[Deck] Goblins

[goblinsplayer]

has anyone here tried the chrome mox/instagator build? I was wondering if it was good considering there is a good amount of combo in my meta.

[ScatmanX]

has anyone here tried the chrome mox/instagator build? I was wondering if it was good considering there is a good amount of combo in my meta.
Tried? We created it.
The OP has a lot of info, and so does some of the Reports there.
And yes, it's a great build to play in combo-infested metagames.

[orcanmail]

Still trawling through my goblin cards and came to my goblin balloon brigade. They're good for the mana curve and have flying evasion for 1red. Good for blocking flyers, and can fight through moat.

Shame my beta cards don't make all goblins fly as per the wording on the beta cards, but still although weak, they can fly themselves, and with chieftains could hit for extra damage.

Thoughts / comments?

[TsumiBand]

Still trawling through my goblin cards and came to my goblin balloon brigade. They're good for the mana curve and have flying evasion for 1red. Good for blocking flyers, and can fight through moat.

Shame my beta cards don't make all goblins fly as per the wording on the beta cards, but still although weak, they can fly themselves, and with chieftains could hit for extra damage.

Thoughts / comments?

In a world of Lackeys and Instigators I'd rather see Battle Squadron, and I'm only half-not-serious. It has received errata that makes it a Goblin, has p/t equal to the number of creatures you control, and has flying. Sort of a poopy Reckless One, although ideally you control a haste-granting Goblin.

Otherwise if Moat's a real problem I'd be inclined to look for alternative wins like Sharpshooter + SGC + Prospector or some similarly goofball tech. Anarchy? xP

[jrw1985]

Just run K Grip. It has many many more applications than flying goblins. Moat is a rare and narrow threat. Building your sb to beat it is wasteful.

[Avatara]

Tried? We created it.That's not true.. the Chrome Mox build was created by a group of Dutch players. They made a series of Magic Online videos with it and someone posted a link to those on this forum.

[ScatmanX]

That's not true.. the Chrome Mox build was created by a group of Dutch players. They made a series of Magic Online videos with it and someone posted a link to those on this forum.
Adaptive Convergence?
I don't recall the link, but ok.

@Flying goblins: Just don't.
K. Grip, Disenchant, SharpShooter, Lightning Crafter, SGC, and Kiki-Jiki-Prospector to help, is more than enough. Also, Rishadan Port.

[GoboLord]

Avatara is right there: I found the link on the Dutch Legacy board and posted it here. So, yes the list was created by some Dutch players, but as far as I know ScatmanX here is the only person who really can report some success with the list. Also I think he's the person who developed further to what it looks like today.

//EDIT:
I found the posting that started the discussion back then: Nostalgia (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=527486&viewfull=1#post527486)

[ScatmanX]

Avatara is right there: I found the link on the Dutch Legacy board and posted it here. So, yes the list was created by some Dutch players, but as far as I know ScatmanX here is the only person who really can report some success with the list. Also I think he's the person who developed further to what it looks like today.

//EDIT:
I found the posting that started the discussion back then: Nostalgia (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=527486&viewfull=1#post527486)
Damn, there it is.
My 1st report (http://ligamagic.com.br/?view=forum/mensagem&id=81072) with a moxtigator buil was 4 months after that.

Ok, then maybe I can create a sweet Fury of the Goblins (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=121181) list and win a tournament with it. That'd be fun.

ps: gave a look at the beggining of the thread again. TONS of good stuff. Might re-read it when I have time.

[Ace/Homebrew]

When Krenko, Mob Boss was our new toy I put together 75 based on ScatmanX's Moxtigator list. I top 8'd locally by using 3 Krenko and 7 haste lords (favoring Chieftain over Warchief in the split). I have used the Chrome Mox / Warren Instigator style deck a few times. It has it's merits but I wouldn't recommend using more than 2 Moxen.

[Hof]

The problem for me with an approach like that has always been that getting Mox + imprint card + color land + Instigator + something awesome to cheat in next turn is not as easy as it sounds.

I have been considering some number of Simian Spirit Guide in the SB as a means to accelerate both Chalice of the Void and Instigator against fast decks.

[feline]

Sunday I'm going to play at my weekly Legacy, should be about 4 rounds, and I'm bringing Rw Goblins (as per usual) :) and hoping I won't scrub out like last time -_-

I'm expecting A LOT of control (I have yet to lose vs Miracles in a sanctioned tourney) and maybe some combo.

I won't change my SB, but I want to add an extra RiP because of dredge and what-not.

We'll see once I'm there. :)

My weekly Legacy is on Sunday's too, last time I went I played goblins, went 3 wins 1 losses, which was to affinity which is just so fast.

[Bichon_Blitz]

My weekly Legacy is on Sunday's too, last time I went I played goblins, went 3 wins 1 losses, which was to affinity which is just so fast.

Affinity is where 'kinesis and sharpshooter shine. Once 'kinesis wipes their board, they are topdecking and that's not what they want to do. You really want to hold your tuktuk scrapper/tinstreet for cranial plating. I don't like playing against that deck though, especially etched champion versions.

[ScatmanX]

Affinity is where 'kinesis and sharpshooter shine. Once 'kinesis wipes their board, they are topdecking and that's not what they want to do. You really want to hold your tuktuk scrapper/tinstreet for cranial plating. I don't like playing against that deck though, especially etched champion versions.
True.
Also, Needle is very good in this matchup, shutting down 2 of their most problematic cards - Plating and Tezz - while they have no way of removing it.
Chalice and MB. Trap also have it's merits depending on the version they run.

Anybody playing Needle on the SB nowadays? Seems like a quite good card. Works against Miracles (Elm/Top), Sneak Show (Sneak Attack/Grisle), Tide (Candelabra), Elves (the insect), Affinity, Belcher (duh), Stoneforge decks, TinFins, and lots of other less commom decks.

[Dick_Tator]

True.
Also, Needle is very good in this matchup, shutting down 2 of their most problematic cards - Plating and Tezz - while they have no way of removing it.
Chalice and MB. Trap also have it's merits depending on the version they run.

Anybody playing Needle on the SB nowadays? Seems like a quite good card. Works against Miracles (Elm/Top), Sneak Show (Sneak Attack/Grisle), Tide (Candelabra), Elves (the insect), Affinity, Belcher (duh), Stoneforge decks, TinFins, and lots of other less commom decks.

This. ^^

Needle seems very strong at the moment.

While we're on the subject of sideboarding, what do you guys pack against Storm? My local meta is heavily infested with ANT at the moment, and I'm curious as to what other people would board in against them. I currently run either Pyrostatic Pillars or Mindbreak Trap in my sideboard, but there might be a better option that I have overlooked.

[Arsenal]

Chalice of the Void is always a candidate too. Honestly though, I don't board for combo, but rather just have my board augment my 50/50 matchups to give me the edge. I just take combo as an auto loss most games.

[Dick_Tator]

Chalice of the Void is always a candidate too. Honestly though, I don't board for combo, but rather just have my board augment my 50/50 matchups to give me the edge. I just take combo as an auto loss most games.

That makes sense. Which mathups do you consider worth boarding for?

[Mr. Froggy]

I've been having so much difficulty online with Gobbos :O

I'm not going to give up though! I love my Gobbos :)

[markbris]

I've been having so much difficulty online with Gobbos :O

I'm not going to give up though! I love my Gobbos :)


I have it on mtgo as well and tried for about a month and just did terribly. I've pretty much moved on to the rock for the moment. Honestly I think the metagame is about as bad as its been for goblins in a long time. Locals might be ok but anything like the SCG metagame or MTGO is pretty tough on em.

[jrw1985]

I have it on mtgo as well and tried for about a month and just did terribly. I've pretty much moved on to the rock for the moment. Honestly I think the metagame is about as bad as its been for goblins in a long time. Locals might be ok but anything like the SCG metagame or MTGO is pretty tough on em.

Pray tell?

[ScatmanX]

While we're on the subject of sideboarding, what do you guys pack against Storm? My local meta is heavily infested with ANT at the moment, and I'm curious as to what other people would board in against them. I currently run either Pyrostatic Pillars or Mindbreak Trap in my sideboard, but there might be a better option that I have overlooked.
Depends on how many cards you have in your SB for it.
Right now, on my list, I run 2x Mindbreak Trap, 2x Chalice of the Void, 2x ReB, 1x Thorn of Amethyst, 2 Chrome Mox, all that I'd bring in against AnT.

[Bichon_Blitz]

Chalice has worked really well for me against combo. I don't know why you would just chalk up storm/combo as a loss, those decks are some of the cheapest to build and I'd be shocked to go to any tourney and not find some. I would aggressively mull to chalice. The local I won I kept an opener match 2 of chalice, 5 goblin cards not named lackey, and a fetch. I figured I'd have a better chance of drawing another land than mulling to land, land, chalice so I kept it. Top decked another land and proceeded to win. Not so sure about MB trap with them running probe/therapy, I wouldn't feel safe.

And needle definitely deserves a spot. Everything you want in a sideboard card, versatility, direct hate, and cheapness. I gotta get out of sales...

[Fuwatanity]

Just a random idea I had: Nether Void in Goblins.
I don't think it's that efficient and too slow. But our goblins can enter play via Vial, Caverns or Lackey/Instigator triggers, Gempalm cycles, and if play on the right turn can lock out the enemy completly. If you want you could play Vexing Shusher in addition, but I think that wouldn't be a good choice.

Edit: + If you play the blacksplash you can play all those black sideboard cards, Perish, Cabal Therapy, ...

[Eleven]

For the ones that are interested, Max Tietze is on camera on SCG Legacy Open series against Elves, have a look at the streaming! http://www.scglive.com/

[Mr. Froggy]

Played in my local legacy tourney... Went 1-3... -_-

The meta at my LGS I not made for Gobbos.. At all...

[Fuwatanity]

For the ones that are interested, Max Tietze is on camera on SCG Legacy Open series against Elves, have a look at the streaming! http://www.scglive.com/

but the elves player is so bad :D

[LeoCop 90]

Quick Tournament report. Quite big event with 40 people. This was my list:

-4 lackey
-4 matron
-4 ringleader
-4 vial

-3 piledriver
-3 mogg war marshal
-3 gempalm
-3 warchief

-2 chieftain
-2 tarfire

-1 stingscourger
-1 sharpshooter
-1 prospector
-1 tin street hooligan
-1 siege-gang
-1 krenko

Lands(22):
-4 cavern of souls
-4 wasteland
-3 ports
-6 fetches
-3 mountain
-2 taiga

Sideboard:
-4 relic of progenitus
-2 mindbreak trap
-2 chalice of the void
-1 thorn of ametyst
-2 pyrokinesis
-3 krosan grip
-1 boartusk liege

Round 1 (UW Miracle Helm) 2-1

Round 2 (UW Miracle Helm) 1-0. The second game he was in control but time was ending and he only managed to find jace as win condition so i just kept cards in my hand to avoid losing to the planeswalker ultimate. Remember: jace's ultimate mills your entire deck but then makes you shuffle your hand into your deck, so it is an option to consider in some corner cases to keep cards in hand(if you can't do anything better). Feels bad to win games this way but it's your opponent's fault if he doesn't have efficient win conditions.

Round 3 (Belcher) 0-2. I also have a belcher deck and considered to bring this at the tournament but to me it is a very scary deck to play... oftentimes i get screwed with no win conditions in hand and mulligan to oblivion. Aniway my opponent has better luck and makes 14/16 tokens in both games turn one while i mull to 4 and don't see any hate card.

Round 4 (Canadian) 1-2. I win the first game. The second one he plays some mongosees/delvers and hits me to a low life total, then i manage to play krenko and do a massive horde of goblins that would kill him the following turn. He brainstorms and finds Rough/Tumble...I lose.The third game he has two mongosees 1 tarmo 1 delver, i have a very good and fast hand with vial cavern haste lords and mogg war marshal, but i don't find any source of card advantage and can't overwhelm his fatties.

Round 5 (4 colour zoo) 2-1. This is a rogue deck that i faced also other times in my local metagames (also posted about this in my first tournament report), and i found that the best way to beat it is (maybe obviously) land denial.In fact i win the first and third game mostly on the edge of wastes/ports and killing his deathrites. I also killed his confidants anytime i could because it's very important for us to win the battle of card advantage, especially against a deck that has a superior average card quality than us (bigger and cheaper creatures/removal spells)

Round 6 ( Goblin mirror !) 1-1 . game 1 i draw pretty much all my removal spells and kills every thing he plays while beating with a prospector. he tries to manascrew me and I'm left with one land but two vials (although played in mid-late game) win me the game.
game 2 i trigger with lackey while he does nothing , i get two warchief in play, play a matron, in response he kills both warchief with pyrokinesis. Being my board position destroyed i fetch a ringleader(otherwise i would have gone for a fast win) that finds me piledriver and chieftain. he matrons for tarfire and kills chieftain, i keep beating with ringleader and piledriver for 3 turns and get him to one life point while i draw three lands(
drawing anything else i would have won because he is manascrewed)and his vial ticks up. In the end he recovers and kills me with siege gang /prospector and the goblin king he had in side while I'm very annoyed because i keep drawing useless cards when i just need a tarfire(or matron into tarfire, or ringleader into matron into tarfire) to win. Time is ending and the draw is useless for both of us, while winning there is a chance of getting into top8 so i politely concede the game to my opponent(after all he is playing goblins too), but this is useless because he goes out due to rating. Turns out that my rating was higher and i would have made top 8 winning... shit!

Final result : 3-2-1

[feline]

Max Tietze Top 8 goblins quarter finals!

[Bichon_Blitz]

but the elves player is so bad :D

That elves player wasn't good to say the least. I loved how he looked at every goblin card to see what it read.

[feline]

Max w/ Goblins in the finals, up from game 1, Punishing Fire can't stop a swarm of goblins!

[Tao]

lol I just tuned in and at the end of G2 they both punted and counterpunted like I have never seen... wtf were they doing???

[Countertoplol]

lol I just tuned in and at the end of G2 they both punted and counterpunted like I have never seen... wtf were they doing???


They're probably exhausted.

[feline]

That was alot of back and forth'ing game 2.

1 game to go.

-edit- And it's a win for Goblins!

[superspaceshooter]

Most of the opponents played fairly loose (part of it can surely be blamed on exhaustion, but still!) I still don't like 4 Goblin Piledrivers, and he was fortunate not to draw many of them against Jund, though he likely sided some out for Pyrokensis.

[nudon]

They're probably exhausted.

Agreed, it's not easy to play several hours of mtg without making a mistake. Pearson was far worse though.

[Fuwatanity]

edit: nvm

[Amon Amarth]

Most of the opponents played fairly loose (part of it can surely be blamed on exhaustion, but still!) I still don't like 4 Goblin Piledrivers, and he was fortunate not to draw many of them against Jund, though he likely sided some out for Pyrokensis.

For an accomplished person like Max, I imagine it was pretty easy to sub out the 3 Piledrivers for 3 Pyrokinesis.

[GoboLord]

Some quotes made me wonder:

[...] Goblin Piledrivers, and he was fortunate not to draw many of them against Jund, though he likely sided some out for Pyrokensis.

For an accomplished person like Max, I imagine it was pretty easy to sub out the 3 Piledrivers for 3 Pyrokinesis.

:really:
What do people think about the value of Piledrivers and Pyrokinesis in the Jund MU? In my view Piledriver is quite good there, since they don't have too many blockers (Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elves...makes 16 in total assuming they run a playset of each card). The small number of creatures, along with their discardspells makes Pyrokinesis a quite un-attractive SB choice against Jund. So, even if I had Pyrokinesis in my SB I wouldn't bring them in for this MU.

What are others thinking about this?

-------
/EDIT: I almost forgot it: (in case Max Tietzke is reading this) Congratulations on the good finish. Playing tight isn't as important for Vial Goblins as it is for other decks, so don't worry if you made a few slips.

[raindrainxi]

Some quotes made me wonder:

:really:
What do people think about the value of Piledrivers and Pyrokinesis in the Jund MU? In my view Piledriver is quite good there, since they don't have too many blockers (Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elves...makes 16 in total assuming they run a playset of each card). The small number of creatures, along with their discardspells makes Pyrokinesis a quite un-attractive SB choice against Jund. So, even if I had Pyrokinesis in my SB I wouldn't bring them in for this MU.

What are others thinking about this?


I agree with this. Jund's arguable top creatures (Bloodbraid Elf and Dark Confidant) is card advantage personified, and Pyrokinesis is innately card disadvantage. MWM is still the best 2cc here, but I still wouldn't side in Pyrokinesis replacing PD. I am a bit biased for Piledriver, I dropped them to 2 but rarely side them out.

[Hof]

I would sideboard out Piledriver against any deck that has blockers and lots of spot removal. I would most definately sidebord them out against Jund, because Jund has blockers, spot removal, and discard, and Piledriver is destined to be a red Squire most of the time in that setup. Despite my dislike of the card, Mogg War Marshall is obviously very strong here, against Liliana and all that. Luckily for that Goblin player, the Jund players forgot to bring their Engineered Plague this time. In fact, the 2nd place Jund deck have next to nothing against Goblins in the side. Maybe he will remember next time.

I agree that Pyrokineses seems bad against Hymn.
With perfect knowledge of my opponents deck in that particular matchup, I would probably side -4 Piledriver, -1 Hooligan, +3 Thalia, +2 Relic.

[Avatara]

With perfect knowledge of my opponents deck in that particular matchup, I would probably side -4 Piledriver, -1 Hooligan, +3 Thalia, +2 Relic.Thalia doesn't really help against Punishing Fire.. It's obvious that relic, pyrokinesis, swarming (MWM + SGC) and mana denial made Tietze win those match-up. Yes he had perfect knowledge! On a side note the Jund decks didn't run Engineered Plague, which would have made those games a lot harder.

[jrw1985]

Congratulations to Max Tietze for winning the whole enchilada! I stayed up to watch the stream and thought he played very well. I really liked how he sandbagged his Pyros to blow up Goyfs and just ignored DRS for the most part.

Goblins

Max Tietze

1st Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 4/7/2013

Creatures (33)
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Lands (23)
3 Mountain
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Spells (4)
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Angel of Despair
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Questions for Max :

Were the 4 Ports good?

Why Relic over Rest in Peace?

Why Angel of Despair and not KGrip #3?

[ScatmanX]

What are others thinking about this?
I don't really like any of those against Jund, but I'll usually keep 1-2 Piledrivers against them.

Congratz to Tietze.

[Sasan]

Great finish Max.

Anyone know how he boarded versus Jund? He boarded Relics and Kinesis in but what did he take out? Obviously 3 Piledrivers on the play and 3 Lackeys on the draw. I also think that he boarded TSH out but what else?

His main deck is exactly the same as his winner deck from last year except one Plateau for one basic mountain.

Classic Control Goblins rock :)

[ScatmanX]

How did Tietze's Kinesis killed the Goyf G3 of the finals?
Goyf was 1/2 (land). Lackey attacks. Goyf blocks. Kinesis kills Shaman and deals 2 to Goyf. Goyf rises to a 3/4 (land, instant, creature). Lackey deals 1 dmg to Goyf (3 dmg total).
If Lackey deals the dmg 1st, then it would be on the grave before Kinesis resolves, right?
Can someone enlighten me?

[alphastryk]

How did Tietze's Kinesis killed the Goyf G3 of the finals?
Goyf was 1/2 (land). Lackey attacks. Goyf blocks. Kinesis kills Shaman and deals 2 to Goyf. Goyf rises to a 3/4 (land, instant, creature). Lackey deals 1 dmg to Goyf (3 dmg total).
If Lackey deals the dmg 1st, then it would be on the grave before Kinesis resolves, right?
Can someone enlighten me?

You're right, it should not have killed the goyf, as it was too big.

[jrw1985]

How did Tietze's Kinesis killed the Goyf G3 of the finals?
Goyf was 1/2 (land). Lackey attacks. Goyf blocks. Kinesis kills Shaman and deals 2 to Goyf. Goyf rises to a 3/4 (land, instant, creature). Lackey deals 1 dmg to Goyf (3 dmg total).
If Lackey deals the dmg 1st, then it would be on the grave before Kinesis resolves, right?
Can someone enlighten me?

I don't recall DRS dying. Just Goyf died I thought.

[ScatmanX]

I don't recall DRS dying. Just Goyf died I thought.
http://pt-br.twitch.tv/scglive/b/387913773
10:31:00
Both die.

[GoboLord]

Agreed, it's not easy to play several hours of mtg without making a mistake. Pearson was far worse though.
...apparently not worse than the judges :-D

[B-rad]

First off congrats to Max. But for all you newer Goblins players those two matchups vs Jund are not at all how the matchup plays out. It is actually quite miserable if the Jund player has even the smallest bit of competence. I think you board out 4 Piledrivers 1 TSH and 1 Lackey for the Pyrokinesis and Relics.

[Fuwatanity]

my theory is, this was staged by SCG to push goblin cards in price ...

[Lorenzo767]

How did Tietze's Kinesis killed the Goyf G3 of the finals?
Goyf was 1/2 (land). Lackey attacks. Goyf blocks. Kinesis kills Shaman and deals 2 to Goyf. Goyf rises to a 3/4 (land, instant, creature). Lackey deals 1 dmg to Goyf (3 dmg total).
If Lackey deals the dmg 1st, then it would be on the grave before Kinesis resolves, right?
Can someone enlighten me?

He simply played the Pyrokenis before combat damage, so when Goyf received the third damage from lackey there weren't creature in graveyards!

[Annatar]

Seeing Goblins take a SCG Open after what seems like an eternity really makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

I do note that he doesn't run Krenko at all, instead opting to for the old school two Siege-Gang Commander approach. Is this something unique to his list or have others left the mobb boss in the gutters as well?

[ScatmanX]

He simply played the Pyrokenis before combat damage, so when Goyf received the third damage from lackey there weren't creature in graveyards!
Then the Shaman kinesis killed was in the yard before Lackey delt dmg to Goyf.
Guess everybody was pretty tired by the end of the tournament. Those things happen.

[Lorenzo767]

Then the Shaman kinesis killed was in the yard before Lackey delt dmg to Goyf.
Guess everybody was pretty tired by the end of the tournament. Those things happen.

Ooops! You're right!
So i don't know but it's not an irrelevant mistake i think! Probably the Shaman would't have won the match, but surely change how it played.
However it's not the first time that nobody saw mistake like this during SCG's tournament.

The list it's always the same, a really solid one!
The only changes with the past lists are the Thalia in SB i think.

[GoboLord]

I do note that he doesn't run Krenko at all, instead opting to for the old school two Siege-Gang Commander approach. Is this something unique to his list or have others left the mobb boss in the gutters as well?

Me. I find Krenko too slow and I think that if we are landing a fattie it should have an immediate board-impact. The two most important situations where "fatties" are wanted are (1) when Lackey connects and (2) we need some sort of come-back. SGC does way more than Krenko in both situations. However, I think running a 1-1 split or even 1 Krenko, 1 SGCs is still a legit move. Krenko isn't a bad card after all.

[nudon]

...apparently not worse than the judges :-D

Guess it's not easy to watch several hours of mtg without missing something too haha. I wonder if Pearson would have been able to make the extra goyf count though considering it seemed like he had nothing left stamina-wise.

[ScatmanX]

I do note that he doesn't run Krenko at all, instead opting to for the old school two Siege-Gang Commander approach. Is this something unique to his list or have others left the mobb boss in the gutters as well?
As a matter of fact, me too for the last months. 2-1 split SGC-Kiki in an Instigator list. Imo Krenko is too slow nowadays, and is not worth it, at least around where I play.

[Sasan]

I never played with Krenko. He is a win-more guy. If Krenko gets removed you are left with nothing. The commander leaves you at least 3 token.

[Mark Sun]

I never played with Krenko. He is a win-more guy. If Krenko gets removed you are left with nothing. The commander leaves you at least 3 token.

I think he's pretty good from the impact he can have if left untouched. He's not a tutor target, he's a 3-of. I also played Goblins at the Invitational, but Mono Red, finishing 3-1 in Legacy on Day 1 and 2-2 on Day 2. Matchups w/ comments:

Day 1:

Shardless BUG, 2-1: Krenko'ed him out in g1 from a board state of something like 3 dorks + Krenko vs double Goyf + Shardless Agent. His Decays do nothing there. He had a nut Hymn in g2, and in g3 I got to Blood Moon him.
Team Italia, 0-2: Mull to 5, mull to 6, should be a favorable MU. Opponent kept in Lilianas against my Mogg War Marshal deck like a master.
Sneak and Show, 2-0: My opponent probably put me on RUG since that's all I play, and keeps double FoW double Spell Pierce in g1. I just kill him with Cavern. g2 He plays a second land gets ready to lay down some cards from his hand, I presumed they were Lotus Petals and they were, so my t2 Thorn of Amethyst was a good one. By the time he got Show and Tell online, I just laid a Matron in, tutored for my only Incinerator, and killed Griselbrand.
RUG: 2-1: Seems like a coin flip matchup. Do you have a Delver or no?


Day 2:

Elves (Caleb D), 0-2: Match isn't getting any easier. Mull to Aether Vial, Tarfire, 2 lands, business in g2, obviously peel Lackey a turn too late. Heh.
RUG, 1-2: I had to mull to 5 in g3, and unfortunately never saw a red land. Otherwise, g2 Krenko allowed me to come back from 2 life, making enough tokens to kill him through multiple Goyfs + Mongeese.
Esperblade (Dave Shiels), 1-2: We both laughed because he had the god hand in g1 and I couldn't catch up in time without a Vial... felt fairly violated. Blood Moon came in for g2/g3 and basically got there on the back of it, although g3 if he had draw a single removal spell for Siege-Gang it would have easily gone the other way. Really wanted a second Scrapper in the board for this matchup.
Sneak and Show, 2-1: t2 Emrakul g1. Game 2 was probably the most interesting, my opponent threw away Force of Will exiling Spell Pierce with U open in two consecutive turns on my Thorn effects, and my mind was basically blown. I easily got to SnT a Matron to get Stingscourger, no Cavern needed.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Those things happen.

