Vintage/Legacy Format

[sedio]

I have found This Forum VERY informative....VERY helpfull and of course...very patient against me...
so..I have other of my questions...

When you talk about formats like Legacy and Vintage for example....wich are the diferences between each other, rather than the restricted/prohibited card list??

I read about the diferent metagames because the formats....
What I am trying to understand is...in casual game or in a tournament, could I play whit a deck like Merfolks (legacy type) and my oponent play with a Estandar deck (Type 2)??? does the Legacy deck have so much advantage?????

I ask you all of this because this:
I play Casual magic whith some friends, and we like to make fun-to-play decks...so we have restricted it to a "Legacy" format....because the restricted/prohibited cards..insted o playing 4x black lotus in MB....just to have consistency.
...but when I search in the Goods oracle (Mr Google), I found that you REALLY separate Legacy from Vintage and the diferences between decks and metagames are realy hard....For example... Solidarity deck is just a legacy type (isn't it??). Does not exist a Vintage legal version of Legacy Type decks and vice versa????

It comes here because I 'm searching for decks to play and I see that my mates do not run estandad and very efective decks like decks in Established Decks section....

Is just a cuestion that I have but do not ruin me my dreams..ja!...is just to learn more, to then BEAT EVERY DECK THAT STAYS IN MY WEY!!! JAJAJ

Thnx
Claudio

[Rico Suave]

Casual magic is fine. Playing casual legacy is a lot of fun. And that seems like what you're playing with your friends. When you play in a tournament, you will find people play competitive decks that quickly eliminate casual decks. This forum is mostly for discussing competitive strategies for people to play in tournaments.

There are a lot of decks available in each format. When people talk about metagames, they generally refer to a small group of the best decks in that format.

The best decks in Vintage are worlds above the best decks in Legacy. And the best decks in Legacy will crush the best decks in T2. Casual is not playing to win, so you won't see your group of friends picking up anything on these forums unless you are playing to win and you show them better and more powerful decks.

[Eddy Wally]

Casual magic is fine. Playing casual legacy is a lot of fun. And that seems like what you're playing with your friends. When you play in a tournament, you will find people play competitive decks that quickly eliminate casual decks. This forum is mostly for discussing competitive strategies for people to play in tournaments.

There are a lot of decks available in each format. When people talk about metagames, they generally refer to a small group of the best decks in that format.

The best decks in Vintage are worlds above the best decks in Legacy. And the best decks in Legacy will crush the best decks in T2. Casual is not playing to win, so you won't see your group of friends picking up anything on these forums unless you are playing to win and you show them better and more powerful decks.

That highlighted part isn't completely true. Any stormcombo deck in legacy will rape whatever type 2 can throw at it, but that's not true for all top decks in the format. Stuff like for example merfolk decks is pretty much designed to prey on the legacy metagame. Type 2 decks have more removal than legacy decks, and merfolk isn't that lightning fast compared to many other aggro decks. If you'd build a merfolk deck with the legacy cardpool, specifically designed to crush type 2, you'd do vvery well, but if you take the standard legacy build, not necessarily as good. The merfolk deck would be favourite, but it'd be far from unbeatable.

[bakofried]

Not really. You could easily handle any of the U/x decks floating around standard right now with a Merfs list.

[sedio]

the thing is that like everything in the life...we want more competitive decks...I mean...we want to take a level up in the decks for more fun in play....more balanced "wars" between each deck....so..if I could mount an "imbatible" deck...my friends wanna beat it....so they have the obligation for search and in the same time..learn and have fun..what is the important.
Our goal is to have big army of very nice and competitive decks to play, polished as possible!!
Obviously that there is no real competitive...but the competitivity is what makes that you grown in almost every part of the life.
First we planed to buy the champion's decks, very polished decks that win a lot...but now we want not to pay for that and do ourselves...but no only with this decks but with every kind of deck that apears funny and dificult to beat.....

[Eddy Wally]

Not really. You could easily handle any of the U/x decks floating around standard right now with a Merfs list.

And the nonblue stuff? Merfolk was built to beat up on blue decks.

[menace13]

You can just check the established and deck to beat sections there are a lot of decks you can build from there that are proven to be good.

Merf has 8 Free counters, Standstill, Wasteland and Vial. GG Std format.

[frolll]

Kuldotha Goblins Red would still probably beat it, tbh.

