[Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

[unicoerner]

Hi,
this deck finished in the finals in a bigger tournament recently.

4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
1 [IN] Island (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [JGC] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
3 [ROE] All Is Dust
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [FNM] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [GP] Repeal
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [M10] Ponder
3 [UL] Crop Rotation

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [R] Energy Flux
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle

I tested a bit with it quite a bit and it seems stong.

1) I d like to have sth in the spot of Expedition Map. Its good for Thirst and it shuffles the library for Top, but still.
I d like to have either sth which searches library for lands and puts the land into play or lets us play one extra land which some other good effect.

2) Tabernacle could deserve a maindeck slot imo

[perm]

I don't understand how you don't get demolished by aggro

[Fatal]

Simply Aggro is better MU than tempo ******** with stifles.

Glimmerpost is just a win card vs aggro, also Titans can add u 10-12 life in 3 or 4 round. That's enough to race with Zoo or burn. I tested it.

[4eak]

Glimmerpost is the tits against aggro, but sometimes it just isn't enough.

A single Maze of Ith has been fantastic. It buys enough time to get the rest of my lands into play and do awesome things. Tabernacle has been less impressive (which performs much better against things like Dredge and Belcher).

I've also been pleased with the switch from Ponder to Brainstorm.


peace,
4eak

[MattH]

Seems like the perfect place to try Living Wish.

[Fatal]

Also though about exploration.. with so many lands it could be speed up a little.

[moseby]

Has anyone tried amulet of vigor? It seems like dirty tech with root maze.

[Rock Lee]

1) I d like to have sth in the spot of Expedition Map. Its good for Thirst and it shuffles the library for Top, but still.
I d like to have either sth which searches library for lands and puts the land into play or lets us play one extra land which some other good effect.

What is sth? seek the horizon?

[death]

I would like to give this deck a go. But I'm not sold on Kozilek and Primeval Titan, though they might be the result of months of testing. Still, I would try 4x Intuition and 4x Emrakul here and treat the deck as pure combo, see if that'll make this consistently ramp (Cloudposts, Vesuva, Candelabra), find, and cast Emrakul by turn 4.

[Koby]

Has anyone tried amulet of vigor? It seems like dirty tech with root maze.

I have tried an odd-ball green ramp deck with Cloudpost and Vesuva prior to Glimmerpost being printed. It was modeled after Vintage Stax with Smokestack, Exploration, Crucible, and a few Eldrazi for a quick finish. I was also using Uba Mask, Ensnaring Bridge, and Sylvan Library for filtering.

It was a fun experiement, but heavily relied on the anti-creature cards to stop attackers, and highly susceptible to removal. With Glimmerpost, this might no longer be as big of an issue. Zuran Orb wouldn't be a bad call here too. I believe at the end I splashed white for Horizon Canopy to allow more digging.

Crucible + Exploration + ways to sac lands. =D

[moseby]

I played this at a local tournament, 20 peps showed for a ruby. Going 3-2 to make top 8 then losing to another landstill deck.
I played against
1 life and taxes (0-2). I blame the pilot on this one but a clock with wastes main, and a ghost quarter from the board didnt help.
2x counter top (2-0), neither game was close, even when one of my opponents had two resolved goyfs bashing in one game.
3x land still (3-4). I only won one match vs land still (was 4c version) and only because he did not see a loam or many wastes.

My board was slightly different where the original list has 4 Energy Flux I have 3 KGrips and an extra propaganda, because I do not see how it can deal with a resolved crucible of worlds.
The long and short is that if a deck can recur wastes 12 post may as well pack it in.
The only other think I noticed is that I was @ 2 with a flying beater onboard, and I was able to resolve kozilek, had it been Ulamog I could have offed angel and won. I would definitely like to see him in the deck somewhere. I will try to make some changes somewhere to squeeze him in.

Regardless the deck is phenomenally fun to play, and more enjoyable is watch people look at the deck and shake their heads at the crazyness it can do.

[Finn]

I was thinking Intuition and Petrified Field. It might be good against Wastelands too.

[moseby]

petrified field is just too slow

[ScatmanX]

What is sth? seek the horizon?
I'd like to know that too...

And by the way, what's an Eldazri? (title)

[death]

petrified field is just too slow

How about Stifle + Predict in 1 card?

Teferi's Response

[Rico Suave]

What is sth? seek the horizon?

Extreme shorthand for "something" I believe.

[Grollub]

Explore could be an option in the place of the maps, tho you'd probably want 1 to 2 more lands to fully utilize it consistently.


Extreme shorthand for "something" I believe.

Indeed or, which I believe is the case in context, the official danish organization for service dogs. ;-)

[moseby]

Rock,

Just currious, how do you deal with a resolved crucible + wasteland? besides pithing needle?
I found that I always had my needle nuked. Weather it be by disk, rachet bomb, or EE

[menace13]

Some Guy 4-0ed few nights ago, 3-1ed, and another player 3-1ed as well with the deck on mtgo. Few changes in the first player's list.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/2086204

[Obob]

I was playing Merfolk in the MTGO tournament you linked to, and I played against both of the TurboDrazi decks. Both matches were good; I went 2-1 against Zahori and 1-2 against PTPaul. The All is Dusts really hurt merfolk badly. Every game I won was due to keeping locuses in check with wastelands. Crop rotation is good defense against wasteland though, especially if your opponent doesn't know it's coming.

One advantage of this deck online is that Candelabra's are about $1 a piece.

I'm curious to see if this will remain a competitive deck, or if it can be beaten easily once its no longer so rogue.

[menace13]

I was playing Merfolk in the MTGO tournament you linked to, and I played against both of the TurboDrazi decks. Both matches were good; I went 2-1 against Zahori and 1-2 against PTPaul. The All is Dusts really hurt merfolk badly. Every game I won was due to keeping locuses in check with wastelands. Crop rotation is good defense against wasteland though, especially if your opponent doesn't know it's coming.

One advantage of this deck online is that Candelabra's are about $1 a piece.

I'm curious to see if this will remain a competitive deck, or if it can be beaten easily once its no longer so rogue.

Ah, Yeah I ran into you before. In a DE or the PE, I was playing Sneak Attack. I faced Pt Paul with that list in the PE, I won, but man was it fun to see that deck. You are right, I went and got 4 Candels after that(now for those Titans)

[Rock Lee]

Rock,

Just currious, how do you deal with a resolved crucible + wasteland? besides pithing needle?
I found that I always had my needle nuked. Weather it be by disk, rachet bomb, or EE

If you got to the point where they resolved disc/ratchet and then activated them, you long since lost. Its against stacks variants that I run 4 flux for. Loam variants that I run needle for. Your entire sideboard should be anti-wasteland and anti-combo. I'm beginning to wonder if I even need the propagandas.

[zahori]

I just wanted to link to my video playing the deck in that Daily Event:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWyKbmMCf0o

I recorded all 4 rounds.

The deck is a blast to play and VERY powerful.

Here are a few ideas I've thought of:

Is stifle worth considering instead of FoW? It can be a solution against some combo decks AND it counters Wasteland.

Could Moment' Peace be better than Propaganda?

I want to play some more with this deck and try different things, so hit me up on MTGO if interested in a few games?

[Obob]

I like the videos. We had a good match. It's interesting seeing it from the other side of the table.

[death]

Kinda like attacking with 4 Vengevines on turn 4 isn't it.

[Obob]

This deck (or a slight variation of it) just won another daily on MTGO. Two people played it, and of the 8 combined matches they played, the only lost match was the mirror.

[GGoober]

Hmm I think Trinket Mage fits the slot of TfK better:

1) same mana cost, both pitch to FoW.
2) 2/2 body to chump a turn which the deck needs to get another turn into bombs
3) Fetches Expedition Map into more posts/glimmerlifegain/Eye-of-ugin to go off
4) Fetches Top/Candelabra, sick!
5) Always ensures you get what you need.

1) TfK draw 3 instead of tutor 1.
2) Instant speed.

At this point, I'm leaning for TM, because most of the the time, TfK is really just digging into business spell/ramp (which Trinket Mage will almost always tutor with certainty while providing another extra turn on a 2/2 body). If wastelock is a problem, 3 Needles in the SB along with the TM maindeck could be a house in fighting those decks.

[Rock Lee]

Hmm I think Trinket Mage fits the slot of TfK better:

1) same mana cost, both pitch to FoW.
2) 2/2 body to chump a turn which the deck needs to get another turn into bombs
3) Fetches Expedition Map into more posts/glimmerlifegain/Eye-of-ugin to go off
4) Fetches Top/Candelabra, sick!
5) Always ensures you get what you need.

1) TfK draw 3 instead of tutor 1.
2) Instant speed.

At this point, I'm leaning for TM, because most of the the time, TfK is really just digging into business spell/ramp (which Trinket Mage will almost always tutor with certainty while providing another extra turn on a 2/2 body). If wastelock is a problem, 3 Needles in the SB along with the TM maindeck could be a house in fighting those decks.

Your idea is sound, however I consider your innovative approach fundamentally flawed, which is common among most optimizers.

There is a great danger in looking at cards with similar casting costs and even functions and then assuming they share roles. Evenmoreso, I would caution against assuming that the current distribution of the deck as a whole is optimized, and that swapping cards one-for-one is the best way to improve it. This is an easy fix so people unknown to solid deck improvement often suggest it. I myself was in this category for a long time, thinking I could tweak a list by 1 or 2 cards and make it even better. However, these fixes are often a band-aid when you need a tourniquet. Once you are approaching a deck that is even close to being maximized, every single card you change will systematically alter the entire deck. In order to invigorate a deck above and beyond a prototype stage you need to see it much more organically, as every clip and twist will affect 71+ other cards in exponential ways.

That being said, I've been doing a few days of Trinket Mage work myself, and agree it is extremely strong. Where or even if it fits I'll leave with you guys for awhile. But I cannot stress enough, to consider the entire deck every time you consider changes.

[GGoober]

No I am fully aware of this, trust me. Sorry if I did not put that point across. For a similar reason, when people tell me to drop Overseers/Master of Etherium in my list or telling Meandeck MUD to play Chalice maindeck and drop Keys, sure we can all do so, but it ends up changing the entire deck because there are many interactions/synergies in built in them.

In your current list (not that I played it much, but the philosophy can be seen in how you played/designed your deck and your reports). It's a deck that is focused on constantly making land drops/playing accelerants/untappers, and digging for both answers to opposing deck and digging for accelerants. This was the main strength of Tfk and ponder as mentioned in your reports, and to cut TfK is more than just sacrificing the digging power, it's sacrificing how the deck was fundamentally built around a digging-dig-dig approach. Trinket Mage has its merits, and I think you're more aware of it than we are, but I think that the list could free up a little digging power, because much of the digging is really to find protection (against aggro) and a combo piece at the same time, where Trinket Mage fulfils that purpose. The style of the deck definitely changes with TM, which is why I am fully aware of the situation of 'looking-at-individual-cards-and-telling-you-to-replace-them". sorry if I didn't bring that piont across :)

[Rock Lee]

not that I played it much

I understand your intent, but this is all I read.

[GGoober]

There's only that much time in life to play that much MTG and decks right? :P I'll post next time when I've done enough testing then. Thanks!

[Rood]

So has Nature's Claim been tested in the board? It seems nasty against the likes of Back to Basics or Moon effects (when your tropical is untapped). Also, I feel like this deck should be moved into established. It's already placed extremely high in two tournaments and has found a place for itself on MTGO now too.

[Rock Lee]

So has Nature's Claim been tested in the board? It seems nasty against the likes of Back to Basics or Moon effects (when your tropical is untapped). Also, I feel like this deck should be moved into established. It's already placed extremely high in two tournaments and has found a place for itself on MTGO now too.

Chalice at 1 already bones you, and needing to keep open your Trops for NC seems horrific especially when you can still just walk into a magus. This is the same reason I don't run Krosan Grip or Wipe Away on the side, or Oxidize against decks I put in flux against.

[death]

The prototype did not play Forest, and adding one doesn't really solve land disruption. It will weaken the manabase because in crunch time you'll need blue mana active more than green.

[Top Deck]

my take on the whole thing is why trinket mage and why not instead add in Show and Tell. also instead of ponder i would suggest a 4 drop called Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

show and tell with either the eldrazi in hand or titan is better than what trinket mage does for us.

[Humphrey]

Well I tested the deck and wasnt impressed at all. In the first turns you play lands thats comes tapped and if your arent able to draw a thread you just die. Often I had clunky hands or lots of mana and nothing to play. After discussions with a friend I made some changes. Its not perfect yet, but I think its running better than the original version.

1 Eye of Ugin
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
4 Vesuva
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Primeval Titan
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
1 All Is Dust
4 Exploration
4 Time Spiral
3 Living Wish
3 Expedition Map
2 Breeding Pool
3 Brainstorm
1 Maze of Ith
2 Stroke of Genius
SB: 3 Energy Flux
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 Cloudpost
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 2 Maze of Ith

[Masamune]

Is Energy Flux enough against Staxes decks? :eek: How about Sacred Ground (armageddons/ wastes/ staxes/ snkiholes/ vindicates)?

[Rock Lee]

Is Energy Flux enough against Staxes decks? :eek: How about Sacred Ground (armageddons/ wastes/ staxes/ snkiholes/ vindicates)?

Sacred Ground is the best card possible against any sort of destruction. Unfortunately I don't run white, and have no plans to. There was a build prior to Glimmerpost that ran Knight of the Reliquary, Sacred Ground (sb), Chant (sb), swords (sb) as its white cards, but it is sub optimal to the current build. Trinket Mage's inclusion means EE is accessable to remove Chalice @ 1, which was the real troublemaker against stacks. However, as with all waste-recursion based decks, it is not a favorable matchup to start. Honestly I usually dont' even bring in the Fluxes against stacks unless they are extremely heavily brown.

[Masamune]

Sacred Ground is the best card possible against any sort of destruction. Unfortunately I don't run white, and have no plans to. There was a build prior to Glimmerpost that ran Knight of the Reliquary, Sacred Ground (sb), Chant (sb), swords (sb) as its white cards, but it is sub optimal to the current build. Trinket Mage's inclusion means EE is accessable to remove Chalice @ 1, which was the real troublemaker against stacks. However, as with all waste-recursion based decks, it is not a favorable matchup to start. Honestly I usually dont' even bring in the Fluxes against stacks unless they are extremely heavily brown.

Still you will be eaten alive by Armageddon and Smokestack...If you go waiting for Trinket Mage, you can already sleep in your coffin :\

[android]

I know I'm going to get run out of this thread on a rail but...

Run Life from the Loam.

[Shawn]

Conveniently, for those worried about Blood Moon, Armageddon, Back to Basics, etc, people aren't really playing those cards in the SCG Opens at a very high number, or in the midwest in general. If people are playing these cards, I'd say just play a different deck.

Also, the thing that excites me about the deck is the cards that are played that answer Emrakrul don't really do that against this deck- Jace requires you to have 6 other permanents, and a Clique to remove it from their hand, which is going to be hard to cast after they sacced 6 permanents to his trigger. If they have Karakas, take your free turn, replay Emrakrul, take your free turn, and wipe their board.

[Rock Lee]

Still you will be eaten alive by Armageddon and Smokestack...If you go waiting for Trinket Mage, you can already sleep in your coffin :\


I know I'm going to get run out of this thread on a rail but...

Run Life from the Loam.

People who make suggestions without testing the deck will be shot, bitten, then shot again.

The list of green and blue cards that have been tested is extensive and I JUST MIGHT have started with the most played land based cards out there. Just saying. JUST saying.

[Masamune]

LfTL is a good choice. How about Teferi's Response?

@Rock Lee: Is Force of Will enough? Would FoW protect yourself against destruction while we are playing all those combo-lands? :eyebrow:

[Sophocles]

I've been playing this deck on MTGO for the past week or so and I don't understand the need for Kozilek. I've taken him out and never had a situation arise where I wanted him.

[Rock Lee]

I've been playing this deck on MTGO for the past week or so and I don't understand the need for Kozilek. I've taken him out and never had a situation arise where I wanted him.

“Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance." - W. Clement Stone

[Sophocles]

Thanks for the complete non-response. Would it be too difficult to just explain what the purpose of Kozilek is?

[Rico Suave]

Kozilek's purpose is to draw cards, while also presenting a body that only costs 10 (8) instead of 15 (13).

[menace13]

Thanks for the complete non-response. Would it be too difficult to just explain what the purpose of Kozilek is?

What he means is; "you're right, the deck is bad and will never top 8 a GP."

[4eak]

Rock Lee gains +2 Trolling Skill

The difference in mana cost, as Rico Suave pointed out, is very important. Sometimes your ramp isn't built up enough to go straight for an Emrakul, but it is built up enough to play Kozilek (remember, we are tutoring these up a large portion of the time). Kozilek alone can win you the game, but even if he can't, he draws you enough cards to build the rest of the ramp for whatever will win you the game. The near uncounterability of his draw 4 is very nice. It can easily put you ahead against decks which are going for parity against you.

I've even used Kozilek just to dig for a necessary Repeal, for example.




peace,
4eak

[Rock Lee]

Rock Lee gains +2 Trolling Skill


As I have mentioned several times in the past, I don't repeat myself, nor do I give handouts to torpids. I already address Kozilek's role in my primer, but I just realized that the primer isn't actually linked in this thread. To hopefully sack any further repetition I will link them again here.

Turbo-Drazi Primer (http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22224)
1st appearance Major Event (2nd with ~80? players for 300$ prize) 3 weeks from this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19985-2nd-at-Juniper-Lotus-event-with-Turbo-Drazi-for-a-Mox-Feb-12-2011)
2nd appearance Major Event (1st with ~50 players for 340$ prize) 2 weeks from this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20057-1st-at-Dartmouth-MA-with-Turbo-Drazi-for-x4-Underground-Sea-Feb-20-2011)
3rd appearance Local Event (2nd with 24 players for 40$ prize) 1 week from this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20149-2nd-at-That-s-Entertainment-with-Turbo-Drazi)

[4eak]

@ The New and Improved Pi4meterftw


As I have mentioned several times in the past, I don't repeat myself

Lulz. That is an ironic and hilarious statement.


nor do I give handouts to torpids

Again, your statement is full of win. --- You continue to be a hypocrite.


[Links]

Having read the contents of those posts before, and now having re-read them, I must say that an answer to his question is far from complete and well-organized in any of these links. If you had decided to civilly and completely answer the question, you certainly would not have been repeating yourself.

By all means, feel free to ignore posts (even mine) to which you can't find it within yourself to respond constructively. I thought Sophocles' question was actually the perfect place to flesh out, in great detail and organization, exactly how and why one should play Kozilek. I'm sorry you missed the opportunity.



peace,
4eak

[death]

4eak is correct. You can win on the back of Kozilek alone (annihilator 4), sometimes forcing a removal spell. At 10cc he is easily castable by turn 4 than Emrakul.

Regarding Trinket Mage, the card I immediately thought of replacing are the TfKs. Ponder works very well with SDT as it lets you see 3 new cards if you opt to shuffle.

Another card I'd like to see tested is Intuition.

[GGoober]

Glad to see the Trinket Mage working out for ya :) But obviously, it involved exponential iterations to optimizing the deck within 1 week of playtesting to fully accept x4 TM into the MD avoiding cutting cards 1-1. Must be hard to cut TfK without changing the core of the deck, because the exponential iterations to optimization of decks must have taken quite some time to getting the deck to function with TM.

[Rock Lee]

Glad to see the Trinket Mage working out for ya :) But obviously, it involved exponential iterations to optimizing the deck within 1 week of playtesting to fully accept x4 TM into the MD avoiding cutting cards 1-1. Must be hard to cut TfK without changing the core of the deck, because the exponential iterations to optimization of decks must have taken quite some time to getting the deck to function with TM.

Mage was in my first few versions of the deck prior to Glimmerpost, but redundancy was more important than filtering at the time. The Italians also stressed I re-test TM with my current version and he ended up being stronger than originally tested. It wasn't actually until my Dartmouth event against my Top 8 Opponent Jeff (forget last name), an ex-Vintage player of renown, who was playing Trinket Mage himself and mentioned his merits in a vacuum that really tipped me towards reinvestigating the card.

With GP, Mage gives you additional time, as well as being immediately functional as a blocker. Between TM and GP, your aggro matchup went from poor to good, which lets you focus on Combo and Wastes for heavy hate.

Sofar as changing the core of the deck, I've gotten the basic function layout solid, and now I don't mind more easily shifting around cards solong as they adhere to those functions. This is by far the most difficult process of tuning a deck since it is intangible, and it seems easiest to just sub cards for cards blindly without realizing their inherent mulitudinous functions.