Link (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_max_tietze_vs_william_p.html)


William had to mulligan once more, while Max kept his hand. Max led with Goblin Lackey, while William had Deathrite Shaman to stymie the early pressure. Max’s turn two consisted of AEther Vial and no further plays. William’s was Wasteland on Cavern followed by 1/2 Tarmogoyf. Max attacked with Goblin Lackey, and Deathrite stood in front of it. Pyrokinesis removing Mogg War Marshal cleared the board in concert with the damage from Lackey (save for Vial) and Max passed.

So the blocker was actually DRS, not the Goyf. As far as I can tell:
Attacks - Lackey swings
Blocks - DRS on Lackey
Before damage, Pyrokinesis removing MWM. 3 damage to Goyf (lethal after the Instant hits the yard upping Goyf to 2/3) and 1 damage to DRS.
Damage - Lackey deals 1 to DRS which is now lethal.

Congrats Max!

[ScatmanX]

Link (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_max_tietze_vs_william_p.html)

So the blocker was actually DRS, not the Goyf. As far as I can tell:
Attacks - Lackey swings
Blocks - DRS on Lackey
Before damage, Pyrokinesis removing MWM. 3 damage to Goyf (lethal after the Instant hits the yard upping Goyf to 2/3) and 1 damage to DRS.
Damage - Lackey deals 1 to DRS which is now lethal.

Congrats Max!
That would work, but how was Deathrite untapped if Willian's 2nd turn was Wasteland on Cavern + Tarmogoyf? They wrote it wrong. The video shows that.

@Mark Sun: Thanks for the sum up. Why do you think Blood Moon is worth running today? Against some 3 color decks it is good sometimes, but imo if you don't overload in removal, Deathrite + basics can deny it.
Also, why bring in against Esper? They usually run 3-4 basics, and bring in disenchant.How many do you play?
thaks.

[Bichon_Blitz]

Congrats to Max for reppin' goblins. Especially beating two Jund decks in a row. Them not running e plague seems borderline cocky in my opinion.

On Krenko: Everytime I read people dissing Krunko, I have to shake my head. He's not just a "win more". He wins you games that you have no business winning. Against any BGx deck, once he hits, he propels your deck from 50/50 match odds (or less) to 75/25. If he has haste, you're prob gonna win next turn if you don't this turn. He breaks games wide open when your board state is meh. I don't think you need him (obviously) but I've just had so much success with him I feel obliged to respond here. I've tutored for him in mid-late games to improve my board state. When ringleader flips him, I'm rarely disappointed.

[Lt. Quattro]

Was goblin piledriver amazing for max on Sunday? From what I saw on camera, the most a piledriver would ever do is trade with a creature while mogg war marshal was putting in some work.

[Annatar]

Was goblin piledriver amazing for max on Sunday? From what I saw on camera, the most a piledriver would ever do is trade with a creature while mogg war marshal was putting in some work.

I think he played four of those because he was expecting A LOT of combo decks (just look at the sideboard). Against those decks, Goblin Piledriver is the best creature you could possibly play on turn two before sideboarding.

[Sasan]

I wonder why Max did not play any chieftain or boartusk liege in the sb. He cannot rely that Jund does not play Engineered Plague from the sideboard. He could have easily lost the matches versus Jund if a Plague came online. Or am I missing something?

[ScatmanX]

Was goblin piledriver amazing for max on Sunday? From what I saw on camera, the most a piledriver would ever do is trade with a creature while mogg war marshal was putting in some work.
Well, half of the time that is what it actually do: trade with a big guy. Some people even consider him as a delayed removal spell., with the upside of sometimes actually killing your opponent. That's not a bad thing. Using him to get rid of a big Goyf, while your MWM and tokens get to the dome repeatedly works great (as you can see on the videos).

[goblinsplayer]

What kind of list should i play for a meta with alot of blade and combo decks like show and tell and storm. There is also a good amount of rug too. Could anybody give me a good sideboard?

[jrw1985]

What kind of list should i play for a meta with alot of blade and combo decks like show and tell and storm. There is also a good amount of rug too. Could anybody give me a good sideboard?

4 Lackey
4 Vial
3 MWM
3 Thalia
1 Stingscourger
3 Gemapalm
2 Tarfire
2 Piledriver
1 Tin-street hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Matron
4 Warchief
4 Ringleader
1 Krenko
1 SGC

4 Wasteland
4 Cavern
1 karakas
3 Mountain
6 Fetch
2 Taiga
2 Plateau

4 Rest in Peace
3 Pyrokinesis
3 REB
2 Pithing Needle
3 KGrip

[Mark Sun]

@Mark Sun: Thanks for the sum up. Why do you think Blood Moon is worth running today? Against some 3 color decks it is good sometimes, but imo if you don't overload in removal, Deathrite + basics can deny it.
Also, why bring in against Esper? They usually run 3-4 basics, and bring in disenchant.How many do you play?
thaks.

Admittedly I was new to the archetype (as in, played it when I first started in 2009 for a couple of weeks and never again), but I felt it was a good plan against the Deathrite decks + the left field perspective.

Blood Moon punishes the Deathrite decks because without DRS they're sitting ducks to this type of hate. Against Esper, it doesn't sound wonderful but they play 3-4 basics and they can't afford to fully fetch them out early because they need mana for discard, StP, Jace, etc, and you can punish them for that. Also, most have only a single basic plains so you can 1) buy yourself time or 2) completely shut out the possibility of a card like Supreme Verdict post-board. If they are bringing in Disenchant to fight you, sometimes it'll be completely dead, sometimes they have to make the decision of a preemptive Disenchant on a Vial as well.

The 3 Tarfire maindeck also makes the Moon plan more of a possibility, as it answers DRS, SFM, and so forth. This is the list I played, for reference: http://pastebin.com/R2DcRpM6

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I partly agree with your philosophy of building up pressure. Or as Avatara expressed it a few days ago:
What Avatara said hits the nail right on the head.
Playing Goblins is not only about "being aggressive" or "being explosive". The cards you play need to be good vs your opponents deck/strategy. i.e. It's a little more complicated than saying "card A is better than card B - always". You have to take into account which decks you will likely face and then work out the best strategy against them and picking up the cards that support your strategy best. That's why Mogg War Marshal is probably too slow, or too 'bad' vs. Esperblade, but he is one of THE BEST cards vs. RUG Thresh. Sometimes you are better off with cards that are slightly less aggressive/explosive (as funny as that may sound, talking about a 3-in-1 creaturecard) - as long as they hinder your opponents gameplan (e.g. when an essential lan of an opponent's deck is to 1-for-1 you all day long, you are better off with a MWM than with Winsiogator).

I'm not saying that either WInstogator or MWM are bad or awsome. I'm just picking up this example to show that things arn't that simple. My conclusion would be that we are better off with thinking of the deck in terms of Avatara's suggestions (force them to interact) tnan with just perceiving it as being as explosive as possible (although that is an important element of course).
Sorry for the late answer, I only occasionally look up the source these days.

I mostly agree with you. But I think Instigator is still better in many circumstances, even against RUG thresh. By saying "being explosive" I do not only mean "being aggressive", I also mean fuel the goblin engine. And the Instigator is really good at it.

Preparing for rotten tomatoes to be thrown:
I actually think MWM is a generally weak card. The only circumstance it's valid is when you really need a chump block vs a non flying creature after turn 2, like in tight damage races. Other then that it either slows you down turn 3 or it's just 2 mundane 1/1 goblins for 2cc that cannot even attack turn 3. Looking at some popular creatures like Deathrite Shaman, those 1/1 goblins start to look really sad. It only remotely helps goblins by +1 your goblin count. The opponent's deck trying to trade 1v1 is not a valid argument here imho because he will simply save that bolt for more valuable targets like warchief.

Instigator on the other hand puts a creature on the table that needs to be answered. If you have even one card in your hand your opponent won't gamble for ringleader or matron (since they are mostly not played early). Instigator connecting did win me the game more often then not. He will either use spot removal (2cc vs 1cc is not too bad, we risk worse trades in tempo by playing warchief) or use a creature to block. I think the last sentence is the best reason to include a card in an aggro deck and it is what I meant when saying "getting your opponent to react".
When you test the Instigator his strength won't be that apparent because most opponents will use their resources to handle him, he mostly won't connect. But I made the experience that this results in him having less resources to handle other goblins. One way to show it is to play a test game with a buddy, "save" the game at a stage where you play either MWM or instigator (redraw all cards in the same order etc. just switch the two) and see the difference in the outcome.

So I'm trying to say Instigator is imho better against almost all strategies :)

[Avatara]

So I'm trying to say Instigator is imho better against almost all strategies :)Did you study the results from recent tournaments before you came to that conclusion?

[magicmerl]

Congratulations to Max Tietze for winning the whole enchilada! I stayed up to watch the stream and thought he played very well. I really liked how he sandbagged his Pyros to blow up Goyfs and just ignored DRS for the most part.

Goblins

Max Tietze

1st Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 4/7/2013

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Aether Vial

3 Mountain
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Angel of Despair
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Questions for Max :

Were the 4 Ports good?

Why Relic over Rest in Peace?

Why Angel of Despair and not KGrip #3?
I love this list. It seems to touch on some of the things that Gobolord's analysis of winning lists had quite nicely.

I love the SB a little less though, and have the same questions.

p.s. What do the people running Lightning Bolt, Tarfire and Dismember think of this?

[L10]

Jim Davis and Max Tietze has been running essentially the same main deck since 2010, and Jim Davis is the one who taught Max Tietze everything about goblins.
Steve Sadin Deck Tech (2010/09/01): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekylBN29TQ0
Jim Davis's Deck (2010/11/07): http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=118&iddeck=390
Max Tietze's Deck (2011/02/27): http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=5685&iddeck=41133

The only difference is the inclusion of Cavern of Souls, and Stingscourger in place of Goblin Chieftain due to the S&T MU. Stingscourger use to be a 1-off SB card before S&T decks popularized. This is probably the most consistent goblins list, with the only significant change is the SB depending on the meta. This is probably the best list that optimizes the old school mana-denial field-control strategy, without the over reliance on removals. I still think goblins can evolve further into other successful archetypes though, but this is probably the list you still want to use the 4 Ports.

Regarding Rest in Peace, they probably don't want to rely on getting a pure white source at a timely manner with only 1 Plateau and 6 Fetch Lands. Relic of Progenitus makes mulligan easier because of that (you don't need a two card combo). And if the 1 Plateu gets eaten by Wasteland, Rest in Peace is now a dead card. I am not entirely sure why they only have two Krosan Grips but it probably has to do with their mana base. Again, only having 1 Taiga makes it more vulnerable to Wasteland, and only having 1 Taiga and 6 Fetch Lands makes the green source hard to find. However, unlike Rest in Peace, the need for Krosan Grip is less urgent. Krosan Grip is too powerful a card against MUs that demands it, but it is not a card they want to rely on due to the mana base, so two is probably the correct number.

I actually wonder how well this deck would do if I take out 1 Stingscourger and 1 Sharpshooter for 1 Chieftain and 1 Krenko. Too bad graduate school is priority ...

[Dice_Box]

I actually wonder how well this deck would do if I take out 1 Stingscourger and 1 Sharpshooter for 1 Chieftain and 1 Krenko. Too bad graduate school is priority ...
I would drop a Siege-Gang Commander for a Krenko before dropping Sharpshooter. I think the ability to tutor the gun if you have Krenko and a sac target is great, also I just love that card.

[Hof]

Preparing for rotten tomatoes to be thrown:
I actually think MWM is a generally weak card. The only circumstance it's valid is when you really need a chump block vs a non flying creature after turn 2, like in tight damage races. Other then that it either slows you down turn 3 or it's just 2 mundane 1/1 goblins for 2cc that cannot even attack turn 3. Looking at some popular creatures like Deathrite Shaman, those 1/1 goblins start to look really sad. It only remotely helps goblins by +1 your goblin count. The opponent's deck trying to trade 1v1 is not a valid argument here imho because he will simply save that bolt for more valuable targets like warchief.

Instigator on the other hand puts a creature on the table that needs to be answered. If you have even one card in your hand your opponent won't gamble for ringleader or matron (since they are mostly not played early). Instigator connecting did win me the game more often then not. He will either use spot removal (2cc vs 1cc is not too bad, we risk worse trades in tempo by playing warchief) or use a creature to block. I think the last sentence is the best reason to include a card in an aggro deck and it is what I meant when saying "getting your opponent to react".

I agree with this analysis. Only thing missing in that comparison is the increased mana cost of Instigator (double red) which actually doesn't fit very well in most Goblins decks mana bases of 14-15 red sources.

On that note, I have been having some serious doubts about Wasteland lately (even more rotten tomatoes, I guess). I have played a lot of Thresh where Wasteland is used routinely on turn two, and that deck can play with 1-2 lands in play. Goblins can't do that at all, it needs to build up. Which means that Wasteland is only useful efter turn three or four, or if the opponent is mana screwed to begin with. The risk of losing tempo yourself by using a Wasteland 'blindly' in the first turns is very high.
I am going to try a zero Wasteland build soon: 14 mountain, 4 cavern, 3 R. port, 3 Instigator, just to see how much I miss Wasteland.
I also play Kiki-Kiji/Settler maindeck, which means I can punish decks that don't deal with Instigator.

[LeoCop 90]

I realized that the new goblin from gatecrash Legion Loyalist would be very good alongside Goblin Pyromancer.
If anyone is testing with loyalist he might include 1 or more pyromancers in his list... there is also the possibility of trying a new build with 4 loyalists 4 piledrivers and 2-3 pyromancers, including also skirk prospector because you can sacrifice pyromancer to avoid your goblins being destroyed at the end of turn. Of course it would be difficult to find room for all this cards...

[liamb]

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10539&iddeck=76888

Note 3 Restoration Angel :laugh:

[ScatmanX]

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10539&iddeck=76888

Note 3 Restoration Angel :laugh:
Loved the deck name.
I'd actually play with something like this....

[jrw1985]

4 Lackey
4 Vial
3 MWM
3 Thalia
1 Stingscourger
3 Gemapalm
2 Tarfire
2 Piledriver
1 Tin-street hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Matron
4 Warchief
4 Ringleader
1 Krenko
1 SGC

4 Wasteland
4 Cavern
1 karakas
3 Mountain
6 Fetch
2 Taiga
2 Plateau

4 Rest in Peace
3 Pyrokinesis
3 REB
2 Pithing Needle
3 KGrip

I thought I should give some reasoning for this build. Thalia gives you some MD hate against combo and she can steal games. MWM allows you to stall on the ground. Tarfire gives you a proactive way to shirt down sfm, drs, and delver. Karakas gives you random outs. Krenko helps you win games you otherwise shouldn't.

SB - RiP is a bomb. There are 9 white sources. You should be able to play it. I think it's better than relic because it just turns the gy Off
Pyro is obviously good against any deck that just wants to turn guys sideways, of which there are still plenty.
REB is good against Jace and bug control and Merfolk and is decent against combo.
Needle is good against blade and jace and control and some combo.
Kgrip is fantastic against blade and is playable against SnT. It also is good against control decks.

I think this sb has the field pretty well covered. Anyone disagree? See anything I'm obviously missing?

[goblinsplayer]

Could anyone give me a good sideboard for a meta with a good amount of combo, esperblade and some RUG? By combo, I mean storm, sneak and show, and dredge. more storm and sneak and show than dredge though. My build is mono red.

[magicmerl]

Could anyone give me a good sideboard for a meta with a good amount of combo, esperblade and some RUG? By combo, I mean storm, sneak and show, and dredge. more storm and sneak and show than dredge though. My build is mono red.
Here you go:

4 Graveyard Hate (Relic of Progenitus)
4 Storm/S&T/RUG hate (Chalice of the Void)
3 Show and Tell hate (Confusion in the Ranks)
3 Storm hate (Mindbreak Trap)
1 Artifact Hate (Umezawa's Jitte)

[Dice_Box]

For grave hate, why take relic over crypt?

[B-rad]

For grave hate, why take relic over crypt?

Relic removes your yard as well so it completely shrinks Goyf. Also with a turn 1 relic you can just nug a card each turn to keep Goyfs and Deathrites at bay instead of 1 single crypt activation

[Avatara]

Relic removes your yard as well so it completely shrinks Goyf. Also with a turn 1 relic you can just nug a card each turn to keep Goyfs and Deathrites at bay instead of 1 single crypt activationAnd don't forget that relic draws you a card upon activation.. which fits perfectly with the grindy plan of goblins

[jrw1985]

So is the Tietze/Davis list essentially optimized? I'm going to be playing in a big tourney this weekend and I just can't tell whether there are any really good cuts to make or tweaks. That list is just so fucking basic I can't really see anything to change.

I could cut 1 Port for 1 Karakas, maybe cut a fetch for a Taiga.

SB I would definitely replace the Angel of Despair with a third KGrip.

Is Relic really the best GY hate? Being colorless and replacing itself is obviously great. My question is, does the free card really make Relic worth being slow and expensive? Or is the slow and expensive thing less relevant than the replace itself ability?

And is 4 Port really THAT good? It seems like all the Goblins decks doing well in big tournaments these days run 4 ports.

Someone give me a run-down.

[Dice_Box]

Is Relic really the best GY hate? Being colorless and replacing itself is obviously great. My question is, does the free card really make Relic worth being slow and expensive? Or is the slow and expensive thing less relevant than the replace itself ability?

And is 4 Port really THAT good? It seems like all the Goblins decks doing well in big tournaments these days run 4 ports.

Someone give me a run-down.

On the subject of grave hate. I have liked Crypt a fair amount over time but the more lists I see run with relic the more I am feeling I might run it. The points made a strong in its favor. As for the colourless aspect, lets face it. We are playing decks with on average 12 colourless mana cards, (cavern, port and waste) yea colourless helps. If you do not like paying tho look at tomb as your hate card.

As for ports, you can force plays with them, tap out powerful lands with them and lock down someone with one. Someone drops a Maze? You have an answer. Also think about this, a mana pool will drain at the end of each step so you can force plays. You want to play something in your second main phase that you think the guy will counter? Tap his lands in your attack phase. Just put a fifth counter on Vial and you think he has a STP in his hand? Force a play and make him target something in play before you drop Kiki or Siege.

We are not as dependant on land as some other decks. We can cheat stuff into play and have a good mana curve. Think about going against Zoo and tapping their Taiga. With hope thats one less Tarmogoyf to worry about that turn.

[Sasan]

Instead of Angel of Despair the Jim Davis/Max Tietze list needs an oblivion ring. It does exactly the same as Angel and can be our third artifact/enchantment hate from the board. Remember that we can cast the Ring as reliable as Grip. ring is our catch all card and very flexible versus all kinds of decks.

I would also cut one Trap in the SB and add a liege or a chieftain. having nothing versus Plagues in the Jund matchup is really bad. And no, we do not have the space to board in grips versus jund to fight plagues. I would take the Liege as it is bolt and punishing fire and decay safe and survives a double plague.

4 Ports are a must for this control goblins list.

Relics are the way to go with this list that has not so many white sources that can reliably cast a rest in peace on turn 2. the card draw of relic is huge versus the discard nature of Jund decks.

[GoboLord]

So is the Tietze/Davis list essentially optimized? I'm going to be playing in a big tourney this weekend and I just can't tell whether there are any really good cuts to make or tweaks. That list is just so fucking basic I can't really see anything to change.

I could cut 1 Port for 1 Karakas, maybe cut a fetch for a Taiga.

SB I would definitely replace the Angel of Despair with a third KGrip.

Is Relic really the best GY hate? Being colorless and replacing itself is obviously great. My question is, does the free card really make Relic worth being slow and expensive? Or is the slow and expensive thing less relevant than the replace itself ability?

And is 4 Port really THAT good? It seems like all the Goblins decks doing well in big tournaments these days run 4 ports.

Someone give me a run-down.

I have been thinking a lot about Vial Goblins lately and my impression is that whenever I had good results with the deck, I had (with 1 exeception) at least 4 Wastelands, 3 Ports and some number MWMs. This, together with the success that other players have with similar decklists, makes me feel like we have already found one of the best configurations of Vial Goblins. However, I'm still sticking to the "there are several good spaghetti sauces"-thought, that someone suggested a while ago, meaning that we do not have a single best decklist, but several configuration that actually work well (at least one other would be the Winstigator/Chrome Mox list that ScatmanX successfully piloted so many times).

However, I can say with confidence that the following cards indeed form a powerful setup:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3-4 Rishadan Port
10-12 Mountains, Fetchies, Duals
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3-4 Goblin Piledriver
3-4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3-4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Stingscourger
1-6 Other cards

To give an answer to your questions:

Replacing 1 Port with 1 Karakas seems like a legit move. However, there are two decks running around where Karakas really shines: Reanimator and Sneak Show. Port#4 could do the job vs those decks too. You can also think of running Karakas in SB (maybe instead of Angel of Despair?).
For what I know we've dicussed the "Angel of Despair vs. Oblivion Ring vs. Confusion the Ranks" issue over and over. We came to the conclusion that Confusion is arguably the best pick. Remember when I tested Oblivion Rings for you? Stick to the red enchantment.
Relic might be the best gravehate vs. Jund and BUG, but if you have access to white (for whatever reason) I'd pick RiP, since it's stupidly strong vs. most other decks where you want GY hate against (Reanimator, Dredge, RUG Thresh, Randomgraveyardgrindingstuff). As for today's meta I would stick to Relic though.

[B-rad]

On the subject of Angel vs O ring vs Confusion I'm going to have to disagree with both of you and say Angel is the better option vs S+T. While O-ring takes care of whatever they drop in and Confusion is kind of cute at pulling a switcheroo, Angel of Despair takes care of the problem in a much cleaner way than either of those cards. I understand it has the same effect as O ring but I feel like a lot of people are vastly underrating the clock that angel puts on the opponent. I've played against S+T in SCG opens more times than I can count and every time I've showed in an angel I've won the game just by being able to kill them with a 5/5 flyer and some other men before they can rebuild, and with all the card manipulation the deck has its not that difficult for them to do.

[GoboLord]

VI. Update notes

April 12th, 2013
* major changes on the "bad cardchoices" list



On the subject of Angel vs O ring vs Confusion I'm going to have to disagree with both of you and say Angel is the better option vs S+T. While O-ring takes care of whatever they drop in and Confusion is kind of cute at pulling a switcheroo, Angel of Despair takes care of the problem in a much cleaner way than either of those cards. I understand it has the same effect as O ring but I feel like a lot of people are vastly underrating the clock that angel puts on the opponent. I've played against S+T in SCG opens more times than I can count and every time I've showed in an angel I've won the game just by being able to kill them with a 5/5 flyer and some other men before they can rebuild, and with all the card manipulation the deck has its not that difficult for them to do.

The result of this "cute switcheroo" will usually be that you have an Emrakul, Griselbrand or Omniscience on your side of the battlefield. That isn't strictly worse than having a 5/5 bold-headed Angel. That means Confusion will set up a clock most of the time - just like Bold Angel - but it's close to impossible for them to recover with Confusion of the Ranks on the battlefield. However, I agree that Angel of Despair takes care of whatever they drop, while Confusion in the Ranks demand a creature on your side, in case they drop Griselbrand or Emrakul. Oblivion Ring is worse than both cards though.

[ScatmanX]

I'm on the Confusion in the Ranks bandwagoon too, because of extensive (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=681833&viewfull=1#post681833) playtesting (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=681427&viewfull=1#post681427) and tournament play.
(also, hardcastin Confusion to get a cast Sneak Attack from your opponent, and killing him with a hasty Piledriver from your hand, is priceless)

Edit: And here we go again, back to DtB. A little more finishes from elves and they'd be in here instead of us.

[LeoCop 90]

First(horrible) goblin spoiled in dragon's maze. Hope for something better.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141278&d=1365772144

[ScatmanX]

First(horrible) goblin spoiled in dragon's maze. Hope for something better.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141278&d=1365772144
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141278&d=1365772144
The image was awesome. Too bad we can never get our hopes up...

[Arsenal]

Tietze's list looks pretty good; I see he devoted essentially 12/15 cards to the various combo matchups he'd face. Mindbreak Trap though? Is that a "gotcha!" card if the Storm player opts to combo off without protection?

[jrw1985]

Tietze's list looks pretty good; I see he devoted essentially 12/15 cards to the various combo matchups he'd face. Mindbreak Trap though? Is that a "gotcha!" card if the Storm player opts to combo off without protection?

It's a Trap!

[jrw1985]

I've been doing a bunch of playtesting against Jund today. G-damn, that MU sucks. Bloodmoon is the only good card I've found against them thus far. And even then, DRS can still keep them in the game. But they run about 0 basics so Moon can really shut them down.

[Arsenal]

It's difficult to outgrind a deck that runs 12-14 removal spells, 4 of which recur... and all of our guys are */1 and */2.

[markbris]

If they show and tell with me having a creature in play and he puts emrakul in and I put confusion in the ranks in. Do I get emrakul or do I need to play another creatire?

[jrw1985]

In my goldfishing today I've found a very strong sideboard plan against Jund:

+3 Blood Moon
+3 Pyrokinesis
+3 Relic of Progenitus

-3 Thalia
-4 Aether Vial
-2 Piledriver

The idea is pretty simple: keep as many bodies in play as possible, use Relic and Pyro to control the board, then lock them out with Blood Moon. It's been very efficient.

[Avatara]

-4 Aether VialStrange, when Max Tietze was playing on camera it seemed like Aether Vial was the single best card in that match-up.

[FoxBlade]

If they show and tell with me having a creature in play and he puts emrakul in and I put confusion in the ranks in. Do I get emrakul or do I need to play another creatire?

