Ghostbusters

[perm]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/5dn/86.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/eve/6.jpg
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/fvr/1.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/gp/6.jpg



This is a branchoff the "CIP deck" mentioned in the thread dedicated to it. I use the best enter-the-battlefield effect creatures available in the format's fast card pool to gain significant board presence and card advantage while minimizing the opponent's. Through the testing I have done, this deck is resilient to control and removal (eternal witness multi-recursion, ghostway, Sword of L+S creature recursion, Aether Vial), aggro strategies (wall of blossoms, STP recursion). My sideboard in this list can give me a very clear fighting chance against just about any combo deck. It never runs out of cards, and it can lay on a very quick beating.


Creatures 23
4 Wall of Omens
4 Eternal Witness
3 Flickerwisp
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Kor Skyfisher
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Mangara of Corondor

Spells 18

4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Ghostway
1 Sword of Feast and famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands 19
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Plains
3 Karakas
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Wrath of God

Card Explanations

Wall of Omens/Wall of Blossoms
Push aggro's clock far back until the point where they can't keep up. Absolute superstars in any matchup with creature threats. Also helps cycle through deck so 20 lands is never a problem, especially with hierarch.

Eternal Witness
Best green creature printed. Is the best creature in this deck, and will turn any game around. Counters and removal become very efficient in the face of E-wit, especially when you start getting a blink engine online. Honestly, this is why this deck works. You turn one STP into 3, or take back your Qasali Pridemage.

Flickerwisp
I would include it as a 4-of if the CMC curve wasn't so fragile with vial, but 3-of works just fine. Besides blink shenanigans, can exile problem permanents of opponents in clutch situations when a swing is needed. Vs affinity I have brought 9 power creatures down to 1 or 0 by resetting counters. Also hilarious to make vials worthless again. This is a card I really never hate seeing, because worst case scenario you use its CITP on something irrelevant, and get a great flier to carry equips. It also creates a good deal of CA with vial in response to removal. I once even blinked a jitte in response to an equip, and it won me the game.

Kor Skyfisher
2-CMC Flickerwisp with a strong evasive body. While the ETB trigger may seem like quite the drawback, it ends it being a boon 99% of the, either bouncing walls, or blinking in to save duals from wastes or mangara tricks. Besides that, flyers with equips are indispensable.

Noble Hierarch
Doesn't need much ex/planation. One drop G/W mana producer that pumps your attacker. This slot is flexible between hierarch or Mother of Runes, but I find Noble Hierarch much more useful. Exalted is also beautiful in this deck.

Stoneforge Mystic
A card with a price skyrocketing for a reason. In this specific deck, it not only gives us card advantage, but very specific card quality that we need. This deck packs 3 sword of X's, with protection from every color spread amongst them, as well as Jitte. a 2-of is plenty, because the deck is tutored out without problems.

Qasali Pridemage
One of the most useful creatures playable in legacy. If you are on this site, you know this. So what does it do in our case? Well, artifacts an enchantments can give this deck some problems it can't otherwise death with, Vedalken Shackles, for example, gives mangara real problems. This is a perfect solution on a great exalted body, recurrable by witness. Exalted is also great in this deck, often just a singleton equipped flier attacking.

Mangara of Corondor
This is the deck that Mangara belongs in. I rarely have to use mangara without tricks, and even when I do, I RFG a permanent that changes the game. Jaces, thopters, Counterbalance. Vindicate is a good card, but this is much much better when used in this deck. Matchups otherwise unfavorable and unwinnable

Swords to Plowshares
The most efficient removal. It's like the death star laser when you keep recurring with E Wit.

Aether Vial
Truly makes this deck shine. While great in any creature heavy deck, aether vial brings that and so much more to ghostbusters. Has innumerable uses, to name a few, uncounterable, flash speed, instant enough for mangara tricks or saving a permanent, getting past wastelands.

Ghostway
The deck's namesake. The bottom line is that it does retarded things and wins games. If you have two e-wits out, you can recur it and another card for continuous recursion, and if you have other blinkers and bouncers and cantrip wills, your opponents will often just concede.

Sword of Light and Shadow/Sword of Feast and Famine/Sword of Fire and Ice
These equips are not only the best in the game, but they provide protection from every color together, and can be tutored with mystic as I mentioned earlier for the exact protection you need.

Umezawa's Jitte
It's jitte, and I run SFM


Sideboard Explanation
My sideboard is built to shut down combo, and it does it really well. With 4 leylines, I can very consistently get it down for free with just one mulligan. Teeg and Canonist are there for additional problems for their combo, and the one echoing truth or similar spell they won't be enough to stop their combo from being shut down. Pithing needle has too many uses to name in this format, wrath is for emrakul/progenitus decks, as well as empty the warrens, and even just plain good interaction with ghostway for one-sided shenanigans.


Matchup Analysis
Ghostbusters

Goblins
Extremely Favorable
85-15

This is our easiest matchup. We shut their clock down, efficiently remove any real threats, and can tutor for pro-red, and recur anything we may lose without taking a breath. One advantage over zoo is vial, tutors and ringleader, but this deck still doesn't take much thinking in this MU.

Sideboard: +1 Kitchen Finks +2 Wrath of God -2 Mangara -1 Ghostway

Zoo
Very Favorable
75-25

Zoo is probably GB's second easiest matchup. The scariest thing they can do is try to send removal for our witnesses and pridemage at vials/equips, but they just run out of steam too quickly to be a real thorn in our side

Sideboard: +1 Kitchen Finks +2 Wrath of God -2 Mangara -1 Ghostway

The Rock/Junk/some BGW loam
Favorable
65-35
In these matchups, we do most of what the rock does except better. Discard can be pretty bothersome, but usually ends up as a losing proposition for them, since we habe witness/SoLS recursion. What ends up happening is they run out of hand against us in the removal fights, unless they have Bobs we can't deal with. Bob allows them to to be on a similar level with us when it comes to card advantage, though not quite and not without a life pricetag.

Sideboard: +2 Tormod's Crypt (if loam is used) -1 Wall of Blossoms -Wall of Omens. Without loam, no SB.

Merfolk
Even
50-50
This is truly a matchup that can go either way. Walls are fantastic here. If you vial their lords, you have it in the bag. I often want them to use force of will when I have a 3-vial and witness, with a game-changing STP coming down, as its just a huge advantage for me. But I have to put it at 50-50 because even after a lot of testing, it's too hard to say either deck has the advantage, so 50-50 is a comfortable estimate.

Sideboard: +2 Wrath of God 2 +1 Kitchen Finks -1 Sword of Feast and Famine -1 Stoneforge Mystic -1 Ghostway

New Horizons
Very Favorable
75-25

I've never lost to this matchup besides bad draws vs very good draws on opponent's part. I haven't tested it like I have other decks, so I will give it the benefit of the doubt.

[Jabari]

I like the idea a lot more than the other thread. What do you think of the red splash though? The deck looks pretty mid-range to me so Keldon Marauders seems out of place? Plus it weakens your mana-base for little payoff other than 1 Recruiter.

I would suggest cutting the splash and adding 1-2 more SFM and a couple Mangara of Corondor.

[perm]

I mainly have red for Duergar Guildmage TBH, which is just too much CA for me to resist, but I haven't tested it and it's probably suboptimal. But I suppose I have to, even though scoring a double destruction would be cool. THanks fo rthe advice, can't believe i overlooked mangara

[Jabari]

What do you think of the new Leonin relic-warder? Possible switch for the guildmage, and it's cheaper.

Also, something that might be spicy, a 1 of Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker

[perm]

The problem with relic-warder is that it cannot be used to take advantage of blink or bounce effects. It's worth considering though, maybe SB. Revoker seems subpar for maindeck

[Jabari]

Relic-warder is like Mangara, as long as you have instant blink-ability he's like a 2/2 Naturalize. The reason I mention Revoker is because blinking allows you to morph his ability into addressing new board states. You can drop it naming Wasteland and then later switch it to Top or something.

[sclabman]

Can't name wasteland with revoker...

[Jabari]

Oh that's right, my bad. Not as good as I thought, definitely SB.

[perm]

Oh that's right, my bad. Not as good as I thought, definitely SB.
Yah. If I flicker Leonin Relic-Warder in response to trigger, will I RFG one permanently then it will return and I will RFG one until it's out of play?

[Jabari]

I believe that is how it works, which isn't necessarily as easy as the Hedge-Mage 2 for 1 but definitely do-able

[perm]

Alright, worth a slot since I can tutor it in a bind. What does everyone think of Balancing Act or Wrath of God with ghostway? Seven mana combo so I am looking for cheaper alternatives

[Jabari]

Maybe try cutting 1 Sofi and 1 Mangara for 2 Cataclysm. You can cast Ghostway during your opponents end step exiling them until your next end step so you'll be able to afford the combo without having 7 Land, just 4.

That seems pretty insane actually, depending on how well it tests it you might be able to go for a full 4 Ghostway with 3 Cataclysm.

[perm]

TBH I don't see an advantage of cataclysm over wrath of god

[Jabari]

It basically nukes there team and land and all your creatures survive for the overrun, so while you both build up land again you beat down.

Plus it can deal with threats other than just creatures.

[perm]

But the destruction of other permanents is bilateral and they keep a creature and choose to keep any problem permanents for me

[Jabari]

I only foresee this as a problem against Countertop, against goblins and fish you nuke their team and take our their ports/mutavaults. In relation to countertop hopefully you'll be able to utilize your cantrips and CIP effects enough to take care of whatever is left.

For example if you were to run a list with Cataclysm I would suggest increasing the Relic-Warder count. That way you would be able to nuke whatever is left with either Mangara or Relic-Warder.

Of course this is theoretical for the most part, if I can put the list together I'll try to test out Cataclysm and if you test out Wrath we can compare results.

Edit: Also, I just realized the curve seems a little too crowded at 3 CMC = 14 Creatures are all fighting for the 3 drop spot, I still think Mangara should be trimmed to 2 maybe pushing Fauna Shaman to 4 or Relic Warder to 2.

[perm]

Yah, I am considering living wish, but I doubt it is worth the not creature slot.

Vexing Shusher and Relic Warder are my plan vs countertop tbh. I may even board them as 4 ofs. fortunately, a resolved vial gives CBtop a big headache.

And I don't want to take fauna shaman to four, as having more than one or two down doesn't get me much at all.

Changes: -Wrath of God, -1 Leonin Relic-Warde + Sword of Light and Shadow, +1 Stoneforge Mystic

Enemy wraths are something I should be waiting to avoid, not my own to be honest. I am putting a wrath in SB, it just doesn't make enough sense maindeck.

Two mystics is completely justified with four unique equips.

[Jabari]

I agree with you on the Mystics 2 seems optimal, although (and I may be alone on this one) I think 2 Jittes is more valuable than either 1 Sols or Soff. One usually get's blown up somehow and against Fish it's good to have one to throw away.

