[Deck] Goblins

[clashed]

That's it! I'm convinced to try Ancient Grudges after getting beaten down by Batterskull and friends.

I'm 3-1 so far against Stoneforge Landstill with my RGB (Perish, Krosan Grips in SB and 2 Tinstreets MD) decklist (a few pages back) but couldn't pull through yesterday. The difference was it was my first time playing against the Squadron Hawk version. With Factories, Hawks, and Stoneforge on the table, it's really difficult to get through onto the other side.

Normally, my strategy against non Squadron hawk versions is to bounce/gempalm most of their creatures and grip when I see most fit, once the way is cleared I Alpha Strike the opponent. Against this version, it's very hard to squeeze through their walls therefore they stall a few more turns resulting in dropping more equipment onto the field.

I'm cutting a Grip and a Goblin Sharpshooter for 2 Ancient Grudges.

My SB will look like:
2 Tormod's Crypt - to battle Aggro Loam, Dredge, Lands
1 Relic of Progenitus - see above
3 Pyrokinesis - Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins (even though we're a rare breed now), Elves
2 Krosan Grip - Stoneforge Landstill, Enchantress, Thopter, Counterbalance, Dreadstill, Affinity
2 Ancient Grudge - Enchantress, decks with Jitte / Vial, Thopter, Affinity
2 Perish - Enchantress, Zoo, No RUG, Elves
3 Chalice of the Void - Belcher, TES, Enchantress, Burn

Other cards under consideration:
Cabal Therapy (in MD as well + Stingscouger really stings)
Reverent Silence (a single RS due to with the amount of Enchantress decks I'm been playing)
Thorn of Amethyst (may be better against Enchantress, combo, burn, Belcher altogether than Chalice)
Pithing Needle (piths many decks)

Goblin sharpshooter is your friend vs. squadron hawk. Make sure to bait removal first

[jrw1985]

Went 2-2 at tonight's tournament. Some really weird stuff happened, so I'm gonna tell ya'll about it.

R1 Burn
G1 He was on the play, so I lost.
G2 I has Lackey and Misstep, so I won.
G3 I mulled to 5. Ugh. Then I let him beat me down for about 10 with 2 Goblin Guides. Then he played a Lavamancer and won. He burned out every goblin i tried to play. Here's my big mistake though: I has 2 Gempalms that game. Ready for a reminder in game play?
Gempalm Incinerator counts ALL GOBLINS IN PLAY, not just the goblins you control. When he was beating me down with 2 Guides I could have burned one, then burned the Lavamancer, and had a chance in the game. But I didn't.
So remember, Gempalm counts Goblin Guide, Goblin Welder, Kiki-Jiki, and Mutavault. Play it accordingly.
0-1
After that game I went scouting, and saw that the guy I got paired up with for the next round was playing UW Stoneforge Landstill.

R2 UW Landstill
G1- I was on the play. No lands. I mulled. All lands. I mulled again. No lands. I mulled again! With 4 cards in hand I had Lackey, Tin-Street, Wasteland and Port. I knew what he was playing. He didn't know what I was playing. So I just scooped and said "let's go to game 2. I'll play." He thought this was strange, naturally. I sided in 7 cards, and he saw this and put me on an aggro deck, so he sided accordingly. This is important. We were playing at a rather casual tournament, so I wasn't going to try and shuffle in my whole sideboard then remove 15 cards from the pile, but if it had been a higher-stakes tournament I would have done that putting-in-all-15-SB-cards thing. Basically, I gave-up my information advantage by letting him see how many cards I sided in, and he successfully guessed i was on aggro.
G2- I had a Lackey in play. He cast a SFM for Batterskull. I had a Ringleader and Pyro in hand, but no other red cards. I decided to gamble, since he had only 3 cards in hand, and I hardcast the Ringleader. It was good, and drew me some gobbos, one of which I used to cast Pyro and win the game.
G3- He kept a hand with 3 Mishra's Factories and a Vedalken Shakles. He Shackled a Piledriver after playing 1 Tundra. I Wasted the Tundra, attacked, cast Ancient Grudge on an activated factory before he could block with it. Then i flashed back the Grudge on the Shackles. The next turn I played another goblin and attacked, and Gempalmed his Factory before blockers. GG.
1-1

R3 Bant
I was playing down against a guy who was 0-2. I asked him to scoop and we would play it out for fun. He kindly agreed.
G1- I had Vial at 2 with no 2drop in hand. I activated Vial. He Stifled it. Cool. The next turn I upped Vial to 3. I had no 3 drops in hand. I activated Vial. He Stifled it. Tres Cool. I upped Vial to 4, and Vialed in a Ringleader. Win.
G2- I beat him down. Eventually he had 2 KotR as 10/10s, but I had blockers and he was at 10 life. I had a SGC in play, so I just kept mana up and started throwing Goblins at him in the end steps.
2-1

R4 Merfolk
G1- I had Lackey, he Mental Missteps, so I MM his MM. I also had removal. A winning combination.
G2- I had a much more mediocre hand, but I had a Vial so i kept. He MMd the Vial, which ultimately won him the game. He used Dismember well.
G3- I mulled to 6 on the play. I had a bunch of Vials and Lackey, but only 1 Land the whole game. When he attacked with 2 lords into 2 Lackeys I Vialed in a Chieftain and double-blocked his Lord of atlantis. He cast Dismember on my Chieftain and 3-for-1'd me. Ouch. Piledriver almost got me there though, but his lone Mutavault was able to block it and keep me from smashing his face the last turn.
2-2

So, yeah, it was a weird night. To recap-

Gempalm counts your opponent's goblins too, including Goblin Guide, Goblin Welder, Kiki-Jiki, and activated Mutavaults.

Scout if you have time between rounds.

If you need to do weird shit (like scooping G1 before playing a card) then you should probably take the extra precaution of concealing your sideboarding.

Burn out activated man-lands and cheated-in blockers before they declare blocks. Just because your opponent taps a mana then puts a blocking mutavault in front of your Lackey doesn't mean that that Mutavault is actually blocking yet. Just saw, "Before blockers are declared, Pyrokinesis."

Don't be afraid to ask someone to scoop to you if you're paired down. Don't be a dick about it though, and you should still offer to play for fun.

Activate your Vials at every end-step, even if you can't play anything. You just might draw out a Stifle or two.

The Merfolk MU has gotten much more difficult. Dismember is just a freakin' beast when it's aimed at Lackey or Piledriver. You need to be congnizant of how the game will play out when they stop your 1-drop. Vial is a better T1 than Lackey because they can Dismember the Lackey. If you're playing Green, you might want to consider playing Chokes in your sideboard. It seems like a good idea at the moment. Ultimately, this MU comes down to who gets the better draw and who is on the play. (Choke in the sideboard? Brilliant!)

[ScatmanX]

jrw1985, thanks for the insights.
Just to advance something for you: Choke is not good against Merfolk.
You don't want to low goblin count more.
You don't want a spell that won't do anything to the board state (read creatures).
You don't want to have to fetch a Taiga against Wastelands.

[Amon Amarth]

How/why would you board in Choke against Merfolk? If you are bringing Pyrokinesis there isn't any room left. Choke doesn't affect the board either, especially against a Blue deck with Aether Vial.

[Davran]

@jrw1985:

Are you still playing the Misstep list you discussed a couple pages back? Also, what did you board in (and, more importantly, out) against landstill? I assume 3-4 Pyros (depending on how many you run), but what else?

@Everyone:

How do you guys typically handle Painted Stone?

[jrw1985]

@ Darvan
I was using the list I posted recently, Rgb with 4 MM maindeck.
Against stoneforge landstill I sided in 3 Pyro, 3 Ancient Grudge, 1 K-Grip and sided out 4 MM, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Earwig Squad, and a Gempalm(?). Basically, MM doesn't do much against them because you need an answer to Stoneforge. That's it. Stingscourger is pretty useless because you're either bouncing SFM so they can grab more equipment, or you're bouncing a Germ and leaving equipment on the table. No bueno. Earwig isn't necessary in this match, and Gempalm is redundant with all the removal you side in.

@ Everyone that said Choke was a bad idea:
You're all idiots and morons. I hate you. And you're probably right...
I think I should probably change my sideboard so that it runs 4 Pyros and 2 Ancient Grudge, rather than a 3/3 split. Pyro is too good against merfolk, and easily replaces the 4 MM maindeck. I was really only considering Choke because I've lost too frequently to Merfolk, but adding a 4th Pyro to the sideboard is probably the best option.

@ Painted Stone
Pyrokinesis is huge because you can burn out their Painter and Welder. Ancient Grudge is huge because it can hit BOTH of their combo pieces. MM is great because it can stop their Grindstone and Welder.

@ Pyrokinesis
This card should be an auto 4-of in every SB, I think. It's great on the draw or play. It mutilates Stoneforge, Merfolk, Zoo, Elves, Affinity. It's only susceptible to FoW counters, not Daze, MM, or Spell Snare, and Spell Pierces aren't boarded in against Goblins.

[Amon Amarth]

Pyrokinesis is the best card in our sideboard with the possible exception of Tormod's Crypt. I think it should only be played as a 3-of if you are already running Perish as well. 5-6 sweepers is enough.

Speaking of which, how do you guys play your Pyrokinesis? Do you hold it to get maximum value or do you blast it on the first guy that gets in Lackeys way?

[unicoerner]

This is my actual List and i am pretty happy with it.

Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
5 [BD] Mountain (3)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [U] Badlands

// Creatures
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [WWK] Tuktuk Scrapper
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [REL] Earwig Squad
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [WL] Null Rod

I really like to have more goblins on the 1 or 2 drop, because Vial fizzles there too often. For Warren i feel i play too many Colourless Lands and then not a lot are left.

2nd: 1 Warmashall seems random but i included him, because of the former reason. Id like to cut him for sth sweet. 1 Weirding can be cut aswell, so i possibly have 2 open slots. But i can't really come up with sth good. Perhaps 2 Missteps or are these too random?

[unicoerner]

This is my actual List and i am pretty happy with it.

Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
5 [BD] Mountain (3)
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [U] Badlands

// Creatures
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [WWK] Tuktuk Scrapper
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 [TSP] Mogg War Marshal

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [REL] Earwig Squad
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [WL] Null Rod

I really like to have more goblins on the 1 or 2 drop, because Vial fizzles there too often. For Warren i feel i play too many Colourless Lands and then not a lot are left.

2nd: 1 Warmashall seems random but i included him, because of the former reason. Id like to cut him for sth sweet. 1 Weirding can be cut aswell, so i possibly have 2 open slots. But i can't really come up with sth good. Perhaps 2 Missteps or are these too random?

[Hyped]

My SCG Legacy Open Pittsburgh Report:

Decklist:

2 rishadan port
4 Wasteland
14 mountain
1 Snow-covered Mountain
2 chrome mox

26 Core

2 stingscourger
4 gempalm incinerator
4 warren instigator
1 cheiftain

2 surgical extraction
3 thorn of amethyst
1 boartusk liege
1 pyromancer
1 sharpshooter
1 prospector
2 chaos warp
1 anarchy
3 shattering spree

Round 1. NO RUG. I lose the die roll and am on the draw
Game 1. He gets progenitus out turn three or four and bashes my skull in
Game 2. I resolve a lackey turn one and his first play is to GSZ into Dryad Arbor to block. Turn two I clear the way for lackey by tapping Dryad Arbor with port, which was fun. He then proceeded to play fire // ice and lightning bolt to clear most of my board however and then beat down with 2 goyfs for a round 1 loss. When I resolved Ringleader in this game it whiffed and drew only 1 goblin.

Round 2. ANT.
Game 1. I hit him with some goblins but he combos off on turn 3, trendrils hits for 22 life. ouch.
Game 2. I SB in surgical extraction and thorn of amethyst but his turn one play is to thoughtseize my surgical out of my hand before it is relevant and his turn two play is to chain of vapor my thorn of amethyst. He combos off again before I can swing for lethal and I don't think I will ever leave home again without four mindbreak trap.

Round 3. R/U ???
The only spells I saw him cast both games were cemetary puca, unsummon and fire // ice. I'm not sure what he was trying to do but I stomped him both games.

Round 4. Reanimator
Game 1. He goes entomb / reanimate for elesh norn very early and I am able to hold him off with stingscourger but not finish him off and I lose game one.
Game 2. Of course I have very little graveyard hate to sideboard in because I was expecting a heavy amount of stoneforge mystic / equipment / artifacts. I am able to surgical extraction away his first reanimate target which was sphinx of the steel wind, but soon after he resolves Iona. I didn't have a stingscourger all game and I didn't live long enough to vial in matron for stingscourger, which amounted to a loss.

After going 1 and 3 I dropped. I'm not a fan of Chaos Warp as Progenitus, Iona, and Sphinx were all immune to it, and I think I'll leave both them and Anarchy at home until enchantress becomes more common. I think I could have done much better if I had gotten some match ups like Zoo and Stoneforge Mystic, orif I had brought my Mindbreak Traps with me. Overall it was a fun learning experience and I still plan to take goblins to my next tournament.

[Davran]

I'm not a fan of Chaos Warp as Progenitus, Iona, and Sphinx were all immune to it, and I think I'll leave both them and Anarchy at home until enchantress becomes more common. I think I could have done much better if I had gotten some match ups like Zoo and Stoneforge Mystic, orif I had brought my Mindbreak Traps with me. Overall it was a fun learning experience and I still plan to take goblins to my next tournament.

Interesting thoughts about Chaos Warp. It seems like Warren Wierding is the only real answer our deck has to those cards. I agree that Chaos Warp is probably great against singleton Moats though.

As for Mindbreak Trap, my experience with the card has been mixed. I see a lot of combo in my meta and the TES player is usually ready to Silence/Chant/Duress me before going off. In your case, he likely would have used the Thoughtseize on your Trap and the result would have been the same. I think Thorn is quickly becoming more relevant given the amount of Hive Mind running around right now, and it also has limited application against other decks.

Reanimator has been a problem for me too, and I'm really considering switching my board to 4x Leyline of the Void despite playing mono-red. It gets bonus points for being equally good at hosing dredge and aggro-loam which are popping up everywhere lately.

[mooN_MTG]

Why everyone forget Goblins after Mental Misstep appearance? -.-''

Anyone have the list of the guy who played againd Caleb Durward in the last SCG Legacy Open?? I see 3 Warren Weiding in play :)

[jrw1985]

The US Metagame and You!

StarCityGames is kind enough to publish statistical breakdowns of its events, specifically stating the number of decks in the field and the winning percentages of those decks. I decided to compare the lists over the last 4 posted events, going back to GP Providence...
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/archive.php?Article=Jesse+and+Alix+Hatfield

What I saw wasn't much of a surprise, but it spoke volumes about the metagame. The single most popular deck going back to the GP is clearly Merfolk. The single most popular strategy is Stoneblade. Stoneblade is a strategy because it fits into many many different shells, and UW, BW, Bant and Esper Stoneblade decks were all present in large numbers. NO RUG and Zoo are probably the next two most popular decks. Dredge and Affinity are both surprisingly popular also.

The glaring absence is storm combo. Ad Nauseum was unusually popular in the SCG Invitational, but seldom seen beyond that tournament. Hive Mind and Painter Stone were sporadically popular, but not yet in large numbers.

The assumption I'm drawing from this data is as follows-
1) Playing blue hate is a good idea. With Merfolk super popular and blue prominently featured in NO RUG and most Stoneblade decks (as well as growing strategies like Reanimator and Hive Mind) we should really start boarding in REBs and Pyroblasts. There's just too many targets for them to be overlooked.
2) Playing Ancient Grudge is a great idea. Stoneblade is everywhere and Affinity is still one of the most popular decks. Having a couple 2fer1s in your sideboard will go a long way.
3) Pyrokinesis is awesome against everything but Dredge and HiveMind (it even burns Jin in Reanimator).
4) Dredge and Reanimator aren't going anywhere. GY hate and edict effects are still very useful.

Using what I now know, how can I improve upon my sideboard?
Sideboard:
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyrokinesis

First, what I'm sure of-
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyrokinesis
Both great cards. Neither going anywhere.

Second, what I'm uncertain of-
1 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
KGrip is randomly good against E Plague and enchantress, while still useful against Stoneblade
The GY hate is too narrow. Neither are especially good against dredge, and both are terrible against manaless dredge, which is gaining steam. They're decent against Reanimator though, and any deck running Loam. But against Dredge you probably want something that can nuke the whole yard

Finally, what I think needs to go-
Sideboard:
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Pithing Needle
There is so little Storm Combo being played these days (and I've run into so little of it at my local shop) that I really think these need to go. Chalice is underpowered now that I run Mental Misstep. Thorn is fine but it's not THAT good against control decks. Needle is just too random. you could almost always side it in but seldom need to. And with all the artifact hate from the Ancient Grudges you won't even need Needle to turn off Grindstones or Mishra's Factories anyway. In these 4 slots I believe 2 REBs and 2 Pyroblasts would serve me better.

Sideboarding-
Merfolk +Pyrokinesis, REB, Pyroblast (7)
Stoneblade +Ancient Grudge, Pyrokinesis, KGrip (7)
NO RUG +Pyrokinesis, REB, Pyroblast
Zoo +Pyrokinesis

[L10]

For mono-red, Shattering Spree is a good alternative to Ancient Grudge.
Pyrokinesis had always been our staple SB card. I do not see this changing any time soon.
Frankly, there really is no point of having only one Krosan Grip against enchantments. You have a better chance of having a single lord as your token one-off against E. Plaque, which is the only scary enchantment used lately anyways. Though, I guess you did get lucky on your last tournament with a single Krosan Grip.
Surgical Extraction is competing with Relic of Progenitus for Graveyard Hate and in this meta, targeting specific key cards are sometimes better than removing the entire grave. A good dredge player can normally recover from one, maybe even two nukes. The only good answer against dredge is Leyline of the Void, which essentially makes manaless dredge fold.

My SB would probably look like this (mono red):
3 Chalice of the Void (Zoo, combo Elves, etc)
3 Pyroblast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Shattering Spree
3 Surgical Extraction
I already have two Chieftains MD so I feel decent against E. Plague. Otherwise, I'd probably have a Boartusk Liege or another Chieftain in my SB.

Honestly, I have not played works weeks do to work and GRE study, so I have not had the time to fine tune my SB, or my deck in general.

The last time I used Chaos Warp. I warped a Ghostly Prison into a Moat. That is what I get for gambling. D:

[Hof]

Just a few points:

Boggart Shenanigans in SB is my favorite answer to Engineered Plague and any other mass destruction strategy (sweepers). Just make sure you find it and cast it early (note that it can be put into play with Lackey). It is often very difficult for an opponent to deal with your Goblins AND with Shenanigans.

I think REB is stricly better than Pyroblast now because Spellskite is seeing some play.

Surgical Extraction is very good against Dredge, because it can remove all 4 Bridges, something Crypt or relic normally can't do.

I for one think that Pyrokinesis is just a little overrated. I'm not saying that it isn't good, I just think that it improves only fair matchups that isn't Goblins major problems. Removing creatures is one of the things Goblins is actually good at. I would rather improve matchups against, say, Dredge, HiveMind, and other kombo. Against Affinity, another difficult matchup, I would rather have artifact hate. I might play 2 Pyrokineses in the main, but as a SB card I have never really liked it. (runs for cover)

[GoboLord]

First of all:
thanks to jrw for your analysis - this one is very helpful. (in fact: you're doing this quite often and nobody ever thanked you)

Here's what I think about it:


The assumption I'm drawing from this data is as follows-
1) Playing blue hate is a good idea. With Merfolk super popular and blue prominently featured in NO RUG and most Stoneblade decks (as well as growing strategies like Reanimator and Hive Mind) we should really start boarding in REBs and Pyroblasts. There's just too many targets for them to be overlooked.
2) Playing Ancient Grudge is a great idea. Stoneblade is everywhere and Affinity is still one of the most popular decks. Having a couple 2fer1s in your sideboard will go a long way.
3) Pyrokinesis is awesome against everything but Dredge and HiveMind (it even burns Jin in Reanimator).
4) Dredge and Reanimator aren't going anywhere. GY hate and edict effects are still very useful.
I know that this part is about assumptions. I want to correct some of these:
1) I agree with you that blue hate is a good idea and REB/PYblast serve that purpose very well. I disagree though that REB is need (or that you even have room for it after G1) against Stoneforge strategies. In this MU you want to aim for their very few creatures and possibly kill their equipments. Here you need Ancient Grudge and Pyrokinesis (and I wouldn't even recommend that one). No room for REB.

2) AGREEAGREEAGREEAGREE. Awsome Grudge is Awsome. There's no denying that.

3) Pyrokinesis is not awsome against UW Stoneblade. I find that your "regular" spotremoval (Gempalm, Tarfire, Stinger) is enough and on top of that less risky since you don't need a pitch. You can't handle Jin Gitaxias once it has emptied your hand. Most often you will see other beasts enter the battlefield, since Sphinx and Blazing Archon are still more effective against Gobs.
This however does not mean that Pyrokinesis is a bad card. I just want to prevent that someone overestimates it or uses it wrong.

4) Dredge and Reanimator can (in my oppinion that's based on testing against those decks alot) hardly be beaten without Leyline of the Void. Dredge doesn't care even if you pack less than 5 non-Leyline-GY-haters. Meaning: They rarely have problems with other hate than Leyline (unless you pack 6+ of them).
As for Reanimator: Rishadan Port is your friend in this MU. This deck rarely drops more than 3 lands and they really like to fetch for U-Sea (read: Wasteland-target). Their Reanimation spells are all Sorcery Speed and Reanimate is the worst of them (because they lose life). So: In G2 you have to drop a Leyline on Turn-0 and keep them away from 3 lands (Show and Tell) or drop Lackey/vial on Turn 1 and keep them away from 2 lands.



Using what I now know, how can I improve upon my sideboard?

First, what I'm sure of-
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyrokinesis
Both great cards. Neither going anywhere.

Not sure about Pyrokinesis. This one can in my oppinion better be a playset of Perish. The MUs where you want Kinesis are running tons of green creatures...well, Merfolk doesn't, but I think we should absolutely prefer REB over Kinesis here.


Second, what I'm uncertain of-
1 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
KGrip is randomly good against E Plague and enchantress, while still useful against Stoneblade
The GY hate is too narrow. Neither are especially good against dredge, and both are terrible against manaless dredge, which is gaining steam. They're decent against Reanimator though, and any deck running Loam. But against Dredge you probably want something that can nuke the whole yard

About Krip: random. Cut it. Seriously: have you seen E. Plague around these days (read: Goblins is a "dead deck" again)? Against Stoneforge you need 3 Ancient Grudge (which is basically 6-in-3 against 3-4 nasty artifacts).
GY-Hate: if you spend 4 slots then let it be Leyline. Extractions/Extirpates are good against Hive Mind though, but then again they are useless if they didn't cast Intuition.



Finally, what I think needs to go-
Sideboard:
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Pithing Needle
There is so little Storm Combo being played these days (and I've run into so little of it at my local shop) that I really think these need to go. Chalice is underpowered now that I run Mental Misstep. Thorn is fine but it's not THAT good against control decks. Needle is just too random. you could almost always side it in but seldom need to. And with all the artifact hate from the Ancient Grudges you won't even need Needle to turn off Grindstones or Mishra's Factories anyway. In these 4 slots I believe 2 REBs and 2 Pyroblasts would serve me better.
AGREEAGREEAGREE on every letter you typed.



Sideboarding-
Merfolk +Pyrokinesis, REB, Pyroblast (7)
Stoneblade +Ancient Grudge, Pyrokinesis, KGrip (7)
NO RUG +Pyrokinesis, REB, Pyroblast
Zoo +Pyrokinesis
This is what your SB has come to: boarding 7 cards in almost every MU. This isn't good. Well, some MU are hard to win with less that 7 cards from board, but often you can rely on what you have in MD: removal + manadenial.
* Against Merfolk 3-4 extrablasts should be enough. Ports deal with Mutavaults. 6+ removal burn down nasty Lords. you don't really need another 7 cards from SB.
* Stoneblade: against UW SToneblade I wouldn't go for the Kinesis (as described earlier). Against GW SToneblade/Maverick Kinesis is fine.
* NO RUG: I understand why you want Kinesis here (although I think Perish is better in this MU, since it kills almost always their entire board + reaches Progenitus and Goofy). I don't understand what you use the Blasts for!?

This is what I would suggest (based on you analysis):

4 Leyline otV
4 Perish/Pyrokinesis
1 Sharpshooter
3 Ancient Grudge
3 REB/PYblast

I consider Sharpshooter a Goblin-Shaped Pyrokinesis. Not that they do the same things, but they are basically boarded for the same MUs:
Merfolk, non-U Stoneblade, Elves, NO RUG, Affinity.

About Perish: I myself stick to Perish right now. If you think of it: for the MUs where you would miss Kinesis (that is: where Kinesis is better than Perish) you have other cards to board. e.g.:

* Merfolk: here Kinesis is clearly better than Perish. But you have REB and Sharpshooter, which is enough
* Affinity: here Kinesis is clearly better than Perish. But you can board Grudges and Sharphooter.
* Reanimator: Kinesis > Perish, but not good enough to board to be honest. Leyline and REB get you there.
* Dredge: same.

In other MU where you want to have Kinesis, Perish is much better since it cleares the entire board:
* GW Stoneblade (Maverick)
* NO RUG
* Elves
* Zoo
* Canadian Thresh (Kinesis doesn't do a thing in this MU!)
* Bant (you don't even board Kinesis here, do you?)

[mooN_MTG]

@GoboLord what you think about Goblins deck have their own pack of Mental Misstep??

[GoboLord]

@ moon_mtg:
Mental Misstep in Goblins....well. jrw1985 has had success with it. If I were to embed them in the maindeck I'd probably just pick up his list. Me however don't like them as a MD card. I've always been in favor of running 6+ removal in MD. Thus, if I had room for 4 non-Goblin spells in MD I'd almost always pick Lightning Bolts (since it's better than Mental Misstep in dealing with creatures). On top of that Lightning Bolt is virtually never a dead card, while Mental Misstep can be quite useless sometimes. Well...this is only about comparison "Mental Misstep vs. Removal" cause I think you don't really need more in your MD than creatures, creature-removal and manadenial (and once in a while artifact-hate).
However...I didn't test Mental Misstep much in MD, thus I can only refer to jrw's success with it and conclude that they are a viable choice.
Mental Misstep as a SB-card: I tested that and were not happy with it. The MUs Mental Misstep was dedicated to (Canadian Thresh, Elves, Zoo, Combo, Dredge) were not improved the slightest. However, back then I didn't run Rishadan Ports (due to the WINstigator-Mox-Tech) in MD. jrw however said that Rishadan Ports are essential if you want to get the best out of Missteps. Maybe that's why they dissapointed me.

@ jrw1985: What's your name? I find it stupid to call you "jrw" whenever I'm refering to you (which ist quite often)
@ Everyone: My name is Christian. Pleased to work with you.

[jrw1985]

@GoboLord
My name is Jonathan, but for brevity's sake you can call me Jon. I'd like to thank you too, Christian. You've been a good sounding board and have continuously had excellent contribution to this thread. You had some really good points about sideboarding recently, especially pointing out that I'm probably bringing in too many cards. I agree with you, and I'm going into more detail about SB strategy later though.

@ moon_mtg
Since I've been running 4 MM maindeck I'll field this one. I think MM is amazing, and I wish more Goblins players adopted it. I've found that it is an awesome card G1, made even better if your opponent isn't playing blue. Having a Lackey or Vial in your opener is still the most important thing though. You just want to be lucky enough to have a 1drop and MM. If you're on the play, have a Lackey and MM in hand, and your opponent isn't playing blue, you've basically just won the game. Especially against Zoo.

Running 4 MM main makes sideboarding trickier though. Since it takes up slots it forces goblins out of your deck. And once you sideboard you really need to choose between siding out MORE goblins or taking out the MMs. Generally, siding out MMs seems like the preferred option, but there are occasions where you'll have to bite the bullet and side out more goblins than you'd care to.

Like I said, MM is amazing G1, but postboard there are many cards that will serve you better.

My Sideboard (with GoboLord's suggestions taken into consideration)
4 Leyline of the Void (God, I still hate this card, but against Dredge you gotta mull to hate anyway)
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Perish
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

The easiest MUs to sideboard for are things like Merfolk or HiveMind; blue decks that don't really rely on 1drops. Here you just side out MMs and side in 4 blasts. Against merfolk you can also side out cards like TinStreet Hooligan or Warren Weirding for Pyrokinesis (which unlike GoboLord I still think is pretty good against Merfolk). Even with Blasts and Kinesis in you're still running 27 Goblins, a significant advantage over their 20 Merfolk... Actually, now that I think of it, having 3:2 creature advantage over Merfolk is probably a major advantage. With 4 Red Blast cards sided in you have answers to their creatures and counterspells. Maintaining the creature advantage might be more important than siding in removal.

Boarding against Zoo is a quandry. MM is sooo gooood against Zoo when you're on the play, but pretty mediocre on the draw (where you'd probably prefer a Pyrokinesis). So, depending on whether you're on the draw or play, and whether you've seen more 1drops or 2drops, you can side out all your MMs for Pyrokinesis and perish, or you can just mix it up.

Stoneblade decks are pretty easy to side against. MM comes out, Ancient Grudge comes in, and I'll usually take out a Stingscourger and bring in Pyrokinesis. Pyro has a huge advantage of letting you burn out a Stoneforge before it can get online. Stingscourger does too, but it allows them to fetch up more equipment and live to block and cheat Batterskull into play.

