[Deck] Goblins

[Vandalize]

If you're looking for a strong 2-drop just pick Warren Instigator. He's a bigger threat and a thousand times better than Wardriver.

[Boots]

Not sure what you mean here, could you clarify?

I meant to say he is NOT comparable. The values of a 2 CMC creature versus a 3 CMC creature has very specific meanings. 2 CMC dudes are easier to vial, and given the count of other amounts of 2 CMC creatures in the deck dictate how you play your vial counters. It is easier to cast, being there are times where ripping that one land can be difficult.

But at the same time, the power afforded to a 3 CMC creature is higher, given the static +1/+1 and extra haste effect. Also, in playing a match like counter balance the higher Mana cost has it's value.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Just got back from my 2nd Legacy event and got 4th place over all.

Event was at Redcap's Corner (http://www.redcapscorner.com/).
29 people showed up for the GPT

Deck was:

CORE
- Goblin Warchief

+4 Warren Instigator
+4 Goblin Chieftain
+3 Gempalm Incinerator
+1 Stingscourger
+1 Siege-Gang Commander

3 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 Chrome Mox
14 Mountain

Sideboard:
1 Pulverize
1 Meltdown
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap

Round 1 - ANT
Win 2-1

Round 2 - Mud
Loss 0-2
Just a really bad match-up. He played his hand and I got 2 Lackey's out before he Kuldotha Forgemaster'd for a Blightsteel Colossus.
In: Meltdown, Goblin Tinkerer, Pulverize, 3 Pyrokinesis
Out: 4 Aether Vial, Stingscourger, Goblin Chieftain

Game 2 Wurmcoil Engine just beat my face and gained him lots of life. The last card I drew was a Goblin Tinkerer which was too little too late. It needed to be Pulverize for me to have had a chance.

Round 3 - ThopterTop
Draw 1-1-1

What a frustrating deck. Lost first game cause he had Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek out.
In: 3 artifact hate, 3 Relic of Progenitus
Out: 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Goblin Warchief, 1 Goblin Chieftain

Game 2 Goblin Tinkerer blew up Ensnaring Bridge allowing me to swing for the win.
Game 3 started with 5 minutes left in the round. Went to turns and ended in a draw.

Round 4 - Fish
Won 2-0

Round 5 - Stoneforge Bant
Won 2-0

Piledriver proved to be the allstar by keeping 3 Rhox War Monk at bay.

Placed 6th out of 29.

Top 8 - Round 1: Combo Elves
Won 2-0

Should have lost this game. My opponent made 2 play mistakes and each cost him a game loss.

Top 8 - Round 2: ANT
Lost 0-2

Game 1 lost turn 2... What can you do.
In: 3 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Chalice of the Void, 3 Relic of Progenitus
Out: 4 Aether Vial, 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Goblin Ringleader

Game 2 I mulled to 6 and got a CotV which I set at 0. I drew my 2nd one that turn. Turn 2 I needed a land and drew Chrome Mox which I attempted to play only to have the peanut gallery point out that it got countered by my first CotV... Wah wah. He went off the next turn.

Ended up getting 4th.

[GoboLord]

Hey,

congratz for the finish.
I'd like to read (more) about the first ANT match. Could you write something about it?

[Skeggi]

- Goblin Warchief
Why?

[practical joke]

Why?

aren't you working!




warchief are not to be messed with, they're simply that strong.

[Amon Amarth]

Without Goblin Warchief it's much more difficult to cast Ringleaders, Matrons etc. It's definitely wrong to play less than 4.

[GoboLord]

I suppose
- Warchief is a typing mistake and should rather be
-1 Warchief.
Otherwise his deck is missing 3 cards.

Still I agree with you three: DON'T. CUT. WARCHIEF.

[Skeggi]

Just a really bad match-up. He played his hand and I got 2 Lackey's out before he Kuldotha Forgemaster'd for a Blightsteel Colossus.
This is why you should run Warren Weirding and Stingscourger over Gempalm Incinerator. As long as Lackey (or Instigator) connects, you have a chance in every match-up.

Out: 4 Aether Vial, Stingscourger, Goblin Chieftain
When losing to Blightsteel Colossus, why do you think siding out Stingscourger is a good plan?

[Sethi]

Hi guys, I have been stalking here for a moment and finally decided to join.

Question : I don't have enough money to get 4 badlands, could I splash black with :

- 4 http://deckbox.org/mtg/Auntie's%20Hovel
- 4 http://deckbox.org/mtg/Blackcleave%20Cliffs
- 4 http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland
- 4 http://deckbox.org/mtg/Rishadan%20Port
- 6 http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mountain

Thank you for your opinion!

[GoboLord]

* Wasteland is a MUST - Rishadan Port isn't. If you want to save money you could probably leave out Rishadan Ports.
* Black Spalsh doesn't necessarily demand 4 Badlands. Depending on the number of Fetchlands and your decklist you coul also run 2 or 3 copies. e.g. You could run 6 fetchlands + 3 Badlands.
* Blackleave Cliff is a bad solution. I'd rather play Blood Crypt if you absolutely don't want to buy Badlands.
* If you want to save money you should consider running a mono-R list. Although B splash provides you with good cards there are very good alternatives in Mono R.

For more info read the following passages of the deckprimer:

3.2 Lands
6.3 Color: Splash vs. Mono

[Ace/Homebrew]

congratz for the finish.
I'd like to read (more) about the first ANT match. Could you write something about it?

Thanks! Sure.

My first ANT match-up was piloted by a different player than the one in the Top 8.
This was my first EVER game against ANT:

Game 1
He won the die roll and spent the first 2 turns cracking fetches and manipulating the top of his library.
I played Mountain, Lackey, go. I dropped something into play turn 2 but it didn't matter cause he went off turn 3.

In:
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Relic of Progenitus
Out:
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
4 Aether Vial

I didn't actually intend to put the 2 Relics in but I had 8 dead cards so I figured I'd see what happened...

Game 2
I kept a hand with Lackey and CotV. Mountain, Lackey, CotV @ 0. Go.
Drew my second Cotv which I set at 1 and that was that.

Game 3
He mulled to 5 which was very fortunate for me. I kept a hand that had a Port, Mox, CotV, Instigator, Mountain and 2 other cards. He fetched for an island and played Brainstorm. I played Mountain, Mox, Instigator, and CotV @ 0. He couldn't find his 2nd land and passed to me. I swung with Instigator and he bounced it with Chain of Vapor. I dropped my port and replayed the Instigator. He finally gets a fetch and uses it for an Underground Sea. He passes and I connect with my Instigator dropping a SGC and Piledriver. I play Relic of Progenitus. EoT he uses Echoing Truth on my tokens.
I make a play mistake here. He never announces which token he was targeting and in a panic I sac one to SGC to get some use out of them. A better play would be to confirm which one he targeted and sac that so the other 2 survive. BUT in hindsight I'd have let him get my tokens because it was more important for me to keep him off black since CotV was keeping him from using Petal and LED.
So like an idiot I spend his next turn in a panic as he taps his sea for black to play Dark Ritual, then he takes it back. Then he thinks for 2 minutes. Then he plays it, then he takes it back. Eventually he uses the Dark Ritual and empties his hand to generate enough mana to play Infernal Tutor to look for Ill-Gotten Gains which he plays. I use my Relic to remove our graveyards and won the following turn.

Admittedly luck had some influence in my winning that game.




Why?

GoboLord was correct, I meant -1 Warchief.
To me the most important part of Goblins is haste. It lets our board explode from nothing to lethal. I would have loved to run all 8 Lords but I didn't want to play 61 cards... Out of curiosity, what card from the CORE could I have cut without hearing something about it? Originally I wanted to cut a Matron but I decided to keep them in case I came up against Sneak + Show. I built the deck the way I did to improve the speed at which I can go lethal so I couldn't cut Piledrivers... Aether Vial, Lackey, Ringleader... Playing with less than 4 of ANY of those is a mistake. I didn't want to cut a Warchief but since I had 4 Chieftains to keep them company I didn't mind that much. Plus 4 of the cards I added that most builds DON'T run can't get the benefit of Warchief's cost reduction. I only ran 4 pieces of removal main and was uncomfortable with that. Technically the 4th Warchief lost his place to a 3rd SGC. I don't know if I will ever run less than 3 of him.
As it turns out, I had no problems playing Ringleaders.



When losing to Blightsteel Colossus, why do you think siding out Stingscourger is a good plan?

Stingscourger is incredible against Emrakul and Dreadnought when they cannot replay them without difficulty. I like it even better as a 4 of to clear the path for turn 1 Lackey in mono-red. However the MUD deck I played against had the following turn 1:

Ancient Tomb into Grim Monolith into Voltaic Key into Metalworker
If I had bounced Blightsteel Colossus he would have either replayed it that turn or the turn after. I needed Pulverize. It was my only out that could set me up for a win.

[Pee-Dee-2]

GoboLord was correct, I meant -1 Warchief.
To me the most important part of Goblins is haste. It lets our board explode from nothing to lethal. I would have loved to run all 8 Lords but I didn't want to play 61 cards... Out of curiosity, what card from the CORE could I have cut without hearing something about it? Originally I wanted to cut a Matron but I decided to keep them in case I came up against Sneak + Show. I built the deck the way I did to improve the speed at which I can go lethal so I couldn't cut Piledrivers... Aether Vial, Lackey, Ringleader... Playing with less than 4 of ANY of those is a mistake. I didn't want to cut a Warchief but since I had 4 Chieftains to keep them company I didn't mind that much. Plus 4 of the cards I added that most builds DON'T run can't get the benefit of Warchief's cost reduction. I only ran 4 pieces of removal main and was uncomfortable with that. Technically the 4th Warchief lost his place to a 3rd SGC. I don't know if I will ever run less than 3 of him.
As it turns out, I had no problems playing Ringleaders.I don't know how SGC > warchief. Warchief is one of the most important Goblins. You oftne need all your mana for casting creatures or using abilities of Ports and Wastelands (which doesn't need mana but tapping itself). With Warchiefs your deck is more powerfull and has more speed.
IMO, 3 SGC are too much. They're looking fine with Lackeys and Instigator, but sometimes in hand, they are useless, because we don't have enough mana.
Never running less than 3 Warchiefs.




However the MUD deck I played against had the following turn 1:

Ancient Tomb into Grim Monolith into Voltaic Key into Metalworker
If I had bounced Blightsteel Colossus he would have either replayed it that turn or the turn after. I needed Pulverize. It was my only out that could set me up for a win.
Stingscourger is not the best Answer, but is an answer because you have an extra turn with it. In the case above, you need removal to eliminate the worker which gives him up to 6 mana a turn later.
But at all, with Stingscourger, you have up to 4 turns to kill him, because he can't play Blightsteel Collossus on turn 3 (he "only" has 10 mana for using).

@all:

Last weekend I was playing Goblins as well (like I did all my last years) at a 65 players tournament by finishing badly 4:2

I was playing the list, Gobolorg published a few sides ago with little changes:

- 1 Warren instigator
+1 Warren Weirding

and I played main this manabase:

4 Badlands
1 Auntie's Hovel
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
4 Wastelands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
5 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox

My Matchups were:

1st Round: MUD, I won 2:0

2nd turn: G/W featuring Stoneforger and Mother of Runes. I lost 0:2 (in the first game I kicked him down to 2 but he has an active Jitte, 2 Mother, Cold-Eyed Selkie and a Scryb Ranger and I could do nothing.

3nd round: G/W (...). Simular built like round 2. Simlar gameplay. I lost this also by having no removal and him haven too much Mother

4th round: Mono-W Lifegain Aggro. It was no classical Quinn. I won 2:0 because he did nothing and although he has about 40 Life in game one...I swarmed him.

5th round New horizon, I won 2:1 and lost one game to a tabernacle and a KotR which was too big.

6th round Team America. I won 2:0 and I thing he resolved about 3 Spells in both games. I only know, he played TA by looking at his lib after resolving Squad in game and turn 2.


All in all. It is difficult with only Incinerator beeing removal against aggro (like G/W). On the other hand it is really strong with Chrome Mox in the opening hand. Stingscourger is a good card anyway and often a timewalk plus 2 damage.

So...thanks for reading.

@GoboLord: you do a great job ;)

[Skeggi]

Technically the 4th Warchief lost his place to a 3rd SGC.
I think running a third Siege-Gang Commander over a Goblin Warchief is a mistake. I would sooner cut a Goblin Chieftain.



I needed Pulverize.
Still, I think siding out Stingscourger in this match-up is wrong. You said he Kuldotha Forgemaster'ed into Blightsteel Colossus. Chances are even MUD can't come up with 12 mana fast enough to hardcast that guy. A Stingscourger can save you in that scenario. Next to that, Blightsteel Colossus is indestructible, so if it's already on the table, your Pulverize does nothing.


Never run less than 4 Warchiefs.
Fixed :wink:

[Humphrey]

Hi guys, I have been stalking here for a moment and finally decided to join.

Question : I don't have enough money to get 4 badlands, could I splash black with :

- 4 http://deckbox.org/mtg/Auntie's%20Hovel
- 4 http://deckbox.org/mtg/Blackcleave%20Cliffs
- 4 http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland
- 4 http://deckbox.org/mtg/Rishadan%20Port
- 6 http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mountain

Thank you for your opinion!

My RB Manabase is

2 Wooded Foothills
2 Auntie's Hovel
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Rishadan Port
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Wasteland

[TossUsToLions]

Goodbye gobbos, we had a nice run in this format...

Torpor Orb
Artifact - 2

Creatures entering the battlefield don’t cause abilities to trigger.


On a serious note, this card could really screw us over. You think that this card will see play enough play in Legacy that we will need to add extra artifact destruction to the board (shattering spree, etc.)? We difinitely have enough options in the arty-destruction category

[GoboLord]

Goodbye gobbos, we had a nice run in this format...

Torpor Orb
Artifact - 2

Creatures entering the battlefield don’t cause abilities to trigger.


On a serious note, this card could really screw us over. You think that this card will see play enough play in Legacy that we will need to add extra artifact destruction to the board (shattering spree, etc.)? We difinitely have enough options in the arty-destruction category

Sure this card is a house against Goblins, but so is Tivadar's Crusade.
If there are 2 tier decks (other than Goblins) that use enough triggered abilities of creatures then I think this card could find it's way into some sideboards.
On the other hand you should not forget that Orb "only" smothers Matron, Ringleader and SGC's triggers not their whole bodies. SGC is still a very frightening card, even with it's CIP-trigger being stifled.

This card is less a "Goodbye Goblins" than a "Hello Dreadstill" and much more an absolute " Farewell Counterbalance!!".

[jrw1985]

Goodbye gobbos, we had a nice run in this format...

Torpor Orb
Artifact - 2

Creatures entering the battlefield don’t cause abilities to trigger.


On a serious note, this card could really screw us over. You think that this card will see play enough play in Legacy that we will need to add extra artifact destruction to the board (shattering spree, etc.)? We difinitely have enough options in the arty-destruction category

I don't see this card getting any play in Legacy. All it shuts down is a couple goblins, a couple mefolk, Regal force, sower of temptation, stoneforge mystic (one of his abilities)... Not very much, really, and it doesn't negate the creature (which can still attack and block). It's application is pretty narrow, it does nothing against other triggered abilities, and it doesn't affect triggers that happen when a creature spell is cast (like Glimpse of Nature's). So, I'm not worried by it.

[bloodbrother]

i wonder how will this card affect the broken turn 1 plays.

Mental Misstep PU
Instant (U)
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Blightsteel Colossus is indestructible, so if it's already on the table, your Pulverize does nothing.

Hah!
Yeah, you're right. I should totally read that card :rolleyes:

And Torpor Orb sucks but I don't see it hosing Goblins...
Most non-goblin players don't really put spots in their board just for us right? It's usually general 'anti-aggro' cards.

[Skeggi]

Torpor Orb
Artifact - 2

Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.


On a serious note, this card could really screw us over. You think that this card will see play enough play in Legacy that we will need to add extra artifact destruction to the board (shattering spree, etc.)? We difinitely have enough options in the arty-destruction category
I agree.

Sure this card is a house against Goblins, but so is Tivadar's Crusade.
This card is less a "Goodbye Goblins" than a "Hello Dreadstill" and much more an absolute " Farewell Counterbalance!!".
Tivadar's Crusade is crap. Its mana cost is too restrictive. Farewell Counterbalance would be a bad thing, because it's a good match-up for us while it keeps Combo at bay.

i wonder how will this card affect the broken turn 1 plays.

Mental Misstep PU
Instant (U)
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.
This will probably be a new legacy staple, so it will find its way into decks, so we will encounter it and on occassion have our turn 0 Aether Vial or Goblin Lackey countered. Remember, people don't have to play blue to play this card. We could play it too.

[Avatara]

This card is less a "Goodbye Goblins" than a "Hello Dreadstill" and much more an absolute " Farewell Counterbalance!!".

It doesn't work on Counterbalance because it triggers on spells being cast and not on creatures entering the battlefield.

[Skeggi]

It doesn't work on Counterbalance because it triggers on spells being cast and not on creatures entering the battlefield.
Ofcourse, that's right. Thank god, Counterbalance lives! Imagine the meta without Counterbalance; Goblins wouldn't stand a chance.

[GoboLord]

@ Avatara: You are right, thanks!
@ Skeggi: You are wrong. What you wrote sounds like Goblins can only beat CB-decks :-D
This is hypothetical of course, but image a meta without Counterbalance.dec. According to you this means that lack of CB increases the number of stormcombo-decks. This in turn would demand decks that can effectively beat storm-combo. Examples of such decks would be Threshold-variants, Merfolk and maybe Dragon Stompy (they get some nice stuff with New Phyrexia btw.). This hypothetical metagame would leave us exactly at the same point where we are now.
btw. I didn't see any succesful CB deck for a while - so we might already have reached the point you are afaid of.

[Skeggi]

There's not one deck as good at beating Storm Combo as CounterTop. The decks you mention are reasonable against Storm, but nowhere near as strong as CounterTop. You've seen it in the Dutch meta, CounterTop is on the decline, Storm Combo is heaving a field day.

For example, the top 8 of the Dutch Masters (as you know) was half Storm Combo:
Doomsday
Dark Horizons
Merfolk
Spiral Tide
Goblins (you)
TES
ANT
Elf-combo

The decks which are a bad match-up for CounterTop: Dark Horizons, Merfolk and Goblins.
The decks which are a bad match-up for Goblins: Doomsday, Spiral Tide, ANT, TES, Elf-Combo. Semi: Goblins

This was not a favourable top8 for Goblins, as you've noticed. If you want to win tournaments, you wouldn't oppose to see more CounterTop in the top8.

[GoboLord]

That's correct:
CB is a postive MU for Gobs.
CB is very good in beating stromcombo (although I find Threshold Variants just as good because they usually have a faster clock and don't give their opponent time to find mana + protection).
And I'd rather like to see CB than stromcombo in the top8 when I want to win a tourney.

Still I find it a bit exagerated to say that "without CB Goblins wouldn't stand a chance".
I just wanted to point out that Goblins has more favorable MUs like: Merfolk, Dragon Stompy and many 50/50 MUs like Landstill and most Thresh Variants.

[ScatmanX]

I don't think that Orb will see much play. It is AWESOME against us, but only against us. If it was that good against two other decks, then it would definitely see play I guess.

Now, Mental Misstep is a card I really didn't like seeing printed.
First, if fits every single deck. Tempo decks will haply play 4 of these, no questions asked. CB decks now have a solid out to Lacky/Vial, even on the draw. This card is better than Trap at hosing non-Belcher combo (it can counter the Duress/Orim Chant from TES/ADN, and High Tide from Spiral Tide, and these were the big weaknes of Trap).

Of course, we can run it, and probably will HAVE to run it. This is our answerer to Lackey/Vial/Seize/Stifle on the draw. This counter half of Zoo's deck. This is good against Combo. The only deck it sucks against is Stax/Stompy decks.
And if everyone start running this, things will get so boring, with Mental Misstep counterwars... I just don't like it...

[Justin]

Well, if mistep proves to be so good that everyone is running it, I guess it wil get banned eventually. I do share your concern, though. It's a mistake to print a free counter with no card disadvantage that any deck can run. Paying two life on turn one is such a small drawback. What were they thinking?

[GoboLord]

What were they thinking?
I think you can leave out the "What".

Actually I'm not very sure if this card is very effective against Goblins.
Let's look at the facts:

* we usually have 8 card in MD with cc1: Lackey and Vial. That leaves us with 52 cards in MD (and 67 cards including SB if you built it well) that are toally uneffected by MM.
* there are already good answers to both of them: Swords to Plowshares, Innocent Blood, Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, blocking creatures, Force of Will, Daze, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker.
* we don't lose the game for not having Lackey and/or Vial. We usually win an interaction of several cards.
* MM costs 2 life (which matters when you are trying to ward off aggro decks)
* MM is not a wincondition - it's another spell that "answers" threats
* to effectively make use of MM against Goblins you need a turn-1 Lackey or Vial AND your opponent need MM on his opening hand. Meaning: MM is a very bad topdeck when you are playing against Goblins.


Most decks will probably either
a) replace their already existing MD-answers with MM (because MM is a very strong and flexible card)
or
b) run it in SB (like we should do)
In fact MM just increases the quality of the answer on our turn-1-plays - this card will most likely not be run in addition to other answers, because there isn't enough room for that many "answersing" cards in most decks.

[Deady]

I think it's a wrong thought to play Misstep only to be able to counter an opposing Misstep. If everybody would think that way, it would mess up the consistency of many decks. Just accept that Countertop decks finally have an answer to Vial/Lackey; there's nothing you can do about that. Mental Misstep will only be great in decks that have big, big troubles with some well known 1cmc cards, otherwise it's wasted space in either the mainboard or sideboard.

Tough up and fight like a Goblin!

[GoboLord]

Just accept that Countertop decks finally have an answer to Vial/Lackey
It's not that CB didn't have answers before MM was printed. Answers to Lackey/Vial or not: the MU wil stay very favorable.


Tough up and fight like a Goblin!
...what do you mean? Dirty, crazy and unfair?:cool:

[jrw1985]

Mental Misstep is going to find a place in Legacy, for certain, but I'm not certain where. It doesn't make much sense as a SB card since the curve is so low that it's almost always applicable. It seems pretty decent against Storm Combo, but not really better than Chalice or Mindbreak Trap. Being able to play it T0 is amazing, yes, but against combo it can only kill a Ritual, Brainstorm, or Duress effect. Hitting any of these is good, but not great, and you pretty much have to throw it at the first 1cc spell they play (since everything else they cast could just be 2 or 0cc). I actually think it could be pretty amazing against Zoo. If you're fortunate enough to draw MM and Lackey you can either blast a blocker or removal spell. The obvious downside is that MM is just not a Goblin, so it's inclusion thins the deck for a relatively narrow effect.

