[Deck] Goblins

[Ingot]

9. Thalia appears to be a a "win more" card in this deck. Between Rishadan Port and Wasteland, Goblins can already generate a pseudo Thalia effect already.


I haven't tried Thalia, guardian of Thraben yet, but considering it.
I'm a bit sceptical though, like the above quote.

Many players seem to mainboard her instead of Rishadan Port, why is that?
It seems to me that even with 8-7 colorless manasources, Thalia still is playable, especially with cavern of souls as a possible white source.
I like the idea of 3 Thalia along 3-4 Ports, enforcing mana denial as gameplan.
I don't like dropping Ports for Thalia however.

Is it possible that the main reason to drop port in a Thalia-build is Rest in peace?
Thalia can be played through 8 extra sources (caverns and vial), rest in peace cannot.
I guess that the main reason to drop port is to replace it with white manasources?

So basically my question is: Does the inclusion of Thalia and Rip force you to drop Port?
And if so, is the the advantage of both cards so great (in comparison to Port and Relic), that it justifies dropping Port?
White splash has disadvantages to take in consideration, it makes the manabase more vulnerable (also Rip sucks when you dont have W, where relic does not) and tightens deckspace (Thalia takes up cardspace where Port does not).

[Tokugawa]

MD Thalia cannot cooperate with:

Matron.
Ringleader.
Lackey.
Piledriver.
Warchief.
Incinerater.
And, thalia herself.

[jrw1985]

Many players seem to mainboard her instead of Rishadan Port, why is that?

Is it possible that the main reason to drop port in a Thalia-build is Rest in peace?

I guess that the main reason to drop port is to replace it with white manasources?

So basically my question is: Does the inclusion of Thalia and Rip force you to drop Port?
And if so, is the the advantage of both cards so great (in comparison to Port and Relic), that it justifies dropping Port?

I think Thalia is just more efficient than Port. For a paltry initial investment of W1 you make all your opponents' noncreature spells cost +1. This can be a major advantage as your opponent now needs to spend an additional X mana over the course of the game, where X is the number of non-creature spells they want to cast. The more noncreatures their deck is built around, the higher X is. But X is not the real measure of Thalia's impact, because another variable is also important to consider, and that's the numer of turns Y over which they plan on playing their spells. The real measure of Thalia's impact is X/Y, spells per turn. So Thalia is best against decks that want to cast many non-creature spells in a very short window (Combo). These decks want to spend the early turns scultping their hands, then they want to have one big turn where they go off. X is much higher than Y, so Thalia will really hamper these decks if they don't have an answer. G1 they usually don't. Against control decks Thalia's ability becomes less impressive. Y becomes larger since the control deck is playing to win a long game. The X/Y ratio shrinks; Thalia's utility shrinks along with it. Thalia's utility is also diminished against mid-range/tempo decks because they generally run more creatures (reducing X) and play longer games (Increasing Y) so the X/Y ratio falls.

How does Thalia's affect compare to Port's affect? Port's activated ability costs 2 (1 to activate + 1 for the Port itself) and denies your opponent the use of 1 mana or shuts down 1 utility land. Port is extremely flexible because you can activate it when you're ahead to keep your opponent behind, but you can also use it for mana as the game wears on and your opponent gets enough lands in play to make Port not matter anymore. Port's weakness is that it is very expensive and very slow. Over the course of a game Port will cost you 2X to use X times, and will only keep your opponent off of X mana (but not really though, since your opponent can always respond to Port by casting an Instant or Activating an ability). But Port's ability, unlike Thalia's, can be used to prevent your opponent from playing Creatures, which is super relevant when you're playing a battle of attrition on the ground. However, like Thalia, Port is a pretty weak mid-lategame topdeck.

Odds and ends comparison: Thalia and Port both weaken your manabase. Thalia requires you to run fetches and Duals. Port is a nonbasic itself that cannot produce colored mana. Both have alternative uses if their mana-denial affects don't work: Port taps for mana, Thalia swings for 2. Both cards thin your deck of goblins. Thalia because she just isn't a goblin, Port because it requires you to play more non-Goblin lands. Decks running 4 Ports usually run 24 lands. Decks with 3 Thalia MD usually run 22, though some have run 20. Both end up thinning your goblin count. Thalia is terrible in multiples. Port is pretty good in multiples, unless drawing multiple Ports is keeping you off RR mana. Thalia is better against fast decks. Port is better against Mid-Range Decks. Neither is especially impressive against control (though I give Port the edge because it can keep a control player off a color).

I wrote extensively earlier about playing Rwg without Port so I could run Thalia and TSH MD and RiP and KGrip SB. These cards seem to be the best answers to the scary cards in the format. RiP just shuts down the gy recursion game which so many decks are using for their CA now, and KGrip is a house against Equipment, Omniscience, and problematic enchantments (it's no Abrupt Decay though...).

Now running W doesn't force you to drop Port at all. It's very easy to build a Rw manabase that makes room for Port.
4 Waste
3 Port
4 Cavern
4 Mountain
2 Plateau
6 Fetch
Voila. So you can still use 3 Port (or more) in conjunction with 3 Thalia, but you will have a pretty low goblin count (A mere 30!).

RiP is certainly a better card than Relic. Not because there is anything wrong with Relic, but because for the same speed you can generate a much more powerful effect. RiP just turns off the graveyard. For the whole game. You don't need to keep mana open for it. You don't need to remember to activate it each turn. Relic is still cool because it replaces itself and is colorless, but RiP is otherwise a much stronger card.

So while Thalia and Port are pretty evenly matched RiP is clearly better than Relic. So favoring a W manabase accomodates RiP it makes sense to run Thalia and just cut Ports entirely. Make your manabase more splash-friendly.

[Fossil4182]

I haven't tried Thalia, guardian of Thraben yet, but considering it.
I'm a bit sceptical though, like the above quote.

Many players seem to mainboard her instead of Rishadan Port, why is that?
It seems to me that even with 8-7 colorless manasources, Thalia still is playable, especially with cavern of souls as a possible white source.
I like the idea of 3 Thalia along 3-4 Ports, enforcing mana denial as gameplan.
I don't like dropping Ports for Thalia however.

Is it possible that the main reason to drop port in a Thalia-build is Rest in peace?
Thalia can be played through 8 extra sources (caverns and vial), rest in peace cannot.
I guess that the main reason to drop port is to replace it with white manasources?

So basically my question is: Does the inclusion of Thalia and Rip force you to drop Port?
And if so, is the the advantage of both cards so great (in comparison to Port and Relic), that it justifies dropping Port?
White splash has disadvantages to take in consideration, it makes the manabase more vulnerable (also Rip sucks when you dont have W, where relic does not) and tightens deckspace (Thalia takes up cardspace where Port does not).

Thalia is still playable while using Rishadan Port, but it does weaken your mana base. If your list is running between 22 - 24 lands, then you're looking at 50% or more of your mana base being non-basic. This assumes it would run:

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
2-4 Plateau

Those numbers may be a bit off depending on the results testing or one's own preference. However in a 22 land list, that's 63% - 72% of your mana base being non-basic lands. That seems a bit high to me and may make the deck needlessly vulnerable to Wasteland and Stilfe. While RUG doesn't appear to be as popular as it was even three months ago, its still rather prominent. Additionally, Wasteland is still seeing a tremendous amount of play right now. Personally, I think a lot of decks are running very greedy manabases (just my observation). It depends on how vulnerable you think the mana base should be.

Regarding Rest in Peace. I never played with Thalia in Goblins while Rest in Peace was legal. I played the white splash much earlier (in the month or so following GenCon). You would probably want to run the maximum number of Plateau's in order to ensure that you could reliably cast Rest in Peace since you only have four Plateau and some number of fetchlands.

In addition to your point regarding the alternate methods of playing Thalia - I would only add that most of the Goblins in the deck only require one red mana to cast; so having a number of lands that don't produce red mana such as Rishadan Port and Wasteland isn't as terrible for this deck as it is for Merfolk (which a plethora of UU lords). However, one of the best lines of play for Goblins is the ability to cast multiple cards in rapid succession and overwhelm an opponent which you need a lot of red mana to do. So again, that's a question for testing.

I can't give you a definite answer to your final question as its a matter of preference. However, I would sum it up to you like this:

Adding white for Thalia and Rest in Peace gives you a sphere effect which is really beneficial in some match-ups and mediocre to terrible in others. Additionally, Rest in Peace is probably the best graveyard hate spell ever printed so having access to that is awesome. Getting these benefits comes at a cost. Namely, there is a decrease in the overall synergy of the deck with Thalia and Goblins can't reliably find her (unlike Maverick which can use Fauna Shaman to tutor her). Additionally, it weakens Goblins mana base opening it up to Stifle and greater vulnerability to Wasteland. Mono Red or another color splash can get access to the same sorts of effects as Thalia and Rest in Peace in the form of Thorn of Amethyst and Relic. While neither are direct replacements and in a lot instances not as powerful, they provide the same general effect and aren't strictly worse than their counterparts.

Personally, I dedicate 6 sideboard slots to combo two of which overlap with the six slots dedicated toward Graveyard hate:

4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction

I like my hate to be free if possible. I've debate cutting Surgical Extractions for Pyrostatic Pillar if Storm sees a resurgence. Relic of Progenitus was Tormod's Crypt for a while, but with the rise of Deathrite Shaman, Relic seems like the best choice.

I also prefer Relic over Rest in Peace in this archetype because of the cantrip ability and only costing one mana to cast.

Being able to effectively cycle Relic for two mana is really nice and is a great way to remove multiples from your hand. My experience has been that drawing the first Relic, I usually cast it and almost exclusively use the tap ability unless I need to remove both graveyards. If I draw a second Relic of Progenitus (and depending on game state), one can cast it and remove both graveyards and draw a card. This has the added benefit allowing the first Relic to better manage the graveyards. A lot of the time, I just sit with two Relics in play and its really difficult for decks to put more than two cards a turn into a graveyard. I also have the option of drawing up to two cards if I want to dig for more pressure or recover from something (like a resolved Deed).

My thought is that outside of a deck like Dredge or Reanimator, most decks that use the graveyard like RUG and BUG aren't going to board in graveyard hate to answer our graveyard hate. Or if they are, they're more likely to do it if they see Rest in Peace while most players will just attempt to play around Relic. Regardless, there's a moderate to high chance we'll end up with redundant graveyard hate at some point in the game. Relic of Progenitus is better than Rest in Peace in the sense that the card isn't dead if you topdeck it in the mid - late game and you already have a Relic of Progenitus in play. On the other hand, Rest in Peace is flat out redundant if one is in play and you draw a second; its a dead draw until they remove the current copy in play.

[Potdindy]

Quote:
"My thought is that outside of a deck like Dredge or Reanimator, most decks that use the graveyard like RUG and BUG aren't going to board in graveyard hate to answer our graveyard hate. Or if they are, they're more likely to do it if they see Rest in Peace while most players will just attempt to play around Relic. Regardless, there's a moderate to high chance we'll end up with redundant graveyard hate at some point in the game. Relic of Progenitus is better than Rest in Peace in the sense that the card isn't dead if you topdeck it in the mid - late game and you already have a Relic of Progenitus in play. On the other hand, Rest in Peace is flat out redundant if one is in play and you draw a second; its a dead draw until they remove the current copy in play."


Excellent desciptions of both...but would it not be true that against most decks that RIP is useful against, simply having one out is almost game over. So even if you have another, the first is the killer. Dredge, Reanimator, BUG, LOAM are all hit hard if not totally beaten by a resolved RIP and RUG Delver would take a big hit too. So against those decks, if you have one out successfully, you just win...whether or not you have another in hand.

[Ingot]

Thanks for the elaborate replies from everyone, much appreciated!

I do not doubt the power of both cards, but am concerned about the reliability of casting them with W.
Minor issue for Thalia, because she can also rely on cavern and vial, bigger issue for Rip, as there are 9-7 white manasources to cast it.
That's less than half (or even a third) of the total lands played.

My concern is being unable to cast Rip when needed, as you both need a W-source and Rip.
Against BUG and RUG, there is more time to draw both, and besides these remain fair decks which you still can defeat without hate.

But against bad match-ups like Reanimator, dredge or ANT, I need my hate to be superefficient.
Having to rely on hate + one of those 9-7 white manasources in hand seems an underestimated downside, especially against these bad combo-matchups, where you need to win fast, or hate fast.

What's the experience with Rip and the manabase against these matchups?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Went 2-3 today at a legacy gpt (more like 1-3 cause of one being a bye) with this list

Core 19
-1 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Tarfire
2 Mogg warmarshall
1 Siege gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Skirk Prospector
1 TukTuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Chieftan

4 Aether Vial

4 Mountain
4 Rishadon Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Bloodstain Mired
2 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga

Sideboard
4 Pyroblast
3 Pyrokenisis
3 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle

List has served me well so far (today was the first time I didn't at least 'break even' so to speak), and I feel most of the matches I lost were to sloppy play on my part but was wanting to see if there is a way I can improve my deck. Meta is kind of all over the place at times

[fimo]

Went to a tournament yesterday with about 50 players. I ended up 9th in standings just missing the top8, annoying. I played naya goblins, green and white were for 1 TSH MD, 3 RIP SB and 2 Krosan grip SB.
R1- Zombardment: 1-1. We went into time I had lethal on board the third game but I didn t get one more turn to actually kill him. RIP was completely broken here.
R2- UWr standstill control. 1-1. Again, the time was up so we couldn t finish game 3. He was ahead anyway.
R3- GW aggro. 2-0. He had some weird list, I was all over the place.
R4- MUD. 2-1. He locks me out of the game G1 with an early wurmcoil. I had a vial and lackey stuck in my hand due to a T1 chalice@1. I saw 2 lands the whole game one of which got wastelanded. G2 and G3 an early lackey and pily put too much pressure on the board.
R5- RBW in a controllish list. 2-0. G1 he played an artifact that destroys the lowest costing permanent at the beginning of his upkeep. He kept me locked a while but then I started chaining matrons and ringleaders so that I didn t mind to sacrifice a permanent per turn. G2 I was ahead from the beginning thanks to a T1 lackey.

Take home messages:
- this was the first time I played RIP. I felt so much in control when it was on the board. It doesn t require the thinking of the rest of the GY hate. You cannot misplay it. You play it and then you focus on playing goblins properly. Either they deal with it or the are screwed, very powerful card I will play again with it.
- Next time I want to try out punishing goblins. What is the right number of punishing fire and groove of the burnwillows?

[Ace/Homebrew]

It doesn t require the thinking of the rest of the GY hate. You cannot misplay it.

This is the best explanation and reasoning for playing RIP that I've read.


What is the right number of punishing fire and groove of the burnwillows?

Probably 3 PF. Although I would lose the white splash if you go this route...

Merry Christmas all!

[LeoCop 90]

I know that i shouldn't use this topic to say random things, but I absolutely have to tell you that today I did a booster draft and picked a FOIL CAVERN OF SOULS ! Now I just have to decide if to sell it or play it in my deck ...
Merry Christmas!

[phazonmutant]

Excellent desciptions of both...but would it not be true that against most decks that RIP is useful against, simply having one out is almost game over. So even if you have another, the first is the killer. Dredge, Reanimator, BUG, LOAM are all hit hard if not totally beaten by a resolved RIP and RUG Delver would take a big hit too. So against those decks, if you have one out successfully, you just win...whether or not you have another in hand.

I suspect you may be overestimating the impact RiP has against bug and Dredge. From personal experience playing Bug against uw miracles, rip is pretty underwhelming compared to Relic. A smart relic player can shut of Shaman pretty effectively and Abrupt Decaying relic puts bug down a card.

If you think rip is gg for Dredge, please take a look in the dredge thread. They're scared of the card, but they always have answers for it, and it comes down t2 - one more turn for therapy to strip it from your hand. The key is (as always) dropping your hate and then killing them before they can find their answer.

[B-rad]

So with all this RiP talk I was starting to think about LotV again instead of it. It has a few perks as that its uncounterable and can't be abruptly decayed. Also casting a RiP turn 2 on the draw is sometimes too slow vs dredge. Did some testing against Shardless BUG tonight(preboard) with a list that's up to 3 chieftain and only 1 warchief with 2 Tarfire and it was OK. I went 6-4 in a 10 game set. This version seems more all in than I like to play but maybe that's a necessity these days with BUG having such explosive draws. I'm going to try black splash instead of green for the next week leading up to the SCG legacy open in Columbus and see how that goes. Ill let you guys know how the testing goes and what list I end up on.

[GreenShorty]

So with all this RiP talk I was starting to think about LotV again instead of it. It has a few perks as that its uncounterable and can't be abruptly decayed.

I've been thinking about black leyline also, but I'm not a particular fan of the black splash. I'm inclined to test it as a 4 of, but without the black splash to support it.

The way I see it, leylines are only useful when you keep a hand with at least a copy of it, so it doesn't matter if you can hardcast it or not. Just think: would it really matter that you could hardcast a graveyard hate as slow as leyline? It also asks for BB, so you must also consider that you won't be able to hardcast it on turn four (best scenario).

What do you guys think?

Btw, the reason behind my testings would be to open some sideboard slots. There's a significant ammount of graveyard-based decks around my meta, and I'm currently forced to use at least 5-6 pieces of gy hate (relic + cage). Although LoTV forces me to mull agressively, It allows me to fight both the tarmogoyf/mongoose package and those annoying Ionas, Eleshs and such, and for free.

[Sasan]

Leyline does not stop our GY from growing so their Goyfs are still 2/3 or 3/4 and Deathrite has cards for his abilities. So no, Leyline is a bad idea.

[Avatara]

Has anyone ever considered Firebolt? It kills Deathrite, Stoneforge etc. for R and can be used again (flashback) in the mid-late game for 4R. It's a burn card with potential for card-advantage; something goblins loves.

[jrw1985]

Has anyone ever considered Firebolt?

Nope.

If you really want to run removal that isn't goblin-shaped Lighting Bolt or Forked Bolt or Pyrokinesis are all better options than Firebolt. You'll probably never get to the 5 mana you need to flash it back anyway.

[Avatara]

Nope.

If you really want to run removal that isn't goblin-shaped Lighting Bolt or Forked Bolt or Pyrokinesis are all better options than Firebolt. You'll probably never get to the 5 mana you need to flash it back anyway.

The three damage from Lightning Bolt was only relevant vs Nacatl when Zoo was big. I haven't seen anyone play it ever since. Of course we'll eventually get to five mana... goblins plays a lot of long matches. If this wasn't the case we wouldn't need the Ringleader Matron engine at all; because being all in would be better.

Advantages when compared to Lightning Bolt:

Fire bolt can kill up to two x/2 creatures (card advantage), can kill most relevant creatures that lightning bolt can also kills, has more reach in the late game (4), can be played after being discarded.

Disadvantages when compared to Lightning Bolt:

It can't kill a x/3 creature in the early-mid game, sorcery speed, less reach in the early-mid game

[LeoCop 90]

i want to give a suggestion too... what about Leyline of Sanctity as combo hate ? it seems strong against ANT,TES,belcher,High Tide,Burn, Helm of obedience and probably other decks that don't come to my mind.
About grave hate, It's surely a problem that Leyline of the void doesn't affect our graveyard. But the fact that it can't be abrupt decayed is relevant.
Aniway, if you want to run leylines i would suggest like i was doing some time ago to run also Serum Powder. Something like :
4 leyline of sanctity
4 leyline of the void
2 serum powder
2-3 pyrokinesis
2-3 krosan grips

of course with a green splash for grips , seems ok to me.
Or if you want something against show and tell you can just cut kinesis or grips and add some angels of despair or REB.

[jrw1985]

So with all this RiP talk I was starting to think about LotV again instead of it. It has a few perks as that its uncounterable and can't be abruptly decayed. Also casting a RiP turn 2 on the draw is sometimes too slow vs dredge. Did some testing against Shardless BUG tonight(preboard) with a list that's up to 3 chieftain and only 1 warchief with 2 Tarfire and it was OK. I went 6-4 in a 10 game set. This version seems more all in than I like to play but maybe that's a necessity these days with BUG having such explosive draws. I'm going to try black splash instead of green for the next week leading up to the SCG legacy open in Columbus and see how that goes. Ill let you guys know how the testing goes and what list I end up on.

I used to be in camp Leyline but have since left for camp RiP. While it is cool that Leyline is uncounterable, un Abrubtable and all that jazz, it is Not Cool as a topdeck. I'm not saying anything here that we all don't already know, but it stands to be reiterated. Leyline makes your deck worse when you don't have one in your starting hand. This leads to you keeping playable hands without it (Stingscourger hand against Reanimator, MWM/Fanatic hand against Dredge) and then losing like an asshole when you topdeck Leyline t2. It's worth remembering that you don't always need hate to beat GY decks, so siding unplayable cards can turn a winnable hand into a losing one.

My largest critique of Leyline is that it just isn't playable against very many decks. The only reason to run it is to have a GY hate effect that's faster than the fasted GY deck. The fastest GY decks are Dredge, Reanimator, and some Storm decks/draws. Those decks just aren't very big players right now. And while Dredge and Storm Can have explosive T1/2 plays they Don't Consistently win T1/2. Because they don't consistently win T1/2 I don't see a good reason for playing Leyline. RiP can still hose T2/3 wins by all those decks and it also has the considerable advantage of hosing RUG Delver, 'Goyf, and it's just better in general against slow GY decks.

[Final Fortune]

Has anyone ever considered Firebolt? It kills Deathrite, Stoneforge etc. for R and can be used again (flashback) in the mid-late game for 4R. It's a burn card with potential for card-advantage; something goblins loves.

Post Deathrite Shaman, I think Tarfire is probably the card that you're really looking for here.

[chags]

How good is Skirk Prospector? I get that you can use him in mana light hands in order to keep the effects of mana screw at bay and there are also times where you can just dump your hand on the board with him but most of the times I've drawn him in my limited testing he has been useless. I'm playing white with Thalia x3 MD and I'm trying to also make room for a tarfire or two to kill deathrites and Stoneforge Mystics. When trying to consider what to cut Prospector is one of the first things that came to mind, opinions?

My list is geared toward the modo meta which consists of UW Blade decks, BUG decks, Storm, and some Death and Taxes from what I've seen. Here is what I'm running:

2 Plateau
4 Mountain
3 Wasteland (budget, will get a 4th)
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls

3 Thalia
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin LAckey
1 Tarfire
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 MWM
1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incenrator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-gang Commander

SB:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Disenchant
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tarfire
1 Umezawa's jitte
2 Shattering Spree
2 Stingscourger

Thoughts on SB are shattering spree is played due to affinity being one of the cheaper decks on modo and it helps against batterskull, jitte is there for mirror as well as burn and grindy aggro decks, stingscourgers are for show and tell and reanimate decks, tarfire for deathrites and SFMs, disenchants for engineered plague as well as jitte/batterskull, RIP for BUG decks and any kind of gy based deck, and the goblin chieftain is for engineered plague. I'd prefer a 4th Thalia in the sb over something but I don't currently have one.

Any critiques would be greatly appreciated, just please keep in mind this list is geared toward the online meta specifically.