As for Wraths - I think that is a good point, you should be trying to avoid other wrath effects, but with all the E Wits and Fliskerwisps you can recover really well if you do get wrathed. Also with such a high curve I think at least 1 is necessary for the Affinity Goblins and Fish MU's. I personally am not a fan of 1 of's that can't be tutored for though - I still think 2 is the best number. If they stick a lackey turn 1 you're are gonna fall behind fast considering your only answer on the draw is 4 StP. Ratchet Bomb might suit you more - Personally I still like cataclysm - being a 2 drop it smooths out your draw and you can nuke the board at your disgression.

In relation to Living Wish, if you do run them I think Fauna Shaman would be the easiest cut. That way you won't have to pitch anything and can still find your answers.

[perm]

TBH Sword of Fire and ice may even be worse than the alternatives.

Light and shadow gives me a gravedigger effect, and feast/famine gives me untap that I need for ghostways and replying bounced creatures. I predict their hate going towards my vials more so than equips, and one-ofs is the best I can do with a recurrable tutor. Updating sideboard in a minute

[Jabari]

What do you think about Living Wish over Shaman's main?

You aren't maindecking that many silver bullets and without vengevines it seems like card disadvantage. Living Wish gives you more flexibility maindeck I think.

[perm]

I have to devote SB space to living wish targets is the problem, while these cards are naturally just in my deck. SoLS helps offset the discard too. I'll have to test it, I invite others to test as well and give their two cents.

[Jabari]

I'll try and test the same list posted -1 SoFI, -1 Finks for +2 Cataclysm, just to see how they run.

Also In relation to SB I would probably say cut the Leylines - 4 Canonist seems enough for Storm combo. In their place maybe try an E tutor SB or just run some Peacekeepers/Dueling Grounds your thoughts?

[perm]

Both those cards are pretty bad here, as peacekeeper is expensive and weak, and my deck is aggro. Dueling grounds is just subpar for this too for similar reasons.

I can't understand why you think cataclysm looks good - They get to keep a creature and we lose other permanents. I think any sweepers are a bad idea.

[Jabari]

I think Ghostway makes what would be a sub-optimal card a completely game breaking one. I think you should test with it just to see how amazingly epic a blowout it is. Then again, maybe I'm wrong - I think not testing it though would be a shame.

As for SB I see what you're saying and I agree - my swaps are bad, but I still think Leyline should be replaced or Canonist cut down.

[perm]

I updated the SB in the main post for non living wish use. If I test a sweeper, it will be wrath of god or maybe balancing act. Cataclysm is sort of dumb

Living wish consideration:
1 Karakas. A definite plus for living wish, since running three legendary lands for limited usage mainboard is suboptimal.
1 Gaddock Teeg for extra storm protection
4 Ethersworn canonist, side in 3
3 Vexing Susher, side in two leave one.
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leonin relic-Warder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Qasali Pridemage

[Jabari]

Haha alright, do you think ratchet bomb deserves any consideration, I'm not a big fan personally but some people are.

That wishboard looks good btw - would the wishes sub for Shaman's or no?

[perm]

Haha alright, do you think ratchet bomb deserves any consideration, I'm not a big fan personally but some people are.

That wishboard looks good btw - would the wishes sub for Shaman's or no?
Yup, Shaman would be only marginally useful if I used wish, but TBH I think it is still better.

ratchet bomb is bad because my curve is entirely 2 and 3, which is what you want it for.

[Jabari]

I concur, I'm gonna test the newly updated list with Path in SB it looks close to optimal.

I'll probably post my findings here around Monday.

[perm]

Stroke of Minor Genius: Gaddock Teeg can be rescued with Karakas. Just saying. May put 1 in SB

[perm]

Testing on MWS, for what it's worth

Goblins:
Game 1: I go second. Swords a lackey turn one, turn two wall of blossoms, turn 3 Aether Vial and Stoneforge Mystic. I gain a good board presence that he cannot compete with, with finks trading with his creatures, and equipped beaters. I win. Not too eventful really. Game 2 is fun though.

Game 2: I sideboard: -2 Flickerwisp -1 Fauna Shaman -2 Mangara +1 Kitchen Finks +1 Leonin Relic Warder +3 Path to Exile.
I mull to 6, he drops and aether vial and I do too.
t2: He drops a piledriver and vials in a lackey. On my turn I swords lackey and pass turn. Stupid I know, but I had a PtE in hand if needed.
t3: he drops goblin warchief, damn. Vials in ANOTHER piledriver. I PtE the Warchief. He swings for one and passes turn. My turn! Vial in Stoneforge Mystic, hardcast witness, grabbing swords to plowshares and sword of fire and ice and umezawa's jitte.
t4: he doesn't drop a land, but has 4 from my PtE. drops goblin matron to grab a goblin warchief, and vials it in. God damnit. He alphastrikes. I block a piledriver with mystic, and let the others go through for 10 damage, putting me at 8. Fortunately, I can stabilize this turn. Vial is at 3 counters. I cast jitte and put it on witness. I attack with jitte'd witness, using counters to kill a piledriver. I Swords his chieftain.
t5: He plays goblin ringleader with vial, revealing siege-gang commander, aether vial, gelm-palm incinerator and a land. He attacks with his three goblins, I vial in Kitchen Finks to block his piledriver. I gain four life and lose 3, he loses piledriver. I am at 9. My turn! I attack with witness, he gempalms it. GHOSTWAY BITCHES. I return StP to hand, kitchen finks gets 3/2 again and I gain 2 life, putting me at 11. I drop wall of blossoms, and equip finks with Jitte. One land open for StP.
t6: he gets a land and drops siege gang. Turn passes to me. I swords his commander at his end step. on my turn I attack with jitte'd finks, he takes, putting him at 22, getting two counters on jitte. vial in Eternal Witness, play a leonin-relic warder/ghostway combo to permanently remove his vial. He vials in a goblin ringleader, and gets Lackey, Matron and Warchief in his hand. Two witnesses bounce, at EOT I getting ghostway and StP back. I get relic-warder back, target nothing. +2 life and card draw. 13 life, and I get a skyfisher from the draw.
t7: He plays goblin warchief, goblin matron for piledriver, and then piledriver. himself, tapping him out. Alphas with a massive piledriver, use jitte counters to kill it. Block warchief with leonin, and lackey with wall. I take 4. putting me at 9. My turn. I attack with everything I can, gaining jitte counters. he is at 15. I play Kor Skyfisher, bounce Witness. Vial in Witness, get PtE. Ghostway. EoT I get Stoneforge Mystic and StP back in hand, and draw one. I bounce witness. I actually have to discard, so I discard fauna shaman. At 11 life.
t8: He drops Aether Vial and Goblin matron, searching for Siege-Gang Commander. He gempalms my witness, then drops a lackey with the card it seems he drew. At this point he looks pretty hopeless and passes turn. My turn: Play stoneforge mystic grabbing a sword of feast and famine. I vial in witness to grab other witness. I play sword of feast and famine and attach it to skyfisher. I attack, he discards and I untap. Cool. I play witness, grabbing ghostway. I play ghostway, he conceded.

[perm]

bump i thought it was cool

[Jabari]

So the Ghostways and E wits I ordered didn't come as soon as I thought they would so I couldn't test this weekend.

As a personal sidenote - FUCK MACS - their shit won't run anything, I've been trying to update so I can get some sort of windows emulator to run Workstation on and the Assholes want $60. FUCK MACS, buy a PC

Anyway, back to the deck. Good work in the goblin MU - It seems the MU I thought would need a sweeper the most doesn't. Your thoughts? Did you feel like the curve was too slow ever? or just fine?

[perm]

The curve def turned out to be slow, but this IS a midrange deck. The point of it is that we can resist and slow them down early turns, use spot removal to get rid of big threats, but then stabilize in a few turns, as I did in the MU i wrote about. Maybe it can use more tweaking for that category because legacy is such an aggro-heavy meta.

[Jabari]

would you say it was fairly easy to stabilize turn 4 or later?

Because if we can't stabilize the board by then some changes need to be made

[perm]

From limited testing, yes. I will always mull if I lack a vial, StP and/or Wall of Blossoms in opening hand. To get a functional vial (two counters) I only need to drop a second turn aether vial. I am considering cutting a flickerwisp for either a Kor Skyfisher or Wall of Omens to help push the curve more to 2, where as right now it leans towards 3

[Jabari]

Wall seems better as it doesn't force you to bounce your own land setting the deck back a great deal in the early game.

[perm]

My consideration was that I want 6 flyers, and allows me to be more flexible with vialing for mangara cheese.... going to run analytics on one wall of omens for a flickerwisp cut
EDIT: The one less white mana symbol brings it closer to the mana production/mana symbol %.... it also evens out the 2-3 mana curve considerably. I am going to edit the list for 3 Flickerwisps.

The creature curve (vialable things ofc) is now a 12 to 12 split between CMC 2 and 3, with 24 creatures.

My sample draws are looking very nice. It looks like about only 25% of opening hands will be mulliganed, and this is a deck where you want to mulligan.

EDIT: I just realized I was at 61 cards, so I cut the Wall of Omens I added. I am considering cutting one equipment for a creature slot to make 25 creatures, possibly maindecking a fourth finks or flickerwisp, or even wall of omens.


Big Consideration: I am thinking of cutting the singleton Relic-Warder for a 3rd Mangara and replacing a plains with Karakas. What I gain is much more versatility and ease of trigger stacking, but what i lose is a 2/2 body and 2 CMC. Thoughts anyone?

[Jabari]

I think the cut is okay but if you cut the warder I think it would be smart to cut fauna shaman as well. The obvious substitution is 'Goyf, but another worth considering might be Serra Avenger. That way you maintain a strong flying threat and compliments a turn 1 vial which we are supposed to be mulliganing to.

[perm]

I'm considering cutting Fauna Shaman, but will not do so until it's tested more.

[Jabari]

I cannot believe I didn't think of this before - better than Wall of Omens

Perimeter Captain

Easily a better 1 of than Wall of Omens and definitely worth finding room for more possibly.

[perm]

Wall of Omens is a way better card man, even without my deck's massive bounce/blink effects. I don't think 4 other defenders is enough to justify it.

[Jabari]

Captain Pros: Comes down turn 1 shutting down turn 1 Nacatl/Lackey, making it so you mulligan less. It gains you life making attacks into it and other walls a huge disadvantage. Changes combat math in your favor. Cons: No cantrips for blinking. Can be card disadvantage only in the sense that you don't draw.

Wall Pros: Cantrips w/ blink. Replaces itself with draw. Cons: Doesn't come down turn 1 so on the draw it won't stop Lackey. No disadvantage attacking into it so overrun is easier.

Would you mulligan a hand that had no StP and a Wall of Omens? how about the Captain? Sure Wall of Omens is normally just better but I think as a 1 or 2 of in this deck which already has great CA stopping their early threats cold is very important considering how long it takes to stabilize w/o a wall.

[perm]

As a one of it will have no statistical significance. What's important in any magic deck is consistency. Have 5 Wall of Blossoms is better than things I have to cross my fingers for.