[Anusien]

I'm not impressed with Kozilek's card draw ability. If you're at Eldrazi mana, you probably don't want the random cards. If you want a cheaper Eldrazi, you probably want Ulamog because it gives you access to Humility removal. (In addition, of course, to all the random other stuff you care about.)

Also, since you point out the 2x Emrakul plan in the primer, it's worth pointing out that Tabernacle lets you go infinite with just one Emrakul and Tabernacle, so long as you don't pay the upkeep.

I find that Primeval Titan is a far superior man to Emrakul most of the time. It's significantly easier to cast and almost as lethal. If you can untap with Primeval Titan, you're pretty much going to cast Emrakul on that next turn, and even if you don't, you're gonna get significant advantage. Consequently, I am a little underwhelmed by Candelabra.

I am also not in love with Glacial Chasm. Like Zuran Orb, they're going to set you back significantly on lands, which is actually going to make it difficult to get ahead. I considered Exploration to go with this package, but you don't really want to play enough lands to justify Exploration (probably at least 4 more).

[Rock Lee]

I'm not impressed with Kozilek's card draw ability. If you're at Eldrazi mana, you probably don't want the random cards. If you want a cheaper Eldrazi, you probably want Ulamog because it gives you access to Humility removal. (In addition, of course, to all the random other stuff you care about.)

Also, since you point out the 2x Emrakul plan in the primer, it's worth pointing out that Tabernacle lets you go infinite with just one Emrakul and Tabernacle, so long as you don't pay the upkeep.

I find that Primeval Titan is a far superior man to Emrakul most of the time. It's significantly easier to cast and almost as lethal. If you can untap with Primeval Titan, you're pretty much going to cast Emrakul on that next turn, and even if you don't, you're gonna get significant advantage. Consequently, I am a little underwhelmed by Candelabra.

I am also not in love with Glacial Chasm. Like Zuran Orb, they're going to set you back significantly on lands, which is actually going to make it difficult to get ahead. I considered Exploration to go with this package, but you don't really want to play enough lands to justify Exploration (probably at least 4 more).

This could easily be differences in play style, but I tutor Kozilek far more often than I tutor Emrakul. If I have to do a blind tutor with 13 mana eot, I won't always get emrakul. It entirely depends on what my opponent is playing, what removal they have, and what their responses could be. Kozilek will always move the game in your favor significantly, and if you draw candelabras, you can often easily chain into Emrakul on the same turn.

Humility isn't a problem at all. You still go infinite with Humility with 2 Eldrazis at which point it doesn't matter. You also run 6+ removal spells for Humility alone and often 4 random cards will show you one removal spell at least, not to mention you can just chump block with Kozilek and keep drawing. I've tested with both 1 Emrakul/Tabernacle versus 2 Emrkaul for infinite turns, and the 1 Emrakul/Tabernacle plan can barely even be considered since it is not easy to setup at all. The infinite plan is only when you're just barely able to eek out Emrakul but it won't win you the game.

Titan is amazing, but you run a small spell protection package so its really just a giant "hit me" sign. He's good for drawing counters and removal, and stabilizing the game against Rule of Fire decks, but I would never call him superior to Emrakul. Per Casting Cost Emrakul is by far the best creature ever printed with the possible exception of Goblin Welder or Mogg Fanatic back in combat stacking days.

Glacial Chasm is also only there as an oh-shit button. Its not supposed to be a turn 2 drop at all. Its there simply because I don't like losing to ridiculous Goblin/Merfolk/Affinity draws and burn decks or Zoo that packs Price of Progress. As a one-of you can't get much more "I can't die" protection than Glacial Chasm. In games where I do have to play or Crop Rotate Chasm into play on turn 2-3, I make sure I have Glimmerposts and Vesuvas to maintain me at 2-3 cumulative upkeep tops, and the goal entirely becomes find Primeval Titan.

[Masamune]

I faced Rock Lee in MWS and I should say: He plays very well and he beat me with this deck a couple of times.
I'm thinking about build it soon.
Anyone knows how I'd find cheap Candelabras to buy? :rolleyes:

[android]

Right now, $70 is cheap. There was only one auction on Ebay last I checked.

[AncientSion]

I would like to see more youtube videos of these, either in MWS or MTGO

[Rico Suave]

I'm not impressed with Kozilek's card draw ability. If you're at Eldrazi mana, you probably don't want the random cards. If you want a cheaper Eldrazi, you probably want Ulamog because it gives you access to Humility removal. (In addition, of course, to all the random other stuff you care about.)

Actually, you do want random cards.

The main reason to go for a 10 drop Eldrazi is because 15 for Emrakul is not an option. In these instances Kozilek will provide the "random cards" - such as mana sources - necessary to get Emrakul online, while Ulamog will not. If your opponent has something as simple as a Plow, you'd much rather cast Kozilek (and have a plan for the next turn) as opposed to Ulamog which can be answered and then you're left high and dry with not enough mana or business spells in hand to do anything consequential.

[Anusien]

I went up to 4 Primeval Titan, so when I want a big giant monster, I can cast one early or easily. Turn 4 Primeval Titan makes it pretty damn easy to make a turn 5 Emrakul, surpassing the need for Ulamog altogether.

[GGoober]

I think the main reason for Kozilek is even if he's countered, you get some gain, at the heavy 10 mana investment. Sure Titan is 6 mana (4 cheaper) but when countered, you net nothing.

However, if Titan isn't countered, I think the 2 lands tutored out at the 6 mana game phase is quite huge. Titan comes out earlier, grabs glimmerposts immediately against aggro, on a big body. And if he does swing again, you are very likely to cast an Eldrazi the next turn. Titan fetching Cloudposts/Glimmerposts/Tabernacle/Eye of Ugin just seems about ready to set up anything. Once again, I think the only drawback to Titan is not giving anything when countered while Kozilek gives you 4 cards to continue even if countered, but I can imagine that if they countered a Titan, means that there's one less counter right?! And this deck should just own the crap out of control anyway. Titan seems quite strong against aggro on the whole compared to Kozilek. Rock, did you test out 4 Titans at one point or missed this testing phase?

[4eak]

Going to 4 Titan hasn't been terrible. I'm not sure if it is the right call. There aren't many games where he resolves and I lose. He is supremely undercosted. He is a sick ramp-builder. I am pretty sure he is not win-more. I didn't remove Kozilek for Titan though. I've actually chosen to remove the Crop Rotations to try the Titans.


peace,
4eak

[Rock Lee]

Rock, did you test out 4 Titans at one point or missed this testing phase?

I did when I originally added Titan to the deck. I tested originally with 4, since I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. Down to 3, then 2 where I am now.

The problems with high Titan count, is that you need a strong setup to make it work. You suffer tremendously under land pressure, where the deck is already weak. A simple wasteland on Post sets you back 2-3 turns instead of 1-2, not to mention that you're significantly more reliant on Candelabra.

Additionally as Rico pointed out, you are also much more vulnerable to simple counterspells. This is why I mentioned that Anusien likely just has a different playstyle than I do. I mentioned that when I play the deck I play to stall. I play it like a control deck that lets spells resolve, but that has the upmost amount of inevitability. If you wanted to play the deck much more combo-centric style that beat quicker decks but died to counterspells then you could easily go to 4 candelabras and 4 Titans. This would be stronger against aggro matchups, but still wouldn't beat combo. And if you are in a meta with heavy aggro and combo then this deck is an extremely poor choice. Something like Team America would be a much stronger choice.

TLDR: A 4x Titan build is high risk high reward, something this deck doesn't need in a meta where it will be strong.

As with any combo deck, and this deck is combo/control, you can usually build the entire deck functionally through a pyramid type layout. Lots of Mana/Hand Fixing, medium amounts of combo Setup or removal, and then a small amount of finishers. 4 Titan already makes that finisher portion extremely top-heavy, and only makes the deck easier to collapse with small amounts of disruption.

All that being said, If you still anticipate aggro being an issue, 3 titan is possible. 4 just seems very overkill and deck warping.

[Rico Suave]

One of the big reasons I enjoy Kozilek is because it allows the deck to use its Expedition Map and/or Crop Rotation to find an Eye of Ugin with only ~10 mana available. This opens up a wide array of plays that are not otherwise available unless a colorless creature costing ~10 is present somewhere in the deck. As such a single copy of Kozilek being in the deck provides a lot of value to each of those land tutors, as well as Trinket Mage which can find Map.

This isn't to say that the count of Primeval Titan and Eldrazi are mutually exclusive; instead I feel a card like Kozilek serves a unique function that a Titan cannot fulfill due to the fact Eye cannot tutor it up.

[AncientSion]

Had anyone considered Deserted Temple ?

[Rock Lee]

Had anyone considered Deserted Temple ?

Its honestly debatable as a singleton, since it lets you win without candelabra, but also synergizes with candelabra. Its too early before my next event to do testing with it, but I certainly will in the next week.

[menace13]

Lot of people have started to test the deck online. I am seeing Magus of the Candle, Sylvan Scrying, Explore, Tooth and Nail and Overgrown Battlement in sb. One other that seemed good was Show and Tell plan, although I did not get to count how many Emrakul were there.

[Sims]

Lot of people have started to test the deck online. I am seeing Magus of the Candle, Sylvan Scrying, Explore, Tooth and Nail and Overgrown Battlement in sb. One other that seemed good was Show and Tell plan, although I did not get to count how many Emrakul were there.

I noticed that, I've played it twice in the 2's Queue's so far (non-gold) on MTGO. I've got to admit that it's a much stronger deck than I originally thought it would be. I'm going to see if I can test the deck, maybe just proxy out the Candelabra's IRL (i know i could borrow them, but for testing, no need to hit the barns)

[Masamune]

@Rock Lee
I wish you good luck my friend...
I'm waiting anxiously your report after you kicked all those opp asses with hard cast eldrazis =D
Your list and your skills seen pretty solid IMO. It was nice to have met you in MWS coincidentally

[Rock Lee]

@Rock Lee
I wish you good luck my friend...
I'm waiting anxiously your report after you kicked all those opp asses with hard cast eldrazis =D
Your list and your skills seen pretty solid IMO. It was nice to have met you in MWS coincidentally

Thank you!

If you lurk around MWS enough you'll find me for sure. I consider MWS testing the best testing. You can two-fisted test the decks to beat till you're blue in the face, but you can't quantify the random element you'll find online, which will also appear at events. That's what I care about since it covers an entire conceptional deck category most people just dismiss as fringe and therefore nonrepresentative.This is why I laugh so much when people complain about rogue decks filling up a meta. Legacy is a format of rogues decks with a very wide foundation. Assuming that anything isn't rogue is your first sign of weakness. Online training gives good inspirations toward neauvou innovation.

[median]

I would seriously consider scapeshift over titan. if you have four mana to spend on a titan that could be four cloud posts coming out with scapeshift.

[Spartacvs]

Is Tooth an Nail for Emrakul and Inner-Flame Accolyte worth exploring? 9 mana only two needs to be green and boseiju-able I like this deck a lot btw! Grats on your performance.

[Michael Keller]

Thank you!

If you lurk around MWS enough you'll find me for sure. I consider MWS testing the best testing. You can two-fisted test the decks to beat till you're blue in the face, but you can't quantify the random element you'll find online, which will also appear at events. That's what I care about since it covers an entire conceptional deck category most people just dismiss as fringe and therefore nonrepresentative.This is why I laugh so much when people complain about rogue decks filling up a meta. Legacy is a format of rogues decks with a very wide foundation. Assuming that anything isn't rogue is your first sign of weakness. Online training gives good inspirations toward neauvou innovation.

You're also predicating your testing against weaker, incompetent players who make an uncountable number of play mistakes on that software. To justify your testing against that kind of element doesn't speak volumes about your match-ups, both weak and strong. There really is no need to test against players and decks like that because if your deck is already developed enough to the point of a competitive seriousness, you should already have no trouble in dismissing randomness with a strong foundation.

It's like shooting massive targets from four feet away - sure you'll blast a bull's eye each time, but how many times do you really need to keep practicing from that distance with those kind of targets? Not a good idea. An option? Sure. But MWS testing is by far the weakest way to gauge the power-level of a deck you're developing towards playing in a large event with competent opponents capable of playing much better and tighter than a fourteen year-old trying Soldiers out.

I have a feeling you're falsely benefiting from weaker competition in your testing without understanding that "dumbing" down your play-skill to abyssal levels isn't going to benefit the future of this archetype or the players that enjoy the deck alike.

[Masamune]

I would seriously consider scapeshift over titan. if you have four mana to spend on a titan that could be four cloud posts coming out with scapeshift.

Titan can put lands adding to lands that already you have, furthermore he can swing with its 6/6 trample body making fetch more lands (of course when opp haven't any removal)


Is Tooth an Nail for Emrakul and Inner-Flame Accolyte worth exploring? 9 mana only two needs to be green and boseiju-able I like this deck a lot btw! Grats on your performance.

1) If you open hand is Inner-Flame you'll wish throw it in the wall...
2) IMO Tooth Nail sucks... the main idea of this deck is just cast eldrazis either with cloudposts or search it with Eye of Ugin...

[Masamune]

........

I have not enogh money to spent in MTGO to increase skills with competitive tournaments or something like that; about your concern, wich makes MWS left in the corner away, this is our option nowadays, or even Cockatrice. We would face professional players around MWS (wich is very hard to find and polite isn't the main factor there unfortunately) but many times we might fight solitary games making tests against yourself with different decks and strategies. I did this and I could say: isn't so bad but it stands to reason I'd rather MTG (no need to explain lol).

[Michael Keller]

I have not enogh money to spent in MTGO to increase skills with competitive tournaments or something like that; about your concern, wich makes MWS left in the corner away, this is our option nowadays, or even Cockatrice. We would face professional players around MWS (wich is very hard to find and polite isn't the main factor there unfortunately) but many times we might fight solitary games making tests against yourself with different decks and strategies. I did this and I could say: isn't so bad but it stands to reason I'd rather MTG (no need to explain lol).

If you don't have enough money to spend on MTGO, what makes you think you can afford a set of Candelabras to create this deck anyhow? It seems like flawed logic, and even though you're using these programs as a platform for testing (which is fine for you if it works), I don't see how you're justifying playing against horrible competition and winning over playing against good players and getting crushed. The only way to learn and get better is to play against people better than you. Cockatrice or not.

You're also using the word "we" as if everyone else shares your sentiment. You've basically summed this entire thing up by expressing how rude and how hard it is to find competent, good players on MWS, yet people somehow continue to resort to it as if it were an outstanding way to test a deck out - which in most cases it isn't.

Besides, this was in regards to Lee's comment that he believes MWS is the best way to test a deck out, which with all due respect I believe to be one hundred-eighty degrees from the truth. Test with good players in real life. Make proxies. Set up meetings with players online. But don't assume that Workstation is going to solve all of your issues, because rest assured if you cannot afford the cards in real life, you certainly wouldn't be able to online where it can be more expensive and you will ultimately have nothing to show for it when you decide to stop playing.

[median]

Titan can put lands adding to lands that already you have, furthermore he can swing with its 6/6 trample body making fetch more lands (of course when opp haven't any removal)

I'm saying with scape shift you don't need any more lands than the four you have. 4 cloud posts will give you 16 mana which can cast any creature in the deck. the only time that you need want a 5'th is if you need an eye. I think the ability to getmore than 2 lands from your deck into play makes scapeshift better.

[Masamune]

If you don't have enough money to spend on MTGO, what makes you think you can afford a set of Candelabras to create this deck anyhow
Nothing to do with something


It seems like flawed logic, and even though you're using these programs as a platform for testing (which is fine for you if it works)
So stop to chew out


The only way to learn and get better is to play against people better than you
Agreed


Cockatrice or not
Cockatrice IMO and MWS both sucks, but I repeat: I have no options. If I spent money in MTGO I'll not have my Candelabras... did u catch this?


You're also using the word "we" as if everyone else shares your sentiment
It's your viewponit...wherever


Test with good players in real life. Make proxies
Not everybody has pleasure to play entire evening. Good to see the MTG softwares anytime. I don't wanna piss my friends off alltime

I just like to play magic with I have in hands. And yes, I win tournaments just playing in MWS.

[Anusien]

I did when I originally added Titan to the deck. I tested originally with 4, since I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. Down to 3, then 2 where I am now.

The problems with high Titan count, is that you need a strong setup to make it work. You suffer tremendously under land pressure, where the deck is already weak. A simple wasteland on Post sets you back 2-3 turns instead of 1-2, not to mention that you're significantly more reliant on Candelabra.
You have this backward. The thing about Titan is it increases your reliance on colored mana, not colorless mana. It's significantly easier to cast a Titan without Candelabra and without a critical mass of Cloudposts. If you are worried about Merfolk going after your Tropical Islands, that's when you can be afraid of Titan.

By the way, I think the proper cut for Titan is not Crop Rotation or Kozilek, but All Is Dust.

[GGoober]

I think cutting All is Dust is a bad move (my opinion) because All is Dust is not just a defensive card, but an offensive card for the deck. Cutting All is Dust for Titan slots based on the logic that Titan can fetch out anti-aggro lands or be a 6/6 body to block an offensive force assumes that Titan can survive to block an assault.

All is Dust is the single card that I feel makes this deck good against almost all of the aggro-decks out there, and the random Enchantress and other problematic decks.

I think 3 Titan is the best configuration for the deck (4 is too many i.e. you don't want to see a Titan before turns 3, sure you can cast it turn 4, but most of the time, those turns are spent on controlling and being on the defensive and digging. Also, turn 4 Titan is possible, but there's quite a ton of CiPT lands in the deck that this has to be taken into account).

I do feel that 3-4 Titan is stronger than just 2, because Titan is a guaranteed way to house aggro fetching glimmerpost/Tabernacle/Maze (mostly glimmerpost) and have a 6/6 body (probably going to be removed) on the defense before winning next turn. Probably drop down to 1 Kozilek and up to the 3rd Titan? That way, Titan will always find Eye of Ugin that grabs Kozilek, while having the ability to tutor any land that you need at that time.

[Masamune]

....

I agree :D share your list here please :)

[Masamune]

BTW... had anyone considered also Ancient Stirrings and Soothsaying?

[ScatmanX]

BTW... had anyone considered also Ancient Stirrings and Soothsaying?
I think they're going to try it right after Fog Bank.

[AncientSion]

I think they're going to try it right after Fog Bank.

Is that you trying to be funny ?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Is that you trying to be funny ?

He absolutely isn't. Fog Bank will break this deck's aggro matchup wide open - the card is broken.

[Anusien]

There is a lot in this list I am still testing, but I wanted to get the thread back on topic:

// Lands
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Riftstone Portal

// Creatures
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Trinket Mage
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

// Spells
4 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Force of Will
3 Compulsive Research
4 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
4 Brainstorm

Yes, I have only 1 Candelabra. It's not all that impressive if you don't have multiple Locuses, and if you do, you're most of the way to casting an Eldrazi anyway. Its best use is untapping lands that Primeval Titan brings into the battlefield.

Compulsive Research I am not in love with, nor Riftstone Portal.

The three biggest problems so far:
A) Not enough blue spells for FoW.
B) You often get your hand clogged with lands and Map doesn't make this any better.
C) Getting GG can be tough.

[Masamune]

My current list wich I'm testing is following:

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ROE] Eldrazi Temple
1 [ZEN] Island

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [M11] Primeval Titan

// Spells
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ROE] All Is Dust
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [IN] Teferi's Response
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 [MM] Energy Flux
SB: 2 [UD] Compost


1) The biggest problem is: WASTELANDS. Stifle can do Tempo strategy, slow down and protect me against wastes. Stifle effects should be more than I did, actually I started to run Teferi's response instead, but two mana in its CC piss me of
2) No Trinket Mage. IMO he's slow, I never have enough mana to dig, play and untap...whereaver...
3) 4x Rotations. Sinkholes, Vindicates, Wastes.... thoughts?
4) Maybe 2~3 Titans. But I don't find a perfect slot to slip it
5) I'm thinking not run 3~4 draw effects. We need to play lands faster every turn until reach big robots and anihilate opp. Search effects + sensei IMO is enough.
6) My list follows the delay idea. Stifle, FoW and All is Dust holding anytime and creating the correct time to play our Eldrazis
7) I added Compost in my SB because black Gate decks screw me up too much. Facing then I can consider a really bad match. Confidants and discard effects makes me cry. Just much more fast than I thought (remembering that All is Dust is one of the single cards that would destroy anything but generally It goes to grave before, and opp aready drew too many cards. I mean gg).

Any comments are welcome

[AncientSion]

If you are green for Titan anyway, why not run explore if you want to ramp faster ? Should be good with top.

[Rock Lee]

My current list wich I'm testing is following:
4 [SC] Stifle

This is honestly worth investigating. My gut says it won't be superior to the build I've settled on, but its certainly worth looking at. If you're playing control-heavy already, this is of the right vein, while buying you turns against dicy matchups already. Doesn't help much against Combo, moderately against lands assuming no Chalice @ 1, and its the bees knee's against Aggro.

