Show and Tell - Natural Order [Archive]

ivanpei

02-10-2011, 02:45 AM

This thread is to discuss this deck that T8ed at SCG Indianapolis recently:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36632

I find that this deck seems to have plenty of potential.

Here's the list:

Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Terastodon

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

Legendary Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Progenitus

Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
4 Natural Order
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Show and Tell

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island

Lands
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Vendilion Clique

Personally I feel that GSZ -> noble heirarch in this list as show and tell does not require double blue. While you've included GSZ, an eternal witness should be included as well for good measure. GSZ lets you grab tutor targets from the board like pridemage against ensnaring bridge, o-ring on emmy, moat, etc. The deck also seems like it targets a Turn 3 average show and tell/NO, but runs too many cantrips (9) which I think is a waste of tempo and a shame. The best tutor for this deck is Lim Dul's Vault as it fetches anything + pitches to force. Also black gives you the mighty thoughtseize, which is the best disruption spell next to Force of will that most importantly, does not slow the deck from reaching 3/4 mana (unlike daze).

The cuts? By splashing black, Ancient tomb has to go, random stuff like the 1 -off Jace TMS, Dazes and extra cantrips. I'm puzzled by preordain?? Ponder -> preordain as it digs 4 cards. Man this list is so raw, it needs a makeover. The list I'm starting with:

4 Birds
4 GSZ
1 Eternal Witness

4 Show and Tell
4 Natural Order
1 Terastodon
1 Proggy
4 Emmy

3 LDV
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 FOW
4 Thoughtseize

2 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty
4 Verdant
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou

Thoughts? IMO thoughseize -> Daze, and LDV -> Too many cantrips. GSZ IMO is the ultimate deal maker. It's a mana source turn 1, and then later, a regrowth for your NO/show and tell. A combo deck with GAS? Yes please. This has potential to be pretty ridiculous. Fast decks can race this though, so that might be a problem. What I like about the original list's board is that it transforms into some form of aggro with Tarmogoyfs and cliques. I would love to see this guys boarding plan. I assume he sides out the show and tells and emrakuls for good stuff post board. Here's my cracks at it:

SB:
1 Pridemage
4 Goyf
2 Clique
2 Blue elemental blast
4 Engineered Plaque
2 Ghastly demise/Smother

IMO, Llawan is slightly narrow, so I replaced her with plaques (which is also good vs other tribal). Goyfs and cliques+pridemage are plan B, though I would still stick to combo against pure control like landstill/countertop as they have bucketloads of removal and would have kept a couple of STPs in. I would cut show and tell/emmy for dudes against aggro control like merfolk/bant aggro/deadguy etc as assembling a 2 card combo is going to be tricky.

Last Edit: 10/02/2011

Mark Sun

02-10-2011, 03:22 AM

I played against the pilot at Indianapolis with Cat Zoo (no Hierarchs, no Planeswalkers, 2 GSZ in the MD). I guess I'll share a little bit of insight on what my match was like.

Game 1 was naturally a blowout because, even with a Steppe Lynx opener, I could not race against Emrakul and quickly died to it. During the sideboarding between the first and second game, my opponent appeared to be struggling between sideboard options. I wondered if he would be boarding into the man plan post-board, and what do you know, he has double Tarmogoyf on his t3. I kept in my 4 Paths and sent them into exile, and killed him with dudes. I kept a slower hand in g3, with a Knight, removal, a Pyroblast, but no GSZ or Gaddock Teeg. I could stop two of the win conditions, but sadly not the third, as I couldn't land Gaddock Teeg fast enough.

Now that I've seen his list I'm a little annoyed at how close stopping him could have actually been, since he would have had zero outs in his deck to a resolved Gaddock Teeg. However, he was a knowledgeable pilot and did an okay job of concealing what he wanted to do. It was a good way to surprise the metagame, which I'm sure was not prepared for him.

DukeDemonKn1ght

02-10-2011, 03:43 AM

Forgive my ignorance, but WTF is a GSZ?

