spotremoval.

That's what I found: For spot removal I only play gempalm incinerator (and stingscourger, if you count that), not Tarfire or Warren Weirding or Pyrokinesis, so by the time I played Sharpshooter or Mogg Fanatic or Prospector or even Siege Gang Jitte would just kill it immediately anyway.

[_Fortune_]

Is Rishadan Port still an auto-include in these decks? I'm seeing more and more lists that are skipping port altogether.

[unicoerner]

My actual List:

Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
10 [IN] Mountain (4)

// Creatures
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
3 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
2 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [WWK] Tuktuk Scrapper
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [ON] Skirk Prospector
1 [M13] Krenko, Mob Boss
1 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal
1 [TE] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [LRW] Tarfire

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

I wnet back to playing ports and no Winstigator, because they improve the combo MU.
I just tested the Krenkos and i think as part of the toolbox it's good, but if we go up to 3 or for we have to build or deck around it. This might be the way to go, but the problem i had with the tokens was that they don't fly!
This sound stupid, but vs delvers, or even affinity you can still lose with 10 tokens out just because you are one round too late.
I think having a 4 mana bomb is still cool, because you can just go Matron--Krenko explode.
I am not sure if i should play the War Marshall at all in my build. Perhaps adding my 2nd Pilie is better, but pilie is always the first card which gets boarded out.
So what do you think?

[jrw1985]

Is Rishadan Port still an auto-include in these decks? I'm seeing more and more lists that are skipping port altogether.

No, Rishadan Port is no longer and Auto-Include. The format has gotten so quick that Port just isn't strong enough to be an auto-include. I'm NOT saying Port is unplayable (it's definitely still playable) but your MD needs to be built considering your Ports.

I myself have mostly given up on running Ports for the time being. Here's why:

First and foremost, they don't do as much as they used to. Against a deck like RUG Delver (AKA the Best Deck in the format) they will either be Wasted or responded to with instant speed effects (BS, Bolt). Cutting down your manabase by 2 per turn when the only benefit is making your opponent cast spells in their upkeep instead of mainphase just isn't worth it to me. This same argument applies against decks with Top, Miracles, etc.

Secondly, running Port requires you to have a larger manabase (22-23 lands with Port, 21-20 without), which means less threats in your deck. When you're facing a deck like like RUG Delver you're going to need that mana to do more interactive things.

Thirdly, with the printing of Cavern of Souls, Goblin's manabase has become a little shakier when it comes casting non-Goblin spells and activating Gempalms/SGCs. You can't cycle Gempalm with Caver + Port on the board, which might just cost you a game.

I've become a fan of a build with no Ports, a lower curve, more threats, and Wastes as the answer to land plans.

That all being said, the last Goblins deck to win a major event was packing 4 Ports. They're entirely viable still. Results speak for themselves.

[ScatmanX]

7.5k Tournament this past weekend. I sleeved this 75:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wastelands
2 Rishadan Port
9 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander

2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Warren Instigator

3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain

1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tarfire
1 Goblin sharpshooter

2 Krenko
1 Skirk Prospector

SB:
3 Pyrokinesis

2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Graffdigger's Cage
2 Fearie Macabre

3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chrome Mox
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

From my last tournament the only changes MD are: -1 SGC, -1 Kiki, -1Gempalm, +2 Krenko, +1 Prospector.
66 people, so 7 rounds. Here we go:

Round 1 – Dredge
Game 1: I mull a 1 lander. He opens with Looting, discarding Dredgers. I play Waste + Vial. He dredges, then Breaktroughs. I see his deck for the next turn, and scoop.

SB: +5 Grave-Hate, +3 Knesis, +1 Needle, +1 Mox, -1 Tuktuk, -1 Sting, -2 Gempalm,-1 Krenko, -1 Tarfire, -3 Ringleader, -1 Vial.

Game 2: I keep Lackey, Relic, Krenko, Knesis, 3 lands. I lead with Lackey. He with Careful Study. I play Relic, but make the mistake of passing the turn and pop in his Draw step. Krenko comes down. He dredges 1 Bridge and 2 Narcomoebas, so with thir trigger on the stack, I remove them. He had Putrid Imp + Study to keep going his turn. Fortunately, I draw Chieftain, cast it, and win on the next turn. His other 2 Moebas were in his hand.

Game 3: I mull and keep Relic, Instigator, Matron, Mox, 2 lands. He plays Study discarding 2 ggt. I draw a Gempalm, remove it for Mox, cast and pop Relic, getting Sting I guess. He play a 2nd land, and a 2nd Careful Study, discarding a dredger. I draw Faerie Macabre. Thanks god. I activate it, and he taps for…. Wait for it… STIFLE! Fuck. I play Matron for Ringleader, because needed some gas. His dredge is bad, and he pass. I draw Krenko, and decide to play it. He dredges bad again, but getting Therapies and Darkblast, but no Moebas or Ichorids. I draw the Prospector for the turn (lucky as hell), cast it, tap Krenko for 3 tokens, sac 1 + pay 3 mana for Ringleader, getting Matron and Chieftain. He I think I should have sacked 2 Tokens + Matron for Chieftain, and swung, but I simply attacked and passed. His turn he has to Dredge Darkblast to kill Prospector, and had a Therapy for my Chieftain. But I’m lucky as hell, draw another, and swing for lethal In 2 turns.
1-0

Round 2: NO RUG
Game 1: I mull on the play, keeping Piledriver, Chieftain, Matron, 3 lands. He plays noble, I pass. He Brainstorm, plays another land + Noble. I play Piledriver. He passes. I play Chieftain. He kill my 2 dudes with P.Fires, and passes. I play Skirk Prospector + Matron for Ringleader. Here I had Port untapped. He had 2 lands + 2 Nobles. I knew he was playing NO. The right move would be, in his upkeep, sac Matron and tap one of his lands with Port. I didn’t, and he played NO, not having a 3rd land. Had I done that, I would probably be able to race it, because my Ringleader next turn was pure gold.

SB: +3 Kinesis, +2 Relic, +1 Cage, -1 Gempalm, -1 Sting, -1 Prospector, -1 Tuktuk, -1 Chieftain, -1 Instigator.

Game 2: I keep I risky hand because wanted to know how it played out. 2 Ports, Piledriver, Shooter, Chieftain, Matron, Cage. T1 Cage. He plays land and pass. I draw Waste and Port him. He pass. I draw Mountain, Waste + Port him. He misses a land drop. I draw Cavern and play Chieftain, that is burned, then Matron for Ringleader. He start to hit every landdrop, even though another Waste, but his Brainstorms are bad, and he don’t find a shuffle effect (other than GSZ, that he cannot use).He manages to get a Goyf down, and hit me 2 or 3 times, but I have a Vial out that was ticking up, and keeping him of red now. My 1st Ringleader shows me nothing. Despite that, him + Chieftain + a Piledriver brought him down to 5 while Goyf was tapped. We reach a point where there were no good attacks, so we both pass. He kills some guys, and I play other dudes. When I had Ringleader, Lackey and Instigator, I draw a Ringleader, that gets me: Tadaaaa! Tarfire. 1 card. Well, that was actually enough. I attack, and he had 1 Goy and 1 Clique to block only, while all R sources were tapped, so he has to take at least 5 dmg. He show me his hand with a burn, GSZ and NO…
(this game I actually waste my Krenko, opening it for removal. There was an alternative, where I’d force removal on a Piledriver or Warchief, while still having Chieftain on hand, so bad play for my part. It would have been MUCH easier)

Game 3: I keep a Vial hand that resolves. Port T2, Port +Waste T3. With Vial@3 I decide to play Chieftain on his turn. He had a R source open, that my Port could not hold back. My turn I attack, and he burns it. I Matron safely for a Gempalm to kill his Dryad Arbor, and proceed to kill him slowly with a chain of ringleaders.
2-0

Round 3: Sneak and Show
Game 1: On the play, I keep an awesome hand of 2x Mountain, Cavern, Lackey, SGC, Ringleader, Chieftain. I cast Lackey. He plays Tomb, Petal + SnT. Nice. He gets Emmy. Ringleader from SnT reveal 2 useless guys. My draw? Stingscourger!!! Uncouterable due to Caverns. Hit with Lackey to get SGC, then he dies next turn I guess. He had counters and another SnT, but did not had another U source.

SB: +3 ReB, +2 Needle, +1 Mox, -1 Tuktuk, -1 SS, -1 Tarfire, -2 Gempalm, -1 Vial

Game 2 : He Ponders of basic Island. I play Vial. He play Tomb and SnT, getting Emrakul again. I had the Sting in my hand already this time. I draw a Pyroblast, play my 2nd land, and pass with Lackey on hand. He plays Petal, Petal, Sneak, attack for 15. I sac all my permanents. My turn I manage to get a Mox like a boss, and play it + Lackey. He passes. I hit and get Warchief, passing with Port. He passes. I hit, and a Matron finds Piledriver. He passes again. I found a Caverns, play Driver, and hit him to 1. He draws, and show me a hand with FoW, Fluster, Emrakul and a Scalding Tarn, that he just drew, but could not crack. Fuck I’m lucky.
3-0

Round 4: Teammate with Punishing Maverick. We decide to ID, but play 3 games for fun. I lose all 3.
3-0-1

Round 5: Canadian
Game 1: He plays Delver of Volcanic. I play Vial, that sticks. He blind flips it, and play Brainstorm + Waste. I decided to Waste. He did not had another land. Sting gets rid of Delver, and Goblins does what it can do with Vial.

SB: +2 Relic, +3 Knesis, +3 Pyroblast, -3 Instigator, -1 Krenko, -1 Scrapper, -1 SS, -1 Gempalm, -1 Piledriver.

Game 2: He plays a Mangoose. Mull andI play Lackey from Caverns. He offers the trade, and I take it. He plays another. I draw a bunch of bad cards: Gempalm, Vial, 2x Knesis, Pyro. His goose eats me. I never had a chance to properly block the thing without getting screwed for Bolt or Fire/Ice.

SB: -3 Knesis, +3 Instigator.

Game 3: I kill an early Delver, and get to resolve and Instigator due to Caverns. It dies to Fire/Ice, and Caverns get Wasted. 2 tunrs later, He foW’s a Matron, then FoW’s a Ringleader next turn, emptying my hand. He does not find a creature though, so I tick Vial to 3, and hold a Cavern on my hand. By this time I draw Warchief, having Krenko in my hand. I play Krenko of Cavern, and pass. If he has removal I can at least get 2 goblins from it. He doesn’t, and play Delver. I make 2 tokens, and hit. He plays Goose. I make 4 Tokens, and manage to win the race next turn with some more.
4-0-1

Round 5: SnT
I give a dumb ID. Don’t ask me why.
4-0-2

Round 6: Goblins
G1: I mull and keep 2x Lackey, SGC, Krenko, 2x lands. I play Lackey, he Tarfire’s it. I play the 2nd. He plays Vial, and Lackey connects. I decide to get SGC 1st. He plays a Chieftain (I had drawn a Gempalm, but had Cavern+Waste as mana). I draw a Mountain like a boss, use SGC to kill Chieftain, connect and get Krenko. Next turn he scoops to the beast.

SB: +3 Knesis, -1 Sting, -1 Piledriver, -1 Instigator.

G2: I keep 2x Ringleader, Kinesis, 3 Mountains (6). He just passes. I draw Vial. He plays Instigator. I draw a Mox =(. He plays Warchief, I kill them both with Kinesis. I draw a Sting, and decide to remove it for Mox, and get Ringleader faster. It gets some juice. He Matron for Ringleader. I play Krenko, with Vial @3, and only Matron in hand. He plays Ringleader, finding Warchief, SS and SGC. Crap. I Matron eot and think hard. How do I kill him? I could get Ringleader, for more gas, Gempalm, to get his Shooter and find more cards, but decided to go for Chieftain. I draw Lackey, Vial Chieftain, make 5 tokens, and hit. He goes to 7. He plays Warchief and SGC, getting tapped out. I draw another Chieftain, and crush him with 2x Chieftains, Ringleader, Lackey, and 14 tokens. He said “yeah, I have to buy some of those now…”
5-0-2

Top 8: GW Maverick.
Game 1: I mull to 6, keeping 2 Mountain, Instigator, Chieftain, Gempalm, Warchief. He T1 GSZ for Arbor. I play Gator (drew Piledriver). He plays Stoneforge for Jitte, with Dryad still up. I draw Wasteland, and think I made a mistake. I had some options here:
1 – Attack, and see how he blocks. If he chose to block with Arbor, I could play Warchief or Waste a Savana, leaving him with 1 mana only. If he blocked with Stoneforge, I could Kill stone with Gempalm, and leave Instigator alive, or trade gator for Stone, Gempalm Dryad, and Waste dual or play Warchief.
2 – Play Chieftain and hit with both. This way he would block Instigator with either Dryad, which should be fine, since he would not be able to equip Jitte next turn, or block with Stone, leaving him with only 3 lands, one being dryad, me with 2 guys, and him not being able to equip + swing next turn.

I made the crappiest decision: Attacked. He blocked with Stoneforge, and I gempalmed it, drawing something bad, then I Wasted the Dryad. He untapped, played land + Relicary, and I did not found a 3rd land again. Damn. What would you guys have done in this situation? (his other 2 lands by then were Forest and Savahna).

SB: +3 Knesis, +2 Relic, +1 Tuktuk, +1 Needle, -1 Sting, -2 Piledriver, -2 Chieftain, -2 Instigator.

Game 2: I mull to 5, keeping Lackey x2, Cavern, Warchief, Knesis. I lead with Lackey, him with Mom. I drew Matron, Kinesis the mom with Warchief, hit, and Matron for Krenko, playing Lackey #2. He plays Stone I guess. I hit and get Krenko, playing Vial. He plays Noble. I pass. He gets that Flashy elf, then Jitte gets some counters. He remove both for the 2nd and 3rd lackey I drew, but I get to 6 tokens, and hit him. He gets +2 counters, and I make more tokens. The turn jitte got to 3 counters, he also played and Engineered Explosives to wipe my board. Crap. Oh, and Waste for my lone Caverns, and Qasali for Vial, so I ended up basically with nothing. He did, however went to 2 one turn of the game. Quite good for a mull to 5, with only 1 land.
5-1-2

This last match was the only match I got to activate Krenko and lost, and mainly due to E.E. (well he did cast a Ghostly prision later, so that’s that…). I completely loved him.

This list was awesome, and there are only 2 things I want to do for the next tournament:
1 – Put another Basic Mountain in there. 9 is Way too greedy.
2- Put a 2nd Cage on the SB. Got impressed of how good it was against NO RUG, and how good it could be against Dredge.
Other than that, thanks for reading. Any comments are appreciated.

[Humphrey]

Im planning to play Goblins in the grinders of GP Gent. I tested a lot last days and found "fair decks" easy to beat. But SneakShow and Reanimator really gives me headaches.

I play 2 Sting main, but that doesnt cut it, they have to many different threads and ways to cheat them into play.

Do you think Thalia is really the way to go? Maybe Ill test blue for Pierces.

[L10]

mans0011, why did you decide to go with four Mogg Fanatics? Were you preparing for specific matchups? I don't like the fourth Pyrokinesis though because drawing it too often creates card disadvantage. I think three is the right number. Why do you have Tinkerer on SB but Tuktuk on MD? I use to keep Tinkerer in the MD because he is cheap, and is decent if my opponent doesn't have artifacts to destroy. Tuktuk gets sided in when I see Stoneforge. But I'd like to here your opinion. NICE REPORT THOUGH!

ScatmanX, how do you feel about Chrome Mox + Winstigator? It seems Winstigator didn't get to shine on any of your matches, while a turn 1 Lackey helped a ton. Were there any instances you wished the Winstigators were Piledrivers? With regards to GW Maverick, G1, option 2 may have been better, but you still had a chance if you managed to get a mountain. But I don't think your play was too bad. Your mana base is too gready though. To be honest, I don't think Port really benefit your deck as a stall tactic. You may want to replace one with a Mountain, and the other for the third Piledriver.

Humphrey, for Sneak and Show, I have Stingscourgers, Pithing Needles, and Red Elemental Blasts, and just try to outrace them. For Reanimator, I have Stingscourgers, Red Elemental Blasts (to go against their counters, if felt necessary), Relic of Progenitus, and Grafdigger's Cage. Having both Relic and Cag is nice because they have to side in both Echoing Truth and Pithing Needle to go against them.

My SB looks like this:
1 Stingscourger (1 MD)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (0 MD)
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Relic of Progenitus

I decided to dodge E. Plaque, Mono White Control, and Storm. Pithing Needle is too good with Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Umezawa's Jitte, and other cards that outright kills goblins, running around.


I activate Krenko to put five tokens into play and attack for the win. Total damage given; 26, total damage taken; 15, surviving annihalator 6. How I love the examples given by L10 and others; I was very happy with this result.
I totally missed this. One word: Awesome.

[GoboLord]

Im planning to play Goblins in the grinders of GP Gent. I tested a lot last days and found "fair decks" easy to beat. But SneakShow and Reanimator really gives me headaches.

I play 2 Sting main, but that doesnt cut it, they have to many different threads and ways to cheat them into play.

Do you think Thalia is really the way to go? Maybe Ill test blue for Pierces.

Here is my oppinion on those MUs:

SneakShow:
* is inconsitent, sometimes it has T3 Combo + Protection, sometimes it's fishing for 5 turn without doing anything
* you won't significantly improve the MU with Pierce whereas you can be sure that Pierces will stay in your board in most other MUs
* the deck is not played frequently, just dodge it

Reanimator:
* Leyline of the FUCKING Void is good. Don't let them tell you that "Yeah, you know, Leyline is useless because we just can go off via Show and Tell" cause this is simply not true. They do NOT want to S&T against a deck that features Ringleader, Matron, Siege-Gang and most importantly: Stingscourger
* other GYhate than LLOTV is not effective against Reanimator
* The deck is expensive and might therefore not be frequently played, just dodge it

So: I would just accept that the S&T MU is basically a coinflip and that Reanimator is beatable with Leylines. The decks you need to focus on are UW Miracle, RUG Thresh and Stoneblade variants.

[movingtonewao]

any tips on how to play against miracle control? I pretty much get raped by them most of the time. I find it rather insulting when my T1 lackey gets "answered" by a miracled Terminus.

[GoboLord]

any tips on how to play against miracle control? I pretty much get raped by them most of the time. I find it rather insulting when my T1 lackey gets "answered" by a miracled Terminus.

Tips:
* Vial is more important than Lackey in this MU
* don't overextend. you can usually build up some pressure with ~4 creatures. keep the rest in your hand to be able to rebuild your pressure after a Terminus
* play 4 Piledrivers
* play Sulfuric Vortex in your SB
* the REAL problem about this deck is not Terminus but Entreat the Angels. The more they run, the worse it is. usually they don't have any other win-condition apart from EtA

[ScatmanX]

ScatmanX, how do you feel about Chrome Mox + Winstigator? It seems Winstigator didn't get to shine on any of your matches, while a turn 1 Lackey helped a ton. Were there any instances you wished the Winstigators were Piledrivers? With regards to GW Maverick, G1, option 2 may have been better, but you still had a chance if you managed to get a mountain. But I don't think your play was too bad. Your mana base is too gready though. To be honest, I don't think Port really benefit your deck as a stall tactic. You may want to replace one with a Mountain, and the other for the third Piledriver.
I always prefered Instigator over Piledrivers, and don't think more pillys would be better.
Mox did was a little unnimpressive today, but did saved me against Dredge G3, being able to play and crack Relic T1, which without, I'd have lost.
On the other hand, on the other top8 match, tere was goblins vs SnT, and Goblins led, with mulligan, with a T3 kill from Mox+Cavern+Instigator, T2 dropping Kiki+Piledriver, which was pretty awesome.
Thinking more about it, cutting a Port for another Mountain is probably right. This weekend there'll be more tournaments, so let's see how it goes.

[Humphrey]

I dont think Sneakshow and Reanimator are that inconsistant, depends on the build though.
And dodging them on a big tourney is not the best plan :D


Here is my current list.

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island

4 AEther Vial

4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Warren Instigator
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Matron

2 Pyrokinesis

SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 4 Spell Pierce

[Vacrix]

SB: 4 Spell Pierce
So dirty.

3 Needles looks pretty good as well. BUG Control and Nic Fit are playing Deed and Needle also shuts off Top against Miracle control, making it more difficult for them to setup Terminus. Shuts down Sneak Attack. Shuts down Jace. Shuts down equipment as well. I'm surprised some people leave this out of their sideboard.

[Yuri8]

decklist

You run insanely high curve without ports, only 8 one drops and 5 two drops (stings is of course 2cmc drop but you won't play on turn 2 too often) would occasionally lead to empty turns which is crucial in today field in my opinion, and only two matrons? There will be plenty situations where you can cast matron and find anything but third sgc will just be unplayable.

Let us know how it did if you attend any tournament.

[ScatmanX]

Damn those posts that get lost on the 20th post of a page...

[Humphrey]

You run insanely high curve without ports, only 8 one drops and 5 two drops (stings is of course 2cmc drop but you won't play on turn 2 too often) would occasionally lead to empty turns which is crucial in today field in my opinion, and only two matrons? There will be plenty situations where you can cast matron and find anything but third sgc will just be unplayable.

Let us know how it did if you attend any tournament.

Well, if we dont manage to cheat big stuff via Lackey/Instigator or Vial into play, we are almost dead green anyway. So the plan is to consistently connect and drop a bomb.
Maybe I want a third Stingscourger.

I think Matron is the weakest slot, until you play a few 1-ofs.


@Vacrix: I did play Needles at my last tournament and they were very useful indeed. Wont play less then 2 atm. In my opinion, its the best hate against Jitte and if the opponent fetches for Skull, naming SFM is pure gold. Shuts down Grizzel, too ;)

[GoboLord]

Damn those posts that get lost on the 20th post of a page...

Awwww, dude :-D it didn't get lost. I'm just sick of writing you "well played" and "congratulations on the finish" whenever you come back from a tournament. You are so successful it makes me lazy :-D

Jokes aside: You really ARE successful and performed well as always, good job. I already added your tournament report to the list of tournament report in the primer.