[Masamune]

Doesn't help much against Combo

Stifle can stop a fuckin LED :D

[Masamune]

If you are green for Titan anyway, why not run explore if you want to ramp faster ? Should be good with top.

No slots I guess :(

[Admiral_Arzar]

Stifle can stop a fuckin LED :D

Stifle can't target mana abilities bro.

[Rock Lee]

If you are green for Titan anyway, why not run explore if you want to ramp faster ? Should be good with top.

I mentioned this briefly, but to clarify. The turboland, explore, exploration, horn of greed, (insert bad card here), plan works fine against aggro, but you've got no chance at all against combo or control.

Ray Robillard examined the Explore/Exploration route in tandemn with my original control builds and it ended up being half a turn faster, but lost to fast aggro hands, all combo hands, and the majority of control. This is no discredit to Ray, we both agreed that our particular builds did what they aspired to well, this just shows that the turboland route, while fun is with the current cardpool not as competitive as it needs to be.

My first instinct would be stifle in Repeal's spot as I use repeal for similar functions "lackey, vial" it would buy you turns against fetches/wastes, but you couldn't hit things like hierarch/top/candle. As I say, my gut says that repeal is superior, but I've always been a stickler for card advantage cards even if they are slower. I'll test it =D

::EDIT:: that testing didn't take long. No removal is awkard as hell. You actually scoop to things like Ensnaring Bridge. Additionally the deck doesn't play at the speed of Stifle, being able to filter your hand is pivotal for any situational counter. Stifle doesn't do anything while you're tapped out, which you are constantly with this deck, hence why the entire removal package is after-the-fact. Good luck to those who try to make it work though.

[Masamune]

Stifle can't target mana abilities bro.

True... forget it LOL


....

Just cast Repeal bouncing Bridges. I could search and draw FoWs and/ or Repeals with Kozilek traping a single attack
Neither Explorations strategies nor blue-based-countermagic core can stop combos, I know its hard but in this current bad MU I guess the only optin is run FoWs and Mindbreaks.


Stifle doesn't do anything while you're tapped out
Play Fetch and take Tropical with Stile in your hand. The concept is to pretend that's allright. Opp will sac in first turn sometimes. Stifle it and go on. If opp plays a Fetch that's ok too. Stifle will give some time.

BTW... I like this deck. I really love it because it might screw Jace-controls, CounterTops, Enchantresses and Sneak'n'Show decks. I hate face these decks in a tounament.

[Fatal]

Here is diffrent version, It's very stable and have a lot of synergies.


//31 lands
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Maze of Ith
3 Tolaria West

//8 instants
2 Crop Rotation
4 Stifle
2 Intuition

//6 enchantments
3 Exploration
3 Standstill

//5 creatures
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Primeval Titan

//4 sorcery
3 All Is Dust
1 Life from the Loam

//6 artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Expedition Map


This list looks weird but here is resoning of chosing cards:

31 land count is very important with exploration and moxes start is explosive and gives you huge advantage

Maze of Ith as stopper, Tolaria West as tutor (uncounterable and can be used under standstill, also can be cycle with loam), academy ruins as pernament lock with engineered explosives and expedition map as tutor.

Wastelands are very good with stifles plan to slow down a lot opponent.

Instants:
Crop Rotation as aditional tutor and waste response and big enabler - Intuition could be more.. stifles obv.

Enchantments:
Exploration as boost speed with loam/waste lock and more explosive start

Standstills are great draw engine very good here to stall the game to make mana resource enough to kill.

Creatures are without changes.

Artifacts:
As metion above Mox Diamonds to boost and tutor + removal.

Sorceries:
Life from the Loam engine and All is Dust as board cleaner.

Life from the Loam is weird here, sometimes you dredge to Emrakul/Kozilek but this doesn't stop you its not offten and after you suffle all cards you still have loam on hand so it doesn't matter, also it helps when some of your important thing died (for example Eye of Ugin).

Comments, actually only MD working on side.

[RexFTW]

why dont you try trinispheres and chalice of the voids against combo....

[TheSleeper]

why dont you try trinispheres and chalice of the voids against combo....

Unless you drop 3Sphere turn 1 its not so hot, and this deck can't even reliably drop it turn 2..

[menace13]

13th Place at SCG 5K. His deck cut FoWs and added 3 Moment's Peace and 4 Show and Tell.
I think this should be out of the developmental section.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37124

[baghdadbob]

I have been playtesting the crap out of this deck trying out all sorts of splashes. At first I was like wow I totally broke this deck with braid of fire, but then quickly realized that mana pools empty after every phase... Yeah I know embarrassing mistake. I must say though that Burgeoning is absolutely bonkers in this deck with all of the citpt lands.

tldr version

Burgeoning is the f'ing nuts in this deck.

[Masamune]

I have been playtesting the crap out of this deck trying out all sorts of splashes. At first I was like wow I totally broke this deck with braid of fire, but then quickly realized that mana pools empty after every phase... Yeah I know embarrassing mistake. I must say though that Burgeoning is absolutely bonkers in this deck with all of the citpt lands.

tldr version

Burgeoning is the f'ing nuts in this deck.

IMO Exploration is much better

[moseby]

Why not just play exploration? You get to drop and use lands on your turn. Burgeoning allows your opponent to slow roll their land drops, which is fine for crap like zoo and fish.

[baghdadbob]

Yeah I totally forgot about exploration... this is my current list.

// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [JGC] Wooded Foothills
5 [UG] Forest
1 [TE] Wasteland
4 [R] Savannah
2 [6E] Plains (3)
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [M11] Primeval Titan

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ROE] All Is Dust
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [US] Exploration
1 [SH] Burgeoning
2 [CFX] Martial Coup
1 [MPR] Harrow

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WL] Serenity
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

The only spots i'm unsure about are the 1 burgeoning and the 1 harrow feel free to make suggestions for these 2 spots.

[moseby]

This is the probable list I will be running this weekend for a library. I was also currious what thoughts people had about the list from SGC; http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37124 .

4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 misty rainforest
3 tropical island
1 flooded strand
1 island
1 forest
1 eye of ugin

4 exploration
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 trinket mage
2 Aids
3 moment's peace
4 expidition map
4 sensei's divining top
3 crop rotation
3 caldelabra of tawnos
1 pithing needle
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Primeval titan

side board
3 pithing needle
1 bojuka bog
4 mindbreak trap
1 tormod crypt
1 relic of progenitus
3 krosan grips
1 energy flux
1 Tabernacle (how could I forget this)

A couple of comments; I have not been able to test this list, only fish bowl. The explorations if it lands will speed the deck up about 1 turn for sure. You will also notice the lack of FOW's, that is strictly due to the lack of blue cards in the deck. One other point is that is somewhat feels like a compromise with the changes I have made. AIDs has been a disappointment as I see way too many ensnaring bridges, and crucibles to recur wastelands. and Ulamog has been a star as a fixall for those problems.

Please post any constructive criticism.

[Rock Lee]

Just won my 3 Round Providence GP bye with Turbo-Drazi. I also know two other pilots of the deck who have also won 3 round bye's to GP Providence.

This List (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20505-GPT-Win-Turbo-Drazi-4-9-Connecticon) Delivers if you play it well. I suggest it to others as always.

[moseby]

I ran the steckley list, and went 2-2 lost to U/W control that packs wastes + dustbowl, and crucible (0-2, and rock (1-2). The control deck countered everything relevant, and wasted me to hell, the game I won against rock was because he mulled 5 and didn't start the game with a T1 thoughtsieze, T2 hymn, like he did G2, and G3.

Also Gaddok Teag is the nuts against this.

[Rock Lee]

I ran the steckley list, and went 2-2 lost to U/W control that packs wastes + dustbowl, and crucible (0-2, and rock (1-2). The control deck countered everything relevant, and wasted me to hell, the game I won against rock was because he mulled 5 and didn't start the game with a T1 thoughtsieze, T2 hymn, like he did G2, and G3.

Also Gaddok Teag is the nuts against this.

Teeg is the reason you pack mind harness in the sb. Basically teeg alone. Reliquary to a lesser degree, but teeg is a beating. It is worth noting that Teeg doesn't stop you from winning or accelerating at all, and only stops your removal, so if you keep a fast hand Teeg does nothing.

I saw steckley's list, and while it would stomp the bejesus out of aggro, you already have a good aggro game, and your major issues are wasteland land recursion and heavy disruption ala rock/maverick/junk. Forces and brainstorms are necessary to win those battles so I can understand you feeling rather blown out by Dust Bowl and Rock. There are many possible variations to "cast Emrakul.dec" and steckley went with a combo/control version instead of what I have been championing, which is more along the lines of pure control.

[MeddlingMageGR]

Im very exciting about this deck. But sometimes I find myself difficult to develop it on the board quickly. The main purpose of this deck is to gather as many mana as we can, and in the right moment to cast our friend Emrakul.
I have some thoughts that I would like to share with you.
First of all Primeval Titan is so much powerfull. Titan gives my life, mana, and Eye of Ugin. But 6 mana is difficult to find, especially the 2 G. Many times we “forget” or we didn’t want, to cast a Tropical Island or a Forest, because of Cloudpost and Glimmerpost. Coloreless mana is our “defence” against any deck, thanks to All is Dust
Fast mana is Alpha and Omega in this deck, so I add 3 Explorations (working excellent with Expedition Map) and 3 Show and Tell. Show and Tells is not only for Emrakul.. but primary for Titan. He gives me lands, lands gives me mana, mana brings Emrakul into life.

My opinion is to increase the number of Titans to 3, cutting down Kozilek. 4 random cards are not compared with 2+2 land cards of our choise.

And something else :
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale + Eye of Ugin = infinite turns with Emrakul. (you don’t pay 1, Emrakul dies and goes back to Library, and then find it again with Ugin and you know the rest…)
But…
You need 7 + 13 mana to do this.

I was thinking about adding 1 Karakas that does the same job, cheaper (40$) and faster (13 mana only with Ugin). And cutting down Bojuka Bog which is definitely a sideboard card against some boring decks with Knight Of The Reliquary , Tarmogoyf, and Dredge. Besides that we don’t use Black mana in this deck…

[J.V.]

Teeg is the reason you pack mind harness in the sb. Basically teeg alone. Reliquary to a lesser degree, but teeg is a beating. It is worth noting that Teeg doesn't stop you from winning or accelerating at all, and only stops your removal, so if you keep a fast hand Teeg does nothing.


But Mind Harness doesn't answer Teeg at all... it just gives you a 2/2. I mean I guess you can then block with it to kill it, but harnessing it just ties up mana, you still can't cast 5's or X's. Karakas from the board seems much better.

Jer On another note I've been try Crucible/Loam out of the board to battle wasteland decks, any thoughts?

[Rock Lee]

Im very exciting about this deck. But sometimes I find myself difficult to develop it on the board quickly. The main purpose of this deck is to gather as many mana as we can, and in the right moment to cast our friend Emrakul.
I have some thoughts that I would like to share with you.
First of all Primeval Titan is so much powerfull. Titan gives my life, mana, and Eye of Ugin. But 6 mana is difficult to find, especially the 2 G. Many times we “forget” or we didn’t want, to cast a Tropical Island or a Forest, because of Cloudpost and Glimmerpost. Coloreless mana is our “defence” against any deck, thanks to All is Dust
Fast mana is Alpha and Omega in this deck, so I add 3 Explorations (working excellent with Expedition Map) and 3 Show and Tell. Show and Tells is not only for Emrakul.. but primary for Titan. He gives me lands, lands gives me mana, mana brings Emrakul into life.

My opinion is to increase the number of Titans to 3, cutting down Kozilek. 4 random cards are not compared with 2+2 land cards of our choise.

And something else :
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale + Eye of Ugin = infinite turns with Emrakul. (you don’t pay 1, Emrakul dies and goes back to Library, and then find it again with Ugin and you know the rest…)
But…
You need 7 + 13 mana to do this.

I was thinking about adding 1 Karakas that does the same job, cheaper (40$) and faster (13 mana only with Ugin). And cutting down Bojuka Bog which is definitely a sideboard card against some boring decks with Knight Of The Reliquary , Tarmogoyf, and Dredge. Besides that we don’t use Black mana in this deck…

I've mentioned in this thread that exploration turbo-land type builds are simply another archtype of a similar manabase. Anusien hinted at a pure comboy version of this deck and if you wanted to take that route I would suggest it. I think it is significantly weaker personally, as the only way of combating an inherent 0 mana on turn 1 is with sweepers and massive card advantage netting later on, which lends itself significantly more to a control tempo. I'm not saying a combo build can't work, but I am saying in my own testing I found it to be less consistent.

Your second note about Show and Tell I have been giving recent thought to, and while I agree that Titan is by FAR your best show target, I don't think I would ever cut Kozilek. People who want to cut Kozilek blow my mind. I have issues wrapping my head around it. In my testing, he is more often tutored than Emrakul.

Karakas is interesting, but I think way too cute. The difference between 15 mana and 20 in this deck is miniscule.


But Mind Harness doesn't answer Teeg at all... it just gives you a 2/2. I mean I guess you can then block with it to kill it, but harnessing it just ties up mana, you still can't cast 5's or X's. Karakas from the board seems much better.

Jer On another note I've been try Crucible/Loam out of the board to battle wasteland decks, any thoughts?

I don't know a single deck that runs teeg that doesn't need to attack to win and with tabernacle you can kill the teeg. See above for karakas thoughts.

I tested crucible/loam both against wasteland pressure and they were slow. dreadfully slow. The decks I have major issue with this deck are not wasteland recursion somuch as tempo combined with wasteland recursion. examples: They spend 4 turns wasting you and then attack with a 12/12 reliquary that needs answering in 1 turn while you've on 2 lands, anything with vial ticking and multiple wastes. Tempo Thresh ala Team America/Junk. The stacks/42lands/aggro loams out there don't give me issue at all since they focus wholeheartedly on recursion I can devote my efforts to beating that instead of worrying about a 5/6 goyf whomping me.

When I tested against these archtypes I would die just as I was stabilizing with loam/crucible. So the card worked as intended, but it wasn't what I needed as a deck. I've waffled alot (http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html) between show and tell in the SB versus mind harnesses and I'm still not certain what is best since I run less filter than a normal Show and Tell deck, less targets and primarily only want to show in primeval titans, which only cost 3 more.


I also realize I didn't summarize my thoughts on brainstorm/trinketmage/Thirst/ponder that I have made changes and claims to in the past, so here's my thoughts on it from my most recent tournament report. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20505-GPT-Win-Turbo-Drazi-4-9-Connecticon)


I suppose I didn't compile my list of updates. But to put it briefly, there are two major filtering card slots in the deck with 4 contenders. Trinket Mage, Thirst for Knowledge, Ponder, and Brainstorm.

I started with TFK/Ponder because it was the most logical in my mind. Trinket Mage and TFK are too bulky to give you early answers, and TFK let you play around blue significantly better, which I viewed as the most prominent threat to the deck. I found that the deck punches Blue in the face significantly easier than other decks, so it didn't need TFK, and explored Trinket Mage at the time lists were showing up online piloted by PTPaul, a friend.

After looking at Trinket mage I realized it was a significantly better draw later in the game and ran the deck with Trinket Mage/Ponder for awhile. While this was strong, it didn't deal well with overflow and poor selection the way you could just power through with TFK. Enter Brainstorm. Brainstorm abuses your added shuffle affects even more and effectively smoothing out the worrysome early concerns while synergizing with the later shuffle affects.

TLDR: When I commented on it, the deck was X & Ponder, and ponder doesn't play well with Trinket Mage.

[MeddlingMageGR]

Anusien hinted at a pure comboy version of this deck and if you wanted to take that route I would suggest it.

You take many riskes playing this version... and with no backup at all. Besides the Emrakul who is the finisher, the 2nd most valuable card in this deck is Eye of Ugin and the 3rd most valuable Expedition map. Generally the lands. And you have no way to protect them. THis deck stands on the mana base which must be quick, and very productive!!! And its not. (I dont mension the possibility to open 4 Cloudposts... ) Because everybody plays Wastelands.
Besides that you have no defence for creatures except for 1-2-3 lives from Glimmerposts, and 7cc All is Dust... Goblins and Zoo will rock you.

I will try 4 Exploration and 4 Crucible of Worlds

[BiNiaRiS]

anyone have thoughts on 4 candelabra vs 3? Most decks I see running 3 but where is the logic behind this over 4?

Is it just the fact that we are running trinket mage as a tutor?

[Rock Lee]

anyone have thoughts on 4 candelabra vs 3? Most decks I see running 3 but where is the logic behind this over 4?

Is it just the fact that we are running trinket mage as a tutor?

I know a few playtests who stand by 4 candelabras, but those playtesters often prefer to play very aggressively. If you feel aggro is stronger in your meta then I would consider MD'ing 4 All is Dust and 4 Candelabra. Granted, if Aggro is in your meta this is probably not the best deck choice.

Candelabra alone does nothing, and you usually only need it once you've ramped upto 3 land drops. So looking at multiples of a card and saying "This is useful in 2 turns" in an opening hand is generallly poor.

[MeddlingMageGR]

after many many playtests, I realized that Exploration and Crucible of Worlds is not needed. The only addition I make, is to increase the number of Sensei's Divite Top, Repeal, and Crop Rotation το 4. And play 3 Trinket Mage.

[cb4]

Rock,
Your latest list is great. Trinket mages are amazing. Maindeck bog has won me games. I would love the fourth repeal. I may go to 4 repeal and 3 brainstorm like you mentioned but the deck is running so well for me I don't want to mess with it. Do you think NPH brings anything to the table for turbodrazi?

[Rock Lee]

Rock,
Your latest list is great. Trinket images are amazing. Maindeck bog has won me games. I would love the fourth repeal. I may go to 4 repeal and 3 brainstorm like you mentioned but the deck is running so well for me I don't want to mess with it. Do you think NPH brings anything to the table for turbodrazi?

I think NPH doesn't bring anything overwhelmingly strong to Turbo-Eldrazi, but given meta shifts it might. The Green Vindicate could be pivotal for dealing with bob, which the deck currently has no good answers for. The deck sports a large array of CMC 1s and some of them require finesse to not lose card advantage against, so upping the SDT count and possibly even running Mental Misstep will all be dependent on how much MM is run itself. The Metagame could easily find itself in the situation it was a few years back when threshold was running counterbalance strictly because counterbalance was being run in other decks, but now with Mental Misstep. The deck doesn't lose to cmc 1 spells right now, but if MM permeates the meta enough, TurboEldrazi will have to run it in some form.

Other outlier options are the new Karn, which is a great card in itself, but I would only consider in the All is dust spot, and solong as the meta continues to have a tempo oriented presence, I would be highly hesitant to start subbing them. If the meta moved towards control and back to basics/Blood Moon, I would give the card more notice. That being said I'll probably pick up a playset of all these cards mentioned prices withstanding.

Surgical Extraction is an extremely interesting wasteland answer, and one that the deck doesn't run in excess at the moment. I probably wouldn't jump onto it immediately, but I am overjoyed that off color options are available now. Dismember and Gut Shot is in a similar boat. The new Phyrexia lifepayment aspects are intriguing since we can counter the costs with glimmerposts. Act of Aggression is similar in this vein, although imo not nearly as amazing as Dismember since it only really works well with Knight of R.

Spellskite is interesting, but I would only consider it if Vindicate started taking off more than it is currently, for example Maverick type decks going to 8 vindicates with the new G vindicate.

[gkraigher]

the planeswalker karn will go into this deck, right.

[nayon]

I think NPH doesn't bring anything overwhelmingly strong to Turbo-Eldrazi, but given meta shifts it might. The Green Vindicate could be pivotal for dealing with bob, which the deck currently has no good answers for. The deck sports a large array of CMC 1s and some of them require finesse to not lose card advantage against, so upping the SDT count and possibly even running Mental Misstep will all be dependent on how much MM is run itself. The Metagame could easily find itself in the situation it was a few years back when threshold was running counterbalance strictly because counterbalance was being run in other decks, but now with Mental Misstep. The deck doesn't lose to cmc 1 spells right now, but if MM permeates the meta enough, TurboEldrazi will have to run it in some form.



What about the fact that many crucial spells in this deck cost 1? How do you plan to combat a swarm of opposing decks with MM? Because of the hype most people will be running 3-4x MM, which seems like it might hurt this deck's game plan quite a bit?

[GGoober]

There are more 1cmc spells in this deck that fulfill the same purpose than MM's being played in an opposing deck i.e. This deck can play well against opposing MMs. Your opponents will have a hard time knowing which spell to counter, especially when you have a diverse array of 1cmc spells waiting in line to bait MMs. Also, this deck can easily go critical when you resolve a PTitan.