Also- Phyrexia 1 casting cost spells for black, blue and green, but no love for white or red? What gives?

[Vandalize]

It's not that CB didn't have answers before MM was printed. Answers to Lackey/Vial or not: the MU wil stay very favorable.


...what do you mean? Dirty, crazy and unfair?:cool:

I think he meant T1 Warren Instigator (with C.Mox) dropping a SGC + Chieftain on triggers plus a Piledriver for T3.

@Mental Misstep: you'll only find place in decks that die before they can do something (looking at you CB :D). Tempo decks have better answers in form of Stifle/FoW/Daze. And they usually run a lot of spot removal, so perhaps Mental Misstep will only be a good Brainstorm counterspell, lol.

[ScatmanX]

Ok, MAYBE I just overreacted up there. I just messed around with my latest goblin build, and I actually haven't found a spot for MM...

[Amon Amarth]

Mental Misstep is going to find a place in Legacy, for certain, but I'm not certain where. It doesn't make much sense as a SB card since the curve is so low that it's almost always applicable. It seems pretty decent against Storm Combo, but not really better than Chalice or Mindbreak Trap. Being able to play it T0 is amazing, yes, but against combo it can only kill a Ritual, Brainstorm, or Duress effect. Hitting any of these is good, but not great, and you pretty much have to throw it at the first 1cc spell they play (since everything else they cast could just be 2 or 0cc). I actually think it could be pretty amazing against Zoo. If you're fortunate enough to draw MM and Lackey you can either blast a blocker or removal spell. The obvious downside is that MM is just not a Goblin, so it's inclusion thins the deck for a relatively narrow effect.

Also- Phyrexia 1 casting cost spells for black, blue and green, but no love for white or red? What gives?

QFT. As a SB card it's worse than Mindbreak Trap when Storm is going off with no protection. I think I'd still rather play Chalice. MM has more applications but it's not as good as everyone thinks it is.

MM won't really affect any of our matchup percentages. Yes, now they can counter Vial, Lackey reliably. 'Course now they start drawing blanks when we are playing Piledrivers, Warchiefs, and Ringleaders.

[ScatmanX]

Ok, MAYBE I just overreacted up there. I just messed around with my latest goblin build, and I actually haven't found a spot for MM...
Hm, maybe I have found the 4 spots. Really want to try it, just to see if it is worth it or not. I'm really bad when it comes to speculating.

[GoboLord]

Could you share the list? I will test them anyway so it might help me with designing the deck.

[ScatmanX]

I am still testing my list with Brainstorms, so I'll just put MM in place of those.

Lands: 22
1 or 2 Ports
Core: 26
Other: 12
4 Mental Misstep
1 Sharpshooter
3 MWM
4 Gempalm Incinerator

SB
3 Pyroblast
4 CotV
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Knesis
1 Bolt
1 Stingscourger
2 Boartusk Liege

I was actually really liking the Brainstorm, but will test this nonetheless...
Also, I really wanted a Skirk Prospector MD. Maybe in place of a Gempalm, since we can actually counter Nacatls....

Edit: Actually, now that we have some protection against removal, some cards should go up in value, like Wort and Liege MD.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Now, Mental Misstep is a card I really didn't like seeing printed.
First, if fits every single deck. Tempo decks will haply play 4 of these, no questions asked. CB decks now have a solid out to Lacky/Vial, even on the draw. This card is better than Trap at hosing non-Belcher combo (it can counter the Duress/Orim Chant from TES/ADN, and High Tide from Spiral Tide, and these were the big weaknes of Trap).

Of course, we can run it, and probably will HAVE to run it. This is our answerer to Lackey/Vial/Seize/Stifle on the draw. This counter half of Zoo's deck. This is good against Combo. The only deck it sucks against is Stax/Stompy decks.
And if everyone start running this, things will get so boring, with Mental Misstep counterwars... I just don't like it...

I think mental misstep is acually very good for goblins. It "only" counters lackey and vial, it won't help control to consistently beat us but it will help us beat a lot of weak matchups.

[Humphrey]

Well, I might try 4MM Mainboard and 4 Traps SB. Either one doesnt help against combo very much, since it just get discarded and MM main might be useful for countering opp 1drops, stp, MM.

But what I fear the most is that MM is pushing Merfolk over the top again, giving this deck 12 free counters and answers to the most feared threads, like lackey, vial, bolt and lavamancer

[Skeggi]

I think Mental Misstep will be welcomed most in Zoo. Their bad match-ups are CounterTop and Combo and this card is likely to be good against both. For us, as a sideboardcard, there are probably still better cards against Combo specifically. Like Mindbreak Trap, Chalice of the Void, Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt and probably even Earwig Squad.

[codegeass]

Is goblins still good with the current metagame? I have not seen it top 16 in the past 4 SCG 5K events. I am thinking about building it but need to know if it is still doing well in big tourneys.

[practical joke]

I think Mental Misstep will be welcomed most in Zoo. They're bad match-ups are CounterTop and Combo and this card is likely to be good against both. For us, as a sideboardcard, there are probably stil better cards against Combo specifically. Like Mindbreak Trap, Chalice of the Void, Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt and probably even Earwig Squad.

What Skeggi says...mental misstep isn't very good against combo, unless lackey, MM first cantrip (or brainstorm).
Combo can still knock you down with LED, LED, infernal tutor

fun thing is, a fast clock with goblins with either a crypt or MBT is enough most of the times. So don't play this card with combo as a reason, but with combo as a nice coincidence.

[GoboLord]

Is goblins still good with the current metagame? I have not seen it top 16 in the past 4 SCG 5K events. I am thinking about building it but need to know if it is still doing well in big tourneys.

Hey there,

nice to see that you want to pick up Goblins.
Before your start with the deck you should do 3 things:

(1) Read the deckprimer (especially the part "Why play Goblins?" should answer some of your questions).
(2) Realize that Goblins isn't a meta-deck. Goblins have a wide range of cards available and 12 Slots in MD + 15 slots in SB to properly prepare for the current metagame. There is no ONE good Goblin-list. Flexibility defines Goblin's strength to a large part.
(3) The "current meta" is rapidly changing. The dust from Survival's bannng hasn't settled yet AND there will be some good stuff for Legacy with the release of New Phyrexia. So nobody can tell if the current meta is suited for Goblins or not.

[codegeass]

Hey there,

nice to see that you want to pick up Goblins.
Before your start with the deck you should do 3 things:

(1) Read the deckprimer (especially the part "Why play Goblins?" should answer some of your questions).
(2) Realize that Goblins isn't a meta-deck. Goblins have a wide range of cards available and 12 Slots in MD + 15 slots in SB to properly prepare for the current metagame. There is no ONE good Goblin-list. Flexibility defines Goblin's strength to a large part.
(3) The "current meta" is rapidly changing. The dust from Survival's bannng hasn't settled yet AND there will be some good stuff for Legacy with the release of New Phyrexia. So nobody can tell if the current meta is suited for Goblins or not.

Thanks for the advice appreciate it.

[Tacosnape]

What Skeggi says...mental misstep isn't very good against combo, unless lackey, MM first cantrip (or brainstorm).
Combo can still knock you down with LED, LED, infernal tutor

fun thing is, a fast clock with goblins with either a crypt or MBT is enough most of the times. So don't play this card with combo as a reason, but with combo as a nice coincidence.

I think it's better against combo than you think. And while I agree it's not going to win you a combo match by itself, it's a beautiful maindeckable card that when combined with manabase disruption and Lackey stuff, certainly improves your chances. So I mostly agree with the last part of what you said.

My current, in-testing, post-NP Goblins list is as follows:

3 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Aether Vial
4 Mental Misstep

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Stingscourger

SB:
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Spell Pierce
4 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Tormod's Crypt

[Pinoy Goblin]

Guys has anyone tried infiltration lens? Since we always turn sideways often on a turn, equipping this to a lackey or warren instigator will deal us major card advantage either they block or take damage . . . . or putting it on a suicidal piledriver that they are forced to block.:wink:

[Skeggi]

Guys has anyone tried infiltration lens? Since we always turn sideways often on a turn, equipping this to a lackey or warren instigator will deal us major card advantage either they block or take damage . . . . or putting it on a suicidal piledriver that they are forced to block.:wink:
Have you tried it yourself and are recommending it or are you asking us to waste time on testing an obviously awful card? But please, feel free to prove me wrong with test results.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Yeah, I would rather play Goblin Piledriver, Warren Instigator, or any of our other 2 drops than play and equip Infiltration Lens. Skeggi is right. If you tried it out you'd likely wish it was any other card every time you drew it...

Goblins got no love with New Phyrexia...
Although I'm very interested to see how Mental Misstep works out for those testing it

[anotherday]

Kinda off topic, but Ace and Gobo, do you guys alter your cards yourself? In real life or on your computer? J/w. Thanks!

[Ace/Homebrew]

I got inspired by GoboLord's jester Gempalm Incinerator and had black and red sharpies
Then I bought some white acrylic paint and more sharpies =)

[Honorik]

This card - Mental Misstep is the reason i joined the forum. So hello guys.

I am really afraid about the feature of my goblin deck. I just infest in this deck ...and now i see this spell printed and many peoples saying that this will be the end of Goblins as Tier 1 archetype. In general i am not feeling good.

On other hand I think we no have other choice, but to play the damn counter in our builds. I don't know may be it's paranoia but this spell will change the format and our game plan also in my opinion.

We have our mana denial plan, we have the strongest creature synergies, Aether Vial have the best place in our deck, so the free counter may be should find place to.

Just want to hear other opinions that the deck isn't dying with the new spell printed...

[Skeggi]

I think you can relax mate. Goblins has been there since the beginning of the format and will always be a viable deck within the format. It's very likely that Mental Misstep isn't the harbinger of doom for Goblins. In fact, it's also very good against alot of other decks. Perhaps we need to play the card ourselves, because it's too good against other decks, but I suspect even this is not the case. Just chill and wait for results. If you're too paranoid you can always try Tacosnape's list (post #546) :wink:

[Vandalize]

This card - Mental Misstep is the reason i joined the forum. So hello guys.

I am really afraid about the feature of my goblin deck. I just infest in this deck ...and now i see this spell printed and many peoples saying that this will be the end of Goblins as Tier 1 archetype. In general i am not feeling good.

On other hand I think we no have other choice, but to play the damn counter in our builds. I don't know may be it's paranoia but this spell will change the format and our game plan also in my opinion.

We have our mana denial plan, we have the strongest creature synergies, Aether Vial have the best place in our deck, so the free counter may be should find place to.

Just want to hear other opinions that the deck isn't dying with the new spell printed...

Who the hell said that? Goblins have been Tier 1 forever, and won't fall for a single card that MIGHT screw our turn 1. Goblin isn't near to dead if we get our 1st turn Lackey/Vial countered by this new-fashion counterspell. We have access to the most broken triggered abilities and powerful ETB effects as well. I'd be really glad if people start running this piece of crap instead of good removal.

I don't even know why you pointed out Goblins as a good target for Mental Misstep, our manacurve isn't low as other decks like Zoo and Storm. It'll just be another spot for decks that needs counterspells to survive until they can do something.

Just another point for you guys testing Mental Misstep: Don't use it against Zoo and Burn. They'll just laugh at your face when you lose 2 life to counter anything.

[Skeggi]

Just another point for you guys testing Mental Misstep: Don't use it against Zoo and Burn. They'll just laugh at your face when you lose 2 life to counter anything.
If they laugh at me for countering Grim Lavamancer, let them laugh. Also, countering a Wild Nacatl seems like a good play, or Path to Exile on a connecting Goblin Lackey.

[GoboLord]

Kinda off topic, but Ace and Gobo, do you guys alter your cards yourself? In real life or on your computer? J/w. Thanks!

I make the conceptual idea for the alternation on my computer and print it.
My girlfriend has the drawing skills to put my ideas on the cards. The Jesterpalm Incinerator was her idea though and the first card she altered for me.

@ Skeggi:
Correct. I'd gladly pay 2 life to counter any beast Zoo spits out, cause that will most likely save me more than 2 lifepoints and several Goblins.

[Amon Amarth]

This card - Mental Misstep is the reason i joined the forum. So hello guys.

I am really afraid about the feature of my goblin deck. I just infest in this deck ...and now i see this spell printed and many peoples saying that this will be the end of Goblins as Tier 1 archetype. In general i am not feeling good.

On other hand I think we no have other choice, but to play the damn counter in our builds. I don't know may be it's paranoia but this spell will change the format and our game plan also in my opinion.

We have our mana denial plan, we have the strongest creature synergies, Aether Vial have the best place in our deck, so the free counter may be should find place to.

Just want to hear other opinions that the deck isn't dying with the new spell printed...


It's really not as bad as you'd think. MM only attacks us from one angle. And it's pretty worthless past turn 3. And they have to have it in hand when we play Vial or Lackey. Otherwise its a blank. If you want to be worried about something you can probably be worried about the increase in Engineered Plagues due to the popularity, and inexpensiveness of Elves. That card is a bitch to deal with.

[jrw1985]

I've goldfished a few games with Mental Misstep in the MD and guess what? It seems pretty good. It's actually pretty easy to make room for MM in the MD. I just cut a few Gempalms and utility goblins. It turns out drawing an opening seven with a Lackey and MM is pretty, um, mental.

[jrw1985]

Mental Misstep changes the game, but not to the point where goblins is unplayable.

Let's examine how our MUs will change when facing an archetypical deck which has included Mental Misstep in its maindeck.
(Let's also assume the Goblins deck is ALSO running 4 MM main)-

Merfolk
They gain 4 more free counterspells, but they suffer a clear drawback. Merfolk will lose either threat density or Standstill drawing power to up their counterspell count, OR they need to play MM instead of Daze. MM basically increases their chance of stopping a Lackey t1 on the draw. However, since Goblins now has access to MM it evens out the advantage. Goblins actually now has answers to Merfolk's Vials, but MM does help Merfolk more in this MU.

Zoo
They gain nothing from MM (against gobbos). They already had a billion ways to kill a T1 lackey or blow up a vial before it goes online. MM only allows them to do it more mana efficiently. Goblins gains protection from removal spells and blockers. MM probably helps Goblins more here.

Storm combo
I don't know if storm combos will run any Mentals MD, but if they did they'd probably side them out G2 against gobbos. They don't want to interact with us anyway. They just want to kill us. Mental doesn't help them do that. Goblins gets more help in this match from Mental.

Big combo
By big combo I mean Sneaky Tell, Shared Fate, Grindstone, or any deck that wins off of a 2 card combo. MM is GREAT for these decks. It allows them more free interactions without card or tempo disadvantage. They definitely get more from MM in this MU than Goblins does, if only becuase they can use MM to disrupt our game winners while we can only use it against their support cards (Brainstorm, MM, whatever). There will be times though that Gobbos can use MM on a Grindstone or Welder or something of that nature.

Elves
They can now stop Lackey. Goblins can now stop Glimpse of Nature. It's a push.

Countertop- CT will throw this around pretty well. It will allow them to set up CounterTop T2 without losing card advantage and stopping our 1drop. Seems pretty good. MM also allows us to stop StP and Top. CT gains the most, but goblins now has access to some powerful interactions.

Affinity
I have no idea... Goblins could stop Springleaf Drum or Glimpse or whatever weird shit they're playing these days. Affinity might be the deck least affected by MM.

Dredge
I'm no expert on Dredge, but I doubt this deck will play MM in the MD. As it stands the only interactive Dredge card is Cabal Therapy which has great synergy with the deck. So I doubt dredge will have much use or room for MM, while goblins can use MM to blast Imps, Tribes, Breaktrough for 0, Careful Study. Goblins gains a ton of ways to interact with Dredge. Goblins gains much more from MM in this MU.



What Wizards has really done by printing MM is make the whole Legacy format more interactive across the board. I don't think any deck really blows up and becomes overpowered or gets stomped out of the format with this card. Merfolk is the only deck that really worries me. They now have SO MANY ANSWERS. I don't think Goblins or Zoo is getting run out of town because of this card. I think they actually get much more interactive (which can only help their game).

[Nessaja]

I think you forget to factor in the repercussions on a synergistic deck like Goblins packing another 4 non-goblins spells. Ringleader becomes worse when you only draw 1 or 2 spells of it instead of 2-3. Goblins doesn't like diluting their goblins count, and it's a tight deck right now. I really don't see how you can incorperate this card maindeck and claim that the strength of the deck doesn't go down and your "goldfishes" certainly do no disprove that. It's pure statistics.

Like in your Zoo example "it gives protection from STP" what the heck, as if Goblins mind a 1vs1 trade in the zoo matchup. If Goblins can make 1v1 trades the entire match they will win the match, that's your goal!

If Merfolk takes out Spell Pierce for Mental Misstep they've taken out 4 cards that only touched vial when on the play and replaced it by four cards that touch Vial and Lackey even on the draw, that's a pretty huge difference without losing any synergy power the deck already has.

[kinda]

Lackey+misstep openers on the play are amazing. Either they have the misstep and you trade them, you hit their one drop with misstep and connect, or they have the force/snuff out and are down on card advantage or 4 life.

Edit: It also hits opposing missteps, and of course over 1/3rd of the format.

[Tacosnape]

It's also worth noting that the biggest impact Mental Misstep has for Goblins isn't that Goblins can play it or Goblins can have it played against it. It's that this card's heavy presence is going to scare people away from a lot of the decks Goblins doesn't want to see.

Players less committed to their combo will start fading away from decks like ANT, High Tide, etc. Don't misread. I'm not claiming these decks aren't viable or even strong now. But they are a hair worse for this card's existence. And for the large sect of Legacy players who constantly waffle between decks (Either out of boredom or because they're trying to always have the best deck), there's going to be a jump ship effect away from combo. And the ones that still play combo, your chances will at least get better.

And as much as losing a Lackey or Vial to Mental Misstep will suck, Goblins doesn't run all that many 1-drops. So on the whole, I think this card helps Goblins more than it hurts it.

[Skeggi]

And as much as losing a Lackey or Vial to Mental Misstep will suck, Goblins doesn't run all that many 1-drops. So on the whole, I think this card helps Goblins more than it hurts it.
Very likely to be true, however everything said about Mental Misstep's impact on the format is still just speculation. We really have to wait and see what it does to fully understand its impact. If people have already made an analysis of how the meta 'probably' would be after Mental Misstep, and start taking these speculations into account when building a deck and playing a tournament, you probably have a big disappointment coming.

[GoboLord]

It's also worth noting that the biggest impact Mental Misstep has for Goblins isn't that Goblins can play it or Goblins can have it played against it. It's that this card's heavy presence is going to scare people away from a lot of the decks Goblins doesn't want to see.

Players less committed to their combo will start fading away from decks like ANT, High Tide, etc. Don't misread. I'm not claiming these decks aren't viable or even strong now. But they are a hair worse for this card's existence. And for the large sect of Legacy players who constantly waffle between decks (Either out of boredom or because they're trying to always have the best deck), there's going to be a jump ship effect away from combo. And the ones that still play combo, your chances will at least get better.

And as much as losing a Lackey or Vial to Mental Misstep will suck, Goblins doesn't run all that many 1-drops. So on the whole, I think this card helps Goblins more than it hurts it.
I absolutely agree!
Please, everyone read his words carefully and keep them in mind: Mental Misstep is our friend!



Very likely to be true, however everything said about Mental Misstep's impact on the format is still just speculation. We really have to wait and see what it does to fully understand its impact. If people have already made an analysis of how the meta 'probably' would be after Mental Misstep, and start taking these speculations into account when building a deck and playing a tournament, you probably have a big disappointment coming.
I absolutely agree!
Please, everyone read his words carefully and keep them in mind: Mental Misstep is our friend!

[Tacosnape]

Very likely to be true, however everything said about Mental Misstep's impact on the format is still just speculation. We really have to wait and see what it does to fully understand its impact. If people have already made an analysis of how the meta 'probably' would be after Mental Misstep, and start taking these speculations into account when building a deck and playing a tournament, you probably have a big disappointment coming.

While I do agree it's hard to accurately predict a metagame expected to wildly shift, it's not unreasonable to expect a few results. Mental Misstep is a mild nuisance for combo. Chalice-y artifact decks aren't hit by MM, and should like the MM filled meta, and they do fairly well against combo. Decks like Bant and Merfolk will thrive with this, and they do well against combo. Therefore I don't think it's a wild stretch to just go out on a limb and say that combo is going to be weaker now than it has been recently, which arguably was stronger than ever before.

What's hard to see is what exactly is going to emerge as the first top deck after this card comes out, then what will arise to beat it, and so forth.

[Vandalize]

Mental Misstep is NOT a good main deck card for Goblins. It's very situational. You need to have both Lackey/Vial and this goddamned counterspell in your opening hand.

I'd gladly replace them with cards that actually can DO SOMETHING instead of a POSSIBILITY OF COUNTERSPELL. Playing 4-of this new card is just giving away your strategy/synergy to try something that's pure fashion.

You guys are talking about this card like it'd save Goblins for life. What if your lackey just face a good and old Force of Will? Where's the mighty mental misstep now?

[kinda]

Mental Misstep is NOT a good main deck card for Goblins. It's very situational. You need to have both Lackey/Vial and this goddamned counterspell in your opening hand.

I'd gladly replace them with cards that actually can DO SOMETHING instead of a POSSIBILITY OF COUNTERSPELL. Playing 4-of this new card is just giving away your strategy/synergy to try something that's pure fashion.

You guys are talking about this card like it'd save Goblins for life. What if your lackey just face a good and old Force of Will? Where's the mighty mental misstep now?

Mental misstep is good when it's the only card in your hand. Playing 4 non vial, non land, goblins has been done plenty. It's great in your opener if you have a lackey. It's something that would be good to board in against...dredge-all of their important spells are 1 drops, lands-manabond/exploration/gamble are problem cards, zoo-helps get to the mid game which is where goblins needs to be, tendrils/high tide-can buy a turn/it's definately better than having 4 more goblins at least, affinity-similar to zoo/likely to slow them down, and blue midrange/tempo-vial is great against these decks but now that they will likely be running this card we need to run it to too. Mental misstep is the best way to deal with mental misstep.

Edit: The only matchup where it seems poor to me is in the mirror...and even then it's great in your opener. Plus you can side it out.

