[Deck] Blue Zoo

[troopatroop]

Greetings! It's 11/13/2013 and I'm taking this opportunity to update this main post. This deck has been my pet deck for a long time, and it's only right that I update a 2 year old main post.

My current decklist, Blue Zoo 2014

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Plateau
1 Tundra
1 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills


SB


2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Rest in Peace

This deck is very similar to RUG thresh, but its gameplan is more aggressive. Wild Nacatl is @ his best turns 1-3 where Nimble Mongoose is only 1/1, thus the deck runs about 1 turn faster. This can be critical against combo decks in Legacy. We also play Force/Daze/and Pierce for counters, something Zoo decks just don't support. True-Name Nemesis ends the game, and he's great in a fair deck like this, especially with Burn spells to nug people. He takes the interaction right out of the game, so we're either too fast for the opponent, or we have disruption to slow them down. When this deck is firing on all cylinders, it's got all the answers for your board, and you're dead on turn5 to 3 power 1 drops. Brainstorm and Ponder smooth your draws, and Grim Lavamancer is great right now. Tarmogoyf mucks the ground nicely, allowing our Nemesis/Lavamen/Burn to finish the game. Spell Pierce is somewhat debatable, but I've loved it. Pierce your Bolt/STP on my Nacatl/Delver, and be huge against combo. While the new 3 drop doesn't "speed us up", I think of it as a better Vendilion Clique. He blocks like a champion turn 3, and he will finish the game for you.

Step 1: start with a 3/3 or 3/2 flyer turn 1

Step 2: burn their creatures, counter their spells, play threats, and attack

Step 3: finish the line, win the game

Some look at this decklist and they think it's a joke. This is a stable deck, with realistic lines of play, in 3 colors of magic cards. It's like U/r burn with 8 incredible green creatures. Plateau taps for Lavamancer, and Tundra taps for blue. The requirements for growing Wild Nacatl are not hard to achieve, especially if you lead with Trop-> Nacatl. Daze and Force are exactly what this deck wants, and a huge boon to the Wild Nacatl deck. It's a miconception the cards can't be played in tandem. I think the main cause is the pricetag on a manabase like this. 0 Basic lands makes a wallet cry.

Merfolk 55%

This is the matchup I've tested the most. It sucks that we can't stop Vial, and we're vulnerable to Wasteland. When paired with counters, thats how you're going to lose. That being said, this is a favorable matchup, and a deck I'd want to sit across from. We have all the tools necessary to win this with efficiency, mono blue having almost no removal for our threats. Land an early Nacatl/Delver and pressure accordingly. 1/6 of my deck is burn, so it's pretty hard for them to pull out wins. Identity Nemesis is very good against us, and the primary Force target.

Miracles 45%

This is a bad matchup. Supreme Verdict and Terminus are the main problems, wraths always have been for Blue Zoo. Thankfully we have 18 threats maindeck, so it's somewhat hard to run out. Something like Sulfuric Vortex out of the side would been spiffy, these grindy control decks are definitely a problem. Sometimes we can cantrip into a finish, sometimes we peter out and die. It's worth boarding cards for this deck, because you won't be favored without them.

Combo (storm/sneakyshow) 55-60%

I'm lumping these together, because they're both great matchups. We have everything to stop them quickly, SB I bring in a bunch of cards. They have 0 wasteland or removal, so our powerful 1drops are perfect here. As long as you don't draw like dogpoop you should be okay. Obviously theres times combo just wins and you can't do anything about it, but it just doesn't seem like this deck can do any better here. Flusterstorm and Pierce after SB, possibly Thalia? These decks are everywhere, so practice up on sequencing. Leave mana open for counterspells, know what to counter, etc

that's all for now, more to come











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First, a rant. I've been playing Legacy for a while, and plenty of different decks along the way. I didn't always know if my deck was the "best" deck, but I knew that I wanted it to be. I sold my collection a few times, and always bought right back into what I thought was the best deck. I went to Zoo most recently, as it's so consistant and strong, and played the strongest low investment creatures. Zoo's popularity remains constant, but it's not putting up the numbers that it used to. Legacy remains a very random format, and you never really know what you're going to run into. Zoo is a consistent deck, so it's relatively strong against randomness, but things have changed. My logic behind leaving that deck was, "If these cards aren't good against everything (Path to Exile, Helix, Fireblast), then I can't be playing the best deck in Legacy." This lead me to blue, keeper of the best cards in legacy, and a slightly different approach

Naya Zoo is really good at controlling the board, and that's a fine strategy, but not without it's weaknesses. Show and Tell and Natural Order are good examples of popular spells that win the game when they're cast. These are fairly new additions to the Legacy scene, and primary win conditions for Combo and Control decks alike. This is not good for the Zoo deck, who already has problems with decks like this. Storm combo has become more consistent and remains blindingly fast. Painter-Stone is faster now with Mox Opal and LED. Zoo can't realistically race those decks, not that winning isn't possible, or that you can't board for those decks, but the problems dont end there. Combo Control decks can also win by resolving a single spell. That's too much of the metagame to lose to, or at least enough of the room to draw me away from that approach. I knew however, that I didn't want to give up on Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf, as they are the best creatures for power to cost in Legacy, and solidify your aggro matchups. Blue gives this deck a close to even matchup with everything, and it can still can beat Merfolk and Goblins.