[Jabari]

Fair Enough

[perm]

With 5 walls, I am considering one or two perimeter captains in SB for aggro... as always, testing will reveal all

[klaus]

i highly recommend mother of runes in the shaman slot. she really has proven herself in stoneforge decks - lowering your curve would also be a very feasible move.

[perm]

i highly recommend mother of runes in the shaman slot. she really has proven herself in stoneforge decks - lowering your curve would also be a very feasible move.

I was just considering that actually. What do you think of about numbers? 3? or maybe 2 and a wall of omens? 4?

[perm]

Changes

Maindeck: -1 Leonin relic-warder -3 fauna shaman +1 Wall of Omens +3 Mother of Runes

SB: -1 Vexing Shusher -1 Ethersworn Canonist -1 Path to Exile +2 Perimiter Captain +1 Leonin Relic-Warder

Considerations: Does anyone think relic-warder is worth playing over pridemage? the RFG is nice, as well as no have to sac and reusability, but if not used with blink tricks, he gives back their problem permanent when dead. Pridemage gives exalted and is a little more reliable.

[Jabari]

How does the deck usually play out? as 1 guy wittling them down? or as your team swinging in for the overrun? If its 1 man beatdown Pridemage is superior, otherwise relic-warder seems better for it's blink flexiblity.

[kiblast]

I'd play Venser, the Sojourner here. With 5 cantripping walls seem you can survive early game pretty nicely. I understand it's slow and a bit off color, but hey, he's a planeswalker.

[waSP]

If you're going to run Venser, you're probably better off with a more controllish build (running Chants, etc.).

You can run a more Planeswalker heavy version but it would not be this deck.

[Jabari]

I totally forgot about this list but somebody posted it a few months back in the tournament reports sub-forum here is the link. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19274-4-0-Evolution-Games-A-Cinderella-Story

The decks are very similar and the report is a good read check it out for some solid match analysis.

[The Treefolk Master]

No love for reveillark? Is it too expensive? It returns all your dudes but finks and flickwisp.

[perm]

reveillark is waaay too clunky. I tried decklists with survival back in the day, but it would never be more than a t3 deck. Reveillark may be playable, but not in this deck.

And jabari yah that list is eerily similar to what ive turned this into.

[Jabari]

Yea, the other list is definitely more beatdown oriented though - which begs the question since he did go 4-0 - what pros/cons does his strategy have compared to yours?

[perm]

I personally think he is silly for forgoing Mangara. I am thinking about going to 3, she's a beast. I think this list is better in every way, because I don't need inefficiently high numbers of flickerwisp/skyfisher to make the engine work. We don't need a sylvan library draw engine, and our creatures all do better things than Serra Avenger.

Come to think of it. I am cutting SoLS for mangara

[novatinhu]

I love the deck, but i dont playing with mangara+karakas i think there is no need.

[Jabari]

I just had an epiphany about the mana-base. I was buying Wall of Omens because apparently I have none, and decided to switch Wall of Omens to 4 and Blossoms to 1 because it was cheaper. This made me realize after the switch - there are only 5 green cards main.

WOW! with only 4 Savannah our manabase isn't that vulnerable as is but since we're only playing green for E wit I think we should definitely fit Wastelands into the list. By Switching to Omens the manabase should be really consistent and making it easy to support.

I suggest:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Karakas
3 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
4 Plains
2 Forest

[perm]

the manabase is optimized for mana symbols, ive run analytics on it. I like it a lot where it is currently, ive never had trouble in all testing

[Jabari]

What do you think about the switch to Wall of Omens though and adding Wasteland for E wit recursion?

[perm]

a singleton wasteland? Hmm, interesting I guess, but I don't think it's consistent or useful enough to use. I could only ever replay it once a turn. I'd rather just use witness to exile their threats rather than screw with their manabase.

[Jabari]

Not 1 more like 3 - and how do you mean exile their threats with e wit? Are you referring to grabbing Mangara from the yard?

[perm]

no, with StP ofc. mangara would rarely be in the yard.

[Jabari]

Haha oh okay yea that makes a lot more sense - still not down for the 3 of waste though?

[perm]

No because my recursion engine would 99% of the time crowd wasteland out for better spells. And it would be a max 1 per turn wasteland, at the expense of my own ramping. It doesn't really fit into this deck tbh

[Jabari]

Fair enough, if my walls come in the mail by tomorrow i'll be testing the list on sunday - they're coming through USPS though so chances are slim

[perm]

What we should be looking to recur is stuff that will provide a clear and present disruption and answer to their plans, or even a tide-turning threat that will cement our board presence. Wasteland only really works in conjunction with stuff that can be used in a tempo deck, wasteland etc need to be used very quickly. Not just a "oh hmm lets wasteland them now", because this format has such a low curve that one land midgame, when we can actually recur with witness, is totally irrelevant, as they have hit their max curve or won with combo already

[Jabari]

So this is probably a terrible card to bring up but I feel it might be an interesting 1 of or SB card Pull from Eternity

[perm]

So this is probably a terrible card to bring up but I feel it might be an interesting 1 of or SB card Pull from Eternity

http://i52.tinypic.com/ayt08.jpg

I don't understand

[Jabari]

haha In case you have to exile Mangara with no flicker tricks PLAN B - plus how awesome would it be to cast this in legacy just for the look on their face

[perm]

Well it only goes to your graveyard, id rather just draw another mangara lol

[Jabari]

I wish USPS gave tracking numbers before packages arrive cause I really wanna play this on Sunday

[Droxis]

Daniel.

I'm watching you poop, Daniel.

Daniel.

[Jabari]

Who the fuck are you? I will eat your face and urinate down your spinal chord!

Edit: Sorry for the harsh words, I was drunk when I posted that.

[perm]

Hmm... I am a bit out of the loop, how necessary is GY hate? I am considering loaming shaman in the SB

[Jabari]

I would prefer Relic of Progenitus, Loaming shaman is too slow against Dredge and won't solve your problem against lands. It only helps against a goyf really in which case it would be better just to run Jotun Grunt SB.

[perm]

You're right, jotun grunt is pretty nice, and I can reset his upkeep.

[Jabari]

I feel like Grunt never gets enough love he is the tits against a Goyf, seriously it's almost unfair sometimes.

[novatinhu]

Guys im having serious problems against Emrakul and Progenitus, i put in my SB 3 Tariff but this card dont help me a lot, do you have any other card in mind to take this creatures down?

[Jabari]

Are you maindecking the 3 Karakas? Cause those are a solid answer to Emrakul, I've always liked Tariff but if you wanna try something else I would go with Wing Shards.

[novatinhu]

Are you maindecking the 3 Karakas? Cause those are a solid answer to Emrakul, I've always liked Tariff but if you wanna try something else I would go with Wing Shards.

Thx for wing shards advice, i dont have the lock karakas+mangara, and im not planing to spend 40 buck in karakas for now =[

[Angelfire]

Wingshards is pretty terrible against Emrakul as you still have to sac 6 permanents. Something like Oblivion Ring is more solid.

[Team-Hero]

Has anyone looked into blue? In blue there are cards like Nevermaker, Mulldrifter, and Man-O-War. I haven't played this deck, but a Nevermaker lock seems easy in this deck.

[perm]

The thing is, we get all the draw we need and more from the 5 walls, and removal that is much MUCH better than bounce from E-witness. Nevermaker is cool, but it's CMC4, which is massive when we see Jaces for that much.


About Emrakul: One of the main reasons I am using 3 Karakas. Even with wasteland, I know when it scares them and I can recur it with witness. Mangara also deals with Emrakul, but not progenitus. I am considering wrath of god sideboard to use against titans and against aggro in conjunction with Ghostway.

[Grymer]

have you thought of splashing red for imperial recruiter?
it can almost tutor every creature in the deck

the walls
stoneforge
eternal witness
mangara of corondor
kor skyfisher
mother of runes
and it self lol

:)

[perm]

Yah I did, my original list had imperial recruiter, keldon marauders and duergar hedge-mage. Having red just really was not worth it though. It's a different sort of deck to play than this one.

Also, I cut Sword of Light and shadow, but it's pretty damn useful. The protections it gives are the best, making the creature all but removal proof, and the resilience it provides with life and recursion are very nice. I'd have to cut a creature or another sword though.

[perm]

Going to post testing results later

[Jabari]

Where at? I've been waitin for some results, I just got the cards and I'm gonna test the list this weekend for sure.

[perm]

Alright. I played some sort of solidarity deck, and got punched in the balls pretty hard both games. Sideboarding in shushers and canonists helped, but he could still power through them eventually, as my clock isn't the best in the world. Not unwinnable at all, but definitely unfavorable.

I played Zoo, and it was no contest, even goblins fares better vs me than zoo. Roughly all of their drops can be chumped with my 5 walls, and when I pulled out Perimeter Captain 2nd game, absolute blowout. I kept him controlled and on the ropes both games without a problem, and set up ghostway combos easily. Very favorable.

[Draener]

I totally forgot about this list but somebody posted it a few months back in the tournament reports sub-forum here is the link. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19274-4-0-Evolution-Games-A-Cinderella-Story

The decks are very similar and the report is a good read check it out for some solid match analysis.

I wrote that and have since been playing the deck since. Out of the events 10 or so events I have played with it, I have taken first or split with friends atleast 8 of them. Last night I won a 20 person tourney, but conceeded the last match ( which was already a draw, garanteeing my first) to a friend who needs store credit more than I do. I beat Affinity, ANT, Deadstill, Dragon Stompy, and finally *draw* with RGU countertop. I have not played mangara, because I feel eternal wittness serves the same purpose, but does not need to untap.

The List I played Yesterday was as follows:

4x Wasteland
2x Horizon Canopy
4x Windswept Heath
4x Savannah
3x Arid Mesa
1x Forest
2x Plains
1x Karakas

4x Swords To Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
2x Jitte
2x Sylvan Libary

4x Mother of Runes
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Kor Skyfisher
4x Eternal Witness
4x Flickerwisp
3x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Jotun Grunt

Sideboard:
2x Worldly Tutor
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddok Teeg
3x Burton Forge Tender
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Thrun, The last troll
2x Path to Exile
2x Krosan Grip
1x Kataki

If you haven't tried it, you NEED to run Sylvan Libary. It is very often the best card in the deck.

[Jabari]

I agree with the Sylvan Library comment - I played this list yesterday going 2-1 locally and Library was awesome

4 Wall of Omens
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Eternal Witness
3 Mother of Runes
2 Kor Skyfisher
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Kitchen Finks

3 Aether Vial
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Ghostway
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
7 Plains
5 Forests
2 Karakas

My thoughts:

These two decks definitely run very differently - where you list has transformed into a Tempo Beatdown type build, this thread is more of a bad control with the focus on Mangara. The entire day I felt helpless until I hit 3 mana at which point I prayed for no countermagic.

4 Vials is definitely a must - I tried 3 and was regretting not using a 4th all day.

CB Top is a really bad matchup for this list, punishing fire rapes every creature worth having, running Pridmage MD seems optimal.