[ScatmanX]

Awwww, dude :-D it didn't get lost. I'm just sick of writing you "well played" and "congratulations on the finish" whenever you come back from a tournament. You are so successful it makes me lazy :-D

Jokes aside: You really ARE successful and performed well as always, good job. I already added your tournament report to the list of tournament report in the primer.
Thanks! just needed some love =p

@Humphrey: How can you say Matron is the weakest slot in the deck, when she is, well, every slot in the deck?
Need Stingscourger vs Emrakul? Well, you have 6 now.
Ringleader vs Control? You have 8.
Another Piledriver against combo? Well, there you go.
Tuktuk? You got the picture already.

[Humphrey]

Thanks! just needed some love =p

@Humphrey: How can you say Matron is the weakest slot in the deck, when she is, well, every slot in the deck?
Just have Sting directly.
Ringleader vs Control? You have 8.
-Drop another SGC ftw
Another Piledriver against combo? Well, there you go.
Usually way to slow. Also most list did cut Pile to 2, so I have it directly
Tuktuk? You got the picture already.
Play 2 Tuktuk instead


Most of the times Matron is to slow for my taste and only finds stuff I could have drawn directly. I wont cut them completely, but I think the times you play 4 are over. Spots are tiight and we have enough strong goblins now, so no need or time for tutors.

[ScatmanX]

Thanks! just needed some love =p

@Humphrey: How can you say Matron is the weakest slot in the deck, when she is, well, every slot in the deck?
Just have Sting directly.
Ringleader vs Control? You have 8.
-Drop another SGC ftw
Another Piledriver against combo? Well, there you go.
Usually way to slow. Also most list did cut Pile to 2, so I have it directly
Tuktuk? You got the picture already.
Play 2 Tuktuk instead
But like this you increase the chances of having the wrong goblin each time.
You may, when playing a Piledriver and a SGC instead of 2 Matrons, have the one you want the least on your hand instead of the other. OR, you can draw your 3rd Piledriver or 3rd SGC, when you really wanted a Ringleader, and you won't be able to go after them.

Also, imo, when you really want Tuktuk or Stingscourger, having 6 virtual copies of them is better than having "just" 4.

[mans0011]

mans0011, why did you decide to go with four Mogg Fanatics? Were you preparing for specific matchups? I don't like the fourth Pyrokinesis though because drawing it too often creates card disadvantage. I think three is the right number. Why do you have Tinkerer on SB but Tuktuk on MD? I use to keep Tinkerer in the MD because he is cheap, and is decent if my opponent doesn't have artifacts to destroy. Tuktuk gets sided in when I see Stoneforge. But I'd like to here your opinion. NICE REPORT THOUGH!


Fanatics was a St Louis metagame call. I expected lots of maverick, dredge, elves, goblins, and some Confidants. There were many times where Matron into Fanatic won me the game, either by providing that crucial piece of removal at the perfect price (Tarfar does the same here) on the spot, or being able to tutor it, play it, attack with it (pumping piledriver which they MUST block) due to Chieftain in play, and ping the opponent. Fanatic was beastly for me in the grinders against goblins, though I was running a 2/2 split on Fanatic and Marshal. I'm going to test a list that's much closer to Gobolord's and see how much I like it.

I think that you're correct about Pyrokinesis. While it's an amazing card and I can get behind 4 copies, I think that 3 is appropriate.

Tinkerer was lackluster for me all weekend. It's entirely possible that I'm just bad at Magic, but the only artifacts I really encountered were equipment. I didn't even once blow up an artifact lock piece, not even against MUD in round 1, haha! I had him main in the grinders and I found myself boarding him out frequently. (Side note: I am most certainly bad at sideboarding.)

The metagame here has a lot of Stoneblade, I wish I had prepared for it a bit better, both in card choices and in tactics. Oh well!

I think I may want 3 copies of Anarchy in the board. It's such a ridiculously good card for when you need it.

I don't have problems against reanimator, to be honest. Vial in Stingscourger is winning against them. Cage and Crypt just crush them. I had a guy turn 2 Elesh Norn me in the grinders, and I only had my 1 Stinger main. I probably should have played it out, but I think he had back up juice already working, so I just scooped. I crushed him the next two rounds, even before he could really get anything going. I know that Dredge is not the same as Reanimator, but when they dredge into an active Griselbrand and hit you with it. Twice. And you -still- win...? I think the match up is ok.

Still not sure about Red Elemental Blast. It's such a good card when you need it, too. I guess it really just depends on your metagame. It's ok against Sneak and Show, Jace, and other things, but Sneak Attack dodges that hate and Show and Tell you have goblins with amazing CITP triggers to find what you need.

I think I boarded in needles once or twice. I never cast one all weekend. I'm sure I boarded in Pyrokinesis many times when I should have just sided in Needles because I am a noob. Needle seems sick against Stoneblade (you have SO many targets!).

[magicmerl]

I think that there should be a new 'core' for the goblins deck.

Can we all (particularly Gobo) agree that the following cards should be in every goblins deck?

4 Goblin lackey
3 Goblin piledriver
4 Goblin matron
4 Goblin warchief
1 Goblin sharpshooter
4 Goblin ringleader
2 Krenko, mob boss
1 Siege-gang commander (now that Krenko is here, it's no longer a must to run 2)

4 Aether vial
3 Gempalm incinerator

21 Land (4 Wasteland, 4 Caverns mandatory)

That is 30 spells and 21 lands are accounted for. That is 51 cards in total, so you have 9 'flex' slots to play with, to get

1. 1-2 slots for more mana acceleration (land, chrom mox, prospector, winstigator)
2. 3-4 slots for more removal (Tarfire, Fanatic, Weirding, TukTuk, Stingscourger)
3. 0-1 slot for more 'Big' spells (KikiJiki, Wort)
4. everything else is more glue (Mogg War Marshall, Goblin King), plus extras of cards not already maxed out

Now, my gut feeling is that those 9 slots should be
1 Mountain (taking you up to 22)
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Mogg War Marshal

Although obviously that can change based on the environment.

That gives us 2 more mana, 3 more removal, and a bunch more cards that play well with Krenko. Yes?

2 Mogg War Marshal feels kinda weird. It's not a card you would tutor for so it should probably be run as a 3-4 of or not at all. I really want to run the 3rd MWM and Chieftain, but can't find the slots for it.

I know it's heresy to consider it, but is Goblin Piledriver necessary in the more token-centric builds that goblins is becoming?

[GoboLord]

I think that there should be a new 'core' for the goblins deck.

Can we all (particularly Gobo) agree that the following cards should be in every goblins deck?


No.
However I want to thank you for your insightful comments.
It's not possible that everyone agrees on "the list". The more cards you want to set in stone the less flexibility you allow - recently I have EX-cluded Piledrivers from the "Core" to make step in this very direction.

[woodjt5]

I think that there should be a new 'core' for the goblins deck.

Can we all (particularly Gobo) agree that the following cards should be in every goblins deck?

4 Goblin lackey
3 Goblin piledriver
4 Goblin matron
4 Goblin warchief
1 Goblin sharpshooter
4 Goblin ringleader
2 Krenko, mob boss
1 Siege-gang commander (now that Krenko is here, it's no longer a must to run 2)

4 Aether vial
3 Gempalm incinerator

21 Land (4 Wasteland, 4 Caverns mandatory)

That is 30 spells and 21 lands are accounted for. That is 51 cards in total, so you have 9 'flex' slots to play with, to get

1. 1-2 slots for more mana acceleration (land, chrom mox, prospector, winstigator)
2. 3-4 slots for more removal (Tarfire, Fanatic, Weirding, TukTuk, Stingscourger)
3. 0-1 slot for more 'Big' spells (KikiJiki, Wort)
4. everything else is more glue (Mogg War Marshall, Goblin King), plus extras of cards not already maxed out

Now, my gut feeling is that those 9 slots should be
1 Mountain (taking you up to 22)
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Mogg War Marshal

Although obviously that can change based on the environment.

That gives us 2 more mana, 3 more removal, and a bunch more cards that play well with Krenko. Yes?

2 Mogg War Marshal feels kinda weird. It's not a card you would tutor for so it should probably be run as a 3-4 of or not at all. I really want to run the 3rd MWM and Chieftain, but can't find the slots for it.

I know it's heresy to consider it, but is Goblin Piledriver necessary in the more token-centric builds that goblins is becoming?

My list is -1 Krenko, -1 Warchief, no SS in main, and only 2 piledrivers (WInstigator build.)

I'm also experimenting with 2 Chrome Mox due to ScatmanX's success with them, which leaves room for only 19 lands.

Nothing against your list, but I would just argue that other options exist and the "core" doesn't need to be updated.

[magicmerl]

No.
However I want to thank you for your insightful comments.

The difference between what you have in the OP and my list is
3 Goblin piledriver
1 Goblin sharpshooter
2 Krenko, mob boss
3 Gempalm Incinerator
- 1 Siege-Gang Commander

When I see a list that has less than 3 Incinerators for example, I just think it's wrong. Surely there's some consensus about this?


It's not possible that everyone agrees on "the list". The more cards you want to set in stone the less flexibility you allow - recently I have EX-cluded Piledrivers from the "Core" to make step in this very direction.
Yeah, I get that. But the more that goblins becomes a streamlined and tuned deck, doesn't the core grow and become more stable?

[feline]

I think I'm going to get a set of tarfire's for the sideboard, can net them with ringleader against creature aggro decks and there's enough stuff with toughness of 2 or less out there ^.^

I'm almost tempted to make even my entire sideboard all tribal goblin stuff, like tarfire, vexing shusher, but I can't actually promote doing that since there's no goblin graveyard hate, goblin anti fast combo hate, etc. As well between aether vial and cavern of souls, I am finding vexing shusher less needed in the sideboard, though it is fun to vial in a shusher, then cast a boil ! lol

[L10]

Tips:
* Vial is more important than Lackey in this MU
* don't overextend. you can usually build up some pressure with ~4 creatures. keep the rest in your hand to be able to rebuild your pressure after a Terminus
* play 4 Piledrivers
* play Sulfuric Vortex in your SB
* the REAL problem about this deck is not Terminus but Entreat the Angels. The more they run, the worse it is. usually they don't have any other win-condition apart from EtA
I agree with Gobo. Also, from my experience, pre sideboard, it is all about the race. Having Tinkerer to destroy Tops is awesome. The problem is post-board. Most decklists I have seen in my meta has 3-4 Moat/Humility. Moat you can get around with SGC. Humility just kills. Anarchy is a nice answer because it kills Moat, Humility, Elspeth, and Angels. Red Elemental Blast is also good for killing Jace and Clique. Needles are also good against Planeswalkers and Top. Otherwise, yeah, just race them. I guess we can always try to make our Kiki-Jiki/Crafter/Prospector infinite combo. :D ... j/k, kinda.

mans0011, I don't think you played badly. Though, against MUD, Tinkerer is fantastic. You can kill Voltaic Key, Mox Opal, and other cheap artifacts for days. I think Tinkerer is better then Tuktuk if you have five haste lords, mainly because he is potentially reusable. He can survive killing a Jitte with Chieftain online, and Batterskull the next turn. It rarely happens but feels great when it works. But Tuktuk is good if you just want to get the job done, for 4 mana. :/

feline, I tried an all goblins sideboard for fun once. Didn't do too well. lol It was fun to sideboard in Goatnapper against this one dude with Taurean Mauler (Dragon Stompy) and killing him with it. He was really mad. lol

@ Core
If we really want to limit the Core list, I think it is safe to just include:
4 Aether Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
These are our main engines. If we want to make the list as short as possible, this is probably it.

After the top 4, depending on the list, we would have a mix of Warchief and Winstigator as our engines.
4-8 Warchief / Winstigator
I'd be surprised to see a list that does well without Warchief and Winstigator. Our deck will be too slow.

After that, we can include our WinCon.
1-2 Krenko
1-2 SGC

[mans0011]

The difference between what you have in the OP and my list is
3 Goblin piledriver
1 Goblin sharpshooter
2 Krenko, mob boss
3 Gempalm Incinerator
- 1 Siege-Gang Commander

When I see a list that has less than 3 Incinerators for example, I just think it's wrong. Surely there's some consensus about this?

Yeah, I get that. But the more that goblins becomes a streamlined and tuned deck, doesn't the core grow and become more stable?

I agree, though I could see 2. You had just better have a great reason for less than 3. I also think that anything less than 2 Piledrivers is a mistake.

[magicmerl]

After the top 4, depending on the list, we would have a mix of Warchief and Winstigator as our engines.
4-8 Warchief / Winstigator
I'd be surprised to see a list that does well without Warchief and Winstigator. Our deck will be too slow.
Why do you think that Winstigator is necessary? Isn't this (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47089) the only really significant result Goblins has had recently? It doesn't run Winstigator. I ran it a while back and found it to be a little awkward to cast, fragile, and sometimes, ran out of stuff to cheat into play.

It's like buying a $1 lottery ticket for a chance to win $1,000,000 (lackey). And with a $2 lottery ticket you have a chance to win $2,000,000 (Winstigator). That second million is worth SO much worth than the first million it's not funny.


I agree, though I could see 2. You had just better have a great reason for less than 3. I also think that anything less than 2 Piledrivers is a mistake.

Yeah. But the thing is, you want to draw Piledrivers, not tutor for them, right? It seems to me that cards we want to draw should be a 4-of. Cards that are too expensive to run 4-of we can run 2-3 of. Cards we want to tutor for can be a 1-of. Anything else means that we have built the deck a little incorrectly. Yes?

[L10]

Winstigator is not necessary. Most decks just settle with 4 Warchiefs. But if you do run a Winstiagor list, you probably don't need a set of Warchiefs. Maybe a 3/3 split between Winstigator or Warchief. If you do not have Winstigator, your probably want a set of Warchiefs. Though, I have scene lists with a 3/3 split between Warchief and Cheiftain as haste lords. Winstigator can be awesome if your deck was tailored around it.

[Hencules]

I was just browsing through the 'to-be-tested-cards', and saw Sensation Gorger. It seems really cool. What matchups benefit more from those extra cards than we do? We know we get at least one extra goblin out of it.


Plus it also lets us draw lands and removal which ringleader does not. Don't get me wrong, I'm not planning of replacing ringleader with one of these, but perhaps use 1 or 2 flexslots for them. What decks would benefit more from it? My guess is all unfair decks & stoneblade.

[daPaule]

[...] Sensation Gorger.[...]

As you already mentioned unfair decks, yeah I wouldn't try it vs Dredge. But as it's a may you would still get a 2/2 for 3 out of it... which quite sucks.

Anyhow regarding stoneblade: I don't think so. They aren't so low on cards. So a normal control, holding counters / removal wouldn't like to get those discarded during your upkeep. Still I think in the current meta it wouldn't be so good. Decks like RUG would rather fire off what they have in hand in response to the trigger. Could be worth a try.

In theory it's a draw 4 every turn as by T4 you might be able to dump your hand every turn, concerning vial, lackey, warchiefs...

[Humphrey]

Almost all decks can use the graveyard as a resource, exept us. I wouldnt try it :rolleyes:

[Cleston]

Hello fellow lackeys,

First of all, I should say I'm new to the board and to the legacy format, while being a long time player of the game.

This topic is great and very well organized, the primer on the first post is up to date with the hundreds of pages, which really helps newcomers (the same cannot be said of other archetypes, but I digress).

I'm decided to work on a Goblin list, and this thread has provided much food for thought, and then more. Thanks for all of you for the good work, and I hope I can keep the momentum going as soon as I get my own test results available.



I have 2cents to share with you guys on two topics:

@Core: I agree with the limited core proposed by L10 as a consensus, a safe, sure and tried list of 16 pieces that you should be using in your deck, for the sake of being called a vial goblin deck. The last lines of discussion have made me think that the core listed at the beggining might be suitable for a reduction. For example, one could wonder if 4 Cavern of Souls are also part of this core, or not. In my opinion 3 Gempalm Incinerator should be totally into the core, but I can see some going other ways.

Again, this would be what I'd call "consensus core" (blame me) proposed by L10 (blame him, hehe):
4 Aether Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

From here on, there are clearly different paths. Some use Chrome Mox + Warren Instigator "package", while others go usual ways like Chieftain, Warchief. There seems to be a debate now between Siege-Gang and Krenko as well, while some lists now have totally dropped the mana denial suite...

Instead of disagreeing if they are part of the core or not, we could reduce the core and the develop the idea of packages (as discussed in the Maverick thread, for example).

Just an idea, though.



@Rite of Flame

I haven't seen much of this card being discussed. In my fresh brainstorming of a goblin list (by fresh I mean without looking at the state of the art) it featured as an option. It could be an accelerator for WI, double lackey, lackey+vial, etc. Not to mention that in multiples it's not so bad as Chrome Mox, and it won't step you back a card as the artifact does. You could also do T1 Lackey, T2 Rite of Flame to Matron, search for SGC to cheat into play with Lackey (while without Rite you would have to Matron for SGC if it's not in your hand and have it played next turn).

Of course I can see downsides as well, such as it being a bad topdeck on a clean board, but the same can be said for Chrome Mox. An argument could also be made to it being countered on T1 by FOW or MM, but then I'd rather have the ritual countered than losing my key pieces, not to mention that the next ritual would be better.

I'd like to hear you guys on this card, and if it has already been discussed please point me to the corresponding page. I mean to test it anyways to see how it fares, though I wouldn't know what to drop.

That's all for a first post :)

[L10]

Welcome, Cleston! I use to run a set of Rite of Flames in my Winstigator deck a while ago. I went with the more offensive route with 16 Mountain and 4 Wastelands. I recently tried Rite of Flames with a set Caverns in my Winstigator deck and it felt awkward for not getting legit red source in turn 1. 14 Mountains may be doable, but 16 felt right. I do prefer Rite of Flame over Chrome Mox overall because it doesn't lead to card disadvantage. A turn 1 Piledriver is pretty good too. Also, a late game Rite of Flame may not be bad. You can always fuel SCG. And with a good Ringleader, Rite of Flames may come in handy. So yeah, Rite of Flame is a good alternative from my testing, if you have a healthy amount of Mountains. But with the printing of Cavern of Souls, my mana base has become much more greedy. Sometimes, I can't turn 2 Gempalm for Lackey when I need to.

[magicmerl]

Hello fellow lackeys,

First of all, I should say I'm new to the board and to the legacy format, while being a long time player of the game.
Welcome Cleston.


There seems to be a debate now between Siege-Gang and Krenko as well,
Well, I think that they are the top end of the curve, but clearly there's such a thing as running too many of them. I think that there is definitely room for 1 SGC and 1 Krenko. If you want a third finisher, it probably goes to the 2nd SGC. If you are ok with 4, the 2nd Krenko. etc etc


while some lists now have totally dropped the mana denial suite...
Only Port. Wasteland is still a 4-of in every list.


@Rite of Flame

I haven't seen much of this card being discussed. In my fresh brainstorming of a goblin list (by fresh I mean without looking at the state of the art) it featured as an option. It could be an accelerator for WI, double lackey, lackey+vial, etc. Not to mention that in multiples it's not so bad as Chrome Mox, and it won't step you back a card as the artifact does. You could also do T1 Lackey, T2 Rite of Flame to Matron, search for SGC to cheat into play with Lackey (while without Rite you would have to Matron for SGC if it's not in your hand and have it played next turn).

Of course I can see downsides as well, such as it being a bad topdeck on a clean board, but the same can be said for Chrome Mox. An argument could also be made to it being countered on T1 by FOW or MM, but then I'd rather have the ritual countered than losing my key pieces, not to mention that the next ritual would be better.

I'd like to hear you guys on this card, and if it has already been discussed please point me to the corresponding page. I mean to test it anyways to see how it fares, though I wouldn't know what to drop.

That's all for a first post :)
This is a very interesting point. It does seem very close to Chrome Mox as a card. My thoughts turn to
1. Is Rite of Flame better than Chrome Mox
2. If they are close and we're clearly not considering Rite, then perhaps Mox is also not good enough

[GoboLord]

Hello fellow lackeys,

First of all, I should say I'm new to the board and to the legacy format, while being a long time player of the game.

This topic is great and very well organized, the primer on the first post is up to date with the hundreds of pages, which really helps newcomers (the same cannot be said of other archetypes, but I digress).

I'm decided to work on a Goblin list, and this thread has provided much food for thought, and then more. Thanks for all of you for the good work, and I hope I can keep the momentum going as soon as I get my own test results available.



I have 2cents to share with you guys on two topics:

@Core: I agree with the limited core proposed by L10 as a consensus, a safe, sure and tried list of 16 pieces that you should be using in your deck, for the sake of being called a vial goblin deck. The last lines of discussion have made me think that the core listed at the beggining might be suitable for a reduction. For example, one could wonder if 4 Cavern of Souls are also part of this core, or not. In my opinion 3 Gempalm Incinerator should be totally into the core, but I can see some going other ways.

Again, this would be what I'd call "consensus core" (blame me) proposed by L10 (blame him, hehe):
4 Aether Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

From here on, there are clearly different paths. Some use Chrome Mox + Warren Instigator "package", while others go usual ways like Chieftain, Warchief. There seems to be a debate now between Siege-Gang and Krenko as well, while some lists now have totally dropped the mana denial suite...

Instead of disagreeing if they are part of the core or not, we could reduce the core and the develop the idea of packages (as discussed in the Maverick thread, for example).

Just an idea, though.



@Rite of Flame

I haven't seen much of this card being discussed. In my fresh brainstorming of a goblin list (by fresh I mean without looking at the state of the art) it featured as an option. It could be an accelerator for WI, double lackey, lackey+vial, etc. Not to mention that in multiples it's not so bad as Chrome Mox, and it won't step you back a card as the artifact does. You could also do T1 Lackey, T2 Rite of Flame to Matron, search for SGC to cheat into play with Lackey (while without Rite you would have to Matron for SGC if it's not in your hand and have it played next turn).

Of course I can see downsides as well, such as it being a bad topdeck on a clean board, but the same can be said for Chrome Mox. An argument could also be made to it being countered on T1 by FOW or MM, but then I'd rather have the ritual countered than losing my key pieces, not to mention that the next ritual would be better.

I'd like to hear you guys on this card, and if it has already been discussed please point me to the corresponding page. I mean to test it anyways to see how it fares, though I wouldn't know what to drop.

That's all for a first post :)

Welcome fellow Warchief,

I'd like to respond to several ideas of your high-quality posting:

(1)
First of all, I'm glad to hear that this thread is organized. YOu are not the first one to say that this thread is a good read - a huge part of which is made possible by people who are posting tournament- and testing-results on a regular basis while keeping up a constructive and friendly atmosphere.

