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Iron Buddha
02-13-2011, 11:22 AM
My paragon is Antoine Ruel's Psychatog from 2005 Extended Pro Tour Los Angeles. What I want is to play a Legacy-variant of that deck. So you know where I'm coming from.

I consider the deck control, but it's just as closely related to Tempo Thresh Aggro-control as it is to conventional control. The deck plays rather like "control-aggro". The term indicates that the control part is more dominant. The aspects of control I have adopted are specifically the heavy land base and the 4C bombs. Aggro-control only adopts the disruption part of control. Cards like Psychatog, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Vedalken Shackles, Decree of Justice, Mishra's Factory are clearly in the sense of aggro.

In the MUC thread you can find a MUC variant that is called stack-oriented MUC, which is actually exactly the kind of deck I have in mind. However, as this is the MUC thread, people have always been opposed to the much needed splash.
Additionally the permanent-based version has always been more popular than the stack-oriented version and finally the deck disappeared.

In the established decks forum there once was a thread for an U/G/B control deck utilizing Pernicious deed, Tarmogoyf, and Tombstalker. The author said that the deck had been strictly developed from old Psychatog control, but Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker had surpassed Psychatog as the best cheap big beatstick. The deck used the Intuition-Loam-engine instead of Fact or Fiction, but it was questioned by posters if the Intuition-Loam-engine is actually better than FoF. One of my builds is very similar to the deck posted there. However, I can't find the thread anymore.

The deck is by definition blue based. The most promising splashes seem to be white and black, because these are the only colours with good spot-removal. (Green has no spot-removal and red's spot-removal is even worse than blue's) Green has Tarmogoyf. Red has ?!


This is my shell (I think that's a good starting point):

16-18 (roughly said, this is my early-game package)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell (Counterspell is a mid- and lategame Daze, you know Daze is good)
4 spot-removal (Swords to Plowshares or the black equivalent: my favourites are Smother and Ghastly Demise. I don't think more than 4 spot-removal is necessarily needed, as this deck has a lot of digging power)
4-6 disruption (Force Spike, Mana Leak, Spell Snare, Path to Exile, Thoughseize, Spell Pierce, Ghastly Demise, Smother,...)

4 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm

1 land + 2 Impulse OR 3 Ponder (only 4 BS + 4 FoF is very low)

23 lands
4 Mishra's Factory (I think it must be)

3+ answers to Vial and Counterbalance (full sweeper vs. low costed suboptimal sweeper, but my testing points that Disk and Deed > EE)

5+ Win-cons (It is necessary that the win-cons have a certain powerlevel, because slots are so tight. You must culminate as much power into one card as possible; this is why I'm opposed to cards like Vendilion Clique. The other reason why the powerlevel of the win-cons must be so high is Fact or Fiction and Impulse/Ponder)


some card-choices:

Nevinyrral's Disk: 3x Disk main and 3x EE in the SB is tech; I think preboard Disk > EE, and postboard I like to run both depending on the matchup. 3 is the minimum number for answers against Vial and Counterbalance, additionally I have one Academy Ruins.

Vedalken Shackles: Vedalken Shackles is bigger than everything else. It's bigger than Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Decree of Justice, Baneslayer Angel, Meloku, Elspeth, or Knight of the Reliquary. Awesome creature! If you need board-control, but don't have space, take Vedalken Shackles.

Decree of Justice: Decree of Justice is an updated Nimble Mongoose for mana heavy decks.

Tombstalker: Tombstalker is the black update of Nimble Mongoose.

Force Spike and Mana Leak: I prefer Force Spike and Mana Leak over Spell Snare and co. for two reasons: 1. They fight Planeswalkers; Planesalkers are one of the reasons why one want to run EE (with 4 counters) over Disk or Pernicious Deed. 2. They have more quality in the early-game.