EDIT: Ah, Green Sun's Zenith. There we go.

ivanpei

02-10-2011, 03:49 AM

The newest and baddest bad boy in legacy:

Green Sun's Zenith

@ Morbid, thanks for your input man. Gaddock doesn't stop show and tell though. The man plan really makes things confusing. Do you think this deck is actually fast enough? Can it pull off T3 show and tells into Emmy consistently? T3 show into proggy/terastodon might not get there.

Against decks with no firespout, but plays STP would you show and tell a terastodon into play and nuke your own lands for a 9/9 and 3 3/3s on an empty board? Is that an optimal play assuming you have nothing else that's relevant in hand?

Mark Sun

02-10-2011, 04:00 AM

Oh, oops, I forgot to mention I had boarded in a Karakas. That would make the explanation of having a Knight in my hand a little less confusing. I wasn't that worried about Show and Tell and it's likely that he boarded out his Terastadon against me, which is agreeably awful against Zoo.

I think the deck can be fairly fast. 8 mana bugs, 11 cantrips (way too much, if I had a Steppe Lynx in g3 he would have lost, my notes have him at 12 when he cast Natural Order, and that was turn 4 after a couple of multi-cantrip turns, I had a tiny Goyf in play), will probably do it for you. Against decks without countermagic, a t2 Show and Tell is possible, and is sometimes all you need, even against decks that may or may not be equipped to deal with you. It also does well at masquerading as any type of Bant Deck in the first few turns until it goes off. I would wager he had a hard time against Merfolk/taxing countermagic though, but it doesn't look like there was much of it this time.

I'm not sure what the relevant play would be with Terastadon, but I'm guessing it's probably similar to any decision trees that Reanimator would have to take in that case.

ivanpei

02-10-2011, 06:58 AM

I just tested my GUB list, man is it beasting. Sorry, it's 9 cantrips in the original. Mistyped there. But even 9 is too much, LDV has been rocking for me instead. So has the thoughtseizes. I cut a swamp for the 2nd dryad arbor, this deck is very dependant on that card, and drawing it hasn't been terrible. EDIT: Just played a game, After GSZ-ing out an arbod T1 and a subsequent T3 NO into proggy, the 2nd arbor was such a standout. Having a fetchland ninja-ing out the 2nd arbor to block FTW was priceless!

Black is a very light splash, so not having the swamp didn't hurt much. The blue count is a bit low though, @ 18 cards. I find it just barely enough to support force. I'm very tempted to switch terastodon to the 2nd proggy. But I lose the option to NO/LDV into terastodon. I lose my only MD out to crap like ensnaring bridge. Against aggro, when about to be swamped by folk, No-pro into proggy would have lost me the game but no-pro into terastodon, blowing up all my islands and giving me an army was amazing. I stopped the assault immediately and started going sideways with my 9/9.

This deck consistently goes T3 Show and tell/ NO. This is just about fast enough to win vs aggro, but cutting it very close if you are NO-ing into proggy T3. Show and tell T3 into emrakul gets there 95% of the time. Against control, this deck is doing surprisingly well. GSZ into witness is all star here, returning countered combo components to try again. Man is GSZ broken!

Zirath

02-10-2011, 09:14 AM

I think this deck has the potential to run more NO targets; I'm thinking along the lines of Empyrial Archangel. I'm not sure if there are any other good targets.

Chain of Vapor seems necessary in the board.

ivanpei

02-10-2011, 09:31 AM

Archangel seems only good against burn, but I don't mind rolling the dice against them anyway as burn is a small % of the field. As for chain in the board? What do you really need to bounce? You can ignore counterbalance with 3cc/4cc spells and you can play around meddling mage by going for the other combo. GSZ -> Pridemage or NO -> Terastodon deals with most things. You also play LDV. Man this deck can run so many tutors and is really hard to hate. The only issue is speed. I tested against goblins and I hate show and tell vs them, its like I give them a free matron to tutor up stingscourger for my emmy or a free SCG which allows them to alpha me. NO is really good against them though.

Zirath

02-10-2011, 12:27 PM

If you splash black, Chain is probably not worth it. If you don't, it answers pretty much everything before you NO or Tell, like Teeg.

Archangel also can slow down decks like Goblins and Fish so you can draw another target if you think NO-Prog won't seal the deal.