U/R/G/w Blue Zoo (Updated on 6-1-11)

// Lands (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Savannah

// Creatures (16)
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

// Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

// Sideboard (15)
1 Spell Snare
2 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Path to Exile
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll


Alot has changed in this decklist since previous builds. Stifle is gone, due to an inability to hold mana open. Wasteland also left with it, which really distinguishes this deck from Tempo Thresh. What we have here is a modern version of Blue Zoo, with a refined manabase and spell selection. Some things to take note of.

- 14 Cards requiring Red ims (4 Ape + Bolt, 3 Grim + Chain)
- 8 Cards requiring Green ims (Nacatl + Tarmogoyf)
- 8 Cards requiring Blue ims (Brainstorm, 3 Spell Snare, 1 Clique)

Force of Will is free, Mental Misstep is free, and Daze requires an Island in play. The manabase is not stretched nearly as hard as you would think, and the counters fit in with the creatures really well. Fetchlands work magic in this deck, and in return, you get the best of both worlds in cards. Counterspells really solidify your combo matches, and the creatures give you serious game against Merfolk, especially Wild Nacatl and Grim Lavamancer. The deck boasts positive to even matchups against much of the metagame, with only a few exceptions (MUD decks and Rockish midrange). Zoo is slightly unfavorable, but Merfolk is just as positive as Traditional Zoo, because you still have the tools to beat the snot out of them (Cats + Burn + Lavamancer).

Never before has 12 Free counterspells been possible in Zoo. 4 Force/4 Daze/4 Brainstorm is only 12 blue cards, and Fow demands a minimum of 16. Mental Misstep gets us to that number, fits perfectly into the deck with no stretch, and Vendilion Clique or Ponder get us to an even higher density of Blue cards. Couple that with Wild Nacatl and Kird Ape, and you have the scariest deck Storm Combo can imagine (save CB-Top, but it's debatable). Wild Nacatl can win the game in 6-7 turns by himself, which is blazingly fast for a "Blue" deck. Kird Ape also hits harder than Nimble Mongoose when it matters (early game), and still presents plenty of inevitability for decks who have to Swords it. They're both awesome at putting on pressure, and this deck should really start getting more attention because of them. While the prospect of Nacatl/Kird Ape + Blue spells may seem greedy, it's actually really easy to pull off, and extremely rewarding. You get Daze, Fow, and Mental Misstep active from turn 1 on with little to no effort, while simultaneously handling the attacking and removal in harmony. It's sick, really.

I would suggest this deck for any metagame with alot of the following decks

Merfolk
Painter-Stone
Storm
Dredge
Goblins
Spiral Tide

I would say the deck is about even against

U/w Stoneforge
Zoo
Team America

I would say the deck is unfavored against

Landstill
The Rock
Chalice Aggro
G/w Maverick

[Jabari]

You should read the Canadian Thresh thread, the lists are really similar.

[arwall]

You could always drop two Stifle and add in two Oxidize.

[sco0ter]

You should read the Canadian Thresh thread, the lists are really similar.

You should rather read this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13067-[Kurtis-Droge-s-Zoo]-Undefeated-Day-1-at-GP-Chicago!).

Blue Zoo went undefeated day1 in GP Chicago 2009.

[(nameless one)]

Wouldn't Nimble Mongoose better than Wild Nacatl on this deck?

[troopatroop]

Wouldn't Nimble Mongoose better than Wild Nacatl on this deck?

I don't think so. Getting Wild Nacatl big is much easier, cake with fetchlands. Nimble Mongoose needs 7 cards in the graveyard, at earliest turn 4-5 to not swing as a 1/1. That's not fast on offense or defense, plus I want to play Grim Lavamancer. That wouldn't work well with Mongoose. You'll call to the shroud, which is relevant, but Wild Nacatl eating an STP isn't the worst thing. He's faster, swings for 3 on turn 2, and gets big more reliably.


You should rather read this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13067-[Kurtis-Droge-s-Zoo]-Undefeated-Day-1-at-GP-Chicago!).

Blue Zoo went undefeated day1 in GP Chicago 2009.

I know all about that thread, it's over 2 years old tho, and Fire/Ice seems just okay.

Wake Thrasher was an interesting idea from Breathweapon

[perm]

You could always drop two Stifle and add in two Oxidize.

Oxidize is a SB card at best, and opponent life gain is bad in aggro

[Esper3k]

If you're considering Wake Thrasher, why not Coralhelm instead?

Cheaper to cast, gives you something to do with extra mana, better on defense, has evasion.

[troopatroop]

Wake Thrasher is more explosive than Coralhelm Commander. Say you've got a Wild Nacatl tapped from attacking on turn 3. You untap 4 permanents, and Wake Thrasher + Nacatl swing for 8. Coralhelm is a much more significant mana investment, which isn't good here. I like him best for being blue and 3cc.

[arwall]

Oxidize is a SB card at best, and opponent life gain is bad in aggro
Yeah, I meant as a SB card.

What does opponent life gain have to do with Oxidize?