Not included:

Counterbalance Top: I've tried to fit it in, but Counterbalance Top would change the deck completely. It would turn the deck into another type of deck. It would change the soul of deck for two reasons: 1. SDT + Counterbalance are 8 cards to fit in. That's a lot. 2. The mana-curve is not perfect for the engine, so it would require to be adjusted. That once again changes the deck and finally the deck undergoes a complete change.

Jace TMS, Intuition-Loam and Crucible of Worlds: They belong to another line of thought: being slow (incremental), but generating endless card-advantage. But why acting so slow? Just go for the win after stabilization and chain Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Shackles, Decree of Justice + Mishra's Factory. That being said, I think it's a matter of playstyle. You cannot say per se that Jace TMS, Intuition-Loam or Crucible of Worlds is better than Fact or Fiction. Apart from that Fact or Fiction, Tarmogyf, Decree of Justice, etc. have certain advantages over Jace TMS, etc in terms of flexibility. That is very important to note. But I don't go into detail for now.


I have three versions at the moment. Every one complys with my shell.

U/w/g

23
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Island

11
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

7
3 Decree of Justice/Vedalken Shackles
4 Tarmogoyf

3
3 Nevinyrral's Disk

16
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Force Spike
2 Mana Leak

SB: 15
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Path to Exile
4 Spell Pierce


U/w

24
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Plain
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
8 Island

10
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
2 Impulse

5
2 Decree of Justice
3 Vedalken Shackles

3
3 Nevinyrral's Disk

18
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force Spike
3 Mana Leak

SB: 15
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Vendilion Clique


U/b/g

23
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
2 Island

11
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

16
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Smother
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Force Spike
2 Mana Leak

6
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4
4 Pernicious Deed

SB: 15
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Spell Pierce
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother



Other interesting cards:
Wrath of God
Eternal Dragon
Cunning Wish
Sensei's Divining Top

Mon,Goblin Chief
02-13-2011, 03:35 PM
As someone who's been down that road, I understand perfectly why you want to play a deck like those. The sad truth of the matter is, they simply don't work well enough in Legacy, at least that's my experience. The aggro-decks are to fast and resilient to beat them with a deck that wants to go to the lategame but doesn't have large amounts of removal (not countermagic, removal) or CB Top.

Some notes that might be helpful:
your last two decks are basically Landstill-decks - Standstill/Jace + Ponder/some FoF/creatures. I've played with those ideas before (I hate Standstill but love control) and they didn't pan out for me.
Decree of Justice is pretty bad. The only reason to ever run it is to enable Standstill, otherwise it just isn't worth the amount of mana it needs to be effective.
Your lists have extremely few ways to deal with Lackey on the draw and practically 0 of dealing with a resolved Vial before it has dropped a Ringleader. In my experience that leads to huge problems.

Jace is just better than FoF in my experience (outside of Vintage if they allowed us to play four FoF - Vintage-decks are just so much faster capitalizing from the card-boost). When Jace resolves and sticks, the game ends (though it may take quite a few more turns, it's basically over once you get to untap with the man). When FoF resolves you're up a few cards (which will likely allow you to get back to parity on board) but as soon as you've used up the burst of removal (which is what you'll usually need to dig for) you're back to square one and hoping to draw something.

Sorry to be so critical, I'm not trying to bash your decks for fun, I tried to make these kinds of decks work for a long time and a lot of what I tried looked quite similar to what you have. I never found something that was actually good enough that I'd have wanted to play it.

Qweerios
02-13-2011, 07:26 PM
Looks like it functions like Faestalker where the removal and control package is intense with a marginal beatdown aspect. I think that for your deck, although white has great removal, you shouldn't splash it. The blue shell is nice with great CA (fof) and control (counterspell). I believe black would be the best complementary color followed by a small green splash for goyf and deed. Smother and Go for the Throat are some of the best removal you can have next to swords. I would stay away from tempo generating cards such as stifle, sinkhole, daze, and Snuff Out and focus on your CA and power cards such as FoF, Counterspell, Deed, Goyf, Stalker, and Jace (even though you disagree). Here is what I suggest.