You need to have a creature in play. So assuming that you're playing goblins, it's pretty likely you'll have at least 1 creature in play by the time you'll see a SnT.

Basically, they play SnT, play big Em. You play CITR, then you exchange creatures if you have them. Because of CITR, they have to give up Big Em to one of your creatures if you have one in play. If they have an enchantment, they take your CITR (but who cares?).

[Sasan]

CitR and Angel are of course better than Oblivion Ring versus SNT decks. But the ring is great versus other matchups, too, as our virtual third Grip. I like not so narrow SB cards.

[magicmerl]

So I was enamored with Max Tietze's deck and wanted to play it. Specifically, I wanted to look at the following differences from my deck:
1. MWM over Thalia
2. No Karakas
3. Rishadan Port
4. 2 SGC over a Krenko split

That said, my deck wasn't exactly the same as his. This is what I sleeved up for our local 'Big Legacy' tournament:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Aether Vial

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
2 Plateau
1 Taiga

Sideboard
4 Rest in Peace
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Boartusk Liege

On to the tournament!

R1 vs LED Dredge
Game 1 he made 16 goblins on T2. I did not win.
SB: - 4 Gempalm, TSH, Stingscourger, 2 Ringleaders, + 4 RIP, 3 Pyrokinesis, 1 Boartusk Liege
Game 2 (mull to 5) he got Elesh Norn into play T4 along with some irrelevant zombies, while RIP was nowhere to be found.
Note: I retrospectively decided that Thalia should have come into this matchup as well instead of Pyrokinesis.
0-2

R2 vs countertop
Game 1 was about Lackey coming down before his T1 Top, T2 Counterbalance. From there Lackey laughs at him.
SB: - 4 Gempalm, 1 Sharpshooter, 3 MWM, + 4 CotV, 3 Thalia, 1 Boartusk Liege
Game 2 he had double Engineered Plague, followed by Swords on my Liege.
Game 3 I played some rubbishy dudes on T1 and T2, then ported him to death (while two Engineered Plagues rotted in his hand). PORTS FOR THE WIN!
2-1

R3 vs Zoo
Game 1 was Vial chaining Ringleaders for the win.
SB: - 2 Piledrivers, TSH, Prospector + 4 RIP
Game 2 was him beating me down with Nacatyls, Tarmogoyf and KotR, until Gempalm killed the Nacatyl and RIP let me stop his fatties and Sharpshooter mopped up.
2-0

R4 vs countertop
Game 1 Aether Vial let me laugh my way through his Top/Counterbalance combo which he assembled. Eventually Warchief and Ringleaders swarmed him.
SB: - 3 MWM, + 3 Thalia
Game 2 Cavern of Souls gave me Lackey, which just made a joke of what he wanted to do. He wrathed but Ringleader lets me rebuild.
2-0

R5 vs uw Top control
Game 1 he got down Top and RIP, but luckily never saw Energy Field before I swarmed him, despite a Terminus in the middle.
SB: - Sharpshooter, Stingscourger, TSH + 3 Thalia
He never got past 3 land and Aether Vial and Thalia made it hard for him to play.
Note: I had no outs to the Energy Field/RIP combo, MD or SB.
2-0

R6 - ID into top8
Went and got a Doner Kebab, quietly watched bubble matches, resting (i.e. starting top8 competition early).

Quarterfinals vs Stoneblade
Game 1 he got down a Jace and a Verdict, plus Swords/Snapcaster. but eventually I just played a bunch of dudes and they swarmed him.
SB: - 3 MWM, + 3 Thalia
Game 2 He started with T2 Stoneforge, T3 Batterskull, T4 Jitte equip, while I had Aether Vial, T3 Warchief, T4 Matron for Prospector. He got down Engineered Plague while I bounced his germ and killed his Stoneforge. My Warchief let my matrons turn into Piledrivers which swarmed him through the plague.
2-0

Semifinals vs Show and Tell
Game 1 I kept a durdly hand, but he didn't do much and eventually attacking for 5 or so a turn killed him.
SB: - 3 MWM, + 3 Thalia
Game 2 he Show and Tell'd into Omni
Game 3 I kept a slow hand, then he Pyroclasm'd my board of Lackey, Warchief, MWM, SGC + tokens away. I rebuilt with Matron-Ringleader, and he pyroclasm'd again. Eventually Warchief + dorks take him down as he has Show, but nothing to tell (same as G1).
Note: I had nothing to stop me losing straight up to S&T with Omni in hand. O-Ring would give me a chance.
2-1

Finals vs tin fins (who had had multiple T1 kills throughout the tournament)
G1 he attacks me with Griselbrand and Emrakul on T2.
SB: - 4 Ringleaders, 4 Gempalms, 2 Aether Vial, Sharpshooter, 1 SGC, + 4 RIP, 4 CotV, 3 Thalia, + Liege
G2 I start with Lackey into RIP, then cheat in Matron -> SGC. He doesn't come back from that.
G3 I start with this hand on the draw: Bloodstained Mire, 2 CotV, Thalia, Piledriver, Warchief, SGC. Would you keep this hand?
I ended up keeping it since even if I falter on hitting a land for my first two draw steps, CotV on 0 still shuts down his Lotus Petals and Chrome Moxes which he uses to surge through his combo after drawing 14 from Griselbrand. I ripped a land like a champ, then played a CotV for 0 on turn 1, then T2 Thalia, followed by CotV for 1 on T3. After that random durdles killed him.

So I won the tournament (and two Tarmogoyfs). Neat.

Thoughts on the deck.
1. Thalia vs MWM. I honestly think that Thalia is better vs basically non-Tarmogoyf decks, which is most of the field. All throughout I was asking myself 'is MWM better here?' and while sometimes it let Piledriver attack for more, it could be cast off R because of Warchief, usually Thalia was a much better play. She's *much* better in the matchups that I feel are bad for us. MWM also is a nombo with RIP (since you don't get the token when he is exiled).

2. Karakas vs Port. I was fully on board with Karakas before the tournament, and it has been good for me in the past. But Port really did work, letting my rubbishy little dudes kill them while disrupting their mana. I'd like to see how a list with both Thalia and Port plays. Port takes Goblins from being a midrange deck (i.e. a bad deck) and making it a tempo or aggro-control deck, with much better game vs control and combo.

3. Krenko vs SGC. Never missed him. Krenko is just too slow, and can't act as a removal spell.

4. I used my whole SB, and like them all. I felt pretty naked though vs Energy Field and Show and Tell without Oblivion Ring in my SB. I think that 3 Thalia MD and 3 O-Ring SB is better than what I played.

[Avatara]

@magicmerl - grats on your finish. You didn't really play any match-ups where MWM shines besides Zoo. He's a lot better vs RUG, Team America, Maverick and Jund.

[goblinsplayer]

Goblins is in the DTB forum! yay

[Sasan]

Tobias Dreger won one of the Grand Prix trials yesterday in Strassbourg.

Interesting list. As always he plays with blue splash.


Tobias Dreger
GPT Winner - Legacy



Main Deck
60 cards

4 Cavern of Souls
1 Plateau
3 Rishadan Port
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
23 lands

3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Lightning Crafter
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Sparksmith
2 Stingscourger
33 creatures

4 Aether Vial
4 other spells

Sideboard
1 Boartusk Liege
3 Celestial Purge
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
15 sideboard cards

[goblinsplayer]

[QUOTE=Sasan;717650]Tobias Dreger won one of the Grand Prix trials yesterday in Strassbourg.

Interesting list. As always he plays with blue splash.



Blue splash? interesting... also kinda iffy. will be testing this sometime soon. Well, speaking of weird splashes, what do you think about the black splash? It's one of my personal favorites and i want to hear other people's thoughts.

[jrw1985]

I'll be playing in SCG Milwaukee tomorrow. Wish me luck! Naturally I'll be rocking Goblins. Hopefully I get good MUs and good draws.

[jrw1985]

Tobias Dreger won one of the Grand Prix trials yesterday in Strassbourg.

Interesting list. As always he plays with blue splash.

Tobias Dreger
GPT Winner - Legacy

Main Deck
60 cards

4 Cavern of Souls
1 Plateau
3 Rishadan Port
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
23 lands

3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Lightning Crafter
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Sparksmith
2 Stingscourger
33 creatures

4 Aether Vial
4 other spells

Sideboard
1 Boartusk Liege
3 Celestial Purge
3 Pyrokinesis
2 relic
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
15 sideboard cards

Tobias knows his Goblins. He placed 18th with a goblins list at a GP last year. Congrats to him.

[Dice_Box]

Blue splash? interesting... also kinda iffy.
I can see the merits as two fold.

First he only played one card that kills early combo, letting him race for the win. I really like the idea, a counter in a goblin deck is something you would not expect. I like Chalice but I can see where Pierce can be useful too.

Second is the WTF moment when you drop a Volcanic Island. The mental meltdown that that can cause. Because it is so strange to see, "Island, Lackey turn" that no one is going to have a clue what he is going to pull from that deck. I mean what are you going to think of? Flectomancer maybe but nothing jumps right to mind. It is an interesting play. I like it.

[Avatara]

We don't know if the Spell Pierces actually made him win any games. (or if they are the reason why he placed first at all)

[Dice_Box]

We don't know if the Spell Pierces actually made him win any games. (or if they are the reason why he placed first at all)
Granted. I also doubt one card would have won him the placing. I know the man has much more skill at the competitive level than myself so that would help him most. I see the change up as being a unique twist on the deck though and I would be interested to know how useful it was for him.

I still have to say I think the WTF role of playing blue in a Goblin deck should not be overlooked. It really is a head spin. Though we have decks splashing all the other colours so I guess it was a matter of time before blue got the same treatment.

[goblinsplayer]

Just wondering, how good is sparksmith in goblins?

[ScatmanX]

I'll be playing in SCG Milwaukee tomorrow. Wish me luck! Naturally I'll be rocking Goblins. Hopefully I get good MUs and good draws.
Good Luck!

[Ace/Homebrew]

Good Luck!

Link (http://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd88ed5b90cfb46edba899033c9.r65.cf1.rackcdn.com/www/scg_events/files/20130414153748000000.html)

Looks like he's doing very well going into round 5.
There's only 1 Jonathan W at the tournament and he's on table 3 in the link above. I'm assuming that's JRW!

[jrw1985]

Link (http://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd88ed5b90cfb46edba899033c9.r65.cf1.rackcdn.com/www/scg_events/files/20130414153748000000.html)

Looks like he's doing very well going into round 5.
There's only 1 Jonathan W at the tournament and he's on table 3 in the link above. I'm assuming that's JRW!

That is I. Just picked up my first loss against Shardless BUG. 4-1. We'll see if I can turn it around.

[jrw1985]

I'm 7-1 right now, positioned to draw into top 8!

[Ace/Homebrew]

Good luck Jon!

Edit: 10th out of 279! Great job!
Can't wait to read your report!!

[Dice_Box]

Top 8? Nice. Let us know how it all turns out.

[L10]

Congrats Jon with your 7-2, barely missing the top 8. That's a really good showing. I think we will all be looking forward to your report. The RUG Cascade deck looks like a rough match-up.

[magicmerl]

Gobolord, I was just going through the OP again (shamelessly looking to see if my 1st place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=717569&viewfull=1#post717569) had a link there), and I have to say how impressed I am with the primer. The idea of the 'core' is one that I am really settling on (although I think that 4 Gempalm Incinerators are probably core as well).

In the 'flex' section there's almost room for two different tiers: Cards you almost certainly should play (4 Gempalms, Prospector, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter) and more flexible cards (MWM, Thalia, TSH/Scrapper, Chieftain, Krenko, Tarfire/Bolt etc).

However, this bit I have a quibble with:

Since May 2012 Cavern of Souls is considered an auto-include in every Goblin-decklist. However, as yet there is no consensus about the right number. When creating decklists with many copies of Cavern of Souls we should be cautious about the number of non-creature-goblin-cards that require colored mana like Lightning Bolt, Warren Weirding and Gempalm Incinerator.

The most common splash-colors for Gobs are Black and Green.
I think that the consensus number of Caverns is 4. And the most common splash colour is white, or white-green.

And I'm not sure that it's fair to categorise Oblivion Ring as a 'bad' card, since while it does less vs Show and Tell than Angel of Despair and CitR do, it's more flexible since it can be used as enchantment removal vs Energy Field and Moat as well.

And most of the 'to be tested' section could probably be moved to the 'bad cardchoices' section.... :) (except for maybe Rakdos Charm, Frogtosser bannaret, Pendelhaven and the not-there-right-now Karakas).

Is it worth talking about the two different strategic roles goblins can occupy? i.e. As a midrange deck feasting on aggro decks (where removal spells are great in the flex slots) and as a tempo (or aggro-control) deck using Ports and Thalias to disrupt the opponent while basically any crappy little goblin will do as a win condition. That would explain to me some of the crosstalk that there's been about removal spells vs Thalia/ports, when the two camps are trying to optimise two different builds that feast on different parts of the metagame. Does that make sense?

[Avatara]

And most of the 'to be tested' section could probably be moved to the 'bad cardchoices' section.... :) (except for maybe Rakdos Charm, Frogtosser bannaret, Pendelhaven and the not-there-right-now Karakas).Maybe you can enlighten us with some play test data on why those cards are bad?

[Dice_Box]

Quick question.

I am going to play my first game in a while tomorrow and do not know the Meta at the shop I am going to. My question, Splash green and play Krosan Grip or stay mono red and play only a single Tuktuk Scrapper?

[GoboLord]

Gobolord, I was just going through the OP again (shamelessly looking to see if my 1st place finish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=717569&viewfull=1#post717569) had a link there), and I have to say how impressed I am with the primer. The idea of the 'core' is one that I am really settling on (although I think that 4 Gempalm Incinerators are probably core as well).

In the 'flex' section there's almost room for two different tiers: Cards you almost certainly should play (4 Gempalms, Prospector, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter) and more flexible cards (MWM, Thalia, TSH/Scrapper, Chieftain, Krenko, Tarfire/Bolt etc).

However, this bit I have a quibble with:

I think that the consensus number of Caverns is 4. And the most common splash colour is white, or white-green.

And I'm not sure that it's fair to categorise Oblivion Ring as a 'bad' card, since while it does less vs Show and Tell than Angel of Despair and CitR do, it's more flexible since it can be used as enchantment removal vs Energy Field and Moat as well.

And most of the 'to be tested' section could probably be moved to the 'bad cardchoices' section.... :) (except for maybe Rakdos Charm, Frogtosser bannaret, Pendelhaven and the not-there-right-now Karakas).

Is it worth talking about the two different strategic roles goblins can occupy? i.e. As a midrange deck feasting on aggro decks (where removal spells are great in the flex slots) and as a tempo (or aggro-control) deck using Ports and Thalias to disrupt the opponent while basically any crappy little goblin will do as a win condition. That would explain to me some of the crosstalk that there's been about removal spells vs Thalia/ports, when the two camps are trying to optimise two different builds that feast on different parts of the metagame. Does that make sense?
It's always nice for me to get some feedback on the opening post, since I spend a considerable amount of time on upating it. So, for you questions/suggestions:

* Cavern of Souls is indeed an auto-4-off. I will change that.
* apparently the most common splash colors change from time to time. I will just leave that part out
* I will not re-work the "flex" cards section, because I don't agree with you on this "two-tier" system. I get the idea, but I don't think that cards can be categorized that easily.
* I think Vial Goblins can always play several strategic roles - and that doesn't depend on how many spotremval or Rishadan Ports you run. I have to dismiss this idea too, because it wouldn't capture the idea of Vial Goblins properly. As an example: I like to play a higher number of removal spells in combination with 4 Rishadan Ports, because that opens up some good lines of tempo-plays, (like when you got few dudes and you won't let your opponent cast spells anymore), while it sometimes also enables you to play a control-role (you buy some turns for your Vial, while tapping your oponent out and killing his dudes with spotremoval). As you can see: things aren't that simply.
* I know what Oblivion RIng can do and why some people think it's a good card. However, we've had this discussion and I don't want to start it all over again. Besides: the opening post is colored with some personal views of mine (although I try to keep my writings as objectively as possible). This means that there will always be phrases and statements that people disagree with (I tend to disagree with my past writings too). This means: if you find Oblivion Ring good enough to include it in your SB, then please do so. In fact, I won't stop anybody who does so - it's just that I have come to the the conclusion that it's always better to run Confusion in the Rank or Angel of Despair instead. I'm also not willing to explain why I put some card on the list of "bad cardchoices". After all the primer should give you a general idea of what Vial Goblins can and can't do. It's not the holy bible of Goblins...
(sorry if that last part sounds a little enraged. It isn't meant to sound that way)


@ Dice_Box: Mono Red, please!

[magicmerl]

Maybe you can enlighten us with some play test data on why those cards are bad?
I was saying that everything *but* those cards were bad.... Anyway, I'm aware I was being a bit cheeky dismissing a whole list without giving reasons. tbh the only card that I've actually played on the tbt list is Lightning Crafter, which was ok, but I found it to be a 'win more' card. Occasionally it would win on the spot in conjunction with KikiJiki, but most of the time when it was good, most anything else would have been good enough too.

I only have room for the absolute minimum of goblins that cost more than 2: 2 SGC, 4 Ringleaders, 4 Matrons, 4 Warchief plus one (marginal) Sharpshooter to taste. Everything else has to be cheaper than 3 mana to make the cut for me.


I like to play a higher number of removal spells in combination with 4 Rishadan Ports, because that opens up some good lines of tempo-plays
Actually, I think that running removal spells instead of cheap early goblins (which are the cards the removals are competing for slots with) is kinda the opposite of a tempo-play, unless you are specifically meaning getting a lackey through after burning their blocker. I'm not a big fan of this line of play strategically, because in my experience the way most opponents protect themselves from lackey is by killing him. Then you're left with a crappy burn spell in your hand that will let you go 1-for-1 with the opponents creature at best. If they have a blocker for early lackey, I'm fine with vomiting goblins onto the table for a few turns while we have a standoff. Eventually we can swarm them. Running a burn spell to 'protect' lackey seems like running Negate (or Essence Scatter) in a control deck in standard. Sometimes they ask a different question that you didn't come prepared to answer.


I am going to play my first game in a while tomorrow and do not know the Meta at the shop I am going to. My question, Splash green and play Krosan Grip or stay mono red and play only a single Tuktuk Scrapper?
I think that mono-red is always a good baseline to start with. It's only once you know the weaknesses of mono-R that you need to turn to other colours. I think getting experience with the 'core' deck is good. Krosan Grip and TSH/Tuktuk Scrapper are marginal choices anyway, so it's not like you are changing the deck massively with the tweaks. The players/decks at my LGS that I want to be most prepared for are all combo decks, hence my adoration of Thalia.

[Dice_Box]

Lightning Crafter, which was ok, but I found it to be a 'win more' card. Occasionally it would win on the spot in conjunction with KikiJiki, but most of the time when it was good, most anything else would have been good enough too.


The players/decks at my LGS that I want to be most prepared for are all combo decks, hence my adoration of Thalia.

I see LC as a kind of spot removal. If you have enough lords that give haste in your deck, then you can summon it with a marton, play it, champion out the marton and hit something. Then when it dies you get your matron back and go looking for something else you may need. It is a niche card but worth being played as a one off. It is also a better problem solver than Kreko is.

Also why do you run Thalia over Thorn of Amethyst? Is it the cheat ability of vial to get around counters or is there another reason? I just can't afford to buy more duel lands if there is not a really good reason and I need to stop combo.

[jrw1985]

Good luck Jon!

Edit: 10th out of 279! Great job!
Can't wait to read your report!!


Top 8? Nice. Let us know how it all turns out.


Congrats Jon with your 7-2, barely missing the top 8. That's a really good showing. I think we will all be looking forward to your report. The RUG Cascade deck looks like a rough match-up.

Thanks guys! It was pretty disappointing missing Top 8. My round 9 opponent (Julio Fontanez, 5th) couldn't draw in so we had to play it out. It turns out he was running a list that was just a fucking nightmare. His list ran Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, 8 cascade creatures, and Punishing Fire, so he pretty much put a collosal beating on me. I also kept a loose hand G1 and mulled to a slow 6 G2 and couldn't draw any relevant hate (not that it would have mattered, he got too far ahead too quickly). So I got kinda dream-crushed, forced out of top-8 instead of being able to draw in.

I'll write a real report tomorrow I think.

[ScatmanX]

Thanks guys! It was pretty disappointing missing Top 8. My round 9 opponent (Julio Fontanez, 5th) couldn't draw in so we had to play it out. It turns out he was running a list that was just a fucking nightmare. His list ran Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, 8 cascade creatures, and Punishing Fire, so he pretty much put a collosal beating on me. I also kept a loose hand G1 and mulled to a slow 6 G2 and couldn't draw any relevant hate (not that it would have mattered, he got too far ahead too quickly). So I got kinda dream-crushed, forced out of top-8 instead of being able to draw in.

I'll write a real report tomorrow I think.
Still, awesome show! Congratz!
can't wait to read the report, and thoughts on decklist/matches.

[magicmerl]

I see LC as a kind of spot removal. If you have enough lords that give haste in your deck, then you can summon it with a marton, play it, champion out the marton and hit something. Then when it dies you get your matron back and go looking for something else you may need. It is a niche card but worth being played as a one off. It is also a better problem solver than Kreko is.
I was running KikiJiki, but cut him for Krenko when Krenko came out (and have recently cut Krenko for the 2nd SGC). I think that removal is too prevalent for running a 'cute' card like KikiJiki that cares about your opponents removal spells. I want to play my goblins and watch them die, then play some more. I don't want to care about my goblins in play :)


Also why do you run Thalia over Thorn of Amethyst? Is it the cheat ability of vial to get around counters or is there another reason? I just can't afford to buy more duel lands if there is not a really good reason and I need to stop combo.
There are several reasons Thalia is just flat out better than Thorn of Amethyst, despite them looking like the same card.
1. As you say, Aether Vial
2. Cavern of Souls also makes Thalia uncounterable, whereas Thorn can be countered pretty easily
3. Thalia is actually a clock while they do nothing

I think if you are looking for a storm hoser in mono-R then Mindbreak Trap is a better option.

[Dice_Box]

I think you misunderstood, I was talking about Lightning Crafter not Kiki-Jiki. I LC as a card that you can pull and break something. Then when it dies you go looking for something else.

So say you need a bit of damage to break a Togg, fetch a crafter, hit it for 3, let the card be removed and then fetch a ringleader.

[GoboLord]

First of all this:


However, I'm less optimistic about the new set (even less so when it's Izzet-themed). A blue (or red-and-blue) Goblin would probably have the power-level of cards like Goblin Flectomancer or the infamous Razorfin Hunter
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141278&d=1365772144

Second:


I think if you are looking for a storm hoser in mono-R then Mindbreak Trap is a better option.
Mindbreak Trap IS a good card vs. Storm combo, however, playing stormcombo myself I know that Gitaxian Probe makes it way easier for you to prepare for unwanted shit. I think really the ugliest package Goblins of stormcombo hate we can possibly have is Leyline of Sanctity + Mindbreak Trap (+ maybe some occassional grave-hate).

[magicmerl]

I think you misunderstood, I was talking about Lightning Crafter not Kiki-Jiki. I LC as a card that you can pull and break something. Then when it dies you go looking for something else.

So say you need a bit of damage to break a Togg, fetch a crafter, hit it for 3, let the card be removed and then fetch a ringleader.
Sorry, I originally wrote quite a bit more about the LC-KJ combo, then trimmed it down upon review and ended up only talking about KikiJiki. :)

I personally want the last 'flex' slots in my deck to be cheap threats (which is why I prefer TSH to Scrapper, since 90% of the time I just run him out there as a dude) so that I can pressure the opponent.

I think that there are heaps of 'toy' cards like Lightning Crafter, KikiJiki, Wort etc that look awesome and in certain situations ARE awesome, but aren't consistent enough. This basically comes down to Classic vs Romantic (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=2275) game theory (more recently known as 'magical christmas land'). In a nutshell, Classic theory says to maximise the minimum (worst) case, while Romantic theory aims to maximise the maximum (best) case. Choosing cards like Restoration Angel, Lightning Crafter, KikiJiki is Romantic, because the cards are clearly awesome in the specific situations where they shine. They are far less awesome in situations where you are mana shy or they are your only creatures.

[Dice_Box]

I can grant you that its scope of attack is narrow, but so is something like sharpshooter and it is almost a global one off. I don't know, I will test it out tonight and you might be totally right. But I will try anything once and I think that what I said was the best situation but I see how it works in other situations too. It is a 3 point face hit or a finisher after combat. Its not limited to just championing out a critter to get a CIP effect. Thats just something you can use when you play it if you have the option.

Now playing it alongside Thornbite I see as a long shot but on its own in a deck that can use the firepower. I will see.

[magicmerl]

Yeah, give it a try and see how it goes. I'm locked in with 23 lands and another 30 cards already (the 'core' plus 4 Gempalms). That's 53 cards all up, so I only really have 7 flex slots to play with and even then they aren't completely open ended:

3 Mogg War Marshall / Thalia, Guardian of Thraben / Warren Instigator (I can't ever see running anything other than these three in this slot. In fact, I even want to run MORE than 3 two drops in these 7 slots)
1 Stingscourger (in the current meta this guys is SO important)

** then we get to the more questionable cards. Of course, there are only 3 open slots now.... **

1 Skirk Prospector (This guy is SOOOO unexciting. Yet whenever I think about cutting him somehow I end up playing vs a Jitte or needing to machine gun down some creatures and I remember why he is good. Plus, having extra 1-2CC dudes is good)
1 Tin Street Hooligan (random artifact kill. maybe this card should be a SB. easily replaced with Scrapper, which is more costly. maybe this should be a Goblin Chieftain...)
1 Goblin Sharpshooter (again, easily arguable as a SB card. I currently run him main since he's good vs green/tribal decks)

I realise you don't have an identical list to me. What are you running different from my list in order to try out Lightning Crafter (and other cards)?