I would say this type of build is better suited for an aggro meta whereas Draener's list is good for a balanced meta.

[Draener]

My list started off close to yours, but it was my goal to give up a little on the positive matchups (aggro) to improve the bad matchup's ( combo and control ). The flickerwisp/ skyfisher / witness still gives you a long game, but noble hierarch and flickerwisp or sky fisher is also a brutal clock. Mangara alows you to blow up anything, but witness / wasteland / pridemage allows you to serve basically the same purpose. I've found the worst matchups to be heavy control lists running deeds, or combo. I've found that I can pretty easily beat counterbalance, with the large number of 3 drops, as well as the number of amazing one drops (vial, mother, and even noble hierarch). Flickerwisp lets you remove the balance late game and drop a vial through. Also keep in mind... anything that is removed during an endstep with flickerwisp returns to play during the NEXT endstep. This allows you to remove blockers while still getting your 3/1 flier in. Also very useful to do during your endstep to deny them a plainswalker or a mana for a turn.

[mossivo1986]

This deck is clearly a blast to play. It's pretty rough against combo where your only out is cannonist, but outside of that it's pretty damn sweet. Another weak matchup potentially is landstill, but I think Chris has resolved that. Draener top 40'd indy I think as well.




On a side note
2 words Chris. VIAL BANT. How does it feel buddy. How does it feel?

[Jabari]

My list started off close to yours, but it was my goal to give up a little on the positive matchups (aggro) to improve the bad matchup's ( combo and control ). The flickerwisp/ skyfisher / witness still gives you a long game, but noble hierarch and flickerwisp or sky fisher is also a brutal clock. Mangara alows you to blow up anything, but witness / wasteland / pridemage allows you to serve basically the same purpose. I've found the worst matchups to be heavy control lists running deeds, or combo. I've found that I can pretty easily beat counterbalance, with the large number of 3 drops, as well as the number of amazing one drops (vial, mother, and even noble hierarch). Flickerwisp lets you remove the balance late game and drop a vial through. Also keep in mind... anything that is removed during an endstep with flickerwisp returns to play during the NEXT endstep. This allows you to remove blockers while still getting your 3/1 flier in. Also very useful to do during your endstep to deny them a plainswalker or a mana for a turn.

So I've been thinking about the differences between our lists and I was hoping you could discuss how your Aggro MU is with your latest list. It seems to me like Jotun Grunt is too anti-synergistic with EWit, and could easily be switched for Ghostway. It might look janky but with an EWit already out the sweepers you mentioned having trouble with just cry. I also wanna try and drop 1 Skyfisher just to up Ghostway to 3.

Also what are your thoughts on Hierarch? I know the curve is high but doesn't he hurt in the Aggro MU's we should be favored against when he could be a Wall of Omens/Blossoms?

[Draener]

The game against merfolk has become a different beast since the removal of walls. The matchup comes down to if you can force trades with their lords. If you can keep them at one or two lords, either by swinging with a large knight/ exalted beasty and forcing them to trade, or playing a couple of swords to plowshares off witness, or jitte you win. If you leave them sit for a few turns, their creatures will quickly outclass yours and barring some kind of miracle you won't be able to come back. The major cards you need to shoot with swords are coralhelm commander and Reejory, as they both allow for huge ammounts of damage quick. Overall, however, I found the matchup in to be very similar in win % (close to 55/45 in our favor). In the goblins matchup, I've found that you want to keep them low on mana, by blowing up vials and wastelanding as much as possible. If you can keep them playing one or two goblins a turn, you probably win. Shirk prospector and sharpshooter need to be dealt with ASAP, or bad things will happen. Postboard, things get alot better with 2 path and 3 burton flametenders comming in. In these matchup's hierarch's help you to stay ahead in the mana race, which allows you to aggressively use wastelands while ignoring theirs. Jotun grunt is swingy in these matchups, ranging from being pseudo removal off a vial at two, to being a monster with a couple of exalted triggers and forcing a bunch of bad blocks (or just straight damage if mother is out).

On the subject of jotun grunt, he is actually very rarely anti-synergistic with eternal witness. Most of the time, you are shrinking other peoples goyfs/knights or recycling your horizon canopies/wastelands to get fetched out with knights again. This actually often became relevant in games that go long, because you no longer need as much mana as in the mid-game, and shrinking goyfs often turns them from a 5/6 scary threat into a 3/4 useless garbage. The grunts are also a product of me wanting to have a good game vs dredge. Having them mainboard, with the option of (worldly) tutoring for either him or flametender after the board actually gives you a pretty good matchup.

Now for ghostway, I'm nearly positive that I don't want it main. The only games I lose to merfolk are the ones that I get rushed down fast, and a 3 mana spell pierce-able spell that requires a favorable gamestate is not the way to change that. Same goes for goblins... If I have three mana to spare and two creatures to get value out of ghostway, I'm already in a pretty favoarable position. I lose when they port me down while vialing out ringleaders. Now I could see it being useful vs control, and as such warrents some testing, at the very least for some sideboard slots. Ghostway in responce to a deeds activation would be pretty flippin' awesome. Thrun has also been pretty awesome in these situations, however.

I probably need to speak more to the zoo and affinity matchups. Against these, it comes down to establishing some big knights/eternal witness swords shenanigans. If you get these out you win, other wise you lose. I'de say that these are actually more favorable than the merfolk/ goblins matchup, sitting at about 60/40. Losing to affinity postboard is quite difficult with 2 paths, 2 tutors, 2 grips and kataki coming in. Zoo also has a very large problem with you seeing more sword-effects.

[Jabari]

Thanks for breaking it down like that, it's very helpful.

Judging from your comments/the few games I've played I think I'm going to run the list you have posted this Sunday but: -4 Noble +4 Wall of Omens. My meta is definitely gonna have Fish, and I don't foresee Goblins. I also expect a lot of Deeds so I intend to run a few Ghostway MD. -1 Kor Skyfisher -1 Arid Mesa and something else I haven't decided on. I want to run 3 MD but if I can't find room only 2. As you briefly touched on Ghostway in response to Deed is a HUGE blowout especially if you already have Ewit in play. Trust me it's fun.

Also - in the current meta with more NO Show and less Dredge would you feel comfortable with Grunts in SB and Mangara In their place? Dropping Mangara off their SnT is insane.

[Draener]

Casting show and tell is already decently risky against us, as dropping knight also answers anything Mangara can answer. And Knight is a much better answer to progenisis as well. Of course, having more things to drop is better. I would not cut a land for Ghostaway. If you expect a bunch of deeds, cut one skyfisher and one grunt. What do you expect the metagame to look like?

[Jabari]

It's nothing serious just local but I know there should be Fish, SnT, CB+ Punishing Fire, Junk, Infect, BG Control, possibly Pox

I've never really liked 1-ofs outside of a tutor build unless it's for a game finisher like Elspeth or something. If I were to cut Grunt to 1 I would most likely end up just moving him to SB altogether.

[Draener]

What's your sideboard going to look like? The one of grunt would be used in conjunction with tutors out of the board, allowing you 15 sideboard cards while still being a good card game one. In this meta, it seems that a light black splash would be pretty good for edicts and extirpates out of the board.

[Jabari]

I'm planning on

2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Pithing Needle
2x Worldly Tutor
3x Kitchen Finks
1x Runed Halo
1x Dueling Grounds
2x Relic of Progenitus
// Jotun Grunt ?


EDIT: I actually don't know if I like Tutor post board, what do you cut for it? I plan to run Walls main instead of Hierarch to see how it goes, in which case I don't think I'll have the extra mana for the digging

[Draener]

The tutors only come in for matchups where card disadvantage is less relevant than stopping their crazyness. This basically only means combo and graveyard decks, although I did bring it in against pernicious landstill to find thrun... that guy is worth two cards verse them. In your case, I would probably run enlightened tutor in that spot, and change the relics to crypts. Crypts allow you to use them, then eternal witness them back, which is brutal for loam decks. I would also drop a finks and a teeg to get two paths, which help the merfolk matchup a lot, as well as bant or in your case infect. The finks really shine against smokestack decks and deed decks, but usually path is pretty good against the deed decks, and you should already massacre the stax decks.

[Jabari]

I was considering E tutor but didn't mention it cause I don't have any on hand, but I think i'll be able to get a friend's. I agree with the switch from relics to crypts it sounds really good with Ewit.

I think I'm gonna go with your suggestions and keep the MD variations I mentioned previously to see if Hierarch is needed or not. I'll post here with testing results.

[Jabari]

So I played the deck using the SB or I mentioned -2 Relic +2 Crypt

My list:


4 Eternal Witness
4 Flickerwisp
2 Kor Skyfisher
3 Knight of The Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Mother of Runes
4 Wall of Omens

2 Sylvan Library
3 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

3 Ghostway
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Horizon Canopy
6 Plains
4 Forest


The Manabase is bad I know, I don't have Savannahs, and I'm still trying to get my Wastes. I ran the full set of Canopies mainly for fixing, surprisingly my mana wasn't a problem at any point but there was a lot of problems.

Wall of omens was awesome in creature matchups, unfortunately I played against Aeon Bridge w/ Show, and a Swans of Brynn Arbol with Punishing Fire. As I said earlier we're basically dead to Punishing fire, he didn't play it much in the games we played but I ended up playing too cautiously around it. Wall of Omens is insane CA with Flickerwisp or Ghostway. Chaining Walls against any deck with creatures is sick but anywhere else is awful. I only got to play against Beatdown deck though, In a meta with very heavy tribal I would say swapping Walls for Nobles is justifiable. In a balanced meta definitely Noble, not even close, I agree with Draener.

3 Ghostway is too many, it can easily be 2. It might just get moved to SB, without the walls MD providing CA there might not be enough CIP effects to make it worthwhile.

I still can't find my 4th vial, it is absolutely necessary never play without 4.

Some quick changes -1 Ghostway +1 Aether Vial, -4 Wall of Omens +4 Noble Hierarch. I feel like without Mangara the deck fights to fairly, any thoughts?

[mossivo1986]

mangara isn't an un-fair card. It's a trick, theres a difference. Having mangara in the deck doesn't make it anymore broken then it normally is. The inherent game-plan is fair, which makes this deck fair regardless. Add something like natural order into the deck and all of a sudden you have a broken factor.

[Jabari]

mangara isn't an un-fair card. It's a trick, theres a difference. Having mangara in the deck doesn't make it anymore broken then it normally is. The inherent game-plan is fair, which makes this deck fair regardless. Add something like natural order into the deck and all of a sudden you have a broken factor.

Agreed, let me re-phrase that. I feel like without Mangara, Flickerwisp becomes a lot worse. If you don't have E-Wit out already you end up just port-ing a land or blinking something without really advancing your board state very much. If flickerwisp is to be really beneficial in this list there needs to be more game-breaking interactions.