[Infinitium]

Since you're ignoring mana instability as is, why not go the full ten yards and add in black for Tribal Flames and Dark Confidant? Also since your blue count is quite low and it doesn't really help you deal 20, why not cut Force (or put it in the sideboard) and simply rely on Daze (and mayhap Wasteland/Stifle) to slow the opponent down?

[trivial_matters]

Since you're ignoring mana instability as is, why not go the full ten yards and add in black for Tribal Flames and Dark Confidant? Also since your blue count is quite low and it doesn't really help you deal 20, why not cut Force (or put it in the sideboard) and simply rely on Daze (and mayhap Wasteland/Stifle) to slow the opponent down?

Tribal Flames seems bad in a deck like this. Screwing up the already strained mana base for Dark Confidant is quite dangerous. And you probably couldn't play Wasteland then. So Stifle gets worse. Also, I count 22 blue cards main which looks alright for Force of Will.

[troopatroop]

I have no desire to go into black for Dark Confidant alone. The manabase works well right now, and black would ruin that. I'm not ignoring instability, I'm keeping the manabase stable. I would sooner play Tin-Street Hooligan over Oxidize, and Krosan Grip bests them both. It's too narrow.


keep 'em coming!

[Qweerios]

I tried to make an updated list of the undefeated thread based on the idea of having strong 1drops with cheap counterspells.


Creatures (14)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Serendib Efreet

Spells (24)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt

Artifacts (2)
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (19)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical island
2 Taiga
1 Island


I cut the ponders for 2 Jittes and 2 Spell Pierces, Paths for Bolts, and traded Nacatl and Ranger for Guide and Efreet cutting white altogether. Looks a lot like a sligh canadian thresh deck now.

[arwall]

Running one-of of anything doesn't really hold much of a chance of pulling it, so if you really are having that big of a problem with artifacts, just run a one-of of Duergar Hedge-Mage.

It doesn't give them a draw like your other cards all seem to be wanting to have a commodity of, though.

[Grymer]

could Sygg, River Cutthroat be good in the deck?

[bganns]

Well this is the list i have testing and proved be really good

Lands
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Island
1 Taiga

Creatures

4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Vendilion Clique

Spells

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Fire/Ice
4 Daze
3 pell Snare
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard

3 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroclasm
2 Submerge
2 Pyroblast

[freakish777]

Troopa, your initial list looks very good. I don't really have a whole bunch of time to test it out at the moment, but it looks somewhat similar to Next Level Tempo (with much more focus on killing the opponent early instead of dropping Jace).

In any event, Daze, while good, can probably go to a 3 of, and then you could cut the 2 Spell Pierce and add 3 Spellstutter Sprite. There is very few things more frustrating than playing Path to Exile/Swords to Plowshares on a Goyf only to have your opponent respond with Spellstutter.

[troopatroop]

The problem with the lists above:

-Goblin Guide is basically unplayable. Grim Lavamancer is better, imo.
-Kird Ape is worse than Wild Nacatl. 3 > 2
-Stifle is amazing, and you should be playing it.
-STP is superior to Lightning Bolt. Knight of the Reliquary + Tarmogoyf are big problems otherwise.

I can see bringing Daze to 3x, but I don't think SSS is the card. Spell Pierce counters Jace, Counterbalance, Vial turn 1, etc. I've been looking at Basilisk Collar. While generally a bad card, it doesn't seem all that bad here. Grim Lavamancer loves it, and deathtouch + lifelink is saucey. Thoughts?


could Sygg, River Cutthroat be good in the deck?

This is interesting, although not good enough I'm afraid. The most common play is Tropical Island -> Nacatl. There's no way to attack for three without fetching the Plateau, which can't help cast Sygg. It's a great suggestion tho, thanks. Maybe after some tweaking, pitching to FOW is great.

Serendib Efreet is okay, but Wake Thrasher hits for alot more. I don't think the Efreet is quite powerful enough.

[troopatroop]

I've been playing with Green Sun's Zenith, and truly enjoying it. One thing this deck gives up by playing less creatures is threat density. You keep the strongest critters of the Zoo lot, but you play less of them. The plan is to play 1 creature and ride it to victory, much akin to Canadian Thresh, but it can be hard to stick/find one at times. That said, Grim Lavamancer is great at stopping tribal, but less so at winning the game on his own vs other decks. I like Knight of the Reliquary for his ability to get massive late game.

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Terravore
2 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
23 Lands

I've liked this maindeck alot more. It much stronger against Counterbalance and Landstill, because you just play more big guys. 3x Force of Will is controversy I know, but I'm loving it more and more! I draw way too many double force hands against decks I don't want it, and it's not always good to 2 for 1 yourself. Three yields much fewer multiples, yet lets me see it fairly often. I don't feel like this deck truly needs Force of Will, as generally you have other counters to stop unfair things from your opponent. Zenith has been stellar, even getting a 3/3 for 2 is solid. Terravore is there for Goblins and Merfolk, as the Trample just wins games. My side has also changed a bit as well.

2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroclasm
2 Submerge
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Energy Flux
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

I cut an Enlightened Tutor for a Gaddock Teeg. My reasoning is that I now have 6 bombs that win me the game against Combo, and 3x is enough redundancy against the fringe decks I'm targetting. Jitte has come back for being invaluable to the Merfolk and Goblins matchup, and because I have only attacking creatures now. Crucible of Worlds has been SICK against many manabases, and I absolutely adore it for the side. Pyroclasm remains neccessary without Grim Lavamancer, Submerge can be uber, and I like the new maindeck alot. Thoughts?