But hey, let's not derail this thread any further... :p

Well, I prefer to edit : this thread is written by someone we'll be wise to redirect to the mtgcasual.com forums, if such thing exists

[menace13]

Kuldotha Goblins Red would still probably beat it, tbh.

But hey, let's not derail this thread any further... :p

As if there were anything better to do with this thread?

[GGoober]

That highlighted part isn't completely true. Any stormcombo deck in legacy will rape whatever type 2 can throw at it, but that's not true for all top decks in the format. Stuff like for example merfolk decks is pretty much designed to prey on the legacy metagame. Type 2 decks have more removal than legacy decks, and merfolk isn't that lightning fast compared to many other aggro decks. If you'd build a merfolk deck with the legacy cardpool, specifically designed to crush type 2, you'd do vvery well, but if you take the standard legacy build, not necessarily as good. The merfolk deck would be favourite, but it'd be far from unbeatable.

???? Is this a troll post????

How is standard going to beat cards like Aether Vial, Daze, FoW, Wasteland?

Titans are going to cost 7 mana at the very least, nevermind, that's if they play mono-color and not get their lands wasted away or pwned on turn 3 with Vial.



And the nonblue stuff? Merfolk was built to beat up on blue decks.

This was a belief in the past. Merfolks can very well still beat up non-blue decks. It has weaknesses against red, and not much else.

[Finn]

Sedio, making competitive Magic decks is a seriously complex activity. It takes a lot of understanding of the format, understanding of the rules of nearly 20 years worth of cards, play-testing, evolving the deck, and most importantly knowing when to scrap an idea. For every good deck you see discussed on this site, there have been, perhaps 50 bad ones that have been posted. And many more that never got that far. My recommendation to you is this:

Copy the decks you see here. Heck, don't even buy the cards-just make proxies. (In my play group, fake cards have been perfectly acceptable ever since the red painful-anus-hole symbol was devised to buttfuck the players.) Play just one or two decks at a time until you become very good with them. Then switch to something else. When you have figured out how the popular Legacy cards function you are ready to begin evolving decks to suit your tastes.

Legacy is a good format to choose when making casual decks. The differences in power from format to format only matters if you are making competitive decks. But in that case, it is supremely important.

EDIT: Or you could just swap in some staples into your existing decks like Swords to Plowshares in white, Force of Will in blue, Thoughtseize in black, Tarmogoyf in green, and Lightning Bolt in red. And experience the cards that way.

[Bardo]

Moved to casual.

[Eddy Wally]

???? Is this a troll post????

How is standard going to beat cards like Aether Vial, Daze, FoW, Wasteland?

Titans are going to cost 7 mana at the very least, nevermind, that's if they play mono-color and not get their lands wasted away or pwned on turn 3 with Vial.




This was a belief in the past. Merfolks can very well still beat up non-blue decks. It has weaknesses against red, and not much else.

A monored RDW or goblin deck in standard would be able to handle it rather well. Those goblin guide decks aren't afraid of vial. Obviously, a slower blue deck that revolves around planeswalkers won't have much game.

If we'd be discussing combo or board control decks, the picture would be different.

[sedio]

Kuldotha Goblins Red would still probably beat it, tbh.

But hey, let's not derail this thread any further... :p

Well, I prefer to edit : this thread is written by someone we'll be wise to redirect to the mtgcasual.com forums, if such thing exists

Why Will you do such thing???
This forum is very complete and the people aparent to be patient with people like me.

the threat was written by me becouse I wanted to know what I have questioned some lines ago...


Sedio, making competitive Magic decks is a seriously complex activity. It takes a lot of understanding of the format, understanding of the rules of nearly 20 years worth of cards, play-testing, evolving the deck, and most importantly knowing when to scrap an idea. For every good deck you see discussed on this site, there have been, perhaps 50 bad ones that have been posted. And many more that never got that far. My recommendation to you is this:

Copy the decks you see here. Heck, don't even buy the cards-just make proxies. (In my play group, fake cards have been perfectly acceptable ever since the red painful-anus-hole symbol was devised to buttfuck the players.) Play just one or two decks at a time until you become very good with them. Then switch to something else. When you have figured out how the popular Legacy cards function you are ready to begin evolving decks to suit your tastes.

Legacy is a good format to choose when making casual decks. The format only matters if you are making competitive decks. But in that case, it is supremely important.