Landstill cannot beat this deck :) The only games where I won was drawing Crucible + Wasteland game 1 (run 1 Crucible, 1 Wasteland), and Wasteland Extirpate on game 2 lol. Other than that, this deck crushes control like no tomorrow. The card-advantage/draws are sick. I know Rock cut TfK, but the person in my meta played TfK and it was great against Landstill. In the scenario of Trinket Mage (which is better against aggro metas), control isn't as fearful of +1 card from Mage, but TfK presents itself as a counter-worthy spell and if uncountered, proceeds to net the Turbodrazi player +3 digging into more threats/cards.

[nayon]

I'm still a little scared, considering the biggest players in my meta are Merfolk and Team America. Does this deck have a solid game against them?

Seems like Wasteland + MM + Disruption is hard to fight through. Maybe 1 or 2 of them is fine but all 3 of these factors combined seem scary.

@Rock Lee: Don't you have problems pitching cards to FoW with so few blue spells?

[MeddlingMageGR]

my opinion is to run 3 Pithing Needle mainboard, just to target Wastelands.

[Rock Lee]

With MM becoming dangerously present, I would strongly suggest replacing Brainstorm from my recent lists to TFK. Also up the SDT count to 4 as a must. Between these two changes you will overload your opponents choices for MM. This is exactly how you want to combat hate of this kind, overloading it. Don't blindly Crop rotate like you could in the past, play slightly more conservatively and you'll be good to go.

In testing Karn is more playable than I had originally thought. I'll let you know how my results with him are after this upcoming event.

[cb4]

I agree on Karn. I took out the 3 all is dust from Rock's last list for 2 karn and 1 repeal. He has won me games.

[nayon]

I agree on Karn. I took out the 3 all is dust from Rock's last list for 2 karn and 1 repeal. He has won me games.

How come? I feel like AiD gives you better game against aggro whereas Karn just makes it worse?

[ActionJunkie]

How come? I feel like AiD gives you better game against aggro whereas Karn just makes it worse?

Karn goes from 6 to 10 Loyalty if you +4 first... that's at least two hits from most creatures - stronger than Gideon while still having card advantage and removal built in.

[RexFTW]

why would they attack karn? just kill you.

[cb4]

Tabernacle is my plan vs decks where you would want all is dust. There are some decks where AID is better than Karn, but Karn isn't really bad vs anything. I have won a few games already off of Karning an ensnaring bridge or just T1 cpost, T2 vesuva a post, T3 glimmerpost Karn.

[cb4]

Here is my current list. The maindeck is Rock's last posted list but -3 AID, +2 Karn and +1 Repeal. It has been testing very well for me. I may test thirst for knowledge or impulse in that spot if mental misstep gets prevalent enough.

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Island (1)
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [M11] Primeval Titan
4 [SOM] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [NPH] Karn Liberated



// Sideboard
SB: 1 [M11] Primeval Titan
SB: 1 [UL] Crop Rotation
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith
SB: 3 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [MR] Tree of Tales
SB: 1 [M11] Elixer of Immortality
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

I took the mindbreak traps out of the sb because I have seen no storm in my meta and I needed room for AID. I think engineered explosives is needed in the sb to hit chalice at 1. Repeal can't get it done there. Tree of tales is to give me a land to fetch with trinket mage in matches with alot of LD. I chose it instead of seat of synod for two reasons. One is if I cast trinket mage, then I already have a blue source. The second is tree is easier to crop rotate if you draw it. A single tormod's crypt adds so much value to your trinket mages vs graveyard strategies that it seems worth the slot.

Elixer is the most questionable slot but it is for burn decks. Glimmerpost might be enough there though.
Is there a singleton you think I am missing out on in the sb?

[MeddlingMageGR]

I continue not to find any meaning for the single Pithing Needle. It is supposed that the primary threat of this deck is Wasteland, working alone or combined with Life from the Loam and Knight of the Reliquary.

So I use 3 Needles and I feel a little more safe when I drop it first turn, targeting Wasteland.

I would love to hear your thoughts.

[MeddlingMageGR]

and something else..
many of us complain that GG is very hard to find (for Titan). I agree, but I suggest to replace 2 Breeding Pool for the 2 Islands. (for those who do not own a Tabernacle)

So the mana base would look like that :

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Tropical Island
2 Breeding Pool
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta*

* The reason I play 2 Misty and 2 Delta's is because in my area they have fun to Needle fetch lands.

[MeddlingMageGR]

oh com'on... nobody is interested about this deck anymore ? Why noone says something? Rock where are you ?
tell us about Karn

[nayon]

I've taken out Trinket Mages for Thirst for Knowledge. The cards TM fetches were never the cards I needed, and drawing 3 cards is awesome. I also quite frequently discarded an Emrakul to TfK to "See Beyond" it back and get my graveyard back. I love it.

I also took out FoWs, because I enver had enough blue cards to pitch to it, and when I did have the occasional card, I didn't want to fetch it. I replaced them with Show and Tell, because when your opponent doesn't have the countermagic, you just randomly drop Emrakul and win.

I also cut 3 repeals because I didn't get to use them enough, and added more Emrakuls. Not being able to draw my threats was a huge issue, and now I always have a threat, and it synergizes very nicely with TfK.

[MeddlingMageGR]

I've taken out Trinket Mages for 3 Show and Tell, and 1 more Primeval Titan.
Mages are good, but SaT are better.
I also add 1 Karakas, because its funny to play Emrakul again and again, and Kozilek.

So my blue cards are :

3 Show and Tell
3 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

14 cards its decent number to have, to feed FoW. Besides, Candelabra makes synergy with FoW if you hard casting it, even if you have 1 blue mana in the game.

[cb4]

This is my current list. Mental misstep has been awesome as has karn. Spell burst is a test spot now and could be a 3rd karn or a miser's all is dust. It isn't horrible without buyback and can take over a game with it. It is possible it is win-more and should just be a 3rd karn, 3rd candelabra (I currently own 2 but would buy a 3rd if needed), or a miser's all is dust.

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Island (1)
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [M11] Primeval Titan
4 [SOM] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [NPH] Karn Liberated
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
1 [TSP] Spell Burst

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [M11] Primeval Titan
SB: 1 [UL] Crop Rotation
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [IA] Glacial Chasm


I could see testing thirsts for mages. However mage gets you any artifact you want, any land you want (via expedition map), or kozilek or emrakul (via eye via map). That is 37 cards out of your deck with enough mana. I would almost consider fact or fiction over thirst because for one more mana you get a much more powerful effect.

I can't imagine pulling FOW in a competitive list. I believe 15 is the minimum number of blue I would want to run with it. I think if you are going to go the show and tell route with a playset of emrakuls, then I would drop the the cloudpost plan and maybe add black for additional disruption (making it into a different deck). This would allow you to play more basics and reduce your vulnerability to wasteland.

[cb4]

Has anyone tried Teferi's Response as a sideboard card vs wastelands. Chapin mentioned it in an article this week. I had never heard of it. It counters wasteland (or LD spells) and draws 2 cards. The cost is 1U, so it also dodges mental misstep. Could be hot. Here is where I am at...

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Island (1)
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [M11] Primeval Titan
4 [SOM] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
2 [ROE] All Is Dust

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [M11] Primeval Titan
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith
SB: 3 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 4 [IN] Teferi's Response
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

[Koby]

I've been playing this list with Spell Pierce swapped with Force of Will and have not noticed a significant drawback so far. I think this deck is well poised in the heavy-Blue metagame to be a real contender, if Candles wasn't such an uber expensive card. :(

That said, this deck is pretty cheap to build for Magic Online, so there is that option.

[death]

Has anyone tried Teferi's Response as a sideboard card vs wastelands. Chapin mentioned it in an article this week. I had never heard of it. It counters wasteland (or LD spells) and draws 2 cards. The cost is 1U, so it also dodges mental misstep. Could be hot.

Chapin probably got the idea from this thread. See page 1 post#15. I suggested it.

[evanmartyr]

Or he just remembered that it existed, as nearly anyone who's played Landstill ever has. Used to be the stone-cold nuts in t2.

"Port your island."

"FUUUUUU TEFERI'S RESPONSE!"

*blown out, dies of shame*

[MeddlingMageGR]

this is the decklist im gonna play in 2 days, in a local tournament.

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [TSP] Vesuva
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [UNH] Island
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [ROE] All Is Dust
3 [TE] Intuition

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 3 [U] Forcefield
SB: 1 [CHK] Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 3 [GP] Repeal

[brattin]

I haven't played this deck much at all, but I tested it some with my friend. He regularly was able to get out a bunch of posts and a candelabra and an Eye of Ugin, and search and cast Emrakul, and then on the next turn swing and search and cast the other Emrakul, causing them to die to the Legend rule and get reshuffled, so that he could get and cast Emrakul again...

Obviously anyone who played the deck already knows this, I was just thinking that the way this deck works seems to make Karakas unnecessary (at least in terms of using it to get infinite turns).

[MeddlingMageGR]

I haven't played this deck much at all, but I tested it some with my friend. He regularly was able to get out a bunch of posts and a candelabra and an Eye of Ugin, and search and cast Emrakul, and then on the next turn swing and search and cast the other Emrakul, causing them to die to the Legend rule and get reshuffled, so that he could get and cast Emrakul again...

Obviously anyone who played the deck already knows this, I was just thinking that the way this deck works seems to make Karakas unnecessary (at least in terms of using it to get infinite turns).

you are a little wrong.

When you shuffle the 2 Emrakuls, you reshuffle all your graveyard too. That means that if opponent has a permanent in play that you dont like it very much, for example Ensnaring Bridge or Humility, you have absolutely no possibilities to draw a single Repeal. Taking multiple turns with Karakas, you can "play your deck" and fetch an other Eldrazi (for example Ulamog to destroy something - he is not in my sb yet) or go for a bounce spell.

AN other reason to play Karakas is Gaddock Teeg (prevents you from play All is Dust) and Dark Depths. Not to mention that protects your Eldrazi for many many spells and abilities.

If you have no The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, go for Karakas.

[Shawn]

When you shuffle the 2 Emrakuls, you reshuffle all your graveyard too. That means that if opponent has a permanent in play that you dont like it very much, for example Ensnaring Bridge or Humility, you have absolutely no possibilities to draw a single Repeal

I'm confused here, if you have Eye+a bunch of mana to play and replay Emrakruls, how do you not draw into an answer/just deck them with infinite turns?


Not to mention that protects your Eldrazi for many many spells and abilities.

What do you want to protect Emrakrul from? Kozilek dies to STP/Path, yes, but the time gained from the STP/Path (life gain or mana accel)+the draw four should give you plenty of time to find some relevant card to swing the game in your favor.

[MeddlingMageGR]

I'm confused here, if you have Eye+a bunch of mana to play and replay Emrakruls, how do you not draw into an answer/just deck them with infinite turns?



What do you want to protect Emrakrul from? Kozilek dies to STP/Path, yes, but the time gained from the STP/Path (life gain or mana accel)+the draw four should give you plenty of time to find some relevant card to swing the game in your favor.

for your first :

Lets say that your opponent has Ensnaring Bridge in play, and you are able to play again and again the Emrakuls. Look : You cast the Emrakul no1, you take and extra turn but you cannot attack. You miss a Releal. In the turn no2, you cast Emrakul no.2. Both legendary creatures goes to grave, and you suffle your grave into your library.
So you have lands only plus 1-2 artifacts, and the rest of your cards are in your library. YOU DRAW in your turn. Count the posibilities to draw a Repeal from your 50 card deck. You didnt draw a Repeal. You play again the combo with Emrakuls. You draw again. Nothing. You always draw a card among 50-55 cards. You must be very luckey to draw the correct card. You have to TOP DECK.

is now clear enough for you to understand it ?


For your 2nd : Emrakul is not immortal. For Example can be tapped with Staff of Domination or removed from the game with Oblivion Ring. For these -and not only - threats you need something to protect him. And if you can draw 4 cards with Kozilek, again and again, why not to do it ?

[Shawn]

If you have infinite turns, your opponent is probably going to concede since they can't win via decking.

Also, you are going to have way fewer than "50-55 cards" in your library if you have the infinite turns lock, not to mention this deck plays lots of deck manipulation if your opponent makes you play it out.

Staff and O Ring see barely any play (at least in the States); not even close to enough to warrant the slot for a one of Karakas.

[cb4]

Rock, where have you been bro? I am slowly moving clser and closer back to your last list. The only differences main are

-1 bojuka, + 1 maze of ith
-1 pithing needle, +1 top
-4 brainstorm, +4 mental misstep

Karn is back to the board as I did find the need for all is dust main.

I have been testing 2 intuition instead of 2 of the trinket mages and I cannot decide which is better.

[MeddlingMageGR]

Intuition works better if you play this deck in a "combo version". 3 Show and Tell & 3 Eldrazi and/or 3 Primeval Titans. If you have a creature, you look for Show and Tell. And the opposite.

my doubts are :

Brainstorm or Thirst of Knowledge ?
Sensei's Divining Top or Ancestral Knowledge ?

[MeddlingMageGR]

So... nobody is writting something new, and I feel the need to write my own.
First of all, after tough playtesting, "Sensei's Divining Top vs Ancestral Knowledge" I choose the Knowledge. My reasons :
a) its blue, so I can feed the FoW
b) Its a decent tutor, especially for my Show and Tell version. 10 cards are a lot of cards...
c) co-operates perfectly with Brainstorm. If Brainstorm is in the 10 cards, I put it on top and the best 3 cards underneath. Generally I need only 1 Ancestral Knowledge in the game. The rest of them, goes - as I said - to FoW. And its no needed more than 3 turns. ANd as we all know, colorless mana is no problem for that deck.
d) Sensei's Divining Top is a great card, no doubt about that, but its better working with cards like Counterbalance and Dark Confidant. If i get more than one or if I already have 1 in the game, and 1 in my hand.... the second one goes directly to my a$$.

[cb4]

If I get two tops then I just play the 2nd top and tap it before a shuffle to get rid of it. I also like that it is colorless because it is easy to cast and survives all is dust. It also is great at drawing out mental missteps so your crop rotations and candelabras can get through.


you are a little wrong.

When you shuffle the 2 Emrakuls, you reshuffle all your graveyard too. That means that if opponent has a permanent in play that you dont like it very much, for example Ensnaring Bridge or Humility, you have absolutely no possibilities to draw a single Repeal. Taking multiple turns with Karakas, you can "play your deck" and fetch an other Eldrazi (for example Ulamog to destroy something - he is not in my sb yet) or go for a bounce spell.



Karakas is unnecessary other than to get rid of a teeg. But teeg isn't really that devastating vs this deck. Repeal handles dark depths (as does all is dust if they pop depths on their turn). If you ar looping 2 emrakuls for infinite turns, then you are still drawing a card each turn (get to play your deck?) and you will hit the repeal with infinite draws (even if your graveyard is shuffled). The graveyard shuffle could be key to get a repeal if you only have one and had cast it earlier.

[MeddlingMageGR]

If I get two tops then I just play the 2nd top and tap it before a shuffle to get rid of it. I also like that it is colorless because it is easy to cast and survives all is dust. It also is great at drawing out mental missteps so your crop rotations and candelabras can get through.



If you play 12post without Show and Tell, yes you may keep Sensei. But for me, Ancestral Knowledge is by far the best tutor of the game.

[MeddlingMageGR]

The last decklist I play, and makes me very exciting is this :

// Lands
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [DIS] Breeding Pool

// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 [SOM] Trinket Mage

// Spells
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ROE] All Is Dust
4 [US] Exploration
3 [MM] Trade Routes
3 [MR] Oblivion Stone

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [AQ] Energy Flux
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle

[MeddlingMageGR]

That weekend I participated in a local tournament. Among 31 players I took the 2nd place. I had the same points with the 1st player (4W-1L) but I lost in tie-brakers. My only loss was from an early Progenitus and some FoW and Mental Missteps as well.
After that the 8 first players fight for the "ring" through Swiss top8 single elimination.
I lost there in my fist game with 2-1. I tool the first game easily, but in the second one after a Surgical Extraction in my Expedition Map it was very difficult to go on. Generally I felt 8-9 Missteps that hurt me a lot.

[Philipp2293]

Congratz. How do you SB? Have you never missed any bounce?

[MeddlingMageGR]

I dont remember many things. Against Affinity (1st game) I sb Energy Flux replacing All is Dust, Propaganda replacing Trinket Mage, and Moment's Peace for Exploration. Against Enchantress (2nd game) i didnt sb anything. All is Dust and Oblivion Stone gave me the win. Against NO RUG i wasn't calm and I didnt sb anything. Maybe 4 Moment's Peace would help me a lot.
From this tournament I understand 2 things :

1st, Exploration disappointed me. I never had the chance to combine it with Trade Routes. Playing again and again a Glimmerpost gives me much life, or changing an early Vesuva for a post land is good too.

2nd, After Surgical Extraction in my Expedition Maps, and/or some Mental Missteps in there too, I realized that deck sucks a lot. My thoughts is to drop Explorations for Sylvan Scrying. As someone else said, its "the Green Demonic Tutor for lands".

[MeddlingMageGR]

My last decklist

// Lands
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
5 [LRW] Forest
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
4 [US] Exploration
3 [ROE] All Is Dust
3 [MR] Oblivion Stone
2 [MR] Tooth and Nail

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 4 [SH] Constant Mists
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle

As you can see this is a clean monocolored version of Turbo Eldrazi. I switched into this because I had to decide between "speed" and "control". Blue Control is good... but i believe that this deck can run a lot faster and win games only based on speed.
All the previous decklists doesn't contain Sylvan Scrying. I dont know why... SS is equal or sometimes better than Expedition Map. It's almost uncouterable. And as we all know, Mental Missteps are everywhere now.
In this Green Version, adding 1 Titan more and 2 Tooth and Nail seems to me as a logical continuation. Land cards we may have in hand, with Expedition Map and/or Sylvan Scrying, makes Exploration necessary. 6 board control cards are necessary too. I drop Trade Routes because it was the only blue card in deck, and forced me to use Tropical Islands and Breeding Pools. That means great opportunity for those who play Back to Basics / Blood Moon / Price of Progress. 5 Forests and 4 Fetchlands makes my deck thinner, and co-operate with Sensei's as well.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Is Treasure Hunt good enough in a version with Exploration and Top? And what about Ancient Stirrings?

[Rock Lee]

Glad to see that people are still interested in my deck. I have been absurdly busy recently with non-leisurely activities and only this weekend stabilized my time. I went to a tournament and walked out with 4x Volcanics!

Here's the report with the list http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22151-2nd-%284x-Volc-Island%29-DHG-%289-18%29-with-quot-Post-NPH-quot

As an additional musing. I have a love/hate relationship with Exploration. I hate ripping it with nothing, but it gives for such explosive starts, although it normally just eats a mental misstep. I have been testing Oracle of Mul Daya in its spot to some initially amazing results.

[Rock Lee]

New Banned/Restricted change (Banned Mental Misstep) will fundamentally change the deck as is, since combo will be back with a vengeance and non-blue needs a strong plan against combo. Previously I sideboarded 7 cards against combo and it often wasn't enough. With Hive Mind being one of those viable options some heafty theorycrafting will have to happen, but the deck did magnificently pre-MM so I see a revival of sorts.

[bruizar]

With Crop Rotation and Expedition Map, I would not run this deck without at least 1 Magosi, the Waterveil and 1 Karakas in the sideboard. This to fight both Hive Mind's Pacts and the Show and Tell -> Emrakul path. Tendrils based combo should already be favorable with the built-in life gain from this deck.

Magosi can also randomly win against a Smokestack, though I doubt you'll come across that too often. Karakas also has some added utility, for example Expedition Map into Karakas provides a colorless out against Iona in Reanimator.dec, though Iona is probably the least of your concerns in that match up.

How do you guys board against Reanimator?

[bruizar]

With Crop Rotation and Expedition Map, I would not run this deck without at least 1 Magosi, the Waterveil and 1 Karakas in the sideboard. This to fight both Hive Mind's Pacts and the Show and Tell -> Emrakul path. Tendrils based combo should already be favorable with the built-in life gain from this deck.

Magosi can also randomly win against a Smokestack, though I doubt you'll come across that too often. Karakas also has some added utility, for example Expedition Map into Karakas provides a colorless out against Iona in Reanimator.dec, though Iona is probably the least of your concerns in that match up.

How do you guys board against Reanimator?

[zabuza]

I like this deck, and because i´ve got all the cards I´ve decided to play it. I´ve been playing 12 post in modern and after that tron, but i like posts a lot so I´m going to build it for legacy.