[perm]

KotR is unbelievably out of place here and will end up inhibiting our gameplan.... it's very powerful, but that doesn't mean it belongs in every GW deck, I would consider goyf over it

[Draener]

KotR is unbelievably out of place here and will end up inhibiting our gameplan.... it's very powerful, but that doesn't mean it belongs in every GW deck, I would consider goyf over it

I respectfully disagree. My gameplan is to win the game, and Kotor does a magnificent job of doing that. You want a big creature to hold the ground, and short of terravore, Knight is the biggest gal around. These days, this can very rarely be said of tarmogoyf, and even less so when you are actively working to make him smaller via eternal witness/grunt. While holding the ground, Knight also keeps you from getting mana flooded by cycling lands into canopies or wastelands. Combined with mom, Knight becomes a fireball for 8+ against most decks.

On the flickerwisp topic, even without walls you get plenty of value out of flickerwisp. Resetting coralhelm commanders or vials, removing things like ensaring bridges or moats, killing planeswalkers like a champ, all the while trading down with creatures to eventually be brought back with eternal witness. At the very least, its a 3/1 flier for 2 that lets you keep swords mana open or wasteland. Also flickerwhisp on flickerwhisp is pretty darn good value.

On a different note, grimlavamancer is a real problem for this deck. Sometimes grunt/kotor make him seem less than stellar, but often times he is a targeted abyss on us. On color options for dealing with this are SoFI, jitte, Absolute law, paths, sunlance, harm's way and such. A black splash provides darkblast/ engineered plauge, both of which have several targets besides lavamancer. I'm not sure what the best option is, but I've been loading up on path's in the board and hoping for the best.

[AncientSion]

Why play Sylvan Library over Mirris Guile ?

[Draener]

Because Sylvan Library draws you cards, while Mirris Guile does not. For the extra mana, it is generally worth it.

[AncientSion]

Has anyone ever tried another splash insteaf of G ? It seems G is only here for Witness.

[Jabari]

Without witness this deck becomes a lot weaker. After playing with it for the past couple weeks with different iterations each time I have always wanted E-Wit. I added Green Sun's Zenith just so I could find them easier. That being said I think Ghostway may have to be moved to the SB or just stricken altogether. The deck is just far too heavy at the 3 CMC slot. Noble Hierarch and [/cards] Aether Vial[/cards] have to be a four-of to support how many, and I feel there are still too many 3 costs. If KOTR were to be swapped for 'Goyf it would be purely because of CMC.

Personally, I'm feeling a little burnt out on the deck as it hasn't been performing well against established decks. I haven't tried Draener's exact list yet so I might before I abandon hope.

[Draener]

Other things to test out: Absolute Law. Take that punishing fire swans deck. Even his swans are pro red :p. Peace Keeper also seems good against show and tell / Eon Bridge deck. For a while, I ran the black splash for extirpate and Engineered plague, because Witness on extirpate was nothing short of hilarious. I only ran one scrubland to support this, and never really found it a problem.

[perm]

If you turn this into Bant, it's going to be weaker until you gut the entire thing and replace it with a Bant decklist. that goes without saying. This is why I am against throwing in silver bullets like KotR and sylvan library (having one enchantment also opens you up to virtual CA for the enemy). Maybe dicussion of such should be in a new thread, or in the bant thread, but this thread concerns using midrange creatures with powerful CITP effects for efficient and compact aggro-control, specifically using ghostway as the engine. Diluting the gameplan and ability to win because "Omg KotR/goyf is teh awesome" is counter intuitive

[Jabari]

I don't know why you're comparing this to Bant? Yes we are advocating Hierarch but only because 3 CMC spells are in excess. The core is still intact, but I think the core is the problem being that everything costs 3. The deck is consistently too slow without Vial. Yes that's why we run 4, but everytime you draw you're praying for a Vial. As you stated earlier you almost always Mulligan in search of a Vial. Noble makes the hands without Vial still keepable.

[perm]

vial being necessary for opening hand isn't true at all. I am perfectly happy with a StP in my opening hand, ready to melt a lackey or hierarch or nacatl. If my opponent is a slow control deck, vial first turn is nice but not necessary. Waiting until t2 to drop wall of blossoms is just fine for that. I will playtest and see how it works out. But sticking big popular beaters in here just makes the deck a suckier version of other decks. We should try to be making something unique and a viably different archetype here, not rely on "oh yah these creatures are OP in these other decks lets mush the decklists together"

[Jabari]

I wouldn't call 3 KOTR mushing decklists together. It's a powerful finisher and is basically just a swap for Mangara, Mangara could easily be in that slot which would be more true to the original list. The problem with Mangara is again it puts further importance on dropping a turn 1 Vial. Vial at 3 is absolutely essential for Flickerwisp and Mangara tricks. If you drop it turn 2 that means you won't be getting the best value out of it until turn 5! Again I'll emphasize, I like the concept of the deck it just needs to find a way to compensate for its heavy number of 3 drops. Hierarch does that by accelerating and fixing, especially since they are all double costed in opposing colors.

[perm]

Ok, I updated the SB. -3 PtE because in the situations I would side them in, a sweeper is better (ghostway combo is wicked).

I need your help and my own playtesting to answer the following:

Does jotun grunt go in mainboard or sideboard or none?

What do i cut for it? Answer would probably be wrath and/or finks in sideboard, and mangara/mom for main.

I think he is too much of a nonbo with witness tbh, as awesome of a card he is.

Creatures 25
4 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wall of Omens
4 Eternal Witness
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mother of Runes
2 Kor Skyfisher
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Mangara of Corondor

Spells 15
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
4 Ghostway
1 Sword of Feast and famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands 20
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
5 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Forest

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Pithing Needle
2 Perimeter Captain
3 Wrath of God

[Draener]

Tbh, I would not run grunt in your list. You don't have the manabase to support him. I run 13 lands that I send to my own graveyard, 6 of which have a benifit in being back in my deck. Also ghostaway + wrath of god is 7 mana. How have you not won if you have 7 mana? I think you need good old fashion graveyard hate for your list, since grunt is only a decent way to hate the yard as supplimental hate. Tormod's Crypt is probably best, at should probably be a 3 of. I would replace a wrath and the two perimeter captains for them. I would probably also run grip over the two shusher's in the board, possibly a thrun. Let us know how the matchups work out.

[Uncoordinated]

@ Perm

Just wondering why you only have the four fetchlands and so many basics. The obvious answer is life loss is relevant, I suppose. I would've liked to put at least a couple Horizon Canopies in place of a couple of basics, but the lack of fetches makes you more vulnerable to Wastelands. Even so I would suggest cutting a few basics for white fetches, as they play well with Witness and can colour fix in a pinch.

Also, why do you want Wall of Blossoms over Wall of Omens? It seems your deck leans more heavily towards white in the first place and green creatures are hated on more, and you're not running GSZ.

I would suggest cutting Walls for a Grunt or two, but I don't really think it's worth it in your list either. You don't have any grave hate to compliment his ability, nor do you run KotR/Canopy/Wasteland. He is basically a Wall that doesn't replace himself, can beat ( noteworthy with equips, but unlikely due to what I would've cut for him ), and sort of shores up some matchups. But your sideboard indicates that you don't give any shits about yard-based decks anyway.

If you're having trouble with NOGenitus, I would suggest upping the Teeg count instead of WoG ( what else are you using this for? ), and adding BFTs in the board over Captains. They cover more matchups, are better against Goblins, worse against Zoo, and you can recur them so hard with Witness shenanigans.


Also, O Ring?

[perm]

Tbh, I would not run grunt in your list. You don't have the manabase to support him. I run 13 lands that I send to my own graveyard, 6 of which have a benifit in being back in my deck. Also ghostaway + wrath of god is 7 mana. How have you not won if you have 7 mana? I think you need good old fashion graveyard hate for your list, since grunt is only a decent way to hate the yard as supplimental hate. Tormod's Crypt is probably best, at should probably be a 3 of. I would replace a wrath and the two perimeter captains for them. I would probably also run grip over the two shusher's in the board, possibly a thrun. Let us know how the matchups work out.

The ghostway-wrath combo is done by playing ghostway at the end of the their turn, then playing a t4 wrath to wipe the board.

perimeter captain is literally a bye against aggro. The meta is so aggro heavy that I could not with good conscience cut it, I am considering putting 3 in SB.

Also, BFT is nice and much better in a vacuum than captain, but is too limited in comparison to perimited captain.

Updates: -2 Vexing Shusher, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Pithing Needle. What is the view of my SB and ability to fight countertop? I have had some trouble with my deck vs that once it's down, since I have such an easy CMC curve, butts get sorta kicked. Relic-warder is nice, especially with the double removal with ghostway

[Draener]

You are correct about ghostway at EOT, for some reason I thought the ability was different from flickerwisps. If you are worried about countertop... run 3 krosan grips in the baord. Replace the Relic warders, as grip is much more reliable. Also, don't just run grip into counterbalance... as they may be floating a 3. Wait to cast a 1 or 2, then grip it after they reveal. Sure you lose one extra card... but atleast you don't lose grip which is infintely more important.

[perm]

I drops some serious flow on the cards in this deck today, I am going to start playtesting it seriously with good players IRL. I am inverting the omens/blossoms proportions, and -3 forests +3 horizon canopy. Considering KotR, especially with the Horizon Canopy addition. the curve is playing out very nicely. Mana is an absolute non-issue. I may in fact only run 3 savannah and replace with a plains just to resist wasteland.

[Jabari]

Mana is an absolute non-issue.

I disagree entirely, for the past few weeks I have been testing this list against serious decks and it hasn't performed well enough for me. I've been using Kotr and it has become stronger as a result but the problem still remains that the combo is slow and expensive. Noble Hierarch is a must, without it you're relying on 4 Aether Vial to do too much.

As Draener said originally the list with walls, kitchen finks, and mangara is great against aggro decks but that is about it. Goyf counterbalance is passable but punishing fire ruins your day. It is way too slow against combo and most control as all they have to do is counter the turn 1 vial to set you back really far.

I've been playing different lists every week that slowly and slowly become more like Draener's because as he said what we give up against Aggro is made up for in balancing out our other matchups. Walls are bad so often they were always the first thing I boarded out, against everything but zoo, fish, or goblins.

But back to the original point. Mana is a big problem for this deck, the three drops need to be trimmed. E-Wit and Flickerwisp and Kotr and Ghostway is way too many. I suggest cutting a couple E-wits for GSZ. I've been testing it and the versatility is amazing.

[perm]

that's my main objection against KotR, it's just too crowded at 3 mana. I am considering -1 Flickerwisp +1 Kor Skyfisher, but flickerwisp is a better card so that may be painful. The thing about mangara is, this format is more or less aggro vs combo, with aggro being more prevalent. The only real present control deck is countertop variants, and mangara shuts them down quite well. the SB packs combo hate with needles, teegs and canonists. E-wit is probably the best control resistance available, as you can more efficiently recur than they can remove.

As for GSZ, theres only one green creature in deck...