[freakish777]

Make sure you have a Pridgemage in there somewhere to tutor up with Green Sun's Zenith.

[troopatroop]

I could play 1 Qasali / Kotr / Terravore. You want it against Counterbalance, but isn't Tarmogoyf just as good?

[troopatroop]

Mental Misstep is gross. This is the list I'll be playing!


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Wasteland

4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills


Mental Misstep makes this deck alot better, as you have more ways of being annoying. Swords, Stifle, and Aether Vial are big-time targets.

[St3B]

Today I was testing a new tempo Bant list with a friend, after a good amount of matches I suggested a similar list to him. The main difference was that we skipped on Force of Will and focussed more on the tempo provided by Mental Misstep, Stifle, Daze and Wasteland.

What about a more agressive approach:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Taiga
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
2 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills

[Admiral_Arzar]

The main difference was that we skipped on Force of Will

I stopped reading right there.

@ Troopatroop: Since I should probably contribute to this thread, MM sounds really good here. I like your list but I'm not sure you have enough lands to actually cast Jace consistently, and he doesn't really fit into your Tempo disruption, beat with fast dudes, lulz strategy. Perhaps a Vendillion Clique or KOTR or another burn spell would fit better.

[Infinitium]

I stopped reading right there.

Why? What spells do you desperately need to counter to the degree of giving up another card for it? It's a Zoo list; you don't -need- to protect any single threat, and unless the opponent plays something that directly interferes with you killing him and that you cannoy remove otherwise you don't care about it either.

[Darth Nihilus]

Mental Misstep is gross. This is the list I'll be playing!


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Wasteland

4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills


Mental Misstep makes this deck alot better, as you have more ways of being annoying. Swords, Stifle, and Aether Vial are big-time targets.

how is a list with 11 threats a zoo list?

why jace TMS? its ZOO not controll, zoo kills with creatures and zoo doesnt need card advantage...

what u got there looks like a random controll pile with nactals

[troopatroop]

I'd appreciate it if spelling and grammar were maintained. I understand not liking Jace, but he's basically the win if you can start brainstorming. At worst he pitches to Force of Will, but I've liked Vendilion Clique in that spot as well. Force of Will is still the best blue card in Legacy, and I want to play it. People get so testy!

I would call it "Aggro-Control" with Tempo Elements in Stifle and Wasteland. It really likes going first :D

[Darth Nihilus]

this list is just not zoo thats all.
zoo wins through a high amount of cheap and strong critters, if you look at the history of the whole zoo archtype running less than 16 threats allready means that the list isn´t a zoo list anymore

by definition your list has nothing to do with zoo

[troopatroop]

It plays creatures that come from Zoo, but with less of them + a blue core. I've played both the decks, I'm aware it's different. >_<

[Mr_Miyagi]

I believe everyone understands that this is not zoo in the matter of redundant craeturedrops and a high spotremovalratio. The way these decks are played resembles CT/NLT and thus there is no need to reduce the discussion to semantics. If the urge is too strong, feel free to imagine another deckname.

Regarding card choices i feel that Kird Apes are too weak, even in classic zoo. With fewer creatures we must play the strongest ones in respective colours. I personally would go with Steppe Lynxes because of the striking power with fetchlands and due to the fact that they somewhat synergize with daze, thus they become potentially less dead midgame.

Obviously the blue power 16 (playsets of BS, FoW, Daze and MM) + 4 Stifle/Ponder would be the shell i would test first, combined with a high fetchcount and hopefully Wastelands. This makes FoW a decent choice with 20(+) blue cards. After that the easy part of construction remains, filling up the deck with the strongest dudes and 4 Lightning Bolts:).

PS. Blue might have a decent flyer that could fit the deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Mental Misstep is gross. This is the list I'll be playing!


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Wasteland

4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills


Mental Misstep makes this deck alot better, as you have more ways of being annoying. Swords, Stifle, and Aether Vial are big-time targets.

What advantage does this list have over New Horizons?

[lordofthepit]

this list is just not zoo thats all.
zoo wins through a high amount of cheap and strong critters, if you look at the history of the whole zoo archtype running less than 16 threats allready means that the list isn´t a zoo list anymore

by definition your list has nothing to do with zoo

Actually, if we're talking history, the original Vintage Zoo decks ran far fewer than 16 creatures and did run blue for broken power cards (and the likes of Serendib Efreet and Psionic Blast.

[ivanpei]

I think the next best threat is Steppe Lynx, that card is fast as heck and you can cut duals for more fetches. Daze combos well with Steppe Lynx later in the game too. I think snare is abit too narrow, so maybe it deserves to be cut for Lynx.

[St3B]

Why? What spells do you desperately need to counter to the degree of giving up another card for it? It's a Zoo list; you don't -need- to protect any single threat, and unless the opponent plays something that directly interferes with you killing him and that you cannoy remove otherwise you don't care about it either.