Dredge is an interesting deck to board against. Obviously 4 Leylines come in and the MM go out against the manaless version. Against traditional Dredge MM is a very live card, and probably shouldn't be boarded out. In this case Leyline will replace utility or removal Goblins, since spot removal is kinda useless against a dozen Zombies. You've now lowered your count to 26 Goblins, but a Leyline or MM should give you plenty of time to establish a clock.

NO RUG is such a broad deck that it's difficult to board against. Sometimes you'll want a Red Blast, sometimes Perish, sometimes Pyrokinesis, sometimes MM. The best bet then (when there are just too many OK options) is to keep your deck as basic as you can. Keep that Goblin count at 30! Board out MM for Pyro and Perish and be done with it. Sure, they have counterspell, brainstorms, and Jace, but you can get through all of those with pure redundancy. This is an occasion where you need to let your deck just do what it does, and you should be OK.

Reanimator- This deck can end effectively lock you out of the game T2. Better then to decrease their chances of winning as much as possible and hope you have time to play catch-up. REB, Leyline, and MM are all very live in this match. MM can't be boarded out because too many of their business spells are 1cc (Reanimate, Entomb, Careful Study, Hapless Researcher, Brainstorm, Ponder, Discard Spells). REB can counter their counter on your Weirding or Stingscourger and can also kill Jin Gix before their first end step. And Leyline forces them to go the Show n Tell route (risky since they have so little mana AND Show n Tell is vulnerable to REB). This is a deck where I think cutting down to 22 Goblins is necessary (unless you like cutting Vials, which I don't). You don't need Gempalms anyway, and you can find a few goblins to shave off (or Vials, I guess).

I think, as a rule of thumb, that you can side out more Goblins the fewer win conditions your opponent plays. For aggro MUs keep as many bodies in as you can. Having redundant bodies is good against control too. It's combo decks that we really need to board most heavily against, because if we can't stop them from killing us they will before we have a chance to kill them.

@GoboLord
You said earlier that siding in 7 cards was too much. Why is 7 too much (as opposed to 4,5, or 6)?

[GoboLord]

Why is 7 too much? Hmm...
I don't really have a rule for that and maybe I just didn't express properly what I meant. Let me rephrase it then:

There is something odd about your sideboard if you need to board 7 cards against every deck thats popular right now. I mean: The more cards you board the worse your Goblin-beatdown strategy becomes (due to lowered Goblin-count). This is even more so if you want to keep in your MMs in G2 & 3. Now that you explained yourself that you happen to side out MMs, things are looking different. Thus: I thought that postboard 4 MMs + 7 non-Goblins are too much.
I myself like to design my SB in a way that you can board few cards that have the same effect as many "OK-cards". To give an example: If I worry about Canadian Thresh I'd rather have 4 Perish than 3 Relic of Progenitus + 3 Red Elemental Blast.

Examples:
I don't think that you need Kinesis for Merfolk if you already have 4 Blasts. I'm not saying that Kinesis is a bad card after all in this MU.
Same goes for Hive Mind: You dont need Extractions if you have REB.
...

[Amon Amarth]

Why would you want anything other than the max number of Perish against NO RUG? It doesn't play any blue spells that will beat you. In a sense, it's very similar to the old UGr Threshold decks from years ago. They had no legitimate targets for REB. If you have only 3 Perish SB I can see bringing in a Pyrokinesis.

Actually, you should be running the max number of Perish in your sideboard. That is the reason to run black. Perish trumps all the Knight, Goyf based decks, and there are a lot of them, and significantly increases your postboard percentages against these decks. If you cast Perish with any board presence you should win.

I agree with a lot that was said already. I never really board more than 4 cards per matchup. The only time I would is if I was playing against Combo and even thenthat doesn't hurt too much because your boarding out a couple Ringleaders anyways- those matchups never hinge on card advantage.

I really like Goblin Sharpshooter. Even against heavy removal decks like Zoo I still find it stellar. It's hard to think of situations where it would be good... but whenever I'm looking through my deck with Goblin Matron I often end up getting Sharpshooter even when I planned on getting a Ringleader or whatever. I value it very highly and I want to fit a second one in my SB against removal-less decks like Merfolk or G/W.

I also really like the Rbg splash for Goblins these days because you have the best SB. Wasteland and LD-centric decks seem to be on the decline.

...did I mention how good Sharpshooter is with Perish?

[liamb]

@Amon Amarth
Although I see your point about using the Rgb splash, I found your words (on wasteland to be on the decline) to be untruth. If you look on top 8 decks in metagame section on TCdecks (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Legacy) only zoo (3rd spot), Hive Mind (5th spot) and NO RUG (7th spot) not playing Wasteland. While Blade Control (1st), Maverick (2nd), Merfolks( 4th) Bant Aggro (6th) all plays Wasteland. If you add to this landstill decks, loam decks and rock decks and some ideas to add stifle to some current top tier decks (to fight HM) you will get totally different picture that Wasteland decks are on the rise. And that gives me a red light for playing 3C deck.

[Amon Amarth]

Discounting decks like Merfolk where you are already favored, you don't need splash colors at all to beat them. Besides, you aren't a true polychromatic deck. You're only playing 2 Taiga and 2 Badlands and a bunch of fetches. Just fetch for Mountains when appropriate.

[jrw1985]

Tournament Report !

Another Thursday night Legacy tournament is in the books.

Decklist Rgb Goblins
26 Core
4 Mental Misstep
1 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
22 Land (4Waste 4Port 2Badlands 2Taiga ~6Fetches)

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Perish

R1 - Reanimator
G1- He gets a Sphynx of the Steel Wind in play around turn 3. I Matron for a Weirding and only take one hit from it before winning the game. W
I side in 4 Leyline and 4 REB, siding out 3 Gempalm, TSH, Sharpshooter, and then some randoms. I now have 12 hate cards in, just because I need to have answers before he locks me out.
G2- Leyline in my opening 7, but not much gas. He forces something useful I try to play (Matron?), and instead of keeping him off three mana I let him Show and Tell a Sphinx into play again. Sphinx attacks me to 13, then I crack a fetch, which I realize effectively cut down his clock by 1/3. And i die 2 attacks later. L
G3- Leyline in my opening 7, and a little gas. I get some Goblins out, but when I draw a Matron I have a decision to make: Either go for a Ringleader or SGC to put more pressure on, or play defensively and grab a Stingscourger to SnT in (since he can't go the graveyard route with Leyline in play). The turn before I'm going to win he Echoing Truths my Leyline. I REB. He MMs. He draws for turn, and scoops. W
1-0

R2 Hulk Rebirth
G1- I have no idea what he's playing, but he leads with a T1 Dryad Arbor to answer my Lackey. I Waste the Arbor and Connect with Lackey. He gets only 1 more mana source this game. I have no idea what he's playing yet. W
G2- I side in Perish. He plays about a bajillion green walls. I play a Sharpshooter. He blows up a Sharpshooter with a Mogg Fanatic before Sharpshooter gets online. He then combos out on me. L
G3- I side in 4 Leylines and take out TSH and Gempalms. Leyline in my opening 7. I play Lackey T1. He plays a fetch. I attack, he fetches for Arbor. i burn out the arbor (with Pyro, removing Piledriver) before blocks and cheat in a Ringleader. He Therapies me next turn, but because of Leyline cannot recur Cabal Therapy on me, and I take it down. W
2-0

R3 Dredge
G1- I'm in the 2-0 bracket and my opponent wins the dice roll, chooses to draw. O Reeelez? But I have like 2 Lackeys so it's on. I play a Lackey. He plays City of Brass. I attack, he Darkblasts. I play a Lackey. He Dredged Darkblast. I attack, he darkblasts. I play a Warchief. Can't Darkblast that! He cabal therapies himself to get a Grave Troll in the yard. I Matron for Piledriver and attack him to 7. He played and activated a Cephalid Colluseum. No Narcomebias on the dredges (one was in his hand which I saw from the Therapy). I swung for the win. W
G2- I sided out some Gempalms and TSH for Leylines. Leyline in my opening 7. He scoops. Says he forgot to side in appropriate hate. W
3-0

R4 UW Stoneblade w/Ancestral Visions
G1- He beats me down to 7 before I'm finally able to deal with Batterskull. He's at 31. I stage my comeback off of a Gempalm (which I may have forgotten to draw off of- DON'T BE LIKE ME! DON'T LOSE TRACK OF THE GAME STATE TO WHERE YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU DREW FROM YOUR CYCLING OR NOT). I wasted him off of White mana and killed his Stoneforge. He didn't have enough mana to return his batterskull and replay it after that. Sharpshooter hit play and I began to swing freely, knowing that every creature that died would put more of his cards in the graveyard. After taking out one of his mishra's factories with sharpshooter the game was mine. W
G2- Another hard fought one. I sided out my Mental Missteps and Stingscourger and 1 Gempalm for 6 Ancient Grudge and Pyrokinesis. I PLayed Lackey. He Swords to Plowshared it. He took control of the game state from there. There was one moment where I didn't go for glory, and it cost me the game. It was late in the game. He had his batterskull online and was beating me down. I cast a Matron. He had like 4 cards in hand and fetch open. I could have gone for TSH to blow up Batterskull, but I had no Goblins left in hand, so if he had a Spell Snare (which he runs) I would be fucked. So i grabbeb a Ringleader, played it, and drew 1 Goblin off of it. Then lost. I should have just gone for it with the TSH. L
G3- Time was called on about the 2nd turn. I felt good about my hand and the board state, though. Draw
3-0-1
Top 8
R5 Merfolk
G1 He beats me down to 7 before I stabilize and win off of 1 big attack where I had Warchief and Piledriver, then Matroned for another Piledriver. The 17 damage from that swing was enough to kill him. Sweet, sweet Pro U. W
G2 I sided out MM for REB. It was another slow game, but my Gempalms helped me take the board position. One play in particular was the turn I cast Stingscourger to bounce his Coralhelm Commander, then in response to Stinger's echo payment i cycled a Gempalm to kill off the replayed Commander. I took the win and the $20 prizemoney. W
4-0-1

"Mental Misstep killed Goblins. Goblins is a bad deck. Goblins with Mental Misstep is even worse."
- Everyone the writes about Magic

"Mountain, Lackey, Go."
- GoboLord (and all of us at some point)

Observations- I'm torn on playing Pyrokinesis against Stoneblade. Killing the Mystic is before it gets online is very important, but so is having card advantage in this MU. Also, considering that the Stoneblade player ran MM, Spell Snare, StP, PtE, and Brainstorm, I definitely shouldn't have sided out my Mental Missteps this match. Mistake.
I realize that I tend to make more mistakes against good players. I'm more likely to forget to draw a card off Gempalm or go for a Ringleader instead of an answer card like TSH. I lost that game either way. I should have just gone for the TSH.

Leyline of the Void- I hate hate hate hate hate this stupid card, but it was in my opening hand literally every single game I sided it in today. So that doesn't suck. But this card is awful trash even though it makes some decks scoop T0. I ran amazingly with it today, but that just means the next time I play with it I'll topdeck it T1 on the draw every time. So it goes.

[ThoSha]

People try this: Remove 2 Siegegang Commanders and 3 Missteps and add 3 Mogg Fanatics + 2 Chieftains. The results will be stunning! No black splash intended.

[cloudshade]

ive not seen a discussion about it already - what do you think about goblin grenade? is it playable in legacy? imho the direct dmg is brilliant.

[cloudshade]

and also, ive always tried to add cards to make colorless dmg cause "protection from red" really can kill us. how about playing Barbarian Ring? ive not enough $ to buy all necessary lands thats prolly why i can play Ring twice. in addition i run 3x Smoldering Spires, made my lackey go through often enough..

[Humphrey]

Goblin Grenade might be good sometimes, but its too narrow and to risky to run it.
Barbarian deals more damage to yourself than to anything else, and the time you reach threshold in Goblins your probably dead anyways.
If youre running your deck in a casual meta, both cards might be ok, but actually this thread is about competitive lists.

[jrw1985]

Goblin Grenade might be good sometimes, but its too narrow and to risky to run it.
Barbarian deals more damage to yourself than to anything else, and the time you reach threshold in Goblins your probably dead anyways.
If youre running your deck in a casual meta, both cards might be ok, but actually this thread is about competitive lists.


Ryan Messick
Winner, 2010 Legacy Championship
View a sample hand of this deck

Main Deck

60 cards

1 Arid Mesa
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Badlands
2 Barbarian Ring
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
21 lands

2 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Instigator
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
32 creatures

4 Aether Vial
3 Warren Weirding
7 other spells

Sideboard
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Warren Weirding
15 sideboard cards

Being a little hasty on your assertion that Barbarian Ring is a bad card, perhaps? I mean, one year ago it was featured in a deck that won a huge tournament (GenCon 2010). If it was unplayable this deck probably couldn't have won a 196 player tournament, right? Also, if you look at this build it is very aggressive, with a high creature count and low land count. Because he runs the 2 Barbarian Rings he doesn't need to run as many removal Goblins, so he's free to pack in goodies like Wort, Kiki-Jiki, Chieftain and Instigator. He doesn't mind taking damage from the rings because he doesn't do much fetching. He doesn't need to fetch because he runs so many duals that he doesn't care about Wasteland, which you can get away with in a Rb build. And because he's running Ring and only 21 land he doesn't use Port, so his which means more of his lands help him produce the mana to cast spells, and make the deck more aggressive overall.

In a world with Mental Misstep this year-old deck might actually have some merrit to it and this might still ber very playable in today's metagame.

[Greenpoe]

Running Hovels instead of fetches is counterproductive when you want threshold.

[cloudshade]

well i can just say what i see when playing with friends: whenever the game went well, i didnt mind paying 1 life for the ring and whenever it went bad (and this usually means many of my goblins went to gyard) i was happy that i was able to deal 2 colorless dmg by sacrificing a land. but true, in combination with too many fedges, ring could become pain.

[BigBopper]

@jrw1985: Congraz, awesome finish on your tournament!!! Always nice to hear Gobbos making some progress out there.
I'm still torn between a Winstigator/Mox/Port-built with 33+ Goblins and a version with 4 MM. I recently thought of splashing and came to a similar list, although I would play another removal MD and one Boartusk Liege in SB. My problem is rather not owning duals (Taiga-Badlands) and theri prize, but I like your list!
Sharpshooter is awesome in current meta, just like warren weirding and tarfire each as a 1 off.
How about playing a 2nd TSH SB instead of one ancient grudge-as tutor target or somewhat?
I don't think Goblin grenate is a good idea: sacrificing a goblin and paying mana to see a MM and only hit for 2...
Barbarian Ring deals damage to you and shortly before you reach theshold it gets wasted away.

[ThoSha]

A list of Things that Mogg Fanatic gets rid off:

Scryb Ranger
Birds of Paradise
Noble Hierarch
Dryad Arbor
Vendillion Clique
Mother of Runes
Dark Confidant
Aven Mindcensor
Grim Lavamancer
Narcomoeba
Bridge from Below
Glistener Elf
Blighted Agent
Ball Lightning
Spark Elemental
Hellspark Elemental
Umezawa's Jitte

Just sayin'.

[lyracian]

A list of Things that Mogg Fanatic gets rid off:

Umezawa's Jitte

Just sayin'.
How does Fanatic get rid of Jitte?

[ThoSha]

Doesn't get rid of jitte, but you can buy time by block/sac.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Warchiefs, just returned from Redcap's Corner in Philadelphia for a 25+ (I'm pretty sure it was 26) man tournament. And since we're introducing ourselves; I'm Mike.

I brought with me the following 75 cards in a R/B list:

Core 26

Flex 12
4 Mental Misstep
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

Manabase 22
4 Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Swamp
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard 15
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Shattering Spree
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Perish

I took 7th or 8th going 3-1-1 into the Top 8. Got knocked out by Burn.
This was my third legacy event and my first time in R/B.
Superstar of the day was Mental Misstep. I highly recommend this card for a third of our flex spots. It's THAT good game 1.

Round 1 Team America 2-0
This was against a friend of mine. Goblins did what it does.

Round 2 Dredge 2-0
Mental misstep pulls it's weight game 1. 2 LotV in hand game 2.

Round 3 Reanimator 1-2
Game 1 was a lot of fun and Wort hit for 1 to take the last point of life.
Let me explain. :laugh: I MM an entomb first turn and put goblins onto the field early. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite makes short work of my progress but because he Exhumed it, I get a Matron back letting me find [/cards]Warren Weirding[/cards] to kill her and resume my board filling. This happened again, the third time I found Wort and snuck through as a 1/1 fear for the last point of damage.
Needless to say he took out the Exhume

- 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
- 1 Aether Vial
- 2 Gempalm Incinerator
+ 4 Leyline of the Void

I draw 2 LotV in my starting 7 and decide to keep.
I start with vial and it ticks up until he plays Show and Tell dropping Elesh Norn. I either drop Wort or Matron into Wort. Vial's at 4 and I play Ringleader which finds me Stingscourger. The Scourger get's FoW'd and I figure my Wort engine will allow me a quick 2-0. Instead the Reanimator player animates my Stingscourger bouncing Wort! This again for 2 or 3 turns and Elesh Norn goes the distance...

Game 3 I didn't mull for hate and kept a fetch, Lackey, Vial, Misstep, SGC, 2 other hand. He landed Jin turn 2 and I never drew the 2nd land to cast Piledriver before having to discard my hand.

Round 4 W/U Stoneblade 1-2
Close games. Adding 2 Pyrokinesis last second before game 3 made the difference. It killed 2 Mutavaults allowing my swarm to hit for lethal.

Round 5 Stoneblade - Draw

Top 8 I am paired with Burn. This is the first Burn deck I've played and I know I made several mistakes. Game 1 I forgot Mental Misstep counters Goblin Guide and I'm on the defensive till he ends it.
Game 2 Lackey sneaks in Seige-Gang Commander and I Port him early and often. Goblins gets 1.
Game 3 I resolved 2 Vials. 1 immediately dies to Smash to Smithereens and the other ticks to 3 before getting destroyed and thrown at my face. He Price of Progresses me twice getting 2 the first time and 5 the next cause I fetched for a mountain. Fireblast ended it.

Immediate regret was not having 3 Red Elemental Blast instead of the Shattering Spree. Very, very happy with Mental Misstep. Game 1 of Dredge was him playing City of Brass and Careful Study. I MM'd it and Wasted his City on my turn.
Also mad props to Wort, Boggart Auntie.

[GoboLord]

Hey Mike,

first of: thanks for the report.
I really like REB in Goblin's SB (for the reasons Jon/jrw gave us). But I doubt that it's a good idea to completely cut artifact hate from your SB. You could consider cutting 1 Spree and maybe 1-2 Pyrokinesis to make room for 2-3 REB.
Best thing to do would probably be G-Splash for Ancient Grudge (instead of Spree), but that's a matter of money nowadays.

[Humphrey]

I had good results with 4 Foothills + Forest and 2 Ports. Taiga gets wasted to often for my taste.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Christian I agree with you entirely and for the 20th am considering bringing the same list

-1 Perish
-1 Shattering Spree
-1 Pyrokinesis
+3 Red Elemental Blast

and I'm not 100% on keeping Goblin Sharpshooter in my 75...
Artifact hate is a necessity as long as Stoneforge Mystic is being played heavily

Also, for those playing K-Grip... A friend told me the only way to use it with success against Hive Mind is to put a creature with an EtB trigger in when they play Show and Tell that way you retain priority and can cast Krosan Grip before they get a pact off. So keep a Matron, Ringleader, or Seige-Gang Commander handy.

[ScatmanX]

Edit: sad panda...

[L10]

Also, for those playing K-Grip... A friend told me the only way to use it with success against Hive Mind is to put a creature with an EtB trigger in when they play Show and Tell that way you retain priority and can cast Krosan Grip before they get a pact off. So keep a Matron, Ringleader, or Seige-Gang Commander handy.
This is actually brilliant. Thanks!

Also, thanks to Ace and jrw for your reports.

Edit:

So the idea is that once Ringleader/Matron/SCG effect triggers, you will get priority. Now, you can in response play a spell. The trick is to use split second to close the stack. So a mono-red route can potentially look like this.
Matron -> Chaos Warp -> Sudden Shock
I am not advocating this. Just a hypothetical.

Here is another hypothetical. If I cast Lightning Bolt, then another Lightning Bolt, and then a Sudden Shock ... does that mean that neither Lightning Bolts can get countered due to split second? I am assuming that I never passed priority. Thanks.

[Ziveeman]

Unfortunately that doesn't work. The active player (the player whose turn it is) maintains priority, so the Hive Mind player can still cast Pacts while the ETB trigger is on the stack. Shame :/

[L10]

So the active player does not pass priority when my creature's ETB ability triggers? Well, that's a shame.

[Ziveeman]

Unfortunately nope. I asked it on MTGS just to double check:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=345882

[Ace/Homebrew]

woops :rolleyes:

[Vandalize]

Unfortunately that doesn't work. The active player (the player whose turn it is) maintains priority, so the Hive Mind player can still cast Pacts while the ETB trigger is on the stack. Shame :/

Yeah buddies, time to pack at least 3 Pyroblast/REB in sideboard and keep up the Rishadan Ports working.

This is my last R/B build, check it out:

Lands [22]
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
4 Mountain
2 Badlands
1 Swamp

Core [26]

Others [12]

4 Mental Misstep/Cabal Therapy
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Warren Weirding
1 Tarfire

Sideboard [15]

3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast
2 Shattering Spree
4 Leyline of the Void

Made some tool-box main deck because it's pretty fine, indeed. When playing with Cabal Therapy, the MD Tarfire should become the second Stingscourger.

[ThoSha]

Mind some innovations?
A few pages ago i mentioned Mogg fanatic and Chieftain being good, but that was for MWS testing.
I went 4-1 in a ~30 people tournament with this list:


//Manabase
5 Mountains
3 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Taiga
2 Chrome Mox

//Core
-2 Siege Gang Commander

//Flex
2 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
4 Mogg Fanatic
SB:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormods Crypt
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Red Elemental Blast

MatchUps:

1st Round vs 5 Color Defense of the Heart Combo: 2-0
This was kinda straightforward for me, it felt like goldfishing.
1st turn Mogg Fanatic followed by 2nd turn Wasteland kinda screwed his Manabase forever. Oh how i love Noble Hierarch/Birds Matchups now.

2nd Round vs UWR Patriot: 1-2
This was rough. Even though i had Mogg Fanatic as a Bonus to help against Grim Lavamancer, this matchup was ultratough. I felt being more on the defense for answering all of HIS threats which came plenty. Lavamancer, Force, Misstep, SFM AND Batterskull are too much for this deck to handle, even postboard. Kinda won 1 game because I had the nuts and he didnt mull a bad hand. In that game tough, i had 2 Mogg Fanatics and a Ringleader online and he had a single EE on 1 which he nuked after 3 swings with the Fanatics and got additional 2 in the face. Ringleader people won the game from there. I have to say tough that i never drew any of my awesome grudges or grips which would come in handy as a topdeck.

3rd Round vs GW Maverick: 2-1
Kinda even Matchup, maybe a little favoured for us. Vial into Fanatic into a 1st turn Runemother is bomby. I take the first game home with swarming. 2nd game he takes it with Batterskull/Jitte/SOFI. Game 3 was interesting: Pyrokinesis on 2 Mirran Crusader would be nuts, but i didnt draw it, so i kind of won it with stalling 2 Mirrans, a 6/6 Knight equipped with a SOFF and a Batterskull with multiple Matrons, Piledrivers and Warchief+Ringleaders bought me the time to find a Sharpshooter and almost clear the whole board in synergy with mogg fanatic. The army takes the win home after. He did make a mistake tough for waiting too long for Jitte equip, then after a long time he equipped it on the Batterskull Token, which was fantastic as I had a Stingscourger to handle both.

4th Round vs Mono White Ascension: 2-0
Well this was easy somehow. His Serra Ascendant never was a must answer, so i rather killed his wall of omens and 3/2 soldiers which showed up for a while. After he gets the martyr combo online and going @40 life, i finally get a target for my Gempalm Incinerator for 6, drawing me a Chieftain. The rest was 3 turns of beatdown. 2nd Game was similar, but i had to trick a early resolved Runemother, which just got outpowered by a 3/3 Warren Instigator hence 2 Lords on the table. Ancient Grudge handled a Jitte and stopped batterskull stuff from happening. 2 Ports were insane too, as he was manascrewed on 2 lands.

5th Round vs Merfolk: 2-0
Well i am not so proud of this, because he was a new player and didnt even have forces. What happened was a first turn lackey who gets missteped, a 2nd turn Silvergill Adept gets fanatic'd on my turn + wasting his mutavault. He was so screwed from there on, only resolving another Lord which gets gempalm incineratored 2 turns later. Easy game.
2nd game was even easier since i boarded 3 Red Elemental Blasts.
The situation became a single Piledriver racing a lone Coralhelm Commander.
The Coralhelm went 4/4 was i had an advantage of early beats and when he went to 4, he realized that he cant Dismember my Piledriver anymore and concedes. Next round i would have gone with a Ringleader and finish the game anyway.




Sorry for being lazy at writing a detailed Report, i just wanted to show on result what this changes DO. Mogg Fanatic was a house all day and got even forced against Patriot's Lavamancer. He was gigantic and is that thing that a Lightning Bolt or Misstep never could be. Synergy with Sharpshooter was fantastic and won against Maverick.

Some notes:
-Sword of Fire and Ice is getting less popular. Good meta for Goblins.

-Tin Street hooligan as 1of is kinda handy these days, and a backup in form of Ancient Grudges and Grips from the board is even better.

-Siege Gang Commander: C'mon guys, i wasn't missing him the whole day. He is simply outdated and Win more. SGC lost me more games in the past 3 months than he won.

-Watten Instigator/2Mox:
Has been pretty decent, nice synergy with Mogg Fanatic in most games and nice with Chieftain/Double Strike also. Eats a Sword here and there but its absolutly worth it.

-Ringleader
Adding my Goblin count to 33 was a house, and a ringleadered Mogg Fanatic can just be the difference between win and lose. Always been happy with seing 2 moggs in my ringleader instead of Missteps or Bolts.

-Mental Misstep
Playing against Misstep is not quite the deal, as you can provoke the blue player by playing a lackey or mogg fanatic to catch the mistep and vial the turn after. I was more scared of Force in the end.

-2 Ports
They have been good for me. Goblins is pretty manahungry and 2 ports+4 wastelands are absolutly reasonable. Never wished for more.

-Sideboard
Awesome Grudge owns Stoneblade.REB owns Merfolk.
Was quite happy with rest too, but i never faced Dredge, Hive Mind or Reanimator that day, so i dunno about the gravestuff.
Might have a decent matchup preboard against dredge now thx to Mogg Fanatic. :D

Now flame me please.

[Vandalize]

I've been having mixed feelings about SGC as well. Still, with your Mox/Instigator build, I'd give at least 1 spot to him.

[GoboLord]

3rd Round vs GW Maverick: 2-1
Kinda even Matchup, maybe a little favoured for us.

[...]

-Ringleader
Adding my Goblin count to 33 was a house, and a ringleadered Mogg Fanatic can just be the difference between win and lose. Always been happy with seing 2 moggs in my ringleader instead of Missteps or Bolts.


First of all: thanks for your report. For me it was detailed enough as it was focused on Mogg Fanatic's performance. Although I agree with you that Fanatic is a viable option I'm not concerned about cutting SGC entirely from the deck. But this is a different story.

While reading your report two question came into my mind (reffering to the quote from here):

1st: You wrote that your impression about Maverick is that it is quite even/kinda favored for Gobs. I always found this one frustrating and nearly impossible to win. Now I was wondering what your strategy is? I couldn't read much from your report on that game, other than Mogg Fanatic being awsome. Then again I run Tarfire on this slot, which is just as good in dealing with Mother and SFM (not with Jitte though, but this has never been problematic to me).
Thus: What do you think are their most threatening cards? How do you navigate your deck around that? What is your overall strategy here?

2nd: About Ringleader, I absolutely agree. Marcello/Scatman once said that there is nothing more solid than having 33 Goblins in your MD. Don't you think Tarfire is better than Mog Fanatic, since it kills one of the most frequently played creatures in legacy: SFM?
I Know that this comparison is kinda odd since those cards do slightly different things. When reading through your report I could just as well replace every "Mogg Fanatic" with "Tarfire" without changing any result.

[Vandalize]

First of all: thanks for your report. For me it was detailed enough as it was focused on Mogg Fanatic's performance. Although I agree with you that Fanatic is a viable option I'm not concerned about cutting SGC entirely from the deck. But this is a different story.

While reading your report two question came into my mind (reffering to the quote from here):

1st: You wrote that your impression about Maverick is that it is quite even/kinda favored for Gobs. I always found this one frustrating and nearly impossible to win. Now I was wondering what your strategy is? I couldn't read much from your report on that game, other than Mogg Fanatic being awsome. Then again I run Tarfire on this slot, which is just as good in dealing with Mother and SFM (not with Jitte though, but this has never been problematic to me).
Thus: What do you think are their most threatening cards? How do you navigate your deck around that? What is your overall strategy here?

2nd: About Ringleader, I absolutely agree. Marcello/Scatman once said that there is nothing more solid than having 33 Goblins in your MD. Don't you think Tarfire is better than Mog Fanatic, since it kills one of the most frequently played creatures in legacy: SFM?
I Know that this comparison is kinda odd since those cards do slightly different things. When reading through your report I could just as well replace every "Mogg Fanatic" with "Tarfire" without changing any result.

Tarfire vs Mogg Fanatic is raw power versus versatility. Mogg Fanatic can attack, pump Gempalm Incinerator and do some tricks with Goblin Sharpshooter. Tarfire is just good at doing it's job.

The way to deal with Maverick isn't very complex. Just kill their Mana Dork (aka Noble Hierarch/Birds/Drayd Arbor) and try to waste their duals in early game. They'll need a little time to recover, while Vials are growing. Post-board it gets a little easier due to Perish and Pyrokinesis.