[Pee-Dee-2]

Did anyone test Sparksmith against Shaman an co? The Jundplayers tell, that that is a card they don't like! In Germany this choice is in discussion!

[jrw1985]

Did anyone test Sparksmith against Shaman an co? The Jundplayers tell, that that is a card they don't like! In Germany this choice is in discussion!

Sparksmith seems like a decent option for board control. He's probably best when used with lotsa haste-lords and some MWMs (both to up Sparky's damage and to eat up damage chump-blocking). I'm considering finally giving him a shot. He seems like a strong option considering how Mid-Range the Legacy Meta is becoming.

As an aside: Where the fuck are the Goblin spoilers for Gatecrash? I'm seeing plenty of classic creature-types/hybrids but no Goblins yet. RG is getting some love AND they've printed another Tin Street card. Hope or Tease?

[trollking21]

has anyone considered zo-zu the punisher he fits with the mana denial theme but more immportantly he makes fetches into lava axes (2 to play the fetch 1 to sac 2 to find the land) I've been lurking on this thread and am going to use goblins as my first legacy deck so i may be missing some reason zo-zu is bad for us
core...
4xGempalm Incinerator
1xGoblin Chieftain
4xGoblin Piledriver
3xMogg War Marshal
1xStingscourger
2xZo-Zu the Punisher
Land
4xCavern of Souls
11xMountain
4xRishadan Port
4xWasteland

[magicmerl]

How good is Skirk Prospector? I get that you can use him in mana light hands in order to keep the effects of mana screw at bay and there are also times where you can just dump your hand on the board with him but most of the times I've drawn him in my limited testing he has been useless. I'm playing white with Thalia x3 MD and I'm trying to also make room for a tarfire or two to kill deathrites and Stoneforge Mystics. When trying to consider what to cut Prospector is one of the first things that came to mind, opinions?
He's untouchable to me. His main uses for me are to stop Jitte/Batterskull, and to combo kill them with Sharpshooter/SGC (which is nice vs a moat). Pretty good vs dredge too, if you see that.

Sometimes he ramps you into a T2 Warchief like the worst lotus petal in the world, but that's horrible.

I think that Prospector is a much better card vs Stoneforge than the alternatives.

Here are my MD differences from you:
- 2 Goblin Chieftain
- 2 MWM
+ 1 Wasteland
+ 1 Skirk Prospector
+ 1 Gempalm Incinerator
+ 1 Goblin Piledriver

[raindrainxi]

How good is Skirk Prospector? I get that you can use him in mana light hands in order to keep the effects of mana screw at bay and there are also times where you can just dump your hand on the board with him but most of the times I've drawn him in my limited testing he has been useless. I'm playing white with Thalia x3 MD and I'm trying to also make room for a tarfire or two to kill deathrites and Stoneforge Mystics. When trying to consider what to cut Prospector is one of the first things that came to mind, opinions?



He's untouchable to me. His two main uses are to stop Jitte/Batterskull, and to combo kill them with Sharpshooter/SGC.

Sometimes he ramps you into a T2 Warchief like the worst lotus petal in the world, but that's horrible.

I think that Prospector is a much better card vs Stoneforge than the alternatives.


I have won several crucial matches against Esperblade/Stoneblade varieties on the wings of the Prospector that I wouldn't have otherwise. He is an excellent card for these matches (and as magicmerl said excellent combo with Shooter) although if you don't expect much Jitte/Batterskull then he is certainly replaceable. So with what you described you aim to achieve, I wouldn't remove them and remove Stingscourger MD instead.

[magicmerl]

Many players seem to mainboard her instead of Rishadan Port, why is that?
It seems to me that even with 8-7 colorless manasources, Thalia still is playable, especially with cavern of souls as a possible white source.
I like the idea of 3 Thalia along 3-4 Ports, enforcing mana denial as gameplan.
I don't like dropping Ports for Thalia however.

Is it possible that the main reason to drop port in a Thalia-build is Rest in peace?
Thalia can be played through 8 extra sources (caverns and vial), rest in peace cannot.
I guess that the main reason to drop port is to replace it with white manasources?

So basically my question is: Does the inclusion of Thalia and Rip force you to drop Port?
And if so, is the the advantage of both cards so great (in comparison to Port and Relic), that it justifies dropping Port?
White splash has disadvantages to take in consideration, it makes the manabase more vulnerable (also Rip sucks when you dont have W, where relic does not) and tightens deckspace (Thalia takes up cardspace where Port does not).
I think that this Thalia vs Port discussion is missing the point somewhat.

I think that Thalia only became an inclusion in Goblins when Cavern of Souls gave the deck a blood transfusion and made us a deck to beat. Not before, even though Thalia was available before Cavern was released. Cavern of Souls is so powerful that it is warping the deck around it (since we want to be the best cavern deck in the format). Before that, I struggled vs Force of Will decks. Now I struggle vs combo decks. :)

Port became worse because of Cavern of Souls, NOT because of Thalia (we would run both if we could). Not having red mana that could be used for Gempalm Incinerator and Siege Gang Commander is a real thing. We can only really afford 8 'colourless' lands for our ability activations.

We can easily add the fetch/dual combo that defines legacy to our manabase basically for free, and along with Cavern this makes splashing for Thalia very viable.

There's a kind of comparison to be made between Port and Thalia, but not much of one, since they really want to be played in the same deck together in a mana denial strategy. Thalia really socks it to the decks that want to play more than one spell per turn. Port socks it to the decks that you are wanting to colour-screw.

[DragoFireheart]

I still remember people telling me that Cavern of Souls wouldn't revive Goblins. LOL!

So how much of a problem are permanent road blocks like Humlity/E-Plague/Moat are for us? Do we still want a green/white splash to deal with them or is it not worth it?

[Snap_Keep]

If you expect those cards in numbers then the splash is worth it. Yes, Moat, Humility and Engineered Plague are all really strong against Goblins, but they are not unbeatable.

The most common splash is already white for Thalia so we have SB options available to us... I think you are asking the wrong question. The white splash is common place now, it is whether the SB slots are worth it or not, and again, this is all dependent on what you expect to play against.

This has all been discussed ad nauseum so if next time you would read back a few pages it will help to keep this thread uncluttered and full of new/useful discussion.

[Ace/Homebrew]

zo-zu

Please report back on this. I'd be interested to hear your findings.
I suspect 1 of him is more than enough (legendary) and I fear that by the time he gets online your opponent can play around him...

He's going to be a dead slot against any form of combo, from ANT to S+T to Dredge
The only decks were he won't be just a worse Sulfuric Vortex would be against 3-color non-basic land decks and control.

He's also not great "right now" because splashing white is in vogue.

[trollking21]

Please report back on this. I'd be interested to hear your findings.
I suspect 1 of him is more than enough (legendary) and I fear that by the time he gets online your opponent can play around him...

He's going to be a dead slot against any form of combo, from ANT to S+T to Dredge
The only decks were he won't be just a worse Sulfuric Vortex would be against 3-color non-basic land decks and control.

He's also not great "right now" because splashing white is in vogue.

I'll try but i wont be able to test until i the next semester starts and i go back to college as thats where the legacy group is so itll be about 2 weeks

[Final Fortune]

I think that this Thalia vs Port discussion is missing the point somewhat.

I think that Thalia only became an inclusion in Goblins when Cavern of Souls gave the deck a blood transfusion and made us a deck to beat. Not before, even though Thalia was available before Cavern was released. Cavern of Souls is so powerful that it is warping the deck around it (since we want to be the best cavern deck in the format). Before that, I struggled vs Force of Will decks. Now I struggle vs combo decks. :)

Port became worse because of Cavern of Souls, NOT because of Thalia (we would run both if we could). Not having red mana that could be used for Gempalm Incinerator and Siege Gang Commander is a real thing. We can only really afford 8 'colourless' lands for our ability activations.

We can easily add the fetch/dual combo that defines legacy to our manabase basically for free, and along with Cavern this makes splashing for Thalia very viable.

There's a kind of comparison to be made between Port and Thalia, but not much of one, since they really want to be played in the same deck together in a mana denial strategy. Thalia really socks it to the decks that want to play more than one spell per turn. Port socks it to the decks that you are wanting to colour-screw.

I don't understand this obsession with Thalia in Goblins, we're not winning the Storm match up with her or with out her and it's more important to concentrate on beating aggro-control and control decks with actual Goblins - not playing Force of Will means you have to accept match losses vs certain archetypes in order to have over a 50% matchup vs Force of Will -

[B-rad]

I don't understand this obsession with Thalia in Goblins, we're not winning the Storm match up with her or with out her and it's more important to concentrate on beating aggro-control and control decks with actual Goblins - not playing Force of Will means you have to accept match losses vs certain archetypes in order to have over a 50% matchup vs Force of Will -

^ that is basically the conclusion I've come too. I tried her in the SB for a couple of small tournaments and I've never really wanted to board her in vs anything except combo and I feel like we have better options. Maybe it's because she's just not my style but I don't find her to be that game changing

[raindrainxi]

Maybe it's because she's just not my style but I don't find her to be that game changing

This is it here. It all just depends on your playstyle. Thalia is just inherently available with the W splash, so with RIP White splash is beneficial right now, no big deal. Just like when the B splash was appropriate with the meta, we ponder the inclusion of non-goblin shaped spells i.e. Thoughtseize, Therapy, etc. It just depends with your playstyle.

[Ingot]

Port became worse because of Cavern of Souls, NOT because of Thalia (we would run both if we could). Not having red mana that could be used for Gempalm Incinerator and Siege Gang Commander is a real thing. We can only really afford 8 'colourless' lands for our ability activations.


Good point, I never thought of cavern of souls as an argument in this.



So while Thalia and Port are pretty evenly matched RiP is clearly better than Relic.

Although it's already fully discussed, I have very good experiences with relic, making me hesitant to drop it.
Obviously, having Rip in play is better, but getting it in play is harder, requiring W (limited W-manasources), and costing 2 (more vulnerable to discard and daze).
Relic's a cantrip, which is a big deal in my opinion, it negates the dilution of your goblins.
For instance, I do side them in against Maverick, where I wouldn't side in Rip (because the card-disadvantage of siding Rip in does not offset the advantage of emptying the yard in this matchup, in my opinion).
Against Bug it hits the yard, and offsets being hymned.

I started running 2 relics in the main, because grave-hate is relevant in so many matchups, and freeing sideboard space for other cards.
It's like Thalia, being preboard hate, but against graveyards.
And you always have the cantrip, in worst case its like cycling gempalm against a creatureless decks.

Still testing this though, but for the moment I like it.

[FoxBlade]

has anyone considered zo-zu the punisher he fits with the mana denial theme but more immportantly he makes fetches into lava axes (2 to play the fetch 1 to sac 2 to find the land) I've been lurking on this thread and am going to use goblins as my first legacy deck so i may be missing some reason zo-zu is bad for us

No... I haven't actually considered him. For me it would be a question of what would I cut to fit him into my list and assuming I did cut something, would his inclusion be worth it?

I think he's obviously not worth playing if you're splashing, but in mono-red he looks like he might be pretty good. I'd like to see how you do if you test him. I might give him a shot if I have some time.

[L10]

I use to play a one-off Zo-Zu in my SB on my mono-red build when Maverick and Lands.dec were popular in my meta. I do not recommend playing him in the MB though, because he is a dead cards in many cases, and can even hurt us because most of us plays 22-24 lands, more lands than most decks. Try him out at the SB. He is good against any three-colored decks (except RUG Delver), decks with KotR, Lands.dec, and Loam.dec.

[magicmerl]

Maybe it's because she's just not my style but I don't find her to be that game changing
An additional problem with Thalia is that her effect on the game is unseen. You don't know about the spells your opponent *isn't* casting. They just seem to durdle, and then you win. Unless you are testing with a good player and discuss each game afterwards (and about which plays mattered, different lines of play etc), it can be hard to see her effect on the game. It's the same as a combo deck. Why on earth would they run Thoughtseize? It just takes a slot that could be spent on more acceleration or draw/tutoring. But it turns out that disrupting the opponent is pretty good.

It's really easy to see how powerful Lackey, Warchief, Ringleader etc are in a goldfish sit. But cards like Thalia and Prospector are powerful because of how they interact with the opponent.

[jrw1985]

I don't understand this obsession with Thalia in Goblins, we're not winning the Storm match up with her or with out her and it's more important to concentrate on beating aggro-control and control decks with actual Goblins - not playing Force of Will means you have to accept match losses vs certain archetypes in order to have over a 50% matchup vs Force of Will -

Thalia has helped me beat the piss outta many a combo deck at this point, Storm and otherwise. MD she will steal G1 since your opponent probably won't have an answer. Post-board you can bring in more combo hate (Chalice) and have more options for stalling out Combo while you get yer beatdown on. And if your MU is one where she won't be of use, just side her out G2/3.


Although it's already fully discussed, I have very good experiences with relic, making me hesitant to drop it.
Obviously, having Rip in play is better, but getting it in play is harder, requiring W (limited W-manasources), and costing 2 (more vulnerable to discard and daze).
Relic's a cantrip, which is a big deal in my opinion, it negates the dilution of your goblins.
For instance, I do side them in against Maverick, where I wouldn't side in Rip (because the card-disadvantage of siding Rip in does not offset the advantage of emptying the yard in this matchup, in my opinion).
Against Bug it hits the yard, and offsets being hymned.

I started running 2 relics in the main, because grave-hate is relevant in so many matchups, and freeing sideboard space for other cards.
It's like Thalia, being preboard hate, but against graveyards.
And you always have the cantrip, in worst case its like cycling gempalm against a creatureless decks.

Still testing this though, but for the moment I like it.

The fact that Relic replaces itself is huge, as is the fact that you can run it off a MonoR build. The pros and cons of comparing Relic and RiP are difficult to suss out though. Relic is more reliably cast, but it might have 0 effect on the game if you need to tap out and your opponent destroys it. RiP has a better overall effect. In fact it has the best overall effect of any graveyard hate card. And it's kinda idiot-proof to play. How'd that old infomercial go? Set it, and forget it! That's RiP. Relic needs to be activated at the correct time, which also means your opponent can goad you into activating it or force your hand.

As far as diluting the Goblin count you're correct that Relic does it less by cantriping. But RiP provides implicit CA also. For instance, you will never trade a Goblin for a Goyf when RiP is around. With Relic, you need to let a Goyf eat a Goblin first in order to kill Goyf with a Relic activation. This means you might have to sacrifice a few goblin cards before casting Relic. This opens up the possibility that your opponent will have a counterspell for the Relic, making your attack ill-advised. But that's the only way to make Relic effective in a Goyf MU. RiP is easier to cast pre-combat in this scenario, and even though it doesn't replace itself it does save you a goblin card that can now attack into a 0/1 Goyf rather than a 4/5 Goyf.

[Lejay]

Thalia has helped me beat the piss outta many a combo deck at this point, Storm and otherwise. MD she will steal G1 since your opponent probably won't have an answer. Post-board you can bring in more combo hate (Chalice) and have more options for stalling out Combo while you get yer beatdown on. And if your MU is one where she won't be of use, just side her out G2/3.
The problem with that paragraph is that you could replace "Thalia" by "pyrostatic pillar" or "chalice of the void" it would be almost the same. I tested Thalia and it is worse than cabal therapy against any deck except storm. And cabal therapy still gets you wins against that deck too. I'm not even talking about high tide which can combo through Thalia while cabal is one of the worst cards for him out of a deck that can sacrifice it so easily. The fact that Thalia is only better against an archetype that oscillates between 3 and 4 % of the metagame means you don't want it as a main deck card (which means not at all since you probably don't want a triple splash).

[Sasan]

That is not true considering Chalice vs Thalia: The Storm player can easily play around Chalice but without a removal Thalia means GG.

Thalia is as effective as Pillar in the Storm MU, true. But Pillar is a limited card and cannot be boarded in vs Lets say SNT decks.

I agree that Thalia is not MD material but the best combo hate a sideboard that wants to have an answer for all combo MUs could ask for.

Remember that you only need one Plateau in the MD to support her as she has synergy with Caverns and Vial.

Thalia has a clock and slows down the combo player. What else could you ask for?

[Lejay]

At no point I said Thalia wasn't one of the best storm hate, sure it is. But again everytime I look at storm stats it's 3-4% of the metagame. I'll repeat that, 3-4% of the metagame. Cabal therapy discards any sweepers but terminus (and you could name brainstorm), deals very nicely with stoneforge, combos with stingscourger, and finally increases your combo match-ups. And probably far more against show and tell than Thalia.

[Sasan]

Storm will rise as BUG has an awful MU vs Storm.

Cabal Therapy is nice but you need at least 2-3 Badlands to support it fast enough. You don't have room for Ports then. But Ports are a must in the current meta.

[Einherjer]

Storm will rise as BUG has an awful MU vs Storm.
Which BUG deck?

Greetings

[Lejay]

Cabal Therapy is nice but you need at least 2-3 Badlands to support it fast enough. You don't have room for Ports then. But Ports are a must in the current meta.
Well I'll agree with you on the first point. You definitely can't play ports+souls+enough black sources. But port ceased being good enough in the legacy metagame long ago, current format has become very fast. I definitely see more interest in playing cabals. What do you want to deal with using ports ? Storm ? Tempo decks ? That would be a bit of a joke. Miracle has 1 mana wraths and is seeing less and less play. People play DRS also. It's very marginally good versus show and tell as 3 mana is easy to catch even against port when you run fetchlands and sol lands.
It's good versus enchantress. I don't thing that's a concern.

[jrw1985]

The problem with that paragraph is that you could replace "Thalia" by "pyrostatic pillar" or "chalice of the void" it would be almost the same. I tested Thalia and it is worse than cabal therapy against any deck except storm. And cabal therapy still gets you wins against that deck too. I'm not even talking about high tide which can combo through Thalia while cabal is one of the worst cards for him out of a deck that can sacrifice it so easily. The fact that Thalia is only better against an archetype that oscillates between 3 and 4 % of the metagame means you don't want it as a main deck card (which means not at all since you probably don't want a triple splash).

I don't really know how to argue with someone that says Pyrostatic Pillar is almost the same as Thalia... Cuz, ya know, Pillar isn't playable.

As far as CT is concerned, it's a pretty weak card in a Goblin deck. We can't really abuse its sac effect (like Nic Fit and Rector Omniscience could) and the first CT is always cast blind since we don't run other discard effects or Probes. So if you want to compare CT to Thalia you need to recognize that CT is a 1:2 most of the time, that is reduces your clock instead of speeding it up, and that your opponent can always just Brainstorm away your obvious CT targets.


Storm will rise as BUG has an awful MU vs Storm.

Yeah, I switched up my deck yesterday and dropped the W splash altogether to focus on making my deck better against midrang BUG-type decks. Lo and Behold, there were 5 Storm decks of the 16 at my local weekly last night! I still managed to go 3-1 though. My loss came to (you guessed it) Storm. My other 3 matches were against Food Chain combo (which Thalia is good against), Reanimator (which Thalia is good against), and UW Control (which Thalia is Eh against).

[Sasan]

BUG Delver has a terrible MU vs ANT. If you don't believe me, please try to win with BUG Delver vs a good ANT Player and come back to post your results.

If I talk about BUG in a Goblin thread I always mean BUG Delver. BUG control is not as hard as the Tempo MU for a Goblin player.

[wcm8]

BUG Delver has a terrible MU vs ANT.

:laugh:

:confused:

:really:

“The only matchups I'm currently afraid of are the Team America BUG decks." - Ari Lax

[nitewolf9]

SPAM anyone?

May I ask how often you won vs ANT with BUG Delver? Post your results.

Pretty much every time I've played against it in a tournament, 7 or 8 times for ANT specifically, many more for TES, but once in a top 4 match at a SCG open against Ari Lax. And I've been playing BUG delver longer than anyone. If the BUG player isn't a donkey it's terrible for ANT.

[wcm8]

May I ask how often you won vs ANT with BUG Delver? Post your results.

You realize that you're responding to Dan Signorigni?

ANT has an awful, awful, awful matchup against BUG, particularly the tempo versions. Like 30-70.

[Sasan]

I don't want to reply to that as this topic should not become a BUG thread. I just wanted to say that Thalia has many good applications vs Combo and I don't understand why this is even in question or compared to terrible narrow cards like pillar.


Entirely correct. This is a Goblins thread and not a BUG v. ANT thread. I've had to come in here twice today to clean things out. Please don't make me come back again. Let's stay on topic.

Hi-Val

[jrw1985]

OK back on topic:

Last night I played a MonoR deck with 2 Sparksmith main and 4 Relic in the sideboard. I played:
Food Chain Combo 2-1
UW Control 2-0
Reanimator 2-0
TES 1-2

When I look at these MUs I wish I had been playing a Rw deck with 3 Thalia MD. Thalia has been great against a host of random combo decks, of which I faced 3 last night. Had I been running Thalia I could have beaten Reanimator on my own merit (and not off the misplays my opponent made last night) and I also would have had 1 Karakas floating around to help deal with the fatties. Against TES I probably would have won the match. Thalia against UW doesn't make the MU significantly better or worse.

Playing a MonoR build for a night was fun, but it reminded me of the power the W splash provides which monoR can't duplicate. Unless my local meta completely switches back to Control, Delver, and Blade decks I'll plan on keeping Thalia around.

And let's not forget the badassery that is RiP.

[Chatto]

All this talking makes me go and try Thalia myself. Not sure if it works for me, but I'm willing to try (just to find out myself).

So, finally got myself two Taiga's for a Green-splash, now thinking of getting a second Plateau to go for Naya Goblins. My question is: could someone post a example list of Naya Goblins?

1) How many Duels would you run?
2) Port or no Port?

For reference, currently I am running this list:

Core (21)

1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Aether Vial

Other (17)

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Tarfire
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Piledriver

Mana (22)

1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
3 Arid Mesa
3 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard (15)

3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Chalice of the Void

Green-splash is mainly for Krosan Grip.

Thanks very much in advance!

[metamet]

OK back on topic:
Last night I played a MonoR deck with 2 Sparksmith main and 4 Relic in the sideboard. I played:
Food Chain Combo 2-1


Sparksmith was phenomenal against me and my Deathrites. As much as I want you to get rid of them, don't. :P

[namrufmot]

Just a quick local report from a 12 man tourney:

Land
3 Plateaus
3 Mountains
6 Fetches
4 Wastelands
4 Caverns
3 Ports

Goblins
4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Piledriver
4 Ringleader
4 Gempalm
3 MWM
2 Stings
1 Skirk
1 Shooter
1 SGC
1 TukTuk

Artifacts
4 Vial

SB
3 Chalice
3 Thalia
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Pyrokensis
1 REB

Notice I dropped out Krenko for another Sting - onlyl because I was told there were going to be 3-4 reanimator decks out of the ten - there wasn't though.

Round 1: Some weird version of Junk I assume. I fried tons of Shamans with Gempalms and PD had to be chumped by his goyfs. Game 1 me. Game two he drops a Plague mid game but I still get around it by matroning for 2/2 goblins and swinging. :D I win in 2.