Creatures (8)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
2 Vendillion Clique

Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Smother
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

Lands (23)
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Forest

Iron Buddha
02-14-2011, 03:56 PM
Thanks for the feedback

Well, my deck packs 16 early-game cards (4x FoW, 4x CS, 4x Spot removal, 4x something else)
+ 3 Ponder + 4x Tarmogoyf, who is useful in the early-game, too. Those are 23 early-game cards.
Concerning the second build: 18 (4x FoW,4x CS, 4x StP, 6x … ) + 2 Impulse = 20
Turn 2 CS is easy to hit with 18 blue sources. Ponder/Impulse is almost guaranteed to find an early-game card before turn 4. The "4x something else" slots can easily be filled by addtional removal (but this deck has more digging power than a Landstill build).

If you compare that with the early-game package of an average Landstill build, they are on par:
4x FoW, 3x CS, 3x Spell Snare, 4x StP, 2x PtE, 3x EE → 19

The overall removal package of Landstill is: 2 WoG, 1 Humility, 4 StP, 2 PtE, 3 EE = 12
I have 3/4 Disk/deed, 4 StP or 3 Ghastly demise + 2 Smother = 8
That is indeed lower, but Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker/Vedalken Shackles may act as removal pieces,too, but what is important is that a resolved Disk/deed is already pretty much game over if followed by FoF.
And don't forget the 3 ponders that dig for removal.

Yeah, I like to compare my deck with Landstill :D

Jace: Well, I'm not sure if the deck improves by -4 FoF, +4 Jace....
I have to admit that Jace is good, but is FoF really the weak-point of the deck? Actually, the 4x FoF thing is that part of MUC that worked best for them.
They both have to be build around. Maybe the question is whether a version build around Jace is better than one build around FoF.



Thoughtseize makes the deck more aggressive, as it can take care of removal (e.g. PtE in the Zoo matchup) and a Tarmogoyf, that is not dealt with, is a dangerous thing. I also really like that Thoughtseize is able to deal with Krosan Grip (However, they may have a Brainstorm). It's badass against control.
Strictly as an early-game card, it's worse than a normal removal or cheap counter, since you have to pay 2 life in order to deal with the threat.
Admittedly, the more I think about it, the more I like it.

3x Pernicious deed is enough, although Deed is a powerful card.

I really think that 4 BS + 4 FoF is not enough...at least +2 Ponder/Preordain/Impulse. In my testing they performed exceptionally strong.

Another problem I see is that the deck doesn't have enough answers against Lackey on the draw (only 4 FoW). This is why I added Ghastly Demise.

Vendilion Clique. It's very good against control and combo. But it's only mediocre against aggro (actually it's bad). I think the deck should rather focus on the aggro matchup. With 4x Thoughtseize + 4 CS control and combo matchups look really good.

Maelstron Pulse...hm.. I think the only reason to run it are Planeswalkers?

I agree that tempo cards (Stifle, Daze, Snuff Out) are not what this deck wants.

That being said, I come to the following list:

23 lands

11
4 BS
4 FoF
3 Ponder (or 2 ponder and another Thoughtseize)

11
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell snare/Thoughtseize

5 (this is the removal package that the most recent black Tempo Thresh lists run)
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother

7
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

3
3 Pernicious Deed


EDIT:
The white versions have 4 Swords to Plowshares and 4 FoW for Lackey. The black version probably needs another answer.
3 Disk/3 Pernicious deed are my only weapons against Vial, but with the enormous digging power you find them in time. It's just about resolving them. But preboard I normally don't face any hate. Postboard I can add 3 EE. If you compare with landstill, they also only have 3 answers against Vial (3 EE). If 3 Disk/ 3 deed doesn't work I opt for a 2 disk / 2 EE split.