(2)
About the Core or "Concensus Core" or whatever you call it: The difference between the current Core" and what you and L10 suggested is 4 Warchiefs and 2 SGCs. I've spent considerable time on testing Goblin Warchief's performance after having him replaced by Chieftain for over a year. I cannot put in words how much Warchief is. So this card is IMO absolute core-stuff and it will stay there. Since I don't want to go into details regarding his performance (especially in contrast to Chieftain) you just have to believe me here.
However, I'm not sure wether 2 SGC is the correct number. It's taken for gratned that 2 SGCs have served many people well (enough) - so just take this number as a point of departure. Just yesterday I had an long discussion with a friend of mine regarding SGCs role in the deck (which was followed by a series of 7-hours-highly-concentrated-playtesting-session with SGCs being the card in question). We figured out that (1) it is not a good idea to replace SGC with Krenko (the Krenko/SGC-spot was always in favor of SGC when I drew it naturally) and (2) that I never needed a 2nd SGC but that at least 1 copy is an absolute must-have.
So, unless someone comes up with really, really convincing testing results on the number of SGC I will not delete him from the Core cards.
However, (and this one is important for all of you): I'm not the Goblin-Guru, I've just written the deckprimer. You do not need my permission to cut Warchiefes from the Core. The deckprimer is not a user-manual for Goblins. If anyone is thinking that Warchiefs should not be in the Core then it's fine for me - and for everyone. It's your deck. It's your game.

(3)
I like the idea of developing "packages" for the deck since we worked out quite some card interactions that are frequently played together in the same list (e.g. Skirk Prospector + MWM + Sharpshooter or Chieftain + Winstigator or you name it). SInce we are basically all working on the same deck, will some people please post some ideas for packages (aka. cards that you think should be played alongside eachother?).
I'm really curious if it works for Goblins. Thanks for this one - very good idea.

(4)
Rite of Flame (as far as I know we haven't discussed it yet) vs. Chrome Mox: I tested it once when I was looking for additional "ramp" -mana accel. However, I ended up using Chrome Mox since it is a permanent mana-source (which I found more apealing than those other cards that "only" give you speed). I'd be glad to hear your testing results on this - I will directly add them to the primer.

[L10]

I do think a set of Warchiefs belong in the Core because 99% of all goblins decks run a set of them. The only goblin decks that doesn't need a full set is Winstigator, but even then, I still run with a 3/3 split between Warchief and Winstigator. Warchief is too good to cut out completely, imo. So I actually think the core list should look like this:

Core (20)
4 Aether Vial
4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
Twenty is also a nicer number.

Regarding about SGC vs. Krenko, I have done a ton of testings lately, and I absolutely fell in love with Krenko, especially with 6-7 haste lords. Krenko has been winning me more games than SGC. Sometimes, I would Matron for Krenko instead of Ringleader, if Chieftain is in play. Here is why: If I go for Ringleader, I am essentially getting a 3/3 body and two random goblins. Sometimes, the draw is game-winning, sometimes, the draw is dead. But with Krenko, I am usually guaranteed a 4/4 body and make 4+ 2/2 hasty gobos prime for the offensive. If Krenko lives for round 2, it is pretty much game. This has happened a couple of games already. It's no fluke.

Though, I don't know how many Krenko and SGC belongs in the deck. I am currently playing with 2 Krenkos and 1 SGC, but I want a 2/2 split. Krenko can be underwhelming with just a playset of Warchiefs though. But with two or more Chieftain and a set of Warchiefs, he does work.

[(nameless one)]

L10, how does your 60 look like?

23 Lands/20 Core/2Chieftain/4 Piledriver/2 Krenko/1SCG/Xx?

[mrblueduck]

I do think a set of Warchiefs belong in the Core because 99% of all goblins decks run a set of them.

This is the type of thing that plagues forums like this one, and makes it hard for decks to advance. Rather then looking at what everyone else is doing I would just love to hear a discussion of the merits of Warchief over Chieftain. I am tired of hearing the results speak for themselves. (because quite frankly I am not sure they do.) I like everyone else used to run Warchief over Chieftain, but when asked why I had a very difficult time articulating why. It took me very extensive testing to come to the conclusion that perhaps Chieftain is where you want to be at. So please take some serious time in responding, I am interested in hearing both sides.

[woodjt5]

RE: Warchief v. Chieftan:

Let me start by saying that I run a WInstigator list, not necessarily because it is better, but because I believe that it is just as good and it fits my play-style better.

I started out running 4 Chieftains and no Warchiefs. Almost immediately I switched to 4 Chieftans and 1 Warchief so that I could Matron for the chief if I needed him, but I was finding that he was also very good when drawn naturally. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has played a lot of Goblins. Warchief is good.

At the SCG Invitational in Baltimore I switched to a 3-2 split and went 3-1 in Legacy (2-2 technically, but I had the win on board and blew it, so lets say the deck went 3-1 and I went 2-2). All day Chieftan was good, and so was Warchief. Both are almost always good.

When Krenko was spoiled (RIP Kiki-Jiki, it's been fun), I decided that I wanted 6 haste enablers, and upped the numbers to 3 of each, and I really like this split. It allows for the muscle of chieftan AND the speed of Warchief, with 6 ways to ensure that Krenko can tap immediately.

Something that I believe is overblown is the lack of synergy between Warchief and WInstigator. WI and Warchief may be slightly less synergistic than Warchief and the rest of the Goblins in the deck, but they still work well. Warchief STILL gives WInstigator Haste, and he only costs 2 to begin with, so the cost is very rarely an issue. In the words of Joe Biden, haste is a BIG FUCKING DEAL on Warren Instigator. A common play is to vial in a 3-drop haste enabler or WI, and then just cast the other one and swing. Boom. Game over. I cannot emphasize enough how devastating a hasted WInstigator is. I can realistically tell you that I have won over 80% of the games in which I've connected with him, no matter the matchup.

Another overlooked synergy is BETWEEN Warchief and Chieftan. Vial in Warchief, cast Chieftan, cast MWM, swing for 9 off of nothing but a vial and 3 mountains. At the end of the day, both are going to be very good, and both let Krenko tap immediately, which is what we want these days at the top of our "chain."

Where I'm going with this is here: I don't understand how you play Goblins without some number of Warchiefs. At least 1, most likely 2, should probably be in the core. Does anyone here run less than 2 and feel otherwise? I'd love to hear your points.

For reference, this is my current list, which I am testing in preparation for SCGDC (I'm back and forth on the Moxes):

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wastelands
11 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey

3 Warren Instigator
3 Mogg War-Marshall
2 Stingscourger
2 Goblin Piledriver

4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain

4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

1 Siege-Gang Commander

3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tarfire

SB:
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Graffdigger's Cage
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

I hope this was helpful. The most likely changes are +1 Gempalm for something, or switching back to mountains from the Moxes. I'll keep you guys up to date on the testing process.

[L10]

mrblueduck , we have extensively talked about Warchief vs. Cheiftain for a while now. In this thread and the old thread. To be honest, I don't even categorize Warchief and Chieftain together, even if many people do because both creatures gives haste. I rather compare Chieftain to Goblin King as +1/+1 lords.

The problem with goblins is that we run many cards with high CMC; Matron costs 3, Ringleader costs 4, SGC costs 5. That's a pretty high curve compared to most Legacy decks. We can cheat them in through Vial, Lackey, or Winstigator. But eventually, we have to cast them. This is where Warchief comes in.

Let's say we have Vial @ 3, 2 Ports, and 3 Mountains in play.
Scenario 1: Chieftain in play
1. We Vial in Matron for Ringleader
2. We cast Ringleader for 4 and get Lackey, MWM, Piledriver, and Gempalm
In this case, the only thing we can do is cast Lackey.
Scenario 2: Warchief in play
1. We Vial in Matron for Ringleader
2. We cast Ringleader for 3 and get Lackey, MWM, Piledriver, and Gempalm
Now we have two options. We can play MWM and Piledriver. Or, we can use Gempalm if there is a threat.

Warchief allows us to abuse our manabase. Warchief + Skirk Prospect also turn MWM into a red Dark Ritual if we need it. This is why I call Warchief an engine. Chieftain is not an engine. Chieftain is great when we have an army. Warchief helps us get there. They play different roles. I can go on, but seriously, we have all played games where Warchief just "combos" off a Ringleader and swing for the Alpha Strike.

(nameless one), here is my current list. It is not perfect. I want to run more MWM and more Chieftains, but just can't find room.

// Lands [22]
10 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls

// Core [20]
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

// Others [18]
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Skirk Prospector

// Sideboard
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Stingscourger
2 Pyroblast
2 Anarchy
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Relic of Progenitus

I have a singleton Goblin Tinkerer because I wanted an additional answer to Jitte. In my original list, I run with 4 MWM, 2 SGC, and no Chieftains. Because now I have Chieftains, I can't use Sharpshooter as a ghetto solution against Jitte as often with 1/1 gobos. I can replace Tinkerer with SGC but SGC doesn't help in the early game. Also, with 6 haste lords, Tinkerer is actually pretty good. Tinkerer can kill Top and still live. With Chieftain, Tinkerer can survive Jitte, primed for Batterskull. Against decks that relies artifacts (Stoneforge, Counter Top, etc), Tinkerer can also act as Spellskite, which is neat.

I only have 4 kill spells but Gempalm is the only kill spell that was ever good for me. Sometimes, I just need a cantrip. But yeah, I am still working on the list.

[mrblueduck]

thanks to woodjt5 and L10 for looking into the question. However I feel like woodtj5 focused mostly on why he choose to do a split, and not rather why either are good options. L10 says it pretty clearly, Warchief can better, because it uses resources much more efficiently and allows goblin players to dump there hand more quickly/ abuse our resources. However this is ignoring the other spectrum, and that is creature efficiency. This approach seems to be essentially sacrificing creature efficiency for resource efficiency.

[Ace/Homebrew]

The deckprimer is not a user-manual for Goblins. If anyone is thinking that Warchiefs should not be in the Core then it's fine for me - and for everyone. It's your deck. It's your game.

^ This ^

Continuing the discussion!
To me the core (what I cannot imagine a goblin deck not to contain) is:
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

Really Wasteland is in there too. Removal like Gempalm Incinerator does not belong in this list. A few months ago Tarfire was my go to when SFM was all around me. A shifting meta makes it hard to call cards like these core unless you want to frequently revise what core means.

I'm a big fan of the "packages" idea. I am testing a slight modification on Scatman's list. WInstigator is more my style. I see package potential in Winstigator/Chieftain and Piledriver/Warchief. Piley seems good when the meta turns fishy.

I also think Krenko, Mob Boss, Siege-Gang Commander, Wort, Boggart Auntie, Lightning Crafter, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker could be considered "high-end" (or whatever) goblins. It's not so much that any of them are core, but you're going to run X number in your 75.

Chrome Mox is my preferred acceleration. Realistically how much acceleration do you want? 4 Rite of Flame seems really bad. Testing could prove me wrong, but I've already stated what I'm using. I currently have 1 maindeck with either 1 or 2 in the board. Ringleader rarely makes me regret imprinting a goblin. And a turn 1 WInstigator is just so much fun to play.

@Clenston: Welcome

@L10: With 4 Cavern of Souls, Gempalm Incinerator is not as good but Stingscourger is fantastic for clearing Lackey's way!

[Ace/Homebrew]

thanks to woodjt5 and L10 for looking into the question. However I feel like woodtj5 focused mostly on why he choose to do a split, and not rather why either are good options. L10 says it pretty clearly, Warchief can better, because it uses resources much more efficiently and allows goblin players to dump there hand more quickly/ abuse our resources. However this is ignoring the other spectrum, and that is creature efficiency. This approach seems to be essentially sacrificing creature efficiency for resource efficiency.

I believe Warchief is the better of the two maindeckable lords when used together with Aether Vial, Piledriver, Wasteland, and Rishadan Port. Being able to deny your opponents mana while making your spells easier to play and immediate threats is huge.
Being able to vial in Warchief with three mana, play Matron into Piledriver, attack for 8 is nuts. Warchief allows that.

When you cut any of those cards, Chieftain begins to look better. Especially if the cards you are putting in have RR in the cost.

[Humphrey]

Core
I thought the definition of core was the most played cards in standard goblin lists and those are definitely

4 Vial
4 Waste
4 Lackey
4 Ringleader
4 Matron
4 Warchief
2 SCG

and then there are the "secondary corecards"

2-4 Piledriver
2-4 Gempalm Incinierator
0-4 Ports

Also it was just invented to shorten decklists in the first place, so its nowhere meant to be the "core you never touch"

I think the "diamond core" is

4 Vial
4 Waste
4 Lackey
4 Ringleader

There will never be a goblindeck without those. (unless youre low budged) Also I think its safe to say that 4 Cavern of Souls are going to join it.


Warchief vs Chieftain

I run 6 Haste enablers since Chieftain was printed, a 4-2 Spilt first. I think that should be pretty much standard. A 3-3 or even 2-4 split can be more useful if you have a lot of token producers - MWMs, Krenkos, 2+ SGC

SGC

Imo the strongest play is first turn lackey into SGC. A LOT of decks just fold to that. The evaluation I did to update my list, I started with 4 Lackey 4 Winstigator 4 SGC 4 Stinscourger 4 Gempalm 2 Krenko to maximize this "combo" move. In testings I did change the configuration to what it is now.

One of the possible configurations of the deck ofc. If you prefer the grindy route use MWM

Mana Acceleration

Cute but I think its totally crap. Better take a mulligan on Lackey/Vial before you add craptastic topdecks to the deck. The only thing I can imagine is Brightstone Ritual to go insane midgame. (Helps against ETW too, lulz)

[supachai]

Following up on the discussion of the core and packages, here is my take on everything:

Core core:
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

Recommended core:
4 Goblin Warchief
2-4 Goblin Piledriver
1-2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

Recommended removal suite (5+ recommended)
3-4 Gempalm Incinerator
1-2 Stingscourger
0-1 Tarfire
0-2 Pyrokinesis
0-1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Proposed packages:

Token theme package:
3 Mogg War Marshal + 2-3 Goblin Chieftain + 1-2 Krenko + 1-2 SGC
-swarm strategy; explosive but can also play defensively

Sharpshooter package:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter + 1 Skirk Prospector + 2-3 Mogg War Marshall
-good against Jitte, Dredge, picking off small creatures

Instigator package:
2 Chrome Mox + 2-4 Warren Instigator + 1-3 Goblin Chieftain + Slightly larger removal suite
(not sure on this one- I don't play Instigator)
-very explosive

Some other ideas for packages might include different color splash packages, heavy-removal suite, etc. There's also some small synergies like how Stingscourger plays nicely with Warchief and Cheiftain, but not sure if that kinda stuff warrants a whole package.

What does everyone think?

[magicmerl]

Proposed packages:

Token theme package:
3 Mogg War Marshal + 2-3 Goblin Chieftain + 1-2 Krenko + 1-2 SGC
-swarm strategy; explosive but can also play defensively

Sharpshooter package:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter + 1 Skirk Prospector + 2-3 Mogg War Marshall
-good against Jitte, Dredge, picking off small creatures

Instigator package:
2 Chrome Mox + 2-4 Warren Instigator + 1-3 Goblin Chieftain + Slightly larger removal suite
(not sure on this one- I don't play Instigator)
-very explosive

Some other ideas for packages might include different color splash packages, heavy-removal suite, etc. There's also some small synergies like how Stingscourger plays nicely with Warchief and Cheiftain, but not sure if that kinda stuff warrants a whole package.

What does everyone think?
It's interesting that 2 of your 3 packages lean on multiple copies of Mogg War Marshal and Goblin Chieftain.

I think that's telling.

[Vandalize]

Why is everyone so busy talking about "Core Cards"? You should be stomping face with Krenko.

[magicmerl]

Why is everyone so busy talking about "Core Cards"? You should be stomping face with Krenko.
It's because Krenko is *so* powerful that he distorts the deck around him (in the same way that Lackey and Ringleader do). This leads to the following lines of thought:


1. Krenko is a late game finisher. Everyone agrees that the previous best finishers was Siege-Gang Commander. But people also ran things like KikiJiki and Wort. At this stage it appears that Krenko is at worst the second best finisher (either just ahead of or just behind SGC).
This means that we need to consider how many finishers we want to run. Traditionally that number has been 2-3. Should it become 4, with a 2/2 split of SGC and Krenko? Or 3, and if so, do you run a 2nd copy of SGC or Krenko? Or one of each? Or is just 2 SGC still all you need?


2. Krenko wants about 3-4 other goblins in play to start working his magic. He also creates situations where you overwhelm the opponent, making aggressive starts where you start pressuring them from the get go less necessary to win the game.
This means that early goblins which can create tokens and block profitably (Mogg War Marshall) are more valuable to us than they were previously. Similarly, aggro duders that are poor blockers (Piledriver) are less valuable. How many MWM should we run? How many 2 drops in total? Should/could we consider running some MWM *instead* of Piledrivers?


3. Krenko is roughly twice as good when he comes in with haste (since you need to activate him twice to blow the opponent out, so when he has haste he's kind-of like resolving battle of wits, you win after you next untap).
This means that you always want to have a lord in play. How many Goblin Chieftains should we run? How many 'lords' in total? Should/could we consider running some Chieftains *instead* of Warchiefs?


That's the different lines of thought that I see swirling around the newest goblin baddie. And that's also what I see as being the 'core' discussion as well. Some changes need to be made to accommodate Krenko and his homeys. The question is cards should get cut to fit him in and to what extent the deck should be distorted around him.

e.g.
Extreme distortion: 2 Krenko, 3 Chieftain, 4 MWM
Moderate distortion: 2 Krenko, 2 Chieftain, 2 MWM
merely accommodating: 1 Krenko, 1 Chieftain

Yes?

[Vandalize]

Hmm, why not just try some numbers and see?

I mean, my latest list is Jim Davis' a little tweaked.

4 Aether Vial

4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Goblin Chieftain

5 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Rishadan Port
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Stingscourger
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

[supachai]

It's interesting that 2 of your 3 packages lean on multiple copies of Mogg War Marshal and Goblin Chieftain.

I think that's telling.

What is it telling of?

And yes, I've always sworn by 3 MWM + 3 Chieftain. Krenko just fits in perfectly with that strategy.

[magicmerl]

What is it telling of?

And yes, I've always sworn by 3 MWM + 3 Chieftain. Krenko just fits in perfectly with that strategy.
It's telling me that perhaps those are more than fringe cards, since they synergise so well with other cards.

[supachai]

It's telling me that perhaps those are more than fringe cards, since they synergise so well with other cards.

I certainly agree with that. Especially with the printing of Krenko, Chieftain and MWM are excellent choices. The reason I included them in packages is that there are still people who run other options. Chieftain is usually only a singleton while MWM is missing entirely from a lot of decklists. Some of those opt to run Instigator too.

I think it's a direction that the deck may be moving toward, and I'm all for it. The "token package" has been consistently strong in my experience. It can fend off aggro much more easily, make Gempalms better, survives against Plague better, and with 7 haste lords + Krenko, can be very explosive.

[Final Fortune]

FWIW, Mogg War Marshal just gives a lot of other cards additional value, from fogging a Tarmogoyf and putting 2 1/1 tokens into play to having the additional creature for Gempalm Incinerator, Golbin Piledriver or Goblin chief the incremental advantages add up to always being a solid investment. Instigator is just a huge risk, because it either gets there and drops your hand or just sits around and does nothing of value vs a lone blocker.

Also I think Mogg War Marshal and Gempalm Incinerators and Instigators and Stingscourgers are just two completely different packages, because with Instigators you want as many Stingcourgers as possible just to clear the path and unload the rest of your hand.

[Hencules]

Also I think Mogg War Marshal and Gempalm Incinerators and Instigators and Stingscourgers are just two completely different packages, because with Instigators you want as many Stingcourgers as possible just to clear the path and unload the rest of your hand.

True enough, but when you get an instigator, you'd rather be able to remove their guys with incinerator, because that also gets you another card which might be interesting to cheat into play with instigator.

[Final Fortune]

True enough, but when you get an instigator, you'd rather be able to remove their guys with incinerator, because that also gets you another card which might be interesting to cheat into play with instigator.

Not really, getting thru' Tarmogoyf is pretty much the difference between winning the game with Instigator or not winning the game with Instigator right then and there, anything you could've removed with Gempalm Incinerator for 1 you could've removed with a Mogg Fanatic regardless. Maybe you want Tarfire or Warren Weirding if you splash black, but Incinerator is always pretty meh and Mogg Fanatic is extremely hit or miss.

So when you're playing Instigator, I think you want the absolute best removal as opposed to the most cost efficient, versatile and card advantageous removal.

[Cleston]

fellow lackeys, it's great to see the thread flowing so well. Here are some tidbits about my latest shufflings with this deck.

Back to the Warren Instigator matter: I decided to put it aside as of now, since the accelerators for it on turn one are either not reliable at all (rite of flame) or would produce card disadvantage (chrome mox). The reason I was using him was for a turn one better-lackey, and for that I was devoting so many resources to accelerate it into play that it wouldn't pay off. Maybe if we get a better accelerator for turn one it would be a more consistent play, worth coming back to.

Another problem I felt with Rite of Flame was mentioned already, the lack of a red source turn one due to cavern of souls. Meh. A pity, because a turn one Rite of Flame would shield your first spell from Daze, leaving only FOW for the gruesome Vial counter. I'll also leave it on a "maybe someday" pile.


The haste lords debate was a nice read as well, but I'm still not willing to drop Warchief. The mana reduction just seems so nice that it hurts me to cut one. I'm currently using the 4-2 split, though I could see myself goingo to 3-3 due to the token production package Im currently running.

While I'm at it, here follows my last list:

22 Lands:
4 Wastelands
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mountain
4 Boodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Taiga
2 Badlands

16 Reduced Core:
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

6 Haste-lords:
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain

12 Token team:
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Goblin Piledriver
1 Skirk Prospector

5 Removal:
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger


Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Perish
3 Krosan Grip
3 Red elemental Blast
2 Goblin Tinkerer

there just so much to say about what has been already said here, but unfortunately I lack the time right now. Hope to have more to say after the weekend :)

EDIT: edited because I was saying stupid things and apparently I am not able to count up to 60.

[Davran]

Took down my local 10 man last night with the following list:

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Warren Instigator
2x Goblin Piledriver
2x Stingscourger
2x Siege-gang Commander
2x Mogg War Marshal
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

3x Tarfire
4x Aether Vial

17x Mountain
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:
3x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Pyrokinesis
2x TukTuk Scrapper
2x Anarchy

First things first - No Krenko or Cavern simply because I don't own any. Money is a little tight right now, and I would run them if I had them.