[Jabari]

Creatures 25
4 Wall of Blossoms
1 Wall of Omens
4 Eternal Witness
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mother of Runes
2 Kor Skyfisher
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Mangara of Corondor

Spells 15
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
4 Ghostway
1 Sword of Feast and famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands 20
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
5 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Forest

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Pithing Needle
2 Perimeter Captain
3 Wrath of God

The list that would benefit most from GSZ requires an overhaul of the utility in your creature base. While the above list stomps aggro it is completely dead to combo game 1. By adding GSZ it's easy to add a single MD Teeg to improve the matchup, hopefully stalling them long enough for you to beatdown. The above list has 17 spells with CMC 3 which as we've mentioned is a problem. Here is the list I've found to be more successful in a balanced meta (it is unmistakably similar to Draener's).

Creatures 23

1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Kotr
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Eternal Witness
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes

Spells 17

4 Aether Vial
4 StP
3 GSZ
2 Jitte
2 Ghostway
2 Sylvan Library

Lands 20

3 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Forest
2 Plains

The benefit of this list is it can swap between beatdown and tempo when necessary. I've shaved numbers to accommodate Jotun Grunt before and it was welcome when I saw him. He's basically a 'goyf killer with the added bonus of recycling wastelands and canopies. Qasali Pridemage is amazing, I would never play Relic Warder of him in this list. Recycling Pridemages with E-wit is wayyy better than wasting a Flicker-trick on a Relic Warder. Also in the same way I shaved numbers for Grunt, the same can be done to support Mangara as a 2 or 3 of (though I would really recommend only 2).

Edit: Also Relic Warders should become Tormod's Crypt in the SB

[perm]

-2 warder +2 crypt done. good idea

But what is with this irrational sylvan library fanboyism? that's for decks that play much faster than this and need much faster recharge/shuffle aways. We can get wildly more effective card draw with just draw walls

[Jabari]

I disagree, play with both Kotr and Library out and you'll see why it's insane. Library allows you to dig deeper faster than the walls. In the event you don't get to Ghostway or Flicker the walls, all they do is replace themselves. Library does that and more.

[Draener]

This deck is incredibly powerful when it sees the answers you want, when you want them. Libarary lets you do this more consistantly. Your opponent low on mana? Found a wasteland. Got a vial? Found a creature at that CMC. Already have a vial? Never draw that third vial. Against control, it can usually safely draw you 3 cards, more if you get jitte or they swords knight. Overall, library is just a card that makes your deck do what its designed to do more consistantly.

Anyone run into decks running lavamancer? Giant pain in my ass.

[Jabari]

I haven't yet but I can imagine it being much like playing against punishing fire. Not much can be done against them due to the very low toughness of all of our creatures -Kotr.

Also, I played against Meandeck MUD this weekend and got curb-stomped. Turn 3 Sundering Titan on the play ruined my day. Even with Needle naming Welder game 2 I couldn't keep up. This is such a bad MU I might consider Null Rod in the SB just because of it.

[Draener]

Mean deck MUD does seem like it would be bad news. The null rod is actually a pretty great way to hate out that deck, as well as affinity, while having the added benifit of being great against combo. I'm thinking of going back to the etutor plan over the wtutor. Serenity might be another good choice, as it hits enchantress, afinity and probably MUD as well.

[perm]

Wasteland exacerbates the mana Problems we just hilighted.

Anyway I did some testing. Kotr is only good against aggro which is not a problem anyway, and it can definetly replace mangarA. MangarA doesnt do much vs aggro except exacerbate mana problems since their cards are interchangeable. I have tried 3 ghostway and not so sure about the difference. More testing will tell, but 2 is simply horrible, the decks potential will not be reached

[Jabari]

Wasteland exacerbates the mana Problems we just hilighted.

Anyway I did some testing. Kotr is only good against aggro which is not a problem anyway, and it can definetly replace mangarA. MangarA doesnt do much vs aggro except exacerbate mana problems since their cards are interchangeable. I have tried 3 ghostway and not so sure about the difference. More testing will tell, but 2 is simply horrible, the decks potential will not be reached

The mana problems we highlighted don't have to do with color fixing, if you need the waste don't pop it - it's that simple. If you are running KOTR and can support waste you should play it. It takes care of Grove of the Burnwillows (which if you haven't faced is basically like running head on into a machine gun), Academy Ruins, Vaults, Tabernacle, Mazes - All lands this deck has problems with.

Your explanation for including Kotr makes no sense. If he only helps against aggro, and the aggro MU is favorable why would you add him? Especially when you're dropping a card that is better against your non-aggro opponents? While Kotr is good in the aggro MU it is also good against SnT, and allows us to play beatdown against control. The problem with Mangara against control is it forces the deck to try and play control when their deck is more advantaged to that play style. Kotr gives this list the flexibility to beatdown while maintaining it's control style elements with Ghostway, Flickerwisp, E-wit combo.

I play only 2 because it's awful in your opening 7 and I'd rather topdeck it. Also it isn't great in multiples, if your board is underdeveloped it won't save you. The more threats you have out the better Ghostway is, therefore I play more threats and less Ghostway.

[perm]

My explanation is AGAINST including kotr. The card is just "win more" against decks that this deck autowins against by its very nature.

[perm]

-1 Ghostway -1 Kitchen Finks +1 Sword of Light/Shadow +1 Mother of Runes to help balance out the curve, plus mom is so good.

Having 3 swords for the protection I need ha sprovent o be quite awesome, especially since I can board out dead protections. testig has shone quote favorably on this current build.

[Jabari]

What have you tested against other than aggro? Mangara is good but not better than Kotr in this list. The more I test the more I feel like Kotr wins me games Mangara never could.

[perm]

I have tested against various storm combos, belcher, PW control decks, CB-top, thresh, rock

Storm combos were my hardest and mangara obviously doesnt help much there, it *devastates* any deck that heavily uses jaces/PW, and thresh is just a basically favorable matchup for me, and I just do what the rock does but better, so that isn't a problem. Cb top is better than expected, depending. Again, mangara is a goddess in this matchup, I have the ability to take their engine offline far more efficiently than they can recover.

[Jabari]

In that case I would suggest cutting Perimeter Captain and maybe some Wraths from the SB to make room for E-Tutor and any combination of Rule of Law, Null Rod, and possibly Leyline of Sanctity. Plus E-tutor makes Canonist more consistent

Edit: Also Draener and I have both had problems against Lavamancer/Punishing fire. Have you experienced the same or just dodged the MU?

[perm]

I have not encountered that matchup. I also forgot to mention show-and-tell variants. They seem to be 50/50. Karakas is *the* answer to emrakul, and I usually end up drawing it before emrakul enters the battlefield. Progenitus is a litle harder, but the wraths and gaddock teegs are often sufficient to fight it.

I am hesitant to remove perimeter captains because they made aggro matchups a bye, and can be vialed in for serious lifegain. I will test with sanctity.

Canonist is almost certainly better than rule of law and can still be tutored for, but I am not sold on using e-tutor yet.

For now I am going to playtest four leylines of sanc. Hopefully this can overwhelm storm decks and I can mull into it pretty easily.

[Draener]

Another card I want to be good, but probably isnt is dust elemental. Infinate rebuys with witness! I am a chump for recursion. Noble hierarch would ease the 4 casing cost, possibly enough to see play as a 2 of... but perhaps I am just dreaming.

[Jabari]

Another card I want to be good, but probably isnt is dust elemental. Infinate rebuys with witness! I am a chump for recursion. Noble hierarch would ease the 4 casing cost, possibly enough to see play as a 2 of... but perhaps I am just dreaming.

I have been trying to make Dust elemental work in every deck that runs white! I'm so obsessed with it, I've actually run it a few times and the CMC is never the problem, it's always the 3 creatures on board. That is so hard to accomplish in any deck besides tribal right now. Of course it sounds awesome on paper, returning 3 creatures with citp abilities?! TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE! - well it kind of is, more often than not they get countered or killed before you hit the magic number, and when you do it's hard to get full value out of it.

Something maybe worth considering that can fill a similar role Mystic enforcer, it used to be a beast why not anymore? Similar to the elemental's face-beating power but probably limited in it's application here.

If Dust Elemental were considered, I'm fairly certain Ghostway would have to be abandoned and in the circumstances when you want to get value out of your CITP effects Ghostway is better due to it being less mana intensive. Dust Elemental is just huge though. If I had Workstation or Apprentice I would play around with it, but I don't.

[Draener]

I have dreams of flashing him in and blocking a tombstalker. It would make my day.

[Jabari]

Epiphany... maybe... possibly

In my build I'm running GSZ so I think a tutorable Sylvan Safekeeper may be what this deck needs for when Lavamancer or Punishing Fire gets active --- Or is Jotun Grunt just a better answer? problem is he doesn't stick around, doesn't protect himself and isn't tutorable.

[Draener]

I think at that point, a slight black splash for extirpate/ darkblast would just be a better option. Extirpate helps with combo as well. You can get two, maybe three activations out of the safekeeper before you dont want to sacrifice anymore lands, and these threats keep comming. Life from the loam would be a good way to deal with punishing fire... just waste them out. Decks like that usually have aweful mana bases, so you could get added benifit.

[Jabari]

I don't think LftL has a place in this list, it seems more like something Green and Taxes has more use for than us. Wasteland in this list isn't as important as it is for their list. I don't like the black splash either because it makes Wasteland harder to run and also opens us up to be more vulnerable to Wasteland.

[Draener]

Wasteland might not be overly important in our list, but against control I can tell you that it breaks the match wide open. I would suggest them in the board as such, if it helps you against other matchups as well. A single scrubland is enough to support the black splash (assuming all your fetchs get white), and you only bring in the black cards against decks that don't have mana disruption anyways. That said, what your trying to do is build the best 75 for what ever meta you aim to play against. Absolute law helps zoo, goblins, and punishing fire. Extirpate helps combo, punishing fire, and control. Loam helps against color greedy decks (usually control, but also applies to Team America) and mana denial decks. Choose what ever card you think fits the decks your most likely to run into. Also post the decks you are trying to sideboard to beat.. and the decks your sideboard currently beats, but bearly and I will have a better understanding of how your deck plays out.

[Jabari]

I think wastleland is fine main due to the stability of the mana with Noble in my list. The list I plan on running is posted on page 7 of this thread in response to Perm. Although I'm thinking about trimming Qasali to 3 and either Noble or Mom to 3 which leaves 2 open spots. These spots can either be used for 2 Grunts, 2 SFM (in which case I might drop something for a SoFI MD), 2 Mystic Enforcer, 1 SFM 1 Elspeth? your thoughts?

My SB will be close to this:

1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Runed Halo
2 Pithing Needle
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Absolute Law
1 ? (maybe E-tutor #3)
2 Enlightened Tutor

I expect to see Fish, Enchantress, CB Top, Meandeck MUD, Junk, BG Control, SnT, and possibly WW

Edit: the Flex Spot could be SoFI, or should that be MD?

