[Deck] Goblins

[Dice_Box]

1. Is Karakas viable if I'm not running Thalia main? I do run one Krenko, though...
Personal choice there. Tho Karakas can save your legends but my preferred use is as a weapon against SnT. Bouncing a cheated Legend back to it's owner's hand. This option is very limited though and thus brings into debate the cards use over a more traditional land hate card.


2. To run Thalia main or not to run her main? And what to cut?
This is a meta call. Nothing wrong with having her in the side. If I had to cut from your deck I think I would personally take out MwM but others will have better idea's. Its just my gut, I am sure there are better idea's tho.


3. I know there will be Storm (there are always three+ guys playing it in my meta), so I was thinking MBT > Chalice. However, there is a lot of RUG, Thresh and the occasional Zoo (!). What do you guys think?
I might get shot for suggesting this but if you are thinking you will see lots of Red splashes, siding in King might not be a bad plan. RUG it will help you and against Zoo it will too. The question is what colour splash is Threash?


4. After the mentioning of Tear/ Wear I have tested it a little and it was not to bad. Still, wouldn't Disenchant be a better substitute?
If your running Wear // Tear I would stay with it. The advantage over Disenchant is that, one it costs less to use it to kill an Artifact and, two, you can kill an Artifact AND and enchantment.


5. I love the 2/2 split between Relic and RiP, but is this to much gravehate?
No. Four is not. If you end up against Dredge or Reanimator you want Grave hate as soon as you can get it. 4 is more or less the Min.

[Chatto]

Thank you for your reply, Dice_Box. I think Goblin King ain't that bad of a suggestion. I'll probably cut a 'knesis for him.

[GoboLord]

Hey Warchiefs,

attended a tourney today and here's the short report + list.

//MANA (23)
4 Caverns, 4 Wasteland, 4 Ports
5 Fecthies
1 Plateau
1 Badlands
1 Karakas

//CORE (26)
...

//OTHERS (11)
3 Thalia
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

Sideboard
4 Chalice
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Relic of PRogenitus
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Tuktuk Scrapper


Round 1: Death & Taxes (0-2)
Round 2: MUD (2-1)
Round 3: Omniscience (2-0)
Round 4: Death & Taxes (1-2)
Round 5: Dredge (0-2)

Thoughts
* Cabal Therapy was worth the slots. It's a very good card. I mostly included it to against Show & Tells and that's what I used it for (as you can see).
* Sulfur Elemental: I chose to play the Elementals over Pyrokinesis, because I had a very clear view of my metagame and I expected to Death & Taxes as the only aggro deck. Sulfur Elemental first looked superior to Pyrokinesis, when I only need it for THIS specific matchup. However, it turned it that it wasn't nearly as good as looked on the 1st glance. Here's a little exercise:

(1) Which creatures of D&T have toughess 1?
Mother of Runes, Thalia, Mangara of Corondor, Aven Mindcensor and Flickerwisp

(2) Which cards does D&T side out after game 1?
Thalia and Mangara of Corondor

(3) What does Sulfur Elemental do with the remaining creatures?
* Mother of Runes ---> becomes 2/0 and dies
* Flickerwisp ---> becomes 4/0 and dies
* Aven Mindcensor ---> becomes 3/0 and dies
* Stoneforge Mystic ---> becomes 2/1
* Phyrexian Revoker ---> not affected
...and now comes the important part...
* Serra Avenger ---> 4/2 Flying, Vigiliance
* Mirran Crusader ---> 3/1 Doublestrike

I concluded that the drawbacks (Avenger + Crusader) outweigh the benefits (killing Mother, Flickerwisp, Mindcensor), which makes Sulfur Elemental a really bad cardchoice.
I lost both rounds (round 1 and 4) to exactly those creatures (and admittedly to some mulligans). The point is: while Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystics and Flickerwisp (@ Vial) are certainly problematic, I think that the real KILLERS are Serra Avenger and Mirran Crusader and that we must at all costs handle them. SUlfur Elemental pumps them (and make them even stronger) while only Pyrokinesis, Anarchy, Virtue's Ruin and Lightning Bolt are realy capable of handling them.

[Sandro95]

Greetings, fellow warchiefs! I went to a legacy tournament yesterday. There were about 40 people there and I ended up in the top 8, bringing home a revised Savannah and getting half the entry fee back. Here is the list i used:
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
3 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Badlands

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Shattering Spree

I prepared myself by repeatedly telling myself to strive for perfect plays, and went on to face of against RUG Delver in my first match. RUG is a deck I haven't played against a lot, but the games ended up as I imagine they usually do in this matchup. My opponent played some creatures. I played more creatures and gempalmed his Delvers. 2-0

Round 2 I faced Burn. I saw a fire and lightning mountain out of his deck and guessed correctly about his deck choice. Game one he burned me down to a low life total, but then somehow ran out of gas and I won. Game two two chalices in my opening hand did the trick, along with the lands needed to cast them, a Goblin Chieftain blocking a Goblin Guide and a third chalice of the top, just in case. I made a misplay here playing a goblin piledriver into my own chalice, not using cavern of souls. ;)

My round 3 opponent was playing twelve post, and I managed to get a really quick start game 1. However, Glacial Chasm stalled the game for quite a while, but I got there after a while. I was very close to making a fatal error here, sacrificing over half my army Skirk Prospector + Siege-Gang Commander, when my opponent still had the glacial chasm in play. Game 2 I lost pretty quickly. Game 3 if I remember correctly went somewhat similiarly to game 1. Highlights of this match consisted of gempalming a Kozilek, Butcher of Truth to death, and winning because my opponent attacking with Emrakul would cause enough triggers for my Goblin Sharpshooter to kill of my opponent.

Round 4 I was up against Jund and lost. I have trouble with the Jund and Four color Cascade match ups, as they have so many good cards against Goblins (Engineered Plague, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Punishing Fire and lots of other removal). I lost 0-2.

Round 5 I was downpaired and my opponent was kind enough to give me the free win as his chances of making top 8 were minimal, whereas I could now safely draw into the top 8. Funny how everyone who made top 8 managed to draw into it whit no risk of not making it. :)

Round 6: ID

Top 8:

I was lucky enough to face of against what was propably my far best match up in the top 8, a blue black control deck with a faeries subtheme. 2-0

My second match in the top 8 was against Bug Delver, and I lost 0-2. I was pretty exhausted at this point, and I might have played better if I had had more energy. My Bug Delver opponent went on to win the whole thing and I went home with my new Savannah, and some money, feeling pretty good overall, having placed in the top 8 in my first "major" legacy event. :)

Thoughts on the deck:

I only recently aquired the two Rishadan Ports, and I absolutely love them. However, I want to go back to five basic lands, as before I never had any problems with not having enough basics or fetch targets, but I came pretty close this time. I'm considering dropping the black splash, playing Mind-Break Traps over Cabal Therapies in the sideboard.

I like playing many Goblin Chieftains, but will propably move to a 3-3 split between him and Warchief. Playing 3 of both Mogg War Marshal and Piledriver felt right as well. The one Shattering Spree seems a bit random too. The rest feels pretty solid. Chalice is great in so many match ups and leyline of the void is great against Dredge, Reanimator, Lands, some Nic-Fit Variants, and others, including Oops, All Spells. Pyrokines is pretty sweet to have in the aggro match ups as well. :)

Questions and feedback are appreciated. :)

[LeoCop 90]

SUlfur Elemental pumps them (and make them even stronger) while only Pyrokinesis, Anarchy, Virtue's Ruin and Lightning Bolt are realy capable of handling them.

Pyrokinesis is the best card to side in against a lot of creature based decks, but given that you expected to face only death and taxes as an aggro deck i think you'd better have sided Anarchy or Virtue's Ruin. They're both a lot better than Sulfur Elemental ... once you resolve anarchy you should win the matchup easily, because they will have on the field only batterskull or jitte. The only concern is that the mana cost of 4 (or 3 for virtue's ruin) might be an issue against a deck whose gameplan revolves around mana denial, but they will probably side out thalia game 2 (as you said), and they do not have a very fast clock so it is reasonable to reach 4 mana to cast an anarchy. All in all i don't see any reason to prefer sulfur elemental over anarchy.

I lost to death and taxes too during my last tournament, both of the times mostly because my opponent resolved a vial before me and then "reset" my vial targeting it with flickerwisp. Aniway I don't think they have a particular advantage over us, it is a close matchup and our main goals are bury them in card advantage and possibly destroy their equipments.

Congrats for the top 4 , Sandro ! It must be nice to gempalm away a kozilek :)

[GoboLord]

Thoughts on the deck:

I only recently aquired the two Rishadan Ports, and I absolutely love them. However, I want to go back to five basic lands, as before I never had any problems with not having enough basics or fetch targets, but I came pretty close this time. I'm considering dropping the black splash, playing Mind-Break Traps over Cabal Therapies in the sideboard.


First of all, thank you for the report and congratz on the finish.
Just two days ago I talked to a friend of mine about my sideboard. In fact, he didn't like the Mindbreak Traps that were in my sideboard and we agreed that Cabal Therapy is a way more powerful card. Not only that, Cabal Therapy is obviously much more flexible than Trap. I included Cabal Therapy to have something against Show and Tell decks, but I can imagine that it's also a better choice vs. Storm-combo. I found out that, when casting Cabal Therapy you are often in a WIN-WIN situation. Let's consider the following:

You cast Cabal Therapy.
Your opponent (storm-combo) has 6 cards on his hand, one of which is Brainstorm.

Now there are two options: (1) he reacts to Cabal Therapy by casting Brainstrom. (2) he's a man and lets Cabal Therapy resolve.
Now back to our WIN-WIN situation:

(1) You name something that produces mana - some enabler (Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual). IF you don't hit anything you have another chance next turn. WIN: you effectively discarded his Brainstorm, which they really DONT want to cast in response to anything. Brainstorm is meant to find combo-pieces, preferably with a fetchland in play to het rid of unwanted cards. In this case he HAS to keep unwanted cards in his hand.

(2) You name Brainstorm, then flashback Threapy and name something relevant. There are cases when he does not have Brainstorm. In that case I think it's still correct to name Brainstorm first, because: let's assume you THINK he does not have Brainstorm and you name something like "LED" with the first cast. You don't hit LED and figure out that he DOES have a Brainstorm that he can now use in response on the second activation. That's something you absolutely don't want, bceause your Therapy has become useless at that point.

So, if you want my advice: Don't switch Therapy for Mindbreak Trap. Actually I was thinking about running Cabal Therapy even in MD because it is a good MD choice against S&T decks (which admittedly might be relevant only for my meta) and it's also randomly good to "counter" Stoneforge Mystic's ability (you pick the equipment that he just tutored). However, running CT in MD is a whole different story...

Second:
You experienced some problems with you "low" basicland count. I think that this can easily be resolved by cutting 1-2 fetchlands. Yesterday I was running a 3-colored list with only 5 fetchlands and 1 copy of each dualland and manafixing worked great. You splash black only for 3 SB cards, which means that you don't need the Badlands in G1. My advice would be to go like this:
-2 fetchalnds, +1 Mountain, +1 Rishadan Port
OR
-1 Badlands, -1 fetchland ,+1 Mountain, +1 Rishadan Port

[Nelis]

Why not lowering the fetchland count by playing 4 Aunties Hovel and 4 Badlands. Less, pain, less susceptible to stifle and less deck thinning.

[GoboLord]

Why not lowering the fetchland count by playing 4 Aunties Hovel and 4 Badlands. Less, pain, less susceptible to stifle and less deck thinning.

...or you just shake his hand when he Stilfe-s your fetchland. Then you play a Ringleader.
You only need a fetchland-less manabase if you desperately want to shut down Death Rite Shaman's mana-ability (not that non-fetchies will do the whole job though).
Apart from that I don't know how deck-thining and fetch-pain is relevant.

[Nelis]

...or you just shake his hand when he Stilfe-s your fetchland. Then you play a Ringleader.
You only need a fetchland-less manabase if you desperately want to shut down Death Rite Shaman's mana-ability (not that non-fetchies will do the whole job though).
Apart from that I don't know how deck-thining and fetch-pain is relevant.

I'm sorry but those are no serious counter arguments. How are you going to play that ringleader without mana? Do you always expect a turn one vial or Lackey?

If I play Goblins, especially in a 23 land build, I don't want my deck thinned. I need my lands. And why is pain not relevant, you don't always win on turn 4 with Goblins. Please give me good reasons why fetch is preferred over a fetchless manabase. Otherwise I don't see why you would chance getting screwed by stifles and fetchpain even if the downsides of deck-thinning and fetch-pains are marginal.

Oh, Just in case someone brings up the wasteland argument. The best answer to wasteland is not playing less non-basics but more.

[Dice_Box]

Please give me good reasons why fetch is preferred over a fetchless manabase.
Meta, cards a person owns, opening options to pull basics or non basics, opening options to pull different coloured dual lands, option to shuffle deck if a card is placed on the bottom of it (Ringleader), option to shuffle deck if you're playing Sensation Gorger, protection against a active wasteland. I am sure there are more. Not saying either is a bad option but there definitely are reasons to run Fetches.

Note deck thinning is not one of those options.


Oh, Just in case someone brings up the wasteland argument. The best answer to wasteland is not playing less non-basics but more.
I will bite. How did you come to this theory? Seems counter intuitive.

[GoboLord]

I'm sorry but those are no serious counter arguments. How are you going to play that ringleader without mana? Do you always expect a turn one vial or Lackey?

If I play Goblins, especially in a 23 land build, I don't want my deck thinned. I need my lands. And why is pain not relevant, you don't always win on turn 4 with Goblins. Please give me good reasons why fetch is preferred over a fetchless manabase. Otherwise I don't see why you would chance getting screwed by stifles and fetchpain even if the downsides of deck-thinning and fetch-pains are marginal.

Oh, Just in case someone brings up the wasteland argument. The best answer to wasteland is not playing less non-basics but more.

Before I start I want to clarify that I'm talking about Sander's decklist, which is MONO RED in MD with BLACK cards in SB.
The most important reason not to run 4 Auntie's Hovel and 4 Badlands is that you give away information. I don't want my opponent to know what color I splash. As anectodal evidence I'll quote my opponent from yesterday's Round 2: "If I had seen the Badland in G1 I had boarded Leyline of Sanctity."
Especially combodecks want to know what hatecards they need to prepare for. B-splash (or rather: Cabal Therapy) is a rare choice for Goblins nowadays. With 4 Hovels and 4 Badlands they see discard coming and the card loses it's surprise value. I mean: if you don't expect discard in a Goblin deck you will use your Ponder and Brainstorm far different than if you do expect it.
Same goes for Canadian Thresh or Elves or Maverick: lets say they see your B splash in G1, then they will expect and try to play around Perish.

I'm not saying that Stifle @ fetchland is NEVER relevant, but we have about 30 better targets for the card (Wasteland, Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Matron, Ringleader, Siege-Gang). SO, Stifle @ fetchland is a bad move in 99% of the games you play, just like Wasteland @ Mishra'S Factory when your opponent has a Crucible of Worlds in play. I think that both plays MIGHT be relevant in VERY SPECIAL cases.
I agree with you that Wasteland is not an argument against nonbasics, since even mono R goblin lists run more non-basics than basics. We always have enough waste-able targets, unless you cut Cavern of Souls from the deck.
Fetchpain is almost never relevant, unless you run 7 or more fetchlands. I suggested 5-6 btw.
We can argue about thinning out the deck, but that wont get us anywhere. You say you want to draw lands. I say I want to draw goblins. We are both right, but neither of us has point in the fetchland vs. Hovel discussion.

I have been over this topic many times and I'm not willing to warm the wholöe thing up again. We've had an exhaustive discussion about that issue at aboput page 10-30 of this thread.

[Nelis]

Fair enough, if its only for a sb I could agree. I can get into your argument against combo decks. But if you play fetches your opponent should wonder why.

Why is it bad for us for green creature decks to hold back their creatures because they expect perish?

My biggest 'fear' is that my first land will get stifled especially game one but maybe I fear stifles too much. If you think of going for them main then I would definitely go for a fetchless manabase.

If you think of going for cabal Therapy main main then I would definitely go for a fetchless manabase.



I will bite. How did you come to this theory? Seems counter intuitive.

I think I have read it on this forum. Its been something I've known so long I can't remember any specifics but it always stuck with me.

In a way, it also has to do with Stifle and Waste land. Throughout my magic-life I've been screwed too often by Tempo decks that Stifle my turn one fetch and Wasteland on my turn 2 dual because I wanted to take the 'save' route by going basic then dual.

[LeoCop 90]

The most obvious reason to play more fetchlands over 4 badlands and 4 aunti'es hovel is price of progress. Against burn, fetching for a basic land is 1 damage while every nonbasic you drop is potentially 2 damages for you. Burn is not very popular, but now that we run 4 cavern of souls we should try to prepare our deck also against it (chalice , thorn of ametyst or thalia in sideboard are all good choices).

[magicmerl]

I'm sorry but those are no serious counter arguments. How are you going to play that ringleader without mana? Do you always expect a turn one vial or Lackey?

If I play Goblins, especially in a 23 land build, I don't want my deck thinned. I need my lands. And why is pain not relevant, you don't always win on turn 4 with Goblins. Please give me good reasons why fetch is preferred over a fetchless manabase. Otherwise I don't see why you would chance getting screwed by stifles and fetchpain even if the downsides of deck-thinning and fetch-pains are marginal.

Oh, Just in case someone brings up the wasteland argument. The best answer to wasteland is not playing less non-basics but more.
Let's say for the sake of arguement, that you are running 23 lands, and maxing out 4 Caverns, Wastes and Ports. That leaves you 11 slots. That's NOT ENOUGH to run 4 Mountain, 4 Aunties Hovel and 4 Badlands. I guess you run only 3 Hovels. That gives you 7 black sources for your spells, which is not enough.

Whereas with fetches you could run 6 fetches, 3 mountain and 2 badlands, which effectively gives you more black sources.

It also facilitates triple colour decks with the addition of a single dual land (hello Krosan Grip).


Sideboard
4 Chalice
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Relic of PRogenitus
3 Sulfur Elemental
1 Tuktuk Scrapper


Round 1: Death & Taxes (0-2)
Round 2: MUD (2-1)
Round 3: Omniscience (2-0)
Round 4: Death & Taxes (1-2)
Round 5: Dredge (0-2)

Thoughts
* Cabal Therapy was worth the slots. It's a very good card. I mostly included it to against Show & Tells and that's what I used it for (as you can see).
* Sulfur Elemental: I chose to play the Elementals over Pyrokinesis, because I had a very clear view of my metagame and I expected to Death & Taxes as the only aggro deck. Sulfur Elemental first looked superior to Pyrokinesis, when I only need it for THIS specific matchup. However, it turned it that it wasn't nearly as good as looked on the 1st glance. Here's a little exercise:
Yeah, I agree with you that Pyrokinesis is much better than Sulfur Elemental in that matchup. My other thoughts are, no Prospector and no Sharpshooter even SB? I mean... really?? I really like both vs DnT (and Prospector vs dredge) so, perhaps your final build hurt you vs the decks you faced? I mean, is the 2nd Stingscourger really that much better than the option on the 1st Sharpshooter?

Also, I can get with Cabal Therapy, but do you really need it vs combo, given 3 Thalia and 4 CotV vs combo already?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Let's say for the sake of arguement, that you are running 23 lands, and maxing out 4 Caverns, Wastes and Ports. That leaves you 11 slots. That's NOT ENOUGH to run 4 Mountain, 4 Aunties Hovel and 4 Badlands.

If the goal is to always have access to black, and to counter Wasteland with redundancy, why play the 4 Mountains? You can't fetch them to protect your mana base so why not cut them for 4 Blood Crypt or something similar (Graven Cairns perhaps)? Then the percentage of getting black when you need it is higher than a fetch land manabase although still exposed to Wasteland (while dodging Stifle).

A lot of these decisions come down to personal preference. It appears Goblin decks running a fetch land mana base tend to position higher than Goblin decks running 100% non-basics. I'm sure popularity effects this trend greatly but popularity also tends to favor the better strategy.

[FTW]

If the goal is to always have access to black, and to counter Wasteland with redundancy, why play the 4 Mountains? You can't fetch them to protect your mana base so why not cut them for 4 Blood Crypt or something similar (Graven Cairns perhaps)? Then the percentage of getting black when you need it is higher than a fetch land manabase although still exposed to Wasteland (while dodging Stifle).

A lot of these decisions come down to personal preference. It appears Goblin decks running a fetch land mana base tend to position higher than Goblin decks running 100% non-basics. I'm sure popularity effects this trend greatly but popularity also tends to favor the better strategy.

Wastelock
Back to Basics
Price of Progress
Blood Moon
Veteran Explorer


Yes, even Veteran Explorer. You know how much it sucks for a mana-denial deck to get double Therapied and have your opponent get 2 free lands ahead of you?

I guess Blood Moon isn't a problem 99% of the time, but when I was playing MD black spells (Warren Wierding) I ran a basic swamp so I could still cast things under Moon or with Waste protection. Helped in several games!

[Tokugawa]

Is there any successful Vial deck, which has low or 0 basic lands? I don't think so.

And...if a red-based deck dies to a blood moon...It would be one of the biggest shame in the history of Legacy.

[Dice_Box]

I do not think there is. I know for me the reason is more about my meta and less about what would possibly improve the deck Mana wise. I mean I know 3 decks with Path to Ex, one with Back to Basics, anyone that borrows my burn deck is going to be playing Price and there is I think a total of 7 decks out of about a 35 meta that have Wastes.

Now if you look at that spread and do not even add in uncommon cards like Veteran Explorer or Ghost Quarter you see a list that will punish quite hard a deck that runs nothing but Non basics. Wasteland is often given as the golden fear when thinking about running Basics and non basics but I think about this,

Turn four, you have opened, have Port, Cavern and a Dual on the table. The other guy has burnt out most of your cheat critters and you are thinking this game might go into turn 7 or 8. He the drops Price and you now have lost 6. Thats shorting the clock in his favor. Game ends not long after with a loss.

Game two you open with a fetch, but alas you have no Basics. You get your lands and you play them, but soon after your looking again at a turn 4 clock, the reason, Price. A cheap card in a cheap deck that anyone can put together and come along to a game. I mean most of the cards in burn at Modern legal so its a good transition deck.

Now blood moon will not really hurt us, if anything it opens doors for us, but Price and Back to Basics, well they are not exactly rare and they hurt. Waste is just icing.

So I guess the moral of my long winded and mostly unnecessary post is, run basics. This is legacy, you will need them.

[GoboLord]

And...if a red-based deck dies to a blood moon...It would be one of the biggest shame in the history of Legacy.

You do realize that you don't lose the game when Blood Moon resolves? I mean even if suddenfly your Rishadan Port and Wastelands, and fetchlands, and Badlands, and Autnities Hovel are all Mountain...then what?

[magicmerl]

Is there any successful Vial deck, which has low or 0 basic lands? I don't think so.

And...if a red-based deck dies to a blood moon...It would be one of the biggest shame in the history of Legacy.
My list only runs 2 mountain. I don't know if you consider that 'low' or not.

Gobolord, he was saying that we sholdn't fear Blood moon, when someone listed it as a non-basic hoser. You guys are agreeing with each other.

[fimo]

local turney again, same list as last time, for reference:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 vial

4 thalia
3 Mogg War Marshal

1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief

4 Goblin Ringleader
1 krenko
1 lightning crafter
1 tuktuk scrapper


Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
3 Mountain
1 karakas
2 plateau
5 red fetches



R1: mono black pox: 1-1
R2: aggro loam: 1-2
R3: D&T: 2-1
R4: aggro loam: 2-0
R5: mono red sneak attack/through the breach: 2-1
R6: aggro loam 2-1



ended up 4-1-1 and got into prices. After the first 2 rounds I was demoralized and I wanted to drop but luckily I stayed and it turned out to be a good decision...never give up!
I have no idea on why I met so many aggro loam, it is a rare deck in my meta but somehow I managed to get paired with it half of the matches. I thought me a lot though. Devastating dreams is a card and it hurted so badly... However, they have too few creatures to stop a lackey and a piece of grave hate seals the deal. Game 1 kill cofidant and keep rishadan-porting them away from having RR and it is game.
The main deck is going to remain like this, it works smoothly and I cannot pinpoint something I don t like.
When I dropped the green splash I was really concerned about not finding a good enough replacement for TSH and krosan grips. However, the white splash gets the job done and overall a more stable manabase outweights the power level of the second color splash in my opinion.

[GoboLord]

The main deck is going to remain like this, it works smoothly and I cannot pinpoint something I don t like.

Nice to see that you've found a list that suits you. Also, thank you for reporting the results. I Agree with you strategy vs Aggro Loam. Stingscourger is a very good card against them, if you want to prepare for that MU better.

[fimo]

I Agree with you strategy vs Aggro Loam. Stingscourger is a very good card against them, if you want to prepare for that MU better.

can you elaborate a bit more on stingscourger? are you thinking about neglecting the +1/+1 counters of countryside crusher/scavenging ooze?

[Dice_Box]

Found a trick the new rules let us do. When I played on Tuesday, I had a few free games. One was against a blue deck that I locked with Thalia. He hit her with unsummon and then I put another down with Vial. (Had one in hand and one on the table.)

He went to town in the vial tap trigger and beat me with some instant's. Here is a very particular situation where we can use the rules to our advanced.

Thalia in the table.
Removal targeting Thalia.
Response, tap Vial, enter second Thalia, kill the one that is the target of the removal when she resolves.
The removal spell has no target and fizzles, we lose a Thalia but her effect never stops.

Anyone see anything I missed?

[GoboLord]

can you elaborate a bit more on stingscourger? are you thinking about neglecting the +1/+1 counters of countryside crusher/scavenging ooze?

Exactly. Crusher, Ooze and Knight of the Reliquary... all of them are quite slow and need some time to get going (just think about how annoying it is for your opponent to relove a KotR, then use it to fetch some lands for let's say 2 turns, then - as soon as KotR has build up a body to attack with - you bounce it. Stingscourger (and Warren Weirding if you are willing to splash B) is a very good answer to those cards. Not at last because of his reach (Gempalm Incinerator, Lightning Bolt and Tarfire will never actually kill one of those critters). Stingscourgers body is also important as it can timewalk them: bounce one critter, block the other AND he can ocassionally attack, if you got a Warchief or CHieftain in play. As you already said: keeping them from RR (and RRR) is essential. However, this won't work for long, so you better need to end the game quickly. Stingscourger provides the tempo-advantage that you need for this MU. As long as they don't resolve Devastating Dream or Seismic Assault, everything is fine. After all, none of their beater has trample or any other kind of evasion. They are just big.
I mean, I don't know how exactly Aggro Loam decks look like nowadays, but back then when the deck became popular I always felt well equipped for the MU (not at last because I've favored Stingscourger#2 over Gempalm #4) and I think that some things have to go seriously wrong for you to lose the match.

If you don't agree we should discuss this, since Aggro Loam seems to be a deck in your meta.


@ Dice:
It works exactly as you described and it'S important to watch out for those situatiuon but I don't think that "not breaking the chain" of increasing spell costs by :1: is too important for us.

[fimo]

Exactly. Crusher, Ooze and Knight of the Reliquary... all of them are quite slow and need some time to get going (just think about how annoying it is for your opponent to relove a KotR, then use it to fetch some lands for let's say 2 turns, then - as soon as KotR has build up a body to attack with - you bounce it. Stingscourger (and Warren Weirding if you are willing to splash B) is a very good answer to those cards. Not at last because of his reach (Gempalm Incinerator, Lightning Bolt and Tarfire will never actually kill one of those critters). Stingscourgers body is also important as it can timewalk them: bounce one critter, block the other AND he can ocassionally attack, if you got a Warchief or CHieftain in play. As you already said: keeping them from RR (and RRR) is essential. However, this won't work for long, so you better need to end the game quickly. Stingscourger provides the tempo-advantage that you need for this MU. As long as they don't resolve Devastating Dream or Seismic Assault, everything is fine. After all, none of their beater has trample or any other kind of evasion. They are just big.
I mean, I don't know how exactly Aggro Loam decks look like nowadays, but back then when the deck became popular I always felt well equipped for the MU (not at last because I've favored Stingscourger#2 over Gempalm #4) and I think that some things have to go seriously wrong for you to lose the match.

If you don't agree we should discuss this, since Aggro Loam seems to be a deck in your meta.


I agree with it. stingscourgers and MWM will buy you all the time in the world to get the matron/ringleader engine going. The aggro loam I faced were less beatdown though. They played chalice main board, punishing fire, dark confidant, devastating dreams, knight of the reliquary and burning wish. I didn t see neither ooze nor crusher. I guess there are quite different approaces to the decklist. However, my game losses were due to either punishing fire lock or due to mana screw (devastating dreams, loam-waste, abrupt decay-vial). I was actually not 100% confident about what to cut from the main deck to make room for 3 pieces of grave hate (1 relic + 2 rest in peace) and 2 disenchant. I sided in disenchant because I was fearing sesmic assault and engineered plague, at worst I could have destroyed sylvan lybrary or mox diamond (they are color hungry). I cut 3 thalia, 1 tuktuk, 1 gempalm incinerator. What do you think about it? I ended up regretting cutting 3 thalia because she slows them down a lot but I did not want too many white spells and I didn t know what else to cut. Were the 2 disenchant too paranoic to side in your opinion?

[Tyrio]

I agree with it. stingscourgers and MWM will buy you all the time in the world to get the matron/ringleader engine going. The aggro loam I faced were less beatdown though. They played chalice main board, punishing fire, dark confidant, devastating dreams, knight of the reliquary and burning wish. I didn t see neither ooze nor crusher. I guess there are quite different approaces to the decklist. However, my game losses were due to either punishing fire lock or due to mana screw (devastating dreams, loam-waste, abrupt decay-vial). I was actually not 100% confident about what to cut from the main deck to make room for 3 pieces of grave hate (1 relic + 2 rest in peace) and 2 disenchant. I sided in disenchant because I was fearing sesmic assault and engineered plague, at worst I could have destroyed sylvan lybrary or mox diamond (they are color hungry). I cut 3 thalia, 1 tuktuk, 1 gempalm incinerator. What do you think about it? I ended up regretting cutting 3 thalia because she slows them down a lot but I did not want too many white spells and I didn t know what else to cut. Were the 2 disenchant too paranoic to side in your opinion?

Sounds like Jeff Hoogland's 4C Loam list, which he claims has a very good matchup against Goblins. I imagine Devastating Dreams completely annihilates the deck.

[magicmerl]

I'm not really sure I understand the point of this discussion. Aggro-loam gets totally destroyed by Rest in Peace. Punishing Fire, Countryside Crusher, Life from the Loam. Nerfed.

From there it almost doesn't matter what the rest of our deck is, as long as Aether Vial is part of the plan. A bunch of durdly goblins is enough to get the job done.


I was actually not 100% confident about what to cut from the main deck to make room for 3 pieces of grave hate (1 relic + 2 rest in peace) and 2 disenchant.
I think that it's a mistake to try an fight the deck on too many fronts. I'd settle for hating the graveyard and having creature removal for their crushers and bobs. So in your shoes I'd just bring in the 3 GY hate (I personally run 4) and I'd take out cards like Sharpshooter, Prospector and 1 MWM.


I sided in disenchant because I was fearing sesmic assault and engineered plague, at worst I could have destroyed sylvan lybrary or mox diamond (they are color hungry).
This line of play sounds fine on the surface of things, but I think you are better off attacking the GY instead, since that's where the REAL power of their deck lies. p.s. I think that Wear // Tear is just strictly better than Disenchant for us. And you don't want to oversideboard too much, since that slows the deck down a whole heap and you run the risk of having the wrong answer to their threat, since they attack along multiple axes (Bob=card advantage, Goyf/Crusher=huge beater, Loam=CA, Devastating Dreams=mana denial + creature control, Seismic Assault=creature control, Engineered Plague=creauure control, Pyroclasm=creature control).

I personally see us as two midrange decks fighting each other, so I see the battle as a card advantage war. That means not caring about 1-for-1 answers. I want to be able to 'turn off' their engines. Seismic Assault and Devastating Dreams are incredibly fair cards if the opponent doesn't have access to Life from the Loam. So by answering Loam we can kinda answer all three of them. Dark Confidant is answered by our normal removal mechanisms (so I wouldn't SB out Gempalms).

Once their CA engine is nerfed, it's just a matter of us systematically playing around mass removal (i.e. don't overextend into sweepers and run out of gas).

[FTW]

@ Dice:
It works exactly as you described and it'S important to watch out for those situatiuon but I don't think that "not breaking the chain" of increasing spell costs by :1: is too important for us.

Then again, you'd have to wonder about the MU... if the opponent cast Unsummon on Thalia while you have an untapped Vial @ 2, regardless of whether you have another one in hand, you can conclude one of three things:
1) He is bad at Magic
2) Somehow card disadvantage favours his gameplan
3) He needs to cast some cheap instants sans-cost increase ASAP and is trying to create a brief window where he can do stuff cheaply (e.g. Tin Fins going Dark Ritual -> Entomb -> Goryo)

In the case of 1 and 2, you win anyway. In the case of 3, this new Legend trick is pretty freaking awesome.

[GoboLord]

I'm not really sure I understand the point of this discussion. Aggro-loam gets totally destroyed by Rest in Peace. Punishing Fire, Countryside Crusher, Life from the Loam. Nerfed.

From there it almost doesn't matter what the rest of our deck is, as long as Aether Vial is part of the plan. A bunch of durdly goblins is enough to get the job done.


