[Deck] Goblins

[jrw1985]

On a different subject, lets assume you're playing Rb goblins against Know and Tell, you lost G1 to SnT> Omni> Grizzle T4.
You open a hand of Badlands, Port, 2x Mountain, MwM, Warchief and Cabal Therapy. (I'd keep that)

- Do you Cabal T1? if yes, what do you name?
I'm leaning towards naming Brainstorm, because it's a great card and can fuck up your flashback next turn. I'm also inclined to play it T1 blind, since you want to spend all your mana for the next 2 turns. What would you call?

- You play cabal, miss seeing Burning Wish, Ponder, Intuition, 3 lands (mull to 6). He draws, Ponder and pass. You draw Ringleader. What do you do? MWM into Cabal? If so, what do you name?
Thanks.

The last time I played CT against a combo deck T1 I didn't name Brainstorm, and when I flashed CT abck T@ he brainstormed away the nameable cards. Sooo...

T1 CT name BS
T2 MWM flashback CT name Burning wish, just to cut him off of his T2 play. If he drew SnT off Ponder...
T3 Play Port, swing for 1. Port him in upkeep
T4 Play Port, swing for 2. Double Port him in upkeep.

If he didn't draw a SnT threat or a SnT off his Ponder...
T3 Play Port and Warchief, swing for 4, let him cast his Intuition.
T4 Play Port, double Port in upkeep, beat for 4 a turn for another turn or two, then swing for lethal.

[raindrainxi]

Went to a small tournament last Sunday, with this (somewhat) generic mono-red list. I was expecting Dredge, UW Miracles, Mavs, Belcher, Snt variants.

13 Mountains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshall
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 SGC

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle


Round 1 - Dredge
G1. I was on the play, Vial first. He plays Gemstone. I got in a couple of damages with MWM and took damage from an Ichorid. He fails to find dredgers for several turns until I built my horde for the win.
OUT: can't remember
IN: 2 Relics, 2 Crypts

G2: I had an opening hand with a Relic, a Lackey, a couple of Ringleaders and lands. He therapies my Ringleaders, and I play Lackey. He therapies my Relic, and I topdeck a Crypt. He Claims it, I took out his graveyard. He dredges but can't find anything relevant but Narcomoebas while goblins whittle away at his life.

1-0


Round 2 - Merfolk

G1: Early lords eat my face in 4 turns.
OUT: Sharpshooter, Tuktuk Scrapper, 1 Krenko, 1 Stingscourger, another goblin
IN: 3 Pyrokinesis, 1 REB, 1 Pyroblast

G2: CLG. Mutavault, Vial. I waste his Mutavault and he fails to find anything relevant, and I end it scot-free.

G3: He plays a vial, and forces mine. He plays a Cursecatcher and dazes my Lackey. I can't remember how but I put in enough pressure and brought him down to 5. I was down to a Warchief. I played Krenko, and the funny thing was I made tokens. He lived for another turn due to my excellent math. The lesson I learned was, Krenko is 3/3, and can attack too.

2-0


Round 3 - Esperblade

G1: This was a long and grueling battle, he keeps fending off goblins with a Batterskull. I manage to resolve a Prospector for a turn, but gets STPed his turn. I Gempalm the germ, he plays a Jitte off a second SFM. I was keeping a Scrapper for this and paid his weight in gold, playing him through vial, blocking the equipped SFM at same time. He was slowly gaining back his life until I was building an army, until I Matron an Incinerator for the SCM with the Batterskull. He concedes.
The round took to time while we were sideboarding and he opted not to play game 2.

3-0


At this point there was a couple of undefeated players that I could've have matched with: among them UW Miracle and Hive Mind. I was hoping to dodge SnT. With my awfully good luck, I was matched with...

Round 4 - Hive Mind

G1: Show and Tell to Emrakul. Game Over.

I was thinking that the pacts could be countered with Chalice @ 0, so I sided those. I also had a mistake of not adding another Stinger in my SB so I had no choice for a sideboard except for the Chalice, which was a big mistake.

G2: I mulled to a hand with a Stinger and a Chalice, played it at 0, SnTs Hive Mind, plays the red Pact, and the copied spell laughs at the chalice while I lose without warming up my seat.

3-1


Round 5 - RUG Delver

The last round of swiss I was a bit confident with a matchup against a fair deck, so I went ahead and won G1 on the wings of Caverns. I sided out some goblins for 2 Pyrokinesis, 2 Relics and a Chalice.
G2 An early flipping delver cruises on top of my goblins, with 3/3 Mongeese. And then joined by a fat Goyf. Lost.
I was contemplating on replacing the pyrokinesis with the chalice. Decided against it. So I paid for it.
G3 Mongeese and flipping delvers again, and Stifle is the MVP. Killed the delver with Pyrokinesis, but apart from that, no sideboard appeared. Lost again.

Sadly, I dropped to 6th place, and the Top4 players decided not to play and share the loots.


What I learned.

-Skirk Prospector still shines.
-Tuktuk is effective, but a lot of investment is needed.
-KRENKO CAN ATTACK.
-SnT variants are unwinnable if you do just rely on Stingscourger. I am really hating this matchup for those who do not want to splash. I think I will try out Angel of Despair next time. Or X Thorns (for Hive Mind). Thinking of leaving a couple of Pyrokinesis out.

Thanks for reading. :)

[slave]

Does anyone play a Vexing Shusher singleton for thier Matron's to fetch?

Considering Vials get around counter, could shusher be a way to get the O-ring (or other non-creature spells) into play and avoid counter?
I'm just curious whether it might be playable.

[ScatmanX]

Thanks for the Report!

G2: I had an opening hand with a Relic, a Lackey, a couple of Ringleaders and lands. He therapies my Ringleaders, and I play Lackey. He therapies my Relic, and I topdeck a Crypt. He Claims it, I took out his graveyard. He dredges but can't find anything relevant but Narcomoebas while goblins whittle away at his life.
Would like everyone's opinion on this. Leading with Lackey instead of Relic, once the opponent knows your hand, is the right call? Don't know what I'd do... (But don't know why the opponent would Therapy Ringleader...)



Round 2 - Merfolk

OUT: Sharpshooter, Tuktuk Scrapper, 1 Krenko, 1 Stingscourger, another goblin
IN: 3 Pyrokinesis, 1 REB, 1 Pyroblast
You don't like Shooter here? For me it makes combat math to be always on our favor, specially combined with Kinesis.
Also, you're not afraid of Jitte from them? At least around here they usually pack 2-3 of them, so I tend to leave Tuktuk in...



Round 5 - RUG Delver

I was contemplating on replacing the pyrokinesis with the chalice. Decided against it. So I paid for it.
How many of us are dying against Canadian to fast Delvers, where they Stifle your Gempalm and you just can't outrace it? I ask because maybe bringing in the ReB is right again, to kill it dead, or stop Stifle, that makes this MU quite worse.
Maybe in your build try bringing in ReB, Pyroblast, 2 Relic, 2 Kinesis, for Scrapper, Shooter, 2x Chieftain, 2x Piledriver?

[GoboLord]

-SnT variants are unwinnable if you do just rely on Stingscourger. I am really hating this matchup for those who do not want to splash. I think I will try out Angel of Despair next time. Or X Thorns (for Hive Mind). Thinking of leaving a couple of Pyrokinesis out.


You might be right about this MU being unwinnable. However, I find those decks highly inconsitent and my guess would be that you nee to nuke ther Brainstorms with REBs. If that's not possible, aim for their S&T.
I finde that Angel of Despair is a horrible SB tech against them. If you want to have this kind of S&T target for yourself you should either pick Confusion in the Ranks (which is slightly more likely to be castable :-D) or (what I find even better) Stingscourger. This boy does the same job as Angel or Despair with the benefit that (1) he's tutorable/net-able, (2) can be pitched via Vial (which is mouch more unlikely with Angel of Awfulness) and can be cast more eaily in other MUs, whch might give you the time to do so (like MUD or Reanimator).
I might be missing something, since Angelika has been discussed several times in this context - if so, please tell me what her benefits are in comparison to Stinger.

[Koby]

I keep hearing people discuss that Goblins is the best deck in the metagame right now, listing various reasons.

What are Goblin's vulnerabilities? It's able to go at least 50% against fair strategies, so does that mean it has trouble against unfair/Combo matchups only? Just trying to understand the Goblin perspective :)

[jrw1985]

I keep hearing people discuss that Goblins is the best deck in the metagame right now, listing various reasons.

What are Goblin's vulnerabilities? It's able to go at least 50% against fair strategies, so does that mean it has trouble against unfair/Combo matchups only? Just trying to understand the Goblin perspective :)

Vulnerabilities = combo, anything fast Storm or SnT. OmniTell is rough just because we can't interact with it. Also, E Plague always sucks, as does Elsh Norn, Propaganda effects (dueling grounds). Sweepers aren't nearly as difficult as permanent based hate. Goblins can rebound well, but if they can't build a board presence they're screwed. Mostly goblins just loses to faster decks it can't interact with. Belcher SnT TES ANT

[Amon Amarth]

You might be right about this MU being unwinnable. However, I find those decks highly inconsitent and my guess would be that you nee to nuke ther Brainstorms with REBs. If that's not possible, aim for their S&T.
I finde that Angel of Despair is a horrible SB tech against them. If you want to have this kind of S&T target for yourself you should either pick Confusion in the Ranks (which is slightly more likely to be castable :-D) or (what I find even better) Stingscourger. This boy does the same job as Angel or Despair with the benefit that (1) he's tutorable/net-able, (2) can be pitched via Vial (which is mouch more unlikely with Angel of Awfulness) and can be cast more eaily in other MUs, whch might give you the time to do so (like MUD or Reanimator).
I might be missing something, since Angelika has been discussed several times in this context - if so, please tell me what her benefits are in comparison to Stinger.

SNT is unfavorable but nowhere near unwinnable. Confusion in the Ranks is just as "bad" as Angel of Despair: both are super narrow SB cards. You're not supposed to cast them. It's a giant waste of mana. And no one is taking out SS to board these cards in, I don't know where you're getting that idea from.

[L10]

"I might be missing something, since Angelika has been discussed several times in this context - if so, please tell me what her benefits are in comparison to Stinger."
Let's say Player A uses SnT and flips an Omniscience, and Player B flips a Stingscourger. Whelp, Player B wasted a Stingscourger. Now let's say Player B have a Vial @ 2, and you flipped a Matron to fetch for Stingscourger. In this scenario, Player B did not waste a Stingscourger, and can use it whenever. Now Player A casts Emrakul off of Omniscience and gains Time Walk. Even if Player B uses Vial to flash in Stingscourger, Player A can recast Emrakul and get Time Walk again, which is why Karakas is also not good vs. Omniscience. All this does is to delay our death. The problem is Omniscience, and Angel of Despair destroys it. Though, I guess CitR is a more hilarious solution.

For the Omniscience MU, I am running with 1 Stingscourger, 2 Krosan Grip, 3 REB, and 3 Angel of Despair. I am siding in eight cards for this MU.

[GoboLord]

SNT is unfavorable but nowhere near unwinnable. Confusion in the Ranks is just as "bad" as Angel of Despair: both are super narrow SB cards. You're not supposed to cast them. It's a giant waste of mana. And no one is taking out SS to board these cards in, I don't know where you're getting that idea from.

I didn't mean that CitR should actually be cast (which should become clear when you read the ":-D" as: "...like that would ever happen...."). I said that it is just as narrow Angel of Despair with the "benefit" that you CAN cast it (which might be relevant in 1/100 games), whereas Angel of Despair is truly UNCASTABLE (in 1000/1000 games).

...you should either pick Confusion in the Ranks (which is slightly more likely to be castable :-D)
Neither did I say that anyone is taking out Stingscourger for narrow-sideboard-cards-of-your-choice. I literally said that if you want this kind of SB tech (one that profits from their S&T; one that can be put into play when they cast S&T) you are better of with Stingscourger than with those other cards, because Stinger actually has more than this (S&T) way to hit the floor (Vial, cast it) AND he is more likely to find the way to your hand when you need it (Matron, Ringleader). So my guess would be that you better put 3-4 Stinger in your SB than waste those slots for Angel/CitR.

[jrw1985]

Another benefit of Stingscourger in the OmniTell MU is his ETB trigger, which gives you a chance to REB or KGrip your opponent's Omniscience before they have a chance to cast any win conditions with it (though I'm assuming if you have REB you already would have cast it on SnT, but whatevs).

[ScatmanX]

Another benefit of Stingscourger in the OmniTell MU is his ETB trigger, which gives you a chance to REB or KGrip your opponent's Omniscience before they have a chance to cast any win conditions with it (though I'm assuming if you have REB you already would have cast it on SnT, but whatevs).
Wow, this is awesome. So if you have Stingscourger + K.Grip on your hand, you have answers for Omnicience, Emrakul and Grizzlebrand. Nice.
Works with Matron/Ring/mwm/sgc for Omniscence too.

[jrw1985]

Wow, this is awesome. So if you have Stingscourger + K.Grip on your hand, you have answers for Omnicience, Emrakul and Grizzlebrand. Nice.
Works with Matron/Ring/mwm/sgc for Omniscence too.

That hand + 2G open means you can't lose to SnT. Yup.

[Sasan]

how likely is it to have that kind of hand when you need it? not likely. really not.

Just board in Angel and mulligan to whatever it takes (even to 3) to get him. then do nothing and wait till Show and Tel is cast. Use the Angel and destroy Grisel/Emrakul/Omni and attack 4 turns with the angel and win easily ;-) how often will that happen? if you are not afraid of hard mulligans: very likely :-)

[L10]

I still like the idea of boarding in 1 Stingscourger, 2 Krosan Grip, 3 REB, and 3 Angel of Despair. Stingscourger takes care of Emrakul and Grizzlebrand off of SnT. REB handles SnT if not countered. Krosan Grip takes care of Omniscience if you flip something with an ETB ability. And Angel of Despair destroys them all. Just siding in three Angel of Despairs is not enough for me. Nor is just siding in Krosan Grips. Having eight SB cards and a Stingscourger MD is about right, and only Angel of Despair slot is wasted specifically for this MU. I gave up my anti-combo cards for Angel of Despair, which seems fair because I don't expect too many combo players in this current meta. I have not been fighting them anyways.

[raindrainxi]

Would like everyone's opinion on this. Leading with Lackey instead of Relic, once the opponent knows your hand, is the right call? Don't know what I'd do... (But don't know why the opponent would Therapy Ringleader...)

I couldn't really remember exactly if it was Ringleader or Warchief, what I am sure is though is that it wasn't Lackey. I think the correct strategy would have been to play the Relic. But at that moment I was kinda sure that he had artifact hate, and nothing relevant on the yard, so I went for Lackey.



You don't like Shooter here? For me it makes combat math to be always on our favor, specially combined with Kinesis.
Also, you're not afraid of Jitte from them? At least around here they usually pack 2-3 of them, so I tend to leave Tuktuk in...


I was thinking that while I was shuffling the shooter out, but failed to realize how awesome he was until the matches later. I thought that Prospector would be better here. (But I sided out Shooter which means I wasn't thinking straight here. I had sideboard notes but failed to read them)




How many of us are dying against Canadian to fast Delvers, where they Stifle your Gempalm and you just can't outrace it? I ask because maybe bringing in the ReB is right again, to kill it dead, or stop Stifle, that makes this MU quite worse.
Maybe in your build try bringing in ReB, Pyroblast, 2 Relic, 2 Kinesis, for Scrapper, Shooter, 2x Chieftain, 2x Piledriver?

I really am unimpressed with Pyrokinesis here, it can only kill delvers and thin goyfs. And most of the time if he has multiple flipped delvers you're dead already. Chalice at 1 stops at least 12 cards, and 2/3 of his creatures. But I agree, REBs are very right again, especially since its useful against a lot of other DTBs.

I wasn't really sold with the Bald Maria Ozawa angel but wanted to give her a try, but since she's useless against Hive Mind (which is piloted here by someone who is always in the T8 he might as well be a sub-boss) and with your apprehension I think I changed my mind. I'll keep in mind that ETB trigger on Stinger and REB response. Thanks for that. :)

[Amon Amarth]

I didn't mean that CitR should actually be cast (which should become clear when you read the ":-D" as: "...like that would ever happen...."). I said that it is just as narrow Angel of Despair with the "benefit" that you CAN cast it (which might be relevant in 1/100 games), whereas Angel of Despair is truly UNCASTABLE (in 1000/1000 games).

Neither did I say that anyone is taking out Stingscourger for narrow-sideboard-cards-of-your-choice. I literally said that if you want this kind of SB tech (one that profits from their S&T; one that can be put into play when they cast S&T) you are better of with Stingscourger than with those other cards, because Stinger actually has more than this (S&T) way to hit the floor (Vial, cast it) AND he is more likely to find the way to your hand when you need it (Matron, Ringleader). So my guess would be that you better put 3-4 Stinger in your SB than waste those slots for Angel/CitR.

Except SS taking up 3+ slots is much worse than Angel of Despair which is more focused but also much more powerful in that matchup. No one is going to side in a bunch board in a bunch of SS anywhere else.

[Davran]

Would like everyone's opinion on this. Leading with Lackey instead of Relic, once the opponent knows your hand, is the right call? Don't know what I'd do... (But don't know why the opponent would Therapy Ringleader...)

I lead with Relic every time game 2/3 vs. dredge/reanimator. There's no real reason to hold it, and most dredge players will discard their dredger at EOT giving you an opportunity to remove it on their upkeep. If he kept a 2 dredger hand it's not as much of a stall, but you can still get them.

Plus, the deck plays Therapy. You can bet he will use it to take your grave hate whenever he can. They know you sided it in, so why sandbag it?

[liamb]

Still - isn't it better to splash white for Oblivion Ring? It is not so narrow card as Angel of Despair. It is also better then Krosan Grip because in addition you don’t need to have Stingscourger (or any other creature with etb trigger if opponent will put Omnisciecne) to fight S&T decks (with exception of Hive Mind). Also because goblins are on the radar right now I think he have to prepare for Engineered Plague, Humility and other enchantments. The two obvious downsides of O-ring are that it can be counter and destroyed.

[jrw1985]

how likely is it to have that kind of hand when you need it? not likely. really not.

Just board in Angel and mulligan to whatever it takes (even to 3) to get him. then do nothing and wait till Show and Tel is cast. Use the Angel and destroy Grisel/Emrakul/Omni and attack 4 turns with the angel and win easily ;-) how often will that happen? if you are not afraid of hard mulligans: very likely :-)

It's not likely to have Stinscourger and KGrip, but it is pretty likely that you can have KGrip and another goblin with an ETB trigger (MWM, Matron, Ringleader, SGC). Those ETB triggers really give goblins a decent chance of Gripping the Omni before it can hardcast Emrakul. So if you play right, KGrip can be very effective in the SnT mu without being super narrow in the sb.

Angel of Despair is probably the best card against SnT, but it cannot be played against anything else. KGrip is great against Miracles, batter skull, and all that other shit. So if you're planning for a metagame where you can't just cram narrow answers to semi-popular decks you're going to need a plan for the playable, adaptable cards in your sb.

[Sasan]

It's not likely to have Stinscourger and KGrip, but it is pretty likely that you can have KGrip and another goblin with an ETB trigger (MWM, Matron, Ringleader, SGC). Those ETB triggers really give goblins a decent chance of Gripping the Omni before it can hardcast Emrakul. So if you play right, KGrip can be very effective in the SnT mu without being super narrow in the sb.

Angel of Despair is probably the best card against SnT, but it cannot be played against anything else. KGrip is great against Miracles, batter skull, and all that other shit. So if you're planning for a metagame where you can't just cram narrow answers to semi-popular decks you're going to need a plan for the playable, adaptable cards in your sb.

How does the ETB trigger work? The Player who plays Omniscience has priority so he can cast emrakul/griselbrand in response to Grip? Or do I Miss something?

[Holly]

The SnT player has priority correct, but he can't cast creatures/sorcerys because the stack isn't empty. Only after the ETB Trigger resolved but before this happens, you (the goblin player) casts the grip.

[Sasan]

ok so with a Grip in Hand you can win against omniscience. Thalia
Holly :-)

but if the SNT Player casts a creature of SNT instead of omni then only Angel or Sting will help. so Angel remains the best sideboard card against them as it is universal concerning all their win conditions :-)

[raindrainxi]

My dilemma here is that Angel of Despair is so narrow and still does not answer all their win cons.

SnT -> Emmy: check.
SnT -> Omniscience: check, but only if his win cons are creatures and/or sorceries.
SnT -> Hive Mind: you destroy Hive Mind, he can still respond with Pacts.

In this aspect K.Grip is better, along with Stingscourger for the first instance. Of course this is entirely dependent on your meta since the Hive Mind and OmniTell with Pacts variants are not as popular AFAIK. Also, K.Grip is far from being a narrow card.

[slave]

I'm a big fan of the ole Grip.
But without any form of manaramp/acceleration I'm not sure.....

But I gotta ask;
You peeps who are splashing green for it, is there any other things you've considered splashing in that colour?
Reverent Silence or Nature's Claim are other options i guess, they're counterable for sure, but they do have that element of surprise.
I've not tried using them in Goblins, but in other decks I have they've been a great way to catch a player tapping out, or using up one of their Force's at least.

Pyroblast works on 2 of your three in that list, with maindeck Stingscourger for Emmy/Grisel.
The thing that has me wondering about Grip is that SnT decks can get their biz on the board on turn 2 potentially.
If we're on the draw - you're hoping......
Considering how many targets we have for opponents' waste's, and how unlikely we are to have 3 mana when they're going off before our turn 3, I'd favour Pyroblast/REB over Grip for combo matchups - especially Omni.

My friend asked me to build the Goblin deck for him - so here I am trying to make sense of it!! :laugh:

[raindrainxi]

Pyroblast works on 2 of your three in that list, with maindeck Stingscourger for Emmy/Grisel.
The thing that has me wondering about Grip is that SnT decks can get their biz on the board on turn 2 potentially.
If we're on the draw - you're hoping......
Considering how many targets we have for opponents' waste's, and how unlikely we are to have 3 mana when they're going off before our turn 3, I'd favour Pyroblast/REB over Grip for combo matchups - especially Omni.


You are correct here. I am not a fan of splashing for hate, so REB/Pyroblast is my first go-to options. It does answer the first 2 on the list, but Hive Mind is an obstacle for me here personally.

KGrip does have slowness as its vulnerability, so if your problem is SnT, OmniTell variants only, I think mulling to REB/Pyroblast with/or Stingscourger MAY BE enough.

[Poron]

why don't you simply concentrate on SnT? 4REB + 4Pyroblast (or something that close) should grant you the win... (also the matron/stingscourger plan is fine).

I just don't like the Angel splash

[ScatmanX]

why don't you simply concentrate on SnT? 4REB + 4Pyroblast (or something that close) should grant you the win... (also the matron/stingscourger plan is fine).

I just don't like the Angel splash
There are maybe no other deck (other than Stasis, MUC or Spiral Tide, ok...) That you'd want to put 8 Rebs in. Also, it's kind of a flawed plan, since they can Burning Wish (red) for Overmaster (red) and get an Emrakul/Grizzle into pay (or even cast Emrakul from Omniscience if you don't have an ETB guy on your hand). And, if you get paired against Sneak Attack, Reb kind of sucks.

I have another (2) hipotetical situation (thanks Jon for answering the last one):
You're on the draw G1 against UW/Esperblade. He goes T1 Plains into T2 Island, Stoneforge/Batterskull. Your T1 you play Skirk Prospector, and T2, having 2 Mountains into play, and a hand 2 lands, Warchief, Piledriver, MWM, Matron (no Gempalm).
You'd you attack? I mean, he doeen't know you don't have Gempalm. Would he risk trading Stone on this moment of the game for 1 dmg? Does anyone think if it is worth attacking? Attacking may also gives information on how he plays the game too, and that may be worth later.

The 2nd scenario is just like the 1st, but you play a badlands T2, and have in hand Mountain, Chrome Mox, Earwig Squad, Piledriver, MWM, Ringleader. In this case, dealing 1 point of damage on him would be nice since you could then play Mox and Squad on that turn, which is quite awesome. Is it worth taking the risk now?
Thanks.

[TheSleeper]

I have another (2) hipotetical situation (thanks Jon for answering the last one):
You're on the draw G1 against UW/Esperblade. He goes T1 Plains into T2 Island, Stoneforge/Batterskull. Your T1 you play Skirk Prospector, and T2, having 2 Mountains into play, and a hand 2 lands, Warchief, Piledriver, MWM, Matron (no Gempalm).
You'd you attack? I mean, he doeen't know you don't have Gempalm. Would he risk trading Stone on this moment of the game for 1 dmg? Does anyone think if it is worth attacking? Attacking may also gives information on how he plays the game too, and that may be worth later.

The 2nd scenario is just like the 1st, but you play a badlands T2, and have in hand Mountain, Chrome Mox, Earwig Squad, Piledriver, MWM, Ringleader. In this case, dealing 1 point of damage on him would be nice since you could then play Mox and Squad on that turn, which is quite awesome. Is it worth taking the risk now?
Thanks.

I would look at the risk/reward for these situations. In scenario 1, the risk is that he blocks and you lose your Prospector. The reward is one damage getting through. It's a pretty low risk/low reward situation IMO. Personally I wouldn't go for it because Prospector can be valuable later and I'm not sure 1 damage would make the difference (especially with an incoming Batterskull).

In the second scenario, the risk is the same but the reward is much greater. Being able to prowl Earwig would be sweet. So in that case I'd probably go for it. Just my 2c.

[slave]

Just curious here;

How does Goblins with discard play out?
Instead of looking for ways to counter or destroy SnT/Sneak/Hive - would trying some Thoughtsieze & Duress be worth a try?
If they just force it, at least we've dealt with that.....

[lordofthepit]

I have another (2) hipotetical situation (thanks Jon for answering the last one):
You're on the draw G1 against UW/Esperblade. He goes T1 Plains into T2 Island, Stoneforge/Batterskull. Your T1 you play Skirk Prospector, and T2, having 2 Mountains into play, and a hand 2 lands, Warchief, Piledriver, MWM, Matron (no Gempalm).
You'd you attack? I mean, he doeen't know you don't have Gempalm. Would he risk trading Stone on this moment of the game for 1 dmg? Does anyone think if it is worth attacking? Attacking may also gives information on how he plays the game too, and that may be worth later.

The 2nd scenario is just like the 1st, but you play a badlands T2, and have in hand Mountain, Chrome Mox, Earwig Squad, Piledriver, MWM, Ringleader. In this case, dealing 1 point of damage on him would be nice since you could then play Mox and Squad on that turn, which is quite awesome. Is it worth taking the risk now?
Thanks.

Scenario #1: Pretty terrible attack. Skirk Prospector is one of your better cards against Stoneblade, especially with Mogg War Marshal in hand. Trading that for 1 damage seems like the worst thing ever, especially since your opponent is likely to land Batterskull and force you to play the long game.