At least someone with common sense. I know cutting down on Force of Will is not the common thing to do, but loosing a card is cutting down on the reach of the deck. Spell Snare on the other hand is important in order to cut opposing Chalice of the Voids, Tarmogoyfs and Counterbalances. I agree that Kird Ape is not the most impressive threat, but Steppe Lynx obliges us to fetch for white and we don't really start with a Tundra. I also believe the deck could use some Chain Lightnings to boost our Tarmogoyfs.

[perm]

At least someone with common sense. I know cutting down on Force of Will is not the common thing to do, but loosing a card is cutting down on the reach of the deck. Spell Snare on the other hand is important in order to cut opposing Chalice of the Voids, Tarmogoyfs and Counterbalances. I agree that Kird Ape is not the most impressive threat, but Steppe Lynx obliges us to fetch for white and we don't really start with a Tundra. I also believe the deck could use some Chain Lightnings to boost our Tarmogoyfs.

So, do you guys realize that force of will can be used to counter cards beyond those just disrupting your game plan? FoW doesn't just protect, it disrupts your opponents, and this is in a time where combo is dominant. FoW is completely worth stopping a CB/top as well. Did you just think you save FoW for a stp?

[troopatroop]

What advantage does this list have over New Horizons?

Speed. Wild Nacatl makes the deck faster, and with Fetches the manabase runs great. I want to be attacking on turn 2.

[troopatroop]

I've been doing some more testing on this deck, and I've streamlined the list a bunch


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wasteland

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn


I streamlined the manabase, and the fetches can get any Dual. I've found 2 Daze to be fine. It puts the fear in them if they see one, while ensuring you won't get bogged down with them. This opened up room for 3 Ponder, which have been amazing for me. I'm flip-flopping between White and Red, but I've found White to be better.

- StP is more versatile than Lightning Bolt. Playing big creatures offsets the lifegain.

- Knight of the Reliquary compliments this strategy nicely, and this deck hates being ground stalled.

- The Plateau casts 2 more cards with KoTR in the deck, giving it more casting quality while on the board.

Overall, I really enjoy playing this deck. Wild Nacatl can put on so much pressure early in conjunction with Wasteland and Stifle. He's just such a quick attacker in the Tempo deck. I think this deck deserves more attention, it's been rolling people in my testing.

[Jonathan Alexander]

What I don't get is why you would want to run Zoo's second fastest threat which also requires you to warp your manabase over its fastest threat. I've been running a Bant Zoo list with Steppe Lynx for a while now and it's one of the most fun decks I've ever played. This was before Mental Misstep though, I haven't played it since the printing of Mental Misstep. Actually I think that with Mental Misstep, I'm going to move the Force Of Wills to the sideboard. This was my list:

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland

//Creatures
2 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf

//Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
4 Preordain
4 Swords To Plowshares

//Sideboard
2 Ethersorn Canonist
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Karakas
4 Path To Exile
4 Spell Pierce

The sideboard was actually pretty cool; I had my hatepieces for combo and control matchups and I had kind of a transformational plan with Green Sun's Zenith, opting for a more midrange plan postboard.
You can pull awesome tempo moves with this deck via Noble Hierarch and Wasteland or simply beat face with Steppe Lynx and Tarmogoyf.

[Mr. Safety]

I've been doing some more testing on this deck, and I've streamlined the list a bunch


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wasteland

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn


I streamlined the manabase, and the fetches can get any Dual. I've found 2 Daze to be fine. It puts the fear in them if they see one, while ensuring you won't get bogged down with them. This opened up room for 3 Ponder, which have been amazing for me. I'm flip-flopping between White and Red, but I've found White to be better.

- StP is more versatile than Lightning Bolt. Playing big creatures offsets the lifegain.

- Knight of the Reliquary compliments this strategy nicely, and this deck hates being ground stalled.

- The Plateau casts 2 more cards with KoTR in the deck, giving it more casting quality while on the board.

Overall, I really enjoy playing this deck. Wild Nacatl can put on so much pressure early in conjunction with Wasteland and Stifle. He's just such a quick attacker in the Tempo deck. I think this deck deserves more attention, it's been rolling people in my testing.

I'm toying with this idea as well for a casual deck...a couple of questions for you:

1) Do you miss Lightning Bolt or Grim Lavamancer? It seems like they would be good in here.
2) Would you play Meddling Mage in this list?
3) Would you consider a domain approach with Bob and Tribal Flames?

Thanks!

[troopatroop]

I'm sick and tired of people saying I warp my manabase. Have you even looked at it? Volcanic taps for blue! Plateau is the only "warp", but it says "have 7 cards in your grave now", casts Goyf/Kotr/Plow, and I only fetch it turn 2 against Combo. Steppe Lynx requires that you make land drops, and against Stax or Landstill or anything slow, you won't be able to do that mid-late game. Steppe Lynx was inconsistant for me, and caused lots of mulligans. Nacatl costs G and you're done caring about it.

Red is fine, but Grim Lavamancer is more awkward than you'd think. It's the only red permanent in the deck, making it somewhat awkward to need to cast turns 1-2. I cut it MD in the Red build for Vendilion Clique, which did what I wanted consistantly. Lightning Bolt is STP effectively, so I didn't miss it. I wouldn't play Meddling Mage, because he's a puny attacker. 2/2 for 2 doesn't cut it in a deck that's trying to win quickly, and he's really only effective against combo, who we crush.