In my builds I play a singleton of platinum emperion because it stabilizes certain pairings and I like it. Beside of that I´m playing a full set of primeval titan which are a house in a deck like this one. I´m going to play 4 of them because in my opinon is the right number.

I like the idea of magosi to fight against milling decks or hive mind decks but my version is monoG so including only a tropical island on side to use magosi doesn´t seem very optimal.

I´m playing in my build 4 overgrown battlement and 4 root wall. They help a lot stabilizing your manabase, providing green without the necesity of playing lot of forest, chumpblock like champs and help you to cast the winner spell in maches where your lands are broken (blood moon, magus of the moon, back to basics,......)

I don´t know if playing crop rotation worth it. I´m thinking on finding the side karakas and so and promise helpful but on the other hand you are losing a green land (which you don´t have a lot) for finding something (and if countered you lose a lot). I´m not sure about playing crop rotation or sylvan scrying or expediton map or a 3-3-3 or what. Currently I´m playing only expedition and scrying to see how good it go.

On side we can play couple of karakas to search for and even angel´s grace if there is lot of hive mind over there so you only have to splash to one color.

What do you think?

[0dysseus]

First of all, many thanks to Rock Lee for this great deck and to whoever else contributed to its building!
It could have been MeddlingMageGR that first briefly showed the deck to me at a tournament recently(I was the guy playing Dragon Stompy, if that was you indeed), but I thought it would be tier 2 at best. And then I saw the lists in this thread and it was love at first sight. Bravo!

The sad truth for me is that I don't have 3 candles and the tavern, and so I will not give a thousand dollars to get them. However...I do expect the 3 Magi of the Candelabra I just bought, to play it at a casual level:)

I hope you guys find a way to make the green version viable. Wonder if a chalice set at 3 is relevant and quick enough against show and tell. Not really much to say, as I am not a very experienced player.

As for Magosi, the Waterveil, I don't think that skipping a turn will help. You still have to pay on your next upkeep. Except if you guys mean that they won't play some of their Pacts (Summoner's +Slaughter) if they don't have that color of mana yet (and if their upkeep comes first with Magosi). I think they can pay a lot easier Negation +Titan's Pacts upkeep costs.

[Xtreme]

I need 1 candelabra and then I pretty much have the deck ready. Running RockLees list.

Looking at SCG Indy:s top 16 ( http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6890 ) it's becoming obvious that there will be a lot a of storm to face in tournaments. I'm new to the deck and asking for advice to defeat storm? Crop rotation into chasm seems like a good counter if they open up with anything else than duress. Because if they do, they can just wait untill we cant pay for upkeep cost on chasm and not waste any resources. Imo anything that can't be played on your first or second turn is unreliable in fighting storm.

Secondly, storm being prevalent is good in the way that the blue-based strategies fighting storm seem to be really good matchups for us.

I'm also trying out Oracle of Mul Daya in the exploration slot and it seems to do much more than exploration.

[zahori]

personally i cannot find any better choice than Chalice of the Void for Hive Mind, and MindBreak Trap for Storm.

Chalice of the Void is not a good enough answer against Hive Mind. It does not counter the copies of the 0cc spells. Hence the original copy will be countered (theirs) but our copy won't, so we still lose the game.

I am planning to play Turbo Eldrazi in the next SCG event I am able to attend, so would really like to encourage some discussion for the new post MM ban/Innistrad metagame. Are there any players following this thread that are available to playtest on Magic Online?

[MeddlingMageGR]

Chalice of the Void is not a good enough answer against Hive Mind. It does not counter the copies of the 0cc spells. Hence the original copy will be countered (theirs) but our copy won't, so we still lose the game.

I am planning to play Turbo Eldrazi in the next SCG event I am able to attend, so would really like to encourage some discussion for the new post MM ban/Innistrad metagame. Are there any players following this thread that are available to playtest on Magic Online?

thats true. sorry for my misunderstanding.

[Rock Lee]

I am planning to play Turbo Eldrazi in the next SCG event I am able to attend, so would really like to encourage some discussion for the new post MM ban/Innistrad metagame. Are there any players following this thread that are available to playtest on Magic Online?

The reason the mono green list performed well was because of the Mental Misstep meta. Because you could overload their MM targets, and they would normally just hit the first target anyway, it gave your excess of CmC 1 free reign.

I am still not sure which version I would prefer in a MM meta. In my opinion, it strongly depends on how well snapcaster decks are keeping combo suppressed, which they do an extremely good job of. Since Turbo Eldrazi has a strong game against snapcaster then this deck is a strong choice so long as you have a plan against combo.

The blue version has Fow and Flusterstorm, but the mono green version generally has to side in 11+ cards, which is a bit tragic. The Mono green version just rofl pony stomps anything that isn't combo though, so I am torn between the two. Testing indicates that the FoW version against both traditional AnT, Hive Mind, and PiF combo is ~ 40% preboard, ~50% post board. The Mono Green version is ~5% pre board and 60% post board, which is horrendous over 3 games.

My last set of testing will be the FoW version with flusterstorm main'd instead of FoW. Not sure what kind of a hybridization I can make, but overall the deck has strong promise.

[Xtreme]

The reason the mono green list performed well was because of the Mental Misstep meta. Because you could overload their MM targets, and they would normally just hit the first target anyway, it gave your excess of CmC 1 free reign.

I am still not sure which version I would prefer in a MM meta. In my opinion, it strongly depends on how well snapcaster decks are keeping combo suppressed, which they do an extremely good job of. Since Turbo Eldrazi has a strong game against snapcaster then this deck is a strong choice so long as you have a plan against combo.

The blue version has Fow and Flusterstorm, but the mono green version generally has to side in 11+ cards, which is a bit tragic. The Mono green version just rofl pony stomps anything that isn't combo though, so I am torn between the two. Testing indicates that the FoW version against both traditional AnT, Hive Mind, and PiF combo is ~ 40% preboard, ~50% post board. The Mono Green version is ~5% pre board and 60% post board, which is horrendous over 3 games.

My last set of testing will be the FoW version with flusterstorm main'd instead of FoW. Not sure what kind of a hybridization I can make, but overall the deck has strong promise.

Mind sharing your thoughts about flusterstorm over other counterspells?

Also, have you come to any conclusion about oracle of mul daya over exploration in the mono-g version? Im still liking oracle better in testing

edit: Although fire/ice and lightning bolt are quite common now, so dont know if its worth enabling those spells by running oracle

[Rock Lee]

Mind sharing your thoughts about flusterstorm over other counterspells?

Also, have you come to any conclusion about oracle of mul daya over exploration in the mono-g version? Im still liking oracle better in testing

edit: Although fire/ice and lightning bolt are quite common now, so dont know if its worth enabling those spells by running oracle

In testing flusterstorm was as good as fow. Half the time when your FoW's would be beaten out suchas upkeep ancestral vision wars your flusterstorms will trump. However on turn 0 or turn-colorless they're dead. Tested showed them about even against combo, although I'm leaning towards the full-green version against the majority of the field.

I settled on 3 exploration 2 oracle for awhile, although I am currently testing 3 exploration 1 oracle. She's good, but you basically never want to open a hand to her.

[MeddlingMageGR]

The reason the mono green list performed well was because of the Mental Misstep meta. Because you could overload their MM targets, and they would normally just hit the first target anyway, it gave your excess of CmC 1 free reign.

I am still not sure which version I would prefer in a MM meta. In my opinion, it strongly depends on how well snapcaster decks are keeping combo suppressed, which they do an extremely good job of. Since Turbo Eldrazi has a strong game against snapcaster then this deck is a strong choice so long as you have a plan against combo.

The blue version has Fow and Flusterstorm, but the mono green version generally has to side in 11+ cards, which is a bit tragic. The Mono green version just rofl pony stomps anything that isn't combo though, so I am torn between the two. Testing indicates that the FoW version against both traditional AnT, Hive Mind, and PiF combo is ~ 40% preboard, ~50% post board. The Mono Green version is ~5% pre board and 60% post board, which is horrendous over 3 games.

My last set of testing will be the FoW version with flusterstorm main'd instead of FoW. Not sure what kind of a hybridization I can make, but overall the deck has strong promise.

exactly. Mono-G TurboEldrazi stomps everything that isn't combo. At least my version.. The problem is with Storm and Hive Mind decks. Your Proposal to side +11 cards, its not so tragic as it seems to be. Having a UG manabase, even if you play mono-g, gives you the opportunity to side : 4 FoW, 4 Stiffle (works exactly the same against Storm and Hive Mind), 4 Flusterstorm, or 4 Mindbreak Trap.
I just take out 3 Oblivion Ring - 3 All is Dust - 2 Tooth and Nail (in my version) - 3 Primeval Titans - 1 Kozilek. 12 cards for 12 Counterspells, leaving the backbone of the deck as it is.

[Xtreme]

This seems like a solid plan. However, I wouldn't run FoW with only 12 blue spells

[cb4]

Stifle is good vs storm, hive mind, and wastelands.

[zahori]

Here is my youtube playlist for my version of the deck:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEDE5909C5DD43802

I will keep adding videos there as I record them.

[Xtreme]

Nice videos, keep 'em coming.

[(nameless one)]

Can the deck still be functional without Candelabra of Tawnos? Would Magus of the Candelabra be an okay alternative?

I was building the Modern version but a lot of the pieces I used got banned. Now I want to port it to Legacy.

[Philipp2293]

Sorry, but running without Candelabra means to significantly slow down the deck. The explosivenss the Candelabras grant are quite often necessary to race aggro (and if you're lucky, combo).

Replacing it with Magus also means you turn on your Opponents removal (well, there are targetable creatures in the deck, but if your opp swords one of your Trinket Mages/Titans or targetable Eldrazis you've still gotten value out of it).

Since I'm posting in this thread anyways I'd like to ask Rock Lee if he is still working on this deck?

[MeddlingMageGR]

Today I participated in a local tournament. Among 25 players, I finished 3rd. I start with a 4-0, but I lose in the final 2-1 from mana screw. I get the 3rd place and not the 2nd, because my opponent had 3,5 - 0,5 wins, and an other player had the same score, and both won. So 2 players 4,5 - 0,5 and me 4-1.

1st game was against Hive Mind.
I was prepared for that matchup, because its very popular in Greece and many good players play it. I win the first very quick. So quick that I didnt sideboard for the second round. He had only 2 lands, and nothing else. So i didnt knew. I lose the 2nd, and in the 3rd I sb 4 Stifle, 4 Flusterstorm, 2 Trinishpere and 1 Magosi, the Waterveil. He tried with Show and Tell. Both Emrakuls :) It was very easy for me to find Magosi and 1 Tropical. So after some turns he decided to play a Pact, and I... just skipped my turn. As you understand he didnt realized that Magosi was there to skip my turn. He thought that I would used it for take an extra turn.

2nd game with a red burn.
All the good stuff. Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Goblin Guide, Fireblast, Price of Progress and more... In the first game I eat 13 damage in 1 turn, but I had 14 life, and the next turn I won. The 2nd game I just sb 4 Flusterstorm and my 2 Trinisphere. 1 Trini was enough to win me my 2nd game.

3rd and 4th game was against Uw Stoneblade. Easy games both of them. 2-0 and 2-0. Stoneblade is a slow deck. Stoneforge Mystic needs 3 turns to gives a result. (1) Cast Mystic and search for a Batterskull, (2) at end of turn put Batterskull into game, (3) attack with a 4/4...!!!

5th game against Maverick. Generally creature decks are no problem for Turbo Eldrazi. I won the fist game, but I dont remember to shuffle well for the 2nd match, and I get a great mana screw. No lands for 3-4 turns. And 3 times Sensei's Divining Top showed me non-land cards. What a pity... He played Green Sun's Zenith for Rafiq of the Many, he had 1-2 Noble Hierarch, and the damage was huge. IN the last game, I get 2 Wastelands for my Cloudpost, and... mana screw again!.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I played this list at my local the other day, going 2-1 (we didn't have many people show up). I beat SNT/Eureka combo and Dredge while losing to Canadian Threshold.

4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
4 Brainstorm
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Force of Will
3 All is Dust

4 Trinket Mage
2 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast

I have since cut the Thirsts for Ponders, as I ended up with a lot of 3-cost spells stuck in my hand. I also had insufficient shuffle effects in several games. I'm going to test running 3 Explorations (-1 Pithing Needle, -1 SDT, -1 card I'm not sure of yet) to increase speed and help fight Wasteland by just dumping lands into play. Blue tempo decks are kind of rough with my current build unless they don't draw Wasteland, as Delver + Tarmogoyf is a pretty fast clock. Despite this, the primary reason I lost to Canadian was just not drawing post lands in games 2 and 3 (I drew plenty of Expedition Maps which got Stifled though). This build probably isn't optimal, but it's definitely entertaining to play and I'll be modifying it in the coming weeks. Any advice on what to cut for the Explorations?

[MeddlingMageGR]

You dont use Crop Rotation. You dont use Sylvan Scrying. Your Expedition maps got Stifled. And you complain about not drawing Post lands ? :)
Built the deck focusing on the main purpose. Get the lands fast and cast the "Who's your Daddy". Playing "heavy" Blue, you just waste your time with control spells like Force of Will. FoW and Exploration is like a war between "Speed vs Control". You cant have them both. You have to choose a philosophy.
From my experience I advise you to got for the Green Speed.

You need land searchers : 4 Expedition Maps, 4 Sylvan Scrying, 3 Crop Rotation. All these spells suffling your deck too. Very important.

You need something to play fast all these lands : 4 Exploration

You need "Joker" cards : 4 Trinket Mage for artifacts cc1. Suffler too.

You need Deck Manipulation : 3 or 4 Sensei's Divining Top. Makes synergy with the 15 suffling cards from above plus the 2 Primeval Titans = 17. Not to mention the 4 Fetchlands. With 21 searchers / sufflers you dont need Brainstorn and Thirst for Knowledge. You can get any card.

You need DEFENCE : All is Dust is not always good. You cant Destroy Ensnaring Bridge, or Pithing Needle or Chalice of the Void (for 1) other annoying artifacts. Keep 3 All is Dust, but go for something else too, like (3) Oblivion Stone that is awesome. Oblivion not only destroys everything, not only choose what to destroy, but its a "living danger" for the opponent. He will think twice to play a permanent. That cost him TIME.

Ulamog is not good. You waste a slot.

more options about what you can play :

Karakas : protect the drawer Kozilek and...

Academy Ruins : reborn your precious Expedition Maps and Candelabras.

Life from the Loam : Synergy with Exploration and maybe "risky tricky" with Sensei's Top. (You look the top 3, you dont like them? Throw them in the grave and look again 3. You see 2 Lands? Graveyard again, and draw them with LftL, and cast them with Exploration.

Trade Routes : Protects your lands from Wasteland, plus much much life from playing again and again your Glimmerposts. Synergy with Exploration of course (play 2 times Glimmerposts, double your life you get), you can transform an early Vesuva from... Tropical Island to a Post land, or play again and again Bojuka Bog.

Combo between Trade Routes - Life from the Loam - Exploration :

Pay 2, discard 2 lands and DRAW 2 cards. Play Life to get these 2 lands, and play them with Exploration. Again... pay 2, get to your hand and discard 2 lands to draw 1 card. With the other "drawing ability" activate Life to get it to your hand while you put 3 cards in grave (maybe some of them is a land card), and cast it to bring back the 3 lands and play them again. Its not a great combo, but its cool. You just draw cards and separate your land cards IN your grave, to get them back to your hand.
You dont like LftL? Do the same with Crucible of Worlds. But as an artifact is very easy to get destroyed

Glacial Chasm : You dont have to pay Cumulative upkeep if you have Exploration and LftL or Crucible. Great Defence. (I m not sure about playing Glacial Chasm, and Trade Routes. When Glacial comes into play, and I have to sacrifice a land, if I can pay 1 and return that land to my hand with Trade Routes, instead of put it in the graveyard. Its a rule thing, I must ask someone).

1 Tolaria West (land tutor)

[Xtreme]

For reference, could you give me your decklist MeddlingMageGr, if it has changed since last time you posted it.

The core of the deck seems to be(Mono-G)
-12 post
-Eye of ugin
-About 10-12 of forests and fetchlands combined
-3-4 Crop rotation
-3-4 Expedition Map (this is core IMO)
-2-3 Primeval Titan
-3-4 Senseis top
-3-4 Exploration
-2 Emrakul
-1 Kozilek
-3 Cruicible of worlds
-1 Maze of Ith
-2-3 All is Dust
-Either Beast within or Oblivion stone


Then, in different versions there are
-Sylvan Scrying
-Tooth and nail
-Bojuka Bog
-Buried Ruin
-Life from the loam

Point out if I missed anything here.

Im trying to find an optimal build. I have tried out Explore in addition to exploration. Its not bad, but its not really good either. I guess sylvan scrying could be better in the slot

I agree on going for speed, ie, monoG. To be honest I havent tried the blue version and I think intuition has its merits, but not enough to outweigh the solidness of the mono-g version.

I've played quite a lot on MWS with solid results. The obvious problem is ANT, TES and belcher combo. High tide combo seems to be quite possible to race. Another big problem is monoR red with 4 price and progress main. This is almost worse than ANT/TES

RockLee, could you share your oppinions on the best build? Im gonna participate in the national champs with the deck, and hope to finish top8 again.

[MeddlingMageGR]

Yes, Explore isn't that much great. Compared to Sylvan Scrying, is nothing. Sylvan seems to be the "Green Demonic Tutor" for lands.

If you like Intuition, you must change back to GU version where you can play 3-4 copies of Show and Tell.

ANT and Hive Mind you fight them in 2nd and 3rd game from sideboard. 4 Stifle, 4 Flusterstorm for both of them, and 1 Magosi, the Waterveil in addition for Hive Mind.

MonoRed is really a problem. I was lucky and I won 2 times in the local tournament, using Trinisphere and Flusterstorm.

My last decklist I used for the last 2 tournaments (the first I left after a 3-0 for personal reasons and in the 2nd I run a 4-1 losing in the final) was that one :

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/3959/decklist.th.jpg (http://img840.imageshack.us/i/decklist.jpg/)

Now im thinking to cut All is Dust, for 3 Trade Routes and keep the defence using 1 Glacial Chasm (in Bojuka slot) + Eternity Vessel. These 2 makes a combo. In a 61 card deck :(

[Xtreme]

Im gonna try out your version. I really wish I owned a tabernacle though, I've been missing that effect on lots of matches

[Philipp2293]

My favourite use for Tabernacle was going infinite (was playing only 1 Emrakul back then IIRC).

[Xtreme]

My favourite use for Tabernacle was going infinite (was playing only 1 Emrakul back then IIRC).

I trust you mean candelabras, not tabernacle. I dont think the deck is playable without candelabras

[Philipp2293]

I trust you mean candelabras, not tabernacle. I dont think the deck is playable without candelabras

I actually meant infinite in term of turns, abusing Tabernacle ;).

I agree with your statement concerning Candelabras though, I've stated my opinion on the previous page.

[Xtreme]

I actually meant infinite in term of turns, abusing Tabernacle ;).

I agree with your statement concerning Candelabras though, I've stated my opinion on the previous page.

Sorry for my slow wits. I see your point.

I've been meddling with the UG and monoG build. Ultimately I'm more sold on the mono-G version. Trinket mage is the nuts, but its most of the time expedition map 5-8, at least for me. Sylvan scrying is also really good in addition to Expedition map, much better than explore

[MeddlingMageGR]

In the last tournament I finished 4th among 25 players, with 4W-1L. I'm thinking about replacing the 3 All is Dust and Bojuka Bog, with 2 Crucible of Worlds, 1 Life from the Loan, and Glacial Chasm. Makes synergy with Explorations.

Edit

With that addition I solve some problems : discard, Wastelands, hordes of creatures. I can gain life as well, playing the Glimmerpost I just sacrifised to Glacial Chasm. I dont have to pay each turn the Chasm. It goes to grave, and come back again with Crusible or Life from the Loan. Besides that, Explorations now are good not only in the first rounds, but in the middle game.

twitter @jimpanourgias for live coverage in tournaments and thoughts.

[Xtreme]

In the last tournament I finished 4th among 25 players, with 4W-1L. I'm thinking about replacing the 3 All is Dust and Bojuka Bog, with 2 Crucible of Worlds, 1 Life from the Loan, and Glacial Chasm. Makes synergy with Explorations.

Edit

With that addition I solve some problems : discard, Wastelands, hordes of creatures. I can gain life as well, playing the Glimmerpost I just sacrifised to Glacial Chasm. I dont have to pay each turn the Chasm. It goes to grave, and come back again with Crusible or Life from the Loan. Besides that, Explorations now are good not only in the first rounds, but in the middle game.

twitter @jimpanourgias for live coverage in tournaments and thoughts.