Scenario #2: I probably don't attack, but I'm more likely to attack if my opponent is a "good" player who might overthink things. Also if my opponent has cards like Umezawa's Jitte or Humility in his deck that I really want to remove. Otherwise, dropping a 5/3 is nice, but I don't think it's enough to win the game; your best bet is still grinding things out. I probably go Mogg War Marshal, with 1 mana open; sacrifice the MWM for a token and a mana, then play Piledriver to hopefully bait out a FoW to enable a Ringleader on turn 3.

[Davran]

You're on the draw G1 against UW/Esperblade. He goes T1 Plains into T2 Island, Stoneforge/Batterskull. Your T1 you play Skirk Prospector, and T2, having 2 Mountains into play, and a hand 2 lands, Warchief, Piledriver, MWM, Matron (no Gempalm).
You'd you attack? I mean, he doeen't know you don't have Gempalm. Would he risk trading Stone on this moment of the game for 1 dmg? Does anyone think if it is worth attacking? Attacking may also gives information on how he plays the game too, and that may be worth later.

I don't think I would attack into his Mystic here without a trick of some sort (Gempalm etc.). Prospector is too good vs. the Batterskull/Jitte out of his deck to risk it. However, I also don't think that my opponent would risk his Mystic to prevent one damage...so it's really a toss up.


The 2nd scenario is just like the 1st, but you play a badlands T2, and have in hand Mountain, Chrome Mox, Earwig Squad, Piledriver, MWM, Ringleader. In this case, dealing 1 point of damage on him would be nice since you could then play Mox and Squad on that turn, which is quite awesome. Is it worth taking the risk now?
Thanks.

Here I think the upside is better than the downside, however the Badlands might give the Squad away and make him more likely to block. The nice thing is that he probably isn't expecting Chrome Mox, so you might get to sneak it right in.

[jrw1985]

I have another (2) hipotetical situation (thanks Jon for answering the last one):
You're on the draw G1 against UW/Esperblade. He goes T1 Plains into T2 Island, Stoneforge/Batterskull. Your T1 you play Skirk Prospector, and T2, having 2 Mountains into play, and a hand 2 lands, Warchief, Piledriver, MWM, Matron (no Gempalm).
You'd you attack? I mean, he doeen't know you don't have Gempalm. Would he risk trading Stone on this moment of the game for 1 dmg? Does anyone think if it is worth attacking? Attacking may also gives information on how he plays the game too, and that may be worth later.

The 2nd scenario is just like the 1st, but you play a badlands T2, and have in hand Mountain, Chrome Mox, Earwig Squad, Piledriver, MWM, Ringleader. In this case, dealing 1 point of damage on him would be nice since you could then play Mox and Squad on that turn, which is quite awesome. Is it worth taking the risk now?
Thanks.

Scenario #1
Your opponent at this point doesn't know if you have a Gempalm and are baiting a block to burn out the SFM.
What your opponent does know is your Skirk is a card that can blank his BS. Whether or not you have Gempalm should become a secondary consideration for your opponent at this point. They know you're giving them an opportunity to kill Skirk, and Skirk is a card they will have to eventually answer anyway if they want to get BS online.
Therefor, I think it is correct for your opponent to block Skirk, which makes it wrong for you to throw him at your opponent. Better to sit back with the Skirk Prospector and cast a Mogg War-Marshal.

Scenario #2
If you manage to prowl in Earwig Squad you will still have to deal with their BS in hand. Which you can't do if they've blocked your chump-attacking Skirk. Also, if they Daze Earwig you've just 2:1'd yourself and cleared your board. Strong play.

[Dzra]

Your opponent at this point doesn't know if you have a Gempalm and are baiting a block to burn out the SFM.
What your opponent does know is your Skirk is a card that can blank his BS. Whether or not you have Gempalm should become a secondary consideration for your opponent at this point. They know you're giving them an opportunity to kill Skirk, and Skirk is a card they will have to eventually answer anyway if they want to get BS online.

This is 100% correct. They will have to kill the Skirk Prospector in order to make their equipment relevant (which is how they don't die in this MU). If they have no spot removal, you just gave them the out they needed by offering up one of your better answers to equipment.

It's the same whether or not you have Earwig Squad or 20 Gempalms in hand. If they have no removal, they need to make the block.

[raindrainxi]

As a rule of thumb, I never attack with Skirk Prospector against Esperblade, Stoneblade, or any other deck with equipment for that matter, except for the alpha strike (and even then only when extremely necessary.)

Let them handle the problem of removing him, don't give them chances.

[FoxBlade]

You're on the draw G1 against UW/Esperblade. He goes T1 Plains into T2 Island, Stoneforge/Batterskull. Your T1 you play Skirk Prospector, and T2, having 2 Mountains into play, and a hand 2 lands, Warchief, Piledriver, MWM, Matron (no Gempalm).
You'd you attack? I mean, he doeen't know you don't have Gempalm. Would he risk trading Stone on this moment of the game for 1 dmg? Does anyone think if it is worth attacking? Attacking may also gives information on how he plays the game too, and that may be worth later.

I would not attack.

1) If he blocks, I'm down a body, he now knows I don't have gempalm, and I lose an ability I might be able to use to later (either for a quick mana boost to drop down my other goblins and hit with piledriver if he makes a mistake).

2) It hardly seems worthwhile considering the risk-reward for -1 damage.



The 2nd scenario is just like the 1st, but you play a badlands T2, and have in hand Mountain, Chrome Mox, Earwig Squad, Piledriver, MWM, Ringleader. In this case, dealing 1 point of damage on him would be nice since you could then play Mox and Squad on that turn, which is quite awesome. Is it worth taking the risk now?
Thanks.

Now the risk-reward is much better, essentially it makes attacking much more attractive because I could cut his win cons. However, I still would not attack.

If I use chrome mox to play earwig I'm down 3 cards from my hand and that leaves me with either piledriver or MWM and a mountain. Which means next turn I may not have any cards in my hand and/or nothing to cope with what he might have in his hand. Instead I have to hope I get some good draws and/or the rest of his hand won't stop me and/or he doesn't get any good draws.

Attacking with earwig can tilt the game in my favor, but it won't necessarily win me the game out right and it could definitely blow up in your face.

This is an "all in" play, and I'm a bit more conservative in these situations. If my "all in" won't net me the game outright, it's not worth the risk.

[Holly]

Well.. played in a 50 people tournament.. 6 rounds..dropped after round 4.. My friends wanted to go and actually I had no fun either =(.
Played 10 games (2-0, 2-1, 1-2, 0-2) and not a single one was fun to play..
M1 0-2 vs Belcher, the match had 3 turns..
M2 2-0 vs Dredge, he did nothing (unlucky dredges g1, really weak hand g2)
M3 2-1 vs Spiral Tide, G1 I had the t4 kill..but he started and went of t4.. G2 he did nothing, G3 he mulls to 5 doing nothing.
M4 1-2 vs Rest in Piece-Combo.. He allways has the t2/3 Energy Field while I can't draw a REB/Pyroblast nor anything useful.. He lost the first game because he drawed to many cards with enchantress and had to discard, destroying the field.
10 boring games =(.

List was okay I guess.. similiar to the last one, -2 Fanatic +2 Pyrokinesis (expected a lot of Goblins, was right btw.) -1 Stingscourger +1 Krenko.

[ScatmanX]

Thanks for everybody that answered! Really appreciated =]


Well.. played in a 50 people tournament.. 6 rounds..dropped after round 4.. My friends wanted to go and actually I had no fun either =(.
Played 10 games (2-0, 2-1, 1-2, 0-2) and not a single one was fun to play..
M1 0-2 vs Belcher, the match had 3 turns..
M2 2-0 vs Dredge, he did nothing (unlucky dredges g1, really weak hand g2)
M3 2-1 vs Spiral Tide, G1 I had the t4 kill..but he started and went of t4.. G2 he did nothing, G3 he mulls to 5 doing nothing.
M4 1-2 vs Rest in Piece-Combo.. He allways has the t2/3 Energy Field while I can't draw a REB/Pyroblast nor anything useful.. He lost the first game because he drawed to many cards with enchantress and had to discard, destroying the field.
10 boring games =(.

List was okay I guess.. similiar to the last one, -2 Fanatic +2 Pyrokinesis (expected a lot of Goblins, was right btw.) -1 Stingscourger +1 Krenko.
Those was some fucked up matchups you played against. Better luck on the pairings next time...

[jrw1985]

Jim Davis playing Goblins right now in the Top 4 at SCG Providence. Best of luck to him. He's supposed to be playing 12 Post in the Semis. Not a horrible MU.

[B-rad]

Another good showing with a green splash and no Krenko.....don't wanna say I told you so :)

[angel882]

Another good showing with a green splash and no Krenko.....don't wanna say I told you so :)

Hi, I'm playing quite traditional list with G splash and 1 Krenko. I was concidering adding second Krenko because it has been amazing, but now I'm thinking is it really win more because Jim and Max have done great without it. Is Krenko worth playing?

[Final Fortune]

Hi, I'm playing quite traditional list with G splash and 1 Krenko. I was concidering adding second Krenko because it has been amazing, but now I'm thinking is it really win more because Jim and Max have done great without it. Is Krenko worth playing?

I don't find Krenko or SGC to be necessary to the success of Goblins right now, I usually end up wanting a full set of Mogg Fanatics, Mogg War Marshalls and Gempalm Incinerators, and any additional slots are taken by the 5th+ Haste lord.

[GoboLord]

...don't wanna say I told you so :)

...because that would just show that your logic is flawed.

Given the fact that goblin-decklists with AND without Krenko, as well as decklists with AND without G-splash, are performing well for quite some time now, the only correct conclusion that we can draw is, that it simply doesn't matter too much what your decklists looks in detail as long as your are playing...
(1) 21-24 lands
(2) 4 Wastelands
(3) the 20-24 corecards

Another conclusion that we could draw is that Jim Davis seems to be playing the same decklist like forever and is successful with it.

Stating that not including Krenko or splashing G is not going to get us anywhere if you don't compare the success of such decklists to the success of decklists that are designed differently.

[ScatmanX]

...because that would just show that your logic is flawed.
I was going to answer that too, but got lazy and tohught someone would do it for me. Thanks =]

[jrw1985]

Another good showing with a green splash and no Krenko.....don't wanna say I told you so :)

I just checked the SCG deck database going back to 7/15/12 (M13 was released 7/13).

Of the 8 Goblins decks to Top-8 since then, 6 have had a Krenko in the MD. The other 2 were Jim Davis this weekend and another Max Tietze (who took 1st place an SCG Open) running essentially the same list.

Tobias Dreger also took 18th at the last GP with Krenko. Anthony Easton took 5th and Cedric Phillips took 11th at the SCG Invitational, both with Krenko.

I am really quite surprised that Jim Davis doesn't run a Krenko, especially considering he already runs 2 SGC's, Skirk and Sharpshooter. He has the Krenko Abuse package but doesn't play Krenko! Apparently his G1 Semifinal match against 12-post took over 60 minutes. Call me crazy, but in a long, draw out match like that, wouldn't you want a Krenko in your MD? Also, he faced Tabernacle in that match. Krenko + Skirk lets you walk right through a Tabernacle, which I'm assuming would have been relevant.

To B-rad's point, I absolutley agree that Krenko isn't a necessity in a competitive Goblins deck (neither is Piledriver), but you cannot deny the fact he's showing up in Top-8s more often than not. Also, I think Krenko would have specifically helped in the last match against a recurring Tabernacle. I believe Jim Davis would have had better odds in the Semis had he run Krenko MD.

[berry]

Tietze just got his decklist from Jim Davis afaik.

Like everyone is saying it's ridicilous to point toward "no kreno is the right thing" or something equally ridicilous.
Listen to what GobboLord says!

[L10]

Brad, the fact that you, Max Tietze, and Jim Davis are doing well with a list that has G-splash with no Krenko only means one thing: Jim Davis has a VERY solid list. In fact, compare his list from 2010/07/11: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=118&iddeck=390
He had essentially been playing the same deck for over two years, and his only changes were the inclusion of Cavern of Souls, moving Stingscourger from the SB to the MB in place of Chieftain, and his SB due to the meta. So yes, Jim Davis's list is VERY solid, and had been for a while. But most of us (I'd assume) in this thread believes that there are other avenues we can take with the goblins list. If we all play with Jim Davis's list, there is little reason to have this thread.

Also, I tried out Rakdos Charm at a local tourney (small, only 18 people) and went 3-0. I played against Merfolk, Elves, and Dredge.
Merfolk: I landed some Piledrivers, denied his Mutavaults, and won both games. Rakdos Charm destroyed his Aether Vial in G2, which really made him reconsider this greedy mana-base, because he had Daze and no Islands. I actually kept Rakdos Charm in to fight against Jitte.
Elves: He comboed off in turn 4 and I killed him with Rakdos Charm. On game two, I have Lackey, Krenko, and SCG on turn two with the help from Rakdos Charm, and he conceded.
Dredge: On G1, I had a turn 1 Skirk Prospector and a turn 2 MWM to keep his Bridge at bay. He overextended on turn 4, dumping his entire hand, and I used Rakdos Charm for the win. On game 2, I used Surgical Extraction on his Ichorid, destroyed his bridge a couple times, and he never recovered with bad dredges.

I was really hoping to fight the StoneBlade, Miracle, RUG, and Maverick matchups, but I never had the chance. Overall, I think Rakdos Charm is a really nice card but needs further testing. I also had 3 Dreadbores in my SB that never saw play. I am not sure if it is better than Pithing Needle against Planeswalkers, but with Abrupt Decay, it should be better against BUG Control.

[ScatmanX]

Brad, the fact that you, Max Tietze, and Jim Davis are doing well with a list that has G-splash with no Krenko only means one thing: Jim Davis has a VERY solid list. In fact, compare his list from 2010/07/11: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=118&iddeck=390
He had essentially been playing the same deck for over two years, and his only changes were the inclusion of Cavern of Souls, moving Stingscourger from the SB to the MB in place of Chieftain, and his SB due to the meta. So yes, Jim Davis's list is VERY solid, and had been for a while. But most of us (I'd assume) in this thread believes that there are other avenues we can take with the goblins list. If we all play with Jim Davis's list, there is little reason to have this thread.
Agreed.



Also, I tried out Rakdos Charm at a local tourney (small, only 18 people) and went 3-0. I played against Merfolk, Elves, and Dredge.
Merfolk: I landed some Piledrivers, denied his Mutavaults, and won both games. Rakdos Charm destroyed his Aether Vial in G2, which really made him reconsider this greedy mana-base, because he had Daze and no Islands. I actually kept Rakdos Charm in to fight against Jitte.
Elves: He comboed off in turn 4 and I killed him with Rakdos Charm. On game two, I have Lackey, Krenko, and SCG on turn two with the help from Rakdos Charm, and he conceded.
Dredge: On G1, I had a turn 1 Skirk Prospector and a turn 2 MWM to keep his Bridge at bay. He overextended on turn 4, dumping his entire hand, and I used Rakdos Charm for the win. On game 2, I used Surgical Extraction on his Ichorid, destroyed his bridge a couple times, and he never recovered with bad dredges.
This is AWESOME! Thanks for this. Man, wanted to be able to see that Elves player game 1 and the Dredge player. Hell, even the Merfolk one. Mad props to you sir. Glad to see you enjoyed the tech.
I'll be doing more testing with it too.
Mind editing your post with the list you used? Thanks.

[Davran]

Also, I tried out Rakdos Charm at a local tourney (small, only 18 people) and went 3-0. I played against Merfolk, Elves, and Dredge.
Merfolk: I landed some Piledrivers, denied his Mutavaults, and won both games. Rakdos Charm destroyed his Aether Vial in G2, which really made him reconsider this greedy mana-base, because he had Daze and no Islands. I actually kept Rakdos Charm in to fight against Jitte.
Elves: He comboed off in turn 4 and I killed him with Rakdos Charm. On game two, I have Lackey, Krenko, and SCG on turn two with the help from Rakdos Charm, and he conceded.
Dredge: On G1, I had a turn 1 Skirk Prospector and a turn 2 MWM to keep his Bridge at bay. He overextended on turn 4, dumping his entire hand, and I used Rakdos Charm for the win. On game 2, I used Surgical Extraction on his Ichorid, destroyed his bridge a couple times, and he never recovered with bad dredges.

Nice tech! Out of curiosity, how many copies were you running and what did you cut for them? Did you run other grave hate in the board, or were you relying only on the charms?

[L10]

This was the build I used.

//Lands (23)
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Mountains
4 Badlands
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire

//Core (20)

//Other (17)
3 Rakdos Charm
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector

//Sideboard
2 Electrickery
2 Perish
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Dreadbore
3 Duress
3 Earwig Squad


I am purposely playing with three Cavern of Souls because while it is great against blue mages, it is REALLY annoying when not facing against them. Either ways, most people just SB many of their counter spells away for removal spells because they assume I have a playset of Lackey, CoS, and Vial, which further devalues CoS. I also think Wastelands are more important than CoS in more match-ups, so I have a full playset.

I have Goblin Chieftain in my MB because I feel Krenko needs the extra haste enabler to make him really good.
I have two Electrickery in my SB because I was expecting Elves and DnT.
I decided to SB in 3 Dreadbore at the last minute in place of Pithing Needles, just to try it out, but never did. The ability to kill a planeswalker seems very powerful to me, especially against list like Caleb's Tezz Control and BUG Control.
I decided to bring in 3 Duress and 3 Earwig Squad as my SB choice against combo decks and SnT decks. Again, I never had the chance to test it out.

Honestly, as long as you are playing with the Core 20 cards, you will probably do okay. You can even go with Cedric Phillips's Winstigator route and replace Chieftains with Warchiefs.

[GoboLord]

I decided to bring in 3 Duress and 3 Earwig Squad as my SB choice against combo decks and SnT decks. Again, I never had the chance to test it out.


ScatmanX and me did the testing for you. This SB tech didn't improve the MU in the slightest. Both of us found that Earwig Squad's was highly overrated in the Esperblade and Younameit-and-Tell MUs. It did fine against UWx Miracles though...

[Humphrey]

Whenever I start thinking about adding non-creature spells to the deck, I come to the conclusion, that its kinda useless.
With the printing of Cavern, the opponent will have lots of counter on their hand, just waiting for a target.

I didnt test much, but how often you can resolve those spells against blue?

[Valtrix]

You make it seem like you will have Cavern every game, which is not the case. Not every deck you sideboard agaisnt is going to have counterspells anyway, and many will side out most of their CSpells against you or still have targets if you play Vial or don't have Caverns. Realistically there are some cards that using non-creature cards to deal with them is just better and certain effects are hard to replace. It's hard to replace duress effects on a creature, Krosan Grip on a creature, or even the strongest GY hate cards on a creature (Although one might argue Faerie Macabre is good GY hate for this deck). As such, it's certainly reasonable and probably preferred to run non-creatures to deal with specific problems.

As for Earwig Squad, I agree with him being highly overrated. In general anything you want out of their deck you can just handle by trying to attack their hand. However, answering if and how much you want to attack your hand is a different question.

Also, I noticed Perishes are in the black splash, are those primarily to deal with Maverick? Or are they needed vs. RUG or some other MU as well?

[Asgar]

I really like the argument Max Tietze (and Jim Davis) brought here: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10732

You got just 2 Fatty-Slots to not rape your Curve and if you're in a meta with less Maverick and pyroclasm effects, 2 Siege Gangs seem to be the right call 4 me.

I tried Rakdos Charm and nearly never had it, when i wanted to, would always prefer more Goblins for constancy and because you can tutor/find em, when you need em. Besides i don't like the Manabase it requires to run them.

[jrw1985]

I really like the argument Max Tietze (and Jim Davis) brought here: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10732

You got just 2 Fatty-Slots to not rape your Curve and if you're in a meta with less Maverick and pyroclasm effects, 2 Siege Gangs seem to be the right call 4 me.

I tried Rakdos Charm and nearly never had it, when i wanted to, would always prefer more Goblins for constancy and because you can tutor/find em, when you need em. Besides i don't like the Manabase it requires to run them.

Solid sb plan against Omnitell. I liked that he picked a couple MUs and built his sb to be strong against them. Sure he's a dog to dredge and storm, but dredge and storm haven't been showing well these days. It seems like a good plan for a long ass tournament.

I also appreciate that he's leaving in Vial for the Omnitell MU. I've had a tendency to side out Vial against fast combo, but it recently occurred to me that you still need vial to play free goblins so you can keep mana open for casting interactive hate cards, like REB and Kgrip.

The list itself is super simple and intuitive. But there should still be 1 Krenko in it.

[Cleston]

I have two Electrickery in my SB because I was expecting Elves and DnT.


Besides the match-ups you mention, it ocurred to me that this could be a playable card against canadian, as a non-targeted piece of removal for mongeese. Also, vs storm, it disables one of their win conditions (empty the warrens).

thoughts?

[Valtrix]

Is electrickery better than Forked Bolt? Except for killing a Nimble Mongoose, your opponent needs to have at least three creatures for electrickery to do anything more than Forked Bolt would. More importantly though, Forked bolt can deal with two X/1s for one less mana, and can kill X/2s like Stoneforge Mystic.

[Cleston]

Is electrickery better than Forked Bolt? Except for killing a Nimble Mongoose, your opponent needs to have at least three creatures for electrickery to do anything more than Forked Bolt would. More importantly though, Forked bolt can deal with two X/1s for one less mana, and can kill X/2s like Stoneforge Mystic.

I understand electrickery is a very different tool, since the overload ability won't target any creature. It can deal with hexproof/shroud, while forked bolt deals targeted damage just as any other removal spell (e.g. pyrokinesis). Not to mention the interaction with empty the warrens, as mentioned.

[L10]

ScatmanX and me did the testing for you. This SB tech didn't improve the MU in the slightest. Both of us found that Earwig Squad's was highly overrated in the Esperblade and Younameit-and-Tell MUs. It did fine against UWx Miracles though...
I might still keep one or two Earwig Squads in my SB against troublesome spells like Engineered Plaque, Pernicious Deed, Planeswalkers, Humility, Moat, etc.


I didnt test much, but how often you can resolve those spells against blue?
Often enough to be relevant. It is just one of those cards that people do not expect. As GoboLord said a week ago, rouge strategy works. It actually gets better post-sideboard because many players are prone to sideboard away some of their counterspells for removal spells. And if players decide to keep more counterspells in the MB because of Rakdos Charm, it works out better for us because our goblins can get around counterspells.


Also, I noticed Perishes are in the black splash, are those primarily to deal with Maverick? Or are they needed vs. RUG or some other MU as well?
I live in PA so many of the usual players actually went to the SCG last Sunday, which was the reason for the low turnout. A lot of the players I was expecting were not there. But yes, Perish is used against Maverick, Elves, Bant, and especially NO RUG, which are relevant in my meta. When it comes to SB in general, I change it almost every week, depending on the matchups I am expecting. I will probably not bring Perish for SCG for example, as none of the decks I just listed are quite relevant in the current SCG meta, with the probable exception of Maverick.


You got just 2 Fatty-Slots to not rape your Curve and if you're in a meta with less Maverick and pyroclasm effects, 2 Siege Gangs seem to be the right call 4 me.
So having a 1/1 split between Krenko/SCG or having 2 SCG is a meta choice. I can see that argument.


I tried Rakdos Charm and nearly never had it, when i wanted to, would always prefer more Goblins for constancy and because you can tutor/find em, when you need em. Besides i don't like the Manabase it requires to run them.
Yeah, cutting a set of Ports and a CoS just to support enough lands to consistently cast Rakdos Charm's RB is a huge blow for out control plan. However, I am playing with 30 goblins MB, and I feel perfectly comfortable with that. I do feel Rakdos Charm is a meta choice, so mileage may vary.


Besides the match-ups you mention, it ocurred to me that this could be a playable card against canadian, as a non-targeted piece of removal for mongeese. Also, vs storm, it disables one of their win conditions (empty the warrens).
I am still trying to find more uses for Electrickery. It is a cute out vs. Empty the Warrens for sure. I don't see Electrickery useful against Canadian MU because it is only useful in the early games, and they can reach Threshold quit efficiently. I rather attack their graveyard to shrink both Tarmogoyf and Mongoose.


Is electrickery better than Forked Bolt? Except for killing a Nimble Mongoose, your opponent needs to have at least three creatures for electrickery to do anything more than Forked Bolt would. More importantly though, Forked bolt can deal with two X/1s for one less mana, and can kill X/2s like Stoneforge Mystic..
Electrickery is a great mass removal against decks full of x/1 dudes, like DnT, Maverick (?), Infect.dec (make them waste a pump spell), Goblins, ETW, Elves, UB Faeries, Team Italia, etc. While it also get's around Shroud/Hexproof, I do not find utility as relevant. It kills Argothian Enchantress, I guess. At worst, it is a Lava Dart.

[raindrainxi]

I really can't see how Electrickery can be any better than Sharpshooter or Pyrokinesis. The most probable shroud targets would be Mongooses, and they aren't much problem when they are 1/1s.

[jrw1985]

I was PMing with GoboLord and ScatmanX about SB strategies, specifically whether to play K-Grip or Ancient Grudge in a SB. I noticed something that I think is worth including on the thread.

6 Atlanta
2 Cincinnati
0 Providence

I took the liberty of scanning through the StarCitygames Archives for the past 3 events. Back in September in Atlanta there were 6 U/W Control or SnT decks in the Top 16. A week later in Cinicinnati there were only 2 U/W Control // SnT decks in top 16. Last weekend in Providence there were NONE. Zero. Null. Nada.

Meanwhile, artifacts are becoming more popular. Caleb Durward won Cincinnati with an Artifact deck. There was also a White Weeney/Death and Taxes deck that made Top 4 of that event which had bunches o' Vials and Revokers and equipment. Artifacts were heavily featured in last week's 2nd place 12 post deck (Cursed Totems and Pithing Needles in the SB). StonebladeBlade decks are coming back and were heavily featured in the Top 16 of Cincinnati.

It seems like now might be the time to start bringing back the Grudge.

[Barbed Blightning]

Not to mention D&Ts victory at SCG Portland a month back. Deck's rising up.

[berry]

Hi,

I guess I can ask this now when you're starting to discuss Grip vs Grudge - I'm on a monored list (for budgetpurposes) and have been thinking, what can I actually do against a Moat? We have a player who likes to pimp in our metagame who I'm fairly sure plays one...

[Asgar]

If you're monored: don't forget the clock while playing through swords and termini, shut him off doublewhite with ports and try to get the last dmg with siege-gang and/or sharpshooter+prospector.
If you need a spell out, chaos warp and anarchy are your options.

[max_goblin]

Hi,

I play gobbos since Apocalypse, it has been a long time and I really like this green people.

I play in Brazil, the field is a bit different, but we have to deal with white enchantments now and then, I usually use, in monoRed, Anarchy.
I was not using it but with the new UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo) we have to deal with enchantments in some way. Last game I played
agains one, it used Enlightened Tutor for Moat, what I usually can counter with siege gang, sharpshooter and Lightning crafter, but then he goes for humility.. in the other game he Energy Field+Rest in piece turn 3.. Its impossible to come back from this in monoRed, even Rg goblins will only have a chance in G2.

He plays a lot of basic lands, so his fetchs always found island and plains. Its really a tough game. I hope someday Enlightened Tutor will get banned too LoL.