I think that it's a mistake to try an fight the deck on too many fronts. I'd settle for hating the graveyard and having creature removal for their crushers and bobs. So in your shoes I'd just bring in the 3 GY hate (I personally run 4) and I'd take out cards like Sharpshooter, Prospector and 1 MWM.


This line of play sounds fine on the surface of things, but I think you are better off attacking the GY instead, since that's where the REAL power of their deck lies. p.s. I think that Wear // Tear is just strictly better than Disenchant for us. And you don't want to oversideboard too much, since that slows the deck down a whole heap and you run the risk of having the wrong answer to their threat, since they attack along multiple axes (Bob=card advantage, Goyf/Crusher=huge beater, Loam=CA, Devastating Dreams=mana denial + creature control, Seismic Assault=creature control, Engineered Plague=creauure control, Pyroclasm=creature control).

I personally see us as two midrange decks fighting each other, so I see the battle as a card advantage war. That means not caring about 1-for-1 answers. I want to be able to 'turn off' their engines. Seismic Assault and Devastating Dreams are incredibly fair cards if the opponent doesn't have access to Life from the Loam. So by answering Loam we can kinda answer all three of them. Dark Confidant is answered by our normal removal mechanisms (so I wouldn't SB out Gempalms).

Once their CA engine is nerfed, it's just a matter of us systematically playing around mass removal (i.e. don't overextend into sweepers and run out of gas).

I have nothing to add since magicmerl explained my thoughts, which are:
* attack their graveyard (and their critters), not their enchantments/artifacts
* Tear//Wear is better than Disenchant
* play around those 2-3 Devastating Dreams with Vial and Matron/Ringleader

[jrw1985]

My new work blocks the Souce but for some reason allows me to view mtgsalvation. So I started reading their thread but had to stop after a poster had to point out to another poster that vial at 4 plus ringleader is a good combo.

In magic-related news I've gone 0-4 over my last two weeklies. It's pretty much just variance. 2 of those matches would have been improved with Leyline of the Void (Nic Fit and Zombies), so I may have to start siding that POS again.

[DredgingLoam]

Hey. I'm looking into possible building Goblins and I was wondering why it hasn't been performing well at larger tournaments.

[LeoCop 90]

I suppose the main reason is that few people play goblins. It has been played since legacy was born and now people are a bit bored :) another reason is that goblins is a meta-deck... you can't win if you play against a lot of combo decks, while you are likely to stomp any blue deck with countermagics and have a little advantage vs aggro.
Playing goblins mean that you like goblins. Aniway, this deck is still alive after 10 years (more or less) of legacy, so if you'll never make a mistake if you build it. And it is a lot of fun to play with the little green men.

[jrw1985]

Hey. I'm looking into possible building Goblins and I was wondering why it hasn't been performing well at larger tournaments.

It has a ridiculously high mana curve, a surprisingly janky mana base, DRS and Abrupt Decay give it conniptions, and it loses to combo decks. It's nowhere near the best deck in the format, so not many folks play it. And it's super easy to hate out when it is popular (E Plague).

That being said, it is super fun to play.

[ScatmanX]

Finally got a chance to play again.
A lgs made a tournament, and since it wasn't that big, I decided to went with something fun.
Been toying around with the idea for a while, and got to put it into test, so here's what I played:

UNDEAD GOBLINS
4 Badlands
2 Auntie's Hovel
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Urborg, Tomb of yaghmeiioemfnjth
4 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief

4 Mogg Warmarchall

1 Goblin Sharpshoter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander

2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator

3 Living Death

Sideboard:
1 Living Death
3 Pyrokinesis

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 CotV
1 Pyroblast

2 Boggart Shenannigans
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Living Death it's a hell of a fun card to play with. When you cast it in any grindy matchup, you usually win, and it's nice to have a 'oops, I win' button. 4 MWM to bring back, to use Prospector+SGC+Sharpshooter to combo kill someone is awesome.
The weird card on the SB is Boggart Shenannigans, and is there in place of Boartusk Liege as my card against Plague. Make all your dudes die, cast Living Death, they come back, and die again, and so does your opponent. Not saying it is a great plan, but fun as hell if works. So, let's go to what happened:

Match 1 - Reanimator
Game 1: I play first: Caverns Lackey. He plays fetch, Petal, Entomb, Reanimate on Iona. hm... I play Vial. He hits. I draw nothing,attack, and drop Warchief, with Piledriver on my hand. He swings. I draw nothing. I Port his fetch, and he lets it. if he cracked it, he'd die to Pilly. crap. 11 cards would win me the game on those 2 draws. oh well.

Side: +3 Therapy, +2 CotV, +1 Pyro, -3 Gempalm, -1 Shooter, -1 Ringleader, -1 Living Death

Game 2: I keep a T3 kill, and decided to go for it. He dies.

Side: -2 Living Death, +2 Trap.

Game 3: I Therapy only to see Sphinx and lands. He reanimates it 2 turns later. Sweet.
0-1

Match 2 - Merfolk
Game 1: He FoWs Lackey, plays Vial, and I play Vial. He plays 2 lords, Coralhelm, and 4 Mutavaults. Meanwhile, I block a lot, and got emptyhanded with Warchief on the table. I decided to up Vial to 4, and draw what? Of course, Ringleader, which gets me 4 goblins, which are enough to put me ahead with a Gempalm and Sharpshooter.

Side: +3 Kinesis, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Scrapper, -3 Living Death, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Prospector.

Game 2: Spreading Seas makes me have Islands, so even tohugh I have MWM to blocks, his 6 Lords swimn past them...

Game 3: I keep: 2x Ringleader, Warchief, Stingscourger, Lackey, Pyroblast, Mountain. Would you? Lackey connects trough a blocker, and I draw 2 lands in a row for an easy win.
1-1

Match 3 - Nic Fit
Game 1: It's boring. He therapies a dude, and Veteran gets us lands. but neither he or me have anything. Lackey connects twice without getting me anything. But then I draw a SGC and he dies 2 turns later.

Side: +1 Living Death, +2 Shenannigans, -2 Vial, -1 MWM.

Game 2: He plays Veteran Explorer. I play land. He plays Phyrexian Tower, sac Veteran, plays Veteran, plays Natural Order > Progenitus, and passes. I play my 5th land, and cast LIVING DEATH! fuck yeah! Even tohugh he played a 2nd Natural Order on his next turn, and I didn't find another Living Wish, it was worth a whole lot of laughs.

Game 3: I go down to 5, and play land+Vial. He plays shaman, then Pernicious Deed. I miss 3-4 landdrops in a row. When Vial is @3 he blows Deed. I search for Prospector with a Matron, draw land and play him. He does some stuff and plays a Heremit. I draw a 3rd land, look at my hand, look at my board (had 2 more goblins now) and sac them all to play a Living Death, bringging back Propector, Matron, Gempalm, and something else, and go for Boggart Shenannigans! He unfortunately plays Plague before I cast it. The fun thing is that next turn he wanted to play Liliana to kill my Warchief, but if he did that, Shenanigans would kill Lilliana! fun times. Well, the games goes on a little, and he finds Recurring Nightmare. I find another Living Death, that deals 7 dmg to him, gets me Warchief, a matron trigger, 2 Sting bounces, and a Piledriver. He almost dies, but Deed my team next turn, then search for the 5/3 beast that gains him 5 life, and start recurring it. I can't come back from that with another Plague on the table.
1-2

Match 3 - Lands
Game 1: He starts super slow, and so do I. Vial helps, but 2 Ports slow me down a lot, while Tabernacle kills my creatures. Unfortunately for him I get a lot of gas before he can start his engine, and haste>Tabernacle.

Side: +1 Living Death, +1 Scrapper, +2 CotV, +2 Shennanigans, -3 Gempalm, -2 Sting, -1 MWM.

Game 2: I keep 2 Vials. He destroys all my lands, but Scrapper destroys his Crucible, and stop his engine for some turns, while P.Fire kills my dudes (had 2 MWM, Tuktuk, 2 Ringleaders). I draw land, but don't play it, and next turn draw a Matron, that Vial in to get Prospector, to sac some dudes to play BOGGART SHENNANIGANS. He kills prospector in response. I keep swinging, and he keeps killing my dudes and being pinged. On a crucial turn, he finds Loam, and start recurring lands, getting 4 life a turn (went to 2 twice before this, and was going to be out of lands to sac next turn), and eventually finds a Chasm to lock me.

Game 3: Lackey connects, and a 2nd Lackey joins to put 2 Ringleaders into play, then a SGC, while with only 2 lands. He dredges Loam twice, but don't find Chasm/Tabernacle (1 turn too late) and is buried. A fun thing is that he cast Tormord's Crypt this game. Nice to see Living Death making my opponent's deck worse only by being on my deck.
2-2

I then concede to him because he's a frine, and I needed to go home.
The deck is a blast to play. Living Death turns games around that easily, and despite my results, I was the guy who had most fun in that tournamente (along with my last 2 opponents, because you just can't crack a laugh if Boggart Shannenigans shows up!)
That said, it is still much suboptimal. The deck needs a lot of cards on the MD to work, and squeezing them in is tough. Right now I needed at least a Chieftain, a Krenko, a Weridings, and maybe a 2nd Prospector, and have no idea what to cut. Playing without Wastelands (because of the curve) is not that great too...

That's it. Just needed to share this crazy idea. If someone ever try this out (which I doubt), let me know.

[jrw1985]

Question:

Is Wasteland still a good card?

At SCG St. Louis 6/8 of the top 8 ran FEWER than 20 lands. Since the curve has gotten so low is it even worth it anymore to trade land drops? Or is killing utility lands still important?

[GoboLord]

I draw a 3rd land, look at my hand, look at my board (had 2 more goblins now) and sac them all to play a Living Death, bringging back Propector, Matron, Gempalm, and something else, and go for Boggart Shenannigans! He unfortunately plays Plague before I cast it.
Told ya! :laugh:


If someone ever try this out (which I doubt), let me know.
I'm still pondering if I should try it next sunday. Maybe I'm in the mood to make people laugh, too :laugh:
Nice writing, thanks for that.

[Dice_Box]

Why run Living death over Bidding?

[ScatmanX]

Why run Living death over Bidding?
To kill opponents creatures (like Progenitus).

[goblinsplayer]

Hello, I'm just wondering what splash I shoulld play at an scg open. I can play rw, rg, mono r or rwg goblins. Which would be optimal and why?

[GoboLord]

Hello, I'm just wondering what splash I shoulld play at an scg open. I can play rw, rg, mono r or rwg goblins. Which would be optimal and why?

I would start with the metagame.
Which decks do you expect to face? What does your MD look like? Which cards are "set in stone", which cards arn't?
Are there certain decks that you expect to face, although they arn't popular yet? (i.e. can you see a trend)?
What do you think are bad MUs and why?

If you can answer those questions you can go for deckbuilding. After that, you can choose cards that fit in your deck and are good in the local meta. The manafixing (or: which splashcolors you want to run) should be the last step.

[Annatar]

Question:

Is Wasteland still a good card?

At SCG St. Louis 6/8 of the top 8 ran FEWER than 20 lands. Since the curve has gotten so low is it even worth it anymore to trade land drops? Or is killing utility lands still important?


It will be worth it for as long as there is a Legacy format in which to play it. Cutting them would significantly weaken that angle of attack for which Goblins is infamous for. That being said, Rishadan Port is not in it's happy place in a metagame full of combo decks. I would skim on that first before setting my eyes on Wasteland.

Ghost Quarter might be slightly more interesting then Port at this point, since it works as a Strip Mine in a lot of matchups and can randomly hose Brainstorm stacks (this is probably quite nice when some form of hand disruption is also involved).

[Hof]

Question:

Is Wasteland still a good card?
In the format? Absolutely. In blue based Tempo decks, not playing Wasteland would be like saying no thanks to free wins.

In Goblins? Not sure. Goblins really need to play more than two or three lands, more so than most decks the format. And Goblins has no cantrips to dig for Wasteland when needed, or dig past them when they are unwanted, so it is more random that way. And being more vulnerable to Wasteland yourself is kind of a big deal in Goblins. I would even say that Goblins is not the best deck to take full advantage of Wasteland. That doesn't mean it isn't a good card for Goblins. But having played Goblins without Wasteland and liking the increase in stability and speed, I no longer regard Wasteland as auto-include.

[jrw1985]

In the format? Absolutely. In blue based Tempo decks, not playing Wasteland would be like saying no thanks to free wins.

In Goblins? Not sure. Goblins really need to play more than two or three lands, more so than most decks the format. And Goblins has no cantrips to dig for Wasteland when needed, or dig past them when they are unwanted, so it is more random that way. And being more vulnerable to Wasteland yourself is kind of a big deal in Goblins. I would even say that Goblins is not the best deck to take full advantage of Wasteland. That doesn't mean it isn't a good card for Goblins. But having played Goblins without Wasteland and liking the increase in stability and speed, I no longer regard Wasteland as auto-include.

Yeah, I wonder about whether it should be played anymore. It's not great against DRS. It was never that good against combo. Midrange decks don't really care about it anymore. As I noted earlier, 6/8 of the most recent top 8 played FEWER than 20 lands. These decks clearly don't need to Develop their mana bases. Meanwhile, we do.

But on the other hand, it's fucking Wasteland! We've all gotten free wins because of it. It punishes greedy keeps. But is the punishment it dishes out to our opponents greater than the missed land drop and inevitable mulliganning wasteland creates on our side of the board?

[GoboLord]

Yeah, I wonder about whether it should be played anymore. It's not great against DRS. It was never that good against combo. Midrange decks don't really care about it anymore. As I noted earlier, 6/8 of the most recent top 8 played FEWER than 20 lands. These decks clearly don't need to Develop their mana bases. Meanwhile, we do.

But on the other hand, it's fucking Wasteland! We've all gotten free wins because of it. It punishes greedy keeps. But is the punishment it dishes out to our opponents greater than the missed land drop and inevitable mulliganning wasteland creates on our side of the board?

Well, I'm approaching this issue differently: What is the best replacement for Wasteland?
If we think about this carefully we go like this:

* Exclude Wasteland, because it's not effective
* Exclude Rishadan Port because it's only effective in combination with Wasteland
* Have a redundant amount of colored mana-sorces
* figure out that we don't need that many colored manasources, since we are essentially a mono-colored deck.
* Cut the lands down to 20, maybe even 18
* Realize that Goblins still need lots of mana
* Add some more Lands, lets say 21 in total
* Realize that Wasteland is better than a Mountain

Honestly, what would a wasteland-less manabase look like?

4 Cavern of Souls
6 Fetchland
2 Duallands
10 Mountains

Or stated differently: what's a good replacement for Wasteland? Pendelhaven? Karakas? Volrath's Stronghold? Contested War Zone? Goblin Burrows? Ancient Tomb?
Even ScatmanX, who is frequently running a WINSTIGATOR list, includes some manadenial there. Why? Because Wasteland and Rishadan Port are the best lands, as soon as you have enough red mana-sources.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that one should always run 4 Wastes + 4 Ports. However, I don't really see the drawbacks of doing so. I don't think that mana-fixing (color-fixing) issues occur all too often - unless you hold a 3-colored deck in your hand. Even then: our MD is 95%-100% mono-Red. What we need is MORE LANDS, not more COLORED lands. Also, having a Wasteland in playdoesn't mean you need to use it. That's something I have been talking about with jrw1985 and ScatmanX some months ago: Wasteland is primarily a mana-source. We can only activate it when we are absolutely sure that the drawback will be bigger for our opponent than for us.


//EDIT:
I was thinking about this one...

It's not great against DRS.
It's probably a ridiculous idea, but what about running Deathrite Shaman ourselves? It doesn't have to be a Rbg list - maybe Rb or Rg is fine. I can see the following benefits:

* improving our own Wastelands in two ways: (1) using Wasteland to go for their non-basics, then Recycle it for mana, (2) use Wasteland to go for their non-basics, then leave Shaman untapped to counter opposing Shamans, by targeting the same card that they targeted
* ramping Mana
* MD graveyard hate (most likely for his green ability though)

drawbacks:
- demanding mana-requirements
- veeery bad topdeck
- we probably need to run more fetches AND duals, which means that we cut Rishadan Ports (which ultimately wouldn't match my original intentions)

[Chatto]

Also, having a Wasteland in play doesn't mean you need to use it. (...) Wasteland is primarily a mana-source. We can only activate it when we are absolutely sure that the drawback will be bigger for our opponent than for us.

The last time I played Goblins (or all other decks playing Wasteland) I would almost always use Wasteland and/ or Port as a mana-source. IMHO Wasteland isn't as powerfull as it used to be, and a lot of decks in my meta can run on three or even two lands. Combined with decks running DRS I would almost always keep Wasteland for those pain in the ass lands like Maze, not going the path of mana-denial. Now with the new rulings I think this Depth-combo will be heavily played (at least for a while), maybe even broken in some decks.

I don't think it's wise to drop Wasteland, but maybe a split in favor of Port (something in the line of 4 Ports/ 3 Wastelands) can be considered. In my meta there are more and more decks running on fetch and basics: some really good (semi)-combo-decks for instance.

[ScatmanX]

what about running Deathrite Shaman ourselves?
Been there, done that. The card is good. We really like the ramp. We somethat like the reach, we don't like the lifegain that much, and hate is situational, and having another 1 drop was neat. The overall conclusion was that it was not worth the slots. The opponents always ignored them, and topdecking was a awful. Also, you need to run an increased number of fetches for him too work. Combine it with Caverns, Wastes, and maybe Ports, you have a shitty manabase, and some really awkward decisions midgame (like, needing to fetch to play Warchief, needing to get a basic to do not get Wastelanded, drawing a Shaman...)
Seriously, you can put him on the 'bad cards to add' section on the primer.

I was wrting something about the Wasteland discussion, but forgot what it was, because writing while worrking is not the brightest idea. Anyway, I had gone this far. Maybe someone could get something from it:

Honestly, what would a wasteland-less manabase look like?

4 Cavern of Souls
6 Fetchland
2 Duallands
10 Mountains
1 - I think it might be usefull to check decklists from before Cavern of Souls was printed. I mean, Caverns is a colorless land for most of our sideboard cards. By running them, we weakened SB cards; With 4 more colored lands, we could push the SB alittle more. So I checked my previous manabases from 01/12/11 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21184-Winning-With-Goblins-Yes-it-is-possible&highlight=goblins), 09/20/09 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14980-RB-Goblins-Top2-Tournament-20-09-09&highlight=) and 10/18/09 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15223-RB-Goblins-Top1-Tournament-10-18-09&highlight=), respectively as follows:


3 [M10] Mountain (2)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
2 [R] Taiga
1 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
(16 R, 9 G) (GG md, GGG SB)
-----
3 [9E] Mountain (4)
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [B] Badlands
2 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
(16 R, 12 B, + utility) (9B on md + 2 Magus of the Moon)
-----
6 [DM] Mountain (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [R] Badlands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
(16 R, 10 B) (5B md, 3 sb, + Magus)
----

[magicmerl]

Honestly, what would a wasteland-less manabase look like?

4 Cavern of Souls
6 Fetchland
2 Duallands
10 Mountains
I think you run AT LEAST as many fetchlands as targets for fetchlands, if not more. So in your hypothetical 22 land manabase, I'd start with 9 fetchs and 9 'mountains'. That means we can easily splasy 2-3 colours, or consider other utility lands.

Here's my take on a Rwg list:

4 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
9 Fetchlands
4 Mountains
2 Plateau
2 Taiga

That gives you rock solid mana in both splash colours, as well as all the basics you could ever want in the world. And some utility.

[Chatto]

So now drop all Wastelands and Ports? Interesting

[Adraco]

Hi, i return play mtg from ago and need some advice on this my list :wink:


4 Cavern of Souls
3 Pendelhaven
13 Mountain

4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator

1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Wizard
1 Stingscourger

4 AEther Vial

Qaplà

[swoop]

What about Legion Loyalist as a silver bullet?

Makes piledrivers drive the point as they attack? Is a good call with battallion and could be of use.

[GoboLord]

I think you run AT LEAST as many fetchlands as targets for fetchlands, if not more. So in your hypothetical 22 land manabase, I'd start with 9 fetchs and 9 'mountains'. That means we can easily splasy 2-3 colours, or consider other utility lands.

Here's my take on a Rwg list:

4 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
9 Fetchlands
4 Mountains
2 Plateau
2 Taiga

That gives you rock solid mana in both splash colours, as well as all the basics you could ever want in the world. And some utility.

Well, it appears that I was misunderstood.
Such a manabase does not have any advantages if you don't run the right cards that the splashcolors (and the manafixing) are supposed to support. Goblins arn't about their splashcolors. There are a FEW examples of powerful SB cards that are not Red (Perish, Rest in Peace), however, having a manabase that supports these cards does not outweigh the advantages of having Wastelands (and Ports).
Again: I do NOT think that cutting Wastelands from the deck is an option. If people want to enhance their manabase they should aim at getting MORE mana, i.e. cards that ramp Goblins into play in case Vial and Lackey don't do the job. This has been done with the WINSTIGATOR list (featuring Warren Instigator and Chrome Mox) and I think that is as far as we can get. There are only very cards left that could improve the manaproduction of Vial Goblins, all of which have proven to be bas cardchoices (reffering to the opening post): Gemstone Caverns, Simian Spirit Guide, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Brightsone Ritual, Rite of Flame and Deathrite Shaman.
So, Goblins don't have issues with colorfixing (please tell me if people have had different experiences), but with gathering a sufficient amount of mana to play such clunky cards as Ringleader, Krenko and Siege-Gang. This actually a topic worth discussing. I'd be willing to discuss the topic of manaramp further, because thats one of the few topic which havn't been discussed to death yet.

And some utility.
Wasteland is the best utility land there is.


@ Adraco:
Welcome back. People can't give you any helpful advice if they don't know some more details, like:

* what does your metagame look like?
* which cards do you have access to?
* what does your SB look like?
* what'S your impression on the deck? which cards do you like/dislike?

[Dice_Box]

With all the talk about wastelands not being as effective against tuned decks as they once where, anyone thinking in might be time to dust off the old Moon effects and run them main? I am tempted to put 3 moons in my goblins in place of Thalia for 2 weeks or so and see what happens. Would throw Chrome in too for the chance of a speed gain. I think it could be useful in the Mono red build.

[Tokugawa]

With all the talk about wastelands not being as effective against tuned decks as they once where, anyone thinking in might be time to dust off the old Moon effects and run them main? I am tempted to put 3 moons in my goblins in place of Thalia for 2 weeks or so and see what happens. Would throw Chrome in too for the chance of a speed gain. I think it could be useful in the Mono red build.
I would say "NO!" to mox.

Most well known moon-based deck, like painters, pack 7+ two-mana lands, 4 mox, 4 simian to ensure a turn 1 moon.

Turn2 moon on play maybe OK, turn2 on draw is late. Turn3 is toooo late. We cannot resolve the moon as fast as they do.

So only 3 or 4 mox won't help a lot. No need to mention again, that a mox is the worst topdeck card you can imagine.

[Tokugawa]

A turn 1 lackey cannot go through a turn 1 shaman.

However,

a turn 1 instigator also cannot go through a turn 1 shaman…

[Dice_Box]

Your argument against Mox is silly, we run them already in one build of the deck and it works well there. I am not talking 4 Mox, the normal 2 is fine.

As for the DRS, might be time to dust off Tarfire.

[magicmerl]

With all the talk about wastelands not being as effective against tuned decks as they once where, anyone thinking in might be time to dust off the old Moon effects and run them main? I am tempted to put 3 moons in my goblins in place of Thalia for 2 weeks or so and see what happens. Would throw Chrome in too for the chance of a speed gain. I think it could be useful in the Mono red build.
I think that Wasteland being too slow means Blood Moon is WAY too slow. Plus the fact that it's so easily countered.

Who do you see it being good against?


As for the DRS, might be time to dust off Tarfire.
Or not be so dependant on hitting with a T1 Lackey?


Goblins arn't about their splashcolors.
While I agree with most of your post about the indispensability of Wasteland, I disagree with this.

I think that Goblins are ALL about the splash colours, since goblins is an inherently fair deck in an unfair format, it MUST have cards which can help its graveyard and storm type decks.

[GoboLord]

I think that Goblins are ALL about the splash colours, since goblins is an inherently fair deck in an unfair format, it MUST have cards which can help its graveyard and storm type decks.
I don't agree with this for two reasons.

First, I have data supporting the fact that Mono-Red WINSTIGATOR lists are just as successful as Mono-Red CLASSIC lists (or Rg CLASSIC lists) and Rgw THALIA-lists. This means at least that Mono-R, Rg and Rgw-lists have had similart success. In fact I would argue that the best choice against 'unfair' decks is the WINSTIGATOR list, which is classically Mono-Red. However, I admit that this arguments only holds for the Maindeck composition, since the analysis din't take SB cards into consideration. That's where my second argument comes into play.

Second, there are effective SB cards against unfair decks (let's take Storm, Show and GY-combo decks as examples) in every color. I would even go as far to say that the most effective hate in "colorless".

Storm Hate:
* Mono-Red: Chalice of the Void, Mindbreak Trap, Leyline of Sanctity, Thorn of Amethyst
* White: Thalia, Ethersworn Cannonist
* Blue: Flusterstorm
* Black: Cabal Therapy
* Green: -

Show-Hate:
* Mono-Red: Angel of Despair, Confusion in the Ranks, Pyroblast, Stingscourger
* White: Thalia, Ethersworn Cannonist
* Blue: Flusterstorm
* Black: Cabal Therapy
* Green: -

Grave-Hate:
* Mono-Red: Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger'S Cage
* White: Rest in Peace
* Blue: -
* Black: Extirpate, Planar Void, Jixilid Jailer
* Green: -

I don't mean to say that splashcolors have nothing to offer. However, I think the solutions that splashcolors offer against against "unfair" are only slightly (if any) better that the mono-Red ones.
Feel free to tell me IF and WHY you would disagree. I'm open to take new perspectives on this issue.

[LeoCop 90]

I don't really understand the discussion about wastelands and ports, i think that some of you are making wrong assumptions.

The fact that a lot of decks are running less than 20 lands should be a further reason to run mana-denial. To me the logic is not: "they need only few lands to play so we can drop manadenial" , but is "they run few lands so our chances of completing screwing them with waste and ports are higher".

For example, I also have a burn deck wich usually is built with 18-21 lands. The reason is that a burn player wants to see 2 lands in his opening hand and then another one in the next few turns. So , there is the possibility that a deck with 20 lands sees only three of them until mid-late game. What happens if we waste one and port another one ? We win. There is no deck that can run smoothly on 1 land.
I agree with gobolord: the primary function of wastes and ports is being manasources, but apart from that they are the best utility we can have.

Dropping completely wastes and ports might lead to new builds such as "Goblin Stompy" with Ancient tombs , city of traitors, Chrome Moxes, Chalices and Magus of the Moon main deck. In such a build i think it would be right to run bigger threats such as Lightning Crafter or Goblin Goon. That would lead to a completely different strategy: i would keep in only lackey , Ringleader, Matron, Siege-Gang, Krenko of the traditional goblins and drop Vial.But probably this would be only a worse deck than Dragon Stompy.

About sources of mana-acceleration that have not been mentioned there is Infernal Plunge that is slightly better in my opinion than rite of flame and very good with mogg war marshal. Still not playable, i think.

[fimo]

been to the local turney and I played the same thalia list I have been playing for the last weeks, for reference it is posted 2 pages back.

R1: D&T 2-1
R2: Zombardment 1-2
R3: soldier stompy 2-0
R4: esper wizzards 2-0
R5: sneak and show 2-0
R6: we drew into prices

Zombardment is though but not unbeatable. Its weak point is that many of those zombies/bloodghast cannot block lackey. Also, grave hate wins you the game..... unless they abrupt decay it as it happened to me G3 :P. After SB mull to a lackey/grave hate and it should be all right.
Krenko is insane. Too many times it works like this:
- I am in a loosing spot
- drop krenko, tap krenko, stabilize
- next turn, tap krenko, attack for the win.
I think it should be a 1 of core card in every goblin build, it does something that no other goblin can do.

Regarding the mana denial discussion: please don t cut wasteland! Mana denial is the best tool we can ever have against combo decks. R5 against sneak and show I won it because of mana denial/taxing effects. I completely agree with goboLord here:


Goblins don't have issues with colorfixing (please tell me if people have had different experiences), but with gathering a sufficient amount of mana to play such clunky cards as Ringleader, Krenko and Siege-Gang.

Goblins' most (only) powerful side is the matron/ringleader card advantage engine. It has one important problem: it is damn slow. Therefore, you need to build your deck around it in order to make it matter whithin the time window of a tipical match. You have two ways to make it matter: 1) make it faster than what it is (goblin lackey, goblin warchief), 2) slow down your opponet (wastelend-screw, rishadan port, thalia). Do both (recomended).
Unless you play a stompy approach, mana denial lands are absolutelly necessary.

[GoboLord]

Zombardment is though but not unbeatable. Its weak point is that many of those zombies/bloodghast cannot block lackey. Also, grave hate wins you the game..... unless they abrupt decay it as it happened to me G3 :P. After SB mull to a lackey/grave hate and it should be all right.
Krenko is insane. Too many times it works like this:
- I am in a loosing spot
- drop krenko, tap krenko, stabilize
- next turn, tap krenko, attack for the win.


That reminds me....



Event: Legacy Grand Prix Gent, Belgium
Players: 1445
Date: Saturday, July 21st 2012
Result: 6-3-0 after 9 rounds

Round 3: Jasper from The Netherlands with Zombardement
G1: I lost a close game because I didn’t know what his deck did. I underestimated the value of Blood Artist which turned out to be a bad.
IN: 1 Shooter
OUT: 1 MWM
G2: Jasper got combo’ed to death by an early Lackey connecting into Krenko and Piledriver
G3: It turned out that Zombies can’t block, which is quite nice when you have double Piledriver.

3-0-0

[...]

Conclusions:
* Zombies can’t block
[...]


Also, thanks for sharing your results.

[magicmerl]

I don't agree with this for two reasons.

First, I have data supporting the fact that Mono-Red WINSTIGATOR lists are just as successful as Mono-Red CLASSIC lists (or Rg CLASSIC lists) and Rgw THALIA-lists. This means at least that Mono-R, Rg and Rgw-lists have had similart success. In fact I would argue that the best choice against 'unfair' decks is the WINSTIGATOR list, which is classically Mono-Red. However, I admit that this arguments only holds for the Maindeck composition, since the analysis din't take SB cards into consideration.
Yeah, I found that analysis very interesting. The Winstigator list is essentially trying to be even faster than the combo decks. The problem I have with that I don't think we can be faster than a deck like Tin Fins. When I play them and have no disruption, they typically go off T2, very occasionally T1 or T3. That means that even on the draw, cards like Thorn (and Thalia) are too slow.

My real problem with Winstigator lists is that I'm just unhappy with how inconsistent it is as a deck. There are just more ways to be mana screwed, or even hit with Winstigator and just get owned by something as simple as an opposing pyroclasm than there is with a more conventional build.

Maybe it's just that I'm a bad aggro player, but I have the most success playing goblins as a midrange/control deck.


That's where my second argument comes into play.

Second, there are effective SB cards against unfair decks (let's take Storm, Show and GY-combo decks as examples) in every color. I would even go as far to say that the most effective hate in "colorless".

Storm Hate:
* Mono-Red: Chalice of the Void, Mindbreak Trap, Leyline of Sanctity, Thorn of Amethyst
* White: Thalia, Ethersworn Cannonist
* Blue: Flusterstorm
* Black: Cabal Therapy
* Green: -

Show-Hate:
* Mono-Red: Angel of Despair, Confusion in the Ranks, Pyroblast, Stingscourger
* White: Thalia, Ethersworn Cannonist
* Blue: Flusterstorm
* Black: Cabal Therapy
* Green: -

Grave-Hate:
* Mono-Red: Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger'S Cage
* White: Rest in Peace
* Blue: -
* Black: Extirpate, Planar Void, Jixilid Jailer
* Green: -

I don't mean to say that splashcolors have nothing to offer. However, I think the solutions that splashcolors offer against against "unfair" are only slightly (if any) better that the mono-Red ones.
I think that you have good listings there, but I think that you should only include off-colour examples that are just flat up better than the mono-coloured alternatives. So I would set the bar for off-coloured cards as a little higher than you. For example, I think that the consensus is that Relic of Progenitus is the best monoR GY hate. So any WUBG alternatives would need to be BETTER than Relic in order to be considered. I've taken the liberty of bolding the off-colour cards you listed that I think are better than the mono-R alternatives. I don't think that the other splash cards you mention are flat out better than their monoR alternatives.


Feel free to tell me IF and WHY you would disagree. I'm open to take new perspectives on this issue.
Well, I think that ultimately it's a question of power vs stability. Adding Fetchs and Duals does make the manabase less stable, since it means that other decks (most notably D&T) can now waste our duals and colour screw us. On the flip side, a card like Thalia is just better than Thorn of Amethyst, since it also presents a clock (and is randomly great vs things like Engineered Plague as well).

Basically what it comes down to is that I'm happy to sacrifice percentage points in a matchup that I feel is favourable to us (D&T) in order to get better vs decks that I feel are unfavourable to us (Dredge, Tin Fins, Storm etc).

p.s. Here's the list I'm planning on playing in our 'big legacy' tournament this Saturday, with Thalia moved MD over TSH and Piledrivers 3 and 4:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Plateau
1 Taiga

4 Aether Vial
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Rest in Peace
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
2 Krosan Grip
1 Angel of Despair

I'm taking a deliberate and calculated risk with the white mana sources (8 coloured mana sources for RIP should really be 10). I'm gambling that having an 18 card SB is better than having a slightly more coherent goblin theme G1. We'll see how a small sample size goes.