Dark Confidant and Tribal Flames is interesting, but that deck is without a good 1 drop creature.

[Hanni]

Troop, now that Mental Misstep has been printed, I really think that this deck is the way to go for tempo aggro/control. Blue Zoo has a far more aggressive early game, meaning it can capitalize on the early tempo gains better than any of the other tempo aggro/control decks out there.

Denying the opponent from resolving any spells for the first 3-4 turns of the game is great in a classic Tempo Thresh shell, but that deck has to beat the opponent down with Mongoose and Goyf in the midgame, before the opponent can topdeck and stabilize. Sometimes it can, sometimes it cannot.

Gaining a bunch of tempo early game seems pointless if all you're doing with that tempo is spending the mana on cantrips, digging for a threat.

With Blue Zoo, the deck starts beating right from the get-go. This means it doesn't need to waste tempo digging with cantrips to find a threat, and it means that it worries alot less about an opponent stabilizing in the midgame because they're dead by then (or easily within burn range).

For Blue Zoo, I think the Stifle/Wasteland package needs to be dropped. The deck literally runs only 1 spell you ever plan on casting with colorless mana (Tarmogoyf), so Wasteland is rarely ever being used as an actual land. Stifle forces you to hold U open early, when you'd much rather be committing creatures to the board instead. All in all, I think that Stifle/Wasteland is just a bad package for Blue Zoo. Cutting it frees up a whole fuckton of design space.

I think the deck seriously needs at least 10 1cc creatures. From my experience with Sligh and Zoo, the most "nuts" starts are when the deck can go turn 1 critter, turn 2 two critters. With 10+ 1cc creatures, this deck can do the same thing. When you combine that with 12 free counterspells, so that the opponent cannot do anything about it, you have one massively scary deck.

I really think you need to be running Burn. Both Zoo and Canadian Thresh run it, and for good reason. Early game, burn kills just about every chump blocker that gets in your way. By midgame, it can be directed at the opponent's face to just win the game. The deck already has a ton of countermagic to keep bigger guys like opposing Goyf's off the board without needing StP, and even if a big Knight of the Reliquary does resolve, I think tossing burn at the opponent's face rather than giving them a whole bunch of life, is a better plan in a deck that's built around early game aggression.

Here's my proposed build:

U/R/g/w Blue Zoo

Lands (19)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Plateau

Creatures (15)
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

19 lands, with no Wastelands, and with 4 Brainstorm's, is plenty, even being 4c. The 13 fetchlands are absolutely amazing for this deck. Aside from their necessity for Steppe Lynx, they also make hitting the proper color sources in a 4c deck alot smoother. They fuel Grim Lavamancer much more effectively, and they make Brainstorm stronger.

I think Steppe Lynx is such a monster in a deck that can protect him during the first few turns of the game (when he's capable of putting out massive damage). With 4 Brainstorm and 4 Daze, the deck also has plenty of ways of keeping him going for more than just 1-2 turns. Even if he only can swing on turn 2 and 3 (for 8 damage), that's still all the mileage you really need out of him considering that the deck has a ton of other aggro and burn to fill in the remaining damage necessary to win.

7 burn spells and 3 Grim Lavamancer's give this deck amazing midgame reach, and plenty of ways of removing early blockers. Considering that MM-Merfolk appears to be one of the top decks right now, I think that this removal package is going to go a long way. Being in white, the deck still has access to Path to Exile if necessary (depending on metagame).

Well, that's all for now.

[troopatroop]

I like it alot Hanni, good work. I was too close to the deck to see that Stifle was wrong. 13 Fetches + Steppe Lynx is just... Wow. I also really like the "10" removal outlets, as Merfolk is a problem otherwise. I'll be testing it as soon as I get the chance to. Wasteland still grabs my attention.

[Hanni]

Oops, I totally forgot how important Plateau is for enabling turn 2 3/3 Nacatl's. -1 Tundra +1 Plateau. I'll edit my above decklist.


Wasteland still grabs my attention.

Trying to fit Wasteland into a 4c deck that has only 1 card you can ever actually use the colorless mana on*, just seems greedy. Why try to disrupt the opponent's manabase if you can just counter whatever they are gonna play, while smashing face and flinging burn? In a 3c aggro/control deck like New Horizons, Tempo Thresh, and Team America... sure. In 4c Blue Zoo? You have better things to be doing than attacking their manabase.

*I realize both Daze and Force of Will can be cast with colorless mana, but that's not something that's going to happen often enough to make the colorless mana from Wasteland relevant.

EDIT: To elaborate further on Wasteland:

You have too many other important things to be doing. You need too many color sources early to really use Wasteland early. You want blue on turn 1, along with green (Nacatl), white (Lynx), or red (Lavamancer). On turn two, you need all 4 colors for Nacatl, and you're likely going to want at least 3 different colors on turn 2, for either a Lynx start or Lavamancer start (depending on your hand).

By the time you get past the heavy demand on color sources, and assuming you don't need additional ones because of opposing Stifle/Wasteland's, you'd rather be focusing on countering spells, dropping guys and smashing face, and/or burning out blockers/burning the opponent's face. Adding another unrelated disruption element to the deck is only going to dilute the focus of the primary elements, which all seem alot more important if you ask me.