By the way, very nice primer GoboLord. We have one in ligamagic.com, that is a website for brazilians, and I read a lot of yours to help me build that primer.

[ScatmanX]

Hi,

I guess I can ask this now when you're starting to discuss Grip vs Grudge - I'm on a monored list (for budgetpurposes) and have been thinking, what can I actually do against a Moat? We have a player who likes to pimp in our metagame who I'm fairly sure plays one...
Against Moat your outs are:
- Anarchy
- Chaos Warp
- Shooter/Siege Gang/Prospector shannenigans (Krenko helps to deal a lot of dmg)
- Kiki-Jiki + Skirk Prospector + Lightning Crafter or Goblin Sharpshooter "infinite" loop
- Kill them before they get it down
- Waste and Port the hell out of them, so they're unable to get to 4 mana, or double W.
- Play some odd tech, like Voracious Dragon. Even Rakdos Charm can get in the last points og dmg by surprise if they Miracle Entreat for 4-5 angels.

[jrw1985]

Looks like we know to beat a Moat.

[SMR0079]

If you are not playing Thalia you are doing it wrong.

[ScatmanX]

If you are not playing Thalia you are doing it wrong.
Hahahahahahahaha.
Let'ssee if anyone actually falls for this.

[Sasan]

Hahahahahahahaha.
Let'ssee if anyone actually falls for this.

Sure you can win tournaments without Thalia but look at the tournament reports of the winners: they played not often against combo. my assumption is that a goblin deck with Thalia can win those games and that the reason she is the bomb :-)

[FoxBlade]

Sure you can win tournaments without Thalia but look at the tournament reports of the winners: they played not often against combo. my assumption is that a goblin deck with Thalia can win those games and that the reason she is the bomb :-)

Why in the world would you play Thalia in goblins? I assumed SMR was joking, maybe you're joking too? :o

[Avatara]

Why in the world would you play Thalia in goblins? I assumed SMR was joking, maybe you're joking too? :o
Combo will often win before you drop your Thalia.

[berry]

All this trolling and the "wow you didn't know how to win against Moat?" aside I still think this deserves at least some consideration because like a man a few posts above me mentioned, I too have an Energy Field/RIP-combo running around in my meta. But Anarchy would be your guys removal of choice then? Guess it actually might be worth a SB-slot.

[Sasan]

Combo will often win before you drop your Thalia.

that is Not true. I won many many games against Storm behause of Thalia.

Dredge and Reanimator regualrly need 2-3 turns to win and Thalia will give them problems if it comes down on turn two.

Omni Tell is also really slowed down.

So yes: Thalia is the bomb. Before the troll comments I suggest reading the last few pages and the tournament report of gobolord where he tested Thalia and found it great.

[chibi]

i have been playtesting against 12 post a lot in MWS lately, and i must say that matchup is very hard to win against. any tips in playing against this matchup?

[dsck]

i have been playtesting against 12 post a lot in MWS lately, and i must say that matchup is very hard to win against. any tips in playing against this matchup?

Turn 1 lackey or vial + mana denial.

[ScatmanX]

All this trolling and the "wow you didn't know how to win against Moat?" aside I still think this deserves at least some consideration because like a man a few posts above me mentioned, I too have an Energy Field/RIP-combo running around in my meta. But Anarchy would be your guys removal of choice then? Guess it actually might be worth a SB-slot.
If that's a thing on your meta, Anarchy and ReBs should help you. If you can splash, Krosan Grip should deal the deal.


So yes: Thalia is the bomb. Before the troll comments I suggest reading the last few pages and the tournament report of gobolord where he tested Thalia and found it great.
Never said it wasn't. Actually right now I support Thalia. But saying "If you are not playing Thalia you are doing it wrong" it's freaking funny. Heard that about Piledriver, Warchief and others before, and it's almost never true.

[Avatara]

that is Not true. I won many many games against Storm behause of Thalia.

Dredge and Reanimator regualrly need 2-3 turns to win and Thalia will give them problems if it comes down on turn two.

Omni Tell is also really slowed down.
Those are combo decks we also have a chance against without Thalia... I'm talking about Belchor, Ant and the likes; it's not like those have completely disappeared. Unless you already have a lackey on the board with enough steam in your hand I doubt any of those decks mind waiting another turn before they can combo. Don't forget that 50% of the time Thalia will come down after their second turn. You should run 4x Thalia for that and know that you are facing combo in order to actually mulligan into her.

I think Thalia is a meta-game call and not THE WAY this deck SHOULD be build. If there is a reference list at all, it would be something like Jim Davis' list. However it's still based on the meta game (Star city doesn't have as much combo as (west) Europe has) and Jim is super experienced with that list.

[FoxBlade]

that is Not true. I won many many games against Storm behause of Thalia.

Dredge and Reanimator regualrly need 2-3 turns to win and Thalia will give them problems if it comes down on turn two.

Omni Tell is also really slowed down.

So yes: Thalia is the bomb. Before the troll comments I suggest reading the last few pages and the tournament report of gobolord where he tested Thalia and found it great.

I don't care if Gobolord found it great (arguments stand and fall on their own - so I don't care who said it). I wouldn't use Thalia, I think she looks terrible.

I'd need to splash white to fit her in my deck and I could run thorn of amethyst which does the same thing and I wouldn't need to splash white. Not only that, but I could put more than one thorn of amethyst down whereas I could only drop 1 Thalia.

So if everyone is being serious now and telling me that somehow Thalia is better than thorns, I'd really like to know why.

[Lorenzo767]

I don't care if Gobolord found it great (arguments stand and fall on their own - so I don't care who said it). I wouldn't use Thalia, I think she looks terrible.

I'd need to splash white to fit her in my deck and I could run thorn of amethyst which does the same thing and I wouldn't need to splash white. Not only that, but I could put more than one thorn of amethyst down whereas I could only drop 1 Thalia.

So if everyone is being serious now and telling me that somehow Thalia is better than thorns, I'd really like to know why.

I think because Thalia is a beater, you can cheat it into play by Aether Vial or play it with Cavern of Souls without any fear of counter spells.
And also i don't think that is really too easy have more than 1 thorn in play, it can be easily countered and the second one will cost 3...

[Aspirin]

I don't care if Gobolord found it great (arguments stand and fall on their own - so I don't care who said it). I wouldn't use Thalia, I think she looks terrible.

I'd need to splash white to fit her in my deck and I could run thorn of amethyst which does the same thing and I wouldn't need to splash white. Not only that, but I could put more than one thorn of amethyst down whereas I could only drop 1 Thalia.

So if everyone is being serious now and telling me that somehow Thalia is better than thorns, I'd really like to know why.

She beats for 2. Your Thorns don't.

[FoxBlade]

I think because Thalia is a beater, you can cheat it into play by Aether Vial or play it with Cavern of Souls without any fear of counter spells.

Yes you can cheat it into play with vial but in order to do that you'd have to wait until turn 3.

Your second point - cavern of souls, you'd have to name human or soldier to play her without any fear of counterspells and then you'd open your goblins up to being countered instead.

Neither of those two points sound like a good reason to run Thalia.



And also i don't think that is really too easy have more than 1 thorn in play, it can be easily countered and the second one will cost 3...

Their counterspells would also cost 1 extra and it isn't that hard to get 3 mana in goblins considering lists run 21-24 lands (I run 22 myself).


She beats for 2. Your Thorns don't.

I know that, but I don't care that she beats for two, I'd still have to splash white to fit her in. She's also vulnerable to removal and thorns isn't.

[GoboLord]

I don't care if Gobolord found it great (arguments stand and fall on their own - so I don't care who said it). I wouldn't use Thalia, I think she looks terrible.

I'd need to splash white to fit her in my deck and I could run thorn of amethyst which does the same thing and I wouldn't need to splash white. Not only that, but I could put more than one thorn of amethyst down whereas I could only drop 1 Thalia.

So if everyone is being serious now and telling me that somehow Thalia is better than thorns, I'd really like to know why.

I really like what you said in the first part, because you are right! Arguments stand and fall on their own! So here are my arguments for Thalia:

Thalia is a pain in the ass for UWx Miracles, Esperblade and RUG Thresh. So why would we reject a card that's good (and with "good" I mean to say that those decks can't just win through Thalia, they MUST get rid of her) against 3 of the DTB? Reasons would be that (1) she's not a goblin and (2) that she requires a W splash. Those agruments are pretty good and I'll show you why.
Well, I can't argue that not not being a goblin is not problematic in an synergistic tribal-aggro deck. However, Thalia is a CREATURE. Aggro decks want CREATURES. If we can get our hands on a creature that is good against 50% of the DsTB while being not bad against the other half, I would say that we might give that creature a shot.
"But she demands splashing W". This is not a problem - not at all. We have Vials. We have Caverns. We have enough space for duals and fecthies. Other legacy decks consider their manabases as "Wasteland-proof" when they have only 3-4 basiclands (while still being 3-colored!). So I don't think that we should shit our pants on this topic. Opponet's Wastelands will destroy Cavern of Souls in (estimated) 90% of all cases anyway, so our dual-lands are save I guess. On top of that, there are successful lists that run 4 Rishadan Ports in addition to Wastelands, Caverns, Fetchies and 1-2 dualland. This also points in the directin that our manabase is not the thing we should worry about.

Well, I stop here since I dont want to write an essay on that topic. I really like to hear some valid arguments AGAINST Thalia in Vial-Goblins - so far I havn't heard any.

[FoxBlade]

@GoboLord: Okay I like some of the arguments you have there (its not enough to play though Thalia, they have to remove her and that aggro decks want creatures).

Still though I'm very skeptical of choosing Thalia.

You argue that we have cavern of souls, however if we use cavern of souls to play Thalia - we would have to either name human or soldiers to get the white mana and make her uncounterable. In the first couple of turns, this would be problematic for the rest of the deck, because now our goblins would be vulnerable to counters and that land would be colorless for the rest of the game (unless you use it to play Thalia). That doesn't really seem worth it to me.

I do agree that it wouldn't be hard to have a build to get the white mana, but my point isn't that white mana is hard to get - rather it's whether or not splashing white just for Thalia is worthwhile as opposed to running black, green, or staying mono-red or some combination of those colors for the cards they offer.

Returning to your point above, that its not enough for Thalia to play though her, they have to remove her - against decks like Miracles I don't think that's too much of a problem if they're running Terminus, since it wipes the board and costs 2 instead of 1 (assuming it's played for it's miracle cost), whereas if you run Thorns instead, you don't have to worry about Terminus.

However, I think that point is relevant to the rest of the decks you mentioned, so it goes back to what I said above: whether or not splashing white just for Thalia is worthwhile as opposed to running black, green, or staying mono-red or some combination of those colors for the cards they offer.

[jrw1985]

@Thalia

Why run Thalia?

Running Thalia makes sense just because there are a bunch of decks out there that play more spells than creatures. That's it. Goblins, Elves, and Maverick are the only decks that run more than 20 creatures. You can expect every other deck you face to have less than 33% of the deck as creatures. In fact, it's usually closer to 25% of the deck being creatures. Often, it's less than that even.

When you resolve a Thalia you are almost timewalking your opponent. If you land a T2 Thalia which your opponent cannot answer you've gained an incredible tempo advantage. This advantage is significant, but it only really works when your deck is already functioning like a classic goblins deck. A Thalia by itself isn't going to win the game for you. But T1 Lackey/Vial, T2 Thalia? That's a tempo boost for the Goblins deck that in most games your opponent won't be able to win through without an answer to one or both cards. Follow this up with Waste/port activations and the Goblins deck is playing creatures for free, while most of the spells the opponent plays cost more, and their manabase is being attacked. That's a tempo trifecta.

Post-board, Thalia gives a lot of flexibility. First off, you're starting off with 3 strong Anti-combo cards already (3 Thalia MD). It's always been difficult for Goblins to have an effective SB against combo just because you need to run so many anti-combo cards SB. But when you play Thalia MD you're starting out with a higher count of Combo hate. Not only that, but you can now follow up T1 Chalice of the Void with a T2 Thalia. Or a T1 Lackey with T2 Thalia. Basically, it allows you to disrupt their game while putting on a clock. This has always been difficult for Goblins. Having access to a 2 in 1 tool like Thalia gives Goblins a lot more tempo reach.

Against creature decks Thalia is easily sided out for Pyrokinesis.

Thalia makes it much more difficult for mana-light decks like Dredge to cast their Free spells. LED costs 1. Breakthrough costs U1. A flashback on Faithless Looting is now R3.

@FoxBlade asking Why not just run Thorn? because this is Legacy! We've got duals, fetches, Caverns, and Vials. It isn't difficult getting Thalia in play. And if you're going to pay 2 for the same effect, you might as well get the one that can attack and block as well. You mentioned that your opponent will just use removal on Thalia. But what if you lead with T1 Lackey? Where's their removal now? They now need to choose between Lackey and Thalia, and yet BOTH of them are must-answer cards to most decks.

Thalia was first popularized in the Maverick deck as a 3-of. It was used as a body that could slow down opposing Combo and Control decks, and in conjunction with Wasteland would wreck opposing manabases.

At GP Altanta Sawyer Lucy took 6th place with a Rwu Goblin build that included 3 Thalia maindeck. This was the first time I recall seeing a Thalia build place well at a major tournament.

Thalia in a Goblins deck serves an almost identical purpose to Thalia in Maverick: it slows down opposing combo plays. Like Maverick, Goblins has no way of searching for Thalia or shuffling away multiples in hand. Unlike Maverick though, Goblins cannot protect a resolved Thalia with Mom, nor can it equip Thalia. But Thalia still beats for 2, and can be cheated in with Vial.

[max_goblin]

I really like Thalia, she is a hell of a creature, but:

1. Your mana base get worst, as FoxBlade explained.
2. She is not a goblin, so you cant tutor her, cant draw her with ringleader.. it makes a lot of interactions of the deck worst.
3. People usually brings creature hate from side, using a creature as response dont seems good. I´ve tried using phyrexian revoker in place of needle, by the same motives that gobolord is using for thalia, it swings, can see game through vial or caverns.. but that didnt worked as I imagined.

I´ve used Thalia a lot in modern, in a lot of differents white decks, she is really nice, but even in a deck that abuse of her she is not that awesome. I can be wrong, but I dont think Thalia is an auto-include in goblins deck. This arguments seem valid to me.

Oh and one last thing. I took of my thorns from my SB, they are good, but cant answer ominitell, so I replace them with trinisphere, I am still testing but sounds good, it works against RUG and the others combos as well AND you can use it by show and tell so they cant win in the same turn by omni.

[menace13]

I know that, but I don't care that she beats for two, I'd still have to splash white to fit her in. She's also vulnerable to removal and thorns isn't. Umm, the point is
It is the entire reason to run Thalia over Thorn. It beats for 2, it's a creature, gobs plays Vials, gobs wants to swing with creatures, thalia is one.

That's great that you don't care, but then dont ask for answers if youre going to respond with a " i dont care".
Also,They cant afford to remove Thalia when Piley, Lackey, Krenko, SGC are in your deck

[akabidu]

Guys, gonna play a big event in a few weeks, and Im playing gobbos splashes for white for Oblivion Rings in SB, and Im considering to put some thalias in too. Running 2 plateaus, 3 caverns and a standard mono red base deck. What should i take out from main our SB for the Thalias ?! Our maybe just consider combo bad matches.....

[berry]

ScatmanX: Thanks for the reply. I can't afford the splash but REB and Anarchy seems legit.

[FoxBlade]

That's great that you don't care, but then dont ask for answers if youre going to respond with a " i dont care".
Also,They cant afford to remove Thalia when Piley, Lackey, Krenko, SGC are in your deck

You took half my sentence out of context and focused on just that one part of it.

I'm not saying that I don't care for answers, both Gobolord and jrw1985 provided some sound reasons for her inclusion. So, thank you both for your replies.

What I don't care for is when people point out the obvious. I can see that Thalia is a creature, so it's pretty obvious that she can swing for damage. So I don't care for answers that point out obvious things like "You can tap her and she'll hit your opponent for 2 damage", because by that logic, why not include creatures "XYZ, they swing for damage too!"

Basically what I'm saying here is that when someone answers you with that kind of reply, it doesn't provide a good reason to warrant her inclusion.

I think it is good to have discussions like these, I am still a bit skeptical of Thalia, but Gobolord and jrw1985's answers to my question have convinced me that I should at least consider and test her.

[ScatmanX]

Good one...... Yeh, let's all Just run Grey Ogre
Gray Ogre

[raindrainxi]

Admittedly, on paper Thalia isn't much. You have to test her to see her value. Now when you test her you will know if she is as to your playing style or not. I've only tested her on MWS and while she was good, it really isn't up to my playing style. I dislike splashes, especially since white splash is a bit meh. And then the fact that you need to add 3 to do any good since you can't tutor her, diluting your deck. You end up splashing solely for Thalia. But you would understand what the fuzz is about if you do try her out.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Small tournament today, 29 people. I did horribly, but oh well...

MonoRed build - 22 lands, Tuktuk as artifact removal. 1 SGC, 1 Krenko.

Sideboard:
3 Angel of Despair
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Pyrokinesis

I went MonoRed. I had a feeling I would do poorly and I delivered.
As a player, I tend to do poorly in unpracticed situations. Practice makes perfect... and I was prepared for Show and Tell and RUG Delver.

Round 1 - Chris with U/R Homebrew
He goes Volcanic Island, Flamekin Harbinger? Finding Nivmagus Elemental and putting it on top of his library. I chuckle and do what Goblins does. I flood the board with goblins, among them SGC and Sharpshooter. He plays Apostle's Blessing on my SGC because he had previously enchanted his elemental with Clout of the Dominus, Dazes the Blessing, Forces the Daze, then Flusterstorms exiling everything. Nivmagus is huge now but every time he attacks he loses 3 due to SGC and Sharpshooter. He concedes with 1 card in hand and 11 life.

I don't know how to board so I put in REB and PBlast
Game 2 he plays Delver turn 1. It flips and swings above my team. It ends with him Flinging the Delver to kill me.

Game 3 I board out the blue hate in favor for Pyrokinesis.
I keep a lousy hand thinking game 2 was luck and I'd draw into business. I did, but...
Kept Vial, Chieftain, Prospector, and 4 lands. Drew into Krenko which I expected to seal the deal. He apparently sided in a ton of burn. Forked Bolt kills my Prospector. Same for the Chieftain. Lightning Bolt killed Krenko all while 2 flipped Delvers beat my face in...
*sigh*

Round 2 - Sam with Zombardment
Again a deck I have never played against. He is running 4 colors and I get to find out the hard way that Deathrite Shaman first ability is a mana ability and cannot be responded to with Relic...
Game 1 I scoop when he gets Goblin Bombardment online and kills every dude I play.

Out: 3 Piledriver, 1 Vial, 1 Tuktuk. In: 3 Relic, 2 Needle.
Game 2 I learn about the Shaman... *sigh*. I do manage to Matron for Sharpshooter to kill 4 Lingering Souls tokens, a Bloodghast, and a Gravecrawler before he uses Zealous Persecution to end a combat step in his favor.

Round 3 - Bye... Yaaay a win!

Round 4 - Gil with Charbelcher
Played against this guy before. He plays Goblins. I mentally prepare myself for the mirror when I ask about the matches he won. He beat a friend of mine who had told me about a loss to a Belcher player...
Game 1 - He combos off too early to get 8 goblins. I play MWM knocking it down to 5. I then play 2/2's whittling down his army so only 2 remain by the time I Matron for Sharpshooter for the win.
Game 2 - He wins his turn 1 or 2.
Game 3 - He probes 3 times then storms for 16 goblins. Oh well :rolleyes:

Round 5 - Eric with RUG Delver
I always enjoy playing against Eric. Last time I saw him was in a top 8 and he was on Sneak and Show with 1 Omni.
Game 1 I lead with Lackey. He gets a Ringleader in for me then does nothing while I stall with MWMs. I force him to use his counter magic on my Piledrivers before playing Krenko and winning.
Game 2 my Vial gets forced but I also have Cavern. This game was quicker but ended the same way. Krenko.

So I never saw Show and Tell and when I finally played RUG it no longer mattered... I guess that's how it goes some times.

[GoboLord]

Good one...... Yeh, let's all Just run Grey Ogre

Could you please stop disrupting our discussions with nonsense like this? If you got a problem with FoxBlade's viewpoint I suggest that you just PM him. However, if you want to participate in the discussions of this thread then I must ask you to do so in a polite tone. Your last replies were not contributing to the discussion, but were meant to discredit a certain user - this is something I don't want to see here.

@ Ace//Homebrew:
Thank you for the report.
I wonder why you sided out Piledriver against Zombardement. I see the MU as follows: when 70% of their creatures either can't block or should not be used to block (Blood Artist) I think our best plan would be to outrace them. Could you tell us what was behind your boarding plans?

[lordofthepit]

Round 1 - Chris with U/R Homebrew
He goes Volcanic Island, Flamekin Harbinger? Finding Nivmagus Elemental and putting it on top of his library. I chuckle and do what Goblins does. I flood the board with goblins, among them SGC and Sharpshooter. He plays Apostle's Blessing on my SGC because he had previously enchanted his elemental with Clout of the Dominus, Dazes the Blessing, Forces the Daze, then Flusterstorms exiling everything. Nivmagus is huge now but every time he attacks he loses 3 due to SGC and Sharpshooter. He concedes with 1 card in hand and 11 life.

I don't know how to board so I put in REB and PBlast
Game 2 he plays Delver turn 1. It flips and swings above my team. It ends with him Flinging the Delver to kill me.

Game 3 I board out the blue hate in favor for Pyrokinesis.
I keep a lousy hand thinking game 2 was luck and I'd draw into business. I did, but...
Kept Vial, Chieftain, Prospector, and 4 lands. Drew into Krenko which I expected to seal the deal. He apparently sided in a ton of burn. Forked Bolt kills my Prospector. Same for the Chieftain. Lightning Bolt killed Krenko all while 2 flipped Delvers beat my face in...
*sigh*


This is hilarious, although I'm pretty sure he can't cast the Blessing on your SGC.

[B-rad]

Played SCG Indy open yesterday trying to defend my title. Ended up 5-2-1. Rd 1 lost to dredge. Rd 2 beat dredge. Rd 3 crushed Maverick. Rd 4 crushed the mirror. Rd 5 Draw against miracles. Rd 6 beat miracles. Rd 7 lost to belcher(turn oned me both games :( Rd 8 beat BuG control. Ended up 33rd. Things to note: a lot of Rug delver miracles/Stoneblade in the room and a hell of a lot of goblins. Still felt like I was playing at a high level and couldn't lose to fair decks.

[Sasan]

Played SCG Indy open yesterday trying to defend my title. Ended up 5-2-1. Rd 1 lost to dredge. Rd 2 beat dredge. Rd 3 crushed Maverick. Rd 4 crushed the mirror. Rd 5 Draw against miracles. Rd 6 beat miracles. Rd 7 lost to belcher(turn oned me both games :( Rd 8 beat BuG control. Ended up 33rd. Things to note: a lot of Rug delver miracles/Stoneblade in the room and a hell of a lot of goblins. Still felt like I was playing at a high level and couldn't lose to fair decks.

What was your list? Would love a tournament report :)

[orcanmail]

My mono red build has just been raped by a card called form of the dragon, stops non flyers attacking and does 5 damage to me each turn. They built their deck around it to cheat it into play.

So as it is an enchantment i auto considered krosan grip, but then i noticed the drawback is the player falls to 5 life each turn, and with my tarfires i thought it may be worth considering fireblast, discard 2 mountains to avoid paying cost and do 4 damage to target creature or player.

I then thought that maybe with a chieftain build with tarfires and SGC, maybe extra burn would be extremely effective and add a surprise package. Has anyone ever tried fireblasts in goblins?

a second thought totally unconnected was the card trinisphere, an artifact that makes any spell less than 3, cost 3 to cast. has anyone ever tried it as we have a higher mana curvr than most and can cheat cards into play.

[liamb]

2 days ago I have attended small, 4-rounds tournament. Played simillar do Jim Davis' list with fallowing changes:
-2 Goblin Piledriver
-1 Mogg War Marshal
-1 Fetch
-1 Mountain
-1 Siege-Gang Commander

+3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Karakas
+1 Plateau
+1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Sb: Was -2 Angel of Despair (I only have one)
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Stingscourger

Won 2-1 against Nic-fit (thank you Krenko)
1-1 draw against Bant due time limit (game 2 took us quite long – I had 930 (again thank you Krenko) goblins and my opponent behind Dueling Grounds and me shooting him dead with Siege-Gang Commander).
I won 2-1 against some kind of tempo/rock BUG deck with delvers, oozes, bobs, goyfs and so on.
Won 2-1 against RUG tempo *****.

After 4 rounds I was first (I was the only player with 10 points) but one lad from top4 wanted to play additional round for prize split. Unfortunately I lost 2-1 against Omniscience. Still It was kind of funny to see some surprised faces when the audience looked at bald angel among other goblins. The last game I lost due my play error – I was on the draw and kept my 7 with 2 lands, Red Elemental Blast, Stingscourger. My opponent was sculpting his hand and played t3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor. He predicted I had REB in hand because I always try to save 1 untaped mountain. When he played Jace he immediately wanted to put it into his graveyard just to provoke my red counterspell. Stupid me - I fell into his trap. Next turn he played S&T into omniscience. Anyway – what you would do? Let the Jace resolve? Muligan this hand?

[Nelis]

My opponent was sculpting his hand and played t3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor. He predicted I had REB in hand because I always try to save 1 untaped mountain. When he played Jace he immediately wanted to put it into his graveyard just to provoke my red counterspell. Stupid me - I fell into his trap. Next turn he played S&T into omniscience. Anyway – what you would do? Let the Jace resolve?

Did you have any creatures in play? If so, I guess you should've had Jace resolve since S&T into Omniscience is a bigger threat.

If he hadn't put his Jace in the graveyard immediately then it might not be wrong to counter it. It could just as well his only threat.

[liamb]

Did you have any creatures in play? If so, I guess you should've had Jace resolve since S&T into Omniscience is a bigger threat.

If he hadn't put his Jace in the graveyard immediately then it might not be wrong to counter it. It could just as well his only threat.

I had no creatures. My hand was rather slow therefore i had this thought to muligan this hand and in general - muligan more aggresively. Still - two hate cards was kinda ok.

[Nelis]

Its hard because he put his jace in his graveyard immediately which is a tell. I think in this case you should not have countered his Jace and hope for a lucky ringleader draw to deal with his Jace.

Otherwise I think you should have countered Jace. Like I said, it could have been his only threat.

[Mindlash]

2 days ago I have attended small, 4-rounds tournament. Played simillar do Jim Davis' list with fallowing changes:
-2 Goblin Piledriver
-1 Mogg War Marshal
-1 Fetch
-1 Mountain
-1 Siege-Gang Commander

+3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Karakas
+1 Plateau
+1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Sb: Was -2 Angel of Despair (I only have one)
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Stingscourger

Won 2-1 against Nic-fit (thank you Krenko)
1-1 draw against Bant due time limit (game 2 took us quite long – I had 930 (again thank you Krenko) goblins and my opponent behind Dueling Grounds and me shooting him dead with Siege-Gang Commander).
I won 2-1 against some kind of tempo/rock BUG deck with delvers, oozes, bobs, goyfs and so on.
Won 2-1 against RUG tempo *****.