Zombardment is though but not unbeatable. Its weak point is that many of those zombies/bloodghast cannot block lackey. Also, grave hate wins you the game..... unless they abrupt decay it as it happened to me G3 :P. After SB mull to a lackey/grave hate and it should be all right.
Krenko is insane. Too many times it works like this:
- I am in a loosing spot
- drop krenko, tap krenko, stabilize
- next turn, tap krenko, attack for the win.
I think it should be a 1 of core card in every goblin build, it does something that no other goblin can do.
In my experience, pretty much every time that I would have played Krenko and won, SGC would also have won me the game. And SGC is better than Krenko EVERY time I connect with a T1 Lackey.


Goblins' most (only) powerful side is the matron/ringleader card advantage engine. It has one important problem: it is damn slow. Therefore, you need to build your deck around it in order to make it matter whithin the time window of a tipical match. You have two ways to make it matter: 1) make it faster than what it is (goblin lackey, goblin warchief), 2) slow down your opponet (wastelend-screw, rishadan port, thalia). Do both (recomended).
Unless you play a stompy approach, mana denial lands are absolutelly necessary.
I agree with this 100%.

[Sockosensei]

I finally saw my first action as a Warchief, going 2-1 at the local shop.

I played Tietze's Atlanta maindeck, except I was short two cards.
-1 Warchief
+1 Chieftain
-1 SGC
+1 Krenko

The sideboard was short many key cards due to 'circumstances'. I just prayed not to face storm.
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic
2 Chalice
2 Thalia
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Wear & Tear
1 TSH
1 Mogg War Marshall



Rd. 1: 2-1 vs UBr Land Destruction -- Sinkhole, Rancid Earth, Avalanche Riders, Stifle, Snapcaster,....

I lost game 1 with no permanents on the table when Rancid Earth killed my clock (4 goblin tokens that were beating in uncontested each turn) and the last of my land. There was a key turn where I could have held back mana to Port and to keep him off BB but played a second Mogg War Marshall instead. I had visions of Chieftain coming in the following turn for some big swings, but it was a greedy play and cost me the game as things spiraled out of control from there.
G2: Solid goblin grinding action FTW.
G3: Wasteland opp's only land after his mull to 5. Piledrivers and tokens beat across his empty board.

2-1 win


Rd. 2: vs the blistering ant storm
When you know you're not prepared for a matchup, it always finds you.

1-2 loss


Rd. 3: vs Anvil-Chains of Mephistopheles, Loam+Punishing Fire
He wasn't quite ready for a horde of green men and couldn't top enough answers/mulliganed a lot.

2-0 win

2-1 in rounds on the day


I stuck around afterwards to play several practice games against the rd 3 opponent and another friend piloting MUD and the Gate, going something like 7-2, but more importantly gaining experience against different decks.


Notes:

Highlight of the night: Opponents' animated overreactions to T1 Lackey. I swear I thought one guy's head was going to explode. News of Lackey's fall from power has not reached my local shop.
Splashes: My dual lands didn't get wasted. They always went for Caverns or Port first.
Machine gun: I finally got to see Skirk Prospector in action on a clogged up board. Ringleader revealed MWM, MWM, Sharpshooter, Ringleader(!). The next turn I gunned down all blockers, swung for about 12, and domed the player for the rest.
Reminder to self: Porting is not just about keeping them low on total mana, but about keeping them off double colors for key spells. And about buying time.
Reminder 2: Speak up. The rd.1 opponent tapped out at my EOT to Brainstorm, and then QUICKLY untapped to start his turn without giving me time to crack a fetch. It's my fault for not holding him up, and I walked into Stifle the next turn (hadn't seen it in the match yet, but I suspected it was in). Lesson learned.
EDIT -- Chieftain: I was only running it because I was short a Warchief, but the singleton Goblin Chieftain made frequent appearances and was consistently good to awesome. In particular I liked that I could commit fewer cards to the board and still get in for enough damage to force a board wipe that was then easier to rebuild from. I haven't read the full debate surrounding it do I'll go do my homework.


All in all a very fun evening and great first run of the deck with several key lessons learned.

[goblinsplayer]

Went 2-2 at a local tournament because i lost my 3-1 match against zoo. Anyways, the list.

4 lackey
4 warchief
4 matron
4 ringleaer
3 incenerator
3 piledriver
3 tarfire
3 MWM
1 prospector
1 chieftain
1 krenko
1 sgc
1 sharpshooter
1 stingscourger
4 vial

11 mountain
3 port
4 wasteland
4 cavern

sb
3 pyrokinesis
3 cotv
3 relic
1 cage
3 mindbreak trap
1 scrapper
1 stingscourger

Matches were

BUG Delver: 1-2
TES: 2-1
D&T: 2-1
Zoo: 1-2

I think the zoo matchup is a hard one for goblins. Thoughts? By the way, will be running this list at scg Philly. Feels good and haven't gone 0-2 in a while now.

[Potdindy]

[QUOTE I think the zoo matchup is a hard one for goblins. Thoughts? By the way, will be running this list at scg Philly. Feels good and haven't gone 0-2 in a while now.[/QUOTE]

Your list is the same as I've been running except I keep bouncing between Tarfires and Thalias. How did the Tarfires do against Zoo? I have gotten to play against Tendrils combos a lot lately and I have found that having 4 Mindbreak Traps is not enough to consistently stop them. Usually they just durress then win...awkward. Is Chalice better against storm combos? I just got tired to watching them combo off without any interaction. Thalia was pretty satisfying as I played her and my opponents just stared at her thinking "what kind of noob plays Thalia in Goblins"...scoop.

Another thing...and probably people have said this already...Vial has proven to be the most consistanly solid turn one play. I always love to go lackey, warchief, piledriver win, but so many times those pieces are getting discarded and lackey gets killed. I am thinking Goblins needs to be even more of a control/tempo now than aggro deck. Tell me if I am wrong...I'd be glad to hear if so.

[goblinsplayer]

[QUOTE I think the zoo matchup is a hard one for goblins. Thoughts? By the way, will be running this list at scg Philly. Feels good and haven't gone 0-2 in a while now.

Your list is the same as I've been running except I keep bouncing between Tarfires and Thalias. How did the Tarfires do against Zoo? I have gotten to play against Tendrils combos a lot lately and I have found that having 4 Mindbreak Traps is not enough to consistently stop them. Usually they just durress then win...awkward. Is Chalice better against storm combos? I just got tired to watching them combo off without any interaction. Thalia was pretty satisfying as I played her and my opponents just stared at her thinking "what kind of noob plays Thalia in Goblins"...scoop.

Another thing...and probably people have said this already...Vial has proven to be the most consistanly solid turn one play. I always love to go lackey, warchief, piledriver win, but so many times those pieces are getting discarded and lackey gets killed. I am thinking Goblins needs to be even more of a control/tempo now than aggro deck. Tell me if I am wrong...I'd be glad to hear if so.[/QUOTE]

I would say the tarfires can be good against zoo. It can be awkward for it to be sitting in your hand when there are just a million wild nacatls and kird apes on the table but it kills a lot of the things in their deck and it's a removal spell on turn one. I would say it is good.

About the chalices, yes, they are better. I personally play TES myself and I find chalice for 1 or 0 very annoying and hard to play around. When you are on the play, you can go: Lackey, chalice for 0, go. That is very good considering it stops them from winning on turn one, stops them from discarding their hand with LED for infernal tutor, and makes winning after ad nauseum very hard. And you don't have to hold it in your hand to get it discarded by a duress or something. You can just run it out on turn one.

About the vial, it may be amazing to stick it turn one against blue tempo decks and the such, but it isn't a huge help against decks against show and tell and other types of fast combo that exist. I would much rather have a lackey turn one on the play than have a vial against a bad matchup such as combo. In the fair matchups, I would agree that we want to land vial, cheat creatures into play while disrupting their mana is better than a turn one lackey getting STPed.

Anyways, a question of my own, What would a good sideboard for a mono red build look like in a meta with alot of RUG, Esperblade, Show and tell, TES, shardless bug and other "blue decks" that happen to be tier one. Oh, and ANT. MY sideboard currently looks like this:

3 chalice
3 trap
3 pyrokinesis
3 relic
1 cage
1 scrapper
1 stingscourger

[GoboLord]

4 lackey
4 warchief
4 matron
4 ringleaer
3 incenerator
3 piledriver
3 tarfire
3 MWM
1 prospector
1 chieftain
1 krenko
1 sgc
1 sharpshooter
1 stingscourger
4 vial

11 mountain
3 port
4 wasteland
4 cavern

sb
3 pyrokinesis
3 cotv
3 relic
1 cage
3 mindbreak trap
1 scrapper
1 stingscourger


I really like your decklist, man. Looks pretty good. Don't know if the Cage is worth the slot though. What are your thoughts on that?
--------------------------------------------------

Just came back from a small event (17 players, 5 rounds). List, results and thoughts:

Mana (22)
4 Caverns, 4 Wasteland, 4 Port
10 Mountain

Core (26)
[...]

Others (12)
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
1 Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector

Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyroblast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Boartusk Liege

RESULTS
R1: ANT (0-2)
R2: ANT (2-0)
R3: RUG-Thresh feat. Punishing Fire (1-2)
R4: Sneak Show (2-0)
R5: Manaless Dredge (2-1)


THOUGHTS
* I really liked the maindeck-composition. If I had to identify any "weak spots" it would be Sharpshooter (again...I just dont get warmed up with this guy) and SGC #2. However, I don't think that there is a worthy replacement for those. I'd prefer some Goblin for :1:{R}...I'd play MWM #5 and #6 if I was allowed to do so. Maybe I try some Frogtosser Banneret next time
* Pyroblast was surprisingly good vs ANT and Sneak Show. I didn't board it vs RUG and I think it this was correct.
* Sneak Show is only problematic with Sneak Attack. They don't want to resolve a S&T against a deck with Matron, Ringleader, SGC and Stingscourger

[LeoCop 90]

I'm currently running the same main deck of goblinsplayer with this little differences : an additional chieftain instead of a warchief ( 3 warchief/2 chieftain) and a tin street hooligan instead of a tarfire (only 2 tarfire). Obviously i don't run 11 mountain but 6 fetch 3 mountain 2 taiga.
I'll post my results when i have the occasion to play in a decent event.

[jrw1985]

The past two weeks have been a bit of a drought for my Magic playing. I went 0-4 over a 2-week period and was feeling pretty frustrated going into this week. So I decided to change my decklist and went mono red this week. The result was a 7-0-1 record over two small weekly tourneys.

The list I went 3-0-1 with...

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 MWM
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Gempalm
4 Ringleader
2 SGC
1 Krenko
2 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger

10 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Waste
4 Port

SB
4 Leyline-o-the-Void
4 Chalice-o-the-Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Pyrokinesis

I decided to just make the deck as basic as possible. I don't want to worry about playing around Wasteland. I don't want to play around Stifle. I want to punish the decks that try running fewer than 20 Lands. If I'm going to fight fast combo I want the fastest possible hate. If I fight GY decks I want the best GY hate card. The sideboard cards are uber-powerful in their own right. They are clunky to play with, but goblins never really changes its strategy so your SB cards are usually ones you need to mull to anyway.

R1 Hypergenesis
G1 I play and cast a T1 Vial. My opponent cast T1 Shardless agent into Hypergenesis, putting Progenitus and Grizz into play. I play my entire hand, which includes a Krenko and a Matron. Matron fetches Warchief and my opponent dies a gobliny death T3.
I side in 4 Chalice.
G2 I keep a hand with Chalice and Stingscourger. My opponent doesn't go off T1. I play T1 Chalice @ 0 which my opponent is clearly not prepared for. He goes the SnT route and I Stingscourger his Emrakul. He can't draw back into it before I kill him.

R2 Beastmaster's Ascencion - Cheerios
G1 My opponent mulls to 5 and never gets the pieces he needs. I just mess up his mana base and run him over.
I side in Chalice and Trap
G2 he goes off T1, kills me T2.
G3 T1 Chalice @ 0 from me stops him cold.

R3 Tezzeret Control
G1 I keep a shaky 7 that I knew I should have mulled. L
G2 I side in Leyline and Scrapper. I draw Leyline in my opening 7 and whittle away at his life total until I finally grind out the W.
G3 Another leyline in the opener. This match gets super grindy again and we go to time. I can't kill him in turns, but I think I would have won this one.
Draw

R4 Affinity
G1 he starts off well and fetches up a Batterskull with SFM. I triple-block the BS and use Gempalms to clear his board and keep him from mounting an offensive. Krenko joins the show and its all over. W
G2 i side in Chalice and Scrapper. He plays a land and passes T1. I play T1 Chalice and start shutting down his manabase. He gets a BS online and goes up to 32 life off it while I keep chump blocking. I'm then able to turn the corner and I start taking over the game. W

I decided after that tourney to change the MD and SB.
MD -2 Tarfire +2 Pyrokinesis
SB -2 Pyrokinesis +2 Blood Moon

I played the deck again on Saturday ans went 4-0

R1 newbie. I tried to be nice.

R2 Budget RUG Delver.
G1 he mulled to 4. W
G2 I kept a greedy 1 land hand. He had the Force for my Vial. L
G3 I landed a Blood Moon. W

R3 TES
G1 He wins.
G2 I side in Chalice, MBT and Leyline. I play T1 Chalice @ 0 and Lackey. It was enough! W
G3 I was able to use Wasteland and Port to disrupt his mana development and my Mindbreak Trap in hand made his scoop it up. W

R4 Shardless BUG
G1 I get Krenko online and win. Maindeck Pyrokinesis kills an early game Goyf which proves to be significant.
G2 I side in Blood Moon and Leyline. T0 Leyline makes his DRS significantly worse. I then land a Blood Moon and turn his deck off. W
We play a third for funsies.
G3 Blood Moon hits the table again, and without a DRS in play his deck stops doing anything and I'm able to draw his established board position into deep waters for a third win.

MVPs
Chalice of the Void - This card singlehandedly won 4 matches for me. Hypergenesis, Cheerios, Affinity and TES.
Blood Moon - It occurred to me recently that manabases have become so ridiculously janky that Blood Moon has entered the category of a Free-Win bomb like Leyline or Chalice. It just wins games on its own now. It gives you such a huge advantage against decks that can't play around it. What's happened here is that DRS has made people think their manabases are Wasteland-proof, so they've stopped making any attempt to have a conservative manabase. If you notice G1 that your opponent isn't playing around Wasteland (especially with fetches) that probably means they aren't running any. So Blood Moon will let you turn-off their game T3. All you need after that to win is just to keep playing goblins and chumping until you draw them into deep water. It's pretty damn awesome.

Runner-Up
Leyline of the Void - It turned off Tezzerators Thopter/Sword combo, which was pretty vital. UB decks don't really have any way to answer a Leyline. So turning off that combo allowed me to generate a long-game win off of my mana denial and card advantage.
Krenko - He's awesome against BUG decks because cc4 is outside of AD range. He's awesome against RUG because by the time to land him they've generally run out of burn. When paired with a Warchief, Krenko becomes the biggest bomb in the deck. When the legends rule changes next month I'm going to start running multiple Krenkos and some Chieftains for more hasty-token madness. Chaining Krenkos will be easier and I think might be a new strategy to rely upon.

PS - I liked MD Pyrokinesis more than MD Tarfire.

[magicmerl]

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Plateau
1 Taiga

4 Aether Vial
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Rest in Peace
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
2 Krosan Grip
1 Angel of Despair


5 Rounds of swiss, cut to top 8. First place was a playset of Wastelands.

Rd 1 vs Affinity 2-1
Not much to say here since this was a newer player. His decision not to run Galvanic Blast hurt him vs me, since Sharpshooter is basically game. (which I find a little puzzling given the playability of Lightning Bolt in the format).

Rd 2 vs Dredge 2-0
In game 1 I managed to open with Prospector which kept Bridge from Below in check until Sharpshooter came online. Game 2 stared with him Therapying Rest in Peace on his T2, hitting 1, but there was another on the top of my library. :)

Rd 3 vs Burn 1-2
Another younger player. I mulled to 5 in all three games here, with the only lands in my 7-6 card hands being combinations of Wasteland and Rishadan Port. There's not much to say, other than I never saw a Chalice of the Void in either SB game, and those were the two I lost. Some days you draw your SB cards and sometimes you don't.

Rd 4 vs Storm 0-2 (the eventual tournament winner)
Mulled to 5 in Game 1, Thalia never showed up. In Game 2 I started with CotV on 0, but never drew any more hate cards, and he Chain of Vapor'd it and killed me on about turn 4-5.

Rd 5 vs Stoneblade 2-1
My win and in! TBH I find this matchup to be pretty easy. I just play as if their equipment is the most important thing, and I want to stop equipped creatures dealing combat damage at all costs.

-- Makes the cut to Top 8 --

Quarterfinals vs RUG 1-2
Not much to say here. I mulled to 5-6 all three games, had sketchy hands without red mana, and never saw any SB cards in any game. The game I won was on the back drawing couple of MWM, and all 4 Gempalms. Nothing he could do there. The third game was a deserved win for him as he went for a mana denial strategy (which made cutting Vials a poor decision in retrospect).

My SB plan vs RUG:
In: 4 RIP, 4 CotV
Out: 4 Aether Vial, 3 Thalia, 1 Prospector
In hindsight I think that I should have kept all 4 Aether Vial and instead cut 2 PD and 2 Lackey. What do you think?

So, yeah. Thoughts on the day:
1. I kinda feel like my topdecking skills were poor
2. I had several hands throughout the day that were perfectly adequate overall but didn't have any red mana in them (when there are 15 in the deck). Maybe a Port needs to turn into another Fetch/Mountain? Maybe I should just shuffle my deck better?
3. TSH was moved to the SB and I didn't miss him MD. Most matchups where I want it I'm perfectly happy to tutor for creature removal instead.
4. Krosan Grip is pretty mediocre as artifact removal vs affinity. It's only really vs the Force/Counterbalance/Top/Enlightened Tutor decks that I want the uncounterability. It's possible that I just cut these and Angel of Despair and move Thalia back to the SB to add more goblins to the maindeck.

[GoboLord]

The result was a 7-0-1 record over two small weekly tourneys.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 MWM
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Gempalm
4 Ringleader
2 SGC
1 Krenko
2 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger

10 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Waste
4 Port

SB
4 Leyline-o-the-Void
4 Chalice-o-the-Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Pyrokinesis

MVPs
Chalice of the Void - This card singlehandedly won 4 matches for me. Hypergenesis, Cheerios, Affinity and TES.
Blood Moon - It occurred to me recently that manabases have become so ridiculously janky that Blood Moon has entered the category of a Free-Win bomb like Leyline or Chalice. It just wins games on its own now. It gives you such a huge advantage against decks that can't play around it. What's happened here is that DRS has made people think their manabases are Wasteland-proof, so they've stopped making any attempt to have a conservative manabase. If you notice G1 that your opponent isn't playing around Wasteland (especially with fetches) that probably means they aren't running any. So Blood Moon will let you turn-off their game T3. All you need after that to win is just to keep playing goblins and chumping until you draw them into deep water. It's pretty damn awesome.

PS - I liked MD Pyrokinesis more than MD Tarfire.

Hey Jon,

congratz on the finish (undefeated for 2 weeks...nice). I really like your list and I will run 2 MD Kineses next time. That basically solved my problem of which 2 cards to include for SGC#2 and Sharpshooter. Well, actually I like SGC#2 so I might cut Gempalm#4 instead. In any event, the Kineses will got to the MD. Also I like your SB A LOT. I'm not sold on the Blood Moons though. They can screw RUG and BUG, but then again you need to shut down their DRS in order to make the 3-mana-card really effective. People have started to include DRS in RUG Thresh lateley, cutting Tarmogoyfs. I will probably copy-paste your SB too, with tjhe addition of Pyroblasts instead of Moons.
Thank you for the inspiration.


-

Quarterfinals vs RUG 1-2
(which made cutting Vials a poor decision in retrospect).

My SB plan vs RUG:
In: 4 RIP, 4 CotV
Out: 4 Aether Vial, 3 Thalia, 1 Prospector
In hindsight I think that I should have kept all 4 Aether Vial and instead cut 2 PD and 2 Lackey. What do you think?

So, yeah. Thoughts on the day:
1. I kinda feel like my topdecking skills were poor
2. I had several hands throughout the day that were perfectly adequate overall but didn't have any red mana in them (when there are 15 in the deck). Maybe a Port needs to turn into another Fetch/Mountain? Maybe I should just shuffle my deck better?
3. TSH was moved to the SB and I didn't miss him MD. Most matchups where I want it I'm perfectly happy to tutor for creature removal instead.
4. Krosan Grip is pretty mediocre as artifact removal vs affinity. It's only really vs the Force/Counterbalance/Top/Enlightened Tutor decks that I want the uncounterability. It's possible that I just cut these and Angel of Despair and move Thalia back to the SB to add more goblins to the maindeck.
Thanks for the report and congratz to you too.
About your questions:

(1) Don't never ever cut Vials against RUG. The deck is all about mana-denial, cheap burn and free-counters. Aether Vial counters the very strategy of the deck and makes an estimated 25% of their deck useless. With a Vial resolved on T1 the only thing you can lose to is early Delvers paired with multiple green creatures (and occasinally to bad top-decking skills, ofc). RIP is good vs. RUG - CHalice not so much.
(2) Shuffle better or cut a Port. Both are resonable options. I would start with shuffling though :laugh:
(3) I share your opinions on MD Thalia and TSH. I think they are better in the SB. Plus, I think Ethersworn Cannonist is better than Thalia as a SB card (vs. Combodecks at least).

[jrw1985]

@GoboLord-

I'm not completely sold on BM either, but the games it landed it just crushed. RUG had no answer. BUG had no answer (1 main deck swamp). Since these decks aren't going anywhere its nice to think that you can run an asymmetric sideboard card like BM to lock them out.

[f|i[p]]

Greetings new to the thread and the deck (as a pilot) this is my first tribal deck as well,

I have decided to make a w splash to the deck and was wondering what you guys do vs Dark Mav in terms of removal, they seem to have a lot of turn 1 answers to lackey, a lot of removal with stp and abrupt, equipment to give you a head ache, and huge creatures.. I'm thinking in terms of removal and answers..

Will pyroken main deck be a good idea? since there is a lot of mav in my metagame...

there is also a lot of show and tell, hence the white splash and a few shardless bug...that usually makes it to the top.


thanks

[GoboLord]

;731901']Greetings new to the thread and the deck (as a pilot) this is my first tribal deck as well,

I have decided to make a w splash to the deck and was wondering what you guys do vs Dark Mav in terms of removal, they seem to have a lot of turn 1 answers to lackey, a lot of removal with stp and abrupt, equipment to give you a head ache, and huge creatures.. I'm thinking in terms of removal and answers..

Will pyroken main deck be a good idea? since there is a lot of mav in my metagame...

there is also a lot of show and tell, hence the white splash and a few shardless bug...that usually makes it to the top.


thanks

I'm not 100% sure what "Dark Maverick" lists look like, but Pyrokinesis sounds like a good card to begin with. Also, if their only removal is StoP & Decay Krenko seems like a good card too - keep him alive for 2 turns any you should win. Both Pyrokinesis and Krenko are very good cards against GW Maverick and I think they should work for "Dark Maverick" (whatever that deck looks like) too.
WHat is the White splash adding to your deck against Show & Tell? If those 3 decks are problematic I would splash Black for Cabal Therapy (veeeery good vs. Show & Tell of all sorts) and Perish/Nature's Ruin against Maverick and Shardless.

[Zombie]

Many Show and Tell decks run Leyline of Sanctity. Nothing like playing a broken combo deck immune to discard ;__;

[GoboLord]

Many Show and Tell decks run Leyline of Sanctity. Nothing like playing a broken combo deck immune to discard ;__;

i'm not sure what this was reffering to, but if you were pointing out that Cabal Therapy isn't a good choice vs. S&T decks, then think about this:

Would you, playing S&T, want to have Leyline of Sanctitiy in your deck after G1 if you are playing vs. Goblins? i.e. Would you expect Goblins to bring in discard spells?

[Zombie]

Depending on what lands I saw, hell yes? Therapy is an obvious SB card and brutal if it works, especially in decks packing Probe or with as much CA/fodder as Goblins and Leyline only costs a card to play. Now, if you side in the black mana too, that's a different matter.

To clarify: I'm not saying that Therapy is bad, on the contrary. I'm just saying that vs. Show and Tell you need enchantment hate too or you risk them just blanking your hate and laughing all the way to the bank.

[GoboLord]

Depending on what lands I saw, hell yes? Therapy is an obvious SB card and brutal if it works, especially in decks packing Probe or with as much CA/fodder as Goblins and Leyline only costs a card to play. Now, if you side in the black mana too, that's a different matter.

To clarify: I'm not saying that Therapy is bad, on the contrary. I'm just saying that vs. Show and Tell you need enchantment hate too or you risk them just blanking your hate and laughing all the way to the bank.

Okay, now I got you right. Thanks for clarification.
It's usually hard for them to see discard coming (at least in Goblins) because we are not packing multiple B mana-sources, not to mention that we don't have any B card in MD. The land-package that supports the B (or in fact: any) splashcolor is usually 5-6 Fetchlands and 1, max. 2 Duallands of the color in question. We don't need to fetch the dualland G1 so we don't give away that information. Even IF I had revealed my B-splash in G1 I would not bring in enchantment hate to counter their Leylines, bc if they DON'T drop it then they blanked your enchantment hate :laugh: I'd just bring in the Therapies and risk being blank'ed by Leylines. They also take the risk of having a 'dead' (not really dead bc of Brianstorm) draw if they draw a Leyline after Turn 0.

[Zombie]

Your enchantment hate can easily be Oblivion Rings.

[GoboLord]

Your enchantment hate can easily be Oblivion Rings.

Sure, you can play a Rwb list with half your SB dedicated to Show and Tell.dec with including a card that is too bad as an answer to Show and Tell and too clunky to be an effective enchantment removal spell. Plus, you will likely be running less than 4 Rishadan Ports which is one of the better cards in this MU. Also I wonder what you think the match will look like: are you planning on casting Oblivion Ring on Turn 3 to be able to Use Cabal Therapy on Turn 4? This would mean you don't drop a creature on turn 3, neither do you use Rishadan Ports...and that all doesn't even work if you don't have both Cabal Therapy AND Oblivion Ring....I mean playing O-Ring as an answer to Leyline only makes sense if you have Cabal Therapy too. This scenario doesn't even cosnider situations when your opponent doesn't have a Leyline in play....

Overall that doesn't sound like a good plan to me,

[Zombie]

Port. Right. Too used to pointy-eared gits who make mana, I guess. Argument conceded. ^^

[Sockosensei]

My second time playing goblins at my local shop didn't go so well.

Main deck:
Tietze's Atlanta main deck except
-1 Warchief
+1 Chieftain
-1 SGC
+1 Krenko

Sideboard:
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Chalice
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thalia
1 Canonist
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Rd 1: vs. Food Chain-Misthollow Griffin-Emrakul 1-2 loss
Rd 2: vs. Esper Deathblade 1-1 tie
Rd 3: vs. Esper Stoneblade 1-1 tie

I felt like I played the games reasonably well. I had one questionable keep that lost a game. The biggest issue though was sideboarding: I try not to over-sideboard so as not to weaken the goblin density. Tonight I probably should have cut more.

jrw1985:
I'd like to try your list.
What's your sideboarding strategy vs specific matchups, especially Esper and RUG?

[Zombie]

O-Ring and Therapy combined might be bad in Goblins and there might be no room in the mana base, but I won't budge on Mindbreak Trap being a bad card :tongue:

Seriously, play literally anything else. Most combo decks nowadays aren't so absurdly fast - they're resilient. Most also laugh at a single Trap. The main case where Trap is any good is Belcher, and Belcher is Belcher. It loses to itself. Invest in loaded dice or something. Play REB or Wear//Tear. ANYTHING but Trap.

[jrw1985]

My second time playing goblins at my local shop didn't go so well.

Main deck:
Tietze's Atlanta main deck except
-1 Warchief
+1 Chieftain
-1 SGC
+1 Krenko

Sideboard:
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Chalice
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thalia
1 Canonist
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Rd 1: vs. Food Chain-Misthollow Griffin-Emrakul 1-2 loss
Rd 2: vs. Esper Deathblade 1-1 tie
Rd 3: vs. Esper Stoneblade 1-1 tie

I felt like I played the games reasonably well. I had one questionable keep that lost a game. The biggest issue though was sideboarding: I try not to over-sideboard so as not to weaken the goblin density. Tonight I probably should have cut more.

jrw1985:
I'd like to try your list.
What's your sideboarding strategy vs specific matchups, especially Esper and RUG?

Against RUG delver I'm bringing in Blood Moon. Against esperblade I'd bring in tuktuk always, and I'll bring in Blood Moon if I don't see any basic lands G1. I tried building a super anti-esper sideboard and it didn't do much for me, so I'd suggest just playing your game. If you can keep their equipment offline, and you can keep Jace from getting out of hand, then you should be fine.

[Sockosensei]

Against RUG delver I'm bringing in Blood Moon. Against esperblade I'd bring in tuktuk always, and I'll bring in Blood Moon if I don't see any basic lands G1. I tried building a super anti-esper sideboard and it didn't do much for me, so I'd suggest just playing your game. If you can keep their equipment offline, and you can keep Jace from getting out of hand, then you should be fine.

Sorry, I should have specified -- what do you take out to make space? I find that aspect more difficult with this deck than with others because of not wanting to hurt the goblin synergy.

About Esper equipment, I was proud to have won a long drawn out game 1 vs Esper Stoneblade in which he got both Batterskull and Jitte online. My prime top decking skills pulled a timely Ringleader into 4 goblins, including Chieftain. Teamed with an active Krenko it was enough to overwhelm those poor equipped Lingering Souls.:laugh:

[jrw1985]

Sorry, I should have specified -- what do you take out to make space? I find that aspect more difficult with this deck than with others because of not wanting to hurt the goblin synergy.


I take out Piledrivers against RUG.

Against Shardless BUG I sided in 7 cards (4 Leyline of the Void, 2 Blood Moon, 1 Tuktuk Scrapper). I'm trying to remember what I sided out for them. I think I took out 3 Piledrivers (its always nice to leave 1 in), 1 land, 1 MWM, 1 gempalm,

[jrw1985]

Sorry, I should have specified -- what do you take out to make space? I find that aspect more difficult with this deck than with others because of not wanting to hurt the goblin synergy.

About Esper equipment, I was proud to have won a long drawn out game 1 vs Esper Stoneblade in which he got both Batterskull and Jitte online. My prime top decking skills pulled a timely Ringleader into 4 goblins, including Chieftain. Teamed with an active Krenko it was enough to overwhelm those poor equipped Lingering Souls.:laugh:

Against RUG
-2 Piledriver, +2 Blood Moon

Against Shardless BUG
-3 Piledriver, -1 MWM, -1 Mountain, -1 Gempalm, -1 SGC
+ 4 Leyline of the Void, 2 Blood Moon, 1 Tuktuk Scrapper

It was something like that. I won all three of the games I played against BUG. Leyline showed up one game and stalled them a bit, but it was landing a Blood Moon that really won the games for me.

[jrw1985]

Ah, forum posting via smartphone: Such a pain in the ass.

[Annatar]

Have to be honest here, I'm not really sure Blood Moon is what you should be looking for vs RUG. Even if you by some strange circumstance resolve a three mana enchantment, they can still burn you out, cast relevant removal spells like Lightning Bolt, Rough//Tumble etc and just do you in with the bigger creatures that they have already resolved. On top of all that, if you do resolve a Blood Moon you lose access to your non-basic lands which are at their very best in this particular matchup (Cavern of Souls and Wasteland).

From my experience good cards against them after sideboarding come down to: Chalice of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, Boartusk Liege.

Chalice is probably better left for games in which you are on the play, but even then it might not be as effective if they see it coming. Relic is there to manage Goyfs and other ground pounders. Boartusk Liege is an option if you know them to be on Rough//Tumble. Unlike other lords it doesn't die to Lightning Bolt which is it's best merit by far.

[orcanmail]

I found that the Thalia list with Rishadan Ports was failing to contain other Legacy decks; Deathrites, Hierarchs just keep their mana flowing. I tried the Winstigator list with Chrome Moxes and lo and behold I am now hearing the phrase "If only I had one more turn / mana!"
The extra speed from moxes, with chalice/thorn/traps in SB to slow them down when necessary, plus wastelands with the vials, seems to have tipped results back in my favour.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
3 Tarfire
3 MWM
2 Piledriver
2 Instigator ( 3rd could replace Krenko )
2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm
4 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
1 Krenko
2 SGC

2 Chrome Mox
4 Caverns
4 Wastelands
12 Mountains

SB

3 Pyrokenisis
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Chalice
3 Mindbreak Traps
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Boartusk Liege ( E.Plagues and abrupt decays are common in my meta )

Not such a mid range deck, but back to aggro!!! Way to go and drop the Ports and Sharpshooter. Krenkotastic!