Stingscourger is also a house in this matchup.

[ThoSha]

First of all: thanks for your report. For me it was detailed enough as it was focused on Mogg Fanatic's performance. Although I agree with you that Fanatic is a viable option I'm not concerned about cutting SGC entirely from the deck. But this is a different story.

While reading your report two question came into my mind (reffering to the quote from here):

1st: You wrote that your impression about Maverick is that it is quite even/kinda favored for Gobs. I always found this one frustrating and nearly impossible to win. Now I was wondering what your strategy is? I couldn't read much from your report on that game, other than Mogg Fanatic being awsome. Then again I run Tarfire on this slot, which is just as good in dealing with Mother and SFM (not with Jitte though, but this has never been problematic to me).
Thus: What do you think are their most threatening cards? How do you navigate your deck around that? What is your overall strategy here?

2nd: About Ringleader, I absolutely agree. Marcello/Scatman once said that there is nothing more solid than having 33 Goblins in your MD. Don't you think Tarfire is better than Mog Fanatic, since it kills one of the most frequently played creatures in legacy: SFM?
I Know that this comparison is kinda odd since those cards do slightly different things. When reading through your report I could just as well replace every "Mogg Fanatic" with "Tarfire" without changing any result.
First towards your questions:
1.) Well you kinda got the point straight from the start.
Mogg Fanatic makes the difference, and i don't agree with you on tarfire doing the same. As we all know Sharpshooter is a house in this matchup, and you can be very sure that you're Mogg Fanatic stays the entire matchup if it doesnt have targets to shoot. In my report i wrote about stalling the game trough some Mirran Crusaders and Knight+Batterskull, which would have been very frightening with a regular Goblin list at the moment. The point that turned the game in my favour, getting me on a winning position was the shear combination of Mogg Fanatic(which i think a 4of is absolutely viable) and Sharpshooter, which made the Maverick player concede before i finished tapping all of my goblins. He gave some value to a topdecked vial at 1 too. It comes like a giant kick in the butt for the opponent if you know how to play this combo.
The point why i choose Mogg Fanatic over Tarfire is the following: Tarfire might get countered by an otherwise useless Misstep, has no synergy with vial and isnt far as devasting as an early Mogg Fanatic which sticks trough the game. Imagine the Chieftain pumps, the Gempalm incinerator which can take the Knight out of the game or negating the lifegain from Batterskull. Tarfire does nothing like that.

For the most threatening cards we might all agree that this would be Knight of the Reliquary, Mirran Crusader and Batterskull. SFM of course can be a threat if it fetches a Jitte or SOFI too. Cards like Runemother or manlands can be a pain if not dealt with immediatly, as they kind of give your opponent an unfair advantage trough the game. In my 2nd game I had no doubt about pyrokin' his 1st turn runemother even with relevant pitch. The most important thing is that you have more men on the field than him and filling different tasks to begin with. Installing an early Warchief or Chieftain rather than utility like Matron or Ringleader or focus on outtempoing him with Mogg Fanatic/Mana denial. As soon as there is a Knight on the table you can cut the denial and need to focus on overwhelming him with lots of Goblins before the Knight gets too huge and/or equipped while other friends are joining him.

2.) I think i answered the question about Tarfire enough, even tough i would like the option of fetching it. But so far i am happy with the bodies and i dont need additional removal, as fetching Stingscourger, Tin street or just Gempalm does enough here. I would rather have a single Fodder Launch when splashing black as it acts as a Dismember and Goblin Grenade to the dome. This card is very understated i think, but its far better
than Tarfire.

After all i think Goblins became even better in the current metagame, people just do it wrong.
I like perish as a sideboard option but it dont think Warren Weirding and Perish justify a black splash. You never wanna be wasted yourself and green is the far better color now.

[ScatmanX]

2nd: About Ringleader, I absolutely agree. Marcello/Scatman once said that there is nothing more solid than having 33 Goblins in your MD. Don't you think Tarfire is better than Mog Fanatic, since it kills one of the most frequently played creatures in legacy: SFM?
The 1st thing I'd do with that list is swapping Fanatics for Tartfire. I'm testing both right now, and want to figure out which one suits me more. I'm more on the side of Tarfire, but want to know how many times attacking and blocking with Fanatic is worth more thant the extra point of damage, that can kill Stoneforge and ALL Merfolk lords...


The point why i choose Mogg Fanatic over Tarfire is the following: Tarfire might get countered by an otherwise useless Misstep, has no synergy with vial and isnt far as devasting as an early Mogg Fanatic which sticks trough the game. Imagine the Chieftain pumps, the Gempalm incinerator which can take the Knight out of the game or negating the lifegain from Batterskull. Tarfire does nothing like that.
Fanatic is countered by Misstep too, since Vial is almos never @1.
Gempalm + Incinerator does the exact same dmg as Tarfire (2).
Fanatic + Sharpshooter does the same dmg as Tarfire + Sharpshooter (3).
Tarfire does negate Batterskull, by killing the Stoneforge. We just can't let them reach 5 mana, ad swing. Not that hard.
I can agree on the Chieftain thing though. In my testing I want to figure out how many times it is relevant.

Nevertheless, I really appreciated your report. Thanks for that.

[magicmerl]

I've found Mental Misstep to be absolutely terrible to chain into with ringleader.

Might it be better to be more explosive by jumping straight to Warren Instigator off Chrome Mox? I think that Kiki Jiki and Wort are necessary as additional sources of card advantage to offset the disadvantage of Chrome Mox and the increased velocity that Instigator brings to the deck (your hand depletes faster).

//Lands [22-24]
2 Chrome Mox
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
5 Mountain

//Core [26]:
- 1 Siege-Gang Commander

//Others [10-12]:
3 Warren Instigator
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirrorbreaker
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding

Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Shattering Spree

Some questions: How many red sources do we need? Counting Mox as a red source I have 16 red and 9 black sources.

[ThoSha]

The 1st thing I'd do with that list is swapping Fanatics for Tartfire. I'm testing both right now, and want to figure out which one suits me more. I'm more on the side of Tarfire, but want to know how many times attacking and blocking with Fanatic is worth more thant the extra point of damage, that can kill Stoneforge and ALL Merfolk lords...


Fanatic is countered by Misstep too, since Vial is almos never @1.
Gempalm + Incinerator does the exact same dmg as Tarfire (2).
Fanatic + Sharpshooter does the same dmg as Tarfire + Sharpshooter (3).
Tarfire does negate Batterskull, by killing the Stoneforge. We just can't let them reach 5 mana, ad swing. Not that hard.
I can agree on the Chieftain thing though. In my testing I want to figure out how many times it is relevant.

Nevertheless, I really appreciated your report. Thanks for that.

I can understand that you are sceptical about Mogg Fanatic since he isn't cool anymore since M10 changed him. But i dont really get your points here.
What do you mean with Gempalm+Incinerator does the exact damage as Tarfire? My Gempalms go from 1 to 7 in an average game. Mogg Fanatic+Sharpshooter lets you get a nasty jitte'd Double Striker, a Mishra, Merfolk lords, a Mutavault or anything X/3 before blockers are declared or you can also kill Stoneforge Mystic with that, no problem.
About Batterskull i wouldn't worry too much because we have sideboard hate anyway. I dont even mind too much about equipment in general, since we can just get rid of the bodies in many situations.

So in summary for Tarfire we have:
+Fetchable
+2dmg Pinpoint removal
+Synergy with Ringleader

For Mogg Fanatic:
+Combat Tricks
+Synergy with Sharpshooter, Ringleader, Piledriver, Gempalm Incinerator, Chieftain, Aether Vial
+Fetchable
+an addional Body&Clock
+1dmg Pinpoint removal

For me its not quite possible to convince me for Tarfire in this spot.
Dont feed the Goyf. :P

[Yuri8]

So I inspired by Tosha and took 1st place in little 13 man tournament
4*wasteland
4*wooded foothills
4*Scalding tarn
3*Rishadan Port
2*Taiga
5*Mountain

25 core
-1*Siege-Gang Commander

4*Gemapl
3*Mogg Fanatic
2*Goblin Chieftain
1*Stingscourger
1*Tinstreet Hooligan
1*Goblin Sharpshooter
1*Goblin Pyromancer
SB:
3*Pyroblast
1*Ancient Grudge
3*Krosan Grip
4*Pyrokinesis
4*Leyline of the Void

1.Dredge 2-0
2.Merfolk 2-1
3.Merfolk 1-2
4.BG rock 2-1
top4
UW control(almost standart deck, only wastelands, counterspells and acenstrall visions) 2-1
Merfolk(guy from third round) 1-0 we splited so we played only one

All in all fanatics were good and keep them for another tournament...

[Ace/Homebrew]

I like perish as a sideboard option but it dont think Warren Weirding and Perish justify a black splash. You never wanna be wasted yourself and green is the far better color now.

I disagree with you here. Sometimes you just need WW.
You may be right about R/G splash though.
Goblins will always be a red deck. Amon Amarth said it perfectly.


you aren't a true polychromatic deck. You're only playing 2 Taiga and 2 Badlands and a bunch of fetches. Just fetch for Mountains when appropriate.

I use 1 swamp along with 4 Bloodstained Mire and 2 Badlands because I also can't stand having my lands destroyed.


Vandalize, I like your list. No love for Wort, Boggart Auntie though? Gotta say that I haven't been disappointed to see her in my hand yet.
In what meta would you run Cabal Therapy over Mental Misstep. I have my playset and would love to use them but I doubt my ability to significantly neuter an opponent's hand at my current level of experience against such a wide array of deck types...

I'm curious about Siege-Gang Commander falling out of favor amongst some. Don't think I'll ever understand that. The reason people cringe when they hear "Mountain, Lackey, Go" is because of SGC! Playing him turn 4 cause of Goblin Warchief or swinging for 11 cause of Goblin Chieftain is a lot better than having a 3rd or 4th Mogg Fanatic. You can even use him to make your Fanatic sac for 2 damage instead of 1 :tongue:

Yuri, congrats!
What was your experience with Goblin Pyromancer? He seems terrible. I'd be interested to hear how he helped you.

[Amon Amarth]

I'm a huge fan of Wort. I run one in my SB or MD of R/b Goblins. It is such a bomb, especially against Landstill-esque control decks. Recurring pretty much anything gives you some pretty insane inevitability and it's nuts against against all the removal light decks. Oh, hi, Warren Weirding number 5 or was it 6...? LOL YES IM CHEATING! Or even recurring Mogg War-Marshall is awesome.

Currently I'm testing out a 2nd Sharpshooter main. Sharpshooter is insane versus midrange decks. Against some decks it's a hard lock, a 1-sided Goblin-y Wrath of God. I actually don't think I've ever played with more than 1 Sharpshooter ever in Legacy.

I don't think I would ever run less than 2 Siege-Gang Commanders. He is just too good late game and is an out versus things like Moat or Ensnaring Bridge. And he throws Goblins at people. What a boss.

Oh, and he is "OK" to drop off a Lackey.

[Yuri8]

Pyromancer is overrun on legs, he is tutorable and very situational yet he gave one or two victories yesterday...

[jrw1985]

A guy playing in a SCG Open today was playing a Rb goblin deck without Warchief and with Chieftains instead and WInstigators AND Tarfires. It raped NO RUG. I get the no Warcheif move too. If you're running so many RR cc dudes having the 1cc reduction isn't that amazing. And when you're running Winstigator you don't need to cast as many bodies anyway, so you're free to do without Warchief.

Cool.

[ScatmanX]

A guy playing in a SCG Open today was playing a Rb goblin deck without Warchief and with Chieftains instead and WInstigators AND Tarfires. It raped NO RUG. I get the no Warcheif move too. If you're running so many RR cc dudes having the 1cc reduction isn't that amazing. And when you're running Winstigator you don't need to cast as many bodies anyway, so you're free to do without Warchief.

Cool.
Where can we find that?

[ThoSha]

I got another tournament report coming up.
Finished 4-1 with Goblins in a 22 tournament today.

List is the same as before:
//Manabase
5 Mountains
3 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Taiga
2 Chrome Mox

//Core
-2 Siege Gang Commander

//Flex
2 Goblin Chieftain
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
4 Mogg Fanatic

SB:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormods Crypt
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Red Elemental Blast

Round 1: Vs UW Landstill 2-1
Im too tired to go into details, but it was a classic landstill list without Stoneforge.
He played 8 manlands in form of Factory, Faerie Conclave and Celestial Colonnade. I simply won both games because i had more threats than he had counters, nothing more to add. G2 he fatesealed me with Jace and wrathed pretty good. Third game same as game 1. I sided in some REBs.

1-0

Round 2: Vs Merfolk 2-0
I win the dice and lead with a Mogg Fanatic. He starts with cursecatcher.
2nd turn i play a topdecked vial and a 2nd Mogg. Shooting at cursecatcher and swing for 1. 2nd turn he goes with mutavault and Silvergill. My turn i waste his Mutavault and assassinate his Adept. Next turn he is screwed on mana which i could abouse to overrun him the next turns.
Sided in Pyrokinesis, REB, Sharpshooter, sided out Lackeys, tin street and stingscourger.
The second game he mulled to 5, gave me 2 cursecatcher and then conceded because of manascrew again.

2-0

Round 3: Vs GW Maverick 2-0
First game he starts with GSZ into Dryad Arbor which i Fanatic' out of vial.
2nd turn tarmogoyf, and I go for Winstigator.
Knight follows up and on my side Matron and Piledriver. Goyf stays kinda small and is no real trouble and the Knight stays in my Gempalm range, so i burn him apart. He plays a Sylvan Library and finds nothing until i overrun him.

Sided in some Pyrokinesis, 1 Crypt and Sharpshooter ofc.
Out: lackeys.

Game 2 he starts with Runemother which i Knesis' with Knesis pitch.
I start with vial again+Crypt and ride my curve to Ringleader while he beats me up with a 3/4 Goyf. Another Goyf + Scryb Ranger.
Ringleader finds me lots of answers like Sharpshooter, Warchief and Gempalm incinerator. My field is getting bigger so i start sharpshooting his Scryb Ranger and Gempalm his one Goyf. He plays a Maze of Ith. I dont find a Wasteland and keep building up with Matrons, Ringleaders and a Piledriver. I draw Port and go for alpha strike. Crypt stayed until the end of the game, but he didnt draw Knight or Terravore. Fine with me.

3-0

Round 4: Punishing Patriot 1-2
This matchup was devastating but since we were the only 2 players unbeaten so far i couldnt dodge this one.
Game 1 i start with Fanatic while he mulls to 5. Fanatic goes a long way until he finds a Stoneforge mystic in the lategame while countering all my other threats. Mystic finds Batterskull, i play a 2nd Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator finds Mystic, lol. He hardcasts his Batterskull next turn and i have Tin street hooligan and Stingscourger left to handle this. Piledriver joins the fun and i finish him.

In: 3 Ancient Grudge and 3 Surgical Extractions for Punishing fire(i know that was fail, but i was tired..), out lackeys and winstigators
Game 2 it looked kind of the other way. He starts with a T1 Lavamancer, i try to cast a Fanatic which he forces. Lavamancer gets followed up by Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire(gnah..) and SFM+Skull. Oh wait and there was also jace. gg

Third Round i keep a kinda odd hand with 3 lands, Chrome Mox, Matron, Ringleader, Surgical Extraction.
In short this was happening: T2 SFM finding Batterskull, no punishing fires but Lavamancer again + a friendly Vendillion Clique who took my Ringleader and let me draw a shitty Taiga. I drew like land, land, chrome, land, aether vial. Thx deck.

3-1

Round 5: Vs Deadguy Ale 2-0
First game he started with Runemother, and lucky me drew a Mogg Fanatic.
I kinda have this opening pretty often. But well, he follows up with Aether Vial, so do I and waste his only Scrubland. He lays a fetch and does nothing. I put a chrome mox and a Warchief into play. He fetches another Basic and Vindicates my vial, end of Turn bob showed up. I topdeck another Fanatic like a Champ and go with Warchief and shooting bob. He follows up with Vampire Nighthawk. I go for Matron into Ringleader and pass my turn. Nighthawk stalls around. Next turn Ringleader gets online giving me 4 fine men to work with(i think that one was Warchief, Piley, Gempalm and Ringleader). I burn his Nighthawk with Gempalm, he plays a Stillmoon Cavalier. Next Ringleader brought me another full set of goblins including 2 Mogg Fanatics. He was pretty pissed there, but who wouldn't.

I sided in 2 Pyrokinesis and sharpshooter, out 3 lackeys.
Game 2 he has a solid start with a vial followed up by SFM next turn.
I started with Montain, Lackey, go.
He fetches batterskull and i throw a pyrokinesis in SFMs face. Lackey connects and brings a Chieftain, which eats a Swords to Plowshares next turn.
His plan was to achieve 5 mana for hardcasting batterskull which i fucked up nicely with 2 wastelands. He was sticking at 4 lands and a fetch and did just random stuff like bringing a jitte, next turn vindicates my piledriver etc.
I simply won because of threat density and never saw a Batterskull at all.
After the game I asked him why he never played the batterskull, and he said his manabase was all fetches except of 6 lands from which i wasted 2, so it was impossible to get batterskull online. I lol'ed and got my Misty Rainforest as a price for my efforts.

4-1


Too lazy for random notes now, but Mogg Fanatic, Tin street Hooligan and Stingscourger were awesome. Ancient Grudge too, but we know that by now.

[GoboLord]

Hey fellow Warchiefs,

after 3 "big" tournaments (~70 players, ~90 players and ~180 players) with the deck lately I have drawn conclusions which I want to share with you. I have been observing the deck's performance carefully in playtesting and on tournaments and I can say that I have covered every deck of the gauntlet today. Here we go:

Vial Goblins frequently lose game 1 if your opponent's opening handisn't totally screwed. That's because most decks, as they are now, are very well prepared for Goblins. That's not necessarily because they actually mind Goblins when they are building the deck (in fact: Goblins don't play anymore role in most metas), but the maindeck strategies of most decks are simply that much stronger than ours. Right now we are in the middle of doing what we did for the past 12 month: tuning our deck (i.e. the flex slots) to compete in the meta. While other decks don't even have specific hate dedicated to Goblins (like blue elemental blast, Jitte, Jitte and E. Plague) in their 75, we face serious problems with building our SB. Oftentimes I want to have a 30-cards-board to be properly prepared for the meta.
As our deck is designed now I don't see Goblins competing in the meta. Many decks run cards that have such an huge impact on the game that they can win the game right on the spot. In addition those cards are cheap in manacosts and easy to "spalsh" since they don't need the slightest synergy with the rest of the deck. I'm talking about Stoneforge Mystic, Tarmogoyf, Jace 2.0, Dark Confidant and Vendillion Clique. Goblins are lacking those cards. Goblins have always been profiting from synergies. Those synergies are way too time- and manaconsuming compared with what other decks have. This comes down to: Goblins is lacking cheap and gamebreaking cards. Meaning: cards that are "unfair" (as they say).
I am (after over 4 years of playing the deck) for the first time absolutely sure that this is not the right time to play the deck. In my oppinion there are only few possible scenarios for the deck in the future:

(1) design the deck in a way that it is the absolute "anti-meta" deck. Meaning: It must be able to reliably defeat "modern" strategies. This must for sure mean that we need to throw away the whole "core-cards" concept because it is not strong enough to serve that purpose. A little more poethical: we must become a total "answer"-deck, cause our time being the "question" is over.

(2) add the cards named above to our deck. Possible examples would be: Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic and Tarmogoyf. This would (of course) mean that we have to drop all those Goblin-cards that rely on the "synergy-factor" too much (like Ringleader, Piledriver and Gempalm Incinerator).

(3) design the deck with a manacurve ending at cc3. Nobody wants such manaintense cards as Ringleader, Wort and Siege.Gang Commander if cheating them into play is possible in only 30% of all games. Then again we face the problems that our Goblins at cc1-3 are very weak on power and toughness. This could imply that we are better of with following a merfolk-like strategy with many lord-effects.

However, these are my thoughts on the deck. Since I simply don't want to go any of the 3 ways mentioned above I will drop the deck for a while now. I wish you guys fun with the deck and I am looking forward to see it's development.

[ThoSha]

Hey fellow Warchiefs,

after 3 "big" tournaments (~70 players, ~90 players and ~180 players) with the deck lately I have drawn conclusions which I want to share with you. I have been observing the deck's performance carefully in playtesting and on tournaments and I can say that I have covered every deck of the gauntlet today. Here we go:

Vial Goblins frequently lose game 1 if your opponent's opening handisn't totally screwed. That's because most decks, as they are now, are very well prepared for Goblins. That's not necessarily because they actually mind Goblins when they are building the deck (in fact: Goblins don't play anymore role in most metas), but the maindeck strategies of most decks are simply that much stronger than ours. Right now we are in the middle of doing what we did for the past 12 month: tuning our deck (i.e. the flex slots) to compete in the meta. While other decks don't even have specific hate dedicated to Goblins (like blue elemental blast, Jitte, Jitte and E. Plague) in their 75, we face serious problems with building our SB. Oftentimes I want to have a 30-cards-board to be properly prepared for the meta.
As our deck is designed now I don't see Goblins competing in the meta. Many decks run cards that have such an huge impact on the game that they can win the game right on the spot. In addition those cards are cheap in manacosts and easy to "spalsh" since they don't need the slightest synergy with the rest of the deck. I'm talking about Stoneforge Mystic, Tarmogoyf, Jace 2.0, Dark Confidant and Vendillion Clique. Goblins are lacking those cards. Goblins have always been profiting from synergies. Those synergies are way too time- and manaconsuming compared with what other decks have. This comes down to: Goblins is lacking cheap and gamebreaking cards. Meaning: cards that are "unfair" (as they say).
I am (after over 4 years of playing the deck) for the first time absolutely sure that this is not the right time to play the deck. In my oppinion there are only few possible scenarios for the deck in the future:

(1) design the deck in a way that it is the absolute "anti-meta" deck. Meaning: It must be able to reliably defeat "modern" strategies. This must for sure mean that we need to throw away the whole "core-cards" concept because it is not strong enough to serve that purpose. A little more poethical: we must become a total "answer"-deck, cause our time being the "question" is over.

(2) add the cards named above to our deck. Possible examples would be: Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic and Tarmogoyf. This would (of course) mean that we have to drop all those Goblin-cards that rely on the "synergy-factor" too much (like Ringleader, Piledriver and Gempalm Incinerator).

(3) design the deck with a manacurve ending at cc3. Nobody wants such manaintense cards as Ringleader, Wort and Siege.Gang Commander if cheating them into play is possible in only 30% of all games. Then again we face the problems that our Goblins at cc1-3 are very weak on power and toughness. This could imply that we are better of with following a merfolk-like strategy with many lord-effects.

However, these are my thoughts on the deck. Since I simply don't want to go any of the 3 ways mentioned above I will drop the deck for a while now. I wish you guys fun with the deck and I am looking forward to see it's development.
Even tough i recently had great success with my own version of the deck I agree completly with your post. I myself was wondering if a Grim Lavamancer would be great in Sideboard against SFMs, but dropped it because of the synergy factor. The main problem the deck has is equally its biggest strength, the synergy. Add a part and have nothing, add many parts and overrun anything. I saw myself struggling alot after having 2 lords StPed or countered while a big goofy is standing in front of me that functions just like that.
And thanks for posting the idea of dropping the whole core thing, since its a big bunch of bullsh**. Some people even considered that i am an alcoholic for dropping 2 Siege Gang Commanders for more deck consistency. Too bad those guys performed just bad theirself for following an old and outdated construct here. Bringing Mogg Fanatic back was a huge strike against the meta, but i agree that the deck cant be finished yet. I also agree on Vendillion Clique being a pain, since the only thing you dont want is getting your alpha strike fucked up by a blue discard spell.. thats just grose. If anyone would like to share ideas about a new "core" concept, i am in to argue over that.

So my first guess as said would be Grim Lavamancer in the sideboard, who is with me on that?

[jrw1985]

E tu, GoboLord? Abdicating the throne? Leaving us Sourcers without a Goblin King? You'll be back. But before you go, I have a few bones to pick with you about your latest post.


Vial Goblins frequently lose game 1 if your opponent's opening handisn't totally screwed.

I thought this remark was awfully presumptuous, so I looked through my tournament results from the last month and found the following: Of the 25 matches I've played with a 4 Mental Misstep maindeck build...

Overall Record
16-8-1. 66% win rate.

Matches where I've lost G1
11/25 44%

Matches I've lost when I also lost G1
6/11 55%

I'm winning G1 56% of the time. When I lose G1 (44% of the time) I still win the match 45% of the time. Now these results aren't from huge tournaments, but the store I play at is a very competitive environment with many very serious players, so I consider all my wins well earned.

Basically, I don't agree that Goblins can only win G1 if your opponent is screwed. I wouldn't be winning G1 56% of the time if that was the case. And when I do lose G1 I manage to win the next two games 45% of the time, so Goblins is still game post-board.


I am (after over 4 years of playing the deck) for the first time absolutely sure that this is not the right time to play the deck. In my oppinion there are only few possible scenarios for the deck in the future:

(1) design the deck in a way that it is the absolute "anti-meta" deck. Meaning: It must be able to reliably defeat "modern" strategies. This must for sure mean that we need to throw away the whole "core-cards" concept because it is not strong enough to serve that purpose. A little more poethical: we must become a total "answer"-deck, cause our time being the "question" is over.

I agree with you that Goblins is no longer a "question" deck that needs solving because MM is clearly a great solution to our 1-drop "questions". But just because it's no longer a Question doesn't mean it has to become an Answer. When I read others' tournament reports on Goblins I often see game desciptions that go "Goblins does what it does and I get there". This is the basis of the deck. Those Core cards you talked about are the powerhouses they are specifically because they allow the cheating/card-advantage engines to run. And even though players know that MMing a Vial or Swordsing a Lackey is a good play that doesn't mean the deck is unplayable anymore. Goblins is still a threat against Zoo, Bant, NO RUG, Team America and whatnot. It can still beat control pretty easily. Stoneblade is rough, but winnable. The only decks it is really weak to are combo still, but aside from Hive Mind combo is leaving the format.


(2) add the cards named above to our deck. Possible examples would be: Grim Lavamancer, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic and Tarmogoyf. This would (of course) mean that we have to drop all those Goblin-cards that rely on the "synergy-factor" too much (like Ringleader, Piledriver and Gempalm Incinerator).

Clearly, this isn't the solution. We're not Merfolk. Our creatures have actual synergies aside from islandwalk and pumps. It's true that those 4 cards represent the best creatures in the format, but they won't fit in Goblins. The sad fact is that if we want better creatures, WotC has to print them.


(3) design the deck with a manacurve ending at cc3. Nobody wants such manaintense cards as Ringleader, Wort and Siege.Gang Commander if cheating them into play is possible in only 30% of all games. Then again we face the problems that our Goblins at cc1-3 are very weak on power and toughness. This could imply that we are better of with following a merfolk-like strategy with many lord-effects.

However, these are my thoughts on the deck. Since I simply don't want to go any of the 3 ways mentioned above I will drop the deck for a while now. I wish you guys fun with the deck and I am looking forward to see it's development.

Now you know that's not going to happen. The power of the Vial comes from activating for Matron followed by activating for Ringleader. The Card Advantage brought by Ringleader is what wins late games. Having Lords doesn't matter because our lords are too expensive, and giving everything +1/+1 is only really good when they have islandwalk also.

I Goblins the best deck? No. Does it have the potential to be the Best Deck? No. But it works. It's fun. And you can totally win with it on any given day. And that's why I've always enjoyed it.

[GoboLord]

About winning percentages: I'm not making things up here. Here are my statistics (from notes of 2 tournaments):

Number of matches (b-o-3): 13
Number of games: 31
Lost games in total: 20/31

Lost pre-board: 10/13
Lost matches when I lost G1: 9/10

However, I didn't play Mental Misstep in my maindeck yet. This might be "future-option#4": play jrw/Jon's decklists - probably the most satisfying option.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I'm gonna go with Jon on this one. Christian, you have 8 times as much experience with this deck as me and I do not doubt what you say but my time with Goblins has been overwhelmingly positive. So has Thosha and Yuri. It may just be that Goblins is better as a sleeper in a small tournament now. No one plans a sideboard with you in mind and half the people just can't pilot their deck as well as a well practiced Goblin player.

I am actually more confidant in game 1 than in any other game in a match. Having 4 Mental Misstep has perfect synergy with our mana denial. Their hand won't be kept unless it has a turn 1 play or answer and 2 lands (at least that's what I look for). Keeping a hand with MM and Wasteland/Port typically keeps them behind the entire game. MM is sometimes a dead card, but when it's good it's great.

And I don't think your time with Goblins is done. You're screenname is GoboLord for Christ's sake. Now you just aren't exclusively a Goblins player.

[Hof]

This is great. Time for some real discussion about the viability of Goblins in the face of the modern bomb creatures and MM. I feel that Lackey, Instigator, Piledriver, Matron, and Ringleader are still broken (enough) to be competitive, but I am ready to question everything else about the deck, including Vial.

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that another 'tribal synergy' Vial deck, Merfolk, also seems to be on a decline in power (and this in turn makes Goblins even weaker).

[Humphrey]

I played the following list on the Germany National Championship and I was completely stomped :(

2 Rishadan Port
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 AEther Vial
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Warren Weirding
1 Badlands
4 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan

M1 Bant 0-2:
G1 I start with Vial, he forces. Then Hierarch - NO - Prog.
G2 I start with Vial, he forces. Then Hierarch - NO - Prog. At least I had WW on the hand, but he fetches for Arbor.
0-1

M2 Belcher 0-2:
He starts, plays 12 Tokens. GG
I start, in his Turn he comboes into Belcher.
0-2

M3 GW Maverick 1-2:
I dont remember exactly what happens. First game he spams the board with Thrun, Knights, Mother and Batterskull. 2nd game i can overwhelm him, thanks to removal. G3 I lost against Thrun with Batterskull.