EDIT: Or you could just swap in some staples into your existing decks like Swords to Plowshares in white, Force of Will in blue, Thoughtseize in black, Tarmogoyf in green, and Lightning Bolt in red. And experience the cards that way.

I know what is your point....perhaps I must play a lot more with the same deck and test it very hard....the problem is when a "beta-deck" beats my MUC copied from the list of the best forums...understand what I mean?? what I must do in that cases??? my friend use to assemble VERY fast decks... wich beats me very fast....I know that is the weackest side of MUC, but is a "beta-deck" (..this means that is just recently assemble and must have a few test to run better.....), I assume that it cant beat the MUC.. OBVIOUSLY that i'm in knowlege that the human factor is very important....it's probably that i'm not playing it well...so that is other of my cuestions...but not for this thread.....I post it in MUC thread...this is for knowing/learning diferences between Legacy and Vintage, apart for the list of banned/prohibited cards.

[Lemnear]

This thread has been carried away...

If I understand you right Claudio, you want to know more about the difference of Legacy & Vintage and want to improve the decks of your playgroup.

Vintage is much more than Legacy with moxen. If you compare traditional vintage and Legacy decklists vintage Looks much more like a highlander and because of that, chaining spells to max. value is more complex. Combined with the Power-Level of the restricted spells this could also lead to unexpected blowouts you won't See coming. This means that vintage games can end very fast or last forever if both players Know that they are doing. So I guess this is nothing you want to have in your playgroup...

Moreover Claudio, please improve your writing or ask clear questions. It's hard to identify the points you need our help with.

[menace13]

Why Will you do such thing???
This forum is very complete and the people aparent to be patient with people like me.

the threat was written by me becouse I wanted to know what I have questioned some lines ago...



I know what is your point....perhaps I must play a lot more with the same deck and test it very hard....the problem is when a "beta-deck" beats my MUC copied from the list of the best forums...understand what I mean?? what I must do in that cases??? my friend use to assemble VERY fast decks... wich beats me very fast....I know that is the weackest side of MUC, but is a "beta-deck" (..this means that is just recently assemble and must have a few test to run better.....), I assume that it cant beat the MUC.. OBVIOUSLY that i'm in knowlege that the human factor is very important....it's probably that i'm not playing it well...so that is other of my cuestions...but not for this thread.....I post it in MUC thread...this is for knowing/learning diferences between Legacy and Vintage, apart for the list of banned/prohibited cards.

The difference of the 2 formats IS the Banned and Restricted List. Legacy bans cards outright where Vintage restricts them. The Key Cards make a format. Legacy and Vintage are simialr in aspects of being Eternal formats that have access to Dual lands, Force of Will, Wasteland, Tendrils of Agony, Tarmogoyf/Dark Confidant. Standard and Extended can not play these cards.
Certain cards are insane when used in decks designed to enable them, if you want to see videos of those cards being used in events there are websites.

http://www.eternal-central.com/?page_id=158

http://www.ustream.tv/user/ggslive/videos

[sedio]

This thread has been carried away...

If I understand you right Claudio, you want to know more about the difference of Legacy & Vintage and want to improve the decks of your playgroup.

Vintage is much more than Legacy with moxen. If you compare traditional vintage and Legacy decklists vintage Looks much more like a highlander and because of that, chaining spells to max. value is more complex. Combined with the Power-Level of the restricted spells this could also lead to unexpected blowouts you won't See coming. This means that vintage games can end very fast or last forever if both players Know that they are doing. So I guess this is nothing you want to have in your playgroup...

Moreover Claudio, please improve your writing or ask clear questions. It's hard to identify the points you need our help with.

Your awnser is what I want....that' it what I want to know...
for example...every deck Extended/standard legal coul be called Legacy/Vintage legal??? could I enter a tournament with an Standard deck That I think beats de Legacy metagame in it???

remember that all this are questions to learn....

[sedio]

The difference of the 2 formats IS the Banned and Restricted List. Legacy bans cards outright where Vintage restricts them. The Key Cards make a format. Legacy and Vintage are simialr in aspects of being Eternal formats that have access to Dual lands, Force of Will, Wasteland, Tendrils of Agony, Tarmogoyf/Dark Confidant. Standard and Extended can not play these cards.
Certain cards are insane when used in decks designed to enable them, if you want to see videos of those cards being used in events there are websites.

http://www.eternal-central.com/?page_id=158

http://www.ustream.tv/user/ggslive/videos

the videos are really good..but it´s too dificult to me to understand the game....the cards are not too familiar to me and I can see the names and the drawings....so...its prety dificult...and since English is not my lenguage...I understand a little but no to much to understand the entire game..... :(


This thread has been carried away...