After 4 rounds I was first (I was the only player with 10 points) but one lad from top4 wanted to play additional round for prize split. Unfortunately I lost 2-1 against Omniscience. Still It was kind of funny to see some surprised faces when the audience looked at bald angel among other goblins. The last game I lost due my play error – I was on the draw and kept my 7 with 2 lands, Red Elemental Blast, Stingscourger. My opponent was sculpting his hand and played t3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor. He predicted I had REB in hand because I always try to save 1 untaped mountain. When he played Jace he immediately wanted to put it into his graveyard just to provoke my red counterspell. Stupid me - I fell into his trap. Next turn he played S&T into omniscience. Anyway – what you would do? Let the Jace resolve? Muligan this hand?

An alternative to Angel might be Confusion in the Ranks if you have just one Angel. CitR is much cheaper and will bring you as much "rofl's" from bystanders as Angel would. I am not a big fan of Stingscourgers and have only one of them in my 75, though I am unsure if 3 Confusions are enough...but 4 seem a bit much since you only use them in this one matchup (you still have the option die hardcast them in other matchups but why would you?). You should definatly give it a try. Once you SnT Confusion into play your next turn will be awesome with all those Matrons/Ringleaders and Omniscience on your side ;-)

Greetings Mindlash

[Ace/Homebrew]

@ Ace//Homebrew:
Thank you for the report.
I wonder why you sided out Piledriver against Zombardement. I see the MU as follows: when 70% of their creatures either can't block or should not be used to block (Blood Artist) I think our best plan would be to outrace them. Could you tell us what was behind your boarding plans?

There were actually 3 different zombie decks there, all with slightly different takes on the build. The one I played against played Badlands, Scrubland, and bayou. The creatures I saw were Tidehollow Sculler, Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, Deathrite Shaman, and Carrion Feeder with Goblin Bombardment, Lingering Souls, and Zealous Persecution as non-creature cards.

I believe the Shaman and Persecution were in from the board. My game one loss was due to Goblin Bombardment. I knew I wanted Pithing Needle and Relic of Progenitus in game 2. I left 1 Driver in just in case a situation arose where one would end the game but due to a lack of :u: across the table I guessed it was bad in the matchup.

[ScatmanX]

An alternative to Angel might be Confusion in the Ranks if you have just one Angel. CitR is much cheaper and will bring you as much "rofl's" from bystanders as Angel would. I am not a big fan of Stingscourgers and have only one of them in my 75, though I am unsure if 3 Confusions are enough...but 4 seem a bit much since you only use them in this one matchup (you still have the option die hardcast them in other matchups but why would you?). You should definatly give it a try. Once you SnT Confusion into play your next turn will be awesome with all those Matrons/Ringleaders and Omniscience on your side ;-)

Greetings Mindlash
Tested 25 games this weekend against Omnitell, with 2 Pyroclasms and 3 Stifles on the board.
On the Draw I had 6 losses and 6 wins. All wins were due to having Confusions of the Ranks on my opener, and won trough either Omni/Emrakul/Grizzle. All losses I didn't have the enchantment. 3 games Angel of Dispair insted of Confusion would lead into a loss.
On the play, won 9 games, lost 4. 6 Wins I had Confusion of the Ranks, that won the game, 2 Chalice of The Void won the game, and the last one I had Vial +2 Ports + Wasteland, and it was enough. The 4 I lost I did not see confusion.
There was a total of 7 games were I saw Chalice of the Void, but it was useless (worse then useless sometimes, because playing it meant not using Port).
0 Games were won by bouncing Emrakul/Grizzle with Stingscourger (I found this interesting).

The list I played was a lot like Jim Davis, couple of changes MD, and the SB was: 3 Kinesis, 1 Tuktuk, 3 Relic, 2 Surgical (not brought in), 3 Confusion in the Ranks, 3 Chalice of the Void.
Hope this helps anyone.


@orcanmail: Fireblast is bad in goblins. The deck you mentioned is probably Shelldrazi, and is cheating Dragonform into play somehow (Show and Tell or Sheldock Isle). You have answers against those, so my advice would be to focus them.
Trini is quite expensive. Haven't tested, but sounds bad. If you test it, let us know.

@Ace/Homebrew: Against Zombies I'd straight swap the 3 Vials you left in for some Kinesis. It usually kills 2-3 creatures, stopping the bleed. Also, Piledrivers should stay in. I'd favor them higher than MWM. Maybe a split between them.

[GoboLord]

@ Scatman:
Thanks for sharing your testing results, I'm sure we all profit from that. So, what I can read from your testing results is this: if someone wants to dedicate SB space to S&T.dec he/she will be better of with Confusion in the ranks than Angel of Despair.

@ Ace:
I agree with Scatman, my intention would also be to side out Vials rather than Piledriver. You should be able to win very fast against this deck, as they don't put down to many blockers in their early turns.

[Sasan]

@Scatman: Can you specify why Angel did not win you games? Would you have won the 6 games on the Play with Angel, too? is Confusion to your opinion better? did you feel more comfortable with it? :-)

[ScatmanX]

@Scatman: Can you specify why Angel did not win you games? Would you have won the 6 games on the Play with Angel, too? is Confusion to your opinion better? did you feel more comfortable with it? :-)
I'm not home right now, and left my notes there. From where I remember all except once, that Angel failed was because of Stifle, while the other one he simply SnT next turn again. So, I guess that, if you want to be prepared against Stifle, Confusion is better.

[Sasan]

so after you played confusion in the ranks in response to show and tell, the omni tell player can still stifle the ability of Confusion with stifle..ok but only one time. the other turn you only play a creature and exchange controls. Do I understand right?

[ScatmanX]

so after you played confusion in the ranks in response to show and tell, the omni tell player can still stifle the ability of Confusion with stifle..ok but only one time. the other turn you only play a creature and exchange controls. Do I understand right?
If he drops Omniscience from SnT, then Counfusion will trigger twice. Once the 1st one resolve, the snd one fizzle due to ack of legal targets. If he Stifles one trigger, then the other one resolves, and you get Omnitell. He needs 2 Stifles to keep Omniscience. (and both enchatments come into the battlefiels troguh SnT, not "in response" of anything).
If he drops Emrakul or Grizzlebrand, and you drop Confusion in the Ranks, you can Vial in any goblin, or cast any goblin in your turn, to steal his guy, and then just profit from it. He can Stifle the trigger for 1 goblin, but normally you have more than 1 to play/Vial, or the 1 you have is Mogg Warmarchall, that dodges Stifle by himself.

[Sasan]

thanks scatman ;) I did not mean the phrase "in response to" literally. I know that all permanents come into play the same time with stifle. Confusion seems better for goblins than Angel as we always have at least one creature
to bring into play.

[LeoCop 90]

Hello everyone! I'm new to this forum and the first thing i want to do is to apologize for my probably bad English...I'm from Italy and i will surely do a lot of mistakes.
I started playing magic when i was thirteen with the sets Legions and Onslaught... my older brother also played magic a lot of years ago and he played...Goblins.So it looked like i started my magic experience with the right sets. I played for 2-3 years doing some very small tournaments and doing well; i once won a box of Fifth Dawn (one of the worst sets ever done).
Some months ago a new magic shop opened in my town and I decided to restart playing (I'm now 22). I also collect goblins and i have every goblin ever printed except for the ones from starter, portal and portal second age wich i want to find as soon as possible.
I also want to thank everyone who write in this thread because you helped me to understand how I should play a goblin deck today and wich cards should I use.
But is now the time to start writing the real reason of my post. I did a tournament with about 45 people in my town yesterday, and this was my list.
Main deck:
Creatures(34):
-4 Goblin Lackey
-4 Goblin Piledriver
-4 Goblin Warchief
-4 Goblin Matron
-4 Goblin Ringleader
-3 Mogg War Marshal
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Skirk Prospector
-1 Mogg Fanatic
-1 Stingscourger
-1 Goblin Tinkerer
-1 Goblin Chieftain
-1 Goblin Sharpshooter
-1 Krenko, Mob Boss
-1 Siege Gang Commander
Artifacts(4):
- 4 Aether Vial
Lands(22):
- 4 Wasteland
- 3 Rishadan Port
- 4 Cavern of Souls
- 4 Bloodstained Mire
- 7 Mountains.

Side Deck:
Artifacts(5):
- 3 Chalice of the Void
- 2 Serum Powder
Enchantments(6):
- 4 Leyline of the Void
- 2 Confusion in the Ranks
Creatures(4):
- 1 Goblin Tinkerer
- 1 Stingscourger
- 2 Angel of Despair

I think there is not a lot to explain about my choices in main deck. I would have splashed green for Tin Street Hooligan but I can't afford Taiga.I played 4 fetches because although you suggest non to play them in mono red lists, I still think it can be useful to eliminate lands from the deck and avoid dead draws, especially in long games.I'm not afraid of losing 2-3 life points, except against burn. But against burn is always a short match so I shouldn't draw more than 1 fetch.I was undecided about playing Mogg Fanatic or Tarfire, and I finally chose the mogg because he is a creature,can pump Piledriver, can be played through Cavern, can block and prevent Jitte and Batterskull to charge, can be useful against dredge. The big problem is that he dont kills Stoneforge Mystic and Delver, but I anyway chose him.
In the side i decided to focus against the unfair matchups. So i played angels and confusion against Show and tell, Leyline as grave-hate and Chalices mainly against combo,but they can always be useful. I experimented 2 Serum Powder wich increases a lot the probability to draw your hate cards, the only problem is that putting them in the deck means that you have to side in 6 cards instead of 4.

Turn one: Reanimator
Game one: I was on the draw and he puts a second turn Griselbrand on the battlefield. I don't have Stingscourger and I lose.
Game two: (-1 Tinkerer, -3 Gempalm, -1 Sharpshooter, -1 Chieftain, -1 Fanatic. + 4 Leyline,+2 Serum Powder,+ 2 Stingscourger). I have serum Powder in my opening hand, I discard and draw seven cards in wich I find two Leylines. I win.
Game three: I have a Leyline in my opening hand. I win. I later discovered that he sided in Echoing Truth. Fortunately he didn't draw it or I would have probably lost.
1-0.

Turn two: U/W miracle control.
Game one: I was on the play and started with a Fanatic. I beat him down to 14-15 before he found a Terminus. I won in a few turns thanks to ringleaders and ports wich tapped his white mana.
Game two.(-1 Sharpshooter, -1 Fanatic, +1 Tinkerer for the divining top, +1 stinscourger because he can kill an angel token.) This was a really long match. I would have won when i cast a lot of goblins + chieftain but he drew a card with Sensei's divining top and found a Terminus wich he had not prepared with the top. he never cast an Entreat the angels and time finished so i won 1-0. Port have been fantastic also in this match.
2-0

Turn 3: U/W miracle control again.
Game one: I was on the play and started with cavern lackey. I won in 3-4 turns.
Geme two: ( same cards in and out as the previous match). After casting a terminus he plays Humility. I found this card quite a nonsense in his deck because he then did 3-4 angel tokens 1/1. I won after a very long match by beating with my 1/1 goblins. He said that he was waiting to draw one of the three Jace in his deck, and that he played only two Entreat the Angels.
3-0

Turn 4: Show and Tell.
Game one: I was on the draw, I started with Cavern + Lackey , then destroyed one of his lands with wasteland and kept an ancient tomb tapped with Port. Unfortunately he played another tomb and a Lothus Pethal, cast Omniscience through Show and Tell ( I had only a matron to put down),cast Burning Wish for Petals of Insight and won.
Game two: (- 3 Gempalm, -1 Tinkerer, -1 Sharpshooter, - 1 Chieftain, - 1 Piledriver. + 2 Angel of Despair , +2 Confusion in the Ranks, +2 Serum Powder, +1 Stingscourger). I mulled to one but never managed to get Angel or confusion. I lost and he won playing Emrakul. I should have kept my second hand where i had stingscourger, but i was scared by omniscience.
3-1

Turn 5 : Maverick.
Game one: I don't remember much of this game, I think I was on the play and i won.
Game two: (+1 tinkerer, -1 piledriver). He tooks a Jitte with the Mystic. I manage for a few turn to keep that uncharged by finding a Prospector with Matron, but when he plowshares the prospector the game ends. If I had some removals i could have won.
Game three: I kept an hand without Lackey and Vial but with Matron ringleader and tinkerer, so i started only playing a mountain. It Was a very long match because after 3- 4 turns he had 4 Mother of Runes in Play. He didn't play other creatures for a lot of time and when he cast 2 knights of the reliquary it was too late because I had an horde of goblins made by only one activation of an haste krenko that got immediately plowshared. I won in one of the last turns remained shooting damage in his face with siege-gang.
4-1

Turn 6: BUG. This was the last turn and we decided not to draw the match because they were sure to go in top 8.
4-1-1. I couldn't believe it but I went top 8 !

Top 8 : random G/W/B/R deck. I don't know if this deck has a name, i only know he played 4 colors for the cards I saw.
Game one: I was on the play because of better position in the ranking. I started with a lackey and he played a 2/2 Wild Nacatl. Then i wasted his land and he blocked my lackey with his 1/1 wild nacatl both died and i played Vial. He played another land but did nothing, I played a port and kept his land tapped. He didn't draw any other land so I won casting goblins through vial while he did nothing except playing an instant plowshare in response to port.
Game two: I was undecided about siding or not chalices, but I decided to put in only a stingscourger to replace a tinkerer. This match was a bit longer than the other because he had a lot of removals( plowshares, maelstrom pulse, abrupt decay). He didn't play any big creature but only a Deathrite Shaman, a Noble Hierarch, a Dark Confidant and a Grim Lavamancer. Fortunately i manage to slaughter all of his creatures except for the Shaman with an haste Sharpshooter this way : I cast sharpshooter, he kills my warchief in response, but I have also a prospector in play so I sacrifice all my goblins except Sharpshooter to play a Chieftain giving haste and killing his creature. If i didn't do it it would have been more difficult to win because he could start to kill my creatures with the lavamancer.

Top 4 : Belcher
Game one. I was on the draw because of his better ranking and he did 16 1/1 goblins turn one with Empty the Warrens.
Game two. (- 3 Gempalm, -1 Tinkerer, - 1 Stingscourger. +2 Serum Powder, + 3 Chalice of the Void) . I had serum powder in hand, i discarded and draw two chalices and played a chalice at 0. He still manages to do a lot of tokens after 2-3 turns but i kill them with sharpshooter, play the chalice at 1 and win.
Game three: I waited a bit to know if he kept the hand or mull. He kept the hand so I thought it was absolutely necessary to find the Chalices to have a chance. I mulled to three but found nothing. Then he didn't manage to cast empty the warrens or charbelcher and he did a lot of tokens only on turn 5-6. I don't know why he kept the hand but if I also kept mine i would have won. Damn !!

So I ended the tournament winning three fetchlands of my choice. I chose three Wooded Foothills ( one signed). The final match was Charbelcher vs Ant ( I had really no chance to win the tournament anyway) . I think they decided to split the prize wich was 4 Force of will for the first and 4 Polluted Delta for the second, but I'm not sure because I went away.

Last thing to say is that it was not an official tournament and 10 proxies were admitted: I proxied ports and wastelands wich I don't have and it is one of the first times I play with these cards. So I am very surprised I managed to get to top 4, also because other people were a lot more experienced than me. I really felt that Goblins is a very solid deck and I am very very happy. Sorry again for my English, I hope you'll enjoy reading this post.

[ScatmanX]

report
Welcome to The Source man. And congrats on your finish.
Very nice report you wrote. Thanks. Keep em coming.

Have a question regarding Serum Powder: Have you playtested with it more? It looks like it helped you win 2 games. In your testing was it good?
Also, you don't have any kind of creature hate on your SB. Why is that?

EDIT: WOW! Just realized while PMing Sassan that Confusion in the Ranks is an ok SB card against Enchantress and RiP combo deck too! Stealing their Solitary Confinement or Elephant Grass from on, or Energy Field from the other, might be enough to win you the game in one turn. It would be so awesome if that happened once.

[LeoCop 90]

I playtested the list a bit the days before the tournament, and Serum Powder helped me win some matches. In the tournament i surely won the second game against Reanimator and Belcher thanks to Serum Powder; as i wrote before it increases a lot the probability to find your hate cards in game 2 and 3. Sometimes however i mulled very good hands without hate cards because i believed to find the hate having also serum powder in the deck.... and this made me lose the second game against Show and Tell and the third against Belcher. so if you have Serum Powder you can mull aggressively to find your hate, but if you have a very good hand, then KEEP IT.
You also asked why I don't have cards against aggro decks. I simply decided to focus against the unfair matchups, and i chose serum powder to focus MORE against these matchups. If i sided cards against aggro i should have surely cut serum powder and something else.... and i didn't do it because i think that goblins is the best aggro; only zoo can give us hard times, and zoo is not played now. The mirror match could have given me problems,but i was the only goblin player in the tournament.
Generally speaking, vs aggro and control is always an open match, and that's enough for me. But I don't want to have matchups where is impossible to win.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Welcome and congrats LeoCop! Quit apologizing for your English. It's much better than my Italian :wink:

Be wary of mulliganing into oblivion. Goblins can comfortably mull to 5. After that you're looking at an automatic game loss (as you experienced).

[ScatmanX]

Be wary of mulliganing into oblivion. Goblins can comfortably mull to 5. After that you're looking at an automatic game loss (as you experienced).
Proud to say I proved that wrong 5 times in my lifetime already =]

[Ace/Homebrew]

Proud to say I proved that wrong 5 times in my lifetime already =]

Well let's say you're the exception and not the rule :tongue:

[Sasan]

I wanted to say that I will test Confusion in the ranks against RiP combo this Friday and give you the results.
Thanks to Scatman for pointing out this great opportunity ;)

Furthermore I will test RiP vs Leyline vs Relic against Dredge, Reanimator and Canadian :)

[GoboLord]

Well let's say you're the exception and not the rule :tongue:

Oh, that reminds me:



From Dutch Legacy Masters 2011

R2: Sneak Show (2-1)
Game 3: It started becoming exciting. My opponent kep his 7 while I had to mull down to 5 (both hands weren’t able to produce any mana). My 5 cards were: Lackey, Piledriver, SGC (yes! Turn-3-kill!!!!), Matron (yes! Show and Tell helps me find a Stingscourger!), and Wort Boggart Auntie. Hmm, 0 lands again. I decided to keep this hand because of Matron and Lackey (and because 4 cards would most likely mean that I lose anyway). Now guess what I draw on the following 2 turns : Lands!!.
Turn1: Mountain, Lackey, Go.
Turn2: Lackey connects into SGC. Badlands, Piledriver, Go (19 dmg next turn)
Turn3: (my opp had Engineered Explosives for my Tokens). Lackey connects into a Ringleader. Ringleader reveals 3(!) Lackeys. I play 3 Lackey, Go.
My opponent drops a Sphinx of the Steel Wind via Show and Tell, while my Matron tutors a Stingscourger (to be able to deal with other fatties as well).
Luckily my Piledriver has Protection from Sphinxes and my SGC can sacrifice the blocked creature to dodge Lifelink. Good Game!

Oh, sweet memories....

Apart from that I agree with Ace: Although I think that Goblins is the most mulligan-resitant deck in legacy (= the deck that can take mulligan to 5 without any regrets), mulligan to 4 will mean that your opponent will have a very realistic chance on winning.

@ Leo:
Your English is fine! What's important is not that you make correct use of grammar & spelling, but that you make your points clear. The fact that you take your time to write such extended replies make your postings understandable, and that's all that counts.

@ Sasan:
Looking forward to read your results.

[orcanmail]

Combo will often win before you drop your Thalia.

Why either thorns or thalia need to be backed up by 4 chalice of the void in SB

[TheSleeper]

If he drops Omniscience from SnT, then Counfusion will trigger twice. Once the 1st one resolve, the snd one fizzle due to ack of legal targets. If he Stifles one trigger, then the other one resolves, and you get Omnitell. He needs 2 Stifles to keep Omniscience. (and both enchatments come into the battlefiels troguh SnT, not "in response" of anything).
If he drops Emrakul or Grizzlebrand, and you drop Confusion in the Ranks, you can Vial in any goblin, or cast any goblin in your turn, to steal his guy, and then just profit from it. He can Stifle the trigger for 1 goblin, but normally you have more than 1 to play/Vial, or the 1 you have is Mogg Warmarchall, that dodges Stifle by himself.

Are you sure this is correct regarding Omniscience & Confusion? My understanding was as follows:

1) Active Player: Show and Tell
2) <both players choose and then reveal cards, lets say Omniscience & Confusion in the Ranks>
3) Confusion of the Ranks triggers twice. Active players triggers go on the stack 1st. So Omni trigger on stack, then Confusion trigger.
4) Confusion trigger resolves first. That permanent's controller (say the Goblins player) chooses Omniscience. Enchantments are exchanged.
5) Omni trigger then resolves. It's controller (now the Goblins player) has to resolve the trigger, and has to legally target Omniscience. Enchantments are exchanged.
6) TL, DR; permanents reverted back to their owners.

From there on, if someone plays a new creature etc., then normal swap will occur. But Confusion doesn't 'steal' Omniscience off a Show and Tell (it would if you hard cast the Confusion).

[Mindlash]

Are you sure this is correct regarding Omniscience & Confusion? My understanding was as follows:

1) Active Player: Show and Tell
2) <both players choose and then reveal cards, lets say Omniscience & Confusion in the Ranks>
3) Confusion of the Ranks triggers twice. Active players triggers go on the stack 1st. So Omni trigger on stack, then Confusion trigger.
4) Confusion trigger resolves first. That permanent's controller (say the Goblins player) chooses Omniscience. Enchantments are exchanged.
5) Omni trigger then resolves. It's controller (now the Goblins player) has to resolve the trigger, and has to legally target Omniscience. Enchantments are exchanged.
6) TL, DR; permanents reverted back to their owners.

From there on, if someone plays a new creature etc., then normal swap will occur. But Confusion doesn't 'steal' Omniscience off a Show and Tell (it would if you hard cast the Confusion).

Quoted from another thread on the source:



Confusion in the ranks triggers for itself when it enters the battlefield. If your Know and Tell opponent casts Show and Tell and you put in Confusion and he puts in Omniscience, two triggered abilities go on the stack, one for Omniscience entering and one for Confusion entering. Both are on the battlefield and legal targets for each other. The trigger and exchange is also mandatory. Assuming they are the only enchantments on the battlefield the triggered abilities must target the other enchantment.

Now, the targeting restriction for the trigger is "target permanent another player controls that shares a card type with it." This means that no matter whose turn it is, if one of the two triggers resolves, the other will no longer have a legal target (since your opponent now controls Confusion in the Ranks and not "another player") and will fizzle.

If one OR BOTH of the triggers resolves you get Omniscience. The true value of this card is that your opponent needs two Stifle/Trickbind effects to beat it. Also, if you have any creature in play and they put in Griselbrand or Emrakul instead of Omniscience, they still have to Stifle/Trickbind the trigger or be forced to give you their creature (they still get to draw the cards from Griselbrand, but the same is true for Angel of Despair and Oblivion Ring). It has the same weakness as the current answers but with the added bonus of just trumping the most popular of the three options Know and Tell has when they cast Show and Tell (Omniscience, Emrakul, or Griselbrand). Even if they trickbind your trigger on an Emrakul/Griselbrand play, any creature you resolve becomes a Gilded Drake.

Greetings Mindlash

Edit: I hope I get it right, but this is how I do unterstand it:

Player A plays SnT
Player A + B reveal their choices
Player A has Omniscience targetting Confusion going on the stack (only legal target)
Player B has Confusion targetting Omniscience going on the stack (only legal target)
Player B's trigger resolves exchanging Confusion for Omniscience
Player A's trigger tries to resolves put fizzles because Confusion is no longer a legal target (it is now owned by you and not by another player)
Player A passes the turn
Player B delivers a brand of rape normally not available anymore :-P

[ScatmanX]

Furthermore I will test RiP vs Leyline vs Relic against Dredge, Reanimator and Canadian :)
Waiting to read your conclusions.
If RiP is all that jazz, I may end up switching to Rw in the near future.

[LeoCop 90]

Welcome and congrats LeoCop! Quit apologizing for your English. It's much better than my Italian :wink:

Be wary of mulliganing into oblivion. Goblins can comfortably mull to 5. After that you're looking at an automatic game loss (as you experienced).


I understand that mulliganing to less than 5 is probably an auto-lose. I did it only because i thought i had surely lost without the sideboard cards, but unfortunately i was wrong. Aniway against show and tell you can try to mull to less than five because if you get one single angel of despair or confusion in the ranks you have great probabilities to win.

I would also know some opinions about serum Powder in the sideboard. Do anyone think it is a good option or I should simply replace them with other cards ?
And do you think is better to focus against unfair matchups in the sideboard or to do a generic side with answers also to aggro and control decks ?

[ScatmanX]

I would also know some opinions about serum Powder in the sideboard. Do anyone think it is a good option or I should simply replace them with other cards ?
I think is good, but would like to hear from people that playtested more than me.


And do you think is better to focus against unfair matchups in the sideboard or to do a generic side with answers also to aggro and control decks ?
Usually goblins SB consist of 3 Kinesis (creature MU and general utility), 2-3 others (artifact-enchantament hate, Sharpshooter), and the rest, 9-10 card, are for unfair MUs (Reanimator, Dredge, all kinds of Storm, SnT, others). Sometimes you can use generic, but there are people how don't like it, going for a more streamlined SB (like, 4 CotV, 4 LotV, 3 Kinesis, 1 Shoter, 3 Pyroblast). It all depends on what you expect to play against.

[B-rad]

I understand that mulliganing to less than 5 is probably an auto-lose. I did it only because i thought i had surely lost without the sideboard cards, but unfortunately i was wrong. Aniway against show and tell you can try to mull to less than five because if you get one single angel of despair or confusion in the ranks you have great probabilities to win.

I would also know some opinions about serum Powder in the sideboard. Do anyone think it is a good option or I should simply replace them with other cards ?
And do you think is better to focus against unfair matchups in the sideboard or to do a generic side with answers also to aggro and control decks ?

Serum Powder seems a little loose to me. It's probably good against belcher and storm but I don't like the idea of removing your hand from the game as you might nug some of your silver bullets that are important in a lot of matchups. As far as SBing goes, I usually am one to just cross my fingers and hope I don't face storm or belcher. I like having SB hate for SnT decks as you have a much better chance of beating them then the aforementioned 2 decks.

[jrw1985]

Serum Powder seems a little loose to me. It's probably good against belcher and storm but I don't like the idea of removing your hand from the game as you might nug some of your silver bullets that are important in a lot of matchups. As far as SBing goes, I usually am one to just cross my fingers and hope I don't face storm or belcher. I like having SB hate for SnT decks as you have a much better chance of beating them then the aforementioned 2 decks.

Normally I'd agree with you that Serum Powder isn't a great SB card, but you gotta look at it the context of the SB. He is running....