M4 Merfolk 0-2
Basically in both games he can counter my stuff and kill me with Commander who flys over my lonely Piledriver.

M5 2-1 UW Landstill
First game took 30mins, because I have some dudes + SGC, chumping his Batterskull and sac. Eventually he plays Jace. 2and3 are quick games, overwhelming him with Piledrivers and tapping his Mishras.
1-4

M6 I dont remember the matchup, but I won.
2-4

The conclusion I drew is the same as Gobolords. This deck plays to fair compared to the I-Win Button Cards the other decks are running. Until the meta changes back to heavy merfolk or Recruiter gets unbanned, Ill dismiss the deck.

[Pinoy Goblin]

I played my rbg list in the Philippine Legacy Open (7rounds) with a 5-2 record and finished 15th out of 90 plus players. Here's my list:

4 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
2 Badlands

4 AEther Vial
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Mogwar Marshall
2 Warren Weirding
1 Tin Street hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpsooter

SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 LOTV
SB: 3 COTV
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Extirpate

I beat Merfolk, NO Rug. UW Control, Maverick, High Tide and lost to Equipped based soul sister and another NO Rug.

Conclusion: I remember only 2 players piloting gobs in this event, I think with the meta here in our country GOBLINS is still a viable deck. Yes as of now we dont have the IT CARD but with good sideboarding and preparation to your meta we can still be a force to reckon with. Most of my matches are game 3 deciders that I won because of my right sideboarding :wink:.

[ScatmanX]

I really don't know what to think right now... maybe if I get to play a tournament with goblins again, but it might take a while... Maybe GBLord is right, and some kind of "revolution" is called for the deck to compete in the meta...

[jrw1985]

I thought I would reiterate the my data so it's hopefully easier to read. Data is from 6 tournaments, 20 to 60 players per tournament. All tournaments were played with a Rgb Goblins list with 4 maindeck Mental Misstep.

Matches Played
25

Match Results
16-8-1

Match Win Percentage
64%

Games Played
65

Game Results
39-25-1

Game Win Percentage
60%

Tournaments Played
6

Tournament Top-8s
3

Top 8 Percentage
50%

I'm not sugar-coating things to make my data seem better or anything. The data includes one of the worst nights of Magic I've ever played (when I went 0-2 in matches, 0-4 in games). And I'm not just picking up easy wins against noobs either. My local gaming store has tons of great players, several of which write for StarCityGames and make regular appearances at big tourneys. So it's a serious field, even in small events.

It looks like Goblin decks that haven't adopted Mental Misstep are being crushed by it. It's a fight fire with fire scenario here, guys. Goblins is not like Zoo. It can't win off of redundancy. Goblins needs 1-drops to hit play in order to utilize its card advantage engines and mana-disruption. Therefor it needs Mental Misstep to force Vials and Lackeys onto the battlefield through discard, spot removal, and yes, opposing Mental Missteps.

It seems obvious from Christian's data that lacking Mental Misstep really hampers a Goblin-pilot's ability to put a gameplan together. GoboLord said he lost G1 in 10 of the last 13 matches he played (77%)! I've only lost G1 in 11 of the past 25 matches I've played (44%). In matches where he lost G1, GoboLord lost the match 90% of the time. In matches where I've lost G1, I've lost the whole match 55% of the time. I think this data speaks for itself. Playing Mental Misstep helps you win G1 much much more frequently, and it also brings the remaining games in the match must closer to even. It seems that not running Mental Misstep leads to a rout in the match.

MM increases your chances of winning G1 AND increases your chances of winning the match. I'm making this assertion strongly. Mental Misstep belongs in Goblins from here on out. Mental Misstep makes goblins a better deck. I feel like I'm the only player on The Source to really try out a MM-Goblin build, so I'm probably the most well-versed MM player in the goblin forum. I wasn't sold at first, but the more I've played it the more enamored of the card I've become. It fits perfectly into the Goblins plan of landing a game-breaking 1-drop, and as a free spell it allows you to exploit your Manadenial package.

Before you abandon Goblins forever I recommend that you try out the Missteps. The full playset. You'll see how badly you've been missing them in your opening hand G1. You didn't even realize how fun it would be to counter a T1 Brainstorm or Dark Ritual. Mental Misstep is also extremely easy to play because it really works best on the first turn. Whether you're on the draw or play, MM helps you either slow your opponent or protect your 1-drop.

I recall one play against Reanimator where MM was really useful. I was on the draw. He played Island, go. I cast Lackey. He Brainstormed in response. I MMed the Bstorm because 1) I didn't want him digging for a Force and 2) I didn't want him developing his hand and 3) he might not play another 1-drop this game. He wound up MMing MY MM, so when Brainstorm resolved he had to Force my Lackey. Now, I lost my 1-drop and he resolved his, but that chain of events was a 2 for 4 in my favor (Lackey/MM traded for Brainstorm/MM/Force/Ucard). I lost that game, but including MM meant I forced my opponent to play differently, and maybe bought myself a turn or two to get back in it.

So, I beseech you, the next time you pick up a Goblin deck throw 4 Mental Misstep in there maindeck. you can always side them out for Game2.

As I've said before, Goblins isn't the best deck in the format. And it's not going to be until some new, overpowered/underpriced Goblins get printed. But it's still the deck that I enjoy the most. When I play Goblins I see how the game needs to progress much more clearly than when I pick up other decks. It's a good fit for me. It can wins games, and I can win with it, and that's what's ultimately most important in a game like Magic.

[Annatar]

The reanimator scenario seems kind of odd, since it looks like a misplay to me. If he had a MM in hand why didn't he just counter the lackey instead of trying to protect Brainstrom with it? In that scenario it would have been a 2 for 2, not 2 for 4. Losing a brainstorm is less debilitating then losing a lackey isn't it?

That aside, MM is good for the deck (at least until they ban it). I'm not sold on 4 just yet but I'm eager to try it out. It's either that or it's back to sleeving up Stoneforge Mystics again which is really a desperate last resort believe you me.

On the Tarfire issue, what would you say is the optimal removal split at this point? I'm currently considering 3 (really fond of that number when testing new cards). Is that too much or not enough?

[Humphrey]

Well I played the full playset, I dont think that hurts. I recommend at least 3, because you want to kill 1-drops and SFM asap.

Im not sold on MM, its good on the opening hand, but later it plain sucks and its not useful in every matchup. It wouldnt have helped me in any of the matchups I had on Friday (Tarfire did the same) and I didnt met any opposing MM too. The best think Ive found with MM is the easy sideboarding :frown:

[magicmerl]

SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan


The conclusion I drew is the same as Gobolords. This deck plays to fair compared to the I-Win Button Cards the other decks are running. Until the meta changes back to heavy merfolk or Recruiter gets unbanned, Ill dismiss the deck.

Isn't the problem that you aren't prepared vs the 'I win' cards that we are facing off against? Progenitus needs Perish. Emrakul needs Stingscourger. Charbelcher needs Mental Misstep. Your sideboard contains none of those cards, so it's not surprising to me that you would struggle vs them.

[Humphrey]

Virtues Ruin does the same to Progenitus as Perish. You only need to draw it and resolve it..
Stingscourger is main.
MM stops exactly 2 cards in Belcher. Tinder Wall and Rite of Flame. That might delay the kill one turn.

[jrw1985]

The reanimator scenario seems kind of odd, since it looks like a misplay to me. If he had a MM in hand why didn't he just counter the lackey instead of trying to protect Brainstrom with it? In that scenario it would have been a 2 for 2, not 2 for 4. Losing a brainstorm is less debilitating then losing a lackey isn't it?

That aside, MM is good for the deck (at least until they ban it). I'm not sold on 4 just yet but I'm eager to try it out. It's either that or it's back to sleeving up Stoneforge Mystics again which is really a desperate last resort believe you me.

That Reanimator scenario WAS weird. Why would he Brainstorm when he had the MM? But, regardless, he did cast Brainstorm in responce to my 1-drop, so MMing his Brainstorm WAS the right play by me (since casting BS there only makes sense if he's digging for FoW or MM).

MM is GREAT for the Goblin deck. Having MM + 1drop is ridiculously powerful. MM let's you do 2 things of great importance- 1) Gain tempo by countering the opposing 1drop AND 2) Protect your 1drop. I've always found Mulling to a 1drop to be the key to Goblin's success anyway. Since having tempo generating 1drops makes the deck, playing a card that gives you the ability to gain MORE tempo or PROTECT your tempo engine is really VERY important. Playing that card is a no-brainer when the only negative side to running it is slightly weaker Ringleaders and the loss of 2 life.

[jrw1985]

Virtues Ruin does the same to Progenitus as Perish. You only need to draw it and resolve it..
Stingscourger is main.
MM stops exactly 2 cards in Belcher. Tinder Wall and Rite of Flame. That might delay the kill one turn.

With 2 Virtues Ruin and 2 Warren Weirding killing Prog isn't too difficult. With 4 Piledrivers attacking through Prog isn't difficult either. I'm guessing it just wasn't your day.

MM against Belcher is still really good. 1) It can stop them for a turn. 2) If they can't go off T1 they'll want to stick a Tinder Wall to block your Lackey. If you MM their Wall then you can get your game going. Oh, and you should run Sharpshooter MD as a singleton. Getting that card in play lets you do crazy stupid things.

[ddt15]

Gonna play another tourney this weekend, i'll be playing this:

List (standard RB):

3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Instigator

4 Aether Vial
2 Warren Weirding

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Auntie's Hovel
3 Badlands
7 Mountain

Sideboard:

1 Boartusk Liege
3 Perish
3 Pyrokinesis
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Leyline of the Void

The tried and true RB goblins, with -1 Sharpshooter -3 CotV, +4 Therapy in the sideboard (as Chalice does nothing against SnT combo). Therapy has won me matches against SnT decks before. I'm just not entirely sure about cutting Sharpshooter.

[Dia_Bot]

jrw19852, could you perhaps post your list? I'm having trouble cutting cards for the MM.

[jrw1985]

jrw19852, could you perhaps post your list? I'm having trouble cutting cards for the MM.

Decklist Rgb Goblins
26 Core
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Seige-Gang Commander

12 Flex
4 Mental Misstep
1 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

22 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Mountains
6 Fetchlands

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Perish

I'm also considering cutting 1 Warchief and adding 1 Chieftain... though I think I've done it before and wasn't pleased with the results.

[Dia_Bot]

Thx. I'll try a build with MM.

[Solthos]

Hi guys, got a couple of questions:

Is the mono-red build viable or competitive at all?

And does adding burn spells (Fireblast, PoP, Bolts) reduce the effectiveness of the deck?

Also, wouldn't Blood Moon be good somewhere in the 75 of the deck? With Rishadan + Waste + Blood Moon, theoretically speaking, could just lock the opponent out of mana.

Sorry if any of these has already been asked.

[cloudshade]

@Blood Moon: i thought so too. i mean how many decks in legacy contain many basic lands anyhow? and how many play mono-R? maybe the emphasis of vial goblins should be on mana denial at this time. once not countered, blood moon is a pain in the a$$ and the vials get monstrous. after all, wouldnt this have a nice surprise effect at the one or the other tournament?

[ThoSha]

I tried 3 Magus of the Moon in my sideboard, and i had mixed feelings about it.
If it gets vialed in it is a huge bomb against Threshold and TA as its completly gameending for them. But if you hardcast it it will get countered most of the time. The only way i ever resolved it was trough vial.
And it does nothing against batterskull which sees alot of play atm.

[Annatar]

I would play Magus of the Moon over the enchantment if anything because he can be Vial-ed in.

[Hof]

I think Price of Progress is overall a better option than Moon effects. Price of Progress is easier to resolve than a Moon and it single handedly gives the deck a new angle of attack against many decks in the mid-late game. One particularly nice trick is that against Hive Mind the damage doubles itself, giving you a chance to win before you lose in your own upkeep. I have been thinking about a build with 19 Mountain, 4 vial, 3 Price of Progress, and 34 goblins, but I haven't gotten around to any testing yet.

[ScatmanX]

@Cloudshade:
Blood Moon is awesome, but depends on the metagame, and right now, it does not look that usefull.
If you resolve one against Team America, or UBG Landstill (if they don't have a Deed on play), then you just won the game.

[jrw1985]

@Blood Moon
I know I've made this point before, but I'll make it again.

Blood Moon maindeck is dead in too many matchups.
Blood Moon in the sideboard is unproductive because games 2&3 your opponent should be playing around Wasteland.
You already run Wasteland and Port for mana denial.

[from Cairo]

@Blood Moon
I know I've made this point before, but I'll make it again.

Blood Moon maindeck is dead in too many matchups.
Blood Moon in the sideboard is unproductive because games 2&3 your opponent should be playing around Wasteland.
You already run Wasteland and Port for mana denial.

This. I feel like Mental Misstep (Noble, GSZ, Vial, Top, Ponder) and/or Mogg Fanatic(Noble, Birds, Arbor, Dark Confidant, Grim) are more productive to complementing Goblin's mana disruption.

[ScatmanX]

This. I feel like Mental Misstep (Noble, GSZ, Vial, Top, Ponder) and/or Mogg Fanatic(Noble, Birds, Arbor, Dark Confidant, Grim) are more productive to complementing Goblin's mana disruption.
I agree here.

Going to try a Vial-less version (don't know if should post on the Vial Goblins Forum...), trying to fit 4 Tarfire/Fanatics, Missteps and Instigators. Hope it works nicely.

[jrw1985]

Another Tournament Report...

I sleeved up the Rgb list I've posted before, only I replaced 1 SGC with 1 Goblin Chieftain. It didn't make a difference. I also changed up the sideboard to look like...

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cabal therapy
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Perish
1 Pyrokinesis
2 Red Elemental Blast

I cut some Pyros and REBs for Therapies because Therapy is better against Hive Mind than any other combo hate, and REB and Pryo aren't too game winning, if that makes any sense. Basically, Pyro is there for more spot removal, but we already run tons of spot removal. REB is there to counter blue strategies, but it isn't effective enough to be boarded in against most anything other than Merfolk. Also, running Mental Misstep MD gives you a catch-all removal card.

R1 Esper Affinity
G1 I got a Sharpshooter online ftw.
G2 He got a Cranial Plating on an Etched Champion. I lost.
G3 I blew this game. I had a Lackey and three lands in play. I had Warchief, Matron, Piledriver, and Sharpshooter in hand. I cheated in the Warchief into play off the Lackey, then SHOULD have played Sharpshooter and Piledriver. INSTEAD I played Matron into another Piledriver, so that I could be attacking with 2 Piledrivers the next turn to put overwhelming pressure on. Well, after 2 turns of attacking I had Warchief and Sharpshooter left, and he got a Tezzeret online and won the game. I SHOULD have used the Matron to fetch up a Ringleader and keep the card advantage coming my way. Horrible play, and I really deserved to lose.
0-1

R2 Team America
G1 I won
G2 I lost
G3 I blew up his duals. Then I stuck a Lackey when I had 2 Matrons in hand. When I connected with Lackey I cheated one of the Matrons into play, then tutored and cast a 2nd Lackey. I had one mountain untapped and 1 REB and 1 Matron in hand, so I figured REB would protect my Lackeys and next turn I could Matron into Ringleader off of my Lackey triggers. Well, that was not to be the case. It was a pretty horrible play by me because on his turn he just Inquizition of Kozileced me, taking my Matron and leaving me only with REB. On my turn I topdecked a Ringleader. Win.
1-1

R3 UW Stoneblade Visions
G1 We both mulled to 5. I lost.
G2 We both mulled to 5. I won.
G3 My opponent was on the play and started with a Tundra and passed. I had a pretty great hand with Vials and Lackey and MM and Wasteland. I thought I could either play a Vial and use MM to protect it, or cast the Lackey and use MM to protect it, or just Waste his Tundra and use MM to stop his Brainstorm. I thought the Lackey plan was bad because he could just play SFM T2. And the Vial plan might gain me tempo, but ultimately I thought Waste with MM backup would give me the best chance of screwing his gameplan over. So I Wasted his Tundra, he Brainstormed, and I MMed and passed. He played a fetch. I played a mountain and Lackey. He Pathed my Lackey. Then he played a second land and cast SFM into Batterskull. I was stuck on 1 mountain and played a Vial. He played a land and put batterskull into play, while I played a 2nd Vial. He attacked, and I played a third Vial. He attacked again. EOT I Vialed in a Lackey. On my turn I Pyroed his STM (removing Warchief) then Stingscourgered his Germ. i sent Lackey through the open board and cheated in a Ringleader, drawing a couple goblins. He bounced his Batterskull EOT and replayed it on his turn. I Finally drew a 2nd land and Ancient Grudged his batterskull, then pounded in goblins ftw.
2-1

R4 TES brew
G1 I knew what my opponent was playing and for some reason I decided to keep an opening hand of 5 lands, Goblin Lackey, and Vial. I figured with all these lands in hand and a Lackey I could maybe get lucky in topdeck mode. I couldn't. I should have mulled. What a shitty keep.
G2 I mulled to 6 and had 1 land, a Lackey, and a grip full of goblins, but no Missteps or Therapies. Sigh. I kept and loss.
2-2

Against the TES brew I also could have sided in Leyline of the Void, just because it would have kept his Cabal Rituals from having Threshold and stopped his Rite of Flames from growing. Of course I would have had that many fewer win conditions then. Still, G1 was all my fault. I never gave myself a chance.

Against Affinity i got greedy and went for the win when i should have been going the attrition path with Ringleader. I could have won the game and possibly ended in the money. As it was I was 2-2, it was getting late, and 3-2s were very unlikely to get paid (especially with R1 losses) so I called it a night.
2-2

[Amon Amarth]

I've been playing with 3x Mogg Fanatics in the main again. Played a few games against NO RUG and Fast Zoo. I was very impressed. Definitely going to test it more.

[ThoSha]

Thanks for the report jrw.
Your meta is pretty similar to mine and its nice to analyse the difference in playstyle between me and other goblin players.
I think you did a good job except the fail hand keeps and the affinity one.
If you are struggling in what your enemy is going to bring in just always go for the ringleader, its the most powerful play in goblins.
And again I see that the black splash really isnt that neccessary, except for the combo hate ofc.

@Amon Amarth
Mogg Fanatic IS absolutely amazing for a 1drop and I still run 4.
Cool that you also tried them out.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Tournament Report - 43 players, 6 rounds.
There were 7 Reanimator's floating around and a bunch of Merfolk and NO RUG. I was known as the player using R/B Misstep Goblins; the only Goblin player there.
Was in 5th place going into the top 8 where I was paired against Zoo and lost =/

26 Core

12 Flex
4 Mental Misstep
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

22 Manabase
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

Round 1 vs. Dragon Stompy 2-0

Round 2 vs NO RUG 0-2
Game 1 I misplayed a misstep but it didn't matter as the game played out. He had me beat. This was my first match against NO RUG and I now understand how Mogg Fanatic is great against this deck. I lost game 2 because I couldn't draw a fetch land to play the Perish in my hand. Oh well.

Round 3 vs Enchantress 2-0
Misstep stopped his early play and he played more non-basics than I'd have recommended for Enchantress.

Round 4 vs MUC 2-0
Game against a friend of mine. Game 2 Wort pulled her weight by attacking past Morphling for the win.

Round 5 vs Reanimator 2-0
Misstep Entomb game 1
My game 2 hand was Fetchland, Lackey, Misstep, WW, LotV, Port, Warchief. Easy win.

Round 6 vs Zoo -ID-

Top 8 I'm paired against my Round 6 opponent. Never played against Zoo before. Game 1 we both mull to 6. I keep Lackey, Misstep, SGC hand. Never draw a 2nd land.
Game 2 I squeaked out. Tuktuk killed Jitte but not before it killed all my goblins. Top-decking Perish made the board state even. I held back 2 Ringleaders for when he started drawing off the top. Wort and Ringleaders buried him in card advantage.
Game 3 I couldn't draw a fetchland to play one of the 2 Perish I was holding...

So I finished between 5th-8th overall. All-stars were Wort and Misstep.

[jrw1985]

Thanks for the report jrw.
I think you did a good job except the fail hand keeps and the affinity one.
If you are struggling in what your enemy is going to bring in just always go for the ringleader, its the most powerful play in goblins.

My mistake was going for Piledriver instead of Ringleader. Piledriver is better against decks where you know the damage will get through (like against combo or sometimes Merfolk or staring down a Progenital clock). Against decks that put bodies on the board (AKA Affinity) you really need to drown them in card advantage, and that means tutoring for Ringleader. How could I make a play that bad when the right play was so obvious? I got greedy.



Round 5 vs Reanimator 2-0
Misstep Entomb game 1
My game 2 hand was Fetchland, Lackey, Misstep, WW, LotV, Port, Warchief. Easy win.

So I finished between 5th-8th overall. All-stars were Wort and Misstep.

YESH! Finally someone else is on my side with Mental Misstep! Hands like this make MM a fucking bomb, especially if you're on the play. This is the Goblin Godhand. Congrats on your finish.

[Avatara]

Progenital :D

[Ace/Homebrew]

Finally someone else is on my side with Mental Misstep!

Just want to point this out =)


Having 4 Mental Misstep has perfect synergy with our mana denial.


Superstar of the day was Mental Misstep. I highly recommend this card for a third of our flex spots. It's THAT good game 1.

After a rough day I'll try to focus my energy into something productive... My goal is to spark some discussions about card choices.
To me Goblins is about pushing lethal damage across the table as quickly as possible and making life suck for your opponent as much as you can. Undisrupted we are as fast as Zoo at doing 20 damage. Zoo's strength is it's hyper-efficiency. Our strength is that we cheat. We play creatures for free with Lackey and Vial. We attack with haste with Warchief and Chieftain. We draw crazy amounts of cards for a red deck with Ringleader. We can tutor for answers and threats with Matron. All while wreaking havoc on our opponent's manabase with Port and Wasteland.

I am a fan of Goblins Core 26 cards. It is not scripture to me as I remove a Warchief or Piledriver if I just HAVE to fit in what I want to, but it has proven to be an incredibly consistent and reliable core. It may be time to reconsider our core so it lies on us to test out different cards. JRW and I have found Mental Misstep to be very helpful. I don't think I will play Goblins without it for some time. It allows us to keep 1 mana Lackey/Vial hands again. It protects your turn 1 plays and can completely ruin your opponent's tempo. It is a dead card against some decks but so is Incinerator. You just board it out game 2 and fill the spot with something relevant.

Marcello, I believe you have been toying with the idea of dropping Vials. How's that been for you? At one point I cut vials for Chrome Mox while trying to maximize the possibility of playing Instigator on turn 1. This was very very bad however my testing focus at the time was the adding of 2 mox, not the removing of 4 vials. I've dropped Vials to 3 before and didn't noticed a difference in the frequency of having one in my starting hand. But whenever I sleeve up Goblins for a tournament I make sure I take 4 vials with me because they are so strong against control.

Lets take a look at the 'core' shall we?

Goblin Lackey, Goblin Matron, and Goblin Ringleader really are THE BEST cards for what they do. As long as a Goblin deck has 30+ goblins in it then Ringleader keeps his spot in this category.

Aether Vial - Great against permission based blue decks. Let's us play through Iona naming red. Helps protect against getting mana screwed while also allowing us to screw our opponents mana and still apply pressure on the board. Late game this card is less impressive.

Goblin Piledriver - If we win in less than 4 turns it's because of this guy... He's the best at getting big damage early and he's awesome against fish. Sneaks past Progenitus. Downsides are that he dies easily with only 2 toughness and he really relies on you having lots of other goblins out to be scary.

Goblin Warchief - I've thought about Goblin Chieftain replacing him. What keeps me from doing that is that I like to play Matron for Piledriver and play Piledriver for only 3 mana then swing in for 8... out of nowhere. Warchief allows you to dump your hand after a big Ringleader draw more effectively than Chieftain. However in some matchups the +1/+1 provided by Chieftain is more relevant. I was pleased with a 3/3 split when I was running the Moxtigator list. In a list with lots of RR costs Warchief isn't being used to his full potential. It might be that bigger is better than cheaper nowadays.

Siege-Gang Commander - 4 creatures for the price of 1? The ability to turn a goblin into a shock? Sign me up. I've said before that I wouldn't play less than 3 of him. Turns out I'm a liar, but I still think SGC deserves a spot in the core. I know he's probably the most controversial of the core so I'd love to hear why people prefer other cards. To me, if we play Lackey then we need to play SCG. Like I said above, Lackey putting SCG into play turn 2 for FREE is cheating.

Lastly I'll mention Wasteland and Rishadan Port. I think that both cards are equally strong. I know many will cut Port to fit in luxury items like Chrome Mox or more duals. I find that in some matchups the only way Goblins can interact with the opponent is with Port. When I played the Moxtigator list I dropped both to 3.

Interested in comments from all. ESPECIALLY if you disagree with me.

[Big Sexy]

@ Ace/Homebrew, Goblin Warchief is the best goblin ever. Goblins is all about pushing the tempo and no goblin does that like he does. Running less than 4 or boarding some out is crazy.

[Ace/Homebrew]

No doubts in my mind Goblin Warchief is an incredible card!
If you've been following the last couple pages of this thread there's been several comments about how Goblins no longer has what it takes to win in Legacy and it was proposed by more than one player that we might need to reconsider our 26 Core cards.

IF any card can replace Warchief, it'd be Chieftain. There are a few cards in the Goblin arsenal where Chieftain is strictly the better call over Warchief. The list is short.

Goblin Lackey
Mogg Fanatic
Goblin Guide
Warren Instigator

Notice that the quality all these cards share is no colorless mana symbol in their casting cost.
There are also a few cards where Chieftain and Warchief both have their advantages depending on what your goal is... do you want to play all your Goblins in 1 turn or do you want all your goblins as big as possible.

Mogg War Marshal
Siege-Gang Commander

In my opinion Goblins could use as many cards that read "all your goblins have haste" as possible. Most lists I've been seeing here lately have 5 such cards with a 4/1 split favoring Warchief.

[Big Sexy]

I love hasty goblins. I run 4 Warchief & 3 Chieftain. I'be been told it's to many Chieftains but I don't care. He rarely sucks. I may cut 1 to try & fit Mental Misstep but Warchief will always be a 4 of.

[Annatar]

You could get away with playing 3. Normally I cut one warchief from the core to add a single chieftain and that has so far worked out well.

The Core itself doesn't really need that many adjustments. Adding Mental Misstep won't change it's configuration significantly as much as it will be a concession to a format-warping powerhouse of a card.

A question regarding the mana base: If you're playing a single color splash in a 22 land mana base, how many fetchlands are needed? At this point I'm sporting 8 (twice the number of basics) but perhaps feel that playing fewer of them might help towards stabilizing the mana base. Any thoughts on this?

[Amon Amarth]

I feel that you must have a really good reason not to run at least a single Goblin Chieftain. I've been happy with a 5th Haste-enabler as well as the pump effect.

[Big Sexy]

I've been reading this thread and there seems to be some talk of changing the "core". The problem with goblins isn't the core it's the way the game has developed over the years. There are just to many deck that goblins has trouble beating to say it's a top tier deck. Other aggro decks have bigger dudes so we board in more creature hate. Some put more men on the table faster such as shitty elf decks and affinity. There's re-animator, Iona is bad for us so is Akroma. Landstill, I hear Humility or Moat is bad for goblins. Aggro Loam with Devastating Dreams. Not to mention combo. These are somewhat random decks but I run into this crap all the time. I'm sure I'm missing a few decks but hopefully I've made my point. You need yard hate, creature hate, green hate, blue hate, artifact hate, combo hate.... You can't be prepared for everything anymore. Is goblins still good? Of course. I just feel you need to get really lucky with your match ups in order to win it all.

[Yuri8]

It's clear that wizards don't plan give us anything goblin related in Innistrad so only help could come from banlist. How much do you think, goblin recruiter could help us? If you look at goblin list you see that we didn't get any real bomb since darksteel. Goblins same (with minor changes like 1-2 stingscourger and chieftain) for 7 years! This will be another rough year for goblin players, and winter is coming...

[daPaule]

How much do you think, goblin recruiter could help us?

Making Food Chain Goblins playable again.. hmhm I don't know exactly but you would still be dead in the water vs blue permission, but with a combo kill if they don't have it ;) Then at least cards like Jitte wouldn't be a somewhat "autoloss". Somewhere in community was a thread about just removing one card from the banned list and the others were at least more scary than recruiter, so it could be possible.

[jrw1985]

It's clear that wizards don't plan give us anything goblin related in Innistrad so only help could come from banlist. How much do you think, goblin recruiter could help us? If you look at goblin list you see that we didn't get any real bomb since darksteel. Goblins same (with minor changes like 1-2 stingscourger and chieftain) for 7 years! This will be another rough year for goblin players, and winter is coming...

Goblins is certainly not the powerhouse it was 7 years ago (or even the Tier 1 presence it was 1 year ago). But it's still a deck that will kill turn 4 if left unhindered, which is kinda the clock-standard for aggro decks in Legacy (and Goblins is also the aggro deck that probably draws the most use out of MM). This keeps Goblins playable, though not dominant. Unbanning Recruiter could make the deck a powerhouse again (since aggro and combo kills would be very hard for the format to combat), but that's not gunna happen. I'm not so sure I'd want it to anyway. Playing goblins as a Foodchain Combo deck just doesn't sound as fun to me.

