Challenge -- Mono Red Control (dedicated)

[4eak]

So...I've enjoyed playing mono color dedicated control decks of all colors, except red.

What is the best Mono Red Control deck you can build in Legacy?

And, by control, I do not mean any stompy/stax/moon combo-prison-control deck. I'm honestly looking for a Red deck with a board control playstyle that doesn't traditionally belong to the color. Feel free to forego any attempts to defeat combo decks altogether. I'm fine with that. Focus on board control.

Here's what I've got:

// Lands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Maze of Ith
3 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
15 Mountain

// Sweepers and Answers
4 Firespout
4 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Ratchet Bomb

// Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Chain Lightning

// Bombs
4 Burning Wish
4 Koth of the Hammer
2 Chandra Nalaar

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Hammer of Bogardan
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Banefire
SB: 1 Rolling Earthquake
SB: 1 Boiling Seas
SB: 1 Flashfires
SB: 1 Recoup
SB: 1 Call the Skybreaker
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Pithing Needle


Other thoughts:

I like having answers to enchantments (particularly CB)
Opposing control decks have to think twice about dropping PWs (normally near auto-wins in control vs. control matchups), burn is sweet. I think that is hilarious.
Grove/Fire control-combo is not terribly reliable, but still quite good
Valakut is awkward, but it gives you some inevitability
Clearly, I'm forced to rely upon colorless control options in many ways (but, I don't think this is really cheating, as almost all mono color control decks use some artifacts)
I'm not sure if I have the Wish targets I really need.
I'm unimpressed by the PWs, but I don't know what else to do.
Card manipulation is so hard to come by; SDT might be it, but I don't like how it changes the deck in some ways. Fetch lifeloss is usually acceptable, but this control deck cuts it close already on life (I'm not sure it can afford it, but if SDT's card quality is good enough that I actually take less damage overall, then it would be worthwhile). It might be worth it -- tell me why.
This is obviously not a good deck (and I don't expect it will ever be anything other than a novelty). It lacks answers to a lot of things.


Maybe you can think of something totally different (and better!). Any suggestions or decklists would be appreciated.



peace,
4eak

[mujadaddy]

Is punishing/grove just a little 'too cute '? What's the rrr lands edge? I've always wanted to see gauntlet of might busted open.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Maybe play Skred. Beyond that, um... Good luck?

[Eddy Wally]

Three Demigods instead of one Koth and the two Chandras perhaps?

[Infinitium]

Wildfire.dec seems like the obvious way to go here since it can actually attack other control decks. Otherwise red Quinn with a Scry Land/Top setup and Skred could probably work somewhat. The fact that you wouldn't be able to control any strategies except strictly creature-based ones without relying on artifacts seem ehh however. I'm too tired to whip up a list, but lotsa burn, Chandra, and Pyrostatic Pillar/REB's in the sideboard looks like givens.

EDIT: Glacial Crevasses. Neat.

EDIT2: Holy fuck Ricochet is essentially a 1-mana hatecard for Tendrils.

EDIT3: Also, not playable in sanctioned formats. Bummer.

EDIT4: Smoke might be good if it weren't for the fact that creature decks should already be soul-crushingly favorable.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

You probably want the SDT/Scrying Sheets engine of Quinn to have some draw. At that point you probably want Skred, too.

A SB Jokulhaups as a game-ender once you have a Walker in play should be good, too. Other than that I'm sure you should have some REBs/Burnouts to interact with Control.

/edit: Infinitium beat me to it.

[kabof]

Maybe somethig like this:

11x Snow Covered Mountain
01x Snow Covered Forest
04x Scrying Sheets (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Scrying Sheets)
04x Grove of the Burnwillows (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grove of the Burnwillows)
04x Wooded Foothills (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wooded Foothills)

04x Mox Diamond (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mox Diamond)
04x Sensei's Divining Top (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sensei's Divining Top)
04x Ratchet Bomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ratchet Bomb)
04x Crucible of Worlds (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Crucible of Worlds)

04x Punishing Fire (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Punishing Fire)
04x Firespout (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Firespout)
04x Burning Wish (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Burning Wish)

