Announcing spells, paying costs, and priority

[lordofthepit]

I've always floated mana into my mana pool before playing a spell. Apparently, I only recently learned that this isn't necessary.

If I understand correctly, if you have priority, you can announce a spell and then pay its cost with any mana abilities (provided they don't have weird restrictions like Lion's Eye Diamond). Would "interrupts/mana sources" like Dark Ritual work in this manner, or do you have to float mana by casting Dark Ritual beforehand in order to play something using the BBB you would get from resolving Ritual? (My guess is not, because apparently instants like Dark Ritual can be countered since Sixth Edition.)

Also, if I announce a spell (say, Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor) and I pay for it with City of Brass after announcing, a triggered ability from City of Brass goes on the stack, and at this point, the active player then the non-active player has priority to play any spells they may add. During this step, is the card for the announced spell on the stack, or is it still in hand?

I ask this because I was playing against Storm once with Zoo, and my opponent laid down a Lion's Eye Diamond and tapped City of Brass to float mana for casting a tutor effect. At this point, I destroyed his LED with a Qasali Pridemage, and he couldn't respond by cracking LED or he would lose his entire hand (including the tutor). But am I correct in understanding that if he had instead announced the tutor spell, then paid costs (including with the City of Brass), his spell would already be on the stack when the ping from City of Brass goes on the stack, so that when I respond with Qasali Pridemage, he could sacrifice his LED for mana and still tutor up his card when the stack resolved?

[Tinefol]

I've always floated mana into my mana pool before playing a spell. Apparently, I only recently learned that this isn't necessary.

If I understand correctly, if you have priority, you can announce a spell and then pay its cost with any mana abilities (provided they don't have weird restrictions like Lion's Eye Diamond).

correct


Would "interrupts/mana sources" like Dark Ritual work in this manner, or do you have to float mana by casting Dark Ritual beforehand in order to play something using the BBB you would get from resolving Ritual? (My guess is not, because apparently instants like Dark Ritual can be countered since Sixth Edition.)

There are no interrupts and mana source spells anymore, just instants. Therefore, you need to resolve Dark Ritual to get mana off it.



Also, if I announce a spell (say, Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor) and I pay for it with City of Brass after announcing, a triggered ability from City of Brass goes on the stack, and at this point, the active player then the non-active player has priority to play any spells they may add. During this step, is the card for the announced spell on the stack, or is it still in hand?

The triggered ability of City of Brass would only go on the stack when you are to recieve priority. In order to do so, you have to finish playing your spell (and thus, putting it in stack). So your Wish is put on stack, then triggered ability is put on stack, on top of it, and then you get the priority.



I ask this because I was playing against Storm once with Zoo, and my opponent laid down a Lion's Eye Diamond and tapped City of Brass to float mana for casting a tutor effect. At this point, I destroyed his LED with a Qasali Pridemage, and he couldn't respond by cracking LED or he would lose his entire hand (including the tutor). But am I correct in understanding that if he had instead announced the tutor spell, then paid costs (including with the City of Brass), his spell would already be on the stack when the ping from City of Brass goes on the stack, so that when I respond with Qasali Pridemage, he could sacrifice his LED for mana and still tutor up his card when the stack resolved?

Basically correct. He could've sacrificed LED anyway, after the trigger of City is put on stack though, since he'd have the priority

[cdr]

Basically correct. He could've sacrificed LED anyway, after the trigger of City is put on stack though, since he'd have the priority

To have priority, the opponent would have to specifically say that he's keeping priority while casting the Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish/whatever - otherwise he automatically passes.

If it weren't for the City trigger, lordofthepit could just pass, giving the opponent no opportunity to activate LED before the tutor resolves. If lordofthepit does something, though - like activate Pridemage - then the opponent gets priority again and can activate LED.

In this case, if the opponent doesn't retain priority and lordofthepit passes, the top item of the stack will resolve, but that item is the City trigger - so the opponent will have priority and a chance to activate LED after the City trigger resolves.

[Misplayer]

I ask this because I was playing against Storm once with Zoo, and my opponent laid down a Lion's Eye Diamond and tapped City of Brass to float mana for casting a tutor effect. At this point, I destroyed his LED with a Qasali Pridemage, and he couldn't respond by cracking LED or he would lose his entire hand (including the tutor). But am I correct in understanding that if he had instead announced the tutor spell, then paid costs (including with the City of Brass), his spell would already be on the stack when the ping from City of Brass goes on the stack, so that when I respond with Qasali Pridemage, he could sacrifice his LED for mana and still tutor up his card when the stack resolved?