Round 1 vs. Elves

My opponent admits that he hasn't played legacy in some years, so this will probably be a freebie for me. We have a laugh, I lose the die roll, and we're off. He makes some elves, I make some goblins, we enter a stalemate. I draw a couple Gempalms, allowing me to get in for a bunch of damage. Finally, I hit a Matron for Sharpshooter, and we're off to game 2.

Sideboarding: -2x Aether Vial, +2x Pyrokinesis

This game goes much like the first. He makes some elves, I cast some removal, and eventually Matron finds me Sharpshooter. My opponent laments that he underestimated the amount of removal I was packing, and reveals that he decided against running 2x Elephant Grass in his sideboard. Dodged a bullet on that one!

1-0

Round 2 vs. W/R Humans? (This seemed like a standard deck)

I win the die roll, casting a Lackey that connects into a Chieftain. My opponent is never really in it as I have a Gempalm for his turn 2 play. Lackey connects again into Piledriver. I draw a Tarfire for his turn 3 dork, and he scoops.

Sideboarding: -4x Aether Vial, +2x Pyrokinesis +2x Anarchy (he had a bunch of cards that make 1/1 white tokens)

My turn 1 lackey is stalled by his tokens, but I eventually cast a Chieftain and some removal for the win. Warren Instigator was amazing here, as it forced him to block and the first strike ate a token, allowing me to win the following turn.

2-0

Round 3 vs. Pox

I once again lose the die roll, but keep an aggressive hand. Turn 1 Lackey connects into Siege-gang, and I run him over before he can really do anything of consequence.

Sideboarding: -2x Tarfire -2x Gempalm Incinerator, -1x Sharpshooter +3x Thorn of Amethyst +2x TukTuk Scrapper (I know he has Ensnaring Bridge in his board from scouting)

I keep a slower hand with 2x Matron and a Ringleader figuring on the long game. He Inquisitions me turn 1, taking my Instigator. I draw and cast a Vial. He drops back to back Mishra's Factory, but blocks greedily with them. I'm able to wasteland one, but he drops a Crucible of Worlds. Lucky for me, he decides to spend his turns casting and retracing Raven's Crime making me discard several useless mountains and otherwise wasting his turn. I eventually Matron into a Ringleader, which nets me 3 goblins. He's dead a few attacks later.

3-0

Round 4 vs. Hypergenesis

My opponent is a friend of mine, and we have been trash-talking back and forth about this match-up for weeks. He's sure he has me, and I'm sure I have him.

I win the die roll, resolve a Lackey and pass. I'm hoping that he doesn't go off here, as my hand is quite aggressive but soft to an Emrakul (no Matron or Stinger). Lucky for me he drops a land and passes. Lackey connects into Siege-gang, and I pass. He draws, plays a land, and passes. I rip a Chieftain, cast it, and he scoops.

Sideboarding: -1x Sharpshooter -3x Tarfire -2x Gempalm Incinerator, +3x Chalice of the Void +3x Thorn of Amethyst

I keep a mediocre opener that is strong against Hypergenesis. He plays a land and passes. I rip a Chalice off the top, cast a Vial as bait and drop the Chalice for zero. My opponent groans, lamenting that he doesn't have a counter and it resolves. He casts the 2/2 cascade guy, choosing not to cast Hypergenesis. I see an Ingot Chewer, but it gets shuffled back into his deck somewhere. Gempalm eats his guy, Instigator connects into two goblins, and the game ends a few turns later.


Some notes/impressions:

4x Gempalm Incinerator was amazing. I have been running less than that recently due to my opponents packing more removal and/or large creatures...it seems like that has changed.

Sharpshooter is great as always. It completely locked the elves player out both games.

There were several board states where I absolutely would have cast Matron for Krenko if I had one. It would have been an immediate win for sure.

This list turned out to be very fast, and packing so much removal just enabled it. I won most games by turn 5 without even really trying, even while playing around Damnation from the Pox player and Terminus from the R/W deck.

**EDIT: fixed the Hypergenesis report.

[ScatmanX]

Meh. A pity, because a turn one Rite of Flame would shield your first spell from Daze, leaving only FOW for the gruesome Vial counter. I'll also leave it on a "maybe someday" pile..
Or, you play against a good player, and he Daze the Rite, and you pass the turn doing nothing.
In the case of Mox there is the option of, either playing it before your land, to they are tempted to Daze it, which is nice depending on your hand, or you play it after your land, making their Daze useless for that turn.
AND, you got yourself another permanent mana source.

*will read Devran's report now.

[L10]

Cleston, your deck list looks solid. It's actually very similar to my latest deck list.
-7 Fetch Lands
-4 Dual Lands
-1 Siege-Gang Commander
+7 Mountains
+4 Rishadan Port
+1 Goblin Chieftain
Do you not have a set of Ports or choose not to use them? Ports are still great for me after a T1 Vial. Though, my meta still has a healthy amount of control player still, like Mono White Control and Landstill, so Ports are still relevant for me.
Also, with the green and black splashes, it may be a good idea to MD one Tin Street Hooligan and one Warren Weirding. Artifact removal are rarely irrelavent. If you know the opponent uses Stoneblade, you can hold back your Warchief, and use Hooligan against Jitte first. You can replace a MWM for Hooligan. For Warren Weirding, you can replace a Stingscourger for it. They place similar roles and Warren Wierding can hit Thrun, Progenitus, etc, as long as you set up the board position right to force your opponent to sac the creature you want. It doesn't always happen though.

Davran, nice report, but it seemed you got pretty lucky. lol Even the tone of your report suggested that. Your list looks good.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Lucky for me, he casts Ponder, shuffles and passes....
He ponders and passes.

Ponder? In Hypergenesis?

[Cleston]

Or, you play against a good player, and he Daze the Rite, and you pass the turn doing nothing.
In the case of Mox there is the option of, either playing it before your land, to they are tempted to Daze it, which is nice depending on your hand, or you play it after your land, making their Daze useless for that turn.
AND, you got yourself another permanent mana source.

*will read Devran's report now.

But if I'm about to be dazed, isn't it better to have a Rite of Flame than a Aether Vial countered?

I'm disconsidering Lackey, because of cavern of souls.

[Tacosnape]

Why is nobody playing Mogg Fanatic at the moment?

Seriously, this card is fantastic against pretty much the entire format right now - Maverick, Delvers, Elves, Goblins, Dredge, etc. And unlike Tarfire, it's uncounterable through up to 8 methods in your deck, it assists Piledriver, it assists Gempalm, it assists Krenko, and it can actually beat face.

[Cleston]

Cleston, your deck list looks solid. It's actually very similar to my latest deck list.
-7 Fetch Lands
-4 Dual Lands
-1 Siege-Gang Commander
+7 Mountains
+4 Rishadan Port
+1 Goblin Chieftain
Do you not have a set of Ports or choose not to use them? Ports are still great for me after a T1 Vial. Though, my meta still has a healthy amount of control player still, like Mono White Control and Landstill, so Ports are still relevant for me.
Also, with the green and black splashes, it may be a good idea to MD one Tin Street Hooligan and one Warren Weirding. Artifact removal are rarely irrelavent. If you know the opponent uses Stoneblade, you can hold back your Warchief, and use Hooligan against Jitte first. You can replace a MWM for Hooligan. For Warren Weirding, you can replace a Stingscourger for it. They place similar roles and Warren Wierding can hit Thrun, Progenitus, etc, as long as you set up the board position right to force your opponent to sac the creature you want. It doesn't always happen though.

Davran, nice report, but it seemed you got pretty lucky. lol Even the tone of your report suggested that. Your list looks good.

I don't have the ports, but I'm also not totally convinced of them. I like the idea of splashing into other colors more than I like the idea oh denying my opponent's mana. What do you guys think? Not to mention that with Wastelands and Caverns, I feel like having colorless mana enough.

while on artifact hate, I guess you're right, I should be packing some MD.

[Davran]

Ponder? In Hypergenesis?

Huh. My memory is a little fuzzy...he must have just done nothing and passed. I didn't mark anything down in my notes...but I rarely keep track of cantrips unless they matter.

Ponder would be awful in that deck too...so I must be remembering wrong.

[L10]

Yeah, Hypergenesis doesn't even run Brainstorm, so I doubt one would run Ponder as a cantrip. Though, they do run blue, so it's always possible.


I don't have the ports, but I'm also not totally convinced of them. I like the idea of splashing into other colors more than I like the idea oh denying my opponent's mana. What do you guys think? Not to mention that with Wastelands and Caverns, I feel like having colorless mana enough.
Yeah, the colorless mana may be a problem, which is why I only run with one SGC and three Gempalms. Though, they rarely are. I am usually able to snatch one Mountain by turn three. Rishadan Port is great against certain metas, like Landstill. It's not needed against the current tier 1 decks.

[Final Fortune]

Why is nobody playing Mogg Fanatic at the moment?

Seriously, this card is fantastic against pretty much the entire format right now - Maverick, Delvers, Elves, Goblins, Dredge, etc. And unlike Tarfire, it's uncounterable through up to 8 methods in your deck, it assists Piledriver, it assists Gempalm, it assists Krenko, and it can actually beat face.

Greed, Goblins can't include their 2nd Siege Commander, 2nd Krenko, Mob Boss, 5+ Warchief and Chieftons and utility Goblins like Tuk Tuk Scrapper, Goblin Sharp Shooter and Stingscourger unless they cut their one drops or two drops.

Personally, I don't know how people are playing with 0 Mogg Fanatics and 3/3 Goblin Piledriver and Mogg War Marshal, the curve is fucking horrendous.

[jrw1985]

I played a quick three rounds last night with a 2x Krenko list.

R1 Staxx
G1 I'm on the draw, have Lackey, Piledriver, Lord in my 7. My opponent plays T1 Ancient Tomb into Chalice @ 1. I rip Cavern as my 8th card and crush.
G2 I'm on the draw, have Lackey, Piledriver, Lord in my 7. My opponent plays T1 Ancient Tomb into Chalice @ 1. I rip Cavern as my 8th card and crush.

So that happened.

R2 Elves
G1 I had plenty of time to scout last round, so I know what everyone is playing at this point. I lose the roll and see an opening 7 that is shit. My opponent keeps his 7. I Mull to 6 and get a hand of 2xVial, Gempalm, Warchief, 2xMountain. Super slow against a combo deck, but my Gempalm can get online easily if I nab a 1 drop (got 4xLackey, 1xMogg, 1xSkirk MD). Also, I've already mulled to 6, I have two powerhouse 1-drops, and removal. It's just the Wrong powerhouse 1-drops and Wrong removal for this MU. But I'd already mulled to 6 and wasn't likely to find anything better in my 5. I proceed to draw 4 more lands and another Warchief, then get Emrakul'd. Ce la Vie.
G2 I keep my 7. He mulls to 5. I win pretty easily.
G3 I mull to 5. He keeps his 7. He wins pretty easily.

R3 GWB Birthing Pod combo
This deck played a bunch of Deeds, discard, life-gaining critters, and Birthing Pod for a controling critter package. G1 I fought through multiple Deeds to get him down to 4 life (I was at 20), but he was able to take control of the game from that point through Reveillark cheating Sun Titan into play. L
G2 I sided in Leylines, Relics, and a second Tuktuk. I opened on a Leyline/Lackey hand and got the W pretty quick.
G3 I opened on a Leyline/Lackey hand again, but he had a T1 Cabal Therapy naming Lackey. Without Lackey I couldn't take advantage of the delay the Leyline created, and he eventually got Deed to clear the board, then went all buck wild. I probably made some pretty bad sideboarding decisions for this match. I'm not entirely sure what I should have done differently though. Leylines seemed like a pretty good answer to a lot of his deck (Veteran Explorer, CT, Kitchen Finks, Sun Titan, Reveillark, Eternal Witness) so it was probably a good idea leaving them in, but I think that should have been my only control element. Just shave 4 gobbos and keep the beatdown gameplan, instead of siding in the Relics and junk too. Dunno. I probably over-sideboarded.

[supachai]

Greed, Goblins can't include their 2nd Siege Commander, 2nd Krenko, Mob Boss, 5+ Warchief and Chieftons and utility Goblins like Tuk Tuk Scrapper, Goblin Sharp Shooter and Stingscourger unless they cut their one drops or two drops.

Personally, I don't know how people are playing with 0 Mogg Fanatics and 3/3 Goblin Piledriver and Mogg War Marshal, the curve is fucking horrendous.

Goblins's curve has always been ugly. It's usually 8-9 one drops, 8-9 2 drops, some of which can't be cast on the second turn, and 9-12 3 drops, with a couple 4+ to top it off. It's been tried to alleviate goblins curve with 1 drops but in the end having too many just weakens the deck, despite making its early game better. We used to run port, which gave us something to do turn 2 if we had nothing to play. Now with Caverns, we may need to look to other ways to smooth the curve. MWM helps here.

@tacosnape: I think sharpshooter does a better job of what fanatic accomplishes. It's a little slower, and there have times you only have 1 mana to spare, but sharpshooter is much more powerful and versatile. Gets around stuff like Moat, pick off all their elves, ends the game with prospector, etc. I've been running 1 prospector, 1 tarfire, 1 sharpshooter and it covers all the bases you have with fanatic, but also does a lot more for the deck.

[ScatmanX]

Why is nobody playing Mogg Fanatic at the moment?

Seriously, this card is fantastic against pretty much the entire format right now - Maverick, Delvers, Elves, Goblins, Dredge, etc. And unlike Tarfire, it's uncounterable through up to 8 methods in your deck, it assists Piledriver, it assists Gempalm, it assists Krenko, and it can actually beat face.
I prefer Tarfire because it kells flipped Delvers, Goblin Guide, Qasali Pridemage, Stoneforge Mystic, Goblin Warchief/Chieftain/Kiki-Jiki, Merfolk lords, and sometimes Knight of the Relicary and Ooze (like my last tournament), and those are quite common cards around here.

[BigBopper]

I got a little task for all of you. The question is how to win that game? Here's the situation:
Playing vs. Sneak Show, the opponent sits on 4 life, has a Sneak Attack in play (4 lands tapped) but a Lotus Petal ready. I know that he has at least a grieselbrand in hand since I bounced it earlier. I have Matron, Ringleader and 1 Token in play, as well as 2 Ports, 1 mountain and 1 Cavern of Souls. My hand is Matron, Gempalm, Gempalm and I topdeck Skirk Prospecter. How could one win this game?

[Achamian]

Play Skirk Prospector (with Cavern of Souls), play Matrone searching for Tarfire, attack with everything I have. If he cheats Griselbrand into the game and blocks one of my creatures, sacrifice it and Tarfire him into the face. :)

[GoboLord]

Hey fellow Warchiefs,

yesterday I attended a tournament – well, not just a tournament… I played on the Legacy Grand Prix in Gent, Belgium. As always, I had fun and learned something and I want to share my experiences with you – but first I’ll write some words about the road-trip:

Let’s start on Thursday when we (me and Ruffy, aka. I am the brainwasher) had some tournament preparations. I wanted to find out two things: (1) What is the right number of Krenko, in my deck and (2) how do I beat RUG Thresh more consistently. The playtesting revealed that 2 Krenkos might be cool, but that I’m fine with only one copy and that it is not a good idea to cut my 2nd SGC from my deck to include the Mob Boss. As for my second question, we figured out that winning or losing the RUG Thresh MU pretty much depends on resolving a Vial in early game: when you resolve one you are likely to win, when you don’t resolve it you will most likely lose the game.
The day started at 4:30 a.m. with a decent breakfast featuring grilled bacon & eggs, a huge amount of pure energy in form of a smoothy and a good pot of muesli. We packed our things and there we were on the streets…well for 1 hour at least….that’s when we took a rest to have a coffee and a good poop in the most luxurious toilet I’ve ever seen on an autobahn-restaurant. Start your day right. After 1,5 hours of chit-chatting about the meta we arrived at the event site. Before the tourney started we got rid of the coffee and the smoothy in this nice facility
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/lb/thumb/1/18/Mobile_Pissoir_w.jpg/280px-Mobile_Pissoir_w.jpg.

Okay, guys, enough of the boring talk – here are some facts:

Event: Legacy Grand Prix Gent, Belgium
Players: 1445
Date: Saturday, July 21st 2012
Result: 6-3-0 after 9 rounds

Decklist:
Mana [21]
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
10 Mountains
1 Snow-Covered Mountain

Core [22]
...

Others [17]
4 Piledriver
3 MWM
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Krenko
3 Gempalm
2 Stinger
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember

Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline otV
4 Chalice otV
3 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Anarchy
1 Tuktuk
1 Sharpshooter

Round 1: Bjorn from Belgium with Maverick
G1: Ends after a short struggle which is resolved by a Dismember targeting a KotR.
IN: 1 Shooter, 1 Tuktuk, 3 Vortici, 2 Anarchy
OUT: 4 Lackeys, 3 Pileys
G2: I had mulligan to 5 which still featured AEther Vial. Dismember took down a KotR again, Bjorn resolved an impressive army of 3 Noble Hierarchs. The long game ended very closely when Bjorn (on 6 life) swung for the win with Sword of Fire and Ice.
G3: I won with 20 lifepoints and Bjorn just got combo’ed to death by Krenko.

1-0-0

Round 2: Mark from Norway(?) with Belcher
G1 & 2: Poor Mark came the long way from Norway to Belgium just to make some horrible misplays which cost him the game.

2-0-0

Round 3: Jasper from The Netherlands with Zombardement
G1: I lost a close game because I didn’t know what his deck did. I underestimated the value of Blood Artist which turned out to be a bad.
IN: 1 Shooter
OUT: 1 MWM
G2: Jasper got combo’ed to death by an early Lackey connecting into Krenko and Piledriver
G3: It turned out that Zombies can’t block, which is quite nice when you have double Piledriver.

3-0-0

Round 4: Stephane from France with Rock (aka. GBW creatures)
G1: I got overwhelmed by Nimble Mongoose, Goyf and KotR
IN: 4 Leylines
OUT: 2 Bolts, 2 Gempalms
G2: I did not start with Leyline, but with Wasteland, Vial, Skirk Prospector, Matron, 2 Ringleader, 2 SGC. This hand was risky but then again his deck was quite slow and I had many things to draw from my deck that would bring me into a favored position (lands, Lackey, more Vials, MWMs, Stinger). That was about the way it worked: KoTr and Kitchen Finks did not apply enough pressure to beat through tons of Goblins. That were freatured by Ringleader, Krenko and SGC.
IN: 1 Tuktuk
OUT: 1 Gempalm
G3: My intuition told me that it would be a good idea to have Tuktuk in the deck. Well, Stephane was pretty much screwed on Lands with only Dark double-Mongoose and Scavenging Ooze in play, while also having Needle (@ Vial) and Phyrexian Revoker (@ Krenko). I never drew Vial in the course of the game and had Tuktuk on my opening hand that destroyed Revoker just 1 turn before I drew Krenko from top. Krenko won me the game.

4-0-0

Round 5: Christoph from Germany with Esperblade
G1: I took mulligan to 5 only to keep a hand that could not do anything before turn 3. Christoph had SFM for Jitte on turn 2 and a Batterskull soon after. What a devastating start. Still I managed to recover a little just before he blew me out with clique after ~20 minutes.
IN: 3 Vortici, 1 Tuktuk, 1 Shooter, 2 Anarchy
OUT: 3 MWM, 1 Krenko, 1 Stinger, 2 Gempalms
G2: Both of us had pretty strong draws. 2 Lackeys and 1 Sharpshooter got StoP’ed I had 1 dissatisfying Ringleader (got me only one Goblin and put 1 Anarchy and 2 Vortici on bottom). 2 Spirit tokens were Bolt’ed and Incinerated. Overall I was too slow and did not build up a threatening board position.

4-1-0

Round 6:Alexander from Russia with UWb Miracle Control
G1: 1 Lackey and 1 MWM beat him to 1 life, while double Port and double Wasteland screwed him out of the game. However on 1 Life he had Snapcaster @ StoP (which previously removed my Lackey) to take care of my tokens. After that I had nothing buut lands while Alex resolved Counterbalance, Top and Jace into Entreat the Angels. I might have won but I’m not sure about it. You be the judges. The situation was as follows:
My Lackey got sworded, so I cast MWM to continue building up pressure. On his turn Alex resolved Counterbalance. The following turns he was unable to play anything because double Port and Wasteland did their job. So, my choice was: (1) taking the risk of playing a Piledriver to speed things up. Then I would have taken the risk that Alex would be able to actually resolve something because I couldn’t double-Port him. I would also take the risk that Pile gets countered anyways. (2) Keep attacking with MWM and screw him out of the game. Screwing seemed like a solid move because it worked for the last five turns in row (and in the end this strategy beat him down to 1 life).
http://chrela.com/store/images//Philosoraptor.jpg
What would you have done here?
IN: 3 Vortici, 2 Anarchy
OUT: 1 Krenko, 2 Bolts, 2 MWM
G2: I opened with Mountain and Lackey, which later connected into Krenko and Ringleader. However, I didn’t draw any lands for time while Alex resolved a Terminus being at 6 life. From there I lost the game to Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland because the next 5 lands I drew were Wastelands and Ports. I never exceeded 2 lands and lost the game with 1 Anarchy, 2 Vortici, 1 Matron, and 2 Ringleaders on my hand.

4-2-0

Round 7: Elkin from the Netherlands with RUG (not thresh!)
G1: Elking mulled to 5 while I kept my 6 being 1 Cavern, 2 Lackey and 3 Piledriver.
http://www10.pic-upload.de/22.07.12/v5b1rkd1v49y.jpg (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-15238411/Joker--seriously.jpg.html)
IN: 4 Chalice
OUT: 4 Lackey

G2: I had only 2 MWM and 1 Stinger the whole game. Chalice came too late. The game ended when I had 6 lands in play (and 3 in my hand) when Elking blew me out with Echoing truth for my tokens.
IN: Lackeys
OUT Chalices
G3: The last game was pretty much decided by Krenko vs Delver. I resolved a Vial at turn 1, while Elkin had a delver that flipped on the next turn. However, Krenko won the race.

5-2-0

Round 8: Arnaud from France with Belcher (aka. “Wow, not again…”)
G1: 16 Tokens on T1.
G2: Anaud fought through Chalice 0 and 1 (Taiga, Lotus Petal, LED, Chrome Mox, Spirit Guide, 2 Pyrite Ritual and Empty).