The only thing that could really bring goblins back is new cards at this point. Wizards needs to print a Goblin card (creature or tribal, doesn't matter) that costs R or 1R and is just dirty-broken. I'm talking Lackey/Piledriver broken. Make Goblin Grenade Tribal broken. Goblin Spirit Guide broken. But WotC has already chosen to neglect giving Goblins a boost. They've reprinted Grenade and didn't errata Tribal onto it (what a shame) and they printed Simian Spirit Guide specifically to deny goblins the tribal synergy elves are allowed. What a crock. And they refuse to print new Goblins that are powerful/cheap enough to play in Legacy (RR for Winstigator was not an accident; they knew 1R would make it too playable [unfortunately, casting costs that keep cards fair in Standard make them duds in Legacy]).

Goblins suffers from being a "linear-strategy" in that the deck lives and dies by the addition of new Goblin cards. Compare this to Reanimator. WotC will print badass fatties until it goes out of business. Players LOVE badass fatties. Young players are drawn to Craw Wurms and get excited about buying a 10/10 for their 100 card deck. And all Wizards has to do to appease players that love huge monsters is print one or two decent ones a block (and, yes, the fatties are getting exponentially better; notice how Blazing Archon is the only Reanimator target from before Shards block?). Creature decks generally either cheat huge creatures into play (Reanimator, Show and Tell, NO) or play the most efficient creatures possible (Goyf, SFM, Zoo). Anytime an overpowered creature is printed, those decks will find a home for it. Goblins, on the other hand, needs great Goblins to be printed to keep up. In order for WotC to bother printing good Goblins they also need to make Goblins a theme of the set or block. If they make Goblins the theme of the set or block they need to be very careful not to make Goblins too overpowered: This means making the best Goblins slightly too fair for Legacy. Don't ask me how Coralhelm Commander came into existence (a growing, evasive, pumping Merfolk from a set that wasn't Merfolk themed? Maybe all my assertions about good goblins needing set/block support was wrong... Nope, I'm right! Woldwake had 5 other Merfolk printed in it!).

It's funny that you say a rough winter is coming for Goblins. The fact is Goblins hasn't evolved past the core 26 because the core 26 was so overpowered it kept Goblins in the game until MM + SFM caused a mass exodus. Now that people think Goblins can't win, nobody plays it. The SCG metagame spreadsheets show this. About 1 to 2 percent of any given Open is Goblins these days. It used to be closer to 10 percent.

[GoboLord]

I want to say s.th. about the "Core-cards"-concept, since many replies are using this term:

This concept was introduced by me. This in turn means that it is a very subjective selection of cards that I consider the core of this deck. As you can read in the deckprimer other users (FoulQ) had a different idea of what a Goblin deck's core is. WHen I was introducing this concept I found out that those cards are most frequently played in goblin-decks back then. This however does not mean that those core card will be the same for eternity.
So, everyone: Please don't let this concept misguide you when discussing about goblins! "Think outside the box!" as lejay would say.

[lyracian]

Goblins suffers from being a "linear-strategy" in that the deck lives and dies by the addition of new Goblin cards. Compare this to Reanimator. WotC will print badass fatties until it goes out of business. Players LOVE badass fatties.Well we might get lucky the next time they visit changeling. Other than, if we are lucky, a better artefact killing Goblin I do not think Standard will add anything to the deck until we get some more Tribal spells.

I agree thought with your comments on fatties; other decks can cheat them into play and R&D will keep pushing the power curve up and thus making the Goblin-Game harder.

[BigBopper]

I get your point but I don't see a point in complaining about card printings. Of course WotC wants you to buy new cards and spend your money, that's why SFM and friends are printed.
And it's not like no good gobos were printed-I mean with Kuldotha Red it was quite possible to play Goblins in standart. Those lists involved something like they posted in the "goblin-sigh" thread:

Goblin Bushwhracker
Goblin Guide
Goblin Chieftain etc.

Even Goblin Wardriver serves it purpose, but you're right it's not playable in legacy as we play the deck with vials and a high mana curve.
The only guy that sees common play is Goblin Guide but not in Goblin Decks but Burn and Zoo...
So my question is: why playing Chieftain at all. I don't really see a huge advantage in one copy of him, but rather the lately posted lists were missing Sharpshooter-which is quite a house right now. Talking about Mogg Fanatic in early game makes him a must-have in late game, doesn't it?

[Amon Amarth]

I run 2 SS and 3 Mogg Fanatic MD. It seems silly to not run at least 1 Sharpshooter with all the dorks running around. Look at all the creatures that Maverick plays. There are so many 1 toughness dorks to mow down. Or all the Cliques, Arbors, Merfolk, Lavamancers, Moms, Confidants, Bitterblossom tokens. I would recommend at least playing 1 MD. It's really good now with how slow some of the green decks are.

[BigBopper]

Hey guys,
here is my report from a local ~40 people tournament:
I went with the following list, which I was not satisfied with but I couldn't find a 4th Port and Duals to play, Perish, Warren Weirding or TSH...
//Lands (22):
3x Port
4x Wasteland
15x Mountain

//Core (26)

//Flex (12):
3x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Stingscourger
1x Tarfire
1x Mogg Fanatic
1x Sharpshooter
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
4x Mental Misstep

//Sideboard (15):
2x Pulverize
2x Shattering Spree
1x Goblin Tinkerer
4x Pyrokinesis
2x Tormord's Cyrpt
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Pyroblast

Round 1: Aluren
Game 1-I don't know what he's playing until he went into the combo and won. 0-1
Game 2-I boarded Pyroblast and countered his intuition, which kept him off the game and I finished him with tarfire, which he was making fun of already game 1. 1-1
Game 3-I mull to 6 and keep a slow hand. When he plays Aluren and doesn't have all combo pieces I realize that I can also play creatures without casting cost-so 2 warchief enter, followed by a 2 mana ringleader and 2 piledriver. When I attack he plays kitchen finks from his hand, gains life and blocks, gains life again. He stays in the game and next round goes into combo. 1-2

Round 2: Maverik
Game 1-We both mull to 5, he's on the play and lays a dual, I waste it on my turn. So he plays gea's craddle, I play mountain, lackey, go and he just passes the turn, not finding a land drop the whole game. So I just beat him down in 3 more turns. 1-0
Game 2-He's on the play again and so it goes fore and back. We end up in lategame where he's 2 Knights and I accumulate gobos on the table, countering his noble hirach and mother of runes with MM. Finally I attack, which he blocks with the Knights and finish him off with Sharpshooter. 2-0

Round 3: ANT
First of all I have to say I knew this player from a previous tournatment and also knew that he was playing ANT again, so I also knew which hands to keep and what to board.
Game 1-He just finds preordain and puts the cards to the bottom of the library, I have lackey and warchief, as well as matron into piledriver and draw 2 more lackeys which finish him off on my turn 4 (he was on the play again). 1-0
Game 2-I didn't pack chalices so I boarded Pyroblast and the Crypts??? I mull to 6 and he starts with brainstorm. I topdeck one Crypt and play it together with lackey. He dueresses me, but finds nothing. Ironically I topdeck a misstep, play port and attack. He wants to bounce the lackey but I Misstep it, connect into warchied and tap his island in his upkeep. He plays a second one and Ponder and passes. I put down a piledriver and connect into Ringleader, he's at 3 life and I tap his underground sea, so he sits on two islands and conceeds. 2-0
Afterwards he explained me, that he could not go off because my Crypt hindered him from playing Il-gotten gains.

Round 4: Deadguy Ale
Game 1: I play the game while he tries to StP lackey which I misstep, when he finally puts a creature into game (vampire nighthawk) I bounce it with stinger and win. 1-0
Game 2: I connect with lackey into Siege-Gang and the game is over before he can do anything except playing a SFM searcing for batterscull... 2-0

Round 5: Maverik
Game 1: I keep a one land hand with two vials and we get to lategame early. I manage to put tuktuk his batterscull and have a siege gang before he can attack with jitte. Somewhen I win-can't remember what made it, but I had answers to all threads. 1-0
Game 2: I don't really know what to board, so I go with 2 Pyrokinesis (for Fanatic and a vial) and the tinkerer because one artifact removel is just to few, especially since they get them back with eternal wittness. We also get to late-game pretty fast-there are 2 key events that made up the game. The first one was, when I vialed in a Matron and in response he StP my warchief. My plan was to destroy his mana base by tutoring up a sharpshooter and play it with haste-so i decided for something else to play, maybe even a new warchief... The second event was when I vialed in a ringleader as the second last card of my hand and found....4 lands :( ok but I still had one in hand, I played the other one for 3cc and found...3 lands and a lackey, which I also played. With no cards in hand the game went one for 2 more turns and i found misstep and vial and lost. 1-1
We only had 10 minutes left to play and he asked me to draw but I neglected. But it turned out to be a draw anyways because of time, while I had a worse board position. So actually i could be pretty happy with it.

Round 6: Maverik
I was just coming from the other game as the new one begun and didn't even have my sideboard removed from deck. So while I was doing so I got totally confused with everything, 'cause he already shuffeled and when we drew I wasn't totally there, which caused a chain of mistakes I'm even ashamed of to tell-with other words I lost badly. 0-1
Game 2: I finally was on the play and went mountain, lackey, go. The plays savannah. I attack, he StP, I misstep, connect into Siege-Gang and waste his land. He concieds right there. 1-1
Game 3: I just can't find the answers to the threads he's putting on the table (Thrun, the Last Troll, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Scavenging Ooze, Batterscull) and finally get overrun with the help of mother of runes. 1-2

So I ended up 13th with a 3-2-1 record, but I could have made top 8 if I had been concentrated on my first game in the last match. That was very unprofessionell-so that's something I got for the next tournament.
It also seemed like Maverik is all over the place and half of the people played it. Misstep is pretty awesome and if you don't draw it-you go the aggro way. I even used mid-game misstep topdecks for lategame mothers of runes. Fanatic did an Ok job but I still boarded it out. Pyrokinesis is not as good as usual because of all the spot removal MD. So if I had drawn a Perish late game, I would have won all Maverik Matchups-so definetly want that splash, also for one WW. I didn't miss Chieftain at all-didn't see any engeneered plaques, but just wanted to get Sharpshooter online sometime...
Other than that people were surprised to see goblins and didn't expect MM in it-still wished for that last game to replay, but I can live with that result.

[Gustaco]

Hey Guys, just went 4~2 finshing in 12th in the last Local Legacy Tournament with 64 players.
Played with Rgb Misstep the list was the following:

Lands (24)
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
5 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Badlands
2 Taiga

[Core] 26

[Flex] 11
4 Mental Misstep
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Wort, Boggart-Auntie
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin-street Hooligan
1 Warren Weirdings

(yeah i know 61, i just couldn't figure what to cut before the champ)

Sideboard:
4 Cabal Therapy (MVP)
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Earwig Squad
3 Perish

Faced the following:
2 points before (1- i have a real bad memory can't even remember what i had for breakfast. 2- My english is not the best :/)

Round 1:Urgw rogue with quirion dryad and stoneforge. (2-1)
the list was kinda crazy no basics, stifle missdirection fow's and sfm
G1 Vial stick on 1, wasted 3 lands cycled on a noble and ride warchief and piledriver to victory (also screwed his mana with a port)
G2 he counter lackey, destroy vial counter matron, and when i resolve a ringleader i get only another lackey :/
G3: Lackey stick, he get a jitte from SFM, and when i TSH he stiffle it, pyrokinesis get rid of the SFM the a perish clear the way to victory
1-0
Round 2:Hive Mind (2-1)
g1 - he plays tomb and passes, i waste it pass back and he does nothing, even sticking Lackey on the next turn i don't get pressure for 3 turns (draw 3 vial) then a ringleader got lethal on board, then he find the blue source and combo me via SaT (some point he get a monolith) if i had a fetch i could have payed his green pact but not that time :/
G2- was pretty much the same thing except that i therapy his SaT and kill him on Turn 4
G3- i Therapy and see 2 emrakuls Sat and some pacts (hit the SaT), then Earwig squad get rid of the other 3, and i get the time i need to kill him out.
2-0
Round 3:Khuldota combo (U version with blightsteel and staff of domination)
Game 1 can' remember well but i TSH his blocker even with a trinsphere get a driver via Vial (had a warchief in play and swing 2 times
Game 2 Lackey stick i therapy b4 combat and see that he got the combo, i place the stingscourger without target for therapy but even that he combo me out anyway :/
Game 3 Lackey stick i hit for matron that helps 2 therapys strip his hand, game from here.
3-0
Round 4: SpiralTide
G1: I misstep tide and win sticking lackey for gang and piledriver on T2 (lulz)
G2: I miss black sources for 4 turns with 2 therapys and he combo me at 4 life :/
G3: I stick lackey with misstep on his, then got warchief and driver on 2, with 4 life once again he combo me out (even that this time he take's the therapy getting rid of 2 meditates and 1 tide.
3-1
Round 5: Enchantress
Game 1: He starts i remember that i stick lackey get warchief and matron for driver T2, T3 i get wort he go down to 3 and plays Moat, then i never find SGC
Game 2: He mulls to 5, i get Lackey into SGC and Driver, Therapyed for Solitary confinament that hit and MM the elephant grass.
Game 3: Lost cause i screwed my thought process i had misstep and therapyed for wild growth instead of solitary confinament he had the confinament and locked me from there (he get a chrome mox on T1 for enchantress), then confinament on t2 for a bunch of other enchantress effects :/
3-2 I had some chance of Top8'ing so i give a shot at round 6
Round 6 Uw Stoneblade (with the faerie package)
G1: Wort won the game after a ringleader for 4 lands and 2 piledrivers eat the plowshare's =]
G2: i Mull into 4 and get crushed for SFM on t2
G3: we Both mulls to 6, i stick lackey he plays island go, i get into Siege-Gang and play the 2nd Lackey
He plays Fetch Go, i bash he cracks plays a Spellstutter i trow a goblin at her from lackeys get matron and ringleader he scoops :D

The Main deck made me pretty happy i just don't know what to cut (any thoughts?)
The meta was with lots of merfolks and control and i got paried with most random things -__-
From the Board sharpshooter don't came in really much but i still like him most, don't know what to cut but i would like to find room for 1-2 Blasts.
IMO screwing my sb to help find combo don't worth it i will do my best with therapys and MM and hope for the best (even that most combo here are SaT based and therapy is fine aganist them)
Therapy was allways a good card to draw and i used it in most of the games.

Once again sorry for my awfull english and hope that the info i brought can help us get back to the top soon :D (Goblins are not dead i made 2 Top4 and this Top11 in the last 3 tournaments i played just not as powerfull as it was B4 misstep)

[BigBopper]

Is MM worth playing 1-2 volcanic islands?
Especially in late game you have more mana than necessary so fetching for a dual and hardcasting MM would cause less loss of life...

[jrw1985]

Is MM worth playing 1-2 volcanic islands?
Especially in late game you have more mana than necessary so fetching for a dual and hardcasting MM would cause less loss of life...

No need to run Volcanic Islands. That's why they printed MM with Phyrexian mana. Running VI makes you more susceptible to Wasteland, you still need to play fetches for it anyway (So you're really only saving yourself 1 life), and the extra risk you expose your deck to is not worth the net gain of 1 life. And you usually want to cast MM for free T1 or T2 anyway. Additionally, MM saves you a lot of life in the long run of the game. Countering a Nacatl, Brainstorm, or Careful Study buys you a turn, and is well worth the 2 life investment.

[jrw1985]

Round 1: Aluren
Game 1-I don't know what he's playing until he went into the combo and won. 0-1
Game 2-I boarded Pyroblast and countered his intuition, which kept him off the game and I finished him with tarfire, which he was making fun of already game 1. 1-1
Game 3-I mull to 6 and keep a slow hand. When he plays Aluren and doesn't have all combo pieces I realize that I can also play creatures without casting cost-so 2 warchief enter, followed by a 2 mana ringleader and 2 piledriver. When I attack he plays kitchen finks from his hand, gains life and blocks, gains life again. He stays in the game and next round goes into combo. 1-2

Round 6: Maverik
I was just coming from the other game as the new one begun and didn't even have my sideboard removed from deck. So while I was doing so I got totally confused with everything, 'cause he already shuffeled and when we drew I wasn't totally there, which caused a chain of mistakes I'm even ashamed of to tell-with other words I lost badly. 0-1
Game 2: I finally was on the play and went mountain, lackey, go. The plays savannah. I attack, he StP, I misstep, connect into Siege-Gang and waste his land. He concieds right there. 1-1
Game 3: I just can't find the answers to the threads he's putting on the table (Thrun, the Last Troll, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Scavenging Ooze, Batterscull) and finally get overrun with the help of mother of runes. 1-2


A reminder against Aluren- When they combo off they need Imperial Recruiters in play which they then start bouncing with Dream Stalker to then tutor their other combo pieces and win. SOoOoO- When they cast Dream Stalker you just need to cast Matron>Sharpshooter with a Warchief in play and use Sharpshooter to blow up their Recruiters (in response still to the Dream Stalker). Then they have no combo ability.

Against Maverick (and, like, everything) Black splash is still a bomb. WW is great against all the fatties in the format, and Perish is of course a game winner.

Good report, too.




Round 4: SpiralTide
G1: I misstep tide and win sticking lackey for gang and piledriver on T2 (lulz)
G2: I miss black sources for 4 turns with 2 therapys and he combo me at 4 life :/
G3: I stick lackey with misstep on his, then got warchief and driver on 2, with 4 life once again he combo me out (even that this time he take's the therapy getting rid of 2 meditates and 1 tide.
3-1
Round 5: Enchantress
Game 1: He starts i remember that i stick lackey get warchief and matron for driver T2, T3 i get wort he go down to 3 and plays Moat, then i never find SGC
Game 2: He mulls to 5, i get Lackey into SGC and Driver, Therapyed for Solitary confinament that hit and MM the elephant grass.
Game 3: Lost cause i screwed my thought process i had misstep and therapyed for wild growth instead of solitary confinament he had the confinament and locked me from there (he get a chrome mox on T1 for enchantress), then confinament on t2 for a bunch of other enchantress effects :/

Once again sorry for my awfull english and hope that the info i brought can help us get back to the top soon :D (Goblins are not dead i made 2 Top4 and this Top11 in the last 3 tournaments i played just not as powerfull as it was B4 misstep)

It sounds like you had the High Tide match under control, except for that mana screw G2. I've started packing Cabal Therapy in my SB too, even though I haven't yet gotten the chance to cast one. They're clearly the best combo hate at the moment since the field is too open for combo. They also help out against control-combo like Enchantress. Good report.

Thanks for posting your reports with MM lists! It sounds like you're finding success with MM. Both of you had losses that looked more like bad luck than your deck being outmatched, which is always preferred to being unfit for competition. I still want to see a MM-Goblin deck in the top 8 of a SCG Open.

[BigBopper]

A reminder against Aluren- When they combo off they need Imperial Recruiters in play which they then start bouncing with Dream Stalker to then tutor their other combo pieces and win. SOoOoO- When they cast Dream Stalker you just need to cast Matron>Sharpshooter with a Warchief in play and use Sharpshooter to blow up their Recruiters (in response still to the Dream Stalker). Then they have no combo ability.


Thanks for the advise, but he played a ugb-version and intuition for raven familiar...
Another thing that I forgot is, that Maverik hit me had during mid-game, when I was having contol over the board and they were trying to evolve a position with a boarded Wing Shards. Both of them played it as a one off, but still going in with Matron, Warchief and Piledriver turn 4 or 5 while with one spell on my turn makes it pretty rough... still I won one of these games. But there is no way to see that coming or prevent for it...

[jrw1985]

Tournament Report
Just a small 4 Rounder where I went 2-2
Decklist Rgb Goblins
25 Core (-1 SGC)
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Seige-Gang Commander

13 Flex
4 Mental Misstep
1 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

22 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Mountains
6 Fetchlands

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyrokinesis
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Perish

R1 Poison
G1 I had MM for his 1drop, Wasteland for his Nexus, and got my hoard rolling for the win.
G2 T3 poisoned to death by an unblockable 1/1!
G3 Mulled to 4... Lost.
This is actually a pretty bad matchup because 1) creatures with evasion are difficult since we don't have StP or PtE, 2) our Gempalms don't work well because they have free pumps, 3) if you give them 1 turn with an Infect creature online you're probably going to lose. Basically, we don't have access to spot removal that's effective against their creatures. Also, they can cast Berserk and pumps after you declare blockers, so if 1 guy even gets through it ends the game usually.
0-1

R2 BW
2-1 this round. Nothing too amazing to report. His deck seemed light on land, and I picked up at least 1 win because of it.
1-1

R3 Merfolk
G1 I'm on the draw. T1 he plays Vial. I MM it. He MMs my MM. I have a 2nd MM and his Vial is dead. I then land a T1 Lackey. He plays a T2 Silvergil Adept. I Gempalm it T2 and cruise to the W.
G2 I get him to 10, but he stabilizes with a Jitte. L.
G3 I own the bejeezus out of him. He starts developing his board with a few Lords and a Mutavault. I attack with lethal out of just my Piledriver. He activates Mutavault, but I Gempalm it before he can declare blocks. W
2-1

R4 Zoo
G1 I'm on the draw, mull to 6 and have no 1 drops. I'm facing down 3 Nacatls going into my 2nd turn. Lose.
G2 Another mediocre hand for me (Mulled to six for 2 Vial, 2 Warchief, 2 Lands [so like, no removal or draw spells to get me back in the late game]), but I fight the good fight and get him down to 6 life before he puts me away. So it goes.
2-2

That Infect deck is pretty brutal. There's just not enough time for us to get established and it has plenty of redundancy and disruption. You really need to have an answer for every creature they play the turn they play it, because if just 1 gets through your game is over. Also, mulling to 4 against anything is pretty gnarly.
Zoo is Zoo. It's hard to be sneaky when you're getting bashed with 3 Nacatls. That's usually how it goes against Zoo though. If they have 3 creatures and 2 removal spells in their opening hand you're probably not going to win.
I realize that going 2-2 is nothing to brag about, but I didn't write this to brag. I won when I had playable hands. I lost matches where I mulled to 4 and 6. I won with a god-hand against Merfolk G1 (2 MM, Lackey).

I feel like Goblins needs more spot removal MD. Anyone playing lists with Tarfires? I think I could cut 1 Chieftain and TSH to make room for 2 Tarfires (they're better against SFM anyway). TSH just isn't effective enough. You hold him in your hand until turn 4! They play turn 2 SFM, activate it on T3's end-step, so you can't even blow up Batterskull until T4, and they have 3 mana up to bounce it by then anyway (or a counterspell). So I think I'll try dropping TSH the next time I play. I'll keep the Green splash though, just for Ancient Grudge (still worth it). And having Tarfire gives you a few more outs against the usual gang of idiots (Bob, Bop, Nob, Gob, Lavamancer, Clique, whatevs).

[ThoSha]

nice report jrw, but you cant be serious about that infect pile.
That deck is so bad i cant even find words for it. Play Mogg Fanatic and shoot at their creature in YOUR turn, let them waste 1-2 pumpspells just for protecting them, save a Misstep or something for berserk and then you won. Thats the easiest matchup ever. Congratz on the fish ownage tough, i appreciate it.

[Amon Amarth]

@jrw: I'm playing 3x Fanatics main and they are more or less interchangeable with Tarfire. I like Fanatic just for the splash hate against Dredge. Tarfire is better vs Zoo, SFM though. I'm also playing 3x Warren Weirding MD too because it works so well with the extra removal and is awesome in general.

[BigBopper]

I played Fanatic and Tarfire and liked Tarfire more. I see Fanatics advantages, but getting Sharpshooter online takes some time, too. I usually dropped him when boarding for pyrokinesis. But I would still cut Chieftain at all and keep the artifact removal MD, cause Jitte and Batterscull are still are threat I want to respont. I also have the felling that MM is countering most of Fanatics targets, like Bird, Hirach, Mother, Lavamancer...
How did it fell to play with one SGC. I always have the feeling that he rocks lategame and when your vial is already set on four you can tutor for it! So is one enough?

[orcanmail]

If blue is so dominant why don't we pack 7-8 pyro / red elemental blasts in our sideboard instead of 3-4? Can stop missteps, brainstorm, daze, stifle, ponder, FOW etc, eg their counter ability and engine. We could then get to our matron / ringleader engine having taken the steam out of all the dominant blue decks. Just a thought as in the past this has worked for me when i have correctly anticipated the meta.

[ScatmanX]

If blue is so dominant why don't we pack 7-8 pyro / red elemental blasts in our sideboard instead of 3-4? Can stop missteps, brainstorm, daze, stifle, ponder, FOW etc, eg their counter ability and engine. We could then get to our matron / ringleader engine having taken the steam out of all the dominant blue decks. Just a thought as in the past this has worked for me when i have correctly anticipated the meta.
Because it does not counter the most problematic spells on other decks, like NO RUGs Natural Order, or Stoneblades Stoneforger...
I really don't see a MU where I'd like to board 7-8 Pyros... (maybe Hive Mind...)

[BigBopper]

Actually, my major prolem would be affording the sideboard space. With all that equiments floating around (Jitte and Sword Fire/Ice are also seen elsewhere) I want to prepare for that-not to mention mass removal (Pyrokinesis/Perish) and Graveyard-hate...
I'm just happy not to see any Engeneered Plagues, so I don't have to board any pumping Lords.

[Guy I Don't Know]

What do you guys side out versus NO Rug, UW Stoneblade and Zoo?

[Amon Amarth]

Against Zoo it's usually -3 Piledriver +3 Pyrokinesis if I don't know what version they are playing. The only thing I'd board against NO RUG is Perish if you play Black. I'd take out a couple Piledrivers and a Chieftain. The only thing I would want against Stoneblade is artifact removal and maybe a couple Red Blasts or Therapies. Chieftain and Sharpshooter aren't that great here. Really, it depends on what kind of list you are playing. That would help.

[BigBopper]

Why would you board out piledriver against NORUG? He's the only guy that is a serious threat, cause with a couple of 'em on the table you can walk by Progenitus. So attacking is a considerable question for him. I would board out MM, Chieftain and you MD artifact hate.

[Guy I Don't Know]

This is the list I am playing. I know it is unconventional, so that is why I didn't post it in first place.

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger
2 Warren Insitigator
1 Lightning Crafter

16 Mountains
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault


SB:
2 Stingscourger(Show and Tell decks +2, Other big creature decks +1)
2 Warren Instigator(Some combo and control decks)
2 Relic of Progenitus(Dredge/Reanimator)
3 Tormod’s Crypt(Dredge/Reanimator)
3 Surgical Extraction(Intuition/Reanimator/Dredge)
2 Tarfire(Non Goyf/Nacatl creature decks)
1 Mogg Fanatic (Dredge, Small Creature decks)


This is what I am thinking of sideboarding at the moment:
NO RUG
-1 Lightning Crafter
+1 Mogg Fanatic

UW Stoneblade:
-2 Stingscourger
-1 Lightning Bolt
+2 Tarfire
+1 Warren Instigator

Zoo
-1 Goblin Piledriver
+1 Stingscourger

[Amon Amarth]

Why would you board out piledriver against NORUG? He's the only guy that is a serious threat, cause with a couple of 'em on the table you can walk by Progenitus. So attacking is a considerable question for him. I would board out MM, Chieftain and you MD artifact hate.

Because I'm trying to attrition them which they are ill-equipped to play that game. It also makes it very difficult to actually resolve NO if they have no Green creatures.

@Guy that boarding strategy looks fine although your SB is unconventional. Do you really need that much GY hate?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Do you really need that much GY hate?

I agree with Amon, more than half of your sideboard is dedicated to the yard.
Pyrokinesis is a great tool to be able to board in, especially in mono-red.
How's Mutavault working out for you?

[Guy I Don't Know]

Because I'm trying to attrition them which they are ill-equipped to play that game. It also makes it very difficult to actually resolve NO if they have no Green creatures.

@Guy that boarding strategy looks fine although your SB is unconventional. Do you really need that much GY hate?

I think that is good reasoning about Piledriver Amon. Although, I think them playing NO for Prog with no other blockers and then you killing them with Piledriver is a good option too... also Piledriver is only blocked successfully by Goyf.

My SB reflects my hate for losing to dredge. There really isn't many cards that are great in the sideboard.... I feel non combo decks I can win without SB too much (more likely oversideboard to lose) and Storm isn't played too much so most combo decks are graveyard based.


I agree with Amon, more than half of your sideboard is dedicated to the yard.
Pyrokinesis is a great tool to be able to board in, especially in mono-red.
How's Mutavault working out for you?

Mutavault is awesome. Would play mountain over vault to get more reliable Warren Instigator mana. Port seems bad, I want to be playing spells so don't use it in the first 5 turns or so. In the late game I would rather beat for 2 than tap a useless land... In addition lightning bolt gets rid of factories/vaults that would block so port isn't needed there much. Any of you have this happen: You port their land instead of playing spell, they tap land you ported, brainstorm, then fetch... :/ Plus mutavault gets pumped by chieftain :DDD

I tried pyrokinesis in the board, I would play it if it did six damage. Usually kills 1 creature, if lucky two (so you break even). I would only play it if I thought I could get a lot of 3 for 1s, like if Goblins or Elves got popular again. That was why people started playing pyrokinesis btw, for the mirror.

I am not too concerned of my "crumpy" SB, more wondering what are the worst cards in Goblins against different matchups.