04x Glacial Crevasses (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Glacial%20Crevasses)

04x Koth of the Hammer (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Koth%20of%20the%20Hammer)

Sideboard:
01x Life from the Loam (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Life from the Loam)
01x Reverent Silence (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Reverent Silence)
01x Shattering Spree (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Shattering Spree)
01x Banefire (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Banefire)
02x Krosan Grip (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Krosan Grip)
03x Pyrostatic Pillar (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pyrostatic Pillar)
03x Relic of Progenitus (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Relic of Progenitus)
03x Pithing Needle (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pithing Needle)

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Koth/ Burning Wish-> profit? seem a little light as the lone win conditions. Also, fetches with Scrying Sheets is usually a no-no.

[kabof]

Yeah, I didn't give my list a lot of playtesting. Maze of Ith is problably a better option in the place of the Sheets. Anyway, you can also kill with Punishing Fire. Also, I'm pretty unsure about the sideboard.

[Gui]

I don't know if that counts, but, there was this RG Stax once, I believe Emidln made it.
It was a welder based stax, and it had a modifyed mono :r: version.
Pretty controlish and monored, although using all the stax base all the same.

I think its name was Sun Tower, or Aether Tower...

If I recall correcly, it ran Smokestack, Uba Mask, Esnaring Bridge, Aether Flash, Chalice & Trini, Wastelock with Crucible and killed with, uh, Mishras and Barbarian Ring oO

The RG version had the Sylvan+Uba trick, I don't remember what the monored version used instead.

Oh, and it used Rolling Earthquake! xD

[4eak]

@ mujadaddy

Is punishing/grove just a little 'too cute '?

Perhaps. A lot of the decks where I want this combo the most also have Wasteland to keep me from having it. If it does go online, it does a pretty good job, I think. Later in the game, multiple Fires can actually act as a win con (which this deck lacks).


What's the rrr lands edge?

Seismic Assault is interesting. I've found I always want to be making my land drops. I think Seismic Assault is substantially better with Loam, and probably unplayable otherwise.

@ DukeDemonKn1ght

Maybe play Skred.

I think I prefer 1 for 3 damage more than Skred because I really just need to make sure I can get to the late game, I think. I think Skred isn't good early-game removal, and that is likely what we need.

@ Eddy Wally

Three Demigods instead of one Koth and the two Chandras perhaps?

I'll try it out. I'm skeptical though. Choosing win cons for a control deck is very difficult. Demigod isn't immune to StP, and that is a big strike against it for a deck that can't prevent StP. Ideally, your wincons serve well in both control and beatdown roles. This isn't easy to find for mono red.

@ Infinitium

Wildfire.dec seems like the obvious way to go here since it can actually attack other control decks.

Except that I'm specifically avoiding combo-prison-control decks (as I said before). Obviously, Wildfire is a better deck. I'm fine with that.


Otherwise red Quinn with a Scry Land/Top setup

Testing it (I like real card advantage). Shuffle effects are greatly wanted. I want to avoid fetches for multiple reasons. Any ideas?


Glacial Crevasses. Neat. Smoke might be good if it weren't for the fact that creature decks should already be soul-crushingly favorable.

While neat, I don't like the Crevasses so much.

I've also considered Aether Flash as well. Creature decks are not soul-crushingly favorable, imho. Clearly, that is a bad sign, lol. I will try them out, Smoke + maze seems pretty interesting.

@ Mon,Goblin Chief

A SB Jokulhaups as a game-ender once you have a Walker in play should be good, too.

Well, Jokulhaups is interesting, but it actually sucks with Koth. That said, I'm perfectly willing to get rid of Koth. Jokulhaups/Obliterate are powerful, and worth considering for many other situations.


Other than that I'm sure you should have some REBs/Burnouts to interact with Control.

Will do. As is said, many control decks are relying upon Walkers, and Burn is exceptional against opposing walkers. Interacting with their win cons is a large part of the battle.

@ kabof

Tempting as it may be, I'm not going to splash. Mono red in the strictest sense. I will immediately agree that the green splash would improve the deck. It isn't the point of the exercise, for me, unfortunately.