5-3-0

Round 9: Dalibor from Slovakia with Maverick.
G1: I take mulligan to 6. Then there was an announcement that the pairings were wrong and we would get new pairings.

Round 9: Mikhail from Russia with BWG Rock
G1: Mike scoops to double Lackey out of a Vial that have their way cleared by Stingscourger @ Scavenging Ooze.
IN: 1 Tuktuk
OUT: 1 MWM
G2: Mike is flooded as hell. His Scavenging Ooze eats my dudes but never touches my lifepoints due to an impressive chain of MWMs and Matrons. The game lasts very long since 2 Hymn to Tourarch catch 2 Ringleaders, 2 SGC.

6-3-0

Conclusions:
* Zombies can’t block
* Belcher is a 50%-50% matchup….not.
* a good breakfast is more worth than 3 BYEs
* Anarchy is underperforming against Maverick, Stoneblade and UW Miracle I will replace them with 1 Krenko and 4th Sulfuric Vortex
* 2 Ports will be replaced by either 2 Mountains or 1 Mountain and 1 Mutavault.

I hope you enjoyed reading my tournament report. Questions are very much appreciated.

[Yuri8]

Why is nobody playing Mogg Fanatic at the moment?

Seriously, this card is fantastic against pretty much the entire format right now - Maverick, Delvers, Elves, Goblins, Dredge, etc. And unlike Tarfire, it's uncounterable through up to 8 methods in your deck, it assists Piledriver, it assists Gempalm, it assists Krenko, and it can actually beat face.

Agree, I'm playing him for about 8 months in row and never really regreted it. Three is right number for me so far as you usually want to start with other one drops, but he is golden in mulliganing when you don't have to shuffle every hand without lackey and vial...

[BigBopper]

Play Skirk Prospector (with Cavern of Souls), play Matrone searching for Tarfire, attack with everything I have. If he cheats Griselbrand into the game and blocks one of my creatures, sacrifice it and Tarfire him into the face. :)

Ok, is an option. i was thinking about playing Prospector, attacking all in and when he plays Grieselbrand, Incinerate him for 4, sac Prospector and Incinerate for another 3.
Either way I just wanted to point out how well Prospector works for Lifelink and mana issues!

@Gobolord: Why do you hold on to non-goblin removal? Sure killing KotR with Dismember is sort of cool, but doesn't gempalm do the same now with Krenko. Especially when you play vs. Maverick and they only have 4 pieces of removal? I believe if we're fast enough vs. Sneak Show and krenko can be activated twice it might even be possible to gempalm an Emrakul...wish thinking...
Concerning your question: I would probably have also gone the control route to tap down his mana with Port. I just consider port as valuable enough to not entirely cut it...I mean did you suffer a situation where you needed more red sources instead of Port?

[GoboLord]

@Gobolord: Why do you hold on to non-goblin removal?
I want 3 removal in my deck that can kill SFM right on the spot (preferably in the EOT when it resolved). Since 2nd/3rd turn SFM is a common move of Stoneblade variants I need something that costs 1 mana. Stingscourger doesn't deal with SFM - he makes her even worse. Gempalm Incinerator is almost never powerful enough to deal with SFM in early turns. I run a 2-1 split between Bolt and Dismember because Dismember is randomly more effective than Bolt and I'm not satisfied with the lifeloss when you run more than 1 copy.
"Then, why don't you play Tarfire?". Because I hate having something in my deck that reads "tribal". It pumps Goyfs (which are played in RUG aka. the best deck in the format), Tarfire will NEVER be able to kill Scavenging Ooze and oftentimes 1 damage more or less makes the difference when you need to block a Knight with many creatures at once (blocking with 3 creatures and casting Lightning Bolt VS. blocking with 4 creatures and casting Tarfire). Lightning Bolt is just more reliable and saves more resources. I don't want to trade this against a card that CAN be netted with Ringer and CAN be Matron'ed for but will most often not happen.


I just consider port as valuable enough to not entirely cut it...I mean did you suffer a situation where you needed more red sources instead of Port?
I'm love Ports too, but yesterday I had several situations where Ports were really blocking my game. It's NOT that I was losing because of Ports alone - until now I have been able to compensate for not having enough R sources, but I find it more important to have a solid manabase (even more so with a whole playset of Sulfuric Vortex in my SB). I don't expect Ports to be awsome...they just needed to be better than Mountains. Yesterday they were worse than Mountains.

[Zarania]

Just dropping in with an anecdote on well Krenk+Skirk Prospector+Siege Gang work together:

I was playing Enchantress vs my friend's goblins. I kept a shaky hand, he had turn 1 lackey. Turn 2 it connects, dropping Krenko, play WInstigator. Turn 2 I had Elephant Grass. He pays the 2 to swing with WInstigator, dropping Siege Gang and Matron for something I don't remember. I had to let the grass die and drop a very risky Solitary Confinement. He sits back with Krenko and creates tokens while playing out dudes. I played Enchantress's Presence, then start chaining enchantments to try to draw into enough effects to maintain the lock. I had to discard one card too many due to a lack of mana acceleration from Growth effects. I have to let Confinement drop on my turn, hoping he doesn't see the very obvious play of use the 138 goblin tokens+Skirk+Siege Gang commander before I can play an O-Ring. He sees it and I die a fiery death to sac'd tokens on my upkeep.

[magicmerl]

Conclusions:
* Zombies can’t block
* Belcher is a 50%-50% matchup….not.
* a good breakfast is more worth than 3 BYEs
* Anarchy is underperforming against Maverick, Stoneblade and UW Miracle I will replace them with 1 Krenko and 4th Sulfuric Vortex
* 2 Ports will be replaced by either 2 Mountains or 1 Mountain and 1 Mutavault.

I hope you enjoyed reading my tournament report. Questions are very much appreciated.
So, my current thoughts on the report are
1. How often did Port hinder/help you?
2. How often did it matter to have access to MWM?
3. How often did it matter to have access to Krenko G1?
4. How often did it matter to have access to Stingscourger G1?
5. How often did it matter to have access to Sharpshooter G1?
6. How often did it matter to have access to TukTuk G1?

So my read on your tournament report goes as follows:

R1G3: Krenko mattered
R3G1: Sharpshooter could have been the difference
R4 your sideboarding seems curious. Why did you bring in Leylines vs Goyf/KotR? Are they that good? How about an alternative package that involved increasing the number of Krenko you run?
R5G1: TukTuk could have been the difference
R5G2: Do you think you might have won if you simply hadn't sideboarded? Or only brought in Goblins?
R6G1: Looks like Ports were useful here? Also, MWM was low impact (although the alternatives prolly would not have been better)

In response to your R6 question, I think that sticking with the line of play you have been pursuing for the last few turns (porting them) is better than taking a holiday from that and making a piledriver. The odds are that your opponent could resolve a much more impactful card. It didn't work out for you here but I don't see casting Piledriver as being a better alternative. Your opponent would have to have no way of capitalising on the extra mana for it to be better, and that seems unlikely.

R6G2: Looks like ports were not useful here.
R7: Is the Chalice/Lackey swap on the draw a premeditated plan by you? In what matchups do you do that?
R7G3: Krenko mattered
R8: Do you just accept this as a bad matchup? Is Thalia/Thorn the best we can do here?
R8G2: I don't understand how your opponent can get through Chalice for 0 with that hand. What did you SB out for it? Did you SB in Sharpshooter? Could Cabal Therapy help here? Or (getting creative here...) Stifle?
R9G2: MWM mattered.

Thanks for the writeup. In summary, it looked like Krenko was definitely good, and both Sharpshooter and TukTuk would have been situationally good in some critical G1 situations. Should/can you squeeze in a copy of each in MD? Maybe over the 2nd Stingscourger and SGC?

Both MWM and Port seemed to have mixed results for you (sometimes good, sometimes weak). Port seems to have a more clearly defined alternative (more mountains) than MWM does (Fanatic? Tarfire?).

I can definitely see you switching out a couple of ports for more mountains as a result, and also maindecking Sharpshooter over the 2nd Stingscourger. Regarding the SB, the anarchy slots seem very non-goblin and sub-par. I could see Vortex and the 2nd Krenko as replacements, although how about (another) TukTuk instead of the 4th Vortex?

p.s. I saw your reasoning regarding Bolt vs Tarfire, and with the more token centric build that I think goblins is evolving towards, I think that Goyf and other dumb green creatures will become less of a concern and Tarfire will be a better choice, since it has better synergy with the rest of the deck.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Looks like I have some reading to catch up on here... Will do that later. Time to report!
PLS Season 1 Event (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24242-Legacy-7-22-12-Philadelphia-Legacy-Series-Season-One-Event-Three-Redcap-s-Corner)
44 people. Maverick and Dredge were out in force but still a very diverse field. Me and a buddy playing Goblins. He was running a modified Jim Davis list. Mine was as follows:

Mana (21)
11 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Chrome Mox

Non-Goblins (4)
4 Aether Vial

Goblins (35)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tarfire

Sideboard (15)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Mountain
1 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Anarchy
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector

Krenko is the shit people! If he resolved I won the game. Simple as that.
Went 5-0-1 in swiss. Punted my top 8...

Round 1 - Esper Tezzeret
2-0

Round 2 - Miracle
2-0

Round 3 - Aggro Loam
2-1 Lost round 1 because I mulled to 4...

Round 4 - Mav with Fauna Shaman
2-1 Won game 2 through 3 Mother of Runes and a Scavenging Ooze equipped with Umezawa's Jitte!

Round 5 - BUG Control
2-1 Lost game 1 cause of Pernicious Deed

Round 6 - Goblin mirror
Draw

Top 8 consisted of 2 Goblin decks, RUG, BUG, Elves, Aggro Loam, Painter Combo, and Esper Blade.

Paired against Esper Blade. LOSS
Game 1 - Got friendly with the opponent and fucked up a mulligan. I mulled to 6 but drew 7. That meant an automatic mull to 5... Oops.
Messed up on sideboarding too. I won game 2 even though I forgot to board in Tuktuk Scrapper.
Game 3 I finally see him play Lingering Souls and realize I left my Goblin Sharpshooter in my board! F me...

Top 4 ended up being RUG, Elves, Aggro Loam, and Esper Blade.

My Anarchys sat in the board all day. I'd replace those in a second. Otherwise I'm very happy with the way the deck played.

[Avatara]

Isn't Goblin Chirurgeon very good when combined with Krenko? You can make a wall that can survive stuff like Deed and Firesprout. Make your Piledrivers hit multiple times in succession and he can negate Jitti, Lifelink just like prospector, while at the same moment blocking stuff like opposing Lackeys, surviving -1/-1 and removing bridges.

[feline]

can't win em all, totally bombed out tonight with a record of 1 match win, 3 match losses, had to eat stoneforge mystic decks every round for the first 3, managing to only get a match win on 1 of them, then I go up against reanimator, and noone ever plays that or dredge or life from the loam's so I "metagamed" my sideboard with no graveyard hate, since I usually have it and it just sits in the sideboard when I'm always wishing I had other options, so tonight of course I shoot myself in the foot by playing some anti blue instead, it happens I suppose and is all part of the gamble.

The previous week however I went 3 match wins 1 match loss, my 1 loss that time being to affinity because it's just too darned fast, and even though tuk-tuk can answer a cranial plating, top decking a second one was Good Game

[fimo]

Hi guys I went to a 60 man tournament yesterday. It was a 8 round swiss + top 8 and ended up second losing to sneak & show in the final. Anyhow I won a playset of badlands + 1 Bloodstained Mire
My priority was to make the deck more resilient against combo and equipments. Therefore, the white splash was very welcome bringing thalia in MD and 3 copies of disenchant in the board.
Here is the list:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 AEther Vial
1 Skirk Prospector

4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Mogg War Marshal

4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Chieftain

4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau

SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Disenchant

R1 against reanimator. G1 i manage to bounce griselbrand with Stingscourger. he couldn t counter that because I used aether vial. He doesn t recover. G2 I play vial T1 and an incounterable thalia (via cavern of souls) T2 + lackey through vial. He is slowed down and I manage to win the race.
1-0

R2 against sneak & show. G1 I am on the play start with T1 lackey. T2 thalia and I win the race. G2 he mulls into oblivion
2-0

R3 agains burn. G1 is very close but I manage to gather a horde for the win. G2 T2 chalice seals the game
3-0

R4 against blue-red painter servant grindstone combo. G1 he comboes out fast. G2 and G3 I get good draws blow his combo pieces with pithing needle, disenchant, gempalm and tuktuk. Red elemental blast was also relevant to kill painter servant because he named blue.
4-0

R5 we drew
4-0-1

R6 we drew
4-0-2

Top 8:
quaterfinals against U/W stoneblade miracles. G1 I start with T1 vial into lackey and build enough pressure, win. G2 is an extremely long game back and forward. At the end he wins with a snapcaster mage after a terminus. G3 I start with vial again and I am fast to build up too much pressure., win
5-0-2

semifinals against sneak & show. G1 he show and tell into emrakul I have Stingscourger in hand, win. G2 he mulls to 5, I have T1 lackey and build pressure fast, win.
6-0-2

finals against sneak & show. G1 he mulls to 5 and lack the combo pieces, win. G2 he show & tell into a progenitus (?!), I Stingscourger, lost. G3 he show & tell into a progenitus, I Stingscourger, lost.

I am really satisfied for how the deck worked out. I got unwinnable pairings but managed to get second which gets me pretty proud. 21 lands seemed the right number all day for this build. White splash was awsome, lackey and thalia were the most problematic cards for the opponet and T1 lackey/vial and T2 thalia is just gamebreaking. Disenchant was extremely useful, especially against U/W and painter servant. Pithing needle was a house, ONCE AGAIN.
An awkward situation I found myself into was against U/W when he had a karakas down. bouncing krenko and thalia is pretty annoying especially if krenko doesn t have haste.

[orcanmail]

finals against sneak & show. G1 he mulls to 5 and lack the combo pieces, win. G2 he show & tell into a progenitus (?!), I Stingscourger, lost. G3 he show & tell into a progenitus, I Stingscourger, lost.

Excellent result well done.

Just picking up on your loss to show and tell progenitus. It is a problem for my mono red goblins, and to date i have only ever won by racing it with a pro from blue piledriver.
I saw you packed 4 pilidrivers and still lost to progenitus. How do people deal with it? After all Stingscourger may work v emrakul, but progenitus remains a problem.

[Davran]

I might have won but I’m not sure about it. You be the judges. The situation was as follows:
My Lackey got sworded, so I cast MWM to continue building up pressure. On his turn Alex resolved Counterbalance. The following turns he was unable to play anything because double Port and Wasteland did their job. So, my choice was: (1) taking the risk of playing a Piledriver to speed things up. Then I would have taken the risk that Alex would be able to actually resolve something because I couldn’t double-Port him. I would also take the risk that Pile gets countered anyways. (2) Keep attacking with MWM and screw him out of the game. Screwing seemed like a solid move because it worked for the last five turns in row (and in the end this strategy beat him down to 1 life).

What would you have done here?

I think you made the right call here by keeping up with the mana denial plan once you started down that road. That line is also better vs. a Terminus out of your opponent, which is certainly an out he would be playing to. I tend to find that there's no real reason to speed up your own clock unless you're facing down combo OR your opponent just started winning the race.



Conclusions:
* Anarchy is underperforming against Maverick, Stoneblade and UW Miracle I will replace them with 1 Krenko and 4th Sulfuric Vortex

I'm also finding Anarchy difficult to evaluate. When I can resolve it, I usually win the game simply because it is so unexpected and my opponent's play right into the "wrath". I find that I really want it against UW Miracle, but that the deck usually has a FoW or other counter in hand. Plus, it always feels bad to need it and flip it off of a Ringleader.

Have you found any other "tech" against UW Miracle? I wonder, is something like Ratchet Bomb a viable answer to Entreat? What about Pithing Needle on Sensei's Divining Top?


* 2 Ports will be replaced by either 2 Mountains or 1 Mountain and 1 Mutavault

I think this is a good call. Port is fine and certainly has its uses, but I think with Krenko joining the gob squad we're wanting to be aggressive, not controlling. Mutavault is interesting, but I'm not sure we need/want it. It doesn't tap for R, and it's a pretty easy Wasteland target. It might be good with Krenko hanging around though...it's good for an extra token at least.


Just picking up on your loss to show and tell progenitus. It is a problem for my mono red goblins, and to date i have only ever won by racing it with a pro from blue piledriver.
I saw you packed 4 pilidrivers and still lost to progenitus. How do people deal with it? After all Stingscourger may work v emrakul, but progenitus remains a problem.

The only times I've successfully beat Progenitus have involved a Piledriver and plenty of early pressure. If life totals are low enough, you can usually just win via the unblocked Piledriver, or force your opponent to hold back the Progenitus for blocking purposes. I'll often reveal Matron off of the Show and Tell because it gives me more information - if I see Emrakul, Matron gets Stinger. If I see Progenitus, I probably get Piledriver.

[Pee-Dee-2]

Now it's my time. Like I told you a few days before, I was in holiday far far away and made the plan to drive to GP Ghent.

So it was friday, when I woke up at 6am and drove about 1.800Km to arrive at Ghent at 5.30am (the regestration began at 8am).

Ok, without sleeping and having 3 byes, I had to play 6 more rounds the first day and I made it ended up 8:1 the first day and found myself being up about 40 hours.

My matchups were:

4. Bant -> 2:1
5. Soldiers -> 2:0
6. Merfolk -> 2:0
7. Belcher -> 0:2
8. U/G/W/r Control -> 2:0
9. Canadian -> 2:1

This was a good situation for day 2...this time with sleeping the night before but at least, there is not much to talk about.
Round 10, I played the worst Magic ever, when I played against Maverick/U and after my opponent shows me his Tropical and Brainstorm to run into a daze with a Matron while having Cavern of Souls in my hand. After that I have nothing left and lose.

I only won 3 of 7 so ended up 11:5 and had nothing in hand. I would have needed one more point for money.

But at least, it was a good tournament and I have a lot of fun while seeing many people.

But now to the deck:

I played with 1 SGC, 2 Krenko, 3 MWM, 3 Incinerator, 2 Stingscourger, 1 Prospector, 2 Piledriver, 2Chieftains and the core, didn't play a splash or Ports.

What to say? I was satisfied with this list and spoke a few with GoboLord. I don't know if I will play 2 Krenko and 1 SGC or vice versa. In you starting hand, it's better having SGC for Lackey. Later often Krenko has more pressure. I also had things like

1. turn land and Lackey
2. turn attack into Krenko
3. turn Goblin and activation Krenko for the win

Very difficult...I will do more tests to say something!

@GoboLord: I will write you a pm!

[GoboLord]

So, my current thoughts on the report are
1. How often did Port hinder/help you?
2. How often did it matter to have access to MWM?
3. How often did it matter to have access to Krenko G1?
4. How often did it matter to have access to Stingscourger G1?
5. How often did it matter to have access to Sharpshooter G1?
6. How often did it matter to have access to TukTuk G1?
1. It hindered more often than it helped. I don't know the numbers though.
2. MWM did a great job against Maverick, Zombies, both Rock-type decks and both Belcher-decks. In R2G1 it even won me the game which I had lost otherwise,
3. Krenko won me games against Maverick, Zombies, the first BGW-deck and RUG.
4. Almost every game. I frequently need both copies to win and I'm thinking of playing a 3rd copy in MD or SB.
5. I would say it didn't matter since all games would have turned out about the same with or without Sharpshooter.
6. In R5G1 Tuktuk would have been good, but I pretty much lost the game due to mulligan 5 paired with a slow start.



R4 your sideboarding seems curious. Why did you bring in Leylines vs Goyf/KotR? Are they that good? How about an alternative package that involved increasing the number of Krenko you run?
I brought in Leylines since he not only had Goyfs and Knight but also Mongoose and Scavenging Ooze. I won G2 without them and G3 because of them.


R5G2: Do you think you might have won if you simply hadn't sideboarded? Or only brought in Goblins?
Interesting point. I think (since I didn't draw any sideboarded cards other than Shooter who caught a StoP immediately) I would have won if I had drawn my SB cards. I overestimated the value of Anarchy in this MU, so maybe a 2nd Tuktuk is a better card here. I can totally play this MU without Krenko and MWM, so it's probably a good plan to bring in only 4 cards (3 Vortex and 1 Tuktuk).


R6G1: Looks like Ports were useful here? Also, MWM was low impact (although the alternatives prolly would not have been better)
In response to your R6 question, I think that sticking with the line of play you have been pursuing for the last few turns (porting them) is better than taking a holiday from that and making a piledriver. The odds are that your opponent could resolve a much more impactful card. It didn't work out for you here but I don't see casting Piledriver as being a better alternative. Your opponent would have to have no way of capitalising on the extra mana for it to be better, and that seems unlikely.
R6G2: Looks like ports were not useful here.
R6G2 is not exactly the reason why I don't like Ports. They were underperforming the whole day. The MU in R6 just showed both extremes: being awsome in G1 and completely sucking in G2.


R7: Is the Chalice/Lackey swap on the draw a premeditated plan by you? In what matchups do you do that?
I pretty much only do this when I'm playing vs. RUG Thresh (or Canadian Thresh). In G1 I only saw Mongoose, Stifle and Tropical - so I thought he was playing Threshold. However in G2 it turned out that he had a more creature-centric approach. That'S why I restored my original deck for G3.


R8: Do you just accept this as a bad matchup? Is Thalia/Thorn the best we can do here?
I just accept Belcher as being close to unbeatable and very rarely played. I think the best we can do against Belcher is having 4 Mindbreak Trap in SB.


R8G2: I don't understand how your opponent can get through Chalice for 0 with that hand. What did you SB out for it? Did you SB in Sharpshooter? Could Cabal Therapy help here? Or (getting creative here...) Stifle?
My opponent cast 3 artiifact spells just to raise the storm count (they get countered by Chalice). He then produces RR out of Simian Spirit Guide and Taiga. Cast Pyrite Ritual for RRR, then anothoter one for RRRR then EtW for tokens.


Thanks for the writeup. In summary, it looked like Krenko was definitely good, and both Sharpshooter and TukTuk would have been situationally good in some critical G1 situations. Should/can you squeeze in a copy of each in MD? Maybe over the 2nd Stingscourger and SGC?
Nope, I won't squeeze in Tuiktuk and Shooter since they are not good enough for MD. I either win inspite of them or they simply don't make the drifference often enough. Besides, my latest playtesting results showe that cutting the 2nd SGC isn't agood idea (it doesn't work for me). As for Stingscourger: I love him and I really want a 3rd copy of him somewhere (either SB or MD).