Side Deck:
Artifacts(5):
- 3 Chalice of the Void
- 2 Serum Powder
Enchantments(6):
- 4 Leyline of the Void
- 2 Confusion in the Ranks
Creatures(4):
- 1 Goblin Tinkerer
- 1 Stingscourger
- 2 Angel of Despair

If his SB was running Pyrokinesis, Relic of progenitus, and REB then Serum Powder would pretty much suck. He would be losing potentially necessary cards in order to draw marginal but flexible sideboard cards. But he's not running medium-powered, flexible SB cards. He's running hosers for specific MUs. He doesn't really care what cards he loses because he just wants to get to a Chalice, Leyline, or SnT card. Since that's the case, Serum Powder seems pretty awesome.

I can't say I disagree with his strategy too much either. I've always felt that if a Goblins MD is built to beat fair decks then the sideboard can work on the Unfair MUs in the Meta. Mav, Thresh, Miracle, Stoneblade, BUG Control: none of these need much SB space or any. Dredge, Reanimator, Storm, SnT: These are the ones you Need hate to beat consistently.

I think I'd actually like his SB to look more like this...

- 3 Chalice of the Void
- 3 Serum Powder
- 3 Leyline of the Void
- 1 Confusion in the Ranks
- 2 Angel of Despair
- 1 Goblin Tinkerer
- 1 Stingscourger
- 1 Pyrokinesis

This gives him 6 SB cards against each of the bad MUs: Dredge/Storm/SnT; 3 hate cards- 3 Serum Powder. And it gives him a Pyro against creature heavy MUs.

I think I need to play around with SP sideboards, maybe do a little goldfishing tonight just to see how SP affects mulligans and how the game plays out from there.

[ScatmanX]

I think I need to play around with SP sideboards, maybe do a little goldfishing tonight just to see how SP affects mulligans and how the game plays out from there.
I'd like to see the results of that too.

Meanwhile, back on Omnitell.
Tested 35 games today with a Rw list, with 3 Thalia MD, having 2 Confusion, 1 O.Ring, 1 Serum Powder, 2 Seal of Cleansing.
Won 11, losing 5 on the play. Won 10, losing 9 on the draw. This might be a little more accurate than my last sample.
Serum Powder was great in 3 games, leading my mull to a win, while a mull into a loss, and me keeping 2 hands with it, and drawing it twice midgames, being irrelevant.
Seal of Cleansing won with the ETB trick 5 games. Was countered twice and Stifled twice (resulting into a loss).
O.Ring won 4 games, being Stifle once (resulting into a loss).
Confusion this time showed up 8 times, and I lost 3 games after it landed (as opposed to 0 on my last testing), once to double stifle, once to opponent getting Emrakul and me being unable to cast any creature, once to the trigger getting stifled my turn, and me being anihhilated on the next one.
Thalia was awesome, and helped in tons of matchs. Couldn't really count because, sometimes I won because of her alon, sometimes with Port helping, sometimes with Waste, sometimes it just bought me 1-2 turns and I drew a O.Ring or Confusion.
Rishadan Port was also great, winning/helping in 5+games (ran 2 on the list)
Karakas (use 1) was usefull once, to bounce Thalia in response to Pyroclasm.
Stingscourger won me 1 game.
1 Game won by purely racing (he managed to SnT Grizzle T3, but was too late)
1 Game was won without hate, but with double Port + Waste.
I mulled 23 times, opponent mulled 12.


The results were a little better with this list. Thalia being additional hate is great.
Still, you're almost never going to win without any kind of hate. Don't try to race them. They are faster. And Pyroclasm may fuck you up too.
Jrw experimental SB might be a good place to start further testing.

Tired as hell from doing all this now. Good night.

[jrw1985]

@ScatmanX
Thank you for the excellent insight.

Questions :
What Seal of Cleansing ETB trick? Do you mean in conjunction with CitR? Because Seal doesn't have an ETB trigger...

Should Seal of Cleansing just be O-Ring 2-3?

[Barbed Blightning]

Or with orings trigger on the stack. I imagine seal also helps against stoneblade too

[Sasan]

I talked with Scatman last night and he told me that the Seal is the following one:
Play Seal turn two. When SNT is played bring a goblin with ETB trigger in play. Then the trigger will go on stack. You can now sacrifice Seal and Omiscience is destoyed before the player can play spells with it :)

[jrw1985]

I talked with Scatman last night and he told me that the Seal is the following one:
Play Seal turn two. When SNT is played bring a goblin with ETB trigger in play. Then the trigger will go on stack. You can now sacrifice Seal and Omiscience is destoyed before the player can play spells with it :)

I dig it. Seal seems like a pretty natural fit for a goblins sb. It's proactive, can be activated for free, kills what we need it to (moat, dueling grounds, BS, jitte, omni, ensnaring bridge, top).

[ScatmanX]

I talked with Scatman last night and he told me that the Seal is the following one:
Play Seal turn two. When SNT is played bring a goblin with ETB trigger in play. Then the trigger will go on stack. You can now sacrifice Seal and Omiscience is destoyed before the player can play spells with it :)
Thanks.

@Jon: I'm testing Seal because:
- Same color as Thalia and RiP
- Is a 2cc card, which is great for the curve and faster than the 3cc options, specially if you take Thalia in consideration.
- Works instant speed without needing to hold your mana up.
- Can be deployed earlier than Conterbalance.
- Can prevent a Top flip that woul Miracle something on your turn.
- If on the battlefield, can destroy an Omniscience from SnT if you SnT any creature with a ETB ability (as fast as your T2)
- You can hold it in your hand if you don't want the opponent to find out you're playing it.
Still, just testing.

[Cleston]

Thanks.

@Barbed Blightning: I'm testing Seal because:
- Same color as Thalia and RiP
- Is a 2cc card, which is great for the curve and faster than the 3cc options, specially if you take Thalia in consideration.
- Works instant speed without needing to hold your mana up.
- Can be deployed earlier than Conterbalance.
- Can prevent a Top flip that woul Miracle something on your turn.
- If on the battlefield, can destroy an Omniscience from SnT if you SnT any creature with a ETB ability (as fast as your T2)
- You can hold it in your hand if you don't want the opponent to find out you're playing it.
Still, just testing.

seal of cleansing seems an interesting out for engineered plague, as well, even if half your board is already plagued away.

about serums powder: I'm running some numbers on it, and while I don't have some results to show so far, it does seem to increase the odds of finding whatever it is you need very much, the problem would be opening space for it, I guess.

tonight I'll finally make my debut on legacy tourneys, after months of readings, testings and theories... my sideboard is far from ideal, and I don't have the playset of ports I wished for, but anyway, shall be fun. will let you know.

[Chatto]

@ ScatmanX:

A couple of pages ago I asked Gobolord if Disenchant would be valid option with a white splash. I didn't get any reply on that on, but you seemed to be happy with SoC. Would you consider Disenchant over SoC? I haven't encountered any Counterbalance-based decks in the Netherlands for a long time... Just question, for I would like to keep the element of surprise.

[ScatmanX]

@ ScatmanX:

A couple of pages ago I asked Gobolord if Disenchant would be valid option with a white splash. I didn't get any reply on that on, but you seemed to be happy with SoC. Would you consider Disenchant over SoC? I haven't encountered any Counterbalance-based decks in the Netherlands for a long time... Just question, for I would like to keep the element of surprise.
Disenchant do give you the element of surprise, but I don't like the fact that you need to keep 1W open to have that surprise. If you plan on casting it your turn, Seal do the same thing. Also Seal is more resilient to discard, and I tend to find quite a lot of Esper/BW Stoneforge around here. I also like Seal being a 2cc permanent too, because it helps on your curve. On the other hand, Seal can be Vindicated or Pernicious Deeded or Stifled or Exploded, whereas Disenchant cannot. Still, I guess that, for me, what makes Seal a little better, is the interaction with Omniscience, and being a 2cc permanent. Disenchant, as K.Grip, Ancient Grudge and others, are all options to consider.

[Chatto]

Thanks for the reply :-)

[jrw1985]

seal of cleansing seems an interesting out for engineered plague, as well, even if half your board is already plagued away.

about serums powder: I'm running some numbers on it, and while I don't have some results to show so far, it does seem to increase the odds of finding whatever it is you need very much, the problem would be opening space for it, I guess.

tonight I'll finally make my debut on legacy tourneys, after months of readings, testings and theories... my sideboard is far from ideal, and I don't have the playset of ports I wished for, but anyway, shall be fun. will let you know.

Rumble, young Man, rumble.

[Sasan]

@Scatman: Can you please Test Seal vs Eper Blade? Would love an analysis from you :-)

[ScatmanX]

@Scatman: Can you please Test Seal vs Eper Blade? Would love an analysis from you :-)
Next week. This weekend want to try Rw version vs Reanimator, Dredge and, if have time, maybe Maverick.

[B-rad]

I guess if all else fails you can drop seal off SnT and hope they just have Emrakul and not Gbrand

[ScatmanX]

I guess if all else fails you can drop seal off SnT and hope they just have Emrakul and not Gbrand
?
Then you die to a 15/15 Spagheti.

[Cleston]

?
Then you die to a 15/15 Spagheti.

a wild pastafarianist appears!

anyway, just so I don't go offtopic, follows the (weird) sideboard I could manage for tonight:

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Angel of Despair
1 Krosan Grip
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Why so many 2-ofs and singletons? Cause I still don't have the playsets, that's why (much of the stuff I ordered hasn't arrived yet).

My main splashes for 2 Badlands and 2 Taigas with 6 fetches, since I opted out of the white splash this time. Besides, I set aside the discard suite I was planning on using (4 cabal therapies, to go with my war marshalls).

Is any particular card of interest?

[LeoCop 90]

Serum Powder seems a little loose to me. It's probably good against belcher and storm but I don't like the idea of removing your hand from the game as you might nug some of your silver bullets that are important in a lot of matchups. As far as SBing goes, I usually am one to just cross my fingers and hope I don't face storm or belcher. I like having SB hate for SnT decks as you have a much better chance of beating them then the aforementioned 2 decks.

I think these are two different methods of sideboarding, both valid. You can run cards to improve fair matchups you can already win, and cross your finger not to play against impossible matchups ( like storm or belcher), or you can run cards against the unfair matchups to have some chances to win,and fight the fair matchups only with your main deck.Serum Powder can be useful only with the second method.
Anyway if you don't want to only cross your finger against belcher or storm, a good option is Mindbreak trap. I considered to run it instead of Chalice of the Void, but I opted for the chalice because is good also against Burn and Elves.

Regarding the sideboard suggested by jrw ( 3 serum Powder, 3 Leyline, 3 angel of despair), I initially thought of building my side this way, but then i realized that the card i want to see is not serum Powder, but Angel or Leyline. I think the real-hate card should always remain a 4-of, while serum powder is only a method to find it.

[angel882]

I think these are two different methods of sideboarding, both valid. You can run cards to improve fair matchups you can already win, and cross your finger not to play against impossible matchups ( like storm or belcher), or you can run cards against the unfair matchups to have some chances to win,and fight the fair matchups only with your main deck.Serum Powder can be useful only with the second method.
Anyway if you don't want to only cross your finger against belcher or storm, a good option is Mindbreak trap. I considered to run it instead of Chalice of the Void, but I opted for the chalice because is good also against Burn and Elves.

Regarding the sideboard suggested by jrw ( 3 serum Powder, 3 Leyline, 3 angel of despair), I initially thought of building my side this way, but then i realized that the card i want to see is not serum Powder, but Angel or Leyline. I think the real-hate card should always remain a 4-of, while serum powder is only a method to find it.

It's true that you want your hate card instead of Serum Powder, but you can count Serum Powder as a one of your hate card. It's almost the same thing when you have E.Tutor sidebord. Now you can play less copies of those hate cards because SP allows you you "tutor" those hate cards by mulliganing. I think on those unfair MU it's irrelevant if you have to remove your hand because you really need those hate cards.

[B-rad]

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/545485_10151274735376240_1123969576_n.jpg

look what i got!

[Sasan]

Great Foil Brad :)

[max_goblin]

It's true that you want your hate card instead of Serum Powder, but you can count Serum Powder as a one of your hate card. It's almost the same thing when you have E.Tutor sidebord. Now you can play less copies of those hate cards because SP allows you you "tutor" those hate cards by mulliganing. I think on those unfair MU it's irrelevant if you have to remove your hand because you really need those hate cards.

I dont see as a tutor, more like it make your chance to find your SB for x times, where x is the number of cards you will draw. Its worst than a tutor because a good hand with a tutor is still a good hand with a tutor, in this case you can "muligan" again and find a bad hand with your answer. Ok, the converse is also true.. but that dont make easy to find your tutor.

Is true that you could run 4 serum powder, and 1 of each hate card, but even if this would give more options the risk dont sound worth to me. Its too much of a lottery and you can lose good goblins in the process. This is my opinion, but I really like the tests people do here, and how accurate they are, so if anyone is testing this, keep on.

My SB is like this now:

3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Anti SnT (I am trying different cards, like angel, O-ring, now I am testing trinisphere because it is also good agains some combos, confusing ranks is my next =] )

I found that here where I play, we need at least 5 cards for answering Reanimate, the relics are also good against goyfs, and cage helps a lot against reanimate, snapcaster and dredge. I use 2 needle because it really helps a lot in different games, can stop tampo, deed, 50% of maverick..
But I will change it soon, I see now that I need some answers to enchantments..

[If you find any errors in my phrases, please let me know]

Cya.

[Cleston]

here's a brief report from my tourney last night. finished 3-2, 5th out of 18, in the money.

1st round:
1: he reanimates griselbrand turn 2, elesh norn turn 3.
2: i cannot find leyline, but i find a good strong aggressive hand and go for it. siege gang puts him dead on the board unless he plays a sweeper, so he elesh norns me next turn. I didn't overextend, though, so i could still matron for stingscourger and win several turns later. testing with my reanimator friend helped a lot, since i knew i could grind against a reanimator really well. he also had troubles finding more reanimation spells late game (i am pretty sure i saw no animate dead at all, and reanimate would actually kill him). a key mistake a did in this match was trying to go for chalice of the void for 2 instead of going for the kill with a warchief, with my opponent at one life. for my surprise, he could still pay five mana for a force of will... ;)
3: leyline comes into play, rishadan and wasteland run the distance in the control role, he never finds two mana for the bounce spell.
2-1

lesson learned: reanimator won't side out force of will post board, while i thought he would definitely... what do you guys think?

2nd round:
1: cabal therapy for lackey double hits and buys him loads of turns. he puts a bunch of jund land into play, abrupt decay some of my stuff, dreadres other stuff, but i eventually win. the only relevant card i saw was olivia voldaren.
2: i side in 2 pithing needles and 2 slaughter games, though i was not sure what to name, having seen only removals from his deck. i know he was up to something, so decided to try anyway. my initial hand had 2 pithing needles and a vial. i go with vial turn one, he misses the cabal therapy on lackey. turn 2 i pass with incinerator mana up. turn 3 i decide to try something with my first needle and see his reaction. I name liliana of the veil. he replies with "very well thought, but i left her on the sideboard". what a weird pile... anyway, this time he finds a veteran explorer for the ramp on the flashback of cabal therapy, and proceeds to bring into play huntmasters of the fells and olivia voldaren. the grind was totally not in my favor. slaughter games never showed up.
3: i remove the needles, and mulligan into an aggressive hand with a slaughter games. i start on the aggressive role, but as it is, he actually had a damnation to clear my board. i buy my second copy of slaughter gammes and decide to name olivia voldaren with the first, removing 2 copies from his deck, and actually understanding what the whole pile was about for the first time. it is a jund nic fit, of sorts. anyway, next turn a slaughter games removes 4 huntmasters of the fells from his deck, and that was about it. the only relevant creatures still in his deck where kitchen finks.

2-1

lesson learned: my meta proved to be rather innovative and based on fair decks, since this guy manages to go 4-1, losing only this round against me. also, slaughter games bought me this win, while cranial wouldn't be of any help, since his key spells were not in the graveyard, and once hitting the board would put the match in his favor.

3nd round:
1: he is on the play, opens with double mother of runes, stone forge, batterskull, sword of fire and ice...
2: i mulligan to a hand of 3 lackeys, mountain, wasteland and chieftain. i lose. i open with mountain lackey go, he plays a mom and passes. i attack, he trades, i waste his savannah and play another lackey. he plays land, mom and passes. i attack with lackey and he trades, then i play a third lackey. he plays a forest, zenits for dryad arbor and passes. i drew a pyrokinesis, and i think here is where i lost the match: i remove his lone arbor to connect with lackey, dropping a warchief. he plays stone forge and runs the distance.

0-2

lesson learned: whoever said maverick is a good matchup, either i am doing something really wrong, or these lists i face are not standard. besides, my board needs to be more prepared to that matchup, as this guy seems to be the best player around, and managed to get a 5-0.

4th round:
1: he mulls to five, i cavern for lackey, he shrugs. i see only brainstorms and ponder and flooded strand, and wasteland prevents him from going to the second drop i put him on UW miracle control, he gives up the game to see more of my deck.
2: i side in needle, grip, chalice... but he opens with double delver. my incinerators in the sideboard were drastically missed. krosan grip could remove his jitte, but it committed all of my lands to do so, and i couldnt develop a board at all with double delver flying on my head.
3: i'm on the play, but my aggressive start of cavern lackey cannot pass trought the vapor snag and snapcaster dynamic duo.

1-2

lesson learned: i corrupted my whole deck on a rather fair matchup assuming he was on UW miracles. assumption fail. guess the correct pattern would be to side nothing at all...

5th round:
1: he mulls to 4, i lackey and waste him out of the game. the colors i see are R, U and G. I put him on some kind of slow RUG.
2: i side in chalices and needles. he mulls to six and keeps, while i keep an aggressive hand with a chalice. i start with lackey and follow up with a chalice of the void for one on turn two. it resolves, and i feel pretty confident about the match. my opponent play nothing and i win. after the game ended i asked: what were you up to? he shows me a hand of 3 terastodons, double spirit guide, and so on, having found no cascade spell at all, for the whole match.

2-0

lesson learned: i definitely should be suspicious about him not pondering or brainstorming or bolting me. now that i think of it, i see that my opponent resolved not a single spell for the whole match. i playtested against a list of hypergenesis for a whole night once, and now that it materializes itself in front of me i can't even notice it. still, won the match, but had he found a cascade spell the story would be different.





so, my takeaway points from this first experience on legacy:

- green splash was disappointing. krosan grip wouldn't have helped me on the matches it was needed, even if i had more of it, since it is so damn expensive. either that, or i was the one doing it wrong. tin street is okay, though, and i still don't see myself playing tuktuk scrapper. not sure...

- it seems my meta is based on fair decks, though i could spot a TES player. i assume (though i am really bad on assumptions, it seems) that the black splash is promising

- i need to improve my play and my board against maverick, since this seems to be the deck that has been winning every week there. he is a really good player and plays a really good build, and makes no mistake at all. i could watch him play last week on a scouting visit to that store, and i saw a toolbox of answers with enlightened tutor in his board

- i need to improve my perception of what my opponent is up to. having known legacy only by reading lists over the internet (including this forum), i couldn't not understand what was going on 3 out of 5 times. worse than that, i quickly put my opponents on a deck they weren't piloting at all. guess this can only be solved by playing more, getting to know the people that go there, and so on.

- the other goblin player of the store seems to be doing really well with an 4-instigator 4-moxes mono-red build.

- i'm am sold on rishadan port. along with wasteland, it just wins you games against stuff. it seemed to be really unneffective against other stufff, though, so the quantity seems to be the puzzle.




finally, the list:

4 caverns
4 wastes
3 mountains
2 taiga
2 badlands
4 bloodstained mire
2 arid mesa
2 rishadan port

20 core (lackey, matron, warchief, ringleader, aether vial)

4 incinerator
3 mogg war marshall
3 goblin chieftain
2 krenko
1 goblin piledriver
1 siege-gang commander
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 tin-street hooligan
1 stingscourger

sideboard
4 leyline of the void
2 chalice of the void
2 pithing needle
2 slaughter games
1 angel of despair
1 krosan grip
1 pyrokinesis
1 stingscourger
1 tin-street hooligan

[dsck]

Im fairly sure you should board lackeys out against Maverick.

Why do you have Slaughter Games in your sideboard? No Tuk-Tuk Scrapper or any anti-artifact goblin maindeck?

[Asgar]

I see myself loosing over and over to Maverick, too. I was winning a lot more before cavern of souls, when i was maindecking 3 Warren Weiding and a basic swamp and SBing Perish when they hadn't thalia.

I would love to hear a tech in deckbuilding or playing, that makes this matchup better without ruining the other ones.

[Cleston]

Im fairly sure you should board lackeys out against Maverick.

Why do you have Slaughter Games in your sideboard? No Tuk-Tuk Scrapper or any anti-artifact goblin maindeck?

my artifact hate was tin-street hooligan, i run one MD and one SB, as well as a single krosan grip.

I decided to try slaughter games because A can't be countered B doesn't need a card in the graveyard to work. people are generally afraid of 4 mana costed spells, but during playtesting it was often that i could muster enough lands for such spells, by playing with 23. for sure you wouldn't bring this in against stufff like TES and belcher, which are some of our worse matches, and one would say it isn't wort at all just for that, but as you can see from the list extra copies of golden spells were not available yesterday...

as for lackey, i tried to keep them on the play. on the draw, though, i would side them out. would you guys side them out on the play as well? i still think it is a relevant card, that must be answered. if i did get a gempalm at any of the 3 draws i had, i would be free to connect without a trade. seems like a good situation for me.

[Cleston]

I see myself loosing over and over to Maverick, too. I was winning a lot more before cavern of souls, when i was maindecking 3 Warren Weiding and a basic swamp and SBing Perish when they hadn't thalia.

I would love to hear a tech in deckbuilding or playing, that makes this matchup better without ruining the other ones.

I've got a playset of perishes coming, but time and again I've found the problems to be mother of runes + stoneforge mystic.

[Pee-Dee-2]

Dear guys, I'm back ;)

#1: I also won't attack. Prospector is one of the best Goblin in this MU and he always will block it!

#2: Have a look at #1. Is in this early game the Squad so relevant? I also won't attack and play things like MWM or MWM + Piledriver to attack and cast Squad next turn. He won't play anything other than Top oder Brainstorm, because he will put Batterskull otb. So he has one blocker while he will have 2 attackers.

[ScatmanX]

as for lackey, i tried to keep them on the play. on the draw, though, i would side them out. would you guys side them out on the play as well? i still think it is a relevant card, that must be answered. if i did get a gempalm at any of the 3 draws i had, i would be free to connect without a trade. seems like a good situation for me.
I do the same. Keep them in if on the Play, side them out on the Draw.
Your second game against Maverick, I guess your mistake cost you the game. Attacking into Mom was right both times. When he Zenithed for Arbor though, and you had only Kinesis, and not much else, you should have passed. There was not a single card the Mav player could have cast that the Kinesis wouldn't be able to take out, in taking the Arbor along with it (unless he had 2 lands on the yard already, but still). Doing that 2-1 on yourself, to kill a 1/1, and getting diminishing gains, was not worth at all. You don't need to play Kinesis the first opportunity you get. It's usually better to hold on to it, to get maximum value.

Your 'lessons learned' were quite good, and you should keep doing that. Acknowledging the mistakes you made is the 1st step to stop making them.

[Ace/Homebrew]

here's a brief report from my tourney last night.

The Hypergenesis player had no chance against you even if he had a cascade spell... Terastodon can only hit non-creature permanents... and all of yours but Vial are creatures. Plus if you're holding a Matron or Ringleader, you get to find your extras and put them into play off of Hypergenesis.
So he would have had 3 huge vanilla dudes and no hand and you'd have had an overwhelming swarm fit for attacking or chump blocking.
Also CotV at 0 ruins him.

Against fair decks, Krenko is your "I win" button.
Against Maverick I would recommend a more control route. If they have blockers to kill your Lackeys then don't attack. Once you get Krenko online you'll be glad you had the extra bodies. If they have Mom but no clock you have nothing to worry about. You can also save Pyrokinesis for your alpha strike and target the Moms on board. They'll tap them to save them but then they're already used up and you can sneak by with your horde.

[ScatmanX]

The Hypergenesis player had no chance against you even if he had a cascade spell... Terastodon can only hit non-creature permanents... and all of yours but Vial are creatures. Plus if you're holding a Matron or Ringleader, you get to find your extras and put them into play off of Hypergenesis.
So he would have had 3 huge vanilla dudes and no hand and you'd have had an overwhelming swarm fit for attacking or chump blocking.
Also CotV at 0 ruins him.
Just to make it clear: If you put Matron into the battlefield from Hypergenisis, you'll not be able to search for your goblin until Hypergenesis resolve, so you won't be able to put the goblin you search with Matron into the battlefield from Hypergenesis.
A spell or trigger can only beggin resolving after all the effects from the last spell or trigger finishes resolving.
(guess it's the same thing you said, but a little more detailed)

[jrw1985]

Dear guys, I'm back ;)

#1: I also won't attack. Prospector is one of the best Goblin in this MU and he always will block it!

#2: Have a look at #1. Is in this early game the Squad so relevant? I also won't attack and play things like MWM or MWM + Piledriver to attack and cast Squad next turn. He won't play anything other than Top oder Brainstorm, because he will put Batterskull otb. So he has one blocker while he will have 2 attackers.


Whoa! Anachronism post!


my artifact hate was tin-street hooligan, i run one MD and one SB, as well as a single krosan grip.

I decided to try slaughter games because A can't be countered B doesn't need a card in the graveyard to work. people are generally afraid of 4 mana costed spells, but during playtesting it was often that i could muster enough lands for such spells, by playing with 23. for sure you wouldn't bring this in against stufff like TES and belcher, which are some of our worse matches, and one would say it isn't wort at all just for that, but as you can see from the list extra copies of golden spells were not available yesterday...

as for lackey, i tried to keep them on the play. on the draw, though, i would side them out. would you guys side them out on the play as well? i still think it is a relevant card, that must be answered. if i did get a gempalm at any of the 3 draws i had, i would be free to connect without a trade. seems like a good situation for me.

Slaughter Games: I totally see why you'd want to play it, but I don't think it's playable. In fact, i know it's not a competitive card for a Goblins deck. It's a card you want to use against Combo, but it's too slow to fight combo. It's also too slow to stop sideboard hate cards. AND it doesn't do anything against a spell that has actually Resolved and is affecting the Game State.

Slaughter Games has a cool effect, but it doesn't actually do anything in a game of magic. The only deck i see it being even slightly playable against is Miracles, and that's not a problem MU anyway. Stop the Slaughter.

Maverick: Against Maverick I want to side in removal, whether that's Pyrokinesis, Anarchy, Perish, whatevs. I want to do this because Maverick is a creature based deck, so you need to control their board position to win. The first thing to side out to make room for more removal is Thalia. I run Thalia in my list and I ahve no interest in seeing her against Maverick. The second thing I'll side out is Piledriver. This is because between Mom, Maze, and SoFaI they have many ways of chumping Piledriver and keeping you from getting value out of him. After Piledrivers I would side out utility goblins or one Gempalm. I run 4 Gempalms and 1 Sharpshooter. Sharpshooter can be great against Mav, but it can also be a dud so i feel comfortable siding him out for something I know will get me value, like Anarchy. And I'm OK with siding out 1 Gempalm for another piece of removal because I'm lowering my goblin count by siding in removal, so Gempalm is a little less necessary/effective. My point here is that I'd side out all of these before I would consider siding out Lackeys. Thalia, Piledriver, utility goblins, 1 Gempalm.

If you ever find yourself facing a situation where you can kill their Mom with a Lackey, do it. I will 1:1 my Lackey with one of my opponent's creatures all day every day. Because my opponent can't draw cards like I can. The more cards we play, the further ahead I get. Really the only thing to fear is equipment in this MU, and if you just sandbag a Tuktuk or whatevs you can't lose. Just play some guys, chump, use your Gempalms in response to their Mom activations, resolve and activate a Krenko, or vial in a hasty Sharpshooter and clear their board.

[jrw1985]

After a month and a half without playing I finally attended another tourney yesterday. I played a Rw build with 3 Thalia Md, 2 Port, 1 Karakas. Went 1-1-1.

Drew with UW Miracles 1-1. Thalia was awkward and I whiffed on a Ringleader G2. Probably could have been a little more aggressive.

Lost to Affinity 0-2. Played first both games, had T1 Lackey both games. Couldn't get board position or removal when I needed it either game. Also ran into Etched Champion both games, which tends to be difficult to deal with.

Won against TES 2-1. I mulled to Thalia G1 and won. I mulled to a no land hand with 6 but a Chalice G2. Couldn't draw the lands I needed to actually put pressure on. G3 I played double Leyline o Void T0. He kept a durdling hand with Ponders and Mana and couldn't find a tutor in time. I asked afterwards if Leyline was relevant. He said No. I believe him.

[ScatmanX]

Since we were on the sideboarding subject, what do you guys usually side out against Merfolk for Pyrokinesis. Taking Jim Davis list for exemple:

4 Aether Vial


4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan


4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Pyrokinesis

[B-rad]

Since we were on the sideboarding subject, what do you guys usually side out against Merfolk for Pyrokinesis. Taking Jim Davis list for exemple:

4 Aether Vial

4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan

4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Pyrokinesis

I usually bring in ReBs and not pyrokenises. Boarding out big stings hooligan and a war marshall

[Lord Gibbo]

I usually bring in ReBs and not pyrokenises.

Same for me... But I run 3 Pildriver, 3 MWM, 2 Sting and 1 Captain, so I'll side out 1 MWM and 2 sting and leave in TSH cause usually Merfolk sides in 2 Jitte.

[L10]

- 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
- 1 Stingscourger
- 1 Mogg War Marshal
+ 3 REB

Sharpshooter loses value quickly because they have nothing but lords. Stingscourger is not a great removal spell in this MU. I usually keep 2-3 MWM in to power up Gempalm Incinerator. I usually keep in a single TSH to destroy Jitte or Vial. Destroying a Vial can be big because they run a greedy mana-base and can't really afford the tempo loss.

[Asgar]

I would never ever board out shooter against merfolk. With him online your 1/1s and 2/2s trade with their 3/3s and 4/4s, not to mention once you handled the lords (where he helpes a lot) the other 8 creatures are just dead. And it turns of jitte if you shoot your 1/1.

I agree with mwm and scourger, if you play him i would side out chieftain, too (if not, lackey is not overwhelming in this MU, so maybe i would just board them all out instead, exspecially on the draw) for the removel of your choice.

[jrw1985]

I went to a tournament today and only got to play 2 rounds. Went 1-1 then had a bye R3, then was given another bye R4. When I complained they said I had to have another bye or else there would wind up being a re-match somewhere. My options were either to accept the bye or they would just cut the last round off the tournament. There were only 9 players so folks were OK with calling it a day. I was the last person in line to get packs and watched everyone walk away with payouts (since they considered everyone to have won the round that wasn't played, and they paid out like it was a 4-round event). So I go up to get my packs and the dude gives me a look and asks what my record was again. I tell him 2-1, lost R1, won R2, bye R3. He rubs his eyes and tells me there was a mistake in reporting. I was given a L R2 instead of the W. So we actually should have played R4 and they gave away way more packs than they should have. I got my 3 packs for my six $$$ entry fee and winning 1 legitimate match though, so that was cool.

I lost R1 to a cool Reanimator Deck that used Grizz to draw a bunch of cards, then, using free mana artifacts (Petals and Mox), played and sacrificed Children of Korlis to gain the life back, then drew more cards, then used free mana to play and activate another Children of Korlis, going up to like 30 life with 20-some cards in hand, then cast Sickening Dreams for like 20. Woof. I had plenty of great SB and MD cards to beat it so i thought I could get there G2, but despite my 3 MD Thalia and 1 Karakas, and SB 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Chalice of the Void, 1 Tormod's Crypt and 2 Relic of Progenitus (wayyyy too slow, btw) I mulled to 6 into a hand with Vial, Stingscourger, and Port and thought I could go the mana denial route T2 then bounce his Griz T3. He went off T1 instead. Swamp, Dark Ritual, Entomb Grizz, Shallow Grave Grizz, go off.

We played like 4 games for fun afterwards. The first one he mulled to 4 so I won. The second one I had T1 lackey, T2 Thalia. Win! 3rd one he mulled to 5 and I won pretty quick, plus I had hate. 4th he went off like T1 on the play and I lost. 5th I played something sick like T1 Vial, Chalice, T2 Needle, Karakas, T3 Thalia. Pretty sick win there. So post-board I actually went 4-2 against him. Too bad only one of those games counted.

R2 I beat up a Rock deck. Thalia was decent G1. Against decks that just want to play good cards, like Rock does, Thalia really slows them down. I had multiple Lackeys and an Aether vial this game, and he kept throwing his +1 cc removal at Lackey cuz that was a bigger threat to him than Thalia. But paying more for that removal kept him from developing his board. Meanwhile Vial ticked up and he got too far behind. G2 he lead with T1 Dryad Arbor, T2 Maze. I Gempalmed the Arbor and was way ahead the rest of the game. At one point I Stingscourgered a KotR (Vial @ 4, SGC in hand). My next upkeep I put Sting's Echo in the stack, then Vial's counter trigger on the stack, resolved Vial's trigger (Vial @ 5 now), activated it to put SGC in play, sacrificed Stinger for 2 damage. Neat.

Man, I wish I'd gotten to play another round.

In case you're wondering, deck looked like....

4 Lackey
4 Vial
1 Skirk Prospector
3 MWM
2 Piledriver
1 Stinger
3 Thalia
4 Gempalm
4 Warchief
4 Matron
1 Sharpshooter
4 Ringleader
1 Krenko
1 Tuktuk
1 SGC

4 Wasteland
2 Port
2 Plateau
4 Cavern
4 Mountain
1 Karakas
5 Fetch

SB
2 Chalice
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Anarchy
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Seal of Removal
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

Since I have the W splash the Anarchy is pretty pointless, really. I've got Seal if I'm worried about W Enchantments, which was kinda the point of running Anarchy in the first place. So I'd probably take those out for another Seal and another Tormod's Crypt. Relic was too slow for GY hate in the Reanimator/Combo MU. I really like Needle, though. Really really liked Needle. You can make your opponents lose SO MUCH VALUE with it. Aside from turning off Griz it also stops Top and KotR and EE and all that good shit. It's actually a pretty good proactive card.

[orcanmail]

I really like Needle, though. Really really liked Needle. You can make your opponents lose SO MUCH VALUE with it. Aside from turning off Griz it also stops Top and KotR and EE and all that good shit. It's actually a pretty good proactive card.[/QUOTE]

Can anyone list legacy targets for pithing needle as i never know what to name and i think it could really help goblins. It would be REALLY appreciated. Thanks.

[Holly]

Hello green folks,

@ orcanmail
Planeswalker, Thopther foundry, fetches if your opponent has some in play and doesn't use them before you got it into play. Equipment, stoneforge, mutavault if you really need.., explosives, Academy Ruins, mom, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack and the list goes on..


played in a 19 people tournament, 5 rounds of Legacy !
I was running an Instigator-Build, because I wanted to,
3 Instigator
3 SGC
2 Krenko
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Stingscourger
4 Chieftain
usual stuff.
No Warchiefs, no MWM crazy huh?
Instigator won 1 game, helped 1 other and was irrelevant or killed otherwise.
M1 Thopter, Tezzeret, Jace, Leyline, Helm - stuff.
Won 2-1
M2 Mirror 1-2
This did quite suck since I thought I would have the better chance, G1 he wins thanks to Vial & Wastelands, G3 he starts and is one turn faster than I. Still thought I should have won with 2 Sharpshooters (1main & 1 side) and 4 Chieftains..well shit happens.
M3 Deathguy Ale
2-0
M4 Merfolk
Won 2-1, both times thanks to Krenko.
M5 Show n Tell
He has no luck, thus I win.

Well I wanted to play Instigator, I did play Instigator and..probably wont anytime soon ;P. Was cute when it worked but meh.. on the other hand there's quite a lot of combo and 4 Instigator & 4 Piledriver would race them quite good..

[jrw1985]

I really like Needle, though. Really really liked Needle. You can make your opponents lose SO MUCH VALUE with it. Aside from turning off Griz it also stops Top and KotR and EE and all that good shit. It's actually a pretty good proactive card.

Can anyone list legacy targets for pithing needle as i never know what to name and i think it could really help goblins. It would be REALLY appreciated. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Sensei's Divining Top
Maze of Ith
Mother of Ruins
Qazali Pridemage
Griselbrand
Knight of the Reliquary
Grim Lavamancer
Fetchlands
Wastelands
Manlands
Survival of the Fittest
Grindstone
Sneak Attack
Goblin Sharpshooter
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Thoptor Foundry
Engineered Explosives
Pernicious Deed
Karakas
Vampire Hexmage
Coralhelm Commander
Stoneforge Mystic
Umezawa's Jitte
Batterskull
Sword of X and Y
Aether Vial
Mangara
And many many more I'm sure...

[troopatroop]

Lol yeah, Name Survival of the Fittest, Owns that card. xD

[Pee-Dee-2]

Whoa! Anachronism post!
What do you mean?

[andrebonotto]

What do you mean?

He probably means that your reply (about the situation with the possibility of attacking with Skirk Prospector) concerns a subject that was discussed some pages ago and that currently the subject has changed from it to something else.

And since you replied to a question posed in a different "temporality", hence he referred to it as an "anachronism".

:)

[jrw1985]

He probably means that your reply (about the situation with the possibility of attacking with Skirk Prospector) concerns a subject that was discussed some pages ago and that currently the subject has changed from it to something else.

And since you replied to a question posed in a different "temporality", hence he referred to it as an "anachronism".

:)

yup

[raindrainxi]

I know this is in the To-be-tested section of the primer, but has somebody actually tested Battle Squadron against decks packing Moat? I'd test it in coming playtests but couldn't find a copy so I'll proxy. To those who did, can you please share your opinion? Thanks.

[(nameless one)]

I heard Siege-Gang Commander already does that. It is also more flexible.

[LeoCop 90]

Battle Squadron is not a goblin. If it was, you could have put one copy in your sideboard to tutor it with matron. But since its creature type is "ship",you should run 3-4 of them in sideboard to fight moat, and it's simply better to run enchantment hate that can be useful in a lot of matchups.
Moreover,if you want a non-goblin creature with flying, there are a lot of dragons better than battle squadron: first of all Voracious Dragon.

I have a question about Humility. Does this enchantment affect creatures coming into play? For example, if Humility is on the battlefield and I play a Ringleader,can i draw goblins?

[raindrainxi]

Battle Squadron is not a goblin. If it was, you could have put one copy in your sideboard to tutor it with matron.

Luckily , Battle Squadron's oracle text now says Goblin. ;-)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think SGC doesn't fly.

Seriously though, I haven't thought of any disadvantage yet not to try it. Sure, he's dead to removal (STP), but so is Siege Gang.

[karaxu]

Amazing! the oracle text does say that the ship is now a goblin :laugh:
raindrainxi sure knows his goblins!

Back to the topic, it might be a good surprise card, but by the time you are worrying about Moat. They probably have something to remove it. SGC is far better, just throw the goblins in their face.

[Mindlash]

Amazing! the oracle text does say that the ship is now a goblin :laugh:
raindrainxi sure knows his goblins!

Back to the topic, it might be a good surprise card, but by the time you are worrying about Moat. They probably have something to remove it. SGC is far better, just throw the goblins in their face.

I would also tend to use SGC to fight Moat. I also use Krenko and Prospector Main and a Sharpshooter in the SB which is usually enough to fight "Prison Effects". I cannot see much uses for Battle Squadron besides flying over Moat. SGC and Sniper can do "the same" while they are also useful in much more situations.

My current sideboard looks like this and works well for me:
4 Leyline of the Void (can be substituted by various other gravehate but I like LotV most)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Pyrokinesis is in my Maindeck because you see alot of Goblins nowadays and it also make Maverick Game 1 even more ridiculous. And yes, there is no artifact/enchantment removal in my deck. I used to play 2 Anarchy and 1 Tuktuk in my board instead of Confusion, but I never needed the Scrapper (ok it destroyed Steel Hellkite once) or the Anachies (which where there to fight Moat/Dueling Grounds).

I may be cold to Torpor Orb and Humility, but I can live with it these cards see nearly no play in my meta.

Greetings Chris

[ScatmanX]

I may be cold to Torpor Orb

Nothing Tuktuk would be able to do against that eitherway...

[Sasan]

I wrote Scatman a PM with some test results and wanted to repost it here, too as I think that you might be interested:

Rest in Peace

Rest in Peace is great vs RUG, but not better then Relic. They are neraly the same.

Rest in Peace is Good vs Dredge on the Play but bad on the draw. you really hope for a slow hand from them. But that is not the way I want to play magic. You need great answers. Rest in Peace is too expensive with 1CC on the draw.

Rest in Peace is ok vs Reanimator whether on play or draw. They normally take off turn 2-3 - that is fine for rest in peace.

Another issue I had was that sometimes I did not have the white mana ready when needed although I had 10 white mana sources.

Summary: I will have 3 Relics and 1 Grafdiggers Cage as my dedicated GY hate.


Thalia
Tested her against Canadian in 20 Matches and she was never a factor. She took all the removal but therefore could not make an impact. Sometimes I named Soldier with Cavern and it was a mistake as all counter spells against goblins were intact now.

Thalia did nothing spectacular against Omni Tell, Rishadan Ports would have the job done too. They don't care if they cast SNT on Turn 4 or 3. And their cantrips (wish/tutor/brainstorm) is never a problem as they have some turns where they wold do nothing so they brainstorm turn 2 instead of 1 and so on.

Thalia was a bitch against Storm. She won games single handedly.

Thalia slowed down the Miracles player by a turn always and that was good. but this matchup is already in our favor.

Versus Esperblade Thalia was not good. stoneforge is not affected of her.

Thalia was terrible compared to Piledriver/Mogg War Marshal against Maverick, Burn, the Mirror.

I really really missed especially the Piledrivers. with Thalia your deck becomes slower and you get lesser fast kills.

All in all I think that Thalia is not the solution to all our combo problems :( she only shines vs Storm.


What is your opinion?

[GoboLord]

Thalia
Tested her against Canadian in 20 Matches and she was never a factor. She took all the removal but therefore could not make an impact. Sometimes I named Soldier with Cavern and it was a mistake as all counter spells against goblins were intact now.

Thalia did nothing spectacular against Omni Tell, Rishadan Ports would have the job done too. They don't care if they cast SNT on Turn 4 or 3. And their cantrips (wish/tutor/brainstorm) is never a problem as they have some turns where they wold do nothing so they brainstorm turn 2 instead of 1 and so on.

Thalia was a bitch against Storm. She won games single handedly.

Thalia slowed down the Miracles player by a turn always and that was good. but this matchup is already in our favor.

Versus Esperblade Thalia was not good. stoneforge is not affected of her.

Thalia was terrible compared to Piledriver/Mogg War Marshal against Maverick, Burn, the Mirror.

I really really missed especially the Piledrivers. with Thalia your deck becomes slower and you get lesser fast kills.

All in all I think that Thalia is not the solution to all our combo problems :( she only shines vs Storm.


What is your opinion?

I can hardly believe that Thaia has NO impact on Esperblade and RUG Thresh. Both decks MUST get rid of her - neither of them can win through a Thalia on board. On my last tournament I had 3 Thalias in SB simply because I think that she does what Chalice was supposed to do: being good against random decks + RUG Thresh. I decided to replace Chalice with Thalia because of her value against Esperblade.


On a different note:
I'm still riding the "no interaction"-train. Since our deck is already good at fighting countermagic I was looking for something that makes our goblins removal-proof. I want to share and discuss my "research-findings" with you:
* Steely Resolve
* Ghostway
* Dominaria's Judgment

Thoughts?

[ScatmanX]

On a different note:
I'm still riding the "no interaction"-train. Since our deck is already good at fighting countermagic I was looking for something that makes our goblins removal-proof. I want to share and discuss my "research-findings" with you:
* Steely Resolve
* Ghostway
* Dominaria's Judgment

Thoughts?
Against what deck would you want this type of effect?
I don't see me playing with any of those cards (tohugh blinking Ringleader/Matron/SGC should be fun as hell).

[Sasan]

I can hardly believe that Thaia has NO impact on Esperblade and RUG Thresh. Both decks MUST get rid of her - neither of them can win through a Thalia on board. On my last tournament I had 3 Thalias in SB simply because I think that she does what Chalice was supposed to do: being good against random decks + RUG Thresh. I decided to replace Chalice with Thalia because of her value against Esperblade.


On a different note:
I'm still riding the "no interaction"-train. Since our deck is already good at fighting countermagic I was looking for something that makes our goblins removal-proof. I want to share and discuss my "research-findings" with you:
* Steely Resolve
* Ghostway
* Dominaria's Judgment

Thoughts?

Against RUG I certainly agree. She gets the removal package and saves therefore our other goblins.

Concerning Esper I must stress that their key spell is Stoneforge finding and Equipping Skull/Jitte. Removing the Equipment or Stoneforge on the spot is key to victory. I do not see that Thalia helps against that key interaction.

[GoboLord]

Against what deck would you want this type of effect?
I don't see me playing with any of those cards (tohugh blinking Ringleader/Matron/SGC should be fun as hell).

Ghostway and D's Judgment were meant to trick massremoval in forms of Terminus, Pyroclasm and Zealous Persecusion. Steely Resolve was meant to blank spotremoval after I blanked their countermagic. I didnt really have a deck in mind that I would fight with this cards. It's just that I think that there are few things left we should worry about - and (mass-/spot-)removal is one of those things. My intention was to find cards that make our deck even unfairer, even stronger. I even consider playing Brightstone Ritual in the near future. As for Ghostway: I don't think that blinking Goblins is only cute, or fun - it's damn straight awsome.

[Valtrix]

So, with the white splash, has anybody testing running some number of Oblivion Ring in the sideboard? If so, how was it? It fights artifacts and enchantments the way Krosan Grip might, but it also attacks the Show and Tell decks in a way similar to angel of despair, all in one card. Additionally, it can let you side in Thalia for the matchups where she is sorely needed in. I haven't been playing Goblins in a long time, but this seems like it could be an effective boarding strategy to help the matchups that can be pretty abysmal otherwise. Mirror Entity is also a possible matron target somewhere, although I'm not sure if/when you'd really want the entity.

[GoboLord]

So, with the white splash, has anybody testing running 4 Oblivion Ring in the sideboard? It fights artifacts and enchantments the way Krosan Grip might, but it also attacks the Show and Tell decks in a way similar to angel of despair, all in one card. Additionally, it can let you side in Thalia for the matchups where she is sorely needed in. I haven't been playing Goblins in a long time, but this seems like it could be an effective boarding strategy to help the matchups that can be pretty abysmal otherwise.

Yeah, I tested them and they were not nearly as good as they appear to be:

If you want sometrhing against Show and Tell you are better of with Confusuion in the Ranks.
Apart fromn that you'll never find yourself boarding them in - simply because they dont have enough impact in other MUs. Sorcery-Speed is bad against Batterskull. If you want to use O-Ring as a removalspell its just to expensive for that. You might indeed save SB slots with Oblivion RIng, but then again you dont really improve any MU wth it.

[Barbed Blightning]

Ghostway with even two ringleaders or matrons out would crush damn near any opponent you use it against, but I think you're simply improving good matchups at that point (UW control). Sure, it works against 'clasm and -x/-x effects, but those typically hit a turn before Ghostway goes off. It also kills our tokens.

I like Steely Resolve, but it causes a times-old problem this deck has always had: sacrificing power and threat density for resilience. Aether vial gets around this rule because it lets us drop threats in tandem with our mana restrictions. My philosophy when playing the angry green men is that they're all dispensable and if they're not hitting something then they're not doing their job right, and if you have a non-vial, non-land card in hand it better have legs. SB tech obviously varies, but all the stuff I run can be dropped as I go with little mana requirements.

My current SB:
3 Pyrokinesis
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic
2 Anarchy
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Stingscourger (1 main)

I'm working towards the green splash eventually, though. K-grips will replace one p-blast and the anarchy's. I realize I'm soft to storm combo without chalice, but my reasoning is that Thalia decks (Death & Taxes, Maverick) are keeping them out in the cold for a while. On the note of Thalia: she's super-clutch with a mother of runes to back her up, but in this deck she's a no-go. Were she a goblin, I think she's automatically be 4-of, but the issue now is that she disrupts our synergy with the other cards (GRL, Matron) and her effect is not as powerful. Against RUG, I've managed to kick Canadian's ass back over the border many times simply by burying them in card advantage and uncounterable removal. Seriously, with 3-4 MWM and 3-4 GPI in the deck, no Delver will touch you and no goyf or goose will get through. Not to mention SGC and Sharpshooter's damage.

I'm currently fluctuating numbers of "utility goblins" in my list as well. I have 22 lands-- 10 Snow-Covered Mountains, 4 Port, 4 Waste 4 Cavern. I am running the Core, sans 1 SGC. That leaves 17 slots. Thus, I have:

4 GPI
4 MWM
3 Piledriver

1 Chieftain
1 Krenko
1 Prospector
1 Sharpshooter
1 TukTuk
1 Stingscourger

Any thoughts? Currently trying to find the right balance of Stingers and MWMs; the former obviously good for fatties, the latter better for Goyfs and the like. I also picked up a few Winstigators, but idk how I feel about running them.

Finally, someone mentioned something about humility earlier: it affects all creatures in ALL zones, including your hand, library, graveyard and exile. Emrakul never cycles your library from your yard; GPI can't be cycled to burn a dude. Misthollow Griffin doesn't work with food chain more than once.

[orcanmail]

Any thoughts? Currently trying to find the right balance of Stingers and MWMs; the former obviously good for fatties, the latter better for Goyfs and the like. I also picked up a few Winstigators, but idk how I feel about running them.

I run main deck 3 MWM, 2 Stingers, 2 Piledrivers and 2 Winstigators as my 2 drops. Winstigators do cool things with matron and then drop whatever you fetch for the second of the double strike. I found 2 Winstigators enough, so i normally have goblins to drop. Also winstigators have helped me mulligan less as i have 6 lackey effects. I back up winstigators with removal to help them get through, 3 tarfire, 1 mogg fanatic, 4 Gempalms, 2 stingers. i also play chieftains.

if you play winstigators it also makes it harder to run rishadan ports.

effectively you have to play a more aggro mono red build to run winstigators. Perfect to support Krenko actually!

[ScatmanX]

Finally, someone mentioned something about humility earlier: it affects all creatures in ALL zones, including your hand, library, graveyard and exile. Emrakul never cycles your library from your yard; GPI can't be cycled to burn a dude. Misthollow Griffin doesn't work with food chain more than once.
Asked on the Rules thread, because thought this was weird. So:

Humility
Enchantment, 2WW
All creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1.

Creatures are only creatures on the battlefield. In all other zones, they are creature cards. Note the distinction.

[Asthereal]

I realize I'm soft to storm combo without chalice, but my reasoning is that Thalia decks (Death & Taxes, Maverick) are keeping them out in the cold for a while.
Yesterday in the Dutch Open National Championship, 7 decks in top 16 were Storm combo. Don't count too much on Storm being cold to the stuff out there right now. :wink:

[vennie]

Ghostway with even two ringleaders or matrons out would crush damn near any opponent you use it against, but I think you're simply improving good matchups at that point (UW control). Sure, it works against 'clasm and -x/-x effects, but those typically hit a turn before Ghostway goes off. It also kills our tokens.

I like Steely Resolve, but it causes a times-old problem this deck has always had: sacrificing power and threat density for resilience. Aether vial gets around this rule because it lets us drop threats in tandem with our mana restrictions. My philosophy when playing the angry green men is that they're all dispensable and if they're not hitting something then they're not doing their job right, and if you have a non-vial, non-land card in hand it better have legs. SB tech obviously varies, but all the stuff I run can be dropped as I go with little mana requirements.

My current SB:
3 Pyrokinesis
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic
2 Anarchy
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Stingscourger (1 main)

I'm working towards the green splash eventually, though. K-grips will replace one p-blast and the anarchy's. I realize I'm soft to storm combo without chalice, but my reasoning is that Thalia decks (Death & Taxes, Maverick) are keeping them out in the cold for a while. On the note of Thalia: she's super-clutch with a mother of runes to back her up, but in this deck she's a no-go. Were she a goblin, I think she's automatically be 4-of, but the issue now is that she disrupts our synergy with the other cards (GRL, Matron) and her effect is not as powerful. Against RUG, I've managed to kick Canadian's ass back over the border many times simply by burying them in card advantage and uncounterable removal. Seriously, with 3-4 MWM and 3-4 GPI in the deck, no Delver will touch you and no goyf or goose will get through. Not to mention SGC and Sharpshooter's damage.

I'm currently fluctuating numbers of "utility goblins" in my list as well. I have 22 lands-- 10 Snow-Covered Mountains, 4 Port, 4 Waste 4 Cavern. I am running the Core, sans 1 SGC. That leaves 17 slots. Thus, I have:

4 GPI
4 MWM
3 Piledriver

1 Chieftain
1 Krenko
1 Prospector
1 Sharpshooter
1 TukTuk
1 Stingscourger

Any thoughts? Currently trying to find the right balance of Stingers and MWMs; the former obviously good for fatties, the latter better for Goyfs and the like. I also picked up a few Winstigators, but idk how I feel about running them.

Finally, someone mentioned something about humility earlier: it affects all creatures in ALL zones, including your hand, library, graveyard and exile. Emrakul never cycles your library from your yard; GPI can't be cycled to burn a dude. Misthollow Griffin doesn't work with food chain more than once.

I can tell u 1 thing, combo is not nearly as dead as u seem to think it should be. Just last sunday we had the open dutch legacy champs. about 120 people showed up and we had 4 storm combo decks top 8 with some more in T16. One ended up second losing to RIP/Energy field/helm control/combo with Counter-Top main.

Edit:


Yesterday in the Dutch Open National Championship, 7 decks in top 16 were Storm combo. Don't count too much on Storm being cold to the stuff out there right now. :wink:

shit happens when you don't read the last replies.

[Barbed Blightning]

Yesterday in the Dutch Open National Championship, 7 decks in top 16 were Storm combo. Don't count too much on Storm being cold to the stuff out there right now. :wink:

I realize that Storm is much bigger across the pond (I have a storm buddy who was super ecstatic when Storm took GP Ghent). However, at least in NE America, Storm and its kin is a non-issue when making sideboards up this way, since maybe one or two ever show up at the monthlies. Even at larger events, I find midrange decks far more common.

my current problem is finding a good list to deal with other decks, esp. equipment. I know it's silly, but has Manriki-Gusari ever been considered as an answer to Jitte/Batterskull?

Further, has Pithing Needle been tested for the sideboard? Is it any good for this archetype?

[LeoCop 90]

I'm still riding the "no interaction"-train. Since our deck is already good at fighting countermagic I was looking for something that makes our goblins removal-proof.
It would be probably really difficult to steal place in our deck to make goblins removal-proof, but there are some goblins that can do this job quite well: i mean Mad Auntie and Goblin Chirurgeon . I prefer the chirurgeon because mad auntie can't regenerate itself, and because it has the same advantages of Skirk Prospector : can be useful as dredge hate and can defeat jitte/batterskull. Also Wort, Boggart Auntie can be a great help against removals. Surely the cards mentioned by GoboLord are stronger than these, but these are goblins and can be included in our deck without too many problems.
About Steely Resolve , here is its black counterpart : Cover of Darkness . It could be a very good surprise card against creature-based decks.


I know this is in the To-be-tested section of the primer, but has somebody actually tested Battle Squadron against decks packing Moat? I'd test it in coming playtests but couldn't find a copy so I'll proxy. To those who did, can you please share your opinion? Thanks.

To fight Moat, apart from Battle Squadron, Siege-Gang ,Sharpshooter,Kiki-Kiki/Lightning Crafter combo, there is Skirk Fire Marshal . I don't think i would use it instead of a siege-gang, but consider that combined with Mogg Maniac it can deal 20 direct damages to an opponent (ten dealt by the fire marshal, and ten dealt by mogg maniac who has received ten damages).

[Asthereal]

I realize that Storm is much bigger across the pond (I have a storm buddy who was super ecstatic when Storm took GP Ghent). However, at least in NE America, Storm and its kin is a non-issue when making sideboards up this way, since maybe one or two ever show up at the monthlies. Even at larger events, I find midrange decks far more common.
True. In the States people seem to be reluctant to play Storm. Never understood why that's the case anyway, but still.
Issues with equipment can be resolved upon by Tuktuk Scrapper and sideboard Krosan Grips. That, to me, seems the best way to deal with them.

[ScatmanX]

Here wondering how goblins went in the Dutch nationals. *cof*GoboLord*cof*.
Guessing there was too much Storm, and we are not preparing ourselfs all that much for them nawadays. =/

[vennie]

There wer about 8 players with goblins at the event, but they were nowhere near the higher tables after round 3/4.

[Davran]

Further, has Pithing Needle been tested for the sideboard? Is it any good for this archetype?


I've had a couple of Pithing Needle in my board lately...but unfortunately I've not drawn them. My thoughts are that they act as a catch-all for some of the things we have a problem with like:

Vedalken Shackles
Sensei's Divining Top
Planeswalkers
Mother of Runes (removal is better since Mav has Pridemage)
Pernicious Deed
Equipment (in a pinch anyway)

etc.

The trick is really knowing what to name...

[BWM]

Mother of Runes (removal is better since Mav has Pridemage)

I'd board out Pridemage vs Goblins, it does nothing relevant.

[jrw1985]

About Steely Resolve , here is its black counterpart : Cover of Darkness . It could be a very good surprise card against creature-based decks.

This is a fine post.

Cover of Darkness
Enchantment B1
As Cover of Darkness enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
Creatures of the chosen type have fear. (They can't be blocked except by artifact creatures and/or black creatures.)

A long while ago it occured to me that the Goblins sideboard has historically made the deck more disruptive and defensive, NOT more aggressive and faster. Every G2 your deck will be slower than it was G1, because you've boarded out goblins that deal damage for disruptive cards that slow down your opponent. Cover of Darkness is probably the first card I've seen suggested that just says "Fuck this. Let's race." I really like it.

Now the question is whether it's good enough for Legacy. The fact that it's asymmetrical is Awesome. Your Goblins have Fear. Your opponents' non-Goblins don't. The fact it's 2cc is also super cool. It lets you play T1>Lackey, T2>CoD>SGC and you have chump blockers ready for next turn. CoD is an Enchantment, so it is going to be difficult for your opponent to remove once you've stuck it. Probably the best thing about CoD is that it makes those awkward combat scenarios favorable to you. It's also worth noting that B probably has the worst creature base in Legacy, meaning CoD will seldom be a dead card against a deck packing mostly B creatures.

Now on to the weak point of the card: Affinity and Batterskull. Fear doesn't get past artifact creatures or black germ tokens. That might be a fairly narrow problem, but it's a very real problem. In order to race a BS you need to keep it from blocking. And in order to race Affinity you actually need to get through their wall of T1 0cc dorks. CoD won't help you there.

I think the next time I run a B splash I'll try a few Cover of Darkness in the sideboard.

[ScatmanX]

And in order to race Affinity you actually need to get through their wall of T1 0cc dorks. CoD won't help you there.

I think the next time I run a B splash I'll try a few Cover of Darkness in the sideboard.
Pyrokinesis solve the affinity problem =]
I'd like to hear if you actually get to play with CoD. It does seem awesome.

[Cleston]

On the same subject of Cover of Darkness, not so many pages ago someone was mentioning Raging River... I wonder if that was actually tested.

I myself have a couple of Goblin War Drums at home, but it just seems too much, by costing 3. If you go to auras, in red there's Imposing Visage at 1cc, and going green there's also Canopy Cover.

[Davran]

I'd board out Pridemage vs Goblins, it does nothing relevant.

True enough, though it does block and trade with a large portion of the deck and potentially live through combat on the offense too.

[orcanmail]

Has anyone ever tried nevs disc in mono red goblins as a way to mass remove artifacts, enchantments and creatures. It's a bit slow at 4cc come into play tapped, but as a reset button would allow us to recover with matrons and ringleaders quicker than others.

i still can't get blood moons out of my head either, surely turning lands to basic mountains would wreck loads of other decks.

trying to come up with ideas!

[slave]

This is a fine post.

Cover of Darkness
Enchantment B1
As Cover of Darkness enters the battlefield, choose a creature type.
Creatures of the chosen type have fear. (They can't be blocked except by artifact creatures and/or black creatures.)

The fact that it's asymmetrical is Awesome. Your Goblins have Fear. Your opponents' non-Goblins don't.

Non-gobz yeah, but it's a global effect, like Goblin King.
So this would be a terri-bad choice for the mirror.

I like Ghostway - seems like a nice option for a deck packing SGC, Krenkz, Ringleader etc.

[LeoCop 90]

Non-gobz yeah, but it's a global effect, like Goblin King.
So this would be a terri-bad choice for the mirror.

I don't agree with it; i won a few mirrors thanks to Goblin King, and the same could be with Cover of Darkness.
You just have to wait until you have a decent amount of goblins, possibly a Piledriver, then make all of them unblockable and go for the alpha-strike. Of course i'd prefer to side pyrokinesis in the mirror, but also goblin king-cover of darkness can be useful.

[angel882]

Hei, has anyone tested Serum Powder more against those unfair MU:s? I would like to hear is it worth playing because on theory it sounds great.

[jrw1985]

I played a 4 round tourney yesterday with a Rw 3 Thalia build.
2 Port
4 Waste
4 Mountain
2 Platuae
4 Cavern
1 Karakas
5 Fetch

3 Thalia
2 Piledirver
The rest standard.

SB
3 Pithing Needle
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Rest In Peace
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Seal of Cleansing

R1 Omnitell
G1 he combos out. G2 he counters my Seal of Cleansing, but when he resolves SnT it's the fatty route and Stingscourger bounces an Emrakul, and he's not able to go off again before dying. G3 I play T1 Vial, T2 Thalia. He counters the Thalia and goes for SnT again. He drops Omni, I drop Seal. Seal pops Omni when he casts a free Burning Wish. He Gets a Pyroclasm and I bash him until he clears my board, then I play some more guys (thalia #2, Matron for Piledirver) and he Wishes again, this time for Grapeshot which clears my board, but I vial in piledriver and a Warchief next turn and go to town. W

R2 Vengevine Zombies
G1 I play T1 Vial, he T1 CTs me, blanking. I T2 Wasteland his Bayou. He T2 sacs a fetch, plays a Putrid Imp, discards Vengevine, Rootwalla, bashes me. I'm able to Gempalm away his Vine T3 with a Thalia block + Gempalm, but he's able to play Carrion Feeder and Deathrite Shaman. to bring back Vine, and I'm overwhelmed pretty quickly.

I side in 4 RiP and some Pithing Needles to shut off Imp, Shaman, Carrion Feeder, Goblin Bombardment, basically all the cards that allow him to get recursion value, and I also side in a few Chalice of the Void because the vast majority of his deck costs 1.

I mull to 6 and get a decent hand with Lackey and no hate. He keeps his 7. I T1 Lackey, he T1 Putrid Imp into Vengvine, Rootwalla, swings for 4. I lose. Woof.

R3 i lost to Rug Delver in 2. G1 he blind-flips Delver T2 and I can't kill it before I die. G2 I side in RiP and draw 2 but never see a W source to cast them. Ugh.

R4 I lose to RUG Delver in 3. G1 is kinda grindy, G2 I resolve a RiP and he scoops (this is why I think this might be THE card to run for GY hate now). G3 i don't play well and lose because of it.

Thoughts:
RiP caused my RUG opponent to scoop. Had I draw one R2 against Zombardment I would have had a chance to stabilize. Yes, it is slow and requires a splash, but it's looking like RiP is going to become a real player in this format, if only because it can convince RUG to scoop. It might need to be supplemented with other hate cards, but I think it shows a lot of promise.
Seal of Cleansing was great against Omnitell.

[GoboLord]

Update Notes


November 3rd 2012
* added Rest in Peace and Cover of Darkness to "To-be-tested" cards
* added Brightstone Ritual and Chaos Warp to "Bad cardchoices"

[Avatara]

* added Brightstone Ritual and Chaos Warp to "Bad cardchoices"

Why list those cards if they are really that bad?

[ScatmanX]

Why list those cards if they are really that bad?
Because now and then, some people actually ask.

[slave]

LOL.
When I first got into Legacy, I was playing a burn deck - played 3x Chaos Warp, to get rid of Leyline of Sanctity etc.
I remember the first time I came up against a Show-n-Tell deck. It was bad....:laugh:

RiP is a genuine threat to quite a few decks out there, and many of them (like Dredge) suffer a massive tempo-hit. I like it.
Still not sure about Thalia though, whenever I've played it, it doesn't seem to do enough to slow my opponents' down, apart from Storm (which has usually already won anyway!)

[jrw1985]

Played in a little tourney today. There were like 20 players so it wasn't too big of a deal. I made Top 8 going 2-1-1 then lost in the Quarter Finals to the Terrible Tudor, Mean Gene Richtsmeier.

List
4 Vial Lackey Gempalm Matron Warchief Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshall, Thalia
2 Piledriver
1 Prospector, Sharpshooter, SGC, Krenko, Stingscourger, Tuktuk

6 Fetch
4 Mountain, Cavern, Wasteland
3 Plateau
1 Karakas

I cut Port before the tourney. It hadn't been pulling its weight, plus I needed more access to W sources because of my sideboard...

4 Chalice
3 Rest in Peace, Pyrokinesis
2 Seal of Cleansing, Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

I was originally going to play 4 RiP, but I felt I needed a slightly faster piece of GY hate in there as well, so I went with the Cage.

R1 Elves
G1 I was on the draw and had a Vial, Gempalm, Warchief hand... AKA too slow to get that Sharpshooter online before the Elves went buck wild. I managed to Gempalm away a Wirewood Symbiote, but he landed an Elf Lord so I couldn't use the Sharpshooter in my hand to take the game.
I sided out 3 Thalias and 3 Gempalms and a Piledriver and brought in 4 Chalice and 3 Pyrokinesis.
G2 I had a strong Vial hand, then topdecked Chalice. T2 Chalcie @ 1 put him too far behind, and I vialed in a Lackey to cheat in a SGC. Yup.
G3 I opened a starting hand of Vial, Pyro, Chalice, some lands and some gobbos. Yup. Pretty much can't lose with an opener like that. He played an elf, I played a Vial. He played another Elf. I Pyro'd them away and played Chalice @1, and that was pretty much that.
1-0

R2 BUG
G1 I kept a 1 Land hand with Lackey on the Play. I felt OK doing this because my hand had MWM, Piledriver, and Gempalm, so I had a 1 drop and was only 1 top-deck'd land away from hardcasting stuff. Well, Lackey met FoW, he played Trop> Mongoose T1. I did't draw another land for forever. Neither did he. Once I got another land he started FoWing everything I tried to resolve and Goose kept hitting me for 1 (since he was removing cards to Force, he wasn't at Threshold yet). A Goyf finally joins the fray and I lose.
I sided out 3 Thalias, Sharpshooter, Tuktuk, 1 Piledriver and 2 Gempalms and brought in 3 Rest in Piece, 3 Pyrokinesis, and 2 Chalice. RiP should ruin his day if it resolves since it takes out 2/3 of his creatures. Chalice can really slow him down since his curve is very similar to that of RUG Delver. And you gotta side out Sharpshooter, because he will never untap with an RiP in play. Ever.
G2 got real grindy. I kept him in check with MWM blocks and kept him from hitting me too much with Delver. I also tricked him into blocking a suicidal attacking goblin token with a goyf, then used a Pyro to get the last 4 damage needed to kill said Goyf. It was a pretty stupid play, but it worked. A Chalice @ 1 took him out of the game for a while, but he had Abrupt Decay to get back in the game. When I was ready to cast an RiP I attacked first. He made his blocks with Goyf and Goose and I got like 3 damage through. Then I cast the RiP, he removed his GY, and I kindly informed him that his creatures were dead. He was confused, and I pointed out that his Goose and Goyf both had 1 damage on them and 1 toughness. A turn or two later I took the game.
Time was called T1 of Game 3.
1-0-1

R3 RUG Delver
G1 I had all the Wastelands in the world but couldn't keep him off colored mana, while he was able to get Goyf and Goose going. I got a Thalia in play off of Vial, but it was too little too late. Goyf was just too strong this game.

G2 I sided out Thalia. Let me explain my reasoning behind this, because my opponent definitely said he would have left her in after the round: I resolved a Thalia and 4 Wastelands G1, and lost. Thalia doesn't stop RUG like it does Storm because RUG isn't trying to resolve 3 Spells a turn, it's only doing 1 non-creature spell and 1 creature spell. Well, Thalia doesn't stop the creature spell and the non-creature spell is only slightly slowed. I don't see Thalia as being a major threat to RUG Delver decks. You know what IS a threat to them though? RiP. I sided the same this game as I did R2, except I also took out Tuktuk for another Chalice (Tuktuk is sorta a non-issue because RUG won't bring in Jitte, since it cannot equip on a goose).
I opened on a hand with Vial, Chalice and a RiP, but no threats. I played Vial, hoping it would snag a FoW. It resolved. He played a T1 goose. I played T2 Chalice @1, also resolved. He played T2 Goyf. I played T3 RiP and it too resolved. He drew for the turn attacked me down to 17, looked at the life totals (me 17, him 20) and scooped. Between the Chalice and RiP he recognized the inevitability of the situation.

G3 I had to mull to 6 and kept a pretty mediocre 6, but it was better than an average 5. I don't recall much, but I'm pretty sure he had double 4/5 Goyfs on, like, T3. No RiP to save my ass this time.
1-1-1

R4 Reanimator
The fellow I played this round wasn't playing an optimized deck, per se. It was a little behind the curve, and I don't think he was too knowledgeable about the format. I knew he was on Reanimator, so i tried mulling to a Thalia/Karakas/Wasteland hand.
G1 I mulled to 5 and had a pretty mediocre hand, but it had a Waste and a Piledriver. Well, my opponent was clearly keeping a shaky 7, and he lead with an Underground Sea and mainphase Brainstorm. I'm OK with that. I Wasted his land and he never saw another. W
G2 I sided out Gempalms for Cage and RiP. I opened on a great hand with Vial, Matron, and Cage. He was on the play and led with nothing, just passed. What a gift! I drew and played a T1 Vial. He went Draw, discard Jin Gitaxis T2. Pretty slow. I upped Vial to 1 and cast Cage T2, which was met with FoW. Fair enough. He fetched a Swamp and Reanimated T3, dropping to 8 life. He drew his 7 cards, discarded down to 7, and passed the turn. I played a Cavern, naming Goblins, cast Matron, grabbed Stingscourger, and Vialed in Stinscourger, bouncing Jin, and saved my hand from being discarded at EOT. He couldn't recover from the bounce. W
2-1-1

I just Barely snuck into the Top 8. Just barely.

Quarterfinals - Junk/Rock/Gwb/whatever it is called
G1 Gene was pretty mana screwed, and even though I didn't have a great hand I was able to deal with his threats better than he could cast them. I took the game pretty easily. I won the turn after he finally hit his 3rd mana.
G2 I sided out Thalia (Probably a mistake) and also took out a few Gempalms (also maybe a mistake) and brought in Seal of Cleansing and Needle and Pyrokinesis. I mulled to 6 and kept a hand with Vial, Needle, and some junk. He played T1 Top. I played T1 Needle. This was probably a mistake. I should have just lead with Vial, let him spin his Top once, then Needle top T2. This would have given me a little more tempo than the route I went, which was a T2 Vial. I had pretty mediocre draws this game and couldn't get through the double E-Plague he landed, even though Seal was able to take care of one of them. Deed came down eventually to clear the board (well, My board) and that was that.
G3 was pretty similar to G2. I mulled to 6 and kept a pretty damn mediocre hand. No 1-drop or interaction for me. He lead with a T1 Land, Mox Diamond, life from the loam. He had Plague and Deed and I had neither Needle nor Seal. I missed having Chieftain which always helps against Plagues. So that sorta sucked. I didn't even get packs for Top-8ing, which seems pretty lame.
I really don't know whether I should have sided in RiP this game. He played KotR, Ooze, and Terravore, so there was a certain amount of GY reliance, but it seemed that having answers to creatures was more important than trying to make those creatures smaller. Plus, he ran SFM and equipment so that seemed like a pretty easy problem for him to work around. Then again, he also ran Life from the Loam, though it wasn't central to his strategy. Really, this is one of those MUs where all you can really hope for is a fast Goblin hand that puts on more pressure than they can deal with, so keep hoping that a Shatter-on-a-Stick Goblin gets printed soon, or just another broken-ass 1 or 2 drop.

My big question right now is whether or not Thalia is worth it. I really like the W splash for Seal and especially RiP, but siding those cards in starts to require that you side Thalia out. And Thalia seems only OK against Delver decks. Unfortunately, I don't get to playtest ever (no friends that play anymore) so I can't really get a clear idea of how much benefit she gives in these MUs. I would like to hear from some other Sourcers on this. I should probably also hop on the Maverick thread and see how they side with Thalia against Delver decks and the like.

RiP was the bomb. I got a win against BUG Delver and RUG Delver because it resolved. It is solid, very powerful, and just a beating. The only problem is that your opponent sometimes gets 2 turns before it comes down, which is why I also sided a Grafdiggers Cage to hedge that a little. Still, I really liked that cards.

[Stephan/]

@jrw1985: Really nice to see that you also came to quite similar results in playin Rw - boarding out Thalia a couple of times gainst RiP is just right in my humble opinion, although I'm playing with a little bit different sb actually:

2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
2 Seal of Cleansing (you idea - had Disenchants before xD )
3 Rest in Peace
1 flexible slot - 4th Rest in Peace at the moment
3 Pyro-/Red E. Blast

with a slightly different maindeck:

4th Mogg War Marshal <-> no Stingscourger main
7 Fetch, 4 Plateau <-> just 3 Mountains and no Karakas, because it was in testing underwhelming

.... and yes, Ports seem just wrong and you really want that white source when you board in RiP. Also I had the feeling that having a red source to pay for cycling or echo where you need to stall der ground is really important - that's why not only cutting the Ports but also Karakas.

In this case my boarding plan gainst RUG is:

In:
3 Rest in Peace
3 Pyro-/Red E. Blast (as removal gainst flying Delver and forcing though RiP)

Out:
3 Thalia, Guarding of Thraben
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss or something differnt (I mean Krenko survives Rough, but is expensive for beeing in bolt-range, Piledriver is to strong to stall gainst 1/1 Mongoose, maybe the Skrik Prospektor would be the right call - what's your opinion? )

In case of Thalia I have no problem to board her out and see her as additional hate to Thorn of Amethyst gainst the storm MU. She is just flexible, but when you have something better in board and need to keep the goblin count up it's no problem to board her out. I wouldn't kick her out of the maindeck because of this reason - sometimes she just wins the first game.

My questions would be - how important is Chalice of the Void for you and why do you really play Pithing Needles in board?

[Asgar]

I discussed cover in darkness with a friend and we came to the conclusion, that as long as there are no relevant creature decks except maverick, dread of night is just better. It improves your esperblade matchup, too, wich is normally a difficult one. Against merfolk you win anyway and you just don't want to board cover in darkness against thresh or the mirror.

[1337erhosen]

I think Cover of Darkness would be a lot more appealing if it had a relevant application against Batterskull. If only the Germ wasn't Black...

However, I don't think Dread of Night is what you want either.

Pyrokenisis is just so much more flexible and not reliant on a splash.

Virtue's Ruin is what I'd play over Dread of Night in the black splash if you want to hose Maverick.

[angel882]

How to explain a lack of goblins in top 8 in SCG St.Louis?

[Sasan]

How to explain a lack of goblins in top 8 in SCG St.Louis?

We do not know how many goblin players attended the tournament. Although Goblins is a deck to beat, not many players pilot it. There are tons more of RUG, Maverick or Esper Blade decks and they have therefore more chances to go to top 8. It is just a maths thing.

[Avatara]

We do not know how many goblin players attended the tournament. Although Goblins is a deck to beat, not many players pilot it. There are tons more of RUG, Maverick or Esper Blade decks and they have therefore more chances to go to too 8. It is just a maths thing.

RiP + Energy field also hits goblins super hard... the only true solution to that is Krosan Grip since it can't be countered.

[Yuri8]

After long time playing TES I sleeved goblins once again for little tournament (23ppl) organized by me.
Dechklist:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
1 Taiga
6 Mountain

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Mogg War Marshall
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander

sb:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Thalia
1 Plateau
2 Pyrolbast
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Relic of Progenitus

1. UR delver
First game I keep slow hand with vials and quick g.guide starts attacking me, at least it brought me 3 lands. After stabilizing a bit opponenet decide to throw every burn spell to my head. I killed him on 2 life.
First turn fanantic on delver saved a lot of trouble. He is trying to burn with miracles and two vortex but I attack him down to 3 and he dies to his vortex.
1-0

2. Reanimator
In first he keeps really bad hand (he probably doesn’t play much) and lackey, chieftain and piledriver end it quickly.
He thoughseizes himself in second turn to discard Iona which got removed by relic. Then I dropped Thalia and two chieftains…
2-0

3. UR delver
He started with lavamancer, so tried vial and it resolved. Then I waited to gempalm lavamancer in response to killing my lackey and eventualy stabilize with matron->ringleader->sgc.
Second game vial resolved once again. Fanatic killed annoying lavamancer and pyrokinesis hit two snapcasters. One ringleader and victory was mine…
3-0
4. Omnitell
In first I tried resist with wateland and port but burning wish for show and tell into omnisence, gg.
I mulliganed into 5 and went with lackey. He eventually SnT but i pyroblast and dobule piledriver stomp him down.
I keep good hand with lackey and thalia. First met force, second daze, nothing I could do…
3-1

5. Mono black
I don’t remember this match well …first game my lackey got killed and after some mana screw on both sides I think double chieftain ended it…
In second I fought through 3 mishras factory, breaking point was ringleader into two fanatics, sgc and matron which provided me enough goblins to kill tombstalker and bob, he died turn before drawing enginereed plague.
4-1
6. MUD
Mulligan on my side to five on draw. He just played citadel, me vial. Second turn metalworker…next turn sundering titan + wurmcoil. I manage to stablilize with mwm and piledriver threat on board, but he played chalice on both 2 and 3 and locked my whole hand.
Second game was pretty much same, metalworker into million mana and 2 wurmcoils…
4-2

Ended on fifth place in the end. Caverns are still missing and that hurt in Omnitel and MUD matchup. Thalila appeared only when my victory was only matter of time and did completely nothing, so she will stay in sideboard for now. And last, I removed krenko for fourth piledriver. I just love when I draw 2-3 copies of one card, for example drawing 3 mwm results in completely overextending enemy, 3 chieftains make your goblins really big and 3 piledrivers just creates so many „must kill“ or „must block“ situations…

[1337erhosen]

RiP + Energy field also hits goblins super hard... the only true solution to that is Krosan Grip since it can't be countered.

Yeah Krosan Grip seems like the only reliable answer to it. Perhaps upping to 3 in the board is the right answer.

I think REB might be alright too though, because they'll probably board out Counterbalance against us, and we want to board in REB anyways against Miracles.

[jrw1985]

@jrw1985: My questions would be - how important is Chalice of the Void for you and why do you really play Pithing Needles in board?

Chalice is, first and formost, great against Storm. Is that relevant? Not very. Storm will never be more than 10% of the field. What else is it important against? It has limitted playability against Delvergoose decks since they live and die by their 1-drops, but they'll usually have a counter to answer Chalice and Goyf to play around it. Plus, if you keep a Chalice hand against them they just might blind-flip a Delver T2 and just cruise to victory with it anyway. I don't think Chalice is very important, but it is a card that can steal games against the right deck. One of the advantages to playing Chalice is that your opponent will probably side-out some counterspells against you, since Goblins has a way of playing through those (Lackey, Vial, Cavern). So Chalice probably has a better chance of resolving G2 than you'd initially think.

I was playing Pithing Needle just to see how effective it would be. I discovered that it was only OK in the MUs I faced with it, but not over-powered. Against Junk it shut off Top, but then his draws were good enough that he eventually got a Deed, so Needle was kind-of a wash. And that's a real problem with a lot of SB cards. Every SB card takes 1 goblin out of your deck, so you can't really side in too many cards if they're not going to make a big impact on the game.

Really, as of right now, there is only 1 card I really want in my SB, and that's Rest in Peace. I've been waiting and waiting for a card that can shut off Thresh and RiP is that card. My only question is whether to run 3 or 4. I want to run 4, just because it's so powerful, but since it's a little slow a faster piece of GY hate might also be necessary, so maybe only 3 RiP +1 Surgical or whatever.

Otherwise, Seal of Cleansing is a great, proactive answer to Control, Equipment, and SnT combo, which is another reason to run W.

Between Thalia, RiP and Seal it seems like W has an awful lot to help Goblins in an awful lot of MUs.

That's enough from me for now. I'm off to vote. Merica.

[Cleston]

Here's what I'll be running tonight:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

4 Mountain
2 Taiga

4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief

4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Stingscourger
2 Krenko, Mob Boss

1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Tarfire

sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Angel of Despair
2 Stingscourger
2 Tin Street Hooligan

I don't really feel like splashing into another color, except that I dislike tuktuks, hence green for Hooligan.

I expect the majority of the field to be composed of fair decks, so I dropped my white package last night for more goblinness. If I read the metagame badly, I'll be severely punished. If not, I don't want to be playing Thalias just to side them out hald the time. Seems like way too much trouble for me, though I do agree with jrw1985 that white has too much to offer.



On a side note: currently looking for new ideas on a blue splash. Thoughts? Spell Pierce? Izzet Charm? Flusterstorm?

[Cleston]

this one is a bit shorter due to time restrictions. 4 round, 16 man tournament.

round 1:

g1: opponent starts brainstorming for two turns. i had mulled to 6 and had kept a slow hand. turn 3 i resolve a matron, and put him on show and tell. search for scourger. he bolts me on the head, and proceeds to burn me out of the game with the help of snapcasters.
g2: i mull to 6 and keep a slow hand. tarfire remove his goblin guide. after that, he grim lavamancers me out of the game.

loss

round 2:

g1: rishadan port prevents him from making any real play. i see lingering souls and swords, only. had no idea what he was playing. there were also swamps and bayous at sight.
g2: he thoughtseizes me removing a key lackey, but rishadan shows up along with double wasteland, there wasn't really a game here.

win

round 3:

g1: he starts with a noble hierarch, i lead with a lackey that eats a FoW. i had put him on maverick, but it was actually a bant control/combo natural order deck. he concedes when I get a nice board.

g2: this game goes long, as the board gets to a point of triple tarmogoyfs vs activ e krenko, and I stabilized at 4 life only. I had a gempalm at hand ready for any damage he could try to force through, but in one turn I made two key mistakes: one, I tapped out, for pure dumbness (blanked out for a second, dunno what happened), and then I manage to forget to make tokens pre-combat and keep from killing him in one atack. he topdecks elspeth, makes a flying goyf and wins. this was really embarrassing, and a real bad beat I manage to produce for myself. yay. I think this is what americans call "a punt".

g3: natural order turn 3, progenitus, gg.

loss

round 4 I considered to drop, but ultimately decided to play anyway to try to wash away the bad beat. didn't really work...

g1: he spirit guides a guy turn 1 that grows whenever i gain life. turn two he makes his guy huge and puts me into single digits. I play the tempo game with double vial active, and a single sintgscourger puts him away from the game. he concedes once i get n active krenko.

g2: vials and lackeys do the goblin dance, at least once for the whole tournament. it was a terrible match for him, as we had seen absolutely none of his berserks.

win




what i learned: perhaps i've been playing too much control at standard, cause I'm actually playing as a tempo/control player, not an aggro. my friend who watched me play said that I should consider approaching the deck on a different manner: insted of searching for reactive cards, I should search for proactive cards. instead of minding my points of life, I should be consideringmy opponents. perhaps that even reflects how I built my deck: full of answers, shallow on piledrivers/instigators. dunno. maybe it's time for me to ponder.

it was also frustrating to see so many mulligans in one single night. I have to say I mulled 2 out of every 3 hands. I dunno how deckbuilding could help reduce my mulligans. the deck i played is posted right above.

another thing that occurred to me is that thalia would have helped me the games i won, but not the games i lost. I dunno what deckbuilding decisions could have improved my chances on the games I lost (counterburn and, sadly, natural order/progenitus). though, for sure playing more "all-in" aggro would certainly help.

[FoxBlade]

what i learned: perhaps i've been playing too much control at standard, cause I'm actually playing as a tempo/control player, not an aggro. my friend who watched me play said that I should consider approaching the deck on a different manner: insted of searching for reactive cards, I should search for proactive cards. instead of minding my points of life, I should be consideringmy opponents. perhaps that even reflects how I built my deck: full of answers, shallow on piledrivers/instigators. dunno. maybe it's time for me to ponder.

I agree with your friend. From your deck above it looks like you went for a tool box and sacrificed a lot of aggro/tempo generating cards to do that.

So my advice: -1 Krenko, -1 Tarfire, -1 Chieftain, -1 Stingscourger, // +3 Piledrivers and +1 SGC

I think you'll also see yourself taking less mulligans. I really suggest the 3 Piledrivers for sure, simply because you have 3 MWMs. Piledrivers are just fantastic and MWMs buff them up considerably.

I don't think you need instigator in this meta, in fact I think GobboLord is right about wanting to have more removal. I love instigator and he was fantastic just before I quit playing (and recently picked up the deck again), but he doesn't seem to be as strong of a choice to include right now. A lot of people are packing lots of removal in their decks (+ Snapcaster) and their creatures are generally bigger. So I think having more removal seems to be a stronger choice.

I know I told you to ditch the tarfire and 1 stingscourger, but that's because I just don't think they are strong enough removal cards. I think you should keep at least 1 stingscourger though, maybe one on the SB for SnT decks at least.

[Sasan]

Has anyone an opinion about Seal of Cleansing? Has anyone found it better than Krosan Grip? I ask because I am torn on that issue. I Need a good card vs Esper Blade and Helm/RiP Combo and I think both are great :)

[Tammit67]

Has anyone an opinion about Seal of Cleansing? Has anyone found it better than Krosan Grip? I ask because I am torn on that issue. I Need a good card vs Esper Blade and Helm/RiP Combo and I think both are great :)

I really like grip: I'm already splashing green for tin-street and don't like the other cards white has to offer. I don't want my answer to energy field to be so easily countered, even if that means it is available faster

[Sasan]

But vs Esper Grip can get discarded before it helps. Seal is pro active. Was discard a problem for you when playing against Esper?

[jrw1985]

Has anyone an opinion about Seal of Cleansing? Has anyone found it better than Krosan Grip? I ask because I am torn on that issue. I Need a good card vs Esper Blade and Helm/RiP Combo and I think both are great :)

Opinions all around! It'll take a while for me to make my point about Seal of Cleansing, but bear with me.

I played last night with a Rw list with 3 Thalia main and 3 RiP, 4 Seal of Cleansing in the SB.

I played against a Storm deck last night and lost G1 off a no-lander mull to 5, but I had a Lackey so just hoped to topdeck a Mountain and race. No such luck. Shoulda mulled to 4.
G2 I sided in 4 Chalice, 3 RiP, 1 Grafdigger's Cage.
SB was...
4 Chalice
3 RiP
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Pyrokinesis
I really like how Storm decks now are much more reliant on their graveyard than they were before Past in Flames was printed because it makes GY hate much more side-able against them. It was always a bit of a gamble siding Leyline against storm because if it wasn't in your opener it was just going to be a dead draw, so if you actually got the chance to race them you might find Leyline ruining your game. RiP is almost always castable against Storm, and in this match RiP shut off Snapcaster, PiF and Cbal Ritual.
Back to G2: I kept my 7 on the play and played T1 Chalice @ 0, then T2 Thalia. He eventually had to Tendrils me for 12 to stay in the game, but I swung back for 15 and sealed the deal. He was too far behind to make a comeback with Ad nauseum.
G3 on the draw I mulled to 6 and kept a hand with Mountain, Chalice, Thalia, RiP, Grafdigger's Cage and MWM. Kinda keepable. He Duressed me T1 and took Chalice. I played Cage. He CT'd T2 and named Thalia. I ripped a W source and cast RiP T2. Then I started playing goblins and was setting up to win, so he needed to Ad nauseum out. He dumped his hand at 18 life to cast Ad nauseum, but because of the RiP he wasn't able to recurr spells from the GY OR get max value out of his Cabal Rituals. He wound up going down to 1 life and then scooped because RiP had shut off the mana he needed to chain Tutors together (CR only netted him 1 mana) and stopped him from recurring tutors through Past in Flames. I won this game because my opponent had a lot of disruption in his hand, so instead of just going off he tried to disrupt me. This is fine and good against counterspell decks, but against permanent-based disruption it sucks, because the discard slows the storm player down while also offering no answer to resolved hate permanents. And, clearly, I had an excellent hand, and I got lucky by ripping the W source T2 to cast RiP.

R4 I played against UW control with SFM, Batterskull, and Supreme Verdict. I sided in all 4 Seals for G2. They were pretty disappointing. First of all, Seal sucks against Top. Secondly, it is very easy for Batterskull to play around a resolved Seal, and Seal needs to be in play in order to disrupt BS. Basically, against Top and BS you want Seal to be a K-Grip. Fine. No big deal.
However, here's where it starts to get tricky, because running Thalia + RiP makes the deck very dependent on its W splash. If you want to run K-Grip you'll obviously need a G splash. This didn't really matter before the printing of Cavern of Souls, but now that Souls is here it's pretty much a necessity. If you're trying to splash G AND W your manabas is going to wind up looking like this...
4 Cavern
4 Waste
2 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Karakas
4 Mountain
6 Fetchlands
Now that's not a terrible looking manabase, but is making it a lot more difficult to find the color you need when you need it.
But, thinking about it, I guess it doesn't seem That bad, does it? I mean, I could easily cut my MD Tuktuk for a TSH to utilize the G splash MD and still run the W splash (not that I'm convinced that TSH is really that good, but enough people play it that it can't possibly be like, Way Worse than Tuktuk or anything). Thalia is easily sided out against UW Control because they're never really stuck on mana.

So, back to your original question, Is Seal of Cleansing better than K-Grip? No. But W is such a crazy powerful splash that I'm torn between making due with Rw and Seal or increasing the vulnerability of my manabase with a Rwg Grip build. In a perfect world Grip would just be W. But it isn't. The W splash is just crazy powerful right now because of the printing of RiP and Thalia.

K-Grip > Seal of Cleansing
but
W splash > G splash

Hmmmm.... Here's what I'm thinking. Maybe I'll try out the manabase I listed above and drop 2 or 3 Seals for Grips in the SB. I still want to have some Seals because they're fast, I don't have to leave mana open, they can be played off SnT and they're cheaper, but having 2 or 3 K-grip for Equipment MUs cannot possibly be a bad thing.

Shoot, I've talked myself into it. I'm gonna go for the Rwg build!

[Sasan]

Thanks for the Great and insightful answer. I thought of a GWR splash and thought that the mana base should look like this one:
7 Fetches
2 Plateau
1 Karakas
1 Taiga
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
3 Mountains.

You have 6 Lands and 7 Fetches - not bad. And with 7 Fetches instead of 6 you increase the green splash. Gobolord proposed that combination if you want to go RWG on our German boards :-)

Thanks again for the great testing ;)

[Tammit67]

But vs Esper Grip can get discarded before it helps. Seal is pro active. Was discard a problem for you when playing against Esper?
Not particularly. Either I got tin street or prospector or siege gang or Incinerator to deal with the equipment/guys equipped or i got grip. Sometimes you just draw into after discard. While I wouldn't call seal 'proactive' (most certainly a reactive card), you mention a good point, but one that hasn't been an issue for me just yet.

[jrw1985]

Not particularly. Either I got tin street or prospector or siege gang or Incinerator to deal with the equipment/guys equipped or i got grip. Sometimes you just draw into after discard. While I wouldn't call seal 'proactive' (most certainly a reactive card), you mention a good point, but one that hasn't been an issue for me just yet.

That's the problem I found with Seal. It isn't reactive or proactive enough. Once you play it, they can just play around it. Or, if you play it after they've played their artifact or enchantment, it's just a slower Disenchant. So it isn't ideal. But the fact that you can SnT it in is relevant. And popping it in response to an ETB trigger after SnT is pretty decent too.

[Mantis]

Recently there have been popping up quite a few decks that have been giving me a headache as a Goblins player. I finally tuned my deck and playstyle to be able to convincingly beat Canadian Thresh, Maverick and even had game against ANT when all of a sudden this RiP/Energy Field deck pops up and the Show and Tell became unbeatable with the addition of Omniscience. I set out to create a Goblins build that had game against these decks and quickly realized that if you are tweak the deck to beat these newcomers, your Tempo Thresh and Maverick matchups will suffer as a result. But then this crazy idea popped when searching through the gatherer:

// Lands
3 [P2] Mountain (2)
4 [JGC] Wasteland
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [B] Taiga
1 [U] Plateau

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [DDG] Skirk Prospector
1 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [AT] Mogg Fanatic
3 [LE] Skirk Drill Sergeant
4 [V09] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [M11] Goblin Chieftain
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [M13] Krenko, Mob Boss

// Spells
4 [V10] AEther Vial
3 [MI] Worldly Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 1 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
SB: 1 [M11] War Priest of Thune
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

So the idea is that the deck plays out like your conventional Goblins list for the most part, aiming to either be very explosive when Lackey connects or grinding out games with Vial and Ringleaders. But there is a bonus element with Skirk Drill Sergeant + Worldly Tutor to net you a cheap Ringleader or Siege Gang. Worldly Tutor seems bad and it might very well be, I haven't tested it nearly enough, but I figured it could help us find the occasional Ringleader to get yourself back into the game.
The real power from Worldly Tutor however, lurks in the sideboard. You can catch an Omniscience player with their pants down by just tutoring for an Angel of Despair and the Energy Field/RiP combo is handled by War Priest of Thune and then a follow up Gaddock Teeg. Even TES is not spared as a Thalia, Gaddock or Ethersworn Cannonist can be fetched easily.
So you end up with a deck that has game against every major player in the format with the powerful sideboard and still maintains a pretty good game against Maverick and Tempo Thresh with the 9 removal spells preboard.

Curious to hear your opinions about this oddball Goblins list. Do note that list is purely theorycrafting, I do not claim it be to be the next Goblins list or anything, but found the idea too interesting to keep to myself.
Also please don't comment on the lack of Piledrivers and Warchiefs, I have been playing without them for like a year now and like the deck this way.

EDIT: Also note that Worldly Tutor has some nice synergy with Goblin Ringleader!

[jrw1985]

@ Mantis:

Skirk Drill Sergeant seems like one of those cards with an awesome ability that is just not efficient enough for Legacy. You need to pay 3 to use him, which is pretty much the same amount it costs to cast a card in your hand, but the card in your hand is guaranteed to be, you know, a card you're playing. Half the time you use SDS it will blank, meaning you spent 3 to mill 1 non-goblin into your gy. Well, milling 1 non-goblin has a negligible impact on whether you'll draw a goblin your next draw phase, and we don't run a GY strategy that could capitalize on those milled cards either. So half the time you're spending 3 to do nothing. Not too good in legacy.

There's also the fact that it's triggered by goblins dying, so to use it you'll have to keep mana open and not cast goblins from your hand. Now I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I know that this deck is built to capitalize on haste and explosive First Main Phases. So running a card that abandons that strategy in favor of a 50/50 chance for putting a random goblin in play seems ill advised. It doesn't fit with the tempo plan of the deck.

Then there's also the fact that he only has 1 ability. 1 expensive, conditional ability. Piledriver has one conditional ability (a much better, freer one) AND a static ability (Pro U). So you're choosing to run a 2-drop with 1 expensive, conditional ability over another 2-drop with more, less conditional, less expensive, better abilities (and I can say with certainty the Piledriver's abilities are better because half the time SDS's ability Doesn't Do Anything).

[Darklingske]

Hi guys,

first post here in Goblins thread, but long time legacy player. Since the rise of RiP/Helm, I've given my pet deck Ichorid a little holiday and picked up Goblins to smash some face. Past weekend I took the little guys to my first tournament with them. Short report:

R1 Omniscience (0-2)
G1 he ponders and preordains during T1, 2 & 3 and combo's out T4. I attacked as aggresivly as possible, but couldn't kill him in time. He was @ 4 life.
G2 almost the same, but this time he S&T Omniscience into play and casts emrakul T4. I used the S&T to put stingscourger into play. Well, bad luck I guess...

R2 RUG (2-0)
G1 is over in 5 turns. He can't flip delver and I just flood the board with little green men.
G2 is even quicker GG. T2 chalice on 1, T3 RiP = GG

R3 Elves (2-0)
G1 is mine in a couple of minutes. He kept a no-mana hand after mulling to 5.
G2 doesn't take long neither. The elves he drops, I just burn them with Incinerator or Sharpshooter.

R4 ANT (2-1) (Teammate)
G1 was standard ANT. I die T3
I board Chalice & RiP.
G2 T1 chalice for 0 & vial, T2 RiP + piledriver from lackey, T3 Warchief + Piledriver + Chieftain= GG
G3 rinse and repeat.

R5 RUG (1-2)
I'm paired against a fellow teammate (again) and we both know what the other is playing and our playstyles. G1 is a fast one for me.
G2 I board in RiP, Pyroblast & chalice. I see no hate after mulling to 4 and die in a swift fashion. (Hands were: 5 land, Ringleader, Warchief - no lands - all lands - 2 lands, lackey, piledriver).
G3 I mull to 6. Every goblin that hit the board got burned and his delver flipped T4 only, but that was enough for him. I never saw a RiP and the lonely Chalice I had in my opener was countered.

R6 RiP/Helm control (Teammate)
This match will determine wich one goes into top 8. Unfortunately I have to play another teammate. G1 I manage to bring him to 6 but then he assembles Energy field & RiP and that is it for this game.
G2 I board in Pyroblast & Earwig Squad. T1 vial into T2 Lackey into T3 matron and prowl in Earwig to remove his wincons. He scoops and we're off to G3.
G3 is a faster version of G1. T2 he has Energy field, T3 RiP, T5 helm and activate.

I loved playing the little green men, but as long as RiP/Helm & Omniscience is a large portion of the meta over here, I'm not really inclined to repeat this. Unless someone knows how to resolve the enchantments problem? Oh, I'm playing a stock list mono-R MD, with SB:
3 RiP
1 Cage
3 Chalice
2 Pyroblast
1 Tuktuk scrapper
3 Pyroblast
1 Weirding
1 Earwig Squad

[Cleston]

I guess both against top and helm of obedience, we could be relying on pithing needle.

It is fast enough cause it drops before being discarded, buys us time until the opponent can deal with it, is a pro-active card that needs no mana being held up, and is flexible enough so you are covered against a bunch of different stuff.

For sure Krosan Grip prevents counterspells, but it also costs 3, being much slower, vulnerable to duress, and has the potential to keep you from playing your guys while holding up 3 mana.

[Lord Gibbo]

yesterday I made a Top8 in a 100 Players Tournament.
Rg List with 22 land 3 Pyldriver, 3 MWM and 2 Stingscourgers (I'll run only 1 next time).
Side:
3 Surgical
3 Relic
3 K Grip
3 Confusion in the rank
3 Pyrokinesis

T1: UW StonBlade 2-1
T2: Belcher 2-0 (he had a game lost for a mistake in his list)
T3: ANT 2-0
T4: Burn 2-0
T5: Pox 2-0
T6: BUG DelverShaman I.D.
T7: BUG DelverShaman I.D.

Top8: BUG DelverShaman 0-2 (never seen the 3rd Land in 2 games)

I'll give you More details as soon as possible.

[LeoCop 90]

Hello guys! I'm going to a tournament on sunday, and I know there will be a friend of mine that plays an Infect deck. This is the list he should play: http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/10356#143153
I know infect is not a common deck in legacy, but who can give me some advices to beat it ? I think this is a quite bad matchup for goblins....when i played against mono green infect i lost a lot of times, maybe with blue green i can have more chances.
The only thing that comes to my mind is that i could put more removal spells main deck, but then it would be a bad choice against other decks.

[jrw1985]

Hello guys! I'm going to a tournament on sunday, and I know there will be a friend of mine that plays an Infect deck. This is the list he should play: http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/10356#143153
I know infect is not a common deck in legacy, but who can give me some advices to beat it ? I think this is a quite bad matchup for goblins....when i played against mono green infect i lost a lot of times, maybe with blue green i can have more chances.
The only thing that comes to my mind is that i could put more removal spells main deck, but then it would be a bad choice against other decks.

I agree that Infect can be tricky. Hopefully you can just win by winning the dice roll an leading with a T1 Lackey, but in lieu of that you should probably stick to the following.

Wasteland and Port their Inkmoth Nexusesesesessss. Without their infecting Manland they're down to 11 threats. Save your spot removal for the creature cards and use your Wastes/Ports to keep their manlands down. Pithing Needle also works here.

Spot Removal: One of the problems with this MU is that they play a bunch of pump spells, while most of Goblin's removal is mediocre burn. Gempalm is a little too slow for killing a creature that's getting +6/+6 T3. Another problem is that Gobbos' mediocre removal plays right into Infect's plan. They attack you with the unblockable dork, you have 2 goblins in play and a Gempalm in hand so you decide to burn it out and save yourself the poison counters. They Invigorate it in response. Now you take more infect damage and failed to off a threat. Unless you're playing with Terminate this is a common situation in this MU. In order to use your burn against them effectively you'll need to be very careful with it. If they have an attacker that's going to get through and you have a burn spell, resist the urge to shoot first. Just let the damage through. If they have the pump spell they'll go for the W. Cast a Kinesis in response to the pump, don't let them respond to your Kinesis with a pump. Another good strategy is to burn their dorks on your turn. If they want to save them then they'll have to use pumps on your turn that will wear off when it comes time for them to Infect-attack on their turn. But basically it's very important to resist the urge to try and burn out an attacker that hasn't been pumped. If an attacker is going to get through just take the damage, then after damage use your removal. If it gets countered or their dork gets pumped that's OK. You can always cast more removal on your turn.

[ScatmanX]

Another good strategy is to burn their dorks on your turn.
I'd go with this. Make them waste a pump if they have it. Better than die in case they have 2.
Also, always block when you can, and don't try to burn anything after blockers are designed. Let your dude die. If he tries to pump his, then you can try to burn it. You have 30+ dudes, they don't. Trading 1for1 is not a bad thing.

[LeoCop 90]

Surely we should try to kill their creatures during our turn to make them waste a pump, and we should try to destroy or keep tapped their nexus. Blocking their creatures is really difficult because Blighted Agent is unblockable , Ichorclaw Myr gets pumped if blocked and Nexus flies. The only blockable creature is Glistener Elf , but remember that it will often have trample because of Rancor or Berserk.
I actually run a relatively small set of removals in my main deck ( 3 gempalms, 1 mogg fanatic, 1 sharpshooter and 1 siege gang ) and all of them are too slow and weak against infect, except mogg fanatic. I should put in some lightning bolts/tarfires, or warren weirding/swords to plowshares if i am going to splash,but i don't know if i want to change my deck for this particular matchup only.
I think that also the discard strategy with cabal therapy can be useful, against infect like against any other combo deck.

Another question : would you side out Aether Vial against infect ? I find it really too slow, and i think i would side it out also against the green/blue version of infect.

[ScatmanX]

Another question : would you side out Aether Vial against infect ? I find it really too slow, and i think i would side it out also against the green/blue version of infect.
Yes. The same way I side it out against Elves or agroo Affinity.

[movingtonewao]

is there still a reason to play mono red in the current environment?

[Sasan]

if you run Anarchy in the sideboard against Moat, Humility, Rip/Helm Combo and a Chieftain main vs Engineered Plague then mono red is absolutely viable. but do not run fetchlands ;)

But Krosan Grip gets the Job done, too and is uncounterable. So if you do not fear Stifle splash green for Tin Street Hooligan, Grips and/or Grudges.

[fimo]

But Krosan Grip gets the Job done, too and is uncounterable. So if you do not fear Stifle splash green for Tin Street Hooligan, Grips and/or Grudges.

What is the matter about stifle and fetchlands? Would you rather get your matron/ringleader stifled? If they are playing stifle they have plenty of targets against goblins anyway, stifle should not influence your decision to splash colors.

[GoboLord]

What is the matter about stifle and fetchlands? Would you rather get your matron/ringleader stifled? If they are playing stifle they have plenty of targets against goblins anyway, stifle should not influence your decision to splash colors.

Well, things don't work that way...
Having fetchlands means that they can trade a cc1 spell to rob one of your manasources. This isn't necessarily a problem as long as you can still bring your goblins into play e.g. with Vial or by drawing more lands. However, if they countered your Vial in early turns you are guite fucked. In this position you are playing a game that you can hardly win: You cast a creature, they cast a creature. WIthout Vial they can easily restrict your creature-output to 1 creature per turn. Thats when you start losing the game...
So Stifle is only a problem if you don't have Vial and/or more lands. Lands win this MU, thats an important thing to realize when making judgements about the usefulness of Stifle. I'm not saying that they will always use Stifle on fetchlands - neither do I say they will never do it. Things aren't black-and-white.

[ScatmanX]

Omg. 1st part of Brazils Nationals was today. Beat 3 SnT (Sneak, Omni and Sneak), Lands, UW Energy/Rip/Miracle, and a weird deck with Faithless Looting, Hakoon, KotR and weird stuff. Lost to Maverick and ID with Canadian to a 6-1-1 into 4th place.
Tomorrow morning will play Sneak and Tell on top 8 of 5 games. Wish me luck.

[jrw1985]

Omg. 1st part of Brazils Nationals was today. Beat 3 SnT (Sneak, Omni and Sneak), Lands, UW Energy/Rip/Miracle, and a weird deck with Faithless Looting, Hakoon, KotR and weird stuff. Lost to Maverick and ID with Canadian to a 6-1-1 into 4th place.
Tomorrow morning will play Sneak and Tell on top 8 of 5 games. Wish me luck.

Dude, that's Awesome! I also played in a tourney today (though nowhere near as big a deal as Brazilian Nationals) and I also had a lot of success, going 3-0-2 in the Swiss and losing in a Goblin mirror match in the Finals, 5-1-2 overall and I picked up a Scrubland for my efforts. I impressed a lot of people with my SnT>MWM>ETB Trigger>KGrip Omniscience play.

Best of luck in the Top 8!

[movingtonewao]

I impressed a lot of people with my SnT>MWM>ETB Trigger>KGrip Omniscience play.


*lost* how does this work?

[jrw1985]

*lost* how does this work?

I'm sandbagging a K-Grip with G2 up. My opponent casts Show and Tell. He puts in Omniscience. I put in and card with an ETB trigger (in this case MWM, but it could also have been Stingscourger, Matron, Ringleader, SGC, etc.) Omni and MWM are in play and the MWM EtB trigger is on the stack. My opponent has priority (it is his turn, after all) but he can't use Omniscience to cast non-Instants because these is something currently on the stack (the MWM EtB trigger). Priority passes to me so the EtB trigger can resolve, but while I have priority I cast KGrip on his Omniscience. He can't respond to the KGrip because of Split Second, Omni goes to the graveyard, the EtB trigger resolves, and priority passes back to my opponent with nothing to show for his SnT.

Voila.

[Sasan]

Omg. 1st part of Brazils Nationals was today. Beat 3 SnT (Sneak, Omni and Sneak), Lands, UW Energy/Rip/Miracle, and a weird deck with Faithless Looting, Hakoon, KotR and weird stuff. Lost to Maverick and ID with Canadian to a 6-1-1 into 4th place.
Tomorrow morning will play Sneak and Tell on top 8 of 5 games. Wish me luck.

rock it my friend :-)