[jrw1985]

I think you forget to factor in the repercussions on a synergistic deck like Goblins packing another 4 non-goblins spells. Ringleader becomes worse when you only draw 1 or 2 spells of it instead of 2-3. Goblins doesn't like diluting their goblins count, and it's a tight deck right now. I really don't see how you can incorperate this card maindeck and claim that the strength of the deck doesn't go down and your "goldfishes" certainly do no disprove that. It's pure statistics.

You are absolutely right. Goblins doesn't like diluting its Goblin count. Ringleaders are better hitting 2-3.
However, with 4 MM in the main goblins suddenly has a world of interactions available to it that it never had before. We can protect Lackey from removal which is absolutely HUGE! Its a game changer! Goblins has never in the history of the deck had access to protection for its T1 Lackey. A 1 land hand with a Lackey AND MM becomes Godlike. And Ringleader still gets 2 goblins on average. I've had many a game where I'm cycling Gempalms from my hand without dealing damage because I just need to get to a card I can play. having a MM instead of Gempalm in those scenarios would be incredible.


Like in your Zoo example "it gives protection from STP" what the heck, as if Goblins mind a 1vs1 trade in the zoo matchup. If Goblins can make 1v1 trades the entire match they will win the match, that's your goal!

1 for 1 trades absolutely wins the Zoo match. But how much better does the match become when the 1 for 1 is MM on Bolt instead of Bolt on Lackey?


If Merfolk takes out Spell Pierce for Mental Misstep they've taken out 4 cards that only touched vial when on the play and replaced it by four cards that touch Vial and Lackey even on the draw, that's a pretty huge difference without losing any synergy power the deck already has.

Yeah, Merfolk is gonna love this card.

Another point- I usually wind up siding out Goblins for non-goblins G2/3. This makes me feel that a few less Gemapalms or utility gobbos won't be missed in the MD. Post-board you side out Goblins for Non-Goblins that have significant interactions. MM has significant interactions against every deck in the format (except AggroLoam maybe). So why not dilute the MD of Goblins to increase the number of significant interactions you can have across the metagame?

I'm certainly looking forward to testing Gobbos with a playset of MM in it.

[frenchy-man]

I think you forget to factor in the repercussions on a synergistic deck like Goblins packing another 4 non-goblins spells. Ringleader becomes worse when you only draw 1 or 2 spells of it instead of 2-3. Goblins doesn't like diluting their goblins count, and it's a tight deck right now. I really don't see how you can incorperate this card maindeck and claim that the strength of the deck doesn't go down and your "goldfishes" certainly do no disprove that. It's pure statistics.

Like in your Zoo example "it gives protection from STP" what the heck, as if Goblins mind a 1vs1 trade in the zoo matchup. If Goblins can make 1v1 trades the entire match they will win the match, that's your goal!

If Merfolk takes out Spell Pierce for Mental Misstep they've taken out 4 cards that only touched vial when on the play and replaced it by four cards that touch Vial and Lackey even on the draw, that's a pretty huge difference without losing any synergy power the deck already has.

+1.

MM seriously hurts gob. The only reason why gob was still a dtb was the high density of merfolks. Here MM is the nuts for merfolks, which will have basically 8 counters for your 8 game breakers against them (vial and especially lackey). Btw, merfolk can play daze, fow, MM and standstill without losing its consistency. Just by playing 20 spells 20 creatures 20 lands.
Therefore it will be harder for gob to win against merfolk. Do not make me say what I did not say, it will still be a good MU, but much more balanced, something like 60/40 (I am talking about 2 lists that are not optimised for this MU).
I see no more reasons to play gobs instead of zoo nowadays...

[Honorik]

On the play for goblins the merfolk deck can stop Lackey or Vial only with Fow or Mental Misstep. If we have Mental Misstep to in our hand i don't see the difference. Our match up vs merfolks will be always good - we have piledrivers, we have ports and wasteland for their Mutavaults, we have haste, we have better card advantage.

[Avatara]

And Yay... Merfolk will have 8 spells (daze&MM) that are useless against us past the first few turns. Should blue become super dominating I'll put a Vexing Shusher or two in the 75. Oh crap you suddenly have 12 useless spells in your deck... sorry!

The card (MM) simply gives us so many ways to interact in ways we could before... counter enchantments like Elephant grass, discard, removal, artifacts, mana sources, cheap discard outlets and quick or irritating creatures, tutors and go on. I think this more than justifies the fact that we'll be running 3-4 less Goblins. In the worst case scenario we wont run MM but the whole meta game will shift away from 1 CC which is clearly in our advantage.

[Mantis]

+1. MM seriously hurts gob. The only reason why gob was still a dtb was the high density of merfolks. Here MM is the nuts for merfolks, which will have basically 8 counters for your 8 game breakers against them (vial and especially lackey). Btw, merfolk can play daze, fow, MM and standstill without losing its consistency. Just by playing 20 spells 20 creatures 20 lands.
Therefore it will be harder for gob to win against merfolk. Do not make me say what I did not say, it will still be a good MU, but much more balanced, something like 60/40 (I am talking about 2 lists that are not optimised for this MU).
I see no more reasons to play gobs instead of zoo nowadays...
So you are saying: Goblins is only DTB because of Merfolk. Mental Misstep will cause more Merfolk and Merfolk is still a good matchup. So far, I agree. The logical conclusion would now be to say that when more players play the deck that is our best matchup, we should keep playing Goblins. Instead you state that there is no reason to stay with Goblins. Whaaaat?

My take on MM:
I will play 4 copies. It's great to have a way to interact with combo and it will be a major improvement to the Zoo matchup because it's easier to drag the game to the longgame.
I don't really care that MM counters Lackey since Lackey doesn't connect that often anyway. I do care that MM hits Vial, this will hurt our tempo matchups. To at least have a decent game against tempo, I think mono red is the only way to go. If you do decide to keep some fetchlands, then consider maindecking a Volcanic Island. If Chalice decks see more play than we should consider some artifact destruction.

I think MM will be a good thing for Goblins, but I might be entirely wrong. Only time will provide us a definite answer.

[frenchy-man]

MM is bad in gobs. As someone already said, you need a high density of goblins in order to achieve your main strategy. So yes, MM is cool against STPs & cie. But only cool. The card that you will cut to play it are better thant MM.
That being said, let see what it brings to our opponents, especially merfolks.
So yes, merfolk has a bad MU vs gob. But this new card improves it and therefore they get a better MU. So, if there are more merfolks, one could think that gob could come back. But the fact is that zoo is also very good versus merfolk and destroy gob too. If merfolk is more played, it is not gobs but zoo that will be massively played.

[Skeggi]

MM is bad in gobs.
How can you state assumptions about MM in Goblins as a fact, while there simply hasn't been enough time to fully test it yet? Don't you want to be taken seriously? Next to the fact that your logic is flawed as Mantis pointed out, you're really missing the plank here mate.

[GoboLord]

But the fact is that zoo is also very good versus merfolk and destroy gob too. If merfolk is more played, it is not gobs but zoo that will be massively played.

* Wild Nacatl
* Grim Lavamancer
* Goblin Guide
* Kird Ape
* Steppe Lynx
* Noble Hierarch
* Green Sun's Zenith
* Chain Lightning
* Lightning Bolt
* Swords to Plowshares
* Path to Eile

... Those cards have 2 thing in common: they are frequently seen in Zoo-decks and they all have cc1. If you really expect MM to be played frequently don't you think Zoo will suffer more than Goblins?
Plus, I think your view on the Zoo/Gobs-MU is too much in black-and-white. We have designed decklists that can reliably beat Zoo (to the extend that the MU totally turns into a positive one).

[Neo337]

I agree that the zoo matchup is not that bad. I can sometimes grind out a game one with tons of card advantage, and then game 2 or 3 is easy when you board perish. I blew a guy out with it, he had goyf, KotR, nactal, and teeg, and just scooped.

[Vandalize]

That guy is just trash talking. He never played a good Goblin pilot to see how scary is a connecting Lackey/Warren Instigator and Piledriver going nuts.

Those guys are thinking that if a MM hits my Lackey I'll just say: "OMG!!!!! YOU COUNTERED MY LACKEY, GG, I SCOOP, I'LL JUST DROP OUT AND CRY FOREVER."

[ScatmanX]

That guy is clearly trolling.

I tested some MM this weekend, but just against an BG deck, with 7 MD 1cc cards.
Veredict: awesome. Disrupting his gameplan or countering a removal, on whichever state of the game, was awesome.
I certainly dig it.

[Nelis]

MM is bad in gobs. As someone already said, you need a high density of goblins in order to achieve your main strategy.

And yet, when sideboarding we don't mind putting in non-goblins if it helps us. I think that's you have very shortsighted view.

[frenchy-man]

Ok sorry I apologise for my trolling. MM is so strong in gob, I should have seen that this non-gob card would improve the deck.
Clearly, giving the opponent free answers to turn one lackey or vial is a good thing for the deck.

By the way, yes the whole deck zoo is affected by MM, but I don't see why it is a disaster. Zoo is also affected by STP, but this is not a reason not to play zoo.
Gob is extremely slow if it does not get lackey or vial online. Yes I know there is mana denial. But it is the most efficient when you cheat with your mana thanks to vial and lackey. Losing lackey or vial decrease the mana denial efficiency.

I give arguments against MM. I don't see your answers to mine excepted that I am trolling. Relax, I just want to debate so try to develop an argumentation.

Apologise me if I am not totally clear but I do my best to speak English without too many mistakes... (and feel free to correct my mistakes ;)).

Peace

[Vandalize]

Ok sorry I apologise for my trolling. MM is so strong in gob, I should have seen that this non-gob card would improve the deck.
Clearly, giving the opponent free answers to turn one lackey or vial is a good thing for the deck.

By the way, yes the whole deck zoo is affected by MM, but I don't see why it is a disaster. Zoo is also affected by STP, but this is not a reason not to play zoo.
Gob is extremely slow if it does not get lackey or vial online. Yes I know there is mana denial. But it is the most efficient when you cheat with your mana thanks to vial and lackey. Losing lackey or vial decrease the mana denial efficiency.

I give arguments against MM. I don't see your answers to mine excepted that I am trolling. Relax, I just want to debate so try to develop an argumentation.

Apologise me if I am not totally clear but I do my best to speak English without too many mistakes... (and feel free to correct my mistakes ;)).

Peace

We've always had 1000 answers to Vial and Lackey. MM will be just another one. Goblins can deal with it, really.

Just try some Warren Instigators and you'll see how broken he can be. And don't trash talk about speed. Goblins isn't Landstill.

[GoboLord]

Hey guys,

on a different topic: Has anyone testresults with Murderous Redcap? It's not that I find it particularily strong - I just want to add it to the "Untested and bad cards"-paragraph.

//EDIT: Happy Easter!

[Vandalize]

Hey guys,

on a different topic: Has anyone testresults with Murderous Redcap? It's not that I find it particularily strong - I just want to add it to the "Untested and bad cards"-paragraph.

//EDIT: Happy Easter!

I tried it back in Vengevival times, and it was bad. His RR cost was just a lot. Sharpshooter did a better job cleaning Hierachs and Birds.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Ok sorry I apologise for my trolling. MM is so strong in gob, I should have seen that this non-gob card would improve the deck.
Clearly, giving the opponent free answers to turn one lackey or vial is a good thing for the deck.

By the way, yes the whole deck zoo is affected by MM, but I don't see why it is a disaster. Zoo is also affected by STP, but this is not a reason not to play zoo.
Gob is extremely slow if it does not get lackey or vial online. Yes I know there is mana denial. But it is the most efficient when you cheat with your mana thanks to vial and lackey. Losing lackey or vial decrease the mana denial efficiency.

I give arguments against MM. I don't see your answers to mine excepted that I am trolling. Relax, I just want to debate so try to develop an argumentation.

Apologise me if I am not totally clear but I do my best to speak English without too many mistakes... (and feel free to correct my mistakes ;)).

Peace

What makes MM good for us against zoo is not, that it handles it's creatures (except for lavamancer, can be pretty much auto loose). It's good because it keeps our warchiefs and piledrivers in play to overrun them.
Zoo can only win through tempo. And MM+1cc drop is just way superior to StoP in regard of tempo.
Goblins being slow without Vial or lackey is just not true. Sure, the 1 turn drop helps us a lot, but most of my games the lackey won't connect anyway. Instigator and warchief provide extreme accelleration as well. If you trade a 3 cc card for a StoP it decelerates us though (biggest problem of goblins), and this is exactly why MM is so very good for this deck.

[Gun4Hire]

Hey does anyone know how I could find out Jim Davis's goblin deck list from the SCG legacy open Boston?

[bloodbrother]

Hey does anyone know how I could find out Jim Davis's goblin deck list from the SCG legacy open Boston?

google, it's our friend. :smile:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=Jim+Davis%27s+goblin+deck+list+from+the+SCG+legacy+open+Boston

[ScatmanX]

google, it's our friend. :smile:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=Jim+Davis%27s+goblin+deck+list+from+the+SCG+legacy+open+Boston
He ment for the SCG open that happened yesterday.
All the lists I found were the one he played on Nov 7 2010.
I'd like to see the latest too...

[Gun4Hire]

Jim Davis has been called the goblin master by many and he advised Steve Sadin to play the green splash in columbus and Jim ran the same deck list in Nov to get 4th place at a tourney. And from yesterdays featured match he ran Taiga's so he splashe green again. So i just wanted to see what he's running and I would like to ask him why he seems to choose to run green over black splash and get some insight on the deck.

[bakofried]

Here's the list that top16'ed, but it wasn't Jim Davis piloting it.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38047

[dethangel666]

Hi does anyone have a good list for mono red goblins?

[Vandalize]

Hi does anyone have a good list for mono red goblins?

Hmm, I'd give these a try:

Aggressive List:

Lands [22]
16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Chrome Mox

Core [26]
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 AEther Vial
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Removal [4]
3 Stingscourger
1 Gempalm Incinerator

Others [8]
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain

Sideboard [15]

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void/Mindbreak Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Null Rod
1 Ravenous Trap
1 TukTuk Scrapper
1 Pithing Needle/Meltdown/Shatterstorm/Pulverize

Controlish List:

Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
15 Mountain

Core [26]

...

Others [11]

4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger/Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Sideboard [15]

4 Pyrokinesis
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Tinkerer/Stingscourger
1 TukTuk Scrapper
2 Pithing Needle/Null Rod/Anarchy/Red Elemental Blast

That'd be the basic, probably, just adapt to your metagame.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Hi does anyone have a good list for mono red goblins?

See "5. Sample decklists" in the Goblin Primer (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-%5BDTB%5D-Vial-Goblins-2-0&p=520287&viewfull=1#post520287).
I actually just read through that again for giggles. It's really well done. Good job GoboLord and other contributors.

The list Vandalize mentioned is what most mono-red posters are running give or take the Lightning Bolts.
More traditional lists will run 4 Rishadan Ports instead of the 2 Chrome Moxen and 2 Mountains.
Warren Instigator and Goblin Chieftain are newer inclusions and the reason for the lack of Rishadan Ports. Just a few months ago I used 4 Gempalm Incinerator and 4 Stingscourger and got a great feel for the deck before modifying it to the 'faster' version.

[Nelis]

It's good because it keeps our warchiefs and piledrivers in play to overrun them.

Yeah this. Especially to keep those Warchiefs alive. And not only in the zoo matchup but also others.

[Avatara]

Yeah this. Especially to keep those Warchiefs alive. And not only in the zoo matchup but also others. I second that!

[bloodbrother]

is wort, boggart auntie more viable now in the maindeck of the controllish build of goblins now that we have access to protection? also is the blue splash that used to be a joke viable now?

something like this:

4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Standstill

or Rub 8 Lord Goblins (8 haste lords and 8 pump lords) now viable?

with:
4 Warchief
4 Chieftain
4 Mad Auntie - this + counterspells gives the lords resiliency to removal

anyway, i'm just posting what i'm thinking at the moment so i have no concrete deck in mind yet. just wanted to start a discussion.

[ScatmanX]

is wort, boggart auntie more viable now in the maindeck of the controllish build of goblins now that we have access to protection? also is the blue splash that used to be a joke viable now?

something like this:

4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Standstill

or Rub 8 Lord Goblins (8 haste lords and 8 pump lords) now viable?

with:
4 Warchief
4 Chieftain
4 Mad Auntie - this + counterspells gives the lords resiliency to removal

anyway, i'm just posting what i'm thinking at the moment so i have no concrete deck in mind yet. just wanted to start a discussion.
I really want to play a 1off Wort now, and maybe even a Kiki.
I don't think the lord version is viable tough, but who knows? (It'd would have to give up on Ringleader, and maybe Piledriver, which kind of sucks...)

[Vandalize]

is wort, boggart auntie more viable now in the maindeck of the controllish build of goblins now that we have access to protection? also is the blue splash that used to be a joke viable now?

something like this:

4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Standstill

or Rub 8 Lord Goblins (8 haste lords and 8 pump lords) now viable?

with:
4 Warchief
4 Chieftain
4 Mad Auntie - this + counterspells gives the lords resiliency to removal

anyway, i'm just posting what i'm thinking at the moment so i have no concrete deck in mind yet. just wanted to start a discussion.

Why are you trying to make Goblins look like Merfolk? We don't need that many lords, we have better creatures. Piledriver and Siege-Gang Commander are big and we usually establish the board easier. Merfolk do run a lot of Lord effects because they don't have access to removal (usually), and have Islandwalk (which is the best reason to play merfolk, probably). Pherhaps, you'll have cut card advantage to run more Lords, which I think is wrong. But test it, lets see how it does.

[GoboLord]

Although I don't think the Lord-attempt will be successful ( I myself piloted a 12-Lord List on 2 tourneys) I would give countermagic a try. We don't necessarily have to combine it with another strange idea but just stick to what we have:

//Lands [22] //Core [26] + //Countermagic [12]

Because of a lack of Blue cards we MUST cut Core.cards when trying to integrate counters (especially FoW).
Here's a list I've been thinking of:

//Lands [22]
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
8 R-Fetches (non-U)
2 Volcanic Island
5 Mountain

//Core [22]
- 4 Ringleader

//Others [16]
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Fire//Ice (removal that can be pitched into FoW)

Without Force of Will we can be even closer to our regular list:

//Lands [22]
(same)

//Core [26]
...

//Others [12]
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze

3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

There is also interesting SB-material in U:

* Hibernation
* Echoing Truth
* Stifle

[jtwilkins]

Although I don't think the Lord-attempt will be successful ( I myself piloted a 12-Lord List on 2 tourneys) I would give countermagic a try. We don't necessarily have to combine it with another strange idea but just stick to what we have:

//Lands [22] //Core [26] + //Countermagic [12]

Because of a lack of Blue cards we MUST cut Core.cards when trying to integrate counters (especially FoW).
Here's a list I've been thinking of:


//Core [22]
- 4 Ringleader


Even if Ringleader nets 1 card he is still huge. No way I would cut ringleader. A 2/2 haste that draws you 1-4 goblins. That is what makes goblins viable.

[ScatmanX]

@Gobbo: Your list (the 1st one. Daze is actually pretty bad by itself here) looks more promising than mine (that I tested today).

I think you could play even with 21 lands here, since FoW and Misstep and Daze actually protect our Lackey/Vial better than in other builds. Merfolk run 13 islands, 4 waste 4 muta. We could run 8 Fetches, 3 Volcs, 4 Mountains, 4 Waste, 2 Port/muta.
If you cut a Siege-Gang too, you get 2 slots, in which you should play, imo, at least 1 Gempalm.

When I tested today, FoW was actually an weird card. In Merfolk, it's good because they can remove a small creature from their hand, to protect a bigger one on the battlefield, remove a standstill when the situation is unfavorable, or remove another counter. In goblins, the only cards we would be able to remove for it are other counterspells and Fire/Ice(only 4). That sounds like counter productive. Then again, FoW can counter any spell, while the other 8 are situational. Nonetheless, I do think that, for our deck (that weird version of it), there should be a better card, while FoW comes in from the SB against combo and some other decks that have must answerer threats.

FoW is actually quite bad against a variety of deck. SB is where it belong here. This way, we can maintain a high goblin count MD, to play with Ringleader, and bring 10+ blue cards from the SB, when we want to take him out (like against combo, where he's not that useful).

Hm, maybe I'll try a list...

EDIT:

//Lands [21]
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
8 R-Fetches (non-U)
3 Volcanic Island
4 Mountain

//Core [26]

//Others 1 (non goblins) [6]
4 Mental Misstep
2 Daze

//Others 2 (goblins) [7]
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
3 Mogg Warmarchall

(total: 29 goblins)

SB:
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
2 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Goblin cards (1 shooter, 2 Liege… something against agroo here)

This way, post board we have 18 U cards for then we can afford removing something from our core. And the MD continues to be stable. I’d like to try this…

[Ace/Homebrew]

I would imagine FoW would be awkward to play in a non-blue deck just as ScatmanX described it.



That sounds like counter productive.


Get it? =)

You're pitching a counter to play a counter. And FoW is almost unplayable if you have to hard cast it. A mid/late game top-deck and you'd be wanting anything else.
If you have to splash blue I think GoboLords list looks good but I'd replace the Fire//Ice with Brainstorm. Or as mentioned above, put FoW in the sideboard and break it out against the matches you need it turn 0. Brainstorm seems good... especially in a build with fetchlands.
ScatmanX spoke well of it in post 538 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-%5BDTB%5D-Vial-Goblins-2-0&p=539955&viewfull=1#post539955) even as he was taking it out to test MM.

If you want to up the blue count without diluting goblins, how about Goblin Flectomancer?

And isn't Stifle a valid card against most decks? Couldn't this be main?

[Vandalize]

Are you having sucess with those blue splashs? For me it's just a bad testing for "new fashioned" cards. I don't like Mental Misstep for this deck, and the "splash" you're forcing to make it more viable. Goblins is a very tight decklist with a straight strategy (most of time). I don't think those decklists are superior to mono-red and black-splash in any kind of way.

[FoxBlade]

I'd almost rather run spell snare over daze and have FOW for everything else.

I think I'll try building a deck and testing it out later...

[Ace/Homebrew]

I agree with Vandalize. Blue the way it's being described seems like such a color commitment just to make FoW viable...

Look at Rb and Rg decklists. The splash adds *maybe* 4 off color cards to the main deck (usually just 2 Warren Wierding for black and none for green). Splash in Goblins is usually just to open our sideboard hate up to stronger or more fitting cards.

I'm also being influenced here by my lack of desire to purchase a playset of FoW since I still need 2 Wastelands...

But if I were doing Ru I'd probably use my 12 flex spots for:
4 Brainstorm *or* 4 Stifle
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Flectomancer (hey, why not... otherwise he's a Stingscourger)
3 Standstill

I'd keep MM in my sideboard.

[GoboLord]

Hey guys,

yesterday i tested for about 2 hours whith th second list i posted:

//Lands [22]
4 Waste
3 Rishadan port
9 R-Fetches (non-U)
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mountain

//Core [26]
...

//Others [12]
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stinger

//SB
needs work


Although i dont like the idea of running U i find this list very strong.
First of all: Daze and MM are for free, thus it doesn't distrub your aggro plan
Daze + 7 manadenial is very effective!
And: The surprise factor is huge. Sometimes You don't need U until the lategame. With 9 fetches your opp will almost never see a counterspell coming. Plus: WHen your opp knows that we run Daze he keeps playing around it, even it isn't in your hand. Thats a huge advantage too!

So overall: I'd advice every one to test this configuration! Although the SB needs to be worked on.

[ScatmanX]

Something to keep in mind is that, if you mantain the Core, even if you put something like 4 Gempalm, 8 Islands on the 12 flex slots, the deck will continue to be good. So What we need to discover is if the deck is winning because of MM and Daze, or in spite of them.

Just to disagree with GoboLord once, I do not like Daze in goblins. Maybe in the SB of the list I suggested last page, it could work, but I did not liked it in my testing.
MM and Brainstorm, on the other hand, were great. Brainstorm work great with Fetchs and Matron and Ringleader. On thing that happened a LOT on testing was: Brainstorm in my turn, draw 2 lands and a goblin, put 2 goblins back on top, Vial Ringleader and get 3-4 goblins. This is a killer.

@Ace: Stifle looks great on paper on our deck, but it is again, counterproductive. You are leaving mana open, sometimes even turn 1, where you wanted to have cast Lackey/Vial. So, even if it hits, and you made your opponent lose tempo, you too were set back a turn on your gameplan, so it was not that great... Also, it does not answer problem cards, like creatures/Plague/So on...

[jrw1985]

@Ace: Stifle looks great on paper on our deck, but it is again, counterproductive. You are leaving mana open, sometimes even turn 1, where you wanted to have cast Lackey/Vial. So, even if it hits, and you made your opponent lose tempo, you too were set back a turn on your gameplan, so it was not that great... Also, it does not answer problem cards, like creatures/Plague/So on...

You make a good point here. I think that no matter what new cards come along or how the meta shifts, Goblins as a deck is still powered by t1 Lackey or Vial. Playing cards that don't allow you to play your 1-drop probably don't help you win games.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Guys Im sorry but I dont think blue splash is the way to go. . . . Whats all the buzz about MM I dont think it would greatly affect our deck, so whats the deal if they counter our vial or lackey first turn, 2nd, 3rd . . . .? We have 4 copies of each and MM does only have 4:rolleyes: Counter our lackey its ok.... we have our back up the more threatening warren instigators..:cool: In a battle againts control (if MM would greatly affect the meta) decks we have said and discussed that WI is the way to go plus sideboard wise we have pyroblast and REB. Well just my opinion guys...

[bakofried]

I think you all need to get off the fucking hype train. Them killing our dudes is natural; we have more CA, so while they're 1-for-1ing, you can follow up with Ringleader, Matron, Gempalm and SGC. You weaken the CA of the deck by throwing in so many non-Goblins, and I don't think it's worth it.

[GoboLord]

I think you all need to get off the fucking hype train. Them killing our dudes is natural; we have more CA, so while they're 1-for-1ing, you can follow up with Ringleader, Matron, Gempalm and SGC. You weaken the CA of the deck by throwing in so many non-Goblins, and I don't think it's worth it.

We are not even riding on the fucking hype train.
I think it's reasonable to run countermagic that doesn't disrupt our gameplan (aka. Daze and MM).
With 8 non-Goblin cards in MDour deck is far away from being dilluted and our CA engine isn't touched significantly.
Plus: I think the most important reason to run countermagic is NOT that it protects our dudes (which it CAN do, but running more dudes is more efficient here) but that it makes it easier to fight combo (which is on a rise right now).
It's not that we are trying to design 'Next Level Goblins' or something like that. What we are working on is improving bad MU ( a neverending quest for every deck) in part by designing new variants. And IMO Mental Misstep is worth testing.

[bakofried]

Even then, I fail to see how this will significantly alter our win percentages against combo. High Tide and Storm can play around decks packing a dedicated counter suite. You run 8 counters - none of which touch their bombs if you're careful. And Misstepping a Ritual kind of blows. You essentially add another 2 to their storm count. You *may* hurt dredge by hitting a discard outlet, but as a dredge pilot, I can assure you it's in no way crippling. Honestly, Storm Pilots play through far more disruption than what you're adding, so why do you think this will be successful?

As a side note, Daze is free in a deck with a low manacurve, not in one as manaheavy as this.

[GoboLord]

How paranoid must that storm-combo-player be to play around countermagic ins GOBLINs?
The logic is as follows: We have a good chance on winning against combo even with our regular 4-8 combo-hate slots in SB. So 8 additional cards that disrupt them can't be bad. I must admit that MM and Daze will not break their necks, but I when we do the math:

8 Disruption (MD) + 4 Hatecards (SB) > 0 Disruption (MD) + 4 Hatecards (SB)

The good thing about Daze is: You don't need to counter in early turns. Later in game when you have done some damage with manadenial and you got a Rishadan Port online Daze can still hit creatures with highmanacosts (e.g. many decks dont have mana left after casting Tombstalker or KotR).

[bakofried]

The "surprise factor" argument is bullshit. That doesn't lead to an optimal decklist, it means we *may* get a few wins until your local Storm Pilot wises up. To be honest, it shouldn't take longer than the first game. And yes, Daze loses a lot of its value late in the game. That is very well accepted, and I don't know how you can argue around that. And yes, 8 cards that disrupt them but dick with our tribal synergy can most certainly be called bad.

[GoboLord]

The "surprise factor" argument is bullshit.
Bullshit which you obviously dont have any arguments against...


That doesn't lead to an optimal decklist,

It's not that we are trying to design 'Next Level Goblins' or something like that.


And yes, Daze loses a lot of its value late in the game. That is very well accepted, and I don't know how you can argue around that.

If you don't know how I can agrue around that you should read my last post again:

Later in game when you have done some damage with manadenial and you got a Rishadan Port online Daze can still hit creatures with highmanacosts (e.g. many decks dont have mana left after casting Tombstalker or KotR).
I didn't even say that Daze does NOT lose strength in lategame (same goes for Lackey and Vial, still we are running both of them. So it's not a very good argument here to begin with). WHat I pointed out is that really NO deck has ever before combined Dazes with 7-8 Manadenial (aka. Wastelands AND Rishadan Ports). That's something you can't predict from what is "well accepted".,



Seriously: This discussion is about TESTING new cards not CREATING a new deck. Unless there are critical conceptual mistakes in the deck (or the idea) we are testing (like running a singleton FoR in an otherwise MonoR deck) there can't be any reason against testing. We don't know what impact the card (MM) has on the meta. We don't know to what degree it does or does not disturb any deck (theories and predictions won't get us anywhere). You didn't even TEST this configuration yourself. So please tell me why you think your complains about those lists we suggested can help us with testing.

//EDIT: I'm sorry if I sound harsh - I don't want to offend you. Its just that I absolutely can't stand if an argumentation lacks proofs, examples, explanation and logic.

[Ace/Homebrew]

@Ace: Stifle looks great on paper on our deck, but it is again, counterproductive. You are leaving mana open, sometimes even turn 1, where you wanted to have cast Lackey/Vial. So, even if it hits, and you made your opponent lose tempo, you too were set back a turn on your gameplan, so it was not that great... Also, it does not answer problem cards, like creatures/Plague/So on...

Good point. Makes a lot of sense.
I have NOT built the Ru list to test it because I am 4 Volcanic Islands short and they seem pretty important in that splash :rolleyes:

As a general rule, I agree with Bakofried. Taking goblins out of Goblins is not a good idea and needs to be done with careful consideration. However the meta is filled with combo and that's not good for our little green dudes.

GoboLord and ScatmanX and anyone else testing U splash. You've mentioned your likes and dislikes of the flex cards but I'd really be interested in hearing what decks your opponents were using, and whether your match up was improved/the same/worse than more traditional goblins. Mostly interested in how your ANT/TES/High Tide game has changed.
I am still very new to Legacy and have admittedly been more wrong than right regarding my statements on his forum but I believe the shift towards a Combo-heavy meta is not a lasting one. Survival's banning affected a lot and the top decks are still fighting for dominance. BUT our match up against combo sucks and I'd love to know we can build a deck that improves our match up to 50/50 or so without sacrificing our already positive match ups (just like we can build a deck that improves our Zoo game).

I don't know that blue splash is the answer Goblins needs to beat combo, but it's worth exploring.
As a side note, I like the blue splash more and more the less blue cards are being run main deck. The Brainstorm tricks using Ringleader and a fetch-land heavy manabase sound like a great way to set yourself up to break your opponents back. I really don't like running counter-magic in goblins and is the reason I chose goblins over fish. However I am quick to adopt a strategy that is proven to work...

[bakofried]

You ignored my follow-up statement. The "surprise factor" will work a finite number of times, depending on the size of your local community and the tournament scene there, as well as the playskill of the opponent. If he sees blue game 1, then he (or she) will be on guard for Force, Daze, Spell Pierce, and certainly Mental Misstep (with all the hype floating around) in game 2. If this becomes a common convention in Goblins, then eventually that information will be disseminated to most of the Legacy community, diminishing the value of the "surprise factor" - and when most of the value of the strategy comes from that factor, you have a strategy that will quickly become defunct.

And yes, early merfolk builds used Rishadan Port as well as Wasteland. This was in conjunction with Daze, Force, and Stifle.

Also, I never claimed you were creating a new deck. I'm just stating my opinion that the blue splash is terrible, and Mental Misstep changes this in such a marginal way that it shouldn't be considered.

[Humphrey]

i dont like running 12 non gobo cards and splashing blue. but i think mm in a monor build can be very effective. less dmg to fetches and no problems with wastes stifle and shit.

im going to try

lands 22
14 mountain
4 waste
4 port

core 26

flex 12
4 mm
2 instigator or mwm
2 chieftain
2 incinerator
2 stingscourger

sb
4 mindbreak t
4 pyrokinesis
2 tormods
2 relique of p
3 shatterstorm

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I don't think dazing is really desirable in goblins, especially when on the draw. You will need your land drops to developp your own tempo.
Merfolk and all it's lords are better suited for control cards because they do not rely on tempo as much as goblins do. So if you try to follow such deck plan, I'd suggest going for merfolk as creature base instead.


i dont like running 12 non gobo cards and splashing blue. but i think mm in a monor build can be very effective. less dmg to fetches and no problems with wastes stifle and shit.

im going to try

lands 22
14 mountain
4 waste
4 port

core 26

flex 12
4 mm
2 instigator or mwm
2 chieftain
2 incinerator
2 stingscourger

sb
4 mindbreak t
4 pyrokinesis
2 tormods
2 relique of p
3 shatterstorm

I'd try -1 chieftain, +1 instigator (3 total), -4 port, +2 chrome mox, +2 mountain.
Relic of progenitus is not my favourite gy card. I prefer to play crypt+lackey/vial on turn 1, relic can be too slow (and it costs an extra mana to empty the gy). Especially since relic can be hit by MM. If you want a split fairie macabre is a good alternative.

[Humphrey]

hm i dont see why chromemox should be better than port now, plague and spout are still played. maybe 2 ports 2 moxen?
in the testing after instigator was printed ive found him a little bit unimpressive, 3 is to much for my taste, id like to put better things into play than more lackeys

[Vandalize]

How the hell Mental Misstep and Daze hurt Combo? At least T.E.S/A.N.T, they'll be very pleased if you add 2 storm counts for them (1 for MM cast, and 1 for -2 life).

They often duress/chant before going off against any deck (if they can't hit anything, they've just added a storm count) and MM and Daze will almost never hit their key cards (LED, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Ad Nauseam).

I'm not harassing that blue splash, I just think that adding Daze/MM *might* improve our combo MU, while weakening other good matchups (like countertop, for example).

[FoxBlade]

You ignored my follow-up statement. The "surprise factor" will work a finite number of times, depending on the size of your local community and the tournament scene there, as well as the playskill of the opponent. If he sees blue game 1, then he (or she) will be on guard for Force, Daze, Spell Pierce, and certainly Mental Misstep (with all the hype floating around) in game 2. If this becomes a common convention in Goblins, then eventually that information will be disseminated to most of the Legacy community, diminishing the value of the "surprise factor" - and when most of the value of the strategy comes from that factor, you have a strategy that will quickly become defunct.

Translation: "The surprise factor will work, until its no longer a surprise"

Do you think none of us are thought about that? What you just described is every new strategy EVER and what happens when opponents adapt to the new strategy.

What gobbolord is saying is to take advantage of the "surprise factor" while it still is a "surprise factor."

Why not take advantage of the "surprise factor" when it is a surprise and see if we can't take advantage of that?

I agree with gobbolord, even if the splash doesn't work out, why not test it and see? There's certainly nothing wrong with testing and seeing if there is some legitimacy to the U splash. If it works - then great.

If it doesn't then we'll have good concrete data supporting why it doesn't work.

[thefreakaccident]

If you guys are serious about trying out blue goblins, you should definitely use curfew. The card literally just makes goblins better.

[bakofried]

Except those cards are fairly easy to play around for Combo. You'd need double Misstep to even provide a speedbump against competent Storm pilots, and even then it's iffy. Oh, and here's a tip: everyone will be paranoid as fuck about this card after it's legal. With all this hype, people will be expecting it.

And look, if you want to rogue it up with blue goblins, go for it, but it won't lead to a generally optimal decklist.

[GoboLord]

@ FoxBlade: Exactly. I'm testing for testing purposes so that we have concrete data. And I want to use the surprise factor.
@ bakofried: Hmm, good point :confused:. Everyone will be paranoid about MM - that's something I didn't consider yet. Then again it might be even more surprising if we DON'T run it :-D (meta predicting truly is complicated). There is a high chance that you are right, but that's something only testing can reveal - and I to motivate as many people as possible to work out testresults with U splash.

[Gun4Hire]

Seriously what was R&D thinking making mental misstep? Blue didn't already have the best counter spell in force of will! Not to mention daze. Now the meta in the meta to be truly competitive you have to run control. They need to stop overpowering blue! They better start printing thunderbolts with 0 cc and a new goblin lackey version that's a 2/1 shroud and can't be countered! Lol with haste

[GoboLord]

Seriously what was R&D thinking making mental misstep? Blue didn't already have the best counter spell in force of will! Not to mention daze. Now the meta in the meta to be truly competitive you have to run control. They need to stop overpowering blue! They better start printing thunderbolts with 0 cc and a new goblin lackey version that's a 2/1 shroud and can't be countered! Lol with haste

....sometimes I wish I were a Mod.

[Skeggi]

From page 21 of this thread:


I see you guys splashing blue for a more control build of Goblins. Actually, a couple of months ago, Team ADHD had a couple tournament successes with the following list:

Team ADHD's Merflins

// Lands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
4 Mutavault
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 AEther Vial
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Fire / Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Stifle

It's basically Merfolk, but with better creatures: Goblins.

Explanation on cardchoices:
No blue fetch. The important thing in this list is that the opponent doesn't see the counters coming. Surprise effect is huge.
Standstill over Goblin Ringleader: with such a low Goblin count, you need something else to draw cards. Plus it ups the blue count for Force of Will
Fire / Ice: a multi-purpose card. Brilliant in making Goblin Lackey connect, also very good at shooting Grim Lavamancer. It's the only decent burn card that pitches to Force of Will.
Mutavault over Wasteland: there's not really room for extra colorless land, and with the creature count being so low as it is, you require some manland. Also a must if you run Standstill.
Brainstorm: probably the best legacy card ever printed. If you splash blue, you want this. Works pretty good with the 9 Fetches.

We have played tournaments with it and the results were well above expectation. The maindeck is pretty snug, so apart from fitting in Wastelands I can't imagine alot of improvements. The sideboard needs some tinkering.

Just take out Daze and put in Mental Misstep. :wink:

And as said before, Mind Harness is a pretty strong sideboard card.

[bloodbrother]

Although I don't think the Lord-attempt will be successful ( I myself piloted a 12-Lord List on 2 tourneys) I would give countermagic a try. We don't necessarily have to combine it with another strange idea but just stick to what we have:

//Lands [22] //Core [26] + //Countermagic [12]

Because of a lack of Blue cards we MUST cut Core.cards when trying to integrate counters (especially FoW).
Here's a list I've been thinking of:

//Lands [22]
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
8 R-Fetches (non-U)
2 Volcanic Island
5 Mountain

//Core [22]
- 4 Ringleader

//Others [16]
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Fire//Ice (removal that can be pitched into FoW)

Without Force of Will we can be even closer to our regular list:

//Lands [22]
(same)

//Core [26]
...

//Others [12]
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze

3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

There is also interesting SB-material in U:

* Hibernation
* Echoing Truth
* Stifle

What I have in mind is close to Gobolords list.

//Lands [20]
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
6 R-Fetches (non-U)
2 Volcanic Island
5 Mountain

//Core [22]
- 4 Ringleader

//Others [18]
4 Mental Misstep
4 FoW
3 Daze
3 Stifle (+ 3 Rishadan Port + 4 Wasteland makes Daze very happy)
4 Standstill - Replaces ringleader

An 8 Haste Lord list could look like this

//Lands [20]
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
6 R-Fetches (non-U)
2 Volcanic Island
5 Mountain

//Core [22]
4 Vial
4 Lackey
2 Matron
2 Piledriver - For merfolk and other blue decks
2 Goblin King - For zoo
4 Chieftain
4 Warchief

//Others [18]
4 Mental Misstep
4 FoW
3 Daze
3 Stifle (+ 3 Rishadan Port + 4 Wasteland makes Daze very happy)
4 Standstill - Replaces ringleader

Note that this list nullifies the goblin hate that we fear the most (Hi Engineered Plague) with 6 +1/+1 Lords plus counterspells.

[Skeggi]

4 Standstill - Replaces ringleader
If you cut Ringleader for Standstill, you need manland like Mutavault. Also, we couldn't manage running 2 colors and Wasteland without losing consistency, let alon run Rishadan Port. Trust me, try the ADHD list: it's been tried and tested, and besides being a fun april's fool joke, it's actually a reasonable list (just be sure to cut the Stifles from the sideboard for Mind Harnesses.

[bloodbrother]

If you cut Ringleader for Standstill, you need manland like Mutavault. Also, we couldn't manage running 2 colors and Wasteland without losing consistency, let alon run Rishadan Port. Trust me, try the ADHD list: it's been tried and tested, and besides being a fun april's fool joke, it's actually a reasonable list (just be sure to cut the Stifles from the sideboard for Mind Harnesses.

I like your list too. I think I'll test it.

[ScatmanX]

How the hell Mental Misstep and Daze hurt Combo? At least T.E.S/A.N.T, they'll be very pleased if you add 2 storm counts for them (1 for MM cast, and 1 for -2 life).
If you're a experient goblin player, you will not cast Daze on their combo turn if you don't know for SURE it'll stop their combo.
Daze and MM are good at crippling their development, used better used in Brainstorms, Ponders and stuff like that.

No one said that the combo MU will become good if we run those cards, we just have some more weapons to fight it.
No one said that the blue splash is optimal, we just like testing out new things. From every 50 ideas we present, maybe 1 will turn out to be great, and that's fine. We know all the ideas won't work, and almost all are suboptimal, but if we don't try it (and no one else do), then we will never know for sure.

[GoboLord]

...as if anyone were forced to run U in Goblins :-D
We are testing things - not changing the deck.

[ScatmanX]

...as if anyone were forced to run U in Goblins :-D
We are testing things - not changing the deck.
Oh my GOD! you're trying Mental Misstep and Daze!!!! You're such a NOOBZoooOoOrRR!!!111!!1!!

If no one else want to test variations, that's fine. But don't complain about us doing so.

If it wasn't for someone first testing Mogg Warmarchall, I'd probably not been running them until now. Same thing with 1off Skirk Prospector...

[bloodbrother]

Oh my GOD! you're trying Mental Misstep and Daze!!!! You're such a NOOBZoooOoOrRR!!!111!!1!!

If no one else want to test variations, that's fine. But don't complain about us doing so.

If it wasn't for someone first testing Mogg Warmarchall, I'd probably not been running them until now. Same thing with 1off Skirk Prospector...

+1

Basically those that tested Mog War Marshal and failed tried to race Zoo and those who tested Mog War Marshal and succeeded dragged Zoo to the late game where our CA eats them alive.

Same with Warren Instigator, we need to cut Ports and add Chrome Mox.

If Goblins can have a game one shot vs TES and Dredge without hurting Zoo and Merfolk match-ups then why not. Only test results will show. If we don't test now, then when?

Goblins have hands that can win on turn 3, Merfolks don't. And they have positive combo match-up due to disruption.

[bakofried]

Guys, if you have time to blow, go for it. We're throwing theorycraft at you to see if it even passes there - and half the time you guys shrug it off and say "we'll test it anyway." While I admire your tenacity, it's not really productive. Like why can't we discuss how we should adapt our deck in response to everyone and their mother running MM - without running it ourselves? We'd need another bomb at 2cc to have a strong follow-up play, and this seems like a smart call with combo floating around.

Merfolk also run Force, have a lower curve to support Daze, and sport taxing countermagic in the form of Cursecatcher (aside from Spell Pierce). And guess what? They still have a mediocre combo MU.

[ScatmanX]

...discuss how we should adapt our deck in response to everyone and their mother running MM - without running it ourselves? We'd need another bomb at 2cc to have a strong follow-up play, and this seems like a smart call with combo floating around.
I think that a list with 2 Mox and Warren Instigator would be enough to combat MM. I don't think it is all that great against us, and I don't think every deck will play it after 2 months.
I think that even a regular build is resilient enough to play against MM properly. I don't think the card will be the boggyeman against us.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Guys if your interested in splashing blue with 4 FOW mainboard I would recommend razorfin hunter(hybrid gobs/merfolk) to have more synergy with ringleader and a pitch card for FOW- THIS IS NOT A JOKE:cool:

[bloodbrother]

Guys if your interested in splashing blue with 4 FOW mainboard I would recommend razorfin hunter(hybrid gobs/merfolk) to have more synergy with ringleader and a pitch card for FOW- THIS IS NOT A JOKE:cool:

That also came into my mind the moment Skeggi suggested Mutavault. With Lord of Atlantis on the table, that + Mutavault + Piledriver is devastating to Merfolks. But then again Merfolks is supposed to be a good match-up for us, so I dismissed the Razorfin Hunter idea. I did think of Goblin Flectomancer as some sort of Kira effect (extra protection to creatures). But dismissed it due to we are not running Lord Effects.