[troopatroop]

Noted, and I realized the Plateau was missing as well :P It's GREAT in that build. IMS for Lynx, Lavamancer mana, 7 Burn Spells!

The real challenge of this deck is working the mana. There's only 2 Green sources for Nacatl/Goyf, but white sources are just as important to Steppe Lynx. I'd be tempted to cut a Fetch for a Trop, because getting them both wasted hurts, but white sources are more important turn 1.

Tricky stuff! If the mana flows easy, the deck wins easy. If it doesn't, you tend to die to yourself. It's a good start though, Blue + Cats ftw.

[Hanni]

Noted, and I realized the Plateau was missing as well :P It's GREAT in that build. IMS for Lynx, Lavamancer mana, 7 Burn Spells!

The real challenge of this deck is working the mana. There's only 2 Green sources for Nacatl/Goyf, but white sources are just as important to Steppe Lynx. I'd be tempted to cut a Fetch for a Trop, because getting them both wasted hurts, but white sources are more important turn 1.

Tricky stuff! If the mana flows easy, the deck wins easy. If it doesn't, you tend to die to yourself. It's a good start though, Blue + Cats ftw.


Yea, Plateau is mandatory for turn 2 Nacatl's beats. :p

Yes, working the mana is important. Luckily, having 13 fetchlands makes it alot easier, since you have alot more control over getting the right color sources.

2 green sources should be fine. With 12 fetches grabbing them, that's 14 virtual green sources, which makes accessing green pretty easy. If both get Wasted, it does shut down further green doods, but if you're fetching green in the first place, it means you're casting something green that turn. If the deck sticks a Nacatl or a Goyf, and the Trop gets wasted, you still have another Trop. If you fetch the 2nd Trop to cast another green dood, you shouldn't need the third green source. Plus, if they use 2 Wastelands to lock you out of green, that means you still have access to red and white. Since you've already cast 2 green doods anyway, chances are far greater that you'll be wanting to cast red spells.

Luckily, the color splashes are pretty light. The deck only plays 4 white spells, 8 green spells, and 10 red spells. Yes, it wants more white and red for Nacatl, but the splashes are still pretty light, especially white.

For the record, even though the deck is fetch heavy/dual light and 4c, the manabase is still pretty solid. I have alot of experience with this sort of manabase, because I used to (and still do) play 3c Naya Sligh alot. My Naya Sligh build runs 20 lands: 14 fetches, 4 duals, and 2 Mountains. This deck runs 19 lands, a 4th color, and no basics, but it also plays Brainstorm and a boatload of free countermagic to compensate.

Also, as far as opposing Wastelands are concerned: if your opponent's are focusing on attacking your manabase rather than addressing the real problem (fast beats, free countermagic, and burn), you're probably going to win that one anyway.

Compare opposing Wastelands used against normal Zoo: the real issue is dealing with their creatures.

The same philosophy applies here: if you're fetching a dual, it's because you're casting something with it. If they then Wasteland that land, the mana has already been spent to cast that spell. If they are spending their mana (Wasteland) destroying your mana, rather than answering the spell you cast, that's a good thing.

EDIT: Just wanted to say that I think this deck will quickly become a DTB with the current metagame, if this deck ever catches on. It is such a huge improvement to regular Zoo and Tempo Threshold, and absolutely demolishes Merfolk. It's far stronger against control decks than both regular Zoo and Tempo Threshold, and it should have a much better mirror match against other tempo aggro/control decks because it capitalizes on the early game tempo gains far better than any of the other ones do. The deck is also so dense in 1cc spells, and runs its own playset of Mental Misstep's, that it should be positioned much better against opposing Mental Misstep's than other similar decks.

Also, I'm going to playtest this deck a bunch. If I do end up finding Steppe Lynx to be lackluster (although I doubt it), Kird Ape/Loam Lion are suitable replacements.

Lastly, I'm hopefully going to figure out (during testing) what cards should be included in the sideboard. I can think of a ton of good options right now, so we'll see which ones shine the best.

A quick incomplete list:

Meddling Mage
Thrun, the Last Troll
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Krosan Grip
Qasali Pridemage
Red Elemental Blast
Blue Elemental Blast
Pithing Needle
Path to Exile
Submerge
Umezawa's Jitte

[Hanni]

What a great first match...