After reading this example a few times, I still would like to make sure I understand what happened for my personal clarity.

My interpretation is:

Opponent: "Float R/B/Whatever mana with City of Brass"
lordofthepit: "In response to City's damage trigger, sacrifice Pridemage targeting LED." (<- Nice play by the way)
Opponent: "Aw shucks."

Whereas if the opponent announced "Infernal Tutor" or what-have-you and then went to pay with City, lordofthepit responding to the City trigger would have no real bearing on the opponent because then he could still sacrifice LED in response to the Pridemage ability and resolve the Tutor with no issue.

Is my understanding accurate?

Related question: The opponent can announce "Infernal Tutor", pay with City of Brass, pass priority with the City trigger on the stack, then still have the option (i.e. receive priority) to crack the LED with the Tutor on the stack after the city trigger resolves, correct?

[cdr]

After reading this example a few times, I still would like to make sure I understand what happened for my personal clarity.

My interpretation is:

Opponent: "Float R/B/Whatever mana with City of Brass"
lordofthepit: "In response to City's damage trigger, sacrifice Pridemage targeting LED." (<- Nice play by the way)
Opponent: "Aw shucks."

Whereas if the opponent announced "Infernal Tutor" or what-have-you and then went to pay with City, lordofthepit responding to the City trigger would have no real bearing on the opponent because then he could still sacrifice LED in response to the Pridemage ability and resolve the Tutor with no issue.

Is my understanding accurate?

Correct.


Related question: The opponent can announce "Infernal Tutor", pay with City of Brass, pass priority with the City trigger on the stack, then still have the option (i.e. receive priority) to crack the LED with the Tutor on the stack after the city trigger resolves, correct?

That's correct, other than that as above the opponent automatically passes unless he says otherwise. I edited my post above to take into account the City trigger.

[Uncoordinated]

Just a quick clarification: It is my understanding that a mana ability doesn't go on the stack, but resolves immediately when activated/triggered. Is this correct, and is the rest of this thread just a question stemming from the shortcut for retaining/passing priority?

Also, does it matter whether a mana ability has additional costs for activation ( other than tapping )? I am pretty sure you can activate something like City of Brass, Ancient Tomb, LED, Petal, etc. whenever you could normally activate a mana ability.

In other words, am I reading the rulebook correctly? If I am, then you can't respond to mana abilities, even if one was just floating mana, since upon resolution of an ability the player who previously had priority gains it back. The player floating mana would have to be pretty silly to pass priority after floating mana with nothing else on the stack, since I would just pass as well and move to the next step/phase. If there was something else on the stack, then none of these questions matter since both players would get priority at some point before resolution of whatever was on the stack. It would be pretty easy to back up the gamestate after a miscommunication like forgetting to retain priority after floating, would it not?

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I think these questions are related.

[cdr]

Just a quick clarification: It is my understanding that a mana ability doesn't go on the stack, but resolves immediately when activated/triggered. Is this correct, and is the rest of this thread just a question stemming from the shortcut for retaining/passing priority?

I'm not sure what you mean. City of Brass has a triggered ability that's not part of its mana ability. LED has a mana ability, but it has a timing restriction ("Activate this ability only when you could play an instant").


Also, does it matter whether a mana ability has additional costs for activation ( other than tapping )? I am pretty sure you can activate something like City of Brass, Ancient Tomb, LED, Petal, etc. whenever you could normally activate a mana ability.

You can activate mana abilities whenever you have priority or whenever you can make a mana payment, eg in the middle of casting, activating, or resolving something. Again, LED's ability has a timing restriction, so you can't activate it when making a payment like you can with a normal mana ability.


In other words, am I reading the rulebook correctly? If I am, then you can't respond to mana abilities, even if one was just floating mana, since upon resolution of an ability the player who previously had priority gains it back. The player floating mana would have to be pretty silly to pass priority after floating mana with nothing else on the stack, since I would just pass as well and move to the next step/phase. If there was something else on the stack, then none of these questions matter since both players would get priority at some point before resolution of whatever was on the stack. It would be pretty easy to back up the gamestate after a miscommunication like forgetting to retain priority after floating, would it not?

You're not reading the thread correctly, I think.