[Avatara]

Don't forget that running islands will allow Merfolks to use island walk.

[ScatmanX]

Don't forget that running islands will allow Merfolks to use island walk.
Yes, this is tricky.
But that is actually a double edged sword, just like when we run Goblin King against Zoo. A Bolt (or Gempalm, in our case), may turn the combat step all around after an attack with their "unblockable" creatures.
Another thing is that, if they Waste our duals, they lose the landwalk ability. So maybe they'll sub-use their Wastes/Lord.

[bloodbrother]

Yes, this is tricky.
But that is actually a double edged sword, just like when we run Goblin King against Zoo. A Bolt (or Gempalm, in our case), may turn the combat step all around after an attack with their "unblockable" creatures.
Another thing is that, if they Waste our duals, they lose the landwalk ability. So maybe they'll sub-use their Wastes/Lord.

We could also waste our own dual. I'm not saying we would, just we could.

Is anyone already play testing against the new merfolk deck after new phyrexia becomes legal? Basically what I see is that they run the non standstill list + 4 Mental Misstep. I think we should focus play testing our original list with the old and new lists of our good match-ups like merfolk. If we can't beat their new lists with our original list then we should seriously think of some innovation here. I mean this deck's core are not spoon fed to us when it originated, they were conceptualized and play tested by someone. Let's not wait before we end up in the established decks before we act.

[bakofried]

Can someone please tell me how the blue splash will effectively fight combo if Merfolk still has a mediocre combo MU, and yet packs more disruptive countermagic along with FoW?

[Vandalize]

Wew, I'm starting to get lucky in Magic again (after a long while). Played a small tourney in my city (32 players) and went 5-0. Got 1 Tropical Island, 1 Foil MM Brainstorm, 20 bucks and a Judgement booster (why the hell anyone would keep a Judgement booster?). Opened the booster and just got Wonder and Worldgorger Dragon, yay!

I was playing with this list:

Lands [22]

8 Mountain
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
2 Chrome Mox

Core [26]

...

Removal [4]

1 Stingscourger
1 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding

Others [8]

4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain

Sideboard [15]

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Perish
2 Null Rod
2 Shattering Spree (wanted some Pulverize, but couldn't find any)


Matches:
1- Merfolk (2-0) easy mode
2- ANT (2-0) Game 1, t1 Lackey + Wastelands raped him, and Game 2 his Ad Nauseam fizzled (happy me :D).
3- Dredge (2-1) Game 1 he goes nuts, Game 2 and 3, LotV gets me there (he has no answer for it both games).
4- SnT/NO (2-1) -> read below
5- Merfolk (2-1) Game 1 was easy. Game 2 he gets an active Jitte. Game 3 double Warren Weirding and double Piledriver gets me there.


I knew I was facing a SnT deck, I saw his Emrakuls, but I wouldn't imagine Natural Order as sb package.

Game 1: He wins the roll and go for Lotus Petal -> Ancient Tomb -> SnT -> Emrakul turn 1, meh...

Game 2 was easy with Lackey -> SGC + Piledriver (T3 kill).

Game 3, I started with this: Wasteland, Auntie's Hovel, Warchief, Chieftain, Piledriver, Matron, Warren Weirding.
T1:
He played Fetch -> Trop -> Ponder, pass.
I topdeck a SGC, played Wasteland on Trop, pass.
T2:
He played another Fetch -> Trop, and GSZ for 0 fetching a Drayd Arbor, pass.
I topdeck a Chieftain, played auntie's Hovel, pass.
T3
He plays another drayd, plays GSZ for 1 and fetches a Noble Hierarch, pass.
I topdeck a Mountain, played Piledriver, pass.
T4
He ponders, and attacks for 2 with exalted Arbor, pass.
I topdeck another Auntie's Hovel, play Chieftain, which faces a FoW, attack for 1, pass.
T5
He plays NO (sac 1 arbor), grabbing Progenitus, pass.
I topdeck a Matron, play Warchief, pass.
T6
He attacks with exalted Prog, getting me to 7 life, pass (he has 1 arbor, 1 tapped prog, 1 noble, and 1 untapped trop).
I topdeck a mountain, play it. 2 Mountains, 2 Hovels and my hand looks like this: Matron, Matron, WW, Chieftain, SGC.

After a lot of time thinking: He's at 17. I played Matron (hovel + mountain tapped) fetching Piledriver. Play the Piledriver (mountain tapped), attack with double Piledriver + Matron + Warchief. He blocks the Piledrivers with arbor and Noble (yay!). Post-Combat Mainphase I play WW, hoping he doesn't have a FoW/Daze and it resolves. Game...

Did I play it correctly? I mean, I just got lucky he blocked my Piledrivers and didn't have a counterspell ready.

[FoxBlade]

Can someone please tell me how the blue splash will effectively fight combo if Merfolk still has a mediocre combo MU, and yet packs more disruptive countermagic along with FoW?

First, I have to say I think you are just trolling. I think you were before, but it's even more obvious now.

Secondly, I even agree with you, I don't think there's anything to the blue splash - but I disagree with you in that I think there should still be some testing and some concrete data.

Third - Stop comparing merfolk to goblins, they are not the same and don't play the same way. There is no reason for you to compare merfolk to goblins because they run different cards/different SB.

Finally, No one (and in fact this has been repeated time and time again) is saying the U splash will work, only that some of the cards that U offers may HELP to fight problems in the combo MU. That is a far cry from saying that the U splash will be any better than merfolk (or any other deck for that matter) for beating combo without data.

This is why I say you are just trolling now, you are asking for data when no one has any and you are perfectly aware of this since you have been bitching about the U splash in just the theory craft stages. Stop trolling and just wait for the data instead of trying to fish for posts and arguments that will prove you right.

It's not that we don't think you are right, we just want to say without a doubt that your way of thinking is right.

[mossivo1986]

God I want to. Yes I will.

Needs more

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGTIM/fathom_seer.jpg

With that said, isn't thoughtseize just stronger then mm for this deck as well as others? You take a better card, you punish mulligans harder, and you get to see their hand? How could this be worse?

[bakofried]

Well, I can't change your opinion on that matter. If you think I'm a troll, please address it in a PM, so we don't clutter up the board with shitty ad hominem arguments.

So moving on.

How is attempting to dismantle the theory behind the blue splash trolling? AFAIK, the blue splash was suggested because we now have a counterspell which may not require the high blue count FoW does (which greatly weakens the strength of the Ringleader engine). We would (theoretically) want a counterspell to shore up the combo MU while not losing value in other match-ups. Well, first we have to ask, how much does this card realistically hurt combo? I would argue that it's value against combo that isn't Dredge or Reanimator is minimal. Misstep (or Daze, Pierce, whatever counterspell you're trying to incorporate) would in all likelihood eat it to a Duress, Silence, Chant, or Seize in the Storm MU. So (here's the surprise factor) you may catch an essential ritual with it one game, but after that, they'll play around it, which, given the limited number of good counterspells we can run, is fairly easy to do. I don't think it even slows them down to the point that we have a chance to get in for lethal; a Silence effect turn 2 wrecks that plan, and is only salvaged by having multiple Missteps in hand. High Tide is pretty pricey, and due to that scarcity it's rare to see. On top of that, it's not the easiest deck to play. But, even you ignore it's scarcity, they run countermagic (and are certainly capable of running Misstep) of their own. The benefit is this is already a fairly slow combo deck. You may be able to goldfish them, and in all honesty, Misstep could give you a game or two here. But you can't forget they're not weak to Daze, and they could simply counter the Misstep. Reanimator? Yes, this card is excellent against them. Most of their business and disruption is 1cc - but we have a decent MU here. Racing Sphinx with Piledriver is doable, and Iona isn't too scary if you have access to Sting with a Vial or are using the black splash. You can stop Dredge's discard outlets and draw spells, but they could just go for the draw, discard, dredge plan and smoke you that way. Traditional GY hate is most likely superior out of the board, all the same. Elf-combo? Yeah, it'll do well, but Chalice+Pyro/Perish is far superior. Plus, the deck is built so that its 1-drops can die, it's not like it will fold when you hit a Glimpse/H. Druid/Sentinel with it. They just play more dudes and move on.
If I've forgotten a major combo deck, let me know.

Next we need to consider its applications outside of combo. Really, what cards actually hurt Goblins that are stopped by Mental Misstep? Well, removal can be a pain sometimes. Stopping Bolt, Swords, Blood, Chain, etc. seems pretty sweet - but it hurts our CA engine, which helps us recover from sweepers, which are much more difficult to fight. Now, it wouldn't sting too much if we just used the non-goblin flex slots - of which we realistically have about 4. I set that number simply because it's the maximum number of bolts I saw when Zoo was huge. And even then, my Ringleaders were less than ideal. Is this anecdotal evidence? Yes. If someone could mathematically calculate the number of non-goblins (excepting mana+Aether Vial) we could run and still have good Ringleaders, it would be appreciated, but I have no such skills. Until then, I'm running with this. Past removal, what do we have to worry about? Well, removal on a stick. Grim Lavamancer. This card is undoubtedly worthy of a counter. But we can't forget - he is a creature. A very squishy creature. If we can get a Mogg token to stick, we can deal with Lavamancer. And, in my mind, a goblin answer trumps a non-goblin answer. There is Sensei's Divining Top, certainly a format staple - but aren't we strong against CounterTop variants, whatever the flavor (aside from certain obnoxious variants packing Swords+Lavamancer+Firespout)? I don't really see the need for it here. And I'm getting a wee bit tired. So point out any others to me, please.

Ultimately, I'm don't care if you want to test the blue splash or not. That is your prerogative. But would you deny me the right to discuss the validity of it? I realize there isn't hard data here, and that's not what I'm asking for. I'm asking for good, solid arguments and counterarguments for and against this card. If you can't provide that until after testing - okay! Say so. But don't bitch at me for wanting to talk about it.

PS: Foxblade, sent you a PM.
PPS: mossivo, please don't say you're likening me to pi4. That would take the joy out of the weekend.
PPPS: I compare Merfolk to Goblins simply because we would be adopting a poorer version of their disruption package. If it would make you feel better, I can start using hate-bear-less Bant as an example instead of Merfolk.

[GoboLord]

After a lot of time thinking: He's at 17. I played Matron (hovel + mountain tapped) fetching Piledriver. Play the Piledriver (mountain tapped), attack with double Piledriver + Matron + Warchief. He blocks the Piledrivers with arbor and Noble (yay!). Post-Combat Mainphase I play WW, hoping he doesn't have a FoW/Daze and it resolves. Game...

Did I play it correctly? I mean, I just got lucky he blocked my Piledrivers and didn't have a counterspell ready.

Well done! This was a very good play. Sure it was lucky that he actally blocked both of them but thats just mindgameing: double Piledriver attacking triggers a strong blocking-reflex in your opponents.
Another Alternative would have been to fetch the second WW with Matron. But this would have told your opponent in a slight whisper:

LOOK AT THIS CARD, BUDDY! I GOT TO GET RID OF YOUR SMALL DUDES TO BE ABLE TO WIN THIS!!!!!!!!

Gratz on the results!

[bakofried]

Sorry, argument has me forgetting my manners. Congrats on the result, and congrats on the mindgaming. I'd have bungled it all to hell, I'm sure. I'll actually be testing that list this weekend, minus 2 Chrome Mox (no access to them). Any tips on playstyle for this version? (Gobolord, I'd like some input here from you as well. I don't like walking in cold with a deck [though I've done some goldfishing]).

Also, Auntie's Hovels or red fetches? I'm on the fence.

[Skeggi]

Can someone please tell me how the blue splash will effectively fight combo if Merfolk still has a mediocre combo MU, and yet packs more disruptive countermagic along with FoW?

To effectively fight combo you need 2 things:

1: A fast clock. Even with the blue splash, Goblins have a faster clock than Merfolk. There's still the possibility of a turn 3 kill with turn 1 Goblin Lackey into turn 2 Siege-Gang Commander + cast Goblin Piledriver. If you apply enough pressure, your Combo opponent doesn't have time to form his hand with enough protection so he can go guarantee his combo kill. Also, if he's forced to go off via Ad Nauseam with low life (10 or less), you have a high chance to win (especially if your opponent is awful enough to try those Grim Tutor builds).

2: Disruption, preferably maindeck. Merfolk has better disruption than Goblins. The disruption Goblins has is often (even post-sideboard) not good enough to win from good combo players, that's why the blue splash heavily increases the combo match-up for Goblins.


Also, Auntie's Hovels or red fetches? I'm on the fence.
I see no reason to pay life if I don't have to. I'm using Auntie's Hovel. I've never had problems showing a Goblin I wouldn't cast the same turn anyway, or just put it into play tapped if you can't cast a Goblin that turn. The card virtually has no drawback.

[bakofried]

See my earlier points on the value of this limited disruption suite.

Also, have you guys have wished for more removal MD? I feel like 4 is a tad light, really.

[GoboLord]

Hmm, i never tested this configuration (4 WI, 4 Chieftain) without Chrome Moxes, but I can't believe that this is bad at all. One thing is for sure: without Chrome Mox you lose speed. I tested the alternatives that were suggested a few weeks ago (Gemstone Caverns and Simian Spirit Guide) but did not like either one of them. Thus, if you don't have Chrome Mox then just fill the slots with colored lands. Because the RR-manacosts are very frequent there is really no room for any :1:-land (other than Wasteland - and I sometimes feel like cutting even those =/).

About fetchland vs. Auntie's Hovel: it depends. Wasteland is frequently played in legacy (although this might be different in your meta). Therefore I'd suggest to run as less targets as possible because you need to have RR or even RRR almost every turn to reliably cast WI and Chieftain. My configuration was 3 Badlands + 7 Fetches (=10 possible B sources). I think Vandalizes configuration is just more risky while he has "only" 8 B sources on 5 B cards in total. Another point for Fetchlands is the fact that you can hide your splash-color in game 1 (which makes it harder for your opponent to prepare for your SB cards). I don't know if this advantage is too important, but it IS an advantage.

[Skeggi]

I'm actually looking the other way at the Wasteland-debacle:

The obvious risk is that you run 3 Badlands while if your opponent has Wasteland he's likely to run 4. You may run out of black mana. So the important question is: which match-ups where your opponent has Wasteland is black mana essential?

The most important black card in your 75 is Perish, so which decks with green creatures run Wastelands?
There are known Zoo builds where Wastelands were run (top 8 GP:Madrid), but this number of Zoo decks is on the decline.
There are Bant Tempo decks with Natural Order=>Progenitus supported by Knight of the Reliquary.
There's Dark Horizons, also with Knight of the Reliquary to make sure you don't have black mana.
There's New Horizons, again, Knight of the Reliquary to fetch Wasteland.
There's GW Vial Aggro: Knight of the Reliquary.

Basically there are quite some decks out there with Knight of the Reliquary. They usually run enough removal (Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile) to stay alive for quite a while, and after that their creatures are bigger than yours (Tarmogoyf, Kitchen Finks, Rhox War Monk). You really need lategame Perish against these decks, as it's an I-win button. I think a build with 4 Badlands and 4 Auntie's Hovel is more likely to be able to produce :2::b: lategame than a build with 3 Badlands and 7 fetchlands.


With that said, isn't thoughtseize just stronger then mm for this deck as well as others? You take a better card, you punish mulligans harder, and you get to see their hand? How could this be worse?
It costs mana. You don't want to cast a turn 1 Thoughtseize over a turn 1 Vial or Lackey. With Mental Misstep, you don't have to chose, you can just do both.

[egosum]

I' ve posted a deck involving the MM + Standstill + FoW + Goblins idea

http:///www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20722-%5BDECK%5D-Lackey-Still&p=543264

I didn't post it here just because (as I explain in the thread) I think is not a propper Goblins deck, so it maybe off-topic, but is a deck using Goblins instead.

Hope you can have a look and give opinions (just don't expect to see a deck full of Goblins beating hard, as we are used to).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Sinkhole]

Ì´m back now, from a long MTG break and want to start playing again with Goblins. My list is a bit older, so I have a few questions on it.

20 Core
2 Siege, Gang Commander
2 Mogg War Marshall
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Chieftain

2 Warren Weirding
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain

So how good do you think is Lightning Bolt, now Mental Misstep is printed? Before I loved Bolts for hitting with your Lackeys Daze prove. Also nice against Zoo and the mirror and steal me a few games against combo. Further do you think I should cut War Marshalls for Instigator and the Wort for a second Chieftain, if I add Instigators?

I really enjoy, that people want improving Goblins with the U-Splash, but I think if you do so, you will get a completly different deck. I think an aggro controll Goblin/"Fish" hybrid. For myself I want optimizing an classical R/B Vial Goblins build, which is up to date and don`t have a problem dealing with Mm. So I need a bit help from the experienced players.

[Skeggi]

So how good do you think is Lightning Bolt, now Mental Misstep is printed? Before I loved Bolts for hitting with your Lackeys Daze prove. Also nice against Zoo and the mirror and steal me a few games against combo. Further do you think I should cut War Marshalls for Instigator and the Wort for a second Chieftain, if I add Instigators?
There are several lists posted in this thread without the blue splash, which work really well. I suggest you try one of these and see from there.

[ScatmanX]

I think a build with 4 Badlands and 4 Auntie's Hovel is more likely to be able to produce :2::b: lategame than a build with 3 Badlands and 7 fetchlands.
I really don't think so. Being able to search for basics, and only searching for a Dual when you need it it awesome. Fetchlands give you choices, Auntie's Hovel take them away from you.
There are also decks that you don't need your splash, like mirror goblins or Merfolk, but they do run Wastelands. With Fetch, you can go for the basics, while with Hovel you open yourself to Wastes even if you don't have/want to.

Also, the "hiding the splash color" GoboLord pointed out is quite useful sometimes, leading to poor SB'ing G2 from the opponent.

[Sinkhole]

There are several lists posted in this thread without the blue splash, which work really well. I suggest you try one of these and see from there.

Ok, thank you. I`ll do that. But what do you think of Bolts, are they still viable or outdated now?
And would a single Wort make sense without Mogg War Marshall?

[ScatmanX]

Ok, thank you. I`ll do that. But what do you think of Bolts, are they still viable or outdated now?
And would a single Wort make sense without Mogg War Marshall?
Bolts depend on your meta.
If you play against a lot of agroo usually (zoo, goblins, merfolk), than it is useful. If not, then it is not so good.
Wort is good even without MWM, since his best targets are Gempalm, WW, Matron and Ringleader...

[Skeggi]

I really don't think so. Being able to search for basics, and only searching for a Dual when you need it it awesome. Fetchlands give you choices, Auntie's Hovel take them away from you.
But there are also situations when you have to fetch to Badlands, in these situations, chances are you'll run out of black mana at lategame, since you only have 3-4 sources. But granted, I do like the options fetchlands provide. I'm still sticking with Auntie's Hovel though :tongue:

[GoboLord]

Ok, I'll test it with 4 Badlands , 4 Hovels, 0 Fetches on the tourney tommorow and let you know if Wasteland was really prolematic.

[bakofried]

Hmm....I'm torn between the 4 Chieftains (and 4 mountains) and 2 WW, 1 Gempalm, 1 SGC (and 4 fetches). Any ideas? Can I have any testimonials concerning Goblin Chieftain?

[GoboLord]

A decklist would be helpful to help you with your problem, right now I#m not sure if I get you right.

[L10]

Hello. I use to play MtG back in 2004 and my friends got me interested in this game again two months ago. I just recently discovered this board and would like to thank GoboLord for his concise summary of the current goblin metagame, being an old goblin player myself.

I just have one question though, is it worth splashing black Warren Weirding? Against aggro decks, it does not hit the creatures you want to hit, like Gempalm Incinerator or Stingscourger. It does not provide card advantage, again, like Gempalm Incinerator or Stingscourger. For Gempalm Incinerator, you get to draw a card. For Stingscourger, you get to use Aether Vial him in to send an opponent creature back and block another creature. Against a fellow goblin deck, it is just card disadvantage because they will most likely sacrifice a useless goblin (Goblin Matron, Mogg War Marshal, Lackey in late game, etc). I just do not find a value for Warren Wierding unless the creature has protection or shroud and is the only creature my opponent controls. The only use in Gobolord's summary is that I can multiply my own goblins, which I hardly find useful, especially it being a sorcery and not an instant. Am I using Warren Weirding wrong? It might be my mentality towards that card.

Here is my current list. A critique is appreciated but not needed. I am solely splashing black for Perish and green for Krosan Grip. I do own two Warren Weirdings and would like to grock it eventually since every deck splash black uses it.

Lands (22)
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Core (26)

Others (12)
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator

Sideboard
3 Krosan Grip
3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Thorn of Amethyst

Collection worth noting:
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Mogg War Marshal
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Warren Weirding
3 Virtue's Ruin
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Mogg Fanatic - Worthless now due to new rules, from what I have heard.
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

And Mental Misstep looks nasty but I don't find it terrifying like most people. With Mogg Fanatic gone, there are only two one mana cost cards worth using, Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey. Both of which are useless in the late games anyway. It might affect other decks more, such as white weenies with their Swords to Plowshare and Mother of Runes, which does matter even in late games, but not us. Just my opinion though.

Thanks.

[GoboLord]

I just have one question though, is it worth splashing black Warren Weirding? Against aggro decks, it does not hit the creatures you want to hit, like Gempalm Incinerator or Stingscourger. It does not provide card advantage, again, like Gempalm Incinerator or Stingscourger. For Gempalm Incinerator, you get to draw a card. For Stingscourger, you get to use Aether Vial him in to send an opponent creature back and block another creature. Against a fellow goblin deck, it is just card disadvantage because they will most likely sacrifice a useless goblin (Goblin Matron, Mogg War Marshal, Lackey in late game, etc). I just do not find a value for Warren Wierding unless the creature has protection or shroud and is the only creature my opponent controls. The only use in Gobolord's summary is that I can multiply my own goblins, which I hardly find useful, especially it being a sorcery and not an instant. Am I using Warren Weirding wrong? It might be my mentality towards that card.