Both MWM and Port seemed to have mixed results for you (sometimes good, sometimes weak). Port seems to have a more clearly defined alternative (more mountains) than MWM does (Fanatic? Tarfire?).
I guess you got the wrong picture of MWM. I didn't write detailed information about his performance, but he DID well in many games. However you are right about Ports here.



I can definitely see you switching out a couple of ports for more mountains as a result, and also maindecking Sharpshooter over the 2nd Stingscourger. Regarding the SB, the anarchy slots seem very non-goblin and sub-par. I could see Vortex and the 2nd Krenko as replacements, although how about (another) TukTuk instead of the 4th Vortex?
I guess I will first try Pithing Needles in those 2 slots of Anarchy, but I'm not settled yet.


Thank you for your insights. It's really helpful to have someone to write down his/her neutral impression on my reports.

[jrw1985]

18th Place at GP Ghent

Tobias Dreger - 18th
Grand Prix Ghent 2012 - Top 32


Main Deck

60 cards

3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
4 Mountain
2 Rishadan Port
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

4 Aether Vial

Sideboard
3 Gilded Drake
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Spell Pierce
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15 sideboard cards


18th place at Ghent seems pretty good. Krenko, Skirk , Sharpshooter, 4xMWM package. A Karakas to both defend against Emrakul/Grizz and to protect Krenko (seems good). I could actually see running Karakas + Thalia in some builds. U splash for Drake and Spell Pierce seems... interesting. Spell Pierce does bridge the gap between Mindbreak Trap and Red Elemental Blast (in that it can counter both Show and Tell and Ad Nauseum), but it isn't exactly elegant, is it? Like, oh, it would be nice if Goblins could run counterspells, so fuck it, let's put 3 counterspells in the SB and 1 fetchable land MD. This deck worries me because it looks pretty clunky, but it put up a great showing so who am I to judge?

Anywho, though I think the land package is a little odd we all already know that Goblins can play utility lands over mana lands (hence Port as a staple), so playing with a luck-sack-able-1-of Karakas isn't that unusual, and it fits nicely with the metagame.

But I gotta say it, I hate that sideboard. I gotta congratulate Tobias Dreger for going deeper than any other Gobbo player, and maybe he knows something that I don't, but I just don't understand the SB at all. First of all, is Gilded Drake really all that great? It's essentially the same as a Stingscourger, only the wrong color and not tutorable. It seems playing Stinger is just better. If any of you have played with Drake please write in and tell me why it's so much better than Stingscourger (in a Goblin deck).

4 Pyrokinesis? I've always felt 3 is the limit. It's just a terrible late game draw and it's painful in multiples.

3 Spell Pierce seems ... i dunno, Not Right. A B splash for Therapy just seems so much better (especially with MWM).

I'm probably completely overlooking the element of surprise that running cards like that in a Goblins build allows for. It really is a huge advantage when you have a trick up your sleeve that your opponent just isn't expecting, but, Spell Pierce???

[Amon Amarth]

The Gilded Drake is just eating up SB slots for a card that's basically only slightly better than Stingscourger if you can draw and cast it.

I used to feel really strongly about 4 Pyrokinesis but it's hard to find a spot for the 4th in the board as well as a spot in the MD when you're boarding it in. You can SB too many cards in diluting your MD. So I think 3 is optimal at the moment. We don't need to kill everything. Just remove a couple dudes and drop a Krenko. He'll demolish the decks where PK is good anyways.

I like how techy Spell Pierce is but I hate what it does to his mana base to support two splashes. God that's ugly. I really like Cabal Therapy more if you wanted more disruption than REB. Harder to use but the upside is enormous. Plus Black has lots of good SB cards like Perish/Nature/Virtues Ruin, Warren Weirding, Dread of Night, maybe some other stuff too.

The sideboard I like the most is the one from Jim Davis' most recent list. It's obviously very well thought out and works with his MD well. For reference:

Sideboard:
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Red Elemental Blast

[woremak]

After scrubbing out of GP Columbus this past weekend I played in three win a boxes with a RG list, winning one of them.

I played a maindeck Mogg Fanatic and it overperformed against everything except for Reanimator, and had a pretty hilarious match against Stax where I killed him through two Ghostly Prison, a Smokestack on two and on the last turn a Tabernacle due to some Krenko + SGC + Sharpshooter shenanigans.

I forgot how good it feels to play Goblins and win your bad matchups.

[LPEuler]

Hello all,

It is the first time I register in MTG The Source although I am a long time reader (stalkers, they call us ;P).
I used to play Goblins until a year and a half ago when I quit Magic due to time-sink reasons... But now I have time again so I decided to revisit my favourite (and only ;p) deck, and happy to see we have new cool cards to add to it!

I have read the main post at the beginning of the thread, thanks GoboLord it is indeed a very good job what you did there, and I have read the latest 20 pages of the thread, indeed a very friendly and fruitful discussion, I have to congratulate everyone on it.

After all this reading I made a first attempt to a deck still to be tested, it is very similar to one that has appeared here posted by someone but with minor changes (mostly -1 land, -1 incinerator -1 piledriver, +2 stingscourgers +1 chieftain), sorry I don't remember who posted it and I am lazy to go back the last pages ;P):


//Lands [21]
10 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Rishadan Port

//Core [20]:
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

//Others [19]:
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 KRenko, Mob Boss
2 Mogg War Marshall
2 Stingscourger
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Skirk Prospector


Sideboard:
4 Chalice of The void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tuktuk Scrapper



Specially I would like to know your opinion on (and thank you in advance for it):
- 21 Lands, should I add one more?
- Cutting 1 Piledriver (remembering that the 4-of was a must in my old lists)... is it wise? Should maybe move to the SB the Sharpshooter? Add a 4th and change another card?
- 3 Incinerators + 2 Stingscourgers... is it enough removal?
- What do you think of the SB?
- Prospector is good on MD? I think it can save you from some matchs-ups sacking creatures after blocking to prevent life-link issues, or, of course, against Dredge. The mana can be also useful if we have many tokens around... still I am not fully convinced.
- Any other thought?
All this in an unknown meta, of course, still I don't know the meta in the place I am living now.


About some choices and discussions over here I think the "haste" lords are a must and play very well with Kenkro (shouldn't drop it unless it has haste) but also with tinkerer, sharpshooter, mogg war marshall etc... that's why I choose a number of 7. Could do 3 and 3 but I wouldn't cut a Warchief, as someone has mentioned before, our curve is very high, for me is a must. The Chieftain vs Warchief discussion I think it has not much sense, also someone mentioned, Chieftain vs King should be a more precise discussion, I fully agree with it. Both are very good but I still give a thumbs up to Warchief.

Kenkro vs SGC, I still have to try Kenkro and despite some people doing a 1/2, I would like to try a 2/1.

About W Instigator I remember using it in the past and always found the problem that it didn't hit, or it was too late or I had emptied the hand already when it could hit. I don't see it on the deck although I reckon with Moxes it can be very useful, specially on T1, but still I don't like Moxes due to card disadvantage.

Finally, I would like to ask something, maybe it has been discussed in the past but it is very hard for me to go past the 160 pages of the thread so I am sorry if this has been asked or proposed before. Is it useful (or wise) to use fetches for a monoR? You lose lifepoints but you thin your deck. Is this effect useful?

Best and thanks everyone for this thread,

D.

[Humphrey]

3 Spell Pierce seems ... i dunno, Not Right. A B splash for Therapy just seems so much better (especially with MWM).

I'm probably completely overlooking the element of surprise that running cards like that in a Goblins build allows for. It really is a huge advantage when you have a trick up your sleeve that your opponent just isn't expecting, but, Spell Pierce???

I loved my Pierces too ;)
Theyre really good against combo and 2 are nice against (esper)control, since it counters removal on lackey or E.Plague.

Here is the list I played on the Trials:

4 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Volcanic Island


3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 AEther Vial
2 Stingscourger
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Warren Instigator
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Mogg Fanatic

SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 1 Pyrokinesis

Too bad I lost against Maverick on Trial 1 and Trial 2 against Esperblade.

Best game I had was against RUG where I dealt him 18 damage out of nowhere with lots of Krenko-Tokens ftw.
I never missed the 4th Matron, but since there is a MWM build the best performing goblins list again Ill switch to a MWM configuration.

[magicmerl]

Hello all,

It is the first time I register in MTG The Source although I am a long time reader (stalkers, they call us ;P).
I used to play Goblins until a year and a half ago when I quit Magic due to time-sink reasons... But now I have time again so I decided to revisit my favourite (and only ;p) deck, and happy to see we have new cool cards to add to it!
Welcome aboard LPEuler.


Specially I would like to know your opinion on (and thank you in advance for it):
- 21 Lands, should I add one more?
I think so. 21-22 lands is standard, but you have ports, which call for more mana. I also think that with the shift towards Krenko and Chieftain the mana curve has crept up slightly.

- Cutting 1 Piledriver (remembering that the 4-of was a must in my old lists)... is it wise? Should maybe move to the SB the Sharpshooter? Add a 4th and change another card?
It's a judgement call on Piledriver.

- 3 Incinerators + 2 Stingscourgers... is it enough removal?
Not quite? I mean, you also have SGC and Sharpshooter as well, but it is difficult with the number of slots available.

- What do you think of the SB?
- Prospector is good on MD? I think it can save you from some matchs-ups sacking creatures after blocking to prevent life-link issues, or, of course, against Dredge. The mana can be also useful if we have many tokens around... still I am not fully convinced.
It looks very underwhelming, I agree. I suggest you take it on faith and try it out.

About some choices and discussions over here I think the "haste" lords are a must and play very well with Kenkro (shouldn't drop it unless it has haste) but also with tinkerer, sharpshooter, mogg war marshall etc... that's why I choose a number of 7. Could do 3 and 3 but I wouldn't cut a Warchief, as someone has mentioned before, our curve is very high, for me is a must. The Chieftain vs Warchief discussion I think it has not much sense, also someone mentioned, Chieftain vs King should be a more precise discussion, I fully agree with it. Both are very good but I still give a thumbs up to Warchief.
Agreed.

Kenkro vs SGC, I still have to try Kenkro and despite some people doing a 1/2, I would like to try a 2/1.
A 2/1 split seems right. The question is which shold get a redundant copy.


About W Instigator I remember using it in the past and always found the problem that it didn't hit, or it was too late or I had emptied the hand already when it could hit. I don't see it on the deck although I reckon with Moxes it can be very useful, specially on T1, but still I don't like Moxes due to card disadvantage.
This was my experience with the Instigator/Mox plan as well.

Finally, I would like to ask something, maybe it has been discussed in the past but it is very hard for me to go past the 160 pages of the thread so I am sorry if this has been asked or proposed before. Is it useful (or wise) to use fetches for a monoR? You lose lifepoints but you thin your deck. Is this effect useful?
No, and it lowers your deck quality if you fetch after casting a ringleader too. I don't like them in the mono-R version. I think that Fetches are strictly to enable splashes.

[L10]

Man, I have only been gone for four days, and this topic explodes with reports and new members. I have some reading to catch up on.

A 2/1 split seems right. The question is which shold get a redundant copy
A 2/1 split seems right to me as well. But I think it all depends on how you set up your deck. I have found playing with traditional 14 Red Sources + 8 Mana Denials route with 3 Chieftains + 2 Krenkos extremely difficult, even though it looked good on paper. I had a very hard time to get the second Red Source, considering that Cavern oftentimes gets eaten by Wasteland. However, 3 Chieftain + 2 Krenko is awesome with 16 Red Sources. The two extra Mountains does make a huge difference. This route is also more aggressive, which means I can forgo the control route. If I want to play the traditional route with 14 Red Sources + 8 Mana Denials, I would only play with 1 Chieftain. Since Krenko really loves that haste, while SGC is indifferent, it is better to have SGC. TLDR:

Agressive Route (w/o Winstigator)
12 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
3 Chieftain
2 Krenko
1 SGC

Control Route
10 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 SGC
1 Krenko
1 Chieftain

Also, if the opponent does not have Wastelands, the Control Route can use 3 Chieftains and 2 Krenkos without much issue. But ignoring Wasteland is pretty silly. I still need to work on my Winstigator List. My old list use Rite of Flames, but ever since Caverns came out, Rite of Flames has been quite inconsistent. And I had never liked Chrome Mox. I will probably forgo mana acceleration altogether.

[magicmerl]

L10, I like your reasoning there, but think that the absolute minimum number of lands I would run is 21 (not 20 like you have in the aggro route). And really, 22 feels much better to me.

[L10]

Oh sorry, that's just a basic outline. You, you can run with 22 lands (probably 2 Ports, or other utility lands like Karakas) on the aggro route if you like. The point is that if you want to go with the more aggro route, you should play more Mountains, which necessarily means cutting out Ports. The RR cost is going to get us in tight situations without Vial, and if opponent has Wastelands. Though, I honestly never had issues with 12 Mountains / 4 Caverns / 4 Wastelands.

[supachai]

What're people's sideboards like? I feel pyroblast is fairly useless nowadays, especially since we got Cavern. Pithing needle and chalice are good. Which grave hate is the best? Relic, tormods, extraction, or macabre?

I'm always going to keep 2 copies of Anarchy in the board. I've lost to humility and moat one too many times. It also deals with Stoneforge, Elspeth and Entreat tokens.

I'm thinking something like this:
3 chalice of the void
3 relic of progenitus
3 Pithing needle
2 pyrokinesis
2 anarchy
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 tuktuk scrapper

[Tacosnape]

Not gonna lie. My sideboard currently looks like:
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pithing Needle

I don't like Anarchy. I just feel like it's extremely awkward for me to cast, and against UW Miracles it's the one thing they DO get to counter. And against Enchantress, I expect to just lose anyway. And I don't play red blasts, because screw leaving mana open, and I've got other answers to every blue card I could ever see.

The decks I feel that roll me the worst are Reanimator and Belcher (And anything High Tide or Tendrilsy). So I assign five spots apiece to beat them. Needle is spot 6-7 against Belcher and a neat tool against Sneak Attack, but in some metagames I'd just run another Crypt and another Mindbreak Trap.

[orcanmail]

Also, if the opponent does not have Wastelands, the Control Route can use 3 Chieftains and 2 Krenkos without much issue. But ignoring Wasteland is pretty silly. I still need to work on my Winstigator List. My old list use Rite of Flames, but ever since Caverns came out, Rite of Flames has been quite inconsistent. And I had never liked Chrome Mox. I will probably forgo mana acceleration altogether.[/QUOTE]

I pack 2 Instigators in my chieftain list. I forgo mana acceleration and make up for it by being heavy on removal ( 4 tarfire, 4 Gempalm, 2 Stingscourgers ) and also by keeping my mana curve down. Only 4 Ringleaders, 2 SGC, and 4 lords and 4 matrons above 2 cc. Although I'll probably add 1 Krenko by cutting piledriver from 3 to 2 as he seems worth it.

My current SB looks like

4 Chalice
4 Relic
3 Pyrokenesis
3 Thorn of amethyst
1 Sharpshooter

No room for Tuk Tuk or Tinkerer is my main concern.

[orcanmail]

Also as a side note although i know this is a legacy forum we are all gobbo players, so has anyone ever tried Krenko as an EDH Commander. He's fun and you can fit in the old favs like goblin wizard etc

[LPEuler]

No, and it lowers your deck quality if you fetch after casting a ringleader too. I don't like them in the mono-R version. I think that Fetches are strictly to enable splashes.

This is what I thought. Thanks for the insight!


Man, I have only been gone for four days, and this topic explodes with reports and new members. I have some reading to catch up on.

A 2/1 split seems right to me as well. But I think it all depends on how you set up your deck. I have found playing with traditional 14 Red Sources + 8 Mana Denials route with 3 Chieftains + 2 Krenkos extremely difficult, even though it looked good on paper. I had a very hard time to get the second Red Source, considering that Cavern oftentimes gets eaten by Wasteland. However, 3 Chieftain + 2 Krenko is awesome with 16 Red Sources. The two extra Mountains does make a huge difference. This route is also more aggressive, which means I can forgo the control route. If I want to play the traditional route with 14 Red Sources + 8 Mana Denials, I would only play with 1 Chieftain. Since Krenko really loves that haste, while SGC is indifferent, it is better to have SGC. TLDR:

Agressive Route (w/o Winstigator)
12 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
3 Chieftain
2 Krenko
1 SGC

Control Route
10 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 SGC
1 Krenko
1 Chieftain

Also, if the opponent does not have Wastelands, the Control Route can use 3 Chieftains and 2 Krenkos without much issue. But ignoring Wasteland is pretty silly. I still need to work on my Winstigator List. My old list use Rite of Flames, but ever since Caverns came out, Rite of Flames has been quite inconsistent. And I had never liked Chrome Mox. I will probably forgo mana acceleration altogether.

Indeed it appeared very good on the paper but if you say that testing it has proved it to be short on R sources I take your word.

I personally like the aggro way better, the ports are nice but I think they are not, in general, game-changing and I think an aggro list can be harder to be answered by other decks.

As some people mention there, 20 mana sources seem way too few. You never had a problem with it? I mean, my list included 21 but I would love to include 20.
In that case I would do -3 Ports +2 Mountains +1 Piledriver (to complete the set) or maybe just -3 Ports +3 Mountains (+2 Mountains +1 Port sounds a little stupid to me...). What is your opinion on playing with 13 R sources (instead of 12 I said, or the 14 you proposed) and keeping 2 ports?

[LPEuler]

Not gonna lie. My sideboard currently looks like:
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pithing Needle

I don't like Anarchy. I just feel like it's extremely awkward for me to cast, and against UW Miracles it's the one thing they DO get to counter. And against Enchantress, I expect to just lose anyway. And I don't play red blasts, because screw leaving mana open, and I've got other answers to every blue card I could ever see.

The decks I feel that roll me the worst are Reanimator and Belcher (And anything High Tide or Tendrilsy). So I assign five spots apiece to beat them. Needle is spot 6-7 against Belcher and a neat tool against Sneak Attack, but in some metagames I'd just run another Crypt and another Mindbreak Trap.

Why you choose Faerie Macabre over Grafdigger's Cage? What advantages does it suposse?

[ScatmanX]

Why you choose Faerie Macabre over Grafdigger's Cage? What advantages does it suposse?
Not getting countered or Bounced by Reanimator, that is the deck he is trying to fight with the SB, and having some use against Past in Flames / Ill Gotten Gains combo decks.

I don't really have all that time to post nowadays, but I try to read this thread every time I can. You guys are doing an amazing work.

@list played on GP: I agree with jrw there, and think the B splash could be better, because of Therapies. Either way, I only count 7 lands that can cast that spell, and taht is, in my book, 3-4 less than what I'd be willing to play if I wanted to cast that spell turn 1.

[jrw1985]

I've been playing Leylines in my SB for some time now. I think I need to switch it up and play a 2/2 split of Faerie Macabre and Extraction. It isn't because I think they're more powerful than Leylines, but they are more Playable. Leyline gives you zero element of surprise. You have to mull into oblivion to find them and risk losing to your opponent's Plan B or Answer. Playing graveyard hate that can be played off the top of the deck with the element of surprise gives you a distinct advantage, it seems. There are also many decks running midrange graveyard recursion (Esper Stoneblade et al) against which Leyline is terrible but grave hate is still relevant.

What do you think, Christian? Is blowing out Dredge still worth it?

[jrw1985]

Off Topic but Thread Appropriate...

If you're playing against Dredge and have them under a Leyline of the Void plus you have an active Goblin Sharpshooter and your opponent has a Zombie token and a Narcomoeba and you activate Sharpshooter to kill Narcomoeba your Sharpshooter will NOT untap. If you kill the Zombie token your Sharpshooter WILL untap.

[ScatmanX]

Off Topic but Thread Appropriate...

If you're playing against Dredge and have them under a Leyline of the Void plus you have an active Goblin Sharpshooter and your opponent has a Zombie token and a Narcomoeba and you activate Sharpshooter to kill Narcomoeba your Sharpshooter will NOT untap. If you kill the Zombie token your Sharpshooter WILL untap.
Wow. That's actually true. Never would have thought of that. Thanks.

[Cleston]

great post.


Man, I have only been gone for four days, and this topic explodes with reports and new members. I have some reading to catch up on.



maybe it's a krenko effect? a new staple could have pushed people into the archetype? it was not my case, but I can see it happening.


A 2/1 split seems right to me as well. But I think it all depends on how you set up your deck. I have found playing with traditional 14 Red Sources + 8 Mana Denials route with 3 Chieftains + 2 Krenkos extremely difficult, even though it looked good on paper. I had a very hard time to get the second Red Source, considering that Cavern oftentimes gets eaten by Wasteland. However, 3 Chieftain + 2 Krenko is awesome with 16 Red Sources. The two extra Mountains does make a huge difference. This route is also more aggressive, which means I can forgo the control route. If I want to play the traditional route with 14 Red Sources + 8 Mana Denials, I would only play with 1 Chieftain. Since Krenko really loves that haste, while SGC is indifferent, it is better to have SGC. TLDR:

Agressive Route (w/o Winstigator)
12 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
3 Chieftain
2 Krenko
1 SGC

Control Route
10 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 SGC
1 Krenko
1 Chieftain

I really like this, makes total sense to me. This also explains why I am no fond of Rishadan Port altogether, I'm fond of tapping my goblins.

But between Krenko and SGC, the one I'd rather cheat into play from a Lackey as early as possible is SGC, so my list actually run 2 copies of each. I know it's no big deal, but still more consistent play than playing a singleton and having to search for it.


Also, if the opponent does not have Wastelands, the Control Route can use 3 Chieftains and 2 Krenkos without much issue. But ignoring Wasteland is pretty silly. I still need to work on my Winstigator List. My old list use Rite of Flames, but ever since Caverns came out, Rite of Flames has been quite inconsistent. And I had never liked Chrome Mox. I will probably forgo mana acceleration altogether.

Exactly the same situation happened to me when using rite of flame in a list with 4 cavern of souls. I don't really like the idea of dropping wastelands, so I guess mana acceleration comes at a high price these days, and I sure won't be paying it.

[dsck]

More of Cavern of the Souls pulling people than Krenko IMO.

