[Deck] Goblins

[LeoCop 90]

The Eidolon is playable in burn... there he will replace pyrostatic pillar that have never been played in goblins since, as gobolord stated, we have better options to fight storm. i don't think i would consider him even if he were a goblin, since usually goblins gameplan is not to kill the opponent as soon as possible dealing tons of damages, like burn does.

[Avatara]

Second: I agree with you, the card is unplayable. It's a slightly better version of Pyrostatic Pillar, which is still inferior to a lot of other cmc2 storm-hate-permanents that we alreadyhave access to, like: Thorn of Amethyst, Thalia, Ethersworn Cannonist, Chalice of the Void and Rain of Gore.
That's not strictly true.. Does Enchantress care about Thorn/Thalia? Sure it makes them slower but it doesn't keep them from locking you. At least Eidolon will help you race them before the lock happens. Also vs decks like Aluran, breakfast, painter, affinity and the likes Eidolon is better than Thalia. Painter doesn't care about your life points; we need to race them. Aluran doesn't care about the +1 mana cost at all when going off for example. However Aluran allows us to play Eidolon for free. Also don't forget that Eidolon isn't a legend and it can't be duress-ed like many other hate cards. If you run it main deck it will get help from Challice in various match-ups.

But hey.. what do I know? Maybe I'm totally wrong. Without actual play testing results we can only speculate.

[dissy]

Card looks pretty cool and versitile iam not sure if its better than thalia but only time will tell!
Iam deffinitley gonna playtest it when it comes out.

Tomorrow iam going to a 30 people legacy tournament iam gonna play Rgw list with pyrikonesis.
Iam curious how well this card works. Tournament revieuw will follow sunday:)

[GoboLord]

That's not strictly true.. Does Enchantress care about Thorn/Thalia? Sure it makes them slower but it doesn't keep them from locking you. At least Eidolon will help you race them before the lock happens. Also vs decks like Aluran, breakfast, painter, affinity and the likes Eidolon is better than Thalia. Painter doesn't care about your life points; we need to race them. Aluran doesn't care about the +1 mana cost at all when going off for example. However Aluran allows us to play Eidolon for free. Also don't forget that Eidolon isn't a legend and it can't be duress-ed like many other hate cards. If you run it main deck it will get help from Challice in various match-ups.

But hey.. what do I know? Maybe I'm totally wrong. Without actual play testing results we can only speculate.

I get your point, but in the posting that you quoted I stated specifically that we have access to better cmc2-permanents that fight storm-combo decks. I am open to learn from testing results that this card is suprisingly good. But for now it seems like a typical storm-hate card, with hardly any additional value in any other MU.

[jrw1985]

YOur argument is invalid, because it is unrealistic that a Tendrils-storm deck is on 20 life when it goes off.

Second: I agree with you, the card is unplayable. It's a slightly better version of Pyrostatic Pillar, which is still inferior to a lot of other cmc2 storm-hate-permanents that we alreadyhave access to, like: Thorn of Amethyst, Thalia, Ethersworn Cannonist, Chalice of the Void and Rain of Gore.

Thank you for agreeing with my invalid argument.

I'm just pointing out that this card doesn't really do anything to stop or disrupt Storm. There are many hate cards that Storm needs to answer or play around in order to win. But this elemental is not one of them. Storm can literally stick to its gameplan to-the-letter, resolve 9 cheap spells then a Tendrils, and beat us with the Elemental in play. It is, therefor, NOT a viable piece of disruption against Storm. Period.

I could go on about how it's too slow against Belcher, useless against SnT, and too difficult to cast at RR, but these are all afterthoughts to the FACT that storm can and will still beat you with this guy in play.

[max_goblin]

Thank you for agreeing with my invalid argument.

I'm just pointing out that this card doesn't really do anything to stop or disrupt Storm. There are many hate cards that Storm needs to answer or play around in order to win. But this elemental is not one of them. Storm can literally stick to its gameplan to-the-letter, resolve 9 cheap spells then a Tendrils, and beat us with the Elemental in play. It is, therefor, NOT a viable piece of disruption against Storm. Period.

I could go on about how it's too slow against Belcher, useless against SnT, and too difficult to cast at RR, but these are all afterthoughts to the FACT that storm can and will still beat you with this guy in play.

Ok, but I like it more than Thalia for goblins.

1. You dont need to splash.
2. People can play around Thalia as well, but this guy at least give then a shock.
3. Goblins seens to fit more in the race type of deck, than the delay type (Thalia).

Oh and BTW, the arguments against it being slow are the same for Thalia or Thorn of Amethyst. All of them cost 2, but anyway, if he was a goblin, everything would be more interesting, actually, I dont see it having play in goblins as well.

[jimmythegreek]

Has anyone ever tried chancellor of the annex in goblins before?

[jrw1985]

Has anyone ever tried chancellor of the annex in goblins before?

You know, if it were a goblin it would be an auto 4-of. But since it isn't there are just so many cards that are better. You could play Daze and have a card that's actually a live draw. Or Mindbreak Trap if you're just looking for a turn 0 answer to storm. I've never tested Chancellor and I don't see any convincing reason to test it.

[jimmythegreek]

You know, if it were a goblin it would be an auto 4-of. But since it isn't there are just so many cards that are better. You could play Daze and have a card that's actually a live draw. Or Mindbreak Trap if you're just looking for a turn 0 answer to storm. I've never tested Chancellor and I don't see any convincing reason to test it.

I think chancellor could do an amazing job protecting our turn one lackey or vial. Imagine turn one lackey showing chancellor prior to the play. Besides zero mana cost permanents and sol lands there first turn play will either be countered or its gonna take an extra turn to stick. Lackey is gonna get through with an annex reveal......period. With daze its gonna put us behind in mana which goblins cant afford, not to mention weakening our mana base. Imagine a world without deathrites and delvers getting in the way of little green Gary Coleman.

[jrw1985]

I think chancellor could do an amazing job protecting our turn one lackey or vial. Imagine turn one lackey showing chancellor prior to the play. Besides zero mana cost permanents and sol lands there first turn play will either be countered or its gonna take an extra turn to stick. Lackey is gonna get through with an annex reveal......period. With daze its gonna put us behind in mana which goblins cant afford, not to mention weakening our mana base. Imagine a world without deathrites and delvers getting in the way of little green Gary Coleman.

Ah, now I understand where you're coming from. The hope is that Chance protects your lackey/vial or gives you a tempo advantage by making your opponent wait until t2 to play anything. Chance's effect would be very powerful in goblins and really does fit the tempo gameplan. Unfortunately, Chance is a dead-draw outside the opening 7. So though I've never played it I can relate it to another T0 answer, Leyline of the Void. I used to run Leyline a lot. When it was good, it was Great. When it was not great it was really really bad. Considering that Chance's effect is nowhere near as back-breaking as Leyline's I can't say there's any good reason to play it.

[Raznaak]

Ok, going to a smaller tournament than my first one tomorrow, and I'm trying an unusual route: RWB goblins.
I've really liked the RW goblins, but it lacked something against TNN and against some comboes... so, I tried to add black to it in an online deck tested (mtgdeckbuilder.com), and it worked wonders, so I invested.

My list:
Creatures
2 Chieftain
3 Warchief
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Piledriver
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Stingscourger
1 Earwig Squad
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Others:
2 Tarfire
4 Aether Vial

Lands:
6 Mountains
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Arid Mesa
2 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Plateau
2 Badlands
1 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Wear//Tear
2 Rest in Peace
2 Warren Weirding
2 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Earwig Squad
1 Lightning Crafter

Maybeboard:
1 Boartusk Liege (maybe against E. Plague + Abrupt Decay?)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (since my meta last time was quite heavy on artifacts)
1 Reput Goblin Chieftain (I removed it for Wort, trying her efficacity)
1 Reput Siege-Gang Commander instead of Lightning Crafter
2 Ethersworn Canonist (against some control decks, and since she's human, she can be Caverned on Humans along Talia)

So, any input? What to remove from the deck, what to swap between the mainboard and the sideboard? My impression from the last tournament is quite heavy on red (sneak show, painter), but there was your usual Deathblade, Stoneblade or Delver, (here's the Top 8, I'm Jean, with my then-RW list: http://blog.imaginaire.com/2014/03/24/tournoi-mtg-legacy-1k-du-22-mars-decklists-du-top-8/)
I'm gonna take notes and give the results tomorrow.

[FTW]

Ah, now I understand where you're coming from. The hope is that Chance protects your lackey/vial or gives you a tempo advantage by making your opponent wait until t2 to play anything. Chance's effect would be very powerful in goblins and really does fit the tempo gameplan. Unfortunately, Chance is a dead-draw outside the opening 7. So though I've never played it I can relate it to another T0 answer, Leyline of the Void. I used to run Leyline a lot. When it was good, it was Great. When it was not great it was really really bad. Considering that Chance's effect is nowhere near as back-breaking as Leyline's I can't say there's any good reason to play it.

Goblins ran 4 Mental Misstep when it was around. Yes, it was to protect Lackey from other Mental Missteps. But it's the same principle. If back then it was worth protecting our turn 1 play (or slowing them a turn) at the risk of wasting a deck slot, it might still be now in some matchups. Chancellor synergizes with Thalia/Wasteland/Port and the 1-drop plan pretty well. Although it's mostly dead, it's theoretically Vialable and you can drop it off SnT.

If you board it in on the play, you can do silly things like:
T1 Vial with Chancellor back up. opponent plays nothing
T2 Waste/Port them. opponent still plays nothing
T3 Vial in Thalia. yikes.

That's a hell of a lot of tempo.
Alternately you could just use it to protect T1 Lackey and/or just drop a Thalia turn 2 off Caverns.
The Chrome Mox builds could theoretically play T1 Mox, Thalia with Chancellor back-up... seems tough for the opponent.

[Chatto]

Goblins ran 4 Mental Misstep when it was around. Yes, it was to protect Lackey from other Mental Missteps. But it's the same principle. If back then it was worth protecting our turn 1 play (or slowing them a turn) at the risk of wasting a deck slot, it might still be now in some matchups. Chancellor synergizes with Thalia/Wasteland/Port and the 1-drop plan pretty well. Although it's mostly dead, it's theoretically Vialable and you can drop it off SnT.

If you board it in on the play, you can do silly things like:
T1 Vial with Chancellor back up. opponent plays nothing
T2 Waste/Port them. opponent still plays nothing
T3 Vial in Thalia. yikes.

That's a hell of a lot of tempo.
Alternately you could just use it to protect T1 Lackey and/or just drop a Thalia turn 2 off Caverns.
The Chrome Mox builds could theoretically play T1 Mox, Thalia with Chancellor back-up... seems tough for the opponent.

Tempo indeed, but also a dead card... If you want to counter stuff, why not try a Blue splash?

[jrw1985]

Goblins ran 4 Mental Misstep when it was around. Yes, it was to protect Lackey from other Mental Missteps. But it's the same principle. If back then it was worth protecting our turn 1 play (or slowing them a turn) at the risk of wasting a deck slot, it might still be now in some matchups. Chancellor synergizes with Thalia/Wasteland/Port and the 1-drop plan pretty well. Although it's mostly dead, it's theoretically Vialable and you can drop it off SnT.

If you board it in on the play, you can do silly things like:
T1 Vial with Chancellor back up. opponent plays nothing
T2 Waste/Port them. opponent still plays nothing
T3 Vial in Thalia. yikes.

That's a hell of a lot of tempo.
Alternately you could just use it to protect T1 Lackey and/or just drop a Thalia turn 2 off Caverns.
The Chrome Mox builds could theoretically play T1 Mox, Thalia with Chancellor back-up... seems tough for the opponent.

Oh man, Mental Misstep was the shit. I used to jam 4 in my Goblins list too. But, unlike Chancellor, MM was never a dead draw, so they're not analogous.

Also, your example of silly things looks like a Death and Taxes game.

You play Lackey/Vial so you can cheat cards from your hand into play.
You keep Chancellor in hand to protect Lackey/Vial.
Having Chancellor in hand prevents you from having a goblin in hand to cheat into play.
So, by running Chancellor you can protect Vial/Lackey, but you dilute their ability to cheat cards in, thereby making them less effective and less worthy of protection.

[jrw1985]

Ok, going to a smaller tournament than my first one tomorrow, and I'm trying an unusual route: RWB goblins.
I've really liked the RW goblins, but it lacked something against TNN and against some comboes... so, I tried to add black to it in an online deck tested (mtgdeckbuilder.com), and it worked wonders, so I invested.

My list:
Creatures
2 Chieftain
3 Warchief
4 Lackey
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Piledriver
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Stingscourger
1 Earwig Squad
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Others:
2 Tarfire
4 Aether Vial

Lands:
6 Mountains
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Arid Mesa
2 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Plateau
2 Badlands
1 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Wear//Tear
2 Rest in Peace
2 Warren Weirding
2 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Earwig Squad
1 Lightning Crafter

Maybeboard:
1 Boartusk Liege (maybe against E. Plague + Abrupt Decay?)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper (since my meta last time was quite heavy on artifacts)
1 Reput Goblin Chieftain (I removed it for Wort, trying her efficacity)
1 Reput Siege-Gang Commander instead of Lightning Crafter
2 Ethersworn Canonist (against some control decks, and since she's human, she can be Caverned on Humans along Talia)

So, any input? What to remove from the deck, what to swap between the mainboard and the sideboard? My impression from the last tournament is quite heavy on red (sneak show, painter), but there was your usual Deathblade, Stoneblade or Delver, (here's the Top 8, I'm Jean, with my then-RW list: http://blog.imaginaire.com/2014/03/24/tournoi-mtg-legacy-1k-du-22-mars-decklists-du-top-8/)
I'm gonna take notes and give the results tomorrow.

So how'd it go?

[Raznaak]

So how'd it go?

Extremely poorly... But I don't think it was the changes in the deck, just my bad luck that wanted a payback for all the good luck I had in the last tournament...
It was a small 15-men tournament, four games. There was like 7 combo decks, two Countertops, 2 Reanimators, 1 Burn (who won), an Affinity deck, an enchant deck (with Slippery Bogle and the like), and then there was me. So, three aggro decks, two if you exclude Affinity.

1: I went against my friend who was in his first tournament (he got fourth place), he played a wacky combo deck we constructed yesterday... First game, he comboed off one turn before I kill him, and I was mana flooded in the second game (6 lands draw turn after turn...) and he casted Black Sun Zenith for X=3 just as I got Krenko and too many goblins... Killed me with a 1/1 flying -_-
0-2

2: Then, I went against Countertop Miracles, who invariably kept his 7-cards hand and he invariably had Top and Counterbalance, and at least one Force and he always had a Jace...
Whenever I had the minimum of board advantage, he Terminuses my cards... And when I managed to have a board and he didn't got any Terminus, he Enlightened Tutored for Humility... And, of course, countered my Tear... I NEVER got any Cavern nor any Aether Vial (Seriously, come on!?). And whenever I managed to kill a Jace, he had another one in the hand...
I was mana flooded -again- in the two games I lost (but this was "kinda" normal, since he activated the +2 of Jace each turn...), killed me with Jace one game, and Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience the other game, where I killed three of his Jaces and he had Humility.
1-2 (he was mana screwed second round)

3: I went against a high Tide deck, which I don't know what was the combo, since I Caverned into Thalia second turn each round and killed him promptly.
2-0

4: Affinity, I was tired from the end of session and the inherent lack of sleep, so I made two HUGE misplays...
First game, he started with the classical Affinity start. I have Incinerator in hand, so I play Lackey, which he burns. He plays other cards, and Signal Pest. I play Piledriver, which he burn. He plays Cranial Plating and attack me for 6. I play Goblin Chieftain, and attack for 2 (since the Pest is "flying"). He plays Master of Etherium, and attack me for 9. Then, huge mistake from me... I draw Tarfire and pass the turn. He attacks me with the pest, and I forgot he had Master of Etherium, so I decide to tap my two untapped lands to cycle Incinerator to kill the Pest, but it doesn't kill it because of the toughness boost from the Master. So I die. Tarfire would have killed the Pest, but not 1 damage from the Incinerator.
Second misplay: I was so mad at my misplay that when he went "We start the next game, go go, go.", I agreed and it was only when I had my starting hand that I realized I forgot to side-in my artifact and creature hate (10 cards in from the sideboard...). I asked if it was okay with him if we restart to side in (we didn't even played a land yet), he said no, and the judge approved the decision (I know it was my fault, but come on... he asked to start the next game not even 15 seconds after the first one ended, and he was pressuring me to start. I was not even finished reshuffling my cards!). And he won.
0-2

So, a lamentable 1-3 for me. I went against a combo deck, a Countertop (against which I got my only loss during the last tournament I won), a high-tide combo and a dick. I never even had the time to try the additions to the deck, since I always was mana flooded, totally dominated or I lost before I had the time to do anything.
And, to twist the knife in the wound, during the downtimes, I tested the deck against other decks for fun, and always won... every game. Easily. Against all those other decks, I easily dealt with their comboes, had Rest in Peace against Reanimators) or was too fast for the enchantment aggro (and killed his only creature with Warren Weirdings). WHY wasn't I against them instead of the crap matchup I got?
Oh well, Luck wasn't really in my favour this time, I guess...

[LeoCop 90]

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/the-banned-series-windfall-and-goblin-recruiter/

caleb durward playing some matches with goblin recruiter in his deck. Fun to watch even if you think unbanning recruiter would be foolish

[Olaf Forkbeard]

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/the-banned-series-windfall-and-goblin-recruiter/

caleb durward playing some matches with goblin recruiter in his deck. Fun to watch even if you think unbanning recruiter would be foolish

Neat. Strange how I love that deck but can't see myself playing it due to lazyness. Sooo much shuffling, stacking, drawing, shufffling. Red High Tide is not for me.

[FTW]

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/the-banned-series-windfall-and-goblin-recruiter/

caleb durward playing some matches with goblin recruiter in his deck. Fun to watch even if you think unbanning recruiter would be foolish

Just watched game 1 so far but it's so painful watching him maul it...

T1 Ancient Tomb go vs tapped blue dual? Spell Pierce isn't an option. FoW can't be avoided. Either hope he doesn't play Daze and play it T1 or play an uncracked fetch. In future turns he has to worry about Spell Pierce, Abrupt Decay, discard, or opponent Brainstorming into answers.

Stacking Matrons randomly on the bottom (below top18)? They're free storm and mana. You want to stack at least one in the top 16 so you can Matron->Matron->Matron->Matron, but ideally one in the top 4 in case he Forces a Ringleader and screws up the chain and you need an emergency tutor/reshuffle to deal with the board. Recruiter in the top 4 also seems good. The combo-y finishes can go near the middle/bottom of the top 16 once it's clear you're just comboing off through no disruption. My top 4 would be "Ringleader, Ringleader, Matron, Warchief", perhaps depending on the opponent and board state. Lets you try again the turn after if the first Ringleader gets countered. If both get countered, you can Matron into something useful and reshuffle your deck. If not, Warchief in the top 4 lets you immediately start reducing costs.

Deck would probably be better with Mogg Ritual.

[jrw1985]

Very cool games! I can definitely see why Recruiter was banned, and though this list obviously needs tweaking it's cool to see how 1 card can really give goblins a whole new dimension.

[Chatto]

Just watched game 1 so far but it's so painful watching him maul (...)
Deck would probably be better with Mogg Ritual.

Of course it was painful to watch, because -as he stated- he never ever played the deck before :-) And I would never go for Mogg Ritual in this deck, but hey: Recruiter will never be unbanned in the near future so this isn't even a real thing to be discussing... One might hope the day will come though :-)

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Hello,


I went to a local weekly legacy event and thought I'd give Josiah's (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65256) deck a shot but after some playtesting dropped the Lightning Crafter for a Fetch. I always wanted another mana, and have personally felt 22 mana sources is simply not enough. Lightning Crafter was also the least impactful. I also ran 1 less Badlands for a fetch. I like the fetch for Wasteland protection.

My list:
MB
3 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

3 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger

SB
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Earwig Squad
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

It was a 4 round event. I got some lucky pairings and some lucky draws.

* Round 1 - Tezzerator * Sean
This is generally a very positive matchup. Usual mainboard cards to put us under duress: Thopter Foundry, Damnation, Wurmcoil Engine
Game 1:
I won the die roll and mulled once into Arid Mesa, Cavern of Souls, Chrome Mox, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Matron. Talk about ideal for this match. I slam the turn 1 Warren Instigator off of the Chrome Mox exiling Goblin Piledriver and a Cavern of Souls. He lays an Island for his turn. I untap, and draw for turn revealing a Tarfire, which I am actually happy to see. I will need it if he plays a turn 2 blocker. Warren Instigator does what he does and lives the dream of Goblin Matron into Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. I lay my Arid Mesa and pass. He draws, cracks a fetch for an Underground Sea and plays a Baleful Strix cantripping a card. I of course crack my fetch for a Badlands and Tarfire his Baleful Strix. He forfeits.

Usual sideboard cards to fear: Damnation, Engineered Plague, Ensnaring Bridge, and apparently after this next game Spellskite.
I board in 2 Tuktuk Scrapper and 2 Cabal Therapy taking out 2 Tarfire and 2 Goblin Lackey.

Game 2:
I mulled to 4 trying to find a working hand. Though this particular game was grindy it was in his favor the whole time. I died to his board of: Jace, the mind Sculptor (at 10), Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas (which I forfeited in response to), Spellskite and double Ensnaring Bridge with 0 cards in hand.

Game 3:
I kept a slower 6 of 2 Fetches, Badlands, 2 Warren Instigator, Cabal Therapy. My opponent mulligans to 6.
He goes first with an Island. Drawing a Tuktuk Scrapper, I keep tit for tat with an Arid Mesa, cracking for Badlands. After thinking pretty hard on what to call I cast Cabal Therapy, it resolves. I name Force of Will as I've played this player before and I know he keeps them in against me for some strange reason. My hand would be wrecked by the tempo loss here. His hand is 2 Lands, 2 Baleful Strix and 1 Ensnaring Bridge. He plays out his Baleful Strix and passes. I take the turn, drawing a Goblin Matron, and drop my Warren Instigator, passing. He drops a second cards]Baleful Strix[/cards] and passes. I draw a Land and turn my Warren Instigator sideways, expecting the double block. He merely chumps it. Um, that's good news I guess. I cast a second warren Instigator and pass. He draws and plays an ensnaring Bridge with way too many cards in hand and passes. I of course draw the only remaining Tarfire. I swing with the team, on the Goblin Matron reveal, he forfeits.

1-0 (2/1)

* Round 2 - ANT * Brennon
Friend of mine, actually taught me how to play, but I see him about once a year. While we were shuffling he made mention of how he never Miracles a blind Terminus. Because I know him, I knew he was not on miracles. He is probably on a combo deck, something the opposite of slow control. He knows I'm on Goblins. I have never not been on Goblins.
Game 1:
He won the die roll. I kept my opener of 2 Fetch, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Ringleader, Tuktuk Scrapper.
He starts with Scalding Tarn, Island, Ponder. Sure looks like miracles... Or Show and Tell, or Storm, or Delver. I drop my Lackey searching for a Mountain. He plays a second fetch and cracks it for a Badlands, into Dark Ritual-- and the like. So he wins game one with storm.

Whelp, this a bad matchup. I board in 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Cabal Therapy, 2 Earwig Squad taking out 4 Aether Vial, 4 Goblin Ringleader, 2 Tuktuk Scrapper.

Game 2:
I keep a 5 of 3 lands, Chalice of the Void and Goblin Chieftain. I play the Chalice of the Void at 0 and then durdle till turn 3, he has done nothing but make land drops. I have drawn nothin but lands. I finally hit him for 2. Hell's yea, I'm clearly racing fast enough. He draws, Ponder and passes. I draw a second Goblin Chieftain and bash in for 6. He combo's off next turn starting with Chain of Vapor on my Chalice into 2 Lion's eye Diamond, Informing me had those in his opening hand, he promptly drains 18 life from me.

Should I have mulled again?

1-1 (2/1, 0/2)

* Round 3 - Merfolk * Irwin
Game 1:
He wins the die roll. My opening hand had Scalding Tarn, Wasteland, Chrome Mox, Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Chieftain, Aether Vial.
He starts with a Cursecatcher off an Island. I draw a Cavern of Souls. And slam down that early Warren Instigator off of Cavern of Souls, and Chrome Mox exiling Goblin Lackey, playing around daze of course. He draws, casts a Silvergill Adept and passes. I draw something irrelevant, cast Goblin Chieftain and swing. He casts a Jitte and threatens to equip to a Mutavault to stop my fun next turn. Unfortunately for him I drew a Goblin Matron. But after thinking about it, I could have drawn just about any card that wasn't non-wasteland land, Goblin Lackey, Chrome Mox, or Aether Vial to have enough pressure.

I sideboarded in 2 Tuktuk Scrapper and Stingscourger taking out 3 Tarfire.

Game 2:
I kept a dubious 6 of 2 Wasteland, Mountain, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Ringleader, Tuktuk Scrapper.
He played an Aether Vial on turn 1, a Lord of Atlantis on turn 2, True-Name Nemesis on turn 3, and double True-Name Nemesis on turn 4 with Aether Vials help. I didn't do nearly as cool of things.

Hindsight is 20/20. I got into tunnel vision and told myself "I CANT LOSE WITH PILEDRIVER". Now looking at that hand, it's total shit. Oh well. Heat of the moment.

Game 3:
I kept an opener of triple Goblin Piledriver and the lands required to resolve them. Cavern of Souls is a good card.

2-1 (2/1, 0/2, 2/1)

* Round 4 - Miracles * Jeff
Game 1:
I won the die roll and keep a 7 of Cavern of Souls, Fetch, Chrome Mox, Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, 2 Goblin Chieftain. I lead with the apparently not so uncommon play of an uncounterable turn 1 Warren Instigator exiling Goblin Lackey. He plays a Plains and passes. I draw a Goblin Lackey and swing with Warren Instigator putting in Goblin Lackey and Goblin Chieftain. I did not intend to cast further creatures due to board wipes, and just clock him this way, but he blind miracles a Terminus on turn 2. He lays a land and a Sensei's Divining Top. I draw a Tuktuk Scrapper cast a Goblin Chieftain and swing. He tops end of turn and miracles a turn 3 Terminus as well. The game goes on very long after this, but eventually I win with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Goblin Chieftain shenanigans. After writing about this game. I probably could have held back that Goblin Lackey on turn 2, Warren Instigator and Goblin Chieftain are plenty of a clock.

I board in 2 Earwig Squad, and 2 Chalice of the Void boarding out 3 Tarfire and 1 Tuktuk Scrapper. With Kiki-Jiki, Mirro Breaker mainboard Tuktuk Scrapper can cause some major havock against their Sensei's Divining Top, so I left one in.

Game 2:
I don't remember this game very well. Imagine playing against miracles, but instead of drawing Goblin Matrons and Goblin Ringleaders, you lose.

Game 3:
I also don't remember this one very well, end of the night, I was getting tired. I know these things happened:
I landed Chalice of the Void for 1 on turn 2. Warren Weirding did work all day long between giving me a couple of 1/1's with a Goblin Chieftain to killing an Angel when he miracled for 1 early. I won this game after he'd used all 4 Terminus and 3 Supreme Verdict. He drew rather well for not having access to Sensei's Divining Top, Ponder or Brainstorm. He also never cast a Swords to Plowshares in any of the 3 games.

3-1 (2/1, 0/2, 2/1, 2/1)

What to take away about this deck:
People will mulligan an otherwise good hand because they think you have Wasteland AND Rishadan Port if they know your on Goblins (8 versus 4 ways to interact with mana). Though it didn't surface, I think I will be swapping the 1 of the Goblin Sharpshooter for a Boartusk Liege. I really do fear Engineered Plague, and this decks gameplan is to... Race it. I still don't know how well this deck does against a deck with creatures in it sans-Merfolk. Any opinions on that?