[jrw1985]

Have to be honest here, I'm not really sure Blood Moon is what you should be looking for vs RUG. Even if you by some strange circumstance resolve a three mana enchantment, they can still burn you out, cast relevant removal spells like Lightning Bolt, Rough//Tumble etc and just do you in with the bigger creatures that they have already resolved. On top of all that, if you do resolve a Blood Moon you lose access to your non-basic lands which are at their very best in this particular matchup (Cavern of Souls and Wasteland).

From my experience good cards against them after sideboarding come down to: Chalice of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, Boartusk Liege.

Chalice is probably better left for games in which you are on the play, but even then it might not be as effective if they see it coming. Relic is there to manage Goyfs and other ground pounders. Boartusk Liege is an option if you know them to be on Rough//Tumble. Unlike other lords it doesn't die to Lightning Bolt which is it's best merit by far.

Blood Moon is good against RUG for a few reasons. First, they usually side out counter spells g2, so it won't be difficult to resolve BM. Second, once BM hits play the RUG player will never be able to resolve a delver, goose, or Goyf. All you need to do at that point is draw out the creatures they've already resolved and you'll win. They won't have enough burn to kill you. As far as BM turning off your Caverns and Wastes: That doesn't really matter. Under a BM the only spells RUG can resolve are FoW, bolt, and chain lighting, so you're not going to need your Caverns or Wastes anymore anyway.

Resolving a BM says "You need to win with what you have on-board Right Now. I get to keep playing Magic."

You are correct about Relic being great against them. Chalice is good too, when you can land it, but they pack Ancient Grudge sb, so they have answers. They have no answer to BM. Liege seems pretty vanilla against them too.

[Annatar]

Blood Moon is good against RUG for a few reasons. First, they usually side out counter spells g2, so it won't be difficult to resolve BM. Second, once BM hits play the RUG player will never be able to resolve a delver, goose, or Goyf. All you need to do at that point is draw out the creatures they've already resolved and you'll win. They won't have enough burn to kill you. As far as BM turning off your Caverns and Wastes: That doesn't really matter. Under a BM the only spells RUG can resolve are FoW, bolt, and chain lighting, so you're not going to need your Caverns or Wastes anymore anyway.

Resolving a BM says "You need to win with what you have on-board Right Now. I get to keep playing Magic."


If they are taking out counterspells to make room for more removal and effective artifact solutions like Ancient Grudge then Blood Moon really is insane against them. I have some hazy memory that they tend to cut FoW after sideboarding, but I don't know how this works from RUG's perspective so I can't really discuss it properly. Probably makes sense if they tend to bring in more removal spells for the sideboard games.

[GoboLord]

Blood Moon is good against RUG for a few reasons. First, they usually side out counter spells g2, so it won't be difficult to resolve BM. Second, once BM hits play the RUG player will never be able to resolve a delver, goose, or Goyf. All you need to do at that point is draw out the creatures they've already resolved and you'll win. They won't have enough burn to kill you. As far as BM turning off your Caverns and Wastes: That doesn't really matter. Under a BM the only spells RUG can resolve are FoW, bolt, and chain lighting, so you're not going to need your Caverns or Wastes anymore anyway.

Resolving a BM says "You need to win with what you have on-board Right Now. I get to keep playing Magic."

You are correct about Relic being great against them. Chalice is good too, when you can land it, but they pack Ancient Grudge sb, so they have answers. They have no answer to BM. Liege seems pretty vanilla against them too.


Well, you are right about them taking out countermagic. But they will also bring in Pyroclasm/Rough//Tumble. I think Blood Moon is only good if you resolve it at a moment when you think you can take control of the boardstate soon. If you can't do that you are likely to die in the way that Annatar described: they cast removal to bring their creatures through. So IMO Blood Moon is a risky enterprise. I think that the major problem with this MU is that you need to stay alive until midgame and I don't think that Blood oon helps with that (neither does Chalice or Boartusk Liege).
Right now I'm keeping an eye on Perish, since I'm sold on the B splash anyway (for Cabal Therapy <3)

[jrw1985]

Well, you are right about them taking out countermagic. But they will also bring in Pyroclasm/Rough//Tumble. I think Blood Moon is only good if you resolve it at a moment when you think you can take control of the boardstate soon. If you can't do that you are likely to die in the way that Annatar described: they cast removal to bring their creatures through. So IMO Blood Moon is a risky enterprise. I think that the major problem with this MU is that you need to stay alive until midgame and I don't think that Blood oon helps with that (neither does Chalice or Boartusk Liege).
Right now I'm keeping an eye on Perish, since I'm sold on the B splash anyway (for Cabal Therapy <3)

I don't think Rough // Tumble has any bearing on the playability of BM.

BM doesn't change your strategy at all. You still need to draw them into deep water by chumping while building your horde. BM just prevents the RUG player from building their side of the board after it resolves. Because once BM resolves, RUG can only cast burn. It can't sculpt, dig, fetch, or play creatures (which are its win-cons, Not the burn they still have access to).

So I don't think playing BM against RUG is a risky move or suboptimal. I think Moon is well positioned to wreck super greedy manabases that are all over the metagame.

[ScatmanX]

I don't think Rough // Tumble has any bearing on the playability of BM.

BM doesn't change your strategy at all. You still need to draw them into deep water by chumping while building your horde. BM just prevents the RUG player from building their side of the board after it resolves. Because once BM resolves, RUG can only cast burn. It can't sculpt, dig, fetch, or play creatures (which are its win-cons, Not the burn they still have access to).

So I don't think playing BM against RUG is a risky move or suboptimal. I think Moon is well positioned to wreck super greedy manabases that are all over the metagame.
I kind of agree with you. Just be aware to do not over-sideboard. You don't want to bring in all Blood Moons, Relics and Chalices, and screw your Ringleaders. You still need the card advantage.
But you convinced me to play Blood Moon again, and your list is awesome.

(yeah, I still read this sometimes. But my country is kind of a mess right not, and is exhausting)

[max_goblin]

I kind of agree with you. Just be aware to do not over-sideboard. You don't want to bring in all Blood Moons, Relics and Chalices, and screw your Ringleaders. You still need the card advantage.
But you convinced me to play Blood Moon again, and your list is awesome.

(yeah, I still read this sometimes. But my country is kind of a mess right not, and is exhausting)

First I liked the idea of playing BM´s. Since Wizards has weakened all the counterspells, playing cards like BM and Linving Death are nice techs.

btw It can be exhausting, but I also live in Brazil and I am really happy and excited about all the moves being made here. This is important ScatmanX, we have a shot for a decent country.

I really like the Winstigator lists people countinue to come with and I think they are the best option now, but I can´t play them properly.. I guess I am more of a control aggro guy =]

Other thing. Gobolord, there is any discussion about intruder alert + kiki jiki/krenko? I know it is not that awesome, but it can hurt some matchs like by freezing some big dudes, and the possibility of a instant kill is very nice. Sharpshooter and Lightning Crafter would like this card too.

Thx.

[GoboLord]

Other thing. Gobolord, there is any discussion about intruder alert + kiki jiki/krenko? I know it is not that awesome, but it can hurt some matchs like by freezing some big dudes, and the possibility of a instant kill is very nice. Sharpshooter and Lightning Crafter would like this card too.

I'm pretty sure that we havn't discussed this yet.

Some time ago (~2 years) I was tinkering some decklist with Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite (or Deceiver Exarch for that purpose).
I think that both cards are better choices than Intruder Alarm for two reasons:
(1) Intruder Alarm hurts you more than anyone else. The more creatures you have the worse Intruder alarm is. Also it untaps your opponent's creatures as well, which is quite unhandy.
(2) Pestermite and Exarch are more easy to put into play (Cavern of Souls, AEther Vial, having Flash)
(3) both of them have bodies, which can either deal damage (the Fairy) or stall some creatures, like small Goyfs, Mongeese, Confidants and the like (the Cleric). This means that they have value even without Kiki-Jiki in play.
//EDIT: I just noticed that both cards can tap down cretures that were put into play with Show and Tell (and even with Sneak Attack if you can produce :2:U)
//EDIT2: both creatures can even be used as temporary mana-denial - if that is of any importance...
I have not extensively tested this, but I can imagine you can steal a game or two with the surprise-factor of this combo. I wouldn't adivice to focus on Kiki-Jiki too much though (i.e. don't run additional creatures that only really work in combo with him and/or Pestermite). Apart form that I think BLUE has some surprising SB-cards to offer as well, especially if you want to beat Combo-decks. (Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Daze). That doesn't mean I'm advocating the BLUE splash though...

[Dice_Box]

If I was thinking about splashing blue this would be a way I would go. Opps I win can be fun, I like this. The only question I have in my mind is, without Kiki do these creatures really stand to help us on there own. While the answer is yes, they do not help to the same level something like Thalia does. Thus if I was splashing, I would rather go for something that will constantly help my game plan than something that is a non goblin that will help me only with the right situation.

[ScatmanX]

pestermite/exarch
Another nice thing is that, if you open with Vial, you can T4 kill them. (Vial will have 3 counters, you use Pestermite to untap one of your lands, and you'll have 5 mana)

That said, the W splash is working better for us, and some editions ago we recieved a W card that can combo with Kiki and, imo, is better in a LOT of situations> Restauration Angel. It protects you from removal, blinks Sting/MWM/Matron/Rignleaer/Krenko for value, wins with kiki, is a 3/4 flyers non goblin.
There are lists on The Council that play him, if someone bother to look for it. I'd happly test it.

[fimo]

I found that the Thalia list with Rishadan Ports was failing to contain other Legacy decks; Deathrites, Hierarchs just keep their mana flowing.

Rishadan port and Thalia' s main purpose is to contain combo decks. Combo decks are our weakest MU and thalia is there for helping with that. She has an impact the moment she hits the battelfield, she doesn t need to wait untill your next turn in order to do something (unlike Warren Instigator). However, even with Deathrites your opponent will be slowed down by mana denial untill you assemble the combo haste+krenko or matron+ringleader and win from there.
Mana dorks weakens the mana denial plan in the way that they provide a way out to color crew. However, mana denial will reduce their total available mana no matter what. Mana denial slows down also decks containing mana dorks. In fact, rishadan port can find a use even against a deck like elves combo which is full of mana dorks.

@kiki-jiki combo: kiki-jiki combo is really sweet and restoration angel seems awsome for many other situations. However, the old boring question to ask yourself is: does this help me against my weakest MUs? It is too slow against combo decks and against the rest haste+krenko is easier and faster to assemble.

[Annatar]

How do you guys feel about playing Tarfire again as a mindeck solution to Deathrite Shaman? It seems to be the cleanest solution to that card, and already deals with quite a lot of other relevant creatures too. One thing it has going against it is that, as all removal spells, it is a dud in the combo matchup.

EDIT: Upon closer inspection, it seems quite a lot of people are playing it already. So my next question would be what is the most optimal removal composition at this moment?

[Potdindy]

How do you guys feel about playing Tarfire again as a mindeck solution to Deathrite Shaman? It seems to be the cleanest solution to that card, and already deals with quite a lot of other relevant creatures too. One thing it has going against it is that, as all removal spells, it is a dud in the combo matchup.

EDIT: Upon closer inspection, it seems quite a lot of people are playing it already. So my next question would be what is the most optimal removal composition at this moment?

I have been playing with 3 Incinerators, 2 Tarfire, and 1 Stingscourger, plus the Sharpshooter and it seems to be really solid. Tarfire seems bad, being only a Goblin shock, but it does so much. It kills Bob, Stoneforge Mystic, DRS, and also is excellent against Elves or Hierarch decks because it allows us to burn their turn 1 mana dork and keep them from the extra mana. I have a buddy who enjoys comboing off Glimpse of Nature on turn 2-3, but if I burn his first elf...many times its game over because now I have an extra turn/land to get to Matrons, and Sharpshooter.

It is kindof a dud against combo...no it totally is except I have several times burned a Tendrils player when he was at 2 life because of Ad Nausium...feels really good. I like Tarfire, though still not sure to put it or Thalia in that slot.

[GoboLord]

Another nice thing is that, if you open with Vial, you can T4 kill them. (Vial will have 3 counters, you use Pestermite to untap one of your lands, and you'll have 5 mana)

That said, the W splash is working better for us, and some editions ago we recieved a W card that can combo with Kiki and, imo, is better in a LOT of situations> Restauration Angel. It protects you from removal, blinks Sting/MWM/Matron/Rignleaer/Krenko for value, wins with kiki, is a 3/4 flyers non goblin.
There are lists on The Council that play him, if someone bother to look for it. I'd happly test it.

First of all, I agree with you: Restoration Angel is indeed better than Perstermite and Exarch for this purpose.
Second, I did a few test-runs yesterday with a decklist that featured 4 Pestermite and 1 Kiki-Jiki. I didn't like the Twiddle-Fairy at all and I put them into my SB after EVERY game 1. I included Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm in my board, which were quite nice. I think those two instants are viable SB choices - not only vs. Combo decks, but also vs severaly problematic cards like Engineered Plague, Pyroclasm (& Rough, & Firespout) .... in other words, they are nice if you want to counter board-sweepers.
Kiki-Jiki was quite good too (surprise) and I most often could copy a Matron or Ringleader before he ate a removalspell.

That being said I conclude 3 things:
* Pestermite, Exarch and Intruder Alarm will be added to the "bad cardchoices" section
* Restoration Angel is better than those cards, but probably not what we want either
* Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm are promising and will be added to the "to be tested" section

[goblinsplayer]

3-1ed the legacy challenge today. Matches were..

ANT: 2-1
Deathblade:1-2
Deathblade:2-1
Junk: 2-0

Winning six packs. Weak

[GoboLord]

3-1ed the legacy challenge today. Matches were..

ANT: 2-1
Deathblade:1-2
Deathblade:2-1
Junk: 2-0

Winning six packs. Weak


Thanks for the results. Could you edit your posting and add your decklist so I can include it in my analysis?

[goblinsplayer]

Thanks for the results. Could you edit your posting and add your decklist so I can include it in my analysis?
I'll add it after the open today. Time to smash deathblade.

[goblinsplayer]

4-1 in the open with goblins. Wish me luck.

[max_goblin]

Please.. someone make something clear to me.

I was watching the 6th match of SCG, looking Max T give us another good ideas for how goblins should be played.
The first game was nice. But please the second and third ones.. can anyone explains me WHY, why he wanted so much the green splash? Only for TSH for Pithing Needle? He lost both games with that goblin doing nothing on the board.. he cracked a relic too soon, and that card buy us a lot of time.. I really dont understand half of this actions. So if anyone can make it clear for me, I would be pleased.

Thx.

[Bichon_Blitz]

he cracked a relic too soon, and that card buy us a lot of time.. I really dont understand half of this actions. So if anyone can make it clear for me, I would be pleased.

Thx.

I can't think of a good reason to crack relic there. He was super mana screwed, relied too much on his vial resolving. Still, cracking your relic against RUG on t3 or 4, I was shaking my head.

[magicmerl]

Please.. someone make something clear to me.

I was watching the 6th match of SCG, looking Max T give us another good ideas for how goblins should be played.
The first game was nice. But please the second and third ones.. can anyone explains me WHY, why he wanted so much the green splash? Only for TSH for Pithing Needle? He lost both games with that goblin doing nothing on the board.. he cracked a relic too soon, and that card buy us a lot of time.. I really dont understand half of this actions. So if anyone can make it clear for me, I would be pleased.

Thx.
Green also gives you Krosan Grip.

[Dice_Box]

I have not seen the video, but is it possible he cracked the Relic to draw a card? If he was mana screwed he might have been looking for a mana.

[jrw1985]

4-1 in the open with goblins. Wish me luck.

Did you finish in the money?

[DredgingLoam]

I am sorry if this has already been brought up or asked, but has anyone tried a Stoneforge Mystic package? Sideboarding Manriki-Gusari for Batterskull and Basilisk Collar to pair with Sharpshooter to wipe the board against aggro matches alongside Jitte/Batterskull of our own mainboard. It seems possible since we are already splashing white for Thalia.

[GoboLord]

I am sorry if this has already been brought up or asked, but has anyone tried a Stoneforge Mystic package? Sideboarding Manriki-Gusari for Batterskull and Basilisk Collar to pair with Sharpshooter to wipe the board against aggro matches alongside Jitte/Batterskull of our own mainboard. It seems possible since we are already splashing white for Thalia.

Yup, it has been tried by some people (including me) about 2 years ago. As far as I can remember the idea was discarded quickly thereafter, mainly because SFM + Equipments didn't fit the aggressive strategy well, and ate up too much mana. I tested 3 SFMs paired with any combination of those equipments:
Umezawa's Jitte
Infiltration Lens
Batterskulls
Basilisk Collar

I concluded that Basilisk Collar was the only card that did something impactful and that it should be tested in combination with Sparksmith rather than SFM.

[LeoCop 90]

I was watching the scg live and there was a guy playing goblins turn 7 , he was at a 4-2 score. I don't know if he was "goblinsplayer" but aniway he unfortunately lost to maverick. Game 1 the maverick player had a sword of fire and ice main deck and he cast armageddon after having it equipped. Game 2 turn 1 lackey, maverick zenith for dryad arbor, waste driad arbor lackey connects and cheats in siege-gang commander, but then the goblin guy missed land drops for about 7-8 turns and eventually lost.

aniway his list was R/B with Wort,Boggart Auntie and goblin tinkerer as artifact hate. I think he also played warren weirding, i don't know the sideboard.

[max_goblin]

My doubt was, why, why he wanted that much artifact hate ou enchantment hate?
RUG dont play Eplage, Equipment, or anything that is really a problem to us in form of artifact or enchantment. So, you crack your relic, that probably can give you at least 2~3 turns of life, in order to draw a card, ok. But then you fetch for a taiga? When you are in need of lands? Agains RUG+wasteland?

In that moment I would only went for my splash if it could win the game for me, and that is my problem, I can´t see it, and I prefer to imagine that I am blind rather than Max T is dumb.

Anyway, was nice to see a gempalm hitting the table for an alpha strike =]

[ScatmanX]

I also don't get why he kept TSH postboard. Maybe he thinks it's better than Kinesis or ReB to increase the goblin count, but I disagree. Don't get why he searched the Taiga G3 too.
Cracking the Relic, though questionable, I could back up. Don't think it was a bad play if he didn't had more plays. He was taking 3 a turn, so he needed to be able to race or find an answer. The extra card was needed for that.

Edit: Andrew got quite unlucky on his 2nd game. Sad to see it.

[EluThingol]

I also don't get why he kept TSH postboard. Maybe he thinks it's better than Kinesis or ReB to increase the goblin count, but I disagree. Don't get why he searched the Taiga G3 too.
Cracking the Relic, though questionable, I could back up. Don't think it was a bad play if he didn't had more plays. He was taking 3 a turn, so he needed to be able to race or find an answer. The extra card was needed for that.

Edit: Andrew got quite unlucky on his 2nd game. Sad to see it.

Agreed on all counts. The Relic play wasn't obviously bad in the situation he was facing. But I was also perplexed about the Taiga fetch, not to mention keeping in TSH to begin with--Pithing Needle is the only thing I've seen RUG bring in and that's sort of an outside case. Seems to me like TSH is an auto-SB in that case in favor of REB, but then again, I have no idea what he did or didn't bring in from the board. And really, MaxT knows more about the deck than I ever will if I play it for another sixty years.

That G2 really was brutal. Any land drops and the guy is in great position to win it. T2 SGC ought to be money in the bank when the opponent isn't holding an answer.

[LeoCop 90]

Well, if RUG is going to side in pithing needle is reasonable to keep 1 hooligan in. Needle shuts off your best cards against RUG, namely aether vial and Relic of progenitus.

For sure I wouldn't side in krosan grips, but 1 hooligan is fine in my opinion.

[fimo]

That G2 really was brutal. Any land drops and the guy is in great position to win it. T2 SGC ought to be money in the bank when the opponent isn't holding an answer.

Or if he dropped a krenko instead of a SGC he would have won. The nice thing about connecting with lackey->krenko is that you can use your mana to play your hand and meanwhile krenko will lead to the win. SGC requires mana and if you are mana starved like he was you cannot neither get use of it nor play goblins in your hand. Not drawing a second land for so many turn is unfair anyway...

[Hof]

I had the opportunity to watch a couple of the SCG matches with goblins involved this sunday, and one thing I noticed was how weak Wasteland always seemed to be on the goblin side. Most of the time it was a colorless producing nonbasic land, and the few times where its sac ability was used it didn't change much, such as when the Threshold player already had 3 lands in play.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Hello,
Long time lurker here.

Went to a local Legacy tournament for 3 round, only 9 players.

My List (Basically Max Teitze list):

//Lands (23)
3 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

//Core [26]
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan

//Sideboard
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Confusion in the Ranks
3 Pyrokinesis

Round 1 - Shardless BUG Control
Game 1 - He simply fell over. My first turn Goblin Lackey never connected as he put a Deathrite Shaman in the way but I dropped a second turn 2 with an Aether Vial. The connect on the following turn let Siege-Gang Commander do his job. A strong card alone. Better when you follow it up with Skirk Prospector and Goblin Sharpshooter amongst others.
I side boarded in 3 Relic of Progenitus and took out 1 Piledriver, Stingscourger and Goblin Sharpshooter
Game 2 - As always my turn 1 Goblin Lackey had a Deathrite Shaman in the way. It ground into a long game with him getting a Pernicious Deed out and 5 mana. I dropped a Siege-Gang Commander for the full 5 mana to entice his deed. After that worked I dropped a second Siege-Gang Commander from my hand.

Round 2 - Storm
Game 1 - I kept an opening of Mountain, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Cavern of Souls, Aether Vial and a Goblin Piledriver. Against storm, I can live with that. I wasted his first land drop and he missed land drops for 2 turns. He attempted to go off and fizzled pretty badly on his Ad Nauseum and I got to hit him again.
I sided in 3 Thalia and 3 Relic of Progenitus (as I saw a Cabal Ritual). I took out 4 Gempalm Incinerators, Stingscourger and Goblin Sharpshooter
Game 2 - I mulled to 4 to find Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 2 Rishadan Port, and Goblin Piledriver. I held down his land for 1 turn, found a Cavern of souls and snap named human. 4 turns passed of me porting and bashing for 2 till I found a Mountain. When he was at 12 life he stormed out and fizzled into 8 goblins. That actually stopped my attacks long enough for him to build a new hand and pull the sideboard Empty the Warrens with Burning Wish for 26 goblins this time. I had the matron, haste and mana, too bad I boarded out my Goblin Sharpshooter.
Game 3 - Turn 1 Waste a Gemstone Mine, Turn 2 Mountain Vial, Turn 3 Rishadan Port, lackey off vial on End of Turn. It was all really good news for me. Apparently I'm pretty lucky.

Round 3 - BUG Control (BUG Walkers (sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56688) wielded by Mike Kletz, a local player)
We called it a draw as it was a 3 round tournament and we still got store credit this way. We played it out anyway.
Game 1 - My turn 1 lackey was once again interrupted by a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman. After 2 turns of do nothing plays, involving a small Tarmogoyf (Wasn't mainboard in his original list) and a Mogg War Marshal he dropped a Garruk Relentless and started wolfing. The game continued to stall and he was beginning to get Life from the Loam online recurring Wastelands and Cabal Pit. I vialed in a Gobin Ringleader, and Gempalmed two wolves. I took this moment to bash Garruks face in. I lost a large portion of my army. Two turns later my vial dropped a Siege-Gang Commander, he was wasting my lands, only had my 3 basics. We were both at low life totals so the double sacrifice off Siege-Gang Commander was all I needed to close out the game.
I boarded in 3 Relic of Progenitus. I took out 2 Goblin Piledriver and 1 Goblin Sharpshooter.
Game 2 - This game was very similar to the last game except I didn't win it. Right at the end he dropped an unexpected Engineered Plague. A new card in his list (He must have put it in because I stomped him last Monday).
I boarded in 2 Krosan Grip. I took out 1 Skirk Prospector and 1 Goblin Piledriver
Game 3 - I didn't have an aggressive start, but I figured it would be OK as he was playing a really slow deck. Around turn 3 he was board clogging with a Tarmogoyf and a Deathrite Shaman and I had 2 Mogg War Marshals, a Goblin Warchief and a Goblin Piledriver. It was quickly unclogged by an Engineered Plague. On my next turn I was holding the Krosan Grip and dropped a Fetch I had the luxury of being able to hold, brought out a Taiga and rid the world of that enchantment. Unfortunately the damage was done and I was not able to recover as fast as he was. A Jace, the Mind Sculptor caused my demise. I died with 6 cards in hand and my 3 mountains that he couldn't Wasteland.

Record:
2-0 Shardless BUG
2-1 Storm (Homebrew)
1-1-1 BUG Walkers (Though I lost it in 1-2)

Thoughts:
I think I'll keep Goblin Piledriver at lowest of 3 against Shardless BUG, most of their creatures are Blue in retrospect.
I prefer playing against storm, its actually the match up I have the most practice with. Sometimes you win, sometimes you waste them out.
BUG Walkers I was destroying a week ago (we played several games). With the addition of 2 Engineered Plague the game seems so much harder to beat. Especially since I don't have any lord effects.

After talking to several Storm players, they seem to fear Chalice of the Void an equal amount as Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. With this knowledge I'm going to change out my Plateau for a Mountain (Which is nice against Wasteland) and my SB Thalia's for Chalice of the Void.


@ Hof - I feel the same about Wasteland. You need to be really sure before you use it, goblins are incredibly mana hungry. I rarely use wasteland unless I can do it twice in a row, if I have surplus lands and its their first land drop, or if there is a utility land that needs to die. Mishra's Factory, Creeping Tar Pit, Maze of Ith etc. Also, against combo.

[ScatmanX]

Round 3 - BUG Control
I boarded in 3 Relic of Progenitus. I took out 2 Goblin Piledriver and 1 Goblin Sharpshooter.
...
I boarded in 2 Krosan Grip. I took out 1 Skirk Prospector and 1 Goblin Piledriver
Taking out Piledriver against control is usually a bad thing. You want to kill them fast, and Piledriver is the easiest way to do it.
Also, they are great against E.Plague too, since they can survive one, and sometimes bash for 4 or more. Keep them in against control decks, specially when thei're playing Plague.
You could have taken out Shooter (as you did), TSH, 2 Gempalms, Sting, and maybe even a MWM.

Another note: I know they play that manabase, but it just look so bad. Guess you agree now too.

Thanks for the quick report.

[magicmerl]

Round 2 - Storm
Game 1 - I kept an opening of Mountain, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Cavern of Souls, Aether Vial and a Goblin Piledriver. Against storm, I can live with that. I wasted his first land drop and he missed land drops for 2 turns. He attempted to go off and fizzled pretty badly on his Ad Nauseum and I got to hit him again.
I think you were pretty lucky to win this game here.



Round 3 - BUG Control (BUG Walkers (sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=56688) wielded by Mike Kletz, a local player)
We called it a draw as it was a 3 round tournament and we still got store credit this way. We played it out anyway.
Game 1 - My turn 1 lackey was once again interrupted by a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman. After 2 turns of do nothing plays, involving a small Tarmogoyf (Wasn't mainboard in his original list) and a Mogg War Marshal he dropped a Garruk Relentless and started wolfing. The game continued to stall and he was beginning to get Life from the Loam online recurring Wastelands and Cabal Pit. I vialed in a Gobin Ringleader, and Gempalmed two wolves. I took this moment to bash Garruks face in. I lost a large portion of my army. Two turns later my vial dropped a Siege-Gang Commander, he was wasting my lands, only had my 3 basics. We were both at low life totals so the double sacrifice off Siege-Gang Commander was all I needed to close out the game.
I boarded in 3 Relic of Progenitus. I took out 2 Goblin Piledriver and 1 Goblin Sharpshooter.
Game 2 - This game was very similar to the last game except I didn't win it. Right at the end he dropped an unexpected Engineered Plague. A new card in his list (He must have put it in because I stomped him last Monday).
I boarded in 2 Krosan Grip. I took out 1 Skirk Prospector and 1 Goblin Piledriver
Game 3 - I didn't have an aggressive start, but I figured it would be OK as he was playing a really slow deck. Around turn 3 he was board clogging with a Tarmogoyf and a Deathrite Shaman and I had 2 Mogg War Marshals, a Goblin Warchief and a Goblin Piledriver. It was quickly unclogged by an Engineered Plague. On my next turn I was holding the Krosan Grip and dropped a Fetch I had the luxury of being able to hold, brought out a Taiga and rid the world of that enchantment. Unfortunately the damage was done and I was not able to recover as fast as he was. A Jace, the Mind Sculptor caused my demise. I died with 6 cards in hand and my 3 mountains that he couldn't Wasteland.
I think what you want to deal with Planeswalkers is haste creatures. Given the number of creatures he had to play with I wouldn't have taken out removal spells. Here's the order I dislike your MD cards in: Prospector, Stingscourger, TSH, Piledriver/MWM (in a mix). So if you are bringing in 3 Relic and 2 Grips, I'd have cut one of each of those cards.


I think I'll keep Goblin Piledriver at lowest of 3 against Shardless BUG, most of their creatures are Blue in retrospect.
I prefer playing against storm, its actually the match up I have the most practice with. Sometimes you win, sometimes you waste them out.
BUG Walkers I was destroying a week ago (we played several games). With the addition of 2 Engineered Plague the game seems so much harder to beat. Especially since I don't have any lord effects.
You don't need lord effects. Haste creatures is enough.


After talking to several Storm players, they seem to fear Chalice of the Void an equal amount as Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. With this knowledge I'm going to change out my Plateau for a Mountain (Which is nice against Wasteland) and my SB Thalia's for Chalice of the Void.
I think you want BOTH CotV and Thalia vs Storm. 4 Hate cards is just not enough. I would ditch the Sulfur Elemental and 3 Confusion in the Ranks for 4 CotV.


@ Hof - I feel the same about Wasteland. You need to be really sure before you use it, goblins are incredibly mana hungry. I rarely use wasteland unless I can do it twice in a row, if I have surplus lands and its their first land drop, or if there is a utility land that needs to die. Mishra's Factory, Creeping Tar Pit, Maze of Ith etc. Also, against combo.
It depends on who wants their mana more in the matchup, and who currently has board position. If neither of those questions can be answered satisfactorially, then don't waste them.

[goblinsplayer]

Went 5-3 in the open to come in 40th place and collect my 50 dollars. Even got to be on feature match for about 6 minutes. Anyways, here's the list I played.

4 lackey
4 warchief
4 matron
4 ringleaer
3 incenerator
3 piledriver
3 tarfire
3 MWM
1 prospector
1 chieftain
1 krenko
1 sgc
1 sharpshooter
1 stingscourger
4 vial

11 mountain
3 port
4 wasteland
4 cavern

sb
3 pyrokinesis
4 cotv
3 relic
3 pyroblast
1 scrapper
1 stingscourger


I also played in the standard open to a miserable 3-3 drop. I signed up for the legacy challenge afterwards and went 3-1 to collect six packs. eww.
Anyways, onto the main event

Round 1: U/R delver
game 1: I kill all his creatures and beat face. He can't do anything.
game 2: Same thing except that there was a chalice on 1 on the board the whole time. this matchup is pretty much a bye anyways.
1-0

Round 2: Dredge
game 1: I show how good mogg war marshal is against his bridges from belows. I kill him shortly afterwards.
game 2: Relic of progenitus and a chalice for one got on the board. He cannot do anything.
2-0

Round 3: Deathblade
game 1: This is the only guy that beat me in the challenge. I kill stoneforge mystic and he can't do anything afterwards.
game 2: Geist suits up with batterskull and the game is shortly over.
game 3: This is a game where he has infinite swords to plowshares for my blocking of his geists. I'm on camera for the last 6 minutes and I lose horribly to a second geist when I killed the first one. gross.
2-1

Round 4: Shardless BUG
game 1: I mull down to 5 and see no color sources for the rest of the game. Goyf cleans me from my misery.
game 2: Krenko does some heavy lifting. Enough has been said
game 3: I wasteland and port him out of the game. He casts a shardless agent into a baleful strix. I cast pyrokinesis. In other words, I win.
3-1

Round 5: Omnitell
game 1: He turn 2s me. Apparently, release the ants is a playable card in legacy.
game 2: I kill him faster than he gets his combo online.
game 3: I port him out of 3 mana. I proceed to beat with piledriver and friends. He shows me a hand full of combo pieces afterwards.
4-1

Round 6: RUG delver
game 1: He gets nimble mongoose and delver online while I never draw a third land for my warchiefs and matrons. Frustrating.
game 2: Exactly like game one except throw a tarmogoyf in there.
4-2

Round 7: UWR miracles
game 1: I somehow think this is american delver after seeing a game where he has volcanic, tundra, tundra, and a geist on board. I overextend to terminus. shit.
game 2: I play around terminus and I deny his mana. I win afterwards.
game 3: He RIP helm kills me out of nowhere. Fuck this.
4-3

Round 8: U/R delver
game 1: Kill him with my adventure time tokens while I gempalm his delvers.
game 2: Same thing except with a tarfire involved.
5-3

Good enough for 40th place and my entry fee back. Yay. Now time to go home and the list overall felt great. Mono red is the best goblins splash in my opinion. My losses were due to my opponents being extremely lucky and some misplay involved. The changes I would make is take out a Krenko for a Siege-gang commander. Krenko didn't exactly pull it's weight. Thanks for reading.

[Bichon_Blitz]

game 2: Krenko does some heavy lifting. Enough has been said


The changes I would make is take out a Krenko for a Siege-gang commander. Krenko didn't exactly pull it's weight.