Looking through the list of targets, the only other good NO target is Woodfall Primus, but he competes with Terastodon.

ivanpei

02-10-2011, 07:39 PM

I like terastodon more than woodfall primus. I've tested archangel in NO-lists before and her saving grace was that she is pitchable to force. Against, goblins and fish, archangel is a fog and thats about it, they swing with 8 or more power (very common) and archangel will die, leaving you @ square one. Terastodon on the other hand, hits the table and turns all your lands into 3/3s. I've won games by being able to put 18 power on the board straight away. Its pretty busted against decks like gobs and folk which have limited removal and no sweepers/stp.

ivanpei

02-12-2011, 07:32 AM

Tested against zoo, goblins and reanimator today with my very competent testing partner. This deck is legit, it rocks zoo and goblins without problem like any combo deck should. Reanimator was a major problem though. We both run similar disruption suits but he is a turn faster than me on average and locks me out with Iona. Reanimator is probably the worse mu. I'm gonna cut the 4th emmy, zeniths and 1 arbor, 1 witness for the 4th ldv, nobles and 2 more ponders.

The black splash IMO is a must. You cannot consistently assemble show and tell without LDV. 6 show and tell targets was too much. I hate getting 2 targets in hand. 20 lands was also too much. Gsz into dryad was disappointing, dryad doesn't make blue or black so it can't cast cantrips or thoughtseize. Gsz into eternal witness was too slow. It's only good against the heaviest control. Against aggro control decks which are more common, you would be dead by then. Thoughtseize and LDV are beasting. I have no idea how the deck can consistently fight hate and go off without then.

Karhumies

02-13-2011, 06:37 AM

This thread is to discuss this deck that T8ed at SCG Indianapolis recently:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36632
...
SB:
1 Pridemage
4 Goyf
2 Clique
2 Blue elemental blast
4 Engineered Plaque
2 Ghastly demise/Smother

Depending on the meta, I would consider also the following sideboard cards:
Pithing Needle (Karakas, utility)
Null Rod (Lion's Eye Diamond, Sensei's Divining Top, utility)
Wipe Away (Counterbalance, utility, anti-hate)
Maelstrom Pulse (utility, anti-hate)
Pernicious Deed (utility, although not phenomenal in this deck)
Xantid Swarm (Counterspell, synergy with NO)
Echoing Truth (Tokens)
Infest (Goblins, possibly more useful than E.Plague when drawn in singles, utility)
Darkblast (Peacekeeper)

ivanpei

02-13-2011, 10:58 AM

Thanks, I especially like the xantid swarms. They serve as fodder to NO once they have attacked. Pretty cool synergy. Much better than extra duress/ pierces in the board. However with zenith's cut from the deck, they're not as good and will have to be in multiples in the board. Though I find that going the man plan post board isn't the best idea, this deck doesn't transform very well into anything and the hate that can be brought in is quite limited. The deck is not graveyard based, activated ability based or anything. It's mainly a spell/creature based deck that is weak to stuff like perish, ensnaring bridge, o-ring alongside counterspells and discard.

This deck is not incredibly fast, and thats a major downside. It can be raced by almost every combo deck in the format and is borderline quick enough against aggro. Reminds me of solidarity really. But it is extremely consistent and has very good game against control. I've cut LDV back down to 3 again, assembling the combo wasn't a problem, its making sure the spell resolves the first time you cast it. So I'm playing 1 copy of duress instead which is also very good against combo and control. Speed is another issue in this deck. You have to play this really tight to squeeze out wins against combo decks. I was thinking of a couple of tombs like the original deck list but being in 3 colours and losing life to LDV and thoughtseize kinda makes tombs unsatisfactory.

Nonkel

02-14-2011, 03:15 PM

What is wrong with this deck imho, is that it's betting on two horses (is this proper english, lol!).
I was toying around with this list, and suddenly it hit me. Show and Tell forces you to play a higher creature count so you have both Show and Tell and a creature in your hand. NO wants you to have a creature in your library, so it profits from a low creature count. How to solve this?

Two answers: Worldly Tutor and Personal Tutor. Its so simple I can't believe this wasn't thought of earlier.
Worldly tutor fetches Show and Tell targets, so you can keep creature count low. It doubles as a fetch for NO sac targets, like Dryad Arbor and Noble hierarch.
Show and Tell and NO are both sorceries, so Personal Tutor is insane when it comes down to consistently going off.
Also, ALL fetches are able to get Dryad Arbor so no need to run a high count on sac creatures. Lose the bobs, dont need them.