The problem with glacial chasm is that it acutally requires the minimum of cruicible/loam to work, and additionally an exploration to be effective. Nor does it work against burn, where u just cant afford to sac it and replay it, because u will get killed meanwhile. I guess i havent tried vesuva as a copy of chasm though in this matchup.

I initially played with chasm but decided to cut it because of poor results. Will be glad to hear if you have better success with it

[MeddlingMageGR]

Of course. I agree totally. But here we are trying to find ways for a better defense. That's why I compare All is Dust with other cards. Playing this deck for months, I find that All is Dust is probably the weakest card in the deck. It has some serious disadvantages. Firstly has no synergy with the rest of the deck. Its a great card - no doubt - but is out of the philosophy. It protects "me" from creatures, enchantments and Planeswalkers, but dosn't protect my "combo" -> finding lands as soon as possible. Secondly it needs special conditions. You never play it when you have 7 mana, just because you have 7 mana. (for our goal, cards like Eternity Vessel are far away better than All is Dust). You need something more. Your opponent to have colored permanents, more than you. And thirdly its not useful in opening hand. Besides that we have Oblivion Stone for extreme situations (Ensnaring Bridge, Humility).


So the question is : Can we find a way to keep defense high, with cards that serve our purpose ? I believe yes. Crucible / Life from the Loan and Glacial Chasm, first of all protect our lands. Secondly co-operates with Exploration. "Ex" is not useful now only in 1st-2nd round. And finally, as you said, playing Vesuva as a copy of it, we get "immunity" to dmg from creatures and spells. I have faith to this combo. Now I can remove the 4 Propaganda from sideboard, for new cards. I have a way to protect myself...

[Heresy]

I tested Dimitris Panourgias's list and Trade Routes is some sweet tech! Eternity Vessel becomes unnecessary if all your life-gaining lands are replayed over and over, and it's brutal with Exploration.

EDIT: Making you waste-proof is quite convenient.

[MeddlingMageGR]

yes, Trade Routes is more than "fun to play" and "cool" and... and... and...!! But there is no space for it in my deck. What you took out for TR ?

[Heresy]

yes, Trade Routes is more than "fun to play" and "cool" and... and... and...!! But there is no space for it in my deck. What you took out for TR ?

I'm not sure what you mean because his list has already the TR :

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6793&iddeck=49310

But, I'm toying with crucibles + Oracle of Mul Daya for those All Is Dust and, of course, the utility lands slots are meta-dependent, so mine are only Glacial Chasm and Eye of Ugin, upping Candelabra to 4.

[MeddlingMageGR]

I'm not sure what you mean because his list has already the TR :

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6793&iddeck=49310


Its me. Dimitris Panourgias its me. I was playing that decklist, ending 2nd after 5 rounds, but in the Top-8 I lost from Epitropakis (no.3) because of his 8-9 Mental Missteps. So im telling you that TR is a great card with many cool tricks, but i have no room for it.

[MeddlingMageGR]

Hello again.
Well, this is the end. That will be my last post for my lovely deck, publishing my last improved decklist, and ill stop here because I believe there is nothing else to think better than this list.
Time has passed, tournaments too, and i've learned my lessons. The Big change is to get "unhooked" from Blue. Trinket Mage was the only good reason for that. BUT... there is a card that is cheaper, faster, and much more effective. Its Enlightened Tutor. Tutor get me Exploration, or Crucible in addition to all my (casting cost "1") artifacts, that Trinket can get. Casting Exploration early, 1st or 2nd round, is a huge advantage for both attack and defence (its the 1/3 combo with Crucible and Glacial Chasm). I cant miss it, or I cant wait for luck in my opening hand.
Besides that, my other addition is 3 Pithing Needle, targeting Wasteland. I ve lost some games from Wasteland - Extirpate (or Surgical Extraction).


// Lands
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [TSP] Vesuva
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [R] Savannah
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [US] Exploration
4 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [10E] Pithing Needle
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

For sb, its in your choice, depending your area.

[Xtreme]

Hello again.
Well, this is the end. That will be my last post for my lovely deck, publishing my last improved decklist, and ill stop here because I believe there is nothing else to think better than this list.
Time has passed, tournaments too, and i've learned my lessons. The Big change is to get "unhooked" from Blue. Trinket Mage was the only good reason for that. BUT... there is a card that is cheaper, faster, and much more effective. Its Enlightened Tutor. Tutor get me Exploration, or Crucible in addition to all my (casting cost "1") artifacts, that Trinket can get. Casting Exploration early, 1st or 2nd round, is a huge advantage for both attack and defence (its the 1/3 combo with Crucible and Glacial Chasm). I cant miss it, or I cant wait for luck in my opening hand.
Besides that, my other addition is 3 Pithing Needle, targeting Wasteland. I ve lost some games from Wasteland - Extirpate (or Surgical Extraction).


// Lands
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [TSP] Vesuva
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [R] Savannah
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth

// Spells
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [US] Exploration
4 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [10E] Pithing Needle
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

For sb, its in your choice, depending your area.

Have you found pithing needle superior to oblivion stone? Im currently trying out 3 oblivion stones in the spot i had beast within. All is dust is probably going off the deck as its too expensive albeit faster than o-stone

[MeddlingMageGR]

These are 2 different cards with different approach. Using Oblivion Stone, you have a great defence against permanents. Besides creatures and Planeswalkers, you have a "plus+" against Ensnaring Bridge, Humility, Chalice of the Void, Blood Moon. These cards kill that deck. That's why I keep them in sideboard. But more ppl play Wastelands, than these cards. And generally the only problem of that deck, is this one.
From the other side playing with Needle, you have no defence at all. Not even a single removal for anything. You based only on your speed (Tutors helps a lot), and you play your game. As I told you before, Im very angry with some of my "teammates" that Extirpate my Cloudposts, and for only that reason I do not give a shit for any other threat. But this is me... I take my risks. Τhe logical addition is to play with 3 [card]Oblivion Stone[/cards]. Its a tested card, not very popular, but in our deck fits like a glove.
Im really thinking seriously to play with 62 cards. Karakas and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. I think its better to keep Emrakul away from Graveyard. And with Ulamog I solve the "removal" problem...

[Xtreme]

I see your point. Im sold on oblivion stone however and will keep that in the MD for the national championship next week. I will use pithing needle and surgical extraction to fight wasteland from sideboard. I think s extraction will be very solid against dredge, wasteland and reanimator

[MeddlingMageGR]

I love this deck because it shakes down the 3 fundamental rules of MTG :
a) 1 land per turn
b) 1 mana per land
c) 1 turn per player

Imagine now to replace the 3 Oblivion Stone with Defense of the Heart and the 3 fetchlands with Forbidden Orchard....

[Heresy]

Latest tech : Unstable Frontier, they need 2 waste now.

[Zolek]

Unstable frontier doesn't make the land basic.

Check the gatherer entry: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189078

[MeddlingMageGR]

Unstable frontier doesn't make the land basic.

Check the gatherer entry: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189078

of course it does. read the rulings again. it doesn't change the name and whether is legendary or not. only this. for example Volcanic Island is changed into basic forest, it tapps for Green, with name Volcanic Island.

[Malchar]

2/1/2009: The affected land loses its existing land types and any abilities printed on it. It becomes the chosen basic land type and now has the ability to tap to add one mana of the appropriate color to your mana pool. Unstable Frontier's ability doesn't change the affected land's name or whether it's legendary or basic.

It doesn't become basic, it just becomes a basic type, kind of like how the old duals work.

[moseby]

I know this will eat space in an already tight deck list but has anyone thought of using crop rotation into a karoo land to bonce your cloudpost in response to a wasteland?

I loved the deck when I played it with borrowed candelabras (had to give them back):frown:

[MeddlingMageGR]

read the Karoo land again...

[Anusien]

I was working on this deck a while ago; I don't still have the list. But here's what I found out:
*) The Eldrazi plan is cute but somewhat unnecessary. I jammed 4 Primeval Titan, and they would just always ramp me to an Eldrazi the next turn.
*) Candelabra of Tawnos is overkill; it helps you run out a turn 4 Emrakul or something, but if you want that, you should probably play more than 3. The deck was already low on threats.
*) Expedition Map was kind of sweet, but Trinket Mage -> Expedition Map was a million mana.
*) Mox Diamond was cool for fixing my mana.

You can probably also support Brainstorm and maybe even Daze and Force.

I don't understand why you'd reinvent the wheel instead of starting from the Modern lists.

[MeddlingMageGR]

Xe would love to see your list. Personally I don't play the UG version anymore (for many many reasons), but it's cool to watch some lists...

[Xtreme]

Im glad someone giving the deck a different point of view.

A resolved primeval titan + 1 attack gives enough mana for emrakul. This is true, however, if its delt with after resolution the +2 lands in itself wont give u the eldrazi.

Candelabra is sometimes overkill but it has many time won me games as its usually -1 turn for emrakul. It can be used to power out a 3rd turn primeval too(without exploration).

The countersuite would be ideal for the deck, there are some problems though. Daze's problem is the requirement for an island, witch means you have to go island/tropical first. Dont know if this really is a problem. Force would require a bigger set of blue cards to work, this could in addition to daze and force itself be brainstorm/trinket mage/intuition, which would most likely take the place of senseis top and some land tutors

The BU version is slower than the mono-g version but more resilent. I havent tried out the GW version with enlightened tutor though.

Please post your decklist and any possible testings. I'm gonna run the mono-g build next weekend in a 90 person tournament, will be back for a report of some kind after

[MeddlingMageGR]

Are you sure that this deck needs U for control ? Face it clearly : The goal is to create 20 mana to win, as soon as possible. This has nothing to do with "control". Its all about speed. Dont lose time to wait with FoW in hand, just to counter something stupid. Find the lands, drop them in the battlefield, find the Em, and win. If you delay your game you have to face more opponent's threats.

My version has, 2,58 average mana cost including Eldrazis, with 24 cards in cc1. 4 cards with 2cc, and 3 cards in 3cc. I built that decklist having in mind defence againsts hordes of creatures, Wastelands, and Planeswalkers. With support from sideboard, I can fight Combos as well.


// Lands
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [TSP] Vesuva
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [R] Savannah
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [M11] Primeval Titan

// Spells
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [US] Exploration
4 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [10E] Pithing Needle
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MR] Oblivion Stone
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 2 [UL] Harmonic Convergence

First move : Go for the Exploration.
Second Move : Needle Wasteland
Glacial Chasm is your only good Defence, so protect it. Set up a scenery with Exploration & Crucible, and play again and again Glacial Chasm, without paying life, or losing lands (the land you lose, return it into game with Crusible, as the 2nd land from Exploration). You can grow up this combo by casting a 2nd Exploration and draw cards with Horizon Canopy as you sacrifice it again and again, and put it into play as a 3rd land. Your mana base is getting bigger. All your spells cost 1 or 2. Its extremely easy to win. You have 20 cards that search or look for something. You dont need Brainstorm, you already have what you need. You dont need FoW, you empty your hand in a few turns. All your spells point your destination. There is no room in my mind for anything else. Opponent can't counter everything.

Im not sure about Primeval Titan. I know it sounds strange, because Primeval has won me games. But more often gets exiled and 2 lands may not help a lot. Im testing Defense of the Heart with 1 Forbidden Orchard. Opponent has 1 turn to destroy it. Orchant is good against Hive Mind too.

[Xtreme]

How has chasm and enlightened tutor been working out? Im not gonna do tutor, but I might add the chasm as I have the cruicible+exploration package already

[MeddlingMageGR]

Tutor got his place from the need for an early Exploration. I already had a tutor, the trinket mage. But he was slow and couldn't get me Exploration or Crucible when the things where going wrong. This tutor is superior to mage.
About Chasm, I have no words to describe. I have won games and games just because Chasm gave me 1-2 turns until I find time to stabilize it. if I get the lock (with a Needle for wasteland) it's very difficult for the opponent. But it is usefully even alone. I will not replace this card, ever.

the problem is that I want to add more lands but there is no room for them and I don't know what to cut. Like Buried Ruin and Maze of Ith. Any help for the mama base please ?

[BVB09]

Has anyone considered Tangle Wire or Winter Orb to slow down the opponent a bit? I think Wire could be a good, and it's not dificult to cast it in our second turn.

[mistercakes]

i've been using tangle wire in my prison decks. it's a bit slow vs a lot and it doesn't really do much vs the flash-based creature decks. i've thought about root maze for a while. maybe worth a try?

[Xtreme]

Winter Orb sounds like a bad idea but tangle wire could work.

I played in the nationals(103 players) with this list:

1 Karakas
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye oF Ugin
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
5 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm

3 Sensei's Divining top
4 Crop Rotation
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
3 Sylvan Scrying
2 Emrakul, The Aeons Thorn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Primeval Titan
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
3 Oblivion Stone
1 All is Dust


SB
2 Tormods crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
3 Trinisphere
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pithing needle

First notes: I sided in pithing needle in all matches as ALL opponents had at least 3 wastelands.

Game 1 (2-0) UBG control with jace and deed. I drew really good and theres nothing more to say here, it was 2-0


Game 2 (2-0) BGR goyf-confidant-bolt. Game 1 I oblivion stone his threats and win. Game 2 he mulls to 5 and gets stuck on one land


Game 3(2-1) RUG tempo with surgical extration main. Yeah, game 1 he wasteland - extractions my cloudposts and I dont recover. Game 2 I get needle on wasteland and get an emrakul before he beats me down. Game 3 he dazes my first needle and forces my second, so Im pretty sure he has waste+extraction. I play around it though and manage to make him take my vesuvas instead by making vesuva a copy of his wasteland. This eventually wins the game when I manage to get the emrakul mana



Game 4(0-2) BUG tempo. Game 1 mull to 5, he wastelands me and I dont recover from fast delver beats. Game 2 I get a needle on wasteland, but he has a fast clock with double delver and confidant. Only game today that felt impossible to win

Game 5(2-1) MonoB control with Liliana, smallpox, pox and nether spirit. Game 1 he gets ulti with liliana and I cant recover. Game 2 and 3 the deck does what it does against a slow clock

Game 6(0-2) UR Delver-burn. Price of progress; nuff said

Game 7(2-1) UW stoneblade. Game 1 i mull to 4 but manage to stabilize and get chasm lock on him as he really doesnt put me on a clock. Game 2 I lose to a Geist of saint traft and wastelands. Game 3 not much to say, oblivion stone and crucible wins the game

I finished 5-2 and got to 11 place / 103 and won some credits for the store

Overall I was really pleased with the deck and eventhough I played against wasteland.dec all day long I didnt get paired against combo decks. There were a lot of maverick though, and that would have been an easy MU.

Glacial chasm was amazing, Karakas was useless(due to MU:s) and oblivion stone was good.

Also, Surgical extraction is a pain in the ass because you need to fear it game 2-3 against most decks right now

[MeddlingMageGR]

So, you confirm my words, that everybody loves Wasteland. I told you that and that's why I play 3 Needles maindeck. With Needle you could stop Lilliana too.
About mulligans try to shuffle properly, making 10 slots on the table, and put cards clockwised.
Karakas is useful to return your Eldrazi for protection from S.Extraction. Or deal with any legendary reanimated creature.

congratulations for your wins. It's really a big thing to finish 11th among 100.

[Xtreme]

So, you confirm my words, that everybody loves Wasteland. I told you that and that's why I play 3 Needles maindeck. With Needle you could stop Lilliana too.
About mulligans try to shuffle properly, making 10 slots on the table, and put cards clockwised.
Karakas is useful to return your Eldrazi for protection from S.Extraction. Or deal with any legendary reanimated creature.

congratulations for your wins. It's really a big thing to finish 11th among 100.

Yep I'm gonna put some of the needles MD, not sure to cut though. I'm aware of the karakas shenanigans with emrakul, they just weren't needed today. I might try out the e-tutor package too, next weekend will be a smaller tournament
I payed attention to the shuffling and put some time in it too, I think I was just unlucky in some games

EDIT: I might actually try cutting one emrakul and leave the karakas. I didnt need the second one in any games and its poor in ur opening 7

[MeddlingMageGR]

Cut 1 Crop Rotation and 1 Candelabra for start. I suggest cut All is Dust too. 3 Oblivion Stones plus the ability to fetch them with tutors are enough. But seriously, you must find slots for all of them... Think strongly what you must leave behind...

[Nastaboi]

Winter Orb sounds like a bad idea but tangle wire could work.
First notes: I sided in pithing needle in all matches as ALL opponents had at least 3 wastelands.

Game 1 (2-0) UBG control with jace and deed. I drew really good and theres nothing more to say here, it was 2-0

Sure I had at least three Wastelands and saw none, and went to a little tilt after the match (nice pairing). Things started looking up as I won my next two matches only to find you 3-0! Pity you didn't make top 8.

There were only 99 players BTW.

[Xtreme]

Sure I had at least three Wastelands and saw none, and went to a little tilt after the match (nice pairing). Things started looking up as I won my next two matches only to find you 3-0! Pity you didn't make top 8.

There were only 99 players BTW.

Yep the pairing was quite nice:)
It's a pity, maybe better luck next time. The deck is powerful to say the least

[sap]

first time poster, long time reader.

i love this deck, been playing it since glimmerpost was printed and the deck list shown up online (probably by its creator).
i took a break from MTG when mental misstep was printed, getting my candelabra of tawnos or crop rotation MMed was just to frustrating.

now im thinking in returning to MTG since MM was banned, but i used to run the show and tell version (G/U) with 4 titans and i had reasonable success (show and telling a titan open up so many awsome plays in this deck).
but from what ive seen people seem to be playing mono G or G/W versions with explorations now, i was wondering if this is the most success version atm?
also The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale seems to be out and maze of ith in?

just asking because i dont own any exploration or Enlightened Tutor (and theyre a bit expensive, dont mind buying them if theyre really worth it) and i was wondering if thats the best version to go now? i have every other card though.

thanks in advance.
edit: card tags

[Xtreme]

first time poster, long time reader.

i love this deck, been playing it since glimmerpost was printed and the deck list shown up online (probably by its creator).
i took a break from MTG when mental misstep was printed, getting my candelabra of tawnos or crop rotation MMed was just to frustrating.

now im thinking in returning to MTG since MM was banned, but i used to run the show and tell version (G/U) with 4 titans and i had reasonable success (show and telling a titan open up so many awsome plays in this deck).
but from what ive seen people seem to be playing mono G or G/W versions with explorations now, i was wondering if this is the most success version atm?
also The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale seems to be out and maze of ith in?

just asking because i dont own any exploration or Enlightened Tutor (and theyre a bit expensive, dont mind buying them if theyre really worth it) and i was wondering if thats the best version to go now? i have every other card though.

thanks in advance.
edit: card tags


Cant tell really for sure, Meddlingmage has had some success with both Gu and Gw lists, I have yet to try out the Gw list, but Im running the mono-g atm. When I have the energy I will try out enlightened tutor package though.

To be honest I havent tried out the show and tell-version either, but my guess would be that it is less consistent than a version without it, i.e, just sticking to the main plan - lands out and emrakul on table

[sap]

Cant tell really for sure, Meddlingmage has had some success with both Gu and Gw lists, I have yet to try out the Gw list, but Im running the mono-g atm. When I have the energy I will try out enlightened tutor package though.

To be honest I havent tried out the show and tell-version either, but my guess would be that it is less consistent than a version without it, i.e, just sticking to the main plan - lands out and emrakul on table
thanks for the reply, just checked your deck list, seems really cool to me.

to fight wasteland i've tried everything, from crucible of worlds to pithing needle (but never tried them together in the MD) but having 3 + 3 + 4 (crop rotation) thats 10 answers to wasteland, i like! even better because MM is banned (yes i hated that card).

just one last question, seems like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is out of any recent list, i remember it saved my ass a few times, but there wasnt any tunr 2 2/3 flyer (delver of secrets) at the time. also with all the stoneforge mystic and equipments floating around maybe avoiding one single creature damage is way batter than waste their mana for 1-2 turns.

[dahcmai]

I know this will eat space in an already tight deck list but has anyone thought of using crop rotation into a karoo land to bonce your cloudpost in response to a wasteland?


Now you can't use a Karoo style land, but you most definitely can use a Lair land in this way. Weird answer, but might be good as a one of.

[Xtreme]

Now you can't use a Karoo style land, but you most definitely can use a Lair land in this way. Weird answer, but might be good as a one of.

Technically this works, but it doenst benefit us as much as just saccing the targeted post for another post(surgical extraction aside).

I would play tabernacle in my 75 if I owned one, probably in the sideboard though. Maze of ith is a must-have in the MD IMO, because its so good against stoneforge and decks that are low on threats. Also notice maze of ith's shenanigans with candelabra and vesuva.

