Master Transmuter MUD

[ivanpei]

First of all top props to this list here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19932-Meandeck-MUD

This list is pretty damn awesome and original, top props to the creator and pilot!

I was spiffed by a few things however, Stompy lands always combo well with Chalice of the Void. With welders, tops and keys, Chalice was not MDed but I noticed in over 80% of Matchups you will want Chalice. I wanted to play a deck similar to Meandeck MUD but could run chalice. Thus, I started to look for a different splash that provided the "I win" power similar to Goblin Welder. The answer: Master Transmuter. I first realized her power through my EDH Sharuum deck where I always tutor for her as my No. 1 Target. She is a recurring blink/show and tell. To those who are still not grasping the meaning of this, imagine these situations:

1. Show and Tell: Bounce a cheap artifact, drop Sundering Titan, GG.
2. Blinker: Your Robot is targeted by Swords to Plowshares, bounce Robot, redrop robot.
3. You want to re-rape your opponent: Bounce your Sundering Titan/Duplicant/Myr Battlesphere and redrop, enter the battle effects rape face again.

Other synergies are: She is an artifact, that means she can be flipped to metal worker. She can also double blink with Voltaic Key. She is not 1cc, and thus can be run alongside Chalice of the Void. Mathematics of awesomeness add up now?

I will be using the Meandeck MUD list as a start and tune it from there, here is the list:

The Cheap accel/artifacts:
3 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Lightning Greaves

4 Master Transmuter
4 Metalworker
4 Kudoltha Forgemaster

2 Treasure Mage/ Fabricate
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Duplicant
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan

4 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Darksteel citadel

This deck is almost identical to Meandeck MUD and plays similarly with Lodestone Golem -> Master Transmuter, Welder-> Chalice and Sensei's Divining top-> Treasure Mage/ Fabricate. Some tweaks were also made to the mana base and the tutor targets.

With the 4cc slot filled, Lodestone Golem was a natural cut. Welder gets replaced by Chalice and the consistency provided by Top is replaced by the Treasure Mage/ Fabricate. I personally believe Fabricate is a much better tutor though you don't get a body attached.

In my opinion, the 2 deck play similarly except you lose the "regrowth effect" of welder in exchange for the accelerating power of Transmuter + the "Mother of Runes" protection and blinking effect. Most importantly, you can play the mighty Chalice of the Void. Thoughts?

The SB will finally feature Null Rod hate that the red splash is missing:

4 Annul
3 Negate
4 Trinisphere
4 Phyrexian Revoker

Annul and Negate are both preemptive answers to Null Rod. I'm sure they may be other more flexible answers like Spell pierce or Manaleak, so it all depends on the meta.

[dillonkbase]

This was pretty well discussed in the meandeck Mud thread but 3sphere is really bad, I would suggest either lodestone(a little to slow out of the sb for combo) or more likely thorn of amethyst or sphere of resistance. Both are easier to play turn one, mulitiples aren't dead draws, and they work against spells that chalice isn't affecting(chalice should be covering 1 or 2 costs which are the only spells trin helps against).

[GGoober]

This was an old concept 1-2 years ago developed by someone on deckcheck (not by me but I made a mention of the deck: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14416-Welder-Transmuter-(Staxless-Stax), although ignore my commentaries, back in the day I think I know a lot about MTG, not that I know much now but probably a little more than before :P)

Obviously there's more tools now with Forgemaster.


With welders, tops and keys, Chalice was not MDed but I noticed in over 80% of Matchups you will want Chalice. I wanted to play a deck similar to Meandeck MUD but could run chalice.

This is a flawed train of thought. If you have tested his deck you'll realize why the "80% of Matchups you will want Chalice" is completely untrue. The power of Welder/Key in his list is much faster/synergistic to beat bulk of decks than he needs Chalice. It's a common flaw these days to think that "3Sphere/Chalice/FoW is awesome, so I have to run them in a deck" without thinking why a particular deck actually does not need such cards.

All in all, not playing Welder/Key is a balance with playing Chalice. Here are my thoughts:

Meandeck MUD plays Welder/Key over Chalice maindeck for a good reason. I don't think you should dismiss it as being less important than the sheer power of Chalice. Meandeck MUD knows that by not playing Chalice to have Key/Welder, the synergies and speed are huge, huge enough to beat decks that fold to Chalice. This is the very basis why Chalice is in the sideboard (i.e. swap out Key/Welder that do not beat the games where Chalice does e.g. Combo).

If you opt for the Chalice route, you are already implementing the deck design constraints i.e. you are accepting that your deck does not have the speed to beat decks that fold to Chalice. Sometimes, we always look at cards the way we USED to look at them e.g. "Chalice @1 beats a ton of cards/decks", but we fail to realize WHY we really need to run Chalice. For Meandeck MUD, I'll say that Chalice in the SB makes more sense than in the MD simply because the deck can beat many decks with the sheer speed/synergy of Key/Welder while only needing Chalice against combo (where Welder/Key do not beat combo).

TLDR: It's a flaw, in my opinion, to base decks off on how cards function without relating to how the cards function within the deck itself. For the same reason, I have been testing 3Sphere and continually be displeased.

I've posted my reasons in multiple threads, but the summary is:
1) 3Sphere is hard to setup turn 1 needing 4 cards (Sol-land, 3Sphere, Mox, stuff pitching to Mox)
2) 3Sphere sucks in multiple
3) 3Sphere is very weak on turn 2+
4) 3Sphere is weak when opponents play Vial/Hierarch/Moxs (i.e. the current metagame).