Forgot to add Piledrivers to my deck. Oops.

[ScatmanX]

@olaf: thanks for the report.
Several cards missing from yous list. Mind editing it?
Id keep the 5 card hand against storm. But Id play Chalice on T2. The deal is you are pretty likely to loose that game, and though your opponent may discard chalice, it is way better at 1 than at 0. In that specific situation Id have gambled it and passed the turn with it in hand.
- CotV is way better against miracles than Weirdings or Sting. Bring them all in.
-this list can do well against creature decks. Granted, there arent many of those anymore...
- Boartusk Liege is a house. Cutting a Shooter for it is the right thing

Enviado de meu GT-S6313T usando Tapatalk

[AznSeal]

This is going to sound stupid, but I like my decks looking nice. I'm also not a fan of full art lands. I was wondering what art mountains do yall think is most beautiful?

https://sites.google.com/site/mtgbasics/home/mountain

[Olaf Forkbeard]

@olaf: thanks for the report.
Several cards missing from yous list. Mind editing it?
Id keep the 5 card hand against storm. But Id play Chalice on T2. The deal is you are pretty likely to loose that game, and though your opponent may discard chalice, it is way better at 1 than at 0. In that specific situation Id have gambled it and passed the turn with it in hand.
- CotV is way better against miracles than Weirdings or Sting. Bring them all in.
-this list can do well against creature decks. Granted, there arent many of those anymore...
- Boartusk Liege is a house. Cutting a Shooter for it is the right thing


I thought pretty hard about it, in this one scenario I made the right decision on playing the Chalice of the Void for 0, but I see your point in that there is a longer stall available if he doesn't just have it. I generally agree with the other comments. Though I left in the Warren Weirding because in my personal experiences Knocking down 2 angels to 1 or even 3 to 2 makes it so racing seems like a bad option for them. You are probably right, I just stuck to my gut. I will try otherwise next time round.


My two favorites mountains though: This (http://magiccards.info/m11/en/243.html) and this (http://magiccards.info/ug/en/87.html).

[GoboLord]

A few weeks ago I posted THIS (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=803142&viewfull=1#post803142) list and said I wanted to try out Rakdos Charm as additional artifact hate against SFM.dec (priority °1) and generic graveyard hate and shenaningangs with Lackey-triggers (priority °2).
Since then I had the chance to test a few games against Death & Taxes (which I would file under "SFM.dec") and here are my thoughts on the MU (with the list on the link).

* you usually win when there is no SFM around
* Brimaz, turned out to be problematic, because my list has no effetive cards to deal with him
* we need to try to trade 1:1 as often as possible and then resolve a Ringleader/Matron/Chieftain
* 1 Tuktuk was hardly enough to deal with equipments
* Rakdos Charm was irrelevant 100% of the times I drew it. It is really hard to resolve a non-goblin, non-creature spell with manacost >1, especially when it has a color.
* overall we need to be the aggro deck, not the control deck.

These results got me thinking about more effective SB cards that support the aggressive route aka. removal or creatures. My first weapon of choice would be Tuktuk#2, but this guy is really clunkly and only relevant when your opponent has an equipment (you don't want to shatter a Revoker or Aether VIal in most cases). So I thought about Dismember as a solution for
1. early Mother of RUnes
2. early SFMs
3. Brimaz
4. Batterskull Tokens
5. and whatever non-Brimaz creature is carrying a Sword of Fire and Ice.

I would like to hear some reactions on that - maybe some impressions on how other perceive this MU.

Thank you,

GL

//EDIT:
@ Mountain topic: I use these in my Rb list.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/po/211.jpg

[v1ND]

@ Mountains:

I like my full arts (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/zen/245.jpg) but second place goes to odyssey sunsets (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/od/346.jpg). Mountains gotta be red, but the palette feels forced for too many.

@ Dismember:

Seems like a solid idea. With the move away from gempalm, our larger creature removal is limited. I noticed you cut gempalm completely, I think it's still good enough for the 60 as a matron target.

My thoughts of the match-up are going more and more towards changing sides, DnT just seems like the better deck at our gameplan. It seems unlikely that we'll be getting many more good green men but relevant hatebears seem to come every block. Maybe Sulfur Elemental in the board? Doesn't solve the SFM problem but keeps most of their deck off the table. If only there was a targeted http://magiccards.info/ne/en/85.html (Flowstone Surge) to deal with TNN while we're at it.

[jrw1985]

@Mountains

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMIzuSLx3kE

[Raznaak]

Dismember is nice, against most early-game creatures, and also against most late-game creatures. Also, it toys with the math of your opponents, as since they see 1 mana open, they think you have a Tarfire or a Bolt, but no, you kill their Tarmogoyf, Batterskull, or other beater with Dismember. Still, the Gempalm is Matroneable.
On a side-note, in my casual B/R destroy/damage deck, one of my friend didn't really liked me that time :P He cast Griselbrand, and pass (casual game, as I said). So, I cast Dismember for four life at the end of his turn, he does nothing, and then a Sudden Shock. He was mad :wink:

[Ace/Homebrew]

Foil full-art Zendikar loop mountains. :laugh:

I think it is possible we judged Shattergang Brothers too harshly and too quickly... I will be testing him out over the next few weeks and will report my findings.

He may be as good or better against Sneak & Show than stuff like Confusion in the Ranks or Ashen Rider.

On the plus side:
He's a goblin!
3 toughness means he survives Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and has a built in way to deal with her.
CMC of 4 means he is un-decay-able.
Sac effect does not target and can help deal with True-Name Nemesis.

Right now I am thinking he's a possible 2-of in the board. I am not confident he is main-deckable right now.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Foil full-art Zendikar loop mountains. :laugh:

I think it is possible we judged Shattergang Brothers too harshly and too quickly... I will be testing him out over the next few weeks and will report my findings.

He may be as good or better against Sneak & Show than stuff like Confusion in the Ranks or Ashen Rider.

On the plus side:
He's a goblin!
3 toughness means he survives Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and has a built in way to deal with her.
CMC of 4 means he is un-decay-able.
Sac effect does not target and can help deal with True-Name Nemesis.

Right now I am thinking he's a possible 2-of in the board. I am not confident he is main-deckable right now.

My friend life is too short to play bad cards in magic, anyways im testing out 3-4 imperial recruiters main deck as our 5th-8th matron since he fetches all our guys except for krenko, hes not good on ringleaders but as top deck mid to late games he will give us the boost we need.

[ScatmanX]

My friend life is too short to play bad cards in magic
I have to disagree. Winning with bad cards is way more fun than winning with good ones. I love it =p
That said, he does seem really hard to cast and to use. God luck anyway...

[Olaf Forkbeard]

God luck anyway...

That typo made that sentence better.

[ScatmanX]

That typo made that sentence better.
hahahahahahahaha!
Wont even edit it....

[jrw1985]

My friend life is too short to play bad cards in magic, anyways im testing out 3-4 imperial recruiters main deck as our 5th-8th matron since he fetches all our guys except for krenko, hes not good on ringleaders but as top deck mid to late games he will give us the boost we need.

Why are we playing Goblins then?

[Raznaak]

We really are due for a new set with pertinent goblins...

[angel882]

Hei, it's been a while I have played goblins but I got interested about caleb durward playing that food chain goblin. Of course lack of goblin recruiter is huge setback but could it work without recruiter?

[Raznaak]

Hei, it's been a while I have played goblins but I got interested about caleb durward playing that food chain goblin. Of course lack of goblin recruiter is huge setback but could it work without recruiter?

I don't think so, since the recruiter is quite unique in that way. There could be a wacky way to recreate that, but it wouldn't be half as efficient, and it would not be a "goblin" deck IMO.

[ScatmanX]

Hei, it's been a while I have played goblins but I got interested about caleb durward playing that food chain goblin. Of course lack of goblin recruiter is huge setback but could it work without recruiter?
A little research can do wonders. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12248-Deck-Goblin-Champions&highlight=food+cahin+goblins)
The deck can kill as early as turn 2. The thread explain how to do it.
It is a little outdated. I really liked the Instigator version.
To bad I sold my Food Chains a long time ago... I`d certainly try something with it again.

[AznSeal]

A little research can do wonders. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12248-Deck-Goblin-Champions&highlight=food+cahin+goblins)
The deck can kill as early as turn 2. The thread explain how to do it.
It is a little outdated. I really liked the Instigator version.
To bad I sold my Food Chains a long time ago... I`d certainly try something with it again.

That deck looks so sick omg...

[Raznaak]

A little research can do wonders. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12248-Deck-Goblin-Champions&highlight=food+cahin+goblins)
The deck can kill as early as turn 2. The thread explain how to do it.
It is a little outdated. I really liked the Instigator version.
To bad I sold my Food Chains a long time ago... I`d certainly try something with it again.

Well, color me surprised.

[jimmythegreek]

What about the stock warchief build minus ports....the red mana is often relevant.

[GoboLord]

What about the stock warchief build minus ports....the red mana is often relevant.

What exactly do you mean? If you can explain your question a little more people will be able to give you proper answers.

[Pinoy Goblin]

Why are we playing Goblins then?

You got me here bro, time to quit i guess :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[OlegtheSuper]

What do you think about blue splash in goblins?
4 spell pierce
4 swan song
4 relic of progenitus
2 krosan grip
1 pyrokinesis

I think it is better then white color in sb because thalia costs 2, spell pierce ans swan song cost 1 mana.
Vs S&T in white sb you would sb-in 4 thalia+2 conf+1 sting+1 needle+2 grip and when you face ANT/TES you have only 4 thalia+1 needle+2 grip. Conf-sting do nothing in this match up.
4 thalia
2 confusin in the ranks
1 stingscourger
1 pithing needle
2 krosan grip
1 pyrokinesis
4 relic of progenitus

And in blue sb you can just sb-in against all combo decks 8 counterspells.

Counterspells are better then discard because discard cant solve the problem right now, right here.

So what do you think about it?

[GoboLord]

What do you think about blue splash in goblins?
4 spell pierce
4 swan song
4 relic of progenitus
2 krosan grip
1 pyrokinesis

I think it is better then white color in sb because thalia costs 2, spell pierce ans swan song cost 1 mana.
Vs S&T in white sb you would sb-in 4 thalia+2 conf+1 sting+1 needle+2 grip and when you face ANT/TES you have only 4 thalia+1 needle+2 grip. Conf-sting do nothing in this match up.
4 thalia
2 confusin in the ranks
1 stingscourger
1 pithing needle
2 krosan grip
1 pyrokinesis
4 relic of progenitus

And in blue sb you can just sb-in against all combo decks 8 counterspells.

Counterspells are better then discard because discard cant solve the problem right now, right here.

So what do you think about it?

Some players over here are running the U splash and claim to have had some success. As far as I know they play U for Swansong and Izzet Charm. When you want to beat storm combo decks however you should be looking for a combination of countermagic/discard spells and hate in permanent form (like Chalice). If you have only one kind of hate (i.e. ONLY permanents, or ONLY discard, or ONLY countermagic) they can prepare better for that. (e.g. not boarding Chain of Vapor/Abrupt Decay when they notice you dont have any permanents).

Also you should consider playing Flusterstorm. Swan Song is definitely a strong card, but I would swap Spell Pierce for something else (Chalice/Thorn, or IzzetCharm/Flusterstorm).

[OlegtheSuper]

Some players over here are running the U splash and claim to have had some success. As far as I know they play U for Swansong and Izzet Charm. When you want to beat storm combo decks however you should be looking for a combination of countermagic/discard spells and hate in permanent form (like Chalice). If you have only one kind of hate (i.e. ONLY permanents, or ONLY discard, or ONLY countermagic) they can prepare better for that. (e.g. not boarding Chain of Vapor/Abrupt Decay when they notice you dont have any permanents).

Also you should consider playing Flusterstorm. Swan Song is definitely a strong card, but I would swap Spell Pierce for something else (Chalice/Thorn, or IzzetCharm/Flusterstorm).

Fluster cant counter sneak attack for example. Charm costs 2 mana is too much I think. And we cant combo chalice with 1 mana counterspell. I think you are right that we have to use counterspells and discards together, but 15 cards are not enought for that:(
Thank you for reply

[GoboLord]

Fluster cant counter sneak attack for example.
True, but it is slightly better vs, Storm.


Charm costs 2 mana is too much I think.
True, but it is flexible, as it can also burn a creature randomly. However, I dont like Charm either. I was just sharing what people over here are playing. I would only splash U if I needed Swan SIng for some reason.


And we cant combo chalice with 1 mana counterspell.
Well, you can play around said. YOu can ccast Chalice for 0 AND you can keep your Swan Song for when they try to get rid of Chalice @ 1 somehow.


but 15 cards are not enought for that:(
Well, you are playing 8 counterspells, so you DO have the space for that :-P

[OlegtheSuper]

And chalices are almost do nothing vs S&T. On turn 2 you would rather playthaloa or use landcontrol. So I just trying to find the way to build 100% relevant sb with no dead cards like ashen rider and so on. If there are any blue highlevelgoblins like ringleader, we will play FoW.

[OlegtheSuper]

For example even thalia doesnt solve the problems alone, she just delay them and always needs landcontrol and fast clock. Discard delayed for 1 turn, opponent always can draw a combo piece in his turn, so it also need a clock. Swan song need nothing, it solves the problems right here and right now, so I feel like I have to try blue splash in my deck.

[jrw1985]

The problem with counter spells has always been that they require you to keep mana open and be reactive. Goblins has never been a reactive deck in that regard. Goblins is Proactive; it wants to play Lackey/Vial T1 and Waste/Port T2. You don't want to sandbag goblins in hand to keep mana open for counter spells because you need to put on a clock. You will never have more counters than they have discard/combo spells, so you need to beat by building a board presence and slow them down for a few turns. That's why Thalia is so good in goblins. She speeds up our clock and slows theirs.

[LeoCop 90]

Men, I'm so excited ! My local store's owner bought 2 onslaught boxes online and we are soon going to do an onslaught draft ! Will I manage to draft goblins ? (although i'd maybe prefer to open a couple of fetches :wink: )

[ScatmanX]

Men, I'm so excited ! My local store's owner bought 2 onslaught boxes online and we are soon going to do an onslaught draft ! Will I manage to draft goblins ? (although i'd maybe prefer to open a couple of fetches :wink: )
Haha. That must be fun =] I'd certainly go for Fetches over goblins though...

@ U Splash - I have played only with Daze and Brainstorm, and believe it or not, Brainstorm is a hell of a card, even in goblins, while Daze was very underwhelming...
That said, some people had success with Fluster/Pierce on the SB. Just try it out and get to your own conclusions.

@GobboLord - Clear some space on the inbox please =]

[OlegtheSuper]

I'm trying
4 relics of progenitus
4 cabal therapy
4 swan song
2 krosan grip
1 perish

Thalia unfortunately does almost nothing vs S&T if we have no land control and dmg.
In blue or/and black sb we need sb+dmg, land control will be just good adding but not necessary and it is good.

Vs Tes, Ant Thalia is a huge! But if opponent knows that we play only white splash it is easy for him to sb vs us, just bring massacre, decay and name thalia with cabal therapy. And he knows that we have nothing on turn one and this is sad for us.

We can find a badlands if we have swan song in hand and vice versa to force an opponent to make a mistake with cabal therapy on turn one.

Vs tes, ant I sb
+4 ss
+4 therapy
+4 relic
+0-1 krosan grip

-4 ringleader
-1 stingscourger
-3 gempalm
-4 vial
Is it ok?

[GoboLord]

I'm trying
4 relics of progenitus
4 cabal therapy
4 swan song
2 krosan grip
1 perish

Thalia unfortunately does almost nothing vs S&T if we have no land control and dmg.
In blue or/and black sb we need sb+dmg, land control will be just good adding but not necessary and it is good.

Vs Tes, Ant Thalia is a huge! But if opponent knows that we play only white splash it is easy for him to sb vs us, just bring massacre, decay and name thalia with cabal therapy. And he knows that we have nothing on turn one and this is sad for us.

We can find a badlands if we have swan song in hand and vice versa to force an opponent to make a mistake with cabal therapy on turn one.

Vs tes, ant I sb
+4 ss
+4 therapy
+4 relic
+0-1 krosan grip

-4 ringleader
-1 stingscourger
-3 gempalm
-4 vial
Is it ok?

Our talk about swansong Makes me want to try the card myself. My SB looks like this now. (Winstigator Shell MD)

4 chalice
3-4 Therapy
2-3 perish
3 swan song
2 Dismember

Manabase:
4 Caverns
5 fetch
4 auntie's hovel
1 badlands
1 volcanic
3 chrome mox
3 Mountain
2 wasteland

@marcelo: done.

[OlegtheSuper]

Our talk about swansong Makes me want to try the card myself. My SB looks like this now. (Winstigator Shell MD)

4 chalice
3-4 Therapy
2-3 perish
3 swan song
2 Dismember

Manabase:
4 Caverns
5 fetch
4 auntie's hovel
1 badlands
1 volcanic
3 chrome mox
3 Mountain
2 wasteland

@marcelo: done.

Why 4 hovels and 1 badlands? Have you test it?
My manabase is

4 cavern
7 fetchlands
2 mountain
2 taiga
1 volcan
1 badlands
4 wasteland
2 port

[GoboLord]

Why 4 hovels and 1 badlands? Have you test it?
My manabase is

4 cavern
7 fetchlands
2 mountain
2 taiga
1 volcan
1 badlands
4 wasteland
2 port

I dont own more than 1 badlands and hovel is really only slightly worse.

I dont get Why you want krosan grip. In which MUs Do you need it?

[OlegtheSuper]

I dont own more than 1 badlands and hovel is really only slightly worse.

I dont get Why you want krosan grip. In which MUs Do you need it?

I sb 1 vs uwr(I've 2 tin and 1 tuk in main)
Sb 0-1-2 vs TA for plagues
BG with plagues
Rip+helm combo
Enchantress
1-2 vs merfolks(3 jittes in sb)
MUD
Ant, tes
1 vs reanimator for animate dead, for needles to deal with them faster
2 vs death and taxes
2 vs miracles to deal with top
And so on.

[OlegtheSuper]

Our talk about swansong Makes me want to try the card myself. My SB looks like this now. (Winstigator Shell MD)

4 chalice
3-4 Therapy
2-3 perish
3 swan song
2 Dismember

Manabase:
4 Caverns
5 fetch
4 auntie's hovel
1 badlands
1 volcanic
3 chrome mox
3 Mountain
2 wasteland

@marcelo: done.

I belive if you want to play blue splash you have to change your manabase. You need more fetchlands,0 hoves and 3 badlands in total.
4 caverns
3 moxes
3 mountain
3 badlands
1 volcanic
2 wasteland
7 fetchlands

Or
6 fetchlands
3 wastelands

It will bring your deck to the next level.

Realy sorry, I'm realy respect all you are doing for deck and for all who wants to play this deck(in Russia I'm doing the same things) but hoves is a very bad card. This is true and you know it. I hope you don't offense to me.

[GoboLord]

I belive if you want to play blue splash you have to change your manabase. You need more fetchlands,0 hoves and 3 badlands in total.
4 caverns
3 moxes
3 mountain
3 badlands
1 volcanic
2 wasteland
7 fetchlands

Or
6 fetchlands
3 wastelands

It will bring your deck to the next level.

Realy sorry, I'm realy respect all you are doing for deck and for all who wants to play this deck(in Russia I'm doing the same things) but hoves is a very bad card. This is true and you know it. I hope you don't offense to me.

I think you are right about the number of fetchlands. When I'm playing with 3 colors it is definitely better to play 6 or more fetchlands and fetch-able duallands of course. Jim Davis used to run 6 Fetchlands and only 1 Taiga and 1 Plateau in his classic Rgw build, so I'm pretty confident that 6 fetchlands 1 badlands and 1 Volcanic Island will work out for me (considering that auntie's hovel more than make up for the number of B cards I'm playing).
However I must correct you on Auntie's Hovel. If I had the opportunity I would play 4 Badlands and 4 Auntie's Hovel (and maybe 1 or 2 fetchlands) in my list. I am aiming at making Stoneforge Mystic and Deathrite Shaman as worse as possible, which is why I play a full set of Tarfire and as few Wastelands and fetchlands as possile. In a 2-colored (Rb) list Auntie's Hovel is definitely better than a fetchland. It is basically a non-fetchable Badlands 99% of the time. And being not fetchable is not an issue at all when you want to cut on fetchlands anyway.
I know that Auntie's Hovel is NOT agood option for a 3- or 4- colored list, but I also know that I'm playing the same Rb list for a straight 10 months now and I never wish it was a Mountain or a Fetchland.

[Sandro95]

Hi everyone, went 3-1 yesterday with the following list

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Warchieft
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Tarfire
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Weirding

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Badlands
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Engineered Plague
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

R1 Merfolk brew 1-2
He played an interesting list with Triton Shorestalkers and Curiosities.

R2 Junk 2-0
My opponent had some mana issues after having wastelanded me G1. G2 He played an Enlightened Tutor for Engineered Plague, but didn't find his third mana source in time. He did play a DRS though, but I had the removal for it.

R3 Oops, all spells 2-1
I raced him G1 but never got there. G2 I played a Thoughtseize taking his Balustrade Spy.
G3 He probed me and saw chalice, so he played out 2 lotus petals and a chrome mox and passed. I played a Goblin Lackey and a Chalice for zero. I'm still not sure if playing chalice there was correct or not. I didn't want to play it on one because I hade 2 more onedrops in hand (lackey and skirk prospector), but had I been able to put it on three or four (not too unlikely, as i had 2 lackey + prospector) I could have stopped one or all of his wincons.

R4 Dredge 2-1
G1 My opponent mulled to four and never did much. G2 I had a great hand but my opponent managed to put Elesh into play two, along with some zombies, the turn before I would have been able to stabilize with relic. G3 I thoughtseized a Firestorm and my opponent Cabal Therapied himself for a Troll. At one point I played a Matron for Sharpshooter, and put it into play with lackey, meaning it would be very hard for him to win if it got active. I think this was the right deciscion. I got Relic into play and Wastelanded him off of his last land, with a Pyrokinesis as backup in hand, and slowly beat him down with a couple of 1/1s.

I was looking forward to testing thoughtseize and so far I like it. It was good in both of the combo matchups, and it would have been good versus the Engineered Plague too. I look forward to trying it out some more, to see what it can do versus fair decks, as well as along with cabal therapy versus the unfair ones. Any suggestions on tweaks or better plays are much appreciated as always. :)

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I was looking forward to testing thoughtseize and so far I like it. It was good in both of the combo matchups, and it would have been good versus the Engineered Plague too. I look forward to trying it out some more, to see what it can do versus fair decks, as well as along with cabal therapy versus the unfair ones. Any suggestions on tweaks or better plays are much appreciated as always. :)

I find that there are matchups I should board in my Cabal Therapy, as a 2 of or so, and I fail to do so simply to not having room. It is noticeable against decks Stoneblade decks of any kind, but I can never find the room. Maybe I'm under-valuing it.. or possibly over-valuing it as I want to bring it in a lot. When do you guys board it in; Specifically in fair match-ups?

[jimmythegreek]

I find that there are matchups I should board in my Cabal Therapy, as a 2 of or so, and I fail to do so simply to not having room. It is noticeable against decks Stoneblade decks of any kind, but I can never find the room. Maybe I'm under-valuing it.. or possibly over-valuing it as I want to bring it in a lot. When do you guys board it in; Specifically in fair match-ups?

In which fair matchups do we really want to bring in cabal therapy?I think our over-run method works just fine along with krenko. I 've been thinking about goblins alot lately and find that the mana cost of the deck is simply too high and a hand with three and four drops simply sucks. I've mulliganed to death with this deck often having piley as my lowest mana playable in my hand after going to five. Until goblins gets something cheaper I cant see it really being competitive at the current speed of the format.

[Sandro95]

I find that there are matchups I should board in my Cabal Therapy, as a 2 of or so, and I fail to do so simply to not having room. It is noticeable against decks Stoneblade decks of any kind, but I can never find the room. Maybe I'm under-valuing it.. or possibly over-valuing it as I want to bring it in a lot. When do you guys board it in; Specifically in fair match-ups?

That is one of the reasons I wanted to try a split with Thoughtseize. Cabal Therapy usually doesn't cut it in the fair matchups, but Thoughtseize seems more reliable here, being able to take a TNN, an Engineereed Plague or a Batterskull for example. I have tried boarding in Cabal therapy versus stoneforedecks before, but as you said, we often do not have enough room to make it worth doing so.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

That is one of the reasons I wanted to try a split with Thoughtseize. Cabal Therapy usually doesn't cut it in the fair matchups, but Thoughtseize seems more reliable here, being able to take a True-Name Nemesis, an Engineereed Plague or a Batterskull for example. I have tried boarding in Cabal Therapy versus stoneforgedecks before, but as you said, we often do not have enough room to make it worth doing so.

Remember, only name the things you lose to-- Don't just try to take cards. Try to take relevant cards. If they don't have it, that is great news, you aren't losing to it. Free hand information to boot.

To be clear, I only wanted Cabal Therapy to know if it is correct to cut some odd goblin for a couple of Cabal Therapy in more unusual match-ups.

Assuming the sideboard is 4 Cabal Therapy and no other cards, and just your standard stock goblin list with 2 main-board anti-artifact goblins, would you board in 2 against Miracles, 4; How about Stoneblade, Tezzerator, etc.

I'm just trying to ascertain how powerful it is in our build. I have been play testing it for a while, but I keep finding that when I want Cabal Therapy in a non-combo match-up, I convince myself to not "over-board," regardless if that is true or not. And since I really only can play once a week, I tend to stick to what I've done as it has had results versus the unknown.

I guess I'm saying I want to hear other opinions on it in fair match-ups because I can't seem to break my play-style mold. If I hear positive news, I'd be more willing to board it in.

[Sandro95]

Remember, only name the things you lose to-- Don't just try to take cards. Try to take relevant cards. If they don't have it, that is great news, you aren't losing to it. Free hand information to boot.

To be clear, I only wanted Cabal Therapy to know if it is correct to cut some odd goblin for a couple of Cabal Therapy in more unusual match-ups.

Assuming the sideboard is 4 Cabal Therapy and no other cards, and just your standard stock goblin list with 2 main-board anti-artifact goblins, would you board in 2 against Miracles, 4; How about Stoneblade, Tezzerator, etc.

I'm just trying to ascertain how powerful it is in our build. I have been play testing it for a while, but I keep finding that when I want Cabal Therapy in a non-combo match-up, I convince myself to not "over-board," regardless if that is true or not. And since I really only can play once a week, I tend to stick to what I've done as it has had results versus the unknown.

I guess I'm saying I want to hear other opinions on it in fair match-ups because I can't seem to break my play-style mold. If I hear positive news, I'd be more willing to board it in.

I agree with generally naming what you lose to rather than naming what they are more likely to hold. The problem is that fair matchups in general don't have any one card that just beats us all the time.

I probably wouldn't board them in versus Miracles, at least not on the draw, as they play very well from the top of their deck. I have boarded it in versus Tezzeret to great success before, and would probably do so again. Of course, with Cabal Therapy, how good it is depends a lot on your knowledge of your opponent's deck and the matchup. Versus Stoneblade I'd consider it, because it is an answer to both TNN and equipments, which are arguably their best cards against us. I might board it in on the draw here, when Goblin Lackey doesn't do as much. Also, we generally have less dead cards here than versus Miracles, where some removal can be taken out. However, in reality we have more sideboard cards. For example, versus Stoneblade, I'd rather board in Pyrokinesis. Versus Miracles, I'd rather have Chalice of the Void, as the games can go very long, and it accumulates card advantage over time.