If I understand you right Claudio, you want to know more about the difference of Legacy & Vintage and want to improve the decks of your playgroup.

Vintage is much more than Legacy with moxen. If you compare traditional vintage and Legacy decklists vintage Looks much more like a highlander and because of that, chaining spells to max. value is more complex. Combined with the Power-Level of the restricted spells this could also lead to unexpected blowouts you won't See coming. This means that vintage games can end very fast or last forever if both players Know that they are doing. So I guess this is nothing you want to have in your playgroup...

Moreover Claudio, please improve your writing or ask clear questions. It's hard to identify the points you need our help with.

Your awnser is what I want....that' it what I want to know...
for example...every deck Extended/standard legal coul be called Legacy/Vintage legal??? could I enter a tournament with an Standard deck That I think beats de Legacy metagame in it???

remember that all this are questions to learn....

[Rico Suave]

So there's what, 1 deck in Standard that might be able to get close to breaking even with Merfolk? And that's without bringing up the age-old topic of Merfolk not even being a good deck?

I rest my case.

[sedio]

So there's what, 1 deck in Standard that might be able to get close to breaking even with Merfolk? And that's without bringing up the age-old topic of Merfolk not even being a good deck?

I rest my case.

I don't understand what you mean....

[menace13]

What is your native language? There might be someone here who can point you in the direction of a forum in your language to better help you.

1. No, you should not enter Legacy and Vintage with a Standard or Extended deck. It is legal, but very weak compared to the cards in Eternal formats..
2. Yes, every single Standard and Extended deck is 100% Vintage and Legacy legal.

[sedio]

What is your native language? There might be someone here who can point you in the direction of a forum in your language to better help you.

1. No, you should not enter Legacy and Vintage with a Standard or Extended deck. It is legal, but very weak compared to the cards in Eternal formats..
2. Yes, every single Standard and Extended deck is 100% Vintage and Legacy legal.

Spanish is my native language...but I found this foru very helpfull..so I hope you could be helpfull and a little patience with me...tit's just that....

back to the vintage/legacy format....I understand what happend with standard/extended in a legacy/vintage metagame...it's just silly to try win something and if you do it just a hit of good luck....so...in conclucion...every deck in Vintage/Legacy is very superior to the Standar/Extended formats, there are no place for doubts, so if I loose whith Merfolks for example...is that I'm playing it in wrong way.....

I'm ok??

[menace13]

Spanish is my native language...but I found this foru very helpfull..so I hope you could be helpfull and a little patience with me...tit's just that....

back to the vintage/legacy format....I understand what happend with standard/extended in a legacy/vintage metagame...it's just silly to try win something and if you do it just a hit of good luck....so...in conclucion...every deck in Vintage/Legacy is very superior to the Standar/Extended formats, there are no place for doubts, so if I loose whith Merfolks for example...is that I'm playing it in wrong way.....

I'm ok??

You should beat almost every match with Eternal decks against Std or Ext. Spain has a lot of forums for Magic. I only know of this one
http://www.eternalcatala.com/

[Finn]

My Spanish leaves a lot to be desired, but here goes.

Merfolk no es el mejor ejemplo porque fue dicenado especificamente para ir contra cartas comunes de Legacy. Pero, es verdad.

Tambien, en todo caso, toma mucha practica para lograr usar las cartas en la corecta manera. las cartas "tournament deck" tienen muchas facetas de interacción en comparacion con un grupo de cartas casual.

[sedio]

My Spanish leaves a lot to be desired, but here goes.

Merfolk no es el mejor ejemplo porque fue dicenado especificamente para ir contra cartas comunes de Legacy. Pero, es verdad.

Tambien, en todo caso, toma mucha practica para lograr usar las cartas en la corecta manera. las cartas "tournament deck" tienen muchas facetas de interacción en comparacion con un grupo de cartas casual.

so...therefore I should not bother if I loos with an MUC against an AGGRO Extended deck?? sholud I must find the right cards to tun?? (tweak the deck) or I must learn to play the cards??

[Finn]

All the advice we are giving amounts to simply getting plenty of experience.