[Dice_Box]

I put the deck into Cockatrice last night so I will just post it over. I have done a massive amount of editing to my base. Most of my last main competitive play was done when most of these cards where type 2. (So I am a touch out of practice.) I am still in the mindset of Pros, War, Pile. Best opener in the day. I love my lackeys but I still lean on my Prospectors more. So this edit is really really new to me and comes from a fair amount of reading this thread when I should have been doing other things. Anyway here is the list: (Crypt because it is all I have too.)

Critters
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Artifacts
4 Æther Vial

Land
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
10 Mountain

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis

[magicmerl]

Right, so the basic differences between our lists are pretty small:
yours - mine
2nd Stingscourger - 4th Gempalm
3 MWM - 3 Thalia
1 Chieftain - 4th Warchief
1 Lightning Crafter - 1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Kiki Jiki - 23rd land

They are all pretty marginal (except for the land-for-5-drop, which looks like it will shift the deck a lot slower).

Regarding your SB, you really should invest in some Relic of Progenitus. It's seriously better as GY hate. And Pithing Needle looks really random, maybe I'm just not good enough of a player to use it properly.

[Dice_Box]

Right, so the basic differences between our lists are pretty small:
yours - mine
2nd Stingscourger - 4th Gempalm
3 MWM - 3 Thalia
1 Chieftain - 4th Warchief
1 Lightning Crafter - 1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Kiki Jiki - 23rd land

They are all pretty marginal (except for the land-for-5-drop, which looks like it will shift the deck a lot slower).

Regarding your SB, you really should invest in some Relic of Progenitus. It's seriously better as GY hate. And Pithing Needle looks really random, maybe I'm just not good enough of a player to use it properly.

I have done so, they are in the post. As for Kiki. Might trade him out for a land. Thinking on it.

Edit. Pithing you can play in response too. So Jite hits the table. On your turn you drop pithing and bingo. Does a lot more than that tho. Can hose dredge with it too. You need to know more about other decks to use it well and at this point I do not, but I see its use to run it anyway.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Classic vs Romantic (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=2275)
Thank you for linking this!

Merl, I feel the same way about Cabal Therapy as you do about Pithing Needle. Lack of confidence has kept me from trying it even though I have had a set for years.

Dice, you can splash :w: with only 1 Plateau if you already have the fetches. Skip lunch for a week or two and you've opened up a new option. Or ask friends and people you know at the event to borrow one. People are surprisingly generous.


I've been very resistant to playing Thalia. I HATE using a non-goblin creature in this deck. But people's success (namely Max Tietze and JRW) recently has made me reconsider and I am testing her in the board. Which match-ups other than Storm-based combo have you pro-Thalia guys found her useful in? Thanks!

[GoboLord]

@ magicmerl & Dice_Box:
Very interesting discussion. Really good stuff going on here lately. Love that!



I've been very resistant to playing Thalia. I HATE using a non-goblin creature in this deck. But people's success (namely Max Tietze and JRW) recently has made me reconsider and I am testing her in the board. Which match-ups other than Storm-based combo have you pro-Thalia guys found her useful in? Thanks!

* Sneak Show
* TinFins
* UW Miracles / any control deck
* RUG Thresh
* RU Delver / Burn

However, Thalia is most effective against stormcombo and RUG Thresh - vs. the other decks listed she's just "better than a spotremoval".

[magicmerl]

Thank you for linking this!

Merl, I feel the same way about Cabal Therapy as you do about Pithing Needle. Lack of confidence has kept me from trying it even though I have had a set for years.
Yeah, I ran Cabal Therapy back in the day with a black splash, but I was so terribad I never got the right stuff with it.


I've been very resistant to playing Thalia. I HATE using a non-goblin creature in this deck.
It's no different really from playing a non-goblin spell like Lightning Bolt. Except of course Aether Vial and Cavern of Souls make her uncounterable....


But people's success (namely Max Tietze and JRW) recently has made me reconsider and I am testing her in the board. Which match-ups other than Storm-based combo have you pro-Thalia guys found her useful in? Thanks!
She's very good vs Dark Ritual and Brainstorm both since those decks are slowed down ENORMOUSLY. Less good vs G/R and white removal spells (like Swords and Terminus). Basically any deck with more spells than us breaks her symmetry.

[GoboLord]

She's very good vs Dark Ritual and Brainstorm both since those decks are slowed down ENORMOUSLY. Less good vs G/R and white removal spells (like Swords and Terminus). Basically any deck with more spells than us breaks her symmetry.

I just remembered that someone played Ethersworn Canonist a while ago. I actually think that Ethersworn Cannonist is better than Thalia vs. RUG, and Combo, but worse against Sneak Show and UW Miracles. They can't pull off this "in response: Brainstorm. Then [spell]" stuff anymore.

[Dice_Box]

Ok here we go. I ran my list without Kiki and with a extra Mountian.

First Match, Agro Elves.
First game he comboed out second turn.

-1
Sharpshooter
Crafter
Chieftain
War Marshal

+4 Kinesis

Game 2, Loss
I was forced to mull to 5. Had one land. I Pyroed his engine and killed his start. Drew no lands and folded turn 5 after he beat me down with critters.


Second Match, SnT (Omniscience)
Game one lost turn 2

Side in Chalice

Game two, refer to game one.


Match 3, StoneBlade
Game 1. Loss.
Jite, yea.

Side in Pithing

Game 2. Loss (My fault, I misplayed.)
I misplayed my opening. I did not know he had decided to keep and played fast. He saw my opening and Mulled, then StP my Lackey. From there we raced, I then realized I had not sided in Scrapper. I top a Pithing and he in response kills my board. We race back and forth and I lose with him on 4 thanks to a flyer. In all the guy was nice and pointed out where he thought I had made mistakes. I know from this I can play this better.


Match 4. Custom B/G Discard.
Game one. Win.
Cavern, Lackey, go.

Side in like I had for Elves.

Game two. Loss
He played first and made me discard my lackey. I had mulled to five and kept a hand. After the loss of lackey he made me discard my Ringleader and my Warchief. I did put up a race but he ended with 11 life.

Game Three. Win.
Lackey came in, hit turn two, dropped Recruiter. Drew two Gempalm and a Siege. Game.


What I learnt.
Zo Zu will have to go into the sideboard. Will kill everyone here. So many fetchlands.
I need a better counter for combo. I felt like I had no answers.
Grave hate should have been played against the elves. (Thought of that now. Hindsight)

What I am going to do.
Owner of the shop promised me four Root maze for next week. I will try it. Might be DOA but I think it is worth the trial.
Going to try Mainbord Pyro. I feel like it is helpful. Might not next week when trying Root Maze.
Chalice is too slow to stop combo here. Might play Mindbreak in its place.

Thoughts?

[Sandro95]

Ok here we go. I ran my list without Kiki and with a extra Mountian.

First Match, Agro Elves.
First game he comboed out second turn.

-1
Sharpshooter


Why board out Sharpshooter against Elves? It seems like one of our best cards against them.

[Dice_Box]

Inexperience.

[ScatmanX]

Why board out Sharpshooter against Elves? It seems like one of our best cards against them.
True.
Aside from that, here's what you can do:
- Write your decklist + SB with your report. It'll help us comment on it.
- Write down at least the moment when you realize you'd lost. Just writing "Jitte, yeah" doesn't mean anything. Lots of games are won even trough a Jitte T2 on G1, so that's not enough. What did you keep? Did you made any mistakes even if the game was already unfavorable?
- Tell us the side-ins and side-outs.

Other comments are:
Zozu seems nice, but is not good at all. Tested it, but feel free to do so.
Same goes for Root Maze.
MB kinesis is good sometimes, but looking at the decks you played against, the SB seem like the best place for it.

[jrw1985]

Tournament Report!


A week before the Milwaukee SCG Legacy Open it occurred to me that going to this tournament was a real possibility. My girlfriend and I had the weekend open, Milwaukee has always seemed like a cool town, and being a mere 5 hours' drive away from my hometown of Minneapolis meant the drive was doable. So we booked a hotel room, made dinner reservations for Saturday evening, and headed out to Milwaukee early Saturday morning. Our Saturday in Milwaukee was filled with booze (Milwaukee Brewing Co brewery tour) and food (dinner at Braise, a James Beard nominated restaurant). Sunday morning I woke up bright and early and wandered off to the convention center. My girlfriend's sister came up to visit from Chicago, so the two of them spent the day exploring the town while I hunkered down to play some Magic in the Delta Center.



Goblins

Jonathan Watry

10th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 4/14/2013

Creatures (34)

4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Spells (4)

4 Aether Vial

Lands (22)

3 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Plateau
1 Rishadan Port
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas


Sideboard

2 Chalice of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Blood Moon
1 Rest in Peace
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis

I designed my deck to give me a chance of stealing G1 against combo with Thalia, and beating any creature-based deck with Goblins' natural card advantage and Krenko.

I changed up my manabase slightly right before the tournament by swapping out a second, redundant Taiga for a more useful Rishadan Port. I figured the Port would be more relevant than colored mana in that 1 slot, and I didn't need to play 2 Taigas seeing as how I only ran 2 KGrips and TSH could be cast off Cavern.

I only ran 3 Piledriver because a 4th seemed redundant. For the same reason I only ran 3 MWM. 4 of either card seemed like too many and I'd rather have more flex slots to get more value out of my Matrons.

Karakas needed to be in there as a random out to Grizz and Emrakul, as well as to help cast Thalia.

1 SGC was enough for me because I think Krenko is better at winning games, but there's no denying that SGC can be incredibly powerful and useful as well. However, since SGC and Krenko fulfill the same role (create chumpers, win games) it seemed that having a variety of ways to win was actually the better call.

SB - I wanted at least 1 RiP because it is the best GY hate card, but it is redundant in mutiples. So I ran 2 Relic as well, since they can cycle so you can avoid the awkwardness of having multiples.

Blood Moon is an interesting card for me. It is there because the format is lousy with decks with purely NonBasic manabases. Now most of these decks run DRS as well, but GY hate and spot removal can effectively shut them off, and a Blood Moon can then completely shut them down. I probably still need to do more playtesting, but it seems like the best answer to Shardless BUG and Jund decks that I've seen so far.


Onto the Tournament Report!

279 Players. 9 Rounds X-2 cut to Top 8.

R1 - Eric - Merfolk

G1 I'm on the draw. Eric plays a Vial, then Forces min. He beats me down with 3 Lords and a Mutavault. A strong G1 for Merfolk.

I side in 3 Pyrokinesis and take out Thalia.

G2 I keep my 7, Eric mulls to 6. I use a Port to Tap him down, and he's fairly mana screwed. his big play this game is copying a Mogg War Marshal with a Phantasmal Image. I win it easy.

G3 Again, I keep my 7, Eric mulls to 6. I take hits from him while I build up a force 3 Piledrivers strong, then just run sideways for the win.

1-0


R2 - Kenta - BUG Control

G1 I'm on the play and we both keep 7. I cast T1 Lackey, he plays T1 DRS. I T2 Stingscourger the DRS to Lackey a Ringleader into play. Ringleader draws me 3 goblins. I take control of this one pretty quickly.

I side out Thalia for Graveyard hate.

G2 We both keep 7, but mine is Vial, Lackey, Lackey, 3 Goblins, and 1 Cavern of Souls. I keep it because, what the hell, I'm up a game. Let's see if it gets there. It doesn't. He drops 3 Goyfs onto the table and it's over quickly and violently.

G3 I keep my 7, he mulls to 6. I get Krenko online and Kenta can't find an answer.

2-0


R3 - Darrel - UW Blade

G1 I mull to 6, he keeps his 7. I get a large force with 2 Piledrivers on board and attack into his active SFM while he has Batterskull in hand. He elects to scoop, which I thought was a little early, but I'm not going to argue. He just must not have had the mana to make BS tricks happen.

I side out 3 Thalia and side in 2 KGrip and 1 Tin Street hooligan. I probably also swapped 2 Pyrokinesis for Stingscourger and Gempalm, so I could have more firepower to throw at SFM to keep BS offline. Pyrokinesis provides a lot of speed on the draw.

G2 Darrel keeps 7, I mull to 6. When Darrel has 2 basic lands he plays a Tundra and casts SFM for Batterskull. I Gempalm the SFM and Waste the Tundra. Darrel plays the Fetchland he had in hand last turn and curses his misplay as he shows me the Supreme Verdict he had stuck in hand.You relly need to keep your eyes open for those types of plays. Anytime you can take away your opponent's play AND their mana development it's like you've taken away their turn, and that's bound to mess with their gameplan.

I'd like to say that this round was one of those variance matches where it just seemed he never had what he needed when he needed it.

3-0


R4 - Nicholas - MUD

G1 I keep a slow control-ish hand with Vial and Gempalm. I go T1 Vial, Nicholas plays T1 City of Traitors into Lightning Greaves. I play a land and pass T2. He plays Metalworker, equips Greaves, reveals a hand of all artifacts, casts Kuldotha Forgemaster, equips Greaves, I scoop. Not really much you can do against the nuts.

I side out Thalias and bring in TSH, KGrips. I also shave some Gempalms for Pyrokinesis.

G2 we both mull to 6, but I have a super quick Lackey hand and the spot removal to put him behind so he scoops.

G3 gets hairy. He plays a Lodestone Golem, then another, but I'm somehow able to get Krenko in play, producing infinite blockers and generating the win after 3 or 4 turns.
4-0


R5 - Logan (9th) - Shardless BUG

G1 Deathrite and Abrupt Decay stifle my board developement and Shardless Agent and Jace put me far behind.
I sideboard terribly. This is a match were I should have brought in 3 Blood Moon, 2 Relic, 1 RiP, 3 Pyrokinesis and I should have taken out 3 Thalia, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter, 4 Vials. I just should have gone for pure control, trying to lock him out of the game with Moon. Instead I just sided in Grips and TSH in place of Thalias!?! I didn't even bring in GY hate! Poor choice I think.

G2 I lost decisively.
4-1

I hopped on the Source, got a little love, and told myself to turn it around.


R6 - Xue - ANT

Xue plays at the Monsters Den in Minneapolis, our LGS. It's always fun when you drive 5 hours to play against someone from down the street, but whatevs. The benefit if these MUs is that I know he's on ANT.

G1 I mull to 5 looking for a quick Lackey hand or a Thalia. I find neither. So i keep a hand with Piledriver, MWM, 2 lands, and X. I'm on the play so I play land, go. He Sculpts. I play Piledriver. He sculpts. I play MWM, he scultps. I don't pay the echo and draw nothing better to play, and attack for 4. He's scultpted enough apparently, and goes off, then realizes that he's misplayed and storm will only be for 8 spells. I take 16, going to 2. He goes up to 30. I swing for 7 for the next 4 turns and win.

I side in 2 Chalice, 1 MBT, 2 Relic, 1 RiP and side out Stingscourger, Shapshooter, and Gemplams.

G2 He has a hand which is heavy on removal but he can't put together the combo in time. He Abrupt decays a Thalia and a Piledriver but I'm still able to put a winning hord together before he can combo off.
5-1


R7 - Ethan - RUG Delver

G1 Ethan is on the play. He plays Volcanic T1, I Waste it. He plays Volcanic T2, I Waste it. He plays Fetch T3 and finally starts developing his board. I could have used those Wastes more for mana development than denial, but his opening made it seem like he was on a Sneak and Show list. I get beaten down by a Goyf and a Goose and lose G1.

I side in 2 Relic and 1 RiP and take out the Thalias.

G2 I take a few Delver hits while Ethan tries to control my board, but eventually I land a hastey Krenko that puts Ethan too far behind.

G3 was my most satisfying game of the day. I opened on a hand with Vial, Relic, and dudes. He plays something T1, I go for the T1 Relic, thinking that I'd rather have Relic Dazed than Vial. Relic resolves. Ethan plays a Goose. I resolve Vial. He starts beating for 1. I start playing Goblins that Ethan burns out. I draw into another Relic and play it to keep his Goose small. he plays another Goose. I pop a relic and play a RiP. At this point all I need to do is start playing Goblins and I win. It's inevitable. I Gempalm a Delver or two along the way, but it doesn't really matter. I have a RiP with a Relic backup in play. Ethan clears the board with a Rough // Tumble. It doesn't even matter. I swing fro 2 a turn until I win. Inevitability. Very satisfying.
6-1


R8 - Dan - UW Blade

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55028

G1 I mull to 4 and lose.

I sided in 2 KGrip and TSH, taking out Thalias.

G2 I mulled to 6, he kept 7. I T1 Lackey, it went plowing. I played T2 Vial, he played T2 CoP:Red ( in my mind he chortled, but I'm sure that's just me adding that in). I had a KGrip in hand at this time, so I wasn't quite worried about being locked out. T3 I ticked up Vial (Lackey in hand) and he played T3 Top, Mutavault. I Vialed in Lackey. He had a land and mutavault open. T4 I drew Gempalm. There have been many times in my life where I've burned out a Mutavault with a Gempalm after it's been activated to block a Lackey. Even though he had the CoP:R and only had to pay 1 to stop Lackey from getting through I figured the opportunity to kill Lackey would be too tempting. So I turned Lackey sideways. He thought for a moment and activated Vault. I Gempalmed it before blocks. He realized what Gempalm does. He tried tapping Mutavault for mana, but I reminded him that Vault has summoning sickness since it's now a creature and he just played it last turn. Vault hit the bin and Lackey connected. I cheated in a Ringleader, hitting 4 goblins off of it! The following turn I KGripped the CoP:R and the game was over soon thereafter.

G3 he got stuck on colored mana. He had five lands in play but 3 were Mutavault or Mishra's Factory. I got a hastey Krenko online and made 5 Goblins, then 10. I went for the Krenko line so that I could keep Ringleaders in hand for the inevitable Terminus. Dan spun Top at the end of my turn and went into the tank. He spun it again on his turn and went deep, deep into the tank. Had he been a combo deck I would have called a judge for slow play, but I figured he was only taking so much time because he was realizing that he couldn't win this one, so I wasn't going to rub it in. Dan couldn't find a sweeper and died to Goblin tokens.
7-1


R9 - Julio (5th) - RUG Cascade

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55018

I was expecting an ID this round, but Julio couldn't guarantee himself a spot in the Top-8 apparently. So We had to
play it out.

G1 I actually kept a super loose hand. I believe it was 2 Lackeys, Thalia, and 4 Land. I kept it because it could topdeck like a champ and beat a combo deck. I was on the draw and just got crushed. Punishing Fire recurred with Grove. I couldn't draw a Wasteland to get back in it. My topdecks were weak.

I sided the way I thought I should have sided for the Shardless BUG MU R5. I tried to make my deck into a super grindy control deck. I brought in 3 Blood Moon, 2 Relic, 1 RiP, 3 Pyrokinesis and took out 3 Thalia, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter, 4 Vials. In hindsight, siding out Vial was probably wrong since he didn't run Abrupt Decay.

G2 was a mess. My opening 7 was landless so I mulled to 6. The 6 had Lackey and 2 lands and Goblins, so it was a fine Goblin hand, but it was cold to a T1 DRS from him. Well, he had the DRS. The play of the game was when he cast Bloodbraid Elf, cascades into Shardless Agent, cascades into DRS. 4 mana to cast 8 mana worth of creatures, 7 power, 6 toughness. Balls. Got dream-crushed real bad. Wound up in 10th place, but whateryagonnado?
7-2

I really only have 2 major insights into this tournament.

1) Thalia didn't exactly pull her weight in the MD, but she was never terrible either. There was never a situation where the game would have been remarkable different had she been a 2-drop goblin instead of Thalia. If an uber-powerful 2cc Goblin gets printed again, Thalia will probably be moved to the SB. Until then, I don't see and remarkably better cards out there for those slots.

2) We need an answer to DRS decks that run Cascade creatures and/or Punishing Fire. Did you see the monstrosity that Julio played R9? In order to win this MU we need to turn off DRS, turn off Punishing Fire, deal with Goyf, and maintain CA against Cascade critters. Maybe I should have run 3 Relic, 1 RiP and only 2 Blood Moons and not sided in Pyrokinesis this MU... Time will tell. Blood Moon seems like a solid way to really shut them down, but it might be Win-More because GY hate might be enough. Obviously if you can land a Blood moon and remove the graveyards these DRS decks are completely locked out of the game since they run 0 basics. I need to playtest these MUs more in order to figure out what's really going to win this.

I hope you enjoyed this report (even its oscillating between present and past tense). Thanks to all you Sourcers for the support during the tourney. It was greatly appreciated and I'll try to actually Top-8 when SCG comes back to Minneapolis.

-Jon

[L10]

Here is a good starting point if you want to use Revoker or Pithing Needle. Go under "Barbed Blightning's Revoker Bible".
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633
The main difference is that Revoker can't target lands but Pithing Needle doesn't affect mana abilities. I prefer Pithing Needle because unlike DnT, we do not have a way to protect Revoker from creature removal.

As for Cabal Therapy, you do not name the card you think the opponent has in there hand (unless you know it), but the card you are most afraid of, like Engineered Plague, Moat, or Infernal Tutor, depending on your MU.

Great find with the Classic and Romantic Game Theory by Adrian Sullivan.

Edit: I will read your report when I get home Jon. Thanks for posting.

[Pee-Dee-2]

I saw that you talked about Tobi Dregers deck of the GP Trial in Strasbourg this weekend.
I worked it out with him and before I spoke about the U-splash with Tobi, I have never played it before (I played each other variants in the last X years since Legacy was announced), but I can say: it works. Spell Pierce is very strong and the idea is to board it against every unfair deck (f.e. Kombo).
At one little tournament in the last days, when I expected much kombo and Show and Tell, I had 3 Spell Pierce and 3 Flusterstorm in the sideboard (2 Volcanics main) and it was awesome.

The best is the opponent's face when he announces a spell and you fetch for a volcanic to cast flusterstorm/Spell Pierce. So was in one game against TinFins. The player knew, I would board Spell Pierces (he knows me) and on the turn before I would have killed him, he cast Dark Ritual and Massacre with 2 mana left in pool (for Spell Pierce). But I had a Flusterstorm :cool:

These are the moments of secret tech. Also have a look at the Celestial Purge in Tobi's sb. Nice card!

[GoboLord]

Hey Jon,

congrats on the good finish and thank you for the nice read. Sounds like you've had a really good weekend (also talking about the city trip and the hotel-thing :smile: )

my favorites:


R1 - Eric - Merfolk
his big play this game is copying a Mogg War Marshal with a Phantasmal Image. I win it easy.
[...]

R3 - Darrel - UW Blade
G2 Darrel keeps 7, I mull to 6. When Darrel has 2 basic lands he plays a Tundra and casts SFM for Batterskull. I Gempalm the SFM and Waste the Tundra. Darrel plays the Fetchland he had in hand last turn and curses his misplay as he shows me the Supreme Verdict he had stuck in hand.You relly need to keep your eyes open for those types of plays. Anytime you can take away your opponent's play AND their mana development it's like you've taken away their turn, and that's bound to mess with their gameplan.
[...]

I hopped on the Source, got a little love, and told myself to turn it around.
[...]

R7 - Ethan - RUG Delver.... and take out the Thalias. (!!??!?!!?!)
G3 was my most satisfying game of the day. I opened on a hand with Vial, Relic, and dudes. He plays something T1, I go for the T1 Relic, thinking that I'd rather have Relic Dazed than Vial. Relic resolves. Ethan plays a Goose. I resolve Vial. He starts beating for 1. I start playing Goblins that Ethan burns out. I draw into another Relic and play it to keep his Goose small. he plays another Goose. I pop a relic and play a RiP. At this point all I need to do is start playing Goblins and I win. It's inevitable. I Gempalm a Delver or two along the way, but it doesn't really matter. I have a RiP with a Relic backup in play. Ethan clears the board with a Rough // Tumble. It doesn't even matter. I swing fro 2 a turn until I win. Inevitability. Very satisfying.
[...]

R8 - Dan - UW Blade
There have been many times in my life where I've burned out a Mutavault with a Gempalm after it's been activated to block a Lackey. Even though he had the CoP:R and only had to pay 1 to stop Lackey from getting through I figured the opportunity to kill Lackey would be too tempting. So I turned Lackey sideways. He thought for a moment and activated Vault. I Gempalmed it before blocks. He realized what Gempalm does. He tried tapping Mutavault for mana, but I reminded him that Vault has summoning sickness since it's now a creature and he just played it last turn. Vault hit the bin and Lackey connected.


First: Why did you side out Thalia against RUG and leave Sharpshooter in the MD? I'd personally kick 1 Sharpy + 2 Lackeys to bring in the GYH.
Second:
We need an answer to DRS decks that run Cascade creatures and/or Punishing Fire.
Perish and/or Nature's Ruin should take care of the creature-side at least.
Grafdigger's Cage stops the Casacade mechanic (if I'm not mistaken).
Rest in Peace, Relic and Leyline of the Void affect Goyf, DRS and Punishing Fire.
Overall I think Pyrokinesis is a good choice vs. those decks too, since those cascade creatures and DRS are x/2, which mean you will trade 2:2 here. However, that doesnt change the fact that Cascading gives them free spells.
Hum, probably the best overall-strategy is to attck them at their mana-base with Rishadan Port/Wasteland and probably Blood Moon (and a removal for DRS ofc).

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I just remembered that someone played Ethersworn Canonist a while ago. I actually think that Ethersworn Cannonist is better than Thalia vs. RUG, and Combo, but worse against Sneak Show and UW Miracles. They can't pull off this "in response: Brainstorm. Then [spell]" stuff anymore.

I think the Cannonist is definitely bad MD because he slows you down. If you don't find a vial vs decks packing a lot of those power critters you're screwed.

But I think he presents an effective SB card vs storm combo, if you can use him with vial there is really no defense. And I did read good reasons why he is on the harder side to deal with for combo players but cannot find it the post, sorry. I'd probably still prefer Thalia for the broader applications and lesser drawbacks.

What do you think about my WI vs MWM analysis?

[GoboLord]

I think the Cannonist is definitely bad MD because he slows you down. If you don't find a vial vs decks packing a lot of those power critters you're screwed.

But I think he presents an effective SB card vs storm combo, if you can use him with vial there is really no defense. And I did read good reasons why he is on the harder side to deal with for combo players but cannot find it the post, sorry. I'd probably still prefer Thalia for the broader applications and lesser drawbacks.

What do you think about my WI vs MWM analysis?

Yup, agreed. Canonist IS bad in MD. I meant to propose him as a SB card that is much more effective against storm. The reasons are quite easy to name (at least when we are talking about storm combo):

It's possible to win with Thalia in play, while this is not true for Canonist. Both ANT and Spiral Tide (and even TES) can produce ridiculous amounts of mana with Lion's Eye Diamond, Cabal Ritual and High Tide. Thalia reduces the net mana you gain from those spells by :1: (e.g. it turns and Dark Ritual into a Desperate Ritual), but they can actually live with that e.g. by casting LEDs in advance (in preparation of the combturn).

About the MWM vs WI analysis: (Reference (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=716564&viewfull=1#post716564))
I think you have analyzed Winstigator well, but you didn't take your time to think about what MWM does for the deck. Mogg War marshal does several things that are at the heart of what VIal Goblins are about:
* he costs 1R and therefore synergistic with Goblin Warchief
* he provides up to 3 Goblins, which is relevant for several thing, namely...
* he can timewalk your opponent (what you called "slows down")
* he provides sustained pumps for Piledriver and Gempalm Incinerator (both of which are at the very heart of a Goblin strategy)
* he provides board advantage

Those are only a few points not discussed in detail. The problem that I have with Winstigator is that he can be ignored more easily than MWM. Being a 1/1 creature will oftentimes force him to sit stil in the face of a Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic or even a Deathrite Shaman. Although I know that people are quick to state that they would trade WI for SFM or DRS at any time this is simply not always the case. By attacking WI into to said Squires you will not only give your opponent the choice to block it or not. Casting a single removal is enough to get rid of WI and then you have opened up yourself to a counter attack. MWM in comparison ensures that your opponent can't counterattack easily. Even in the face of 2 critters (say: 2 Tarmogoyfs) you can easily go for an all-in attack, then drop MWM and pass and you will likely not receive any damage next turn.

Well I could go on like this, but I think you get the idea. Essentially neither WI nor MWM is a weak card per se, they simply support different strategies. I have played both cards (in different lists of course) and I'm equally fulfilled with them.

[ScatmanX]

Tournament Report!
To bad you didn't get there! But thanks for the report and good work!

Have some consideratios regarding Thalia:
1 - You side them out against Bug Control for grave hate. If it was me, I'd side Shooter, Sting, and a Gempalm, and maybe even more for Blood Moons. Thalia looks quite good against a deck that have that few creatures.
2 - You side them out against Canadian. I'd take out Shooter, a Gempalm, and a Piledriver. Again, I think Thalia is quite good on the MU, making they play the fair game of 1 spell a turn almost, while you don't have that restriction. When they can't cast a dude + Bolt + Daze in a turn, they fall behind pretty fast. Why did you take them out?

[magicmerl]

Comments in bold.

Ok here we go. I ran my list without Kiki and with a extra Mountian.

First Match, Agro Elves.
First game he comboed out second turn.

-1
Sharpshooter Uhh, this is the card for our side that locks up the win.
Crafter I'm not a fan of Crafter, but I think it's definitely good in this matchup, since it counts a 'removal'
Chieftain
War Marshal

+4 Kinesis With your list I would have cut the 4 Ringleaders for 4 Pyro. The other guys all are cheaper and make Gempalms better

Game 2, Loss
I was forced to mull to 5. Had one land. I Pyroed his engine and killed his start. Drew no lands and folded turn 5 after he beat me down with critters.
Right, so at least one conclusion is that 23 land didn't seem like too much, right?

Second Match, SnT (Omniscience)
Game one lost turn 2

Side in Chalice

Game two, refer to game one.
Yeah, this matchup is not good for us. Why did you SB in CotV? Their key card costs 3 mana..... The typical sideboards for this matchup are Angel of Despair, Confusion in the Ranks, and Oblivion Ring. O-Ring is inferior to the others for this specific matchup, but it's castable vs other things like Energy Field so I run it in my SB.

Match 3, StoneBlade
Game 1. Loss.
Jite, yea.
Funny story. In my quarterfinals I beat my opponent who went T2 Stoneforge (for Jitte), T3 Vial in Batterskull, T4 Attack with the skull, Jace, T5 Jitte, equip Batterskull, attack. I won because I matron'd for Prospector and Aether Vial on 2 gave me Stingscourger to blow out his T5 attack by bouncing the Germ token (then a cycled Gempalm kills his Stoneforge, attacks killed his Jace, and suddenly he has no board vs a horde of little dorks. So. Jitte, yea.

Side in Pithing
Is this the matchup you want Pithing Needle for? I think that the matchup hinges on their equipment, so cards that destroy artifacts (and prevent combat damage, but we run those ones MD) is really what we want for this matchup.

Game 2. Loss (My fault, I misplayed.)
I misplayed my opening. I did not know he had decided to keep and played fast. He saw my opening and Mulled, then StP my Lackey. From there we raced, I then realized I had not sided in Scrapper. Doh! I top a Pithing and he in response kills my board. We race back and forth and I lose with him on 4 thanks to a flyer. In all the guy was nice and pointed out where he thought I had made mistakes. I know from this I can play this better.


Match 4. Custom B/G Discard.
Game one. Win.
Cavern, Lackey, go.

Side in like I had for Elves. I think that sideboarding card disadvantage (Pyrokinesis) is a mistake vs a discard deck. Do you need to SB in this matchup at all?

Game two. Loss
He played first and made me discard my lackey. I had mulled to five and kept a hand. After the loss of lackey he made me discard my Ringleader and my Warchief. I did put up a race but he ended with 11 life.

Game Three. Win.
Lackey came in, hit turn two, dropped Recruiter. Drew two Gempalm and a Siege. Game.
So, the game hinges on your card advantage cards eh?

What I learnt.
Zo Zu will have to go into the sideboard. Will kill everyone here. So many fetchlands. I disagree. Zozu matters IF your opponents are consistently winning at about 4 life. That doesn't seem to be the case from your writeup.
I need a better counter for combo. I felt like I had no answers. Yep, since they are our worst matchup. Show and Tell gets answered with AoD/CitR/ORing, while Storm is answered with CotV/Thalia/Thorn/Mindbreak Trap
Grave hate should have been played against the elves. (Thought of that now. Hindsight) What? why? Against elves you want creature removal. Pyrokinesis in was correct. Your mistake was taking out MD creature removal to bring it in.

What I am going to do.
Owner of the shop promised me four Root maze for next week. I will try it. Might be DOA but I think it is worth the trial. Root Maze seems bad. Try it out, but I suggest you test with proxies first rather than spending money on marginal cards that you are likely to cut as soon as you try them out.
Going to try Mainbord Pyro. I feel like it is helpful. Might not next week when trying Root Maze.
Chalice is too slow to stop combo here. Might play Mindbreak in its place. Chalice is good, even if by itself it's not enough. I like Thalia as well vs storm

Thoughts?


Tournament Report! Thanks for this. Good job.

Looking at your list, I see several comment worthy things:
1. I see you have shoehorned in Piledrivers, Thalia AND MWM, something I have been mulling over for a while. Will be interesting to see how that plays out.

2. Only 22 lands means you *could* be a little mana shy. Will watch for it.

3. Karakas over Rishadan Port.... Which is more needed I wonder?

4. Your SB *looks* random but really isn't. You have
3 storm hate
3 artifact hate
3 graveyard hate
3 creature hate
3 land hate

My SB currently is this
4 storm hate
4 graveyard hate
3 creature hate
3 artifact hate
1 SnT hate

But I have 4 ports MD, so I *think* that covers me slightly better?

R3 - Darrel - UW Blade

G1 I mull to 6, he keeps his 7. I get a large force with 2 Piledrivers on board and attack into his active SFM while he has Batterskull in hand. He elects to scoop, which I thought was a little early, but I'm not going to argue. He just must not have had the mana to make BS tricks happen.

I side out 3 Thalia and side in 2 KGrip and 1 Tin Street hooligan. I probably also swapped 2 Pyrokinesis for Stingscourger and Gempalm, so I could have more firepower to throw at SFM to keep BS offline. Pyrokinesis provides a lot of speed on the draw.

G2 Darrel keeps 7, I mull to 6. When Darrel has 2 basic lands he plays a Tundra and casts SFM for Batterskull. I Gempalm the SFM and Waste the Tundra. Darrel plays the Fetchland he had in hand last turn and curses his misplay as he shows me the Supreme Verdict he had stuck in hand.You relly need to keep your eyes open for those types of plays. Anytime you can take away your opponent's play AND their mana development it's like you've taken away their turn, and that's bound to mess with their gameplan.

I'd like to say that this round was one of those variance matches where it just seemed he never had what he needed when he needed it.

3-0
I think that siding in Pyrokinesus is a mistake here, as is siding out Thalia. I think that I would have gone + 2 Krosan, 1 TSH, - 3 MWM.

R4 - Nicholas - MUD

G1 I keep a slow control-ish hand with Vial and Gempalm. I go T1 Vial, Nicholas plays T1 City of Traitors into Lightning Greaves. I play a land and pass T2. He plays Metalworker, equips Greaves, reveals a hand of all artifacts, casts Kuldotha Forgemaster, equips Greaves, I scoop. Not really much you can do against the nuts.

I side out Thalias and bring in TSH, KGrips. I also shave some Gempalms for Pyrokinesis.

G2 we both mull to 6, but I have a super quick Lackey hand and the spot removal to put him behind so he scoops.

G3 gets hairy. He plays a Lodestone Golem, then another, but I'm somehow able to get Krenko in play, producing infinite blockers and generating the win after 3 or 4 turns.
4-0
Nice job. Would SGC have given you the win as well here, or did it have to be Krenko?

R5 - Logan (9th) - Shardless BUG

G1 Deathrite and Abrupt Decay stifle my board developement and Shardless Agent and Jace put me far behind.
I sideboard terribly. This is a match were I should have brought in 3 Blood Moon, 2 Relic, 1 RiP, 3 Pyrokinesis and I should have taken out 3 Thalia, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter, 4 Vials. I just should have gone for pure control, trying to lock him out of the game with Moon. Instead I just sided in Grips and TSH in place of Thalias!?! I didn't even bring in GY hate! Poor choice I think.

G2 I lost decisively.
4-1
I don't understand bringing in graveyard, land and creature hate in the same matchup. I think that strategically you are trying to attack from too many axes and diluting the core deck too much. Bringing in Pyrokinesis is probably the mistake here, and is Blood Moon even better than Thalia here? What is better colour screwing them, or taxing them? Wouldn't you SB the same way against them as you would against Jund?

R7 - Ethan - RUG Delver

G1 Ethan is on the play. He plays Volcanic T1, I Waste it. He plays Volcanic T2, I Waste it. He plays Fetch T3 and finally starts developing his board. I could have used those Wastes more for mana development than denial, but his opening made it seem like he was on a Sneak and Show list. I get beaten down by a Goyf and a Goose and lose G1.

I side in 2 Relic and 1 RiP and take out the Thalias. Why do you take out Thalia here? I would have thought that Piledriver is easily the least effective of your 2-drops. And doesnt CotV on 1 shut down most of their deck?

G2 I take a few Delver hits while Ethan tries to control my board, but eventually I land a hastey Krenko that puts Ethan too far behind.

G3 was my most satisfying game of the day. I opened on a hand with Vial, Relic, and dudes. He plays something T1, I go for the T1 Relic, thinking that I'd rather have Relic Dazed than Vial. Relic resolves. Ethan plays a Goose. I resolve Vial. He starts beating for 1. I start playing Goblins that Ethan burns out. I draw into another Relic and play it to keep his Goose small. he plays another Goose. I pop a relic and play a RiP. At this point all I need to do is start playing Goblins and I win. It's inevitable. I Gempalm a Delver or two along the way, but it doesn't really matter. I have a RiP with a Relic backup in play. Ethan clears the board with a Rough // Tumble. It doesn't even matter. I swing fro 2 a turn until I win. Inevitability. Very satisfying.
6-1

R8 - Dan - UW Blade

G1 I mull to 4 and lose.

I sided in 2 KGrip and TSH, taking out Thalias. Why do you take out Thalia here? I would have thought that it was pretty disruptive to them, since their deck is mostly spells. I agree with bringing in the artifact hate, but would have cut MWM instead.

G2 I mulled to 6, he kept 7. I T1 Lackey, it went plowing. I played T2 Vial, he played T2 CoP:Red ( in my mind he chortled, but I'm sure that's just me adding that in). I had a KGrip in hand at this time, so I wasn't quite worried about being locked out. T3 I ticked up Vial (Lackey in hand) and he played T3 Top, Mutavault. I Vialed in Lackey. He had a land and mutavault open. T4 I drew Gempalm. There have been many times in my life where I've burned out a Mutavault with a Gempalm after it's been activated to block a Lackey. Even though he had the CoP:R and only had to pay 1 to stop Lackey from getting through I figured the opportunity to kill Lackey would be too tempting. So I turned Lackey sideways. He thought for a moment and activated Vault. I Gempalmed it before blocks. He realized what Gempalm does. He tried tapping Mutavault for mana, but I reminded him that Vault has summoning sickness since it's now a creature and he just played it last turn. Vault hit the bin and Lackey connected. I cheated in a Ringleader, hitting 4 goblins off of it! The following turn I KGripped the CoP:R and the game was over soon thereafter.

G3 he got stuck on colored mana. He had five lands in play but 3 were Mutavault or Mishra's Factory. I got a hastey Krenko online and made 5 Goblins, then 10. I went for the Krenko line so that I could keep Ringleaders in hand for the inevitable Terminus. Dan spun Top at the end of my turn and went into the tank. He spun it again on his turn and went deep, deep into the tank. Had he been a combo deck I would have called a judge for slow play, but I figured he was only taking so much time because he was realizing that he couldn't win this one, so I wasn't going to rub it in. Dan couldn't find a sweeper and died to Goblin tokens.
7-1

R9 - Julio (5th) - RUG Cascade

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=55018

I was expecting an ID this round, but Julio couldn't guarantee himself a spot in the Top-8 apparently. So We had to
play it out.

G1 I actually kept a super loose hand. I believe it was 2 Lackeys, Thalia, and 4 Land. I kept it because it could topdeck like a champ and beat a combo deck. I was on the draw and just got crushed. Punishing Fire recurred with Grove. I couldn't draw a Wasteland to get back in it. My topdecks were weak.

I sided the way I thought I should have sided for the Shardless BUG MU R5. I tried to make my deck into a super grindy control deck. I brought in 3 Blood Moon, 2 Relic, 1 RiP, 3 Pyrokinesis and took out 3 Thalia, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter, 4 Vials. In hindsight, siding out Vial was probably wrong since he didn't run Abrupt Decay.
I think that Aether Vial and Sharpshooter should have stayed in against this opp. I don't understand how you can bring in Pyrokinesis if you want to be "a super grindy control deck" since Pyro is a card that trades card disadvantage for tempo. Is Blood Moon better than Thalia?

G2 was a mess. My opening 7 was landless so I mulled to 6. The 6 had Lackey and 2 lands and Goblins, so it was a fine Goblin hand, but it was cold to a T1 DRS from him. Well, he had the DRS. The play of the game was when he cast Bloodbraid Elf, cascades into Shardless Agent, cascades into DRS. 4 mana to cast 8 mana worth of creatures, 7 power, 6 toughness. Balls. Got dream-crushed real bad. Wound up in 10th place, but whateryagonnado?
7-2

I really only have 2 major insights into this tournament.

1) Thalia didn't exactly pull her weight in the MD, but she was never terrible either. There was never a situation where the game would have been remarkable different had she been a 2-drop goblin instead of Thalia. If an uber-powerful 2cc Goblin gets printed again, Thalia will probably be moved to the SB. Until then, I don't see and remarkably better cards out there for those slots.
I agree. Of course, you never played against storm either...

2) We need an answer to DRS decks that run Cascade creatures and/or Punishing Fire. Isn't Rest in Peace the answer to both DRS and the Punishing Fire engine? Did you see the monstrosity that Julio played R9? In order to win this MU we need to turn off DRS, turn off Punishing Fire, deal with Goyf, (and Goyf?) and maintain CA against Cascade critters. I think we should look to Matron/Sharpshooter/Ringleader/SGC/Krenko for our card advantage options Maybe I should have run 3 Relic, 1 RiP and only 2 Blood Moons and not sided in Pyrokinesis this MU... I'm not convinced that Blood Moon is better than Thalia. Time will tell. Blood Moon seems like a solid way to really shut them down, but it might be Win-More because GY hate might be enough. Obviously if you can land a Blood moon and remove the graveyards these DRS decks are completely locked out of the game since they run 0 basics. I need to playtest these MUs more in order to figure out what's really going to win this.
I think that the big problem I have with Blood Moon is that Rest in Peace is just a better card in most matchups , and it prevents you from casting white spells. Blood Moon gives them lots of excess useless colourless mana, and Thalia makes them pay excess colourless mana, so the two cards don't team up to disrupt the opponent well together.

I hope you enjoyed this report (even its oscillating between present and past tense). Thanks to all you Sourcers for the support during the tourney. It was greatly appreciated and I'll try to actually Top-8 when SCG comes back to Minneapolis.

-Jon
Great stuff. Please read all of my comments on card choices and sideboarding plans as suggestions rather than criticisms or instructions.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Grafdigger's Cage stops the Casacade mechanic (if I'm not mistaken).
Unfortunately Cage does not stop Cascade.


Exile cards from the top of your library until you exile a nonland card that costs less. You may cast it without paying its mana cost. Put the exiled cards on the bottom in a random order.
Cascade plays the card from exile and not from your library... Until Shardless Agent was printed, Ethersworn Canonist was the best card against cascade.


Comments on Merl's feedback (which was good btw):

Pithing Needle is an appropriate card to board in against UW Blade. If they play Stoneforge while you have Needle in hand then you can negate their card advantage. Stoneforge -> Jitte, Needle naming Jitte. Early Stoneforge -> Batterskull, Needle naming Stoneforge. Late Stoneforge -> Batterskull, Needle naming Batterskull.

Merl, I think you are looking at Blood Moon from the wrong angle. It's not land *hate*, it's a lock piece. If it resolves against most 3-color decks running 0-2 basics, good job you just won the game!

[Dice_Box]

Yeah, this matchup is not good for us. Why did you SB in CotV? Their key card costs 3 mana..... The typical sideboards for this matchup are Angel of Despair, Confusion in the Ranks, and Oblivion Ring. O-Ring is inferior to the others for this specific matchup, but it's castable vs other things like Energy Field so I run it in my SB.
His engine was in his Sideboard and he was wishing it into play. If I could have dropped a CotV with 2 tokens I would have locked him out.


Is this the matchup you want Pithing Needle for?
Named Jite. I also forgot to side in my art hate. That was a fail on my part. Pithing stopped Jite tho and he was on only 4 life (he was using tokens) when he one. My misplays lost me this game but I do not regret siding in Pithing. The look on his face when it hit the table was priceless.


I think that sideboarding card disadvantage (Pyrokinesis) is a mistake vs a discard deck. Do you need to SB in this matchup at all?
No I did not. He would make me discard but his win condition was critters. He had already seen my Gempalms and Stingers and had named them as a discard in the opening matchup. He knew I could have them. I wanted a card that I could hit him with that he did not know about and could not name.


So, the game hinges on your card advantage cards eh?
Aie. Useful that is. Love my deck.


What? why? Against elves you want creature removal. Pyrokinesis in was correct. Your mistake was taking out MD creature removal to bring it in.
His deck used Life from the Loam to win. He was using it to dredge mana and then return what he needed to play. Along with Deathrite Shaman he was quite fast. Some Grave hate would have slowed him quite a lot.


I have Confusion in the Ranks in the mail. Might try it next week if I have it. I wish Angel of Despair was called "Goblin of Despair" and did the same thing. I mean after all gobos break stuff yes?

Cheers and also thanks for the advice.

PS.
Will try for a better write up next week. I think right now my biggest flaw is my sideboarding. Sorry this one was messy.

[magicmerl]

Pithing Needle is an appropriate card to board in against UW Blade. If they play Stoneforge while you have Needle in hand then you can negate their card advantage. Stoneforge -> Jitte, Needle naming Jitte. Early Stoneforge -> Batterskull, Needle naming Stoneforge. Late Stoneforge -> Batterskull, Needle naming Batterskull.
Right, but those seem like pretty narrow answers to cards when the alternative is flat out killing the equipment. The only arguement I can see for Pithing Needle in that matchup is that your can needle Jace as well. It just seems way too narrow and situational to me.


Merl, I think you are looking at Blood Moon from the wrong angle. It's not land *hate*, it's a lock piece. If it resolves against most 3-color decks running 0-2 basics, good job you just won the game!
I think that it falls into the same camp as Wasteland, Port, Thalia and Thorn of Amethyst, in that it's goal is to strand cards in the opponents hand by preventing them from being able to cast spells. However, it's not nearly as good as Thalia/Port/Waste because it's easily countered, and it costs 3 mana (which is glacially slow). I guess I could maybe see it in a mono-R list, although it nerfs your splash. Even running Thalia, RIP and CotV feels too slow when the opposing combo deck is on the play.


Will try for a better write up next week. I think right now my biggest flaw is my sideboarding. Sorry this one was messy.
I think that it's worthwhile having a generalised discussion about different matchups and the way we want to attack them, since that directly informs our sideboard plans. In general I think that we have the following ways of attacking opposing decks:
1. graveyard hate (Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace, Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void)
2. mana hate (Thalia, Thorn of Amethyst, Blood Moon, Goblin Settlers, Chalice of the Void)
3. creature hate (Pyrokinesis, Dismember, Lightning Bolt, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter, Swords to Plowshares)
4. artifact hate (TSH, Scrapper, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, Oblivion Ring)
5. Show and Tell hate (Angel of Despair, Confusion in the Ranks, Oblivion Ring, REB)
As a general rule things that cost more than 2 mana that aren't goblins are bad, since they are easily countered by control decks.

So just listing the decks that Dice_Box and jrw1985 played against, what do people think are the types of cards that we want more of to help us in these matchups?
1. Aggro elves (creature hate, CotV)
2. Merfolk (creature hate)
3. Stoneblade (artifact hate, mana hate)
4. MUD (artifact hate)
5. Dredge (graveyard hate)
6. Zoo (graveyard hate)
7. Reanimator (graveyard hate, mana hate)
8. UW Control (mana hate)
9. ANT (mana hate)
10. BUG control (mana hate? graveyard hate?)
11. BUG cascade (mana hate? graveyard hate?)
12. RUG cascade (mana hate? graveyard hate?)
13. RUG delver (mana hate? graveyard hate?)
14. Show and Tell (SnT hate, if any)
15. Discard (is this a deck?)

So what are the good cards vs BUG and RUG variants? What are the good cards vs Show and Tell and how many slots should we devote to that matchup?

[Ace/Homebrew]

It just seems way too narrow and situational to me.
Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary, Helm of Obedience, Sensei's Divining Top, Maze of Ith, Vedalken Shackles, Scavenging Ooze, Grim Lavamancer, Engineered Explosives, Goblin Charbelcher, Pernicious Deed, Putrid Imp, Candelabra of Tawnos, Goblin Welder, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Wirewood Symbiote, Arcbound Ravager, ALL equipment, and ALL planeswalkers.

The beauty of the card is its versatility. If you name Top against Miracles, they will have a tough time dealing with that. If they tap out for Deed or Explosives and you play Needle, you've cancelled out their turn for 1 mana.
It's not always great to board in, if it was it'd see play in the main deck. But it is hardly narrow.


I guess I could maybe see it in a mono-R list, although it nerfs your splash.
Think about what you wrote there. :tongue:

Have you ever tried to win through a Humility? Blood Moon is like that for 3-color decks running 0-2 basics.

[magicmerl]

Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary, Helm of Obedience, Sensei's Divining Top, Maze of Ith, Vedalken Shackles, Scavenging Ooze, Grim Lavamancer, Engineered Explosives, Goblin Charbelcher, Pernicious Deed, Putrid Imp, Candelabra of Tawnos, Goblin Welder, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Wirewood Symbiote, Arcbound Ravager, ALL equipment, and ALL planeswalkers.

The beauty of the card is its versatility. If you name Top against Miracles, they will have a tough time dealing with that. If they tap out for Deed or Explosives and you play Needle, you've cancelled out their turn for 1 mana.
It's not always great to board in, if it was it'd see play in the main deck. But it is hardly narrow.
Is the reason we fear Deathrite Shaman because of the activated ability? I thought it was because it could block a T1 lackey when we're on the play. Pithing Needle doesn't solve the problem of Deathrite Shaman for us. It turns a their good card into a their weak card, while also costing us a card.

Similarly, is the reason we fear Stoneforge Mystic because of the activated ability? The ability is more relevant than DRS, but it still tutors for a bomb equipment, and still blocks etc.

Going through the list, it's clear you understand what an activated ability is. I think my previous point still stands, which was that when Pithing Needle is good, I'd rather have artifact kill instead to just get rid of the offending artifact.


Think about what you wrote there. :tongue:

Have you ever tried to win through a Humility? Blood Moon is like that for 3-color decks running 0-2 basics.
You might have missed it, but the person I was responding to was siding in Blood Moon in a goblins build that splashed both white and green, and also siding in Rest in Peace at the same time. I was saying that Blood Moon was particularly bad in a build splashing non-red cards.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Really? You quoted me directly before a paragraph where you talked about the card I was defending.

And for the record with the sideboard options he had, Dice correctly brought Pithing Needle in against Stoneblade.

[magicmerl]

Really? You quoted me directly before a paragraph where you talked about the card I was defending.
The list on this page which had Blood Moon was also splashing green and white. What I tried to say in an albiet cumbersome manner, is that I think that Blood moon is best in a mono-coloured build (if it's good at all), and less good in a build that is splashing. I hope that clears up the confusion?

And for the record with the sideboard options he had, Dice correctly brought Pithing Needle in against Stoneblade.
You are probably right. Pithing Needle is best vs Stoneforge and Top decks, and he only had a single scrapper in the SB. Does that mean that it's good enough to displace other SB options and make the 75? I don't know. Not for me.

[orcanmail]

[QUOTE=magicmerl;

Is it worth talking about the two different strategic roles goblins can occupy? i.e. As a midrange deck feasting on aggro decks (where removal spells are great in the flex slots) and as a tempo (or aggro-control) deck using Ports and Thalias to disrupt the opponent while basically any crappy little goblin will do as a win condition. That would explain to me some of the crosstalk that there's been about removal spells vs Thalia/ports, when the two camps are trying to optimise two different builds that feast on different parts of the metagame. Does that make sense?[/QUOTE]

Mono Red could also opt for a hybrid between the two as matrons give us flexibility. You could run a warchief / chieftain splt, MWM / WI split, run wastelands and vials with or without ports. Could run Krenko with SGC.
We don't have to be either aggro or aggro control, but either or both as the cards flip up and the need arises with use of matrons and ringleaders. We are flexible.

[jrw1985]

First: Why did you side out Thalia against RUG and leave Sharpshooter in the MD? I'd personally kick 1 Sharpy + 2 Lackeys to bring in the GYH.


Thalia needs to come out against Rug because all she does in make Bolt cost R1, and the trade-off to running her is that she opens your manabase to worse Wasteland disruption and Stifle. Thalia also cannot trade with Goose or Goyf and you can't use her in multiples. These are problems when you need to win through CA.

Sharpshooter is not great against Rug, but it can kill Goyfs and Delvers on occasion. But no means an I saying Shooter is great though. RiP and Relic are great here. Shooter is just mediocre at best.

[jrw1985]

To bad you didn't get there! But thanks for the report and good work!

Have some consideratios regarding Thalia:
1 - You side them out against Bug Control for grave hate. If it was me, I'd side Shooter, Sting, and a Gempalm, and maybe even more for Blood Moons. Thalia looks quite good against a deck that have that few creatures.
2 - You side them out against Canadian. I'd take out Shooter, a Gempalm, and a Piledriver. Again, I think Thalia is quite good on the MU, making they play the fair game of 1 spell a turn almost, while you don't have that restriction. When they can't cast a dude + Bolt + Daze in a turn, they fall behind pretty fast. Why did you take them out?

1. I never expect to beat control decks through mana denial. I try to overwhelm them with CA and disrupt their gameplan. Thalia doesn't really help in either of those areas.
2. See previous post.

[jrw1985]

1. Only 22 lands means you *could* be a little mana shy. Will watch for it.

2. Karakas over Rishadan Port.... Which is more needed I wonder?

3. Nice job. Would SGC have given you the win as well here, or did it have to be Krenko?

4. I don't understand bringing in graveyard, land and creature hate in the same matchup. I think that strategically you are trying to attack from too many axes and diluting the core deck too much. Bringing in Pyrokinesis is probably the mistake here, and is Blood Moon even better than Thalia here? What is better colour screwing them, or taxing them? Wouldn't you SB the same way against them as you would against Jund?

5. I think that Aether Vial and Sharpshooter should have stayed in against this opp. I don't understand how you can bring in Pyrokinesis if you want to be "a super grindy control deck" since Pyro is a card that trades card disadvantage for tempo. Is Blood Moon better than Thalia?

6. I think that the big problem I have with Blood Moon is that Rest in Peace is just a better card in most matchups , and it prevents you from casting white spells. Blood Moon gives them lots of excess useless colourless mana, and Thalia makes them pay excess colourless mana, so the two cards don't team up to disrupt the opponent well together.



1. I've been running 22 lands for years now. It's a good number.
2. I've grown cold on Port. Running 4 Port lists has left me unable to play my hand too many times. It's pretty lousy when you can't cycle a gempalm because all your lands are Ports and Caverns. I played the Teitze list at a weekly last week and had 2 games in 4 rounds lost because of mana issues due to Port. Not cool. Karakas, on the other hand, is a random out to Grizz and Emmy (which ARE real players in the format) and it lets you cast Thalia/RiP. So there are many MUs where the legend bounce ability of Karakas might not be relevant, but the W mana it produces is still relevant.
3. SGC might have given me the W against MUD as well if I had enough R mana and bodies to chump the Lodestone Golems AND activate SGC, but I don't think I did when Krenko came down. Either way, Krenko is a house against MUD decks.
4. A surefire way to beat decks with DRS and cascaders is to either remove their DRS or graveyard and lock them out behind Blood Moon. Maybe running Pyrokinesis was wrong, but Pyro is also great at killing x/2 or less creatures, which that deck had in spades. I'm sure there's a better way to approach this MU, and I want to find out what that is, so I just need to do some more playtesting.
5. Blood Moon and Thalia are apples and oranges to me. Blood Moon is a lock piece to be used against Grindy Decks. Thalia is a disruption piece against fast Combo decks. I can't think of any MU where I would want both in my 60.
6. RiP is a better card and has more applications, for certain, but it won't stop a deck running Bloodbraid and Shardless. But maybe Goblins can generate enough CA on its own to just outlast the x/2 beats. So long as RiP is in play the Goyfs and PFs are essentially shut down. One benefit of BM though is that it shuts off Abrupt Decay, so they can't answer your GY hate.

[Avatara]

4. A surefire way to beat decks with DRS and cascaders is to either remove their DRS or graveyard and lock them out behind Blood Moon. Maybe running Pyrokinesis was wrong, but Pyro is also great at killing x/2 or less creatures, which that deck had in spades. I'm sure there's a better way to approach this MU, and I want to find out what that is, so I just need to do some more playtesting.Keep in mind that you aren't truly two-for-two-ing them. They aren't playing the cascaded from their hand, Pyrokinesis on the other hand will cost two cards out of yours. Despite killing two of their creatures; you are losing card advantage in your hand.

[magicmerl]

Mono Red could also opt for a hybrid between the two as matrons give us flexibility. You could run a warchief / chieftain splt, MWM / WI split, run wastelands and vials with or without ports. Could run Krenko with SGC.
We don't have to be either aggro or aggro control, but either or both as the cards flip up and the need arises with use of matrons and ringleaders. We are flexible.
Actually, I think that the WI build is a third variant (aggro) and I don't think it's where we want to be. I think that tempo > midrange > aggro.


1. I've been running 22 lands for years now. It's a good number.
Fair enough. I think that in a portless build 22 land is fine.

2. I've grown cold on Port. Running 4 Port lists has left me unable to play my hand too many times. It's pretty lousy when you can't cycle a gempalm because all your lands are Ports and Caverns. I played the Teitze list at a weekly last week and had 2 games in 4 rounds lost because of mana issues due to Port. Not cool. Karakas, on the other hand, is a random out to Grizz and Emmy (which ARE real players in the format) and it lets you cast Thalia/RiP. So there are many MUs where the legend bounce ability of Karakas might not be relevant, but the W mana it produces is still relevant.
I totally hear you. I think it depends on precisely what you want. Port *does* make you want to minimise your RR goblins like WI and Chieftain, while not running it gives you Karakas basically for free and also makes the white splash mana better.

3. SGC might have given me the W against MUD as well if I had enough R mana and bodies to chump the Lodestone Golems AND activate SGC, but I don't think I did when Krenko came down. Either way, Krenko is a house against MUD decks.
Fair enough. I think there's a tradeoff there where the ability to go infinite with krenko and save him from removal with karakas needs to be balanced off against SGC being a better lackey target, counting as a form of removal, able to prevent Jitte/Batterskull damage, be more hardened against removal, and swing for more damage. This might be another case where splashing W pulls you more towards Krenko. Just thinking about fighting off cascading 2/2s, SGC seems better there...

4. A surefire way to beat decks with DRS and cascaders is to either remove their DRS or graveyard and lock them out behind Blood Moon. Maybe running Pyrokinesis was wrong, but Pyro is also great at killing x/2 or less creatures, which that deck had in spades. I'm sure there's a better way to approach this MU, and I want to find out what that is, so I just need to do some more playtesting.
My initial feeling is that we want to attack their GY, then just out-card advantage them. So weak MD cards are Stingscourger, Lackey and Piledriver, while goodies are basically everything costing more than 2 mana. Aether Vial plays really well with Ports here, since you can use Port to stall the game while Vial ticks up to your business spells.

5. Blood Moon and Thalia are apples and oranges to me. Blood Moon is a lock piece to be used against Grindy Decks. Thalia is a disruption piece against fast Combo decks. I can't think of any MU where I would want both in my 60.
Yeah, I agree. They definitely lack synergy together. I guess I've spent a lot of time thinking about and teseting Thalia, so my instinct is to try and shove her in against any deck with more spells than us.

6. RiP is a better card and has more applications, for certain, but it won't stop a deck running Bloodbraid and Shardless. But maybe Goblins can generate enough CA on its own to just outlast the x/2 beats. So long as RiP is in play the Goyfs and PFs are essentially shut down. One benefit of BM though is that it shuts off Abrupt Decay, so they can't answer your GY hate.
I think that the BGx decks attack from multiple angles and there's no one answer for them. One front is to attack their graveyard, and the other is to fight their creatures. One option to fight the cascade mechanic is Rule of Law. I agree on more testing.




Keep in mind that you aren't truly two-for-two-ing them. They aren't playing the cascaded from their hand, Pyrokinesis on the other hand will cost two cards out of yours. Despite killing two of their creatures; you are losing card advantage in your hand.
Well, the horse has already bolted once they have cascaded into two 2/2s. They've got their card advantage and you have to work with what's in play. You're just doing the best you can to not be overwhelmed by them. I think it's fair to characterise using Pyrokinesis as a 2-for-2 trade, even if they are still up a card because cascading gave them a free 2-for-1. Which means that Pyro can't really be considered a strategic trump in the matchup...

[Avatara]

Well, the horse has already bolted once they have cascaded into two 2/2s. They've got their card advantage and you have to work with what's in play. You're just doing the best you can to not be overwhelmed by them. I think it's fair to characterise using Pyrokinesis as a 2-for-2 trade, even if they are still up a card because cascading gave them a free 2-for-1. Which means that Pyro can't really be considered a strategic trump in the matchup...Perish destroys every creature they play: Shardless Agent, Bloodbraid Elf, Deathrite Shaman and Tarmogoyf.

[magicmerl]

Perish destroys every creature they play: Shardless Agent, Bloodbraid Elf, Deathrite Shaman and Tarmogoyf.
What sort of role do you think that goblins should pursue in the matchup vs BGx cascade?

Given an unreasonably large sideboard, what would your post-SB version of goblins look like?

[Bichon_Blitz]

What sort of role do you think that goblins should pursue in the matchup vs BGx cascade?

Given an unreasonably large sideboard, what would your post-SB version of goblins look like?

I assume you mean the 4 color cascade (BUGR) with agent and bloodbraid. I've only played it a handful of times, but it's not favorable but not auto-loss. The times I've played it, ringleader is always huge. You can usually chump for days, save removal for a delver perhaps. This is a matchup were, again I hate to beat deadhorses, but Krenko can pull it out.

For SB, just looking at mine, I might bring in 2 chalices, since technically the cascade effect is still a cast. 1-2 RiP for goyf. I'd prob reluctantly bring in 1 kinesis that takes care of DRS, Agent, and Elf as blockers, advancing our clock. I feel like once they amass enough critters (4-5) on board it gets hairy for us.

[magicmerl]

I assume you mean the 4 color cascade (BUGR) with agent and bloodbraid. I've only played it a handful of times, but it's not favorable but not auto-loss. The times I've played it, ringleader is always huge. You can usually chump for days, save removal for a delver perhaps.
Yeah. I mean, I don't generally think that small opposing creatures are a big deal.


This is a matchup were, again I hate to beat deadhorses, but Krenko can pull it out.
Yeah, Krenko still seems really good in certain situations. I have a bunch of slots in my deck that I'm unsure about the final composition of:
xth Port vs Karakas
MWM vs Thalia (as a 3 of)
2nd SGC vs Krenko

[Bichon_Blitz]

Yeah. I mean, I don't generally think that small opposing creatures are a big deal.

I don't play Cascade, just gobs, and got MUD built. Shoulda phrased that better, but yeah MWM is a champ against any goyf deck.



Yeah, Krenko still seems really good in certain situations. I have a bunch of slots in my deck that I'm unsure about the final composition of:
xth Port vs Karakas
MWM vs Thalia (as a 3 of)
2nd SGC vs Krenko

I don't run port anymore and was about to buy karakas before they skyrocketed, but now it's out of the question. even then I'd run 2 karakas, maybe 1. It seems like it's only good against SnT or Grizz decks like tinfins/reanimator. I've never used Thalia, and I run white splash, no green. I'd consider her SB, at least my meta. Once you go 3x Marshall, you never go back. I run 1x SGC and 2x Krenko, the reason being against a lot of other fair decks, krenko late game is your best/better out imo, overcoming batterskull and goyf litters. Having them find an answer to the first krenko, thinking they're in the clear, only to watch you drop another is awesome. They expect us to run just one, so the second one in some matchups is a curveball for them. Anytime someone says "Yeah but Krenko is really just 'win-more'", I have to face-palm.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Hey GoboLord,

I'd like to go more into the MWM vs WI discussion if you don't mind. Simply because I think it's one of the tougher card choices to make and I do like good, in depth arguments about it.


About the MWM vs WI analysis: (Reference (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=716564&viewfull=1#post716564))
I think you have analyzed Winstigator well, but you didn't take your time to think about what MWM does for the deck. Mogg War marshal does several things that are at the heart of what VIal Goblins are about:
* he costs 1R and therefore synergistic with Goblin Warchief
* he provides up to 3 Goblins, which is relevant for several thing, namely...
* he can timewalk your opponent (what you called "slows down")
* he provides sustained pumps for Piledriver and Gempalm Incinerator (both of which are at the very heart of a Goblin strategy)
* he provides board advantage

1 - True. That's a point I forgot about WI, RR cost is kind of high.
2 - When looking at him as a turn 2 drop, dragon fodder can do roughly the same (but can't be used with vial and ringleader).
3 - Imho dragon fodder with build in healing salve is a better comparison here. I think time walk is a little exaggerated since your opponent can still drop another land and play cards.
4 - It's true, more goblins has synergies with piledriver and gempalm, but so has dragon fodder
5- Board advantage in creature numbers: yes. But in power? I don't think 2 1/1 goblins really are that threatening to call it board advantage.


The problem that I have with Winstigator is that he can be ignored more easily than MWM.

I actually think the exact opposite. An opponent can easily ignore 2 1/1 goblins while the Instigator can't be ignored. If he really is, he connects and does his WInstigator thing.


Although I know that people are quick to state that they would trade WI for SFM or DRS at any time this is simply not always the case. By attacking WI into to said Squires you will not only give your opponent the choice to block it or not.

I think not attacking in such a case is often suboptimal play (so that argument can't really count imho). And sure your opponent can choose whether or not to block with his squire, but often there is not really a choice since he should fear what you can drop if he connects.


Casting a single removal is enough to get rid of WI and then you have opened up yourself to a counter attack.

Sure, if he StoPs MWM you still have a 1/1 goblin, but honestly I didn't see that happen often because those are not that threatening. I saw my opponents StoPing more piledrivers and warchiefs instead (worse imho).


MWM in comparison ensures that your opponent can't counterattack easily. Even in the face of 2 critters (say: 2 Tarmogoyfs) you can easily go for an all-in attack, then drop MWM and pass and you will likely not receive any damage next turn.

This is probably a very good example to show why I think Instigator is stronger. If you have a haste lord in play (I like to play an extra chieftain for 5) the Instigator can drop those 2 goblins when connecting. Plus: Stingscourger is a imho more versatile alternative in that scenario.

To add another scenario: I usually find myself in positions attacking with warchief, piledriver and some other goblins facing a 2/x blocker. I still want to attack because I got the board advantage. Now MWM adds an additional piledriver trigger while WI adds to the hard choice of which goblin to block. Shall I block the piledriver or eat 7/9 extra damage? Shall I block warchief to hinder more cheap hasty goblins? Or shall I block WInstigator to not suffer from matron+SGC? This really puts your opponent to a dilemma by adding another goblin that needs to be blocked.


Well I could go on like this, but I think you get the idea. Essentially neither WI nor MWM is a weak card per se, they simply support different strategies. I have played both cards (in different lists of course) and I'm equally fulfilled with them.

I think WI shines in more situations (then pointed out in the primer) and is generally a better card choice, if your mana base supports him. MWM must have some value since many lists with good results played him (I don't want to ignore the hard facts!). I did set up some test games with a buddy, every time MWM vs WI came up we "saved" the game and looked at the different outcomes. WI was better in my testings against merfolk, NoGoyf and Canadian thresh (~2 years ago, probably not enough empirical data).

Like I said, my testing and theory provided me with the conclusion of WI>MWM. I do not wish to scold anyone who does not and tournament results often list MWM, I just wanted to re-open the discussion and provide some theory to encourage testing him again and to maybe help people improve their lists.

Regards,

Spock

[Avatara]

I took Max Tietze's list and switched out the 3x MWM for 3x Thalia since there is a lot of combo in my meta game. After a few test games I took out one Rishadan Port and put in a Karakas, because I saw someone post this on this forum. Despite never using the Karakas to bounce a legend I did use it to cast Thalia on occasion. Two white sources feels a lot more solid if you run Thalia in the main. Next I replaced another Port with a Pendelhaven. In the past I only theorized about this card.. and it got dismissed by some players on this forum. However I did have a good experience with it: my first turn Lackey killed a Dark Confidant and a Deathrite Shaman once, helped me cast TSH once and to my surprise protected some of my goblins against Punishing Fire (this never came to mind before I saw it play out). In the games that I played I found Pendelhaven to be more useful than Karakas, but that was prolly because I didn't get a chance to utilize the bounce ability. I didn't miss the two ports at all; the two lands helped me fix my mana on occasion while also proving meaningful utility (or the possibly of that).

[magicmerl]

Spock, I think that you have sold MWM short. Gobo has done a pretty good job of listing some of MWM's more salient points, but suffice it to say that I think it can be oversimplified down to this

Warren Instigator Pros
+ acts as extra lackeys (explosive mana acceleration)
+ great when attacking
Cons
- RR is rough (so it pushes you to cut Ports, even in MonoR)

MWM Pros
+ great chump blocker
+ great synergy with Warchief, Piledriver, Gempalm, Prospector, Sharpshooter and Siegegang (almost the entire deck....)
Cons
- 1/1s make for pitiful attackers
- Echo

So if you see goblins as an aggro deck then I could see wanting Winstigator more. If you see it as a midrange deck that *doesn't* depend on attacking every turn, then MWM is better. (And if you see the deck as aggro-control, then Thalia is better....)


I took Max Tietze's list and switched out the 3x MWM for 3x Thalia since there is a lot of combo in my meta game. After a few test games I took out one Rishadan Port and put in a Karakas, because I saw someone post this on this forum. Despite never using the Karakas to bounce a legend I did use it to cast Thalia on occasion. Two white sources feels a lot more solid if you run Thalia in the main. Next I replaced another Port with a Pendelhaven. In the past I only theorized about this card.. and it got dismissed by some players on this forum. However I did have a good experience with it: my first turn Lackey killed a Dark Confidant and a Deathrite Shaman once, helped me cast TSH once and to my surprise protected some of my goblins against Punishing Fire (this never came to mind before I saw it play out). In the games that I played I found Pendelhaven to be more useful than Karakas, but that was prolly because I didn't get a chance to utilize the bounce ability. I didn't miss the two ports at all; the two lands helped me fix my mana on occasion while also proving meaningful utility (or the possibly of that).
Interesting. This comes down to how many white sources we need to run for cards.

I personally try to have 10 white sources minimum. If you count Port/Karakas/Pendelhaven as all being 'colourless' lands in that they don't provide T1 red for lackey, then here's how the manabase plays out:
4 Cavern of Souls (doesn't count for things like Gempalm or RIP)
4 Wasteland
4 Ports/Karakas/Pendelhaven
6 fetchlands
2 Mountain
2 Plateau
1 Taiga

So that list gives you 8 white sources in plateau, plus 1 for Karakas, and 4 for Thalia. So enough for Thalia (Particularly with Aether Vial), not *quite* enough for RIP.

Needs more thought. Thanks for making this point.

[trollking21]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=504462
Pyrewild Shaman
Mana cost 2R

Creature - Goblin Shaman
Bloodrush — , Discard Pyrewild Shaman: Target attacking creature gets +3/+1 until end of turn.
Whenever one or more creatures you control deal combat damage to a player, if Pyrewild Shaman is in your graveyard, you may pay . If you do, return Pyrewild Shaman to your hand.
3/1 power and toughness

I don't think he's good enough but I figure I mention him since he says goblin

[kombatkiwi]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=504462
Pyrewild Shaman
Mana cost 2R

Creature - Goblin Shaman
Bloodrush — , Discard Pyrewild Shaman: Target attacking creature gets +3/+1 until end of turn.
Whenever one or more creatures you control deal combat damage to a player, if Pyrewild Shaman is in your graveyard, you may pay . If you do, return Pyrewild Shaman to your hand.
3/1 power and toughness

I don't think he's good enough but I figure I mention him since he says goblin

The bloodrush cost is 1R and to return it to hand costs 3
I don't think it's playable either
I guess the fact that you can play it to trade with X/3s and then have it come back later if you ping them with a MWM token or something could be useful, if the matchup is so grindy and creature based.

[Asgar]

Hi Guys :)
Some Landsman of me from Hannover made up a Tempo Deck Called "die Burg" (aka Rug with Black) and Discovered a Sideboard-tech, that i think can be used in our Deck as compeditor against pyrokinesis and Perish:

Fire Convenant
1BR
Instant

As an additional cost to cast Fire Covenant, pay X life.
Fire Covenant deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures.

[superspaceshooter]

Pyrewild Shaman is an excellent creature to have access to in a Goblins deck. In a basic scenario, you have 3 tiny Goblins, and can swing freely into a larger creature. With the Bloodrush, you can trade your Goblin up (or not have it die at all), and then have your other chump attackers that made it through bring him back to your hand. He's a decent body on his own in the spirit of Tin Street Hooligan (who I imagine is mostly a 2/1 for 2 in most matchups, but that's fine.) He's a bit mana intensive, yes, but at least his colored requirements are at a bare minimum for those Goblins decks that enjoy using as many colorless sources as possible. The keyword "Trample" is missing from this guy to really push Lackeys through Deathrite Shamans/Stoneforge Mystics/etc, where this might have become a 4-of down the road. This is far better than Legion Loyalist in my honest opinion, who has already seen some play.

[Dice_Box]

Only reason I see to run Pyrewild is if you run WInstergator and you have connected. Otherwise that space would be better used with something like a Lightning bolt.

[Bichon_Blitz]

Pyrewild is just plain bad in legacy, for so many reasons. First of all, he's only playable late game which I don't think gobs wants to do in a lot of matchups. Deathrite eats him. He ties up our already short mana. I can't think of a single card to cut in place of him. I'd rather play Squee. He doesn't fit what legacy gobs wants to do, in short.

On MWM, he increases our board. He blocks really well. His echo is sick if you have sharpshooter out or v. Dredge. If you play him correctly, he's a goodie. He fits with warchief. The guy does a lot of things and he fits the 2 cc slot well. I feel that Gobs is the aggro deck for the format but also can grind out games if it has to via card advantage and board position, and he plays into both gameplans.

[superspaceshooter]

Only reason I see to run Pyrewild is if you run WInstergator and you have connected. Otherwise that space would be better used with something like a Lightning bolt.

Anything with the subtype "Goblin" is infinitely better than a card without it in this deck. You cannot compare this to a non-Goblin card.

[superspaceshooter]

Pyrewild is just plain bad in legacy, for so many reasons. First of all, he's only playable late game which I don't think gobs wants to do in a lot of matchups. Deathrite eats him. He ties up our already short mana. I can't think of a single card to cut in place of him. I'd rather play Squee. He doesn't fit what legacy gobs wants to do, in short.

On MWM, he increases our board. He blocks really well. His echo is sick if you have sharpshooter out or v. Dredge. If you play him correctly, he's a goodie. He fits with warchief. The guy does a lot of things and he fits the 2 cc slot well. I feel that Gobs is the aggro deck for the format but also can grind out games if it has to via card advantage and board position, and he plays into both gameplans.

Every Goblin in this deck is "bad in Legacy". What makes the deck tick is how they come together to pull off victory in the face of larger and more impressive things.

I agree that Mogg War Marshal is insane. I play 4 of him and 0 Goblin Piledriver for a reason.

[GoboLord]

First of all, please watch out for oversimplifications:

Anything with the subtype "Goblin" is infinitely better than a card without it in this deck. You cannot compare this to a non-Goblin card.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ds/91.jpg

Second,
What Bichon_Blitz says is true: We have tried other "combat trick"-cards like Boros Charm or Basilisk Collar before and it always came down to the conclusion that a REAL removal spell (like those that send creatures to the graveyard) are on whole different level than cards that enable combat tricks. So my suggestion is: dont play that guy - his ability is awful and costs way too much mana.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141473&d=1366257735

I already put it onto the list of bad cardchoices.

[superspaceshooter]

Why would you put a card on a list of bad choices when it will routinely make decklists?

Any sort of spell-like effect with the term "Goblin" in its subtype automatically should garner attention in a deck with Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader, cards that are most important to the deck. AEther Vial is actually decent with this guy, allowing out-of-nowhere "trades" that turn into profits.

If this guy gave trample, he'd be an auto 4-of in many lists. Without, he's still worth looking into...and who knows? Maybe some people will elect to run 4 anyways.

[FoxBlade]

Why would you put a card on a list of bad choices when it will routinely make decklists?

How do you know that it will? Even if it does, how do you know that those decks will produce results?

I don't know that it will be bad, but it certainly doesn't look very good. It looks pretty terrible (the discard looks like an awful trade off for +3/+1 and his cost of 3 for playing or returning him is pretty expensive).



Any sort of spell-like effect with the term "Goblin" in its subtype automatically should garner attention in a deck with Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader, cards that are most important to the deck. AEther Vial is actually decent with this guy, allowing out-of-nowhere "trades" that turn into profits.

Just because it has the term "Goblin" in its subtype doesn't mean is should automatically garner attention. There are other factors to consider if a card is worth having. There are also cards without "goblin" in its subtype that should be considered (and have) because there are other factors to consider if a card is worth having.

For example, what strategy are you trying to achieve with your build? Does the card have synergy with the rest of the deck? What does the meta-game look like? Is the card worth the resources you have to pay for it? What are the pros and cons of the card? Is the card good enough to make room in my 75 for, and if so what card(s) does it replace? etc.



If this guy gave trample, he'd be an auto 4-of in many lists. Without, he's still worth looking into...and who knows? Maybe some people will elect to run 4 anyways.

He doesn't have trample though. I don't think he's worth looking into, but if you want to look into him and test him, I'm not opposed to that. You could share your results and if you have some positive results with him you can post them here and make your case. Who knows, you might change my mind.

However until you do, I don't think he's worth considering.

[superspaceshooter]

Do we have some non-Goblin lovers in here? I thought this was a forum for enhancing the prospects of the Goblin Archetype? If we wish to propel the Goblins deck that we all know and love to heights unseen, we must first acknowledge every possibility.

Pyrewild Shaman isn't some pipe dream like Legion Loyalist. I start every list with 1 Pyrewild Shaman, because he does exactly the two things Goblins wants to do: Attack and gain Card Advantage. Some say he's a mana hog...he's not! He's a pump spell at 2-mana. When you have the resources available (which will happen a great percentage of the games), you will have an unstoppable combat engine. Remember that the Goblin you pump doesn't necessarily have to deal damage to trigger this guy's ability. In the late game, every typical lackluster topdeck such as Goblin Lackey suddenly becomes a threat.

This effect doesn't even exist in the real world. To make matters worse for your opponent, he's a Goblin. We all know why this is incredible in this deck (though comparisons to non-Goblins above such as Basilisk Collar and Lightning Bolt are unnerving, to say the least.)

I understand that everyone is jumping on the "unplayable" bandwagon just because of how adamant I am about Pyrewild Shaman. That does seem like a fairly poor reason, but I will stick to my guns because I want all of us in the Goblins community to win!

[FoxBlade]

Do we have some non-Goblin lovers in here? I thought this was a forum for enhancing the prospects of the Goblin Archetype? If we wish to propel the Goblins deck that we all know and love to heights unseen, we must first acknowledge every possibility.

Just because I disagree with your premise doesn't mean that I don't like goblins or that I'm uninterested in enhancing the deck. I can look at a card and consider it, but I'm thinking that what you and I are talking about is whether or not we should seriously consider a card.



Pyrewild Shaman isn't some pipe dream like Legion Loyalist. I start every list with 1 Pyrewild Shaman, because he does exactly the two things Goblins wants to do: Attack and gain Card Advantage. Some say he's a mana hog...he's not! He's a pump spell at 2-mana. When you have the resources available (which will happen a great percentage of the games), you will have an unstoppable combat engine. Remember that the Goblin you pump doesn't necessarily have to deal damage to trigger this guy's ability. In the late game, every typical lackluster topdeck such as Goblin Lackey suddenly becomes a threat.

Yes, but his ability is dependent on having another creature in play and 3 mana to recur is incredibly expensive (which for the mana cost doesn't make the CA very good, especially when the CA is just him again).

I think you are being biased here because you love your pet-card. Do you have any tournament results with him?

[superspaceshooter]

Pyrewild Shaman is obviously playable. This reminds me of a time when people bemoaned the usage of Tarmogoyf. There's just no getting through to people.

And if I have any pet card, it's Goblin Piledriver. I love that card. It's one of my favorites. He's played handsomely as a 3-4 of in many lists. I don't play him anymore. I don't believe in pet cards. I believe in power. Pyrewild Shaman is pure power.

[ScatmanX]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141473&d=1366257735
Hm... I'm going to test it... And not a 1off, but will start at 3. I want him on my oppener. Best case scenario you have T1 Lackey, and they drop a blocker. This will be a removal spell. (Christmas dreamland you connect Instigator with it, then you deal 8 dmg! =D)
Of course that it it gave Trample it would be awesome. If it came back by paying 2; if it costed 2; if it was damage, not combat damage; etc, but it is not.
Anyways, will proxy it up and text tomorrow already. (Still think Rancor is better...)

Edit: almost forgot: on MWM / Instigator debate. I don't think it is worth discussing those cards advantages or whatnots, but rather discuss builds, and thir advantages.

[jrw1985]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141473&d=1366257735

Goddammit this guy is on the cusp of being playable. He obviously needs to be compared to Gempalm Incinerator.

How are they similar?

They're both 2R.
Both Goblins.
Both need 1R to be activated and cannot use Caver of Souls mana to activate.
Both replace themselves.
Both need Goblins on the field in order to kill opposing creatures.
Both are terrible with Vial opening hands.

How are they different?

Gempalm is 2/1 , Pyrewild Shaman is 3/1
GP replaces itself with a Cycle as part of its activation, PS needs an unblocked creature +3 mana to replace itself After the initial 1R to activate. So that's 5 mana + and unblocked creature v 1R. Gempalm is obviously much more efficient.
PS can kill a DRS T2 off of Lackey and Lackey lives. GP can do the same but Lackey dies.
GP can kill an early Goyf more easily than Gempalm.
Gempalm can kill big critters.
Gempalm can target any creature, any time. PS is just a combat trick that only works when you're attacking, not when you're blocking. PS isn't really spot removal.
Because PS is so expensive and conditional to re-use it is generally a 1:1 or a 1:2 card, whereas Gempalm is an 0:1 or 1:1 since it replaces itself immediately.

Generally speaking, Gempalm seems like the far superior card. But I still want to hear some testing on PS.

[Dice_Box]

The issue I see is that the only card it could really replace in a build would be Gem. I just do not think that taking out Gem is a fair trade. If you take out anything else you're replacing a body with basically an instant. I see the use for the card, I just think that the slot has better uses.

I am freely going to admit tho, against Zoo, I would take this guy over Gempalm in my opening hand. Gem is not going to do anything to a first turn Ape. This guy will.

[magicmerl]

I agree with the comparisons between Pyrewild Shaman and Gempalm. I think that those two cards are most similar. However, I think that something that is straight up removal is better than something that is a combat trick. And something that draws you a card is better than something that might draw you a card in several turns.

So I can't see PS beating out Gempalm in the deck.

[superspaceshooter]

Pyrewild Shaman has got to be better against combo decks than Gempalm Incinerator, no? And lest we not forget that some lists only run 3 Incinerators for a reason; they aren't the bee's knees. Additionally, I can see preferring one Gempalm Incinerator and one Pyrewild Shaman in hand in most circumstances rather than twin copies of either. I'm not saying this is going to necessarily replace anything in particular though. I'm just saying Shaman shouldn't be tossed aside like common white trash (Loyal Legionist and its ilk).

[GoboLord]

I kind of get the feeling that the [DTB]-status attracts more people to the threat that come up with funny ideas. Don't like that. I mean I can't help it since the [DTB]-status is granted on basis of certain criteria, but I'd rather see GOblins on the "Established" board. I will just stay inactive and won't participate in any discussions on the thread until you guys have finished your Aliban's Tower discussion (and also the discussion of wether Mogg War Marshal is a bad cardchoice or not). I''ll join in as soon as we have come back to discussing REAL issues.

Bye.

//EDIT:
Keep posting tournament results and decklists please.

[LeoCop 90]

I think that Pyrewild shaman is not a good card for us, he is too mana intensive. I would never play punishing fire in our deck because it is mana intensive too, and our deck is already mana hungry... so i really don't think we can afford to pay 3 mana to return this guy back to our hands. Yes , he is a goblin differently from punishing fire, but being a goblin is not enough to be played in a LEGACY goblin deck.
Moreover, pump spells is not what we need , because removal are better. If you want to play a pump spell you should at least play one that make lackeys connect such as rancor.

I'm not saying that this guy is rubbish, because he is better than a lot of other printed goblins. Aniway, i could list a lot of goblins with nice abilities that simply are not good enough for legacy (the one that is more similar to pyrewild shaman is Auntie's Snitch , and i think it's better than pyrewild). I suppose it could be played in modern and without any doubt in standard.

Aniway, if you want to test it there is nothing wrong with it. There is no need to react like this, Gobolord, although I agree with you that people are overestimating pyrewild shaman a lot and that probably is better to stop discussing about him until someone brings some real testing results.

[ScatmanX]

Damn dtb. Pretty sad we got here.
Uff, and I thought I was the only one to think so...
There we go again =]
Still, I test every card *might* have the slightest possibility of seeing play, so I'll do that.

[magicmerl]

Pyrewild Shaman has got to be better against combo decks than Gempalm Incinerator, no?
Absolutely not. Drawing one card closer to a piece of combo hate is FAR stronger than doing what is basically nothing.


And lest we not forget that some lists only run 3 Incinerators for a reason; they aren't the bee's knees.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, since I think they are the bees knees. Do you have some recent (i.e. this year) successful lists that only run 3? Because most lists I've seen max out on Gempalms. jrw and my recent decent performances maxed Gempalms. Max Teitze maxed them when he won the SCG Open.

I don't want to seem results oriented, but I also don't want to make the list sub-optimal either.


Additionally, I can see preferring one Gempalm Incinerator and one Pyrewild Shaman in hand in most circumstances rather than twin copies of either. I'm not saying this is going to necessarily replace anything in particular though. I'm just saying Shaman shouldn't be tossed aside like common white trash (Loyal Legionist and its ilk).
I think that in general cards should be 0-ofs or 4-ofs in the deck unless the following occurs:
1. They are largely interchangeable within a set of wider cards (aka 2 drops)
2. You want less than 4 of them for mana curve considerations (aka SGC)
3. They are there as Tutor targets (Prospector, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter, TSH, Krenko)

I just don't think that legacy is an environment right now where combat tricks and mana intensive card draw is amazing.

[superspaceshooter]

Don't you worry, I run 4 Gempalm Incinerators myself. It's a terrific card. I used to run 3, but it's closer to 3 than to wanting 5.

There are 3 pieces to a Goblin deck, and some are more interchangeable than others:

1)Goblins

2)Non-Goblins

3) Lands

The first section is Goblins. Because of Goblin Ringleader, you want to play as many Goblins as possible. Every non-Goblin you play (including AEther Vial and Lands) detracts from Ringleader's power. And since the deck is basically built on Goblin Ringleader, you best play as many Goblins as possible.

Non-Goblins usually include AEther Vial and nothing more. Sometimes you'll see Thalia, Guardian of Thraben here, and in postboard games you will find 3-4 cards here, but the effect REALLY has to be worth making the linchpin of the deck (Goblin Ringleader) worse.

You need a certain amount of both lands, and red sources for you Goblins. Since Goblins has a high curve for Legacy, you have to eat into Goblin Ringleader more than you'd prefer.

As you can see, the least flexible slots in a Goblin deck are the Non-Goblins and Lands. Goblin Ringleader doesn't care what the effect is, as long as it gets put into your hand. Clearly we aren't throwing random Goblin Heros in our deck, but please stop comparing Pyrewild Shaman to Lightning Bolt or Rancor: They are in different sections of the Goblins deck and are thus not comparable. Because we have 30+ Goblin slots, and a lot of them are not sacred (I only consider Goblin Lackey, Goblin Matron, and Goblin Ringleader automatic 4-of's), there is plenty of room for "insignificant" effects, as long as they perform the job you ask of them. Pyrewild Shaman, as I've mentioned previous, does everything you want to do with Goblins: Attack and gain Card Advantage. You have two 1/1 Goblin tokens and they have a 3/3 Nimble Mongoose. Swing!

[Bichon_Blitz]

You know why this card sucks? It's a recurring giant growth, nay, not even giant growth. It's a pump spell that keeps coming back at the cost of our second main phase. Those of you who think this card deserves a spot, tell me what you'd cut for this. Then again if you think this card is worth playing I fear seeing your list. I don't want to bash other people, not trying to. By all means, test him. Experiment. It's encouraged. All i'm saying is if punishing fire said you had to pay 3 colorless to recur, do you think that card would be played in legacy? And this card's not even on p-fire's level. Oh, and you also have to deal damage to your opponent first with a creature. By turn 3, our deck wants to do SO much stuff. Pumping a dude and recurring it a turn later, gosh, I'm sure our opponents are ready to scoop. You're better off playing pyromancer, which honestly is a neat little tech that I'd like to explore more than this jank.

[Dice_Box]

Ok guys, can we drop talk on Pyrewild Shaman for the time being. We do not even have the card yet to test with. I would greatly appreciate some more talk on side board tec and not speculation on a card we yet have no access to.

[Bichon_Blitz]

My sb is something like:

4x Chalice
3x Rest in Peace
2x Pyrokinesis
2x Disenchant
1x Tuktuk
1x Stingscourger (prob getting cut for 2nd Thalia, meta choice)
2x Thalia

Kinda hard to cut sting but I've yet to see Reanimator/SnT, mostly fair stuff. And I feel like sting is so huge in those matches. I always wanna go to 3 'kinesis like I used to or 3 Thalia, but c'est la magic.

[magicmerl]

Ok guys, can we drop talk on Pyrewild Shaman for the time being. We do not even have the card yet to test with. I would greatly appreciate some more talk on side board tec and not speculation on a card we yet have no access to.

Did you see my post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=718523&viewfull=1#post718523) on the previous page? Do you think that's a useful place for starting from?

Goblins is such an inherently fair deck, I think that the SB definitely carries it. One thing that I am all in favour of is the idea of the '18 card sideboard'. And by that, I'm really running 3 SB cards maindeck, with an easy sub out for matchups when those cards aren't useful.

[Dice_Box]

Did you see my post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=718523&viewfull=1#post718523) on the previous page? Do you think that's a useful place for starting from?
Yes I did. But I think that your post is a great starting point for a lot of useful dialog and not an ending place for the discussion.

[magicmerl]

I'm glad we agree then.

How badly do you need each type (GY, storm, SnT, creature, artifact) of card?

That will let you know roughly how many slots to devote to each.

[Dice_Box]

I do not know yet. As I have only played 4 games in my local Meta and there was easily 25 players there I am not sure. But combo, Snt and goblins are there. But only one other goblin deck. I really think Artifact hate is not a major priority and right now combo hate is. I took out Pithing and added Pyroblast and traded CotV for Mindbreak. Will test it next week.

[magicmerl]

So you took CotV out because you wanted combo hate?

Based on an expected meta of storm, SnT and tribal, I'd shoot for something like this:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Rest in Peace (Relic of Progenitus if monoR)
3 Thalia (Mindbreak Trap if MonoR)
3 Angel of Despair
2 Pyrokinesis

Edit: If you run 18 cards in your SB (Thalia main) then you can have this SB
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Rest in Peace (Relic of Progenitus if monoR)
3 Angel of Despair
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tin Street Hooligan (Tuktuk Scrapper if monoR)

[Dice_Box]

I dislike Angel of Despair as a sideboard card. The very narrow scope of it seems to only be any use against one kind of deck. I would rather run more stingers than Angel.

[magicmerl]

I dislike Angel of Despair as a sideboard card. The very narrow scope of it seems to only be any use against one kind of deck. I would rather run more stingers than Angel.
Unfortunately, that's the nature of sideboarding vs Show and Tell. Stingscourger isn't a great solution since they could easily Show Omniescence into play, and then you'll look a bit silly, won't you?

As far as I can tell, your SnT options are:
1. hope not to be paired against it, or that they fizzle when you do (this is what I did at my last tournament)
2. Angel of Despair
3. Confusion in the Ranks
4. Oblivion Ring

I don't think that Pyroblast is as good as the above options. And it's generally bad vs blue decks since they can usually counter your blast, so all you've really done is strip mine yourself (by keeping R up). Oblivion Ring is a decent answer that gives you near parity with SnT, you can feasibly hardcast it, and could be good vs other matchups like Energy Field and Moat.

[Dice_Box]

I have Confusion in the post. You say run that over Pryo? So say I changed things up we would have this:

3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Confusion in the Ranks
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Flex slots (CotV for the time being)

[magicmerl]

Yep. You're a monoR maindeck?

The next step is working out what the bad MD cards are to take out for the matchups you expect. Let's say you expect to face these decks: Storm, SnT, BUG, RUG, Goblins. What's important in each match, what are the dead MD cards, and how would you SB cards in and out (needs your MD)?

[Dice_Box]

I am, but I have R/G duels and R/B duals. I might one day pick up R/W duals but thats not going to happen anytime soon. I will next week be Running a R/G deck with Root Maze in it purely for the fun of it but I might sideboard in Kroson Grip while I do just because it is a simple and well placed card for stopping Helm decks and counter top.

[Bichon_Blitz]

Omnitell is not the same as Sneak n Show. I'm not sure we have a good chance against omnitell g1 and g2 k-grip/disenchant feels necessary. Sneak and Show is a little bit different. Stingscourger actually matters, and there's always the chance we get to live through an attack to matron for scourger and then swang. The omni version is way more explosive, and I can't imagine them respecting gobs short of REB (so i guess keep a red up to keep them honest). I have zero experience with confusion in the ranks, it seems only good versus the omnitell matchup. Is that right?

[L10]

Hey Jon,

I actually did read your report, but I don't have anything construptive to say that has not been said, so I didn't say anything. Your deck looks solid, but your mana base got me really thinking. I had been talking to my friends about the proper land count. Personally, I like my 23 land count with 4 Ports and 4 Wastelands; however, many people are converting to 22 lands by cutting a Mountain. If this were the case, assuming we play a full set of CoS, it means that we have 14 red source for goblins, and only 10 red source for spells. For goblins, we have a 86.1% to drop a red source on first turn, and a 60.5% on the second turn. However, if we had 15 red sources, we have a 88.2% to drop a red source on first turn, and a 65% on the second turn. It also brings our chances of getting pure red source on turn 1 from 74.1% to 77.8, which is important for Gempalm Incinerator. So in my opinion, if we were to cut one land out from the 23, it should not be a Mountain, but a Rishadan Port, because Goblins is a very mana hungry deck, and we can't be too greedy with our red mana. In your case however, since one of your Cavern of Souls may be set to human instead of Goblins, it is better to have yet another Port to be a Moutain. So for your deck, you can afford to have 2 Ports, or 1 Karakas and 1 Port, which is what you have derived to. This is my long winded way of saying your land base looks good. On the other hand, you may consider piloting with 2 Ports because it goes really well with Thalia's mana denial strategy.

[Dice_Box]

The next step is working out what the bad MD cards are to take out for the matchups you expect. Let's say you expect to face these decks: Storm, SnT, BUG, RUG, Goblins. What's important in each match, what are the dead MD cards, and how would you SB cards in and out (needs your MD)?
Ok lets have a go at this.

Sideboard as stands:
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Confusion in the Ranks
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Flex slots (CotV for the time being)

Verse Combo Elves
+2 Pyro
+3 Relic
Or
+2 Pryo
+3 Trap

-1 Vial
-1 Chieftain
-2 Piledriver
-1 Crafter

Reasons:
Grave hate is for Deathrite Shaman and Life from the Loam. To stop them from going nuts.
Pyro is to burn out the Combo Engine.

The other line up with Trap is to start counting some of the more needed combo pieces as card after card is played. Trap or Relic would need to be in the opening hand so I might go for a line up with all six and no pyro. Food for thought.


VS SnT.
-1 Prospector
-1 Crafter
-1 Sharpshooter
-2 MWM

+3 Ranks
+2 Trap

Ranks is there to cause mayhem if SnT is played. Trap is there just in case Omniscience is dropped.


VS Omniscience.
-1 Prospector
-1 Crafter
-1 Sharpshooter
-3 MWM

+3 CotV
+3 Trap

Cotv would be set at 2. This is to stop the Wish cards that I have seen used to fetch the other wish cards from the sideboard and play Emrakul. (Burning, Living, Emrakul.) The other idea is to run trap to counter to Emrakul. After playing two wishes, snt and Omniscience I think this could work out well. I might also put Ranks in if I do not think I can drop CotV at 2 fast enough.


VS Dredge

+3 Relic
+1 Ranks

-1 Chieftain
-1 Ringleader
-1 Crafter
-1 Piledriver

I do not want to take out anything with the ability to kill something of my own. The exception is Crafter as I just do not think he is fast enough to be of any real use. Chieftain I do not feel is the best choice. Haste for a sharpshooter night save my life. Thinking on this.


VS Stoneblade.
+1 Srapper
+3 Ranks

Not sure what to take out. Crafter needs to stay and Chieftain too. Most important is Prospector tho. These are the games I wish I still ran four.
The reason for Ranks is that I do not mind handing over I Vial is I get a Jite in return. Seems like an unfair trade that I would not mind. Otherwise stealing Mystic just sounds like fun.


Zoo:
Open to ideas. Have not played against it a whole lot. Does not seem like a thing locally.


Reanimator
+3 Relic

Not sure what to take out though. Nothing jumps at me. I could take out a Chieftain and Crafter but thats just what jumps out.


So what did I miss and what did I do right and wrong?

Thanks for your input.

[magicmerl]

Ok lets have a go at this.

Sideboard as stands:
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Confusion in the Ranks
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Flex slots (CotV for the time being)

Verse Combo Elves
+2 Pyro
+3 Relic
Or
+2 Pryo
+3 Trap

-1 Vial
-1 Chieftain
-2 Piledriver
-1 Crafter

Reasons:
Grave hate is for Deathrite Shaman and Life from the Loam. To stop them from going nuts.
Pyro is to burn out the Combo Engine.

The other line up with Trap is to start counting some of the more needed combo pieces as card after card is played. Trap or Relic would need to be in the opening hand so I might go for a line up with all six and no pyro. Food for thought.

How does Relic or Mindbreak Trap help you here? I agree that Vial is too slow, but given your sideboard I think that it should be
+3 CotV
+2 Pyro
- Chieftain
- 2 PD
- 2 Vial
Does aggro elves run Life from the Loam?


VS SnT.
-1 Prospector
-1 Crafter
-1 Sharpshooter
-2 MWM

+3 Ranks
+2 Trap

Ranks is there to cause mayhem if SnT is played. Trap is there just in case Omniscience is dropped.
I think you just want 3 Ranks, and cut the three worst cards (Sharpshooter, Crafter and Prospector)


VS Omniscience.
-1 Prospector
-1 Crafter
-1 Sharpshooter
-3 MWM

+3 CotV
+3 Trap

Cotv would be set at 2. This is to stop the Wish cards that I have seen used to fetch the other wish cards from the sideboard and play Emrakul. (Burning, Living, Emrakul.) The other idea is to run trap to counter to Emrakul. After playing two wishes, snt and Omniscience I think this could work out well. I might also put Ranks in if I do not think I can drop CotV at 2 fast enough.
I'm a big CotV fan, but I think that setting it at 2 requires you to get to 4 mana and that's just too slow to be relevant. I think you just side the same as vs SnT (because really, isn't this just a flavour of SnT?).


VS Dredge

+3 Relic
+1 Ranks

-1 Chieftain
-1 Ringleader
-1 Crafter
-1 Piledriver

I do not want to take out anything with the ability to kill something of my own. The exception is Crafter as I just do not think he is fast enough to be of any real use. Chieftain I do not feel is the best choice. Haste for a sharpshooter night save my life. Thinking on this.
I don't think you need ranks here. I'd probably Crafter and 2 Ringleaders for the 3 Relics.


VS Stoneblade.
+1 Srapper
+3 Ranks

Not sure what to take out. Crafter needs to stay and Chieftain too. Most important is Prospector tho. These are the games I wish I still ran four.
The reason for Ranks is that I do not mind handing over I Vial is I get a Jite in return. Seems like an unfair trade that I would not mind. Otherwise stealing Mystic just sounds like fun.
Whoa. Confusion in the Ranks is good vs SnT only. So you really only want Scrapper in. I would probably cut a MWM, Chieftain or Crafter for it.



Zoo:
Open to ideas. Have not played against it a whole lot. Does not seem like a thing locally.
Their creatures are a lot less aggressive if you have no graveyard. So 2 Pyro, 3 relics for Prospector, 4 PD.



Reanimator
+3 Relic

Not sure what to take out though. Nothing jumps at me. I could take out a Chieftain and Crafter but thats just what jumps out.
I would bring in Mindbreak Trap and CotV as well, particularly if they run Lotus Petal or moxen. Any dark ritual deck gets stymied by CotV on 1 too.
Cuts are: Crafter, Sharpshooter, Prospector, 3 MWM, 3 Ringleader.


As always, this is not me saying I'm right and you are wrong. But that is what I would do with a generic monoR list and your SB.

[Dice_Box]

Thanks. I will think about this. I am glad for the info. It can only be helpful.

Also the deck was not Agro Elves but Combo Elves (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17168-Deck-Elves-Combo). (His was B/G) Second or third turn he was doing a ton of stuff. Drawing whenever he played a critter, bouncing critters to his hands to untap others and then tapping them for mana. Life of Loam was used to dump land into his grave and then Deathrite was used to gain Mana. I watched him do it all the first game. Second game I Pyro'ed the 3 cards he needed to get the Mana to start. I knew he would. Thing is I discarded to 5 to get the cards I needed and had one land. I thought that was not a big issue but 5 turns in he had just hit me with whatever he could drop and I needed just one mana to fight him. I never got it.

Also how mindbreak helps against combo elves? It lets you take the wind out of their sails as then start to cast card after card. Taking out the Priestess I think would have hurt him. But by the time he played it he had about 9 critters on the field. I played against Elves last in Onslaught. There Gobos ripped em up. I had no idea he could race me and win. That deck is crazy.

When I looked back I thought that Pyro plus gave hate would have done the trick. If I had of taken from him Deathrite he would have had a really slow start too and I could have raced him. Pyro was the better choice here tho. I do agree tho in hindsight that CotV would have eaten him.

The Reanimator advise is useful, cheers.


Also in other news, my Relics arrived today. I am very happy to have them.

[Hof]

I said earlier in this thread that I would try a Goblins deck with 0 Wasteland, and now I have. I played Goblins at two side events at GP Strasbourg.
My results were 3-1-1 and 5-4, so nothing spectacular, but nonetheless I would like to share my deck and a few thoughts that I have had.

14 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Æther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Legion Loyalist
2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Krenko, Mob Boss

SB:
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Settler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Confusion in the Ranks
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

My losses in the 9 round event were to Elves, Sneak/Show, Storm, Jund. I think that is a fine showcase of the deck's bad matchups.
Elves is probably the worst matchup.
The deck pretty much walks over any fair deck with blue, including Miracles, Esperblade, and all Delver decks.

About Wasteland. Playing 14 Mountain and 0 Wasteland lets me do three important things:
1) Being less vulnerable to Wasteland.
2) Deathrite Shaman is less effective.
3) Consistently cast Instigator on turn two.
The price is obvious: Less mana disruption. In most of the games, I did not miss Wasteland, except maybe against Jund.
Against combo it either doesn't matter (Elves) or is nullified by cantrips and can set me back at least as much as my opponent.

Warren Instigator is very, very strong in this deck. This would often happen against, say, Esperblade: Turn 1 something irrelevant (Lackey, StP exchange). Turn 2: Stoneforge fetching Batterskull. Instigator. Turn 3: Esperblade can activate Stoneforge. I play land, Chieftain, swing with Instigator. If he blocks with Batterskull, we trade, if he block with Stoneforge, Stoneforge dies, and if he does not block, well...
MWM could never fill the role of Instigator in this deck.

Legion Loyalist was surprisingly good. I might try 2 next time.
Generally I made a choice not to worry too much about opposing creatures, which is why I only have 2 Gempalm between Loyalist and the 3 maindeck Stingscourger.

Playing a deck like this felt good, but I really need to work on the combo matchups by speeding things up a little.

[Dice_Box]

If your going to play with Win and Legion I would say throw in a Pendelhaven and see if it helps.

[Geeksire]

Hello everyone! I am seeing as to Thalia, Guardian of Thraben being used in sideboards now and I am wondering, is it faster than Earwig Squad? My sideboard is different in certain situations but the one I will get slaughtered is Show and Tell:

15x Sideboard:
4x Chalice of the Voids'
3x Relic of Progenitus'
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Earwig Squads' (Thinking of replacing with 3x Thalia)
2x Mindbreak Traps' (I can replace with Angel of Despair but not sure)

I feel like I can counter a lot of decks with this sideboard but what is your opinions on Earwig Squad and Thalia? Which would benefit in our meta in Legacy Tournaments?

[Dice_Box]

I like earwig ad an idea to stop combo. In a few ways I could see it being useful. But to me the reason I would not run it is that normally combo wants the cards it needs in its hand. They will mull down to get sum part or it and use a draw engine to get the rest.

In short, taking out 3 SnT from the deck when they have one in their hand will have little effect.

[magicmerl]

I think that three mana (and a successful attack) is way too slow to reliably inhibit combo. Tin fins can frequently attack with Emrakul and Griselbrand on T2. Storm can comfortably storm off on T2/3. Show and Tell can play an Island, then Ancient Tomb and cast it's namesake. Even Thalia is not really fast enough on the draw.

[Eleven]

Hey guys! Today I ended 4th in the catalan league here in Barcelona with 112 people playing Rg goblins! Later I'll write a report for those who are interested! :)

[jrw1985]

Hey guys! Today I ended 4th in the catalan league here in Barcelona with 112 people playing Rg goblins! Later I'll write a report for those who are interested! :)

Well done!

[Dice_Box]

Well done man. Can't wait to see your line up and deck list.

[Eleven]

Well, as I promised here is the report :)

I played this list:

4x Goblin matron
4x Goblin warchief
4x Goblin ringleader
4x Gempalm incinerator
4x Goblin lackey
3x Mogg war marshal
3x Goblin piledriver
2x Siege-gang commander
2x Stingscourger
1x Teen street hooligan
1x Goblin sharpshooter
1x Skirk prospector
4x Aether vial
1x Taiga
4x Wooded foothills
2x Bloodstained mire
5x Mountain
3x Rishadan port
4x Wasteland
4x Cavern of souls

Sideboard
3x Pyrokinesis
3x Relic of progenitus
2x Sulfur elemental
2x Confusion in the ranks
3x Mindbreak trap
2x Krosan grip

The Main board is the same as Max Tietze played but cutting White splash and cutting 1 piledriver for 1 stingscourger due to the increase of S&T decks. The SB is also a bit different, the sulfur elementals were put in because I thought that there would be some Death and Taxes decks after their good results in the last GP.
---

Round 1 - Death & Taxes
I know what he's playing because he's a friend and I had been talking to him the night before the tournament. Game 1 He mulligans to 6, I keep a decent hand with Vial and some good dudes but he does turn 2 stoneforge and I can't find the way to kill it with gempalm so he plays his jitte and that was the game since I couldn't find teen street hooligan. Game 2 I start with a really good hand with vial. He plays stone into jitte but this time I have teen street to deal with it. He stabilizes his board a bit but I draw a Sulfur elemental, I play it, he had Thalia, Flicker and Mother so everything dies and he conceeds. Game 3 was also as game 1, he plays a stone turn 2 and I can't find any artifact hate or pyrokinesis or Sulfur so I can't survive his jitte.

0-1, I start horribly and I have to win every round from now on.

Round 2 - BUG
Game 1 he starts with Usea into Shaman, the game goes really long and at the end I am at 4, I just have a vial and like 4 or 5 lands in play, while he has a tarmo and a sylvan library in play. I have to put every turn a goblin in play just to block the tarmo and survive till one turn when he attacks, I block with a matron which searched for a lackey, EOT I play lackey with vial, on my turn attack with lackey, he has nothing to block and no removal so lackey connects, I put Siege gang with lackey and it is the game. Game 2 is really short, he starts with shaman again, I start with lackey. On his turn 2 he plays a tarmo using his shaman to give mana, on my turn I play cavern into goblin and stingscourger to bounce tarmo, attack with goblin and put SGC into play, he conceeds some turns later.

1-1, there's still a long way.

Round 3 - Canadian
Game 1 he starts with a mangoose which is not a really good problem, I put some goblins in play while he doesn't play any delver which is the main threat for me. I end playing a SGC with cavern of souls and he doesn't even have stifle for the trigger of the goblins si SGC ends the game. Game 2 I keep a hand without some action but with 2 Relics, I start with relic and he starts with mongoose, I draw a Vial so I play it on my turn 2 and the second relic, he can't do anything against 2 relics so I end winning the game.

2-1, and happy with the deck.

Round 4 - Jund
I know that he plays jund and I get a bit depresses because the matchup is soooooo difficult. Game 1 is short, he has some bad luck and just draws shamans, he ends with 4 shamans in play but nothing else and I end winning with a SGC. Game 2 I keep a slow hand with relic, the game goes long and he plays a jitte, I can find the teen street before he gets to attack with it and put counters. He has a Sylvan in play but he can't draw extra cards because he's just at 5, he can't find too much action with sylvan and plays a shaman, on my turn I draw a gempalm, play Warchief, kill shaman with gempalm and attack with warchief and piledriver for the victory.

3-1, really happy with the 2-0 against jund!

Round 5 - Esper Blade
I have to play against my team mate and we had been testing so we both know what we play. He mulligans to 6 and I keep a decent hand with vial. He does land go, on my turn I play Vial but he counters with FoW. On his second turn he plays Stone into jitte, on my second turn I play MWM, he plays jitte and I can't find teen street so I have to deal almost all the game with jitte. I can finally find teen street and kill jitte, but there's another threat because he plays another stone into batter and I have no more artifact hate. The game goes really long and he can find his academy ruins to put jitte back on his top and then in play. At a time in the game I look at my Graveyard and see that there are 2 SGC, 4 Ringleaders and a Teen street, so I conceed. When I look at the watch I see that there are only 15 minutes left and I'm losing so I see it really hard to win. Games 2 is a bit strange, I start with vial and he forces, he puts tundra into play, on my turn I waste the tundra, he responses playing BS, on his turn he doesn't do landrop so there is the game. We have to play the game 3 only with 10 minutes left, the game goes and we find ourselves on turns, after some Veredicts I can set up my boeard and kill him on turn 4.

4-1, We are almost there!

Round 6 - Show and Tell
A friend tells me what he plays. Game 1 I keep a hand with stingscourger, He starts with ponder, I start with lackey. He continues doing some cantrips while I attack with lackey into piledriver since I had nothing better to put in. I draw a port and I can control his lands a bit while attacking with lackey and pile. Some turns later he has like 4 or 5 lands and some lotus petals so the port is not a problem. On his turn he does intuition to S&T, another intu into griselbrand and play Show and tell, he puts grisel and I put the stingscourger that I had, I bounce his grisel and win on my turn. For Game 2 I board in some Mindbreaks because I thought he also played omniscience. I open a hand with 1 or 2 goblins, lands, 3 traps and a grip, so I keep. The game goes and I put some gobs and control his lands with a port. Some turns later he does s&t into sneak attack, I put a matron with the s&t and play Krosan into the sneak attack in response to the matron's trigger, I can kill him 1 or 2 turns later.

5-1, yay! I got it and almost for sure I'll be able to draw into the top.

Round 7 - BUG Cascade
Sadly I can't draw so I have to play. Game 1 I can't do anything, he does turn 1 shaman, turn 2 liliana, turn 3 jace, turn 4 agent into ancestral vision to draw 3 so I conceed. Game 2 I start with a relic, I keep droping some goblins while I control his shaman with the relic and he can't draw too many lands so I end winning. Game 3 lasts a bit long, there's a point where I am at 5 and he has a Creeping tar pit, a tarmo and an agent. I have a vial on 5, a vial on 4 and another one on 3. He's at 13 and if I don't kill him this turn I die on his next. I put a ringleader with vial, a matron with the vial at 3 and after doings some maths I decide to take SGC, put it with vial on 5. I put a skirk with a cavern and attack with everything since I had a warchief on play to give haste and kill him!

6-1, I am in the top!

Top 8 - Nic fit
Game 1 he's stuck at 3 lands and I can even control them with a port so I end winning with warchief and piledriver. Game 2 I keep a bad hand, the discards mi gobs with therapys. He plays a garruk primal hunter and the dude that puts 4 squittel tokens so I can't do anything. Game 3 I start with lackey who connects and put a Ringleader that gives me 4 goblins (I even have to discart at EOT). The game continues and he plays the one that puts squirrels, EOT I play gempalm to kill the dude of the squirrels because it gives them +1+1, I draw SHARPSHOOTER! So I play it and clean the table because the squirrels are now 1/1 and I had a warchief for haste. I end winning with a lot of goblins since he doesn't draw perni.

Top 4 - Maverick
Game 1 I can't do anything with a stone into jitte which he plays really soon. Game 2 we're both stuck on 1 land but I draw them before him. He stabilizes his table with some lands and a vial, but I draw a sulfur, play it, then draw another sulfur, play it and he conceeds. Game 3 sadly is the same as game 1, he plays a fast stone into jitte and I can't find any hate (pyro or sulfur or krosan) so I die some turns later against a reliquary equipped with jitte.
---

And that was the tournament! I have to say that I was very happy with the deck. The worst problem was the jitte, so maybe I have to put more artifact hate. Also that was the first time that I played without krenko and 2 SGC and let me say that I didn't miss him, SGC is simply awesome and almost all the times that I played matrons he was the target.

Hope you guys like it! :smile:

[jrw1985]

Round 6 - Show and Tell
A friend tells me what he plays. Game 1 I keep a hand with stingscourger, He starts with ponder, I start with lackey. He continues doing some cantrips while I attack with lackey into piledriver since I had nothing better to put in. I draw a port and I can control his lands a bit while attacking with lackey and pile. Some turns later he has like 4 or 5 lands and some lotus petals so the port is not a problem. On his turn he does intuition to S&T, another intu into griselbrand and play Show and tell, he puts grisel and I put the stingscourger that I had, I bounce his grisel and win on my turn. For Game 2 I board in some Mindbreaks because I thought he also played omniscience. I open a hand with 1 or 2 goblins, lands, 3 traps and a grip, so I keep. The game goes and I put some gobs and control his lands with a port. Some turns later he does s&t into sneak attack, I put a matron with the s&t and play Krosan into the sneak attack in response to the matron's trigger, I can kill him 1 or 2 turns later.


Fantastic! Did he cry?

[magicmerl]

Hey, thanks for the report Eleven. It was a good read. Some thoughts:

1. It's 'Tin Street Hooligan', or TSH for short. I was thinking of Teen Wolf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_Wolf) every time I read 'Teen Street'.

2. Sounds like your biggest problem was Jitte. I know you wanted TSH to deal with it, but I have actually found that Prospector and Sharpshooter do an excellent job at killing your own goblins to prevent the combat trigger, and Gempalm/Vial-Incinerator to kill their equipped creature (bonus points for killing a germ this way).

3. How did you SB in the different matchups?

[Eleven]

@Jrw: haha yea he cried a bit :p

@magicmeri: 1. Yea I never know if it is "teen" or "tin" haha sorry :p 2. Yup, jitte was the biggest problem of the torunament and that's right what you say about SS and Skirk but sometimes they have some counters on jitte so if you play them after they attacked there's nothing to do because they can kill them. 3. I'll edit the post later with the SB changes :)

[magicmerl]

About your Krosan Grip the Sneak Atack moment, your opponent misplayed. He could have sneaked in Griselbrand (or Emrakul) in response to the Matron trigger. So while you could have gripped it, he still would have wiped your board.

[ScatmanX]

About your Krosan Grip the Sneak Atack moment, your opponent misplayed. He could have sneaked in Griselbrand (or Emrakul) in response to the Matron trigger. So while you could have gripped it, he still would have wiped your board.
ssshhhh!
Maybe the SnT players don't know about that! =p

[Dice_Box]

ssshhhh!
Maybe the SnT players don't know about that! =p
Haha. They are not all fools. Still plays like that one made make me smile when I think about just how useful stinger is.

Thanks for the deck list man. Is there anything you would change other than the extra art hate? If so why?

[Eleven]

About the list, I found it really good, maybe I would try to cut Prospector into something else since it wasn't really helpful at all, anyways I think he can be very good against jitte/batter and also combined with MWM and SS so I will give him another chance.

[Avatara]

Haha. They are not all fools. Still plays like that one made make me smile when I think about just how useful stinger is.
I think that only works with Stingscourger if they have a creature in play. If there is no legal target for Stingscourger; you can't put the ability on the stack.

[magicmerl]

I think that only works with Stingscourger if they have a creature in play. If there is no legal target for Stingscourger; you can't put the ability on the stack.
If you want to 'Grip them and trick them', any goblin with an ETB ability (MWM, Matron, Ringleader, SGC) will do.

[Dice_Box]

Something useful at last:

http://www.mythicspoiler.com/dgm/cards/spikedjester.jpg

Anyway. My Root Maze are not in so I will not be able to use them tomorrow. Will try the same main as I had last week and see how I do.

[lyracian]

Something useful at last:
I doubt it; what does a weak haste Goblin do for the deck?

[Dice_Box]

In comparison to the other cards this one is not half bad. Not a legacy card but its something better than the rest of the gobos in the set.

[Avatara]

If you want to 'Grip them and trick them', any goblin with an ETB ability (MWM, Matron, Ringleader, SGC) will do.



Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the
next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, “Timing and Priority.” The ability becomes
the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other
characteristics. It remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed
from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.



The remainder of the process for putting a triggered ability on the stack is identical to the
process for casting a spell listed in rules 601.2c–d. If a choice is required when the triggered
ability goes on the stack but no legal choices can be made for it, or if a rule or a continuous
effect otherwise makes the ability illegal, the ability is simply removed from the stack.


The trigger will go on the stack, but it will be removed by the game rules before anyone gets priority. The active player will receive priority at this time, and since the stack is empty, he or she will be able to cast sorceries. For the oblivion ring question, you always have to choose targets if able. If a legal target exists, you must choose it.

So no.. Stingscourger will not work. This has been discussed before.

[jrw1985]

2nd Week in a row with Goblins just ouside of the SCG Top 8!

Goblins

Cedric Phillips

9th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 4/21/2013

Creatures (29)
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Lands (24)
3 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Spells (7)
4 Aether Vial
3 Tarfire

Sideboard
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Angel of Despair
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben


He's running pretty much the same list I was only MD had -3 Thalia, +3 Tarfire, -2 Piledriver, -1 Plateau, +3 Rishadan Port, -1 Skirk Prospector, +1 TSH. The MD is a little more focused on beating creature decks, which I think is the right call. Can't say I dig the 4 Angel of Despair in the SB. They always seemed too narrow.

Anywho, Congrats to Cedric!

[ScatmanX]

Anywho, Congrats to Cedric!
Im glad he did goog. On th UWr Miracles match, I'd probably do almost all the same plays he did, but on the last game he played tooo slow. Imo if he was a little faster he'd be able to win that game (and he should have attacked T2 of extra turns...)
Still,I like him as a goblin player. Congrats to him.

[jrw1985]

I played my Rwg goblins list with three Thalia MD on Saturday at a monthly tourney and went 1-2! Ye Gads.

R1 Merfolk W

R2 Reanimator
G1 on the Play I opened a hand of Lackey, Prospector, Thalia, Plateau, Waste and whatever. I make a mistake right off the bat. I Play Skirk T1 so I can sac Skirk fo mana to play Thalia T2 and Waste his land. What I should have done was play Lackey T1, Lackey in the Skirk T2, Play Thalia, blow up his land. That would have allowed me to drop more cards from hand and put a faster clock on him. Instead i went for the first line of play, and he was able to play enough lands to win through the Thalia.
G2 I had the nuts, Lackey, Piledriver, SGC, Cavern, Fetch, Rest in Peace. I play Lackey off Cavern. My opponent FoWs the Lackey. I threw the game away and let him take back the FoW. T2 I cheat in SGC and cast piledriver, knowing that my opponent has a FoW for the RiP. T2 he reanimates Elesh Norn. I lose. Other players at the store chide me for taking it too easy on my opponent. The thing is, I'm all about plays where I feel like I'm taking advantage of knowing the rules better than my opponent (Gemplam on Mutavault, KGrip on Omni/Sneak Attack in response to ETB triggers), but at a 25 player event I'm just not going to hold my opponent to a play where they miss something blatantly obvious. I don't know. I probably should have held him to it and played the RiP T2 with the coast clear rather than piledriver, but whatever.
L

R3 Esperblade
I die to a combination of Jitte + Batterskull both games.

I think running a few Sulfur Elementals would really help my game against Esperblade. Thalia has always seemed pretty weak against Esper, so siding her out and bringing a couple flashy Spirit-killers in might not be a terrible idea...

[GoboLord]

G2 I had the nuts, Lackey, Piledriver, SGC, Cavern, Fetch, Rest in Peace. I play Lackey off Cavern. My opponent FoWs the Lackey. I threw the game away and let him take back the FoW. T2 I cheat in SGC and cast piledriver, knowing that my opponent has a FoW for the RiP. T2 he reanimates Elesh Norn. I lose. Other players at the store chide me for taking it too easy on my opponent. The thing is, I'm all about plays where I feel like I'm taking advantage of knowing the rules better than my opponent (Gemplam on Mutavault, KGrip on Omni/Sneak Attack in response to ETB triggers), but at a 25 player event I'm just not going to hold my opponent to a play where they miss something blatantly obvious. I don't know. I probably should have held him to it and played the RiP T2 with the coast clear rather than piledriver, but whatever.


Not letting him take back the FoW would be against the rules, so you did the right thing.
When you cast your Lackey out off Caverns it's automatically uncounterable. Which means that FoW did not have any legal targets in that turn. If you let him counter that Lackey you knowingly violate rules.

[jrw1985]

Not letting him take back the FoW would be against the rules, so you did the right thing.
When you cast your Lackey out off Caverns it's automatically uncounterable. Which means that FoW did not have any legal targets in that turn. If you let him counter that Lackey you knowingly violate rules.

JUDGE!

Players at my store believed that Lackey was still a legal target for FoW and FoW would resolve, it just wouldn't do anything. I'd like to hear a ruling on this...

According to this thread the counterspell resolves, it just doesn't do anything...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=415528

[jrw1985]

R2 Reanimator
G1 on the Play I opened a hand of Lackey, Prospector, Thalia, Plateau, Waste and whatever. I make a mistake right off the bat. I Play Skirk T1 so I can sac Skirk fo mana to play Thalia T2 and Waste his land. What I should have done was play Lackey T1, Lackey in the Skirk T2, Play Thalia, blow up his land. That would have allowed me to drop more cards from hand and put a faster clock on him. Instead i went for the first line of play, and he was able to play enough lands to win through the Thalia.

God damn it I punted this game so hard! By leading with Skirk instead of Lackey I threw away a huge amount of tempo.

What happened was i got stuck on the idea of playing Thalia + Waste T2. In order to do that I needed the Skirk in play so I could have 2 mana to cast Thalia (Plateau + Skirk sac) and still have a Land drop to Waste his Underground Sea.

What I failed to realize was that with Lackey in hand I could have played Lackey T1, use its attack to Cheat in Skirk T2, Then sac skirk for mana, cast Thalia, then Waste his U Sea. Then I would have hit for 3 the next turn instead of 2, and I would have been able to develop my board 1 turn quicker, and I ended up losing that game because of that 1 turn. Fuck. I hate retrospect!

[Climax]

JUDGE!

Players at my store believed that Lackey was still a legal target for FoW and FoW would resolve, it just wouldn't do anything. I'd like to hear a ruling on this...

According to this thread the counterspell resolves, it just doesn't do anything...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=415528




Lackey is still a legal target! Just because it is uncounterable does not mean FoW can't be used on it any more. It just won't have any effect. (Besides pumping Goyf maybe ;) )

[GoboLord]

Lackey is still a legal target! Just because it is uncounterable does not mean FoW can't be used on it any more. It just won't have any effect. (Besides pumping Goyf maybe ;) )

Holy shit, 8 year of magic and still learning something new about card interactions with my precious goblin deck! Thanks, you two.
@ Jon: Now I understand your dillema. Next time chop his hand off if he wants to up his FoW from the graveyard. He'll always remember his wrongdoing...

[magicmerl]

2nd Week in a row with Goblins just ouside of the SCG Top 8!

Goblins

Cedric Phillips

9th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 4/21/2013

Creatures (29)
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Lands (24)
3 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Spells (7)
4 Aether Vial
3 Tarfire

Sideboard
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Angel of Despair
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben


He's running pretty much the same list I was only MD had -3 Thalia, +3 Tarfire, -2 Piledriver, -1 Plateau, +3 Rishadan Port, -1 Skirk Prospector, +1 TSH. The MD is a little more focused on beating creature decks, which I think is the right call. Can't say I dig the 4 Angel of Despair in the SB. They always seemed too narrow.

Anywho, Congrats to Cedric!
I like this list, the thing I like the most is how he went up to 24 lands to accommodate Ports AND the white splash.

I think I would make these changes:
- 3 Tarfire
+ 3 Piledriver (IMO the deck needs a critical mass of early beaters and this guy gives you free wins when the opponent stumbles)
- Mountain
+ Plateau (vs opposing wastelands I still want my white spells)
- Krenko
+ SGC (more removal, more nut draws)
SB changes
- 3 Relic of Progenitus, - Thalia
+ 4 Rest in Peace (better GY hate, fire and forget)
- 3 Angel of Despair, - TSH
+ 4 Chalice of the Void (better storm/high tide/RUG hate)


So no.. Stingscourger will not work. This has been discussed before.
That must be why I listed these goblins for the ETB trigger: MWM, Matron, Ringleader, SGC.

Good job nitpicking nothing.

[Avatara]

That must be why I listed these goblins for the ETB trigger: MWM, Matron, Ringleader, SGC.

Good job nitpicking nothing.Stingscourger has a ETB trigger.. but it's removed from the stack when there's no legal target; hence the active player gets priority.

You stated: any goblin with an ETB ability (MWM, Matron, Ringleader, SGC) will do.

And yes nitpicking will make you win so it's pretty essential to play flawless or detect when someone is does invalid stuff.

[GoboLord]

Stingscourger has a ETB trigger.. but it's removed from the stack when there's no legal target; hence the active player gets priority.

You stated: any goblin with an ETB ability (MWM, Matron, Ringleader, SGC) will do.

And yes nitpicking will make you win so it's pretty essential to play flawless or detect when someone is does invalid stuff.

Agreed. (I'm looking at you, Force of Will, that just target my uncounterable Goblin Lackey :wink: )