I'd reccomend some dedicated playtest games to see how effective it is in certain matchups, on the play and on the draw. That is something that I'd like to do anyway. I'm going to keep playing Thoughtseize, and I'll keep posting my results and thoughts on it here, to see how effective it is, and maybe that can tell us something about Cabal Therapy as well. :)

[ScatmanX]

Finally got an ok result in here. Wanted to switch from Purphoros, so got the base from a list I payed last year with a mix of GobboLords RB recent lists, and played this:

4 - Badlands
2 - Aunties Hovel
3 - Fetchlands
4 - Cavern of Souls
4 - Wasteland
2 - Rishadan Port
3 - Chrome Mox

4 - Aether Vial
4 - Goblin Lackey
4 - Goblin Matron
4 - Goblin Ringleader

3 - Goblin Warchief
3 - Goblin Chieftain
3 - Warren Instigator
3 - Goblin Piledriver

1 - Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker
1 - Goblin Sharpshooter
1 - Tuktuk Scrapper

1 - Gempalm Incinerator
3 - Tarfire
3 - Warren Weirdings

SB
4 - CotV
4 - Cabal Therapy
2 - Pyrokinesis
1 - Boartusk Liege
2 - Earwig Squad
2 - Sulfur Elemental - should have been Perish...

It was quite a long time since I felt so good playing goblins. The list is very solid.

M1 - Dredge
G1 - Mulled slow hand. Managed to Matron and cast a Sharpshooter, that took care of Bridges (killing Matron), then killed all x/1 dudes, then blocked 2 of 5 zombies, and killed them all, leaving me with only Shooter. After the last Bridge was removed, he had no way to win.
G2 - He is blazing fast.
G3 - I play Lackey. He Careful Studies. I play CotV @1, and he is stuck just dredging normally. Eventually I get Shooter and end the game the same way the 1st.
(4 CotV, 2 Kinesis, 2 Squad, 1 Liege for 4 Vials, 4 Ringleaders and Tuktuk)

M2 - Loam deck from BoM.
G1 - I mull to 6 on the play to get Fetch, 2x Tarfire, Matron, 2x Chrome Mox. Would you keep this?
I did. T1 Matron. Land from top. T2 Ringleader reveals 3. He plays Bob. T3 I Matron into Gempalm to kill it. He gets Relicary. I get Kiki. Manage to put enough pressure to win before Depths.
G2 - Kept a bad 7 against him. 3 Lands, Weirdings, Instigator, dudes. Was to slow to win.
G3 - Kept Lackey, Gator, Gator, Chieftain, Tarfire, 2xCaverns. He play Zenith for Arbor. Lackey trade I drop Gator. He play Ooze. I play Chieftain (off 3rd Cavern) and he chumps Gator. He P.Fire Gator. I drop another that gets Shooter. He plays Liliana, that kills and dies to Shooter. I have only Mox and Tarfire, with 4 Caverns. He play Pridemage. I rip Matron, and thats that.
(1 Liege, 2 Squad for 1 Scrapper, 1 Shooter, 1 Piledriver)

M3 - Miracles
G1 - Mulled, and kept 5 lands + Lackey on the draw. Lackey actually connects and don`t put anything in for 2 turns. He is stuck on 2 lands though, me with Port. Extremely interesting game. He FoW`s a Vial while I had 6 or 7 mana, which turned out to be right. He managed to get CB/Top, then a Jace, against my Shooter. I draw Tuktuk, which is cool because eats mana with him recasting Top. Next turn I play it again, so he flips top, then I try to Weirdings it, which would be lethal. But he has another FoW. Eventually I draw a Ringleader and win.
Question - Would you keep 5 Lands (with Port and Caverns) + Lackey against Miracles?
G2 - Piledriver T2 swings for 1, casually, just for me to play Earwig Squad T3! =D It resolves and takes away Batterskull, Entreat and Humility. So fucking good. Next turn he manages to Terminus. I play Chieftain. He jace. I Warchief. He Entreats for 2. I have some options, but decide to bait counter with Piledriver without Caverns, wich he FoWs, to play CotV@1. He swings, but I kill him 2 turns later with a mix of gooblins, fearing no removal.
(4 CotV, 1 Liege, 2 Squad for 3 Weirdings, 3 Tarfire, 1 Shooter)

M4 - BUG midrange
G1 - My start was pretty good. Manage to kill his Shaman and Goyf, then play Ringleader. Unfortunately it sucked. He kills 4 guys with Toxic Deluge and I get to 7 lands before he kills me.
G2 - Awesome game aswell. Got Vial, he gets Visions. I Port. He gets Shaman. I Waste and Port. He just passes. I Vial in Piledriver. I attack for 1 against his Shaman. He takes it. 3 mana later, EARWIG SQUAD! He brainstorms twice, then it resolves. After some considerations, I find that if I remove 3 Goyfs, his deck becomes suddenly really bad against me. He had to trade the 4th one with Piledriver, and just couldn`t kill Squad. Good times.
G3 - I didnt get to do much this time. Kept 3 Waste, Cavern, Lackey, Tarfire, Gator. Lackey met Decay, and Gator met Goyf. no Weirding this time. When his Visions was about to resolve I wasted his Waste, since protecting my manabase became more important than destroying his. Unfortunately, my table of 2x Gator + Warchief was worse than his of 3 Goyfs + Cascade dude. My Ringleader come to rescue me a couple of turns too late.
(1 Liege, 2 Squad for 1 Shooter, 1 Tuktuk, 1 Piledriver. If had 2 Perish, all Piledrivers would be taken out. If he had TNN, then Instigator would be cut for Piledrivers)

Also, played 2 postboard games against AnT and won them. Deck is solid against combo.
Probably will play the same thing when I can on the future. The weak part I thought about this list is being bad against P.Fire and of course, the manabase. But not have been an issue this time, even facing Wasteland decks and a P.Fire deck.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Congrats.

As for BUG not having Tarmogoyf we kind of already knew that without them their deck has a much harder time stopping us, it's why we bring in, if available, grave hate. How is Warren Weirding doing for you? I find that it is just barely playing on par with what we need, but it's close. Is it merely just "performing" for you as well?

As for your hand, would I keep Fetch, 2x Tarfire, Goblin Matron, 2x Chrome Mox on the play game 1?
Depends if I knew what my opponent is on. If I knew he couldn't just Force of Will my Goblin Matron or Thoughtseize my Goblin Ringleader then I'm down. I'll give you that it has a clear-ish game plan where as Mulliganing to 5 does not, but personally I feel better on 5. Did you know your opponent was playing Niklas Kronberger's list (http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/bazaar-of-moxen-coverage-bom9,24/bom9-legacy-main-event,c147.html) before you shuffled up, or did you just risk it?

[ScatmanX]

I knew what he was playing. Agaist fow or discard decks id snap mull that hand. Still, 1 waste and I would probably lose. Quite a gamble...

I really liked weirdings. They are ok on their on to good, but are excelent if you have a 2nd one or a Tarfire to help clear the boar. Ill definitely try this config again next time.

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[jrw1985]

There was a Modern GP in my home town of Minneapolis last weekend. I haven't played much Magic recently so I thought hitting up one of the Legacy side events would be a sweet idea. I PM'd GoboLord and asked for some insight into the current meta, and he essentially told me that Tarfire, Chieftain, Piledriver and Chalice are all awesome cards now, so I used that as my starting point and put the following list together.

4 Vial
4 Lackey
3 Tarfire

4 Piledriver
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Tinkerer
2 Gempalm
2 Stingscourger
1 Warren Instigator

4 Chieftain
1 Warchief
4 Matron

4 Ringleader
2 Krenko

2 Chrome Mox
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern
5 Fetches
2 Plateau
1 karakas
3 Taiga
1 Mountain

SB
4 RiP
4 Chalice
4 Spirit of the LAbyrinth
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chrome Mox

Card choices:
TSH and Tinkerer and Tuktuk and Grudge: I was not going to lose to equipment.
Spirit of the Labyrinth: I was looking through the top16 decklists from the past few StarCity games events and noticed that Brainstorm and Ponder were everywhere, and so was Grisselbrand and Elves. Storm combo was almost non-existent, so I figured SotL would have more juice than Thalia. Decks like Dredge have card draw engines as well that Spirit interferes with. Also, I really just wanted to play it.
RiP: It's the most powerful GY hate there is. Resolve it against Dredge, Reanimator, RUG Delver, Shardless BUG, Lands, and some combo decks, and you'll probably win. The obvious problem though is you can screw yourself on mana by exposing yourself to wasteland, and it is also very slow.

40 PLayers signed up for the side event. From the locals I recognized I knew there would be Lands and Combo. And there was.

R1 Show and Tell
G1 I was on the play. My opponent was newer to the format. He was playing with Shock lands (Gasp!) and I had no idea what the hell he was trying to do until he cast Show and Tell into my Stingscourger and I won.
I sided in Spirit of the Labyrinth to nullify Griz.
G2 I was ticking up Vials and being awesome. I had 2 Vials and ticked them up to 3 and 4, respectively. I overextended and my opponent wiped my board, then used Sneak Attack to cheat in Emrakul. I had Stingscourger in hand, and I had I not gotten greedy and left 1 Vial @2 I could have won this game. Instead I got spagettied.
G3 was all me. He pyro'd my board away, but I had a Vial @2 at all times with Stingscourger and Spirit in hand to shut him down any way he went. W

R2 TES
G1 I was on the draw and got T0'd.
I sided in Spirit, Chalice, and Chrome Mox.
G2 I mulled to 5 on the play. My hand was Lackey, Lackey, Krenko, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Chalice of the Void. I kept. I played Chalice @ 0 and passed. My opponent Duressed me and obviously got nothing. A turn or two later I started drawing lands and soon I won the game. He has a hand full of 0 cc cards and Chalice completely locked him out.
G3 Once again, my opponent Duressed me T1. He took my Chalice. So I just ripped one of the top of the deck like a champ, dropped a Waste and a Chrome Mox, and cast Calice @ 1 T1. My opponent had a grip full of 1-drops and couldn't get anything going the rest of the game. W

I started off 2-0 against combo decks, despite leaving THalia at home. I felt pretty pleased about that.

R3 RUB Delver/Young Pyromancer
G1 I was on the draw and mulled to 6. T2 I double-Wasted both of his Duals, and he never recovered while I built my board. It is strange how many games of magic are won or lost based on Can You Beat Double Wasteland.
G2 was a lot more fun. My opening hand had Instigator, Chieftain, Warchief, Chrome Mox, Cavern, and lands. Thought it had no removal or CA figured I still had a chance to win based off of the strength of a T1 uncounterable Instigator and a T2 uncounterable Chieftain. We played a Delver and it flipped immediately, so we were both racing. I dropped a Spirit of the Labyrinth which kept him from stacking his deck to force his 2nd Delver to flip. I won a close race with this one. W

R4 Lands w Punishing Fire
G1 I had nothing for him. I had a slow Vial start and he had the Abrupt Decay for it and the Punishing Fire for my T3 Lackey. The game was going nowhere fast so I scooped. I sided in RiP to turn off his Loam engine and make him play more fair.
G2 I mulled to 5 and kept a hand with RiP but no white mana. It was a truly miserable game as I could not draw anything that would be at all relevant all game. L

R5 Spanish Inquisition
G1 I got T1'd on the play.
G2 I kept a hand with Lackey and RiP. I got T1'd again. I could have tried mulling to a Chalice, but my opening 7 had my fasted start (Lackey) and disruption T2, so I just hoped he wouldn't T1 me. Whoops. L

R6 RUG Delver
G1 I drew 3 Cavern of Souls which basically shut off his interactivity except for Bolt. After that I drew out a bolt with Instigator, then I dropped Krenko and he had no answer.
G2 I have no recollection. I lost though.
G3 He played a Delver and it flipped. I played a RiP, but it didn't matter, since I was mana screwed, couldn't draw anything to deal with Delver and that lone Delver just beat me to death. Ugh. L

So I won my first 3 and scrubbed out my last 3. A couple things factored into my losses. First, my manabase sucked. It was super inconsistent R4 and R6, which made it impossible for me to mount an offense. Secondly, card like RiP and SotL, while fun, were entirely too slow, and being off-color was a real liability. Third, were I to do it again, I'd either try to build a mono R deck or a Rb list like Scatman and Gobolord have been posting. Earwig squad is still awesome. Still, I think simpler is probably better now. Consistency was a real issue for me with the manabase, and I had duals and fetches aplenty. Maybe running Rx rather than Rxy is enough to smooth it out.

Ultimately, I went to the tournament loaded for Bear, ready to beat equipment. Instead, I faced combo and Lands. Had I simplified the manabase I could have improved my odds. Rw would have done just fine.

Anywho, that's all I've got. I still had fun and I'll be playing again. I hear SCG is coming back to Minneapolis in September. I'm going to be ready for it.

[potatodavid]

Watched you play and chatted with you between rounds. The field seemed a little rough for the fun fair decks. Hopefully goblins gets some new goodies in M15

[GoboLord]

Hello fellow Chieftains,

I'm in preparation for an upcoming tournament and my list is well-tuned for the metagame, however I have 2 SB slots that I just can't seem to fill accurately.

Here is my list and - much more importantly - my SB for you as reference:

MANA (22)
16 lands that can fix mana well enough
3 Chrome Mox
3 Wasteland

4-offs (32)
Vial
Lackey
WInstigator
Piledriver
Chieftain
Matron
Ringleader
Tarfire

Others (6)
2 Warchief
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weirding

Sideboard
3 Perish
2 Dismember
4 Chalice
4 Earwig Squad
2 ???

My SB covers the most important MU quite well (D&T, Elves, Miracles, BGx) but I feel like if I don't have at least 10 cards against Stormcombo I can just as well play 0. The problem is, that I want something that is good against Show&Tell decks too. The issue is that there are cards that are good against storm, but not at all useful vs. S&T (Mindbreak Trap) and vice versa (Ashen Raider).
There are 3 cards that come into mind that can be used against both decks:

* Cabal Therapy - problem: it's too slow (in the sense that you need to build up your clock in turns 1-3) and not effective enough against storm (its not particularily safe to put cards in their graveyard because of Past in Flames). It's definitely good against S&T though, but storm is a more prominent player over here.

* Pithing Needle - problem: same as with Cabal Therapy, too slow, no real impact against storm. It'S quite a nice option vs. S&T since it shuts down the truly dangerous card (Sneak Attack)

* Phyrexian Revoker - problem: while being "okay" vs. Storm (it is a clock itself and has an actual impact, but it aims at the same card as Chalice of the Void: the artifacts), I find it less useful against S&T, because they will bring in Friespout/Pyroclasm anyway.

So, are there cards that I am missing at the moment? My priorty is to have something to beat storm - but I don't want to be all cold to S&T (Earwig Squads and Chalice are not enough here).

[ScatmanX]

Hey man. Thats the dillema we've been having since snt started to show up again. There is no good storm and snt hate.
In your list Id probably go with Toughtsize or Thorn, but there might be something better out there.
Try to squeeze some Mental Missteps and see if someone catches you =p

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[Yio]

GoboLord, can you explain the rest of your sideboard? What do you exactly side in against what matchups, and why?

[LeoCop 90]

Altough discard is slow, i think it's the best you can afford here . Pyroblast/REB are even worse than discard against storm (but better against show and tell). Thorn of Amethyst seems a solid option too. If you want a clock you could even try Slavering Nulls, but i doubt they can have any impact since they would just discard what they don't need.
Overall i would go with cabal therapy. I think the fact that it is slow is compensated by the blowouts it can sometimes produce.

[GoboLord]

GoboLord, can you explain the rest of your sideboard? What do you exactly side in against what matchups, and why?

Death&Taxes:
-1 Stingscourger, -1 Warren Weirding,
+2 Dismember
Stingscourger is quite bad because they have Vial AND because their creatures have low casting costs. Warren Weirding rarely kills the truly relevant creature and ist also quite hard to cast against Thalia, Wasteland and Rishadan Ports. Dismember immediately kills any creature (except for Mirran Crusader) , even those equipped with Sword of FIre and Ice. And it is my only solution to Brimaz,.

Storm
-4 Vial, -4 Tarfire, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Warren Weirding
+ 4 Chalice, +4 EWS, +2 whatevercard will fill the remaining slots
It should be obvious why I board outh the cards above. I DONT board Tuktuk Scrapper because it can sometimes hit the artifacts they play on turn 1 to dodge Chalice of the Void.

Elves
-4 Vial, -1 Weirding, -1 Stinger, -1 tuktuk Scrapper
+ 4 Chalice, +3 Perish
I leave 1 Scrapper in MD to ocassionally destroy Jitte (in case they are boarding it). I dont bring in EWS because it will usually not connect AND because they dont need specific cards to finish us off. They can just spam creatures and go for it - even without Behemoth.

UW(b) Esper-/Death-/Stone-Blade-(Control?) something
Nothing. Maybe some EWS depending on their list (e.g. when they play Engineered Plague)

Team America
-1 Tuktuk Scrapper
+1 Dismember
Keep 1 Scrapper in MD for ocassional equipments/ Vedalken Shakles, whatever. Dismember for Tarmogoyf and other fatties. Depending oth their list I could also board out another Scrapper and bring in Perish or EWS. I have, as of yet, no sample list of the A-Team on my mind, so it's hard to make clear statements here.

Sneak Show
-4 Tarfire, -2 Tuktuk
+4 EWS, +2 whatevercard will fill the remaining slots
I make wsure to fetch up STingscourger as early as possible to effectively counter Show and Tell. They will usually try to go off with Sneak Attack, so whatever you board in should focus on that.

Miracles
-1 Stinger, -1 Weirding, -2 Tarfire
+ 4 EWS
I want some spotremoval to kill Clique and Snapman, but I know that it is not realistic to actually resolve them. So, Tarfire could also be Chalice I guess. EWS is important because Miracles usually have only few actual winconditions (Terminus is NOT a wincondition without Entreat or Jace)


That's what I would usually do against the SAMPLE-decklists I have on my mind. However, in reality it can be different because I am sideboarding "on the fly" - i.e. based on what I saw in and between the games.

[liamb]

@GoboLord

After reading of your post it just stroke me how good Earwig Squad can be against miracles. Because of lack of blockers it appears to be very easy to met the prowl conditions. I need to test it.

Anyway – one thing is worth to noticed in your sideboard. You only bring in Perish against elves. Would you consider Pyrokinezis as a more flexible (imho) card in your sideboard spots? My assumption is that you perfectly know this card’s pros and cons so I will skip to elaborate about it. It is very good against all those blade decks (esper, bant, uwr), D&T. Eaven against discard decks like Jund or TA it can be house.

As for those flex spots – my choice would be graveyard hate. Relic of Progenitus single-handed deals with goyfs decks (delvers are covered by tarfire and kinezis). Even if it not the best card against reanimator, dredge and storm it can be very helpful.

[Ace/Homebrew]

As for those flex spots – my choice would be graveyard hate. Relic of Progenitus single-handed deals with goyfs decks (delvers are covered by tarfire and kinezis). Even if it not the best card against reanimator, dredge and storm it can be very helpful.
Perish kills Goyf and Mongoose better than Relic of Progenitus. In a list without :b: I would use Relic.

GL - It looks like REB/Pyroblast may be your best option for the final two slots based on what you want from your post above...
It is not the best Storm hate card, but stopping a cantrip isn't nothing. :rolleyes:
It is very good at countering Show and Tell.
It also works as the creature removal you want against Miracles while still working to counter their Counterbalance or kill their Jace, the Mind Sculptor.


Another option is to pick an extremely narrow but effective S+T hate card like Ashen Rider... As Scatman said, "There is no good storm and snt hate."

[GoboLord]

@ Everyone:
Thank you for your suggestions so far. I think discard is indeed the best option available.



Anyway – one thing is worth to noticed in your sideboard. You only bring in Perish against elves.

Well, thats not true. I wrote that I would bring it in vs. Team America if I feel the urge to do so (i.e. when their deck is very "green").
Also, I didn't write a word about how I would board vs decks that are less prominent around here (RUG/bURG Thresh, Bantblade, Jund, Rock, Maverick and the like). So if I meet them I would board Perish of course.

In my list I like Perish more than Pyrokinesis, because I have Chrome Moxen in MD. On the one side: I can ramp into Perish as early as Turn 2 (turn 2 or 3 is the essential turn vs. elves). On the other side: Chrome Mox requires me to remove a card. Pyrokinesis eats a card too. Perish doesn't. I dont want to be in that position where I can wip their board and have no cards left in hand. The card-disadvantage of CHrome Mox AND Pyrokinesis (AND Aether Vial, in some MUs) adds up to a critical degree. I dont want that to happen.

[GoboLord]

Short report.

5 rounds, 22 players. Finished 4th (1st - 5th all had the same score of 12 points).

The list:

MANA (22)
4 Caverns
4 Hovel
4 Fetch
3 Chrome Mox
3 Mountain
3 Wasteland
1 Badlands

4-OFFs (32)
Tarfire
Vial
Lackey
Winstigator
Piledriver
Chieftain
Matron
RIngleader

OTHERS (6)
2 Warchief
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Weirding
1 Stinger

Sideboard
4 Chalice
4 Earwig Squad
3 Perish
2 Cabal Therapy
2 DIsmamber

Matchups:
R1: UR Delver, 1-2
R2: NicFit 1-0-1
R3&4: UWr MIracles/Rest in Peaces 2-0
R5: Homebrew UBG Ctrl 2-1

Conclusions:
* the deck needs more Badlands and fewer Fetchlands
* Earwig Squad is a powerhouse against Ctrl deck - I resolved 8 Squads with prowlcosts today
* I will probably cut Weirding, the rest of the deck perfromed very well

[Sandro95]

Hi everyone, I went 3-1 last wednesday with this list

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Tarfire
1 Warren Weirding
4 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Cabal Theraoy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Engineered Plague
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

I played versus four-color loam R1 (looked similar to this list http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=66925)

R2 I faced Shardless BUG and won. A thoughtseize managed to pull its weight midgame by taking a Toxic Deluge.

R3 I lost versus manaless dredge. I got a relic on t1, but he cycled a Street Wraith in response to me trying to make him exile his dredger, and then a while later when I pulled the trigger he managed to get back into it pretty quickly.

R4 I beat Shardless BUG again.

Thoughtseize still felt good, and performed well here too. I'll probably be playing the same list next week again, and I'll make sure to post a more detailed report.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I got second place for the State Champions, IL, winning me a Volcanic Island. About 36 some odd people showed up, but I was hoping for more. Also I showed up with the intent to play well, not do well. Luckily I must have done some of both.

I ran a list very similar to the proposed list by Jim Davis in his article "Playing the Field." (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27994_Playing-The-Field.html) I used a Wear // Tear over the Ancient Grudge, I fear Engineered Plague. I have found I like the classic lists more than the Chrome Mox builds. Not only am I more comfortable with them I personally love me some Mogg War Marshal.

Mainboard
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire
4 AEther Vial
3 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Stingscourger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tear
2 Confusion in the Ranks
3 Relic of Progenitus

The Tournament
Round 1 - UR Painter Grindstone
Game 1 - I win the die roll and slam a Goblin Lackey down off of a Cavern of Souls and poked him for a while, eventually jamming a Yin Dtreet Hooligan on his Grim Monolith to lower his mana to a point where he could not just blow me out. I board out 3 Tarfire, Gempalm Incinerator and bring in 1 Wear // Tear, 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Game 2 - I mulligan once into an Aether Vial hand and it got countered turn 1. He drops a couple of Painter's Servant and bricks my Mogg War Marshal. It grinds for a bit until I start topdecking a few Goblin Piledrivers and bashed away. He eventually had to block with his Painter's Servant
Game 3 - Goblin Lackey into Goblin Ringleader into Piledriver into Mogg War Marshal and so on. I hit him till he died.

1-0-0

Round 2 - Burn
I knew he was on this deck to scouting.
Game 1 - I mulligan into a playable hand, he drops an 8th edition, Rob Alexander Mountain onto the battlefield and slams a Goblin Guide. I can tell he has some style. I Tarfire the Goblin Guide. The game continues like this, he drew mostly creatures game 1, and I drew mostly removal. Victory. I should note all of his lands were the aforementioned ones. I baord in 2 Pyrokinesis, 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and I take out Skirk Prospector, Goblin Sharpshooter, 3 Gempalm Incinerator. I figured if I won it'd be with a full grip anyway, burn is too fast to mess around and has a deck filled with removal, that can interrupt my Gempalm Incinerator
Game 2 - His clock was just faster, I drew all 3 Tarfire this game with no targets.
Game 3 - All around good game, I had lethal on board when I died, 2 Goblin Piledriver and some dudes to his 12 life.

1-2-0

Round 3 - Dark Maverick
I knew he was on this deck due to scouting.
Game 1 - Mo mulligan twice and start off with Tarfire for his Mother of Runes. And then I effectively stopped playing magic due to his Stoneforge Mystic. I board out 4 Goblin Piledriver for 3 Pyrokinesis and the Wear // Tear.
Game 2 - Goblin Lackey meets Swords to Plowshares. He drops a turn 2 Stoneforge Mystic and pulls Umezawa's Jitte. I Tarfire it rather early to buy time for me to land my Goblin Matron and pull Tin Street Hooligan. On his 4th turn he drops a Linvala, Keeper of Silence and on his 5th equips it with Umezawa's Jitte. I Pyrokinesis the angel and then Tin Street Hooligan the equipment. Mike, my opponent, had this beautiful look of disbeleif-- "Goblins can beat Linvala equipped with Jitte?" Which I did after that, the wind in his sails were gone for that ride. Rishadan Port did some strong work this game keeping him just off balance.
Game 3 - I mulligan again into a keepable hand. The game plays out fairly similarly except that there is no Linvala.

2-1-0

Round 4 - BUG Delver
My personal least favorite matchup. I knew what deck he, pilot is a friend of mine.
Game 1 - I kept this hand. 1 Rishadan Port, Skirk Prospector, 2 Goblin Lackey, Mogg War Marshal, Siege-Gang Commander. Aether Vial resolves. He Wasteland my Rishadan Port and in this and next turn drops a couple of Delver of Secrets. I do not draw a land for the rest of this game. I end of turn a Goblin Lackey in. In response to the vial trigger moving up I put the Skirk Prospector in on my upkeep and drew a Goblin Ringleader. Bashing in with Goblin Lackey I put in a Siege-Gang Commander. My opponent decided to race me fully and just swing out with the team. I get him to 10 on my math but if memory serves I had way more than 10 power on board. I wish I had gone first.

Now here is the dumb part. I am so much in the habit of not having grave hate thanks to the B/R Warren Instigator lists I've been playing I literally forgot to board in Relic of Progenitus. Please, Please, Please don't do not if you are playing against Deathrite Shaman and Tarmogoyf. I literally have the following written down in my notes, in full caps: "RELIC- WOW that was stupid." with an arrow pointing at my sideboard choices. Wear // Tear was for his sideboard Umezawa's Jitte and Engineered Plague.

Game 2 - I use Wear // Tear to blow up a turn 2 Sylvan Library and then we play a really long and grindy game where I got him to 12 or so before the Tarmogoyf. I did not see a Goblin Matron or Goblin Ringleader this game.

2-2-0

Round 5 - Sneak and Show
I was aware he was playing Sneak and Show. I also know this opponent tends to go on tilt easily.
Game 1 - I kept a hand with reasonable clock and a Rishadan Port. His hand had a turn 1 Griselbrand. I board in all 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 2 Confusion in the Ranks, Stingscourger and Aether Vial. I take out 3 Tarfire, 2 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Goblin Sharpshooter, Goblin Ringleader.
Game 2 - According to my notes I pinged him to death with a smattering of small attacks. Pyroclasm. And a smidgen more of that attacking thing. Rishadan Port was very good here.
Game 3 - I made a show of using my Goblin Matron to find a Stingscourger off of a Goblin Lackey to make it appears as if I was ready for Show and Tell for I had a Wear // Tear. He put it down without enough red to use it thanks to Rishadan Port next turn. I blew it up, he had boarded out his Force of Will. Somewhere in the middle when I thought I had him dead he Through the Breach an Griselbrand in and realized he couldn't pay the 7 or he'd be dead on my crackback even after he'd gone from 3 to 10. He went for it anyway, I assume because he thought he could find land Lotus Petal and Pyroclasm. He instead found a much scarier Show and Tell and enough ramp to cast it. I took his flying sphagetti monster with Confusion int he Ranks working with Aether Vial on 2 for Tin Street Hooligan. I killed someone with their own Emrakul, the Aeons Torn today, good feeling.