Round 2: Goblins. I was lucky enough to drop a Shooter first that cleared his side. Then he takes control and gets me down to 4. I draw a MWM that buys me another turn. I topdeck a Ringleader and roll into Warchiefs and PDs. I swing. Game 1 me. Game two we both side in Pyros and was lucky enough to draw one first. I win in 2.

Round 3: BUG. More Shamans and Goyfs. Gempalm was a champ and I found myself Matroning for him quite often. I just slowly beat him down. Game 1 me. Game 2 was horrible for him. I kept a hand with a vial, mountain, and 2 Wastes. I see he doesn't drop a land turn 3 so I began to Waste him. He draws a land and I draw my third Waste. I actually apologized before I Wasted his third and only land. :D I win in 2.

Round 4: ANT. He goes off on turn three and I sit there and play with myself. Lost game 1. Game two I side in Chalice and Thalia. I mulligan into a Chalice and play it for 0. He still goes off on turn 3. I lose in two and take second place.

Thalia did jack squat for me all night. Maybe it was the matchups but I never needed her and certainly wouldn't MD her unless something drastic happens in the meta. Sb material? I suppose.

Now my big question - how the heck to I stop ANT combo? Do I just make it pretty much an auto-loss and be happy to crush other decks?

[Amon Amarth]

Now my big question - how the heck to I stop ANT combo? Do I just make it pretty much an auto-loss and be happy to crush other decks?

Your option is to board in a up to 6 cards and mull properly. Chalice, MBT, Discard, REB, and co. are your best options here. You'll probably still lose. Storm Combo is very hard. The other combo decks are easier to hate on and/or are slower too.

[ScatmanX]

Am I the only one around here that think that Goblins could ass rape the shit out of the top8 decks of the GP Denver?

[Tormod]

Am I the only one around here that think that Goblins could ass rape the shit out of the top8 decks of the GP Denver?

I dunno, I saw a lot of Engineered Plagues.

But other than that, ya!

[ScatmanX]

I dunno, I saw a lot of Engineered Plagues.

But other than that, ya!
6, but sure, maybe 2-3 Krosan Grips are the way to go, like some people play already.

[jrw1985]

Am I the only one around here that think that Goblins could ass rape the shit out of the top8 decks of the GP Denver?

I really want to see a breakdown of the decks that were played at the GP. The Wizards coverage only shows Top Tables, which is kinda vague and doesn't give a very good picture of what that tourney's meta looked like. Regarldess, there was 0 goblins coverage that I saw. No gobbo decklists, no gobbos at the Top Tables, no gobbo feature matches. I'm very interested to see if that was because noone was playing goblins or if goblins were just being beaten up all day.

The real story of that GP is Esperblade. The Esperblade list that won this GP is nearly identical to the Esperblade list that won the Indianapolis GP in March and 2 Esperblade lists that Top-8ed GP Atlanta and Ghent over the summer. Expect to see more Lingering Souls at you locals again.

[magicmerl]

Making top8 isn't about beating the decks that made top 8.

Making top8 is about beating the decks that the decks that made top 8 beat. (try saying that three times fast)

[lordofthepit]

Am I the only one around here that think that Goblins could ass rape the shit out of the top8 decks of the GP Denver?

I think it could beat Elves and the Miracles deck. 50/50 against RUG--that version runs Lavamancers and Stifles.

I'd rather be on the Jund (removal.dec + hand disruption + Engineered Plague) and Esperblade (Jitte, Swords, Snapcaster, Zealous Persecution) side of the matchup.

No idea about BUG vs. Goblins.

Putting my Goblins away for the time being.

[LeoCop 90]

I'm thinking about Blood Moon in sideboard. BUG,RUG,Junk ,Jund all run very few basic lands. They will be raped by Blood Moon the problem is that it's easily counterable, but maybe they would side out some counters in the second game against us.

[namrufmot]

Has anone tried the Canonist against ANT/combo?

[Psyqo]

Ran a very standard Goblin list at SCG Columbus this past weekend. Saw lots of BUG and Jund. How does Goblins beat a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman? Usually I like seeing Lackeys in my opening hand, but in this meta it just saddens me. I feel that the tempo loss just crushes me, because instead of dropping Gobs into play they are being discarded to Thoughtseize, Hymm and Inquisition. Then once my hand is empty Liliana hits the table and keeps it empty, even if I Matron for something good.

[Vandalize]

Ran a very standard Goblin list at SCG Columbus this past weekend. Saw lots of BUG and Jund. How does Goblins beat a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman? Usually I like seeing Lackeys in my opening hand, but in this meta it just saddens me. I feel that the tempo loss just crushes me, because instead of dropping Gobs into play they are being discarded to Thoughtseize, Hymm and Inquisition. Then once my hand is empty Liliana hits the table and keeps it empty, even if I Matron for something good.

You beat it with AEther Vial and Goblin Ringleaders.

BUG is a cakewalk if they do not smash multiple Tarmogoyfs into the table. Once you get your first Ringleader, the train becomes unstoppable.

[ScatmanX]

I'm thinking about Blood Moon in sideboard. BUG,RUG,Junk ,Jund all run very few basic lands. They will be raped by Blood Moon the problem is that it's easily counterable, but maybe they would side out some counters in the second game against us.
I'm going to try this out, but those Deathrite Shamans may be a pain in the ass on our plan...be sure not to run fetches.

Random pertinent question:
What do you guys think is the best SB card, for monored, against:
1 - Esperblade
2 - Jund
3 - Bug (without Delvers)

[Sasan]

1. Ancient Grudge: Discard and Counterproof

2. Perish

3. Rest in Peace and Swords to Plowshares

As you cannot run 4 colours and as the third option is also solid vs Jund I suggest a RWG splash. Swords rock vs BUG Decks.

[jrw1985]

New Goblin spoiled:


~Goblin Scrapper
Creature - Goblin Berserker
Creatures you control have haste and attack each combat phase if able.
Illus. Karl Kopinski 2/2



When I saw the name Scrapper I got my hopes up (think Tuktuk), but this guy is just a much worse Chieftain or Warchief. Not Legacy playable. But it's a hopeful sign of spoilers to come. This has been such a Human-centric set I was worrying there'd be no love for the other tribes.

[Psyqo]

You beat it with AEther Vial and Goblin Ringleaders.

BUG is a cakewalk if they do not smash multiple Tarmogoyfs into the table. Once you get your first Ringleader, the train becomes unstoppable.

I wish I shared your enthusiasm, but testing and actual tournament play didn't pan out as bright as that.

On the draw:

Him Turn 1, Fetch, Bayou, Shaman, Go.

Me: Mountain, Vial, Go.

Him Turn 2: Land, Decay the Vial, Thoughtseize, Go. I lose Ringleader.

Me: Land, Lackey, Go.

At that point I'm so far behind it just feels inevitable that a Goyf WILL hit the table and will be a 5/6 after land, creature, artifact, sorcery, instant.

Obviously on the play I feel much better, but after sideboard they have Engineered Plague and while I can usually fight through 1, with all the other disruption they have it is still very tough. I don't think I'm the only one either, I saw lots of Goblins at the tournament but none (or none that I saw) ever got up to the top tables. It is funny that elves won because I played an Elves deck and won in about 10 minutes with Sharpshooter on turns 3 in g1 and turn 4 in g2.

[magicmerl]

I wish I shared your enthusiasm, but testing and actual tournament play didn't pan out as bright as that.

On the draw:

Him Turn 1, Fetch, Bayou, Shaman, Go.

Me: Mountain, Vial, Go.

Him Turn 2: Land, Decay the Vial, Thoughtseize, Go. I lose Ringleader.

Me: Land, Lackey, Go.
Heh. It's like the best hand they can have vs us.... They aren't going to do that every game.


At that point I'm so far behind it just feels inevitable that a Goyf WILL hit the table and will be a 5/6 after land, creature, artifact, sorcery, instant.

Obviously on the play I feel much better, but after sideboard they have Engineered Plague and while I can usually fight through 1, with all the other disruption they have it is still very tough. I don't think I'm the only one either, I saw lots of Goblins at the tournament but none (or none that I saw) ever got up to the top tables. It is funny that elves won because I played an Elves deck and won in about 10 minutes with Sharpshooter on turns 3 in g1 and turn 4 in g2.
With the rise of BUG, perhaps Rest in Peace should be MD over Thalia? That certainly seems to alleviate the Deathrite Shaman and Tarmogoyf problems.

[ScatmanX]

Heh. It's like the best hand they can have vs us.... They aren't going to do that every game.
It is, but similar hands can happen. Seize T1+ Abrupt T2 is also backbreaking. I really did not liked Vials against both Bug and Jund (finally got some hours of testing), because it has lost it's reliability. Hands with 1-2 lands and Vial now are much worse, even against a non-FoW deck.
That led me to try 2 things.
1st - (Idea already tossed) cutting 1 MWM, 1 Pilly, 1 Prospector, 1 Tuktuk/Shooter for 4 Deathrite Shaman. It was great against some decks, and let me accelerate a lot, while providing some more reach. In the end, it wasn't worth it (the manabase was ok, but cutting those guys sucked).
2nd - Vialles goblins again. I'm trying a 4 Tarfire build, with 24-25 lands. During testing often times I felt more comfortable having 3-4 lands in my hand than 2-3 lands and a Vial, specially if a land was Wastelandable. Will be playing a small tournament this weekend and I'll tell you guys how it goes.
Edit: this decision has taken into account the vanishing of Maverick and the reduced goblin mirrors, that are decks that Vial shines against. UW is manageable without it, reanimator disappeared, dredge and combo are irrelevant for this decision, while against other non-merfolk tribal (that vanished too) stay the same.

@New goblin: Depressing =(

@Sassan: I agree with your cards, but had asked for a monored build.

[Sasan]

oh Sorry Scatena. I did read your post careful enough.

For monored I would suggest Relics, Tarfire, perhaps Stingscourger and Lightning Bolt.

If it is a mono red build without ports then Price of Progress will easily kill BUG with their gready mana bases.

This will be my list that I will test for a meta full of BUG and Rock etc...



Deck: Sasans Goblins

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:33
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells:4
4 AEther Vial

Lands:23
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
4 Mountain
2 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Rest in Peace
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Krosan Grip
1 Boartusk Liege

[Korvo]

This is exactly my build i'm going to play the next time! BUT i'm also working on a build with at least 3 Tarfire. Think Tarfire has gained in strength. It gets rid of Shamans and f.e. Delver and such threats.

Today i have a little testing round so i will play both variants and i'm giving you a feedback afterwards.

[magicmerl]

Sasan, I really like your list. I think it's pretty close to optimal. I think that the MWM are the 'flex' slot that can be Thalia if you want her MD, and I have the 2nd Chieftain as a Stingscourger. But other than that, your MD looks really good.

Regarding your SB, do you really need Swords? Is spot removal for opponents creatures the thing that will win us matches? If we want removal, how about Pyrokinesis?

[Sasan]

You need good and cheap removal vs BUG. Kinesis is good but as BUG has Hymn and other Discard Spells, you really cannot afford to lose more cards with Kinesis.

Swords can kill Tombstalker, Shaman, Goyf and Delvers. So yeah it can kill all win conditions of BUG.

That is why I consider swords to be a viable option vs BUG.

My list is in Game 1 a standard Goblin list as I do not want to make concessions in other Mus. The two Chieftains increase our clock, something Brad Campell told some days ago is perhaps necessary vs BUG. A better clock is also good in regard to my cuttings of the Ports. We cannot ruin the opponents gameplam as much as with Ports, so we need to be faster.

[bob2008]

I agree with Korvo (and others) that Tarfire is a good way to deal with the uprising BUG/Jund decks. It gives our deck the needed tempo boost to catch up with the increased speed of the format.

I played 3 Tarfire MD at the Hanau event and was never disappointed when I drew one of them. Getting rid of the Shaman as quick as possible is of great importance.

Tarfire is good against other decks as well. Tested against Esperblade yesterday and the Tarfires felt really strong. SFM needs to be killed on the spot – Tarfire does that very reliable...

Other thoughts:
Boartusk Liege works very good against E.-Plague– being Decay-proof is so huge!

Inspired by the Gobbo-list that finished Top8 in Hanau I wanted to try Sparksmith. He played two of them MD. Until now I am very impressed by this little guy.
More testing is needed thats for sure but I would highly recommend to give this guy a shot (or two )...

Just my 2-cents

[Sasan]

I agree with you on Tarfire but if you can afford a white splash Swords is far superior.

[bob2008]

I play the white splash...

But I have no love for the sword here.

I rather bring in some copies of RIP and then kill their Goyfs with Tarfire ;-)

[Sasan]

let us put it that way: You need Tarfire or Swords in greater numbers (3 or 4) and a great GY Hate card (Relic or RiP) to beat BUG Tempo.

Kinesis sucks in that matchup.

More haste lords seem also a must now.

The B Liege is THE answer for E. Plague as it cannot be decayed. The huge thing is that I do not need to board in Grips in Game 2 and 3 and lose my clock if I have Liege.

I think we can agree on these points :-)

[ScatmanX]

For the ones testing sparksmith: let me know how it goes. Also, how many did you play and how many haste lords. Thanks

[Hof]

While on the subject of greedy manabases..

In a Vial-less goblins build, would it be possible at all to run Abrupt Decay?

Something like this.

Greedy manabase (23):

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
3 Taiga
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

Removal (12):

4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Tarfire
4 Abrupt Decay

Army (25):

4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Chieftain
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Siege-Gang Commander

The goblin count is 33.

The basic idea would be that with all that quality removal, opponent will have a hard time putting anything in the way of lackey and instigator. He will mostly have to rely on spot removal to do so, which is usually where goblins want to be.

Decay is useless against combo, but so is Vial most of the time.
Against ALL the fair decks we get uncounterable Decay to take care of problematic things like Goyf, Jitte, all kinds of annoying things.

[Mr. Froggy]

I started building Goblins, and this is the list I would like to run:

4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Gempalm
2 MWM
2 Piledriver
2 SGC
1 Scrapper
1 Wort
1 Krenko
1 Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
3 Warren Weirding
4 Vial

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
7 Fetches
2 Badlands
5 Mountains

Thoughts?

[Sasan]

@Hof: I dont think that the mana base will work at all.

@mr. foggy: the list is ok but a little slow. Warren W is not so good in the current meta. Take tarfires. Cut a Wort for Chieftain. And cut one Krenko or ScG for the third MWM.

[Fuwatanity]

@Hof: I dont think that the mana base will work at all.

@mr. foggy: the list is ok but a little slow. Warren W is not so good in the current meta. Take tarfires. Cut a Wort for Chieftain. And cut one Krenko or ScG for the third MWM.

nvm , i misread :D

[Mr. Froggy]

@Hof: I dont think that the mana base will work at all.

@mr. foggy: the list is ok but a little slow. Warren W is not so good in the current meta. Take tarfires. Cut a Wort for Chieftain. And cut one Krenko or ScG for the third MWM.

I should keep it mono-red then? My wallet will be happy. :)

[bob2008]

@ScatmanX:

I play with 6 Lords (2 Chieftain) and 2 Sparksmith MD.

Like I said - until now I am VERY impressed by Sparksmith...

He helps you keeping a favourite board state while building up your army.

Yesterday I killed2 5/6-Goyfs in one game - Ok, it was close but he could not recover...

[Psyqo]

I see some lists cutting Warchief. What is the rationale here? I grant you that he is one of my sacred cows that I'd never cut even 1 of, but since I see people doing it I'm curious why. I'm open to persuasion.

And I did try 3-4 Tarfire in testing, but I found that it always made Goyfs even bigger, so even if I killed a Shaman I'd still have a bigger wall in front of me to deal with.

[Sasan]

I should keep it mono-red then? My wallet will be happy. :)

The Black splash is not needed. If you can buy two plateaus then buy RiPs and perhaps Swords and Thalia and you have good options vs the meta.

[ScatmanX]

@Hof: I dont think that the mana base will work at all.

@mr. foggy: the list is ok but a little slow. Warren W is not so good in the current meta. Take tarfires. Cut a Wort for Chieftain. And cut one Krenko or ScG for the third MWM.
Agree on both.

@ScatmanX:

I play with 6 Lords (2 Chieftain) and 2 Sparksmith MD.

Like I said - until now I am VERY impressed by Sparksmith...

He helps you keeping a favourite board state while building up your army.

Yesterday I killed2 5/6-Goyfs in one game - Ok, it was close but he could not recover...
Thanks. I'll be trying 2 when I can.

[jrw1985]

I started building Goblins, and this is the list I would like to run:

4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Gempalm
2 MWM
2 Piledriver
2 SGC
1 Scrapper
1 Wort
1 Krenko
1 Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
3 Warren Weirding
4 Vial

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
7 Fetches
2 Badlands
5 Mountains

Thoughts?

Alright Mr Froggy, here's what I would change, for what it's worth.
1) i'd make it mono-R. That way you can run 4 Cavern of SOuls as well as 4 Ports. The black splash won't be missed because everything your'e using B for can be approximated by R.
2) Replace 2 Warren Weirding with 2 Sparksmith. This gives you options for dealing with bigger creatures (Goyf, Batterskulls) and you are left with Stingscourger to deal with the truly large fatties of the format.
3) Replace the third Weirding and Sharpshooter with 2 Chieftain. You'll find the Haste and +1/+1 really helps with speeding up your clock, and Chieftain is excellent with Krenko too. You won't miss Sharpshooter. He isn't too horribly useful these days anyway.
4) Replace Wort with Kiki-Jiki. Kiki is faster than Wort and does essentially the same think. Kiki won't recycle removal for you, but Sparksmith is reuseable removal anyway.

4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Gempalm
2 MWM
2 Piledriver
2 SGC
1 Scrapper
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Krenko
2 Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
2 Sparksmith
4 Vial

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountains

[Sasan]

ah I did not see that Mr. Foggy has no Caverns in his list. The playset is a must.

[Eleven]

Hey guys! This sunday I will attend to a big tournament (normally more than 100 people) and I will use gobbos but I'm not sure what to splash. At the moment I am testing with Mono R list, since the last tournament I went with Rw list and it didn't work as I expected. I'd like to see your opinion, what would you splash for in a meta with a lot og BUG, RUG, Blade and some GW? (Oh and also expecting some junds since they did very well in the last GP Denver)

[Sasan]

RWG for Grips/Grudges/Tin Street Hooligan vs Esper and Swords/RiP vs BUG :-)

[Eleven]

RWG for Grips/Grudges/Tin Street Hooligan vs Esper and Swords/RiP vs BUG :-)
I agree for G splash for Artifact / Enchant removal, OK, but I don't see the point using W for swords or RIP, I mean, I tested RIP against BUG and it was not too good... If it resolves it cleans all GY but they can just get rid off it using decay and the tarmos will be 3/4 or 4/5 again in one or two turns, so I think that Relic of Progenitus also does the same work, only for 1 mana and not requiring an specific splash. About the Swords I think it can be good to kill Stalkers and goyfs because normally you can't do it with gempalms.

[Mr. Froggy]

Alright Mr Froggy, here's what I would change, for what it's worth.
1) i'd make it mono-R. That way you can run 4 Cavern of SOuls as well as 4 Ports. The black splash won't be missed because everything your'e using B for can be approximated by R.
2) Replace 2 Warren Weirding with 2 Sparksmith. This gives you options for dealing with bigger creatures (Goyf, Batterskulls) and you are left with Stingscourger to deal with the truly large fatties of the format.
3) Replace the third Weirding and Sharpshooter with 2 Chieftain. You'll find the Haste and +1/+1 really helps with speeding up your clock, and Chieftain is excellent with Krenko too. You won't miss Sharpshooter. He isn't too horribly useful these days anyway.
4) Replace Wort with Kiki-Jiki. Kiki is faster than Wort and does essentially the same think. Kiki won't recycle removal for you, but Sparksmith is reuseable removal anyway.

4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Gempalm
2 MWM
2 Piledriver
2 SGC
1 Scrapper
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Krenko
2 Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
2 Sparksmith
4 Vial

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountains

The reason I chose to run B, was because of Emrakul et al., how do I deal with a SnT'd Emmy? Stingscourger?

[Eleven]

The reason I chose to run B, was because of Emrakul et al., how do I deal with a SnT'd Emmy? Stingscourger?
Stingscourger is much better than Warren Weirding, you don't need B source, it can't be countered with a cavern or a vial and you can do it as instant speed with vial :)

[Mr. Froggy]

Also, I only found a Tin Street Hooligan, is there much of a difference between that and Scrapper?

[Eleven]

Also, I only found a Tin Street Hooligan, is there much of a difference between that and Scrapper?
Well, if I have to choose between one of them I always choose Scrapper, yea it costs 2 more but Tin street needs G (when sometimes you don't have it), doesn't work with vial and also doesn't work if there is a warchief in play. So yea, you can take Scrapper.

[Mr. Froggy]

Yeah, that makes sense, lol. I even remember playing against Goblins once, and he ran into the Warchief/Hooligan Paradox.

[Sasan]

No love for TSH? The guy is awesome and provides an ok body for its mana cost.

But that is a matter if personal preference. Some of the best Goblin players love TSH. just try it and then you can abandon it for Tuktuk if he does not impress you.

[angel882]

Hi, I just wanted to share that atm I'm running this list

2 Sparksmith
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
2 Chieftain

2 Tarfire
4 Aether Vial

2 Taiga
2 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Mindbreak Trap

I removed one MWM and Sharpshooter to SB to add Sparksmiths. They have been really awesome to me. I'm was thinking if I could cut one Tarfire for 4th Warchief or Incinerator cause I'm playing those Sparksmiths but I decided not to cause I think in this current meta it's really important to deal those x/2 creatures so that we get connect with Lackey. Any thoughts?

[ScatmanX]

Sharing testig info:
Tested 40 games against Jund. (20 on the play, 20 on the draw, 10 of each with sb)
It ended up 21-19 to Jund, being 10-10 without SB.
I brought in 3x Blood Moons, 2 Boartusk Liege, a Tuktuk Scrapper and 2 Tuktuk the Explorer on the play, and removed Lackeys on the draw for Relics.

1- Blood Moon sucked. They won 1 game, out of 7 they showed up. Often discarded, once Decayed, and a lot of times ignored. The 1st 2-3 turns they can fetch for a Forest and more importantly, a Swamp, and play with that. Shaman made it worse too. Imo, they are not worth it for this MU.
2 - Liege was pretty good, and I imagine must be better against BUG.
3 - Tuktuk the Explorer was actually quite good too. Having a 3 mana 4/4 under a Plague was great. Won several games. Unfortunately both Decay and Ancient Grudge kill the token =/
4 - Relic is great. If you have removal for Dark Confidant, Relic kills their gameplan. I'll swap Moons for them even on the play, and maybe try to add a 4th one, but don't know about that.
5 - Sparksmith was great before sb. After it got underwhelming, mostly because of Plague. Still, a must kill for them.
6 - Since I thought our deck was too slow to fight Jund on the draw, I started experimenting with and and old friend of mine: Gemstone Caverns. Some notes on it:
- It does not need to be card disadvantage if you don't want it too, unlike Chrome Mox.
- It works by itself adding mana.
- You can remove ANY card for it, not just red ones.
- It accelerates the game when you need the most.
- Allow you to kill T1 Lavamancer/Shaman, and get to your 1st turn with 2 mana available, which is huge.
Overall, I might play it on my next tournament. Being wastelandable T0 is irrelevant (after you draw your card, both players are with 6 cards and 0 permanents, so It's like you both mulliganed and you get to start), being Legendary was irrelevant on the 40 games. Adding incolor was irrelevant, because the constructed manabase could support it. I twice removed lands for it, and often chose not to put the Luck counter on it.