[Cleston]

two more tidbits, before this topics get old:

@progenitus: I've been wondering about Phantasmal Image for a while. Seriously, having the option to copy any goblin in play except for Krenko sure could be nice, while also having the ability to kill a legend if needed. You could play it from a Volcanic (which I actually don't have :cry:) or you could also play it from a Cavern on Illusion.

I know, I know, suboptimal, and yadda yadda. But still it's an answer if this protection from everything gets too noisy in your meta, and it's also in a good color for solutions overall.


@sideboard: all I know is that I'm playing 4 Leyline of the Void. The rest shifts, I've had 3 Krosan Grips, 3 Chokes, 3 Perishes...

By the way, I've seen Pithing Needle a lot in this topic. Is it a must? Does it solve the matter or does it get you some extra time?

[Cleston]

last but not least, I just wanted to point out how great a cavern on goblin can be for a Tin-street Hooligan, even if your Taigas are nowhere to be found. Just tap Cavern for green, you are using it on a Goblin anyway... am I right?

[from Cairo]

I think Phatasmal Image is grossly underrated in Legacy, but idk Goblins is where it should be pushed. The cipt effects are great to copy though, so considering the Blue splash the card should certainly be tested.

Out of curiosity what's up with the recent move to Leyline of the Void the past couple months? I've always ran Tormod's Crypts and/or Faerie Macabre, but have been seeing mostly Leylines in placing lists.

On how to dedicate the 2-3 'finisher' slots, I'm leaning towards 2 Krenko, 1 SGC. SGC is more explosive off a Lackey, but Lackey connecting in general is usually going to generate too much tempo advantage for most decks to come back from.

[Davran]

Out of curiosity what's up with the recent move to Leyline of the Void the past couple months? I've always ran Tormod's Crypts and/or Faerie Macabre, but have been seeing mostly Leylines in placing lists.

Opposing graveyard decks (dredge, reanimator etc.) expect us to bring in artifact based hate since we're not playing black. So when they sideboard, they're putting in Ancient Grudge or some similar anti-artifact card to force you to pop your Crypt/Relic on their terms. When you drop a Leyline instead, they often don't have an answer in their main deck, which significantly alters/stops their overall plan. In fact, some Dredge players (here in the US anyway) don't have any outs to Leyline by design since it's not a very popular choice in the meta (go figure)...so sometimes a turn 0 Leyline is just a free win.

That said, I prefer grave hate that I can actually cast/use in the middle to late game should I draw it. I don't want to have to try and mulligan into a Leyline, and I certainly don't want to draw that 2nd Leyline later on. I've been packing Relic lately (sometimes useful against RUG and other non-dredge decks). I'd probably pack some number of Faeries if there was more reanimator in my meta, but thankfully Relic has been enough if I run into the deck.

[Achamian]

@davran: Dunno, but the Dredge players I know of ALL play the full set of Nature´s Claim in their sideboards, so it doesn't really matter if I play enchantment- or artifact hate.

Right now, I'm playing a split of 2 Crypts, 2 Relics and 2 Extractions in my sideboard. Probably too much and I will take at least 1 Crypt out, because Dredge and Reanimate isn't played too much in my area anymore, but so far I really liked having access to those cards. Don't like Leyline myself, because taking mulligan over mulligan just to have one in my starting hand is quite bad.

[Talanos]

Skirk Prospector: he's in the spot of my 22nd land. He's the one that can deal with Jitte. He's the one that synergizes with Krenko (when needed). I won't cut him.


Prospector is busted with Krenko. Don't cut him.

Lots of love for Prospector. Question: do you ever Matron for him or is it just all about randomly drawing into him and hoping the board state supports his use? For instance, if you were trying to deal with Jitte, wouldn't you Matron for a TukTuk instead? If you had Krenko, wouldn't you want a Chieftain or SCG instead? In general, wouldn't you want a Ringleader?

Observation: Pyrokenesis seems to be the non-goblin-shaped removal of choice these days. Goblins has placed highly at the last three weeks' worth of SCGs (Krenko is showing up frequently!). Most ran Pyro as its main deck or sideboard removal spell of choice. We seem to be firmly in mono-red territory; gone are the Perish, Ruins, and Plagues of old. Bolt and Tarfire also seem scarce. Thoughts, opinions, conclusions?

[ScatmanX]

Lots of love for Prospector. Question: do you ever Matron for him or is it just all about randomly drawing into him and hoping the board state supports his use? For instance, if you were trying to deal with Jitte, wouldn't you Matron for a TukTuk instead? If you had Krenko, wouldn't you want a Chieftain or SCG instead? In general, wouldn't you want a Ringleader?

Observation: Pyrokenesis seems to be the non-goblin-shaped removal of choice these days. Goblins has placed highly at the last three weeks' worth of SCGs (Krenko is showing up frequently!). Most ran Pyro as its main deck or sideboard removal spell of choice. We seem to be firmly in mono-red territory; gone are the Perish, Ruins, and Plagues of old. Bolt and Tarfire also seem scarce. Thoughts, opinions, conclusions?
Sometimes I do search for him, but you have to be in a great position, or with another gas-goblin on your hand. Also, he's better when Warchief is online too. It allows lines of play where you can Matron for it, cast it, tap Krenko, cast Ringleader, sac the tokens to cast whatever goblins you get. If you need to go fast, he's quite good.
I'll have a tournament this weekend, and will try to right down whenever he shows up at random and when I Matron for him, for us to discuss later.

About removal: Knesis is certainly the most powerful and has the widest range of them all. Not costing any mana is a big plust too, meaning we can disrupt other agroo decks without slowing us down. Also, is the best I can think of against Maverick. That makes the go-to removal spell for me.
If the meta changes, maybe some other card can take it's place.

[GoblinSettler]

I think Phatasmal Image is grossly underrated in Legacy, but idk Goblins is where it should be pushed. The cipt effects are great to copy though, so considering the Blue splash the card should certainly be tested.

Phyrexian Metamorph is another option.
Costing three to cast does not seem like much of a downside, as it would be more of a mid or late game play.
Vialing in on four seems more likely. At least for me, I usually aim to keep vial at three.
Bonus points for shattering a Jitte.

[GoboLord]

I've been playing Leylines in my SB for some time now. I think I need to switch it up and play a 2/2 split of Faerie Macabre and Extraction. It isn't because I think they're more powerful than Leylines, but they are more Playable. Leyline gives you zero element of surprise. You have to mull into oblivion to find them and risk losing to your opponent's Plan B or Answer. Playing graveyard hate that can be played off the top of the deck with the element of surprise gives you a distinct advantage, it seems. There are also many decks running midrange graveyard recursion (Esper Stoneblade et al) against which Leyline is terrible but grave hate is still relevant.

What do you think, Christian? Is blowing out Dredge still worth it?

I have some problems with bringing in GY hate in small numbers against decks that don't really rely on the graveyard as much. The problem is that if you run non-Goblin-cards in your SB as a 1- or 2-off you are unlikeley to draw them at the time when you need them. Let's take your example of boarding cards like Faerie Macabre and Extraction against Esperblade:
The problem in this MU is early Stonefrogs -->equipments and Lingering Souls (those cards are quite literally their ONLY winning conditions. If you bring in extraction effects (that only steal 2-4 Spirit tokens) you better draw it at the time when Lingering Souls is in their GY. If you draw them AFTER they flashbacked Lingering Souls the card in question is quite dead on your hand until they cast ANOTHER Lingering Souls (or Snapcaster). In this situation they have already produces 6 Tokens (which is usually all they need). ABout Snapdude: "countering" Snapcastermage's ability isn't too effective IMO. As you can see: drawing Extraction effects NOT at the right time sucks. Therefore you need at least 3 pieces of Extraction in your deck after G1. This is fine, of yourse, if you have enough cards too board out, but usually I have trouble siding out Goblins for situative non-Goblins (like Extractions/Macabre). Plus, at the end of it all your graveyard hate does nothing against the bigger problem: Stoneforge Mystic. And that's why I wouldn't bring GYH (aka. Extractions) at all.
The same is true for Maverick (graveyard recoursion, but do you really want Extractions here?).
The other "graveyard recoursion decks" are Dredge and Reanimator against which I find Leyline waaay better that extraction effects.
The only deck where Extractions effects really ARE worth boarding AND are better than Leylines is Sneak Show. However, I highly doubt that extractions make the difference here, since the deck can usually fight through much more than that. I personally just accept the SNeakShow MU as being a coin-flip (who is faster: the constitant aggro-deck or the inconstitant T3-combo deck?)

It'S possible that I'm overlooking something - in that case I'd like you to tell me in which MUs you want to bring in Extraction effects.

[Vacrix]

I think Phatasmal Image is grossly underrated in Legacy, but idk Goblins is where it should be pushed. The cipt effects are great to copy though, so considering the Blue splash the card should certainly be tested.The problem with trying to copy Goblins with CIP effects is that your Vial is likely already ticked up higher than 2 to cheat those creatures into play. That means you need the Volcanic Island or you need to drop those creatures with Lackey and then Vial in the Image when Vial is at 2. Seems like a lot to ask from the deck especially when you consider that you can't draw Image off Ringleader. Image is probably the danger of cool things and will sit dead in your hand unless you have that Volcanic Island.

[Pee-Dee-2]

About GY-hate:

I'm also playing Leylines at the moment and I am satisfied with them.
Surely the problem is to mull into it. But on the other hand, if you would have done it, you often would have won!
No deck is able to do something against a turn 0 Leyline. Nature's claim has to be in opponent's starting hand, otherwise we have about 2-3 more turns to fight for the win.

What is the best time, to draw into Crypts, Extractions and Macabre? Against Dredge there is none. If you draw one of them in the early game, the Dredgeman can play around it. If you draw them in the midgame, the best card would be Crypt but often comes to late.

If you draw them in the latgame...forget...there will be no lategame.

Against Reanimator: Someone don't want to mull into Leyline? So he/she has to mull into Macarbre/Extraction becuase you need them in the first 8 cards. Also Extractions can be countered. So it doesn't metter into which card you have to mull, does it?

The question isn't "What is the best GY-hate?". It is: "What GY decks will I am gonna play against?"

Dredge? -> Leyline
Reanimator -> Leyline / Macabre
Sneakshow -> Extractions / Extirpates
ANT -> if you need something, take Macabre

In my opionion it doesn't make sense to do things like a 2/2/2 split. You always will get the worst card against your opponent. Than better don't board and start with a Lackey. Or mull into the hate, but than often Leyline will be the answer.

Last words: If you think, the matchups are a coinflip and you don't want to mull into hate, take a fast opening hand and overrun the opponent. Often this is better than mull into something.

It is often not bad to mull and go down to X. It is often more bad to keep hands and hope to draw something or to hope not to die so fast!

So I hope, I get it all right and you regret my English. I could write books about cards like Leylines or Pyrokinesis in Goblindecks :wink: But I often can't say everything I want in English (maybe have to ask GoboLord to translate my words :laugh:)

[Nelis]

Why are Extractions so good against SneakShow? They're of no use when they Show and Tell their creatures into play nor when they put them into play with Sneak Attack. If Emrakul attacks you're screwed anyway and a Progenitus that attacks once from a Sneak Attack isn't the end of the world. Only if they play Intuition it might be of some use but most lists play only 2 and the one from Ghent none. I'd rather put in a couple of Pithing Needles against Sneak Attack or maybe even nothing at all. Unless I'm missing something essential here I don't think that match-up warrants boarding Extraction/Extirpate since its uses would be too random .

In the Leyline discussions I always miss one aspect of discussion. And that is that there are also decks where you might only want to side in 1 or 2 graveyard removal. You can't do that with Leylines. That's why I always prefer other non-leyline graveyard removal so I have more options.

I also don't like having to mulligan if the hand is otherwise very acceptable to keep, then I'd rather take my chances and draw into graveyard removal. I also don't think one can flat out argue that mulliganning into a leyline means you've won. Maybe if you're lucky enough to only have to mull to 6 but what if you have to mull to lower cards in hand? Then you're opponent has plenty of time to find an answer before you can put any pressure on.

[orcanmail]

I currently play with relics as they deal with goyfs and mongooses, and they can also be used as GY hate, plus they cantrip.
However they are slower, and I used to go with leylines of the void for speed, but relics do the job against goyfs which as i play removal is important for my list in my meta.

[unicoerner]

Are we right now just accepting losing to Show and Tell Decks?
Extirpate and Extraction as our grave hate could do at least some splash damage here.
If we start again playing more MWM we could try 1/2 Badlands + some fetches and play 4 cabals in the side to fight all sorts of combo.
IF we squeeze one Earwig Squad in the side, we could perhaps do some harm in addition to either Thorns or Mindbreak Traps. Perhaps Thorns, because they are better vs Show and Tell.

[Pee-Dee-2]

About Relic: It everything right about it. At the GP day 2 there were the first times nowadays, I lost against RUG Delver but it didn't depends on Relics. There were no situation in which they would have won me the games.
All other gemes about RUG, I won by playing Goblins, remove there Delver and playing Chalices. So I will not gonna play Relics in this matchup and would say, we don't need them (only my opinion).

@unicorner: Why do we accept the loss? Against Show and Tell into Emrakul we have Matron, Ringleader and Stingscourger. Against Sneak Attack, we have our own speed. To make Therapy effective, you always to play t twice by sacc a creature. Do we want to do it, when our opponent only have to counter it or play a Brainstorm? Against other Kombodecks like ANT, all the years, I didn't think Therapy did have done a good job.

Squad: I love this card. But against GY decks it is to lame. It is nice against UW or Esper but not against Show and Tell and other!

[JeroenC]

If you already have a hastelord out, Krenko is also pretty good vs S&T into Emrakul.

[ScatmanX]

Squad: I love this card. But against GY decks it is to lame. It is nice against UW or Esper but not against Show and Tell and other!
Their good because sometimes they don't have a combo piece on their hand when you Prowl him. That means, they either have SnT/Sneak on their hand, or Grizle/Emrakul. You can discover that by counting the ones on their deck. Making they need to find one of 5 cards to win, is better than making they find one out of 8 to win.

@Grave-hate discussion: I like having 2 Relics at least because their awesome against Canadian and Maverick any given state of the game. They don't deal with ALL their threats, but they cantrip, making you don't waste a card.
And I like splitting because I don't usually mull that hard into hate. If I'm against Dredge and have Lackey + some removal + gas, I'll probably keep. Same as against reanimator.

I'm curious to test Phyrexian Metamorph. It not being a goblin is not really an argument for me right now, since we are running 34+goblins nowadays, which is a quite high number. It is cool against Emrakul, Grizzle, Jitte, and well, is synergistic with our own deck too. Will give it a spin.

[woremak]

I've been playing R/G and I run a 3-1 split between Grafdigger's Cage and Relic of Progenitus. I don't think boarding in cards like Relic or Cage is where you want to be in the Maverick matchup, although I could see bringing in a relic against RUG if you wanted to make your deck have a lower curve. In general, I only really want to board in grave hate when playing against Dredge, Reanimator, etc.

[Achamian]

The only reason I'm not playing Leyline of the Void is I really hate taking mulligan over mulligan to find it.

Sure it's better than Crypt/Relic or whatever GY hate you have against Dredge IF YOU HAVE IT in your starting hand, but, in my opinion, it's not always wise to take a mulligan. And there's absolutely no guarantee finding your Leyline when taking a mulligan.

Like someone said before, I prefer keeping a REALLY good hand and hope to find my Crypt/Relic in the next few turns. It sucks when you have to mulligan away a good hand, just because there's no Leyline. I think that's better than keeping a (probably) medicore hand with zero pressure but with Leyline.

[LPEuler]

Agressive Route (w/o Winstigator)
12 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
3 Chieftain
2 Krenko
1 SGC

Control Route
10 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 SGC
1 Krenko
1 Chieftain



L10, I followed your advice upping the number of mountains but I decided to try with 11 and 2 ports (21 lands total, I still believe 20 may be too low). It is true it is better with more mountains, I feel 11 is a good number, in 30 matches I just had a problem casting any of the 7 haste-lords in 1 match where I had M, Wasteland and Port. The rest was perfectly fine. Ports, even as a 2-off, were fine in some matches.

Thanks for your input.

[LPEuler]

I would like to ask something to the most experienced players on this deck (I know it is a lot of hard word but it could be very helpful for the ones, like me, that are starting with this deck). I know it may not be feasible but I leave the idea here.

I have seen in many decks on the forums, a Match-Up section. I think that would be very interesting to include for Goblins too, on the first post of the thread, at least against the decks to beat and/or our worse MUs. I think it would be specially useful to include:
- Best cards against the MU.
- Worst threats of the MU and how to counter them.
- General best strategy against the deck (what to matron, what to play etc).
- Hands to keep / Hands to mull.
- Best stuff to side in.
- % of Winrate.
- Any other useful info.

What do you think? Could this be possible?

[ScatmanX]

What do you think? Could this be possible?
Yeah, but would require a whole lot of work... like, a LOT. And even then, most of us would disagree on more than half of those informations (not that it is a bad thing. The Primer is a guide, not something set in stone).
It is a nice idea. Maybe when University is over I'll be able to help on something like that.

Bu if you want those things for some specific matchups, feel free to ask.

On another note: I really want to try Phyrexian Metamorph. Have anyone really tested him here? I know why he is good, I know why he is bad (in theory). I just want to know if anyone actually playtested him and have some information to share.
Thanks.

[akabidu]

Off Topic but Thread Appropriate...

If you're playing against Dredge and have them under a Leyline of the Void plus you have an active Goblin Sharpshooter and your opponent has a Zombie token and a Narcomoeba and you activate Sharpshooter to kill Narcomoeba your Sharpshooter will NOT untap. If you kill the Zombie token your Sharpshooter WILL untap.

nice to know.

[raindrainxi]

I would like to ask something to the most experienced players on this deck (I know it is a lot of hard word but it could be very helpful for the ones, like me, that are starting with this deck). I know it may not be feasible but I leave the idea here.

I have seen in many decks on the forums, a Match-Up section. I think that would be very interesting to include for Goblins too, on the first post of the thread, at least against the decks to beat and/or our worse MUs. I think it would be specially useful to include:
- Best cards against the MU.
- Worst threats of the MU and how to counter them.
- General best strategy against the deck (what to matron, what to play etc).
- Hands to keep / Hands to mull.
- Best stuff to side in.
- % of Winrate.
- Any other useful info.

What do you think? Could this be possible?

The old primers of the previous threads had a Match-ups section to them. IIRC Gobolord opted not to put one on the current primer because of the simple fact that match-ups change very often and that would mean the information in the primer should be updated often, or become irrelevant.

Personally I think it is a very good idea. I would suggest, if it is possible, that we provide a link to Google document in the primer which can be updated regularly by everyone. I don't know the logistics of such a venture but I think that way the information is always relevant, and the primer maintains itself.

[L10]

L10, I followed your advice upping the number of mountains but I decided to try with 11 and 2 ports (21 lands total, I still believe 20 may be too low). It is true it is better with more mountains, I feel 11 is a good number, in 30 matches I just had a problem casting any of the 7 haste-lords in 1 match where I had M, Wasteland and Port. The rest was perfectly fine. Ports, even as a 2-off, were fine in some matches.
Have you tried going with lower land counts? At my local store, I try stuff out all the time, even with cards that are not competitive, just to see their value. I think the land count can go as low as 18 if you take away Wastelands, but I don't recommend it. Though, it may be okay if you have two or three Chrome Moxes. 20 lands is the lowest count I am comfortable with without mana dorks.


Lots of love for Prospector. Question: do you ever Matron for him or is it just all about randomly drawing into him and hoping the board state supports his use?
Yes, but only when I have an awesome board position. Like if I have Warchief and a couple other goblins in play, and a Ringleader at hand. Warchief + Prospector + Gas can produce combo-like results and overrun your opponent. I had a couple alpha strikes because of Prospector, though rare. You just have to trust your instincts.


On another note: I really want to try Phyrexian Metamorph. Have anyone really tested him here? I know why he is good, I know why he is bad (in theory). I just want to know if anyone actually playtested him and have some information to share.
Actually, I want to try him too. I think I will replace my Tuktuk/Tinkerer and Stingscourger for him. I will try to run three copies of him. Him copying an opposing Batterskull sounds delicious.

[GoboLord]

The old primers of the previous threads had a Match-ups section to them. IIRC Gobolord opted not to put one on the current primer because of the simple fact that match-ups change very often and that would mean the information in the primer should be updated often, or become irrelevant.


That's not all. I don't like such MU-section because there are to many variables that can be taken into account. Let me show you what I mean:

Let's say there are 2 different versions of RUG Thresh. Version "S" has Stifle, Version "T" features Tome Scour.
Having Stifle or not makes a huge difference for Goblins. So we have 2 different MUs for 1 deck.
"S" vs. Goblins
"T" vs. Goblins
Now we take into account that there are so many different Goblin decklists, like "P" (with a playset of Piledrivers), or "WI" (with Instigators) or "MWM" (with Mogg War Marshals) and literally any combination of those. While Instigator make this MU usually worse, MWM makes it easier. However, if RUG doesn't feature Stifle WInstigators are better than MWMs for this MU.
"S" vs. "P, WI"
"S" vs. "P, MWM"
"S" vs. "WI"
...
I guess you get the picture.
If I do something I'd rather do it good and thoroughly - and this is simply not possible in this case. When someone is to write something about Goblin MUs he/she should somehow take the huge variability of Goblin decklists into account.

Hoewever, I can imagine to write something like a list of key-cards of other decks. e.g. If we play against Stoneblade we can all agree that we don't lose to Snapcastermage but to a combination of Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull, Jitte and Lingering Souls. This way people don't focus on the wrong things (like boarding Extraction-effects against Snapcaster Mage and Lingering Souls (sry, Jon =P). If we know the key-cards we can easily build our decklists accordingly (and everyone can do that individually, taking the frequency of the goven deck into account).

[LPEuler]

That's not all. I don't like such MU-section because there are to many variables that can be taken into account. Let me show you what I mean:

Let's say there are 2 different versions of RUG Thresh. Version "S" has Stifle, Version "T" features Tome Scour.
Having Stifle or not makes a huge difference for Goblins. So we have 2 different MUs for 1 deck.
"S" vs. Goblins
"T" vs. Goblins
Now we take into account that there are so many different Goblin decklists, like "P" (with a playset of Piledrivers), or "WI" (with Instigators) or "MWM" (with Mogg War Marshals) and literally any combination of those. While Instigator make this MU usually worse, MWM makes it easier. However, if RUG doesn't feature Stifle WInstigators are better than MWMs for this MU.
"S" vs. "P, WI"
"S" vs. "P, MWM"
"S" vs. "WI"
...
I guess you get the picture.
If I do something I'd rather do it good and thoroughly - and this is simply not possible in this case. When someone is to write something about Goblin MUs he/she should somehow take the huge variability of Goblin decklists into account.