[sap]

I would play tabernacle in my 75 if I owned one, probably in the sideboard though. Maze of ith is a must-have in the MD IMO, because its so good against stoneforge and decks that are low on threats. Also notice maze of ith's shenanigans with candelabra and vesuva.
oh yeah i wasnt seeing that sinergy, sweet!
thanks a lot for the help, now omw to rebuild the deck :)

[Philipp2293]

What Extreme said, I won today against UW Blade on the back of Maze, Vesuva-Maze and Candelabra.

I ran a Mono Green List to a pretty disapointing 2-2 finish today, lost against Imperial Painter, quick Blood Moon followed by a Painter and enough blasts in both games and against Maverick, which I basically threw away (Game Loss for not desideboarding, G3 I misplay my Beast Within and die 1 turn short of stabilizing), won against UWr Stoneblade (the play I lost when he had the Force for my Crop Rotation for Maze) and a RW Homebrew. I think MD Needle is really really needed. Exploration sucked all day.

[MeddlingMageGR]

What Extreme said, I won today against UW Blade on the back of Maze, Vesuva-Maze and Candelabra.

I ran a Mono Green List to a pretty disapointing 2-2 finish today, lost against Imperial Painter, quick Blood Moon followed by a Painter and enough blasts in both games and against Maverick, which I basically threw away (Game Loss for not desideboarding, G3 I misplay my Beast Within and die 1 turn short of stabilizing), won against UWr Stoneblade (the play I lost when he had the Force for my Crop Rotation for Maze) and a RW Homebrew. I think MD Needle is really really needed. Exploration sucked all day.

Exploration sucked all day because you dont play e-tutor to get it fast. Its the No.1 target for it.


f
also The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale seems to be out and maze of ith in?

just asking because i dont own any exploration or Enlightened Tutor and i was wondering if thats the best version to go now?
Exactly. Maze of Ith is much more helpful than Tabernacle. For example against Goblin Luckey or Phyrexian Dreadnought. Now, about Exploration and e-tutor… Exploration is absolutely necessary. makes your deck runs in a double speed, plus its your first move for your defence. You have so many spells to get lands, but only Exploration to play them fast. E-tutor is a must with all these artifacts. you never know what you might need.

[Masamune]

How about try to run Teferi's Response in G/U conltrol version? This allows us to draw cards against Wastes/Sinkholes/Vindicates

[Xtreme]

How about try to run Teferi's Response in G/U conltrol version? This allows us to draw cards against Wastes/Sinkholes/Vindicates

It seems a lot worse than pithing needle in almost every way

[Rock Lee]

It has been awhile since I stepped in and gave my opinions as the major designer of the deck. I normally hold back my lists, but I'll just dump them for your guys sake since you seem to all enjoy the deck. Even in Mental Mistep era I was finding great success with different varieties of the deck, but metagaming the fundamentals of the deck is extremely important to the success of this incredible deck.

I don't travel to events as much as I used to, but for months now I have been playing off my winnings at a local venue that allows me to accrue credit and use it for following events.

Mental Misstep era build:
// Lands
4 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
5 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 [M11] Primeval Titan

// Spells
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [ROE] All Is Dust
4 [NPH] Beast Within
3 [US] Exploration

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

This deck just spat at Mental Misstep by overloading it. The majority of the skill was reading your opponent to see what was bait in their mind, and what was a threat. Sometimes Exploration was a bomb, and sometimes it was fodder. They didn't know that though and with this deck I raked in over 800$ in prize among the sparse events I attended during Mental Misstep's height.



Post Mental Misstep:
// Lands
4 [TSP] Vesuva
3 [U] Tropical Island
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [9E] Island (1)
1 [ALA] Forest (4)

// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

// Spells
2 [ROE] All Is Dust
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DDF] Thirst for Knowledge
3 [US] Show and Tell

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

Prior to Mental Misstep, the Blue-based version won me enough to pay for the deck even running 4x Candelabra and the last tally I wrote down shows me winning a total of 2250$ in prize up to Mental Misstep's printing and the deck changed. As I have not been playing as much in the post-Mental Misstep era, I have a less impressive prize-pool, but 100% of the events I have brought this version to I have finished Top 8 (as of March 18, don't come at me haters).

This list chomps on Show & Tell on Primeval Titan, which is by far the best move the deck has. Everything else is simply distraction to that end. Metagaming of that list can vary to running a MD Needle, MD Tabernacle, MD EE or less/more lands depending on how you want to appraise opening hands or fear things like Moon affects.

Some aspects that should not change:

- 6 removal spells: Whether it be All is Dust, Beast Within, Repeal, and EE, there should be 6 of these spells on the maindeck. Pithing needle can fit a quasi-slot for removal, but any less than 5 + needle is dangerous. Ulamog does not count as removal that allows you to accelerate mana, only removal that will let you kill them, Ensnaring Bridge/Lethal Boardstate due to equipment or monsters/Liliana. If you absolutely must try less than 6 removal spells, then one maindeck land MUST be Karakas for recursion of Ulamog outside of repeal.

- Eldrazi Package (2x Emrakul + Koz + Ulamog): I've had success without this package in the past, but since embracing it I have not looked back. It blows my mind that some players insist on not running a card draw & removal Eldrazi when games will be won/lost on their triggers. Often I consider Koz to be Opportunity & Shuffle my Grave for 8 mana, and Ulamog to be Vindicate & Shuffle my grave for 9. I also considered having my Koz & Ulamog mod'ed to be tilling some fields with a scythe since that is invariably where they go after a priority pass via STP. All these aspects considered, they are still invaluable.

- 4 Sensei's Divining Top - Best card in the deck. hands down. Playing without 4 is foolish and shows a lack of understanding of how the deck can perform optimally. When this card gets countered I cringe, but akin to the Mono-Green version, sometimes it is simply bait. This deck gets much of its ability to win off of mind-screw and the inability for most decks to even fight it without heavy wasteland recursion. If SDT was banned, this deck would be significantly hindered.

- 6+ Card Advantage cards - The 2nd veiled strength of this deck is its ability to simply bowl over opponents card-advantage-wise in game 2/3 when most decks muck up their decks with hate. Most of the deck already runs parity, the removal often 2+ for-one's them, but having a robust draw engine still is of paramount import.


A final note: Realize that this deck is a Combo/Control deck. Sometimes you simply want to put the cards on the table and say "if you got it, then that's game, otherwise that's game," but sometimes you have the ability to sit on your heels passively and nullify every threat they throw out through lifegain, card advantage, and mass removal. Knowing when to make that transition is integral for success with this deck.

A final, final note: I greatly enjoy this deck, but have heard from other players that it is very difficult to play and requires copious amounts of playtesting to even get an average-bead on what hands to keep, how to play against wastes, how to beat harder matchups and sideboarding nightmares. Just picking up this deck can seem daunting on both the pocket and the sanity, but if you put in the time it WILL reward you! Feel free to ask any questions as I am always interesting in giving an experienced opinion on all sorts of conceptualizing for this deck. If you've thought of it, I probably at one point had it suggested to me through my think-tank of teammates or thought of it, so I can help you with our thoughts.

[MeddlingMageGR]

That is a great analysis. Welcome back Rock Lee :) This is my current decklist I love to play :

// Lands
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
5 [UNH] Forest
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 [M11] Primeval Titan

// Spells
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [US] Exploration
4 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ROE] All Is Dust
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle


I would like to hear your opinion about my mana base, and specifically about some great cards I left behind : Karakas, Tabernacle, Horizon Canopy. I wish I had room for all of them, but cutting some Forests, its proven, not the best move.

I also need help about the sideboard. And let me ask you, you always use 1 Chalice of the Void. What is the best number for it? Against what cards you use it ?

You think I have room for 1 Ulamog ? I go to 61 cards or cut something else ?

Also, do you believe that Eureka can substitute Show and Tell in monogreen ?

[Rock Lee]

You have come a long way from where you started MeddlingMage!

This list is solid in its consistency. I like 11 land tutors. This is a third variant of the deck that opts for stability over explosiveness while still providing a stable manabase. I will test it a bit to give a detailed evaluation.

5 forest was also the lowest I went with a mono-green build. I also agree on those three lands as your go-to necessary MD situational tutor lands. I wonder about running pithing needle main over Beast Within, but that is simply meta-specific.

I like the idea of Eureka, but I would strongly advise going up at least 1 eldrazi and 1 prim titan if you do that. I'll test it a bit.


Chalice in the Green version was a x4. I ran zero cmc 2's, but it was there for cmc 0 mostly. The Blue version ran 1 Chalice simply for Trinket Mage for the same reasons. Chalice @ 2 against loam is very annoying for them, but this is secondary as they buckle to crop rotate for Bog.

If you're looking for ulamog/titan room, I would look at the needle slot. I don't understand what it gives you game 1, when you already have crucible and a plethora of land tutors.

It is worth noting that without Karakas, you cannot recur Ulamog. My final land version ran Karakas specifically for my own Ulamog, in addition to the ability to go infinite for 16 mana.

[Xtreme]

I'd like to discuss all is dust vs. oblivion stone.
All is dust costs 7, though its 5 with the eye on the board. Generally if your in a position that u need dust/stone you're usually behind and thus unable to cast an eldrazi, so the manacost is pretty relevant here imo in comparison to oblivion stones 3.

Oblivion stone can be stifled. This hasnt happened to me a single time yet though. Oblivion stone also costs 1 mana more totally to use but can be divided over 2 or more turns. Stone kills your candelabras if u cant spend a turn/dont need to put a counter on them

I'm an advocate for stone, but I'd like to hear your opinions about this.

Im gonna try out Rock Lee's list as is. It's really a different deck so I cant form any opinion on it before testing. Show and telling into titan seems strong

I tried out the GW list with enlightened tutor but found that the card disadvantage made an impact in addition to tutor slowing your "clock" by a turn. Having the optimal artifact/enchantment in hand also makes the tutor redundant.

[Rock Lee]

I'd like to discuss all is dust vs. oblivion stone.
All is dust costs 7, though its 5 with the eye on the board. Generally if your in a position that u need dust/stone you're usually behind and thus unable to cast an eldrazi, so the manacost is pretty relevant here imo in comparison to oblivion stones 3.

Oblivion stone can be stifled. This hasnt happened to me a single time yet though. Oblivion stone also costs 1 mana more totally to use but can be divided over 2 or more turns. Stone kills your candelabras if u cant spend a turn/dont need to put a counter on them

I'm an advocate for stone, but I'd like to hear your opinions about this.

Im gonna try out Rock Lee's list as is. It's really a different deck so I cant form any opinion on it before testing. Show and telling into titan seems strong

I tried out the GW list with enlightened tutor but found that the card disadvantage made an impact in addition to tutor slowing your "clock" by a turn. Having the optimal artifact/enchantment in hand also makes the tutor redundant.

I tried out oblivion stone for several events, and missed top 8 in two matches both times while having oblivion stone in my hand, ugin in play, only 5 mana and staring down lethal colored damage. In a vacuum, 8 mana seems paltry compared to 7 with this deck, however the difference between the two is enormous. 7 is relatively easily acquired in this deck, 2x glimmerpost 1x cloudpost /w candelabra or 1x glimmerpost 2x cloudpost , but 8 requires 3 cloudposts. Additionally when you're on the ropes, they rarely will hit Ugin, but frequently will hit your Cloudposts, and the 5 mana threshold slighs well into Primeval titan the next turn.

O Stone does more and is incredibly strong, but after significant testing I went back to All is Dust.

Also I've had O Stone Pridemage'd for my loss when i was at 7 mana and had to wait a turn.

[MeddlingMageGR]

If you're looking for ulamog/titan room, I would look at the needle slot. I don't understand what it gives you game 1, when you already have crucible and a plethora of land tutors.


It is "vital importance" to keep not only Cloudposts, but Glacial Chasm alive as well. Wastelands are everywhere now. This is a good reason to play 3 of them, for now. I hope i find some other reasons not use 3, but just 1.
In games 2 and 3 many opponents of mine, play Wasteland & Cranial Extraction. And here comes the query : With 11 land tutors + Explorations, 5 Forests, 3 Titans, and 2 Crucibles is the deck capable to cast "Mr.M" or "Dr.Kozi" hardcast with 15 or 13 lands ? Is it worth to continue the game after losing Cloudposts ?

In the past few days I was playtesting the mini combo Amulet of Vigor & Scapeshift. It was fun to have my Cloudposts untapped, and more fun to get (with 5 lands only) 4 Cloudposts and 1 Ugin. I was desperate to find a way not to cast posts from an early time. But practically, even if that sounds good, it doesnt have the result I expected!!!

About SB, here is my try for the tournament tommorrow

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage - for Reanimator, Dredge, Progenitus
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere - for Burn, Affinity, Storm
SB: 1 [MR] Oblivion Stone - for Affinity, Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap - for Storn
SB: 4 [OD] Moment's Peace - for Affinity, Goblins, RW stompy

[Vacrix]

I wonder if Elephant Grass could replace Moment's Peace in your SB. This deck has plenty of mana to support Grass while your setting up and it slows them down for a lot longer than Moment's Peace can. Moment's Peace limits you to two extra turns against aggro. Elephant Grass makes them choose between attacking with stuff, and playing stuff. Also, Expedition Map looks subpar compared to Living Wish, which can grab you not only land but Eldrazi.. and it costs 1 less than Expedition Map. Living Wish would also increase your virtual creature density by +4, which is pretty important if the opponent can manage to land, say, a removal spell, and 2 countermagic to deal with 3 of your 6 dudes.

Also.. Autumn's Veil. Its on color, and its essentially a Chant to protect your combo but it might also have some application against black spot removal like Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse. Just a thought.

[MeddlingMageGR]

I wonder if Elephant Grass could replace Moment's Peace in your SB. This deck has plenty of mana to support Grass while your setting up and it slows them down for a lot longer than Moment's Peace can. Moment's Peace limits you to two extra turns against aggro. Elephant Grass makes them choose between attacking with stuff, and playing stuff. Also, Expedition Map looks subpar compared to Living Wish, which can grab you not only land but Eldrazi.. and it costs 1 less than Expedition Map. Living Wish would also increase your virtual creature density by +4, which is pretty important if the opponent can manage to land, say, a removal spell, and 2 countermagic to deal with 3 of your 6 dudes.

Also.. Autumn's Veil. Its on color, and its essentially a Chant to protect your combo but it might also have some application against black spot removal like Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse. Just a thought.

Elephant Grace does not prevent a single creature to attack.. . Cannot stop a heavy Tarmogoyf or a turn 2 Phyrexian Dreadnought, or even a Progenitus. Dont forget that behind defence (Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, Moment's Peace), there is always somewhere an All is Dust and 4 Sensei's Top to search it. So these 2 rounds (and probably 2 more) are very important.
To play Living Wish, you must have an active sideboard. Including all 12 post lands in maindeck, which land you suggest me to have in sb? The only land I believe its relevant, its Eldrazi Temple. But its too weak. I wont waste 4 slots in main, and 4 slots is sideboard for something so "lowpowered". Btw, Expedition Map is so strong, that its potition is unnegotiable. Its a part of the 11 land tutors + 4 Exploration to cast them fast. Even Explore is not good for this deck.

Its usefull to know that Primeval Titan is not in there for its 6/6 body. Its there for its first ability. I know he wont survive for a 2nd turn, and its not necessary to survive. If he does, its a victory. The same for Kozilek. He is there for his drawing ability. The only protection I gave him, is Karakas.

About Autumn's Veil... i dont see how that spell would help Turbo Eldrazi. As a SB card against Counters? Defense Grid is much much better.

[Rock Lee]

It is "vital importance" to keep not only Cloudposts, but Glacial Chasm alive as well. Wastelands are everywhere now. This is a good reason to play 3 of them, for now. I hope i find some other reasons not use 3, but just 1.
In games 2 and 3 many opponents of mine, play Wasteland & Cranial Extraction. And here comes the query : With 11 land tutors + Explorations, 5 Forests, 3 Titans, and 2 Crucibles is the deck capable to cast "Mr.M" or "Dr.Kozi" hardcast with 15 or 13 lands ? Is it worth to continue the game after losing Cloudposts ?

In the past few days I was playtesting the mini combo Amulet of Vigor & Scapeshift. It was fun to have my Cloudposts untapped, and more fun to get (with 5 lands only) 4 Cloudposts and 1 Ugin. I was desperate to find a way not to cast posts from an early time. But practically, even if that sounds good, it doesnt have the result I expected!!!

About SB, here is my try for the tournament tommorrow

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage - for Reanimator, Dredge, Progenitus
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere - for Burn, Affinity, Storm
SB: 1 [MR] Oblivion Stone - for Affinity, Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap - for Storn
SB: 4 [OD] Moment's Peace - for Affinity, Goblins, RW stompy

I dont' blink when my cloudposts get surgical extracted. Don't get me wrong, I try not to let that happen, but I never concede a game just because of that. Prim Titan is still your avenue of victory. Remember koz is only 8 mana and ulamog 9. I've cast emrakul without a single cloudpost before, you just can't go infinite, simply 2 for every 1 of their turns forever. Also, Most decks cannot deal with 6/6 beatdown, especially if you're multi-bogging them and gaining gads of life.

Also remember you can bog yourself, crypt yourself, exile card/graves in any fashion like Faerie Macabre, to avoid surgical extract.

I would not drop moment's peace at all. The card is monsterously good. I tested several blue versions with no force on the main and moment's peace since I bring it in against most matchups, but found force's stability just better for my sanity MD.

IMO 3Sphere is too slow to beat Storm, and you should beat burn anyway with your copious amounts of lifegain. I dislike only having 3 Dredge/Reanimator cards in the side and would go up surgical extracts if you don't want to run chalice in the SB over 3sphere.

Also remember Karakas is a reanimator answer since the only dangerous dude is Jin-Gitaxis.

Beware with Scapeshift since your vesuva has to choose a land already in play, and cannot copy another land entering "simultaneously" so if you sac all your lands you can't Vesuva a Cloudpost you search for. Same thing applies to Primeval Titan searches.

[Vacrix]

I'd think you would want to at least play a Vesuva in the sideboard so you can have +4 copies of it. I don't see how Expedition Map could be better than Living Wish. Map costs an entire mana more and it can't fetch creatures. Whats the advantage? It would still give you 11 land search only you'll have more options for creatures. A Living Wish board might look like..
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tabernacle at Pendrill Vale
1 Vesuva
1 Wasteland
1 Emrakul
1 Utility creature (Gaea's Revenge, Multani, Maro Sorcerer, Thalia, etc.)

6 Slots might be a lot of space but it would allow you to push a creature through against a control deck playing heavy countermagic.

If the non-Emrakul creatures are there for reasons other than, drop a fatty to win.. then why wouldn't you instead just go for something that helps you just win on the spot or get a superior board position? The double G in Titan's mana cost with only 7 green sources makes me think its going to be hard to sneak him in on turn 3 consistently. Also, Terastodon would be great here. It costs 2 more than Titan but you can potentially get 18 power on the field, and 9 even if Terastadon gets killed. It also can deal with troublesome non-creature permanents. For the same cost, Liege of the Tangle is pretty good. With just one swing you're going to have a shit ton of 8/8 lands, even if Liege disappears. These creatures secure the win better than preparing for the next Eldrazi drop would.

Elephant Grass isn't that bad. It prevents them from racking up damage quickly. If you can't make an Eldrazi drop that wins the game that turn, ie. Emrakul because you get the extra turn, then you might just die after Moment's Peace runs out. 2 Turns isn't going to save you if they kill you on the third. I figure Elephant Grass helps you out between turns 2 and 6. If you haven't dropped a guy by then, You've probably lost. Its not nearly as mana intensive on you since the entire deck is chalk full of land search. Goyf isn't going to be huge against you. By the time that it is, you've already dropped a guy or he'll have trouble attacking with multiple dudes at once because of Elephant Grass. One Goyf isn't a clock. Also, if they are limited to the number of creatures they can attack with, and you drop a dude to block, the Elephant Grass still helps. Either they waste attack phases playing creatures, or pay a bunch of mana to attack but they are stuck between those. It also prevents Zoo and such from closing on your life total quickly because they won't be able to attack and play reach spells. Its especially good against Goblins and Elves who won't have a lot of land to begin with, and need to swarm their opponents to win. I've been playing it in Stasis and it gives me a good 4 extra turns usually, even more of the opponent can't get enough lands down. Also, you can drop it much earlier and it will stay around for a while against faster decks, and it helps you in the long run against Empty the Warrens. I see Moment's Peace being good if every creature you dropped could win you the game but I don't see it being optimal in a deck that plays 4 non-Emrakul win conditions of the 6.. You need to drop a creature quickly or you lose. Even if you get them when they overcommit with All is Dust, you still have to deal with reach spells and can get set back quite a few turns with a single removal spell. Also, the fact that Elephant Grass lasts longer means with SDT you can attempt to chain them together as the upkeep gets too costly and make Elephant Grass a semi-permanent board state. As an example, I've been playing Chain of Vapor on Elephant Grass in Stasis, and when I drop it the 2nd time I'm good for another 3 turns. With SDT and lots of shuffle effects you can replicate that experience.