[lordofthepit]

Thanks to everyone for responding.


After reading this example a few times, I still would like to make sure I understand what happened for my personal clarity.

My interpretation is:

Opponent: "Float R/B/Whatever mana with City of Brass"
lordofthepit: "In response to City's damage trigger, sacrifice Pridemage targeting LED." (<- Nice play by the way)
Opponent: "Aw shucks."

Whereas if the opponent announced "Infernal Tutor" or what-have-you and then went to pay with City, lordofthepit responding to the City trigger would have no real bearing on the opponent because then he could still sacrifice LED in response to the Pridemage ability and resolve the Tutor with no issue.

Is my understanding accurate?

That is correct, thanks for clarifying.

[GGoober]

Opponent: "Float R/B/Whatever mana with City of Brass"
lordofthepit: "In response to City's damage trigger, sacrifice Pridemage targeting LED." (<- Nice play by the way)
Opponent: "Aw shucks."

This is very insightful!

[lordofthepit]

Sorry for the bump, but I had more questions about how this worked.

My understanding is that when you announce a spell, it is put on the stack (and then you pay mana costs, and if you're unable to do so, you back up). Is this correct?

If so, imagine Scenario #1. I'm at 1 life, my opponent is at 3. I have a Lightning Bolt in hand, and City of Brass is my only source of red.
a) I announce Lightning Bolt, then pay for it with red from City. Bolt is put on the stack, with the ping on top of it. The ping resolves first, I go down to 0, and I lose the game as a state-based effect with the Bolt still on the stack.
b) I float for red with City, the ping gets put on the stack. I then announce Bolt and pay for it with the floating mana. My opponent goes down to 0, and I win the game with the last damage still on the stack.
If I am correct, it seems this is one of few examples where it would be advantageous to tap for mana before announcing spells.

How about Scenario #2? I'm at 4 life, my opponent is at three. He casts Chain Lightning on me, and City of Brass and Mountain are my sources of red. (Before we discuss this scenario, I am under the impression that the "chain" is not a triggered ability, but rather, part of the resolution of the spell.)

In this situation, is there any way for me to win off the Chain Lightning?

Opp: Chain Lightning, targeting you. Pass priority.
Me: Pass priority
(Chain Lightning resolves, I take 3, going to 1, and have the option of paying RR to make another copy.)
Me: Pay RR, tapping City of Brass and Mountain.

My understanding is that Chain Lightning is being resolved, and my option to chain it back is part of the resolution of the spell. When I pay the optional RR, I now have two effects (Chain, City of Brass ping) that I can stack however I want. In order to win, I stack the ping first, and the chain below that. Are the following statements correct? Please let me know if I am incorrect or imprecise in any of the following statements below:
- Chain Lightning "option" is not a trigger, therefore cannot be Stifled.
- Chain Lightning copy and City of Brass ping are "simultaneous", and thus can be stacked in two different orders.
- It is the "controller" of the effect/permanent that created the effect that determines how these effects are stacked, rather than the active player.
- I control the Chain Lightning copy and the ping trigger from City of Brass comes from a permanent that I control, therefore I can stack it as described above to win the game.

A different question, but somewhat related--once you announce a spell, are you required to pay its costs if you can legally do so with the mana you are able to produce with the permanents you have available (i.e., lands, creatures with mana abilities, artifacts with mana abilities; but not Lion's Eye Diamond because of its timing restriction; not Spirit Guides because they are in your hand, a concealed zone; and not Ritual effects, for both timing reasons and because they are in your hand)?

So imagine scenario #3. I am at 3 life. My only untapped mana sources are two Ancient Tombs. There is a Trinisphere in play and I want to play Chalice of the Void with X=1.

Case A: I announce Chalice of the Void for X=1, because I forgot about Trinisphere. I can legally tap Ancient Tomb because paying life is not part of its cost. Do I have to do so if my opponent immediately points out the Trinisphere effect?
Case B: I tap Ancient Tomb for 2 mana. Tomb trigger resolves, and I go down to 1. I then announce CotV with X=1. Does the situation in case A change?
Case C: Both of us forget about Trinisphere, and we only recognize this after the main phase/turn is over. What happens in this case?

Finally, imagine scenario #4. I am at 3 life, as before, except this time my untapped mana sources are one Ancient Tomb and two Horizon Canopy. Imagine also that instead of Trinisphere, there are two Sphere of Resistance effects.