If at all, I would design a deck that beats aggro without 3Sphere, and move 3Spheres to the SB, where they are most relevant, reducing dead carrds in the deck. Once your deck can beat aggro consistently e.g. Meandeck MUD, you just need combo/sphere hate in the SB, and to this point, Thorn of Amethyst is much stronger, since it is
1) Easy to setup needing 2 cards (Sol-land, Thorn) or 3 cards (non sol-land i.e. much less situational, Mox, stuff pitching to Mox)
2) Thorn is great in multiples
3) Thorn is less powerful than 3Sphere for 0-1cmc spells, but has same value for 2cmc spells, and more value for 3cmc+ spells

EDIT: But if you're playing Grim Monoliths e.g. your list and Meandeck MUD, you can probably support 3Sphere better than decks without Monolith (since you only need 3 cards now to play turn 1 3Sphere)

[Koby]

I've been testing an aggro version of this deck with Steel Overseer and Master of Etherium in place of Master Transmuter and Metalworker (due to MTGO availability) and have found that Thorns of Amethyst is one of the cards I board into most often. It helps that this deck is able to power out a lot of big hitters very quickly.

My favorite openings involve: Sol land, Lightning Greaves, pass. Mox Opal/Diamond, land, Lodestone Golem, bash for 5. :)

I do agree with Metalworker on playing cards that are good by themselves, and not towards playing a cute combo. Master Transmuter definitly fits into the latter.

[ivanpei]

@ Walker, Thanks for you insights. I am merely proposing an alternative splash. I agree 100% that welder, key and top interactions are extremely powerful. Also I have realized that welder + wurmcoil is broken while transmuter doesn't work with wurmcoil. I'm merely proposing a combo-ish version for those who want to play with chalice. Some people play mono brown, I think the blue splash is better. Meandeck MUD is a very powerful deck, I'm not trying to "upgrade" it, just trying to propose a different splash that can get robots on the ground as fast.

@ Ruckus, I understand your line of thought. Maybe you have a list to share? I have tried an aggro version but the robots like Juggy and lodestone are still too fragile for my tastes. Firespout immediately comes to mind.

[Koby]

Bomholt's list with the following changes:

-2 Crucible of Worlds
-4 Goblin Welder
-4 Great Furnace
-4 Metalworker

+2 Ghostly Quarters
+4 Steel Overseer
+4 Master of Etherium
+4 Seat of the Synod

Kuldotha Forgemaster is still a beating, and casting it on turn 2 still wrecks most decks without pinpoint removal.

[arebennian]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21146_New_Tech_For_Legacy_Metal_Force.html

Blue Based MUD

[GGoober]

@ivanpei, I didn't mean to say that your approach is wrong etc. I was just defending a decklist that Top 2'd, i.e. there's a reason why Chalice is in the SB and the Welders are in the main. And I think it's good you revived Master Transmuter (my friend is working on a list as well) because this is where innovation/discussion give rise to how the deck will work/fail.

Regardless, Master Transmuter didn't work too well 1-2 years ago, and a big reason was she was just too slow. The effects that you mention can all be achieved with Welder at a cheaper cost, although that won't allow you to run Chalice optimally in the maindeck. If you run Transmuter, you can run Chalice, but your burst will be slower. However, 1-2 years ago there was no Grim Monolith legal so I can see how being quite a boost in your proposed list. Don't forget that she bounces Grim Monoliths back for reusing (a trick I use in EDH quite often :P) and cycle through Titans for fun.

Blue does has much more merit than red though. You get Propaganda in the SB, Trinket/Treasure Mages/Intuition, so there's a lot more room for card selection when designing a deck. To be honest, Forgemaster is probably not needed in a blue list. It seems a little slow when you can just go Treasure Mage -> big Dude and either hardcast it with mana or vial in with Transmuter. Forgemaster is unnecessary card disadvantage (since you are not playing Welder you don't get to recur things back). I think Forgemaster won't work in this deck based on this reason. (Don't suggest Academy Ruins, because Forgemaster + Ruins is painfully slow lol). I haven't done enough testing so I don't know how ssynergistic your list is when compared to Meandeck MUD. At the superficial level, the synergies with Forgemaster are weaker without Welder but adding Transmuter.

@Rukus, Glad to see you going a Merfolk-approach to Stompy :P You'll eventually find a lot of similarity between your list (my list is similar as well) and Merfolks, i.e. the ability to develop a board with minimal resources while pressuring your opponent's resources and board development, and that's exactly what Merfolk does, except that Stompy doesn't play counters, but rather prison-pieces. With enough creatures, Overseer and Master are the Lords that play very similarly to how Merfolk seeks to develop its position with minimal resources (via Vial/Lords/manlands) while disrupting opponents (Wasteland/Counters). I'll be updating my thread someday since I have consolidated a lot of thoughts and played quite a lot of matchups to get an idea where the deck is heading and how viable it is. Will still be bringing it to weekly tournaments to see how it does (people are starting to pack big hate like Energy Fluxes and Trygons now :( I Top 4'd and Top 1'st in my small 10-14 ppl weekly tourneys so hope to keep up the good work!)

[Koby]

I tried out Transmute Artifact, but frankly it's terrible without playing a huge amount of Islands. And if you're already playing Transmute Artifact, then playing Goblin Welder is already better, which means now you're playing Volcanic Island rather than artifact lands.

As much as Grim Monolith, Key, and bombs are good, Transmute Artifact + Grim Monolith only happens every so often, and never enough to actually accelerate you into those bombs. Everytime I tested it out, I was 1 or 2 mana off from putting a fatty into play. Kuldotha Forgemaster builds are just sexier and easier to play with.