First of all: Welcome back, fellow Warchief.
I find your list is very good!
My summary on Warren Weriding is actually painted by my personal oppinion on the card: I just don't like it. This does not mean that it's bad at all!
WW is very meta dependend. It's a good choice as a 1-off if you don't know what decks you will face. You could cut a Goblin Tinkerer for 1 Weirding (Tinkerer is not too important when you have K.Grips in SB).
WW is better than Stinger against Tempo Threshold (and against decks with few creatures in general, like Aggro Loam, The Rock and Reanimator).

[L10]

Oh, okay. That make sense. I have Tinkerer on my main deck in case of Stoneforge Mystic users (SoFi and Jitte makes me sad), artifact decks with Wurmcoil Engine and Myr Battlesphere, and Affinity decks, which are a norm in my meta, and random annoying artifacts like Sensei's Divining Top. I have Stinger in my MD because I can't find space for him in my sideboard, and there are a couple Emrakul decks in my meta.

I think another reason why I do not like WW is because I only have two Badlands, which my friends gave to me as gifts, along with Taiga and the fetch lands. Those lands are too expensive for my blood. So if I want to use WW, I have to purposely fetch for Badlands, which may get destroyed by Wasteland. Perish is absolutely worth splashing for though, especially against Progenitus decks, Zoo decks, and elves. I also like green for Krosan Grip against Moat, Humility, Propaganda, Aluren, and Enchantress.

Anyways, thanks again. I was really disappointed that there were no new goblins in this set. But my one friend didn't get new Merfolks either. :laugh: But he did get Mental Misstep...

[Humphrey]

im running a basic swamp in my br list and its stil very good

[bakofried]

I'm using the list Vandalize posted a bit back, except with two mountains in place of Moxen.

[Vandalize]

I'm using the list Vandalize posted a bit back, except with two mountains in place of Moxen.

It's a nice list, but better with the Chrome Moxes. A possibility of a T1 Warren Instigator, Null Rod, or Chalice @1 is really nice. I've already played double Lackey/double Vial T1, haha.

Running 4 Chieftain is really fine, when they go along with Warren Instigator, because pumped up Instigators can pull a good damage or trade for a lot of big guys. A full set of Chieftains also help Rb Goblins (that usually don't have an out to Engineered Plague) a pseudo-solution against this trouble enchantment.

You might already know this, but let's point out for who doesn't: let's assume you're attacking with a Warchief, a Piledriver and a WI:

That's 2 + 5 + 2 = 9 total damage, in theory. But due to Double Strike, you can trigger WI's first strike to cheat Chieftain, so the first trigger hits for 1 damage, Chieftain enters the battlefield, giving his lord ability priority. So now, all your goblins are pumped for the second strike (normal strike). Now, your Warchief is 3/3, your Piledriver is 6/3, and your WI is 2/2. So you'll hit for 1 (first strike) + 3 + 6 + 2 = 12 damage.

[GoboLord]

Ok, I'll test it with 4 Badlands , 4 Hovels, 0 Fetches on the tourney tommorow and let you know if Wasteland was really prolematic.

Hmm I went to a tourney yesterday to test the manabase named above.

I lost 5 out of 9 games because my Hovels/Badlands were wasted. In all 5 games I was unable to get up to 3 lands.
In 1 of the remaining 4 games I had to Waste my own Hovel in order to not lose to Price of Progress (which would have dealt 8 dmg otherwise!!!).

Conclusion: I'll never run Hovels again - they were horrible. Plus, my MUs seemed to punish me for that very descision: New Horizons, Junk, Lands and Burn.

[Vandalize]

Hmm I went to a tourney yesterday to test the manabase named above.

I lost 5 out of 9 games because my Hovels/Badlands were wasted. In all 5 games I was unable to get up to 3 lands.
In 1 of the remaining 4 games I had to Waste my own Hovel in order to not lose to Price of Progress (which would have dealt 8 dmg otherwise!!!).

Conclusion: I'll never run Hovels again - they were horrible. Plus, my MUs seemed to punish me for that very descision: New Horizons, Junk, Lands and Burn.

Ouch, that's bad...

My meta is full of Team America, NLT and New Horizons. So playing fetches means running into Stifle. That's why Hovel works fine for me. And the damage from fetches is also not welcome against Zoo.

[GoboLord]

Ouch, that's bad...

My meta is full of Team America, NLT and New Horizons. So playing fetches means running into Stifle. That's why Hovel works fine for me. And the damage from fetches is also not welcome against Zoo.

Uhm, Stifle against a Fetchland is actually good for us, since they can't use it against Lackey, Matron, Ringleader and SGC then.
Plus, all of those decks run Wastelands too. So, do as you wish but running 8 Dual-Lands (and not being able to dodge Wastelands) in those MUs is very devastating.

[Vandalize]

Uhm, Stifle against a Fetchland is actually good for us, since they can't use it against Lackey, Matron, Ringleader and SGC then.
Plus, all of those decks run Wastelands too. So, do as you wish but running 8 Dual-Lands (and not being able to dodge Wastelands) in those MUs is very devastating.

I disagree in 1 point: you use fetches to grab basics, as well. So running into stifle means manascrew. And those Tempo decks manabase are all non-basics (they might have 2 basics?) and our Wastelands are effective against them, as well. They won't stifle lackey because they usually have plenty of removal/counterspell for it. But sure, late game Ringleaders are better.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Hmm....I'm torn between the 4 Chieftains (and 4 mountains) and 2 WW, 1 Gempalm, 1 SGC (and 4 fetches). Any ideas? Can I have any testimonials concerning Goblin Chieftain?

I'm a huge proponent of Goblin Chieftain and posted a list recently where I cut my 4th Goblin Warchief for a 4th Goblin Chieftain. The consensus was that I was mistaken to do so :smile:

In a deck using 4 Warren Instigator I would increase the number of Chieftains because of the obvious advantages of buffing your doublestriker. Chrome Mox is another reason to up the Chieftain count. Swinging turn 2 with a 2/2 Goblin Lackey is better than swinging with a 1/1 Lackey. There are some nice benefits in using Chieftain if you play 3 Siege-Gang Commander too.

The lists posted recently are light on removal which hurts against creature based strategies but is better against lists we can't interact with anyway. I'm switching my list back to 6-8 removal pieces and considering the black splash now. The role of Chieftain in my list will likely be back to a 1-of in case of the mirror (which is extremely likely in my meta) and against Engineered Plague. In summary, Goblin Chieftain works in the right build. What are your other 8 flex spots?


On fetchlands vs Auntie's Hovel: Wow GoboLord that sucks! I actually expected you to come back and report favorably on using the Hovels... I hate losing 1 life per mountain but know how much of a benefit basics are in this format... We have a number of people who have a lot of success using non-basics. I'll probably end up testing both.

[GoboLord]

On fetchlands vs Auntie's Hovel: Wow GoboLord that sucks! I actually expected you to come back and report favorably on using the Hovels... I hate losing 1 life per mountain but know how much of a benefit basics are in this format... We have a number of people who have a lot of success using non-basics. I'll probably end up testing both.

Actually it's only Skeggi + Vandalize advocating Hovels. But you are right: go ahead and test them yourself. As I figured out yesterday it's not a good idea to only rely on other people's testing-results and oppinions.

[Lejay]

Running Auntie's hovels or more fetches is primarily meta dependant.
I have been using hovels a lot in general and was very happy about saving my life total. However since i feel that with the printing of mental misstep, stifle will see a decrease in play (both because it's replaced by MM and MM counters it) I moved to 5 basics 7 fetchlands manabase. Also my latest lists run mental misstep, so I have some protection against it.

[Lejay]

Double post

[Skeggi]

I lost 5 out of 9 games because my Hovels/Badlands were wasted. In all 5 games I was unable to get up to 3 lands.
In 1 of the remaining 4 games I had to Waste my own Hovel in order to not lose to Price of Progress (which would have dealt 8 dmg otherwise!!!).

Conclusion: I'll never run Hovels again - they were horrible. Plus, my MUs seemed to punish me for that very descision: New Horizons, Junk, Lands and Burn.
I was just about to tell you, but I was too hungover this weekend - I've been playing quite some games on Magic Online last weekend and lost several games because of this. Looks like all of a sudden it is a problem! Crap hovels, I'm kicking them out! :wink:

I'm just not sure if I should run 3 or 4 Badlands and 7 or 8 fetches to run along them.


Actually it's only Skeggi + Vandalize advocating Hovels. But you are right: go ahead and test them yourself. As I figured out yesterday it's not a good idea to only rely on other people's testing-results and oppinions.
Well, not me anymore, those things stink. I guess I always used to play in a Hovel-friendly meta. But now, they've proven to be terribad.

[mossivo1986]

Running Auntie's hovels or more fetches is primarily meta dependant.
I have been using hovels a lot in general and was very happy about saving my life total. However since i feel that with the printing of mental misstep, stifle will see a decrease in play (both because it's replaced by MM and MM counters it) I moved to 5 basics 7 fetchlands manabase. Also my latest lists run mental misstep, so I have some protection against it.

this is the wrong logic. MM doesn't replace stifle, it makes stifles better. The decks packing stifle want to stop you from devloping. blue decks use ponder, brainstorm, sometimes vial, always fetches and usually have very little way of developing a hand without a kantrip or two. stopping brainstorms and fetches is fine. Decls are cutting daze right now; because daze is just getting worse and worse as the metagame plays more nobles, bials, tombs and other daze answers.

[Malchar]

On Warren Weirding, it may be meta-dependent. When the card was released, the meta looked like thresh thresh thresh, and being able to kill Tarmogoyf was tech. Warren Weirding was like the second coming of Christ for Goblin decks. However, if your meta doesn't have much Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker, you probably don't need it. You can move it to the sideboard if you want and just run a couple Badlands + Fetch. Personally, I prefer not to run fetchlands because I always seem to get blown out by Stifle. Not sure if the logic actually holds up, since Stifle is perhaps even more devastating when they point it at the other cards in the Goblins deck, but I can't even cast those if I'm losing land.

[Nessaja]

I don't know what thresh players people are playing against, but when it came to the point that they can stifle SGC or Ringleader they very likely lost already. As a stifle deck I wouldn't want goblins to have permanent mana sources if I can somehow stop it. The "fetches aren't stifled" or "it's good when our fetches are stifled" only holds true when you resolved a Aether Vial in which case it probably doesn't matter what your opponent does, unless it's Pyroclasmisng(?) every turn.

[L10]

On Warren Weirding, it may be meta-dependent. When the card was released, the meta looked like thresh thresh thresh, and being able to kill Tarmogoyf was tech. Warren Weirding was like the second coming of Christ for Goblin decks. However, if your meta doesn't have much Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker, you probably don't need it. You can move it to the sideboard if you want and just run a couple Badlands + Fetch. Personally, I prefer not to run fetchlands because I always seem to get blown out by Stifle. Not sure if the logic actually holds up, since Stifle is perhaps even more devastating when they point it at the other cards in the Goblins deck, but I can't even cast those if I'm losing land.

Actually, against decks with Tarmogoyf, I normally sideboard in Perish since they would sacrifice less quality creatures anyways. WW just never, or rarely ever, hit the creature I want, from experience. However, the other day, I was fighting against a guy with The Gate deck. The guy had a proxy Phyrexian Obliterator. I wished I had WW. Phyrexian Obliterator is literally a Moat that can swing for 5 at any moment. It stalled me for a good three turns. My only answer was to bring in Stingscourger, make a quick swing, and finish him off with the Prospector - Commander - Sharpshooter combo, which I love. Luckily, I was able to answer his Jitte with my Tinkerer early on or I would have easily lost the game. I am considering to sideboard WW though because my deck currently has no answers for deck like The Gate. Then again, I can't sideboard against everything.

By the way, why is splashing for white so unpopular now? It has the best creature removal (Sword to Plowshare) and a decent answer to artifacts and enchantments (Disenchant), both of which seems important. Though, Sword to Plowshare does not answer Progenitus. I vaguely remember white being a popular splash for Goblins before I quit.

[ScatmanX]

By the way, why is splashing for white so unpopular now? It has the best creature removal (Sword to Plowshare) and a decent answer to artifacts and enchantments (Disenchant), both of which seems important. Though, Sword to Plowshare does not answer Progenitus. I vaguely remember white being a popular splash for Goblins before I quit.
Because now exist a great removal spell in Black, that is a goblin, and Green got the best anti-artifact/enchantament in form of Krosan Grip, or faster one in form of Nature's claim. Also, Orim's Chant is outdated as a form of fighting combo.
The W splash sure is viable though.

[pater]

I was just about to tell you, but I was too hungover this weekend - I've been playing quite some games on Magic Online last weekend and lost several games because of this. Looks like all of a sudden it is a problem! Crap hovels, I'm kicking them out! :wink:

I'm just not sure if I should run 3 or 4 Badlands and 7 or 8 fetches to run along them.


Well, not me anymore, those things stink. I guess I always used to play in a Hovel-friendly meta. But now, they've proven to be terribad.
Hovels only held their place in my deck until I could afford Badlands. My current setup is 4x Badlands, 4x Bloodstained Mire, and 2x Arid Mesa with a handful of mountains. I like having 6 fetchers, the life loss doesn't bother me; and if you're playing against Wastelands just grab your basics if you can get by without black.

[Malchar]

Actually, against decks with Tarmogoyf, I normally sideboard in Perish since they would sacrifice less quality creatures anyways. WW just never, or rarely ever, hit the creature I want, from experience. However, the other day, I was fighting against a guy with The Gate deck. The guy had a proxy Phyrexian Obliterator. I wished I had WW. Phyrexian Obliterator is literally a Moat that can swing for 5 at any moment. It stalled me for a good three turns. My only answer was to bring in Stingscourger, make a quick swing, and finish him off with the Prospector - Commander - Sharpshooter combo, which I love. Luckily, I was able to answer his Jitte with my Tinkerer early on or I would have easily lost the game. I am considering to sideboard WW though because my deck currently has no answers for deck like The Gate. Then again, I can't sideboard against everything.

By the way, why is splashing for white so unpopular now? It has the best creature removal (Sword to Plowshare) and a decent answer to artifacts and enchantments (Disenchant), both of which seems important. Though, Sword to Plowshare does not answer Progenitus. I vaguely remember white being a popular splash for Goblins before I quit.

WW is better than Stp. The tribal synergy is extremely valuable, they don't gain any life, and it kills progenitus/emrakul. Yea they can sac random weenies, but this is usually ok anyway. You still trade 1 for 1, and every weenie is going to be a blocker eventually. In fact, most "weenies" will kill any goblin outright and trade with a piledriver anyway, so whether you hit a goyf or a trinket mage with WW isn't that big of a deal.

Black also gives you cabal therapy and other things which can deal with combo. I don't think Chant is that great anyway. Combo is always going to be an uphill battle for goblins until we get a tribal answer.

As for my original statement, WW first started seeing play against those decks where the creature base looked like 4x goyf, 4x goose, 2x fatty (because that was the meta). In this scenario, WW always hit something valuable since even the smallest one has shroud anyway. Nowadays with stuff like noble hierarch floating around, WW has gotten worse.

[L10]

Thanks ScatmanX and Malchar for your help. I decided to take out Taiga in favor for more Badlands to have a more consistent black mana source and WW now feels less restrictive, since I am less worried about Wasteland. Here is my current list. I tried it out yesterday and is actually doing pretty well. I do not have Cabal Therapy but Duress seems to work fine for me.

Lands (22)
3 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
7 Fetch Lands

Core (26)

Others (12)
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Weirding

Sideboard
1 Boardtusk Liege
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Duress

Something I noticed between black splash vs. green splash is that black has better aggro control, but requires more devotion towards the mana base and has no answers against powerful enchantments. Green on the other hand pretty much plays like mono red. I never have to search for Taiga unless I need it for Krosan Grip in the late game, which allows me to dodge Wastelands for this mana hungry deck. However, it has mediocre aggro control against decks like Thresh, The Gate, etc.

Honestly, both have there ups and downs and I do not really know which I like more. Mono red seems to be weak while a dual black/green splash seems to be risky, which is why I was opted to splash for white. If I know I will not be facing a meta filled with Aluren, Enchantress, Moat, Humility, Propaganda, and Perish, I will probably go for black for a more aggressive approach.

Anyways, thanks again. I am still trying to learn the meta game.

[jrw1985]

Why has Goblins fallen off the scoreboard?

It's clear that Goblins is getting crowded out of the upper echelons of tournament Legacy. In StarCityGames Opens only 1 Goblin deck has made top 16 in the past 7 events. As one of the most prevalent decks in the field of every tournament it is a shame that we are seeing our beloved Goblins outmatched and outplayed.

Is it time to hang up the Goblin gloves? We're facing more and more interactive decks that can easily handle our 1-drops and we've seen a growing variety and and higher quality of combo decks which Goblins have no natural answer to. Affinity, Dredge, and Painterstone have board-state combos which we can hardly interact with, and High Tide and Elves have widened the array of Storm based combo decks we are potentially faced against.

It's becoming a lot harder for a deck that doesn't run Force of Will to deal with the punches coming from every angle.

I'm not quite willing to concede that Goblins is no longer playable, but it needs some help. Fast. I for one am banking on Mental Misstep mainboard giving Gobbos some more outs against the hyper-interactive and combo-heavy decks running around these days. Then, I'm going to pray to the lords of WotC that some Legacy worthy goblins get printed soon. The deck has barely changed since Invasion block, and could really use some new blood to stay competitive. Chieftain and Instigator were fine, but nothing new or innovative. We need to see another Goblin card like Piledriver: Over-powered and underpriced. A straight-up automatic 4-of MD. A casting cost of 1R or less is essential too. But I don't see that on the horizon...

[ScatmanX]

When people realize Counterbalance is good again, this deck will see more results.

The thing is: You got it right. Almost all decks can respond our 1 drops now, and those that can't, simply don't care, and kill us turn 2-4.
Goblin is a "fair" deck, in my view, competing now where "unfair" decks are rampant.
Turn 1 Vial don't give us the safety it once did.

Another thing is that our builds may not be suited for the metagame too.
I remember running goblin lists with 7-9 removal spells MD. That meant the the deck was more geared toward killing the opponent turn 3-4, and not caring about much else. Now, decks play something like 4-5 removals MD, those being 4 Gempalm Incinerator, that only gets great past turn 3-4. Cards like MWM are like this too. Defensive. But they don't work all that well now. This was the type of card that worked great against Rock and Zoo, but now, that we have Junk and affinity, their decks got faster than our defenses, so it is clearly not working out.

I, for one, couldn't solve the puzzle, and switched to combo, while CB is gone.
Give it a few months, Goblins will come back to what it was.

OR, create something new, that can either "control" those faster decks, or either disrupt them enough to be able to race them.

(or, maybe I'm just talking rubbish... been away from the green dudes too long...)

[Guy I Don't Know]

This is my philosophy with goblins: Just kill them. Trying to react to opponent seems mediocre. That is why I am trying to play monored tempo goblins.

4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Stingscourger
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Incinerator
2 Warren Instigator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Lighting Crafter
4 Goblin Ringleader
16 Mountains
4 Wasteland
3 Mutalvault

SB:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Patron of the Akki
2 Warren Instigator
2 Mogg Fanatic

Explanation of bad card choices
4 Goblin Chieftain- I have no idea why people still play 4 Goblin Warchief. Instead of playing more spells you get to beat face for more damage. Maybe somebody can enlighten me.

2 Warren Instigator- seems good, even better with chieftain.

3 Mutavault- I rather bring the beats than tap someone's land with rishadan port.....

3 Lightning Bolt- Gets creatures through, Messes up math, and goes to the dome. Wish it was goblin.

1 Lightning Crafter- Optional Slot for late game (Standstill breaker)

2 Stingscourger- this guy is good, want to be able to search for second one and also increase probability that it is in my hand.

SB:
Warren Instigator is sided in vs deck with not many critters

Patron of the Akki is vs Firespout and non combo decks for dead cards

CotV- Random Jank (elves burn belcher etc.)

Mogg Fanatic- For dredge and goblin mirror (LOL! like that will happen)

[bakofried]

Less than 4 Goblin Warchief is a huge mistake. For someone claiming to play a "tempo" deck (whatever that means, with all the definitions out there), you fail to realize that playing spells for cheap is really good. Hasty, cheap Piledrivers win more games than people admit.

[Guy I Don't Know]

How often can you not play Piledriver for 2?

[bakofried]

Piledriver for 1 >>>>> Piledriver for 2. I would much rather be able to chain Goblins into a hasty horde than give 'em a Lord bonus.

[Humphrey]

Less than 4 Goblin Warchief is a huge mistake. For someone claiming to play a "tempo" deck (whatever that means, with all the definitions out there), you fail to realize that playing spells for cheap is really good. Hasty, cheap Piledrivers win more games than people admit.

Absolutely. Playing Matron and Piledriver for 1RR and attack immediately is pure speed.

About outdated Goblins, lets wait for NPH to shake the format. Maybe MM is the nail to our coffin or the keyspell to kill combo (with SB help in our Deck, but with tons of them being played generally)

But indeed id like to see another powerful goblin, not as degernated as Piledriver but an updatet Mogg Fanatic R 2/1 Sacs for 1dmg

[L10]

Goblin Arsonist is pretty much the updated Mogg Fanatic with the M10 rules. If he had the option to be sacrificed, he would have been perfect. Oh well.

[Vandalize]

Why has Goblins fallen off the scoreboard?

It's clear that Goblins is getting crowded out of the upper echelons of tournament Legacy. In StarCityGames Opens only 1 Goblin deck has made top 16 in the past 7 events. As one of the most prevalent decks in the field of every tournament it is a shame that we are seeing our beloved Goblins outmatched and outplayed.

Is it time to hang up the Goblin gloves? We're facing more and more interactive decks that can easily handle our 1-drops and we've seen a growing variety and and higher quality of combo decks which Goblins have no natural answer to. Affinity, Dredge, and Painterstone have board-state combos which we can hardly interact with, and High Tide and Elves have widened the array of Storm based combo decks we are potentially faced against.

It's becoming a lot harder for a deck that doesn't run Force of Will to deal with the punches coming from every angle.

I'm not quite willing to concede that Goblins is no longer playable, but it needs some help. Fast. I for one am banking on Mental Misstep mainboard giving Gobbos some more outs against the hyper-interactive and combo-heavy decks running around these days. Then, I'm going to pray to the lords of WotC that some Legacy worthy goblins get printed soon. The deck has barely changed since Invasion block, and could really use some new blood to stay competitive. Chieftain and Instigator were fine, but nothing new or innovative. We need to see another Goblin card like Piledriver: Over-powered and underpriced. A straight-up automatic 4-of MD. A casting cost of 1R or less is essential too. But I don't see that on the horizon...