Case A: I announce Chalice of the Void for X=1, and my opponent immediately points out the Sphere effect, so I have to pay 4 mana. I can legally pay up to 3 life for any costs. Am I obligated to tap the Ancient Tomb, both Horizon Canopies, and to pay 2 life in order to pay for Chalice? (In this case, I would go down to 1, with the Tomb trigger killing me after Chalice is resolved.)
Case B: I tap Ancient Tomb for 2 mana; trigger resolves and puts me at 1. I then announce CotV at 1. My opponent points out the Sphere effect. I can pay up to 1 life for any costs at this point, but I cannot actually generate 2 more mana to pay for CotV. Do I have to generate as much mana as I can with any mana abilities I have on board? (My understanding is I am not.)
If so, I would need to tap for a third mana with one Canopy, which would kill me. Otherwise, I am unable to generate 4 mana to pay for the announce Chalice, so the play is illegal and returned to my hand. I have already tapped the Tomb for 2 mana, however, so I am still at 1 life, and can elect to use those two mana for another play if I choose to do so. My Canopies remain untapped.

[DerFern]

Sorry for the bump, but I had more questions about how this worked.

My understanding is that when you announce a spell, it is put on the stack (and then you pay mana costs, and if you're unable to do so, you back up). Is this correct?

If so, imagine Scenario #1. I'm at 1 life, my opponent is at 3. I have a Lightning Bolt in hand, and City of Brass is my only source of red.
a) I announce Lightning Bolt, then pay for it with red from City. Bolt is put on the stack, with the ping on top of it. The ping resolves first, I go down to 0, and I lose the game as a state-based effect with the Bolt still on the stack.
b) I float for red with City, the ping gets put on the stack. I then announce Bolt and pay for it with the floating mana. My opponent goes down to 0, and I win the game with the last damage still on the stack.
If I am correct, it seems this is one of few examples where it would be advantageous to tap for mana before announcing spells.


correct




How about Scenario #2? I'm at 4 life, my opponent is at three. He casts Chain Lightning on me, and City of Brass and Mountain are my sources of red. (Before we discuss this scenario, I am under the impression that the "chain" is not a triggered ability, but rather, part of the resolution of the spell.)

In this situation, is there any way for me to win off the Chain Lightning?

Opp: Chain Lightning, targeting you. Pass priority.
Me: Pass priority
(Chain Lightning resolves, I take 3, going to 1, and have the option of paying RR to make another copy.)
Me: Pay RR, tapping City of Brass and Mountain.

My understanding is that Chain Lightning is being resolved, and my option to chain it back is part of the resolution of the spell. When I pay the optional RR, I now have two effects (Chain, City of Brass ping) that I can stack however I want. In order to win, I stack the ping first, and the chain below that. Are the following statements correct? Please let me know if I am incorrect or imprecise in any of the following statements below:
- Chain Lightning "option" is not a trigger, therefore cannot be Stifled.
- Chain Lightning copy and City of Brass ping are "simultaneous", and thus can be stacked in two different orders.
- It is the "controller" of the effect/permanent that created the effect that determines how these effects are stacked, rather than the active player.
- I control the Chain Lightning copy and the ping trigger from City of Brass comes from a permanent that I control, therefore I can stack it as described above to win the game.


wrong
as you already mentioned, copying the Chain Lightning is part of the spells resolution. So while resolving your opponents Chain Lightning you go down to 1 and during that you may chose to pay RR. If you do so and tap your City, its ability triggers. Still as part of Chain Lightnings Resolution, its copy is put onto the stack. AFTER that, your triggered ability of City of Brass is put onto the stack and therefore will resolve first.




A different question, but somewhat related--once you announce a spell, are you required to pay its costs if you can legally do so with the mana you are able to produce with the permanents you have available (i.e., lands, creatures with mana abilities, artifacts with mana abilities; but not Lion's Eye Diamond because of its timing restriction; not Spirit Guides because they are in your hand, a concealed zone; and not Ritual effects, for both timing reasons and because they are in your hand)?


no, you are not required to do so. If you announce CotV1 and forgot about the Trinisphere, the whole action is reversed. You are not forced to take more mana from your Tombs.




So imagine scenario #3. I am at 3 life. My only untapped mana sources are two Ancient Tombs. There is a Trinisphere in play and I want to play Chalice of the Void with X=1.