Here is the list I came up with. It still needs some finetuning but I did some goldfishing and it looks very promising I must say:

Natural Show

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Terastodon
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus

4 Show and Tell
3 Natural Order

4 Personal Tutor
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Force of Wil
3 Daze

4 Lotus Petal
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills

Any suggestions more than welcome!

kinda

02-14-2011, 06:51 PM

ivanpei

02-14-2011, 07:44 PM

Thanks for the links, they make for good reading! Yeah, apparently its been done before. I've kinda stopped trying to tune the deck. No matter what you do, it's still too slow. This deck is inferior in every way to Necrotic Ooze combo (with board to show and tell), which is much quicker and equally resilient.

kinda

02-14-2011, 08:01 PM

Yeah I agree that natural order unfortunately is too slow. I haven't tested the ooze deck (haven't played legacy since mid last semester) but it does looks solid, especially since it can transform into personal tutor+snt.dec which I felt was the strongest deck for a while. Just glancing over the lists the 6 creatures in the sb worries me...I found that I always wanted at least 8 even with 4-8 cantrips and ldv's.

Nonkel

02-15-2011, 03:16 AM

It was tested before, look here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18180-NOSnT-Big-Labor&p=471529&highlight=#post471529. It's a lot of card disadvantage and personal tutor+worldly tutor hands are unkeepable.

Edit: Nvm it's in this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18306-URg-APO-Show-and-Tell/page2 .

I scanned both threads but nothing very relevant there. I think you are missing the point. All decklist I come across in those threads run boatloads of creatures, I only play 3. This frees up around 5 slots on average!
Also, I never saw both worldly tutor and personal tutor included in one list. And finally, this list is UG so much less open to mana disruption.

I dont think NO is too slow. With some luck it can be played turn 2, more easily turn 3. SnT turn 1 possible, easily turn 2.
Ill playtest my list with a few friends of mine (goblins, merfolk, junk etc) and see how it plays out.

ivanpei

02-28-2011, 03:57 AM

Jigga_Tech

02-28-2011, 07:48 PM

BUMP,

This deck T16ed another Starcitygames open:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36849

I think this deck is legit, and my tech suggestion of GSZ got picked up apparently, though I subsequently cut GSZ. Still seems a smidgen too slow. I think he met alot of blue on the way to the Top 16. This deck is very strong vs blue.

This deck looks like a blast to play. I'm just getting the last few cards for it so I can start testing it. Looks like I may need some GSZ though. What's up with the 1 fauna shaman? What do you go get with that?

ivanpei

02-28-2011, 07:51 PM

If you have Show and Tell in Hand but no Progenitus, You can GSZ in to Fauna, Next turn pitch a bird/noble to fauna for Emrakul, then Show and Tell it into play. It is absolutely the balls slow though. I recommend you splash black for Thoughtseize and Lim Dul's Vault instead. Cheers!

luudes

03-02-2011, 02:58 PM

So I tested this a little and like the concept and how the deck has evolved with GSZ. I am interested in trying out lotus cobra but think it could be too slow as T1 mana dork and T2 ancient tomb is enough to cast NO or S&T. Another idea I have is to try concordant crossroads. T1 mana dork, T2 show and tell emmy and crossroads to wipe the board. Yeah there dudes get haste too but is that any different than S&T and then passing the turn with huge dude on table. Seems like a good way to limit the number of cards the opponent sees before having to scoop to fatty beats... but then again it might be superfluous, comments?

Elbeano

03-02-2011, 03:57 PM

ivanpei

03-02-2011, 09:53 PM

I quite like GSZ, it gives the deck added consistency and stability. However, it's slow as hell without black. No LDV= Hard to set up combo. I mean, Personal Tutor-> GSZ-> Fierce Empath-> Emrakul is very slow. That said, Fierce Empath is much better than Fauna Shaman because Fauna can get plowed. Welcome to the Source Elbeano!