[Draener]

How about dropping the runed halo and dueling grounds for two ensaring bridges? Good against merfolk, show and tell, and junk( and enchantress if empty the throne is their win condition). Against merfolk, sculpt your hand to the size where your guys can attack and theirs can't. I'de also give the null rod a shot... meandeck mud really doesn't have any way to deal with it. As for SoFi, I would test to see if you can play/equip it in a timely fashion now that you have hierarch, and if you can I would run it main. If not, it probably doesn't deserve a sb slot, as you don't really have a ton of time against merfolk.

[Jabari]

I wanna keep the Runed Halo just because it's literally my only answer to Progenitus. What do you think about Ghostly Prison in place of Dueling Grounds though? I don't have any ensnaring bridges so I don't know if I'll be able to get them in time, same goes for the Null Rod, I definitely need to find the Rod though cause MUD is beast.

What do you think about the possible Flex spots MD?

[perm]

If i play hierarch I am cutting Mother of runes. What are your thoughts?

Flex slots are probably that card if a one drop is replacing it, as well as the 5th wall. 4 walls is enough if your meta isnt very aggro, BUT ive found and ran some stat programs and found that the 5 walls provide a lot of mana stability that this deck needs to get 3 lands consistently.

Also, dust elemental looks cool, but beware the lure of cool things. Most of the time he will be an unplayable card that just ruins your board position, and can barely ever be vialed out sensibly. We want to return cards that we can immediately play so we can get their ETB but have an unchanged or better board position.

[Draener]

Pretty sure ensnaring bridge ALSO answers progenisis... unless you plan on keeping 10 cards in hand.

[Jabari]

Pretty sure ensnaring bridge ALSO answers progenisis... unless you plan on keeping 10 cards in hand.

Haha Fair enough, I didn't mean Bridge doesn't answer Progenitus but it's the only thing I OWN that answers Progenitus. I don't think I'll be able to get Bridges in time for Sunday if I find some though I'll definitely make the swap. Do you think Ghostly Prison is good enough if I don't find bridges?

Also a small rules question in relation to Bridge: Say I have 2 cards in hand, can I swing with a Qasali Pridemage - allow Bridge trigger to resolve then allow exalted to resolve or is that not possible?

@Perm

That seems like a fair trade, the deck should run either MoM or Walls probably not both. I chose to run MoM but it's definitely a meta call, they serve the same purpose as an early blocker. I like MoM because it allows you to swing in for the kill un-hindered, I make up for the lack of card draw by playing Libraries. Your list on the other hand maxes out on it's capacity to draw off your walls with Ghostway/Flickerwisp.

[Draener]

If you can't get bridges, halo works fine, just seems a bit more narrow. And yes... exalted applies +1/+1 after attack is declared, bridge checks before, so you can swing through. I used this in a different deck to kill someone with a birds of paradise and 2 noble hierarchs... and my bridge. No cards in hand... swing with birds each turn for 2. It was pretty entertaining.

[AncientSion]

We need more stuff like mangara, then add quirion ranger and scryb ranger and abuse the stack. Knight would be good with that, but it doesnt really generate CA but maybe CQ.

Any suggestions ?

[Jabari]

Scryb seems like a quality 1 of because of the evasion plus stops some Fish. Of course I say 1 of in relation to a list using GSZ. It could be a valuable 1 of but it would have to be at the expense of Jotun Grunts MD. I don't like running Grunt as a 1 of MD that can't be tutored for though.

[perm]

running scryb ranger solely for mangara abuse seems sorta bad if thats its only application

Also, Jabari, do you mean MoM or hierarch? that makes sense, because they should exclude eachother. But walls? was that a typo? they are an essential 2 drop with an actual CITP trigger that we need. I think it's either MoM or heirarch

[Jabari]

running scryb ranger solely for mangara abuse seems sorta bad if thats its only application

Actually on 2nd thought, it has the potential to cripple our mana production which is still being ironed out. We should test out the new curve/accelerants before considering scryb ranger.

Edit: @ Perm how has your testing with SFM gone? I'm considering cutting the Grunts for SFM instead.

[perm]

a bigger issue is the list is competitive slots, and while ranger seems cool, there is no way it could outcompete the other cards just because of mangara tricks

[Jabari]

Scryb Ranger is definitely stronger in lists that can utilize both mangara and Kotr. The numbers are too tight I think on this list to support both while maintaining the "engine."

SFM or Grunt?

[perm]

what's SFM? And we established that grunt is pretty subpar with our gameplan here

[Uncoordinated]

SFM is Stoneforge Mystic. They should basically replace KotR, or perhaps a wall or two, since ideally weenie + equipment will take the place of big beats and walls don't really play well with anything except a charged Jitte. However, walls are really an integral part of the deck, and I don't really like removing them, as they're pretty much the only thing that comes down fast and generates card parity/advantage immediately.

That said, while I think SFM is a very strong card with a good etb trigger, I don't know if she's right for lists running walls and lots of enter/exit tricks, as equipping is a lot of work. Perhaps a token inclusion in the maindeck, like 1 SFM / 1 Jitte maindeck, and 1 SFM / 1 equip in the sideboard if you've got a lot of tribal?

[perm]

The thing about the two number is that I will be milking their triggers VERY quickly with blink. Once I have basically one SFM on the board, I will be quickly fleecing my deck of the probable 3 equips that I have not already drawn. SFM is a very powerful card, but not when I top deck it when I already have all my equipment out.

[Jabari]

I'm gonna be honest Perm - I'm a little drunk, and that is a ridiculous comment! of course SFM is bad when you draw all the equips, what the fuck kind of statement is that... obviously it's bad if it can't search for anything. my question is, what's better MD, Grunt or SFM?

Grunt nukes goyf and other grave based stategy, while SFM allows for heavier beats with Flickerwisp. My question was how important has equiping been for you? is it necessary? are you fine without equipment?

come on man

[Uncoordinated]

Not that I'm Perm or anything, but I kinda feel like I should say something here..

Jabari, I think your list would benefit the most from maindeck SFM. While you've got a lot of good stuff you can recycle while shrinking opponent yards, you also run a lot of guys that would benefit from equips. You shouldn't be having any trouble with Goyf as your one drop ( Vial/Hierarch/Mom ) will mean you will be rapidly outclassing Goyf. You run no sorceries, which makes him a 3/4 most of the time unless you had a Vial/equip countered/nuked.

Since you don't run Walls for draw, it's unlikely you're going to find your equips when you really need them, and it also means that all your guys can hold a weapon. You also run Nobles + Moms, which both work wonders with equipment, allowing you to equip in a timely manner + obvious Mom tricks.

However, I think your list is really starting to move away from what this deck is all about. Ghostway on Wall + other critter is a great, commonly used stalling tactic that lets you play out your midrange game better. I'd probably shift entirely away from Ghostway/Witness stuff with your list, since you don't have Skyfishers or Wisps or Mangara main'd.

[Draener]

I think this forum as whole needs to get away from statements like this card goes against the "feeling" of this deck. What we should be doing here is trying to improve our decks to be as competitive as we can get in the current meta. Jabari's list is close enough to Perm's that they can still be discussed in the same forum, and I think we all benifit from hearing different perspectives. Seperating these lists into different forums would really make two threads where at most two or three people ever post, which gives you half as much perspective as you get now.

Now, the stoneforge mystic comment kind of urked me as well, as obvious statement is obvious, but he does have a point. Stoneforge mystic does rapidly become shit with flicker effects. After the first equipment, your're probably struggling for mana. After the second, you probably have none. Now if you can get an equipment to stick on the first try, this mana investment is definately worth it. If they bolt you're dude, and you get the equip to stick on the second guy it MIGHT be worth it. At that point you're probably a decent amount of board presence behind, since they have been using they're mana to do stuff, while you have been using your mana to do effectively nothing.

Taking what I said above into consideration, I believe stoneforge mystic is at it's best when the decks you play against have limited removal. If you don't expect to see a lot of removal, you probably can get a decent payoff for tutoring for a sword and equiping it. If not, I would rather just have a big dude that they will probably need to chump before he kills himself (grunt).

This further brings me to the upside of grunt. Uncoordinated, you say that goyf is rarely bigger than a 3/4 but I find that this is almost never the case. The decks that run goyf either run they're own sorceries, or will be countering your vials/libaries. Now walls can chump a 3/4 goyf all day, but as soon as he makes that jump to a 4/5 there is nothing in you're proposed deck to deal with him, and he is NEVER going to get smaller. Don't get me wrong, I've raced goyf by throwing down chump blockers while my fliers punched in there for a couple of turnsand won, but every time I've done this board state has been heavily tilted in my favor.

To sum it all up, if your meta has heavy removal... do NOT run mystic. If you need to shrink alot of goyf's and Knights and generally hose graveyards, run grunts. If you think you will see a lot of tribal, and want to hedge your bets against them, run mystic. If none of these situation's apply, run whatever you feel like.

Hope this helps.

[Jabari]

However, I think your list is really starting to move away from what this deck is all about. Ghostway on Wall + other critter is a great, commonly used stalling tactic that lets you play out your midrange game better. I'd probably shift entirely away from Ghostway/Witness stuff with your list, since you don't have Skyfishers or Wisps or Mangara main'd.

I do MD the Wisps, they're a 4-of in my list, and I still run Ghostway E-Wit Main. The best plays with Ghostway don't involve Wall plus other creature, it's at its best when you have at least 1 Wisp and 1 E Wit out.

I don't like Kor Skyfisher because more often than not when I played it I was just bouncing a land, which is bad if the goal is to bounce one of your cantrip creatures. The best purpose it ever served for me was dodging Punishing Fire long enough to beatdown. I sacrificed Mangara for Kotr mainly due to Punishing Fire, and because with a Mom out Kotr is a fast finisher. It's essentially the same deck just with a different finisher. I do fix mana differently by playing Nobles instead of walls the reasoning being Walls allow you to wait for more land while Noble is just a 2nd land drop. It's more open to removal but I'm still testing it.

Thank you Draener, that was very helpful. When I ran Grunt previously he was all upside so for now I think I'll keep him in the build.

Also are there any other Green Creatures with CITP effects that I should consider as a 1 of tutor target for GSZ?

[perm]

not trying to be mean, youve been a valuable contributor to this thread, but going with grunts/GSZ/kotr in lieu of walls etc will just make this deck a subpar version of other decks. I'm not saying it isnt worth testing or discussing, but whats going to happen is it will begin to fork and branch off and stop being something to talk about in the same thread. Though, in other news, I have -1 Skyfisher +1 Flickerwisp for reasons you mentioned, it isnt a good deal most of the early game.

I have ran some analytics at deckstats.net, and the curve is quite favorable. Hierarch does real nice things, but it feels painful to cut MoM, which is such a monster and it's the flex slot for hierarch.

More somewhat nebulous matchup info: my sideboard allows me to go toe-to-toe with combo favorably. MoM makes my problem creatures all but immune for their methods of removal, and I am easily able to opening 7 or mulligan into free leylines. Wisp and skyfisher allow me to reset needle if I need to, Karakas MD makes emrakul a joke, mangara too, wrath of god isn't too reliable to draw but when it is drawn it is always a game changer.