That's just another reason to play "fast" goblins. Seems that chumpblocking with MWM, weird Skirk Shooter pseudo-combos and Rishadan Port's tricks are not working properly. On the other hand, Warren Instigators, Goblin Chieftains, and 3rd SGCs are still doing their best: winning games.

I've learned from a Zoo player the best strategy for dealing with those Control/Tempo decks. THREAT DENSITY are the key words. Let me explain in an easy way: "Oh! You countered my lackey? Ok, here's the Warren Instigator..Eh, you countered my WI? Here's the Goblin Chieftain."

This works better with Zoo, because if they just counter a Tarmogoyf, you just play another stupidly unfair fatty that beats for lots. BUT, it also works for Goblins. I've even tried to fit in 2 Fireblasts in my main deck, to make it a Goblin Sligh (wtf). They were fine, but it messed with Ringleaders late game (when you need the fireblast).

Perhaps the best way to make Goblins better is the aggro plan, and not giving a fuck about manascrewing hard, or controlish stuff.

[Amon Amarth]

Why has Goblins fallen off the scoreboard?

It's clear that Goblins is getting crowded out of the upper echelons of tournament Legacy. In StarCityGames Opens only 1 Goblin deck has made top 16 in the past 7 events. As one of the most prevalent decks in the field of every tournament it is a shame that we are seeing our beloved Goblins outmatched and outplayed.

Is it time to hang up the Goblin gloves? We're facing more and more interactive decks that can easily handle our 1-drops and we've seen a growing variety and and higher quality of combo decks which Goblins have no natural answer to. Affinity, Dredge, and Painterstone have board-state combos which we can hardly interact with, and High Tide and Elves have widened the array of Storm based combo decks we are potentially faced against.

It's becoming a lot harder for a deck that doesn't run Force of Will to deal with the punches coming from every angle.

I'm not quite willing to concede that Goblins is no longer playable, but it needs some help. Fast. I for one am banking on Mental Misstep mainboard giving Gobbos some more outs against the hyper-interactive and combo-heavy decks running around these days. Then, I'm going to pray to the lords of WotC that some Legacy worthy goblins get printed soon. The deck has barely changed since Invasion block, and could really use some new blood to stay competitive. Chieftain and Instigator were fine, but nothing new or innovative. We need to see another Goblin card like Piledriver: Over-powered and underpriced. A straight-up automatic 4-of MD. A casting cost of 1R or less is essential too. But I don't see that on the horizon...

I feel you. It certainly doesn't help that the deck has been around forever, everyone knows how to play against it and it never gets any love from from pros with the notable exception of Cedric Phillips. If you're having a hard time against the decks listed above then change your deck to beat them. Play more creature removal. Things like Lightning Bolt, Pyrokinesis, Goblin Sharpshooter and Sparksmith are all excellent MD cards if you're trying to beat decks with creatures. Sparksmith is really good against anything that doesn't pack burn and is pretty hilarious against many of the midrange decks. Playing against Dredge isn't as bad as you would think, especially with all the echo Goblins and and sometimes Skirk Prospector; you can remove Bridges at will. All that removal is also good against Affinity and Painter because, well, they play creatures. Elves is pretty fast but I dont think they can beat a resolved Sparksmith or a Pyrokinesis if you can follow it up with anything.

High Tide I'm not really worried about because of how expensive it is to build. This makes the deck pretty rare. Also, I think it is one of the decks to get hit hardest my Mental Misstep.

What would I play? Many control decks, which is basically Countertop, have fallen off the map. I don't really want to play Rishadan Ports anymore. I'd prolly play something like 18-20 Mountains and 4 Wastelands. This helps facilitate the Shattering Sprees in the sidebaord because they are pretty hard to get a lot of value out of them when you run 8 colorless lands. I'd move the Stingscourger to the sideboard depending on how many Emrakuls you expect. I don't know if I board for Storm Combo. At the SCG Opens its pretty popular so I don't think you can ignore it. I typically don't board more than 6 cards for storm which is usually some combo of Chalice and MBT. Dreadnought seems to be getting pretty popular so a singleton Tinkerer seems pretty solid and it can also eat SDT from the same deck.

I've been playing this deck since it was FCG. I've remember going through periods where this deck was dead, not placing, etc. Sometimes it was because of metagame shifts, new decks appearing, haters that wanna hate... the usual. I tend to ignore that feeling and I concentrate on finding trends in the metagame and try to adjust.

As for printing new Goblins I don't know why Wizards doesn't. There are always good Merfolk and Elf cards getting printed but Goblins hasn't gotten a staple in.. 5, 6 years? It's been awhile. I suspect it has a lot to do with Red just getting the shaft from the color pie but that's another conversation entirely.

[bakofried]

I feel you on the Red front, man. Kor Firewalker? Seriously? I know it didn't make waves in Legacy, but it was a hell of an annoying card in standard.
Here's the list I'm working with, as of now. It may be familiar; it's Tacosnape's old list, when he first started advocating Winstigator.
Mana:
4x Auntie's Hovel
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
4x Badlands
6x Mountain
4x Wasteland
Core:
[26]
Flex:
4x WW
2x Gempalm
1x Stingscourger
1x SGC
Side:
4x Pyrokinesis
4x Chalice
4x Leyline
3x Flex

[Humphrey]

That's just another reason to play "fast" goblins. Seems that chumpblocking with MWM, weird Skirk Shooter pseudo-combos and Rishadan Port's tricks are not working properly. On the other hand, Warren Instigators, Goblin Chieftains, and 3rd SGCs are still doing their best: winning games.

I've learned from a Zoo player the best strategy for dealing with those Control/Tempo decks. THREAT DENSITY are the key words. Let me explain in an easy way: "Oh! You countered my lackey? Ok, here's the Warren Instigator..Eh, you countered my WI? Here's the Goblin Chieftain."

This works better with Zoo, because if they just counter a Tarmogoyf, you just play another stupidly unfair fatty that beats for lots. BUT, it also works for Goblins. I've even tried to fit in 2 Fireblasts in my main deck, to make it a Goblin Sligh (wtf). They were fine, but it messed with Ringleaders late game (when you need the fireblast).

Perhaps the best way to make Goblins better is the aggro plan, and not giving a fuck about manascrewing hard, or controlish stuff.

Talking about Thread Density, i still prefer MWM over WI, especially if youre running Chieftains. It gives you 2 (virtually 3) 2/2 critters and Piledriver loves that too. Also MWM chumpblocks he still helps alot beating Zoo.

I dont understand the Rishadan Port hate. 4 are obv to much imo, but 2-3 are still great against a lot of decks.

[bakofried]

MWM isn't a threat - he stalls up the ground for a bit, buts that's all, and he's a defensive card, which we don't need right now. WI is far better at playing an aggressive role, and is much better as a two-drop follow-up if (more likely when) they deal with our 1-drop. And right now, we need threats more than we need Port, and WI is a better threat than MWM.

[Skeggi]

This is my philosophy with goblins: Just kill them. Trying to react to opponent seems mediocre. That is why I am trying to play monored tempo goblins.

2 Warren Instigator- seems good, even better with chieftain.

I like the philosphy of going all-in aggro and for the kill. Warren Instigator should be a 4-of in such a deck. A connecting Instigator often means a win.



As for printing new Goblins I don't know why Wizards doesn't. There are always good Merfolk and Elf cards getting printed but Goblins hasn't gotten a staple in.. 5, 6 years? It's been awhile. I suspect it has a lot to do with Red just getting the shaft from the color pie but that's another conversation entirely.

Warren Instigator was a pretty good shot at a Legacy Goblin staple if you ask me. Goblin Wardriver is another shot at a staple, it's just not good enough to make the cut. So to me, it seems like they are trying at least.

[Guy I Don't Know]

I like Skeggi and Vandalize's philosophy. I don't want to chump block in my games. I think it is better to counterattack if they attack you. Develop the board with creatures and make a scenario where they hold back creatures to block and you they can bounce/burn the blockers and make a productive attack. Instead of having MWM to block three times, how about have WI so if they attack, it is unfavorable? I think MWM is fine if everyone is playing zoo, I find there are many match ups where they are lackluster. Also, Warren Instigator is good, if not better than MWM, with chieftain too.

[FoxBlade]

I've been testing my deck vs. Merfolk (with mental misstep). I think I need to do more testing but so far the MU has definitely gotten harder. I used to just auto win vs. Merfolk - but now the MU is about 50/50.

Vials getting countered really hurts - lackey getting countered doesn't hurt as much, but losing my vials just takes a huge punch away from this MU. The vs. Merfolk MU isn't impossible to win or anything, but its definitely feels a lot more even now.

[bakofried]

Yeah, that MU's slowly been shifting towards even for a while now. People realized Standstill blows and now we don't have that edge, worse, they've replaced them with threats. Mental Misstep isn't going to help us here.

[Humphrey]

I like Skeggi and Vandalize's philosophy. I don't want to chump block in my games. I think it is better to counterattack if they attack you. Develop the board with creatures and make a scenario where they hold back creatures to block and you they can bounce/burn the blockers and make a productive attack. Instead of having MWM to block three times, how about have WI so if they attack, it is unfavorable? I think MWM is fine if everyone is playing zoo, I find there are many match ups where they are lackluster. Also, Warren Instigator is good, if not better than MWM, with chieftain too.

In conjuncion with Piledriver and/or Warchief MWM is the better card. Getting 3 threats for RR instead of one lousy 1/1..
WI sucks as topdeck. And it can be chumped with every creature ever played, where MWM needs 2. Often you dont even have something to cheat into play which couldnt be played/vialed anyway.
Yes, MWM can be a defensive card, but thats an advantage. Ive won many games with MWM smashing faces or getting a plow to avoid a 2nd token.
Maybe WI is getting better with MM in the format because you lose Vial and Lackey more often.

@Foxblade: Did you run MM yourself?

[bakofried]

Are you kidding me? Warren Instigator is a much better topdeck than a pair of vanilla 1/1's. Also, no one cares if you MWM hits the table. He's good against Zoo and hyperaggressive decks, but Warren Instigator forces them to play defensively, thereby saving you life.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Thank you bakofried. Humphrey seems delusion/troll, I don't know which... What do you think are some proactive sb cards vs merfolk? Too bad there isn't an uncounterable boil :D.

Also if they wanted to give a boost to goblins they could unban goblin recruiter :)

[Humphrey]

Well, if WI is such an awesome card, why everybody kicked him out after the first tests? Whatever, I might try him again in the MM Meta, but so far im fine with MWM.

About proactive merfolk, idk. I used 3-4 Pyroblast and Pyrokinesis so far, thats reactive but effective :D P.Needle can help, too. (Mutavaults, Commander, Jitte, Vial). 2 1 spells, though.

With some greensplash, Choke might be useful.

[FoxBlade]

In conjuncion with Piledriver and/or Warchief MWM is the better card. Getting 3 threats for RR instead of one lousy 1/1..
WI sucks as topdeck. And it can be chumped with every creature ever played, where MWM needs 2. Often you dont even have something to cheat into play which couldnt be played/vialed anyway.
Yes, MWM can be a defensive card, but thats an advantage. Ive won many games with MWM smashing faces or getting a plow to avoid a 2nd token.
Maybe WI is getting better with MM in the format because you lose Vial and Lackey more often.

@Foxblade: Did you run MM yourself?

No, I just don't feel that mental misstep has a place in goblins. I tried playing with it a few times, but when I did - if I didn't have it in my opening hand it was worthless and even then it was really only good to help put out vial or lackey and only if they didn't have another counter, which they almost always had.

If I wasn't playing vs. a deck that packed counters it totally sucked, because I almost ALWAYS wished it was something else game 1.

Anyway I have to agree with bakofried - WI is fantastic.

Here's my arguments for instigator:

If he resolves and hits your opponent, its almost an auto-win and he only costs rr! I think that alone is reason enough to run him, but if that isn't enough reason to run him, consider:

He has double strike.

He can potentially tutor up any goblin with matron and put it directly into play uncounterable.

He can give you cards and allow you to play a goblin among them with ringleader, again uncounterable.

He gets around mental misstep.

He makes your opponents play defensively and/or makes your opponents use their counters/removal spells on him instead of our other threats.

I don't think MWM has nearly as strong of an interaction that WI does with the rest of the deck. It powers some of our other cards sure, but it doesn't win by itself nor is it a threat that our opponent have to answer. Instigator powers cards in our deck and can outright win games by himself.

As Bakofried mentioned as well Instigator allows us to play aggressively while our opponent plays defensively around him.


Well, if WI is such an awesome card, why everybody kicked him out after the first tests? Whatever, I might try him again in the MM Meta, but so far im fine with MWM.

Ironically, the same thing happened with MWM...

[FoxBlade]

Delete, for some reason forum double posted....

[Pinoy Goblin]

We have discussed and debated before over MWM vs. WI. For a control meta WI is usefull but for an aggro meta MWM is better. But for me MWM is much better for its synergy to sharpshooter,piledriver,gemphalm,warchief,chieftain,skirk prospector, etc... It can be used as delaying blockers vs aggrodecks until we established our board and also destroying bridge from below vs. dredge. If you run 4 ports and 4 wastelands which is my built its impossible to run WI mainboard but if you only run 4 colorless plus 2 chrome moxes then WI/Chieftain is good. But for me again with testing and results, MWM is my MVP:cool:

[bakofried]

Well, it must be nice to have such a known meta where classic Goblins still works, but that doesn't cut it elsewhere. Now, I certainly don't think Humphrey's a troll, but he wasn't just kicked out after initial tests. Tacosnape was a huge advocate for him, quite a while ago (you can see his build on one of my posts, I'm using it now) and, to be fair, we weren't using him correctly. He warps games that he is in, which is a huge plus, something which MWM does not.

[Vandalize]

Wew, another victory :D

1st place on a 32 players mini-tournament on my local store, 5-0 for the lol :D

My list is the same on the post #643.

Matches:

1) UWr CounterTop (Humilty and Planeswalker stuff)

1st game - T1 Vial, followed by a second Vial T2 + Wasteland on Tundra. WI connected Matron -> SGC. Eh, unpacked my sideboard... (only for mindgaming, because I didn't board anything at all).

2nd game - He said I could start (I don't really know why). T1 Vial. He goes for T1 Pithing Needle. T2 Piledriver, ate a Daze. T3 Warchief, ate a Force of Will. T4 Ringleader, resolved, getting me 1 gempalm and lands. He goes for Humility T4 and Elspeth T5, pretty much over.

3rd game - T1 Lackey, no response (he goes for T1 Top). Lackey -> SGC -> Wasteland on Volcanic Island. Kept punching until he reaches 3 life (but my lackey was StP). He plays Firespout, but I sac a token with SGC in response, getting him to 1. I play the fourth Land, and played a topdecked Ringleader, he actives Top, revealing a Force of Will, he flips the Top getting the FoW and suicide for the lol.

2) Affinity (usual one with speed and Glimmervoids)

1st game - He won the roll and had the nuts. Finishes me off by turn 3, while my Vial @2 is just sitting there for nothing.

-4 AEther Vial
+2 Shattering Spree
+2 Null Rod

2nd game - He mulls to 5 and starts slow. My lackey connects bringing Warchief, played Piledriver and wasted his Great Furnace. That was pretty much it, he didn't play another land, and his 0cc guys couldn't hold for long.

3rd game - He goes for T1 triple Ornithopter, Great Furnace -> Springleaf Drum + Lotus Petal -> Cranial Plating (I almost cried). But I topdecked a Chrome Mox and played T1 Null Rod for the win :D

3) Dredge (non-LED one)

1st game - He goes slow with DDD (draw, discard end of turn, dredge) while my T1 WI goes nuts on Ringleader -> Chieftain -> Piledriver.

+4 Leyline of the Void
-4 AEther Vial

2nd game - I start with LotV, and he shows 2 Ancient Grudges in his hand and scooped (I didn't play any Badlands/Hovel, so he wasn't expecting a LotV :D)

4) Merfolk (mono-blue)

1st game - T1 WI -> Warchief + Piledriver -> Topdecked another Piledriver, and that was it, lol.

2nd game - We both go for T1 Vial. Game starts off slow, but when I manage to get some board position, he steals my Chieftain with Sower of Temptation and next turn plays 2 LoA (1 off vial, 1 hardcasted) and a Jitte. Damn...

+2 Shattering Spree
-1 Warren Instigator
-1 Goblin Cheiftain

3rd game - T1 Lackey, he goes T1 Cursecatcher. Gempalmed his Cursecatcher and Lackey -> Chieftain. Turn 3 I played another Chieftain and beated the crap out of him.

5) Merfolk (white splash)

1st game - Long and boring game. He had a lot of Swords to Plowshares and counterspells for every Lackey/Piledriver I played. But a Ringleader revealed 4 Goblins for my pure happiness and I managed to beat him with some Chieftain, Warchief and Ringleader with a little help from Stingscourger bouncing a max leveled Coralhelm Commander.

+2 Shattering Spree (I saw his Jitte get 8 counters on his first round)
-1 Warren Instigator
-1 Warren Weirding (don't know why I boarded this out)

2nd game - We both go for T1 Vial. He plays T2 Jitte, vial @1. I waste his Tundra and play a Lackey off vial. He plays no lands, but goes for a LoA off vial. I draw my second Mountain, and play Shattering Spree for Vial + Jitte :D. He can't manage to get another blue source (he had an Island and a Mutavault) and I finish him with double Piledriver. After the game, he showed me 2 Coralhelm Commanders stuck in his hand, HAHAHA SWEET WASTELAND.

That was pretty much it, I was very, very lucky on all my matches, despite some dice rolls. Won 50R$ (brazilian money) and a set of foil pre-release Wurmcoil Engine, which granted me another 40R$ :D

@GoboLord My Hovel didn't face any Wasteland during the whole tournament, I'm still sticking with those.

[bakofried]

Still wishing for Pulverize? As a side note, Spree is stronger against StaxXx shell decks, where Pulverize is fairly poor against 3sphere.

[antonbystedt]

Okey, so i just started to play magic again after some months break and still rolling Goblins as usuall. I'm using the same list as i've been very succesfull with in tournaments, has the meta changed much since the Survival ban? Because that was the last time i played, right before the survival ban.
Maybe you could give me a quick sum up of what important changes that have happen? I've seen much more High Tide and Combo decks than before, so maybe i'll play my secret Instigator Tech list :P

Anyways, here is my list:

MD;
4 Aether Vial
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Warren Weirding

5 Mountain
3 Auntie's Hovel
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SB;
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Perish

[Skeggi]

(...)
3rd game - He goes for T1 triple Ornithopter, Great Furnace -> Springleaf Drum + Lotus Petal -> Cranial Plating (I almost cried). But I topdecked a Chrome Mox and played T1 Null Rod for the win :D
(...)
1st game - He goes slow with DDD (draw, discard end of turn, dredge) while my T1 WI goes nuts on Ringleader -> Chieftain -> Piledriver.
(...)
1st game - T1 WI -> Warchief + Piledriver -> Topdecked another Piledriver, and that was it, lol.
Nice! Looks like Chrome Mox won you these games.

@GoboLord My Hovel didn't face any Wasteland during the whole tournament, I'm still sticking with those.
I'm unsure, I completely got Wasted on MTGO because of the Hovels. Would fetch into Mountain/Badlands have lost you any games?


Still wishing for Pulverize? As a side note, Spree is stronger against StaxXx shell decks, where Pulverize is fairly poor against 3sphere.
It certainly looks like Shattering Spree gets the job done.


Maybe you could give me a quick sum up of what important changes that have happen? I've seen much more High Tide and Combo decks than before, so maybe i'll play my secret Instigator Tech list :P
A quick sum up of what happened: all the cool kids play Warren Instigators and Chrome Moxen and win lots and lots of games. Only glee club still plays MWM.

[Humphrey]

I tested an Mox/Wi list last night and i dont know how you guys manage to get decent draws with that. Sometimes I have both in hand, but after the pitch not many useful goblins left to bring into play. Or I get WI/Mox as topdeck, which is crap. (WI a good topdeck, whos trolling here?)
Sorry, I still think this setup is more inconsistent than a classic build.
I remember a Discussion about Mox few years ago, this card was kicked, too.

[Guy I Don't Know]

I tried Chrome mox and found the same situation a lot (Pitching a card and then having less to play, being dead if not in opening hand). I think it depends on how much card disadvantage for tempo is your meta. Against affinity and the like i could see it being good.

[bakofried]

Humphrey, don't be a moron. The statement was Warren Instigator, as a topdeck, is better than Mogg War Marshall. We would all love to rip Siege-Gang Commanders, Goblin Ringleaders and Goblin Matrons all day, but we don't.

And really, I'm still on the fence concerning C. Mox. It doesn't look like a bad choice, but it just doesn't feel optimal to me. I dunno. Win another tournament and convince me. =D

[Guy I Don't Know]

I remember a Discussion about Mox few years ago, this card was kicked, too.

Card values change over a few years... I played lava dart "a few years ago" in Goblins too! (before SGC was printed)

[Tacosnape]

I'm starting to think there's no good path to take this deck on, and that if Goblins gains any benefit at all it'll be from combo taking a huge hit out of the Mental Misstep shift.

Here are my early testing quick-hit thoughts:

1. I'm iffish on Mental Misstep in this deck. It's AMAZING in an opening hand. Protecting a Lackey, countering an opposing Lackey, stopping STP, stopping blockers, eating a Thoughtseize, stopping Mental Misstep. It's incredible. However, once that first turn is over, Goblins doesn't want to see it ever again. It wants more land and more guys. I can't help but wonder if MM is going to prove to be a sideboard card for Goblins.

2. I like Warren Instigator again. He's pretty good. Maybe not enough to run 4 of. Maybe not enough to run. But he's better now.

3. I don't think Goblins should be afraid to run 1-drops. I've added a single Tarfire and a couple Mogg Fanatics in a non-MM build and have been satisfied. The easy removal has been amazing against Hierarchs, Elves, Lavamancers, Confidants, Lackeys, you name it.

4. That said, I think if you start chickening out from 1-drops then you need to take Goblins on the Chalice of the Void path. Which is a risky and uncharted path to go, and I think there's better options if you want to go this way.