Here are my plans so far:
Dredge
+1 Mogg Fanatic
+2 Relic of Progenitus
+3 Tormod's Crypt
+3 Surgical Extraction
-3 Lightning Bolt
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Lightning Crafter
-1 Aether Vial
-1 Goblin Ringleader

Show and Tell:
+2 Stingscourger
+2 Warren Instigator
+3 Surgical Extraction
-3 Lightning Bolt
-1 Lightning Crafter
-3 Gempalm Incinerator

Reanimator
-3 Lightning Bolt
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Lightning Crafter
+3 Surgical Extraction
+3 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Goblin Ringleader
+2 Warren Instigator
+2 Stingscourger
-4 Aether Vial


Merfolk/Elves/BW Midrange
-2 Stingscourger
+2 Tarfire

Burn
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Lightning Crafter
+2 Warren Instigator
+2 Tarfire

GW Maverick
+1 Mogg Fanatic
-1 Goblin Piledriver

Any decks I missed? Not sure with GW Maverick but want to follow the plan of not blocking and then at some point bounce/burn blockers and alpha strike for the win or 10+ damage, if not lethal hopefully putting up blockers with Lackey/Instigator Triggers. Additional Stingscourger's may be good for bouncing blockers and chumping big creatures in that matchup.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Any of you have this happen: You port their land instead of playing spell, they tap land you ported, brainstorm, then fetch... :/

That's why I play misstep :cool:


That was why people started playing pyrokinesis btw, for the mirror.

Didn't realize but makes sense.


Reanimator
-3 Lightning Bolt
-3 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Lightning Crafter
+3 Surgical Extraction
+3 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Goblin Ringleader
+2 Warren Instigator
+2 Stingscourger
-4 Aether Vial

You really put 12 cards in?? I disagree with taking Vial out against Reanimator, especially if you are mono-red. It's our only out to Iona naming red...

[BigBopper]

Especially vs. Maverick you can sometimes trade 4:2 with pyrokinesis, 'cause they have so much victims with thoughness=1. It's also good vs. NORUG, Affinity and killing SFM, which can be important turn 2 and I'm willing to trade 2:1 for him. Also nice synergy with Sharpshooter on the table. I still have 4 in mono-red SB. If splashing black I definetly suggest Perish and Warren Weirding MD!

[Amon Amarth]

Mogg Fanatic MD is a good way to kill random guys, especially trading it for a Clique, and it hates on Bridge from Below too. A MD Skirk Prospector does this as well.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Especially vs. Maverick you can sometimes trade 4:2 with pyrokinesis, 'cause they have so much victims with thoughness=1. It's also good vs. NORUG, Affinity and killing SFM, which can be important turn 2 and I'm willing to trade 2:1 for him. Also nice synergy with Sharpshooter on the table. I still have 4 in mono-red SB. If splashing black I definetly suggest Perish and Warren Weirding MD!

How popular is Maverick? I never seen someone play that deck but I don't play too much. If it was 5% or more of meta, that would sway me to play pyrokinesis maybe.

[QUOTE=Ace/Homebrew;583820 You really put 12 cards in?? I disagree with taking Vial out against Reanimator, especially if you are mono-red. It's our only out to Iona naming red...[/QUOTE]

What cards would you take out instead?

[Guy I Don't Know]

Especially vs. Maverick you can sometimes trade 4:2 with pyrokinesis, 'cause they have so much victims with thoughness=1. It's also good vs. NORUG, Affinity and killing SFM, which can be important turn 2 and I'm willing to trade 2:1 for him. Also nice synergy with Sharpshooter on the table. I still have 4 in mono-red SB. If splashing black I definetly suggest Perish and Warren Weirding MD!

How popular is Maverick? I never seen someone play that deck but I don't play too much. If it was 5% or more of meta, that would sway me to play pyrokinesis maybe.


You really put 12 cards in?? I disagree with taking Vial out against Reanimator, especially if you are mono-red. It's our only out to Iona naming red...

What cards would you take out instead?

[BigBopper]

Well, in my last tournament I got the feeling at least one third o all players were running this deck. It definetly is a DTB but more importantly almost every other deck has trouble with it (Dredge, Zoo, NORUG, ...)
How does actually Lightning Crafter work for you? I kind of like this guy but his cc is 4 and he can only shoot once. So Sharpshooter still seems the better alternative for me. I just wanted to know what you tagret with it, what you champion with him and how often it sees any playing, as well as when do your opponentens get rid of him, especially concerning the card you championed...????

[Ace/Homebrew]

What cards would you take out instead?

I don't see Instigator significantly improving this matchup...


he can only shoot once

re-read Lightning Crafter
The best cards to champion have an EtB ability, so Matron and Ringleader

[BigBopper]

re-read Lightning Crafter
The best cards to champion have an EtB ability, so Matron and Ringleader

I thought of Matron and Ringleader before. Even Tuktuk is an idea in times of batterscull and jitte, but still I can't see any huge advantage of him. Sharpshooter's ability to kill */1 guys in a row is just amazing. Especially when your opponent knows that you removed Ringleader, he might simply ignore him, because he's too slow-I don't get how he could shoot more than once, even after re-reading, except for the Kiki-Jiki-combo. One argument could be that he's a 3/3 dude and might do a good job in blocking-that's why I was asking for more information about him.

[Ace/Homebrew]

The way you first spoke of Lightning Crafter it sounded like you thought he was a once and done goblin like Mogg Fanatic. Yes you can only use him once a turn (outside of the Kiki combo).
He's great against Merfolk but I do not use him for fear of being 2-for-1'd if my opponent is holding removal.

[jrw1985]

Tournament Report
Just a small 5 Rounder where I went 4-1
Decklist Rgb Goblins
25 Core (-1 SGC)
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Seige-Gang Commander

13 Flex
4 Mental Misstep
1 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

22 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Mountains
6 Fetchlands

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyrokinesis
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Perish

R1 Deadguy Ale
G1 i win the role and open with a Lackey. He plays like 2 Mox Diamonds then casts Smallpox. I draw enough lands to stay in the game and manage to kill all his creatures before they become too relevant. W
I side out my MM since I saw only a single 1-drop from him all game. I bring in Ancient Grudge and Pyrokinesis.
G2 Around turn 4 I'm sitting on a Vial at 3 and a full hand with Warchief, Matron, and Sharpshooter. My opponent has a Bob online that got him an extra card his last turn. I play a 4th land and activate vial, bringing in Warchief. I want to get the Sharpshooter online with haste, but my opponent has mana open. I decide to cast the Matron first, to bait out removal on my Warchief. He responds by flashing down Aven Mindcensor in response. I grab a Gempalm from the top 4. Now with my opponent tapped out I'm free to cast Sharpshooter and clear the board. It went real downhill for him from there. W
1-0

R2 Pauper Storm
G1 This is just a less expensive TES deck, but still works very well. He goes off turn 3. L
G2 Side out Stingscourger and Gempalms and Sharpshooter and Weirding. I side in 4 Cabal Therapy and 2 REBs. I Cabal Therapy the crap outta him and play a slow, deliberate game of Wasting and Porting his mana sources so that he isn't able to go off, even though it keeps me from getting too many guys on the board. I figured he could kill me so quickly off of a single turn and it would take me 2 turns or more to kill him off of hardcasting my hand out, so I assumed he'd have the edge if I played that game. I get a few more guys into play eventually and he has to mini-storm to kill them off with a Grapeshot. I then land a lackey and win. W
Going into game 3 I realize that his deck is very reliant on its graveyard, since he runs full playsets of both Rite of Flame and Cabal Ritual. So, since I'm on the draw this game, I decided to side out 4 Aether vials and bring in 4 Leyline of the Void. Having faster interactions seemed most important.
G3 I we both mull to six, then I mull to 5. I find a hand with a Leyline and MM. I drop the Leyline and MM his Chromatic Star. I then land some lands and a lackey and use my manabase to attack his. Time is called in the match.I have 2 turns to kill him. I could kill him the very first of my last 2 turns, but he had mana open and if I committed to that line of play he could bounce my haste enabler before combat, survive, then combo me out on his turn. Since he had an obvious chance for survival I thought I should hit him for a few only, then use my lands to lock his next turn out, then kill him on my last turn. So i only hit him for a few. EOT he Echoing Truths my Leyline, but it's too late and he doesn't have enough mana to make his turn work. The last turn I win. W
2-0

R3 UW Stoneblade Visions
G1 Don't remember much, but I won. W
I sided in Pyrokinesis and Ancient Grudge for I don't even know what.
G2 All I remembered about this game is I Pyro'd 2 Spellstutter Sprites and a Stoneforge Mystic, but somehow didn't win the game. oh yeah, I drew kind dead, getting like Lackeys and Vials when I needed Matrons and Ringleaders. L
I sided in some REBs for I don't know what.
G3 I mulled to 4. Oops.
2-1

R4 Aggro Loam
G1 I play fetch, mountain, Vial. My opponent is genuinely confused and doesn't know that i play Goblins almost exclusively. When I activate Vial at 1 and put nothing into play he's really miffed. Then I cast like Matron and now he knows what's what. He messes up my manabase and gets a few KotRs and a maze of Ith online, but I've got Sharpshooter to help force damage through. W
I side in 4 Leyline of the void since Aggro Loam is essentially a recursion deck.
G2 I have 3 Vials, 3 Goblins, and a Wasteland. Up 1 game? Keep. I even made a joke before the game about having 3 vials in play. Weird. I play 2 Vials. he sacks 2 mountains to cast Pulverize. I vial a Lackey in in response. I then cast my third Vial and fuck up his world. W
3-1

R5 Affinity
G1 I won the dice roll and led with a Lackey. He had mulled to 6 and led with some junk and a Memnite. I gempalmed the memnite and put something unpleasant into play. W
i sided in Pyro and Ancient Grudge.
G2 He got stupid Etched champion online and put a cranial plating on it. L
G3 He got a Master of Etherium, Etched champion, and a Myr Enforcer online. He attacked me down to 9 with a Champion with a C Plating. I blew up the plating. He then couldn't attack profitably once I could chump block Mater of Etherium with Piledriver. We kinda stalemated for a while, but I kept playing more guys. Finally it looks like he's about to kill me next turn, so I Matron into Stingscourger and another Piledriver, and Piledrive over his Master of etherium after bouncing his Enforcer. Close game.

So there you have it. 4-1. Not bad. And my loss to UW Stoneblade came after he had a miraculous recovery one game and I mulled to 4 in the other. MM didn't see too much play but did help against Storm. Cabal Therapy was great, though a little awkward flashing it back. Ancient Grudge was just nasty all day. Good times.

Also, what would you think of this as a potential bomb goblin?

Goblin X 1R
2/2
When Goblin X enters the battlefield reveal the top card of your library. If it is a Goblin creature you may put it onto the battlefield.

Goblin Y 1RR
3/1
Haste
Goblin Cascade: When you cast this spell, reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a Goblin card of cmc less than Goblin Y. You may cast that spell without paying its mana cost.

These could be fun. It's really too bad that Wizards never made a Goblin with the cascade mechanic. It's a perfect mechanic for the goblins' flavor anyway.

[Amon Amarth]

Grats.

I'd say the 2nd one is more likely too see play since it's less mana intensive and isn't dependent on luck.

[ScatmanX]

Nice report jrw. If I was to play Goblins, would be something similar to that list.

And those goblins you presented are completely printable. They'd be very fun to try out.

[orcanmail]

Against decks packing progenitus, emrikul, and other untargetable fatties, i use 3 retribution of the meek, sideboarding out my 3 swords to plowshares.
With disenchants in th SB, white seems to have a response that other splashes don't.
Black has perish, green krosan grips etc, but white has both.
Mental missteps can also of course still be used with the white splash, but they do compete for the swords to plowshares slots in the main deck.

[BigBopper]

With disenchants in th SB, white seems to have a response that other splashes don't.
Black has perish, green krosan grips etc, but white has both.

That's why splashing both makes the most sense to me. Although I don't see that much need for KGrip right now, maybe for Pernious Deed, but Ancient Grudge is a 2 for 1 most games.


Mental missteps can also of course still be used with the white splash, but they do compete for the swords to plowshares slots in the main deck.

With one of these cards in hand MM > StP, when topdecked most of the time StP might seem better, cause you play around Eternal Witness, but since MM can stop major removal (Bolt, StP, Thoughtsize) I would relay on it.

For Emrakul by Show and Tell, Stinger is a nice answer and for Progenitus Warren Weirding is a solution that white doesn't offer. Although my opponents playing NO RUG usually had a problem keeping a creature alive to play NO with all that removal the list offers (I still prefer tarfire over Chieftain).

[orcanmail]

It's also the fact that missteps can target brainstorms that are making me reconsider them over stp as well. plus the tempo gain.



That's why splashing both makes the most sense to me. Although I don't see that much need for KGrip right now, maybe for Pernious Deed, but Ancient Grudge is a 2 for 1 most games.



With one of these cards in hand MM > StP, when topdecked most of the time StP might seem better, cause you play around Eternal Witness, but since MM can stop major removal (Bolt, StP, Thoughtsize) I would relay on it.

For Emrakul by Show and Tell, Stinger is a nice answer and for Progenitus Warren Weirding is a solution that white doesn't offer. Although my opponents playing NO RUG usually had a problem keeping a creature alive to play NO with all that removal the list offers (I still prefer tarfire over Chieftain).

[cloudshade]

if one goes Rb all the way, would boggart mob be an option?

[jrw1985]

Mental Misstep is banned.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/161a

[KobeBryan]

Welcome back.

[Amon Amarth]

I disliked working for my wins anyways.

[orcanmail]

Well that solves my dilemna over Mental Misstep. I'll stick to stp. I wonder how this banning however will change the meta once more?

[GoboLord]

I really don't want to crash the party, but I fear that Goblins are even less playable now than before.

For the last few months Jon (jrw1985) has been the only one reporting good results with Goblins on a regular basis. However, what made his list different from most other decklists was the inclusion of a full playset of Mental Misstep.
Secondly, what made Goblins such a poor deck lately was not Mental Misstep but the rise of Stoneforge-strategies and several other decks that are just too good preboard for Goblins to stand a chance. A playset of Missteps seemed to help Jon to drag those decks down on a level where he could beat them.
Now, call me a pessimist, but IMO there is no "dragging down unfair decks" anymore.

[orcanmail]

Our major problem seems to be that we rely on our core functioning, and that means we really do need our lackeys.. If lackeys connect then we can play more siege gangs and pump piledrivers.
So Mental Missstep did help protect lackeys from stp & l.bolts, but now it has been banned how else do we protect our lackeys?
What about mother of runes? in my white list i would just replace my stps, although this would mean i have less removal however it might help my lackeys and afterwards piledrivers. Of course this requires an extra turn to drop the mother of runes first.
after all going all out with instigators and chieftains doesn't seem to race other decks enough, so i fall back to stalling and playing for my matrons and ringleaders for the mid game, or the gang bang explosive start.
Because our core is 26 cards with a minimum of 22 land and we need 30 goblins, we don't have many non goblin / non vial free slots ( eg 3-4 cards), but we need something. Are mother of runes playable for us?


I really don't want to crash the party, but I fear that Goblins are even less playable now than before.

For the last few months Jon (jrw1985) has been the only one reporting good results with Goblins on a regular basis. However, what made his list different from most other decklists was the inclusion of a full playset of Mental Misstep.
Secondly, what made Goblins such a poor deck lately was not Mental Misstep but the rise of Stoneforge-strategies and several other decks that are just too good preboard for Goblins to stand a chance. A playset of Missteps seemed to help Jon to drag those decks down on a level where he could beat them.
Now, call me a pessimist, but IMO there is no "dragging down unfair decks" anymore.

[Dia_Bot]

Correct me if I'm wrong (relatively new to Legacy), but wasn't it Mental Misstep that allowed Mystic decks to come to power in the first place?


I'm pretty sure it was batterskull.

[GoboLord]

Correct me if I'm wrong (relatively new to Legacy), but wasn't it Mental Misstep that allowed Mystic decks to come to power in the first place?


No, actually it was Batterskull who empowered them. The many non-U Stoneforge-strategies (like Maverick, Patriot) have been (and will be) much more problematic than UW-Stoneblade.

[Amon Amarth]

On the bright side, if this deck isn't competitive anymore that makes it much more likely they will unban Recruiter in December.

Edit: And on a slightly more constructive note if the meta shifts to a direction where we need to answer creatures you can just switch your MM's for Bolts.

[Talanos]

Mental Misstep was banned today. I think the next step is to play a set of bolts or tarfires to deal with turn 2 mystics. Hopefully we should be able to keep them off Batterskull mana.

Resurgence?

[lebarion]

I think Goblins will be back to the radar, even if not at full power. In fact, it's been a long time since goblins were at full power, so nothing new here.
Goblins had to play Misstep to handle opposing missteps. Without opposing missteps, it will be harder for opponents to handle first turn vials, and they'll have to spend removal or trade 1-drops with lackey. If they don't have removal/one-drops, we know what happens.
Also, decks that have a good early-game are favored in an environment without misstep.
Last, if equipment is a problem, we can always splash green for TSH, Ancient Grudge or Krosan Grip.

[DragoFireheart]

Goblin players, welcome back.

[wolfstorm]

Goblin players, welcome back.

Woot :) missed my little green men.

[Justin]

Yeah, the banning of Mental Misstep certainly helps Goblins to at least become a tier-two deck again. It had completely fallen off the map in large part because matchups with blue decks that were previously favorable became non-favorable because vial and lackey could be countered much easier. Now, in a post-misstep Legacy, Goblins becomes a viable choice against a heavy-blue meta that is light on combo decks.

[TheShaun]

I for one look forward to being terrified at the sight of a pesky little 1/1 on turn 1 sitting across the table from me again. Just please, don't hit me in the face.

[Annatar]

Am I the only one who is concerned that with MM out of the picture our combo matchup is back in the pits? I use to play the full playset and was loving it.

I'm not overly concerned with Batterskull and Stoneforge Mystic because I didn't need MM to beat those cards (just Tarfire which might be even better now with MM gone) but I seriously have no idea how to deal with combo decks now...

[ThoSha]

Mental Misstep is dead, long lives Gutshot :))

[Amon Amarth]

Combo decks are still problematic like they've always been. It's too soon to tell what flavor of storm will make a resurgence. Cabal Therapy and REB are pretty good against High Tide and Chalice of the Void is good against the Dark Ritual variants.

... I also recommend becoming a religious man.

[ScatmanX]

Combo will be as hard as it was before. I used to run 6-8 combo hate sb (between ReB, Chalice, Trap, Cabal, Squad, Thorn...).
Max on ReBs because of Merfolk and CB. It is also useful vs Storm.
We need Grave-Hate again, more than ever. If it can be useful against Storm, better.
My MD will be tailored to fight creature decks, with Tarfires and stuff. SB against broken stuff.

I think goblins can be great in the new environment.

[Annatar]

I haven't actually had the chance to use Chalice against combo decks but it sound's decent. I presume one plays it for 0 against ANT, to stop them from casting their artifact mana, or maybe set it to 1 against high tide and such?

Also, one of the cards the beats my face more often then not is Dueling Grounds. Has anyone had any similar experiences with that card?

[BigBopper]

I still have mixed feelings about MM-banning. Can't fight StP anymore or Combo Brainstorm or the Bolt, that hindered my lethal Piledriver from killing the opponent...
So are there any ideas for the free spots? I acutally like mother of runes on second thought, cause it makes lackey connect even lategame and drop an important guy.
Before packing Bolts, I'd play 1-2 Pyrokinesis MD, cause it trades 2 to 1-4 and doesn't require mana at all.
I was playing 2 Tarfires already, so maybe making it a playset? What about Mogg Fanatic, MWM or even Goblin Guide to increase the pressure?
I still believe splashing black is a great idea these days, cause so many green creatures are walking tall and perish is a bomb. For artifact hate I got to like Tuktuk but Ancient Grudge is still a 1 for 2 so thoughts about that?
I'd like to get some nice arguments for splashing white before we can jump up and down, that MM is gone.

[ThoSha]

I was not kidding btw.
Gutshot is really good right now :D just tested in in a few games
and its a tempo bomb against many targets.

[bruizar]

Sad to see misstep go. next time, either don't print cards like these, or leave them unbanned.

[Annatar]

I was not kidding btw.
Gutshot is really good right now :D just tested in in a few games
and its a tempo bomb against many targets.

My problem with it and Mogg Fanatic is that they can't take out a Stoneforge Mystic. You REALLY need to take that guy out before they cheat Batterskull in.

[ThoSha]

Can't have it all i guess.
I'd rather kill Vendillion Clique, Noble Hierarch, Birds,
Mother of Runes or Bob without paying mana for it.

Cards that come to mind for dealing with the SFM/Batterskull Problem:
Warren Weirding
Tin-Street Hooligan
Gempalm Incinerator
Krosan Grip
Multiple Gutshots(lolz)

[Talanos]

I agree that a burn spell is superior to Fanatic. SFM is certainly viable in the new meta; many versions didn't even run MM to begin with. If they need 5 mana at sorcery speed to cast Batterskull, we can reliably keep them off it long enough to win. If they can instant play a Batterskull on 3 mana, it's harder to pull through. Now granted, we could just rely on post board artifact hate, but I want a good game 1 as well if I can do it through a versatile card.

I think the question is Bolt vs. Tarfire. Now, about a year about, everyone said that Tarfire was not viable, and many played Bolt. Why? I contend the answer is Zoo. Recently, with Zoo out of the picture b/c of MM, everyone went to Tarfire since Nacatl wasn't a concern. However, in the new meta, Zoo is back in play and sure to be a popular deck, if for no other reason than people who own it will be wanting to play their one drops again.

Bolt may be the way to go. I am going to test the following flex slot configuration:

4 Bolt
2 Warren Wierding
3 Gempalm
2 MWM
1 Hooligan

The idea is to have a toolbox of removal. MWM is a concession to my feeling that aggro will make a resurgence, and to help fuel Gempalm for more consistent removal.

What I like about Bolt is that it also gives you a reasonable chance at shooting down an early Tarmo or Knight, which is something that Tarfire will almost never do. It deals with Nacatl, which I predict will make a comeback. Like Tarfire, it gives you the outs to Heirarch, SFM, Bob, and Mother.

The only real drawback to Bolt is that you can't draw them off your Ringleaders. I need to test this more, but my feeling is that by the time you are hitting Ringleaders, you don't really need the burn to win. You can power through with Gempalms, WW, and just plain brute force (ie, throw more goblins at the problem). My initial feeling is that I'd rather have the superior answer on turns 1-4 to as many problem creatures as I can than something that fuels late game card advantage. Hence, my hypothesis is that Bolt > Tarfire > Fanatic.

I have 30 goblins in the deck, so if I get Ringleaders up and running, I should still average 2 cards per reveal.

Proposed Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Thorn
3 Perish
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Sharpshooter

Perish over Pyro because my main deck removal handles things that Pyro would handle. I want outs to giant Knights, Progenitus, and late game Goyfs. Sharpshooter also helps in matchups that Pyro would come in for.

Thoughts welcome.

[Rizso]

1Dropp zoo was pretty damn good in the mm metagame, if it wouldnt then it wouldnt be a deck to beat right? Zoo never fell of the scene.

Seen a couple of goblin decks running tuk-tuk Scrapers as their artifact hating Goblin. Thought Tin Street Hooligan is alot faster but works less of vials and lackey / instigator.

[Serva]

I've been playing the deck for a while and pre-MM I used to run a playset of bolts since I don't feel four Incinerators is enough removal for my meta. Tarfires are nice since you can hit them with Ringleader, but I think I will go back to bolts because of the 'Goyf factor. It also adds a tad more reach.

Unlike what various people (who propably haven't played the deck much if at all) claim in articles, I've found that hitting just one goblin off of Ringleader is usually enough. Even scrying four lands/vial(s) to the bottom of your deck is not terrible late game.

[BigBopper]

I've been playing the deck for a while and pre-MM I used to run a playset of bolts since I don't feel four Incinerators is enough removal for my meta. Tarfires are nice since you can hit them with Ringleader, but I think I will go back to bolts because of the 'Goyf factor. It also adds a tad more reach.

Unlike what various people (who propably haven't played the deck much if at all) claim in articles, I've found that hitting just one goblin off of Ringleader is usually enough. Even scrying four lands/vial(s) to the bottom of your deck is not terrible late game.

I also have picked up a Tarfire with Matron, cause I didn't have the mana left to play an Incinerator. I'm not sure about Bolt>Tarfire in goblins.
Still I think since everyone takes out Pyrokinesis from SB with the argument of spot removal MD, why don't we play Kinesis MD instead of Bolts? They are both not tutorable and are prior for removing creatures, than hitting faces. So my list would look like this:

2 Bolts
2 Kinesis
2 Tarfire
1 Warren Weirding
3 Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Sharpshooter
1 TSH
(-1 SGC in Core)

[orcanmail]

Well here's my list with a white splash

Maindeck - Stalling Marshall with White Splash

4 vials
4 Lackeys
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mogg War Marshall
4 Piledrivers
4 Gempalms
4 Matrons
4 Warchiefs
4 Ringleaders
3 Siege Gangs

22 Land
4 wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Plateau
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountains

Sideboard

1 Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger ( v Emrikul )
3 Retribution of the Meek ( v Progenitus )
4 Disenchant ( v equipment, Moat,E.plague etc )
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Chalice of the Void ( Replaced 3 REB now MM banned and I fear Combo )

OK I've 3 siege gangs, but I find it hard to drop to 2 as I hope for Lackey > Siege Gang starts, followed up by Piledrivers. Failing that I look for synergy from MWM to pump piledrivers, and then matron ringleader to overwhelm with goblins mid game. Of course I use a full set of Ports and wastelands as a central part of the strategy.

I know many fellow warchiefs discard the white splash, but at the start of this new thread even Gobbolord himself questioned if it should be looked at more closely.

The SB is meant to try and cover all eventualities in an unknown meta. The 4th Disenchant is just personal preference as I hate scooping to Moat.



I still have mixed feelings about MM-banning. Can't fight StP anymore or Combo Brainstorm or the Bolt, that hindered my lethal Piledriver from killing the opponent...
So are there any ideas for the free spots? I acutally like mother of runes on second thought, cause it makes lackey connect even lategame and drop an important guy.
Before packing Bolts, I'd play 1-2 Pyrokinesis MD, cause it trades 2 to 1-4 and doesn't require mana at all.
I was playing 2 Tarfires already, so maybe making it a playset? What about Mogg Fanatic, MWM or even Goblin Guide to increase the pressure?
I still believe splashing black is a great idea these days, cause so many green creatures are walking tall and perish is a bomb. For artifact hate I got to like Tuktuk but Ancient Grudge is still a 1 for 2 so thoughts about that?
I'd like to get some nice arguments for splashing white before we can jump up and down, that MM is gone.

[Annatar]

Lightning Bolt seems better but the fact that I can't search for it keeps me away from playing it. Tarfire might not be at it's best against Zoo but it's advantages against other decks make up for that. Against zoo I wouldn't rely so heavily on Gempalm Incinerator in game one since more often then not you won't have enough goblins to deal with their creatures.
Stingscourger does a better job against the critters that matter (Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary); most of the time I would play it over edict effects since it targets (bouncing Emrakul with their own Show and Tell is sweet).

Gut Shot feels to narrow at this point. Free spells are the rage but it still doesn't reliably kill Stoneforge Mystic, whereas Tarfire kills it and all the one drops mentioned in favor of Gut Shot plus it's tutorable.

[Charlatan]

I want to ask you something: I've been playing gobbos for years, even with the MM's rise, i didn't quit the deck.

And by testing the deck, I'm really confused about rishadan and wastelnd main purposes. I've been playing with out wastelands, just 3 rishadan and I can say that I don't miss wastes. I think that I will cut port too.

I prefer to improove matrons targets and just play Aggro with 3 lords effects and 6 haste effects and incresaing the chances in revealing more goobos with ringleader.

My list is:

// Lands
5 [M11] Mountain (3)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Badlands
2 [R] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [M11] Goblin Chieftain
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [10E] Goblin King
2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
1 [PLC] Stingscourger

// Spells
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

Any thoughts?

[ScatmanX]

I played Bolt with success because 3 toughness guys were more present back in the days (And Bolt was way better in the Vengevine era, killing the namesake creature, Rootwalla, and Mongrael usually). Now, if goyfless-Maverick continue to perform well (at least over here) Tarfire seems better, increasing the consistency of the deck, while dealing with their problematic creatures.

[Davran]

And by testing the deck, I'm really confused about rishadan and wastelnd main purposes. I've been playing with out wastelands, just 3 rishadan and I can say that I don't miss wastes. I think that I will cut port too.

I'm not sure what your meta looks like, but I would never cut Wasteland. I've won a fair number of games simply by keeping my opponent off of 3 mana. Wasteland is also invaluable against Mutavault during a grinding Fish match, punishes newer players for sketchy hand keeps and eats greedy mana bases for breakfast. I've even blown out a doomsday player with a mised waste on his Shelldock Isle. The look on his face was priceless.

Port, on the other hand, is hit and miss. When it's good, it's good. When it isn't, I'm always wishing it was a mountain. I run 3 in my main due to availability, but I have yet to find myself wanting a 4th.

[Charlatan]

I would never cut Wasteland. I've won a fair number of games simply by keeping my opponent off of 3 mana. Wasteland is also invaluable against Mutavault during a grinding Fish match...

Ok, I got your point. Wasteland is a great card and can win a game by destroyng a non-basic land, I got it.

But the next time that you play goblins thnks if the wasteland woulnbt be better a goblin/mountain. Cause I just feel that is better to cast a creature, since our mana curve has a lot of 3cmc cards and I win more games tutoring some goblin then crackling wasteland.

I just don't see wasteland in the strategy of this deck. I just prefer ti play aggro, and hooligans, lords and matrons helped me a lot....

[Annatar]

Ok, I got your point. Wasteland is a great card and can win a game by destroyng a non-basic land, I got it.

But the next time that you play goblins thnks if the wasteland woulnbt be better a goblin/mountain. Cause I just feel that is better to cast a creature, since our mana curve has a lot of 3cmc cards and I win more games tutoring some goblin then crackling wasteland.