Actually I like Luudes suggestion of a haste giver. However I'd prefer a green creature based one that can be tutored for with GSZ. If you play the slower, UG version, you are going to need the speed. Cheers, glad to see this thread alive again!

Here's what I'd play:

4 Bop
4 Noble

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Seize
1 Duress
4 Force
3 LDV

4 NO
4 Show and Tell
3 Emmy
1 Terastodon
1 Proggy

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty
4 Verdant
4 Tropical
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Undergound Sea

Give the black splash a try, I promise you won't be disappointed!

SB plans:

3 Spell Pierce- Control/combo
2 Xantid Swarm- Such a beating vs control + Sacks to NO, would play more if I didn't need the space for Spell Pierce as Combo is a bad MU.
3 Propaganda- Stops aggro cold
2 Chain of vapor- For annoying things like Gaddock Teeq, Bridge etc.
2 Krosan Grip- Counterbalance, etc etc
3 Extirpate- This deck is too slow against dredge/reanimator. Some Hate is in order + remarkably good against storm combo. Personal tutor/LDV/Doomsday? Oops, sorry! Ill gotten gains? Bye bye LED. Post Ad Nauseum extirpate Ritual/Infernal? Oops!

Boarding plans:
Merfolk (deserves a special mention because of the combination mana denial, counterspells, a quick clock)- In 2 Swarms, 3 Spell Pierce, 3 Propaganda, out 4 NO, 1 Progenitus, 3 Nobles. Fact: You are not getting there with NO-> Progenitus. Way too slow, you get swamped before you can kill them. NO plan also sucks because it's hard to cast a 4cc spell when fighting Spell Pierce, Daze and Wasteland.
No CBalance Blue- In 2 Swarms, 3 Spell Pierce, out 1 NO, 4 Nobles
Balance Blue- In 2 Swarms, 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Grips, out 4 Nobles, 1 NO, 1 Emmy, 1 LDV. (You want to try and minimize your chances of drawing dead cards as every card counts. Double LDV, NO and Emmy all do nothing)

Aggro- In 3 Propaganda, 2 Chain, out 4 Seize, 1 Duress. (You may or may not see Teeq. If you see it, you have 3 LDV, 4 Force and 2 Chain as outs to it, or just win with Show and Tell)

Combo- In 3 Spell Pierce, 3 Extirpate, out 1 NO, 1 Proggy, 4 Noble. (Don't want double NO and Proggy takes 2 turns to kill- far too slow, Terastodon nuking 3 lands is very strong against Combo)

Jigga_Tech

03-03-2011, 05:23 AM

AJ Sacher and Drew Levin ran fairly close to the same 75 in DC; Both decklists were featured in a Decktech article, a link to which I can't seem to find at the moment. The big thing that article did highlight was the key differences

Levin's list had
-1 Fauna Shaman
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
+1 Fierce Empath
+1 Personal Tutor
1/2 Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors split IIRC
along with some minor mana base tweaks

Which i like better, on paper at least. I've yet to sleeve this up to playtest.

Edit: First post here too apparently. I need to lurk less

I think I may actually like a cross between the two lists. I like the ancient tombs of AJ's list and the Fierce Empath of Levin's. I don't care for city of traders since it goes away after playing another land, not to mention those have gotten really expensive lately $$$. The 2 damage from ancient tomb usually doesn't matter too much. Fauna shaman just seems super slow. Not only do you have to let it live a turn for it to do anything but you need a creature to discard to it and these lists aren't running that many creatures to pitch. I guess AJ had a point it can go get Llawan post board, but yet it is still slow and you need to pitch something to it.

I am also curious as to their sideboarding plan. Anybody have any ideas as to what you bring in the "man plan" for and what you take out?

luudes

03-03-2011, 11:03 PM

if you want a creature tutor like empath why not wordly tutor? sure into hand but w. tutor is better

Nonkel

03-04-2011, 04:03 AM

I dont want to shamelessly promote my own thread, but there is my most current decklist integrating some stuff, like Fierce Empath, Worldly and Personal Tutor and the likes.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20064-NO-Show

Would love some feedback on the decklist posted there!