I don't want to rehash the krenko vs. sgc debate again, just pointing out that he shines against those midrangey decks when the board's at a stalemate. In talking to opponents, aside from t2 lackey connect into sgc, they're usually more scared of watching krenko activate and take a game over. The matchups you had I would think he would shine the most are deathblade (!), bug, and rug. just my $.02.

[jrw1985]

I don't want to rehash the krenko vs. sgc debate again, just pointing out that he shines against those midrangey decks when the board's at a stalemate. In talking to opponents, aside from t2 lackey connect into sgc, they're usually more scared of watching krenko activate and take a game over. The matchups you had I would think he would shine the most are deathblade (!), bug, and rug. just my $.02.

When the legends rule changes next month I want to start running a list with 2 Krenko, 1 Chieftain, 4 Warchief and 0 SGC. I already run 4 MWM so SGC's tokens aren't too needed, and I honestly don't recall using SGC's Shock ability much recently. Gempalm and stingscourger have been my main removal. We shall see, I guess.

[fimo]

When the legends rule changes next month I want to start running a list with 2 Krenko, 1 Chieftain, 4 Warchief and 0 SGC. I already run 4 MWM so SGC's tokens aren't too needed, and I honestly don't recall using SGC's Shock ability much recently. Gempalm and stingscourger have been my main removal. We shall see, I guess.

I don t think that the change in legend rule will make krenko any better, it will be so random to play both krenkos that it will probably be irrelevant. 2 krenkos is a very acceptable option even now though. On the other hand I suggest you to push the number of chieftains up to 3. Seven haste lords with a list running 2 krenkos 4 MWM is pretty damn amazing. You can shave off piledrivers since piledriver' s damage output is very well compensated by the +1/+1 and haste effect of chieftains. Living the dream of curving out T2 MWM, T3 chieftain, T4 krenko.

[magicmerl]

Agreed. I think that the legend rule will have a pretty marginal effect on Krenko. I think Thalia and Karakas are more affected by us, both in a good way. Death and Taxes would rather be able to waste us and frag our blocker, so not being able to kill them makes us a little more resilient when we play the control role in a matchup.

I still think that as a lackey target SGC gives you far more free wins than Krenko does.

[Dice_Box]

I agree on Thalia. With a Vial set to two you can watch one Thalia get hit with removal and while it is on the stack vial in the other never removing her effect from the stack.

[jrw1985]

I agree on Thalia. With a Vial set to two you can watch one Thalia get hit with removal and while it is on the stack vial in the other never removing her effect from the stack.

The new legends rule definitely makes Thalia better, but only in that super rare occasion you described. Multiple Krenko gets better any time you have a haste lord out. Matron and ringleader will make it easy to chain multiple Krenko activations together in one turn. And I think the clock Krenko puts on is significantly faster and less mana intensive than SGC as well.

[magicmerl]

The new legends rule definitely makes Thalia better, but only in that super rare occasion you described. Multiple Krenko gets better any time you have a haste lord out. Matron and ringleader will make it easy to chain multiple Krenko activations together in one turn. And I think the clock Krenko puts on is significantly faster and less mana intensive than SGC as well.

Give it a go and let us know how it turns out.

I personally found that the 2nd one is 'win more', but ymmv.

[jrw1985]

Give it a go and let us know how it turns out.

I personally found that the 2nd one is 'win more', but ymmv.

Perhaps it is WinMore, but maybe Krenko's just better now. I think they need to be compared, though its difficult to sort their influence on the game out. SGC gives you 4 goblins, but it also allows you to spend bodies and mana to either kill your opponents creatures or kill their life points. Krenko just gives you exponential goblins. So Krenko wins the game while SGC gives you better board position.

Cost: SCG is 5, Krenko is 4. In a world with abrupt decay and DRS it is much more difficult to connect with lackey or tick a vial all the way up. Krenkos cost makes it much easier to play than SGC.

Board state: SGC has a bigger immediate impact by bringing more bodies to the party faster, and by using burn to kill opposing creatures. Krenko however allows you to make so many tokens that your opponents creatures won't really matter anymore, and if you have a haste enabler Krenko becomes better than SGC for building your board.

Direct damage: SGC has it, Krenko doesn't. But does it matter? What x/2 creatures out there are so devastating that we need to rely on SGC over gempalm/stingscourger? And how often have you used SGC to burn out an opponent, and would exponential Krenko tokens be just as effective at winning those games anyway?

SGC seems strictly better than Krenko in only 3 scenarios I can think of. The first is T2 when you connect with lackey. This is the setup for our most likely t3 kill with Piledriver. The second scenario is when your opponent is at 4 or less life, because SGC can just end the game there. And the third scenario is when you're locked behind ensnaring bridge, elephant grass, et al. But playing with sharpshooter and prospector with Krenko essentially gives you the same direct damage outs anyway.

I dunno. Your thoughts?

[Annatar]

I enjoy playing Krenko and all, but I think we can't afford not to play SGC.

Adding to the reasons already stated, it makes sense to have at least one in the deck along with sharpshooter and prospector since it puts much less of a strain on your tutoring package when you need to win outside of combat via direct damage. As an example, if you need to win through Moat or something similar in effect, it's much easier to tutor out a single Siege-Gang Commander then it is to tutor for both Sharpshooter and Prospector.

[Dice_Box]

I am agreeing with the "Keep SGC" group here. Damage that you can send to the face is very powerful. Damage that you can send at a Deathrite or Gof is also useful. The other thing about SGC is his "Reload" ability. With Miracles enjoying sending our creatures to the bottom of our libraries or Jitte taking out our forces the 4 for 1 that SGC gives is important. Also while talking about Jitte, there is another reason to keep SGC.

I can see the appeal of more Krenko's but if we are going to explore that path, I think that is best done in a WInsertagor build for the help that Mox and WIn give to the deck. I think in the normal deck, its risk does not offer a high enough level of reward to merit cutting staples from the deck.

[GoboLord]

Perhaps it is WinMore, but maybe Krenko's just better now. I

[...]

I dunno. Your thoughts?

First of all, you brought up some very convincing arguments. However, I think you are focusing too much on Krenko's up-sides.

Here are some "downside" arguments (in-game situations):

* you put Krenko into play (instead of SGC) and you opponent has an removal spell immediately - i.e. before you get to tap activate Krenko. SGC would at least have left you with 3 tokens there
* you need to chump-block a Jitte-equipped creature. SGC does that better than Krenko. (Well, admittedly you can argue now that SGC is dead as soon as your opponent manages to put 2 counter on Jitte)
* other way round: you can attack for lethal damage...if only your opponent didn't have that pesky Jitte (or any other untapped Lifelink-creature). With SGC you can go all-in and use 2 mana to sacrifice the blocked creature to cancel the "whenever this creatures deals damage"-triggered ability. WIth Krenko you might have to wait 1 or 2 turns to get the same effect. But honestkly, 1-2 Turns are a lot in a format as fast as legacy.
* Krenko doesn't enable Turn 3 Kills as easily as SGC does
* your opponent attacks. You tap Vial to bring in SGC and chumpblock 2 of their creatures. Then you alpha-strike him on your next turn. Krenko doesn't do that. Remember how often we profit from such surprise-attacks ... SGC screws with their combat math really hard. Even if you DON'T have SGC in your hand, ticking up Vial at 5 can be a good bluff to keep you opp at bay.

I'm not entirely sure myself if the one or the other is better. However, I have a more practical approach to this issue: "Never change a winning team". As long as I'm unsure about Krenko vs. SGC and as long as SGC keeps performing well I see no reson to replace him. I'm not saying that SGC is strictly better than Krenko (that's debatable), but on the other hand, why should I cut a card that has already proven it's value? I mean we are probably talking about changing the decks win-% by 0,1% to 0,5% anyways. Sooo running the one or the other doesn't matter that much until someone brings up some REALLY good arguments for or against the one or the other. Keep in mind that neither creature is needed to win games, in the past tournament I even thought about cutting SGC entirely in favor of maxing out the creatures that do the job most of the time, like MWM and Piledriver (even Stingscourger) - simply because I didn't draw SGC too often lately.

//EDIT:
So far i have collected 381 recorded gamesin my analysis. I will present the results as soon as I have 400+ records. This might give provide another argument for either SGC or Krenko, or both. We'll see...

[fimo]

SCG is VERY expensive:
- (vial) The differece between 4 and 5 mana is huge because when you have vial @4 you need to thick it up at 5 meaning that it will be useless for the rest of the game. Vial really has to stay @4 for you to be able to chain ringleaders properly.
- Otherwise you can hardcast SGC if you are lucky to have enough mana for it. This mean that you are tapping out and you cannot use the sac ability untill your next turn. Next turn you can activate it one or twice whereas krenko would have DOUBLED you gobblos (if you had an haste lord you would have 4 times as many gobbos instead. If the haste lord was a chieftain you would have won the game in this very moment).
- SCG ability is mana intensive and once you have it on the board you need to invest a big amount of your resources to shoot goblins . Krenko instead does everything by himself, you have it on the board and he wins you the game while you are porting/wasting your opponent or playing more gobbos.
-krenko is yet another reason to play many chieftains will which are awsome.
-Krenko does' t care about your opponent board state. A tarmogoyf will prevent SCG and his gobbos to attack. Krenko will provide you infinite blockes and attackers for the win
-krenko (-> chieftain) is yet another reason to finally drop piledriver and make your MWM even more awsome.


grim lavamancer, pyroclasm and rough//thumble will kill SCG but krenko will survive and you will have a new army in few turns. And seriously I haven't seen moat or elephant grass in ages, ensnaring bridge is dealt by tuktuk scrapper/TSH or sharpshooter.

One of the big pros in SCG was that he was better at fighting equipments. However, he is not. They are both good and bad from time to time in this regard.

[Dice_Box]

Ok, if we are going to go down the path of talking about cutting SG, can we first have a shot at finding a way around Terminus. I think having two Krenko in the same turn is great, but if you lose one to the Legendary rule and then all your tokens to Brainstorm... Well you know what not to do game two I guess.

Also the point on Vial being used to drop SG is wasteful is a good one. But maybe it is my conservative nature but I really really don't feel comfortable dropping SGC.

[fimo]

* you need to chump-block a Jitte-equipped creature. SGC does that better than Krenko. (Well, admittedly you can argue now that SGC is dead as soon as your opponent manages to put 2 counter on Jitte)
* other way round: you can attack for lethal damage...if only your opponent didn't have that pesky Jitte (or any other untapped Lifelink-creature). With SGC you can go all-in and use 2 mana to sacrifice the blocked creature to cancel the "whenever this creatures deals damage"-triggered ability. WIth Krenko you might have to wait 1 or 2 turns to get the same effect. But honestkly, 1-2 Turns are a lot in a format as fast as legacy.


I disagree with these 2 statements. they are both good against batterskull: SCG will prevent lifelink, krenko will let you attack for 10+ their life total. Against jitte is hard in either way but 3 thoughness is huge here. SGC will be too slow to prevent the first 2 counters from jitte at which point SCG is a dead gobbo. Krenko instead is faster because it costs one mana less and it can survive one turn more (3 thoughness). In this time window I found myself being able to make enough goblins with krenko to be able to actually race jitte. Here getting a haste lord in play is crucial. It is not a piece of cake but it is doable

EDIT: @Dice_Box: miracles is a good MU anyway. we win it playing krenko and we win it playing SGC

[claudio.r]

I recently found my Goblins deck i was missing for some years!!!!

Question: Is this remotely competitive without Rishadan Ports? Because, to be honest... Ports are not getting any cheaper and it's too narrow of a card to be investing in, just to play it in Goblins...

[GoboLord]

I recently found my Goblins deck i was missing for some years!!!!

Question: Is this remotely competitive without Rishadan Ports? Because, to be honest... Ports are not getting any cheaper and it's too narrow of a card to be investing in, just to play it in Goblins...

Yes, absolutely. Being successful with Goblins does not depend on whether or not you have Rishadan Ports available. I'd suggest you read THIS (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=721502&viewfull=1#post721502) to get a good feeling of what makes Goblins successful nowadays.

[magicmerl]

I disagree with these 2 statements. they are both good against batterskull: SCG will prevent lifelink, krenko will let you attack for 10+ their life total. Against jitte is hard in either way but 3 thoughness is huge here. SGC will be too slow to prevent the first 2 counters from jitte at which point SCG is a dead gobbo. Krenko instead is faster because it costs one mana less and it can survive one turn more (3 thoughness). In this time window I found myself being able to make enough goblins with krenko to be able to actually race jitte. Here getting a haste lord in play is crucial. It is not a piece of cake but it is doable

EDIT: @Dice_Box: miracles is a good MU anyway. we win it playing krenko and we win it playing SGC
Once they start accruing counters on the Jitte the game is almost certainly lost for us. SGC prevents the accrual of counters. Krenko does not. That is a HUGE difference between the two.

This discussion really hinges on the times when one would have got the job done and the other would not have. I agree with you that it doesn't matter which one you had in the games where either would have won you the game. For example, most of the 'with a haste lord in play' scenarios floated about here would have been wins with either .

For me the key differences are:
1. SGC counts as a 'removal spell' in deck composition (I like to have 8-9 MD)
2. SGC stops equipment triggers
3. Krenko lives through a Pyroclasm/Rough, which decimates the rest of our board (however, Krenko is really bad by himself)
4. SGC is better off a T1 Lackey
5. Krenko can be saved with Karakas

That's roughly the order of importance I have for those relevant differences.


First of all, you brought up some very convincing arguments. However, I think you are focusing too much on Krenko's up-sides.

Here are some "downside" arguments (in-game situations):

* you put Krenko into play (instead of SGC) and you opponent has an removal spell immediately - i.e. before you get to tap activate Krenko. SGC would at least have left you with 3 tokens there
* you need to chump-block a Jitte-equipped creature. SGC does that better than Krenko. (Well, admittedly you can argue now that SGC is dead as soon as your opponent manages to put 2 counter on Jitte)
* other way round: you can attack for lethal damage...if only your opponent didn't have that pesky Jitte (or any other untapped Lifelink-creature). With SGC you can go all-in and use 2 mana to sacrifice the blocked creature to cancel the "whenever this creatures deals damage"-triggered ability. WIth Krenko you might have to wait 1 or 2 turns to get the same effect. But honestkly, 1-2 Turns are a lot in a format as fast as legacy.
* Krenko doesn't enable Turn 3 Kills as easily as SGC does
* your opponent attacks. You tap Vial to bring in SGC and chumpblock 2 of their creatures. Then you alpha-strike him on your next turn. Krenko doesn't do that. Remember how often we profit from such surprise-attacks ... SGC screws with their combat math really hard. Even if you DON'T have SGC in your hand, ticking up Vial at 5 can be a good bluff to keep you opp at bay.

I'm not entirely sure myself if the one or the other is better. However, I have a more practical approach to this issue: "Never change a winning team". As long as I'm unsure about Krenko vs. SGC and as long as SGC keeps performing well I see no reson to replace him. I'm not saying that SGC is strictly better than Krenko (that's debatable), but on the other hand, why should I cut a card that has already proven it's value? I mean we are probably talking about changing the decks win-% by 0,1% to 0,5% anyways. Sooo running the one or the other doesn't matter that much until someone brings up some REALLY good arguments for or against the one or the other. Keep in mind that neither creature is needed to win games, in the past tournament I even thought about cutting SGC entirely in favor of maxing out the creatures that do the job most of the time, like MWM and Piledriver (even Stingscourger) - simply because I didn't draw SGC too often lately.

//EDIT:
So far i have collected 381 recorded gamesin my analysis. I will present the results as soon as I have 400+ records. This might give provide another argument for either SGC or Krenko, or both. We'll see...
+1


SCG is VERY expensive:
- (vial) The differece between 4 and 5 mana is huge because when you have vial @4 you need to thick it up at 5 meaning that it will be useless for the rest of the game. Vial really has to stay @4 for you to be able to chain ringleaders properly.
- Otherwise you can hardcast SGC if you are lucky to have enough mana for it. This mean that you are tapping out and you cannot use the sac ability untill your next turn. Next turn you can activate it one or twice whereas krenko would have DOUBLED you gobblos (if you had an haste lord you would have 4 times as many gobbos instead. If the haste lord was a chieftain you would have won the game in this very moment).
- SCG ability is mana intensive and once you have it on the board you need to invest a big amount of your resources to shoot goblins . Krenko instead does everything by himself, you have it on the board and he wins you the game while you are porting/wasting your opponent or playing more gobbos.
-krenko is yet another reason to play many chieftains will which are awsome.
-Krenko does' t care about your opponent board state. A tarmogoyf will prevent SCG and his gobbos to attack. Krenko will provide you infinite blockes and attackers for the win
-krenko (-> chieftain) is yet another reason to finally drop piledriver and make your MWM even more awsome.

grim lavamancer, pyroclasm and rough//thumble will kill SCG but krenko will survive and you will have a new army in few turns. And seriously I haven't seen moat or elephant grass in ages, ensnaring bridge is dealt by tuktuk scrapper/TSH or sharpshooter.
Your pro-krenko arguements seem to assume that a hastelord will be in play as well.... This has the following implications:
a. If I have a Warchief in play, then my SGC will only cost 4 mana, so I can hit it on curve
b. Running multiples of Goblin Chieftain necessarily comes at an opportunity cost of having to cut cheaper goblins. So counterintuitively your deck becomes slower and less consistent. Goblins already has 'too many' 3 and 4 drops with Warchief, Matron and Ringleader. Loading up with even more of them makes the deck even more clunky.
c. With more RR spells the mana is more constrained and Port becomes a worse card


One of the big pros in SCG was that he was better at fighting equipments. However, he is not. They are both good and bad from time to time in this regard.
I'm at a loss for words here......

[fimo]

What I said about SGC/krenko and Jitte is:
-if jitte gets counters too fast you are dead anyway,
-if jitte gets counters too late it doesn t matter, SGC will prevent jitte from getting counters whereas krenko will build a huge army and you will win anyway
-if jitte will gets counters in the mid-game the fact that krenko comes down 1 turn earlier (on average) AND will survive 1 extra attack with jitte (3 thoughnes). At this point krenko will likely have had the chance to impact the game more than SGC.

SGC is flexible and ok-good at many things but not amazing in anything. krenko is amazing at creating board presence and can win the game by himself. SCG is much more mana intensive and covers roles that other goblins in the deck already do. We have matrons for tutoring up those goblins if we are in need. The deck is already ridicously mana hungry so why not lower the curve, make your vials better and adding an unique feature to the deck?

[Mr. Froggy]

I decided to change my ThaliaGoblins to mono-red instead, is that still okay?

[fimo]

I decided to change my ThaliaGoblins to mono-red instead, is that still okay?

you tell us :)

[jrw1985]

I decided to change my ThaliaGoblins to mono-red instead, is that still okay?

I've been having success with mono R lately. I'm also enjoying playing 2 md Pyrokinesis.

[ScatmanX]

I had 2 tournaments last week. The first one decided not to play goblins, and won 3-0-1 with a UWR control deck from Shimi. It rocked. It won me the spot to play the tournament from yesterday, which I decided to honor with the little green man.
Used my traditional monored instigator build
(-1 Bolt, +1 Tarfire, which was irrelevant, and 3-3 split Waste-Port, which I liked)) and SB of 4 LotV, 2 CotV, 2 Thorn, 1 Shooter, 1 Tuktuk, 2 Kinesis, 3 Blood Moon.
I guess that mostly because of Confederations Cup finals, we had a small attendance of 18 players.

Round 1 - Punishing Jund. 2-1
g1 - He gets Punishing/Grove online by T2 on the play.
g2 - Lackey hand with removal for Deathrite, into SGC, into T2 scoop from him.
g3 - He seizes, taking Lackey from Vial, 2 lands, Lackey, Bolt, Matron, Warchief. I draw Blood Moon, and play Vial, and he promptly discards Moon and Bolt with Tourach. He is, however, short on lands, and is left with only 2 Bayou after a Waste. He cast Shaman, I hit with a Chieftain. He play a Goyf and passes, I vial Warchief, and he Bolts it. My lucky draw Ringleader after Vial went to 4 (had only SCG on hand), draws me Sting and Piledriver, which along with the land I drew, and SGC fro vial, kill him trough his Jitte.

Round 2 - Black Maverick.
Game 1 - I end up with 8 lands into play, and his 5/5 knight eats me. A turn before I die I draw Matron, that brings Ringleader, that reveals 2 lands, Vial and Warchief. Not even close to enough.
Game 2 - He wastes 3 Caverns of Souls, and Abrupts a Vial, then proceeds to Knight me out of the game. Dispite that I had 2 Mountains, and Blood Moon would have turned the tide on a 4-5 turn window should I have drawn it. 2 Plagues later he's @4, I have bolt, but a Shaman starts beating me with Jitte, and the windown to burn him out never happened (had Vial @2 in case he removed some of his counters to pump Shaman, with Stingscourger, then drew a 2nd bolt, but couldn't make it).

Round 3 - TES
Game 1 - I know what he's playing. I'm on the play, and mull. He keeps. I mull again, then again, keeping Mountaing, Cavern, Lackey and Matron. He Probes, therapies, and cast Ad Nauseam T2 without landdrop and manafloating. He goes to 1, and can only manage to Grapeshot my dude, then me for 7. I draw a lackey 2 turns later and kill him =D
Game 2 - I Waste, then play land, then Thorn. He has Chain of Vapor, the AdNs me.
Game 3 - I start mulliganing again, where he keeps, I joke about going straight to 5, because the more I mull, the better my hand gets, so I draw the top 5 cards of my library, and put the 6th aside without looking, and say: keep. He laughs, and I start with Leyline, Mountain, Lackey, CotV@0, and passes, and see what my 6th card was. It was a Wasteland, which destroys his 1st land, while I drop SGC, then something else. On my 4th turn he was at 11, and I could deal only 9 attacking. A friend says after my opponent passes : "If you draw a land you kill him right?". I draw my card face down, attack, he goes to 2, then reveal the Caverns that I drew. Love being lucky.

Round 4 -Bug
Game 1 - He FoW my T1 Lackey on the play, but Vial sticks. I do get empty handed - Hymn while I had 2 cards in hand, Tarfire and Bolt, was fun - but a Ringleader saved my ass.
Game 2 - T2 Plague for him. sweet.
Game 3 - I lead with Lackey, he have removal, I get Wasted twice and lose easily.

Round 5 - Agroo Loam
Game 1 - His T4 he Devastating Dreams for 3, leaving me with 1 land, then I lose.
Game 2 - I lead with a fast Lackey hand, and he looses.
Game 3 - He plays T2 Crusher, T3 Dark Confidant. He had Mountain, Mox and Badlands, and missed his landdrop. I Wast Badlands, attack with Instigator (from a Vial), which he blocks with Confidant, and I have Port for his Mountain. He's locked out of lands by his own Crusher. I win.

Top 8 - Bug
Game 1 - a T2 Hymn takes Matron and Ringleader... Vial allows me to curve, and being agressive here wins e the game with a greater thread density.
Game 2 - I keep a lousy 6, and he deals with 2 lackeys and a Vial. I end the game with 1 Miountain.
Game 3 - I don't get to 3 mana, and am enable to cast Moon... that sucked.

Well, thats it. I really don't think my meta is good for goblins anymore (played against 4 decks with Plague and a combo). Maybe I'll stick with my friends deck or play combo myself. Don't think the traditional list would have done any better. Maybe something to deal with Plagues would...
Blood Moon would have been awesome if I could resolve it any game, but thats life...

[magicmerl]

The deck is already ridicously mana hungry so why not lower the curve, make your vials better and adding an unique feature to the deck?
I agree. However, I think that adding Chieftains to the deck is RAISING the mana curve, not lowering it. Since you're typically cutting 2CC goblins to fit in extra lords.

[Bichon_Blitz]

Damn scat, them's the breaks. Sounds like your losses were very unfortunate and your opponents had nutter butter hands, but that's magic. I've found that against plague, wear/tear works as good as k-grip 80-90% of the time, since the only decks that have counters in those (BUG, Esper which is now Deathblade) usually are siding most of their counters out g2. That meta seems like blood moon is a solid choice though. And if you're gonna stick to monored, more chieftains in the board would be better. I've actually considered this in my splash build cause chieftain is a lot more value than a one time spell that's not in our color.

[Sockosensei]

Used my traditional monored instigator build...

Could you post the list? I wasn't able to find it.

I put together a winstigator list, essentially Cedric Phillips' Rakdos build from 9/2012, but making it mono-red as I want to abuse my meta with Blood Moon :tongue:
I've got Pyrokinesis main in place of Warren Weirding, but I don't think that's the way to go; I'd like the removal to get
Lackey or Instigator through for damage on T2 or T3, but I'm unlikely to have enough targets for Pyrokinesis to get full value that early.
Is Tarfire good enough for this (while still having some value if drawn later) or should I look to Lightning Bolt?

[orcanmail]

Maybe something to deal with Plagues would...[/QUOTE]

Boartusk Liege, in an Instigator build with Chieftains. I often play through an e.plague and sometimes 2 with my Boartusk out of the SB.

[Final Fortune]

Could you post the list? I wasn't able to find it.

I put together a winstigator list, essentially Cedric Phillips' Rakdos build from 9/2012, but making it mono-red as I want to abuse my meta with Blood Moon :tongue:
I've got Pyrokinesis main in place of Warren Weirding, but I don't think that's the way to go; I'd like the removal to get
Lackey or Instigator through for damage on T2 or T3, but I'm unlikely to have enough targets for Pyrokinesis to get full value that early.
Is Tarfire good enough for this (while still having some value if drawn later) or should I look to Lightning Bolt?

Have you tried Dismember? The only way to consistently get a Winstigator thru' a blocker is to be able to remove a Tarmogoyf, I use to play Snuff Out in R/b Goblins for that very reason but considering you're playing Mono Red I don't see any other choice short of Man O' War Goblins.

[fimo]

I agree. However, I think that adding Chieftains to the deck is RAISING the mana curve, not lowering it. Since you're typically cutting 2CC goblins to fit in extra lords.

To fit in 3 chieftain I cut:
-1 skirk prospector
- the 4th gempalm incinerator
- 1 sharpshooter

I am currently playing 7 2cc + 1 stingscourger

Besides making stupid combo with krenko, I think that chieftain makes the deck more consistent. When is it that a +1/+1 pump is not relevant? Combo/aggro/control it doesn t matter because haste/pump is always relevant. I am not saying that prospector/4th gempalm/sharpshooter are bad cards but there are several MUs where they are underwhelming while chieftain is always welcome, especially against combo. It turns MWM into a powerhouse and makes all goblin topdecks a bit better. Not to speak about how it messes up with combat math when you have a vial @4.
Another good reason for playing it is the printing of deathrite shaman, for 2 reasons:
-deathrite shaman means that it is a good idea to play black again, which means more E.plague. Chieftain virtually counteracts E.plague.
-chieftain makes any goblin kill shaman

the RR casting cost of chieftain is not that problematic. That s because you can afford to play it turn 4/5/6 and cast your other goblins meanwhile, it is not like Warren instigator that either you cast it immediatelly or is a dead card. Warchief is better the seener you play it but chieftain can stay in your hand a little bit it is not a big deal. And it is not like gempalm because R can come from a cavern of souls.

[ScatmanX]

@Bichon_Blitz: I agree that Wear/Tear might be a better adittion than K.Grip. Costing just W to destroy a Plague is awesome, and they do side out counters.. Maybe my next list will be RW, just for it and RiP. 2 Lieges might do the trrick too as orcanmail suggested, and I've played them before, and they're quite good.

@Sockosensei
3 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Warren Instigator

2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki Jiki, Mirrorbreaker

2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Tarfire
3 Lightning Bolt
Side:
4 Leyline of the Void

3 Blood Moon

2 Kinesis

2 Thorn
2 CotV

1 Shooter
1 Scrapper
I can't really tell if Bolt is strictly better than Tarfire, but right now I like it more. Feel free to disagree, play neither, or play Dismember, as also suggested.

[jrw1985]

Bolt and Dismember are both pretty good options. I'm liking pryrokinesis also. It allows you to connect with a Lackey t2 on the Draw through multiple blockers. I also like that its solid against aggro decks in the format which will always make up the largest percentage of the field. And being free to cast allows you to employ your ports and wastes while also controlling the board. And it's decent against Goyf. I see Kinesis as an early game player that bridges the gap until Gempalm takes over the late game.

[ScatmanX]

Bolt and Dismember are both pretty good options. I'm liking pryrokinesis also. It allows you to connect with a Lackey t2 on the Draw through multiple blockers. I also like that its solid against aggro decks in the format which will always make up the largest percentage of the field. And being free to cast allows you to employ your ports and wastes while also controlling the board. And it's decent against Goyf. I see Kinesis as an early game player that bridges the gap until Gempalm takes over the late game.
Agreed with everytinhg. Also, Kinesis MD opens some SB space, which is great, and the main reason I'd do it.
I just don't feel confortable running it on an Instigator build with Mox due to too much card disadvantage. In any mox-less build it should be considered.

[magicmerl]

Fimo, thanks for the reply. I think that your post is very well thought out, and you make good points.


To fit in 3 chieftain I cut:
-1 skirk prospector
- the 4th gempalm incinerator
- 1 sharpshooter

I am currently playing 7 2cc + 1 stingscourger
So, assuming 3 Incinerators plus those 8, you have 11 two drops. Have you read this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=721502&viewfull=1#post721502)? What did you think of the discussion about two-drops?


Besides making stupid combo with krenko, I think that chieftain makes the deck more consistent. When is it that a +1/+1 pump is not relevant?
It's not that goblin chieftain is a bad card. It's not. It's that there is an opportunity cost to including them. I personally think that goblins that act as removal spells are really awesome, which is why I am hot on Sharpshooter, Incinerators, and SGC as well.


Combo/aggro/control it doesn t matter because haste/pump is always relevant.
Actually, vs combo I think that Chieftain is far too slow, and vs aggro I'd rather have more removal..... (as you can see, there's a bunch of people that love goblins that run Tarfire, Lightning Bolt and Dismember as additional removal...)


I am not saying that prospector/4th gempalm/sharpshooter are bad cards but there are several MUs where they are underwhelming while chieftain is always welcome, especially against combo. It turns MWM into a powerhouse and makes all goblin topdecks a bit better. Not to speak about how it messes up with combat math when you have a vial @4.
Another good reason for playing it is the printing of deathrite shaman, for 2 reasons:
-deathrite shaman means that it is a good idea to play black again, which means more E.plague. Chieftain virtually counteracts E.plague.
-chieftain makes any goblin kill shaman
Yes, I agree that Deathrite Shaman and Engineered Plague are both good reasons for it.


the RR casting cost of chieftain is not that problematic. That s because you can afford to play it turn 4/5/6 and cast your other goblins meanwhile, it is not like Warren instigator that either you cast it immediatelly or is a dead card. Warchief is better the seener you play it but chieftain can stay in your hand a little bit it is not a big deal. And it is not like gempalm because R can come from a cavern of souls.
Fair enough. I find that there is a constant tension where I'm trying to wring as much from my manabase in terms of Wasteland/Port/Karakas as I can, which means I want to be right on the edge of 'enough' red sources. I personally only run 15 red sources, which feels like not quite enough for my Warchiefs and SGCs on occasion.

[fimo]

Have you read this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=721502&viewfull=1#post721502)? What did you think of the discussion about two-drops?


Let me start with saying that the 2 most problematic/fascinating decisions to make when designing a goblin list in my opinion are:
-what to do on turn 2
-how many removal should I run

these are the major point of controversy among goblins players. They are the most meta/playerstyle dependent part of the deck and I don t think there can be only 1 better way. I completly understand why you feel like having many removals I play many removals myself from time to time. Lately I just prefer to play more threats than removals because I feel it is more consistent but that might just be a matter of playstyle. I don t think there is a right or wrong here.

GoboLord did a great job with that post. However, on the 2cc part he says: "No, there is no linear relation between the number of cmc2 spells and performance". Actually if I can give you an advice GoboLord I would consider the numbers a bit differently, maybe we get some correlations. You consider the 2cc spells to be: "a sum of: Piledriver, WInstigator, MWM, Gempalm Incinerator, Stingscourger, Tin Street Hooligan" and my guess is that you put thalia into this list right?

Instead of considering the 2cc as you defined them it might be more meaningful to split this analysis to one of these (or both):
- actual 2 drops (Piledriver, WInstigator, MWM, thalia)
- actual 2 drops + ALL removals that can be cast as early as turn 2 + manadenial/manaacelerants (Piledriver, WInstigator, MWM, Gempalm Incinerator, Stingscourger, Tin Street Hooligan, thalia, rishadan port, wasteland, tarfire, lightning bolt, dismember, chrome mox, skirk prospector). I would not count lackey and vial because it is the same in every list. As Goblins have high mana curve this number is much lower than other archetypes. However, we all know how important it is turn 2 in legacy so this number would reflect your potential to interact with the game by this turn. It would be very interesting for me to know whether it is the number of things that can be done by turn 2 that matters or which one they are.

[magicmerl]

Let me start with saying that the 2 most problematic/fascinating decisions to make when designing a goblin list in my opinion are:
-what to do on turn 2
-how many removal should I run

these are the major point of controversy among goblins players.
I agree.


GoboLord did a great job with that post. However, on the 2cc part he says: "No, there is no linear relation between the number of cmc2 spells and performance". Actually if I can give you an advice GoboLord I would consider the numbers a bit differently, maybe we get some correlations.
No, his point is that there's a correlation with winning, but it's not LINEAR.