When I get more time will test these things against BUG.


I'm was thinking if I could cut one Tarfire for 4th Warchief or Incinerator cause I'm playing those Sparksmiths but I decided not to cause I think in this current meta it's really important to deal those x/2 creatures so that we get connect with Lackey. Any thoughts?
I'd keep the Tarfires in. Not necessarily to connect, but thy're great in today's meta.

[Mr. Froggy]

I was thinking, do I need to buy the Wastes, Ports, and Caverns straight away? Because the mana base is gonna cost me roughly $450, or can I play with just mountains and slowly buy the lands?

[ScatmanX]

I was thinking, do I need to buy the Wastes, Ports, and Caverns straight away? Because the mana base is gonna cost me roughly $450, or can I play with just mountains and slowly buy the lands?
I think you should start buying Wastes, then Caverns, (4of both), then Ports if you want.

[namrufmot]

Hi, I just wanted to share that atm I'm running this list

2 Sparksmith
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
2 Chieftain

2 Tarfire
4 Aether Vial

2 Taiga
2 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Mindbreak Trap

I removed one MWM and Sharpshooter to SB to add Sparksmiths. They have been really awesome to me. I'm was thinking if I could cut one Tarfire for 4th Warchief or Incinerator cause I'm playing those Sparksmiths but I decided not to cause I think in this current meta it's really important to deal those x/2 creatures so that we get connect with Lackey. Any thoughts?

no sharpshooter? why bother with the skirk then? only 2 piledrivers? piledrivers ARE removal. they need to be chumped or your opponent loses. they will take out more goyfs than sparksmith...

[Mr. Froggy]

I think you should start buying Wastes, then Caverns, (4of both), then Ports if you want.

So if I understand, Ports are not "necessary"?

[namrufmot]

So if I understand, Ports are not "necessary"?

No lands are "necessary" but Ports are last on the list. Caverns are almost a must as they are what make Goblins relevant again. Wastes are next...then Ports.

[Korvo]

Yesterday i played against Jund and won all 4 Games in a row. I played 3 Tarfire MB - rest was standard. The second game was pretty amazing. I mulled to 4 (!!) and after about 6 rounds i could stabilize and overrun him with a piledriver after he couldnt find flesh. He only had one knight.
I think i will keep 3 Tarfire MB because its good in the current meta. Also against mirror.

[BigBopper]

I still believe in the power of Punishing Fire. Groves support the Rg manabase and it doesn't pup goyf for tribal. Also it is a recurring removal not affected by discard and such. I played a couple of games yesterday vs. Junk and it either took care of Shamans, Bobs or Spirit tokens or it gave some points of extra damage in a situation where neither side was attacking or it handeled Jitte by declaring blockers and shooting the goblin away myself.

Post board I played Grips, Liege, Sharpshooter and relics for GY hate. With Plague in game and no grips in sight I just burned him down with Fires.
I don't believe in PoP in gobbos even in a mono-R built, Wastes, Cavern and Ports are overkill not to speak of splashes. I do agree that PoP is a top card right now but please don't play it in goblins.

[Fuwatanity]

Why no love for Winstigator?

Why not more copies of Chieftain (2+)? He does something against EPlaque and with Lackey and Winstigator you don't need Warchief that much.

Tarfire MD is awesome, but i was thinking of playing Lightning Bolt instead. It is no Goblin, you can't tutor it, it doesnt work with Ringleader, but it kills Liliana and Jace on 3 and doesn't push the Goyf as much. What do you think?

[BigBopper]

Why no love for Winstigator?

Why not more copies of Chieftain (2+)? He does something against EPlaque and with Lackey and Winstigator you don't need Warchief that much.

Tarfire MD is awesome, but i was thinking of playing Lightning Bolt instead. It is no Goblin, you can't tutor it, it doesnt work with Ringleader, but it kills Liliana and Jace on 3 and doesn't push the Goyf as much. What do you think?

Bolt is good in a zoo meta with tons of loam lions, nacatls and apes. Goyf hardly dies to Bolt and for all other purposes P. Fire does the same and trades pos. except for the Groove requirement. Liliana and Jace are usually not on 3 counters when you get to respond to them...

[FoxBlade]

Why no love for Winstigator?

In my experience, instigator is better against a meta with a bunch of control decks. The current meta seems to have more aggro decks, which makes more removal better.

[Korvo]

@BigBopper: I'm also thinking about a "Punishing Goblin" Deck but how does your Mana Base look like? And your main board?

Can you please give us an examble how it would look like?

[BigBopper]

@BigBoomer: I'm also thinking about a "Punishing Goblin" Deck but how does your Mana Base look like? And your main board?

Can you please give us an examble how it would look like?

Manabase (23):

4x Cavern
4x Waste
2x Port
4x Mountain
5x Fetches
1x Taiga
3x Groove of the Burnwillows

MD (60):

Core-1xSGC (21)
Flex (16):
1x Prospecter
1x Krenko
1x Chieftain
2x Piledriver
3x MWM

3x P. Fire
4x Incinerator
1x TSH

SB (15):

3x Relic
1x Crypt
3x Pyroblast
2x Pyrokinesis
3x Krosan Grip
1x Stinger
1x Boartusk Liege
1x Sharpshooter

The mana base is very stable and 23 lands are fine, since you can use them in the late-game to use P.Fire several times in an opponents turn, witch is kinda cool to play 2 each turn and basically have a L. Bolt;)

I just switched Stinger to the Side, since Chieftain is more important for a clock and as a haste enabler, although not so much more removal is neccessary, I have 2 pyrokinesis SB, but I'm pretty unsure about it anyways. Thinking about Tuktuk again to have a tutorable answer to Jitte with instant speed-post-board vial on 4 is top, for ringleader, krenko, liege und tuktuk.

My feeling about sparksmith is that he's a worse incinerator, due to summoning sickness and 1 toughness.

[jrw1985]

Is anybody else sick of Sharpshooter in their 75?

[Psyqo]

Is anybody else sick of Sharpshooter in their 75?

With Elves now becoming a prominent deck, having the 1 card that shuts down a top deck seems perfect in my book.

[Mr. Froggy]

With Elves now becoming a prominent deck, having the 1 card that shuts down a top deck seems perfect in my book.

I agree. Elves seems to be everywhere nowadays, so why not?

[bob2008]

During the last weeks I was not not happy with the Shooter either so I moved him to the SB.


But - of course - if Elver are everywere in your meta keep him MD...

[jrw1985]

With Elves now becoming a prominent deck, having the 1 card that shuts down a top deck seems perfect in my book.


I agree. Elves seems to be everywhere nowadays, so why not?


During the last weeks I was not not happy with the Shooter either so I moved him to the SB.


But - of course - if Elver are everywere in your meta keep him MD...

But he sucks so bad.....

Whaaah to cards that are excellent in extremely narrow circumstances.

[Mr. Froggy]

What would you switch it for?

[jrw1985]

I think you can replace Sharpshooter with Sparksmith. Sparky is cheaper and better at killing the more egregious monster cards we have to face regularly, like Goyf, Delver, DRS, Germ tokens. Sharpshooter was only ever Good against Maverick anyway (and, or course, hordes of EtW tokens and Elves). More often than not SS isn't a card I want to see in my opening hand. Sparksmith seems much more up to the task of beating up efficient midrange decks right now.

[Amon Amarth]

I like both Sharpshooter and Sparksmith currently. However, if I did end up cutting Sharpshooter I would board a copy since it is so good against Elves, Maverick, decks with tons of little dorks. SS can be so backbreaking at times it seems silly to forgo it completely. It is also the best way to deal with Lingering Souls which can be a pain in the ass.

[LeoCop 90]

I recently cut sharpshooter from my deck together with skirk prospector to add 2 tarfires. It was a very difficult decision because sharpshooter is sometimes fantastic but i realized he is the only one i could reasonably cut from my deck. Aniway if you run sharpshooter you must also run skirk prospector because they are great together ( and even better with a siege-gang ) ... never forget they are almost the only way for us to fight a moat.
I'm currently running a R/G list with 4 ports, but i'm thinking to cut 1 port to add 1 skirk prospector main deck and a sharpshooter in side.

[Korvo]

I have currently 3 Tarfire main and sharpshooter SB! But im also considering to cut skirk and sharpshooter completely because elves dont shock me. I have Tarfires main, 3 Pyrokinesis side and a boartusk liege. Dont think that he can overrun me in the second game! Only because of elves i wont keep sharpshooter. He isnt good at the moment. Im with jrw1985 in this decision.

[Sasan]

Do not ever cut Skirk if you want to have a good chance versus Esper Blade.

And how do you deal with Moat without Skirk and Shooter? Many lists even do nut run Grips.

You make the good Matchups (Miracle) or the totally winnable ones (Esper Blade) worse.

[Korvo]

Im not cutting them completely. I will put them into SB. With at least one Liege. Think thats ok.

[raindrainxi]

I modified my list last night and also thought for a long time which to cut. I ultimately removed Sharpshooter and Stingscourger main (retained the one in my sideboard) for 2 Bolts. Couldn't make myself remove the Prospector. Will test it tomorrow to see if it was a good idea to remove the 2, because I really like them both, especially Stinger. What did you guys remove to fit it the extra removals? I was also considering a) Warchief b) Piledriver c) Krenko d) Chieftain.

[BigBopper]

I modified my list last night and also thought for a long time which to cut. I ultimately removed Sharpshooter and Stingscourger main (retained the one in my sideboard) for 2 Bolts. Couldn't make myself remove the Prospector. Will test it tomorrow to see if it was a good idea to remove the 2, because I really like them both, especially Stinger. What did you guys remove to fit it the extra removals? I was also considering a) Warchief b) Piledriver c) Krenko d) Chieftain.

It's b) !
I am not entirely sure how smart it is to remove Stinger from main, but have to admit I did the same (see the current list posted).
I can't think of what is worse: Tarfire or Bolt.

Tribal vs. non-Tribal = search option vs. goyf pump.

[movingtonewao]

hi guys what do you think of the newly spoiled boros charm? I feel like it deserves a mention if splashing white...with 3 abilities that can all be relevant.

[jrw1985]

I played a monoR list in a small weekly last night. Went 3-1.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
3 Tarfire
3 Gempalm
1 Stingscourger
1 Sparksmith
3 Piledriver
3 MWM
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Warchief
2 Chieftain
1 Krenko
1 SGC

4 Waste
4 Port
4 Cavern
10 Mountain

SB
4 Relic
4 Pyroblast
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk
1 Tinkerer
1 Sharpshooter
1 Boartusk Leige
1 Skirk Prospector

R1 Jund Homebrew 2-0
Goblins has a little game against homebrews that are still in the developemental stage. Tarfire did some work against DRS.

R2 MUD 2-1
G1 I know he's on Metalworker MUD. I keep a starting 6 on the Draw that has Cavern and Tarfire. Bullshit. I hope to topdeck a real Red source T1. I dont. He goes T1 Greeves, T2 Metalworker: Something big. I lose. I still appreciate that Tarfire gave me an excellent out had I only drawn a Mountain. Winnable game.
G2 I mull to 5 but manage to get there swinging for 2-3 damage at a time.
G3 This one was a route. He starts with T1 artifact-mountain into Goblin Welder. I play a T1 Lackey. T2 he plays a City of Traitors and a Chalice @ 1. T2 I attack with Lackey, he blocks with Welder, and play Port and cast Tinkerer after combat. Tinkerer and Port wreck his manabase. A Cheiftain on my side pumps my Tinkerer so I can eat a Grim Monolith he plays. The game ended with him with like 1 tapped down land on his board.

R3 TES 0-2
Same player, same deck that gave me my only loss last week.

R4 Burn 2-1
I win G1 on the draw after Krenko helps me stabilize.
G2 I mull to 5 and get hit with 3 Goblin Guides t2.
G3 I get lotsa help from Krenko again and my opponent draws too many Fireblasts.

Another tournament with a MonoR list where Thalia would have made a significant impact. There is a conflict brewing now in my mind between Thalia and Tarfire. The do not work well together at all (they both reduce your Goblin-body count, and Thalia slows Tarfire), but they both improve your chances against drastically different decks. Not sure how to proceed yet. I still hate having 0 game against Storm.

[fimo]

I am working on punishing goblins in this period and I m happy with that. Recurrable 2 damages is awsome between that and ringleaders is pretty impossible that you don t have anything to do so you NEVER run out of cards. I especially like that it fits well in the goblin manabase meaning that it gets better the more lands you play. I love plaing more lands in goblins than most (23-24) because I want to have tons of mana down for when I start chaining goblin ringleaders. Most importantly you want to reliably have enough mana to be able to cast your first ringleader. Playing punishing fire means that you have another way to eficiently spend all that mana even if you are unlucky not too see any matron/ringleader (it happens...). It fits well in the goblin gameplan. If you do have a lot of gas already, having an extra removal don t hurt at all.
I was afraid of playing punishing fire in this meta full of DRS because I thought it would just get eaten by the shaman. However, the shaman doesn t have haste so it will probably never survive his next upkeep. Moreover, punishing fire is very hard to hate, it is resilient to counterspells and discard. GY hate sucks vr goblins so if I see GY hate because of my punishing fire I just get happy. Does it make the manabase more unstable? not at all. Groove gives both red and green which is awsome. If they waste groove is fine because they didn t waste cavern or ports. If they waste groove punishing fire is not a dead card, it will still deal 2 damage to creature or player ontill you draw your next groove.
I am liking how it fits in the manabase of the deck, it feels so much better than when i looked at it on paper. It reliably opens the way to lackey T2. I am not missing MD pyrokinesis/tarfires at all at the moment. The way I see it is PF>bolt,tarfire. I am also loosing some love for pyrokinesis now that I tried the power of PF. A mixture of PF and gempalm MD will wreck any fair deck.

[Korvo]

@jrw1985: good work with your monoR list! Did sparksmith get some serious work? Can you image to play the same list but only with Tarfire OR Punishing Fire?

@fimo: do you have any results with your Punishing Goblins? I mean did you play a tournament with it? This would be very interesting because it really sounds great. I mean playing PF in MB.

[fimo]

@Korvo
I played Punishing goblins in only one tournament but I ll do that again next week. The outcome was:
Dredge 0-2
U/W 2-0
D&T 2-1
BUG control 2-1
esperblade 0-2
at this point I left the tournament since I was not into prices anymore.

@jrw1985: was sparksmith relevant at any point?

[jrw1985]

@jrw1985: was sparksmith relevant at any point?

Sparksmith never came up last night. It should be noted that he would have been good against the MUD deck had the games gone deeper. Sharpshooter was actually the more relevant card (even though he never showed up) just because I played 1 deck with Bitterblossom and another with EtW.


@jrw1985: good work with your monoR list! Did sparksmith get some serious work? Can you image to play the same list but only with Tarfire OR Punishing Fire?


I like having various removal cards in my deck, especially when they have goblin bodies. Tarfire+Gempalm+Stingscourger+Sparksmith+Sharpshooter+SGC give you a whole lotta options for spot removal. I would never advocate running a list that only relied on a single removal spell, if that's what you're asking.

Punishing Fire seems like an entirely decent card to jam in goblins, but it doesn't work as well with our deck as it has with others. PF is one of those cards that's always flirting with the Legacy Metagame but never truly establishing itself. In Goblins, we already have Gempalm as a card that replaces itself. Tarfire is a faster way of dealing 2 damage and we can tutor for it. Pyrokinesis is free and can hit bigger/more guys. None of those cards require a combo card to make them truly good. Also, Goblins is pretty mana-hungry as it is without running a RR1 2 damage spell.

StarCityGames just posted another Sourcer article that includes a 3rd place Goblin deck from a 200 player tourney in Europe:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25486_Eternal-Europe-ndash-Week-One-Of-2013-Legacy.html

Goblins

Milan Ninznansky

3rd Place at Miscellaneous on 12/30/2012

Creatures (32)
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Sparksmith
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Lands (23)
14 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

Spells (5)
4 Aether Vial
1 Tarfire

Sideboard
2 Angel of Despair
2 Blood Moon
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Pyroblast
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Shattering Spree

I like the looks of it! Congrats to Milan.

I really like the MD, but the SB seems a little weak. Apparently SnT hate is still a thing. But who am I to judge? Dude took 3rd in a big tourney. My hat is off to him.

[Sasan]

But the dude only has 3 matrons and NO Cavern. The list is not that good.

[Korvo]

3 Matrons and 3 Gempalm?! Ok 3 Gempalm isnt that much of a problem because of the tarfire but 3 Matrons?! I would cut the second SGC for the 4th Matron!

And no Cavern?! Its a must nowadays!

But i think the SB looks not that bad. Maybe he was expecting some S&T decks because of the Angel? We dont know BUT what we now is that he got a brilliant 3rd place out of 200! Congratulations!

@jrw1985: so you dont think that PF is good card in goblins? Maybe youre right, but maybe i will give it a try next tournament. Then i can judge about it.

[B-rad]

Hey guys. So after sitting back and evaluating the meta game for the last couple weeks all the while playing against all these new decks, I've come to the conclusion that Goblins is slowly getting pushed out of the format. We are on life support but not completely dead yet. I think it's time for some changes and a little thinking outside the box if we want to reassert ourselves back into the thick of things.

Let me start by saying that Goblin Lackey is a horrendous magic card right now. With all the deathrites along with the rest of the traditional removal AND Abrupt Decay, our favorite little 1/1 is not getting in there any more. It's a sickening feeling opening on him just to have him be walled by a deathrite. Honestly, Aether Vial is about as bad as I've ever seen it. I'm terrified to keep hands that heavily rely on the card just to have it be Abrupt decayed and then getting smashed in the face by a super-charged Goyf. I've never seen Tarmogoyf be as big a problem for Goblins as he is right now. I started thinking back to the days of extended Goblins from 3-4 years ago and remembered a magic card I've had a lot of success with in Patriarch's Bidding.

Legacy Goblin Bidding

4 Skirk Prospector
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Aether Vial
2 Patriarch's Bidding

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
8 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Badlands

SB:
4 Goblin Lackey
?? Artifact Hate
?? Creature Hate
?? Graveyard Hate
?? Combo Hate

I initially thought about adding green for a few abrupt decays to replace the vials but that seemed quite greedy. Skirk Prospector is the cat's pajamas in this kind of deck as it combos extremely well with bidding not to mention it's a 1/1 that actually does something right now unlike poor little Lackey. If you have a Prospector out and they are STPing something always sac it to get in the yard instead of exiled.

As you can see we have 0 Caverns in the 75 as you actually don't mind your guys getting countered because that hopefully means our biddings are resolving. I'm trying to make the deck as resilient to wasteland as possible and make the mana as smooth as i can. I'm still unsure of the appropriate number of lands and which ones should be in the deck but I feel like this is a good starting point.

As bad as lackey is in a lot of matches he is still quite good vs the unfairs and kind of necessary so he slid he over to the board. Just take out biddings against combo decks and bring him in for a little more pressure.

For all I know Patriarch's Bidding may not actually be a legitimate legacy card, but I am tired of getting my face smashed in by this recent wave of new decks. I'm going to work on this for a while and run it through the gauntlet to see how it holds up. If anyone has any suggestions, comments, or anything let me know because I am all ears!!!

[Shawn]

If you want to draw out counters to set up Bidding, just tap Cavern for colorless; that way you can still have uncounterable goblins when you need them.

[Asgar]

I like the consistancy of playing no caverns. Counterspells are not our Problem
in the current Meta except for RUGs Dazes, but this matchup is even better than with standart lists, because of the 14 basics. Does not mean, i would play without caverns anyway :)

The Bidding List seems supersweet, but i would siggest more sharpshooters to support the 4 prospectors, as in the old days of standart :)
Another veeeery nice Option is in my opinion living death. Kinda tricky to play, but very good to turn games around you would just loose otherway.
If you play goblins counterable why having caverns meens you have something they should counter. Every good player will figure this out^^
Aaaand if your gameplan works you get the countered creatires back anyway.

Still like punishing fire, will test it on our next local tournament.

[BigBopper]

Let me start by saying that Goblin Lackey is a horrendous magic card right now. With all the deathrites along with the rest of the traditional removal AND Abrupt Decay, our favorite little 1/1 is not getting in there any more. It's a sickening feeling opening on him just to have him be walled by a deathrite. Honestly, Aether Vial is about as bad as I've ever seen it. I'm terrified to keep hands that heavily rely on the card just to have it be Abrupt decayed and then getting smashed in the face by a super-charged Goyf. I've never seen Tarmogoyf be as big a problem for Goblins as he is right now. I started thinking back to the days of extended Goblins from 3-4 years ago and remembered a magic card I've had a lot of success with in Patriarch's Bidding.


I agree with you that goblins has problems catching up with the speed of legacy and that lackey does not connect due to the shaman and vial. But I don't think it is that bad-goblins has seen worse times, i.e. past the mental misstep era. Goyf is huge right now but so was KotR a while ago. We play more MWM and chump block. In a time with Abrupt Decay, we play more lands to not relay on vial so much. Lackey is still a threat and every good player will keep a blocker or removal for him. With Tarfire, Sparksmith and P.Fire people are finding answers and still do top 8s as posted before. I just think you have to play very tight and adjust your list to your very own playstile that you are comforable with.
Still your list looks interesting-go ahead and test it, while I will take the PF list to beat BUG and other fair decks. As gobbolord posted a while a go, the key for the win is to play interactless. Meaning playing gobbos through Cavern or vial. Not offering targets for Abrupt decay (Ringleader, Krenko, Tuktuk, B.Liege), P.Fire for removal that can be recurred to discard and K.Grip for Plagues, Moat...I think you get the idea.

Looking at the latest elves list (Gb), I'm hoping for a 2/1 gruul hybrid goblin or at least a update for TSH in gatecrash. Maybe gruul charm does any good?
Speaking of card wishes and the recently spoiled goblin, which was devastating:

Lightning struck Goblin RR1
Creature-Goblin

You may play goblin spells as though they had flash.
2/2

I mean if blue gets something similar as a StP, red should lean over the edges of it's usual color boarders as well.

[LeoCop 90]

I share brad's opinion about lackey and vial in the current metagame, but i don't think the answer to these problems is to change our deck so radically.
If you want to make lackey connect , just play more removals ( like everyone is doing with tarfire / sparksmith / punishing fire ).
Now that cavern of souls has been printed, vial is maybe less necessary in our deck. I thought a lot of time about cutting it, but then I realized that in years and years of magic wizard has never printed a decent one-mana cost goblin playable in legacy , apart from goblin lackey, skirk prospector and maybe mogg fanatic. We really miss one cost drops, and i don't see myself cutting 4 vial for 4 skirk prospectors.
Bidding goblin was a very strong deck when Skullclamp was not banned.... you could equip skullclamp to any goblin with a toughness higher than one, then sacrifice that goblin with prospector and you basically drew 2 cards for zero mana cost. That way you drew tons of cards , had tons of goblins in graveyard, and in the end cast patriarch's bidding and win. But the key card of this strategy was not the bidding nor the prospector, it was skullclamp. In Brad's list i see only two Biddings.... how do you think to draw it frequently without the draw-engine of skullclamp ? At least you should run 4 biddings if you want to go this route.

[Sasan]

Deck: Hannover Goblins

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:33
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells:5
4 AEther Vial
1 Tarfire

Lands:22
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
2 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Krosan Grip
1 Boartusk Liege

Hey I playtested a lot with other experienced players vs BUG, JUNK and Rock and the list above could win consitently vs
them.

Try it out. The list is bonkers and solves many problems:

- 6 Hastelords for pressure as we lose speed due to Hymn and Shaman.
- Relic instead of RiP as it is a cantrip. Something we need as Hymn disrupts us much. This compensates it a bit.
Relic is a cc1 spell and can be cast turn 1 which is great as we board out lackey and need new one drops.
- Liege is THE answer versus their plague. It has a body and often wins games alone.
- Thalia is my combo hate peace.
- And now the bomb:
A playset swords. It removes everything. Shamans, Goyfs, Knights, Delvers, Tombstalkers...everything. it is more flexible then Tarfire and Sparksmith is sometimes too slow and tends to make us hard times if our life total is not high and we are behind.
- The second Shooter is instead of Kinesis as we need some answers versus the mirror and Maverick. One SB place is ok with our main shooter.

The boarding plan is:

Jund/Rock/Aggro Loam/BUG Delver:
-4 Lackey - 1 TSH -1 Pile - 1 Sharp - 1 Ringleader + 3 Relic + 4 Swords + 1 Liege

The deck has proved itself in tests and has a really ok MU vs the current Meta.

Try it :-)

[LeoCop 90]

Your list seems good , but if you're running 1 shooter main and one in side i think you should find room for one prospector, they're too strong together.

[Amon Amarth]

Hey guys. So after sitting back and evaluating the meta game for the last couple weeks all the while playing against all these new decks, I've come to the conclusion that Goblins is slowly getting pushed out of the format. We are on life support but not completely dead yet. I think it's time for some changes and a little thinking outside the box if we want to reassert ourselves back into the thick of things.

Let me start by saying that Goblin Lackey is a horrendous magic card right now. With all the deathrites along with the rest of the traditional removal AND Abrupt Decay, our favorite little 1/1 is not getting in there any more. It's a sickening feeling opening on him just to have him be walled by a deathrite. Honestly, Aether Vial is about as bad as I've ever seen it. I'm terrified to keep hands that heavily rely on the card just to have it be Abrupt decayed and then getting smashed in the face by a super-charged Goyf. I've never seen Tarmogoyf be as big a problem for Goblins as he is right now. I started thinking back to the days of extended Goblins from 3-4 years ago and remembered a magic card I've had a lot of success with in Patriarch's Bidding.

Legacy Goblin Bidding

4 Skirk Prospector
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Aether Vial
2 Patriarch's Bidding

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
8 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Badlands

SB:
4 Goblin Lackey
?? Artifact Hate
?? Creature Hate
?? Graveyard Hate
?? Combo Hate

I initially thought about adding green for a few abrupt decays to replace the vials but that seemed quite greedy. Skirk Prospector is the cat's pajamas in this kind of deck as it combos extremely well with bidding not to mention it's a 1/1 that actually does something right now unlike poor little Lackey. If you have a Prospector out and they are STPing something always sac it to get in the yard instead of exiled.

As you can see we have 0 Caverns in the 75 as you actually don't mind your guys getting countered because that hopefully means our biddings are resolving. I'm trying to make the deck as resilient to wasteland as possible and make the mana as smooth as i can. I'm still unsure of the appropriate number of lands and which ones should be in the deck but I feel like this is a good starting point.

As bad as lackey is in a lot of matches he is still quite good vs the unfairs and kind of necessary so he slid he over to the board. Just take out biddings against combo decks and bring him in for a little more pressure.

For all I know Patriarch's Bidding may not actually be a legitimate legacy card, but I am tired of getting my face smashed in by this recent wave of new decks. I'm going to work on this for a while and run it through the gauntlet to see how it holds up. If anyone has any suggestions, comments, or anything let me know because I am all ears!!!

I think you'd want another Bidding in there somewhere to increase your chances of drawing it or if it gets discarded. Cabal Therapy has a place in the board, probably. It can clear the way for Bidding as well as rip peoples hands apart. I'm OK with no Caverns because I don't think your manabase can support it.

With the current trend of Legacy becoming "fair-er" I think Patriarch's Bidding doesn't look all that weird. If Bloodbraid Elf can see play why not other, older Type 2 cards? Interesting take on the deck, regardless.

[Avatara]

Vexing Shusher makes bidding uncounterable.

[Korvo]

Deck: Hannover Goblins

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:33
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells:5
4 AEther Vial
1 Tarfire

Lands:22
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
2 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Krosan Grip
1 Boartusk Liege

Hey I playtested a lot with other experienced players vs BUG, JUNK and Rock and the list above could win consitently vs
them.

Try it out. The list is bonkers and solves many problems:

- 6 Hastelords for pressure as we lose speed due to Hymn and Shaman.
- Relic instead of RiP as it is a cantrip. Something we need as Hymn disrupts us much. This compensates it a bit.
Relic is a cc1 spell and can be cast turn 1 which is great as we board out lackey and need new one drops.
- Liege is THE answer versus their plague. It has a body and often wins games alone.
- Thalia is my combo hate peace.
- And now the bomb:
A playset swords. It removes everything. Shamans, Goyfs, Knights, Delvers, Tombstalkers...everything. it is more flexible then Tarfire and Sparksmith is sometimes too slow and tends to make us hard times if our life total is not high and we are behind.
- The second Shooter is instead of Kinesis as we need some answers versus the mirror and Maverick. One SB place is ok with our main shooter.

The boarding plan is:

Jund/Rock/Aggro Loam/BUG Delver:
-4 Lackey - 1 TSH -1 Pile - 1 Sharp - 1 Ringleader + 3 Relic + 4 Swords + 1 Liege

The deck has proved itself in tests and has a really ok MU vs the current Meta.

Try it :-)

As i said in the german forum your list is great. I will test it the next few weeks. Please more feedbacks from the other Gobo players!

[BigBopper]

Deck: Hannover Goblins

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:33
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

Spells:5
4 AEther Vial
1 Tarfire

Lands:22
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
2 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Krosan Grip
1 Boartusk Liege



Interesting list. It doesn't contain Sparksmith, which you had been advocating for. I am also unhappy with sharpshooter in general atm and would also rather see a Skirk Prospecter in there. Concerning the mana base, I dunno if 22 lands are enough in a 3-colored mana base, but if you splash white, I'd change the 2nd Plateau for a Karakas. If somebody needs an explanaition why Karakas is good right now, I am willing to post this seperately. I also don't know if 1 single tarfire does a big difference. While 2 Chieftains might also be too much.
Concerning your sideboard I'd play a RiP additionally as GY hate. Maybe cut a Sword. I'm not happy with the swords in general, I'd rather see them be pyrokinesises (2-3). If you got a free slot, sleeve up one more piece of goblin artifact hate (TSH).

But other than this I can see it perform well in a BUG heavy meta.

[Sasan]

So why is Karakas good now? ;)

It is colorless mana and makes it harder to cast Liege.

2 Chieftains is the right call as Brad Campell said we need a more explosive play to win. That is also my mind. Without Ports we must be faster as we have less disruption. Chiefs give us a not so bad board state after hymn has ruined our hands. That is why I run Relics. I want to compensate the card losses. Hymn is so badass versus us.

The mana base is ok, I will add a third Plateau instead of one basic mountain.

Sparksmith failed in my tests. I tried to love it and advocated for it. But man is this guy a bad top deck and he needs a hastelord to be good. It is bad when you are totally behind in life totals and ever sparksmited a Goyf and a Tombstalker? Great stuff but you will lose to the next flipped delver. Swords do not have these limitations.

Sharp is still MD Material as we face the mirror, some maverick decks and the rising elves. It is good vs moat and Belcher and ANT (if they cast ETW).

These are my points.

[LeoCop 90]

So we all seem to agree that the key to fight the current metagame is to have a more explosive play and run more removals spells.
My opinion is that now also aether vial is a bad card because every deck has an answer to it : blue decks can counter it, non blue decks have main deck abrupt decay. if we keep a hand that rely on vial and it is destroyed we're going to lose easily. Moreover, we now have caverns to dodge counterspells.
Considering this, i'm going to test this deck :

Punishing Vial-less goblins

Creatures:
-4 goblin lackey
-4 skirk prospector
-4 goblin matron
-4 goblin ringleader
-3 goblin piledriver
-3 goblin warchief
-2 goblin chieftain
-2 mogg war marshal
-2 warren instigator
-2 goblin sharpshooter
-1 stingscourger
-1 tin street hooligan
-1 siege-gang commander
-1 krenko,mob boss
Other spells:
-4 punishing fire

Lands:
-4 cavern of souls
-4 wasteland
-4 grove of the burnwillows
-3 mountain
-2 taiga
-5 fetchlands

Sideboard:
-4 relic of progenitus
-3 chalice of the void
-2 pyrokinesis
-2 REB
-2 krosan grip
-1 stingscourger
-1 boartusk liege

The idea under this deck is to partially replace aether vials with the mana skirk prospector can generate and with the addition of two warren instigators.
4 skirk prospector, together with the cut of rishadan ports(that without vial become less effective), allow us to always have the red mana we need to cast our recurring punishing fire. The cut of aether vial also keep the goblin count very high (34) despite the add of punishing fire.
I completely eliminated gempalms and tarfires, and i chose to put two sharpshooter main deck because they're really strong with 4 skirk prospector in the deck.I initially had only one sharpshooter and was thinking to play one sparksmith or lightning crafter, but for now i want to rely on the prospector/sharpshooter sinergy. I would like to hear some opinions about lightning crafter aniway: 3 damage per turn seem fantastic and he can't be abrupt decayed. Cutting gempalm have been difficult because he is also a cantrip, but again if i have a recurring removal i don't mind if it gets discarded with hymns. The removal package also sees 2 pyrokinesis entering in the second match.
4 skirk prospector main deck also make the matchup againt jitte/swords/batterskull A LOT easier.
I cut a warchief for a chieftain because warren instigator casting cost is not affected by warchief and with chieftain he is a 2/2 double strike wich is good. I also thought about running 3 warchief/3 chieftain, moving one sharpshooter in side, but i still have to decide.
The only thing that doesn't completely convince me about the deck is that there are only 8 one mana drops, usually i like to have at least ten but i don't want to play some random tarfires or mogg fanatics.
I will be happy to hear any impression and i will let you know if the deck works.

[magicmerl]

Aether Vial is effectively a mana source.

Cutting Aether Vial and keeping 22 lands seems like a horrendous mistake.


If you got a free slot, sleeve up one more piece of goblin artifact hate (TSH).
Why would you want to have a second Tin-Street Hooligan over the first Tuktuk Scrapper? Since there's a non-zero number of times when you will have Goblin Warchief in play / Vial on 4 / surplus Lackey trigger.

[Final Fortune]

I share brad's opinion about lackey and vial in the current metagame, but i don't think the answer to these problems is to change our deck so radically.
If you want to make lackey connect , just play more removals ( like everyone is doing with tarfire / sparksmith / punishing fire ).


Another card I feel that'd improve Goblin Lackey's ability to connect, and over all survivability, is Apostle's Blessing; it's essentially a colorless counterspell vs control decks and lets you connect with your Goblin Lackey or trade favorably in combat with your Goblin Piledrivers. I think it may have more depth than Tarfire for example, because protecting your Aether Vial from Abrupt Decay is a back breaking play vs BUG and its ilk.

The card is definitely a diamond in the rough, IMO.

[ScatmanX]

Cutting Aether Vial and keeping 22 lands seems like a horrendous mistake.
I'm quite drunk, but from what I get from these posts, this is true. Non vial list should run 24-25 lands. We are manahungry.
Also, 4 Prospectors seem bad.

Played Punishing goblins yesterday. report tomorrow.

[anotherday]

I don't know how anyone could ever advocate getting rid of Lackey or Vial. There have been answers to both these cards since forever-ago, but that's no reason to not run them. Left unchecked, these two cards can singlehandedly alter the course of a game.

When it comes to Lackey, sure, he's outclassed power-wise to almost every other creature in Legacy, but he makes the opponent hold back at least one creature to avoid a potential game-swinging counterattack. The argument that Deathrite Shaman can block him with impunity is moot. I can't attack my opponent but he can't attack me either.

With Vial, you really can't go wrong with free, uncounterable, instant-speed creatures. I understand running Prospector if you're also running Sharpshooter, but to try to REPLACE Vial with Prospector is the wrong train of thought IMO. Vial gives you free creatures with a single tap. Prospector on the other hand helps accelerate your board position at the cost of, well, your board position. Adding on to the Vial argument, I've seen a couple posts throughout the thread that basically suggest that Vial isn't needed because we have Caverns. Seriously? Vial frees up mana for other things, Caverns does not. Both cards just happen to provide counter-protection.

But in the end, even with 4 Lackeys, 4 Vials, 4 Warchiefs, and x amount of Prospectors and Instigators, you have to realize that Goblins is a mana-hungry deck, and your tempo generators will most likely see the graveyard in one way or another. The solution to this? Run more lands. I don't expect Lackey or Vial activations left and right. Hell, I bank on them being removed, but I don't worry because I run 24 lands. To that effect, I'm never really in it for a quick game; I'm in it for the long haul, the late game where Goblins shine (unless I'm facing combo, then I cry, lol). It's all a matter of play style though I guess. I don't bank on Lackey connections or Vial activations. If they happen, sweet. If they don't, no biggie because I don't ever miss my land drops.

[Korvo]

@ScatmanX: i'm really looking forward to see your repord on Punishing Goblins.

[liamb]

Spoiler time.

http://news.dengeki.com/elem/000/000/580/580617/

[R]
Army Loyalist(?) {R} Rare
Creature - Goblin Soldier
1/1
Haste
Battalion - Whenever ~ and at least two other creatures attack, all creature you control get first strike and trample until end of turn. They cannot be blocked by token creature this turn.

So basically it’s strictly better Raging Goblin. It has some good synergy with Mogg War Marshal, Krenko, Mob Boss and Goblin Piledriver. Also battalion trigger allows to sneak through Germ (Batterskul), Spirit (Lingering Souls) and Angel (Entreat the Angels) tokens. On the other hand it’s just 1/1 beater without other green followers.

[Annatar]

He will make a reasonable Goblin Matron target just the same.

The Batallion trigger is almost a given in this deck. The first strike might be the best thing about it since you can now, more or less, attack into anything without to much casualties.

[BigBopper]

So why is Karakas good now? ;)

It is colorless mana and makes it harder to cast Liege.

2 Chieftains is the right call as Brad Campell said we need a more explosive play to win. That is also my mind. Without Ports we must be faster as we have less disruption. Chiefs give us a not so bad board state after hymn has ruined our hands. That is why I run Relics. I want to compensate the card losses. Hymn is so badass versus us.

The mana base is ok, I will add a third Plateau instead of one basic mountain.

Sparksmith failed in my tests. I tried to love it and advocated for it. But man is this guy a bad top deck and he needs a hastelord to be good. It is bad when you are totally behind in life totals and ever sparksmited a Goyf and a Tombstalker? Great stuff but you will lose to the next flipped delver. Swords do not have these limitations.

Sharp is still MD Material as we face the mirror, some maverick decks and the rising elves. It is good vs moat and Belcher and ANT (if they cast ETW).

These are my points.

Karakas can bounce Emrakul, Grieselbrand and co. vs. unfair decks. But it can also be a removal bouncing Thalia, Gaddock Teeg or Clique. Furthermore you can do broken things with a haste lord, Vial@4, Karakas and Krenko-I know this is a 4 card combo, but not that unlikely. It can't be fetched or tutored for and can't produce red mana, but it improves your S'n'T MU.

I never shared the hype about sparksmith. Concerning Maverick I made the experience that it never survives long enough to be active or you have to deal with Mother of Runes or Sylvan Safekeeper. Vs. Elfes and Goblins I keep one in the SB, together with Pyrokinesis. But I think it can be due to playstyle and flavor.


The idea under this deck is to partially replace aether vials with the mana skirk prospector can generate and with the addition of two warren instigators.
4 skirk prospector, together with the cut of rishadan ports(that without vial become less effective), allow us to always have the red mana we need to cast our recurring punishing fire. The cut of aether vial also keep the goblin count very high (34) despite the add of punishing fire.
I completely eliminated gempalms and tarfires, and i chose to put two sharpshooter main deck because they're really strong with 4 skirk prospector in the deck.I initially had only one sharpshooter and was thinking to play one sparksmith or lightning crafter, but for now i want to rely on the prospector/sharpshooter sinergy. I would like to hear some opinions about lightning crafter aniway: 3 damage per turn seem fantastic and he can't be abrupt decayed. Cutting gempalm have been difficult because he is also a cantrip, but again if i have a recurring removal i don't mind if it gets discarded with hymns. The removal package also sees 2 pyrokinesis entering in the second match.
4 skirk prospector main deck also make the matchup againt jitte/swords/batterskull A LOT easier.
I cut a warchief for a chieftain because warren instigator casting cost is not affected by warchief and with chieftain he is a 2/2 double strike wich is good. I also thought about running 3 warchief/3 chieftain, moving one sharpshooter in side, but i still have to decide.
The only thing that doesn't completely convince me about the deck is that there are only 8 one mana drops, usually i like to have at least ten but i don't want to play some random tarfires or mogg fanatics.
I will be happy to hear any impression and i will let you know if the deck works.

In a regular goblin build you also only have 8-9 1 drops. Without vial you totally loose the ability to play your creatures with instant speed and mana screw your opponent.
NEVER cut Gempalm - it's the best card in this deck, and you can quote me on that. It is uncounterable, it (usually) trades positive, it let's you draw a card-which not neccesary a goblin, but can be a land or post-board a hate piece. Thinking of tutoring with matron I probably get Incinerator as often as ringleader! Everyone outside this threat I afraid of it since there is not a whole lot they can do about it...

About the new Goblin: I think the unblockable token ability is also really cool vs. ANT (Empty) Belcher (Empty) and the latest Garruk (Wolf Token).

[Sasan]

The new goblin is great. it will make an appearance in our legacy decks. The question is about the right number. At least one in your 60 but perhaps 2-3 are good, too.

With the common white splash in Goblins right now even Boros Charm can be an option for our deck.

[GreenShorty]

Entreat the angels and batterskull dropped a tear when they saw this new gobbo card.

I believe it is going to take away the slot currently used by sharpshooter, cause it's a blast against any attriction deck (maverick anyone?) and also helps finishing some games.

Ps.: Amazing how ppl were just talking about WoTC not printing good one drops just a few posts ago. =)

[Annatar]

Well, the new goblin isn't "exactly" a one drop, since he doesn't do much on his lonesome. You need some kind of a board position first.

[LeoCop 90]

Amazing how ppl were just talking about WoTC not printing good one drops just a few posts ago. =)

I was complaining about the lack of one-drop goblins :) well,this is not exactly what I expected, but seems good aniway. Not overestimate him though, because the only card in our deck that gets strong benefits from the battalion trigger is goblin piledriver. If I'm going to play army loyalist i'm also going to play 4 piledrivers, i think.
The hate against batterskull /entreat the angels/ lingering souls is a good addition.


With the common white splash in Goblins right now even Boros Charm can be an option for our deck.

Attack with piledriver ,army loyalist and some other goblins, then give piledriver double strike with boros charm = alpha strike.

[BigBopper]

On first sight I'd say he's a 2-off, maybe more. But Piley becomes more and more sexy with him, 'cause you can't chump block 15/2 with trample ;)
Even on his own he's a 1/1 with haste-seems good on the play and makes goblins more reliable.

[GoboLord]

I wonder how Army Loyalist is any better than Bloodmark Mentor???

quick comparision:

Loyalist ~vs.~ Mentor

* Manacosts: R ~vs.~ 1R
* Body: 1/1 with Haste ~vs.~ 1/1 with First Strike
* Ability: provides First Strike and Trample when attacking ~vs.~ provides First Strike when attacking or blocking (even if he himself does not engage in combat)


I do not think that having Haste is what we necessarily need from a creature with a 1/1 body. On top of that, costing 1 mana opposed to 2 mana is not necessarily a problem when you think at which moment in the game the care will actually enter the battlefield/ become active. As we already figured out, neither card will be a 4-off, that means you will likely not draw the card before turn ~5(?). At that point it should be obvious that costing 2 mana is not a big deal. Also, when you are in a grindy, defensive kind of position where you need to chumpblock a little (to prepare for the alphastrike) Mentor seems much more valuable to me, since he provides first strike even when blocking and even IF HE DOES NOT ATTACK! Providing Trampe is also not what any goblincard (other than Goblin Piledriver) needs - as you might know: 1/1 or 2/2 creatures with or without trample doesn't make the difference.

So, for anybody is going to test Army Loyalist, please do everyone a favor and insert a proxy-card into a sleeve that can either be Loyalist or Mentor. Then, at any point in the game when you draw the proxy card, take notes on which one would be better.

[Avatara]

~Army Loyalist - seems like another goblins that is crying to be used in combination with many "lords".

[Hof]

I am also a sceptic. What is an army of 1/1's and 2/2's going to do with trample and first strike when attacking? Army Loyalist also suffers from Piledriver syndrome, meaning he is only relevant if you have board postition to attack with 3+ goblins. Piledrivers have been reduced to about a 2-of in many lists for this very reason. The token evasion ability is very interesting, and to the best of my knowlege completely unique in the game? Time will tell if it is any more than that. I hope I am wrong, but I don't see this as any more than a 1-of in the SB, at best.

[jrw1985]

MUST CHIME IN WITH $0.02

Saw the spoiled gobbo and at first I was all :laugh: then I realized he does nothing in multiples and I was all :rolleyes:. SO I WROTE A SWEET PROS AND CONS LIST

PROS

His ability is a game ender under certain circumstances.
Battalion resolves whether or not your opponent responds to your attack with removal.
Obviously ~Loyalist makes Piledriver better.
Battalion is evasion from Germs, Spirits, Faeries, Angels and Goblins.
First strike makes Burn better in combat.
Proactive Tempo boost
Goblin Pyromancer??? I'm trying....
Loyalist might make Goblin Guide playable.
He makes a Mogg Fanatic play the old damage-on-the-stack rules

CONS

Battalion is conditional.
Battalion is not a cumulative effect, so multiple ~Loyalist in hand = a bad hand
When Battalion's condition is not met, Loyalist is just a Raging Goblin. Nobody wants to play Raging Goblin.
If it was a bad idea to attack without a Battalion trigger, it will probably still be a bad idea to attack with a Battalion trigger (Lackey, Loyalist and MWM together still don't want to attack into DRS + Goyf).