Jigga_Tech

03-04-2011, 04:58 AM

if you want a creature tutor like empath why not wordly tutor? sure into hand but w. tutor is better

Fierce Empath works better with the new Green Sun's Zenith technology that some of the new versions of this deck are using. It lets you up the Empath in play giving you a green creature for Natural Order and tutoring up a fatty for Show and Tell.

Nonkel

03-04-2011, 05:03 AM

Fierce Empath works better with the new Green Sun's Zenith technology that some of the new versions of this deck are using. It lets you up the Empath in play giving you a green creature for Natural Order and tutoring up a fatty for Show and Tell.

Total mana cost would be 4. For what it does its a bit too steep. Even the 3 the Empath costs is only playable in my opinion if you are packing Ancient Tombs / City of traitors. As for me, I dont think GSZ will be competitive in Legacy, at least not in this deck.

Final Fortune

03-04-2011, 05:35 AM

Total mana cost would be 4. For what it does its a bit too steep. Even the 3 the Empath costs is only playable in my opinion if you are packing Ancient Tombs / City of traitors. As for me, I dont think GSZ will be competitive in Legacy, at least not in this deck.

GSZ seems perfectly fine, just GSZ -> Dryad Arobr and GSZ -> Xantid Swarm is enough utility, an accelerator that doubles as an additional 2 drop protection slot helps a lot vs. New Horizons because their Daze/Spell Pierce is such a bitch to get thru' - the rest of the targets are just danger of cool things. I think this is exactly the kind of deck that "breaks" GSZ and probably the reason to play it over Sneak/Show.

Nonkel

03-04-2011, 12:48 PM

GSZ seems perfectly fine, just GSZ -> Dryad Arobr and GSZ -> Xantid Swarm is enough utility, an accelerator that doubles as an additional 2 drop protection slot helps a lot vs. New Horizons because their Daze/Spell Pierce is such a bitch to get thru' - the rest of the targets are just danger of cool things. I think this is exactly the kind of deck that "breaks" GSZ and probably the reason to play it over Sneak/Show.

The difference between having Xantid Swarm in your opening hand and casting it for 1 mana or casting it via GSZ and paying 2 is a HUGE difference in the case of this card. Its obviously meant to beat counterheavy decks game 2. If you wait 1 turn, you give them daze and other means to search for a FoW (brainstorm etc) which could mean the difference between winning and loosing. The only viable play is indeed putting a Dryad Arbor into play. Whooptiedoo for that...

Final Fortune

03-04-2011, 03:46 PM

The difference between having Xantid Swarm in your opening hand and casting it for 1 mana or casting it via GSZ and paying 2 is a HUGE difference in the case of this card. Its obviously meant to beat counterheavy decks game 2. If you wait 1 turn, you give them daze and other means to search for a FoW (brainstorm etc) which could mean the difference between winning and loosing. The only viable play is indeed putting a Dryad Arbor into play. Whooptiedoo for that...

1G for Xantid Swarm is better than spending U or UB searching for Force of Will or Duress, and frankly, if they're going to Force of Will, Daze or Spell Pierce my GSZ because of the possibility of Xantid Swarm that's completely fucking awesome - 1G for + 1 card advantage or tempo is a trade I'll make all damn day.

I mean honestly, you're already SBing in Xantid Swarm, so why wouldn't you want a card that doubles the number of Xantid Swarms in your deck? It's extremely viable.

COBBLER

03-04-2011, 04:33 PM

yea i agree if any deck wants green sun in legacy its this deck. plus it lets u run less swarms and still have plenty because of the zenith...

ivanpei

03-08-2011, 06:22 PM

This deck did well again at the latest scg! This deck is legit. Btw I'm wondering why none of the lists are splashing black. Is it for mana stability? Or do people just not have the seas? Can someone who has tested both but preferred the UG version enlighten me on the reason? IMO in my testing, thoughtsieze and LDV were the best cards in the deck.

COBBLER

03-08-2011, 06:31 PM

I Havnt tried the black but i have played the deck a bit, and i think there is realy no reason to fuck up the mana base, yea thoughtsieze is realy realy good but just making it so wasteland decks have a better chance at beating you is not realy worth it also ancient tomb for me has lead to crazy nut draws so losing out on that is big too also ldv seems a little to slow you realy just dont need it and should just play more preordain/ponder effects

ivanpei

03-08-2011, 07:53 PM

I think you should try the black splash before making the conclusions. As for the stable manabase argument, The GSZ builds will fetch out a wasteable arbor. Also, often, you will go T1, Trop -> GSZ because forest-> GSZ into double green has been crappy for me. You can't cantrip with Green mana, and that was the main reason why I dropped GSZ. I love that card to bits, but I feel that playing the simple old Birds of Paradise is better. 10+ Cantrips is too much IMO. If you've played enough with the deck, you will realise it suffers from cantrip into cantrip problem. You cannot consistently cast Show and Tell into emmy without LDV.

Spell pierce and Daze are not good protection spells for forcing the combo through. For example, you need 5 mana to Force a NO through with spell pierce, slowing your combo down. Daze on the combo turn is sometimes also useless as its already turns 3-4 and they most likely will have the mana to pay for it. Daze in the early turns slows opponents down but also slows yourself down. This deck is slow and mana hungry as it is, and Daze is not a good idea. Thoughtseize is by a long mile the best protection spell for this deck IMO.

COBBLER

03-09-2011, 08:14 PM

ivanpei

03-09-2011, 08:27 PM

Yes I have tested against wasteland, and that's why I play BOP, it's unwasteable. I don't really mind getting flooded with mana dudes. Chump blocking is an important part of getting there. There are plenty of games where I won a race with Progenitus by having the extra mana dudes to chump. Any way I'll agree to disagree. I really like black for Thoughtseize and LDV. I tried the UG versions and I cannot consistently assemble Show and Tell - Correct Monster. Notice I bolded "Correct Monster". What if you are looking for Terastodon against Karakas/Jace but you only play 1? Your cantrips are not going to be able to find you that 1-off consistently.

LDV is not slow, you get what you need, when you need it. If you don't play birds and you play GSZ, yes it's harder to cast. That's why I believe BOP + black splash is awesome. I don't have to looks for wasteable sources since I can T1 Forest > BOP, T2 Island LDV, T3 NO/Show and Tell.

Nonkel

03-10-2011, 01:43 AM

Gsz helps you not get flooded with birds though witch is nice, and also i mean realy have you tested agaisnt wasteland decks because where iam playing most peaple have them and getting all your lands wasted is a bitch to deal with and ldv just doesn't seem worth it at all in this deck its just too slow and unnesisary.

GSZ into birds also doubles the CC of the birds. You just can't do stuff like that in Legacy and still be competetive.

Yes I have tested against wasteland, and that's why I play BOP, it's unwasteable. I don't really mind getting flooded with mana dudes. Chump blocking is an important part of getting there. There are plenty of games where I won a race with Progenitus by having the extra mana dudes to chump. Any way I'll agree to disagree. I really like black for Thoughtseize and LDV. I tried the UG versions and I cannot consistently assemble Show and Tell - Correct Monster. Notice I bolded "Correct Monster". What if you are looking for Terastodon against Karakas/Jace but you only play 1? Your cantrips are not going to be able to find you that 1-off consistently.

Thats why I play a list with only 3 monsters and 3 Worldly Tutors. This works really nice in finding it, or in finding a mana dude in times of trouble... Needless to say, it frees up a lot of slots in the deck.

ivanpei

03-10-2011, 03:14 AM

A friend plays 1-2 Wordly tutor because he doesn't run LDV. I think running LDV directly makes more sense though. Sometimes you have Show, you want to look for Emmy/Don. Sometimes you have the monster but want to look for Show. LDV is the only tutor that looks for both. Worldly is ok if you don't want to splash black for whatever reason. But I won't run too many due to card disadvantage.

Another option is Intuition, but that does not find 1-offs. It is also slower, but is not card disadvantage. What do you think?

Nonkel

03-10-2011, 05:14 AM

I play Personal Tutor next to Worldly Tutor so Im also able to find Show and Tell / NO if needed. This keeps the deck U/G and mana base stable. Intuition imo is to slow since it costs 3. But it all depends, me running a higher tutor count makes the deck more vulnerable to hand disruption. Thats why brainstorm is so important, you can hide essential stuff on top. Worldly Tutor is an instant, so you can fire it off at the end of opponents turn so they cant disrupt your hand when youve got the creature in your hand. Ive also got 2 Disrupt in my SB because its nice to have people thoughtseize themselves, and my version is more vulnerable to hand disruption.

Id love to play Thoughtseize since it think its one of the strongest cards in the format today, but adding black is putting to much strain on the mana base. Id rather have more lands that produce 2 mana, currently running 4 Ancient Tomb and 1 City of Traitors.

Also, running LDV doesnt allow you to cut creatures from your deck in such a drastic way Worldly Tutor does.

COBBLER

03-11-2011, 04:20 PM

Yea i think the 2 mana lands are A great inclusion, also disrupt sounds like a good card

Final Fortune

03-11-2011, 10:26 PM

Also, running LDV doesnt allow you to cut creatures from your deck in such a drastic way Worldly Tutor does.

I think the tempo you're losing by cutting those creatures is more important, having to tutor for Emakrul is usually the difference between winning and losing vs. Zoo and Goblins.

Nonkel

03-12-2011, 03:11 AM

I think the tempo you're losing by cutting those creatures is more important, having to tutor for Emakrul is usually the difference between winning and losing vs. Zoo and Goblins.

Ive tested the deck again last night, I find this not the case. Lots of games I go turn 1 Tutor (for Emrakul or SnT if creature is in hand), turn 2 Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors Snt Emmy. Turn 2 Emrakuls are pretty common. Even pulls a turn 1 occasionally, but then you need a perfect hand with lotus petal, 2 producing land Snt and a creature. Not very common, but it happens.
And for the Zoo and Goblins matchup I was considering novablast wurm sideboard. Obviously better against Goblins then Zoo because StP.

roioned

03-12-2011, 07:11 AM

But you won´t always have Wordly Tutor in you opening hand and when you need a creature and you draw W.Tutor over creature your opponent with goblins/zoo/whatever aggro just gains timewalk.The second thing is that i really like 2 Progenitus, because you can remove one to FoW and still have one ready for NO and this makes Fauna Shaman/Fierce Empath even better.

Nonkel

03-12-2011, 07:41 AM

Its funny that you mention tempo as an argument and bring up Fauna Shaman. That card is just way to slow.
Dont forget, if there is no creature in hand and no tutor to find it, I always find myself moving to the NO option. There are 4 NO and 4 Personal tutors in my deck so Ill find it one way or the other. Maybe you should try it out before judging, my current decklist is at http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20064-NO-Show

COBBLER

03-12-2011, 04:14 PM

Yea i agree Fauna shamen is way to slow, but what do you guys think is the best plan agaisnt discard because discard seems

way harder to get though then counters, is divert the best card for it or is somthing like misdirection a better way to go?

Nonkel

03-12-2011, 07:41 PM

I have 2 Divert SB and maybe will make room for 1 more, because discard hurts so bad. Misdirection costs an additional card, Im not to fond of it in a limited rol of redirecting discard. If it would double as a protection for creatures that would be a different story, but creatures in the deck are non targetable as it is.

owenzzz

01-09-2013, 04:17 PM

No BUG Show:
3-4 Emrakul
2 Griselbrand
1-Progenitus
1 Terrastrodon
3-4 Deathrite Shaman
1-2 Birds of Paradise
1 Quasali Pridemage

Creature count = 13

Business Spell
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Show and Tell
4 Natural Order
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Ponder
3 Lim-duls Vault
1 Jace?

Total Business Spell: 27

Lands:
2-3 Ancient Tomb
2 Dryad Arbor
9 Fetch
3 Trops
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou

Total Lands= 20

The deck needs to fine-tune but I guess having Deathrite and Abrupt Decay will be a very decision to move to BUG version. Having Deathrite as the swiss knife of the deck will help have a good Gyard base matchup.SB option will be:

Aggro Route SB:
3 Tarmo
1 Ooze
2 Vendilion
2 Jace
2-3 Flusterstorm
3 Submer
2 Pithing Needle

I really don’t know if having an aggro route will be a good choice or stick to protecting the combo.
Props to Ivanpei on raising the following thread and hopefully make this active again. Hope we can play again in the future.
Owen

rxavage

01-09-2013, 04:56 PM