The 'Winstigator' lists are optimised with a high win rate around 10 two drops. The conventional lists are optimised for winning at around 13-14 two drops. The 11-12 two drop decks perform significantly worse, for whatever reason. Your list is conventional (in that it doesn't run Warren Instigator and Chrome Mox), yet it runs 11 two drops. I'm suggesting that two of those Goblin Chieftains might seem like they are 'free' to include, but they really aren't.


You consider the 2cc spells to be: "a sum of: Piledriver, WInstigator, MWM, Gempalm Incinerator, Stingscourger, Tin Street Hooligan" and my guess is that you put thalia into this list right?
Yep.


Instead of considering the 2cc as you defined them it might be more meaningful to split this analysis to one of these (or both):
- actual 2 drops (Piledriver, WInstigator, MWM, thalia)
- actual 2 drops + ALL removals that can be cast as early as turn 2 + manadenial/manaacelerants (Piledriver, WInstigator, MWM, Gempalm Incinerator, Stingscourger, Tin Street Hooligan, thalia, rishadan port, wasteland, tarfire, lightning bolt, dismember, chrome mox, skirk prospector).
This is good, although I wouldn't count Prospector unless you're including it solely as a 'things that can be done on the 2nd turn' kind of thing.

The trouble is, the more discrete categories you break things down into, the smaller each individual sample size gets, until you end up with only Max Tietze's list.


I would not count lackey and vial because it is the same in every list. As Goblins have high mana curve this number is much lower than other archetypes. However, we all know how important it is turn 2 in legacy so this number would reflect your potential to interact with the game by this turn. It would be very interesting for me to know whether it is the number of things that can be done by turn 2 that matters or which one they are.
Well, I would also include TSH in the 'actual two drops' list since I am fine with just curving out with him. But can he be counted as 'removal' as well? It gets tricky.

Let's set aside the Winstigator build for the moment, and combine the two good 'conventional' lists together (thalia or not).

Gobolord listed an example Thalia build as
8 'actual' two drops (3 Thalia, 2 PD, 3 MWM) and
6 'removals' (4 Gempalm, 1 Sting, 1 TSH). Plus
6 'stuff' (4 Waste, 1 Prospector, 1 Karakas). For a total of
20 things that are in addition to the mandatory 8 Vials/Lackeys.

His example 'classic' build has
7 'actual' two drops (4 PD, 3 MWM) and
6 'removals' (4 Gempalm, 1 Sting, 1 TSH). Plus
8 'stuff' (4 Waste, 1 Prospector, 3 Port). For a total of
22 things that are in addition to the mandatory 8 Vials/Lackeys.

His 'awful' list was too all over the place (since they were), with about the only point to be made that every single Chieftain you include will require you to cut something else that will be easier to cast and have more impact on winning.

P.s. Here's his original comments on Chieftain (with 64% being the avg win pct of lists analysed, so >64% is good, and <64% is bad):

Chieftain
50 records with 0 Chieftains have a mean W% of 66%
72 records with 1 Chieftain have a mean W% of 66%
24 records with 2 Chieftains have a mean W-% of 51%
Decklists with 3 or 4 Chieftains were excluded[…]
Interpretation of results: Playing either 0 or 1 Chieftain seems to slightly improve performance. Playing 2 Chieftains had an obviously negative impact on results. However, since there are so few records of lists with 3 and 4 Chieftains we CANT conclude an easy rule like “the more Chieftains, the worse the performance”.

[FTW]

Let me start with saying that the 2 most problematic/fascinating decisions to make when designing a goblin list in my opinion are:
-what to do on turn 2
-how many removal should I run

However, we all know how important it is turn 2 in legacy so this number would reflect your potential to interact with the game by this turn. It would be very interesting for me to know whether it is the number of things that can be done by turn 2 that matters or which one they are.

Given the importance of early game interaction, how do you feel about cutting 2 things to do on turn 2 for 2 Chieftains?

-Prospector, Sharpshooter, Gempalm
+3 Chieftain

I don't know if I'd say Chieftain is "good against combo" being 3cc... but it's certainly better against combo than those cards (because they're almost dead cards). So in that sense it speeds up your combo goldfish by having more business and less chaff game 1.

But if your meta is all combo you shouldn't be playing Goblins anyway. What about your non-combo matchups? In all of those, Chieftain costs more and potentially slows down your deck and removes interactivity. Are you adding Chieftain because you think it optimizes that specific build, or because you think Chieftain in general will help matchups? If you just want Chieftain, might it be better to cut other expensive less-interactive slots like Krenkos or Warchiefs? GoboLord's analysis suggests conventional builds that tried to cram in more expensive slots (e.g. more Chieftains) tended to perform worse. This meshes with my experience, with most losses from having too many expensive cards stuck in hand in suboptimal builds.

Or if you think Chieftain would help, what about switching to the WInstigator build? Chrome Mox and WInstigator make it easier to support more 3-4 drops.

[fimo]

The 'Winstigator' lists are optimised with a high win rate around 10 two drops. The conventional lists are optimised for winning at around 13-14 two drops. The 11-12 two drop decks perform significantly worse, for whatever reason. Your list is conventional (in that it doesn't run Warren Instigator and Chrome Mox), yet it runs 11 two drops. I'm suggesting that two of those Goblin Chieftains might seem like they are 'free' to include, but they really aren't.



Ok I see what you mean, good point. However, I think that to get to that conclusion we should be a bit more careful: we remove lists that run WI from this analysis. At this point we don t have the 10 2drop bias of WI lists. We check this new sample for a correlation between the number of two drops and the win%. At this point we may be able to see a linear reletionship between the number of two drops and win%. If this is the case then it is very informative. However as I mentioned in the previous post I would consider the two drops a bit differently.




Let's set aside the Winstigator build for the moment, and combine the two good 'conventional' lists together (thalia or not).

Gobolord listed an example Thalia build as
8 'actual' two drops (3 Thalia, 2 PD, 3 MWM) and
6 'removals' (4 Gempalm, 1 Sting, 1 TSH). Plus
6 'stuff' (4 Waste, 1 Prospector, 1 Karakas). For a total of
20 things that are in addition to the mandatory 8 Vials/Lackeys.

His example 'classic' build has
7 'actual' two drops (4 PD, 3 MWM) and
6 'removals' (4 Gempalm, 1 Sting, 1 TSH). Plus
8 'stuff' (4 Waste, 1 Prospector, 3 Port). For a total of
22 things that are in addition to the mandatory 8 Vials/Lackeys.


Looking at the win percentages that GoboLord posted, it seems that the thalia build has a win% of 69.95% whereas the classic build is at 67.21%. There are 4 differences:
- thalia +/-
- 2 vr 4 PD
- 8 two drop vr 7 two drops
- 20 thigs to do by turn 2 vr 22 things to do by turn 2

The first 3 points are very much related. I put in 3 thalia removing 2 PD and thereby increasing the actually 2 drops from 7 to 8. Where does the benefit come from doing this? is it the unique effect of thalia? is the removing of PD? is having an extra actual 2 drop? Amixture of the three?

I am very surprised that the list with 20 thigs to do by turn 2 performs better that 22 things to do by turn 2. I would have guessed the opposite. Mmm.... .After reasoning more on it maybe it makes sense. I mean we want to curve out right? so it might be that if you fill your deck with too many "things to do by turn 2" you end up casting 2 drops also on turn 3 and 4 which is suboptimal. It is a complicate matter.



Given the importance of early game interaction, how do you feel about cutting 2 things to do on turn 2 for 2 Chieftains?

-Prospector, Sharpshooter, Gempalm
+3 Chieftain



I feel like if you play 7-8 drops and a number of rishadan port + some removal you rarely waste your second turn. As I said before I feel that Prospector, Sharpshooter, 4th Gempalm are rather situational. I want to minimize dead cards in my hand G1 and then sideboard specific cards G2 and G3. I want to see prospector against equipments, in other cases I prefer to see whatever else goblin. I want to see sharpsooter against elves/maverick/D&T and lingering souls otherwise I prefer to see something else. I want to see gempalm in my opening hand ONLY if I have a lackey AND a mountain otherwise I prefer to see something else, hence the 3-of. Therefore, I dont think that these cards are necessary MD unless specific meta. However I am always happy to draw a chieftain because it is always relevant and good in multiples.



But if your meta is all combo you shouldn't be playing Goblins anyway. What about your non-combo matchups? In all of those, Chieftain costs more and potentially slows down your deck and removes interactivity. Are you adding Chieftain because you think it optimizes that specific build, or because you think Chieftain in general will help matchups? If you just want Chieftain, might it be better to cut other expensive less-interactive slots like Krenkos or Warchiefs? GoboLord's analysis suggests conventional builds that tried to cram in more expensive slots (e.g. more Chieftains) tended to perform worse. This meshes with my experience, with most losses from having too many expensive cards stuck in hand in suboptimal builds.

Or if you think Chieftain would help, what about switching to the WInstigator build? Chrome Mox and WInstigator make it easier to support more 3-4 drops.


My meta is not all combo otherwise I wouldn t be all this hyped for krenko. Against aggro: +1/+1 is super relevant, against control: haste is amazing because you don t give them time to stabilize. Seriously it is not that a removal is always the best thing you can have against aggro: being aggressive yourself pays off. having access to 3 +1/+1 effects and 7 haste + 2 krenko really changes the way that aggro MUs play out. You force them to interact with you. You are the combo player here, haste+krenko is a real combo, either they interact with you or they are dead. Chieftan will be best is a build with many MWM and krenko sure. However, as long as you play gobins it fits in any lists. I just don t see good enough reasons why I shouldn t play MWM and krenko so yes it fits probably better in my build. I think it is a mistake to cut warchief in favor of chieftain. They fill different roles. I think that chieftain competes with the other flex slots: conistency vr flexibility. Too many times I drew a prospector vr miracles or a sharpshooter vr reanimator or too many Gempals in my opening that at least for G1 I prefer to have a consistent cards. I do play one singleton artifact hate in the MD, I havent decided yet whether it is a good choice.

On WI it is not my thing, it is a powerful card but it doesn t match with my playstyle.

[GoboLord]

I have just finished reading this VERY interesting discussion between magicmerl and fimo.
The point of this comment is not to agree or disagree with either one of you - in fact you both make very good points and explain your arguments well.

I just wanted to point out that I'm glad that you actually take my "reasearch" results seriously and that this kind of discussion is one of the reasons why I will keep up this work. Overall I'm very impressed by the friendly atmosphere and the high-level standard of the discussions in this threat. Keep this up guys!

The next part of my analysis will be coming soon (I think some time next week) and I will definitely do some exploration on the "things to do on Turn 2" stuff, that fimo suggested (although I agree with magicmerl that results might give a too simplistic picture of successful goblin decklists).

[magicmerl]

Looking at the win percentages that GoboLord posted, it seems that the thalia build has a win% of 69.95% whereas the classic build is at 67.21%. There are 4 differences:
- thalia +/-
- 2 vr 4 PD
- 8 two drop vr 7 two drops
- 20 thigs to do by turn 2 vr 22 things to do by turn 2

The first 3 points are very much related. I put in 3 thalia removing 2 PD and thereby increasing the actually 2 drops from 7 to 8. Where does the benefit come from doing this? is it the unique effect of thalia? is the removing of PD? is having an extra actual 2 drop? Amixture of the three?
These are questions that we don't know the answers to. I am inclined to think that it *doesn't* actually matter whether you are running Thalia vs Piledriver vs MWM, except insofar as MWM is better vs midrange decks and Thalia/PD are better vs combo, so MWM probably deserves a slot. But since PD and Thalia are both good vs combo, maybe it doesn't really matter which if we have to choose one.


I am very surprised that the list with 20 thigs to do by turn 2 performs better that 22 things to do by turn 2. I would have guessed the opposite.
The thing is, not every play is equal. I see three categories of cards:
Proactive cards: casting creatures to actively develop your own board and goldfish. Like the bevy of 2 drops
Tempo cards: Using Wasteland and Port are tempo plays that keep the board state the same. These cards are only really good if you already have a Proactive board advantage, since on a neutral board they are usually a net loss for us (given how we run more 3-4CC cards than the average legacy deck)
Reactive cards: Casting Tarfire/Lightning Bolt/Gempalm actively hinders your opponents board (IF they have a relevant target in play).

So having a proactive board development play on T2 seems like the most consistent way to get ahead of the opponent. I think that making sure you ahve enough proactive plays is more important than making sure you have enough total plays.


Mmm.... .After reasoning more on it maybe it makes sense. I mean we want to curve out right?
YES! That's what I was mumbling about above. We want to proactively develop our board.


so it might be that if you fill your deck with too many "things to do by turn 2" you end up casting 2 drops also on turn 3 and 4 which is suboptimal. It is a complicate matter.
I think that it's more that we really want to be proactive. About the only time I want to use Port on T2 is when I resolved a T1 Lackey, so I'm continuing to develop my board presence by casting 'free' goblins.


I feel like if you play 7-8 drops and a number of rishadan port + some removal you rarely waste your second turn.
Using port when you have an empty board isn't a waste. Actually, it kinda is. You wasted your turn, they lost a mana. MAYBE that makes them lose their turn. But maybe not. We are effectively timewalking the opponent into the late game, and we only really want to do that with aggro decks that don't really have a late game. Like..... Elves?


As I said before I feel that Prospector, Sharpshooter, 4th Gempalm are rather situational.
You're right, they are. Along with the 23rd land, TSH, inclusion of Chieftains, 2 drop composition and Krenko vs SGC as the 2nd fatty.


I want to minimize dead cards in my hand G1 and then sideboard specific cards G2 and G3.
Fair enough. So you don't run Stingscourger MD either then?

I personally don't have enough room in my SB to run all of the cards I want (these are the cards I want to include in my SB)
4 Rest in Peace
4 Chalice of the Storm
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Angel of Despair

My only problem is, that's 19 cards total....


I want to see prospector against equipments, in other cases I prefer to see whatever else goblin.
Do you SB Prospector?

Look, I have to say, I share your feelings on the Prospector. It looks like SUCH an underwhelming card. But from playtesting it, it overperforms for me every time.


I want to see sharpsooter against elves/maverick/D&T and lingering souls otherwise I prefer to see something else.
Isn't that a significant enough part of the metagame that it's worth running MD? How many decks do you want to see Stingscourger against?


I want to see gempalm in my opening hand ONLY if I have a lackey AND a mountain otherwise I prefer to see something else, hence the 3-of.
Confession time: I love drawing cards. I love casting Terror as a cantrip (Gempalm). I love casting Demonic Tutor and getting a 1/1 for free (matron). I love Brainstorming with Jace and getting a 2/2 haste for free (Ringleader).


Therefore, I dont think that these cards are necessary MD unless specific meta. However I am always happy to draw a chieftain because it is always relevant and good in multiples. My meta is not all combo otherwise I wouldn t be all this hyped for krenko. Against aggro: +1/+1 is super relevant, against control: haste is amazing because you don t give them time to stabilize. Seriously it is not that a removal is always the best thing you can have against aggro: being aggressive yourself pays off. having access to 3 +1/+1 effects and 7 haste + 2 krenko really changes the way that aggro MUs play out. You force them to interact with you. You are the combo player here, haste+krenko is a real combo, either they interact with you or they are dead. Chieftan will be best is a build with many MWM and krenko sure. However, as long as you play gobins it fits in any lists. I just don t see good enough reasons why I shouldn t play MWM and krenko so yes it fits probably better in my build. I think it is a mistake to cut warchief in favor of chieftain. They fill different roles. I think that chieftain competes with the other flex slots: conistency vr flexibility. Too many times I drew a prospector vr miracles or a sharpshooter vr reanimator or too many Gempals in my opening that at least for G1 I prefer to have a consistent cards. I do play one singleton artifact hate in the MD, I havent decided yet whether it is a good choice.
Sure. And back when I was running Krenko, I definitely was running chieftains as well. In testing the number of chieftains slowly fell until I cut the last one altogether.

When they came for the redundant chieftains, I said nothing. Then they came for the last chieftain, and I said nothing. Now they come for Krenko, and there is nobody left to speak up for krenko....

[fimo]

So having a proactive board development play on T2 seems like the most consistent way to get ahead of the opponent. I think that making sure you ahve enough proactive plays is more important than making sure you have enough total plays.



It can well be that. It would be awsome if we could get an answer for this question from the data that GoboLord is gonna bring up next.




You're right, they are. Along with the 23rd land, TSH, inclusion of Chieftains, 2 drop composition and Krenko vs SGC as the 2nd fatty.



I guess we have different views on how situational chieftain is, but it is fair enough if you think that.



Isn't that a significant enough part of the metagame that it's worth running MD?


Lingering souls seems gone with the shifting from esper stoneblade to deathblade. Or maybe it is just my meta but I don t see many lingering souls after the printing of deathrite shaman. Maverick is played much less now than it was 6 months ago which means less tiny creatures around. Elves are a bit on the rise but they are not a huge part of the metagame anyway. It just doesn t seem necessary to me running sharpshooter MD.




Fair enough. So you don't run Stingscourger MD either then?

.....

How many decks do you want to see Stingscourger against?


Stingscourger has a much wider application than cards like sharpshooter or prospector. Stingscurger has application against combo decks (show&tell, dredge) as well as control decks and any aggro deck. There are so few situations where it is a bad card. Against aggro it often fills the same role as MWM, bounce + blocker buys you 3 attacks. sometimes it bounces a germ token allowing you to swing for the win. Sometimes it is a chain lightning for 2 mana if you have a chieftain down. Sometimes it ruins the day of an insectile abberration. Sometimes it just wins you the game against combo. It is extremely flexible but always useful. It is useless against storm and enchantress...which is what 10% of the field maybe? hence a very well deserved 1-of. I wouldn t be surprised to see the 2-of in some builds.




Do you SB Prospector?

Look, I have to say, I share your feelings on the Prospector. It looks like SUCH an underwhelming card. But from playtesting it, it overperforms for me every time.


No I don t run prospector in the SB. Disenchant effects and pithing needle deal with the problematic equipments and have wider applications. I prefer the 23th land (rishadan port) over prospector.

[magicmerl]

Lingering souls seems gone with the shifting from esper stoneblade to deathblade. Or maybe it is just my meta but I don t see many lingering souls after the printing of deathrite shaman. Maverick is played much less now than it was 6 months ago which means less tiny creatures around. Elves are a bit on the rise but they are not a huge part of the metagame anyway. It just doesn t seem necessary to me running sharpshooter MD.
Sharpshooter is good vs any deck with little dorky dudes. Where I play I see Death and Taxes, Goblins, Merfolk and Elves. Maybe it's a Sb card, maybe it's a MD card. In my meta I'm happy with it MD. Do you run it SB?

Edit: I agree on keeping the tutor list small to make the deck consistent. My tutor package is currently Prospector, Stingscourger and Sharpshooter. Other than that, the only things I run that aren't 4-ofs are the interchangeable 2-drops (PD/MWM/Thalia). Consistency is part of why I don't run 3 Gempalms.


Stingscurger has application against combo decks
I agree with Stingscourger as an inclusion in the deck. To my mind it's the 'first among equals' of the tutor targets. I was just throwing it out there because your arguement against prospector and sharpshooter could have been applied equally to Stingscourger as well ("I want to minimize dead cards in my hand G1 and then sideboard specific cards G2 and G3.").


No I don t run prospector in the SB. Disenchant effects and pithing needle deal with the problematic equipments and have wider applications. I prefer the 23th land (rishadan port) over prospector.
Yeah, and I think this comes down to different preferences, playstyles and metagame. p.s. What is your current list?

[jrw1985]

magicmerl and I were going on a bit in the mtgsalvation forum about whether there will be a spoiled Goblin with UW hate. So far they've spoiled 3 3-drops and 1 2-drop (mostly) tribal creatures with enemy-color hate built-in. I'm pretty sure they're just going to give us a mediocre 3-drop. So far the white Human Knight sucks, the blue Merfolk Wizard is possibly sideboardable, the black Zombie Warrior is pretty unexciting, and green got a Wolf instead of an Elf...

So a RR Goblin is a real possibility but not a certainty.

[from Cairo]

magicmerl and I were going on a bit in the mtgsalvation forum about whether there will be a spoiled Goblin with UW hate. So far they've spoiled 3 3-drops and 1 2-drop (mostly) tribal creatures with enemy-color hate built-in. I'm pretty sure they're just going to give us a mediocre 3-drop. So far the white Human Knight sucks, the blue Merfolk Wizard is possibly sideboardable, the black Zombie Warrior is pretty unexciting, and green got a Wolf instead of an Elf...

So a RR Goblin is a real possibility but not a certainty.

So they've spoiled a "can't be targeted by spells/abilities of colors x & y", "keep a creature of color x or y tapped", "if color x or y spell is cast in your turn +1/+1 counter", and "exile a creature card from hand of color x or y"...

Any thoughts on what element of flavor the Red one might get? I was thinking of what would be on the wishlist as far as comes into play abilities.

I think I would like to see a 2/1 or 2/2 with "When ~ enters the battlefield deal damage equal to it's power to each Blue and White creature." Blast SFM, SCM, Geist, and White Weenie stuff.

[jrw1985]

So they've spoiled a "can't be targeted by spells/abilities of colors x & y", "keep a creature of color x or y tapped", "if color x or y spell is cast in your turn +1/+1 counter", and "exile a creature card from hand of color x or y"...

Any thoughts on what element of flavor the Red one might get? I was thinking of what would be on the wishlist as far as comes into play abilities.

I think I would like to see a 2/1 or 2/2 with "When ~ enters the battlefield deal damage equal to it's power to each Blue and White creature." Blast SFM, SCM, Geist, and White Weenie stuff.

Well so far we have 2 comes-into-play abilities, 1 whenever-your-opponent-does-this ability, and 1 quasi-protection ability. So the door is wide open. But the ability you listed seems unlikely. Asymmetric board sweepers are few and far between in this game.

I'm just hoping they save the best for last.

Although we're not even sure its a Goblin (Green got a Wolf, for fuck's sake).
But it will definitely hate on UW, and if it costs 3 it will have 2+ abilities. If it costs 2 it will probably only have 1 ability. So no Piledriver reprint. :(

All the other abilities are flavor-specific to their color though, so that should narrow it down. White got first strike and lifelink, so those are out, as are hexproof (G) and intimidate (B). What's left for red that's on-color? Red often has Haste, double strike, fire-breathing, none of which are especially valuable in eternal formats. And the enemy-color hate is also pretty color specific. White has quasi-protection. Blue taps. Green gets counters. Black discards, sorta. So burn is a possibility. Land and Artifact destruction are out, since they aren't color-specific.

[FTW]

Interesting discussion guys.

For me the most pertinent question is "how situational is Chieftain?". I find it very situational, but this depends on the build. Chieftain was MVP in my mono-red list with Instigators and 2 Stingscourger and Krenko. The question I am curious about is "is Chieftain that good in the Thalia builds?"

If you read between the lines of Gobolord's analysis of 2-drops and the archetypes, Chieftain worked very well in the WInstigator lists (10 2 drops). But the successful non-Instigator lists (Thalia and traditional) both ran basically no chieftains and more 2 drops (13 or 14). The Thalia and traditional lists that tried to include Chieftains fell into the 11 and 12 2-drop category, and those lists all underperformed. So, to me, it looks like the data suggests Chieftain underperforms in those lists.

I would be interested to see an analysis of the number of chieftains by deck type (WInstigator, Thalia, traditional, and tomato sauce). Doing an analysis just on number of chieftains wouldn't show a trend since the WInstigator lists do very well with several chieftains and the Thalia lists do very well without chieftains, but I'm more curious how each of the types fares if the number of chieftains changes. Could such an analysis be done? My intuition is that the Thalia lists are better without Chieftains and with more "2 drops". My intuition is that the WInstigator lists are more able to support them since they have more proactive ways to accelerate out the increased number of 3-4 drops (Instigator + Mox) and are also more able to abuse them to get value out (since WInstigator + Chieftain interaction is quite nice). But that's just a guess. I'm curious what the data says.

I don't know if there is enough data available for this, but I'd also be curious to see an analysis of how Chieftain performs stratified by matchup type (aggro, combo, control, tempo..) to see if the lists with Chieftain perform better only against certain deck types or in general.

[fimo]

Yeah, and I think this comes down to different preferences, playstyles and metagame. p.s. What is your current list?


I am playing:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 vial

4 thalia
3 Mogg War Marshal

1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief

4 Goblin Ringleader
2 krenko
1 tuktuk scrapper

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
3 Mountain
1 karakas
2 plateau
5 red fetches


//Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
2 angel of despair
1 Stingscourger

1 grafdigger s cage
1 relic of progenitus
2 rest in peace

1 Pithing Needle
1 pyrokinesis
2 wear//tear

I am back and forth on the thalia/MWM split but for now I am happy on this. I decided of thalia over piledriver because I sided him out nearly every game and I think she is better in so many ways, she is useless only aginst tribal which is just a very tiny portion of my metagame. What I like about her is that even though I side her out in G2 to give space to more specific hate that doesn t mean that she was useless G1 she always impact the game in a way or another. I am very happy of these 2 drops because they maximize my 2 lines of play:
- thalia along 4 waste and 4 port maximize mana denial
- MWM gives 2 goblin on the battlefield to maximize the effect of chieftain, krenko and gempalm.

Running thalia is another reason why I run only 3 gempalms. I aim at casting gempalm on average from turn 4 on. I want to cast first my 1-2-3 drops. Then when me and the opponent have casted our hand I will gempalm his best guy. I dont like to cast gempalm before I casted my 3 drop and have established a solid board position (except enabling lackey to connect, sure). I prefer not to have a removal for a tarmogoyf rather than not having enough board presence.

[jrw1985]

How about this as a potential goblin to complete the enemy-hate cycle in M14?

Goblin Stud
RR
Haste, Battlecry
Goblins Stud cannot be blocked by U or W creatures.
2/2

It's a pipe dream, but haste and Battlecry are both Red abilities. It's not too crazy to wish for something along those lines. That card would actually be super playable, and it would allow a T1 Lackey to attack into DRS or SFM.

[FTW]

How about this as a potential goblin to complete the enemy-hate cycle in M14?

Goblin Stud
RR
Haste, Battlecry
Goblins Stud cannot be blocked by U or W creatures.
2/2

It's a pipe dream, but haste and Battlecry are both Red abilities. It's not too crazy to wish for something along those lines. That card would actually be super playable, and it would allow a T1 Lackey to attack into DRS or SFM.

I really doubt they'd print us another Piledriver (+1 for each other creature instead of +2, can't be block by Merfolks) that had an extra power AND haste AND couldn't be blocked by Thalia/Mom/SFM/etc.

Goblin Thug
1RR
Haste
Whenever a blue or white creature blocks ~, ~ gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
2/2

[Dice_Box]

Goblin stud sounds like an Unhinged card. Also think this is the core set. Your not going to have completed abilities or keywords not on other cards.

[GoboLord]

I want to know what people have to say about THIS one
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143494&d=1372652332

Playable or too cute?

A list of cards with triggered abilities in Vial Goblins:

AEther Vial
Goblin Lackey
Warren Instigator
Goblin Piledriver
Mogg War Marshal
Goblin Matron
Goblin Ringleader
Siege-Gang Commander
Gempalm Incinerator
Stingscourger


This card has more synergies with the deck than any other Goblin I know. It's a shame that activating the ability costs 2 and not 1 colorless mana.
Thoughts?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Playable or too cute?
Without having done any testing, it looks too cute. It appears bad in Goblins for the exact same reason Umezawa's Jitte is bad in Goblins. It is a 2 mana non-goblin that requires :2: to use and is reliant on having another body (specifically one on the list you provided) on the field.

[Bichon_Blitz]

Looks like an EDH/commander card. 2 to activate is too much, but if you vial in ringleader/matron and have two up, that'd be nutty. On that note, has anyone tried the restoration angel build?

[magicmerl]

Any thoughts on what element of flavor the Red one might get? I was thinking of what would be on the wishlist as far as comes into play abilities.

I think I would like to see a 2/1 or 2/2 with "When ~ enters the battlefield deal damage equal to it's power to each Blue and White creature." Blast SFM, SCM, Geist, and White Weenie stuff.
I think that's way OP. It might be TARGET U/W creature, but not EACH one.

[LeoCop 90]

About Strionic Resonator: when i saw it on the spoilers i immediately thought about all the ETB triggers of our beloved goblins... it may do crazy things in our deck, but overall it costs too much mana and is another card that does nothing (we already play aether vial,can we afford to go turn 1 vial turn 2 strionic resonator? the answer is no).

So in my opinion it's just a too cute card, for goblins but also for legacy in general. Despite this i'm sure someone will try to build decks around it.

[jrw1985]

I hear there's a Goblins deck in the Top 8 at SCG Worcester. Best of luck!

[magicmerl]

Without having done any testing, it looks too cute. It appears bad in Goblins for the exact same reason Umezawa's Jitte is bad in Goblins. It is a 2 mana non-goblin that requires :2: to use and is reliant on having another body (specifically one on the list you provided) on the field.

I think that's a good analogy, and I agree. It just seems worse than jitte for us.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Mogg War Marshal
Goblin Matron
Goblin Ringleader
Siege-Gang Commander
Gempalm Incinerator
Stingscourger

all rely on the card just being played, no if you are playing them via Aether Vial, or Lackey/Instigator then the two mana to activate Resonator would be there, but I feel its just too cute, and slows down a deck that really doesn't need to be sped up.

is worth testing though.

[Dice_Box]

Strionic Resonator: A Kiki Jiki without legs.

[LeoCop 90]

Goblins just lost in the first game of top8 against canadian (2-0). He played a pretty standard list with 1 taiga and 1 plateau for tin street hooligan (1 main 1 side) , 2 krosan grip in side and 4 thalias in side.

The only curios card is a Iona,Shield of Emeria in sideboard alongside an angel of despair. I guess they both are for the show and tell matchup.

[Dice_Box]

Iona I think is a great SnT card. I might give it a go.

[jrw1985]

Iona I think is a great SnT card. I might give it a go.

Yeah, I can't condone running 2 SB cards (Iona and Angel) that literally only answer 1 card (SnT). Not one deck, or one archetype, but 1 card. That's a waste of SB slots, especially when you've already got access to Stingscourger for creatures and KGrip for Omniscience. I'd suggest running Blood Moon or more GY hate.

[Dice_Box]

Oh shit, I was thinking about crossing decks and had elves in mind too. As I do not have Angel, I was thinking Iona alone in the sideboard.

[FTW]

Playable or too cute?
Thoughts?

Too cute. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is a card....

It lets you get any ETB trigger at instant speed instead of just when the creature itself enters. Sure, copying Piledriver or Lackey/WInstigator is slightly different than copying the trigger on one of them but the net effect is still 2 triggers, very similar outcome, and having 2 copies attacking is usually much better than having one attacking that triggers twice. I would much rather attack with double Piledriver or double WInstigator than a single one on 'roids.

I suppose Kiki can't speed up Vial counters or double Gempalm damage, but that's kind of splitting hairs. If you're paying 3R to kill a creature with this deck, you're doing it wrong.

EDIT: Ninja's by Dicebox. Whoops.

[magicmerl]

Sadness. The 'hoser' is an Elemental:

Mindsparker
Cost - 1RR
Creature - Elemental
First strike
Whenever an opponent casts a white or blue instant or sorcery spell, Mindsparker deals 2 damage to that player.
3/2

[jrw1985]

Sadness. The 'hoser' is an Elemental:

Mindsparker
Cost - 1RR
Creature - Elemental
First strike
Whenever an opponent casts a white or blue instant or sorcery spell, Mindsparker deals 2 damage to that player.
3/2

Fuck this shit.

[FTW]

Fuck this shit.

You expected a Legacy playable in a core set after they gave us a 3cc Nimble Mongoose+Mold Adder chaff?

Right after a set where 35% of each booster were Cluestones??

[Bichon_Blitz]

Fuck this shit.

Kinda glad it's not a gob, cause then people would come on here and try to argue that card is playable.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Sadness. The 'hoser' is an Elemental:

Mindsparker
Cost - 1RR
Creature - Elemental
First strike
Whenever an opponent casts a white or blue instant or sorcery spell, Mindsparker deals 2 damage to that player.
3/2

So its a Pyrostatic Pillar in matchups we can already handle, great. It is also quite funny against Miracles.

[(nameless one)]

Goblin Diplomats seems like a great sideboard novelty piece.

I'd board it in against decks that are considered as bad matchups. I mean look at the art. If I was facing something stupid, I'd just flop this dude on turn two and hope that ass spanking goblin distracts your opponent enough for you to steal the win.

[magicmerl]

Kinda glad it's not a gob, cause then people would come on here and try to argue that card is playable.
Yeah, even if he was a goblin I doubt if he'd see much play.

[Bichon_Blitz]

Goblin Diplomats seems like a great sideboard novelty piece.

I'd board it in against decks that are considered as bad matchups. I mean look at the art. If I was facing something stupid, I'd just flop this dude on turn two and hope that ass spanking goblin distracts your opponent enough for you to steal the win.

Hands down, best goblin art. Best flavor text goes to goblin guide.

[Dice_Box]

Best flavour goes to Skirk Drill Sergeant.