I just don't see wasteland in the strategy of this deck. I just prefer ti play aggro, and hooligans, lords and matrons helped me a lot....


With AEther Vial you can do both. While you are useing Wasteland and Rishadan Port to do a number on their mana base, Vial is ticking away and dropping goblins into play free of charge at instant speed and through counters.

One could say it's simmilar to the way suicide decks operated a few years back, with a significant difference. While those decks had to chose weather to apply pressure or disruption Goblins don't have to make that kind of a sacrifice because they can do both simultaneously.

[The Big Ragu]

Wasteland is an all star player in this deck. Arguing against its supreme level of usefulness is ridiculous.

[qazwer]

Hello guys, a recently bought mono red goblin deck, but i still have no wasteland and no port. Do you think it's worth playing this deck without these lands? It will take me few months to buy these lands and I'm wondering if it's worth taking this deck to the tournament? Or is it better to take another deck with me?

[andrebonotto]

Greetings for all of you guys,


I've been following this thread for a long time, just learning with the Goblins Lords, but never having any relevant thing to comment.

Well, this time I write to seek for some piece of advice:


I will play a tournament this Saturday with a Rg Goblin list and I plan to use 4 Mental Misstep maindeck. Since it will be banned from October on, (in a few days!) I wanted just to give a last try (it’s really my only try) at jwr1985’s plan.


You guys who have played with MM have any good advice on playing this card? (e.g.: “counter the first thing you get a chance to”; or “save it to protect your Lackey”; etc.)

I think I’ll use the following sideboard:

1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst (or Chalice of the Void?)

Would you recommend siding out MM in any matchup? What to side in in place of it?



Also… on my testing, I found out I am not to confident on playing against Merfolk. I would really like to have some tips from you, on playing against them.
How am I supposed to develop my strategy line / What do I need mostly to search for?

a) Guarantee any first drop?
b) Guarantee Vial?
c) (a) or (b) + Mental Misstep as backup?
d) Look for Piledriver as soon as possible?
e) Try to gain as much card advantage as soon as possible?
f) other…

I think I get a little lost between these plans…


Any help is appreciated.

[andrebonotto]

Wasteland is an all star player in this deck. Arguing against its supreme level of usefulness is ridiculous.

I liked so much the conciseness of the wisdom contained on your phrase that I have considered to make it a signature quote... :smile:

[BigBopper]

You guys who have played with MM have any good advice on playing this card? (e.g.: “counter the first thing you get a chance to”; or “save it to protect your Lackey”; etc.)


I never had the feeling that MM was a dead card. Even in lategame I got to counter Noble Hirachs and others. So it's a good thing to keep 4 of them MD game 1. For your early game, there is not so much to protect your lackey. When you play Mountain, Lackey, Go, I would counter whatever he's playing (Removal, Creature, Brainstorm). I'd even counter his one drop if you're on the draw, 'cause turn 2 you might see goyf or SFM.

For the plan against Merfolk: I'd stick to the one-drops. They need to have an answer for anything you play, while Vial is better than Lackey in that matchup. But even if turn 1 lackey is countered and you have MWM or Piledriver in hand and even warchief, just go for it, what better can you draw if you mull down. Especially when you mull down, you will loose card advantage...

[jrw1985]

Greetings for all of you guys,


I've been following this thread for a long time, just learning with the Goblins Lords, but never having any relevant thing to comment.

Well, this time I write to seek for some piece of advice:


I will play a tournament this Saturday with a Rg Goblin list and I plan to use 4 Mental Misstep maindeck. Since it will be banned from October on, (in a few days!) I wanted just to give a last try (it’s really my only try) at jwr1985’s plan.


You guys who have played with MM have any good advice on playing this card? (e.g.: “counter the first thing you get a chance to”; or “save it to protect your Lackey”; etc.)

I think I’ll use the following sideboard:

1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst (or Chalice of the Void?)

Would you recommend siding out MM in any matchup? What to side in in place of it?



Also… on my testing, I found out I am not to confident on playing against Merfolk. I would really like to have some tips from you, on playing against them.
How am I supposed to develop my strategy line / What do I need mostly to search for?

a) Guarantee any first drop?
b) Guarantee Vial?
c) (a) or (b) + Mental Misstep as backup?
d) Look for Piledriver as soon as possible?
e) Try to gain as much card advantage as soon as possible?
f) other…

I think I get a little lost between these plans…


Any help is appreciated.

On playing MM- Counter the first 1cmc spell they play. I almost always mull to a Lackey or Vial, so if I'm lucky enough to also have a MM I use it at the first possible opportunity to help my guys gain tempo. You'll usually use it on another MM, a removal spell, or a Brainstorm. But yes, I would try using it on the first 1 drop they cast, if only because you can't be certain you'll get another chance to use it. Don't bother trying to save MM to protect your Lackey with. Your opponent can always just play a Goyf to shut your Lackey down.

Sideboard- Cheiftain seems weak. I'd cut him for a 4th Crypt or a Relic. 3 Pieces of GY hate never seems to be enough. Also, Sharpshooter is good enough for the Maindeck. If you get the Sharpshooter and Chieftain out of your sideboard you'll have room for 2 Red Elemental Blasts which can really help again Merfolk and Combo.

Sideboarding- Clearly anything with Stoneforge Mystic gets the Ancient Grudges in. Aside from that the SB is pretty easy. Thorn for decks that try to play tons of non-creature spells (Storm, Enchantress), Crypts for Recursion decks (Dredge, Aggro Loam, Reanimator), Pyros for anything with creatures (Zoo, Goblins, whathaveyou).

Siding out MM- Clearly you should side it out if you're playing manaless Dredge or Aggro-Loam (neither relies on 1 cc spells). Pay attention to the number of 1 cmc spells you see your opponent cast Game 1. If you only see 1 or 2 you can probably do without the MMs.

Merfolk- You want a Lackey or Vial. It doesn't matter which. You want to use Gempalms to gain card advantage and keep them from building a board. If you are on the draw and they cast a T1 Vial try countering it with MM. If they land a Vial, don't worry about it. They can't use it to play card drawing creatures to the extent that you can. Piledriver is your MVP. You can sometimes win with one big swing if the board is stalemated. Just Waste out their Mutavaults and turn all your guys sideways. More often than not they don't have the removal piece they need and they're dead to Pro Blue. Anyway, the MVPs of the Merfolk matchup are Piledriver, Gempalm, and Sharpshooter.

You were wondering...
a) Guarantee any first drop?
Yes, mull to a Lackey or Vial.
b) Guarantee Vial?
No, guaranteed Lackey/Vial.
c) (a) or (b) + Mental Misstep as backup?
If you have MM then you're looking good, but Lackey/Vial is more important.
d) Look for Piledriver as soon as possible?
He's pretty awesome, and you'll often need him to chump block and shut down blue dudes carrying Jittes.
e) Try to gain as much card advantage as soon as possible?
Not as soon as possible. That's a long game strategy.
f) other…
So many possibilities...

I hope I helped.

[andrebonotto]

I never had the feeling that MM was a dead card. Even in lategame I got to counter Noble Hirachs and others. So it's a good thing to keep 4 of them MD game 1. For your early game, there is not so much to protect your lackey. When you play Mountain, Lackey, Go, I would counter whatever he's playing (Removal, Creature, Brainstorm). I'd even counter his one drop if you're on the draw, 'cause turn 2 you might see goyf or SFM.

For the plan against Merfolk: I'd stick to the one-drops. They need to have an answer for anything you play, while Vial is better than Lackey in that matchup. But even if turn 1 lackey is countered and you have MWM or Piledriver in hand and even warchief, just go for it, what better can you draw if you mull down. Especially when you mull down, you will loose card advantage...

Hmm... that is something I was a bit worried about: "MM being a dead card".

But according to what you (and jwr1985) say, this is not really the case. Good.

Regarding the Merfolk match up, sometimes I get tempted to keep a (initial) hand without a 1st drop, but with good resources, like, for example: a Piledriver, a Warchief and a Matron.

Even then, would you suggest me to maintain the principle of “mulliganing after a 1st drop”?


(Thank you for the help!)

[andrebonotto]

On playing MM- Counter the first 1cmc spell they play. I almost always mull to a Lackey or Vial, so if I'm lucky enough to also have a MM I use it at the first possible opportunity to help my guys gain tempo. You'll usually use it on another MM, a removal spell, or a Brainstorm. But yes, I would try using it on the first 1 drop they cast, if only because you can't be certain you'll get another chance to use it. Don't bother trying to save MM to protect your Lackey with. Your opponent can always just play a Goyf to shut your Lackey down.

Sideboard- Cheiftain seems weak. I'd cut him for a 4th Crypt or a Relic. 3 Pieces of GY hate never seems to be enough. Also, Sharpshooter is good enough for the Maindeck. If you get the Sharpshooter and Chieftain out of your sideboard you'll have room for 2 Red Elemental Blasts which can really help again Merfolk and Combo.

Sideboarding- Clearly anything with Stoneforge Mystic gets the Ancient Grudges in. Aside from that the SB is pretty easy. Thorn for decks that try to play tons of non-creature spells (Storm, Enchantress), Crypts for Recursion decks (Dredge, Aggro Loam, Reanimator), Pyros for anything with creatures (Zoo, Goblins, whathaveyou).

Siding out MM- Clearly you should side it out if you're playing manaless Dredge or Aggro-Loam (neither relies on 1 cc spells). Pay attention to the number of 1 cmc spells you see your opponent cast Game 1. If you only see 1 or 2 you can probably do without the MMs.

Merfolk- You want a Lackey or Vial. It doesn't matter which. You want to use Gempalms to gain card advantage and keep them from building a board. If you are on the draw and they cast a T1 Vial try countering it with MM. If they land a Vial, don't worry about it. They can't use it to play card drawing creatures to the extent that you can. Piledriver is your MVP. You can sometimes win with one big swing if the board is stalemated. Just Waste out their Mutavaults and turn all your guys sideways. More often than not they don't have the removal piece they need and they're dead to Pro Blue. Anyway, the MVPs of the Merfolk matchup are Piledriver, Gempalm, and Sharpshooter.

You were wondering...
a) Guarantee any first drop?
Yes, mull to a Lackey or Vial.
b) Guarantee Vial?
No, guaranteed Lackey/Vial.
c) (a) or (b) + Mental Misstep as backup?
If you have MM then you're looking good, but Lackey/Vial is more important.
d) Look for Piledriver as soon as possible?
He's pretty awesome, and you'll often need him to chump block and shut down blue dudes carrying Jittes.
e) Try to gain as much card advantage as soon as possible?
Not as soon as possible. That's a long game strategy.
f) other…
So many possibilities...

I hope I helped.



First of all, I thank you for all the valuable information!


About the topics:

Mental Misstep:
I think now I’m getting the point: “Go after the 1st drops. If by chance, I get a MM with it, good! If not, keep to the main plan.”


Sideboard:
I’m not sure what to cut maindeck to fit in Chieftain and Sharpshooter and make room for 2 more cards in the sideboard. Maybe it’ll help if I present the list I intend to play:

LANDS (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
6 Red Fetches
6 Mountain

CORE (25)
-1 SGC

FLEX (13)
4 Mental Misstep
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
3 Tarfire (I'm trying to prevent me from loosing to SFM / Batterskull. Any other option would be better here?)
1 Goblin Chieftain (in addition I was thinking of running another one on the sideboard, like I wrote before)
1 TSH

Maybe should I just cut the TSH for Sharpshooter, and get rid of the other Chieftain copy on the sideboard?
This way, will I not suffer too much from artifact locks / attacks in Game 1? I guess I’m a little afraid of not having responses for everything they throw at me…


Sideboarding:
Against SFM’s decks, would it be good to side in the Pyrokinesis as well? Or is it too much, and only the Grudges do the work? (In this case, should I mull after a Grudge?)
The same think against Affinity: should I use Pyros and Grudges?
Would it be good to run Pyrokinesis against Merfolk too? In these situations, what to take out for the sideboarded cards?


Merfolk:
On the Merfolk match up, if by any chance I am able to place a 1st drop and them a Matron in play, what it would be better to search for?

About “Wasting their Mutavault”, if I start with/draw a Wasteland, should I save it in hand to waste as a “surprise effect”? Even if I don’t have many lands?
Or should I just play it and wait for then to play a Mutavault? (There's a risk of them wasting my Wasteland, in this case)

For me, Sharpshooter seemed bad against Merfolk, you know, because all their lords that pump their creatures really big... What would be the proper use of it, in this case?



I know that’s too much questions in a too short time, but I think there are so much for me to learn on the details of "fine-playing" Goblins, and I really want to make all the right plays on the tournament I’ll play in two days :tongue:

[Annatar]

Sideboarding:
Against SFM’s decks, would it be good to side in the Pyrokinesis as well? Or is it too much, and only the Grudges do the work? (In this case, should I mull after a Grudge?)
The same think against Affinity: should I use Pyros and Grudges?
Would it be good to run Pyrokinesis against Merfolk too? In these situations, what to take out for the sideboarded cards?


Merfolk:
On the Merfolk match up, if by any chance I am able to place a 1st drop and them a Matron in play, what it would be better to search for?

About “Wasting their Mutavault”, if I start with/draw a Wasteland, should I save it in hand to waste as a “surprise effect”? Even if I don’t have many lands?
Or should I just play it and wait for then to play a Mutavault? (There's a risk of them wasting my Wasteland, in this case)

For me, Sharpshooter seemed bad against Merfolk, you know, because all their lords that pump their creatures really big... What would be the proper use of it, in this case?



I know that’s too much questions in a too short time, but I think there are so much for me to learn on the details of "fine-playing" Goblins, and I really want to make all the right plays on the tournament I’ll play in two days :tongue:


Personally, just having Tarfire and maybe an extra Tin Street Hooligan was sufficient against Mystic/Batterskull. You also have Gempalms but think those are somewhat situational. All their equipment won't matter squat if they don't have creatures to attach them to. Luckully, most of those can be burned out or bounced if they get too big.

As far as affinity is concerned just grudge the snot out of them. Pyrokinesis isn't that necessary but it's better to have it then something that is completely useless in the matchup (Mental Misstep).

Against Merfolk I side out Tarfire by default since it's just a very bad Pyroblast in this matchup. Other thing you could live without would probably be the Hooligan and Stingscoruger, but this is dependant on your actuall sideboard.

Other Merfolk questions: normally I try not to go all in in a rush. Depending on your hand, you can search for something to make sure that the lackey will connect again (Gempalm Incinerator or maybe even Tarfire but Gempalm is better in this case since they can't do much about cycling and as you've explained you already have two goblins in play), or if you have something that can remove their blockers already just go for Ringleader but seems pretty obvious. Long story short, if you have an active Lackey search for something that helps the little dude get the damage in.
You can sit on a Wasteland if it doesn't hinder your mana development, otherwise just play it out there. If they have their wasteland nothing changes much, if they don't they might be hesitant to play the Mutavault since it's one of the few answers they have to Goblin Piledriver.
Sharpshooter's role here is, from my experience, mostly to keep the bench warm for the sideboard cards after game one. If anyone has different experiences I would be interested in hearing them.

Cheers.

[jrw1985]

Sharpshooter is really phenomenal, ESPECIALLY in the Merfolk MU due to their high creature count and limited removal.

here's the thing to remember about Sharpshooter: He untaps when YOUR CREATURES die too. So, if you're sitting with a 2/2 and Sharpshooter while your opponent has a 4/4 you can still trade on in combat. When the 2/2 dies in combat the Sharpshooter's untap trigger goes on the stack. You can ping the 4/4 in response to the untap trigger on SS. Then you untap SS when the trigger resolves. Then you activate SS again to deal the 4th damage. Then the 4/4 dies and your SS untaps. SS basically allows you to do 2+X points of damage per combat step, where X is the number of creatures that will die. Your opponent generally won't be thinking about this, and as such Sharpshooter will be able to generate a LOT of card advantage.

[Annatar]

Sharpshooter is really phenomenal, ESPECIALLY in the Merfolk MU due to their high creature count and limited removal.

here's the thing to remember about Sharpshooter: He untaps when YOUR CREATURES die too. So, if you're sitting with a 2/2 and Sharpshooter while your opponent has a 4/4 you can still trade on in combat. When the 2/2 dies in combat the Sharpshooter's untap trigger goes on the stack. You can ping the 4/4 in response to the untap trigger on SS. Then you untap SS when the trigger resolves. Then you activate SS again to deal the 4th damage. Then the 4/4 dies and your SS untaps. SS basically allows you to do 2+X points of damage per combat step, where X is the number of creatures that will die. Your opponent generally won't be thinking about this, and as such Sharpshooter will be able to generate a LOT of card advantage.


Actually, this has really given me a whole new perspective when thinking about the card. I used similar trigger stacking with Teysa in EDH but never really considered it here. Really neat trick.

[BigBopper]

Regarding the Merfolk match up, sometimes I get tempted to keep a (initial) hand without a 1st drop, but with good resources, like, for example: a Piledriver, a Warchief and a Matron.



A hand to keep without a 1-drop can actually be something like: MM, 2Mountain, Port, Warchief....but only on the play: playing Mountain and respond to anything with MM, play Port and he stay's on one mana and on turn 3 play warchief and attack with haste. You're almost in midgame and go for Matron AND Piledriver on turn 4 attacking for 8 ideally, or with a 3rd Mountain go for Sharpshooter with matron but be cautious if your Warchief sees a removal in response to Matron. That's the only time I wouldn't mull to 6 without a 1-drop.

I actually cut Chieftains at all in favor for Sharpshooter.

[qazwer]

Hello guys, a recently bought mono red goblin deck, but i still have no wasteland and no port. Do you think it's worth playing this deck without these lands? It will take me few months to buy these lands and I'm wondering if it's worth taking this deck to the tournament? Or is it better to take another deck with me?

[ScatmanX]

Viable, yes.
Optimal, no.
I've seen goblins being played without them (I myself seldom use Port, but always Wasteland) but never making a good result.
If you have a more finished deck, I'd suggest to go with it.

[sligh16]

Sharpshooter is really phenomenal, ESPECIALLY in the Merfolk MU due to their high creature count and limited removal.

here's the thing to remember about Sharpshooter: He untaps when YOUR CREATURES die too. So, if you're sitting with a 2/2 and Sharpshooter while your opponent has a 4/4 you can still trade on in combat. When the 2/2 dies in combat the Sharpshooter's untap trigger goes on the stack. You can ping the 4/4 in response to the untap trigger on SS. Then you untap SS when the trigger resolves. Then you activate SS again to deal the 4th damage. Then the 4/4 dies and your SS untaps. SS basically allows you to do 2+X points of damage per combat step, where X is the number of creatures that will die. Your opponent generally won't be thinking about this, and as such Sharpshooter will be able to generate a LOT of card advantage.

Sharpshooter is like Ravager in affinity, cause it makes combat a lot more complicated, and let's you pull tricks out of nowhere. Because of this, it's really recomended to know how he works with the stack, so the only one caught off guard is your oppponent.

Some key information, as jrw1985 pointed out, is that if, for some reason, a bunch of creatures die at the same time, the untap ability will trigger once for each one, and you can respond to each of those abilities with the "tap: ping for 1". Also, I've seen many players forget to activate Sharpshooter when a creature dies, free points of damage are always good.

Because of the many posibilities an active Sharpshooter enables, is really useful to take our time, do the correct math and calculate which is the worst outcome of the combat for you. Chances are that your opponent will do some mistake, and correct predictions can lead to a very efficient way of using Sharpshooter to control the board.

[ScatmanX]

Does anyone still have the link to the Jim Davis video, where he plays and wrecks a GW Vengevine player with goblins?

Edit: Nevermind, found it on page 282 on the last thread.
http://a.blip.tv/scripts/flash/stratos.swf#file=http%3A%2F%2Fblip.tv%2Frss%2Fflash%2F4375682&showplayerpath=http%3A%2F%2Fa.blip.tv%2Fscripts%2Fflash%2Fstratos.swf&feedurl=http://ggslive.blip.tv/rss/flash&brandname=blip.tv&brandlink=http://blip.tv/%3Futm_source%3Dbrandlink&enablejs=true
Though playing against Survival, it's a very informative video, that shows how Skirk Propector can be so broken.
Also, I'm planning on playing something like the list he used there in today's meta. For reference: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=539&d=206980
What do you guys think?

[qazwer]

Viable, yes.
Optimal, no.
I've seen goblins being played without them (I myself seldom use Port, but always Wasteland) but never making a good result.
If you have a more finished deck, I'd suggest to go with it.
Thanks for answer. Unfortunately my other deck is burn which isn't strongest archetype.

But assuming that I will get Wasteland and Port, which cards are best choices to the flex slots in mono red build?
I was thinking about:
2x Goblin Chiefain
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Tuktuk Scrapper (i think its better then tinkerer due to kiki-jiki, and we don't have to wait a turn to use it)
1x Stingscourger
1x MWM
4x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Lightning Crafter (good mini combo with kiki-jiki and goblins with etb trigger)

I also thought about adding Skirk Prospector or Mogg Fanatic, but I'm not sure about them.

And what is in your opinion best sideboard (I know it's meta-based decision, but here is very strange meta, where at one tournament possible is to see any deck and week later every deck is different, also no I didn't noticed that there is any more popular deck)? I was thinking about this:
3x Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus (I have crypts, but I'm not sure if relic isn't better in goblins. It is also possible that there is better GY hate in mono red build that i don't know.)
4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Shattering Spree
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Goblin King (I think it's good against Burn and Goblins, but I may be wrong.)

At the end I would ask you guys what are your ideas what to side out (and in) in different MUs.

Oh, and how to make links of cardnames?

[Yuri8]

I played single skirk in main in times of survival too and sometimes it really felt like some kind of combo...Right now I'm playing same list as Davis with changes -3mwm -1sgc -1port +3fanatic +1chieftain +1pyromacer, but I might try mwm again...
What bothers me is ANT and other storm decks...seriously if you dont splash black for therapies your only chance is to race them...(i dont know how you, but my games with storm ended almost everytime in second turn, sadpandaface.jpg). So here's my question: is worth to buy badlands just to splash for therapies and play Rgb? Or maybe replace them with traps(but trap does nothing to both duress and chant)?

[GoboLord]

Oh, and how to make links of cardnames?

You write it this way:

[@cards]Raging Goblin[@/cards]

You just leave out the "@"s then it come our this way:

Raging Goblin

[Talanos]

Does anyone still have the link to the Jim Davis video, where he plays and wrecks a GW Vengevine player with goblins?

Edit: Nevermind, found it on page 282 on the last thread.
http://a.blip.tv/scripts/flash/stratos.swf#file=http%3A%2F%2Fblip.tv%2Frss%2Fflash%2F4375682&showplayerpath=http%3A%2F%2Fa.blip.tv%2Fscripts%2Fflash%2Fstratos.swf&feedurl=http://ggslive.blip.tv/rss/flash&brandname=blip.tv&brandlink=http://blip.tv/%3Futm_source%3Dbrandlink&enablejs=true
Though playing against Survival, it's a very informative video, that shows how Skirk Propector can be so broken.
Also, I'm planning on playing something like the list he used there in today's meta. For reference: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=539&d=206980
What do you guys think?

I think that MWM is a good creature.

I would probably find a way to play WW. NO-RUG is one of the best decks right now, and just because it loses MM, I don't see people giving up on Progenitus. I also think that Reanimator gets a boost now that there is no MM to counter Entombs, and I always like having a WW or two against that deck.

I think Lightning Bolt or Tarfire needs to be main deck. Stoneblade is a top tier deck and the GW was untouched by the ban, so it should only be stronger.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Yuri, what's your board look like?
I've had some success against ANT using a mono-red build and a board with a combination of Chalice of the Void, Mindbreak Trap, and Relic of Progenitus.

I figure you board out at least your Aether Vials and Gempalm Incinerators?

[sligh16]

I think Lightning Bolt or Tarfire needs to be main deck. Stoneblade is a top tier deck and the GW was untouched by the ban, so it should only be stronger.

Yes, when I removed the 4 Mental Missteps, I added 2 Tarfires and 2 Relics of Progenitus. The drawback that Tarfire pumps Tarmogoyf and Relic not being a goblin is a fair price IMO in exchange for versatility. There have been only a couple of times when these drawbacks have backfired against me (no big deal) but killing SFM and shrinking Goyfs and Knights is very very valuable.

About MWM: I think that's a matter of personal choice, like Kiki-Jiki and Wort. These are cards that have proven their value for a fair amount of time since now, so including one over the other(s) it's just up to you.

[GoblinSettler]

Long time lurker. I've picked up the deck about a year ago and have been playing mono-red.


Thanks for answer. Unfortunately my other deck is burn which isn't strongest archetype.

But assuming that I will get Wasteland and Port, which cards are best choices to the flex slots in mono red build?
I was thinking about:
2x Goblin Chiefain
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Tuktuk Scrapper (i think its better then tinkerer due to kiki-jiki, and we don't have to wait a turn to use it)
1x Stingscourger
1x MWM
4x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Lightning Crafter (good mini combo with kiki-jiki and goblins with etb trigger)

I also thought about adding Skirk Prospector or Mogg Fanatic, but I'm not sure about them.

And what is in your opinion best sideboard (I know it's meta-based decision, but here is very strange meta, where at one tournament possible is to see any deck and week later every deck is different, also no I didn't noticed that there is any more popular deck)? I was thinking about this:
3x Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus (I have crypts, but I'm not sure if relic isn't better in goblins. It is also possible that there is better GY hate in mono red build that i don't know.)
4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Shattering Spree
3x Chalice of the Void
1x Goblin King (I think it's good against Burn and Goblins, but I may be wrong.)

At the end I would ask you guys what are your ideas what to side out (and in) in different MUs.

Oh, and how to make links of cardnames?

Even if you can't get Wastelands and Rishadan Ports, I'd still suggest playing Goblins. And this is coming from someone that absolutely loves Wasteland.

IMO mana-denial works best against fast aggro like Zoo and Affinity. If you can adjust your build to compensate, you should be fine. Mogg War Marshal and maindeck removal might pick up the slack.

With Ports, you don't need all four. I had good results with two, but found myself wanting it more often. Just picked up a third.

Flex choices:
I've was running a similar spread before adopting Mental Misstep. Not sure what I will run now.
- I like Tuktuk Scrapper as artifact hate.
- I ran another Stingscourger over a second Goblin Chieftain.
- I'd try to fit in at least one Tarfire.

Sideboard:
- I prefer Surgical Extraction as my gravehate. It is actually cast-able, unlike Leyline of the Void. It has surprise factor. Before Misstep, I tried 2x main, and always found a useful target.
- Phyrexian mana gives Goblins another interesting option in Phyrexian Metamorph. It kills Iona, Jitte, Emrakul, and Progenitus. It doubles up a key goblin. It gives you your own Batterskull.
- I tried Goblin King for a bit, but always found myself siding in something else instead. With RUG decks everywhere and UW splashing red, it might be a different story now.

[GoblinSettler]

Double post. An embarrassing way to start. :(

[qazwer]

Thanks for your response.



IMO mana-denial works best against fast aggro like Zoo and Affinity. If you can adjust your build to compensate, you should be fine. Mogg War Marshal and maindeck removal might pick up the slack.
Do you think that 4x Gempalm Incinerator and 2x Stingscourger as this maindeck removal is ok or should I add something more? And how many MWMs do you suggest?

Also what do you think about Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Lightning Crafter in maindeck? I'm not sure if this isn't too slow and don't know if there is any sense in playing Lightning Crafter and Goblin Sharpshooter maindeck in the same time.

Could you post how your list looks like?

[Talanos]

Do you think that 4x Gempalm Incinerator and 2x Stingscourger as this maindeck removal is ok or should I add something more? And how many MWMs do you suggest?

Also what do you think about Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Lightning Crafter in maindeck? I'm not sure if this isn't too slow and don't know if there is any sense in playing Lightning Crafter and Goblin Sharpshooter maindeck in the same time.

I would run 3-4 Bolts or Tarfires alongside Gempalm and Stingscourger. I would run 3 Gempalms, unless you run at least 2 MWM, in which case, 4 works.

I think Sharpshooter is quite good, if you can find room for 1 in your main deck, it's a viable choice. If not, keep 1 in your board. Crafter is nice, but suffers a bit from the "looks cooler than it plays" syndrome. I have occasionally have 1 in the board, and usually only bring it in against Merfolk.

[Talanos]

Do you think that 4x Gempalm Incinerator and 2x Stingscourger as this maindeck removal is ok or should I add something more? And how many MWMs do you suggest?

Also what do you think about Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Lightning Crafter in maindeck? I'm not sure if this isn't too slow and don't know if there is any sense in playing Lightning Crafter and Goblin Sharpshooter maindeck in the same time.

I would run 3-4 Bolts or Tarfires alongside Gempalm and Stingscourger. I would run 3 Gempalms, unless you run at least 2 MWM, in which case, 4 works.

I think Sharpshooter is quite good, if you can find room for 1 in your main deck, it's a viable choice. If not, keep 1 in your board. Crafter is nice, but suffers a bit from the "looks cooler than it plays" syndrome. I have occasionally have 1 in the board, and usually only bring it in against Merfolk.

[andrebonotto]

Hello goblin mates,

First, I wanted to thank everyone that helped me with my doubts on my previous posts. The replies were really helpfull since...