3-2-0

Round 6 - Miracles
I once again knew my opponents deck due to scouting.
Game 1 - I played 4 Goblin Ringleader and 3 Goblin Matron paced between Swords to Plowshares and Terminus. I board out Skirk Prospector, 3 Tafire bringing in 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Wear // Tear.
Game 2 - I play a very, very similar game but at one critical turn I decide to apply pressure instead of using Rishadan Port. As a note to all of you kids out there. Don't do that. Follow your instinct. He Entreat the Angels for 3 this turn and took my life away in two fell swoops. I should note I had 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in hand and no white source.
Game 3 - See game 1 with a realistic number of Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader.

There was a cut to top 8 here and I was the 8th seat.

Round 7 - RUG Delver (Loser get's a Natural Order from Visions)
I suddenly remember what it's like to have to play against a random deck, as I don't know what he is on.
Game 1 - I won this game with raw beatdown. I didn't draw a Goblin Rinleader or a Goblin Matron this game. Nothing other than that to note really. Lots of trades in combat, Tarfire was cast. Good times. I boarded out Skirk Prosector, Goblin Sharpshooter, 2 Tin Street Hooligan, Tarfire and I boarded in 3 Relic of Progenitus and 2 Pyrokinesis.
Game 2 - He struggles really hard to find a creature but I struggle hard to retain a board against Lightning Bolt and Rough. One play I noted was when I swung with Goblin Lackey and he very quicly replied "it hits." I took this as a subtle cue to mean he had Rough // Tumble. I already had 4 power on board, so I held back. I was rewarded with being right and he Rough // Tubmle my board away. I have him at aproximately "Very Dead." when he decides to Ponder. He was so surprised by those 3 cards he showed them to me. 3 Tarmogoyf. One by one they come down and I don't see a Relic of Progenitus.
Game 3 - I have total board control this entire game thanks to 2 early Relic of Progenitus and a Pyrokinesis which killed 2 flipped Delver of Secrets. The game ended with his empty hand and me casting Tarfire 3 times in a row to the dome.

7-2-0

Round 8 - Death and Taxes (Loser get's a Rishadan Port)
Game 1 - The ideal game plan against Stoneblade is to kill Stoneforge Mysic to slow the process down, break the equipment, and bash. I did that this game. I board out 4 Goblin Lackey and I board in 3 Pyrokinesis and Wear // Tear.
Game 2 - I destroyed a Phyrexian Revoker (on Gempalm Incinerator) with Wear // Tear, Wear // Tear a Sword of Fire and Ice, and Tin Street Hooligan an Ethersworn Canonist which allowed me to bash better. Pyrokinesis ate a Brimaz, King of Oreskos somewhere in there. I took him out this time but I had to actually fight through a board.

8-2-0

Round 9 - BUG Delver (Loser get's a Volcanic Island and winner get's a Mox Emerald.
Different player than last time. I knew what list he was playing because I was sitting next to him last game.
Game 1 - My deck works like the legends tell. Very large board. Skirk Prospector, Goblin Sharpshooter, Siege-Gang Commander, 2 Goblin Warchief amongst other things. He looked very surprised that I just comboed out on him in one random turn. He must not have known of Goblins explosive capabilities. I boarded out 4 Goblin Lackey and in 3 Relic of Progenitus and Wear Tear.
Game 2 - We play a grindy game with me on the defense just waiting to draw a Relic of Progenitus. I didn't and I died. Noted, draw more Relic of Progenitus. I died to 2 Tarmogoyf. I board out 2 Goblin Piledriver, Tin Street Hooligan, Goblin Sharpshooter and in 4 Goblin Lackey.
Game 3 - I must have forgotten to draw Relic of Progenitus because- I didn't do that again. I died to 3 Tarmogoyf.

8-3-0, Won a Volcanic Island.

- Afterthoughts -
Rishadan Port is one of the best cards in the deck. I actively ported fetch lands to make them crack them early. I do not want them being able to get "extra cards" off of Brainstorm and Ponder. I was also able to Wasteland 3 fetch lands today while they were tapped on my next turn. I did not mention the Rishadan Port all that often because similar to wasteland I have grown so used to playing with them it should be assumed they get used. Turning off green sources against RUG and BUG Delver slows everything they do down. Miracles and Show and Tell actively complained about the card.

Siege-Gang Commander was strange. The game state was solidly in my favor because of both times I landed him. He cost 5 so I never tutored for him, or hard cast him. I think it would be correct to swap him for something else. I know it's wrong, but I will probably put Krenko, Mob Boss in that place. Playtesting will reveal more on that, but I don't see it as wrong to not play a "finisher" at all as of right now.

Wear // Tear is very good if you only play 1 Taiga. I would handsdown make the swap to Krosan Grip if there were 2 Taiga in the mainboard. I feel like I need 2 SB enchantment hate cards, not 1. I will probably find room for another later.

Stingsourger should be in the hate package. Goblin Matron is too good not to abuse.

I think I want 4 Relic of Progenitus, I had 3. This card is an all or nothing type of card. I will also figure out what to cut for this later.

Water Bottle. Bring one. Also bring Granola Bars or something. I felt chipper all day thanks to the box of Granola Bars and that bottle of water. I saw other people succumbing to the effects of Fatigue.

All in all, pretty sweet. Like I said, I payed 25 dollars to play an evening of Legacy in a new meta. I got way more than that.

(If I forgot something, I'll edit this post. It is time to sleep, as I am very tired.)

[Sandro95]

I got second place for the State Champions, IL, winning me a Volcanic Island. About 36 some odd people showed up, but I was hoping for more. Also I showed up with the intent to play well, not do well. Luckily I must have done some of both.

I ran a list very similar to the proposed list by Jim Davis in his article "Playing the Field." (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27994_Playing-The-Field.html) I used a Wear // Tear over the Ancient Grudge, I fear Engineered Plague. I have found I like the classic lists more than the Chrome Mox builds. Not only am I more comfortable with them I personally love me some Mogg War Marshal.

Mainboard
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire
4 AEther Vial
3 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Stingscourger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tear
2 Confusion in the Ranks
3 Relic of Progenitus


- Afterthoughts -
Rishadan Port is one of the best cards in the deck. I actively ported fetch lands to make them crack them early. I do not want them being able to get "extra cards" off of Brainstorm and Ponder. I was also able to Wasteland 3 fetch lands today while they were tapped on my next turn. I did not mention the Rishadan Port all that often because similar to wasteland I have grown so used to playing with them it should be assumed they get used. Turning off green sources against RUG and BUG Delver slows everything they do down. Miracles and Show and Tell actively complained about the card.

Siege-Gang Commander was strange. The game state was solidly in my favor because of both times I landed him. He cost 5 so I never tutored for him, or hard cast him. I think it would be correct to swap him for something else. I know it's wrong, but I will probably put Krenko, Mob Boss in that place. Playtesting will reveal more on that, but I don't see it as wrong to not play a "finisher" at all as of right now.

Wear // Tear is very good if you only play 1 Taiga. I would handsdown make the swap to Krosan Grip if there were 2 Taiga in the mainboard. I feel like I need 2 SB enchantment hate cards, not 1. I will probably find room for another later.

Stingsourger should be in the hate package. Goblin Matron is too good not to abuse.

I think I want 4 Relic of Progenitus, I had 3. This card is an all or nothing type of card. I will also figure out what to cut for this later.

Water Bottle. Bring one. Also bring Granola Bars or something. I felt chipper all day thanks to the box of Granola Bars and that bottle of water. I saw other people succumbing to the effects of Fatigue.

All in all, pretty sweet. Like I said, I payed 25 dollars to play an evening of Legacy in a new meta. I got way more than that.

(If I forgot something, I'll edit this post. It is time to sleep, as I am very tired.)

Congratulations! I too have come to the conclusion that Siege-Gang Commander often isn't necessary. Also, how do you feel about Stingscourger, versus fatties and versus other decks?

[liamb]

Perish kills Goyf and Mongoose better than Relic of Progenitus. In a list without :b: I would use Relic. [/cards].



[QUOTE=GoboLord;812268]
Well, thats not true. I wrote that I would bring it in vs. Team America if I feel the urge to do so (i.e. when their deck is very "green").
Also, I didn't write a word about how I would board vs decks that are less prominent around here (RUG/bURG Thresh, Bantblade, Jund, Rock, Maverick and the like). So if I meet them I would board Perish of course.

In my list I like Perish more than Pyrokinesis, because I have Chrome Moxen in MD. On the one side: I can ramp into Perish as early as Turn 2 (turn 2 or 3 is the essential turn vs. elves). On the other side: Chrome Mox requires me to remove a card. Pyrokinesis eats a card too. Perish doesn't. I dont want to be in that position where I can wip their board and have no cards left in hand. The card-disadvantage of CHrome Mox AND Pyrokinesis (AND Aether Vial, in some MUs) adds up to a critical degree. I dont want that to happen.

I didn’t pay attention to your list GoboLord. I missed those chrome moxes that, as you said, amplifies the card-disadvantage in pair with Pyrokinezis.

As for the Relic – I’m here in the same camp with Olaf Forkbeard – I love this card especially in the list with 4 ports/4wastelands. Can’t really compare it to Perish because this card itself has wider scope of usability.

As for GoboLords’s final list - thing to consider – is it optimal to play chalice of the void along with 1cmc discard spells (Cabal Therapy, Thoughtsize)?

Also congratulations to you finishes guys – goblins still looks good in todays meta.

[GoboLord]

Wanted to share with you an interesting situation and I would like to hear your oppinion on that.
The first round of the tournament I am paired against UR Delverburn.

Game 1 He mulls to 5 and I beat him one turn before he has lethal damage on board/in hand.
Game 2 I board in 4 Chalice of the Void. My opponent leads with Goblin Guide. On my turn 1 I play Chrome Mox, Mountain and CHalice @1, which gets Dazed. Turn 2 my opponent casts Grim Lavamancer, attacks and passes. I cast another Chalice which resolves. I lose the uphill battle because my opponent casts his spells into Chalice and eats my board with Lavamancer while Goblin Guide is beating me down.
After G2 my opponent grabs his deckbox. I pretend to use my SB again saying something about how ineffective Chalice of the Void was.

In Game 3 I draw my seven cards which were:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/lw/267.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/on/330.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/mi/152.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/on/205.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/on/205.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/us/191.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/ap/62.jpg

Woud you keep this hand? Why? Why not?

[LeoCop 90]

I would keep. The hand has a very aggressive start (turn 1 piledriver, turn 2 chieftain), and all the tools to win mid-late game. If they have a very fast start with delver and guides you'll need to matron for removal, and if they counter matron you could be in troubles. But overall the hand is very good and while chalice is a house against u/r delver i don't see myself mulling this looking to find a chalice.

Did you mull or keep? And why did you lose this game?

[ScatmanX]

I`d easily keep that hand. T1 would be Hovel, Mox removing Pilidriver, into Piledriver, then probably Chieftain (if he doesn't play Lavamacer T1). Every card you draw from that point that is not Ringleader or Vial will be very good, including lands. I'd not worry about counters either, because they probably won't have 2 (Matron and Ringleader) after board. Once you resolve one of them, the game should be yours.
Why would you think about mulliganing that hand?

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Congratulations! I too have come to the conclusion that Siege-Gang Commander often isn't necessary. Also, how do you feel about Stingscourger, versus fatties and versus other decks?

I thought about it a lot. I often feel like boarding in Stingscourger against decks with Tarmogoyf / Knight of the Reliquary, but I always come to the conclusion that Goblin Piledriver or Tin Street Hooligan, or even Mogg War Marshal is more worth it. Goblin Piledriver is one of the only cards in the deck that can force a trade with a Tarmogoyf. Tin Street Hooligan straight up has 2 power, believe it or not playing him as a Goblin Piker, strangely, is an okay move. Mogg War Marshal has a similar effect in stopping Tarmogoyf on the attack with the added benefit of just always being a dude. He's subtle but his real value lies in you always maintaining a board presence. The best cut is probably Tarfire as it simply is a shock against a body. Most of these arguments go out the window when the "fatties" involved have flying and in this case I am 100% Stingscourger. Other than that you have to determine "Who's the Beatdown (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/3692_Whos_The_Beatdown.html)" for the match overall and if you are, bring him in. The card is so strongly a tempo card that if it is playing another role you are probably losing at that point.



Woud you keep this hand? Why? Why not?
.. I see 8 cards? Am I mistaken?

[GoboLord]

.. I see 8 cards? Am I mistaken?

I am sorry. I checked my notes and I did NOT have a Chieftain in hand. World you still keep it?

[LeoCop 90]

Wow, I didn't notice there were 8 cards XD Without Chieftain the hand is more questionable, but i think i would keep anyway. You lose the initial explosiveness but still matron + ringleader + the mana to cast both (if you topdeck one more land) should be able to win the game. If a cavern was there in place of the hovel hand would be optimal....

I don't know, maybe i'm too much conservative in terms of mulliganing, but i don't see myself ever mulling a hand with 3 mana and some spells , especially if i have a turn one play, unless the matchup is very unfavourable (combo) and i absolutely need specific cards to win. Still i would be happy to know reasons to consider mulliganing and wich hand would you consider better against U/R delver , since i think this can improve my skills.

[ScatmanX]

Well, the hand did got a lpt worse.. still itnis a fine keep. Matron T2 regardless of what you drew its ok, and following that up with Ringleader or whatever 2 cards you drew or tutored for could be very good too.
How have that game played out?

Enviado de meu GT-S6313T usando Tapatalk

[GoboLord]

Thank you for your feedback so far. I struggled before I took a mulligan. I thought that mulliganing into a Turn 1 or turn 2 Chalice @1 would immediately win me the game. Also I found 2 Piledrivers quite unappealing when my opponent has so many ways of handling them. So I took a mulligan to see this:

Mountain
Vial
Vial
Chalice
Warchief
Chieftain

I didn't draw land #2 until turn 4 which was way too late of course.

I hindsight I should definitely have kept the first hand for the reasons you guys listed. I made two mistakes in my thinking process.
(1) I thought that 2 Piledrivers are unattractive without haste. However in fact I had only 1 Piledriver since the other should definitely be removed for Chrome Mox. Also I didn't realize that even a turn 1 Piledriver (and MAtron and Ringleader on the following turns) would push my opponent into defense. Even if he had removal, he wouldn't be able to build up a fast clock. Also Piledriver is pretty good against Delvers.

(2) I neglected the fact that he almost lost to Chalice in G2 and that he boarded after that. So, I if I had read him correctly I could have seen that his opening hand was prepared to fight CHALICE. In other words, he kept cards that can bounce/destroy/counter artifacts (Echoing Truth/Spell Pierce/Smash to Smithereens), or those that can ignore it (Delver, Lavaman). If I had kept a all-creature-hand like the first one, I could have blanked some of his cards, which is exactly what I wanted Chalice to do.

In fact I ended up loosing against double Delver, backed up by2 Spell Pierce and Echoing Truth.
I clearly made a mistake here and my mulligan decision cost me the game (although I cant say for sure that my first hand would have beaten him, I CAN tell that the second didn't)

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Though you've already stated your reasoning, I would keep that hand. It's a little slow but has a very clear game-plan. I usually keep hands with game-plans.


Aside: I'm still struggling with BUG of any kind. I've determined, based on what I've heard others state on the source as well as in real life, that I must be playing "badly" or "wrong" in the mid game because the match-up is "Tough, but beatable." Does anyone know what I'm talking about at all? Or even if there is some videos or tips to fight it?

And yes, both Shardless BUG and BUG Delver. They both can and have played Hymn to Tourach and I'm finding that it's a critical piece in my losses.

[GoboLord]

Though you've already stated your reasoning, I would keep that hand. It's a little slow but has a very clear game-plan. I usually keep hands with game-plans.


Aside: I'm still struggling with BUG of any kind. I've determined, based on what I've heard others state on the source as well as in real life, that I must be playing "badly" or "wrong" in the mid game because the match-up is "Tough, but beatable." Does anyone know what I'm talking about at all? Or even if there is some videos or tips to fight it?

And yes, both Shardless BUG and BUG Delver. They both can and have played Hymn to Tourach and I'm finding that it's a critical piece in my losses.

I think I know what you are talking about. This is the MU I want to start practicing soon, because BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, Team America....all of those are very popular around here. I cant tell how the MU plays out in detail, but depending on how "green" their list is Perish is a good choice to bring it. If I remember correctly SHardlessBUG plays DRS, Tarmogoyf and Shardless Agent, maybe some number of Scavenging Ooze too. That means Perish should usually wipe their board clear if it resolves.
While discard is indeed problematic (especially Hymn to Awsomeness) I think that is only a REAL issue when they already have a creature on board and/or when they strip your creatures from your hand. My "advice" would therefore be to make sure that their board is empty as often as possible and "force" them to play creatures instead of discard spells. That won't work everytime of course, but it's a plan at least.
Also I found Aether Vial pretty bad against anything that is BGx and has discard magic. We discussed elsewhere how Aether Vial is card-disadvantage/ manaramp/ counterprotection and you can ask yourself if you want that against a deck with both Abrupt decay and Discard spells. Depending their number of discard spells I would board out Aether Vial (e.g. Team America is likely to play Hymn to Tourarch, because it's more midrange, while BUG delver usually has only few 1-mana-discard spells and no Hymn.

I can tell you more about that as soon as I have played the MU a few times, but thats my impression on those decks so far.
What is your impression? Which cvards did you find effective against BUG decks - and which cards would you board out etc.?

//EDIT: Every BUG list plays DRS plays DRS and some even Delver and/or Shardless Agent. So maxing the number of Tarfires in MD is a good idea too. Maybe you can add the 4th copy to your MD?

[Olaf Forkbeard]

What is your impression? Which cards did you find effective against BUG decks - and which cards would you board out etc.?

//EDIT: Every BUG list plays DRS plays DRS and some even Delver and/or Shardless Agent. So maxing the number of Tarfires in MD is a good idea too. Maybe you can add the 4th copy to your MD?

I've found that in this one particular match-up that Krenko, Mob Boss is better than Siege-Gang Commander specifically against BGx decks. I was legitimately thinking about side-boarding one for Deathrite Shaman / Thoughtseize decks. The problem is that he is actually just worse than Siege-Gang Commander in just about every other matchup, save maybe Maverick.

If I do drop my Siege-Gang Commander, which I am on the fence about, it would be for a Tarfire / Stingscourger. With this match-up in mind, maybe it should be Stingscourger. Then again, these are MUCH worse against traditional combo. I don't have to explain how Stingscourger works against Show and Tell though, so there's that.


Relic of Progenitus / Rest in Peace are very strong here.

I do remember the arguments about boarding out Aether Vial in this match-up and I understand the reasoning, but at the same time we are almost directly causing a mulligan. You don't need a fast hand in this match-up per say, but you do need to be able to deal with turn 2 Tarmogoyf and it's turn 3 and 4 swing. Which is rough if you are on the draw.

Really that's the issue right there. Relic of Progenitus isn't as powerful against BUG as it is against RUG Delver.
RUG: Shrinks 2/3 of their creature base.
BUG: Shrinks Tarmogoyf and fights Deathrite Shaman specifically against your graveyard.

Where as Rest in Peace is harder to resolve, but literally solves all of the problems.

So in conclusion I guess I should think about adding another Plateau to my main, without cutting a fetch or white source, and play some Rest in Peace.

[Tyrio]

The new Conspiracy Goblin seems interesting. Since every Goblin in the deck is 2 power or less sans Krenko, he seems like he has some potential. Imagine recurring all your Terminus-ed Ringleaders :eek:

[Megadeus]

Being able to simply vial him in at 2 seems awesome with that ability.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Something to look forward to!

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/841/635363102912397528.jpg

[GoboLord]

Something to look forward to!

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/841/635363102912397528.jpg

Honestly I don't like that card at all. The X in his manacost (or rather: the ability to randomly pump him up) will hardly matter.

His activated ability will let you invest 2 mana for nothing about 50% of the time. Even worse than that: You KNOW that the guy will do nothing after you resolved a Ringleader. Also, if he does NOT flip a goblin from the bottom you will put something like Aether Vial or a land-card, or some SB-card into your graveyard - all of which can easily affect the game in a negative way, e.g. by pumping Goyfs (in case of Vial) or feeding DRS (in case of lands or spells). We are rarely out of hand-cards and spending 2 mana isn't nothing. You will almost always rather spend 2 mana to cast Piledriver (or activate Wasteland, or use RIshadan Port) than keep lands untapped to activate Grenzo.

My judgment might seem a little harsh, but we have such a large number of playable cards (which is a bit of a dilemma for deckdesign). I think new cards have to pass a certain threshold to find their way in our deck - and this threshold is that the first reaction to the card must be a clear YES, PLEASE and not a "maybe we could...". This was the case with Legion Loyalist ( a "maybe" card) and with Krenko (a "YES, PLEASE"-card). But even Krenko isn't an auto-include. That shows where our threshold is right now. Grenzo does not pass that threshold.

[ScatmanX]

As always, I'm going to test this card. Guess GobboLord might be right in some points, but I see great potential in it. It can be an awesome topdeck lategame, netting you a bunch of cards. Maybe the deck needs to be rethought a little to include him - like maxing Gempalms again - but I can definitely see blowouts coming from this one. Will certainly buy 2-3.

[liamb]

I see this card as a RANDOM card advantage engine. Only time when you will be able to choose the card you want to put into battlefield is after resolved Terminus. Other than that, it is again – such a random effect. If you will get creature card (as GoboLord said - c.a. 50% chance) you will only get a random goblin (rarely the one you want). He also will do next to nothing when you will active its ability after playing Goblin Ringleader (except rare cases when you will hit 4 goblins from the top and there still will be goblin on the bottom).

Still – it is 2cmc goblin, his ability can be active multiple time at instant speed and the activation costs colorless mana.

[BVB09]

This guy doesn't work with Rest in peace right?
I like him, the ability being colorless is extremely important. Relevant body (not like most of our creatures) he can become bigger than a goyf and could win on his own against Engineered Plague.
Doesn't die to Golgari charm/Zealous and helps us recovering. Looks really good against Miracles.
Even though it's ability doesn't always get something interesting, getting a Siege gang, Matron or Ringleader is quite broken.

Don't take this comparison too seriously, but it's similar to Natural Order, Stoneforge mystic and Tinker in the sense that it tutors and cheats into play, and those effects together are quite powerful.

[LeoCop 90]

Well , the card is good, no doubt. It can win on its own if stays on the battlefield and you are not incredibly unlucky with its ability .... and it is never a dead topdeck since you can just dump all your mana on him and play him as a giant creature.

But is him what legacy goblins needs ? My answer is no. We already have A LOT of card advantage (probably the best engine in legacy together with shardless bug) , and our problem is just that our deck is risking to become a little too slow for legacy. When they print a new goblin, I always wish it is something that can help combo matchups or an awesome goblin-removal spell. Plus, all the problems that gobolord listed about Grenzo are real.

All in all, I don't think this card can make a huge impact in our deck, but i won't blame who will play him as a one-off in a R/B list.

[Avatara]

If you are looking into maximizing Grenzo you might want to consider hideaway lands like: Spinerock Knoll. It's the best and easiest way to stack things in order on the bottom of our library I think. (Without disrupting our normal game plan)

[Ace/Homebrew]

I am in the same camp as Scatman regarding Grenzo: optimistic and looking forward to testing.

I am simplifying here but... there was a time when the control third of 'rock, paper, scizzors' was highly favorable for Goblins. Miracles is not our worst matchup, but it is far from being a gimme. Can anyone name a DTB where we are greater than 60% to win?

Having said that, for Goblins to break out of tier 2 status it needs some good matchups. If having 1 Grenzo main and 1 in the board makes the Miracles matchup 60%+ in our favor then maybe we'll be tier 1.5 for as long as Miracles is king...


P.S. - I love how he laughs at Plague!

[LeoCop 90]

Honestly i always felt like i have a 60% or more winning chance against miracles. As long as you play decently ( mainly not overextend without real reasons ) , you should be able to overcome their defense even through things like double terminus. We play too many problematic cards for them (resolved vial is a pain, turn one lackey is answered only by swords to plowshares, cavern of souls is fantastic, ringleaders and matrons counter their terminus, piledriver protection from blue is actually very relevant when the only early blockers they have are snapcasters and cliques).
Post board things can get spicy if they play things like moat , humility , energy field, but even then i don't feel we are unfavoured especially if we have access to krosan grip. And i don't think recent lists play moat or other very problematic cards.

[jrw1985]

Something to look forward to!



Ooooooooooooooooh

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh

This guy is great. Why is he great?because he's 2/2. Were he 1/1 you'd actually have to cast him in order to make his ability useful. But his ability is still totally playable when he comes in off of Vial or Lackey.

Here's another reason why he's so great: CA. I don't care that its random CA. Ringleader is random CA too, and ringleader is the shit. Goblins is first and foremost a CA deck. Cheating guys in is great, as is mana disruption, but our bread and butter has always been Having More Cards. But we've been losing that edge. Jace, SFM, Batterskull, Snapcaster, Lingering Souls, Punishing Fire, Lilliana, Grisselbrand: Decks have so many more CA options now than they did five years ago that our CA engine is looking less and less prolific by comparison. Well, now we have a cheap option that gives us more built-in CA, and his X ability actually makes him a threat/blocker in games that go long. He won't really help against combo, but you can now stack Thalia on the bottom of your deck with ringleader and still get her in play. Good Times.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

He won't really help against combo, but you can now stack Thalia on the bottom of your deck with ringleader and still get her in play. Good Times.

Is the coolest thing I've heard about Grenzo, Dungeon Warden so far. I'm not really for him. I will certainly test him, as I think he is barely in the threshold of a possible 1 of, but I have doubts for his actual power level in play. I agree with Gobolord just about entirely. And I would argue that Goblin Ringleader is the biggest problem for him as our "Best" card just about shuts him off.

All in all I'd call him "Neat!" but being neat doesn't necessarily win games.

[ScatmanX]

IAnd I would argue that Goblin Ringleader is the biggest problem for him as our "Best" card just about shuts him off.
Yeah. Guess we'd have to run some fetchlands then...

In all seriousness, the Thalia thing looks very cool. Imagine with Magus of the Moon or cannonist. Insane. But that might be another deck...

Another point is that i dont actually see myself casting him for a lot of mana except in alpha strike or e.plague situations. Activating him lots of times seem better than having a big dude. Might be wrong though.
Will start working on lists when i can.

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[jrw1985]

Yeah. Guess we'd have to run some fetchlands then...

In all seriousness, the Thalia thing looks very cool. Imagine with Magus of the Moon or cannonist. Insane. But that might be another deck...

Another point is that i dont actually see myself casting him for a lot of mana except in alpha strike or e.plague situations. Activating him lots of times seem better than having a big dude. Might be wrong though.
Will start working on lists when i can.

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Brilliant. Or another R/B hatebear.

[jrw1985]

I'm still thinking about this new goblin, and there are a host of possibilities with him.

First off, this dungeon dude is a real card advantage machine. He's Moggcatcher on crank. And he joins Matron, Ringleader and Gempalm in being a card that allows you to get more cards from your library into play.

Secondly, he's also a dirty cheat, just like Lackey, Vial and Warren Instigator (and Goblin Wizard who is still horrible).

The real beauty in this card though is that he combines CA and cheating into one easy to open package. He is Lackey AND Ringleader. He is Show and Tell AND Griselbrand. And his mana cost and activation cost absolutely make him legacy playable.