Case A: I announce Chalice of the Void for X=1, because I forgot about Trinisphere. I can legally tap Ancient Tomb because paying life is not part of its cost. Do I have to do so if my opponent immediately points out the Trinisphere effect?
Case B: I tap Ancient Tomb for 2 mana. Tomb trigger resolves, and I go down to 1. I then announce CotV with X=1. Does the situation in case A change?
Case C: Both of us forget about Trinisphere, and we only recognize this after the main phase/turn is over. What happens in this case?

You have commited a Game Play Error-Game Rule Violation for not paying the appropriate mana cost which results in a warning, your opponent will receive a Warning for Game Play Error-Failure to maintain game state. However, this only fits if the judges conclusion is that you really FORGOT about the Trinisphere. If it was intentional, it might be CVheating - Fraud which might result in a DQ.



Finally, imagine scenario #4. I am at 3 life, as before, except this time my untapped mana sources are one Ancient Tomb and two Horizon Canopy. Imagine also that instead of Trinisphere, there are two Sphere of Resistance effects.

Case A: I announce Chalice of the Void for X=1, and my opponent immediately points out the Sphere effect, so I have to pay 4 mana. I can legally pay up to 3 life for any costs. Am I obligated to tap the Ancient Tomb, both Horizon Canopies, and to pay 2 life in order to pay for Chalice? (In this case, I would go down to 1, with the Tomb trigger killing me after Chalice is resolved.)
Case B: I tap Ancient Tomb for 2 mana; trigger resolves and puts me at 1. I then announce CotV at 1. My opponent points out the Sphere effect. I can pay up to 1 life for any costs at this point, but I cannot actually generate 2 more mana to pay for CotV. Do I have to generate as much mana as I can with any mana abilities I have on board? (My understanding is I am not.)
If so, I would need to tap for a third mana with one Canopy, which would kill me. Otherwise, I am unable to generate 4 mana to pay for the announce Chalice, so the play is illegal and returned to my hand. I have already tapped the Tomb for 2 mana, however, so I am still at 1 life, and can elect to use those two mana for another play if I choose to do so. My Canopies remain untapped.

same as before, you are not forced to pay the additional cost.

[lordofthepit]

Thanks for the quick and thorough response!


wrong
as you already mentioned, copying the Chain Lightning is part of the spells resolution. So while resolving your opponents Chain Lightning you go down to 1 and during that you may chose to pay RR. If you do so and tap your City, its ability triggers. Still as part of Chain Lightnings Resolution, its copy is put onto the stack. AFTER that, your triggered ability of City of Brass is put onto the stack and therefore will resolve first.

I'm a bit confused by this part. I understand that the copy placed as part of Chain Lightning's resolution is put on the stack before the triggered ability of City of Brass. I just don't understand why this is the case. From my (incorrect) perspective, you have the option of activating mana abilities any time a cost (optional or not) is required, and this happens during the resolution of Chain Lightning.

I'm not questioning the fact that you're correct, but can you tell me specifically which rule governs this interaction? Thanks a lot!

Edit: I wanted to better explain the source of my confusion. I would think that playing copies of Chain Lightning is similar to scenario #1a with playing Lightning Bolt, which seems straightforward to me. But the distinction for me is here--with Lightning Bolt, you can choose to announce the Bolt, choose targets, lock in costs, and then pay costs (although doing so would kill you in the scenario I have drawn up). But in scenario #2, with the resolved Chain copy, it says first that you may pay the optional cost. Then it says that if you do, put the copy on the stack. That sounds like scenario #1b to me.

[DerFern]

but can you tell me specifically which rule governs this interaction? Thanks a lot!

Even though triggered abilities may trigger DURING the resolution of a apell or ability, they are not actually put on the stack until the previous spell or ability is done resolving. Therefore, City of Brass triggers during the resolution of Chain Lightning but is only put on the stack after the copy was created and Chain Lightning resolved.

603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability’s trigger event, that ability
automatically triggers. The ability doesn’t do anything at this point.
603.2a Because they aren’t cast or activated, triggered abilities can trigger even when it isn’t legal
to cast spells and activate abilities. Effects that prevent abilities from being activated don’t
affect them.
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the
next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, “Timing and Priority.” The ability becomes
the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other
characteristics. It remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed
from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.

[lordofthepit]

Thanks a lot. That was very clear--rule 603.3 was the key!