I'm guessing ~Loyalist will be a 1-of. Maybe 2. When it's released I'll try it out as a 2-of in a list with 4 Piledriver. Something like...

4 Vial
4 Lackey
2 Loyalist
4 Piledriver
3 MWM
4 Gempalm
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
1 Stingscourger
1 SGC
1 Krenko
2 Chieftain
2 Tarfire

20 land

[Pee-Dee-2]

So like I told at the German board: I don't see the Loyalist in our deck atm. If we are able to attack with more than 3 creatures, we will normally win in a few turns so the Loyalist would become win more.
If we can't attack, we have another 1/1 dude. First strike doesn't matter because normally (without 2 or more lords) all aother creatures are bigger than our green men.
Sure, Token can't block us but in my historie: When I lost against UW by Angels, it was because I made mistakes and not because he had angels. Against Lingering Souls we also normally don't lose exept they have an active Jitte in addition. And Batterskull? We don't have to fear Batterskull.

So, the Token-thing isn't the point.

At least we have trample: The only Goblin, who need to became a trampler is a Piledriver. But also at this point: If we are able to attack with Pily and about 7 other Dudes, we are on the winner's side, don't we?

[Vacrix]

Fun facts from the OP..


In 2011 with the release of Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull the deck was once again said to be “dead”.
Conclusion? The deck might have made a comeback due to Cavern of Souls.. but SFM into Batterskull is still one of the best early plays you can make against Goblins as a UWx control deck. Its forces them into Matron, into Scrapper, and if they bounce their Batterskull, what then? If you attack into it, he's gaining 8 life per turn while you're on a 5 turn clock. Now you can attack unblocked and practically ignore Batterskull instead of having to play around it. When you consider how hard Piledriver hits for, its even more relevant.



Piledriver is a common choice for the deck. His insane triggered ability causes heavy damage to opponents lifepoints, when unblocked. However this is often not the case, since opponents place creatures and removal in his way – in fact he can be seen as an removal for creatures like Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker and sometimes even Knight of the Reliquary. Piledriver supports aggressive strategies and usually makes the deck more explosive.
First Strike means that when he's up against fat guys like Goyf and Knight, he'll live through it if you have a reasonable sized team. Piledriver will also connect more often because he has trample.. meaning he's much more than a removal spell.


I have a feeling that Army Loyalist could potentially facilitate an entirely new build of Goblins. Loyalist is great with guys like Mogg Warmarshall, hell I'd even take another look at Goblin Bushwacker, plenty of maindeck Goblin Chieftains, and Goblin Guide.

[Davran]

Conclusion? The deck might have made a comeback due to Cavern of Souls.. but SFM into Batterskull is still one of the best early plays you can make against Goblins as a UWx control deck. Its forces them into Matron, into Scrapper, and if they bounce their Batterskull, what then? If you attack into it, he's gaining 8 life per turn while you're on a 5 turn clock. Now you can attack unblocked and practically ignore Batterskull instead of having to play around it. When you consider how hard Piledriver hits for, its even more relevant.

This is pretty much my thinking on this new guy as well. The trample is largely irrelevant unless your piledriver is being chumped and first strike will no doubt swing some combats in our favor...but I think the real "meat" on this card is the "cannot be blocked by tokens" part.



I have a feeling that Army Loyalist could potentially facilitate an entirely new build of Goblins. Loyalist is great with guys like Mogg Warmarshall, hell I'd even take another look at Goblin Bushwacker, plenty of maindeck Goblin Chieftains, and Goblin Guide.

An interesting thought to be sure. Haste is somewhat relevant on the play vs. the current Deathrite Shaman problem. Note that all of the cards you listed are legal for play in the modern format...I wonder if such a deck could make waves there (no Ringleader though :cry:)?

[Mr. Froggy]

My deck is almost finished, here's the list:

[Core] 22
...

[Others] 16
1 Tarfire
2 Chieftain
1 Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
4 Aether Vial
2 Piledriver
1 Sharpshooter
2 Sparksmith
2 Mogg War Marshall

[Lands] 22
4 Wastland
4 Cavern of Souls
14 Mountain

Thoughts on it?

[FoxBlade]

I like army loyalist as a 1-of in the deck, I still like 4 piledrivers in my goblins and he makes them so much better and he only costs 1 :O!

[namrufmot]

I don't see the new guy getting much, if any, play. I am going to go back to my old favorite Goblin Pyromancer as a faster kill though. Vialing him in after declaring your attack is sweet and when combined with MWM makes for a very fast lethal (but well-timed) swing.

[ScatmanX]

Thoughts on it?
List is fine. I agree o others with dropping Sharpshooter though, and think yours could became a 3rd MWM.

[ScatmanX]

Fuck. Just saw I wrote I'd write a report. Should not drink and post again. Anyway, since I said it, here we go:

Deck:
4 Grove
4 Waste
4 Caverns
1 Taiga
5 Mountain
5 Fetch

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

3 Warchief
2 Chieftain

3 MWM
1 Piledriver
1 TSH

4 Punishing Fire
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Sparksmith
1 Stingscourger

2 Krenko
1 SGC
SB:
2 Kinesis
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Boartusk Liege
2 Tuktuk the Explorer

23 lands because P.Fire is mana consuming, as the rest of our deck; 3/2 Warchief/Chieftain Split because I love playing with 2 Chieftain; 1 Pilly because he sucks against Midrange, and I was expecting few combos (same reason for 1/2 Sgc/Krenko); Was at 3 Pfire/1 Tarfire, but having P.Fire online is too awesome; Chalice because in that store there is a lot of burn; Liege for Plagues; Tuktuk the Explorer because he proved himself awesome against non-stp midrange decks, and in the mirror.

R1 - Elves
G1: I'm on the draw, mull 2 non landers to a 5 without removal, and he goes off T3.
G2: Mull into Groove, Waste, Sparksmith, Gempalm, Ringleader and SGC. I play T2 Sparksmith while he plays T2 Absolute Law. Nice life.

R2 - TES
G1: I mull a Lackey hand into a slow one, but die T3 anyway.
G2: I mull into Chalice + Warchief and P.Fire. Set Chalice @0, play P.Fire in response to a Duress, then Waste him 2 times before playing Warchief. He plays lands every turn, C.Therapies my Warchief, then next turn plays Wish, then makes 12 goblins on the other, using 3 LED just for storm. Meanwhile I had drawn a Chieftain and lands. Nice topdeck skills by me...

R3 - Affinity
G1: I keep a decent hand, but he is on the play, and get plating on the metalcraft 2/2 guy, and I can't find the TSH to save my life.
G2: Keep Lackey, K.Grip, Gempalm, Matron and lands. Fine. He drops 4 dudes T1 without a land. I slowly kill his guys, then finish him.
G3: He gets a T2 metalcraft dude, and a bunch of blockers. Lackey + Chieftain slow the game down. Here P.Fire makes it's firs appearance, killing 4 guys. Unfortunately, the turn after he goes to 0 cards, and I have a window to win, he draws a Thoughtcast, Dispatch a crucial Warchief and plays a dude. Next turn he draws a Thoughtcast, Dispatch the Chieftain and plays a dude. Next turn he Plays a Toughtcast, plays a dude, plays and equips Plating. I manage to kill all other guys he had, and Waste 2 lands, to get out of Plating range for a turn, so drawing a Matron or TSH or Grudge or Grip or Tuktuk the Explorer (would became a 5/5 COLORLESS dude after I P.Fire it) would save me, but it is all useless because he draws a 2nd plating and have 3 mana to equip it. Nice.

R4 - Bye.
And then I drop, getting the worst result of my life playing magic.
Still, I think the deck is awesome, and in testing beat the shit out off all other fair decks, while getting a nodge on the mirror. Will be playing something like this list more often.

[Vacrix]

I really don't think Army Loyalist is going to be as effective as a 1'of but perhaps as a 2'of. That means its more of a Matron target and most of the time, you have a better Matron target. Even against an opposing Batterskull, you'd rather find Scrapper. Loyalist is something you want to draw naturally or off a Ringleader. I figure if you're going to Matron it up, it will be for such niche situations that its not worth running. Loyalist seems better as a 2'of. Even if you draw multiples, that will be an asset against some decks.. like against an opposing Batterskull.

And yes, Goblins is going to be awesome in Modern.

I like jrw1985's list.. but with these changes..

4 Vial
4 Lackey
2 Loyalist
2 Piledriver
3 MWM
4 Gempalm
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
1 Stingscourger
1 SGC
1 Scrapper
1 Krenko
3 Chieftain
2 Tarfire

20 land

Scrapper is rather crucial. I don't think you can really cut him from the maindeck. Piledriver is good with Loyalist but Chieftain seems better, especially with 3 MWM. I do like the idea of Pyromancer though. It might make a nice singleton Matron target, especially with a configuration with more 1 drops and MWM.



I don't think that Mentor vs. Loyalist is a fair comparison. It depends on the board state, but Loyalist is going to be better most of the time.. namely when you draw it off Ringleader. Costing a full mana less will be relevant if you don't already have a lord in play. When you do, they are still not equal because trample will be randomly better with Piledriver.. but the fact remains, none of that is really why you want to play the card. Thats all extra, even the haste is extra.

Its the fact that you can ignore Batterskull without having to waste a Matron to find Scrapper. They can only gain 4 life per turn instead of 8 life.. Goblins can win that race. That allows you to hold onto Matron and perhaps even find Chieftain and just swing in for the win right past the Batterskull. If you've actually played against Batterskull, you know it wins games against Goblins by itself. Besides, sometimes they can just bounce Batterskull and replay it and then you're fucked game 1 because typically you only play 1 Scrapper in the maindeck. I've played quite a few games, for example, against Death and Taxes. The entire game winds up revolving around me Matroning into Scrappers to remove equipment.. but they start with Batterskull. That gives you the option to use the Scrapper to remove other equipment, or blockers that would screw with your Loyalist. That basically forces them to remove Loyalist so you get to keep your other Goblins. When you have the Battalion trigger, which you should.. or else you're probably already losing.. then it even trades with Thalia, which also slow you down. It might not be a surefire way to get past Batterskull, but its another maindeck tool that directly counters UWx controls best strategy against you.



On a different note.. Sparksmith looks quite good in the current format. It gets rid of blockers, even Goyf sized blockers, and if you also want to play Loyalist, plays combat tricks quite well to keep your team alive. Also, if you have enough dudes in play, it keeps Batterskull off the table, and can kill creatures in response to equip.

[Mr. Froggy]

Before I started playing Goblins, I thought MWM was gonna suck, but it's AWESOME. I see it as a pseudo-Time Walk against some decks.

I'm glad I picked the deck up! :-)

[jrw1985]

If ya wanna watch Mr Phillips play some legacy gobbos...

http://www.twitch.tv/search?query=ceddyp+legacy#stq=ceddyp%20legacy&stp=1

[Mr. Froggy]

I saw something on my Siege Gangs, both are from Scourge, but one has a name with font that isn't as clear as the other, same goes for the type and artist name. Is it a misprint?

[Hanni]

Army Loyalist is awesome.

First of all, assuming that Battalion is remotely difficult to achieve for Goblins is pretty much asinine. The entire goal for Goblins is to swarm the board and swing, and it does so extremely well even in the face of board sweepers like Terminus. Before this new Goblin, sometimes there would be issues alpha striking because of big blockers, in situations where doing so would lose more than it would gain. However, with first strike/trample/unblockable-by-tokens, the dynamics change. Instead of trading creatures and maintaining card parity, first strike can cause the opponent to lose blockers for card disadvantage. Instead of having a 15/2 that gets killed for no gain against Thalia, or trades with anything with power 2 or greater, now a bunch of damage will push through. Not being able to be blocked by Germ tokens, Spirit tokens, and whatever else... that's just icing on the cake.

Piledriver is going to be become absurdly powerful. Piledriver was usually a liability before, due to its lack of evasion. Giving them trample means that a pair of Piledriver's will literally be game-ending if the opponent doesn't have the immediate removal, even at 7/2 each. Even with Goyfs and Knights to block, they lose their big beats while Goblins loses nothing because of the first strike... and they can't even block with their Germ token.

Most aggro in the format does not have a very large ass (toughness), with a few exceptions like Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. With a single lord pump, you're looking at a swarm of 2/2 and 3/3 first strike creatures, which will likely dominate the red zone. Not to mention the benefits with damage-based removal like Gempalm, Sharpshooter, Tarfire, Sparksmith, Lightning Crafter, Siege-Gang Commander, Pyrokinesis, so on and so forth.

The thing is, this guy is only 1cc, which happens to be a spot that this deck has been sorely needing more of. And it already makes sense to run Mogg War Marshal for its synergy with Gempalm, Chieftan, and Krenko... and of course, Piledriver.

Obviously Goblins lists are very tight, and it's just not possible to run everything. That's fine. It's going to take some tweaking and playtesting to figure out just how many of these to run (probably 2), how many Piledrivers to run (my gut feeling is telling me 4), so on and so forth. Regardless, this new Goblin makes the deck much more aggressive against many more decks.

I can also see this new Goblin spawning some Sligh-type builds with Kuldotha Rebirth, Brightstone Ritual, other token spammers (possibly even EtW), Piledrivers, Chieftans, etc. Would be an interesting deck, at any rate.

Goblin Burrows/Contested War Zone also becomes an option.

[Korvo]

@ScatManX: I'm also going to test Punishing Goblins the next few Days/Weeks!

Ok your MUs were not so great, but i think testing against Jund would be interessting. Also against RUG or Esperblade. Because those decks are the most played at the moment. I would be very happy if you would keep us up to date.

[Hencules]

Piledriver isn't the only card that really benefits from Loyalist. Siege-gang commander and Loyalist are best friends too!

Having SGC practically ensures a battalion trigger and being able to sacrifice goblins which allready have done damage due to first strike (and trample) is a big thing. N00b question here: If you have SCG, loyalist and three tokens in play and attack with all 5 creatures, can you do damage to the player (first strike damage) and then sacrifice them to make it lethal?

Am I making a mistake?

[EDIT]: Never mind the second part, offcourse that's the case, it's allways been the case even without first strike....:rolleyes: Creatures that won't get lethal damage can be sacrificed... In combat however, SCG and Loyalist are buddies.

[Pee-Dee-2]

For all people who say, the Loyalist is good because of Piledriver:

Who of you played Goblin Tunneler in the past? he also makes an unblockable Piledriver (or other dudes like Lackey). I don't understand how the loyalist could be more than a sb card against Esper.

[SirTylerGalt]

For all people who say, the Loyalist is good because of Piledriver:

Who of you played Goblin Tunneler in the past? he also makes an unblockable Piledriver (or other dudes like Lackey). I don't understand how the loyalist could be more than a sb card against Esper.

Goblin Tunneler sucks. I don't see the point in bringing him up. It's like asking "Who of you played Wood Elemental in the past? He also has power and toughness that include a star. I don't understand how Tarmogoyf could be more than a sb card against creature decks."

Loyalist seems awesome. I might try to build a Goblin deck :)

[(nameless one)]

For all people who say, the Loyalist is good because of Piledriver:

Who of you played Goblin Tunneler in the past? he also makes an unblockable Piledriver (or other dudes like Lackey). I don't understand how the loyalist could be more than a sb card against Esper.

Because Tunneler costs 2 mana, has to be tapped to get the unblockable effect and doesn't have haste.

That's why.

Loyalist is better because it's effect kicks in the moment you go for the alpha strike.

PS. I just realized Loyalist also gives first strike. Now that's the tits.

[Justin]

I am also a sceptic. What is an army of 1/1's and 2/2's going to do with trample and first strike when attacking? Army Loyalist also suffers from Piledriver syndrome, meaning he is only relevant if you have board postition to attack with 3+ goblins. Piledrivers have been reduced to about a 2-of in many lists for this very reason. The token evasion ability is very interesting, and to the best of my knowlege completely unique in the game? Time will tell if it is any more than that. I hope I am wrong, but I don't see this as any more than a 1-of in the SB, at best.

I pretty much share the views above. Typically, players overreact and over-hype a new card when it is spoiled. I think that Loyalist is playable, but only in the right kind of goblin deck and in the right meta. You will need to play him in a version that runs four Goblin Piledriver, which means that you probably don't want him in token-style goblin decks that run Mogg War Marshal over Piledriver. Loyalist does seem to give the deck a boost in some matchups, particularly decks that run tokens, such as UWx control decks like Esperblade and Miracles.

So in the right meta, you could run him as a one-of that you can tutor for with Matron when he can give you the alpha strike win. Although, I suspect that most of the time, you will tutor for other goblins (Ringleader, Krenko, Siege-Gang, etc.) In a meta that doesn't feature a lot of decks with tokens, I would not play him in the maindeck.

[magicmerl]

@Scatman,

Some slight tweaks I can think of that might have made your matches better:
Goblin Sharpshooter is the bomb vs Elves
Thalia is decent vs storm
Ancient Grudge seems like the best card vs affinity

In what matchups do you want Punishing Fire? It seems super slow in a format that is really fast and only going to get faster.

Also, who is Tuktuk in your SB for?

[Avatara]

Ancient Grudge seems like the best card vs affinity
Isn't Shattering Spree a lot better if you are focusing on affinity?

[LeoCop 90]

Shattering spree isn't always better than ancient grudge, because we don't always have double/triple red mana to copy the spell,especially if we run wastes,caverns and ports. Ancient grudge only needs a taiga to be cast two times.
Aniway, if you have enough red mana sources in your deck, shattering spree is better vs affinity.

[Hanni]

You will need to play him in a version that runs four Goblin Piledriver, which means that you probably don't want him in token-style goblin decks that run Mogg War Marshal over Piledriver.

That's not correct. You most definitely want to be running Mogg War Marshal in the same deck as Goblin Piledriver. 2 tokens per MWM means bigger Driver's, and of course, bigger Gempalm's and bigger Krenko's.

[Avatara]

That's not correct. You most definitely want to be running Mogg War Marshal in the same deck as Goblin Piledriver. 2 tokens per MWM means bigger Driver's, and of course, bigger Gempalm's and bigger Krenko's.

Actually MWM got mainstream when Zoo got big.. people always used to run 4 Piledrivers before that. The current meta is midrange-control heavy. I don't think you really need MWM that badly.

[magicmerl]

Isn't Shattering Spree a lot better if you are focusing on affinity?
Arguably Shatterstorm is better than Shattering Spree vs affinity. But both are fairly expensive and slow.

It depends what you want. Affinity tends to win by having certain key artifacts like Cranial Plating out and crushing us with that. I like to kill just the major threat and ignore the rest, since they have a bunch of durdles, we have a bunch of durdles, and I like goblins over robots in that case. Inkmoth Nexus also dodges shattering spree.

In the example Scatman gave us, he crushed the opponent, who then proceeded to simply reload with thoughcast and another wave, then keep on trucking. I think that Ancient Grudge would have been better than Shattering Spree there.

[ScatmanX]

@Scatman,

Some slight tweaks I can think of that might have made your matches better:
Goblin Sharpshooter is the bomb vs Elves
Thalia is decent vs storm
Ancient Grudge seems like the best card vs affinity

In what matchups do you want Punishing Fire? It seems super slow in a format that is really fast and only going to get faster.

Also, who is Tuktuk in your SB for?
1 - I know Sharpshooter is awesome against Elves, but given how the 2 games played out, it would ave been useless.
2 - Agree. She, with combination of Chalices, could have won that match.
3 - Agree, and going in the discussion, I may prefer it over Spree. Being an instant is awesome due to the low cost of casting+Equipping Plating.
4 - P.Fire is great against Bug/Jund and Esper. It was awesome against Affinity too, but my topdeck skills could not match his... =/ Also, a 2cc removal is great against most decks when you want to connect Lackey T2.
5 - Tuktuk is for Bug and Jund mainly, since they can't exile it, but I was testing it against anything with Plague, and it proved itself quite great in the mirror. Against Affinity it would have been nice too, to have a colorless 5/5 to block Etchet Champion...
Thanks for the comments.


In the example Scatman gave us, he crushed the opponent, who then proceeded to simply reload with thoughcast and another wave, then keep on trucking. I think that Ancient Grudge would have been better than Shattering Spree there.
Exactly.
And I think Grudge is better because it's more useful in more MUs too...

[Pee-Dee-2]

@MrTylor and nameless One: Oh men. I didn't want to know if tunneler is good or bad. Of course he is not playable. I compared him with the Loyalist. Some people told, he will do great, because Piledrivers gain trample.
So, with tunneler, they are unblockable!

But if you don't play tuneler, you don't need Loyalist. First strike doesn't make the difference.

So don't hype a card which is not better than the ones we are able to play today.

[magicmerl]

@MrTylor and nameless One: Oh men. I didn't want to know if tunneler is good or bad. Of course he is not playable. I compared him with the Loyalist. Some people told, he will do great, because Piledrivers gain trample.
So, with tunneler, they are unblockable!

But if you don't play tuneler, you don't need Loyalist. First strike doesn't make the difference.

So don't hype a card which is not better than the ones we are able to play today.
Loyalist can attack on turn 1. Tunneler can't even be cast until turn 2 and then doesn't have an effect until turn 3. It's like you are equating Ancestrall Recall with Concentrate and then concluding that Ancestral is bad because Concentrate is.

Loyalist may or may not be playable. I'm certainly interested in trying him out in a list with 4 Piledrivers and some number of Chieftains.

[Final Fortune]

Yeah, I'm just 4xing Loyalist until it doesn't work out, I'd rather be unimpressed with this card via testing than miss the boat on what is probably the only other playable 1 drop next to Goblin Lackey since Mogg Fanatic got nerfed.

Anybody not playing 4 Piledriver and War Marshal is doing it wrong, War Marshal wasn't included for Zoo it was included for Tarmogoyf.dec. and I hear BUG is good.

Loyalist, War Marshall, Chiefton seems pretty boner inducing fwiw.

[jin]

First of all, Tarmogoyf VS goblins is mostly a joke. The deck has lands, creatures and artefacts. Tarmogoyf is mostly a non-factor in the Zoo match ups. I once had a guy board out his Tarmogoyfs against me. What made Mogg War Marshal main deck material was definitely Zoo since Steppe Lynx/Wild Nacatl and burns was a fast clock we couldn't deal with.

Second of all, Army Loyalist may seem like a good card at first glance, but after thinking about it, it really provides no real advantage outside of First Strike. Trample is only usable with Pile Driver. The deck consists of 1/1's and 2/2's. Trample will hardly ever be maximized. The biggest problem with Loyalist giving first strike is the assumption of a safe play. When you swing, your creatures can get removed with trigger on the stack missing the requirement to activate his ability, essentially sending your important goblins to their doom. The only redeeming factor is that this creature is a 1/1 haste for R.

Think about it. The one drop isn't what Goblins has been waiting for. Goblins has never had trouble getting damage through. The biggest problem with Goblins right now is that it isn't really viable as a control deck anymore. Rishadan Port is no longer effective vs the current metagame.

[GoboLord]

Update Notes

January 16th 2013
* moved Rest in Peace from "To-be-tested" section to the "Graveyard-hate section
* added the following cards to the to "To-be-tested" section
Boros Charm (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138698&stc=1&d=1357884481)
Army Loyalist
Gruul Charm (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138796&d=1358227363)


Especially Gruul Charm seems promissing to me.
I read the cards like this
Choose one -
(1) Go for the Alpha Strike (or connect with Goblin Lackey or deal massive amounts of damage); or
(2) Never use this ability; or
(3) Destroy all flying tokens + Vendillion Clique, then go for the Alpha Strike

The last ability can be used to let your opponent invest 2 or more turns to set up Spirit Token, then you just blow them up (together with an ocassional Vendillion Clique). Against UW Miracles you can even trade 1/1 creatures for blocking Angel tokens. I admit that this is not what you want as a SB card vs UW Miracles though. However, this card is a very appealing choice vs Esperbade and all non-flying aggro decks.
Thoughts?

[Hof]

Gruul Charm:
For (3) I would rather have Sharpshooter, and if (1) was useful, then Falter would have seen some play by now.

[FoxBlade]

Anybody not playing 4 Piledriver and War Marshal is doing it wrong, War Marshal wasn't included for Zoo it was included for Tarmogoyf.dec. and I hear BUG is good.

I'm not worried about tarmogoyf in this MU, I'm more worried about the delvers here. In my experience the Flying 3/2 hurts more than a vanilla beater that I can chump if I have to. Hell I'm even more worried about snapcaster than I am about tarmogoyf.

War marshal is good, I'm not sure that you need him as a 4 of though.

[LeoCop 90]

I hear a lot of people saying that goblin sharpshooter is the best card vs elves, almost an auto-win.
Do you realize how current elves decklist are constructed ? The last ones which made top 8 run 3-4 Natural Order that is used to play the recently printed Craterhoof Behemot from avacyn restored. This line of play allows them to consistently win by turn 3 or turn 4 at worst, because they play a lot of mana dudes and 3-4 Gaea's Cradle. Since now , elves usually didn't play natural order because the only possible targets were Regal Force and Progenitus wich are a bit slow because they're not an istant win like the behemot.
Of course they still have the possibility to combo off with Glimpse of Nature but now it's becoming less and less fundamental for their strategy.
So sharpshooter is a good card vs elves, but most of the time he won't have time to get active before we're dead. Every faster removal is better than sharpshooter because we must kill their early mana elves, and if we also manage to waste their cradle we can easily win. Of course the card that i would always want to have in hand vs elves is Pyrokinesis.

[orcanmail]

[QUOTE= I'm more worried about the delvers here. In my experience the Flying 3/2 hurts more than a vanilla beater that I can chump if I have to.

Tarfires help v Delvers, as do Pyros out of the SB


I've come to recent conclusions

Rishadan Ports don't do the job of locking down mana due to Hierarch's and Shamans etc

Tarfires are needed as fast 1cc removal

4 MWM & 4 Piledrivers are fantastic

Stingscourger essential

Gempalms are too slow without tarfires and don't reach tombstalkers etc, why MWM and stingscourger also needed

Warchief better than chieftains for speed and cheap ringleaders etc through caverns

Krenko win more card, 2 SGC as fatties more versatile. extra finishing direct damage and removal

TSH needed as artifact removal but only in SB

Engineered plagues require in SB Boartusk that is also immune to abrupt decay


So my list is

4 Lackey
4 Vial
4 Tarfire

4 MWM
4 Piledriver
2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm

4 Matron
4 Warchief

4 Ringleader
2 SGC

4 Caverns
4 Wasteland
13 Mountains

SB
3 Pyro
4 Chalice of Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Boartusk Liege

The list tries to keep the curve down, have fast removal and MWM chumps, to get to mid game ringleaders.
Of course lackey connect SGC followed by pilley if lucky, but MWM and pilleys also hurt!

As for enchantments, well mono red has that weakness and anarchy slow!

[fimo]

Tarfires are needed as fast 1cc removal


I m having some inner rejection for tarfires lately. The argument: it is better than other removals (bolt, punishing fire) because it is a goblin doesn t hold with this card. The advantage of being a goblin removal should be because you could tutor it up with matron (1) and you could flip it with ringleader (2). However, neither of these circumstances is going to be relevant for the following reasons:

(1) When are you realistically going to tutor tarfire with matron? Matron is a mid/late game card that you are going to cast T3 earliest. If you are tutoring up a removal you are going to get gempalm/stingscourger 99% of the times for obvious reasons.

(2) ringleader is also a late game card. You cast it to refill your hand with gas. You want to flip SCG, ringleaders, matrons, gempalms, krenko, piledrivers. Flipping tarfire is in most cases like flipping a late game lackey. Sure, better than nothing but it is probably not gonna flip the game around.

You need a tarfire effect in the early game to let lackey go nuts or to prevent stoneforge to survive her next upkeep. So if this is the scenario you want to use tarfires, fetching tarfire with matron or flipping them with ringleader in late game it is going to be irrelevant. You want them T1 or T2. For this reason I believe that if you want a tarfire effect it doesn t matter that much that it is tribal goblin. You want to have it in your first 7-9 cards anyways.

I do agree that a tarfire effect is needed nowadays. The most suitable ones for goblins are tarfire, bolt and punishing fire. Punishing Fire is the best top deck of all tree, therefore, I believe it has an edge over the others. Costing one mana more is irrelevant most of the times.

[Sasan]

I agree with fimo.

But please consider Swords to Plowshares.It is the best removal you could ask for.

[Remy]

So I'm going to start by saying that I am new here, and have read through this entire post and would like to thank everyone for the awesome discussions. It's really been helping me with the construction of my Goblins deck. :cool:

Now I'm going to make a suggestion, that most of you will probably yell at/curse/hate me for...I've been play testing goblins for about 3 months now, and am in full agreement that we need to become more explosive to keep pace with the current meta. My meta happens to be positively flooded with BUG and UW decks of all varieties. And what I've found is that our classic strategy of attacking our opponents mana base is largely invalid against most of the current meta (elves being the only exception to shut off gaea's cradle)

Has anyone thought of dropping wasteland and rishadan port?

In my play testing I'm finding when I do use them most of the time my opponent doesn't even flinch. And most of the current decklists I've been seeing have already cut port's already (since they are too slow in the current meta). Since that limits us to only 4 land hate cards, that also set our very mana-hungery deck back, why not drop it and attempt to use those 7-8 slots to try and speed us up a bit?

I'm going to be play testing with Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors in the usual port/waste spots on tuesday. Is this is an absolutely horrible idea? A good meta call for myself? Or perhaps a good boost that our beloved Goblins need at the moment?

I'm curious to hear your guys $0.02 :laugh:

[GoboLord]

So I'm going to start by saying that I am new here, and have read through this entire post and would like to thank everyone for the awesome discussions. It's really been helping me with the construction of my Goblins deck. :cool:

Now I'm going to make a suggestion, that most of you will probably yell at/curse/hate me for...I've been play testing goblins for about 3 months now, and am in full agreement that we need to become more explosive to keep pace with the current meta. My meta happens to be positively flooded with BUG and UW decks of all varieties. And what I've found is that our classic strategy of attacking our opponents mana base is largely invalid against most of the current meta (elves being the only exception to shut off gaea's cradle)

Has anyone thought of dropping wasteland and rishadan port?

In my play testing I'm finding when I do use them most of the time my opponent doesn't even flinch. And most of the current decklists I've been seeing have already cut port's already (since they are too slow in the current meta). Since that limits us to only 4 land hate cards, that also set our very mana-hungery deck back, why not drop it and attempt to use those 7-8 slots to try and speed us up a bit?

I'm going to be play testing with Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors in the usual port/waste spots on tuesday. Is this is an absolutely horrible idea? A good meta call for myself? Or perhaps a good boost that our beloved Goblins need at the moment?

I'm curious to hear your guys $0.02 :laugh:

This is about the most insightful idea that I've read in a few months.
I cannot judge yet wether Sol-Lands (Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, since they produce the same mana as Sol Ring) are a good idea or not and I'm also not sure about the number but I can share my experience and opinion with you.
Some 2 years ago I tested Ancient Tomb in Goblins, since I wanted to make more use of those 2R-costing Goblins (Matron, Sharpshooter, Tuktuk the Explorer, Mad Auntie, you name it) while having CHalice of the Void and Bllod Moon in MD. Back then someone already proposed such a list (Goblin Stompy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20049-Goblin-Stompy&highlight=goblin+stompy)).
While this all-in-focus onSol-Lands turned out to be a bad idea (or at least worse than the regular Vial-GOblin approach) I still liked the Sol-Lands in there. So my suggestions would be not to focus too much on abusing Sol-Lands.
Another thing I found out quite recently is that Wastelands are indeed not very effective at screwing your opponent. This usually only works out when you can effort to lose a manasource, which would be the case if you have 1 or more Aether Vials online. So, as you already figured out: manascrewing your opponent is not what you should be aiming at. If you are unsure if it works, dont do it. You need mana. You need lots of it - which is basically why you came up with the Sol-Land idea in the first place. However, we can't effort to cut Wasteland entirely since it gets us out of some ugly situations where opponent's utility lands are blocking our lines of play. Wasteland is therefore included to deal with Maze of Ith, any manland, Gaea's Cradle and Academy Ruins and stuff. I don't think it's a good idea to cut them entirely, although reducing their number is quite possible.

I really like to hear more about your testing results on the Sol-Land thing!

[max_goblin]

I have a dragon stompy and play with the deck for some time, so I can tell one thing or two.

Ancient tomb/city: I dont like this cards in our deck, tomb damages us, and most of the time you will not find use for it: warchief is 1RR, pile is 1R.. ok, we have ringleaders and matrons, seriosly, I dont want matron T2, ringleader sometimes, but seldom. Ok, sometimes it will be great, but city for example you blow most of the times, because we run a lot of lands.. If city gets exploded in dragon stompy with 18 lands, can you imagine what will happen running 20~22 lands? You can test it, but I think it will not work.

But chrome mox.. well, that is something I can think about. Chrome mox dont get wasted, and is not like everyone is running artifact removal MD. And if there is a deck in legacy that can run chrome mox and lose a card for it, is goblins. We draw a lot, and i usually find double lackey hand, when i know i dont need the other one. And one more thing, chrome mox + mountain = chalice 1 T1. This can win alone against TES, this can beat Belcher.

I have a crazy idea, a list very unusual, i will test it tomorrow against BUG and will report later.
Cya

[ScatmanX]

I'm going to be play testing with Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors in the usual port/waste spots on tuesday. Is this is an absolutely horrible idea? A good meta call for myself? Or perhaps a good boost that our beloved Goblins need at the moment?
I have played Ancient Tomb in different lists before, but the meta was different, and maybe today they might be a good choice.
If you're going to do that, think of 1cc removal, because usually you will want to escalate from 1cc to 3cc, so your 2cc removal will be worse.
Also, be aware that you'll play the game differently, because you'll be able to cast Matron and the likes before casting Warchief/Chieftain. That changes something.s

Let us know how it plays for you.

[Remy]

This is about the most insightful idea that I've read in a few months.


Thanks for the kind words!

And very true about the "problem" lands we have to deal with, my meta largely doesn't run mentioned cards, which may affirm my feeling that the sol-land thing is largely a meta call. I'll be sure to post my results, I'll be facebashing against BUG, Dredge and Might Quinn on tuesday so I'll have a decent variety to try against.



Ancient tomb/city: I dont like this cards in our deck, tomb damages us, and most of the time you will not find use for it: warchief is 1RR, pile is 1R.. ok, we have ringleaders and matrons, seriosly, I dont want matron T2, ringleader sometimes, but seldom. Ok, sometimes it will be great, but city for example you blow most of the times, because we run a lot of lands.. If city gets exploded in dragon stompy with 18 lands, can you imagine what will happen running 20~22 lands? You can test it, but I think it will not work.

I was a little worried about the RR costs as well, but my theory is that turn 3 dropping 2 piledrivers into play (off of 2 red sources and a sol-land) could help compensate. I had tried chome mox in early testing and found that often I didn't want to lose a card to it (we run plenty of copies but it feels opposed to our swarm strategy to lose one) Recently though I have been reconsidering Mox Diamond.

Since we typically run 22-24 lands anyway we have plenty of pitchable lands, and it gives us the same ramp, on top of helping with splashes, so this may get play tested Tuesday as well.


Also, be aware that you'll play the game differently, because you'll be able to cast Matron and the likes before casting Warchief/Chieftain. That changes something.s

Very true...and that may end up making it not worth it, but testing will tell :smile:

[orcanmail]

I m having some inner rejection for tarfires lately.

You need a tarfire effect in the early game to let lackey go nuts or to prevent stoneforge to survive her next upkeep. So if this is the scenario you want to use tarfires, fetching tarfire with matron or flipping them with ringleader in late game it is going to be irrelevant. You want them T1 or T2. For this reason I believe that if you want a tarfire effect it doesn t matter that much that it is tribal goblin. You want to have it in your first 7-9 cards anyways.

There are times when tarfire later on have either saved me or won me games

for example when i'm going down to a flipped delver, a matron into a tarfire saves my ass.

also at times i am going to die next turn and i am 2 damage short of killing my opponent in my turn, then i realise i have a matron that i vial in and burn them with my cheap 1cc tarfire.

So yes primarily tarfire is for early removal to control mana pump creatures and make way for lackey and kill stoneforges etc, but a few extra points of goblin burn can win games! Especially if you also play 2 SGC.

On the wasteland debate, they usually aren't there for mana screw, but in addition to destroying maze of ith etc, they can also keep an opponent off a colour. of course they can also slow them a bit if we have a vial. Rishadan ports are ineffective, but wastelands remain strong in legacy and we should still have enough red mana to cast our goblins.

[magicmerl]

I do agree that a tarfire effect is needed nowadays. The most suitable ones for goblins are tarfire, bolt and punishing fire. Punishing Fire is the best top deck of all tree, therefore, I believe it has an edge over the others. Costing one mana more is irrelevant most of the times.
Someone suggested Swords to Plowshares as well?

[Vandalize]

Hmm, what about Turbo-Goblins that have been pushed a little before Mental Misstep?

Lands [20]
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands

Dudes [31]
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Others [9]
4 AEther Vial
3 Chrome Mox
2 Warern Weirding

Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Anarchy

Just stomp face with Warren Instigator, and don't care about Deathrite Shaman&co.

[Final Fortune]

There are times when tarfire later on have either saved me or won me games

for example when i'm going down to a flipped delver, a matron into a tarfire saves my ass.

also at times i am going to die next turn and i am 2 damage short of killing my opponent in my turn, then i realise i have a matron that i vial in and burn them with my cheap 1cc tarfire.

So yes primarily tarfire is for early removal to control mana pump creatures and make way for lackey and kill stoneforges etc, but a few extra points of goblin burn can win games! Especially if you also play 2 SGC.

On the wasteland debate, they usually aren't there for mana screw, but in addition to destroying maze of ith etc, they can also keep an opponent off a colour. of course they can also slow them a bit if we have a vial. Rishadan ports are ineffective, but wastelands remain strong in legacy and we should still have enough red mana to cast our goblins.

This, I've played Goblins for 6 years and I can't even count how many times I've won games by gathering Mogg Fanatics with Goblin Ringleader and Goblin Matron in order to deal the last 1 to 4 points of damage, let alone being able to deal the last 2 to 8 damage. Whether or not it's the best removal spell is debatable, I'm a fan of Dismember in mono-red myself

@Orcanmail, I think your preference for Warchief over Chieftan may be biased by your low land count.

@Jin, anyone who says Tarmogoyf is a joke vs Goblins has never played the RUG match up and if the opponent is casting his removable spells on Army Loyalist as opposed to any other Goblin then I'm going to fist pump that I just traded my one drop for a Lightning Bolt instead of for a Piledriver or Chieftan. If the opponent kills Army Loyalist and removes first strike and trample, then your Goblins still trade evenly without first strike. If the opponent doesn't kill Army Loyalist, Piledriver may as well have flying.

[Fuwatanity]

Hmm, what about Turbo-Goblins that have been pushed a little before Mental Misstep?

Lands [20]
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands

Dudes [31]
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Others [9]
4 AEther Vial
3 Chrome Mox
2 Warern Weirding

Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Anarchy

Just stomp face with Warren Instigator, and don't care about Deathrite Shaman&co.

I really like Winstigator. I'm playing this list atm:

1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Warren Instigator
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Tarfire
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
1 Taiga
1 Gemstone Caverns
2 Plateau

SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Confusion in the Ranks
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter

It's not 100% "turbo", has some more utility in it.
I feel like I don't need Warchief with 4 Winstigator (i believe everyone here is gonna hate me for that sentence? :D), 4 Lackeys and 4 Vials + Chieftain who makes Winstigator a nice basher do work out.
I like Kiki over Krenko because he gives more utility and not only the option to kill with tokens.
Gemstone Caverns, best land in legacy :DD
on SB im not sure at all ...

Unfortunatly I wasn't able to test this at all since my local legacy community is kinda ... "dormant" and the next local tour is in feburary.


I'd be happy to be proven wrong on my choice, but they just feel right for me. pls no arguments like "we had this allrdy chieftain is no warchief, he sux"

[GoboLord]

This, I've played Goblins for 6 years and I can't even count how many times I've won games by gathering Mogg Fanatics with Goblin Ringleader and Goblin Matron in order to deal the last 1 to 4 points of damage, let alone being able to deal the last 2 to 8 damage. Whether or not it's the best removal spell is debatable, I'm a fan of Dismember in mono-red myself
I also like dismember. And I like playing with goblin lists that run many removal spells. However I think right now we have a very solid collection of goblin shaped removal:
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1-2 Stingscourger
1-2 Sparksmith
1-2 Army Loyalist (although I dont like this card, he IS indeed kind of a removal spell vs Esperblade in the sense that removal means "clearing the way").



@Orcanmail, I think your preference for Warchief over Chieftan may be biased by your low land count.
I think YOUR preference for Chieftain over Warchief may be biased by your high land count. ;-)



@Jin, anyone who says Tarmogoyf is a joke vs Goblins has never played the RUG match up and if the opponent is casting his removable spells on Army Loyalist as opposed to any other Goblin then I'm going to fist pump that I just traded my one drop for a Lightning Bolt instead of for a Piledriver or Chieftan. If the opponent kills Army Loyalist and removes first strike and trample, then your Goblins still trade evenly without first strike. If the opponent doesn't kill Army Loyalist, Piledriver may as well have flying.
+1 for the bold part


Apart from that:
I don't get the fuzz here. What's wrong with the good, old, solid Goblin deck as we know it? Is it really necessary to consider those weird lists with Punishing Fire, Sol-Lands, Chrome Mox, you name it? Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that people shouldn't try things out, but we have to realize that Goblins is currently a major player in the format and that the deck is as well-positioned as it could be. If someone has trouble in dealing with the other DTBs I suggest just to playtest more and play tight. Please don't be so desperate to solely rely on your SB or on other weird cardchoices. If you lose a match or two against other DTBs thats just fine, since they are DTB for a reason. if you can confidently say to have an even MU against RUG, BUG and Esperblade thats as far as you can go.

[Avatara]

Anybody not playing 4 Piledriver and War Marshal is doing it wrong, War Marshal wasn't included for Zoo it was included for Tarmogoyf.dec. and I hear BUG is good.
That's not true

On a side note: maybe we could replace Rishadan Ports with more Skirk Prospectors? They can give us that speed boost when needed, help against Jitte and Batterskull. I doubt our opponents like to spend removal on a prospector. Maybe naturally drawing them is better than having to spend a Matron on it?

/edit:

Isn't Boggard Mob very good in the current meta? It can't be killing by Decay, survives lightning bolts and is bigger than most threats (unless goyf is 5/6). It can even block Batterskull and survive. It also helps rebuild after a a sweeper from U/W miracles. If your opponent doesn't answer it immediately it will win the game for you.

[Humphrey]

Speed Goblins
Discuss!

4Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Mogg War Marshal
14 Mountain
3 Wasteland
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Goblin Guide

[ScatmanX]

Apart from that:
I don't get the fuzz here. What's wrong with the good, old, solid Goblin deck as we know it? Is it really necessary to consider those weird lists with Punishing Fire, Sol-Lands, Chrome Mox, you name it? Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that people shouldn't try things out, but we have to realize that Goblins is currently a major player in the format and that the deck is as well-positioned as it could be. If someone has trouble in dealing with the other DTBs I suggest just to playtest more and play tight. Please don't be so desperate to solely rely on your SB or on other weird cardchoices. If you lose a match or two against other DTBs thats just fine, since they are DTB for a reason. if you can confidently say to have an even MU against RUG, BUG and Esperblade thats as far as you can go.
Just healthy brainstorm I guess.
If I were to play a big tournament, than I'd play a standard list by now.


Speed Goblins
Discuss!
Playtest!
(only comment I can give without playtesting is that Matron looks better than Ringleader there)

[Vacrix]

@Humphrey

I like that list! But it needs moar Tarfire and the playset of Gempalm. Gempalm is one of the best cards in the core and it gets that much better if you have a Loyalist in play to take advantage of First Strike.

I think the problem Loyalist will encounter, though, is that you will have to start cutting cards from the Core to incorporate Loyalist. Its probably going to evolve into an entirely different build. With so much MWM, Chieftain get better. So does Piledriver, Krenko, and Loyalist. Then again, Warchief gets worse. The best way to approach altering the Core is probably to cut a Warchief. Matron and Ringleader are far too important to the deck to cut. Loyalist looks best as a 3'of. As a 1'of, its basically just a bad Matron target, and at 2'of, you aren't really justifying playing more Chieftains and Piledrivers.


I'm a huge fan of Goblin Bushwacker because it does some really retarded things with MWM and Loyalist. I don't think its worth running as a 4'of though.

I'd try..

CRACKLINS
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Mogg War Marshal
14 Mountain
3 Wasteland
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Goblin Guide

[FoxBlade]

Has anyone thought of dropping wasteland and rishadan port?

and



Rishadan Ports don't do the job of locking down mana due to Hierarch's and Shamans etc

You know I'd like to discuss port a bit more. I actually love this card. Playing a turn 1 vial and then turn 2 hitting them with a port and locking that land down. Drop that lackey on their EOT and plan on using it to play SGC. Then you hit their other land with with that wasteland. Ah. So Magical when that happens.

These days now we have Cavern of Souls, which is a fantastic card. Problem is, it really screws you when you need red mana to play non-creature spells or abilities (No GEM-PALM!). It's happened more often than I'd like and more importantly, it's cost me games! For me they have to go. The question now becomes how many to cut?

I figure that the only reason to include them is to put people off mana in the first couple of turns, so to really get the most out of them, I think it's best to play it as a 4-of or not at all. So I'm going to cut them for some basics and see how that goes.

[ScatmanX]

Matron and Ringleader are far too important to the deck to cut.
Then why does your list has 0 Matrons?

[Vacrix]

Then why does your list has 0 Matrons?

Lol.. completely missed that. I was just making edits to Humphrey's list. Yeah.. gotta make room for Matrons.