Yeah, I didn't give my list a lot of playtesting. Maze of Ith is problably a better option in the place of the Sheets.

I'm actually fine with having both Ith and Sheets in a deck. My best MWC decklist runs both (that deck is a nightmare for a lot of the format -- it just can't win 2 games in 50 minutes).

@ Gui


I don't know if that counts, but, there was this RG Stax once

Aye. I believe I've played it. That, unfortunately, is not the aim of the exercise.



peace,
4eak

[Fuzzy]

No Thawing Glaciers? =(

[Admiral_Arzar]

I had an old casual deck, built for multiplayer games, that used Repercussion + sweepers (Flamebreak, Earthquake, Starstorm) to deal massive amounts of damage. You should try implementing that - although I'm not sure it's any good, it's certainly hilarious when it works. I believe it also used Wayfarer's Bauble for acceleration, random burn spells, and Flametongue Kavu or something like that. Repercussion also makes the Grove/Fires combo really entertaining. I would use Oblivion Stone over Disk here as it can remove Planeswalkers.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

[QUOTE=4eak;524716]




Testing it (I like real card advantage). Shuffle effects are greatly wanted. I want to avoid fetches for multiple reasons. Any ideas?




Well... It's janky as all hell, but you could always try Soldier of Fortune. At least he's cheap and you can laugh at your opponent if he uses removal on it.
And as a bonus(?) he looks a lot like Fabio. And he may occasionally do relevant disruptive things to your opponent, like screwing with their Enlightened Tutors.

[MGC_player]

When I toyed with tribal giants, it leaned a lot more in the control direction. Taking some ideas from it perhaps something like this

Lands: 24
4 Scrying Sheets
20 Snow-Covered Mountain

Creatures: 4
4 Martyr of Ashes

Spells: 16
4 Burning Wish
4 Firespout
2 Devastation
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Banefire

Artifacts: 8
4 Coldsteel Heart
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalkers: 8
4 Koth of the Hammer
2 Chandra Nalaar
2 Chandra Ablaze

Sideboard
1 Devastation
1 Shattering Spree
1 Banefire
1 Boiling Seas
1 Recoup
1 Call the Skybreaker
9 Other stuff

[rufus]

You could try to go the Devastating Dreams route, and combine it with stuff that's all about playing cards in the graveyard... Crucible of Worlds maybe stuff like Call the Skybreaker,Recoup, and Gamble utility artifacts like Mox Diamond, and Burning Inquiry seems like it can be fun as graveyard filler/disruption.

[Piceli89]

Motherfucking Smoke and Skred, folks.

[kilukru]

Goblin Charbelcher? Works well with top-scrying sheet and mountains. Maybee as a 2-of

[Mystical_Jackass]

Sadly red control all that comes to mind is boring Blood Moon, Welder, Firespout, Rolling Earthquake, Wildfire, etc.

It'd be fun to see creatures like Galvanoth or Dominus of Fealty though :/

[Gui]

@ Gui
Aye. I believe I've played it. That, unfortunately, is not the aim of the exercise.


Hmmm... because it was RG or because it was stax-control?
Because there was a monored version...

Now if the aim is not using stax-like control, then I can understand... I'm not sure how is monogreen control without stax-like stuff, tho...

[MGC_player]

Hmmm... because it was RG or because it was stax-control?
Because there was a monored version...

Now if the aim is not using stax-like control, then I can understand... I'm not sure how is monogreen control without stax-like stuff, tho...

Monogreen control is actually quite funny since I almost always play some variation of it at my casual table. It can totally hose aggro, loses horribly to combo, and is so-so against other control (depends on the type).

[Carabas]

Is there anything to be gleaned from IBA's old monored snow control for extended?

It was in a bit of a different direction, but here's the old thread, if you want to check it out:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12446-[Extended-Deck]-The-Ring-of-Fire

The deck performed pretty well for me, although that environment was a bit different from legacy today.

[carpathium]

i'm thinking about making a deck like this too.

how about
Basilisk Collar
Goblin Sharpshooter
Grim Lavamancer
Gamble
Browbeat?