Anyway all the cards in that enemy set where cool but not really legacy playable. I mean the blue one is cool, but what blue deck has space for him? In all we got no less shafted than everyone else.... If you look over the past few shafting each set has given us.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Hello again everyone, So I was wondering if I could get some collective help instead of fumbling myself over numbers in SB. It is a smaller weekly tournament with a meta that includes the following decks:

A RUG Delver
A Dark Maverick (w/ Engineered Plague, Stoneforge)
A Shardless BUG (w/ Engineered Plague, Engineered Explosives)
A BUG Control (BUG Walkers, Mike Kletz Build w/ Engineered Plague, Pernicious Deed)
A Aggro Loam (Jeff Hooglands Build, Punishing Fire, Devastating Dreams)
A Oops all Spells
A Mono Blue Show and Tell (I have not actually seen him play yet, not sure on specifics)

B Merfolk
B Punishing Jund (w/ Engineered Plague)
B Esper Stoneblade (w/ Stoneforge, Lingering Souls)
B Lands
B TES
B Hypergenesis
B Elves
B Enchantress
B [Gamekeeper / Cabal Therapy / Emrakul / Thoughtsieze / Deathrite / Abrupt Decay].deck

Ridiculously diverse for a 8-16 man weekly tournament. "A" decks show up every time where as "B" decks don't show up as consistently.

My mainboard is as follows:
//Lands (23)
3 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

//Core [26]
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan


And then there is the sideboard, currently I have the following.
//Sideboard
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Confusion in the Ranks
2 Wear / Tear
2 Boartusk Liege

Is this sideboard too thin? Would it be wiser to try less colors in defense of the several heavy Wasteland / Loam decks? I can also put together the Instigator list if people think its better against this meta, but so far I've liked Max Tietze old school style, the deck feels good.

Typo Corrections.

[GoboLord]

A RUG Delver
A Dark Maverick (w/ Engineered Plague, Stoneforge)
A Shardless BUG (w/ Engineered Plague, Engineered Explosives)
A BUG Control (BUG Walkers, Mike Kletz Build w/ Engineered Plague, Pernicious Deed)
A Aggro Loam (Jeff Hooglands Build, Punishing Fire, Devastating Dreams)
A Oops all Spells
A Mono Blue Show and Tell (I have not actually see him play yet, not sure on specifics)

B Merfolk
B Punishing Jund (w/ Engineered Plague)
B Esper Stoneblade (w/ Stoneforge, Lingering Souls)
B Lands
B TES
B Hypergenesis
B Elves
B Enchantress
B [Gamekeeper / Cabal Therapy / Emrakul / Thoughtsieze / Deathrite / Abrupt Decay].deck


Your MD looks very good. Since I don't have time to explain myself in detail I will just propose a SB of which I'm 95% that this the best you can run against your metagame. I sorted the SB in order of importance, in case that might help you.

4 Leyline of the Void
3-4 Boartusk Liege
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (depending on whether or not you decide to play Boartusk Liege #4)

An additional advice would be to stay MonoR to make your opponents Manadenial AND Deathrite Shaman as bad as possible.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Your MD looks very good. Since I don't have time to explain myself in detail I will just propose a SB of which I'm 95% that this the best you can run against your metagame. I sorted the SB in order of importance, in case that might help you.

4 Leyline of the Void
3-4 Boartusk Liege
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (depending on whether or not you decide to play Boartusk Liege #4)

An additional advice would be to stay MonoR to make your opponents Manadenial AND Deathrite Shaman as bad as possible.

I've actually come to the conclusion of using Leyline on my own about 4 days ago and for some reason had dismissed it. Looking at the decks again, duh. Many are graveyard dependent, some arguably reliant. Leyline is "Proactive" allowing me to hit, Relic is "Reactive", meaning I spend precious tempo doing it. I like playing Questions over playing Answers.
I love Chalice of the Void and more reasons to play it will be accepted.
Is that really all I should do, just use the big Boartusks to handle Engineered Plagues, dodging Abrupt Decay in the process? It seems.. too easy.

I'll have a report by the end of today or at some point tomorrow using these changes.

[Sir_tokealot]

I hear there's a Goblins deck in the Top 8 at SCG Worcester. Best of luck!


thank you very much jrw1985 appreciate it alot. tried my best against rug delver and just could not get there. game 1 at 1 point i casted a warchief that got dazed, i was attempting to set up skirk prospector and sharpshooter for next turn, (he had 3 tarmogoyf's on board i had about 3-5 1/1's). maybe i could have just casted skirk prospector and goblin piledriver, then sacced a 1/1 to pay for the daze. but then i was going to have to rip something rediculous. unfortunately my game 1 mulligan to 6 was a 1 lander, with 2 goblin lackeys, 2 mogg war marshals and a tin street hooligan. not strong enough but not awful enough to go to 5.

game 2 i stabilize (sort of) and end up vialing in ringleader to reveal just a lonely ringleader. next turn i do it again and get a lonely warchief. the first ringleader flipped 2 relic of progenitus that i needed to draw very badly, (getting beat down by 2 3/3 mongoose).

i decided to play iona because show and tell onniscience is the best show and tell deck. and the most played in the metagame over here. i only had 1 and couldnt cut the 2nd angel so i just rolled with it. also the only way omni-halls can beat iona off show and tell is to preemptively cunning wish for slaughter pact which i knew they would not do.

usually when your omni-halls opponent has to try to win with dream halls you can wasteland and port lock them down long enough to win on turn 3 or 4.

if anyone got to see any of my games on scg live (unfortunately i was 0-4 on the camera because i won game 1 against bryant cook but they did not switch the live feed to our side until after game 1 when i was about to die mid combo.) please post a link to it. i keep trying to view it from the coverage archive on starcitygames.com but it just doesnt work. the video doesnt start and theres a bunch of links to gp miami matches and other stuff.

[magicmerl]

Your MD looks very good. Since I don't have time to explain myself in detail I will just propose a SB of which I'm 95% that this the best you can run against your metagame. I sorted the SB in order of importance, in case that might help you.

4 Leyline of the Void
3-4 Boartusk Liege
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (depending on whether or not you decide to play Boartusk Liege #4)

An additional advice would be to stay MonoR to make your opponents Manadenial AND Deathrite Shaman as bad as possible.
Yeah, I was thinking 'that's a lot of Engineered Plagues'. Maybe even MD one of the Boartusk Lieges..... I think that 1-2 of them could easily be Wear/Tear instead, since you won't really want to be Mono-4 drops, and with Matron to tutor for them, there's not a MASSIVE difference between 6-8 functional copies of Lieges.

I think that Rest in Peace/Relic of Progenitus are superior to Leyline of the Void, since you can actually cast copies you draw, and it nerfs Deathrite Shaman (which can still use your GY for acceleration).

And I think that the TukTuk is redundant given the MS presence of TSH. I'd shoot for a random Wear/Tear here as cheaper removal that can do work.

So I'd suggest this SB:
4 GY Hate (RIP/Relic)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Boartusk Liege
2 Wear//Tear

[GoboLord]

usually when your omni-halls opponent has to try to win with dream halls you can wasteland and port lock them down long enough to win on turn 3 or 4.


I wonder how you can win on turn 3-4 and still lock somebody down "long enough".


Yeah, I was thinking 'that's a lot of Engineered Plagues'. Maybe even MD one of the Boartusk Lieges..... I think that 1-2 of them could easily be Wear/Tear instead, since you won't really want to be Mono-4 drops, and with Matron to tutor for them, there's not a MASSIVE difference between 6-8 functional copies of Lieges.

I think that Rest in Peace/Relic of Progenitus are superior to Leyline of the Void, since you can actually cast copies you draw, and it nerfs Deathrite Shaman (which can still use your GY for acceleration).

And I think that the TukTuk is redundant given the MS presence of TSH. I'd shoot for a random Wear/Tear here as cheaper removal that can do work.


Well, if "All Spells", Aggro Loam, Lands and several deck featuring PunishingGrove are a core part of the metagame I'd just pick the "I don't care" card here (which is Leyline). Plus, both Leyline and Boartusk Liege are immune to Decay, which is a huge plus in a field that is flooded by BGx.dec.
Of course Tuktuk Scrapper is redundant when he sticks to TSH (should have pointed that one out more clearly). I was reffering to a MonoR approach there.

[Sir_tokealot]

I wonder how you can win on turn 3-4 and still lock somebody down "long enough".

step 1 win the die roll (clutch)

turn 1 lackey -------> turn 1 cantrip
turn 2 swing, drop siege gang, cast piledriver ------->turn 2 more cantrips
turn 3 swing big, assuming you dont have the kill keep up port mana. --------->turn 3 oops i cant cast show n tell without a sol land. if they are on omni halls plan then gg.

that is how its done. i dont think porting on turn 2 is better than dropping a piledriver. it is probably better than dropping mogg war marshal though. granted there are a ton of variables. im pretty sure they cant beat you before their 3rd turn if you have iona in hand.

[magicmerl]

step 1 win the die roll (clutch)

turn 1 lackey -------> turn 1 cantrip
turn 2 swing, drop siege gang, cast piledriver ------->turn 2 more cantrips
turn 3 swing big, assuming you dont have the kill keep up port mana. --------->turn 3 oops i cant cast show n tell without a sol land. if they are on omni halls plan then gg.

that is how its done. i dont think porting on turn 2 is better than dropping a piledriver. it is probably better than dropping mogg war marshal though. granted there are a ton of variables. im pretty sure they cant beat you before their 3rd turn if you have iona in hand.

Here's mine:

turn 1 lackey -------> turn 1 cantrip
turn 2 swing, drop basically any goblin, let's say, a Warchief, cast Thalia ------->turn 2 ONE more cantrip
turn 3 Piledriver, swing big, --------->turn 3 (you Wasteland/Port in their upkeep) ONE more cantrip

That disrupts the opponent a whole butt-load more than your 'nut draw'. It also works quite nicely with Vial instead of Lackey.

[Sir_tokealot]

Here's mine:

turn 1 lackey -------> turn 1 cantrip
turn 2 swing, drop basically any goblin, let's say, a Warchief, cast Thalia ------->turn 2 ONE more cantrip
turn 3 Piledriver, swing big, --------->turn 3 (you Wasteland/Port in their upkeep) ONE more cantrip

That disrupts the opponent a whole butt-load more than your 'nut draw'. It also works quite nicely with Vial instead of Lackey.

thats basically exactly what i said. except i did a game 1 scenario. no shit thalia is the best possible thing to cast turn 2. as long as she is uncounterable. if they force your thalia she is useless and you will likely die. putting her into play off show and tell is uncounterable. while it is good to disrupt their cantrip phase i think tapping out for a piledriver if it will accelerate the clock a turn is a better play. unless they can possibly untap and cast dream halls. then just jam the thalia and hope for the best.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I ended up going 2-1 with 8 players showing up, (see post number #5948 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=735981&viewfull=1#post735981) above).

Round 1 - Maverick'ish piloted by TJ
My opponent was trying some new stuff. What if felt like was a BGW Vial deck with swords and.. stuff. It also did not have Dark Confidants.
Game 1, I kept a fine opening hand that included a Lackey. He Vial'd, I Lackey'd, He ticked Vial and cast Thalia, I Gempalm'd, Hit him and Tuktuk Scrapper'd his Vial. The tempo I gained was too great and I knocked him over shortly.
I boarded out Prospector, Piledriver, Piledriver.
I boarded in 3 Pyrokinesis. In retrospect I also should have brought in at least 1 Boartusk Liege, I've seen Engineered Plague in his other brews before.
Game 2, My opening this time was slower. Even though I was able to Pyrokinesis his turn 1 Noble Hierarch and turn 2 Tiny Goyf the game eventually went to a grind with some Goyfs and a Thalia in the way. The game progressed like so: Gempalm into Ringleader. Ringleader hits Ringleader, Ringleader hits Ringleader, Ringleader hits Gempalm-- Oh I can swing lethal now. GG.
After the game he shows me his FOUR boarded in Engineered Plagues. He never found them, even with a Sylvan Library and Fetching multiple times. I got really lucky game 2 it seems.

Round 2 - RUG Delver piloted by Nick
Game 1, I kept an amazing opener of Lackey, Lackey, Aether Vial, Cavern of Souls, Rishadan Port, Piledriver, Ringleader. I obviously ripped a mountain off the top two turns in a row and though my Lackey's did not connect I easily won this first game.
I boarded out Prospector, Piledriver, Sharpshooter, Scrapper.
I boarded in 4 Chalice of the Void
Game 2, Mulled to 5 keeping a 1 lander with "The team." Mountain, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Ringleader. I am apparently very lucky and he never new I was short on mana as I top decked lands. Unfortunately he stifled 3 Gempalms and a Stingscourger attempting to kill / bounce his delver. Guess he is also lucky.
Game 3, Lackey connected due to Stingscourger bouncing Delver into Siege-Gang Commander. This is why I play Goblins. *Breaths deeply and sighs* That feeling.

Round 3 - Aggro Loam piloted by Jeff
Game 1, Opener of 3 Basics, Aether Vial, Mogg War Marshal, Ringleader, Siege Gang. I kept based on the Vial and basics. Turn 2 he Abrupt Decays my Vial. Turn 3 he Devastating Dreams for 3 leaving me with my marshal's token. I hit him for 3 turns until he finds Punishing Fire, and then a Knight of Reliquary, and then I lost.
I boarded out Prospector, Stingscourger, Sharpshooter, Scrapper
I boarded in 4 Leyline of the Void.
Game 2, Mulled to a 2 Leyline, Wasteland, Rishadan, Mogg War Marshal hand. After thinking really hard I kept. If I went one more I figured I'd be out the Leylines and probably not up anything as Double Leyline is already like a Mulligan. As the game progressed I never found a red source, ever. I die shortly after he Burning Wishes for his Reverent Silence.

What I gained from this:
I knew Leyline without Pressure is basically doing nothing, but I am still unsure on that keep, Opinions?
I often finding myself boarding out the Sharpshooter.
If I prepare for E Plague, I will clearly not play against it, and if I do my opponent will be unable to use it.
I appreciate Basic Lands.

[Asgar]

4-1 in my local Tournament.
Rw List with 3 Thalia, 3Piledriver, 2MWM 0 Chieftain, 3 Gempalm, 2 Tarfire, 1 Stingscourger, 1/1 split krenko - Siege Gang, no prospector, no sharpshooter.
23 Lands, 4 cavern, 4 waste, 3 Port, 1 Karakas 2 Plateau

SB:
3 Thorn of Amerhyst
2Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progrnitus
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sharpshooter
1 Boartusk Liege

Lost the 1st Match against punishing Lands (-3% matchup anyone?^^)
Then Won against UWR Delver, Boros Burn (Chalice ftw!^^), Tin-Fins (Thorn+Thalia did their work) and shardless Bug.

Round 1: 0:2
Round 2: 2:0
Round 3: 2:0
Round 4: 2:1
Round 5: 2:0

[GoboLord]

scenario

So, essentially "long enough" means "for one turn". And winning on Turn 3 AND using manadenial is still not possible.

@ Asgar:
Can you edit your posting and add the exact results of the matches you played?

Something like this:

Round 1: 2-0
Round 2: 1-2
Round X: ...

[jrw1985]

thats basically exactly what i said. except i did a game 1 scenario. no shit thalia is the best possible thing to cast turn 2. as long as she is uncounterable. if they force your thalia she is useless and you will likely die. putting her into play off show and tell is uncounterable. while it is good to disrupt their cantrip phase i think tapping out for a piledriver if it will accelerate the clock a turn is a better play. unless they can possibly untap and cast dream halls. then just jam the thalia and hope for the best.

Question for you:

Have you been playing Goblins for a while or was the deck choice a metagame decision? It seems that people who do well at big tournaments with Goblins tend to play the deck A Lot. So I'm curious.

[Sir_tokealot]

Question for you:

Have you been playing Goblins for a while or was the deck choice a metagame decision? It seems that people who do well at big tournaments with Goblins tend to play the deck A Lot. So I'm curious.

goblins was my original legacy deck. also played it as a kid casually. it is my favorite deck to play in legacy. it is very fair but with tight play and a little luck on your side it can be overwhelmingly powerful especially against other fair decks. ive been playing 3+ weekly legacy tournaments in paper magic since mental misstep was banned. i dont think i know anyone who would pick up goblins as a metagame decisions. seems very difficult and doesnt have that overpowered feel to it that alot of people look for.

[Sir_tokealot]

So, essentially "long enough" means "for one turn". And winning on Turn 3 AND using manadenial is still not possible.

Turn 1 on the play.

cavern of souls -> lackey, omni halls opponent drops island and casts ponder. ships back turn.

turn 2

lackey swings to 19 drop warchief, play rishadan port. omni halls player is ported on upkeep, possibly casts brainstorm in response. drop another island/fetchland casts a cantrip and ships back.

turn 3

play a mountain (you have a rishadan port and cavern/red source at this point) cast matron for skirk prospector, sac matron for mogg war marshal, sac the war marshal for piledriver and swing for 17 putting them to 2, if they used 2 fetches or an ancient tomb or gitaxian probe they are dead. if not then at this point you should have one card left in hand if you were on the play, or 2 in hand if you were on the draw. so tin-street hooligan, mogg war marshal, another piledriver all guaranteed if they are at more than 18 life.

theres is more than 1 way to win on turn 3 than lackey into siege-gang, piledriver. warchief. look at the scenario i just came up with. it even ports them on turn 2!.

p.s. i told you so. the power of this deck can be incredible. skirk prospector should be in every single maindeck, as well as 4 piledriver, warchief, matron. if you like a chieftain i totally understand cus engineered plague sucks.

[magicmerl]

I ended up going 2-1 with 8 players showing up, (see post number #5948 above).
If you provide a link like this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=735981&viewfull=1#post735981) it would make it easier for people to join the dots.


Round 1 - Maverick'ish piloted by TJ
Yep, I agree with bringing in Boartusk Liege as well for the 4th PD.


Round 2 - RUG Delver piloted by Nick
How do you feel about bringing in GY hate as well? Much of their deck is nerfed if they lose their GY.


Round 3 - Aggro Loam piloted by Jeff
I would have kept that Game 2 hand given your deck composition. It was rough and didn't work out for you, but them's the breaks. The actual problem was not enough coloured mana. I find that I have hands like that myself every so often. Making me want fewer ports in my list. Is that something you have considered?


I often finding myself boarding out the Sharpshooter.
Yeah, I think that you can easily MD or SB it, the same as TukTuk or TSH. I STRONGLY feel you should keep it in your 75 however.


If I prepare for E Plague, I will clearly not play against it, and if I do my opponent will be unable to use it.
Well, that says that you should only devote 1-2 SB slots to Boartusk Liege then, no?


I appreciate Basic Lands.
Heh. All 3? Or is 2 enough?

p.s. Here's my current list:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
2 Plateau
1 Taiga

4 Aether Vial
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Rest in Peace
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Krosan Grip

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I have considered cutting Ports but I feel, so far, that they have helped me more than they have hurt me.

Normally I just bring in 3 Relics against RUG Delver and no chalices. I found that when I lose to Delver it's because a ground creature (Goyf or Goose) stops me from hitting them while I die to a delver and Stifles against my Gempalms. I actually sat there and thought for a long time before choosing Chalice over Leyline. I feel that a reasonable hand is more important than their graveyard in the match up. Leyline mulligans don't help the hand and in this build I can't cast it later. More lenient grave hate like Relic or Rest in Peace would be my top pick against them.

My meta still had 4 E Plague people there. I only played against one of them by chance in an 8 man, and he happened to never see them. Even though I was prepared for it I still got lucky to not see one, that card is rough.

As for basics I can't see playing less than 3 in my deck. 3 un-wasteable lands lets me drop my fourth and use it before it can get wasted in drawn out games to cast ringleaders. I prefer 4 if I can manage it.

[GoboLord]

Turn 1 on the play.

cavern of souls -> lackey, omni halls opponent drops island and casts ponder. ships back turn.

turn 2

lackey swings to 19 drop warchief, play rishadan port. omni halls player is ported on upkeep, possibly casts brainstorm in response. drop another island/fetchland casts a cantrip and ships back.

turn 3

play a mountain (you have a rishadan port and cavern/red source at this point) cast matron for skirk prospector, sac matron for mogg war marshal, sac the war marshal for piledriver and swing for 17 putting them to 2, if they used 2 fetches or an ancient tomb or gitaxian probe they are dead. if not then at this point you should have one card left in hand if you were on the play, or 2 in hand if you were on the draw. so tin-street hooligan, mogg war marshal, another piledriver all guaranteed if they are at more than 18 life.

theres is more than 1 way to win on turn 3 than lackey into siege-gang, piledriver. warchief. look at the scenario i just came up with. it even ports them on turn 2!.

p.s. i told you so. the power of this deck can be incredible. skirk prospector should be in every single maindeck, as well as 4 piledriver, warchief, matron. if you like a chieftain i totally understand cus engineered plague sucks.

I know one or two things about the deck myself and the point of this discussion was not to put the power of the deck into question. The point of this exercise was to say that you need to be realistic.

(1) If you port him on Turn 2 and deal 17 dmg on turn 3, then he has just another turn to cast Show and Tell (since you are tapped out and he can either use 3 basic island or 1 Island and 1 City of Traitors to do so.
(2) In you last scenario it would be WAY more reasonable to use Matron to fetch a Stingscourger instead of SKirk Prospecter, bc that means your opponent won't win with S&T --> creature.
(3) Your scenario still doesn't kill on Turn 3 unless very specific conditions are met.

I agree with the basic idea though, that Ports help a lot to put S&T decks in an unfavorable position so that you can either assemble an early kill (Turn 4 or 5) or draw your SB cards (additional Stingscourger, COnfusion in the Ranks, Angel of Despair, Cabal Therapy, Pyroblast).

[Sockosensei]

I played Jrw's mono red list (74 of the 75 cards) from p. 291 to a 2-1 finish at my local shop.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Piledriver
4 MWM
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Gempalm
4 Ringleader
2 SGC
1 Krenko
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger

10 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Waste
4 Port

SB
4 Leyline-o-the-Void
4 Chalice-o-the-Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Chieftain
2 Blood Moon




Rd 1: 0-2 vs Mono-green Beast Stompy
Rd 2: Bye.
Rd 3: 2-1 vs Sneak & Show

It's not the most informative result, but I know that GoboLord likes to have all the stats for the database.



Rd 3 vs S&S:
g1: On the draw, 2x Piledriver get there with Port and Wasteland doing incredible work.

Out: 3 Gempalm, 2 Pyrokinesis
In: 4 Chalice, 1 Chieftain

g2: It's very very close thanks to Stingscourger buying time, but he's just that one turn ahead as he Shows in Sneak Attack with the exact mana to land Emrakul and Griselbrand immediately for lethal.

g3:
My hand on the play is
Lackey
Lackey
Matron
Ringleader
Chalice
Cavern
Cavern

Opponent mulled to 6.
Me T1: Cavern, Lackey.
Opp T1: Fetch-->Island, Ponder (shuffle).
Me T2: Draw Chalice #2. Then, ...how would you play it out from here?



(As it turned out, the opponent's T2 was no land, petal, go. I had Chalice at 1 by then, so perhaps he had dead cantrips. Unsure.)

[jrw1985]

T2 I'd play a land, cast Chalice @ 1, cast Chalice @ 0 (since SnT plays Petal), attack with lackey, cheat in Matron, Tutor Piledriver. T3 attack with everything, cheat in Ringleader (depending on what's drawn) and cast Piledriver and Lackey. T4 attack them down to 3 (or play a Warchief and win).

I'd have to go with playing Chalice to disrupt them t2 and stop them from sculpting. Otherwise that hand isn't fast enough to race them. The other option is playing chalice at 0 turn two, then lackey into Matron into Piledriver, but then you leave them open to sculpting t2, which is worse for you because you can't win T3. They can.

[jrw1985]

Ps- what happened against mono G? I would think that would be a cakewalk.

[Sockosensei]

T2 I'd play a land, cast Chalice @ 1, cast Chalice @ 0 (since SnT plays Petal), attack with lackey, cheat in Matron, Tutor Piledriver. T3 attack with everything, cheat in Ringleader (depending on what's drawn) and cast Piledriver and Lackey. T4 attack them down to 3 (or play a Warchief and win).

I'd have to go with playing Chalice to disrupt them t2 and stop them from sculpting. Otherwise that hand isn't fast enough to race them. The other option is playing chalice at 0 turn two, then lackey into Matron into Piledriver, but then you leave them open to sculpting t2, which is worse for you because you can't win T3. They can.

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense.

I focused so much on which goblin to play that I forgot to play the second Chalice at 0!
I went T2 Cavern, Lackey attack-->Ringleader, revealing Ringleader, SGC, land, land. Play Chalice at 1.
My thinking was to hold back Matron a bit longer in case I needed to fetch Stingscourger later. I've been second guessing this since, which is why I posted.

Opp t2: No land, Petal.
my t3: Draw Mountain. Lackey and Ringleader hit him down to 16, dropping a free SGC. Play Mountain, Matron fetching Chieftain and threatening to swing for lethal on T4. He now needs to go off immediately or draw Pyroclasm without cantrips.
I still have Lackey, Chieftain, Ringleader, and Chalice in hand if he wipes the board.
He draws, messes with my head for a moment, and then scoops em up.


In the Mono Green match, I kept a slowish hand with Wasteland and Port to back a Vial. It turned out he was playing Chrome Mox and Elvish Spirit Guide to accelerate into Garruk-1. He soon had 3/3 tokens, was untapping Sol Lands with Garruk, playing multiple Obstinate Baloths, and beating face. I was on my way to stabilizing when he got Jitte online to smash my dreams.
G2 was very close. I had a solid starting hand, but then flooded with lands, excess Vials, and below average Ringleaders. Again I nearly stabilized at 2 life with Krenko making tokens galore, but again he drew Jitte and finished me.

[jrw1985]

I'm bored. Somebody write a tournament report for me. I haven't gotten to play since forever ago.



Uuuuugh.

[Bichon_Blitz]

g3:
My hand on the play is
Lackey
Lackey
Matron
Ringleader
Chalice
Cavern
Cavern

Opponent mulled to 6.
Me T1: Cavern, Lackey.
Opp T1: Fetch-->Island, Ponder (shuffle).
Me T2: Draw Chalice #2. Then, ...how would you play it out from here?

Chalice @ 1 and it's not even close. I don't ever want my SnT opponent to cantrip or sculpt. Petal just accelerates the win that they'd usually get against us anyways.

[Bichon_Blitz]

Just realized you had drawn a second chalice, derp. Perhaps another chalice @ 1 for any hate bounce.

[GoboLord]

I'm bored. Somebody write a tournament report for me. I haven't gotten to play since forever ago.



Uuuuugh.

Give me a list and I will play it on sunday. You know how it works :-D

[Dice_Box]

Try this then:

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Warren Instigator
1 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Sensation Gorger
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Æther Vial
2 Chrome Mox

10 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port


Gorger, impossible to depend on, but sometimes plays hell with combo decks. Mostly a great cheat when playing with an open Vial. If you really don't want Gorger go for Tarfire in its place.

[GoboLord]

Try this then:
[...]


No offense, but I was asking jrw1985, since I've had positive experiences (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=678088&viewfull=1#post678088) with that.

[Dice_Box]

Oh, ok. Well I guess I will just see what you guys come up with then.

[jrw1985]

Try this then:

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Warren Instigator
1 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Sensation Gorger
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Æther Vial
2 Chrome Mox

10 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

Gorger, impossible to depend on, but sometimes plays hell with combo decks. Mostly a great cheat when playing with an open Vial. If you really don't want Gorger go for Tarfire in its place.

I don't like gorger just because he's symmetric. He restocks your opponents hand too. Now maybe this is good against a combo deck that plays a lot of cantrips and has to set up a one turn kill, but imagine this effect resolving against Burn, Reanimator, Elves, affinity or (shudders) Dredge. Your opponent will benefit from it greatly.

@Gobolord: See what I said about those two flex slots MD?

[FTW]

step 1 win the die roll (clutch)

turn 1 lackey -------> turn 1 cantrip
turn 2 swing, drop siege gang, cast piledriver ------->turn 2 more cantrips
turn 3 swing big, assuming you dont have the kill keep up port mana. --------->turn 3 oops i cant cast show n tell without a sol land. if they are on omni halls plan then gg.

that is how its done. i dont think porting on turn 2 is better than dropping a piledriver.

If you choose to wait to turn 3 to port because you have a nut draw, why would you not just pay 1R and KILL them instead? Porting is good, but winning is better. Lackey + SGC + Piledriver is a turn 3 goldfish... T2 you hit for 1, T3 you hit for 17 and you can just fling a goblin for the last 2 points. Or you can be a jackass and port their Island since they can never tap Ancient Tomb for mana ever...

Because Piledriver makes this a turn 3 kill, if you cast Piledriver precombat they are probably forced to Force it in case you nut-drop SGC from Lackey and just kill them. So at that point they have to Force either Thalia or Piledriver on turn 2 to avoid a loss, and I'd rather have the Thalia in case they don't force and you don't actually have the SGC to drop. Then again, if opponents can't do math, then casting a "harmless" Piledriver and saving Thalia for SnT may be the better play.

[Sockosensei]

I'm bored. Somebody write a tournament report for me. I haven't gotten to play since forever ago.


I plan to take your mono-red list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=736720&viewfull=1#post736720) again this Tuesday and will write a report after.

Last week there was a small turnout:
ANT
Merfolk - black splash for Discard
Merfolk - white splash for StP, Geist
Jund
Mono-green Beast Stompy (the same player usually brings BW Lingering Souls+equipment)
Shardless BUG
BUG Delver
Sneak & Show

Other decks that I often see at that shop are High Tide, MUD, RUG Delver, Esper Stoneblade, and even mono-red Dragons.


I'm still horrendous at figuring out what to side in, and more importantly, side out.
I know that's a lot of decks to think of sideboarding plans against, but I need to start somewhere so any advice would be appreciated.

[GoboLord]

Report Time!
Piloted jrw1985’s list yesterday.

//MANA (22)
4 Caverns
4 Waste
4 Ports

CORE (26)
…

OTHERS (12)
4 Gempalm
4 MWM
1 Stingscourger
1 Krenko
2 Relic

Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline otV
4 Chalice otV
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Blood Moon
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Round 1: Marcel with 4c Countertop feat. Delver and Punishing Fire
G1: Nothing spectacular. Vial sticks on Turn 1. After that I have 2 Wastelands and a Rishadan Port. I take some beating from Delver of Secrets, but I kill the insect and finish him with Piledriver + X.

-2 MWM, +2 Blood Moon

G2: I open with Lackey, which connects. I resolve Blood Moon to keep him from casting Engineered Plague. One turn later my men get Firespout-ed. I recover and kill him.

Round 2: Pascal with BUrg Storm
G1: I open with Lackey. Pascal uses Probe + C. Therapy to get rid of my Ringleader. I connect into Warchief for a T4 kill, which is apparently too fast for him.

-4 Vial, -2 Relic, -1 Ringleader, -4 Gempalm, -1 Stinger, +4 Chalice, +4 MBT, + 4 Leyline

G2: I open with 2 Leylines, 1 MBT, 1 Lackey, 1 Port and something else. Pascal can’t win through 3 pieces of hate paired with a fast clock.

Round 3: Marc with 5c Tempo-eque Good-Stuff-thingy-deck
G1: Too many Delvers, Deathrie Shamans and Stifle

-1 SGC, -1 Stinger, +2 Blood Moon
G2: His opening hand was something like 2 Lightning Bolt, 2 Delver, 2 lands,1 Ponder. His consecutive draws were Bolt, (Delver in Ponder) and Geist of Saint Traft. No chance there.

Round 4: Timur with Mono U Sea Stompy
G1: I get locked out by Tangle Wire + Esperzoa.

-1 Relic, + 1 Tuktuk

G2: I kill him with Lackey, Krenko, and 2 Piledrivers.

G3: I’m staring at a Sea Drake, which hold a Jitte on Turn 2. One Turn Later the guy gets pumped up by Sigil Blessing.

Round 5: Matthias with bUrg Tempo
G1: I die to double Delver

-1 SGC, -1 Stinger, +2 Blood Moon

G2: Lackey trades with Nimble Mongoose. Gempalm trades with Delver. After that he’s pretty much pout of creatures.

G3: This game takes an eternity. We trade back and forth and at some point at around Turn 17 my hand looks like this: 1 Blood Moon, 2 Ringleader, 1 Krenko, 1 Lackey, 1 Piledriver. I have 5 Mountains and 2 Cavern and some 1/1 bodies in play after he wiped me with Fire Conveant, paying 8 life. Strangely enough I lose the game. Blood Moon meets Daze, Krenko meets Bolt, Ringleader #1 meets Stifle, Ringleader #2 is a blank. I lost the game because I didn’t play my spells in the right order. Should have started with casting Ringleaders I guess. Also, playing Blood Moon into Daze was not the brightest idea either.

So, this day ended with a disappointing 2-3.


What I liked:
Leylines, Chalice, being Mono R

What I didn’t like:
Relic in MD, Krenko, SGC, Blood Moon

Future directions
* I will replace 2 Relics with 2 Pyrokinesis
* I will probably try a list without neither Krenko nor SGC, because they are too clunky. Those 3 slots will probably be filled with a combination of one ore more of the following cards: Warren Instigator, Goblin Chieftain, Stingscourger, Frogtosser Banneret
* I will replace Blood Moon with something else – probably Sharpshooter and Boartusk Liege.

As always, thanks for reading. And thanks to jrw1985 for the decklist.

[jrw1985]

@Gobolord: Thanks for playing the deck. Too bad about the finish. I like that you'd rather have Pyrokinesis md than relic. That's good to know. I'll md pyros the next time I play.

[jrw1985]

@sockosensei: good luck on Tuesday!

[Sockosensei]

As promised, I took jrw1985's mono red list to the local shop again--the exact same 75 as last Tuesday.