Aggro is more of the same, like 85-15. though I haven't come across merfolk, I need to try that matchup but it keeps avoiding me.

[Draener]

I really do like four flickerwisp. He gets you out of so many bad situations, all the while being a pretty badass threat. Sky fisher is pretty amazing with vial, but without it he isn't really great until you get a ton of mana. Perm, what decks do you expect to face in your meta? The deck has a lot of room to be tailored to the decks you expect to face, and it's hard to make suggestions without knowing what you face on a regular basis. Except flickerwisp... that guy is always a pro :wink:.

If you never run into merfolk, it explains why you can run 3-4 ghostways. Against merfolk, that card is beyond aweful. Spell pierce and curse catchermake sure that it cannot be cast before their guys are all bigger than your walls and trampling down the fort.

To Jabari... I just did a search on gatherer for green creatures with <=3 CMC and some good CITP triggers... the only one really worth mentioning is loaming shaman.

[perm]

Uh well I just emigrated to new zealand where legacy isn't too common at all, so i really don't know. I played in real life once (with some proxy cards) against two legacy decks and won both, but the meta here is pretty fetal. They were both playing aggro decks so I punched them in the face real hard.

[perm]

bumping this thread, but I am curious, do you all think this sideboard is suitable for an unknown meta? I personally predict people playing high tide due to the publicity and alarmism.

[Draener]

Which sideboard? I'm having a hard time finding your board.

[perm]

from the front page

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Wrath of God

[Draener]

No glaring weaknesses, but I would recommend cutting a Teeg and a leyline/finks to try enlightened tutor. If you haven't tested it, you really should. It's awesome against dredge and combo, being able to hide your hate from discard (top of library).

[perm]

I am defs going to keep 4 leyline for opening 7 consistency, and the 2 teegs are because teeg is quite good with karakas/vial shenanigans. I have used enlightened tutor, and it is certainly cool it's too much of an undesirable topdeck in a deck where threat density si exceptionally important

[klaus]

How about stonecloaker over skyfisher?
Skyfisher will typically bounce creatures too and that +1 power and the reusable gy hate effect plus flash, which definitely is relevant when it comes to protecting your guys should justify its cost imo.

[perm]

How about stonecloaker over skyfisher?
Skyfisher will typically bounce creatures too and that +1 power and the reusable gy hate effect plus flash, which definitely is relevant when it comes to protecting your guys should justify its cost imo.

I considered stonecloaker, but a problem in this deck is crowding at 3 CMC. Flickerwisp is just better and I will up it to 4 before I add stonecloaker. Stonecloaker definitely is not bad, its use is just very crowded and competitive. Skyfisher is nice because it has a similarly solid flying body for only 2 cmc. the 2 CMC slot needs filling and balance especially since vial is being played.

[Jabari]

So I played my list this past weekend locally and once again got stomped by Punishing Fire. This time I came prepared with Absolute Law in the SB and in Game 2 he countered it 4 times! Yea, I lost that game. If it stuck I might have had a shot though.

Anyway, I played against Lands, Burn, Team America, and Swans/Punishing Fire.dec. I can get into further detail if needed but at the moment I don't feel like typing much.

Lands is a really good MU for the deck, I won 2-0

Burn was really REALLY close, and if I could afford Dual lands instead of pain lands I think I could have pulled it out but I lost 1-2.

Team America didn't feel like a bad MU but I lost 0-2. I could never find the StP for his Tombstalker game 1. I made a ridiculous mistake game 2 though which could have swung the match in my favor. He boarded in Consuming Vapors and played it when I had 2 Pridemages and a Hierarch out. I sac the Hierarch to the first copy and on my turn I have the opportunity to GSZ for Teeg to shut it down but for some reason I thought I boarded it out and fetched a 3rd pridemage instead. Yea, I lost that game too.

Punishing Fire stomps this deck, I lost 0-2. Either land Absolute Law or die, that's pretty much it. I'm looking forward to the new extirpate coming out in NPH, it will definitely be in the SB once it's released.

Until that card is released I'll probably take a break from this deck and try to refine something else. Most likely Library of Congress, the new thread I just posted.

[perm]

If I run into punishing fire, im definitely going to try Surgical Extractions at least 3x in SB. But in my meta (very undeveloped) it probably will not be encountered. I have my savannahs, so I feel good about not taking any pain or shock except for the random horizon canopy. Did you side in any extra finks for burn? What was your SB for the MUs and what did you side in?

[Jabari]

1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Runed Halo
2 Pithing Needle
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Absolute Law
2 Enlightened Tutor

I don't remember what I used in the last slot, it might of been ghostly prison but that doesn't seem right.

Anyway against lands I boarded out Mom's and a couple StP, putting in 2 Etutor, 2 Needle, 2 Crypt. I didn't SB out all the removal because I knew he would be bringing in Dark Confidant.

Against Burn I don't remember what I took out but I remember putting in Absolute Law, the other Teeg, 2 Finks, and maybe 1 tutor. He was running Lavamancer so I might have put in Crypts, but I don't think I did, I had Grunts MD anyway. I think I just trimmed numbers cutting 1 Ewit 1 Wisp 1 StP 1 GSZ and I took out the 2 Ghostways. Something like that...

Also the problem against Burn was I tutored for Finks using Canopy so I only gained 1 and then I blinked it with flickerwisp to stay afloat. He had exact damage in hand though thanks to how much canopy had dealt me. If it was a savannah I would have been able to pull it out with Kotr.

Against Team America I brought in 2 Needles, 1 Halo, 2 Tutors, and 1 other card probably Crypt. I took out 2 Ghostways, and trimmed numbers again. I brought in Needle thinking he might have Deed but he didn't so it was kind of a waste. I had the opportunity to totally mana screw him but I didn't have the balls. I had both needles in my opening hand game 2 and I could have dropped a them both turn 2 naming polluted delta and verdant catacombs. He ended up dropping 3 Polluted delta's and a catacomb, he would have been stuck with 1 underground sea, but oh well it would have been a gamble.

Against Punishing Fire I brought in Absolute Law, 2 Tutors, 2 Pithing Needles (one of his win conditions is Jace), and Runed Halo. I don't remember much about this actually I just remember throwing in Absolute Law with the Tutors, the other stuff is fuzzy. Then as I said before I proceeded to get stomped.

[Draener]

Ouch. That sucks. The new extirpate is actually a pretty darn good solution to the punishing fire problem. Sucks about the manabase, but you work with what you got, right? Oh, and against Team America, two early wastes win the game. The deck runs 16 colored sources of mana, none basic... hit one blue source early and it usually takes them a while to recover. Against punishing fire, thrun might be a decent sideboard option. If you want, we could get on MWS sometime and test out some board plans.

[Jabari]

I wish I could, but I own an older Mac so I can't support MWS. I can't even support an emulator without paying for an upgrade. I've been wanting to test with MWS for a long time though, as a result I officially hate Macs.

[perm]

Alright, I am going -4 Mother of Runes and +4 Noble Hierarch. I have ran into too much combo, and hierarch just brings more utility to my deck for now. It's a complete choice to run either one.

[Jabari]

perm i understand you want a good aggro matchup, but mom is definitely better than Wall of Omens

Mom stalls early game then pushes through extra damage late game by making creatures unblockable. Cut Walls and keep Moms ....

[perm]

Without walls (and then without skyfishers due to the low density of CITP) this deck becomes a shitty X and taxes. THere is a threshold that once you cut necessary cards, you just have to switch over to something established like taxes to be playable. The mana curve is pretty optimized right now. Ive tested with 4 hierarch 4 moms, and it just play as well with the same flow. I am going to test more when i get MWS up on this computer, and ill try more stuff

[perm]

I want 2-1 vs CB-top. Vedalken shackes are a big problem for me, as mangara is my plan to get out of their lock. I eventually got locked out one game and CB topped, but the other games it was a long boring swingfest until he was at 0. These games were somewhat tough

I played New Horizons, and the matchup is a joke. First game I mangara locked him down to 1 land after swordings his goyf and kotr, as I vialed an ewit to retrieve the stp. Second game he layed down 3 factories, and swung at me till I got wall of omens down to block, then flickerwisped it to draw into STPs and got rid of his lands. It was long because he layed down fatties that I STP-recurred. no mangara this game and just a late vial, both e wits exiled, but he just runs out of steam and is overwhelmed by my CA. I can't imagine ever losing this matchup

[pcccp]

I played something similar for casual some years ago. Magus of the Disk is a slow but nice addition. You can Ghostway in response to his trigger and have constant board sweeping.

[perm]

I played something similar for casual some years ago. Magus of the Disk is a slow but nice addition. You can Ghostway in response to his trigger and have constant board sweeping.

That does seem pretty nice, but i'd rather WoG, especially since I lose precious vials and equips, and it is slow as hell in a mana hungry deck.

Anyways, playtesting has proven kitchen finks are never that desirable of a card, especially with the crowded 3cc. So I have replaced it with the infamous Qasali Pridemage. He is great in 90% of MUs

In somewhat similar news, I destroyed a white stax deck pretty quickly. first game just smashing through with exalted, second game locking down with mangara recursion. It's just one MU example, but I saw now problems. He even had a chalice for one first turn, when I had 2 hierarchs, vial and a STP, and I got through it without much trouble. Gonna try to play more with it

[perm]

This is from NPH, and I am almost certainly going to play 3.

Mental Misstep
Instant (Ph/U)
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.

The question is, what to cut for it? I am thinking -1 SFM -1 Horizon Canopy -1 Wall of Blossoms.

Also, is this thread ready for the Established forum yet?

[Jabari]

What does countering a 1 CMC spell matter for this deck? There is all this talk of how it helps against control but I really don't see it being any better than MD Teeg or even Canonist. Against Fish, Zoo, or Goblins your list already MD's walls that stop them so countering their 1 drop doesn't matter. I don't see how it adds to this deck at all.

Also before this deck can be moved to the Established Forum it has to post winning results at a sanctioned legacy event. Meaning a larger event with a developed metagame, not a local 8-man.

Edit: Also the new Surgical Extraction works wonder for us, we don't care much about countering their turn 1 play but we do care about removing Punishing Fire. Honestly that card is such an auto-win against us, this new card gives me some renewed confidence in this deck.

[perm]

I haven't encountered punishing fire yet, either IRL or not...

Anyway, here is the list I am running now, -1 Horizon Canopy -1 Kor Skyfisher, -1 Sword of Light and Shadow, -1 Wall of Blossoms, +4 Mental Misstep.

This card is a huge boon against combo, especially reanimator, and combo is our mortal enemy. It allows me to push the MU against merfolk to favorable. 19 Lands is just perfect, especially considering that we have free spells, hierarchs and vials.


Creatures 23
4 Wall of Omens
4 Eternal Witness
3 Flickerwisp
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Kor Skyfisher
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Mangara of Corondor

Spells 18
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Ghostway
1 Sword of Feast and famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands 19
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Plains
3 Karakas
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy