control in a fast format?

[thatoneguy]

I have noticed that legacy is fast, much faster than extended or standard (I just started with legacy). Every deck i have seen or played against, besides stacks and countertop, is a fast combo or aggro deck. Within such a fast format, how do you control for this? Control style decks are out there, and each has some flavor. I don't want to ask a dumb question, but i just might have too. This may be dependant upon the metagame, but is control a good idea when everything happens so fast? Would mystical teachings be a really bad idea or should someone try a mono white control? Does anyone have opinions on this topic, control within a format that is so fast, or should this idea be forgotten?

[Nessaja]

There are better/faster control cards in Legacy, certainly better then Mystical Teachings.

The Rock is GWB control, Landstill is UWx control, Quinn is a mono W control deck, Stax is also brown/W deck,Trisomy 21/Train Wreck is a BGw control deck, Countertop control decks (Uwr/Ubr..), Dreadstill (Ur)..

Lots of viable options out there.

[(nameless one)]

Pox, 43Lands and Enchantress are also established control decks.

Although, the problem with control decks (outside of some CounterTop builds) is that I find that they have to be meta-specific. This is why they rarely make top8s of a huge tournament.

I could be wrong but I would never take my Quinn deck on an SCG event. Just the local store meta since you know what youre going to expect.

[thatoneguy]

A better question to ask would be, what forms of control work the best? Skrewing them on mana, counter spells, hand disruption, or some secret trick i don't know about yet. How does a control deck deal with some one who can drop a turn one 6/4? or what do you do to control someone elses control in legacy? does this work the same way as in standard, or is there some trick to it?
These questions would probably be more easily answered if i knew the cardpool better.

[TylerB]

force of will, daze, spell pierce, counterbalance, jace the mindsculptor, spell snare
to answer your questions.

[Lemnear]

First you have to know your enemy. Are you facing Aggro, Control or Combo? If opponents in your meta tend to Play fast scary creatures you have to play fast spot-removal for them like swords to plowshares. Do they swarm creatures? Wrath of god or firespout them. If you play against Lot of combo you have to react playing counter, discard or hatebears.

Mana denial as a strategy is very depending on the Meta and only works well in times people tend to Play <20 lands or have a critical Lands-manacost-ratio. Today people tend to play more stable manabases with >20 Lands so mana denial's gotten worse unless you play a good Tempo-deck.

Control matchups in Legacy are more skill-related than in Standard. Timing is crucial. Imagine: in a countertop-mirror an opponent resolves a tarmogoyf and while you dig for a solution he lands the namesake softlock ... Screwed! Play a turn 4 jace? Combo you out my turn cuz you tapped out!

In deed, most of your questions will be answered by reading reports and knowing the few cards that really matter. Moreover, do yourself a favor and NEVER simply ask "what's played in this deck?" considering a deck. Ask for the reason to play it; understand the idea. That's the reason many player fuck up playing vendillion Clique correctly.

[Rico Suave]

There are 2 unique problems to playing control in Legacy.

1) The format is fast, as you've noted. As your opponent's threats become faster, your reaction must also become faster. This is not an insurmountable problem, because the format's card pool and depth allows you to find a cheap and efficient answer to anything your opponent might be able to present. You don't have time to answer a Goblin Lackey with a 2cc Journey to Nowhere, but you can Swords to Plowshare it or Path to Exile it. You can't Go for the Throat that Lackey, but you can use Snuff Out.

Wrath of God is a poor card in Legacy because it is so slow, but Firespout is an excellent board sweeper. You won't see Counterspell much, but Spell Snare is very good. Speed is of the utmost in value.

2) The other problem with control in Legacy is due to the wide array of strategies that your opponent might be playing. There are dozens and dozens of viable decks in this format, and they will all try to attack you from different angles. If you are playing the wrong answer to their threats, you will probably lose. One round your opponent will attack you with quick creatures, the next round your opponent won't be playing any creatures at all, and the round after that your opponent will just put one creature into play like an Emrakul.

"Control" decks in Legacy struggle to adjust their decks such that they can handle every reasonable threat the opponent might play. This is one big reason why slow plodding control decks just don't exist in Legacy. You *can't* answer every threat.

---

Both of these problems tie in together because the fast and efficient answers are also the narrowest. You need to play Firespout over Wrath because the latter is too slow against fast aggro, but that Firespout doesn't help against the opponent who is playing something like Reanimator.

For what it's worth, Counter/Top is essentially the definition of control in Legacy. It is a far more proactive form of control, but you'll find that control/combo hybrids are far more popular and successful in Legacy than any kind of straight control deck.

[thatoneguy]

This is all stuff I am glad i asked, good learning experiance.

[JCrawl85]

This is all stuff I am glad i asked, good learning experiance.

A good control shell to start with (assuming you want to play blue) is:

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Firespout
Mix of Spell Pierce/Spell Snare/Counterspell

You can toy with ideas from here (e.g. whether you like Daze or not) but this is a good starting point.

[Lemnear]

A good control shell to start with (assuming you want to play blue) is:

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Firespout
Mix of Spell Pierce/Spell Snare/Counterspell

You can toy with ideas from here (e.g. whether you like Daze or not) but this is a good starting point.

Sorry, this is bullshit. Daze and firespout are only good in certain builds and special metas and not auto-includes for control. Moreover "Control" doesn't have to be blue nor is it linked to counterspells only.

Guess it's more helpful to start a lil' shout-out for most viable Legacy Control-Cards per color (and I suggest Control-cards themself not deck-staples like brainstorm):

Blue:
Force of will
Jace 2.0
Spell snare
Counterspell
Daze
Counterbalance
back to basics

Black:
Duress
Thoughtseize
Hymn To Torach
Go for the Throat
Chainer's Edict

Green:
Nature's Claim
Krosan Grip
Tarmogoyf (no doubt even it reads sometimes Funny)

White:
Swords to Plowshares
Path to exile
Wrath of God
Humility
Moat
Elspeth 1.0

Red:
Red elemental blast
Magus of the Moon
Blood moon

Multicolor:
Pernicious Deed
Maelstrom Pulse
Vindicate
Trygon predator
Firespout

Artifact:
Pithing needle
Engineered explosives
Chalice of the void


And many more .... Feel free to add more.

[nodahero]

Sensei's Divining Top.

[Rico Suave]

Uhh....

Hold on. This is a pet peave of mine.


A good control shell to start with (assuming you want to play blue) is:

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Firespout
Mix of Spell Pierce/Spell Snare/Counterspell

You can toy with ideas from here (e.g. whether you like Daze or not) but this is a good starting point.

This is the wrong way to think about it. You should never begin constructing a deck thinking "how am I going to stop my opponent." This is just silly. Stopping the opponent does not win the game.

Instead you must ask yourself "how am I going to kill my opponent?"

Once your deck has a plan, once it has a goal, once it has a fundamental core of cards that define it - now you can begin crafting a set of control cards to flesh it out and fill in the gaps as necessary.

Decks will have different plans. Here are a few common ones in Legacy:
-Assemble CB/Top or Cruc/Waste and lock my opponent out of his spells
-Player bigger creatures than my opponent like Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker
-Assemble a quick combo like Dreadnought+Stifle or Thopter+Sword
-Draw more cards than my opponent and leverage them into an overwhelming force
-Play Jace and fateseal my opponent
-Natural Order into Progenitus

All of these are proactive plans that will kill the opponent. These are what make your deck, and your control cards will need to fit in with these cards. Guess what? Some cards like Daze suck donkey balls in a deck with 3-4 copies of Jace. You can't afford to Daze if your plan is to Crucible. Daze blows in a deck that is trying to set up lots of mana for Thopter/Sword.

If your deck is Tombstalker focused, and splashes green for Goyf too, it might be a bitch trying to splash white for StP when you could maintain stability by playing Snuff Out. Decks like Dreadstill may not even want StP because it's unnecessary for their strategy.

What happens if you include Firespout in your Natural Order deck, despite the fact that at least 8 of your own important cards in the mana base are going to get nuked by it?

For the love of all things holy: build a good deck that does something good first, then fill in the control suite appropriately. You have to pick your control cards according to what your deck needs and not some arbitrary list of "good stuff" cards that may actually ruin your strategy.

/end rant

[thatoneguy]

WOuld chalice of the void go on the above list? Are cards that are related to this go on the list aswell?

[perm]

Chalice is a card completely dependent on your own mana curve really, it's a good card, but not just put in any control deck.