I can absolutely see this card becoming a staple of the deck. His activated ability is perfectly redundant for the deck, which means we might actually be able to increase our threat density. I'm not wording that correctly, but what I mean is he might just be able to replace a couple Vials. Many very interesting possibilities.

And I haven't even gotten into how he will make Ringleader+Hatebears better post board. He turns Ringleader from a Liability into an Asset when you're digging for a Hatebear! Amazing.

I've said my piece for now. Off to bed. With visions of goblins dancing in my head.

[LeoCop 90]

I can absolutely see this card becoming a staple of the deck. His activated ability is perfectly redundant for the deck, which means we might actually be able to increase our threat density. I'm not wording that correctly, but what I mean is he might just be able to replace a couple Vials

This goblin would make our mana hungry deck even more mana hungry, so cutting vials for him is contradictory in my view. Doesn't matter increasing threat density if you can't efficiently cast those threats. I understand that Grenzo cheats goblins into play, but without vial you would just be playing turn 2 Grenzo, turn 3 activate him once and if he doesn't hit you probably lose at that point because you wasted an entire turn.
Moreover, I suppose that playing Grenzo could be viable only in lists without rishadan ports, since really, how many things can we realistically afford to do with our mana? Sacrifice wastelands, activate ports, activate Grenzo... seems a bit unrealistic to me.

On another note, looks like they printed in m15 a 3 mana elf with ETB destroy an artifact or enchantment.... i wonder how many times we'll have to wait to see a 3 mana shatter goblin

[Humphrey]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=39571&type=card

[Avatara]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=39571&type=card
Foodchain is a lot better I think.. we can already produce infinite mana with it (or skirk prospector); allowing us to play our whole library with the new legend.

[Tyrio]

Foodchain is a lot better I think.. we can already produce infinite mana with it (or skirk prospector); allowing us to play our whole library with the new legend.

You can't use abilities with Food mana.

[Final Fortune]

The dude isn't just board advantage, he's tempo advantage. For a swing of that magnitude he had better have a 50% failure rate. The dude is just a removal magnet compared to Goblin Piledriver or Mogg Fanatic.

[LeoCop 90]

New goblin in m15, this time really crappy.

Goblin Rabblemaster 2R (Rare)

Other goblin creatures you control attack each turn if able.
At the beginning of your combat phase, put a 1/1 goblin token with haste on the battlefield.
When Goblin Rabblemaster attacks , it gets +1 +0 untile end of turn for each other attacking goblins.

2/2

[Sandro95]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/841/635363102912397528.jpg
+ He costs two mana, which is important considering that Vial goblins are generally short on twodrops.
+ He is a mana sink in long, drawnout games where you draw to many lands, and too few goblins.
+ He is a card advantage engine that generates more card advantages the longer the game goes and he will often get to use his ability at least once the turn he is played.
+ The ability to give him a large body makes him excellent versus Lightning Bolt, Engineered Plague, and smaller ground creatures.
+ He is great when Terminus is the most commonly played sweeper in the format.
− He costs RB, meaning he will not always be castable.
− He is legendary, meaning he is vulnerable to an opposing Karakas, and makes drawing additional copies less attractive.
− Goblin Ringleader putting non-goblin cards on the bottom of your library, making his ability less useful. Although this could make finding nongoblin creatures like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben easier.
− He is vulnerable to Abrupt Decay.
− He is best in the later stages of the game when Aether Vial will usually be on three or four, not two.

How to construct a deck with Grenzo?
There are several cards that go great with Grenzo, putting creatures on the bottom of your library. These cards include cards like Magma Jet or the hideaway lands, but I don’t think we want to dilute our deck too much. Then there is Karakas, which may be difficult to include in a RB list, but is still worth consideration. His ability also makes Gempalm Incinerator more attractive compared to other removal spells like Tarfire and Warren Weirding. Powerful creatures like Siege-Gang Commander would work well with Grenzo. Rishadan Port may seem less useful when you want to spend all your mana activating Grenzo’s ability, but it also slows the game down, moving to the late game where Grenzo is at his best. His RB manacost and his manasink ability make us want more lands, whereas simultaneously we want a higher density of creatures to hit with him. While his ability to make up for the card disadvantage from Chrome Mox may be useful in Winstigator lists, I think he will be stronger in a more traditional, slower list. Warren Instigator may be the best two drop on turn two (or one), but he may also be less effective on later turns. In addition to that, the Chrome Moxen would decrease the creature density of the deck, as would Tarfire which is often preferred over Gempalm Incinerator in Winstigator lists due to removing early blockers being more important than the card advantage from Gempalm Incinerator. Fetchlands rather than Auntie’s Hovel and additional Badlands may also work well with, enabling you to shuffle away cards put on the bottom with ringleader, although this may be only a minor bonus.

Just some thoughts on Grenzo. What do you think? What else should be taken into consideration?

[GoboLord]

Thank you for this comprehensive overview. Some comments:


+ He is a mana sink in long, drawnout games where you draw to many lands, and too few goblins.
We should think about if we want to play long games in the first place. Legacy is becoming faster and there is hardly any MU left that I would wish to last longer than 5 turns. We cut Siege-Gang COmmander for similar reasons: the games don't take long enough for him to show his potential.


He is great when Terminus is the most commonly played sweeper in the format.
I personally never had problems with Miracles and/or Terminus. In my last tournament I literally CRUSHED them with a straigth 4-0 in games. I resolved vs these decks 4 Earwig Squads and none of them grabbed a Terminus. So, Terminus isn't really a good argument for Grenzo.


His ability also makes Gempalm Incinerator more attractive compared to other removal spells like Tarfire and Warren Weirding.
I have doubts here. We are playing Tarfire (which is a bad card on it's own) for certain reasons: DRS, Delver and SFM. I would not go back to Gempalm just because there is a new 1- or 2-off in the deck that works better with Gempalm than with Tarfires. Also, flipping a Gempalm Incinerator into play isn't overwhelming. Sure, it better to spend 2 mana for a 2/1 body than 2 mana for nothing, but considerinh how frequently this difference will matter I would not play GI over Tarfires.


the Chrome Moxen would decrease the creature density of the deck,
This is not true. Nobody is playing in Chrome Mox in a slot that would potherwise be reserved for a creature. Chrome Moxen are "lands" in that sense.



I also want to add that Grenzo can possibly replace one or two Winstigators in a Mox/WInstigator-list. I see two advantages here. First, casting him on turn 1 is actually a threatening play - and cutting WInstigators in favor of Grenzo seems legit since we don't really need MORE cheaters. Recently I felt like I have to few goblin-cards in hand and too many WInstigators in play (which you can actually regulate with Chrome Mox, but that's another story) - and I feel like Grenzo could partly take over the job.
Second, he's a nice pitch-target for Chrome Mox. Not only does he provide R/B mana, but you can also put him into Chrome Mox when you have multiple copies of Grenzo in your hand, thus making his Legendary-status matter less.

[potatodavid]

New M15 goblin spoiler, Pile...king...driver...generator...

http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/goblinrabblemaster.html

[Humphrey]

New goblin in m15, this time really crappy.

Goblin Rabblemaster 2R (Rare)

Other goblin creatures you control attack each turn if able.
At the beginning of your combat phase, put a 1/1 goblin token with haste on the battlefield.
When Goblin Rabblemaster attacks , it gets +1 +0 untile end of turn for each other attacking goblins.

2/2

looks fine for modern, though

Actually Grenzo and Mana Echoes might be the new Foodchaingoblins.

[Sandro95]

Thank you for this comprehensive overview. Some comments:


We should think about if we want to play long games in the first place. Legacy is becoming faster and there is hardly any MU left that I would wish to last longer than 5 turns. We cut Siege-Gang COmmander for similar reasons: the games don't take long enough for him to show his potential.


I personally never had problems with Miracles and/or Terminus. In my last tournament I literally CRUSHED them with a straigth 4-0 in games. I resolved vs these decks 4 Earwig Squads and none of them grabbed a Terminus. So, Terminus isn't really a good argument for Grenzo.


I have doubts here. We are playing Tarfire (which is a bad card on it's own) for certain reasons: DRS, Delver and SFM. I would not go back to Gempalm just because there is a new 1- or 2-off in the deck that works better with Gempalm than with Tarfires. Also, flipping a Gempalm Incinerator into play isn't overwhelming. Sure, it better to spend 2 mana for a 2/1 body than 2 mana for nothing, but considerinh how frequently this difference will matter I would not play GI over Tarfires.


This is not true. Nobody is playing in Chrome Mox in a slot that would potherwise be reserved for a creature. Chrome Moxen are "lands" in that sense.



I also want to add that Grenzo can possibly replace one or two Winstigators in a Mox/WInstigator-list. I see two advantages here. First, casting him on turn 1 is actually a threatening play - and cutting WInstigators in favor of Grenzo seems legit since we don't really need MORE cheaters. Recently I felt like I have to few goblin-cards in hand and too many WInstigators in play (which you can actually regulate with Chrome Mox, but that's another story) - and I feel like Grenzo could partly take over the job.
Second, he's a nice pitch-target for Chrome Mox. Not only does he provide R/B mana, but you can also put him into Chrome Mox when you have multiple copies of Grenzo in your hand, thus making his Legendary-status matter less.

You make very good points as always, thank you!

[Avatara]

Cost/Efficiency comparison between Grenzo and Ringleader:

Lets assume we play a Ringleader and reveal the following cards: Goblin Matron, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Lackey and Mountain. It's turn 4 and we've hit all of our land drops.

The Ringleader itself costs 3R, playing all the cards drawn will cost a total of 3RRR -> total: 6RRRR

Assuming that the same cards are on the bottom of our library and we play Genzo instead of Ringleader:

Grenzo itself costs BR (but we have the option to play him for more +2 to make him 4/4 instead of 2/2 but we miss out on the chance of putting a creature in play). Regardless activating his ability will cost 8 mana -> total 8BR

- in this situation Grenzo is just as mana efficient as Ringleader;
- goblin ringleader will never be more than a 2/2 where Grenzo has the potential to be one of the biggest creatures on the battlefield (that still functions as a card advantage engine).
- Grenzo's potential isn't effected by discard spells;

Looking purely at statistic; I believe that Grenzo is at the very least on the same power level of Goblin Ringleader. Ignoring him would be a big mistake in my opinion.

[dte]

@ Avatara

In your analysis, you forget (at least) vial, lackey and warchief wich all decrease the costs in the ringleader version but not in the Grenzo one.

In a Grenzo-centric buil, why not, but in the classic one it is really a nonbo with ringleader, and really inferior.

[Avatara]

@ Avatara

In your analysis, you forget (at least) vial, lackey and warchief wich all decrease the costs in the ringleader version but not in the Grenzo one.

In a Grenzo-centric buil, why not, but in the classic one it is really a nonbo with ringleader, and really inferior.

Grenzo can be dropped at turn 4 (or even at turn 3) with vial and you can spend all your 4 mana to flip cards.. Grenzo could have already been flipping cards at turn 3 because you played him at turn 2. Connecting lackey at turn 2 will allow you to start flipping cards at turn 2 as well ;)

And don't forget that it's not Ringleader or Grenzo.. Grenzo competes with MWM and instigator.. maybe even with Matron and Piledriver?

[potatodavid]

I don't like grenzo over ringleader. The cards hit the graveyard and are immediately susceptible to yard hate. Do I believe people will be boarding in R.I.P. if this becomes a thing? Probably not, the ringleader just seems strictly better for monocolor/haste reasons. It's the best card in Goblins, I don't feel Grenzo should be compared to ringleader.

[Avatara]

I don't like grenzo over ringleader. The cards hit the graveyard and are immediately susceptible to yard hate. Do I believe people will be boarding in R.I.P. if this becomes a thing? Probably not, the ringleader just seems strictly better for monocolor/haste reasons. It's the best card in Goblins, I don't feel Grenzo should be compared to ringleader.

As I said before.. Genzo doesn't compete with Ringleader. I would never suggest dropping Ringleaders.. I'm talking about about the power level of the card and comparing it to Ringleader (our most powerful card) gives a good indication of how powerful it really is. You'd be pretty bonkers, in my opinion, to run 3-4 MWM exclusive to any number of Grenzos.

Ringleader: 2/2 3R haste. Puts 0-4 goblin cards into your hand.
Grenzo: 2+x/2+x (x)BR. Puts 0-xx creature cards into play.
Mogg War-Marshal: 1/1 1R (+echo). Puts 1 1/1 goblin into play and maybe another one.

[ScatmanX]

Im founding incredibly dificult to build a deck with Grenzo. Im starting to think that a build with only 4-5 removals should be better.
Cutting Ports because of it doesnt make sense, since theyre both powerful when not togheter, and can eventually be good togheter too.
Putting him in Instigator lists looks good to me because we can actually overload the board with must answer creatures. On the other hand, with mwm we can buy ourselves enough time to really abuse him.
Could nit manage to build a rwb list YET. Quite hard to fit Thalia. The manabase is workable though.

I hope that someday i get to live the dream of ramdomly getting like a SGC and a Chieftain the same turn. That would be sick.

Edit= 3 decklista ready. Wil post them tomorrow =D

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[jrw1985]

I don't like grenzo over ringleader. The cards hit the graveyard and are immediately susceptible to yard hate. Do I believe people will be boarding in R.I.P. if this becomes a thing? Probably not, the ringleader just seems strictly better for monocolor/haste reasons. It's the best card in Goblins, I don't feel Grenzo should be compared to ringleader.

The only grave hate the cards are susceptible to is RiP and LotV. I would be thrilled to see either of those boarded against us. Then just bash with Grenzo as a 5/5 beater or something.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I actually put This Grenzo List (http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=1012560) together with appropriate proxies, and gave it a few games. Preliminary testing shows his niche role is to put goblins into play in the face of Counterspell and Counterbalance, and being a 3/3 about as often as he is a 2/2. The Counterspell argument we were not very worried about to begin with, but the body has been relevant a few times. Remember you can pay 1 into X if you have a Goblin Warchief out without using any extra mana. 601.2e (http://magiccards.info/rule/601-casting-spells.html) if anyone was curious, though it does not say it directly, the wording is there. (Have Goblin Warchief out. Declare "Spending (1)(R)(B), (1) from Goblin Warchief, to cast Grenzo, Dungeon Warden." Actually just spend (R)(B).)


4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 AEther Vial
3 Mountain
2 Badlands
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

2 Earwig Squad
1 Stingscourger
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Perish
2 Wear
2 Confusion in the Ranks
4 Rest in Peace

I put the SB together rather hastily. Needs at least 1 more storm hate card, figured it didn't matter much since this is for testing Grenzo, Dungeon Warden. He won't even be relevant in that match up. I haven't even noticed the Goblin Ringleader issue. I'm positive it will come up, I only played about 10 games, a few each against Miracles, RUG Delver and 1 against Merfolk, because that particular player must be a Masochist.


Edit -- I apparently had Grenzo, Dungeon Warden listed as Rakdos Guildmage. I copied and pasted it from another program and was using them as a substitute. Sorry for the confusion if it caused any.

[jimmythegreek]

Adder-staff boggart combos nicely with grenzo.

[Avatara]

@Olaf Forkbeard My list is completely different. After almost 8 hours of testing I run the following list:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Matron
4 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

4 Aether Vial

2 Mountain
4 Spinerock Knoll (maybe -1 and +1 badlands/mountain or maybe even +1 Rishadan Port?)
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Badlands
1 Plateau

I'm not certain about the numbers of cards like Spinerock Knoll.. I feel as if 3 would be a better number. 4 Matron felt a bit much in combination with 4 Ringleaders and 4 Grenzo; so I dropped them to 3. I feel as if Spinerock Knoll is needed in order to maximize the power of Grenzo; that's why I also run 4 Siege-Gang Commanders. Port isn't an option in this version of the decklist.. Thalia however keeps some of the mana "denial". Thalia will hit the battle field more often with Grenzo than with a classic build.

Grenzo is really hard for your opponent to play against.. he messes with their head. Spinerock Knoll is INSANE.. even in turn three he can help Grenzo (vial or hardcast turn 2) put Siege-Gang Commander/Thalia/Ringleader etc into play. Mid/Late game Knoll assures you 2+ extra goblins into play most of the time as long as you have Grenzo.

Your opponent MUST answer Grenzo.. otherwise a whole world of possibility opens up that they need to take into account.

/edit:

if you want to add more toolbox stuff you could +1 matron -1 grenzo -2 siege-gang commander +2 toolbox cards (tarfire/sharpshooter/prospector).. but as of now I'm having too much fun with Grenzo+Spinerock Knoll+Siege Gang Commander combination (or even dropping a blind Siege-Gang now and then). It feels as if even flipping lands from our bottom makes Ringleaders more powerful (after shuffles).

[Olaf Forkbeard]

@Olaf Forkbeard My list is completely different.

So you are suggesting a new sub-archetype, similar to how Warren Instigator and Classic lists are different? On that assumption you could be correct. Your particular build looks more more volatile than my list, which is to say more powerful bullets in a gun that is more likely to break. I personally don't like Spinerock Knoll very much in Legacy, coming into play tapped matters very much, and could lead to some otherwise keep-able hands being lost. That being the downside I don't think the upside of putting specific cards on bottom for Grenzo, Dungeon Warden outweighs it. My brain immediately went to needing that 4th land for ringleader and drawing Spinerock Knoll, as least as 1 example. Mana hungry deck is mana hungry.

Grenzo, Dungeon Warden has not proven to be "insane" in any of my testing, what he has proven is that he does exactly what the card text says. He sometimes puts cards into play, 50% of the time or so, and sometimes he literally cannot put cards into play without burning the bottom cards of my deck, which can be mitigated with shuffle effects or Spinerock Knoll as you suggested. He has fed opposing Deathrite Shaman and Tarmogoyf in testing as well, which is bad as those match-ups are in the "tough" category.

I warn you of what is called the hot-hand fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-hand_fallacy) wherein a person who has experienced success with a random event fallaciously believes they have a greater chance of further success in additional attempts. Think newer players with Fog. Please in no way take that to mean I think you are "newer," I simply caution you as a reminder. I just worry that you maxed out the number of possible Grenzo, Dungeon Warden lines in light of a False positive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_positive_paradox). Again I could be wrong.

I also implore you to max out your Goblin Matron. The value of being able to find what you want is so much more valuable than just playing more threats. It gives the deck more versatility, which leads to being able to get what you need more often, be it the kill or the kill spell. Brainstorm and Ponder are such powerful cards for the literal exact same reasons. Card selection leads to better lines of play.

[ScatmanX]

@Avatara: Wow, that build looks fun. Way to think outside the box. But I'm with Olaf. Keep the 4th Matron, and Knoll looks bad in too many situations...

So far I'm thorn between some builds. Didn't have the opportunity to playtest yet, so everything is theoretical. But if anyone likes any, feel free to do it =D

1st: Rbw Thalia build
3 Badlands
3 Plateau
6 Fetchland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
2 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Tarfire
1 Warrens Weirdings

3 Thalia
2 Grenzo
3 Goblin Piledriver

4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

SB
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Cannonist
2 Spirit of the Labirynth
2 Relic of Progenitus

2 Wear/Tear
1 Boartusk Liege
2 Tuktuk Scrapper

2nd: Grenzo Gator
4 Badlands
2 Aunties Hovel
3 Fetchland
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

4 Warren Instigator
3 Grenzo
1 Goblin Piledriver

4 Goblin Chieftain
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Weirdings
3 Tarfire

SB
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void

1 Boartusk Liege
2 Earwig Squad

2 Perish
2 Kineis

3rd: Classic Grenzo
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
3 Badlands
5 Fetchlands
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Chrome Mox
2 Mountain

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Mogg Warmarchall
2 Grenzo
1 Goblin Piledriver

2 Gemapalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire
1 Warrens Weirdings

2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Shooter/Scrapper

SB:
4 CotV
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Boartusk Liege
1 Earwig Squad
1 Shoter/Scrapper

2 Perish
2 Kineis

Have no idea which one will be better, but will probably try the Thalia then Instigator lists. Any comments on any list is appreciated.

[Alex Holland]

So i never played goblins.. But with that grenzo dude spoiled i want to give it a try. I checked some list, build this and i will test it from now on!

4 Thoughtseize
4 grenzo dungeon warden :cool:
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 AEther Vial
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
5 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Goblin Ringleader

SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

[Olaf Forkbeard]

1st: Rbw Thalia build

2nd: Grenzo Gator

3rd: Classic Grenzo

It is really interesting that we all came up with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben builds. It probably has to do with needing to run more Badlands means we have to cut Rishadan Port meaning we can just run more mana correction in general. If there is room ya' know. I wouldn't be opposed to replacing my Thalia, Guardian of Thraben slots with Tarfire and just running 2 Rishadan Port over the Plateau. That also seems like a fine route.

I couldn't help but notice you LOVE Chrome Mox. Enough that you run Pyrokinesis in your sideboard with it. Not going to lie I probably wouldn't play Chrome Mox without Warren Instigator mainboard personally. Speaking of which, I'd only run 2 Grenzo, DUngeon Warden in "Grenzo Gator" and swap it for the Goblin Piledriver. Those builds tend to be much more aggressive, and therefor appreciate the Goblin Piledriver much more.


3 AEther Vial

I'd cut a land before cutting the 4th Aether Vial. Before that I'd cut a Grenzo, Dungeon Warden as he is a legendary. The deck is called Vial Goblins for a reason. Otherwise go for it. I can't say I like 4 Thoughtseize mainboard but to each his own.

[ScatmanX]

I couldn't help but notice you LOVE Chrome Mox. Enough that you run Pyrokinesis in your sideboard with it. Not going to lie I probably wouldn't play Chrome Mox without Warren Instigator mainboard personally. Speaking of which, I'd only run 2 Grenzo, DUngeon Warden in "Grenzo Gator" and swap it for the Goblin Piledriver. builds tend to be much more aggressive, and therefor appreciate the Goblin Piledriver much more.


I sure do =] and have played mox with success even in traditional build (just as in my report for last year brazilian natz).
I think 3 grenzo will end up being too much too. But for playtesting purposes running more of them is better, becausr you see him more often.

The Thalia commentary males sense. Will take it in consideration. But really want to test her in this shell to start. And the sb looks so cool...

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[v1ND]

I'm not certain about the numbers of cards like Spinerock Knoll.. I feel as if 3 would be a better number. 4 Matron felt a bit much in combination with 4 Ringleaders and 4 Grenzo; so I dropped them to 3. I feel as if Spinerock Knoll is needed in order to maximize the power of Grenzo; that's why I also run 4 Siege-Gang Commanders. Port isn't an option in this version of the decklist.. Thalia however keeps some of the mana "denial". Thalia will hit the battle field more often with Grenzo than with a classic build.

Don't forget that Matron is another shuffle effect. I think I would prefer to max that over the 4 SGC. Especially since Grenzo and SGC will be fighting for your already limited mana.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Don't forget that Matron is another shuffle effect.

I didn't even think about that, good point.

Edit:

Hell yes, Jim Davis is running goblins again. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67738) 14th place.

He cut Goblin Sharpshooter for a Mogg War Marshal. At least, comparing it to the list he proposed a few months ago. Also he swapped his 2 Confusion in the Ranks for Ashen Rider.

He plays against RUG Delver here. (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/531836534)Starts at 20:44:00 or apparently replays at 24:19:20.

[liamb]

I didn't even think about that, good point.

Edit:

Hell yes, Jim Davis is running goblins again. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67738) 14th place.

He cut Goblin Sharpshooter for a Mogg War Marshal. At least, comparing it to the list he proposed a few months ago. Also he swapped his 2 Confusion in the Ranks for Ashen Rider.

He plays against RUG Delver here. (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/531836534)Starts at 20:44:00 or apparently replays at 24:19:20.

Good to know he is back on track. :smile:

Anyway - I have played very similar list to Jim's. I went 2-2, loosing to my friend runing bant'esque list (0-2) after my terrible mistake on g1. I lost 1-2 against RUG delver (game 3 muligan to 5). I won 2-0 against GB goyf, liliana and 3 plagues in sb and I won 2-1 against ANT (really lucky there). My 4th round can be found @ 2:33 :00 http://www.twitch.tv/plansza/c/4323256

I feel really comfortable with this list and I only need to play tighter and pay more attention to the game state.

[GoboLord]

Good to know he is back on track. :smile:

Anyway - I have played very similar list to Jim's. I went 2-2, loosing to my friend runing bant'esque list (0-2) after my terrible mistake on g1. I lost 1-2 against RUG delver (game 3 muligan to 5). I won 2-0 against GB goyf, liliana and 3 plagues in sb and I won 2-1 against ANT (really lucky there). My 4th round can be found @ 2:33 :00 http://www.twitch.tv/plansza/c/4323256

I feel really comfortable with this list and I only need to play tighter and pay more attention to the game state.

About paying attention to the game state:

Your opponent actually couldnt cast AdNauseam in Game 1. When he played Cabal Ritual, he had only 6 cards in graveyard (Ritual was the 7th), which meant he had BBB in pool after Cabal Ritual.

Had he cracked Lotus Petal it would be legit though.

[liamb]

About paying attention to the game state:

Your opponent actually couldnt cast AdNauseam in Game 1. When he played Cabal Ritual, he had only 6 cards in graveyard (Ritual was the 7th), which meant he had BBB in pool after Cabal Ritual.

Had he cracked Lotus Petal it would be legit though.

Yeah you are right. I thought one should count Cabal Ritual as one card in graveyard upon it resolve.

[max_goblin]

I am feeling like I am a fool...
Can anyone help me understand why is Grenzo that strong, that with only 2 days of spoiler (no champ or extensive tests) there is already a subtype goblin deck : Grenzo goblins?

Ok, he can be insane with a lot of mana, but I really dont see where I should put him up to. Definitely I will not swap my ringleader for Grenzo (I would need a lot more mana to do that, gaes cradle goblins so?). Ok he can go into MWM spot (as I am seing you guys doing), but even on that spot, that we know was needing something knew, I ask myself: Is he really good?

He comes into play as a 2/2, and, if you are luck and have a lot of mana you may put something useful into play (or you can put yourself into a very hateful position, reveling another Grenzo, spending 4 mana to a creature that kills itself..). Grenzo seens like that card that is insane in paper, but in a real game, you will get mad really often... Well, we could try to run like 5~6 fetchs and keep the deck thin, so you can activate him and often bring some goblin to the table, but yet, I would love to see some seriosly testing about this guy.

Anyone can help me?

[jrw1985]

Seems too cute. Anyone brewed any decks yet?

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I am feeling like I am a fool...
Can anyone help me understand why is Grenzo that strong, that with only 2 days of spoiler (no champ or extensive tests) there is already a subtype goblin deck : Grenzo goblins?
Anyone can help me?

To be clear I don't actually think he will make the cut in the long run, but he definitely has more potential than some other options shown in the past. The Grenzo Sub-Archetype you noticed was a theory, not a practice. No one actually knows how good he is but it seems, unless I misread people, that the general consensus is that his lack of synergy with Goblin Ringleader is too strong to run him, and his mana intensive abilities leave him more suited to either a different meta or just a different format. I believe it "might" be possible that running more shuffle effects could mitigate this downside and I am testing it.


Seems too cute. Anyone brewed any decks yet?

A couple have already been proposed, just head back a page and then skim.

An update on the testing. As I guessed not running Tarfire and maxing out on Gempalm Incinerator is too slow in this meta. I will be cutting Thalia, Guardian of Thraben from the main-board and slam some Tarfire in her slot.

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
2 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire
4 AEther Vial
3 Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Confusion in the Ranks
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

[OlegtheSuper]

http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/reclamationsage.html

Looks good with vial, it can hepls us to keeping land control plan. In resp to discard can just enter from vial and just attack)

[liamb]

http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/reclamationsage.html

Looks good with vial, it can hepls us to keeping land control plan. In resp to discard can just enter from vial and just attack)

Yeah it can work. Vial and cavern makes this card almost like Krosan Grip on the stick. Althought it is not that good again sensei's divining top.