Hoewever, I can imagine to write something like a list of key-cards of other decks. e.g. If we play against Stoneblade we can all agree that we don't lose to Snapcastermage but to a combination of Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull, Jitte and Lingering Souls. This way people don't focus on the wrong things (like boarding Extraction-effects against Snapcaster Mage and Lingering Souls (sry, Jon =P). If we know the key-cards we can easily build our decklists accordingly (and everyone can do that individually, taking the frequency of the goven deck into account).

Exactly!
Maybe a thorough MU list is difficult but your latter paragraph describes what I feel this thread needs (at least for us, new on the Goblin game). I sitll know it is a lot of work and maybe there is noone with the willingness (or the time) to do it, but I think that knowing the biggest threats and how to deal with them would make people learn and play better the deck.

[LPEuler]

Have you tried going with lower land counts? At my local store, I try stuff out all the time, even with cards that are not competitive, just to see their value. I think the land count can go as low as 18 if you take away Wastelands, but I don't recommend it. Though, it may be okay if you have two or three Chrome Moxes. 20 lands is the lowest count I am comfortable with without mana dorks.


Yes, but only when I have an awesome board position. Like if I have Warchief and a couple other goblins in play, and a Ringleader at hand. Warchief + Prospector + Gas can produce combo-like results and overrun your opponent. I had a couple alpha strikes because of Prospector, though rare. You just have to trust your instincts.


Actually, I want to try him too. I think I will replace my Tuktuk/Tinkerer and Stingscourger for him. I will try to run three copies of him. Him copying an opposing Batterskull sounds delicious.

@Lands: I still haven't tried with lower but I think I will do it. I need more testing on it. On the other hand, getting totally rid of the ports is (still) painfull for me.

@Trying new things even if they doesn't seem competitive: That's fun and a good way to discover new things. I will do this as well, but first I want to get very used to the deck.

@Prospector: I find it very useful as a 1-of and also have fallen on the same situations as L10 says. It is sometimes useful to sack a goblin too (Jitte, Dredge...) and it is nice this effect can be done as soon as the prospector is in play.

@The Morph guy: I want to try it too but stingscourger seems very valuable for me to replace. Helps so much with Lackey connecting T2, bounce and block, bounce annoying stuff... In fact sometimes I find it even more useful than Gempalm (I run 3 Gempalms and 2 Stingscourgers and I feel I need more removal...).

L10 your list (posted 4 pages ago or so) it is my favourite I have seen so far and in fact my list is almost a copy of yours, I just want to thank you too.

[Amon Amarth]

That's not all. I don't like such MU-section because there are to many variables that can be taken into account. Let me show you what I mean:

Let's say there are 2 different versions of RUG Thresh. Version "S" has Stifle, Version "T" features Tome Scour.
Having Stifle or not makes a huge difference for Goblins. So we have 2 different MUs for 1 deck.
"S" vs. Goblins
"T" vs. Goblins
Now we take into account that there are so many different Goblin decklists, like "P" (with a playset of Piledrivers), or "WI" (with Instigators) or "MWM" (with Mogg War Marshals) and literally any combination of those. While Instigator make this MU usually worse, MWM makes it easier. However, if RUG doesn't feature Stifle WInstigators are better than MWMs for this MU.
"S" vs. "P, WI"
"S" vs. "P, MWM"
"S" vs. "WI"
...
I guess you get the picture.
If I do something I'd rather do it good and thoroughly - and this is simply not possible in this case. When someone is to write something about Goblin MUs he/she should somehow take the huge variability of Goblin decklists into account.

Hoewever, I can imagine to write something like a list of key-cards of other decks. e.g. If we play against Stoneblade we can all agree that we don't lose to Snapcastermage but to a combination of Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull, Jitte and Lingering Souls. This way people don't focus on the wrong things (like boarding Extraction-effects against Snapcaster Mage and Lingering Souls (sry, Jon =P). If we know the key-cards we can easily build our decklists accordingly (and everyone can do that individually, taking the frequency of the goven deck into account).

Well put. To elaborate a bit more, one of the reasons this matchups can vary so much is that Goblins card advantage engine makes it fairly easy to see large portions of our decks and the Goblins that kick ass in some matchups will come up more frequently making games significantly easier than without said Goblins e.g. MWM against 'Goyf beatdown: GTFO, get fogged bitch. Of course the opposite is also true. Ever draw a Tuktuk Scrapper against someone with no artifacts? Barf.

Honestly, the best advice is playtest, playtest, playtest a lot, pre and postboard. I can't stress this enough. There are so many little things you can do with this deck that can never be taught.

[Nelis]

I'm still debating on whether to play Rishadan Port or not. I am playing a 'control' version. I'm playing 22 lands (4 cavern, 4 waste, 3 Port, mountains). I'm debating if its of any use to go down to 2 Ports.

What use is running 2 ports if it decreases the chance of consistently drawing them? They're usually only really good with Aether Vial anyway. Does the deck not benefit more from the stability of running more mountains?

Or should the decision of running ports just simply be based on the expected metagame and nothing else?


Are we right now just accepting losing to Show and Tell Decks?

If you play an aggro deck there will always be match-ups you have to accept losing to. If you want to stand a chance against the majority of the decks you should be playing another archetype (control). Most aggro decks are just simply too ill equipped to win from combo. There's not enough space in your sideboard to fight every combo deck. And you also can't just add sideboard cards without losing the integrity of your deck.



Extirpate and Extraction as our grave hate could do at least some splash damage here.

Like I tried to point out in my post I don't think Extirpate/Extraction have any relevant impact in the Sneakshow match-up. In what scenario do they help?

[GoboLord]

I'm still debating on whether to play Rishadan Port or not. I am playing a 'control' version. I'm playing 22 lands (4 cavern, 4 waste, 3 Port, mountains). I'm debating if its of any use to go down to 2 Ports.

What use is running 2 ports if it decreases the chance of consistently drawing them? They're usually only really good with Aether Vial anyway. Does the deck not benefit more from the stability of running more mountains?

Or should the decision of running ports just simply be based on the expected metagame and nothing else?
It is indeed an option to runy only 2 Ports. I had them in my deck for the last half year (as a 2-of in fact) and all I wanted from was that they should be better than mountains. If you feel like you can afford more colorless sources run Ports. If you want a stable manabase then dont run any. It's not a good idea IMO to run 4 Ports alongside with 4 Caverns and 4 Wastelands-




Like I tried to point out in my post I don't think Extirpate/Extraction have any relevant impact in the Sneakshow match-up. In what scenario do they help?
You can use Extraction-effects after they resolved Intuition (they will oftentimes search for 3 copies of the same card). Maybe you'll take their Show and Tell. Maybe you'll take their Sneak Attack. That's it.

[Nelis]

It is indeed an option to runy only 2 Ports. I had them in my deck for the last half year (as a 2-of in fact) and all I wanted from was that they should be better than mountains. If you feel like you can afford more colorless sources run Ports. If you want a stable manabase then dont run any. It's not a good idea IMO to run 4 Ports alongside with 4 Caverns and 4 Wastelands-


But did you feel that those 2 Ports had any relevant impact? I mean of what use are they if you can't disrupt your opponent early game unless you're lucky to have one in your openings hand (but thats so random)? Did you find them of any use late game?


You can use Extraction-effects after they resolved Intuition (they will oftentimes search for 3 copies of the same card). Maybe you'll take their Show and Tell. Maybe you'll take their Sneak Attack. That's it.

To me that hardly seems worth it.

[GoboLord]

But did you feel that those 2 Ports had any relevant impact? I mean of what use are they if you can't disrupt your opponent early game unless you're lucky to have one in your openings hand (but thats so random)? Did you find them of any use late game?
As I said: as long as it is better than a mountain everytime you draw it, it's ok. Randomness doesnt matter.



To me that hardly seems worth it.
Correct.

[jrw1985]

But did you feel that those 2 Ports had any relevant impact? I mean of what use are they if you can't disrupt your opponent early game unless you're lucky to have one in your openings hand (but thats so random)? Did you find them of any use late game?

Port can be very relevant, but it's not a game-breaker like Lackey of Vial. Instead it's a mana-piece that has a very elegant synergy with Lackey and Vial. When Lackey and Vial are online you don't really need lands to get goblins in play, but you're still going to have lands on the battlefield. Port allows you to use those lands for a functional purpose (disrupting your opponent's manabase) rather than have them sit idly by. And unlike Wasteland, when Lackey/Vial get blowed-up Port allows you to switch back to hardcasting your gobbos.

Port can be very useful late-game. Plenty of games have been won by Porting an opponent deep into the game and attacking for 3 a turn. It's also not irrelevant when you're keeping them off that fifth Batterskull mana, keeping that 1 splashed color tapped down all game, tapping down that potential Man-Land, tapping down that utility land (Maze). And even when you're way behind and drawing land after land, Port still lets you interact and maybe keeps your opponent from getting far enough ahead to win before you chain Ringleaders together and catch up.

Of course the ideal play is to be on the play, drop a T1 Lackey, have your opponent do something irrelevant T1, then T2 Port and Timewalk your opponent in their upkeep. Lackey connecting puts you a turn ahead, and Port puts your opponent back a turn. That's called tempo. You have a line of play that speeds yourself up running simultaneously with a line of play that slows your opponent down.

I'm going to start playing with 22 lands and Ports again, for a while at least. I've been running no Ports and 20 lands with a lower curve and aggressive build, but I keep seeing lists with Ports doing well (or Thalias...). It looks like they work pretty well with MWM since both MWM and Port basically require you to run a larger manabase. And, if I recall, the last Goblin list to win a SCG 5K had 4 Wastes, 4 Port, 4 Cavern and a Taiga, and the proof is in the pudding as they say.

[LPEuler]

Port can be very relevant, but it's not a game-breaker like Lackey of Vial. Instead it's a mana-piece that has a very elegant synergy with Lackey and Vial. When Lackey and Vial are online you don't really need lands to get goblins in play, but you're still going to have lands on the battlefield. Port allows you to use those lands for a functional purpose (disrupting your opponent's manabase) rather than have them sit idly by. And unlike Wasteland, when Lackey/Vial get blowed-up Port allows you to switch back to hardcasting your gobbos.

Port can be very useful late-game. Plenty of games have been won by Porting an opponent deep into the game and attacking for 3 a turn. It's also not irrelevant when you're keeping them off that fifth Batterskull mana, keeping that 1 splashed color tapped down all game, tapping down that potential Man-Land, tapping down that utility land (Maze). And even when you're way behind and drawing land after land, Port still lets you interact and maybe keeps your opponent from getting far enough ahead to win before you chain Ringleaders together and catch up.

Of course the ideal play is to be on the play, drop a T1 Lackey, have your opponent do something irrelevant T1, then T2 Port and Timewalk your opponent in their upkeep. Lackey connecting puts you a turn ahead, and Port puts your opponent back a turn. That's called tempo. You have a line of play that speeds yourself up running simultaneously with a line of play that slows your opponent down.

I'm going to start playing with 22 lands and Ports again, for a while at least. I've been running no Ports and 20 lands with a lower curve and aggressive build, but I keep seeing lists with Ports doing well (or Thalias...). It looks like they work pretty well with MWM since both MWM and Port basically require you to run a larger manabase. And, if I recall, the last Goblin list to win a SCG 5K had 4 Wastes, 4 Port, 4 Cavern and a Taiga, and the proof is in the pudding as they say.

I would be very interested to see the deck you were playing and the one you plan to play. Could you post them here?

I agree with all you say about ports.

[Nelis]

Port can be very useful late-game. Plenty of games have been won by Porting an opponent deep into the game and attacking for 3 a turn. It's also not irrelevant when you're keeping them off that fifth Batterskull mana, keeping that 1 splashed color tapped down all game, tapping down that potential Man-Land, tapping down that utility land (Maze). And even when you're way behind and drawing land after land, Port still lets you interact and maybe keeps your opponent from getting far enough ahead to win before you chain Ringleaders together and catch up.



This answers my question. I understand how the rest works I was just wondering if they really have any function late game. I'm leaving in the 3 ports for now so I am able to use it both ways.

[jrw1985]

I would be very interested to see the deck you were playing and the one you plan to play. Could you post them here?

I agree with all you say about ports.

Deck I had been playing-

20 Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
12 Mountain

6 Other
4 Vial
2 Pyrokinesis

34 Goblins
4 Lackey
2 Mogg Fanatic
3 Warren Instigator
3 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Warchief
3 Chieftain
1 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger

Deck I will be playing-

22 Lands
1 Karakas
1 Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern
12 Mountain

4 Other
4 Vial

34 Gobbos
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Gempalm
1 Seige-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

If you compare the lists it's clear that the first one wants to play the more aggressive role. That's the play style I've always favored, trying to punch through with Lackeys and Winstigators to just dump more cards on the board than your opponent can handle. Use Tarfires, Pyros, Fanatics to clear the board in the early turns and Gempalm to take over the mid to late game. Overall lower manacurve and free spells MD.

The one I'm going to try out for a while now is a little slower, a little more laid back. Less removal but more control. MWMs to nullify groud attacks, Krenko package to create ridiculous CA. More lands for more hardcasting and a little more disruption. This is basically the list that got 18th at GP Ghent. It's clearly just a solid and basic build, but it did very well in a field of like 1400 players.

[from Cairo]

But did you feel that those 2 Ports had any relevant impact? I mean of what use are they if you can't disrupt your opponent early game unless you're lucky to have one in your openings hand (but thats so random)? Did you find them of any use late game?

The other thing to consider is that on paper 1-3 Rishadan Port looks a lot more random than in the context of playing the deck with 4 Wastelands. Rishadan Port serves as mana disruption slots 5-7; running 6-7 of an effect obviously increases the likelihood of seeing it and makes it a part of your strategy you can rely on seeing with more frequency.

I've run as many as 4 Ports in Goblins and until recently have clung to a singleton as 'Wasteland #5', but I think recent releases and the current metagame have devalued Rishadan Port.

Krenko really wants to be paired with Goblin Warchief and a bunch of red mana. Cavern of Souls has provided another tool to work around Daze, allowing Goblins to be less concerned with having an extra mana source. And concerning the decks we're facing Terminus has replaced Wrath of God, there's no Porting them to keep 'em off :w::w:. Opposing agro decks like Maverick are running 4 Noble, 4 GSZ -> Arbor and piles of 2 drops, there's not much value to be had out of early Porting. I suppose Rishadan Port is still very disruptive against RUG, but that match up seems to come down to Delver of Secrets. If they land and flip Delver the deck has to push Goblins onto the field quick and either try to answer the Insect Aberration or race, neither of which is aided by Port. Port can be good to keep them off Green mana, but if the Goblins has a spare two mana against RUG it seems overwhelming the board is a more favorable play.

I'm running

14 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshall
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Seige-Gang Commander

[(nameless one)]

If Krenko is so good, why only have one and not two within the 60. Yes you can Matron for him or Ringleader into him but won't he be a removal magnet?

[Nelis]

The other thing to consider is that on paper 1-3 Rishadan Port looks a lot more random than in the context of playing the deck with 4 Wastelands. Rishadan Port serves as mana disruption slots 5-7; running 6-7 of an effect obviously increases the likelihood of seeing it and makes it a part of your strategy you can rely on seeing with more frequency.


And that's the last piece of information I was missing. :laugh: At least now I have a good frame of reference when testing. My list right now is:

12 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg War Marshall
3 Goblin Piledriver
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Siege-Gang Commander

[LPEuler]

This is my list:

11 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshall
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer

- 11 Mountains are more than enough for the 7 RR1 haste lords. Really. I just got screwed twice in about 30 matches and it was because I was screwed on mana in general not because I had too much colorless mana.
- 2 Ports, they have played a very good role (Against Miracle, for instance).
- I run 7 haste-lords because they have amazing synergy with Kenkro (and the rest, of course). I see I am the one running most lords.
- 2 Krenkos. Also said by someone there "Why packing only one?" Well, they get all the hate (they have gotten StPed a lot!) so I prefer having two. Against Maverick and thanks to the haste lords I have been able to overwhelm the other guy (19 tokens 2/2 on T5).
- Tinkerer is nice, I like it more than Tuktuk because you can multiple use it with low costing artifacts (tested the deck against Top and had to even tutor it, you slow them way too much). It is also CC2 so you can play it and beat with it, block, create more Krenko's tokens... fills nicely the spot.
- Prospector hasn't seen much play but I want to test it more.
- Stingscourger: I don't see it much on the lists posted, only as a 1-of and I think it is amazing card. I wouldn't put less than 2.
- SGC is very nice to fill up fast the board. I like more Krenko, though, but I can see scenarios were SGC is very useful (T2 from Lackey or need to fire stuff). I lile the 2/1 split.

I tested it against Miracle and Maverick and did pretty well.

Hope this helps anyone.

[L10]

LPEuler, your deck looks good to me. Though, I would try to fit in another MWM at the already tight deck list. My latest list has 20 lands, 3 MWM, 2 SGC, and 1 Stingscourger. Having both SGC and Krenko out is nuts, and creates a dilemma when the opponent finally finds a removal, because both cards controls the board very well.


If Krenko is so good, why only have one and not two within the 60. Yes you can Matron for him or Ringleader into him but won't he be a removal magnet?
It depends on your build. If your deck do not run any additional haste lords (Chieftain) but has a suit of cards that can abuse tokens (SGC/Prospector/Sharpshooter), Krenko is a very useful 1-of as a tool. If your deck has 6-7 haste lords, Krenko may be a win condition, so having 2-3 Krenko is nice because you can draw him mid game, if not through Matron or Ringleader, and abuse this ability right away. Krenko may be a removal magnet, but so are Lackey, Warchief, Chieftain, Piledriver, SGC, Tinkerer, and Sharpshooter; most of which may eat removals before Krenko comes out. Luckily, recurring removals like Grim Lavamancer and Punishing Fire can't kill off Krenko by themselves, so I am not terribly worried.

[LPEuler]

LPEuler, your deck looks good to me. Though, I would try to fit in another MWM at the already tight deck list. My latest list has 20 lands, 3 MWM, 2 SGC, and 1 Stingscourger. Having both SGC and Krenko out is nuts, and creates a dilemma when the opponent finally finds a removal, because both cards controls the board very well.


It depends on your build. If your do not run any additional haste lords (Chieftain) but has a suit of cards that can abuse tokens (SGC/Prospector/Sharpshooter), Krenko is a very useful 1-of as a tool. If your deck has 6-7 haste lords, Krenko may be a win condition, so having 2-3 Krenko is nice because you can draw him mid game, if not through Matron or Ringleader, and abuse this ability right away. Krenko may be a removal magnet, but so are Lackey, Warchief, Chieftain, Piledriver, SGC, Tinkerer, and Sharpshooter; most of which may eat removals before Krenko comes out. Luckily, recurring removals like Grim Lavamancer and Punishing Fire can't kill off Krenko by themselves, so I am not terribly worried.

Thanks for the words, I used your deck as inspiration.
I will l try to put a MWM. The other thing I want to try is fanatics.

I agree completely with your second paragraph.

[Pinoy Goblin]

This answers my question. I understand how the rest works I was just wondering if they really have any function late game. I'm leaving in the 3 ports for now so I am able to use it both ways.

Yup, Ports can also be used late game to figure out your opponents next move. For example your opponent has 3 open lands, then before combat step you ported his 3 lands, then you declare you're attackers, if he floats his lands and doesn't use it before blockers step it will be gone because floating mana ends every phase thus this will give you an information on whats he's up to or his next move (for example using his open mana to cast bolts,swords or use snapcaster etc. . .) ....... this is very critical on your part because a slight information will give you an edge on what will be you're next move and this has won me games:smile:

By the way Ports are essential on our deck and for me 4 is a must because mana denial is one of our tribes main strategy, turn one vial then second turn port on your opponents upkeep - Priceless:laugh:

[unicoerner]

I wonder, why everyone is kicking out SGC for Krenkos. They play very well next to each other.
If you play a Toolbox you could even play a KIki aswell. I am quite often searching a KIK if i have no haste Lords to get Krenko dangerous fast enough. Kiki gives me soo much control on the board that its hard for the opponent to catch up.

I see lots of Chalices being played. VS which decks do you use them?

[LPEuler]

I wonder, why everyone is kicking out SGC for Krenkos. They play very well next to each other.
If you play a Toolbox you could even play a KIki aswell. I am quite often searching a KIK if i have no haste Lords to get Krenko dangerous fast enough. Kiki gives me soo much control on the board that its hard for the opponent to catch up.

I see lots of Chalices being played. VS which decks do you use them?

I think noone is kicking out SGC for Krenkos. All lists posted (afaik) have both of them, either 1-1, 1-2 or 2-1. Both play very well next to each other and one can be more useful than the other depending on the situation.

I haven't played Kiki to tell whether it is good or not although I don't like the RRR in its mana cost. Could you give reasons or situations where it could be better than Krenko or SGC with examples? If this situations are as common as the situations where Krenko/SGC are better then I agree it could have a spot in there.

[mrblueduck]

I haven't played Kiki to tell whether it is good or not although I don't like the RRR in its mana cost. Could you give reasons or situations where it could be better than Krenko or SGC with examples? If this situations are as common as the situations where Krenko/SGC are better then I agree it could have a spot in there.

I have been testing a 1-1-1 split with Krenko, SGC, and Kiki, and believe I might just move Krenko to the sb. I have only played around 20 matches with this set up, but Krenko seems to help win the games, where we already have good match ups. And in the games I have played, he has eaten removal a few times. Kiki almost never eats removal. They always go after his clone target, so you can just keep using him turn after after.

The reason I leave Kiki in is the absurdity he provides with Instigator.

Instigator first strike triggers into Matron, Matron into Kiki-Jiki, Kik-Jiki targeting matron, and casting now anything in the deck. For combo Piledriver, then copying Piledriver in the main phase, for lethal. Yea, that beats Krenko... and pretty much gg. That happens way more often then it should. Also works with double lackey triggers, but yea Instigator builds do much better with Kiki.

I can honestly see him being a replacement for Anarchy out of the sb since I think he helps the Maverick matchups the most. But then again, I think he is worse than Anarchy, so I dunno....