Last Saturday I played a 24-player tournament, finishing up at 7th on the Swiss, and going until the Top 4.
Since I’m relatively new to the competitive-level game, it was actually my best result, and I'm really glad with it. :laugh:


Here’s the list I played:

LANDS (22):
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
6 Red Fetch-lands
6 Mountain
2 Taiga

CORE (25):
-1 Siege-Gang Commander

FLEX (13):
4 Mental Misstep (yeah, it was my last – and only – chance to play it)
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
3 Tarfire
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chieftain

SIDEBOARD (15):
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Red Elemental Blast




I wrote a reporting of the games to some friends, and wanted to share it here:





REPORT - Regional Legacy Qualifier tournament, Rio Claro, SP, Brazil (2011-09-24)





1st Round: Goblin 1 x 1 Reanimate

1st Game: He starts on the play. I keep a hand of Mountain, Lackey and Mental Misstep. He plays Careful Study. I think he’s playing Dredge and that this could be his only initial dredge-engine, so I MM’ed it. I play Lackey. He plays another Careful Study, discarding Sheoldred, Whispering One and Terastodon. I freeze. With the other land he plays Reanimate on Sheoldred. I sacrifice Lackey. He puts Terastodon into play, destroying my two lands. From this on I tried to put some creatures into play to chump block but keep loosing them all.

One very bad misplay I did was: with the two 3/3 elephant tokens that his Terastodon gave me after crunching my two lands, I blocked Terastodon with one and Sheoldred with the other, instead of blocking Sheoldred with both. I was very nervous. Also, I don't know if I should have countered his first Careful Study, or if I should have waited to see what could come next.

2nd Game: (Side in: 4x Tormod’s Crypt/ Out: I think 3x Tarfire and 1x Gempalm). I keep a hand with 2x Crypts, a 1st drop and Port. I play the 1st drop and leave a Crypt into play. He throws some bomb at his GY (maybe it was Sphynx of the Steel Wind) to bait me. Since I have another Crypt at my hand, I pretend to grab his bait, and exile his GY. I keep tapping his land at upkeep, with Port, and after I draw a Wasteland I waste his Underground Sea. He throws Iona, Shield of Emeria at his GY, but did not have the mana to recover it the same turn. I played the other Crypt and exiled his GY. Keep disrupting his mana and attacking each time with more goblins.

3rd Game: I think I mull down to 5 after a GY hate, but missed it. Keep the hand with a 1st drop and a Wasteland / Port. After getting my 1st drop into play and disrupting his mana a bit, he plays Pithing Needle, naming the Crypt. I draw a Crypt soon. Time’s up, and I know I can’t beat him up, but I can hold him up until the 5-turn countdown is over.


2nd Round: Goblin 2 x 0 MUC

1st Game: He counters some of my stuff, but I had 1st drop redundancy and got one in play. I sneak some free gobs into play and taking his life, while I keep him off one mana with Port. After a almost-deadly attack, I finish him up with Tarfire. He laughs: “With this?! Nobody plays it; never saw it coming...”.

2nd Game: (Side in: 2x Red Elemental Blast / Out: maybe 2x Gempalm).
Keep a hand with a 1st drop, MM, Matron, and many lands. (I thought a mulligan could offer a riskier hand). He plays Ancestral Vision. I try to rush. Matron gets Ringleader, but at his upkeep, in response to me tapping his Island with Port, he plays a Vendilion Clique, throwing away my Ringleader. I replace it with … another Ringleader! Well, on my turn I have exactly four lands (no Warchief) and decided to risk get the Ringleader into play. He had a card in hand, that could be a Daze. But if I waited, on his turn the would get the three cards from the Vision, and it would be a lot harder to get by his counters. Ringleader resolves, get me some more gobs. On his turn he plays Vedalken Shackles and pass. I think for a while and move to the beginning of the attack step. He steals my Lackey with the Shackels. I burn the Lackey with Gempalm, and after the attack leave him with 1 life. I finish him with Tarfire, again. He will never laugh at this card again.

At some point during the match he Stifled my Piledriver’s +2 combat trigger. I asked if it was possible, because of my Piledriver’s “protection from blue”, but he insisted. I called the judge, who seemed to know less of the rules than I do. My opponent explains to me again, that “the trigger is on the stack, not on the creature”, and that “the trigger don’t have the protection”. It makes sense, so I okayed it. (Is this play correct?)

3rd Round: Goblin 2 x 1 Merfolk (this guy would get the 5th place)

1st Game: Keep a hand with a 1st drop. He mulls to 5, I think. Very fast I put pressure on the battlefield. His life goes: 20 => 19 => 11 => -1

2nd Game: (Side in: 2x Red Elemental Blast / Out: 2x Tarfire)
He plays a Chill. Ouch! I’m able to play my Lackey on the 3rd / 4th turn. He beats me up with his pumped merfolks.

3rd Game: I start with Vial, that resolves. I have another one at my hand, and MM. He tries to play his own Vial, and I MM’ed it. He FOW’ed my MM. (That’s okay, because it took him three cards to put that Vial into play). At some point, I have some gobs, a Warchief, a Piledriver, 2x Ports and I guess 3 Mountains in play. I have a Gempalm at my hand and draw another Piledriver. He gets some untapped merfolks, and an Island / Mutavault ready to block. I play the Piledriver (costed only one red), but he Daze’d it (returnig to hand a tapped island). I think for a very long time and decide to pay the extra mana - that ruined my plan of tapping the Mutavault (using Mountain + Port) and Gempalming another blocker (using the other Mountain + Port). I burn a blocker, get a lot of goblins dead, and leave him with 5 life, ending up with only a Piledriver alive. That was another bad combat decision that I made. On his turn, he rushes me with all his guys and Mutavault, leaving me also with 5. I had to draw something awesome to survive… I draw a Matron (yeah!), vial it into play and find a Warchief, that I play. I attack with everything and it’s game gain, thanks more to the topdecking than to my combat decisions…

4th Round: Goblin 0 x 2 BGW

1st Game: He starts with Land, Go. I play Lackey, that gets StP’ed. We trade some removals and creatures. When I am able to fill the battlefield, he plays Pernicious Deed and destroys everything. I refill my army. He gets back his Deed with Eternal Witness, plays it and destroys everything again. I think I did put some more gobs into play, but after a while he draws another Deed and cracks it. I can’t refill my resources and he finishes me with Goyfs, I guess.

2nd Game: (Side in: 2x Pyrokinesis / Out: 2x Tarfire) I try to guarantee with a initial 1st drop but he gets his stuff into play and I move slow. At Mid-Game, he plays a Enlightened Tutor for Engineered Plague, that takes me some goblins. I cannot recover.

I got disappointed.

5th Round: Goblin 2 x 0 Bant

1st Game: He starts with a first drop (maybe it was Noble Hierarch, but I MM’ed it. I play my 1st drop. Soon, he gets SFM > Batterskull on. He keeps gaining life and I keep loosing it, doing a few chump blocks, until I get to 4 and he to 39. I think it’s over. But I start to draw some removals and am able to get Matron / Ringleader, wich gets me plenty of card advantage. I take his creatures down and after a few massive attacks leaded by Piledriver, his life goes: 39 => 33 => 18 => 3 => over. It was the most impressive game turning that I ever played.

2nd Game: (Side in: 3x Pyrokinesis, 3x Ancient Grudge / Out: 4x MM, 2x Tarfire, because I thought that to disrupt his SFM>Batterskull was more urgent than to protect my initial Lackey).

I think I start with Lackey, with Knesis in hand. I clean Lackey’s way and put some more gobs into play. We trade some removals. I am at 6 life and he is at 2, with Batterskull in play. I think I’ll be dead the next turn, but I draw a Stingscourger. I Sting’ed his Batterskull’s germ and opened the way to a deadly offensive.

TOP 8: Goblin 2 x 1 GW

1st Game: I don’t remember it well. I was another SFM > Batterskull match. On my notepad, my life goes down very fast, and his goes up. I stabilize at 5, and am able to get him down from 32 => 24 => 12. Then, I don’t remember how, I lost, after my Piledriver gets StP’ed.

2nd Game: (Side in: 3x Knesis, 3x Ancient Grudge / Out: 4x MM, 2x Tarfire).
Don’t remember it well, either. Only know that I started fast, because my life stabilizes at 19 (due to a fetch land) all game, but his goes: 20 => 19 => 16 => 14 => 2, over.

3rd Game: I dont’ think he was able to get Batterskull into play this game, because at my play notes, there are no life gain for him: I keep at 18; he goes 20 => 19 => 17 => 16 => 13 => 10 => 7, end.
During this match, I remember he got a Engineered Plague into play, but I kept disrupting his mana base with Ports and Wastelands. After the game, he revealed his hand: another Plague, a Vindicate and other scary stuff. Glad I followed the more secure plan of mana disrupting, instead of going all-in.

TOP 4: Goblin 0 x 2 White Weenie

1st Game: Horrible. I’m still a little disoriented, because my last match ended on the time limit, and I had to grab all my stuff very fast and run to the next game table, where my opponent was already waiting for me.
I mull to 6 or 5: Vial, Lackey, MM, Matron, another gob (or maybe another two). No lands. Nervous and disoriented, I made the stupid decidion (maybe the stupidiest on the tournament?) of keeping this hand, cause I could counter his 1st drop, draw any land, and put my 1st drop into play. Well, “half of the plan worked”: I countered his 1st drop. But I guess I don’t need to say that I didn’t draw any lands for 2-3 turns, then, it was already over.

2nd Game: (Side in: 3x Knesis, 3x Ancient Grudge / Out: 4x MM, 2x Tarfire).
I mull and keep a hand with: Land, Mountain, 2x Lackeys, a removal. My first Lackey connects and brings in Piledriver. I play the other Lackey. On my 3rd turn I attack with everything and leave him at 12. But after, with his Vial on @ 2, he draws Squadron Hawk. Then he fills his board with blockers, until he gets Batterskull and Jitte. That was too much trouble, but I resisted for a while. However, after a sequence of dead draws (land, land, Vial, Vial, and maybe another land), he equips a Hawk with Jitte and I’m over.


And that was it.

Thinking about it after, I really liked to play with 4x Mental Misstep maindeck. Now I guess I’m a little sorry this card is banned. Well, got to start planning the replacements…

[r0ckstAr]

About the G1 against reanimator : you can tell whether you're fighting dredge or rea by the land they drop : dredge runs cephalid coliseum, city of brass, gemstone mine, and maybe 1 tarnished citadel, while reanimator runs classic UB fetches + bilands, and none of the above.
Either way, countering the discard outlet seems like a good choice, because if you let it through, your misstep can counter reanimate, but not exhume... Not like it matters anyway, since misstep is banned (:

[ScatmanX]

At some point during the match he Stifled my Piledriver’s +2 combat trigger. I asked if it was possible, because of my Piledriver’s “protection from blue”, but he insisted. I called the judge, who seemed to know less of the rules than I do. My opponent explains to me again, that “the trigger is on the stack, not on the creature”, and that “the trigger don’t have the protection”. It makes sense, so I okayed it. (Is this play correct?)

Yes, he can Stifle the Piledriver trigger, because it is on the stack. You can even Stifle Emrakul's Annihilator trigger. (still reading the report)

[unicoerner]

I miss a Tin Street Hooligan in your list. This is one of the best reasons to run the G splash.

What do others think about how he managed g2 vs reanimator with his 2 crypts?
1) I'd wait until he casts his first reanimator
2) Id' immediately play both

Am i missing sth?

[GoboLord]

Deckprimer Vial-Goblins
[...]
Goblin Piledriver
Piledriver is one of the 3 main win-conditions of the deck. His insane triggered ability causes heavy damage to opponents lifepoints, when unblocked. However this is often not the case, since opponents place creatures and removal in his way – in fact he can be seen as an removal for creatures like Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker and sometimes even Knight of the Reliquary.
Did you know that?
Thanks to protection from blue Piledriver is a very good solution for cards like Rhox War Monk, Master of Etherium and any Merfolk. In the case of RWM Piledriver even nullifies lifelink: protection, ergo no damage, ergo no lifelink. However we should be cautious when playing against Stifle: one Stifle is enough to set him back to 1/2 - protection blue does not protect the triggered ability. Another thing we need to know is, that the ability counts attacking goblins on resolution. This means that his power decreases even if the opponent removes a creature in the attacker declare-step in response to Piledriver’s ability.

[...]

Thanks for reading my primer

GoboLord

[ScatmanX]

I miss a Tin Street Hooligan in your list. This is one of the best reasons to run the G splash.

What do others think about how he managed g2 vs reanimator with his 2 crypts?
1) I'd wait until he casts his first reanimator
2) Id' immediately play both

Am i missing sth?
For starters, I would play both Crypts. If he Thoughtseized or Chain of Vapore'd it, you'd be sorry.
I do not know if I'd wait for a reanimate spell, since by then he could have drawn a Stifle (another good reason for having both Crypts into play already).

[andrebonotto]

@ ScatmanX and @ GoboLord:

Well, thanks for remembering me this issue. I did read the primer but unfortunately forgot about it...



@ r0ckstAr:

Hmm... I did not know well both lists. It's a very helpful information for me.



@ unicoerner:

I substitued THS for Sharpshooter, because on some of my tests I was a little insatisfied with THS's bad synergy with Warchief, and because some of the last posts here made me see some great benefits from using Sharpshooter. But now, I think I'm reconsidering get TSH back to (main)deck.

Regarding the Reanimate match, I did not have experience against it, so the only thing I thought about was that "bait play". I did not know that he could have other answers - Thoughtseize or Chain of Vapor, as ScatmanX well-pointed. I'll be more cautious next time.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Congrats Andre! I'm glad you got a chance to use MM before the banning officially starts. Goblins gets a HUGE advantage when you can stop opposing 1 drops. I will miss it...
TSH is the best artifact removal Goblins has. If you are already splashing green then it's the card to use!

Now that MM is banned how are people preparing? MM kept combo from showing up in large numbers at local events. With it gone I'd expect the meta to return to 6 months ago with SFM/Batterskull still sticking around for a while.

I've sleeved up Mono-Red Moxtigator again. It seems like the best chance to race combo game 1...

[ScatmanX]

Now that MM is banned how are people preparing? MM kept combo from showing up in large numbers at local events. With it gone I'd expect the meta to return to 6 months ago with SFM/Batterskull still sticking around for a while.
I think its important to try to figure out what kind of combo is going to come back.
This are the ones I'm considering: High Tide decks / Hive Mind / TES / Reanimator /dredge / AdnT / Elves / Belcher. Of these, I think Hive Mind will be the one less played, which is good for us.
Now our hate cards and decks they affect the most are: (in order of the relevance of the card)

High Tide : Pyroblast, Chalice of the Void, Scald, Pirostatic Pillar, Mindbreak Trap, Thorn of Amethyst. (discard is good too)
TES: Chalice, MB Trap, Thorn, gravehate (Iggy). (discard is good too)
Reanimator: Gravehate, Chalice, Pyroblast, Stingscourger. (Discard and Weirding are good)
Hive Mind: Pyroblast, Stingscourger. (May have Leyline against discard, but Extirpate is good)
Dredge: Gravehate, Pyroknesis. (discard is useless)
AdnT: Chalice, MB Trap, Thorn, gravehate (Iggy). (discard and Earwig Squad are good too)
Elves: Pyroknesis, Chalice, maybe MB Trap. (Perish is nice)
Belcher: MB Trap, Pithing Needle, Pyroknesis, Chalice. (Discard is useful only on the play)

With these you can focus on the decks you want to have a stronger games 2 and 3. Try using cards that are good on other MUs too, like Pyroblast, Squad and Chalice.
It is not that impossible to beat specific combo if you have the right Hate. But if you build your side expecting High tide and Hive Mind, and is paired against Reanimator and Dredge, you are going to have a ruff time...

Edit: Think I derailed myself a bit, but hope it was clear... I'm quite tired...

[Ace/Homebrew]

What I got from that was Chalice of the Void, Mindbreak Trap, and grave-hate :wink:
I hate having dead cards against combo games 2 and 3. Vial and removal are too slow and dead cards respectively so at *least* 8 cards come out. CotV is great because it is good against some non-combo too (zoo and burn come to mind).

I think Pyrokinesis and Perish occupy the same position in a Goblin sideboard (Pyro for mono-red and Perish for black splash). The only sideboard slots I go back and forth on is REBs or artifact destruction.

[Annatar]

This might be a bit sudden, but why not add a few Pyroblasts to the maindeck?

It's a quasi Mental Misstep against High Tide, ANT, Reanimator, TES and Hive Mind. Countering Brainstorm with MM was a great play against those decks. Pyroblast can also counter FoW and a host of other relevant cards in those decks. As an additional benefit, the card is REALLY decent against Merfolk. In a similar vein it is also useful against decks like Team America and NO RUG, or even UW Stoneblade.

Granted, it does practically squat against decks like Zoo and various Rock decks but this I feel is somewhat eased by the fact that sideboarding would be much more straightforward and the fact that now you have more SB space to dedicate to other problematic matchups (more combo hate could be useful).

I'm not yet certain about numbers but 2 might be a good place to start, maybe even 3.

[ThoSha]

I had the same idea 2 days ago.
Main Blasts work really decent so far.

[BigBopper]

Pyroblast is a dead card for many matchups (Zoo, Deadguy Ale, The Rock, Meverick, Burn...) that I believe it's a waste of space. Also you can't play it turn 1 when you put your 1-drop on the table.
For my believes MM had some kind of a removal spot in the deck-therefore I placed 2 Pyrokinesis instead, which are paid without mana as well and trade fair most of the time 2 for 2. This also leaves some space in SB and isn't a goblin. Combo matchup isn't improved, but you got Ports and Wastes for them otherwise you need to rush.
Chalice, Crypt and Pyroblast will do the rest game 2 and 3.

[Annatar]

Pyroblast is a dead card for many matchups (Zoo, Deadguy Ale, The Rock, Meverick, Burn...) that I believe it's a waste of space. Also you can't play it turn 1 when you put your 1-drop on the table.
For my believes MM had some kind of a removal spot in the deck-therefore I placed 2 Pyrokinesis instead, which are paid without mana as well and trade fair most of the time 2 for 2. This also leaves some space in SB and isn't a goblin. Combo matchup isn't improved, but you got Ports and Wastes for them otherwise you need to rush.
Chalice, Crypt and Pyroblast will do the rest game 2 and 3.


Apart from Zoo and Maverick all of those decks aren't exactly widely played. They are fringe decks just like we are. Over half of the decks in the DTB section of the forum are blue decks so playing Pyroblast might not be so bad, to the contrary. You can always easily swap it for Pyrokinesis against which it is a dead card.

That being said, maindecking Pyrokinesis is also reasonable in a aggro heavy meta. The goal is more or less the same; free up sideboard space for more disruption against combo or solutions against aggro decks.

[qazwer]

High Tide : Pyroblast, Chalice of the Void, Scald, Pirostatic Pillar, Mindbreak Trap, Thorn of Amethyst. (discard is good too)
TES: Chalice, MB Trap, Thorn, gravehate (Iggy). (discard is good too)
Reanimator: Gravehate, Chalice, Pyroblast, Stingscourger. (Discard and Weirding are good)
Hive Mind: Pyroblast, Stingscourger. (May have Leyline against discard, but Extirpate is good)
Dredge: Gravehate, Pyroknesis. (discard is useless)
AdnT: Chalice, MB Trap, Thorn, gravehate (Iggy). (discard and Earwig Squad are good too)
Elves: Pyroknesis, Chalice, maybe MB Trap. (Perish is nice)
Belcher: MB Trap, Pithing Needle, Pyroknesis, Chalice. (Discard is useful only on the play)

I'm newbie in using chalice, so could you tell me how many counters should I place on it in different matchups?

[ScatmanX]

I'm newbie in using chalice, so could you tell me how many counters should I place on it in different matchups?
High Tide: @1
TES: @0, because they have discard, and can take it out of your hand before you set it @1. If they have played their 0cc cards already, play for 1 next turn.
Reanimator: @1. Stops Entomb, Reanimate, Carefull Study of the useful cards for their combo.
Belcher: @0. You may not have another turn to play it at 1.
Elves: @1.
Dredge/Hive Mind: Don't use it.
AdnT: @1. You need to stop their cantrips. They don't have less 0cc cards than TES.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Building upon what Scatman said:

CotV has applications against Zoo @1; Burn @1; Stiflenaught @1

[cloudshade]

if id play a SB like this, would i basically take all "necessary" precautions atm:

3x Mindbreak Trap
2x Red Elemental Blast
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Pyrokinesis
3x Perish
2x Replicate

assumin ill meet the current dominating decks..

or would u replace smtgh? (if u had no idea about the meta in general, just a basic Q)

[bakofried]

I'm wondering which splash to play in the current meta. Green seems good with Batterskull floating around, but is it still as prominent as it used to be? And the black splash to fight Reanimator seems good, but anyone have any more ideas?

[ThoSha]

you could well consider a white splash instead of green.
It gives you access to Stp and Enlightened Tutor board.

[bakofried]

....neither of which I find particularly attractive. StP is less needed with everyone and their mother relying on X/1's and X/2's, and the white options for the sideboard aren't nearly as attractive.

*EDIT
Here's a list I'm fooling around with. Opinions welcome.
Lands:
2x Badlands
2x Taiga
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Arid Mesa
3x Mountain
3x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
Creatures:
4x Goblin Lackey
2x Mogg Fanatic
1x Skirk Prospector
4x Goblin Piledriver
3x Mogg War Marshall
1x Tin Street Hooligan
3x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Siege-Gang Commander
Spells:
1x Warren Weirding
Sideboard:
1x Tormod's Crypt
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Tin Street Hooligan
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Nature's Claim
1x Warren Weirding
2x Perish

Testing well vs. Snapcaster BUG, but the testing partner (myself) is certainly not up to snuff.

[ScatmanX]

@Bakofried: Holy cow! The list I put up today is almost exactly like yours! Even the 4-1 split on Chalice of the Void and Mindbreak Trap!
The main difference is that I opted to not splash now, so Perish, Weirdings and Claims became Pyroknesis, and Tin-Street became Scrapper.

I'd be interested to know what you're thinking about it / how got in those numbers.
Also, if you need another testing partner, I'll have plenty of time next week. PM me your MSN or something.

[bakofried]

The splash is pretty much up in the air. If you prefer Scrapper over Hooligan, that's cool. But the black splash is looking more and more attractive with Reanimator doing well.

[ScatmanX]

The splash is pretty much up in the air. If you prefer Scrapper over Hooligan, that's cool. But the black splash is looking more and more attractive with Reanimator doing well.
Against Reanimator you have Weirdings (1 mb, 1 sb) from black. The same effect can be obtained with Stingscourger from Monored. I know there is Iona, but they only have 5 Ionas on their decks, so the chance they reanimate her by T2 are quite slim...

[bakofried]

True, but if Reanimator becomes more prominent the numbers would probably shift again. I'm not saying that Mono-Red isn't viable, I just thinking having that effect would make the MU better. If it really became huge, then I would incorporate a copy or two of Stingscourger into the main or side as well.

[ScatmanX]

True, but if Reanimator becomes more prominent the numbers would probably shift again. I'm not saying that Mono-Red isn't viable, I just thinking having that effect would make the MU better. If it really became huge, then I would incorporate a copy or two of Stingscourger into the main or side as well.
That's right. I guess the point is what MU you want to improve, and if that don't harm other ones. The top16 of SCG had quite a lot of Stifles, and though I know it is far from a dead card against us even without Fetchs, I just can't afford having a Fetch Stifled while playing a 22 land manabase with 7 colorless lands. Guess that decision is personal/metagame determined.

Why do you chose Leyline of the Void over Surgical Extraction? I'm currently testing Surgical, and the surprise factor really makes it edge LotV imo. Have you tried both?

[bakofried]

Eh, Surgical could probably be better now, with all the Snapcaster Mages running around. And with Mental Misstep gone, it's less of a liability. But the black splash still looks pretty damn attractive to me.

And if Stifle is a big worry, a more committed black splash with Hovels may be in order.

[GoboLord]

3.2 Lands

[...]
* Auntie's Hovel (for discussion about Auntie's Hovel read pages 33 and 34 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Vial-Goblins-2.0/page33) starting with Seggi's post
[...]


I'd suggest to re-read those 2 pages before you consider running Auntie's Hovel.

[bakofried]

I'm aware of the issues facing Auntie's Hovel; I'm just raising the point that if you want an exceptionally strong commitment to black, and want to avoid Stifle, you may want to consider it. I was there for the discussion, you know.

[orcanmail]

'Siege-Gang Commander[/cards] (SGC)
SGC is the 3rd win-condition of the deck, his strong CIP-trigger makes him a very good card for both offense and defense.......

Playing the 3rd SGC means relying on brute force. Most often 1 SGC ends the game, therefore the 2nd copy is back-up. With 3 SGC we increase our odds of very fast kills.'

Taking the above quotes from Gobbolord's primer, I can't help but wonder if cutting down to 2 SGC is a problem and mistake for Goblins. We rely on our core cards for a mid late game engine and for a vial / lackey explosive start.

My question is what do i look to play off a lackey? Ultimately I want to play SGC and Piledrivers. If I only play 2 SGC then the chances of seeing one is less, and I then use my matrons more to dig them out instead of using matrons to ringleaders for card advantage.

I know the problem is connecting lackey, but by dropping down to 2 SGC are we not conceding our own game out of fear for the opposing deck. Shouldn't we just play our game. Stall and control with wasteland / rishadan port, and quickly swarm with SGC / MWM and piledrivers? If we are truly dropping to 2 SGC is that saying we are not truly a deck to beat ourselves? They have the answers to us, so we have to adapt to them instead of the other way around.

To me the 3rd SGC seems to be core, otherwise the deck seems diluted in some way.

Am I wrong in my thinking about the 3rd SGC? Is it that we are we not likely to get SGC into play anymore, so the deck clogs up with them in your hand as hardcasting them is unlikely?

[Amon Amarth]

I ran with a 3rd SGC forever but only recently have I cut it down to 2. There is definitely some merit in running 3 since our Vials/Lackeys are more likely to resolve. I think it's mostly personal preference.

[BigBopper]

I also cut my 2nd SGC and am pretty happy with it, since I can Matron for it anyways. I'm absolutely satisfied with landing a second turn Warchief with Lackey and cast a Ringleader turn 3 or a Sharpshooter with haste or a matron into ringleader...that's likely to resolve another ringleader or matron, so there are more options to get you SGC in hand. I don't like vial on 5 'cause there is nothing else to cheat into play wit that. With 4 counters you can also play Tuktuk or Lighting crafter or Wort...

[Annatar]

I need peoples opinion on a sideboarding question. Here is the list I'm playing for reference:

//Lands [23]
5 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

//Core [25]
-1 Goblin Warchief

//Other [12]
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Tarfire

//Sideboard [15]
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus

My question is this: how would you sideboard against Affinity with this list? Would you play Krosan Grip (if so what would you take out) or just stick to the Grudges and Hooligans? What cards would you take out?

[Avatara]

What do you think about running 1 Kessig Wolf Run in R/g Goblins as another victory condition? We could replace a Rishadan Port with one. It doesn't come into play tapped, messes up combat math and is game ending in the late game.

[Talanos]

What do you think about running 1 Kessig Wolf Run in R/g Goblins as another victory condition? We could replace a Rishadan Port with one. It doesn't come into play tapped, messes up combat math and is game ending in the late game.

I can get behind this idea. While it may only randomly become relevant, it seems like it could result in the occasional blowout from nowhere.

[ScatmanX]

I can get behind this idea. While it may only randomly become relevant, it seems like it could result in the occasional blowout from nowhere.
The same can be said about Predator Dragon, but it is not played (unfortunately, because it would be awesome).

On a more serious note, try it out, and see if Port would be better when you draw it.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I need peoples opinion on a sideboarding question... how would you sideboard against Affinity with this list?

Aether Vial is typically considered slow against Affinity.
You want as many Ancient Grudge in as possible.
Pyrokinesis is good in this match up too.
I'd cut Stingscourger to 1 and replace the 2nd with the TSH from your board.

So using your list I would go...
-4 Aether Vial
-1 Stingscourger
-1 Tarfire

+2 Ancient Grudge
+1 Tin Street Hooligan
+3 Pyrokinesis

That also leaves you down only 1 goblin so your Ringleaders shouldn't be weakened.
Wait till they activate their Moths to get maximum value from Pryokinesis.
Goblins is slower than Affinity so we take the control role in this match up.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Predator Dragon

Dude, Voracious Dragon has waaaaay more flavor :tongue:

[Avatara]

The same can be said about Predator Dragon, but it is not played (unfortunately, because it would be awesome).
And it's so good when your opponent counters or removes it! Not to mention all the goblins you have to sacrifice!

Just about the only things that can remove a land is Wasteland, Vindicate and Sinkhole and even then they wont be able to stop the ability. If they kill your pumped Instigator, token or Piledriver you just reuse it next turn on another gob.

[GrdiVrag]

Hi guys!

This is the mono red list I've been working on:

//Lands [22]

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
8 Mountain

//Core [26]

//Others

4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

//Sideboard

4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Blood Moon
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Red Elemental Blast

I really like the build and its performing quite good, the only thing I'd like to squeeze in is a singleton Skirk Prospector because the cool interactions with echo goblins, combat tricks and so on. Also, the sideboard needs some work.
I don't feel like splashing at the moment, I wanna see how this build performs and then decide the splash based on my metagame requirements. Thanks in advance for your suggestions!

[cloudshade]

i play a similar list atm, because i cant afford dual lands at all. i decided for a cheap B-Splash tho..

//Lands [21]

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Auntie's Hovel
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
1 Swamp

//Core [26]

//Others [13]

4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Mogg War Marshall
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Warren Weirding
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Tinkerer

//Sideboard [15]

4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Perish
3 Chalice of the Void


I wouldnt play Hovel if i had the Duals and id prolly reorganise my land base. One main question remainin is "Tuktuk vs Tinkerer" - any opinions on this? Would u change the SB somehow?

Ideas welcome.