[OlegtheSuper]

Yeah it can work. Vial and cavern makes this card almost like Krosan Grip on the stick. Althought it is not that good again sensei's divining top.

And with batterskull and jitte

[max_goblin]

About Grenzo,

1. I believe his best spot is in MWM, as a 5th Ringleader..
2. I dont think that running more than 3 copies is something wise, since it can destroy itself.
3. When running him, you should change your base, swamping tarfire for gempalm, since gempalm enters the battlefield, and tarfire will only make goyfs bigger.
4. The mana base should change (not only adding black..) 23 lands would be the least needed, I believe 24 would be nice (4 ports, 4 wastelands, 4 caverns, 4 badlands 6 fetchs and 2 mountains). So you have access to abuse his ability.
5. Running a sideboard with more creatures than spells (Thalia over Thorn of Amethyst, Revoker over needle, Sharpshooter/lightning crafter over pyrokinesis), would be interesting, since you can send they back to the bottom of your library and them bring they back with Grenzo.
6. I searched for other strategies using the bottom of our library, didnt find anything useful, or that could see legacy play.

@Olaf Forkbeard: Thankyou!

Cya

[Yio]

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I'm wondering: is the current legacy metagame too fast for Vial?
I know that Vial helps a lot in the endgame and that it's counter-proof, but it's card disadvantage (which the winstig builds have to suffer from a lot in comparison with classic builds (Gempalm to Tarfire, Moxes)), it's not good in combination with Ringleader's ability, and most importantly, topdecking it in mid- or endgame is the worst.

Have Vialless (winstig)builds been tested? What is your opinion on this?

[Avatara]

4. The mana base should change (not only adding black..) 23 lands would be the least needed, I believe 24 would be nice (4 ports, 4 wastelands, 4 caverns, 4 badlands 6 fetchs and 2 mountains). So you have access to abuse his ability.
Could you explain that further? I don't see your point.. I've never had any problem casting him with 22 lands from which 1 badlands, 6 fetch and 4 cavern (nor did I have any problems using him). Why would you even run 4 badlands just for 1 Grenzo (as you suggested)?

[dte]

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I'm wondering: is the current legacy metagame too fast for Vial?
I know that Vial helps a lot in the endgame and that it's counter-proof, but it's card disadvantage (which the winstig builds have to suffer from a lot in comparison with classic builds (Gempalm to Tarfire, Moxes)), it's not good in combination with Ringleader's ability, and most importantly, topdecking it in mid- or endgame is the worst.

Have Vialless (winstig)builds been tested? What is your opinion on this?

Vial is the best card with ringleader ability: uncounterable CA + mana cheater. I will even say that matron + ringleader are THE reasons why we have to play vial

[GoboLord]

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I'm wondering: is the current legacy metagame too fast for Vial?

You get a straight NO here.
If the metagame is too fast for Vial then it is too fast for Goblins. One of the major players of the format (D&T) is build around Aether Vial. I don't get how Vial is bad in combination with RIngleader. Ringleader is actually way too expesive to cast and Vial is oftentimes the only way to put im into play.

Some more thoughts on Aether Vial:

my thoughts (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=795110&viewfull=1#post795110)
ScatmanX's response (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=795135&viewfull=1#post795135)
max_goblin's response (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=795177&viewfull=1#post795177)

[Yio]

What I meant with the synergy with Ringleader, is that it has less targets to hit when it ETB.
But thank you for the links, I understand your points now except for one thing: why would you run 4 over 3? I understand it's really nice to land on T1, but doesn't it make the chance of topdecking one later too big? (Or is it worth it?)

[jimmythegreek]

The problem with goblins isnt their non-goblin one drop, its the lack of one's and two's. This deck has an obscene amount of three and four drops; how many times do you open with nothing to play till turn three (obvious mulligan). This deck mulligans to death forcing me to keep mediocre hands of piley and warchief. The inclusion of moxes seems to be a feeble atempt at speeding up an otherwise slower legacy deck. Legacy has gotten faster and its more about one and two drops rather than threes and fours.

[max_goblin]

Could you explain that further? I don't see your point.. I've never had any problem casting him with 22 lands from which 1 badlands, 6 fetch and 4 cavern (nor did I have any problems using him). Why would you even run 4 badlands just for 1 Grenzo (as you suggested)?

You would probably play 2~3 Grenzo, and if you want to play him early, 4badlands would be nice, but I imagine 4 badlands more for SB porpuse.
And 24 Lands is because his abitiliy gets better as more lands you have. But using wastelands is not odd to see myself with only 3~4 lands, what is good, but 5~6 would be nice in the late game for him. If you have 4 ports you can abuse then in the early game and later use then for grenzo.
But 23 mana is the least when you manage to use so much mana.

What I imagine is you vialing him at T3 ou T4 and using his ability before EOT, so you start with 1~2 goblins and him, activate 2 more and you can try an alpha strike out of nowhere.. what would be his sweetiest trick =]

[Avatara]

I've tested a few hours against the #1 U/W/R Delver from the most resent StarCityGames. I started with my Grenzo list and slowly transformed it into Jim Davis list. The results remained unchanged 30-40% vs 60-70% all of the time.. in favor of the Delver deck. It's a hell to fight through their early game swords, bolts, cheap counters and wastelands. Even if I managed to fight off their first wave of delvers and stoneforges; most of the time I still get grinded out by an equipment wielding true-name nemesis. Most of my victories come from early game wastelands and artifact removal.. they have so many answers and a really nasty combination of creatures to deal with.

I also found tarfire to be really mediocre in this match-up.. they seem really nice on paper but often, when you're relying on them, they get countered by stuff like spell pierce.

Any advice on this match-up?

/edit: seems like a full set of Wasteland + Ports are pretty good against them.. wonder if Ghost Quarter in the board would be good aginst these mana greedy decks?

/edit2: @ max_goblin - I changed my list to support 24 lands (4 ports) and played 9 games; I won 7 of them mainly due to keeping from off white mana and/or three mana long enough for piledriver, siege-gang commanders gempalms to do their job. I ran the following list:

4 Goblin Lackey
3 Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Grenzo, Dungeon Warder
2 Tuktuk Scrapper

4 Aether Vial

2 Mountain
1 Plateau
3 Badlands
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

Most valuable plays were: Siege-Gang Commander, Vial, Gempalm Incinerator and Tuktuk Scrapper

I did win 2 games because of Grenzo: once coz he flipped scrapper and the other time because he was racing and keeping true-name back. I don't really feel as if MWM or Instigator would have been better in any of these games. I'm going to play around with 1-2 Grenzo and other cards in the remaining slots.

After numerous matches I'm starting to feel pretty confident in the match-up. Having played U/W/R delver a few times myself has also helped a lot.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I've tested a few hours against the #1 U/W/R Delver from the most resent StarCityGames. I started with my Grenzo list and slowly transformed it into Jim Davis list. The results remained unchanged 30-40% vs 60-70% all of the time.. in favor of the Delver deck. It's a hell to fight through their early game swords, bolts, cheap counters and wastelands. Even if I managed to fight off their first wave of delvers and stoneforges; most of the time I still get grinded out by an equipment wielding true-name nemesis. Most of my victories come from early game wastelands and artifact removal.. they have so many answers and a really nasty combination of creatures to deal with.

I also found tarfire to be really mediocre in this match-up.. they seem really nice on paper but often, when you're relying on them, they get countered by stuff like spell pierce.

Any advice on this match-up?

/edit: seems like a full set of Wasteland + Ports are pretty good against them.. wonder if Ghost Quarter in the board would be good against these mana greedy decks?

That deck really does have a host of problems for us. Main-board artifact hate is great here for what should be an obvious reason. My personal memories of this match-up were resolved by dealing with the Stoneforge Mystic and / or relevant equipment and then riding that momentum to victory.

Chalice of the Void is a sweet card if you weren't aware. Just jam it at 1 out of the board.

I've recently discovered that using Rishadan Port on their fetches really messes up their card selection abilities. If they do not crack the fetch they risk you being able to Wasteland it. If they do crack it right away that's what you were looking for. It turns off powerful Brainstorm interactions, being able to keep 1 or 2 of 3 cards off of Ponder and even as a minor effect get's rid of the option to reveal to Delver of Secrets and then choose to shuffle the card away. But as always, this is a fair match, only use Rishadan Port when you can't do anything else relevant. Give it a shot and let us know how it fairs.

If you are losing very often it may be that the players you are playing against are much better than you, which is nothing to be ashamed of. If you think this is the case start looking for "tells" you tend to make, exactly like poker and try to hide them. Playing against a readable opponent is like looking at their hand all game. Even if your opponents aren't doing it on purpose they can subconsciously read your body language, and you do it too. (Hope this part wasn't too much of a tangent.)

I don't really have much more to offer unfortunately, I need to set up a gauntlet. I need to find people to play said decks in said gauntlet. Worse, I need to find competent players to play said decks in said gauntlet.

[Sandro95]

I've tested a few hours against the #1 U/W/R Delver from the most resent StarCityGames.

Any advice on this match-up?



Chalice of the Void post board also stops a lot of their cards. Tuktuk Scrapper deals with their equipments and Warren Weirding deals with TNN. Tarfire and/or Pyrokinesis can deal with early delvers, and Pyrokinesis may also hit a SFM or Grim Lavamancer. I usually tro to play the control role in this matchup.

[Sandro95]

Hi everyone! I had an interesting discussion with an experienced Miracles player a couple of days ago. I had boarded in Chalice of the Void versus him, and he argued that it was more important for us to keep a high threat count versus him. Even if Chalice of the Void stops his cantrips and STPs, he still has Top, and Venser to bounce Chalice. I understand that Chalice stops him from drawing with top and then replaying it, making us safer from Terminus, and that stopping early removal and cantrips can be useful against them. But I was more interested in the underlying principle of prioritizing having a lot of threats versus them.

I thought about this in relation to deck building, and how we could use this idea to make the matchup more favorable (although we may already be favored). What are your thoughts on this?

[Lejay]

Miracles is already favorable since it's your best match-up and is the only big reason to play the deck right now.

[ScatmanX]

@sandro: The Miracles player mihjt be running Venser is not close to a reason not to play CotV. Stopping them from replaying Top for me is the biggest reason to run it.
Also, we dont remove threats to play cotv. Removal is taken out, so his argument is moot.

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[Olaf Forkbeard]

@sandro: The Miracles player mihjt be running Venser is not close to a reason not to play CotV. Stopping them from replaying Top for me is the biggest reason to run it.
Also, we dont remove threats to play cotv. Removal is taken out, so his argument is moot.

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Agreed entirely. Games against Miracles with a turn 1 Sensei's Divining Top feel like a totally different game than those where they do not have it. Miracles at the mercy of actual top decks is just so good for any deck playing against it.

[slave]

RE: R/B builds for Grenzo;
I've always had the odd bad situation of being mana-screwed in goblins. I don't get it all the time in the mono-colour versions, but in the R/W or R/B versions I've had a LOT.
Do any of you guys think a number of Auntie's Hovel could actually be useful here?

[Olaf Forkbeard]

RE: R/B builds for Grenzo;
I've always had the odd bad situation of being mana-screwed in goblins. I don't get it all the time in the mono-colour versions, but in the R/W or R/B versions I've had a LOT.
Do any of you guys think a number of Auntie's Hovel could actually be useful here?

I've noticed the builds that run more colors run less Rishadan Port, for fear of being mana screwed. Auntie's Hovel is a fine card if you want to run it, I and Gobbolord have run it without shame before.

Some personal notes I have found. You need 17~ red sources to cast (R)(R) on turn 2 consistently off of a 4 of in your deck. I learned this from tuning a Standard Jund Aggro list with Strangleroot Geist that NEEDED to be down on turn 2. With that in mind, you may need a similar number of black sources to guarantee it if you run 4, for each one you drop from 4 you can safely drop about 2 of that colored source (4-17, 3-15, 2-12, 1-10). Unfortunately I don't have any math to back this up, I might later if I feel like doing math, but this is what "feels" good to me. And lastly this is a guide, not a rule.

[ScatmanX]

@olaf: your standard testings give pretty much my Instigator foundings. 16 or more R sources if you want to cast it T1 or 2. But usually with goblins you have other options like Piledriver, mwm, thalia, using port.... so that number is a little more flexible than you say.

Enviado de meu GT-S6313T usando Tapatalk

[GoboLord]

Hey everyone,

I just updated the tournament report section. 3 months have passed since the last update and I am amazed how eager you are typing tournement reports, really cool stuff!

I am planning on giving the whole primer an update, since I figured out that our deck has changed a lot in the last year - and I want the opening post to give an accuarte picture of the deck. I'm now right in the middle of making some sketches how it could look like and thinking about which parts of the old primer can stay, and which parts have to go. Is there something you guys want me to write about? Or some suggestions for the layout? Like more pictures, bigger lettertype and stuff ike that? At the end of the day I'm writing this for you, so I would be glad to weave your ideas into this thing whenever possible

[BoiledDenim]

Hello fellow goblins players.
The recent discussion seems to be about the impact of Grenzo on "the deck". Imho it seems to be a good side board for miracles, but otherwise seems to be too durdly. Goblins seems to work best when you are aiming them at your opponents face. Taking time to play a 2/2 and then possibly or maybe even guaranteed tutor up a goblin from the bottom of your deck seems too slow for the current meta. That being said, post Terminus its the best card you could possibly play. Its a ringleader that finds however many goblins you had. As SB tech its a must have if you expect to play against miracles. They typically side out some amount of counters versus our green men as a concession to Caverns, Aether Vial, and Gempalm (the latter we probably side out against them anyways). So, I think Grenzo is too durdly for MD status, but as a SB option its pretty dang good.
Also, goblins is good now! I have been playing goblins for a few months now and I have been winning at my LGS. My LGS is pretty competitive with a lot of tier 1 decks in attentance. The only decks I seem to lose against are fringe decks. Nic fit is annoying (only due to random guy playing Bonfire and being an expert topdecker) and the occasional pox pairings. All the tier 1 decks feel like good matchups to me. Gempalm Incinerator is crazy good against any delver strategy (we can race mongoose, or block it down).
Combo decks are an issue, but mulliganing to COTV is our best option. I win games 2 & 3 against storm with a chalice at 1. I like 1 more than 0. Mana seems useless to me without cards. Denying them their cantrips and dark rituals is just backbreaking. Its hard for them to go off with cabal rituals. Thalia and Cotv out of the SB gives us 8 cards (assuming you are SB 4 of each) to mulligan to. Its not the worst situation. Same with Elves!
With the current meta of what the decks to beat are, Goblins feels pretty competitive. Just SB against graveyard and combo decks and you have as good of a chance as anyone else it seems to me. Alot of people are hating on Goblins but they are still good. I play a classic list with 3 MD Tin Street Hooligans and they seem great. I'm considering running MD Goblin Settler/Kiki Jiki (taking out prospector and sharpshooter). The sharpshooter/prospector have only been relevant in Elves matchups. Keeping a vial at 4 for ringleader seems good for goblin settler or Kiki-jikki as well. I play 4 gemplalms and 2 tarfires which has been good against pretty much any creature matchup. I currently only question how good rishadan port is nowadays. Rishadan Port seems the weakest of your cards/lands in the meta. Its really good if they keep a risky one lander, but otherwise just taps for a colorless. I am almost thinking about a MD Karakas instead of rishadan port as a concession to the Sneak/Show matchup (giving us a fighting chance on game 1).

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I currently only question how good rishadan port is nowadays. Rishadan Port seems the weakest of your cards/lands in the meta. Its really good if they keep a risky one lander, but otherwise just taps for a colorless. I am almost thinking about a MD Karakas instead of rishadan port as a concession to the Sneak/Show matchup (giving us a fighting chance on game 1).

I personally think that if I had to pick the 5 most powerful cards in the entire classic build they would be Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Goblin Ringleader with Goblin Matron trailing very close behind. With that said I think Rishadan Port is very powerful. I can't see cutting one for a Karakas, I'd rather drop to 2 Mountains. The opening plays where Rishadan Port is good is something our opponents make mulligan decisions on, and that is nothing to scoff at. Even when it's effect is "bad" it was an extra option you don't have to use. The literal biggest downside is that it doesn't produce Red, and it's literal biggest upside is the opponent doesn't play magic anymore.

[BoiledDenim]

@Olaf : I agree that Rishadan Port is a fantastic card. I played it back in the day of Trinity Green in T2 (Urzas/Masques) and it was fantastic. I am only questioning how good Rishadan Port is in the current Legacy Meta. There are so many decks designed to work on only 1 or 2 mana that we can leave up 2 land, port them on upkeep, and they still just play a land and its business as usual. Goblins seems very mana hungry to me. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems to me that whenever I have Port plus land up I can also just play a Piledriver or Tin Street Hooligan and set up to get in there on the next turn with a warchief. Or even a T1 lackey into T2 cycle Gempalm killing a delver or threatening to kill whatever is also common for me. I am not disagreeing tht R. Port is awesome. I'm just not sure how much better it is currently than other temp options. Being able to more consistenly play Thalia (or protect Thalia with bounce) in combination with bouncing all the problematic Legends in legacy seems good to me. I am going to test it and see whats what. It's even tech agains V. Clique when you are in topdeck mode and attacking with a goblin matron or whatever. It just seems Show & Tell is our worst matchup. I've had a lot of Rishadan Ports in play, mostly cause Wasteland does so much work, that I wonder if something else might be better.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

@Olaf : I agree that Rishadan Port is a fantastic card. I played it back in the day of Trinity Green in T2 (Urzas/Masques) and it was fantastic. I am only questioning how good Rishadan Port is in the current Legacy Meta. There are so many decks designed to work on only 1 or 2 mana that we can leave up 2 land, port them on upkeep, and they still just play a land and its business as usual. Goblins seems very mana hungry to me. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems to me that whenever I have Port plus land up I can also just play a Piledriver or Tin Street Hooligan and set up to get in there on the next turn with a warchief. Or even a T1 lackey into T2 cycle Gempalm killing a delver or threatening to kill whatever is also common for me. I am not disagreeing tht R. Port is awesome. I'm just not sure how much better it is currently than other temp options. Being able to more consistenly play Thalia (or protect Thalia with bounce) in combination with bouncing all the problematic Legends in legacy seems good to me. I am going to test it and see whats what. It's even tech agains V. Clique when you are in topdeck mode and attacking with a goblin matron or whatever. It just seems Show & Tell is our worst matchup. I've had a lot of Rishadan Ports in play, mostly cause Wasteland does so much work, that I wonder if something else might be better.

Believe it or not my arguments for most powerful cards were based on my personal play testing in the current meta. It is just value options. They don't hurt you when you are behind and push you further when you are ahead. I think we may disagree in play style at this point. I will admit, I am pretty aggressive with my Rishadan Ports.

That spiel aside I feel like the match-up against Show and Tell is fine personally. This is the kind of combo deck we can actually do something about. Our sideboard cards actually work: 2-3 Confusion in the Ranks or Ashen Rider with a Show and Tell forces them to either not have the threat or try to win via Sneak and Show which is that much harder through Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben / Chalice of the Void. You can go ahead and run Karakas, but I wouldn't be cutting more than 1 Rishadan Port for it in your case. Personally I wouldn't cut any, and just run the Karakas' over a Mountain.

[BoiledDenim]

Olaf, In a big tourney I would agree with the Karakas over a mountain. Seems the way to go. My local meta, however, favors playing basic lands. (Nic Fit, and Wastelands abound). So maybe I am basing too much on my local meta. You could almost certainly be right.

[BoiledDenim]

I have a stupid question. If I have a Warchief out, can I still use the Tin Street Hooligan to pop an artifact or is it just a 2/1 for R at that point?

[Chatto]

I have a stupid question. If I have a Warchief out, can I still use the Tin Street Hooligan to pop an artifact or is it just a 2/1 for R at that point?

Alas, no you can't destroy an artifact: Warchief reduces the castingcost, so you don't get to pay the demanded green mana.

[Sandro95]

Hello, everyone! What's up? Anyways, I played in a tournament yesterday and thought I'd post about it here.

R1 Maverick 2-1

The games were pretty grindy. My opponent went first and I played a bunch of Goblins just staring att his Scavenging Ooze. The game ended when I gott double Chieftain + Piledriver into play on the same turn. forcing my opponent to either lose his entire board except for two lands, a SofaI and a Noble Hiearch, or do the same but with a Scavenging Ooze also left, but at one life. My opponent scooped since either way I would just run him over next turn.

R2 BWg Deadguyish 2-1
G1 He abrupt decays my Vial, but I port him and double wasteland, screwing up his mana. I then draw a second Aether Vial and play it, and from there on I'm pretty favored. I didn't see too much game one except for what his colors were, so I boarded in 2 Pyrokinesis, 2 Relic of Progenitus and a Tuktuk Scrapper. I figured he was almost certainly playing SFM, and if he had goyf I wanted an answer to it, and Relic at least cantrips. G2 it became apparent that he didn't have goyf in his deck so I took out the relics and added an Enginneered Plague for Mom and Bob, and I think two Thoughtseizes came in too. He played a Bob and I cast Warren Weirding. He played a second one and I topdecked Lackey, and gempalmed hiis Bob. Then he played a SFM, searching up Jitte. I played an Engineered Plague naming Artificier, and attacked with lackey. He chumped. After a while I ran him over with Goblins.

R3 Grixis Painter 2-0
I know that he's on painter. He leads with Underground Sea>Top. I wasteland him. He draws, sighs and flips top, then play a Scalding Tarn. After a while I run him over with goblins. G2 he gets an Ensnaring Bridge into play. I play some goblins. He has Welder(tapped) and Grindstone, with a Painters Servant in his graveyard. I kill his Welder and wasteland his Academy Ruins. He draws a Painter, plays it and activates Grindstone, but I pyrokinesis in response.

R4 Merfolk (With Tidal Courier and Dakra Mystic) 1-1
G1 I am run over.
G2 I don't remember much about, but I won. ;)
G3 Is a grindfest. He leads with Vial. I play Thoughtseize and see TNN, lord, 2 Dismember and lands. I take the TNN. T2 He plays his lord and passes. I draw a second Thoughtseize, cast it after playing a land, and take his freshlyy drawn TNN #2. Then I Tarfire his lord, and the grind begins.

3-0-1 in total, felt pretty good about the deck. Had some really tight games throughout the day. I forgot to tick up a Vial at one point but other than that I think I played pretty good. I'll look forward to playtest Grenzo soon too! Until next time.

[henweigh]

There's been some buzz about what's going to be printed in M15. I'm wondering what we'd like to see printed. I'm not thinking about unreasonable broken cards, but rather what would we like to see for our deck that could, perhaps, one day happen?

[woodjt5]

There's been some buzz about what's going to be printed in M15. I'm wondering what we'd like to see printed. I'm not thinking about unreasonable broken cards, but rather what would we like to see for our deck that could, perhaps, one day happen?

Manic Vandal as a goblin. Preferably with some upside, but even vanilla would be fine.

[henweigh]

Manic Vandal as a goblin. Preferably with some upside, but even vanilla would be fine.
That's a nice idea. When you say some upside, what are you thinking? Do you mean some upside beyond destroying an artifact? If so, what kind of upside?

[jrw1985]

That's a nice idea. When you say some upside, what are you thinking? Do you mean some upside beyond destroying an artifact? If so, what kind of upside?

If you break down the format you have a bunch of "fair" decks running some combinations of Goyf/Delver/DRS/SFM + Jitte/BS, then you have Miracles, ANT, Elves and SnT. Our biggest problem comes from the fact that we cannot grind out the fair decks while also disrupting/racing combo decks. A card with a narrow application, like a Manic Vandal goblin (which is only really meant to beat SFM), just isn't any good against the combo decks or the other "fair" decks not running SFM. So a Manic Vandal goblin, while good, isn't good enough to really see play in legacy because its still shitty against any non-SFM deck. HERE'S WHERE THE UPSIDE COMES IN: You need a goblin that is great in a specific scenario but still good against the field in general. I've written this many times, but I feel it's worth repeating: a Qasali Prodemage goblin would be ideal. I would actually want it to cost 2, have battle cry, and be a shock on a stick.

Ideal Goblin R1
Haste. Battle cry (when Ideal Goblin attacks all attacking creatures get +1/+0).
Sacrifice Ideal Goblin: Destroy target artifact
1/2

AAAAAnd here's why a card like this would be tits...
R1 casting cost would allow you to still play Waste/Port and cast him T2 consistently.
Battle cry + haste allows him to pump a T1 Lackey so it can trade with DRS/SFM/Insectile Aberrition, giving you more game against the "fair" decks.
Battle cry + haste also puts a faster clock on combo decks.
Sacrifice effect beats SFM and is also a real worry against SDT and random artifacts (Painters Servant, et al).
And 1/2 body survives -1/-1 effects.

If they printed this card I could guarantee Goblins becoming Tier 1 again. I'm not holding my breath though.

[GoboLord]

IAAAAAnd here's why a card like this would be tits...
R1 casting cost would allow you to still play Waste/Port and cast him T2 consistently.
Battle cry + haste allows him to pump a T1 Lackey so it can trade with DRS/SFM/Insectile Aberrition, giving you more game against the "fair" decks.
Battle cry + haste also puts a faster clock on combo decks.
[...]
And 1/2 body survives -1/-1 effects.


Sounds like you want to play Chrome Mox + Goblin Chieftain, which provides all the things you mentioned for our deck already (except for the shatter-thing, but thats simply not realistic.)


I would like that people recognize Goblins as a good deckchoice right now. There is no new card needed. Just a playset of Tarfire, a playset of Goblin Chieftain and 3 Chrome Moxen to get things going more quickly. It's not even relevant if you are playing with MWMs, Winstigators or whatever (I would pair Thalia with Tarfire and Chrome Mox though) as long as you stick to those 8 cards that help you push your guys through x/2 bodies aka. the meta-game creatures.

[henweigh]

Sounds like you want to play Chrome Mox + Goblin Chieftain, which provides all the things you mentioned for our deck already (except for the shatter-thing, but thats simply not realistic.)


I would like that people recognize Goblins as a good deckchoice right now. There is no new card needed. Just a playset of Tarfire, a playset of Goblin Chieftain and 3 Chrome Moxen to get things going more quickly. It's not even relevant if you are playing with MWMs, Winstigators or whatever (I would pair Thalia with Tarfire and Chrome Mox though) as long as you stick to those 8 cards that help you push your guys through x/2 bodies aka. the meta-game creatures.

Don't mistake me, I think Goblins is a viable and great deck right now. But, as we think about how we'd want to improve it around the edges, I was just throwing open the opportunity for colloquy around what we might hope for to make the deck more robust, more interesting, more resilient, more resourceful, more adaptive, etc. We've all played a variety of incarnations of the deck and we may have some places we wanted to take it where it has just not yet gone.

[GoboLord]

Hello fellow Chieftains,

today I played a small tournament: 4 rounds, 11 players. And funny enough the most-played deck was Goblins! There were 3 Goblin players, including me, and all of them were rocking a WInstigator list! I'm really glad to see this version being played - but first thing first. The decklist:


MANA (22)
4 Caverns
2 Hovel
4 Fetch
3 Chrome Mox
3 Mountain
3 Wasteland
2 Badlands
1 Taiga

4-OFFs (32)
Tarfire
Vial
Lackey
Winstigator
Piledriver
Chieftain
Matron
Ringleader

OTHERS (6)
2 Warchief
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Weirding
1 Stinger

Sideboard
4 Chalice
4 Earwig Squad
3 Perish
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Dismember

Matchups:
R1: Jund 1-2
R2: UWr Miracles 2-0
R3: MIRROR MATCH 1-2
R4: GW Token Stoneforge-Deadguy something. 0-2

Some words on the mirror match.
My opponent started in the first game, leading with Lackey, which got Tarfired on my turn 1. My opponent played a Vial and a Wasteland which he used to destroy my only land. Thing went pretty slow from that point on. At one point his VIal is at 4 Counters and he has plenty of lands, but nearly no creatures on board. I have Warchief, 3 Piledrivers, a Goblin Lackey and 0 cards in hand when I attack him for 12 damage. 2 of my Piledrivers don't survive the combat step. a few turns later my opponent is at 8 life, has a Chieftain in play, a Vial @ 4 and still very many lands. I have 4 manasources and a Goblin Warchief as well as a 5th land in my hand. He is better at finding RIngleaders and that's that.
G2 he can't handle my Turn-1 Lackey.
G3 I can't handle his Lackey, which ultimately connects into kiki-Jiki on turn 2, and teams up with a Piledriver. The game ends on turn 3 with the following boardposition (the red dice @2 indicates two copies of Goblin Piledriver)
http://i59.tinypic.com/ivwgv7.jpg

Conclusions:
* I tested a G splash for TSH in the slot of one Tuktuk Scrapper. I'm not sold yet, because it did not matter in those 4 rounds. however...
* ...manascrew was an issue in rounds 1 and 4. I'm leaning towards using more fetchlands and basiclands and running as few non-basics as possible. One of the other GOblin players was running a monoR version and confirmed that he never had any issues with being short on mana. This means that I won't running the extra dual-land for TSH in this version, but rather I stick to a more constistant manabase.
* Last time I indicated that I wanted to cut Warren Weirding, 2 games today made me change my mind.
* In a game of mirrormatches, you handle Lackey or you die. Seriously, don't keep hands that can't handle your opponent's T1 Lackey. Don't be the fool that I am.
* the other Winstigator lists both went 3-1 finishing 3rd and 4th. I am confident that this approach to the deck is the way to go right now.

[Suitch]

On the topic of Karakas: I have been running the following mana base for my goblins list:

4 wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
6 Red Fetches (I would recommend using Wooded Foothills, as it is the most ambiguous to play on turn 1, game one if you haven't a turn one play)
2 Badland
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
2 Mountain

And if you aren't running 24 lands in the post-Conspiracy era, you are doing it wrong. Point-blank. This deck is super mana-intensive, Rishadan Port IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO WIN OPENS, and Grenzo may make it a viable option moving forward. I have been using karakas for a while because of its added utility in some matchups, but also because I run 1 Siege-gang Commander AND 1 Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker. 3 Thalia in the board, no warren wierding in the 75. (It is unfortunately lack-luster...)

[woodjt5]

That's a nice idea. When you say some upside, what are you thinking? Do you mean some upside beyond destroying an artifact? If so, what kind of upside?

Playable:

2R

When ~ comes into play, destroy target artifact

2/2

A little upside: Same thing as above, but add haste

Probably too much to ask for:

1RR

Haste

When ~ comes into play, you may destroy target artifact. If you do, ~ gets +x/+0 until end of turn, where X is the CMC of the artifact destroyed.

1/2

I also like the pridemage idea.

[Wucherkater]

Hi everybody,

I was the mirror match GoboLord mentioned in his previous report. First of all, thanks a lot for supervising this threat. I think it adds much value to the Goblin tribe. Being my first legacy tournament, I decided to play a list very similar to the one of Josiah Skallerup:

MANA (22)
4 Caverns
4 Hovel
2 sulfurous springs (my fetch lands did not arrive in time)
3 Chrome Mox
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Badlands


4-OFFs (28)
Vial
Lackey
Winstigator
Piledriver
Chieftain
Matron
Ringleader

OTHERS (10)
3 Tarfire
2 Weirding
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Warchief
1 Stinger
1 kiki-jiki

Sideboard
4 Chalice
2 Earwig Squad
2 sharpshooter
4 Cabal Therapy
1 stinger

Matchups:
R1: BUG Delver 1-2
game 1: He began. I played cavern and vial. Then he wasted my cavern, leaving me behind with a wasteland as my only land in my hand and a vial on board. I didn't catch a land the next two turns and this was it. Maybe I should have taken a mulligan.
game 2: I drew pretty well with my ringleaders. He played a goyf and a TNN, but my board advantage was high enough to win.
game 3: He drew three goyfs, which where all in play in turn 4 or 5. Too much to handle. A perish would have been priceless ...

R2: Death and Taxes 2-1

R3: MIRROR MATCH 2-1
I think you mentioned all important things, Gobo. If you are second to play and do not have any answer a turn 1 lackey, you lose. Seeing your decklist now, I think you were favorable in this matchup, having a full set of tarfires and 2 dismember to answer lackey.

I do not like warchief too much in our decklist (winstigator+lackey+vial provides enough speed). Of course, being able to play 2-3 piledrivers at once was impressive at first sight. But if you have any blockers, like I did, it is not much of a problem, since you can trade the piledrivers 1on1 in most cases.


R4: Shardless BUG 2-1

Wasteland were priceless in the matchup. In the last match I played Lackey on turn one and wasted two of his lands on turn 2 and 3 for the win.

A few comments on your deck list Gobo:

I really like your sideboard. I strongly consider to add dismember or perish, too. In my match ups my current sideboard was not very helpful (I did not face combo or SnT). A perish would have won the game for me against BUG delver. I feel like I need an answer to goyf in addition to the two warrens.

I also like your idea of TSH, instead of tuktuk. Tuktuk just is too expensive in a lot of scenarios. However, I am not sure if playing only 3 Wastelands is worth it. Furthermore, if your opponents plays any land disruption (like wastes and ports) he might deny your green many source in order to protect his artifacts. Did you have any experience with the issue of having green mana when you need it so far?

A word on Grenzo:
Like we discussed yesterday, 2 (3 might be too much) Grenzos might suit well in this deck. In my opinion, the conflict with ringleader is not as high as on might think on first sight. In the cases, where we are able to play a ringleader we typically are able to generate board advantage. In these cases one might not even need the ability of Grenzo. We particularly need him, when we are not able to draw a ringleader and are playing topdeck.
Since Grenzo is so mana hungry, I consider adding 2-3 ancient tombs to my decklist. This could give us even more speed in cases where we cannot connect with lackey or winstigator (mox and tomb enable you to play ringleader in turn two). What do you think of this option?

[Avatara]

Has anyone ever tried/considered Spirit of the Labyrinth instead of Thalia?

[GoboLord]

Has anyone ever tried/considered Spirit of the Labyrinth instead of Thalia?

See jrw1985's last report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Goblins&p=811949&viewfull=1#post811949)

[Suitch]

Grenzo is testing well, but only with plenty of fetches to balance its interaction with ringleader.

[v1ND]

@Manic Goblin: I'd settle for the upside of "may destroy".

[henweigh]

@Manic Goblin: I'd settle for the upside of "may destroy".

That's actually a pretty good upside in our deck.

[Zombie]

That's actually a pretty good upside in our deck.

New Naturalize elf is 2C 2/1 may destroy, so if you get a red shatter goblin it probably will read may destroy.

[1337erhosen]

Hello,

I've been playing Goblins on and off for a while, and after messing with various other Vial/Tribal decks, I've again landed on it as a choice.

I'm playing this list at the Legacy Open in Columbus on Sunday:

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Gempalm Incinerator

3 Tarfire
4 Aether Vial

4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Plateau
8 Fetches
3 Mountain
1 Karakas

SB:
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pyrokenisis
3 Rest in Peace
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Wear/Tear


I have some questions about the deck in general that I'd like answered by senior members of the thread, aka the veterans of the archetype.

1. Why have many lists abandoned the White splash as of late? In my 2 weeks of testing the weakest slot in the deck has been the 2-drop, and Thalia fills that role very nicely, proving to be a much higher-impact card than it's goblin mana-equivalents. Keeping a hand with no Vial or Lackey but Thalia on 2 has been much stronger than Piledriver on 2. I've also found the White-based sideboard to be the strongest out of all the splashes.

2. Why has there not been more focus on Krenko? My list is almost entirely based around resolving a Krenko and winning a few turns after. In every fair matchup I've tested, unanswered Krenko takes over the game in 1-3 turns, proving more effective than any other "silver bullet" tutor targets. Every match that I've searched up something else, two turns later I've wished I would have gotten Krenko. Several scenarios have come up where Krenko wins through Batterskull and SoFI, and I wondered why we even play Scrapper.

3. The mana base continues to feel very vulnerable against Wasteland/Delver decks, and I see Rishadan Port as a liability most of the time. When I have it to follow up a turn 1 Vial it feels great, but having it Wasted/having it not produce red mana has been relevant in more of my games than the mana-denial ability. Have any of you guys been mana screwed/felt the same way about Port?

4. Why is there so much excitement about Grenzo? His activated ability seems extremely situational, and casting him to just be a 4/4 for 4 mana seems mediocre at best. Grenzo has anti-synergy with ringleader and overall feels like a poor direction for the deck to take.

5. Finally, my sideboard is the least tested part of my deck. Thoughts on the numbers/choices?

[Sandro95]

Hello,

I've been playing Goblins on and off for a while, and after messing with various other Vial/Tribal decks, I've again landed on it as a choice.

I'm playing this list at the Legacy Open in Columbus on Sunday:

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Gempalm Incinerator

3 Tarfire
4 Aether Vial

4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Plateau
8 Fetches
3 Mountain
1 Karakas

SB:
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pyrokenisis
3 Rest in Peace
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Wear/Tear


I have some questions about the deck in general that I'd like answered by senior members of the thread, aka the veterans of the archetype.

1. Why have many lists abandoned the White splash as of late? In my 2 weeks of testing the weakest slot in the deck has been the 2-drop, and Thalia fills that role very nicely, proving to be a much higher-impact card than it's goblin mana-equivalents. Keeping a hand with no Vial or Lackey but Thalia on 2 has been much stronger than Piledriver on 2. I've also found the White-based sideboard to be the strongest out of all the splashes.

2. Why has there not been more focus on Krenko? My list is almost entirely based around resolving a Krenko and winning a few turns after. In every fair matchup I've tested, unanswered Krenko takes over the game in 1-3 turns, proving more effective than any other "silver bullet" tutor targets. Every match that I've searched up something else, two turns later I've wished I would have gotten Krenko. Several scenarios have come up where Krenko wins through Batterskull and SoFI, and I wondered why we even play Scrapper.

3. The mana base continues to feel very vulnerable against Wasteland/Delver decks, and I see Rishadan Port as a liability most of the time. When I have it to follow up a turn 1 Vial it feels great, but having it Wasted/having it not produce red mana has been relevant in more of my games than the mana-denial ability. Have any of you guys been mana screwed/felt the same way about Port?

4. Why is there so much excitement about Grenzo? His activated ability seems extremely situational, and casting him to just be a 4/4 for 4 mana seems mediocre at best. Grenzo has anti-synergy with ringleader and overall feels like a poor direction for the deck to take.

5. Finally, my sideboard is the least tested part of my deck. Thoughts on the numbers/choices?

There is not a lot of combo played at the moment, making Thalia less attractive.
I like Krenko. He wins games when he sticks and is one of our best cards versus BUG decks. However, goblins usually win fair matchups by outgrinding them with ringleaders and matrons, and that plan is more reliable than going all in on Krenko.
I don't think our manabase is that vulnerable. We have Aether Vial and can fetch for basics. It's not perfect, but wasteland deck usually aren't what I'm afraid of. Also, Rishadan Port is secretely a two-drop, maybe the best one in the deck.
I think Grenzo has potential. He is a two-drop, which you said is the weakest slot, that if left unchecked will threaten to take control of the game. He is card advantage on a stick. I'm not too familiar with the white splash but your sideboard seems fairly stock to me, with cards that are very clearly good in the matchups they're good in.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

1) Our 2 drop as you identified is our weakest slot, agreed. I like lists running Thalia, Guardian of Thraben main-board, but it is a meta choice. I also agree that Goblin Piledriver is a weak turn 2 play, nobody is debating that. The original reason people have, and still do run multiple Goblin Piledriver is for the explosive-ness he provides the next 2-3 turns. Several wins in goblins come from behind and he is usually the reason why. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is a "better" creature in general that does the opposite. She does not increase our clock, she slows opposing clocks down. It's a literal difference in play-style choice. If you are more comfortable taking victory by affecting their plays directly she is your woman. I prefer a solid clock in general, as being faster-- read threatening --makes my opponents play exactly how I want them to. See the my answer for your 4th question to further answer this question.

2) When It came down to it I made a chart by hand and wrote down the pro's and cons of the "Finisher Goblins." Krenko, Mob Boss, Siege-Gang Commander and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. I don't have it with me now but If memory serves I kept coming down to the fact that if I am behind a top decked Siege-Gang Commander does more damage than the other two cards AS WELL AS simply being a better clock against combo decks AS WELL AS giving us another route to victory if we can't attack for one reason or another. In the list I had set up the only type of deck Krenko, Mob Boss was literally better against was BUG colored decks while being about even against decks that simply just had Deathrite Shaman in it. Nothing beats incremental advantage quite like exponents. As for the other guy I don't think I'd run Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker unless I have Warren Instigator.

Though I'll give you it's not like he doesn't do work against the field. I just kept seeing scenario's where I was behind. If I am behind I have less goblins than I would like, usually making him spend a full turn just getting to the "threatening" point. That said, he is my favorite Finisher Goblin. He's got style.

3) Scrolling up you'll find my piece on Rishadan Port. I do notice the mana screw from time to time, and I fully believe that it is worth the risk for the power of the card. See old school Merfolk running 12 (U) sources with 8-12 creatures requiring (U)(U).

4) The hype on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden is about the fact that he is the closest to playable 2 drop goblin that might warrant a main-board slot that's been printed since Warren Instigator. People are just testing and hoping-- Me included. The fact that he can be bigger should be seen as upside, not the original point of this card. Could you define what you mean by "...and overall feels like a poor direction for the deck to take. " Are you referencing the fact that the deck get's grindier?

5) I'm assuming 3 Oblivion Rings are mainly for Show and Tell with upside in other matches? I don't think it's close that I'd drop 1 for a Stingscourger. Just straight up gives you more live draws against the fatties.



Could it be that you feel the mana base is so vulnerable because you have a slightly higher curve than normal? Or is that just my personal taste?

<List>: <Number of Permanents at CMC X> (<Number of Non-Permanents at CMC X>)

I counted Gempalm Incinerator and Stingscourger as 2 drop non-permanents

Your List: 8 (3), 6 (3), 10, 7
Jim Davis's: 9 (3), 9 (3), 8, 4, 1

[GoboLord]

I have some questions about the deck in general that I'd like answered by senior members of the thread, aka the veterans of the archetype.

1. Why have many lists abandoned the White splash as of late? In my 2 weeks of testing the weakest slot in the deck has been the 2-drop, and Thalia fills that role very nicely, proving to be a much higher-impact card than it's goblin mana-equivalents. Keeping a hand with no Vial or Lackey but Thalia on 2 has been much stronger than Piledriver on 2. I've also found the White-based sideboard to be the strongest out of all the splashes.
Well first of all, you should not keep hands without anything to do on turn 1 (i.e. without either Vial or Lackey in your case). Its true though that Thalia is better than Piledriver when you put them on an empty board (like you would do on turn 2, without a turn-1 play.
It's also true that White offers many SB cards that are very effective, however you should know your meta well and see which cards you need (i.e. which splashcolor you want to play) and not vice versa. In my oppinion B is the strong supportive color for our deck, given the decks we want to beat right now.



2. Why has there not been more focus on Krenko? My list is almost entirely based around resolving a Krenko and winning a few turns after. In every fair matchup I've tested, unanswered Krenko takes over the game in 1-3 turns, proving more effective than any other "silver bullet" tutor targets. Every match that I've searched up something else, two turns later I've wished I would have gotten Krenko. Several scenarios have come up where Krenko wins through Batterskull and SoFI, and I wondered why we even play Scrapper.
I cut Krenko (and any other fattie) from the list because it felt like they were not able to turn around games that I couldn't win otherwise (mostly that meant tutoring Ringleader or Piledriver, but ostly RIngleader really). Also, when Krenko won games for me it often looked like he was ending the game one turn earlier than other cards would have done - i.e. I didn't really need or want him for winning games.
Also, we play Tuktuk Scrapper because he destroys/wins against equipments reliably, without having to wait for whole turn and without being removed before he can get his work done.
As a sidenote I have to mention that I havn't played a list with Thalia and without WInstigator for over a year now, so that's the lense through which I am seeing Krenko.



3. The mana base continues to feel very vulnerable against Wasteland/Delver decks, and I see Rishadan Port as a liability most of the time. When I have it to follow up a turn 1 Vial it feels great, but having it Wasted/having it not produce red mana has been relevant in more of my games than the mana-denial ability. Have any of you guys been mana screwed/felt the same way about Port?
Absolutely. I am on 0 Ports and only 3 Wasteland right now. No regrets.




5. Finally, my sideboard is the least tested part of my deck. Thoughts on the numbers/choices?
Well, you should first work out the top 5-8 decks you are expecting to face and post them here. That'S what's your SB is all about. Without that information you can't build your SB correctly.
One thing I can already tell you is that Oblivion Ring is way worse than Ashen Raiders/COnfusion in the Ranks agains Show&Tell decks and, worse than basically anything else if you want to actually cast it (on creatures or enchantments - it doesn't matter).

[Zombiesquisher]

Im currently trying to decide between a more traditional goblins list and something with WInstingator for a local tournament. Does anyone have any suggestions as to which version is better in certain meta environments. Im very familiar with classic builds but Ive decided to give WInstigator a chance to prove himself. Also trying to decide if i want to pick up FBB Badlands or a FBB Tiaga for my deck... wondering if the black splash is truely the way to go now. Any advice would be great.

[GoboLord]

Im currently trying to decide between a more traditional goblins list and something with WInstingator for a local tournament. Does anyone have any suggestions as to which version is better in certain meta environments. Im very familiar with classic builds but Ive decided to give WInstigator a chance to prove himself. Also trying to decide if i want to pick up FBB Badlands or a FBB Tiaga for my deck... wondering if the black splash is truely the way to go now. Any advice would be great.

You should definitely feel the power of WInstigator lists. ABout the splashcolor: I think green is mostly (if not only) used for Tin Street Hooligan. Tuktuk Scrapper is a very good substitute for TSH (in fact I would be able to tell which one is better). Also B offer strong cards like Perish, Cabal Therapy and Warren Weiridng.
Ultimately it depends on the metagame. Which decks do you expect to face? Either way, I'd build a Winstigator deck and the see if you need a splashcolor. If you need one it should probably be Black. Also on the long term, I would invest in Badlands and Plateaus (at least for this deck) because those two splashcolors offer the attractive and quite unique SB cards.

[Zombiesquisher]

I have my two FBB German Plateau's I was just debating on the Badlands, but I'm thinking I'll just go for it. I'm trying to pimp the deck as best as possible and just praying for a Rishadan Port reprint so I don't have to drop $800+ each on them. The tournament I'm going to is full of casuals. People playing Stoneblade with shocklands instead of duals and no Wastelands to be found... and some stuff like burn and cheap dredge or infect lists.

[GoboLord]

I have my two FBB German Plateau's I was just debating on the Badlands, but I'm thinking I'll just go for it. I'm trying to pimp the deck as best as possible and just praying for a Rishadan Port reprint so I don't have to drop $800+ each on them. The tournament I'm going to is full of casuals. People playing Stoneblade with shocklands instead of duals and no Wastelands to be found... and some stuff like burn and cheap dredge or infect lists.

Smells like combo. A mono red list should do (in fact I don't think that splashing B will get you anywhere against burn and infect...)
I would run something similar to this:

3 Chrome Mox
4 Caverns
15 Mountains/Wasteland

4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 WInstigator
4 Piledriver
4 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Tarfire

2 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 whatever you feel like

SIDE
4 Chalice
1 Chrome Mox
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spellskite (against Burn and infect. Crazy shit, I know.)
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 something

[Zombiesquisher]

Is Goblin Warchief not typically played with WInstigator?

[Sandro95]

Tournament report! I went 3-1 with the following list

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
3 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Warren Weirding
2 Tarfire
4 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Engineered Plague
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

I cut a Warchief for Grenzo, to try him out, see what he's capable of.

R1 UWR Delver 1-2
G1 He casts FOW on a Tarfire, saving his mystic. This wins him the game as I can't Warren Weirding his TNN away a few turns later.
G2 I play a Chalice for one, and he cast spell pierce (?!!). I draw and play another one which meets a Force of Will. Then I play some goblins. We get to a point where he has TNN and I have six power in play. I cast Warren Weirding, he activates his Mishra's Factory in response, and I pyrokinesis it before WW resolves. G3 He gets a TNN into play with Jitte in hand. Then he plays a Vendilion Clique, which I can't gempalm away, because I have no goblins in play. Otherwise I might have had been able to matron for WW to get rid of his TNN. I have a feeling there was something I could have done differently this game, and maybe I would have won.

0-1

R2 Grixis Painter 2-0
G1 beat down with goblins while trying to disrupt him, I don't remember more details from this game.
G2 he leads with City of Traitors > Sensei's Divining Top > Pithing Needle on Wasteland. At one point he activates grindstone, and in response Welders it to get a Painter's Servant into play. I pyrokinesis his guys and get milled a few cards. From there on I beat down with a piledriver and some other guys. After a while he comboes again, and I have the second Pyrokinesis.

1-1

R3 MUD
My opponent leads with Cavern of Souls, pass. I ask him what creature type he named, and he responds with "Goblin". Turns out he wasn't on goblins though, but MUD, naming Goblin for Welder. I play a Lackey and pass. He plays a t2 chalice for 1, and then doesn't do much while I beat him down. G2 I keep a risky hand with only one land and Vial. He plays t1 chalice for one. I draw, play a land and pass. I won this game largely due to getting to resolve a thoughtseize and two aether vials through his chalice. Funny thing is that when I thoughtseized him he had a Welder in play and showed me three fatties. I chose the Kuldotha Forgemaster as it was just a 3/5, rather than a wurmcoil engine or platinum emporion. He beat me down with forgemaster and double Welder. I gempalm his welders (they're goblins! XD). and tuktuk scrapper his forgemaster. Then I swarm the board and kill him in a few turns.

R4 UB Delver 2-0
My opponent hadn't gotten all his cards yet, so he was playing a brew with lots of counterspells, duresses and Dandân (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106631). I played versus him before the tournament and beat him 5-0. He was a really nice guy, and I look forward to playing with him again, when he has all of his cards.

I didn't get to use Grenzo too much, so I can't say too much about him yet. Otherwise, the deck felt good. I feel this configuration has worked out very smoothly for me. I'm considering an extra tarfire and/or fetchland md, and an extra thoughtseize in the side. I will see where I end up with the list next time. As always, if you have any questions, any suggestions, or just anything to say in general, I'll be glad to hear it! :)

[cooljets]

Is Goblin Warchief not typically played with WInstigator?

I have replaced Warchief with Chieftain in my WInstigator list. He's the better lord in this version since he actually gives you +2 damage with the double striker, you don't need Warcheif's mana cheapening effect as much since you essentially have 8x lackey's, and finally, 4x +1/+1 lords help you fight through -1/-1 effects like Engineered Plague.

[Sockosensei]

I have replaced Warchief with Chieftain in my WInstigator list. He's the better lord in this version since he actually gives you +2 damage with the double striker, you don't need Warcheif's mana cheapening effect as much since you essentially have 8x lackey's, and finally, 4x +1/+1 lords help you fight through -1/-1 effects like Engineered Plague.

More significant than the extra damage is the way it gives the opponent fewer blocks where he/she can trade with Instigator -- DRS in particular, and SFM occasionally. This pump is also significant for Lackey and even Piledriver.

With work sucking away my time recently, the majority of my matches have been on MTGO. I've run pretty much every imaginable Instigator build, with or without Chrome Mox, black splash, white splash, Tin Street green splash, etc. My experience with Mox has been decidedly poor, much as I want to like it. No card I've ever run has made me curse out loud like Chrome Mox in goblins. I just have not shared the positive experiences of ScatmanX or GoboLord with the card, perhaps because I am a less accomplished pilot and poor at predicting my needs three turns later(?).

By far my most successful list has been Rwg Instigator with 2x TSH, 1 Tuktuk, 1 Kiki, and 1 Krenko main, and Thalia, RIP, Wear/Tear, Chalice in the side. No Moxen. It was Josiah, I believe, who convinced me to try Kiki, and it has been incredible. Ringleader/Matron #5 on a bad day. Typically though it sticks around for repeated value as opponents have already used removal on Piledriver, Lackey, Instigator, or Lords; no one wants to waste removal on a resolved Ringleader or Matron, meaning Kiki has targets. Kiki-Piledriver can just end games shortly.

[cooljets]

It was Josiah, I believe, who convinced me to try Kiki, and it has been incredible. Ringleader/Matron #5 on a bad day. Typically though it sticks around for repeated value as opponents have already used removal on Piledriver, Lackey, Instigator, or Lords; no one wants to waste removal on a resolved Ringleader or Matron, meaning Kiki has targets. Kiki-Piledriver can just end games shortly.

Josiah is me. :) Glad to have turned you on to the awesome power of Kiki-Jiki, although I do believe Kiki is more powerful in a deck that can drop a Winstigator on turn 1 via moxen. Yes, moxen are terrible topdecks, I've been pretty good at knowing what to throw under them on turns 1 and 2.

[Sockosensei]

Josiah is me. :) Glad to have turned you on to the awesome power of Kiki-Jiki, although I do believe Kiki is more powerful in a deck that can drop a Winstigator on turn 1 via moxen. Yes, moxen are terrible topdecks, I've been pretty good at knowing what to throw under them on turns 1 and 2.

Ha!
I remembered your real name, just couldn't recall which username it connected to :-)
Sorry about that, and thanks for the Kiki tip.

Perhaps I simply had a long stretch of poor draws with Mox but, man...

[cooljets]

What's the trouble you have with them? Do you have a hard time knowing what to put underneath? Or is the card disadvantage just seem to big of a drawback?

[cooljets]

Oh wow, have you guys seen the updated M15 spoiler? It looks like we will soon have a new goblin to try out.

http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/goblinrabblemaster.html

Goblin Rabblemaster
2R
Creature - Goblin Warrior
Other goblin creatures you control attack each turn if able.
At the beginning of combat on your turn, put a 1/1 red Goblin creature token with haste onto the battlefield.
Whenever Goblin Rabblemaster attacks, it gets +1/+0 until end of turn for each other attacking goblin.
2/2

[Finn]

I dunno. That Goblin looks pretty lackluster to me. The negative is rather significant, and the upside is hardly better than the other lords we have access to. Even as a tutor target just for the cool goblin production, I prefer Matrons and Ringleaders.

[(nameless one)]

Oh wow, have you guys seen the updated M15 spoiler? It looks like we will soon have a new goblin to try out.

http://mythicspoiler.com/m15/cards/goblinrabblemaster.html

Goblin Rabblemaster
2R
Creature - Goblin Warrior
Other goblin creatures you control attack each turn if able.
At the beginning of combat on your turn, put a 1/1 red Goblin creature token with haste onto the battlefield.
Whenever Goblin Rabblemaster attacks, it gets +1/+0 until end of turn for each other attacking goblin.
2/2

I don't know about this guy. Every time I see a goblin match, they're usually in the defensive until they out card advantage their opponent before they go for the alpha strike. Sure, you get the really fast turn 3 uninterrupted kills. Forcing your team to attack when your opponent's creatures can out muscle you doesn't help the deck.

This goblin would really be good if it destroyed a land or an artifact as it enters the battlefield at 3 mana.

[cooljets]

Yeah, it's true. The guy could be very good with Piledriver but as the deck stands he probably wouldn't fit in that well, especially since he'd be competing with Matron and Chieftain/Warchief.

[LeoCop 90]

Just to be exhaustive, let's also mention Ignition Team . Unfortunately he is not powerful enough to even consider playing him just for lackey/instigator shenanigans.... at 7 mana he should do something MUCH more powerful, but he is geared towards multiplayer games.

[OlegtheSuper]

Del.