5. I'm not sure Goblins has a lot of time left in this format.

[Honorik]

After some testing the build with Menatl Misstep with RBg goblins I can say that the card is two edged sword just as Tacosnape say. But after all i believe that we don't have other option but to run it mainboard. Lets face it :

1. We need MM versus Merfolks - to counter their Vials and their MM. The match is still positive - they cannot deal so easy with the Piledrivers and the Ports for their Mutavaults. The match is positive as it was before MM.

2. We have better Zoo match now for sure. MM helps us to have Lackey connect countering their 1 mana drops and removal.

3. We have a harder match vs Counterbalance decks now, same with Landstill.

4. With Bant aggro decks - our match doesn't change much. We have a counter for their swords, mana dorks, while they have counter for our vials.

5. Dredge is the same match with the small difference we can now counter turn one imp or tribe.

6. TES and ANT decks are taking huge hit from now on and in my opinion those decks will not be so popular.

GP Providence will show I am right or wrong, but i expect at least 1 Goblin deck using MM in Top 16.

[Humphrey]

Card values change over a few years... I played lava dart "a few years ago" in Goblins too! (before SGC was printed)

Sure but the reasons Mox was dismissed are still actual. You dont want to throw buisness into it. And of course, the value of cards usually decrease over the years. Thx to powercreep.

@MM Im fine with it in the later turns (against most decks) because 1cc spot removal is everywhere, along with other annoying stuff like SDT.

Since im testing a monoR list with it atm, the lifeloss isnt an issue, but im not that happy running the deck w/o fetchlands. I get flooded more often and ringleader is worse too.

[ScatmanX]

Food Chain Goblins is the future of goblins in legacy! =D

[jrw1985]

Here's an idea. Tell me if I'm right or not.

Goblins can play Mental Misstep because Chrome Mox works in Goblins too.

What the hell?

Chrome Mox takes a Goblin out of your hand (either CM sits in your hand, dead, OR you play it and remove a card).
Mental Misstep takes a Goblin out of your hand (through sheer virtue of not being a Goblin)
Therefor, if decks with Chrome Mox are viable, decks with MM should be viable too.

I'm not saying you should run both in the same deck. That seems obviously bad.

I know MM has been talked into the ground, but I'm very interested to see how it works. I haven't had the time to play for the past month, so I'm excited to see how MM works in a Goblin MD.

[kinda]

Actually, chrome mox takes 2 goblins out of your hand if it's going to do anything, :D. I haven't actually tested it but I like mental misstep in goblins in theory. Protecting vial/lackey from misstep (now unfortunately important), protecting t3 warchief (big one), combos in opener with lackey (a 20% thing), hitting grim lavamancer+dredge discard outlets+dark ritual+lands broken 1 drops+high tide+opposing vial+top (remember cbalance has 8 vials outs now), as well as making the combo matchup doable by virtue of already having 4 relevant md spells...and what is it competing with? chrome mox? warren weirding? lightning bolt? c'mon now...

Edit: Side note...looks like I'll be playing goblins again on the 14th. Still deciding between swords and misstep, but definatley leaning towards missteps if I can get them. I've played goblins 4 times, once with Rb (went 3-4 got blown out by plague twice), Rw (5-2, 5-2, 4-3)...the last one was when vengevival became popular and I basically stopped playing this deck.

[Guy I Don't Know]

[Edit]
If we are playing mental mistep and fetches, might as well add at least one volcanic island to take less damage late game.

[Skeggi]

This thread clearly is for the traditional build with Aether Vial ([DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0). Let's not derail it by discussing a storm version, I suggest you make a different thread.

[ScatmanX]

This thread clearly is for the traditional build with Aether Vial ([DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0). Let's not derail it by discussing a storm version, I suggest you make a different thread.
Thats why I didn't post a list or anything.
Imo, Vial goblins now should run Misstep, or should run Chrome Mox. I don't see a list with neither being good in today's metagame...

Edit:
Ok, decided to post my list post misstep:

Mana:
(23)
4: Badlands, Fetch1, Fetch2, Wasteland.
5: Mountain
2: Chrome Mox

Core:
(26)

Other:
(11)
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

SB:
3 Pyroknesis
3 Perish
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Earwig Squad
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shattering Spree

- I don't expect Dredge to bee all that popular again, so I don't want to run grave-hate, but you can always do it, by taking out Squad/Spree/ReB.
- CotV+Squad (to remove bouncers)+ReB should be enough to handle Spiral Tide, and are good vs other combos too.
- The MD is already very good vs the new Merfolk builds. I don't even know what to side out to bring Knesis+ReB (suggestions?)
- This list is also solid vs tempo decks, that may be on the rise, and ok against Wx taxes/agroo builds (the more green guys they play, the better).
What do you guys think of this list?

edit 2: Maybe ReB is not very good right now, giving opponents more targets for their Missteps... =/
edit 3: Got it! 2x Magus of the Moon!
OR 2x Scald! That should take care of blue decks!

[Sinkhole]

I´ve decieded building up Goblins, but before have a question on my list. Could I play Lightning Bolts in a list with Warren Instigator and Chrome Mox, or wouldn`t it work, because of two much non Goblinspells, which weakens ringleader to much? And are 22 Lands with 2 Chrome Mox too much, or right? Here`s the list I`ve thoughted of building up. What do you think of it?

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
2 Siege Gang Commander
2 Warren Instigator
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Aether Vial
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Warren Weirding
2 Chrome Mox

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
7 Mountain

[Guy I Don't Know]

I play 24 lands 4 vial and 3 bolt as non goblin spells so 22 lands 2 mox 4 vial 4 bolt is very similar. I think i win more games having bolt then i lose to flipping bolt with ringleader. I am surprised you don't play one stingscourger. I would suggest testing one over the 4th bolt

[Sinkhole]

Hmm ok I`ll stesting a scourger over the 4. Bolt. Btw how much Instigator do you play in your list?
I ask because of I`ve seen lists, which playing 3 - 4 Instigators, but that seems a bit overkill too me.

And what do you guys think, is the Chrome Mox + Instigator plan deffenitly the way to go for the future, or
will traditional lists with ports and Mwm still have their place, maybe depending on the meta?

[TarmoCombo]

4. That said, I think if you start chickening out from 1-drops then you need to take Goblins on the Chalice of the Void path. Which is a risky and uncharted path to go, and I think there's better options if you want to go this way.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20049-Goblin-Stompy&highlight=goblin+stompy

[Nelis]

You could just as well add the 4 Mental Misstep instead of adding 3 Blood Moon and 4 Chalice and make it Goblin Stompy. And Chalice of the Void and Vials don't mix either.

[Vandalize]

Lol, Goblin Stompy is a joke. If you really think that MM will rain on your parade, just run Food Chain Goblins or another deck.

I gave up the black splash for a while, since my Warren Weirdings did nothing but feeding Tarmogoyfs lately... And went back to the Green splash (Eng. Plague is still being played, god damn it). But I just couldn't give up on my Warren Instigators that easily, so I tried to mix it a little bit.

This is the list I've reached:

Lands [22]

6 Mountain
7 R-Fetches
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
2 Chrome Mox

Core [26]

...

Others [12]

4 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Stingscourger
1 Gempalm Incinerator

Sideboard [15]

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Back to Nature
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Stingscourger

My sideboard is a little messed up. I tried to run 4 Pyrokinesis, but against green fatties, the second stingscourger seems pretty much better. The gravehate is splitted, I like it that way. Leyline of the Void is beautiful, but can't really place in a Green Splash (we can't even pitch it for Chrome Mox with good results) and Pithing Needle on Crypt/Relic is pretty awful against Dredge (which will get pretty popular when people start having a brain that actually thinks).

Singleton Gempalm, as usual. Why?
1) I don't play Mogg War Marshal, it's just there for an emergency fetch.
2) Lightning Bolt does the job better (I use it in the early game [when gempalms can't hit for more then 2], and it's a nice PICKLES SURPRISE lategame finisher).

And I swear I'll punch whoever talks about Lightning Bolt antisynergy with Ringleader, since you guys were trying 4 Mental Missteps along with Daze and other useless crap.

[Sinkhole]

Hmm I really like your list Vandalize, looking straight forward "Instigator aggro", a bit too much for my taste I would go down to 3 Instigators and adding one more removel. Some thoughts on, how the meta could develope: I think that counterbalance will see much more play in the future and Goblins have good matchup against most balance related decks. If counterbalance will be more played combo could going back a bit, annother good development for Gobos. Hope I`m right so Gobos will be still a DTB.

If my conjectures becomming true, what build do you think would be the best. R/B or R/G - Instigator build, or with ports instead? I`m just back to Legacy, so feel free to correct me, if my thoughts on the meta development and the stand of goblins in it, are wrong.

[Skeggi]

Why do you think counterbalance will see more play? Mental Misstep is not a reason, just fyi.

[bruizar]

Lol, Goblin Stompy is a joke. If you really think that MM will rain on your parade, just run Food Chain Goblins or another deck.

I gave up the black splash for a while, since my Warren Weirdings did nothing but feeding Tarmogoyfs lately... And went back to the Green splash (Eng. Plague is still being played, god damn it). But I just couldn't give up on my Warren Instigators that easily, so I tried to mix it a little bit.

This is the list I've reached:

Lands [22]

6 Mountain
7 R-Fetches
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
2 Chrome Mox

Core [26]

...

Others [12]

4 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Stingscourger
1 Gempalm Incinerator

Sideboard [15]

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Back to Nature
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Stingscourger

My sideboard is a little messed up. I tried to run 4 Pyrokinesis, but against green fatties, the second stingscourger seems pretty much better. The gravehate is splitted, I like it that way. Leyline of the Void is beautiful, but can't really place in a Green Splash (we can't even pitch it for Chrome Mox with good results) and Pithing Needle on Crypt/Relic is pretty awful against Dredge (which will get pretty popular when people start having a brain that actually thinks).

Singleton Gempalm, as usual. Why?
1) I don't play Mogg War Marshal, it's just there for an emergency fetch.
2) Lightning Bolt does the job better (I use it in the early game [when gempalms can't hit for more then 2], and it's a nice PICKLES SURPRISE lategame finisher).

And I swear I'll punch whoever talks about Lightning Bolt antisynergy with Ringleader, since you guys were trying 4 Mental Missteps along with Daze and other useless crap.


+4 Matron
+1 Kiki, Jiki

Matron is one of the best goblins you can play, especially with Instigator.

Connecting with Instigator once means you have a lot of nice lines of play.

You can get Matron, Matron gets Kiki, Jiki, Kiki, Jiki copies Matron, and Matron gets Ringleader.
You can get Matron, Matron Gets Ringleader, Ringleader gets 4 cards
You can get Matron, Get Kiki, Jiki, Kiki, Jiki copies Matron, And Matron gets Warren Weirding to get rid of Emrakul or Progenitus

Kiki, Jiki serves as a Matron OR instigator OR Ringleader each turn.

[daPaule]

+4 Matron
+1 Kiki, Jiki

Matron is one of the best goblins you can play, especially with Instigator.

Connecting with Instigator once means you have a lot of nice lines of play.

You can get Matron, Matron gets Kiki, Jiki, Kiki, Jiki copies Matron, and Matron gets Ringleader.
You can get Matron, Matron Gets Ringleader, Ringleader gets 4 cards
You can get Matron, Get Kiki, Jiki, Kiki, Jiki copies Matron, And Matron gets Warren Weirding to get rid of Emrakul or Progenitus

Kiki, Jiki serves as a Matron OR instigator OR Ringleader each turn.

Matron is under the core 26 cards, as defined in the first post :)
Kiki is Kiki.. some like him, some hate him. He definitly is only really good with other goblins in play.

[Guy I Don't Know]

I think Kik Jiki is a win more card for the most part. If you attack and connect with a instigator and have matron, you can put into play whatever goblin you want (most likely ringleader, siege gang commander). What matchup does kiki jiki improve? Thats my two cents.

[FoxBlade]

I think Kik Jiki is a win more card for the most part. If you attack and connect with a instigator and have matron, you can put into play whatever goblin you want (most likely ringleader, siege gang commander). What matchup does kiki jiki improve? Thats my two cents.

I disagree.

I like Kiki-Jiki and I don't feel he's a win more card. Rather in my experience in playing with him, he has helped me win games that I would have lost if I didn't have him.

For example in certain situations, I've been able to abuse his token abilities to put in more piledrivers/Lackeys/Instigators than my opponent could block to get the win. Plus with lightning crafter, he's just a beast.

Sometimes I needed to copy another matron to get just the right goblin, Sometimes I needed another SGC, sometimes I needed my goblins to have another +2/+2 to do just enough damage.

I wouldn't really say he improves key match ups, but rather he can answer certain game situations that other goblins can't.

Also with lightning crafter he's just a beast.

[Skeggi]

I wouldn't really say he improves key match ups
That's all I needed to hear.

[Ace/Homebrew]

That's all I needed to hear.

Agreed. Kiki is win more. He's a blast to play with but I'd rather be holding a SGC every time. How many games are you going to win turn 3 because your Lackey let you drop Kiki turn 2?


(it's zero)

[FoxBlade]

Agreed. Kiki is win more. He's a blast to play with but I'd rather be holding a SGC every time. How many games are you going to win turn 3 because your Lackey let you drop Kiki turn 2?

(it's zero)

Turn 3 kills don't happen that often and with Mental Misstep running its going to happen even less.
I feel that turn 1 lackey/vial lost a huge punch, which in turn is going to make warren instigator a bit more powerful.

However you can still get turn 3 kills with kiki off of lackey:

Turn 1:
Mountain->Lackey

Turn 2:

Mountain->PileDriver , attack with lackey - drop kiki (-19)

EOT opponent's turn-> Piledriver token (kiki has haste and token stays until your EOT phase)

Turn 3:

Mountain-> create second pile driver token swing with 3 piledrivers + lackey for 22 pts of damage (even more if you drop chieftain or warchief).

Secondly, in the lists that I've run - Kiki does NOT replace SGC (I run 3 SGC along with kiki). Again Kiki isn't win more he just answers certain situations that other goblins cannot, for example in games I have:

1. The game locked in equilibrium (I do not have enough to do lethal because opponent has enough blockers and would come out on top if I attack his bigger creatures) played Kiki and copied another pile driver creating more piledrivers than my opponent could block to swing for the win.

2. The game locked in equilibrium (I do not have enough to do lethal because opponent has enough blockers and would come out on top if I attack his bigger creatures) played kiki copied SGC to create 4 bodies and chump blocked for several turns until I could swing for the win.

3. The game locked in equilibrium (I do not have enough to do lethal because opponent has enough blockers and would come out on top if I attack his bigger creatures) had kiki and the end of my opponent's turn copied SGC and during my main phase copied SGC again to swing for the win.

4. The game locked in equilibrium (I do not have enough to do lethal because opponent has enough blockers and would come out on top if I attack his bigger creatures) played kiki to create another copy of WI during opponent's EOT and another one during my main phase before swinging with more WI's than they could block.

5. Had moat played on me - used kiki to copy matron to grab lightning crafter (in one game even created an infinite loop with kiki-crafter-skirk prospector)

6. vs. Board Sweepers - used kiki to copy matron in response to get ringleader (or just copied ringleader, or anything that I needed really) to recover faster.

7. The game locked in equilibrium (I do not have enough to do lethal because opponent has enough blockers and would come out on top if I attack his bigger creatures) played kiki copied Boartusk liege/chieftain end of my opponent's turn and beginning of my main phase giving my goblins another +2/+2 making my creatures bigger than theirs enabling me to establish board control.

8. The game locked in equilibrium (I do not have enough to do lethal because opponent has enough blockers and would come out on top if I attack his bigger creatures) opponent plays firespout, used kiki to copy Boartusk liege/chieftain to put all my creatures just out of range of firespout.

Those are the things that I've done with him and in each of those situations SGC alone could not have saved me and in some cases he would only delay the inevitable for 1 turn which wouldn't always be enough time.

[lordofthepit]

Why do most people think Goblins will get weaker after New Phyrexia, citing Mental Misstep as the main reason?

On one hand, Goblins has 2 of the scariest one-drops in the format in Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey; but on the other hand, it does not depend on them to win games the way combo decks do. Goblins has a pretty varied mana curve and is very much capable of playing an attrition battle. With only 8 one-drops (which largely derive their value from the early game), sometimes an opponent will have a Mental Misstep or two in hand and have nothing useful to use them all. In other matchups, it might rip a Mental Misstep too late.

Certainly, in a vaccuum, other decks make better use of Mental Misstep, but in practice, I imagine the presence of Mental Misstep will make the format less favorable for combo and perhaps increase the presence of Stompy type strategies, which should benefit Goblins overall.

[FoxBlade]

Well I have been testing vs. mental misstep online (only vs. decks that run blue btw). Losing a turn 1 lackey/vial really hurts the tempo and it has really made turn 1 lackey and vial really weak.

Losing your turn 1 vial before mental misstep meant that they had to answer with FOW or Daze in some cases, which means it was a 2 for 1 trade. Now it's 1 for 1 trade.

Losing vial on turn 1 means you lose a lot of tempo and vs. decks that run counters, means you lost your ability to cheat cards in and get around their counters. Not to mention that after turn 1 (possibly turn 2 at the very latest) vial losses its effectiveness.

The same is true for lackey, after turn 1 he becomes much more easy for our opponents to deal with, which means he's not very effective if he doesn't hit play the first turn.

[Amon Amarth]

Why do most people think Goblins will get weaker after New Phyrexia, citing Mental Misstep as the main reason?

On one hand, Goblins has 2 of the scariest one-drops in the format in Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey; but on the other hand, it does not depend on them to win games the way combo decks do. Goblins has a pretty varied mana curve and is very much capable of playing an attrition battle. With only 8 one-drops (which largely derive their value from the early game), sometimes an opponent will have a Mental Misstep or two in hand and have nothing useful to use them all. In other matchups, it might rip a Mental Misstep too late.

Certainly, in a vaccuum, other decks make better use of Mental Misstep, but in practice, I imagine the presence of Mental Misstep will make the format less favorable for combo and perhaps increase the presence of Stompy type strategies, which should benefit Goblins overall.

I think people are somewhat overstating the importance of Vial/Lackey in some ways. Goblins is a Ringleader deck and it has been these last few years. That's why we play up to 24 lands. We know that our 1 drops will get dealt with in many games. The blue decks playing Mental Misstep are still going to have problems with Goblin Ringleader.

[Humphrey]

I have to agree, that losing a lackey isnt that big of an issue, because he gets answered real quick anyway usually. Its not that the opp has now 7cards+Mental Misstep in hand. If they now have MM, they might not have a 1drop or STP.
But Vial is usually more hard to remove and it might hurt a lot. On the other hand, I won lots of games without having any 1-drop.
Anyway as mentioned before, im going to play MM for myself to counter opposing ones or removal on our guys.

What in my opinion the worst thing with MM is, it counters Pyroblast, so it weakens that SB option, specially against Merfolk.

Anyhow I wonder how our Merfolk matchup has changed, because I expect a big comeback of it.

[Tacosnape]

Okay, look. It's really this simple.

Mental Misstep is a nightmare for Goblins because it -does- depend on its Lackeys and Vials. Can it win a game without resolving either one? Absolutely it can. But being unable to resolve them makes you a slow deck with very little disruption and very inefficient permanent removal. On top of this, if you fail to resolve either, your manabase disruption is FAR more inefficient. Lackey and Vial both allow you to cheat Goblins into play, which frees you up to Port and Wasteland until your heart's content.

Goblins has always been a deck that has two means to deal with an opposing deck's strategy, whether it's the entire deck's synergy or a single Goblin-stopping card:

1. Disrupt their manabase and don't let it happen.
2. Play around it.

Both of these strategies are very heavily reliant on sticking a Lackey or an Aether Vial on the board.

If you want to run Goblins anymore, you -have- to run Mental Misstep in it. Even if it's just to counter Mental Misstep. My list is U/R and boards Daze, just to give me more chances on the play to sneak through defenses. Does it absolutely suck that Goblins has to maindeck four more cards that don't fit in with the manabase now? Unquestionably. But at the same time at least there's a free counter in the deck now.

[GoboLord]

@ Taco:
I respect you for your valuable comments in this board but I want to correct you this time:
The way you are sketching the "Mental-Misstep-problem" ist too much black-and-white in my eyes. You are right that the impact of MM on Goblins should not be underestimated but you also have to consider two things:

a) not every deck will run MMs
b) The fact that a deck runs MM does not mean that we will never again resolve Lackey and/or Vial. Our chance to open with either Lackey or Vial is twice as high as our opponent's chance to have MM on his opening hand. Plus, MM loses most of it's effectiveness after round 3, because that's about the time we don't desperately need Lacky and Vial anymore. Thus (depending on whether or not our opponent has a Brainstorm or Ponder), MM must be among the top 10 to 13 cards of their library to be effective.

I want to say again that I do not think that MM's impact on Goblins should be taken lightly.

[Vandalize]

Lol man, I've just been playing against NLT and Team America, and everything I'd like to say is: Daze is so much better than MM (I'm using that build with CM + WI, as usual).

MM can get Vial and Lackey. Sure, but it can't get a T1 Instigator, or T1 Piledriver followed by T2 Chieftain/Warchief (which are situations where Daze would simply be annoying as hell).

Warren Instigator IS a beast against this new-staple-piece-of-shit-controlish-decks based on MM. Really, no matter what comes in matter of Countermagic, I'll always fear Swords to Plowshares more than counterspells.

We do have 32+ goblins in the deck, and one of the best card advantage engine in Legacy, so the point is: just drag it to late game, if possible. We can EASILY play 1+ threats every turn (unless you run 24+ lands, lol).

Just modify your point of view in a Goblins list. We have have a goddamned tribal synergy and one of the best damage dealers in Legacy (Hi, my name is Piledriver). If we don't give a shit about MM, or any other countermagic that comes out, and just play our main strategy straight foward (killing your opponent), goblins might rise again.

I'm not kidding, I've beaten multiple 2x MM openers just by laying down a WI, where a Swords to Plowshares or any other damned removal would perfectly stop me. Test the damn card for a long while, and he won't disappoint you.

[P-AiR]

Vandal, great to hear about your recent successes against MM. Are you still using the same list as post #634? How have you been finding the decklist? Has 4 removal been too few? I hope you're right that Goblins will rise again as we've been somewhat under the radar lately, rarely appearing in the top 8s of SCG Opens.

I am entertaining the idea of using that decklist but would love to try and find a way to integrate green for krosan grips. That would mean less hovels/badlands and possibly mountains for fetches and taigas. Has that ever crossed your mind? Primarily, I always try and cover all bases and become prepared against troublesome artifact/enchantments i.e. moat, humility, pernicious deed, equipment, sneak attack, etc.