Rd 1 vs Faerie (Reanimator) -- no clue what he's on. Promptly lose the die roll.

G1
Opp keeps. I draw Mtn, Mtn, Lackey, Warchief, Matron, Gempalm, Pyrokinesis. Keep.
Opp T1: Fetch-->U. Sea, pass.
Gob T1: Draw Vial. I consider going Lackey thinking he has Spell Pierce, but on a hunch I play Vial. It resolves.
O T2: Island, Bitterblossom.
G T2: Tick Vial to 1. Draw Wasteland. Waste his Sea.
My notes stop here, but I remember Lackey at his next EoT, Gempalm his on faerie token and Lackey swings through, bringing Warchief in. Subsequent turns involved us both building an army until I responded to a Vendilion Clique trigger (targeting me) by wiping his board with Pyrokinesis, swinging him down to 7 with another swing coming and Blossom sucking his life and hope.
He draws and scoops.

Side: +1 Chieftain, play 61 cards.

G2
Mull to 6, keeping Lackey, PD, PD, Gempalm, Mtn, Mtn.
His T1 Thoughtseize grabs Lackey. I draw Gempalm, play mtn and pass.
T2 he drops Blossom, then Forces my T2 Piledriver. He's already at 15 life thanks to Fetches. Notes stop, but I recall Port buying time to build an army before resolving Pyrokinesis. I swing him down to 3 and he scoops.
He explains after that he had been Brainstorm digging for Entomb-->Elesh Norn to reanimate with Goryo's Vengeance in hand and wipe my board. I'd had no clue he had any graveyard elements at all.
2-0 victory

1-0 in rounds.


Rd 2: vs Junk Blade.
This is the guy that usually thumps me with Sneak & Show, but this time I caught a glimpse of a Scrubland and Thalia.
I lose the roll.

G1:
I keep Vial, MWM, Warchief, SGC, Port, Mtn, Mtn.
His turns go something like this:
T1 Thoughtseize grabbing Vial
T2 SFM fetching Jitte
T3 (Port on his Scrubland) DRS
T4 Play Jitte, equip and swing.
T5 Hymn hitting 2x SGC
T6 Hymn hitting my remaining 2 cards
I play it out for a few turns but the active Jitte makes it a lost cause.

Side +2 Bloodmoon, +1 Tuktuk, +1 Chieftain; -1 each of SGC, PD, Gempalm. 61.

G2
Opening seven has no red mana and is all-in on Vial with 3, 4, 5 drops and RR costs. He certainly has Abrupt Decay.
Mull to 6 gives 4 Land, Ringleader Ringleader.
Mull to 5: Mtn, Cavern, Warchief, Warchief, Ringleader. Keep.
He's mulled to 6 and his turns go:
T1 DRS; T2 SFM (Jitte); T3 Jitte, equip swing.
By the time I draw Matron--Tuktuk and kill his Jitte, he's got Bob, Batterskull, and Engineered Plague out. My earlier Ringleader had revealed Vial, Vial, Cavern. Piledriver.
I end the game with a 0/1 Piledriver and lots of land.
0-2 loss

1-1 in rounds.


Rd 3 vs Enchantress
I lose the roll, but he mulls to 5.
I look at Mtn, Port, Lackey, Matron, Warchief, Ringleader, SGC. Solid, keep.
Opp T1 Forest --> Utopia Sprawl (white)
Gob T1 Mtn, Lackey.
O T2: Plains, Argothian Enchantress
G T2: Lackey swings through-->SGC enters. Port.
O T3: (Port the Sprawl forest on his upkeep). Serra's Sanctum.
G T4: Team swings through. PD enters off Lackey. Wasteland his Sanctum.
O T5 (Port on enchanted forest) Draws and scoops.

Side out 2x Gempalm, side in Tuktuk, Chieftain.
I'm not familiar with the matchup but I remember that key creatures have shroud. Not sure what the win condition is so I keep Pyrokinesis in just in case.

G2
Very iffy keep of something like Mtn, Mtn, MWM, MWM, Matron, Warchief, Gempalm.
He had mana trouble as I drew Port and hit his Enchanted land. With an Argotian Enchantress out, he played and soon sacrificed Elephant Grass, Elephant Grass, and Solitary Confinement on consecutive turns. I thought Solitary was going to be the end of me since he had 5-6 cards in hand with the lady out. BUT he didn't have any more enchantments to keep drawing cards and had to let it go. I got double Warchief and double MWM out and had my choice of ways to kill him while still porting and Wasting his mana sources and holding Matron. He scooped to a revealed Krenko.
I was still holding back Lackey, Ringleader and something else in case of a surprise board wipe.

2-0 win

Fnished at 2-1 in rounds.


Notes

In two weeks (but only 5 rounds) of playing the deck, I went 3-2 plus a bye bringing me to 4-2.
Impressive feat: I lost the die roll in all 5 of those rounds.
More impressive feat: I've lost the die roll in 11 consecutive rounds of Legacy, and had lost an additional 5/6 before that. I'm very much looking forward to a string of luck...after I burn my dice. (Ssssssh about that Gambler's Falacy!)
Biggest disappointment: I never drew a Blood Moon. I really really really wanted to drop one vs a RUG deck.
I only got to play Chalice in one game ( vs S&T last week).


Positives: I've very much enjoyed not having to worry about Wasteland or Stifle.
Negatives: I *really* missed maindeck artifact kill vs Jitte (mono-green Stompy last week and Junk Blade this week), so in 2 of 5 rounds. Jitte was the deciding factor in both of those rounds.

@jrw1985: Thanks for the list. I wish I could have provided deeper insights.


Next up on my tour of Goblin builds, either Thalia or Warren Instigator.

[fimo]

wow it has been a month since I last played the deck, it should be illegal. BUT.... luckily I could play at my local tourney again and I showed up with goblins. My list is always the same, for reference:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 vial

4 thalia
3 Mogg War Marshal

1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief

4 Goblin Ringleader
2 krenko
1 tuktuk scrapper

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
3 Mountain
1 karakas
2 plateau
5 red fetches

//Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
2 angel of despair
1 Stingscourger

1 grafdigger s cage
1 relic of progenitus
2 rest in peace

1 Pithing Needle
1 pyrokinesis
2 wear//tear

I ended up "officially" 4-1-1 , but it was actually a 5-1.
G1: homebrew stompy deck. win 2-1
G2: D&T. win 2-1
G3: esper miracles. lost 1-2
G4: stiflenought. win 2-0
G5: dragon stompy: win 2-1
G6: we drew into prices. However, we played for fun anyway and I won 2-1. He played omnitell.

My meta is very D&T heavy, I basically meet it every tourney. All games come down to whether he gets to attack with jitte before I can activate krenko. D&T has a million ways to make our æter vial useless so don t count on that. Keep hands with multiple lands or its extremely good mana denial is gonna get you. Gempalm incinerator is all star here. If they can t beatdown with equipments they basically cannot win so it is important to keep that in check. A couple of krenko activations will win the game. It seems that they shifted from serra avenger to mirran crusader which is very good for us since we can block crusader until the end of time.

In the last round I liked to have very specific hate against omnitell in the form of angel of despair. I think it is fair enough to dedicate 2 SB spaces only to S&T, it is so though. However, I would like to hear your opinion on mindbreak trap in this MU. Is it good or borderline ok? Please somebody with experience in this MU.

I don t know really what to say more, I like my MD I wouldn t change a thing. SB needs some little adjustment though. I would like to have the second pyrokinesis and maybe the third wear//tear. Don t know what to cut though.

[jrw1985]

@fimo Cut Angel of Despair. You're never going to draw them when you need them, and their application is extremely narrow. Tear is an instant that can be cast on Omni after SnT in response to your own Goblin's EtB ability anyway, so that card is already an answer to your SnT woes.

[fimo]

@fimo Cut Angel of Despair. You're never going to draw them when you need them, and their application is extremely narrow. Tear is an instant that can be cast on Omni after SnT in response to your own Goblin's EtB ability anyway, so that card is already an answer to your SnT woes.

Yeah I understand what you mean. But don t forget about having a 5/5 body. In one of the games my opponent casted S&T, reveal omniscience + angel of despair. In response to the trigger he cunning wished (for free) for a stifle effect (for free) and stifled angel's ability. However, I won that game because he didn t have enough time to win. If I had wear//tear he could have cunning wished for a counter. If he doesn t have cunning wish he can just have a counter in hand or an intuition-->counter for wear//tear. And if he S&T for an emrakul and I have a wear//tear I die.
I hate angel being so narrow as well....but S&T is a strong popular combo that is gonna stay around. I m afraid we need some number of game winning answers to it.

[GreenShorty]

Hey all.

Is there a specific way you guys handle jund?

I'm almost giving up on my beloved gobbos deck because of this matchup. It seems to me that it's almost impossible to win without having lady luck play her part (mana screwed opponent etc).

Storm deck's don't annoy me anymore (I even enjoy those matches), but jund simply makes me frustrated. It doesn't matter if I mull aggressively for SB cards or if I have a perfect early game (lackey connecting, mana denial working etc), the opponent always seem to get back on the game and I run out of gas (specially when they thoughtseize your ringleader away). When grove and punishing fire join the party it's almost GG.

I don't know... maybe I feel this way because I practice this matchup against a fellow ex-gobbo team member (kinda like my "jedi master", as he teached me the way of the green dudes), a person who certainly understands my deck.

Am I the only one who suffers this bad to win this matchup?

[jrw1985]

So after a month without playing I brought the following to my LGS tonight, only to go 0-2 then drop after getting byed in the 3rd round. Rough night.

List

4 Lackey
4 Vial
4 Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm
4 Matron
4 Warchief
4 Ringleader
1 Krenko
2 Seige-Gang Commander
2 Pyrokinesis

4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
10 Mountain

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Blood Moon

R1 Affinity
G1 I'm on the draw and Mull to 6. I keep a hand of three lands, Vial, Matron, Gempalm. My opponent goes T1 Phyrexian Walker, Artifact land, Chrome Mox, Stoneforge for Batterskull. I play Mountain, Vial, Go, and scoop after he casts a few more 0 drops and vomits his hand out.
G2 I side in Tuktuk and 4 Chalice of the Void (11 0cc in his deck). I draw an opening 7 with Lackey, Matron, Warchief, Piledriver and 3 lands. It's a completely decent hand, but not very interactive, so I just hope he doesn't go off T1. I play Mountain, Lackey, go. T1 he plays Memnite, Walker, Springleaf drum, artifact land. T2 I play Piledriver. T2 he plays SFM for Batterskull and some 0 drops. I draw a Chalice and play it at 0 (not that it matters at this point...). Matron for Tuktuk kills Batterskull, but he plays another SFM for Cranial Plating. I keep ticking up Vial and keep blocking his attackers, trying to kill his guys and drag him into deep water. He plays Tezzeret and +1s it. I tick Vial up to 5 with SGC in hand, but I don't vial it in. I was gonna wait til the end of his turn to do that, or his attack step. I forgot Tezz's -4 ability which killed me that turn instead.

Don't be like me. Read cards.

R2 - Jund
G1 I'm on the draw. We both keep our 7s. He leads with Bayou, go. I lead with Vial off Mountain. He Hymns me, hitting my Port which was my big T2 play (shoulda led with Port, not Mountain: since he had no T1 play it wasn't likely that he would have a Waste + T2 play anyway). I tick up Vial and play a land. He Hymns me again. Then he plays 2 Bloodbraids + 2 Bobs. Oh, and he Decays my Vial. I was never really in this one.
G2 I side in Tuktuk and Blood Moons, taking out 3 Piledrivers (in retrospect, not the best SB play since I was on the play and could use the tempo). We both mull to 5. I have T1 Lackey + T2 Wasteland and I win pretty easy with the help of my last lone Piledriver. Variance win.
G3 We bth keep seven. He leads with T1 Deathrite, I with Vial. He plays Lilliana T2 and we discard. Not much happens for a few turns. He plays a Goyf and I play Warchief + Stingscourger to bounce it and swing at Lilly to kill her (he had -2'd her the turn before to kill a Matron for some reason). His following turn he has a Decay for my Warchief. Stinger dies in my upkeep. I cast a Ringleader netting 2 cards. My opponent then plays 2 Goyfs. I get another goblin in play and Gempalm the DRS, hoping to draw into MWM to buy some time. No dice. I draw Pyrokinesis instead and both goyfs are 6/7. I die to beats shortly thereafter.

Rough night. 1 Variance win, 4 losses. I really fucked myself on one of them (G2 against Affinity). The rest I just kept drawing fairly slow hands when I really needed more explosive ones. Not much to say about it. Thalia MD wouldn't have helped. Relic would have been useful to sideboard against Jund. And Prospector + Sharpshooter might have to come back into the MD to battle random Batterskulls without filling MD slots with the terrible Tuktuk Scrapper. No great options either way.

[fimo]

4 Lackey
4 Vial
4 Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm
4 Matron
4 Warchief
4 Ringleader
1 Krenko
2 Seige-Gang Commander
2 Pyrokinesis

4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
10 Mountain

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Blood Moon


R2 - Jund
G1 I'm on the draw. We both keep our 7s. He leads with Bayou, go. I lead with Vial off Mountain. He Hymns me, hitting my Port which was my big T2 play (shoulda led with Port, not Mountain: since he had no T1 play it wasn't likely that he would have a Waste + T2 play anyway). I tick up Vial and play a land. He Hymns me again. Then he plays 2 Bloodbraids + 2 Bobs. Oh, and he Decays my Vial. I was never really in this one.
G2 I side in Tuktuk and Blood Moons, taking out 3 Piledrivers (in retrospect, not the best SB play since I was on the play and could use the tempo). We both mull to 5. I have T1 Lackey + T2 Wasteland and I win pretty easy with the help of my last lone Piledriver. Variance win.
G3 We bth keep seven. He leads with T1 Deathrite, I with Vial. He plays Lilliana T2 and we discard. Not much happens for a few turns. He plays a Goyf and I play Warchief + Stingscourger to bounce it and swing at Lilly to kill her (he had -2'd her the turn before to kill a Matron for some reason). His following turn he has a Decay for my Warchief. Stinger dies in my upkeep. I cast a Ringleader netting 2 cards. My opponent then plays 2 Goyfs. I get another goblin in play and Gempalm the DRS, hoping to draw into MWM to buy some time. No dice. I draw Pyrokinesis instead and both goyfs are 6/7. I die to beats shortly thereafter.


Maybe it would have been better to SB leyline of the void? jund cannot win without GY: shaman, goyf, punishing fire, ooze. And abrupt decay doesn t take leyline. pyrokinesis is not that great against heavy discard decks. If they hymn you, you can t afford to cast pyrokinesis otherwise you end up hellbent. Also, I am not a big fan of blood moon agains shaman decks. I would have probably SB +4leyline -2 pyrokinesis -2 PD. Was tuktuk meant for jitte?
Anyway jund is a rather unfavorable MU. All their card are relevant against our deck and some of them are awsome like punishing fire.

[Sir_tokealot]

Hey all.

Is there a specific way you guys handle jund?

I'm almost giving up on my beloved gobbos deck because of this matchup. It seems to me that it's almost impossible to win without having lady luck play her part (mana screwed opponent etc).

Storm deck's don't annoy me anymore (I even enjoy those matches), but jund simply makes me frustrated. It doesn't matter if I mull aggressively for SB cards or if I have a perfect early game (lackey connecting, mana denial working etc), the opponent always seem to get back on the game and I run out of gas (specially when they thoughtseize your ringleader away). When grove and punishing fire join the party it's almost GG.

I don't know... maybe I feel this way because I practice this matchup against a fellow ex-gobbo team member (kinda like my "jedi master", as he teached me the way of the green dudes), a person who certainly understands my deck.

Am I the only one who suffers this bad to win this matchup?

i use this for a sideboard, 1 pyroblast, 1 tin street hooligan, 2 krosan grip, 3 thalia, 3 relic of progenitus, 3 pyrokinesis. against jund i sideboard in 3 pyrokinesis to help lackey and hopefully kill 2+ creatures, also bring in 3 relic of progenitus to hate on deathrite, goyf, and punishing fire. use your wastelands strictly on their grove of the burnwillows. unless they are mana screwed and you can spiral them into oblivion. i sideboard out tin street hooligan, stingscourger, skirk prospector, sharpshooter, 1 piledriver, 1 warchief. i dont side in krosan grip until game 3 and only if i see engineered plague or a strange number of artifacts.

[Asgar]

Boartusk liege is the powerhouse in this matchup, negates Plaque and doesn't get decayed, bolted or punished.

[jrw1985]

Maybe it would have been better to SB leyline of the void? jund cannot win without GY: shaman, goyf, punishing fire, ooze. And abrupt decay doesn t take leyline. pyrokinesis is not that great against heavy discard decks. If they hymn you, you can t afford to cast pyrokinesis otherwise you end up hellbent. Also, I am not a big fan of blood moon agains shaman decks. I would have probably SB +4leyline -2 pyrokinesis -2 PD. Was tuktuk meant for jitte?
Anyway jund is a rather unfavorable MU. All their card are relevant against our deck and some of them are awsome like punishing fire.

Tuktuk absolutely was for Jitte, which I say him desideboard after the match. Jitte is a pretty standard sb card in Jund.

Leyline is a pretty bad option against Jund because Jund isn't trying to go off t1-2, and their Goyfs get big off of your gy too, so Leyline is a dead draw mid game and it doesn't really shut off anything of theirs. Also, the Jund deck I was playing against didn't seem to run Grove and P Fire. If it did I might consider boarding Leyline. Relic still seems better though. It's just that every time I run Relic I seem to run into Reanimator and Storm, and every time I run Leyline I run into Goyf decks.

Question for the forum:

What cards do you find yourself losing to most often?

My list:

Tarmagoyf
Planeswalkers (Jace, Tezz, Lilly)
Equipment (Batterskull, Jitte, Cranial)

These are the cards which are most difficult to answer and have the most powerful board presence, in my opinion. What else?

[magicmerl]

Question for the forum:

What cards do you find yourself losing to most often?

My list:

Tarmagoyf
Planeswalkers (Jace, Tezz, Lilly)
Equipment (Batterskull, Jitte, Cranial)

These are the cards which are most difficult to answer and have the most powerful board presence, in my opinion. What else?
Dark Ritual, Entomb, Show and Tell, Tarmogoyf, Delver.

I don't tend to find planeswalkers or equipment hard since our tutor package is good vs equipment (and removal kills the creatures) and haste deals to planeswalkers nicely.

[jrw1985]

OK, I threw together this awesome POS list and went 2-1 with it today...

4 Lackey
4 Vial
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Piledriver
3 MWM
1 Stingscourger
4 Gemplam
4 Warchief
4 Matron
1 Sharpshooter
4 Ringleader
2 Krenko
2 Lightning Crafter
1 Tuktuk

4 Waste, Port, Cavern
10 Mountain

SB (Super-POS, but great)
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tarfire
1 Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Zo-zu the punisher
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Boartusk Leige
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Sensation Gorger

R1 Reanimator
I'm on the draw G1. My opponent plays T1 Polluted Delta, pass. I play Port into Vial. He Eot fetches fro swamp and Canst Entomb for Elesh Norn. T2 he plays Underground Sea and Reanimates Elesh Norn. I play a second vial. He beats for 3. I start porting him. He Reanimates a Grisselbrand. On my turn I cast Ringleader into a Stingscourger and bounce Elesh Norn. Stingscourger hits the bin and I play a Lackey. On his turn he Careful Studies, then Exhumes. Elesh returns, wiping my board, but Stinger bounces Elesh as well. I take 7 from Grizz, leaving me at 4. On my turn I have Vial at 3 and 4. I Vial in Warchief, then Vial in Kenko. I activate Krenko for 2 goblins. I then cast a second Krenko, sacking the tapped one (Hooray Rules Changes!), then Active the new Krenko for 4 more Goblins. Then I Gemalm Grizz for 8. He takes his turn and scoops.

G2 I side out 3 MWM, 1 Tuktuk, 2 Lightning Crafter, 1 Sharpshooter.
I bring in 3 Relic, Piledriver, Stinger, Chieftain and Leige.
My opening hand has Lackey, Piledriver, and 2 Stingers and Warchief. Yes, please. My opponent plays a Swamp and passes. I play Lackey. T2 he plays Underground Sea into Careful Study and discards Sphinx of the Steel Wind. I hit with Lackey and drop Warchief then cast Piledriver, then I Waste the Sea. He does nothing on his turn. I play a Port and swing, then port him on his upkeep and he scoops.

R2 Storm
I lose G1
G2 I side in Sensation Gorger on the belief that random 5 card hands are bad for storm decks. I also side in Zo-Zu and Piledriver and maybe some other stuff, taking out MWMs and Gempalms. I lead with Lackey. My opponent tries to go off but misplays. I win.
G3 we both mull to 6. I keep a hand without a 1-drop. This is a mistake. My hand has Piledriver, Wasteland, 2 mountains and 2 3-drops. I hope to rip a 1-drop so I can use Wasteland and start cheating shit into play. It doesn't happen. Instead he digs T1. I Play a Mountain. He digs T2. I now Waste a land of his, but he's still ahead. He digs some more. I play a 2nd land and play Piledriver. He wins 1 or two turns later. I should have mulled to 5. If you can't pressure Storm then you can't beat it. Mana disruption will only help if you are slowing them down more than you're slowing yourself down. That was not the case here, and I lost.

R3 Death and Taxes
G1 i'm on the draw and mull to 5. He keeps his 7 and leads with Vial. I play Vial as well. He plays SFM and gets a Jitte. I cast Pilediver T2. He plays a land and cast Jitte, leaving W open. I just tick up Vial to 2 on my turn and play a land and pass. I have Gempalm in hand. I realize that he's going to equip and attack next turn, and I'm going to block and Gempalm before damage, just to kill his SFM and keep Jitte out of play for another turn. But I also know that he's holding W open and is probably going to Swords Piledriver in response to Gempalm. I'm actually OK with this because the block will have been declared, and Jitte will stay counterless. This is exactly what happens. He attacks, I block and Gempalm, he Swords, and jitte gets 0 counters. Given that 1 turn window I'm able to maneuver into a position where I activate Vial @3 with a Warchief on the table, he lets it resolve, and I use a hastey Sharpshooter to clean up and take the game.
G2 is very similar. I side out Piledrivers and Stingscourger for Tarfire and Tinkerer. He leads with T1 Mom and I dont have the Tarfire. I eventually scoop once he nabs a jitte and I can't find artifact hate to kill it.
G3 again revolves around a Jitte hitting play, but this time I've built up too much of a board for it to win the game.

I liked the goblin sideboard. I think I'll putz with it some more.

[goblinsplayer]

When do you board in boartusk leige in? By the way, my sideboard currently looks like this.

4 cotv
3 relic
3 pyrokinesis
3 pyroblast
1 boartusk leige
1 tuktuk scrapper.

Can you give feedback? I haven't touched goblins in like a month so I need to update my list a little.

[Bichon_Blitz]

When do you board in boartusk leige in? By the way, my sideboard currently looks like this.

4 cotv
3 relic
3 pyrokinesis
3 pyroblast
1 boartusk leige
1 tuktuk scrapper.

Can you give feedback? I haven't touched goblins in like a month so I need to update my list a little.

Jund is when you baord him in, against plague

[Olaf Forkbeard]

...

Question for the forum:

What cards do you find yourself losing to most often?

My list:

Tarmagoyf
Planeswalkers (Jace, Tezz, Lilly)
Equipment (Batterskull, Jitte, Cranial)

These are the cards which are most difficult to answer and have the most powerful board presence, in my opinion. What else?



My list is actually the following.
Tarmogoyf + any other beat stick (Another Tarmogoyf, Delver, Thalia equipped with anything etc).
Umezawa's Jitte + any other beat stick.
Devastating Dreams
Recently in my shop Marit Lage (From Dark Depths)
Jace, the Mind Sculptor + Cover (Kill / Counter / Dudes in the way)


But that is because my meta is heavy on loam. After looking at them I'm simply realizing that each of them is a problem because we can't race it. Goyf blocks. Jitte blocks and attacks. Devastating Dreams halts attacks and rebound capability. Jace stalls till victory. Each of them simply make sit unfavorable to attack.

I've found my answer to Goyf is an extra Stingscourger over a Gempalm (if and only if the meta is Goyf heavy).

As for Jitte, its racing to see who is online faster, can I hit critical mass OR artifact destruction before he gets Jitte online.

Devastating Dreams is rough. Beatable if a Blood Moon resolves first so he can't follow it up with loam for wastes on your non-basics. Or if he is ballsy enough to do it with a Relic of Progenitus in play you can push through that as well. That 23rd land is a godsend in this match up.

Marit Lage - Screw this guy. I don't want to keep vial at two for a Stingscourger all game, but I feel like I have to. They can Knight of the Reliquary / Loam it together followed by end phase Legendary Flying Indestructable 20/20.

When I die to Jace, I was already in a bad position. So, there is no real way to fight it other than tight play BEFORE he resolves. I'd also advise tight play during his resolution and afterwords as well.

[GoboLord]

2 Lightning Crafter
0 Siege-Gang COmmander

Tell me more about that, please. Last week I pondered about kicking SGC entirely (in favor of some cc1-3 cards though), so I'm interested in hearing your thoughts behind that.

[LeoCop 90]

Hello dear goblin players, i'm going to bore you with a report of the tournament I attended today in my lgs (Mana Base in Macerata,Italy). We were 30 people and played five rounds before top8.

The night before i changed my deck and copied the recent Max Tietze's list that he piloted to victory recently in Atlanta, sideboard included.
For reference, this one : http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=4714&d=227225
I have never been fond of things like 4 gempalms, 23 lands with 4 rishadan ports, 4 piledrivers and before switching i was playing 3 piledrivers, 3 gempalms, 22 lands with 3 ports,2 tarfire and even a 3/2 split between warchief and chieftain.
Honestly now i have to thank max because i ended up losing in the final match, winning a tundra that I immediately traded with two plateaus ( what should I do with a tundra? I'll never play those boring colours), and i liked the deck very much, especially the redundancy given by the 4th piledriver, gempalm and port.

Here's the report:
Round 1 U/R Delver + stiflenought 2-1
He was playing a weird list of u/r delver with stifle and phyrexian dreadnought and some miracles like Thunderous Wrath.

Game 1: he preordains, and ponders , and brainstorms again while i apply pressure with vial and a bit of manadenial. easy and fast win.

Game 2: (in 3 thalia, out 2 lackey because i'm on the draw and 1 mogg war marshal. i think i should have sided out all 3 marshals aniway because lackey must be bolted or blocked) He casts the dreadnought and stifles it on turn 2. I'm very surprised and don't have stingscourger in hand so i lose.

Game 3: (in 2 krosan grip, out the two remaining marshals, in 2 lackeys, out 1 prospector and something else) I'm on the play and he mulls to five while i keep my 7 that include a lot of vial/lands hoping to draw into matron/ringleader. He plays grim lavamancer on turn 1 and i'm pretty disappointed. The game stalls for quite a long time with me playing random goblins that get killed by either bolts or lavamancer, until i find a gempalm to kill him and stabilize a bit. aniway time ends and when he has 2 turns left he decides to attack with lavamancer and throw some bolts at my face hoping to kill me next turn. I have only two tokens in play but a vial at 3 and one at 4 with no cards in hand. So he passes and on my last turn i topdeck ringleader that finds me a matron that finds me a warchief and i attack for 7 damage. Well, he was at 7 , i win :)



Round 2 Canadian Thresh 2-0
Game 1 : I'm on the draw and he ponders. i waste his tropical island. he doesn't have other lands so i play vial and then keep porting the only other land he manages to play.

Game 2 : he reveals me that he stopped playing 7 years ago so he doesn't know anything of the current format, this is clear because he sided in a grafdigger's cage against me... i won't go on because it was an easy win.



Round 3 Junk 0-1
Game 1: i know he is on junk and he usually stomps me when we do casual matches. Aniway I'm on the play and I start with lackey , obviously he has deathrite shaman, so i drop a vial the following turn that incredibly doesn't get decayed/pulsed/vindicated so i manage to stabilize. He attacks with Bob into my skirk prospector and i don't block suspecting something. In fact he drops a jitte and I'm able to keep it at bay for sometime with the prospector. Then i made a fatal misplay ( or maybe it was bad luck) . i decided to attack with all my goblins except prospector because he is very low on life and i think i should win the following turn. So I block with prospector and sacrifice him, but unfortunately he topdecked lingering souls that gave him 4 tokens.... obviously i couldn't win on the following turn and his jitte slowly killed my army.

Game 2:(in 3 pyrokinesis, out some piledrivers and lackeys. I don't side in krosan grips because junk can win also without equipments and i don't want to dilute my deck) We don't have the time to finish it but I think i would have lost aniway .... due to jitte again.

Round 4 Death and Taxes 2-0
Game 1: i'm on the draw , he starts with land mom while i start with vial. Fortunately he didn't played a stoneforge mystic until it was too late because i dropped a siege gang commander with him already at a quite low life total.
Game 2: he mulls to 6 while i keep my seven. he starts with land pass while i start with land vial again ( things keep getting better ). Aniway this time he has stoneforge and he also proceeds to play two moms after dropping the jitte. I have the krosan grip in hand but i need a taiga and he plays an aven mindcensor when i try to fetch. Then he didn't use well his mom's and i was able to burn the mindcensor with gempalm in some way. maybe i would have won also without his misplay because i eventually topdecked the taiga i needed.

Round 5 Death and Taxes . Draw into top 8 . I have a score of 3-1-1 and i am sixth in the ranking.

Quarterfinals U/R Delver Stiflenought that i faced on my first round. He won all the other rounds, it seems.Aniway i win 2-0, both the games on the back of a lot of gempalm incinerators ( i played all 4 of them in the second game) that eliminated his delvers and lavamancers.

Semifinals Belcher. 2-1
NO, Belcher NO ! I've already played with this guy in another tournament, in the semifinals also that time and i lost. Aniway i don't know if he is on belcher also this time
Game 1: He's on the play and he activated Belcher turn one and didn't find taiga in the first ten cards. Damn.

Game 2: (In 3 Mindbreak traps, 3 thalia, 3 pyrokinesis for empty the warrens, 2 krosan grip. Out gempalms, stingscourger,mogg war marshals and something else. I sided a lot of cards but everything is worth it to have a chance against belcher.)
I have mindbreak trap in my opening 7 and i feel like i can't lose. He sees it with gitaxian probe and is terrified. aniway he tries to play around it
but doesn't find enough spirit guides/permanent mana sources to go off without playing three spells in a turn.

Game 3: he mulls to 6 , i mull to five and have a thalia with the fetch to play her. I just cross my fingers and pray he doesn't go off in the first two turns. it doesn't happen because i see with his land grant that he has in hand two pyroblasts he sided in(very useful against thalia), so i'm able to drop my thalia and i also destroy a charbelcher he managed to drop some turns later with tin street hooligan.

Final Match vs Hive Mind 1-2
I have no idea what he is on, but it seems a bit scared by the matchup.

Game 1: I am on the draw, mull to 6 and keep a hand with 3 lands, a mogg war marshal, a warchief, a piledriver. No turn one play, no mana denial. he casts hive mind turn 4 followed by a slaughter pact and i can't apply enough pressure.

Game 2: (In 3 thalias, 3 mindbreak trap) I haven't ever played with hive mind before so i figured out mindbreak trap might be useful(terrible mistake) and i didn't even knew he played show and tell (otherwise i would have boarded in Angel of Despair. What a shame). Aniway I have a land with wasteland and port and this combined with being on the play and dropping a vial on turn one make me win also through an engineered plague(i didn't expect it) thanks to 2 piledrivers and a ringleader.

Game 3 (out 2 mindbreak traps, in 2 krosan grips. I started figuring out traps were probably useless) I have a lot of manadenial also this time , including thalia, but i was on the draw. Probably manadenial would have been enough if he didn't topdecked a show and tell and dropped hive mind with it. I suppose that if i had dropped Angel of Despair nothing would have changed because in response to the angel destroying hive mind he could have cast his pact. Am I right ?

All in all, a very tiring but rewarding day. I hope my post is not too long and boring :)

[jrw1985]

Tell me more about that, please. Last week I pondered about kicking SGC entirely (in favor of some cc1-3 cards though), so I'm interested in hearing your thoughts behind that.

I dropped SGC and ran 2 Lightning Crafter for a few reasons. First, SCG's direct damage ability is sometimes difficult to use with 12- non mountains in the list. Second, not running 5 drops lets you leave your Vials @ 4. 3rd, LC's direct damage is better at dealing with Plainswalkers.

I think I'm actually going to drop the 2nd LC and run a MD Chieftain. I want more Haste in the list, and the pump is super relevant as well.


Hello dear goblin players, i'm going to bore you with a report of the tournament I attended today in my lgs (Mana Base in Macerata,Italy). We were 30 people and played five rounds before top8.

Congrats on the finish! Too bad about the loss to Jund. Maybe more goblin-shaped artifact hate would help?

[LeoCop 90]

Maybe one more tin street hooligan could help against Junk ( not Jund ). But the problem is that equipments are only one of the problems we face against that matchup : at least the list i faced yesterday played tarmogoyf, knight of the reliquary, abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse, vindicate, liliana,hymn to tourach, thoughtseize.....with a good chance of playing his three drops turn two thanks to deathrite shaman and mox diamond. I suppose we must only hope that they get mana screwed to have a chance of winning against all the big critters, removals and disruptions.

That said, an active jitte is always the most problematic card for us, so additional artifact hate may be ok.