I agree about Defense Grid vs. Autumn's Viel. Grid is much better.



EDIT:
Also... Elephant Grass has quite the synergy with Tabernacle. Paying 1 per creature is quite a lot as it is if you are playing more than 1. Tack 2 on to that per creature and you are looking at 6 mana per turn for just 2 creatures.

[Rock Lee]

Said many things....

I was going to reply point-by-point and explain the numerous instances where you are expressing a candid lack of experience even playing the deck, but then I realized you are either an incredible troll, or really adorable and like talking about decks you haven't playtested.

Either way, the solution is to play the deck.

This deck works, it has won tournaments with an extremely low metagame presence. The only reason it isn't on the "decks to beat" forums is because MTGSource Admins are sticklers who only succumb to the public masses when it comes to dictating viable and contentious decks.

The innovations mentioned by several people in this deck aren't attempts to allow for an archetype to be formed, but rather exploring the multitudinous competitive facets that this deck can be expressed. Playtest a bit (meaning at least 5 matches two-fisted versus every major archetype) and then come back and we can talk about our ideas.

[Vacrix]

Heh fine I'll playtest it a bit but there's no way I'm playing Moment's Peace and Titan. I'll let reality prove me wrong. Btw its easy to claim troll so you don't have to have an actual conversation about cards you disagree about. I provide logical points and multiple examples, when I could just rant about the fact that this deck only plays 2 win conditions that will actually get to the finish line in Legacy. One removal spell or countermagic should be expected. 10 mana should win you the game, not draw you 4 cards. 6 mana should do something better than give you 2-4 lands so you can drop something else. If you want something cheap to hold the fort and help you set up, you might as well be playing Batterskull or Thrun.

Seriously though, the most surprising rejection here is Living Wish. You are passing on +4 Emrakul? Its easily your best win condition. Uncounterable, untargetable, wins the game on the spot.. Thats what you need in Legacy unless you want to stay in the Developmental forum. Otherwise you'll keep losing games to a Knight of the Reliquary the costs half the price of your Titan but is just as big, and the PtE or Swords that eats your Kozelik.

[Rock Lee]

Said a bunch more without actually testing....

Maybe I should make a compiled list of "cards I have considered" That would be amusing. That way troll/novices can check on it before ranting.

[MeddlingMageGR]

Vacrix, you re so wrong to everything you said. Just play the deck man... mine or Rock's list. Play it not just 1 or 2 times, but for an entire month. Then you realize your enormous mistakes.

[MeddlingMageGR]

Grafdigger's Cage or Ground Seal ?

Ground Seal stops Snapcaster Mage, Life from the Loam, Scavenging Ooze, extirpate, Reanimator and some others. Plus, it gets you a card when comes into play.

[Xtreme]

My version is is actually the exact same to meddlingmages with -1 pithing needle +1 candelabra.

Im gonna have to respectfully agree and hope you try out the titans. I cant remember a game I lost after resolving a Titan though it might have happened. Titan forces them to deal with the additional threats of the +2 lands and the titan itself to not get overrun next turn.

[Vacrix]

I've played a solid 20 real games on Cockatrice. I tried Elephant Grass and Living Wish, but I cut Pithing Needles so I could also run Expedition Map. The purpose of map has been primarily to find a green source with posts. Having additional creature search was nice; when I was ready with the right amount of mana, I could always drop a creature. I decided to try Primeval Titan and see what all the hype was about. Turns out its a utility creature, not a win condition, something easily explained. I found that dropping it leads to a win if you know what you're doing, ie. Glimmerpost tricks to put yourself out of reach spell range, Chasm to close them off from winning with creatures (though this gets tricky if you can't attack), or Tabernacle to wipe their board..

Elephant Grass was completely unnecessary most times when I boarded it in, as was Moment's Peace; Glimmerpost gains you enough life to put you out of reach spell range and Tabernacle keeps them off of their creatures (especially if you get down Needle --> Wasteland). The best of the innovations I tried was certainly Terastadon. Card is a fucking BEAST. If it hit the board, I won. I'm sure you guys have run into Liliana of the Veil. This card is ridiculously good against us. We can't put a clock on Liliana and we can't get rid of it unless we play Needle or All is Dust. Liliana nukes your hand until she gets to 6, and then she can nuke half of your board, which is extremely devastating given that you need every land to drop a dude. Once you drop a dude, she can make you sacrifice him, even Emrakul. Jace presents a similar problem, though not quite as daunting. Terastadon has been dealing with walkers nicely, and equipment. In a few games, my opponent had multiple equipment on the field. Terastadon got rid of all of them and proceeded to take the game. Another game, I was able to completely lock my opponent out of the game by playing Terastadon, destroying his three lands (after one Wasteland on his fourth), and then drop Tabernacle to destroy his team, and my 3 Elephant tokens. Fantastic synergy there. Lighter synergy, but synergy, I've destroyed my Glimmerposts to make 18 power on my side, and then use Crucible to bring them back and gain more life and put myself out of Burn range (against Burn). I think Terastadon is way better than Kozelik. Kozelik draws you 4 cards but thats pretty much only good with Exploration. Terastadon is 2 cheaper than Kozelik, he can actually target the troublesome permanents the turn he hits play rather than upon attack so you still get something out of it even if he eats swords, and Terastadon can put 18 power on the field vs. Kozelik's 12.. though usually you play Terastadon for 15 and destroy one of their troublesome permanents. I tried Kozelik and every time I was wishing it was Terastadon. Give him a try. I've been playing a 7 creature list 2 Emrakul, 3 Titan, 2 Terastadon. I've wanted Kozelik to be in the deck a few times when I had Eye and not enough land to play Emrakul, but the deck pulled its weight without Kozelik and I won those games anyway.

In regards to Living Wish, its good and I think it makes the deck more consistent in some respects, but the deck needs to run Pithing Needle so I dropped Wish. Expedition Map is unfortunately necessary because you need ways to find a Forest for colorless mana.

Also, as much as I like SDT.. I think this deck can make use of Sylvan Library. Against some decks, Glimmerposts leave me with more life than I can use, but I sit on a top drawing one card per turn, and am forced to wait a turn sometimes if I want to keep the top and play the shuffle effect next turn. Library would allow the deck to be really explosive with Exploration. Glimmerpost x2, shuffle effect. Next turn, Vesuva, Titan.. etc. Paying 8 life can go a long way with this deck, and it has the resources to do it more than once.

Other than that, this deck is the most fun I've had playing Magic in quite a long time. The deck is easy to play and has a lot of complex interactions for a deck thats seemingly 'just trying to drop a fatty'. I've been able to even race Burn every game, which was surprising to me, but Glimmerposts really kick ass. Crop Rotation into early Tabernacle screwed a lot of decks, destroying acceleration plays like Noble Hierarchs and GSZ --> Dryad Arbor. I had trouble against Sneak/Show. Needle helped but they simply drop Emrakul faster. I played one HILARIOUS game against some scrub but he kicked my ass... with Elvish Piper. Both games.. turn 4 Elvish Piper, turn 5 Emrakul. Couldn't beat it. Laughed my ass off though. I'll be playing this deck on Cockatrice for a while.

Considering this deck has the availability of fetches and crucibles, have splashes been considered? And if so, what colors/cards?

[MeddlingMageGR]

First of all, im really happy you understand the power of Primeval Titan and how useless is Elephant Grass.
About the "Terastodon" issue : Think a little different. No one said that Tera is not a great creature. We just say that is out of the deck's philosophy. It has no synergy with Turbo Eldrazi. His ability is to destroy, and for that we already have All is Dust. If you think 3 All is Dust are not enough, add more. Furthermore, he has nothing to offer to our goal (remember his role in Reanimator and how quickly clears the board in 2nd turn), who is "how to cast Emrakul as soon as possible" Elvish Piper? Great creature too. Why dont we add him too? Mmm... its obviously "out of the philosophy". (first about your games vs Piper, you had to needle him, or if Emrakul entered the battlefield returned him with Karakas)

We dont want to win with Terostodon, or with Show and Tell, or with Eureka, or with Piper, or with Tooth and Nail. We have a purpose, and we must stay strictly to the lines. It was a bad move, you cut Pithing Needles. Needles stop Plainswalkers, and Wastelands among other threats.

Terastodon is no way better than Kozilek. Kozilek is a 12/12 creature with an Ancestral Recall+1 attached to him (Emrakul has Time Walk) and with no drawbacks like Terastrodon. Plus he destroys too, not 3 but 4 permanents (next turn if survives - use Karakas on him). If you love to Destroy pemanents, use Ulamog (+Karakas). But in your games, you focused on Terastodon, you probably have won some games with him forgetting your target, and you thought you found the "golden hen". But you deceived :smile:

"Sylvan Lirary" issue : Not only is slower than SDT, but needs a G mana as well. Searches only in upkeep (that's bad), and is destroyed with All is Dust. With the same casting cost i prefer to play Sylvan Scrying, than Sylvan Library. So, no. Its not a good card for the deck.

Feel free to discuss your thought.

[Vacrix]

Puzzling.. I must have left Karakas out of the maindeck. That would certainly help against quite a few decks, namely Sneak/Show and Reanimator. Those decks were tripping me up in testing, that should fix that problem.

I still disagree about Terastodon. All is Dust is great and all but remember that it doesn't hit equipment. Also, they can always counter your spells dude. All is Dust and Pithing Needle are great targets. All is Dust gets rid of their clock and Needle stops their Wasteland, equipment, etc. Having more answers to permanents in a deck like this is huge. Annhiliator gets there but you have to attack with it. Honestly I find that my first creature gets killed/removed. Its nice when you know you can blow up your opponents 3 lands and then drop Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, even if you lose Terastodon. That usually leaves them with 1 creature at best by the time I've dropped Tabernacle. Its an excellent play, and you can blow up basic lands with it, leaving the rest to fall victim to Wasteland or Wastelock. I actually make this play more often than making 18 power, or destroying equipment, etc. It just wrecks them.

Its bigger (18/15/12/9 vs. 12) most of the time for 2 mana cheaper (6GG vs. 10). There was one game worth mentioning against Land.dec. I wouldn't have been able to get through with Kozelik because he was Loaming like a bitch with Manabond. He kept Terastodon tied down with Maze of Ith, but my Elephant tokens got through to kill him in 3 turns.

Is drawing 4 cards really that good in this deck? I haven't found it to be as overwhelming as Primeval Titan. Titan gives you card quality. It gives you a combination of 2 lands that manipulates the situation to your favor. Such as.. double Glimmerpost ie. gain somewhere between 7 to 15 life, or Wasteland w/ active Crucible, or Cloudpost/Eye, or Tabernacle, etc. Drawing 4 cards doesn't guarentee you much of anything. Those could be extra Crucibles/Explorations/Candelabras that you don't need after you've resolved a fatty. Even with Eye of Ugin making him 2 cheaper, he's just not the right investment for 8-10 mana that this deck wants to make. Terastodon seals the game with 18 power, destroys lands to drop Tabernacle, or blows up key pieces of equipment and/or walkers. In other words, Terastodon has produced a winning board situation everytime I've dropped him where Kozelik cannot; even if he gets STP'd. He even lays down 4 blockers, a reasonable sized team, for when you really need to hold back and set up your kill. Kozelik cannot do these things. He's purely a fatty that destroys stuff when he attacks, and he refills your hand a little.

EDIT:
More on splashes... has anyone considered a splash? I can't begin to think of what to run but the manabase can already support green. Those could easily be duals. Its not like they are going to gain much out of destroying your non-basics when they lose to Cloudposts.

[MeddlingMageGR]

I don't know what else to say. You are confused between Eldrazi deck and Terastodon deck. You think are the same :( Build a Terastodone deck with 4 of them, drop Kozilek and Emrakul, and create something new :) Probably you win with Terastodone all the time.... but this is not an Eldrazi deck my friend. Open a new threat to find help :)

Terastodone does not destroy permanents if its countered. But with Kozilek you draw 4 cards even if he get. And shuflles back to the library, while Tera is remaining dead in the grave. Thats a big drawback.

[Vacrix]

Yeah you can stick to Eldrazi as your creatures if you like.. that doesn't mean you are playing the optimal creatures (this argument is pretty bad anyway if you consider Titan). Merfolk didn't decide against Phantasmal Image cause it wasn't a Merfolk. Dragon Stompy plays Gathan Raiders. Who cares what the dam creature type is? Eye of Ugin cutting Kozelik down to 8 mana makes him playable, he's way overcosted at 10 imo. Still, I'm not dropping the Eldrazi entirely just playing better creatures.

Drawing 4 cards for 12 mana is terrible, even if you can't counter that effect. The point is what happens when the creature resolves; this drawback is barely worth noting. If you are really worried about running into countermagic, you drop Emrakul or you play more creatures that can't be countered.

My point is simple; Terastodon has a much stronger board presence than Koziliek. You're putting a game ending amount of power on the board (18), blowing your opponent's land up into Tabernacle, destroying key pieces of equipment and/or walkers, and you have the option of laying down 4 blockers.

Koziliek draws you 4 cards, swings for 12, and destroys 4 permanents of the opponent's choice every time it attacks. But... it loses to an active walker. It loses to a removal spell. It loses to certain equipment. It also loses to a superior board presence on the other side. If they have a bunch of creatures, you'd wish you had the Tabernacle + Terastodon play available, or 4 creatures to hold the fort.

Terastodon can provide a lasting board presence even if it dies. Koziliek will merely draw refill your hand.

It would be nice if you could provide a better counterargument than 'build a Terastodon deck'. I'm actually interested in this deck so it would be nice if you took me more seriously. Stop being a slave to the theme. You don't need to run 6 out of 6 Eldrazi creatures for it to be Turbo Eldrazi.. half the creatures you run aren't Eldrazi anyway.


All is Dust destroying Sylvan Library is pretty imporant. I guess SDT is better.

[MeddlingMageGR]

It would be nice if you could provide a better counterargument than 'build a Terastodon deck'. I'm actually interested in this deck so it would be nice if you took me more seriously. Stop being a slave to the theme. You don't need to run 6 out of 6 Eldrazi creatures for it to be Turbo Eldrazi.. half the creatures you run aren't Eldrazi anyway.


All is Dust destroying Sylvan Library is pretty imporant. I guess SDT is better.

I tried to explain you step by step, every choice in this deck. Let me do it again one more time, to come to a conclusion : Do you agree that Emrakul is a better win condition than Terastodon? Yes you agree. Why? Because a) Its uncounterable, b) Its untouchable, c) It has continues* time walk, d) it has annihilator e) its flier f) its 15/15 g) its Legendary creature, and that matters.
Is it worth to built something and win with him? Yes it is. Why? Because by the time you find 20 mana and Emrakul hits the board, he will never leave. *Opponent will never play again. So you will have as many turns as you want, until you leave him without permanents. The combo here is to bring and play again and again Emrakul. Using Eye to fetch the 2nd and cast him, or use Karakas to bounch him. If you use Eye of Ugin, and cast the 2nd Emrakul, you deserve a 2nd turn. By the time he enters the battlefield, both die due to Legendary rule. But you dont care, because you still play again. Its your turn, you play again. Bring him back. Time walk. You play again. Attack for 15 and annihilator 6. Opponent still lives? Bring him again. Legend rule, but you play again. both dies. Eye again, you bring him back, you play again. Attack for 15 and annihilator 6. And thats all.... play again and again.. With that way you just dont win the game with 18dmg... pfff..., but you really demolish the opponent. He loses everything and im not talking about his permanents, im talking about "hope" for the 2nd game. The fascinating about this deck is that breaks down 3 basic rules of magic : a) 1 mana per land, b) 1 land per turn, c) 1 turn per player.

So, its important to use Emrakul to win, more that any other win condition you have. For example Terastodon is not a good win condition because it gets countered. And even if he enters the board, you re not sure that you win because you give the next turn to the opponent. For example what you do against Humility Nothing. Terastodon is a 1/1 creature that has lost the ability to destroy. And here comes Kozilek AND Ulamog. Kozilek let you draw 4 cards (probably All is Dust inside) and he is still a Legend even in 1/1 form. That means that you may use Katakas for extra 4 cards + 4 cards..... And Ulamog destroy things "straight from the stack". Before enters in.
You must understand that all the deck has designed around Emrakul, and how quickly can get the 15 or 20 mana. Post lands, Candelabras, 11 tutor lands, Explorations, and Titans are here to help you to get 20 mana. Kozilek gives you useful cards, that brings you mana. Kozilek is not a win condition in here. His purpose is to collect cards for mana. His other abilities just help the game as well. And dont compare : "Aaa... Terastodone won me 20 games, and Kozilek 0". You CHOOSE to win with Terastodone. But the plan was to win with Emrakul. For the reasons I wrote on the first paragraph.

So, win with this god dammed Emrakul, you have all the weapons to do so. Drop Terastodon, because its really a shame to this deck. If you dont win with Em, dont win at all...

[Vacrix]

What.. the fuck...

There's absolutely NO argument here against Emrakul by the way I have no idea how you inferred that. Why would I replace Emrakul? Dudes a baller. Kozelik is the guy I replaced. Thats your whole first paragraph..

Dude. I win with Titan against some decks. I just played a few games against a guy on Discard. He nuked my hand, I managed to land Titan, one swing in and he scooped. Same thing against Burn. Emrakul is great and all, but its not integral to the strategy against EVERY opponent, just opponent's playing countermagic where you have a lot of time to set up a kill, or opponent's who will surely remove your fatty with STP or PtE, etc.

If I can put my opponent on countermagic then I don't bother with Terastodon unless I am in a win now or never situation.. or just have mana to spare. Against Humility? Ok.. and who's playing Humility again? Nobody. Your deck is dead in the water against Humility anyway unless you manage to draw Ulamog and are playing him.

I don't understand this argument... If I have 6GG why should I try mana ramping to 20 to cycle to infinite turns when I can just close the game with some variation on Terastodon? I've mentioned the variations on board position he presents MANY times so I'm not going to go over it again. Are you saying those aren't strong enough for an 8cc creature? You don't need to use another Eldrazi to setup the kill if you can just kill with Terastodon. I just see the play 'LOL GO FOR EMRAKULS""SSSSS' in every single game as win more. For instance, if you can win with Kozelik do you wait and go for Emrakul? Obviously not.. you kill them. If they remove your dude, then you drop Emrakul and kill them.

However, the situations that Ulamog and Koziliek get you out of don't compare to Terastodon. Ulamog gets you out of Humility. Great. I actually like Ulamog way more than Koziliek and have considered running a singleton in place of a Terastodon, but still I think that Terastodon gets you out of way more situations than the other Eldrazi ever could.


And dont compare : "Aaa... Terastodone won me 20 games, and Kozilek 0". You CHOOSE to win with Terastodone. But the plan was to win with Emrakul. For the reasons I wrote on the first paragraph.

So, win with this god dammed Emrakul, you have all the weapons to do so. Drop Terastodon, because its really a shame to this deck. If you dont win with Em, dont win at all...
What? Who said the plan was win with Emrakul or bust? The plan is win with fat guys whilst setting up the Emrakul kill. Sometimes you have to fetch ALOT of Glimmerposts once you stablize or else Burn is going to get you with reach spells. I'd say I win with Emrakul in less than half my games. Titan pulls its weight and can beast out a win on its own against some decks. I think you give Emrakul too much credit. Honestly, I usually drop a Titan, which gets killed. Then I drop Terastodon and seal the board state. If I get a swing in with Titan then I usually have enough resources to get Eye and another post, and set up the Emrakul kill.


EDIT:
I suggest you test it before you pass judgement on it.

[wert]

I must first make a disclaimer that I only played a dozen or so games with rocklee's list. It is a complicated deck and there are many lines of play. It would take practice to make better choices. Many small things can make the difference of 1 turn or more, like when to use Expedition Map, what to fetch with it etc. Timing and land decision is everything in this deck. Many times, I find myself missing a better line of play due to inexperience with the deck. You need to be very familiar and very aware to play this deck to the best effects. The mono green version is easier to play and faster but UG has more lines of play with Show and Tell.

I have a question, is Glacial Chasm really necessary for the deck? In the main deck at least? Is it used as an insurance against fast decks?

@Vacrix
I think you missed the boat on Terastodon. The whole point is having tutorable fatties with Eye of Ugin. Terastondon isn't bad, but the fact that it isn't tutorable, makes it a poorer choice than Kozelik or Ulamog. I mean what's wrong with both of them anyway? They are both devastating when casted, removal or not.