[Sir_tokealot]

Heres my goblin list i've been brewing for the current metagame.

4 vial
4 lackey
3 tarfire
4 gempalm incinerator
3 mogg war marshal
3 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader

1 skirk prospector
1 tin-street hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin piledriver
1 Goblin chieftain
1 Goblin sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-gang Commander

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan port
4 cavern of souls
4 mountain
2 taiga
5 of your favorite red fetches


Reasonings for card choices:
tarfire is very good in the current meta and kills all relevant creatures except for tarmogoyf and the few survivors of the maverick deck. flyers are the problematic creatures that we cannot chump block. also it does not get blown out by lightning bolt early game. another reason is think of the bug delver or control magic on the draw. they play turn 1 deathrite shaman and even if you drop a lackey you cannot incinerator it on turn 2, its just not an option. and to be honest even if the lackey does not connect it is still worth it to kill the deathrite shaman, because if you dont the bug decks go freaking bonkers and drop turn 2 liliana / engineered plague into turn 3 jace or god knows what else(pernicious deed). also abrupt decay destroys piledriver which is all over the meta.

incinerator is too amazing to not run 4 of. i dont think ive ever lost a game to a fair deck (non combo) when i drew 2 naturally before being below 10 life

only 3 warchiefs because the 4th is a chieftain 1 of for utility. i play chieftain because he opens up a whole new avenue of turn 3 kills without warchief. he also comboes nicely with krenko.

for a long time i played without skirk prospector because i thought he was bad after damage came off the stack. in my most recent starcity (worcester 2012) i placed 58th (first time money) and it was on the back of this 1/1 in MULTIPLE games. and to be honest he was my fucking mvp of the day. round 1 i beat an affinity player who finished 11th with an accelerated and hasted sharpshooter because of prospector. During round 4 my game 1 against B/W stoneblade went 48 minutes, and around 25 minutes he got batterskull in play. 2 turns later he found jitte and equipped the same turn i got skirk prospector and he held off my opponent to 28 life and stopped every jitte token. eventually i made a big enough army to do a multiple attack alpha strike by leaving enough blockers to not get blown out and sacrificing whatever the jitte equipped creature ever dealt damage to. you should have seen the look on his face when he lost a nearly 50 minute game which he had batterskull carrying jitte and nearly 30 life for 15 minutes, 20+ turns. round 6 i almost shat my pants when i realised he was the 2nd best card i could have to face dredge with. especially with mogg war marshal and sharpshooter. i easily defeated dredge game 1 and 2.

i like tin street hooligan over tuktuk because im more afraid of jitte than batterskull, who gives a shit if they gain like 8-12 life and put you at a comfortable 8-12 life. as long as they arent killing an extra 2 creatures on every combat phase i can still win.

sharpshooter is an absolute house against maverick, elves (lol + tarfire, gempalm, and pyrokinesis gg brah), death and taxes, affinity, merfolk (they cant get into a combat and win, its gg if they dont play removal. just kill kira), dredge (ive killed 15+ zombies before with extra damage to the face and goblins still alive. also shuts off every narcomoeba, ichorid, and putrid imp), also good against lingering souls, dark confidant, vendillion clique, snapcaster, the list goes on.

i believe that 2 siege-gang commander is redundant. obviously when your playing off the topdeck siege-gang is usually better but krenko has some insanely explosive draws all the time and can be used in turn 3 kills. which opens up an entire side of your deck to draw for the turn 3 kill (chieftain and mogg war marshal instead of the traditional piledriver + siege gang + warchief). also Bug decks have an extremely hard time of dealing with krenko without thoughtseizing him. he lives through abrupt decay, and if you play him they need 7 mana on their next turn to pernicious deed him. hes really really good i wouldnt steer you wrong. ive had amazing success with him and it just gives the deck way more utility and eases the mana curve more than running 2 siege-gangs. how often do you rip a 1 off strictly when your top decking with nothing in play???

i will never ever in my entire life run this deck again without 4 cavern of souls.

i strongly suggest playing 4 wasteland AND 4 rishadan port. port is rediculous against combo decks especially show and tell and high tide. if you get ahead in the early game with lackey or vial a single wasteland can be devastating, backed up with port every turn after it can be GG really quick. also if you know the format and understand your opponents strategy to beat you and know the general staples in their deck you can easily mana screw them off of jace, liliana, terminus, moat/humility, wrath of god and especially supreme verdict.

i run 2 taiga for only 1 reason, so the original does not get wastelanded and then i have none to call upon later in the game.

all input is appreciated.

[GoboLord]

/edit:

Isn't Boggard Mob very good in the current meta? It can't be killing by Decay, survives lightning bolts and is bigger than most threats (unless goyf is 5/6). It can even block Batterskull and survive. It also helps rebuild after a a sweeper from U/W miracles. If your opponent doesn't answer it immediately it will win the game for you.

That's exactly the card I stumbled over when I went through my binder yesterday. I also think that Boggart Mob is a good choice atm. However there are 2 concerns that I have:
(1) As I'm perceiving the meta right now we need cards that help us in early game (like, to handle early Delvers/Stoneforge Mystics/Deathrite Shamans) while still be able to make our usual setup in the face of removal spells (Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares and Decay - which unfortunately hit Aether Vial). My guess would be that Boggart Mob might not help us with those problems. Maybe it's indeed a good choice to run more lands and/or Skirk Prospectors.

(2) due to it's manacosts we can't really affort running more than 1 copy (maybe 2) of Boggart Mob. However, the good thing is that with Caverns + Vials + Lackeys alone you will be able to reliably drop him, even without any Badlands (even before Caverns were printed I used to run 1 Wort Boggart Mob in a otherwise mono-R list, which was perfectly good).

Apart from that, I think that Thalia in MD is THE single best choice against the top contenders: Esperblade, BUG COntrol and RUG Thresh.

[ScatmanX]

Apart from that, I think that Thalia in MD is THE single best choice against the top contenders: Esperblade, BUG COntrol and RUG Thresh.
Funny how I just rebuilt Rw goblins yesterday.

[jrw1985]

Outta the DTB forum.

I'm cool with that. Too many E Plagues and not enough Goblins players at big events recently anyway. I seriously haven't seen a single tournament report from GP Denver that has reported on even 1 Goblin match.

[Korvo]

Funny how I just rebuilt Rw goblins yesterday.

Are you done with the Punishing Goblins idea?

[jrw1985]

Speed Goblins
Discuss!

4Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Wardriver
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Mogg War Marshal
14 Mountain
3 Wasteland
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Goblin Guide

I've been goldfishing a similar build and have come to the conclusion that this version of goblins is just a Sligh deck, and not a very good one at that. Goblins has a tremendous amount board control that this kind of build doesn't support. Vial + Matron gives you significant control over the board state. Trying to maximize Piledriver + Loyalist makes the deck less interactive, so it becomes much worse in the late game and only Marginally Better in the early game.

[ScatmanX]

Are you done with the Punishing Goblins idea?
Not 100%
I'm having some a lot of time to practice these few days, so am testing a bunch of stuff.

[TheRedBaron]

Outta the DTB forum.

I'm cool with that. Too many E Plagues and not enough Goblins players at big events recently anyway. I seriously haven't seen a single tournament report from GP Denver that has reported on even 1 Goblin match.

I think after Legion Loyalist from Gatecrash comes out and people splash for Disenchant/Thalia. I'm sure goblins will receive more brews/attention. At least for a while... First Striking, Trample Piledrivers that can't be blocked by Germ Tokens seem strong.


I've been goldfishing a similar build and have come to the conclusion that this version of goblins is just a Sligh deck, and not a very good one at that. Goblins has a tremendous amount board control that this kind of build doesn't support. Vial + Matron gives you significant control over the board state. Trying to maximize Piledriver + Loyalist makes the deck less interactive, so it becomes much worse in the late game and only Marginally Better in the early game.

I wouldn't go as far as building Gobbos around Piledriver + loyalist.

I'm more along the lines of a W splash, integrating Loyalist into Vial Denial gobs.


Not 100%
I'm having some a lot of time to practice these few days, so am testing a bunch of stuff.

I'm not sold on this idea yet.

---------------------------

edit

Here is my initial Loyalist build:


3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
2 Siege-gang Commander
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
1 Stingscourger
2 Mogg Warmarshal
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Tuk Tuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Æther Vial

2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
4 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls

//SB

4 Disenchant
1 Boar-tusk Liege
3 Thalia
3 Rest in Peace
2 Pyrokenesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

[jrw1985]

I think after Legion Loyalist from Gatecrash comes out and people splash for Disenchant/Thalia. I'm sure goblins will receive more brews/attention. At least for a while... First Striking, Trample Piledrivers that can't be blocked by Germ Tokens seem strong.

Peep this, holmes. Loyalist and Thalia both = Soldier. So you actually have a T1 and T2 Cavern on Soldier play when you splash W.

Too bad Loyalist isn't going to be a 4-of... Stupid non-cumulative effects.

[TheRedBaron]

Peep this, holmes. Loyalist and Thalia both = Soldier. So you actually have a T1 and T2 Cavern on Soldier play when you splash W.

Too bad Loyalist isn't going to be a 4-of... Stupid non-cumulative effects.

That's actually cool :D

Check out my list in the post above.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I feel like the "can't be blocked by tokens" was tossed in, just to piss on Batterskull.

[Avatara]

Too bad Loyalist isn't going to be a 4-of... Stupid non-cumulative effects.
That's only a valid argument if you consider that you opponent will never kill your Loyalists.

[Mr. Froggy]

I played a few test games vs UW Miracles, and I felt all games were not completely unwinnable, like a 50/50 match-up. The only times I thought I would lose were when he would Miracle an Entreat the Angels, but other than that, they were all good games. If I had a Loyalist in play, I would've been happy, lol.

[zulander]

How do you beat Zoo?

[ScatmanX]

I played a few test games vs UW Miracles, and I felt all games were not completely unwinnable, like a 50/50 match-up. The only times I thought I would lose were when he would Miracle an Entreat the Angels, but other than that, they were all good games. If I had a Loyalist in play, I would've been happy, lol.
We should beat UW Miracles usually. It's one of our good Matchups. Don't overextend into Terminus, but don't play too safe. 99% of the time you should Matron for Ringleader. It's quite tricky to play, but it's our game to win. Pithing Needle is good SB card, so is Thorn of Amethyst, and maybe 1-2 Surgical Extractions (only use in response of them tapping Top on your turn. That way they'll lose their top card, and the Miracle with it), while ReB was not. Ports are very good here. Delay their play to the max. Use Ports to shut them off WW, and use them o your turn to prevent a mid-combat Terminus. If you'll use it on your turn, the best time is during the Draw phase, because you have more information than on the upkeep, and you ca play/Vial dudes on your mainphase and attack.


How do you beat Zoo?
With Wasteland, Vial, Mogg Warmarchall and Stingscourger (and Ports). Chumpblock the shit out of them, until you can get Matron->Ringleader going, and you win by card advantage. Do not try to race them. They have bigger dudes and faster removal., but only Library as CA. Only Gempalm when you're SURE you'll kill a dude. Cut them of a color if you can. Preferably Green, since it's almost all their dudes, ad has 0 Instants. Piledriver is bad. SB Kinesis help. You need to use them very wisely. Not in the early game, but later, when you chump 2-3 guys, and finish them off with Kinesis. Trade life for board presence until you're at 10 life. You'll need the board presence for Gempalm and for the kill. Going below 10 is bad, since they may have a lot of burn, but do what you have to do. I've come to find out that having dudes is more important than life in the early game. Bring TSH or Tuktuk if you have ANY reason to believe they might have Jitte.
Depending on your build it can be a good or awful matchup.

[jrw1985]

How do you beat Zoo?

Welcome to 2010.

[Korvo]

Yesterday i tested Punishing Goblins vs UR Delver and went 5:2. Its really great to finish every creature with PF UR Delver has to offer. But on the other side i realise how strong Price of Progress is. This card finished me off twice. Well there are not so much decks who play PoP so im not really worried about it.

Here is my list:

Deck:
4 Grove
4 Waste
4 Caverns
1 Taiga
5 Mountain
5 Fetch

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader

4 Warchief
1 Chieftain

3 MWM
1 Piledriver
1 TSH

4 Punishing Fire
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

1 Krenko
1 SGC

SB:
2 Kinesis
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Boartusk Liege
2 Red Elemental Blast

My SB is not at the final state but i think its ok. (its nearly identical with the one from ScatmanX)

Last thing i have to say is that i always had enough mana to cast PF and make the "combo" work so the mana base is very stable.

I will test against Jund this weekend. I will keep you up to date.

[jrw1985]

Some quick math. Some important implications!

If you want to make a land drop each turn for the first 4 turns, you should be running 23 lands. I think making 4 land drops is a strategically significant number for us, considering our most important mid-game card is cc4 (Ringleader) and Wasteland means we are often shorting ourselves also. Making our land drops is very important.

On the play, cards drawn thru turn 4 = 10
On the draw, cards drawn thru turn 4 = 11

On the play: 60 cards in deck / 10 cards drawn = 6 cards in deck / cards drawn
Since you want to make 4 land drops over the first 4 turns...
(4 land cards drawn) x (6 cards in deck / cards drawn) = 24 Land cards in deck

This is simply saying that on the Play you will want 24 lands in your deck in order for the proportion of land cards in your deck to be consistent with making a land drop each turn for the first 4 turns. Easy.

On the draw: 60 cards in deck / 11 cards drawn = 5.45 cards in deck / cards drawn
Since you want to make 4 land drops over the first 4 turns...
(4 land cards drawn) x (5.45 cards in deck / cards drawn) = 21.8 Land cards in deck, rounds up to 22 Lands

This is simply saying that on the Draw you will want 22 lands in your deck in order for the proportion of land cards in your deck to be consistent with making a land drop each turn for the first 4 turns.

Since you cannot control whether you will go be on the play or draw I think you should just play the average of the two land requirements, which is 23 lands. It won't be the idea number if you're on the play G1, but I've been running 22 lands for long enough that I know it can be done easily with 23.

MORE IMPORTANTLY
If you run 24 lands MD it is entirely mathematically reasonable to side OUT 2 lands when on the draw.
If you run less than 24 Lands MD it is entirely reasonable to side IN lands when on the play, up to 24 lands.

I'm going to start brewing lists with 23 lands MD and 1 SB. The SB land I'm going to start testing is Smoldering Spires because it adds utility when on the play following up a T1 Lackey.

Another thing I was thinking about what the number of Cheat cards we need to run. The Cheat cards that matter are Lackey, Vial, and Instigator. I generally always mulligan to a Cheat card because they are what drives the Goblin engine. Without them you are just stuck with wayyy too many expensive cards in hand. So I want 1 Cheat in my opening 7. So, 1/7th of my deck must be Cheat cards.

60/7 = 8.57 ~ rounds up to 9. 9 Cheat cards. 4 Vial, 4 Lackey, and 1 Instigator. Vial and Lackey are the best just because they're 1-drops. Instigator gets to fill that 9th slot.

So, mathmatically speaking, if you want to have a Cheat card in your opening hand AND make your land drops, you will need 9 Cheat cards and 24 Lands in your 75. I'm advocating 23 lands MD, 1 SB, so you can side 1 land out when on the draw and side 1 land in when on the play.

[Avatara]

@jrw: fetching would change those calculations

/edit: the enemy can also wasteland our lands and/or cause us to discard them

[LeoCop 90]

Nice calculations... they confirm my feeling that 23 lands is the right number in a standard build. I'm currently running 22 lands + 1 prospector, but i would like to make room for a 23rd land because , as you said, we're often sacrificing wasteland and using fetches.

[jrw1985]

@jrw: fetching would change those calculations

/edit: the enemy can also wasteland our lands and/or cause us to discard them

Good luck finding someone willing to write a comprehensive interaction model to calculate all possibilities of getting Wasted, Hymned, and fetching as they effect your necessary land count. Some calculations are better done in a vacuum.

As it stands, my calculations only state what proportion of your deck needs to be lands in order to draw a similar proportion of lands in your first 4 turns. They do not take into account the effects of Wastes, or Hymns, or Fetches, because all those effects are negligible. They are all more a result of the variance of gameplay and matchups than they are pertinent to my deckbuilding calculations.

Using the same calculation style I've decided that a good starting-off point for building a goblins deck follows the following design:

23 Lands
9 Cheats
6 Haste
8 CA
7 Removal
7 Flex

[Avatara]

Good luck finding someone willing to write a comprehensive interaction model to calculate all possibilities of getting Wasted, Hymned, and fetching as they effect your necessary land count. Some calculations are better done in a vacuum.
I'm not asking for that.. I'm just noting that you can't reliably get to four mana by turn four with the current version of the deck. It's like saying that you will kill your opponent on turn three or that your Lackey will connect.

[Pinoy Goblin]

I played a few test games vs UW Miracles, and I felt all games were not completely unwinnable, like a 50/50 match-up. The only times I thought I would lose were when he would Miracle an Entreat the Angels, but other than that, they were all good games. If I had a Loyalist in play, I would've been happy, lol.

If u say that the UW Miracles match up is unwinnable sometimes, I think your playing your deck WRONG, this is the strongest match up we have almost 75-80% winnable, never lost to UW miracles on all of my tourneys. Well anyways here are some tips on how I play my UW Miracles match up:

1. Dont over extend on your creature drops I always stay on 3-4pts. of damage tempting them to use terminus
2. Always use your MATRON on getting Ringleaders to refill your hand these helps when you have a clear board via Terminus and starting over again
3. Usually a resolved Aether vial wins us games
4. Cavern of souls makes them cry early game making most of their spells USELESS

- Hope these helps fellow warchief!!!

[Mr. Froggy]

I felt it was unwinnable when he would Entreat for 3-4, I can take care of 2 angels, but damn.... in 10 games, I saw Entreat maybe 8 times and it was rough. :(

[Amon Amarth]

@jrw1985: Excellent post. I've run 23 lands forever and I rarely have problems hitting my land drops in my first four turns. I'm intrigued by the idea of a singleton Warren Instigator. Something I'll have to play around with.

[GoboLord]

Some quick math. Some important implications!
On the play: 60 cards in deck / 10 cards drawn = 6 cards in deck / cards drawn
Since you want to make 4 land drops over the first 4 turns...
(4 land cards drawn) x (6 cards in deck / cards drawn) = 24 Land cards in deck

[...]

On the draw: 60 cards in deck / 11 cards drawn = 5.45 cards in deck / cards drawn
Since you want to make 4 land drops over the first 4 turns...
(4 land cards drawn) x (5.45 cards in deck / cards drawn) = 21.8 Land cards in deck, rounds up to 22 Lands


Hey there,

although I intuitively agree with your conclusion (for reasons I will explain later on) I do not understand how you rot there, i.e. I don't understand why your calculations are correct. Could you please explain a little more in detail how you came up with the calculation (especially the cold part)?

On a different note:
Yesterday I did a little playtesting with a friend, because I wanted to find out (1) how good Boggart Mob is in general and (2) how good Cabal Therapy is against RUG Thresh.
Here are our conclusions:
* Boggart Mob was surprisingly bad. My friends suggestions was to run Dismember instead, since the card takes care of what Boggart Mob was supposed to take care of: Goyfs, Stalkers and Germs - with the benefits that DIsmember is (a) cheaper and (b) takes care of SFM, Delver and Deathrite Shaman as well (which is obviously huge, given the current meta).
* Cabal Therapy was also not as good as I hoped it would be. Against RUG Thresh it has direct competition with Perish (which is the next-best SB choice). Perish turned out to be better in almost all situations where I landed Cabal Therapy.
* And: we agreed that running 23 or more lands is probably what we we want to be doing. Also we concluded that cutting wastelands to 3 copies might be a reasonable move. The problems that I'm seeing right now is that the current DTBs have an easiy time dealing with both Lackey and Vial, which in turn means that we must rely more on playing Goblins by tapping lands (sad but true). To do this we have to do exctly 3 things: (1) lower our overall manacurve (to not get in those unpleasant situation where you will reaveal to your opponent 2 Chieftains, 1 Krenko and 1 Boggart Mob that were sitting on your hand the whole game), (2) run more lands in general, to be able to make a land drop in each of the first 3-4 turns and (3) praise Cavern of Souls in MU where your opponent wants to use blue spells.

[Vacrix]

Perhaps Mogg Boggart would be better used with creatures with CIP effects, ie. MWM, Matron, Ringleader, Stingscourer.. Vial or play Mogg Boggart right after you play one of those creatures, and then you bypass the upkeeps on Stingscourer or MWM, or you get the effect again if they kill the creature. 5/5 is a lot of board presence for Goblins, and it gets to play dirty with the CIPs. So if it wasn't working, perhaps you need to play more the of CIP goblins to get the greatest utility out of Boggart.

[Bongo]

Hi all,

I've been having very good results with the following list:

4: Vial, Lackey, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, Piledriver
2: Gempalm, Marshal, Stingscourger, Chieftain, Tarfire
1: Krenko, SGC

12 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
4 Port

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Boartusk Liege
3 REB
2 Pyrokinesis


Pretty straightforward. A few things I discovered through playing a lot of games:

- I have been very happy with 24 lands and 12 basic Mountain (the best land in Magic). Goblins are very mana-hungry, and you can't afford to miss a land-drop in the first three turns of a game. I'm rarely flooded, since Wasteland tends to get used immediately, and Ports absorb a lot of mana. Besides, there are a lot of decks that run mana-denial themselves and I'm more than happy to draw a lot of lands against them. Abrupt Decay indirectly forces you to run more lands, since you can't rely on Vial anymore to get you out of a mana-screw. No fetchlands and no splash, because the vulnerability to Stifle and the lost lifepoints really hurt when I tested a two-color build. Red also has good sideboard options.

- 2 Chieftain & 2 Tarfire maindeck: These are really good against decks packing Deathrite Shaman. Chieftain makes blocking virtually impossible and allows you to recover quickly from discard spells. Tarfire is excellent right now, because it removes an early Deathrite Shaman, Delver of Secrets, Stoneforge Mystic and Mother of Runes. Bigger creatures can be comforably bounced with Stingscourger (who is also really good with Chieftain btw) or overrun with Piledrivers.

- Krenko is really sick, especially with the 6 haste-Goblins.

- Piledriver gets often boarded out, but I think you need 4 in the maindeck to have a chance against combo decks. With 2 Chieftain maindeck, there probability of achieving a turn 3 kill gets higher.

- I like Relic more than splashing Rest in Peace, because the additional card really helps in grindy matchups like Jund or BUG. I play 4 copies, because in the matchups where you need Relic, you want to see it early and often.

- Chalice has been very versatile, I boarded it in against Storm, High Tide, Elves, RUG Delver and Belcher. While not game-breaking, it's allows you to develop your game-plan and disrupt simultaneously, buying you precious time. When I resolved Chalice for X=1, it was devastatingly good.

- Boartusk Liege is against Engineered Plague, which every well-built black deck should have in its sideboard.

- Maindeck Scrapper or Hooligan were dead too many times (at least Gempalm cycles and Tarfire goes to the face), I think it's fine to bring these in from the sideboard.