[slave]

Just to be exhaustive, let's also mention Ignition Team .
Think I'd rather Koth of the Hammer or Domri Rade than the I-team.

[GoboLord]

Update notes


June 17th 2014
Re-structured the opening post. It should now be easier to read. I also wrote a whole new paragraph about the three subarchetypes of Goblins and added a lot of pictures.

Feedback is appreciated.

[Yio]

@Gobolord:

The link to suggested reading about Warchief and Chieftain links to a page without info on them.
You state that Stifle can turn a Piledriver into a Squire; it has pro-blue, however.

Small errors: The link is dead @Lackey part, 'cardadvantage' needs a space @Ringleader part, misspelled 'Show and Tell' @Stingscourger part, misspelled 'throw' @Krenko part, 'your' should be 'you' @Classic build part, a couple of errors @Sideboard part (mostly links and /cards).

I might've missed some things, but this is what I found. The structure looks good, I really like the updated sideboard part and the Krenko-SGC discussion.

[ScatmanX]

You state that Stifle can turn a Piledriver into a Squire; it has pro-blue, however.
Stifle targets the Triggered Abilities, not Piledriver itself. That's why it turns him into a Squire for a turn.

[Yio]

Well hot damn, I stand corrected. A bit weird that protection doesn't cover that, but on the other hand the definition of protection would've been even more complicated. (Maybe a thing to add to the Piledriver page, or am I the only one who has made that mistake?)

[GoboLord]

@Gobolord:

The link to suggested reading about Warchief and Chieftain links to a page without info on them.

Small errors: The link is dead @Lackey part, 'cardadvantage' needs a space @Ringleader part, misspelled 'Show and Tell' @Stingscourger part, misspelled 'throw' @Krenko part, 'your' should be 'you' @Classic build part, a couple of errors @Sideboard part (mostly links and /cards).

I might've missed some things, but this is what I found. The structure looks good, I really like the updated sideboard part and the Krenko-SGC discussion.

Fixed.
Thank you for your conscientious proofreading.

[orcanmail]

In my mono red winstigator list I am finding it essential to maindeck the following:-

3 chrome mox
3 pyrokenesis
4 tarfire
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Tuk Tuk Scrapper

Obviously the above give me acceleration, quick removal, and answers to problematic artifacts.
If you want a full deck list I can provide it.

[HugSeal]

Fixed.
Thank you for your conscientious proofreading.

In the subtype section blood moon is misspelled in section a aswell.

[Zombie]

3. The mana base continues to feel very vulnerable against Wasteland/Delver decks, and I see Rishadan Port as a liability most of the time. When I have it to follow up a turn 1 Vial it feels great, but having it Wasted/having it not produce red mana has been relevant in more of my games than the mana-denial ability. Have any of you guys been mana screwed/felt the same way about Port?

Not a Goblins player, but this feels like a good line of thought. Goblins is pretty similar to Shardless BUG in many ways and that deck only runs two wastelands as an answer to troublesome lands instead of active disruption like D&T and Delver do. Being able to play your stuff and bury the opponent in raw CA is much more important to these decks' gameplan, I think. Surprisingly few Legacy decks actually have raw draw, so just drowning people in cards should work. It's what puts Shardless in DTB, anyway.

[Vandalize]

Not a Goblins player, but this feels like a good line of thought. Goblins is pretty similar to Shardless BUG in many ways and that deck only runs two wastelands as an answer to troublesome lands instead of active disruption like D&T and Delver do. Being able to play your stuff and bury the opponent in raw CA is much more important to these decks' gameplan, I think. Surprisingly few Legacy decks actually have raw draw, so just drowning people in cards should work. It's what puts Shardless in DTB, anyway.

Shardless BUG has Force of Will and Abrupt Decay, which can deal with a lot of stuff. Goblins are prey to combo, and against every fair deck is a fair match (there are no cakewalks like in 2006 meta).

Still, these guys are rocking WInstigator lists, which seem clearly better nowdays (unless you're Jim Davis). I love it.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Fixed.
Thank you for your conscientious proofreading.

Got some more.

In the Goblin Lackey explanation:


Caverns, Lackey, Go – the best T1-play our deck has. His threatening, triggered ability enables fast and aggressive starts, even turn-3-kills (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557/page306). On the other hand we does very often not “connect” because opponents will try everything to throw removal, counter or Stifle at him. Placing creatures in his way is oftentimes a plan-B, because the creature in question could be removed to make sure that Lackey get’s the party started.

Perhaps the below wording is better? Also corrected the typo "we" to "he."


Caverns, Lackey, Go – the best T1-play our deck has. His threatening, triggered ability enables fast and aggressive starts, even turn-3-kills (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5557/page306). On the other hand he does not "connect" very often because opponents will try everything to stop him via removal, counter spells or even Stifle. Placing creatures in his way is oftentimes a plan-B, because the creature in question could be removed to make sure that Lackey get’s the party started.


I tend to disagree with the following:



BUG Delver
Tier 1: Boartusk Liege
Tier 2: Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace, Perish, Nature’s Ruin, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Earwig Squad, Swang Song
Cards you should NOT run instead: Goblin King, Tormod’s Crypt

Am I alone in thinking Rest in Peace, not Relic of Progenitus, is tier 1 against BUG Delver? Literally shutting off 8-10 actual real problems in the deck. Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf and if they are playing it Tombstalker? I would even argue that it makes their Abrupt Decay marginally worse as they have so many live and important targets. Stretches it's applications thin.

Lastly, add Grenzo, Dungeon Warden to the to be tested section.

[Zombiesquisher]

Went to a legacy event 3 towns over last night. Had some great match ups and went 3-1, but had to drop before round 5 due to work the next morning. The list is as follows:

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Goblin Piledriver
3x Mogg War Marshall
3x Tarfire
1x Warren Wierding
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
4x Aether Vial
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
2x Badlands
1x Auntie's Hovel
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Arid Mesa
3x Mountain
4x Cavern of Souls

2x Ashen Rider
2x Perish
3x Pyrokenesis
1x Shattering Spree
2x Earwig Squad
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Grafdigger's Cage

Round 1: Shardless BUG 2-0

Game 1 he kept a sketchy hand with a ton of counters double wasteland, but I got a lackey turn 1 off a cavern and he scooped after I dropped Siege-Gang turn 2.
Game 2 he mulled to 5 and I hit a turn 1 vial, turn 2 vial and proceeded to out tempo him with 3 wastelands and 2 ports. (he told me he was new to the deck and sided out the FoW's due to my caverns)

Round 2: Elves 1-2

Game 1 he combo'd off with Craterhoof on turn 3
Game 2 I turn 1 lackey. He does things... I go turn 2 lackey. He does more things and shows me a Craterhoof in his hand. I drop perish for his entire board including 2 dryad arbors and he is stuck with just the beast in hand. He scooped.
Game 3 I played perish, perish, pyrokenesis and a grafdigger's cage this game and still lost. We both turtle for 5+ turns and I connect with a warchief to drop Earwig Squad grabbing his last 2 Glimpse of Nature's and his Craterhoof. He drops a Cradle and makes enough mana to cast the other Craterhoof he had in his hand. It was a grindy game and he earned it.

Round 3: ANT 2-1

Game 1 He combo'd off on turn 2.
Game 2 I hit him on turn 3 with a goblin token to get Earwig Squad taking his only win cons from his deck.
Game 3 is a repeat of game 1 play for play. He was pissed.

Round 4: Miracles 2-1

Game 1 I dont remember much about this one. He just got there miraculously.
Game 2 was just a redo of the ANT match-up taking his planeswalkers and I grinded him out.
Game 3 he mulled to 4 and scooped. I guess he wasn't in a good mood.

I had to drop before round 5 for work the next morning. But I got some good testing done. I love the black splash now. Though I feel some of my wins were from sheer luck and only a small amount of skill.

[Chatto]

Went to a legacy event 3 towns over last night. Had some great match ups and went 3-1, but had to drop before round 5 due to work the next morning. The list is as follows:

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Ringleader
3x Gempalm Incinerator
3x Goblin Piledriver
3x Mogg War Marshall
3x Tarfire
1x Warren Wierding
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
4x Aether Vial
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
2x Badlands
1x Auntie's Hovel
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Badlands
1x Arid Mesa
3x Mountain
4x Cavern of Souls

2x Ashen Rider
2x Perish
3x Pyrokenesis
1x Shattering Spree
2x Earwig Squad
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Grafdigger's Cage

(...)

Nice result, congrats! Question: 4 Badlands or 2? You mention them two times seperately :smile:

[Zombiesquisher]

Oh sorry about that, only 2 Badlands. My girlfriend was using the other 2 in her deck that night. So I tried out the Auntie's Hovel. It's identical to Badlands, I never found myself unable to use it. Great budget card if anyone needs it.

[cooljets]

Nice update Gobolord. My only suggestion would be to add a line about Kiki-Jiki in the WInstigator build.

[Raznaak]

Ok, so second try of the RWB build, with Grenzo, tomorrow. The list may seem a bit strange, but I'm trying things in smalls local tournaments before the big local tournament coming this august.

Creatures
1 Earwig Squad
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Spells
1 Tarfire
1 Warren Weirding

4 AEther Vial

Lands
3 Arid Mesa
3 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
3 Plateau
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Earwig Squad
2 Pyroblast
2 Tarfire
1 Warren Weirding
2 Wear
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle


Edit:: Well that was pathetic. I didn't get to really test the changes, since I lost 1-3. I won violently against Merfolks, but I lost against 3 Burn decks. Yup, three burn decks. It was a 12-men tournament (people were at the big tournament at Ottawa), and I got three burn decks against me... :mad:
Any other deck would have been fine, or at lest a difficult but feasible matchup. There was a WUR delver, a Painterstone, an Affinity, two Dredges, one Sneak and Show, a Reanimator, a Merfolk, me, and the three burn decks. I've played against each one of the other decks, and prepared my side against them. But I got three burns. :cry:
But I alpha-striked the Merfolk player for 54 in a turn, so I got that going for me...

O-rings were useful, so they may stay there, Grenzo was absolutely useless (but to be fair, he couldn't be useful against Burn and merfolk was a race, so I couldn't afford casting him, I still need to see how he fares against control decks), I will maindeck all the tarfires and side the warrens weirdings, and Krenko was lackluster. Considering replacing him with SGC again. Gotta test it.

[BoiledDenim]

Has anyone tried out the Kiki-Jiki Goblin Settler combo in lieu of the Sharpshooter prosector combo?

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Ok, so second try of the RWB build, with Grenzo, tomorrow. The list may seem a bit strange, but I'm trying things in smalls local tournaments before the big local tournament coming this august.

...

Edit:: Well that was pathetic. I didn't get to really test the changes, since I lost 1-3. I won violently against Merfolks, but I lost against 3 Burn decks. Yup, three burn decks. It was a 12-men tournament (people were at the big tournament at Ottawa), and I got three burn decks against me... :mad:
Any other deck would have been fine, or at lest a difficult but feasible matchup. There was a WUR delver, a Painterstone, an Affinity, two Dredges, one Sneak and Show, a Reanimator, a Merfolk, me, and the three burn decks. I've played against each one of the other decks, and prepared my side against them. But I got three burns. :cry:
But I alpha-striked the Merfolk player for 54 in a turn, so I got that going for me...

O-rings were useful, so they may stay there, Grenzo was absolutely useless (but to be fair, he couldn't be useful against Burn and merfolk was a race, so I couldn't afford casting him, I still need to see how he fares against control decks), I will maindeck all the tarfires and side the warrens weirdings, and Krenko was lackluster. Considering replacing him with SGC again. Gotta test it.

I keep finding Chalice of the Void to be powerful. It would have been great against burn. Other than that I personally have found to be a slightly dis-favorable match-up, and possibly worse with the printing of Eidolon of the Great Revel.

I personally found Grenzo, Dungeon Warden to be very powerful against merfolk with the exception of their excellent draw of more than 1 True-Name Nemesis. After a few very, very small tournaments though I found he was best against decks that rely on heavy counter-spell permission, not very good against straight tempo, and straight up bad against combo. Which hits the exact opposite of every axis we want. We are already great against counter-spells, reasonable against tempo, and straight up bad against combo.


Has anyone tried out the Kiki-Jiki Goblin Settler combo in lieu of the Sharpshooter prosector combo?

I have, but not extensively. My meta shifts to such a manner that we sometimes we end up with several Shardless BUG Lists with 0-1 Marit Lage deck. When this happens I put a Goblin Settler in the board and swap my win condition from Siege-Gang Commander to Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. Unfortunately the situation of the two being in play has yet to happen or get close to happening. I have on the other hand drawn Goblin Settler and found him to be pretty bad alone with the two exceptions of blowing up Maze of Ith and fighting 12-post.

Edit: Sorry you had to play against so many Burn decks. Sounds like that was terrible-- It'd be pretty hard not to go on tilt out of anger.

[GoboLord]

Nice update Gobolord. My only suggestion would be to add a line about Kiki-Jiki in the WInstigator build.

That's something I have been thinking about today. Why is, in Winstigator builds, Kiki-Jiki a better choice than Krenko and Siege-Gang Commander. I know that I don't want Krenko and I know that SGC is not what I'm looking for either, but I can't explain why Kiki-Jiki is the right choice here. What's your oppinion on that?

--------------------------------------------------

Also: Tournament report featuring
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/vma/254.jpg

The list:

MANA (23)
3 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Fetchlands
2 Badlands
5 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Chrome Mox

CORE (16)
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

OTHERS (15)
4 Tarfire
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Warren Instigator
1 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weiridng
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden

Sideboard (15)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Earwig Squad
3 Perish
2 Dismember
2 Mindbreak Trap

Changes to my last list were:
-2 Warchief, -1 Warren Instigator
+2 Grenzo, + 1 Mountain


Round 1: Shardless BUG ft. Tombstalker
I win a very long an very close Game 1. Grenzo was absolutely crappy, he fed Goyfs and Deathrite Shamans. I wanted to board out both copies, but felt like he deserved another chance.

Game 2 I kept 2 lands, 2 Vials, Matron, Chieftain, Ringleader. This felt like a safe thing to do since I figured out he had played 0 discard spells in game 1. The hand was good in lategame and wouldn't even lose to Abrupt Decay. My opponent played Null Rod on turn 2 and I was never able to get into the game.

Game 3 I decided to bring in one of my Tuktuk Scrappers again, that I had boarded out after G1. So Grenzo had to go. At the beginning thing went really good, only my Ringleaders were not in shape today: 2 Ringleaders were put into play and all I got was 1 Stingscourger (and 7 blanks). Tough luck, I had imprinted my Warren Weirding into Chrome Mox earlier, so Tombstalker was too tall for me to handle after he cast him for ther second time. At some point we were in topdeck mode and my opponent Brainstormed into Shardless Agent + Tarmogoyf.

0-1

Round 2: Mono B Pox Ctrl
Game 1 Tuktuk Scrapper broke a lock of Crucible of Worlds + Mishra's Factory + Wasteland + Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, by Vial-Flashing into play, destroying Crucible and blocking Mishra.

Game 2 I kept the following opening hand: 3 Piledrivers, 2 Chieftain, Chrome Mox, Tarfire, Mountain. My opponent started with Dark Ritual, Inquisition of Kozilek (picking my Chrome Mox) and Hymn to Tourach. Turn 2 he destroyed my only land with Sinkhole or Smallpox, I'm not sure. I scoop.

Game 3 I open with VIal and after he completely wipes my hand and board we are both in topdeck mode. Goblins are better at topdecking than most decks.

1-1

Round 3: Junk (BGw)
Game 1 is impossible to win for me. T1: Thoughtseize at Grenzo. T2: Tarmogoyf. Turn 3: Abrupt Decay @ Vial. Turn 4 Hymn to Tourach and 2 Deathrite Shaman. I didn't want to keep Grenz in my deck against someone with Goyfs and DRS, but still give him a try, so only 1 copy goes to the SB.

Game 2 is taking forever. GRenzo gets 'online', but only feeds Tarmogoyf. At one point I had to hold back a Ringleader to use Grenzo's ability (otherwise that poor guy would have been a 2/2 creature without any abilty. Some turns later he has Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman, which are able to eat creatures revealed with Grenzo, even before they hit the battlefield. However I manage to win at some point. And board out the 2nd Grenzo as well.

Game 3 my opponent mulls to 4, my opening 6 were: Mountain, Chrome Mox, Tarfire, Warren Instigator, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Rinngleader. My opponent plays a fetchland and passes. I play Chrome Mox (imprinting Matron), Mountain, and WInstigator. My opponent play s Hymn to Tourarch, hitting Ringleader and Tarfire. I draw another Ringleader and attack. First strike trigger --> RIngleader: 0 Goblins. 2nd strike trigger --> Ringleader: 1 Goblin (Ringleader). My opponent stabilizes the board with Tarmogoyf, Deasthrite Shamane, Scavenging Ooze and Liliana. Needless to say that he won that game, which was a very frustrating experience.

1-2

Round 4: MUD
Game 1 he takes mulligan to 5 which happened to be: Ancient Tomb, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Loadstone Golem and Glimmerpost. SInce he went first, my beatiful opening hand with Vial, LAckey, Chrome Mox and other stuff was pretty much useless. It seems like I'm stabilizing, but Grenzo let me down again, milling my deck, without actually having impact on the game. I lose 20 minutes later. Both Grenzos are boarded out in favor of Dismember. At that point I am almost done with that card.

Game 2&3 I land my Vial early and he gets overrun quickly.

2-2

Round 5: Nic Fit
Yay, finally a matchup where I could see Grenzo's full potential. At some point in the game (after my board was wiped by Pernicious Deed) I had only Grenzo, Tuktuk Scrapper and Cavern of Souls in hand. Because 2 Veteran Explorer fell prey to Perniscious Deed too we could search for 4 basiclands. I had only 3 left, played Caverns and Grenzo hit the field as a 4/4 creature (I had 8 lands in total at that point). Oh yeah baby, time to get this party started. Unfortunately Grenzo had no meaningful impact beyond his 4/4 body, since all he revealed was lands and Lackeys and Tarfires and another Grenzo. I lost the game to a lock-combination of Sun Titan + Pernicious Deed. Okay, that's it. My opponent managed to put Grenzo in the BEST POSSIBLE SITUATION (8 lands, already a 4/4 body, 0 meaningful cards in hands) and he still did absolutely nothing to win me the game. I boarded out both copies in favor of Earwig Squad.

Game 2&3 Piledriver, WInstigator and Chieftain win me the game.


Conclusion
* I added another land to the deck, which was absolutely the right choice. For the upcoming event I will stick to 20 lands + 3 Chrome Moxen
* Grenzo is such a bad card. I mean, really. Read the report please. This is not made up and I really tried to give him a chance (again and again). He's not just underwhelming, he is actually bad for the deck. This card is not playable at all.
* my changes will be -2 Grenzo, +1 Winstigator and +1 Kiki-Jiki. Also I'm looking to cut Mindbreak Traps, but I don't know yet what to replace them with. Suggestions are welcome.

[LeoCop 90]

Well, I never claimed that Grenzo is very good in this deck and i said he is not what this deck needs immediately when he got printed. I think though that you've been incredibly unlucky with him (never revealed matrons or ringleaders or any decent creature) as well that a deck with grenzo should be built , if possible, in order to maximize its ability. For example, some gempalms in favor of tarfires... but then we all know that tarfire is essential in the actual metagame, and putting a 2/1 on the battlefield is not that exciting, so probably it isn't worth.


Some turns later he has Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman, which are able to eat creatures revealed with Grenzo, even before they hit the battlefield.

Can they do that? I supposed grenzo was blanked by rest in peace, but i didn't think they can exile your creatures before they enter the battlefield.


Why is, in Winstigator builds, Kiki-Jiki a better choice than Krenko and Siege-Gang Commander. I know that I don't want Krenko and I know that SGC is not what I'm looking for either, but I can't explain why Kiki-Jiki is the right choice here. What's your oppinion on that?

Well , i think the obvious reason is cheating in with instigator matron into kiki-jiki, then start copying matron . I suppose cheating in matron into siege-gang should usually be enough to win the game, but the card advantage created by kiki-jiki is even better. (i know the question was directed to cooljets but I just wanted to share my view)

[ScatmanX]

When i get sober will try to find our conversation explaining why kiki is better in the gater build.
Also, leecop is right. No one can respond while Grenzo abilitie is on the stack, so fuck ooze and deathrite.

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[Olaf Forkbeard]

That's something I have been thinking about today. Why is, in Winstigator builds, Kiki-Jiki a better choice than Krenko and Siege-Gang Commander. I know that I don't want Krenko and I know that SGC is not what I'm looking for either, but I can't explain why Kiki-Jiki is the right choice here. What's your oppinion on that?

The reason Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is so powerful in the Warren Instigator builds is simply his ability to be in play with a relevant creature with one hit. Warren Instigator into Goblin Matron bringing Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker to the board puts a strong amount of pressure on any opponent, even combo as you can set up hasty Goblin Piledriver(s) the following turn. I would argue this line is simply just stronger than Goblin Ringleader into whatever he pulls, and that is a very powerful line in itself. He just gives the deck that much more power without any real drawback. Sure Siege-Gang will scare the opponent, but it's all gone in a board wipe, with the other route you still have pressure in hand AND the field. Beyond all that copying Goblin Chieftain, the preferred haste lord in Warren Instigator builds, is simply stronger than copying Goblin Warchief. AKA: A 4 mana Siege-Gang Commander is more valuable to the deck that runs Goblin Warchief than two 3/3's is to the deck that runs Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker as the Warren Instigator builds are simply so aggressive.

[Yio]

There's a new Goblin revealed:

1R
Goblin Kaboomist
Creature - Goblin Warrior
1/2

At the beginning of your upkeep, put a colorless artifact token named Land Mine onto the battlefield with "R, sacrifice this artifact: This artifact deals 2 damage to target attacking creature without flying." Then flip a coin. If you lose the flip, Goblin Kaboomist deals 2 damage to itself.

---

I personally think it has some potential, even though it's a bit risky and mostly defensive. I do not know if it is too colour-heavy, but it's an interesting card in the least.

[Sandro95]

There's a new Goblin revealed:

1R
Goblin Kaboomist
Creature - Goblin Warrior
1/2

At the beginning of your upkeep, put a colorless artifact token named Land Mine onto the battlefield with "R, sacrifice this artifact: This artifact deals 2 damage to target attacking creature without flying." Then flip a coin. If you lose the flip, Goblin Kaboomist deals 2 damage to itself.

---

I personally think it has some potential, even though it's a bit risky and mostly defensive. I do not know if it is too colour-heavy, but it's an interesting card in the least.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/m15/sf0JdVsk2/EN_42um78zriv.png

[potatodavid]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/m15/sf0JdVsk2/EN_42um78zriv.png

This card makes me happy for some reason. I don't see it taking over our 2 drop spots, but every upkeep makes me happy.

[jrw1985]

Great flavor! Not Legacy viable.

[potatodavid]

great flavor! Not legacy viable.

i want to believe!

[LeoCop 90]

Does rest in peace shut off Grenzo ? Ok, the card will be exiled when hit the graveyard, but then does it remain exiled or is put into the battlefield from exile ??

[Olaf Forkbeard]

Does rest in peace shut off Grenzo ? Ok, the card will be exiled when hit the graveyard, but then does it remain exiled or is put into the battlefield from exile ??

Grenzo, Dungeon Warden does not work under Rest in Peace.

2: Put the bottom card of your library into your graveyard. If it's a creature card with power less than or equal to Grenzo's power, put it onto the battlefield.

Rest in Peace kicks in as a state based action to replace the movement from grave to exile.

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. (http://magiccards.info/rule/400-general.html#rule-400-7)

Since it is a new object it cannot be found by Grenzo, Dungeon Warden ability and it "fizzles."


Edit: Keep reading, I was proven wrong.

[Phoeni]

Q: Grenzo, Dungeon Warden turns over a Goblin, but my opponent has Rest in Peace. Do I get my Goblin from exile?

A: You do! The ability doesn't specify that it checks in or returns from a graveyard, so it will check in the first zone the card moves to, if it moves to a public zone, and then move it to the battlefield from that zone. Your little Goblin will make a journey from your library to exile to the battlefield to your opponent's face in record time.

Source (http://www.cranialinsertion.com/article/1308)

[Tyrio]

Grenzo, Dungeon Warden does not work under Rest in Peace.

2: Put the bottom card of your library into your graveyard. If it's a creature card with power less than or equal to Grenzo's power, put it onto the battlefield.

Rest in Peace kicks in as a state based action to replace the movement from grave to exile.

400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. (http://magiccards.info/rule/400-general.html#rule-400-7)

Since it is a new object it cannot be found by Grenzo, Dungeon Warden ability and it "fizzles."

I've read that since Grenzo's ability doesn't actually specify that the creature has to be in the graveyard, once it sees that the (now exiled) creature has less than or equal power it'll bring it back to the battlefield.

edit: beaten to it.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

I've read that since Grenzo's ability doesn't actually specify that the creature has to be in the graveyard, once it sees that the (now exiled) creature has less than or equal power it'll bring it back to the battlefield.

edit: beaten to it.

It seems I was wrong. I did read the following but for some reason thought it didn't apply.

400.7g A resolving spell or activated ability can perform actions on an object that moved from one zone to another while that spell was being cast or that ability was being activated, if that object moved to a public zone. (http://magiccards.info/rule/400-general.html#rule-400-7-g)


Neat.

[jrw1985]

Suddenly Goblins has the Most graveyard-hate resistant reanimate ability. Weird.

[jrw1985]

Suddenly Goblins has the Most graveyard-hate resistant reanimate ability. Weird.

[potatodavid]

Suddenly Goblins has the Most graveyard-hate resistant reanimate ability. Weird.

Still like you said earlier if they're boarding R.I.P. against goblins... You're in good shape.

I looked at gobolord's testing of the bearded green one, It didn't look very good.

[ScatmanX]

Did 2-2 today with my last list basically. Change the lands to get a TSH md and tool out Therapies for 2 MB trap, tuktuk and Wort.
Against snt got t2d, then Chalice t2 stopped his cantrips, then killed him t3 with Gator +matron (getting kiki) +pilly.

Lost g1 against canadian to stifle waste fow double delver bolt. G2 killed 2 goyfs a delver and 2 geese, but did not get past 3 lands and could not handle the 3rd goyf. Won a game for fun later by connecting gator into Wort with a Weirdings. He had tumble but Wort survives.

Won g1 against solidarity by killing him t3. Won g2 because he tried to combo off in his turn... won and lost a game for fun. Chalice and Squad rox.

Lost g1 to elves in a mull to 4. Won g2 after he decayed Shooter and Chalice, then cast Prog with another dude. Perish was good. G3 i kept a hand with Gator but no hate. Should never do that. Lost.

The RB version is pretty awesome and ill push it for some more time.
Still no time to test Grenzo, but van probably trust gobbolords testing. Still, will do it someday.


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[jimmythegreek]

Seems that most of the newer goblins are designed for the casual player not the competitive. As a fan of the tribe its kind of infuriating wizards cant produce a decent, playable goblin. We really need a power boost to keep this deck tier 1/2 competitive. Im interested in hearing from others what the realistic/ideal goblin would look like.

[LeoCop 90]

Seems that most of the newer goblins are designed for the casual player not the competitive. As a fan of the tribe its kind of infuriating wizards cant produce a decent, playable goblin. We really need a power boost to keep this deck tier 1/2 competitive. Im interested in hearing from others what the realistic/ideal goblin would look like.

I totally agree and i am a bit pissed that things like goblin kaboomist / goblin diplomats are being printed again and again. I mean, they are funny cards and i am happy they exist because goblins are stupid creatures and i love them for this, but when merfolks are now playing true name nemesis and elves deathrite shaman + the new reclamation sage (we are hoping for a shatter goblin since a lot of time), i would love to see a new overpowered goblin. I'm not willing to start the discussion about what would be ideal because we talked about it several times and speaking of non existent cards doesn't contribute to this thread development.