Whillo's Security Code: EB1AD3EE [???]
Hanni's Security Code: BB614D92 [Type 1.5]
It is now turn 1 (Whillo)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
<Hanni> hello
Hanni rolled a 11, using a 20 sided die
Hanni shuffles library
Whillo shuffles library
Whillo shuffles library
Whillo draws 7 cards
Whillo rolled a 17, using a 20 sided die
Hanni draws 7 cards
<Whillo> kp
<Hanni> kp
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Whillo plays Vault of Whispers from Hand
<Whillo> End my turn
It is now turn 2 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
<Hanni> Thinking
Hanni plays Flooded Strand from Hand
Hanni puts Flooded Strand to Graveyard from Play
Hanni's life total is now 19 (-1)
Hanni is looking its Library...
Hanni puts Tundra into play from Library
Hanni shuffles library
Hanni stops looking its Library...
Hanni taps Tundra
Hanni plays Steppe Lynx from Hand
<Hanni> Ok?
<Whillo> Ok
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 3 (Whillo)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
Whillo untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Whillo draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Whillo plays Ancient Tomb from Hand
Whillo plays Chrome Mox from Hand
Whillo puts Hurkyl's Recall to RFG from Hand
Chrome Mox's note changed: Blue
Whillo taps Vault of Whispers
Whillo taps Ancient Tomb
Whillo taps Chrome Mox
Whillo's life total is now 18 (-2)
Whillo plays Lodestone Golem from Hand
<Whillo> Ok?
Hanni plays Daze from Hand
Hanni puts Tundra to Hand from Play
Whillo puts Lodestone Golem to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Daze to Graveyard from Play
<Whillo> End my turn
It is now turn 4 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni plays Flooded Strand from Hand
Hanni puts Flooded Strand to Graveyard from Play
Hanni's life total is now 18 (-1)
Hanni is looking its Library...
Hanni puts Tropical Island into play from Library
Hanni shuffles library
Hanni stops looking its Library...
Steppe Lynx is now 4/5
It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
Hanni taps Steppe Lynx
Hanni taps Steppe Lynx
Whillo's life total is now 14 (-4)
It is now the Postcombat Main Phase
Hanni taps Tropical Island
Hanni plays Wild Nacatl from Hand
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 5 (Whillo)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
Whillo untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Whillo draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Whillo plays City of Traitors from Hand
Steppe Lynx is now 0/1
Whillo plays Lotus Petal from Hand
<Whillo> Thinking
Whillo taps Chrome Mox
Whillo taps Vault of Whispers
Whillo plays Thoughtcast from Hand
<Hanni> Ok
Whillo draws a card
Whillo draws a card
Whillo puts Thoughtcast to Graveyard from Play
Whillo taps Ancient Tomb
Whillo taps City of Traitors
Whillo's life total is now 12 (-2)
Whillo puts Lodestone Golem into play from Graveyard
<Whillo> Ok?
<Hanni> Ok
<Whillo> End my turn
It is now turn 6 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni plays Scalding Tarn from Hand
Hanni puts Scalding Tarn to Graveyard from Play
Hanni's life total is now 17 (-1)
Hanni is looking its Library...
Hanni puts Plateau into play from Library
Hanni shuffles library
Hanni stops looking its Library...
Steppe Lynx is now 4/5
Wild Nacatl is now 3/3
Hanni taps Tropical Island
Hanni taps Plateau
Hanni plays Lightning Bolt from Hand
Whillo puts Lodestone Golem to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Lightning Bolt to Graveyard from Play
It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
Hanni taps Steppe Lynx
Hanni taps Wild Nacatl
Hanni taps Steppe Lynx
Hanni taps Wild Nacatl
Whillo's life total is now 5 (-7)
It is now the Postcombat Main Phase
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 7 (Whillo)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
Whillo untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Whillo draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Steppe Lynx is now 0/1
Whillo taps City of Traitors
Whillo taps Vault of Whispers
Whillo plays Metalworker from Hand
<Hanni> Ok
Whillo taps Chrome Mox
Whillo puts Thoughtcast into play from Graveyard
Whillo draws a card
Whillo draws a card
Whillo puts Thoughtcast to Graveyard from Play
Whillo plays Vault of Whispers from Hand
Whillo puts City of Traitors to Graveyard from Play
Whillo taps Lotus Petal
Whillo taps Ancient Tomb
Whillo puts Lotus Petal to Graveyard from Play
Whillo is looking its Library...
Whillo plays Fabricate from Hand
<Hanni> -2
Whillo's life total is now 3 (-2)
<Hanni> Ok
<Hanni> resolves
Whillo puts Mycosynth Lattice into play from Library
Whillo shuffles library
Whillo stops looking its Library...
Whillo puts Mycosynth Lattice to Hand from Play
Whillo puts Fabricate to Graveyard from Play
Whillo taps Metalworker
Whillo reveals a Caltrops
Whillo reveals a Mycosynth Golem
Whillo reveals a Mycosynth Golem
Whillo reveals a Mycosynth Lattice
Whillo plays Mycosynth Lattice from Hand
<Hanni> didnt he
<Hanni> just come into play?
<Whillo> last turn
<Whillo> i didn't block
Whillo puts Hurkyl's Recall into play from RFG
<Hanni> i could have sworn
<Hanni> u just cast him
Whillo is now the controller of Steppe Lynx
Whillo is now the controller of Tropical Island
Whillo is now the controller of Wild Nacatl
Whillo is now the controller of Plateau
Whillo puts Plateau to Hand from Play
Whillo puts Steppe Lynx to Hand from Play
Whillo puts Tropical Island to Hand from Play
Whillo puts Wild Nacatl to Hand from Play
Whillo puts Hurkyl's Recall to Graveyard from Play
<Hanni> yea dude
<Whillo> End my turn
Whillo hides card in hand
Whillo hides card in hand
Whillo hides card in hand
<Hanni> u just cast metalworker
<Hanni> this tunr
<Hanni> i scrolled up
<Hanni> turn*
It is now turn 8 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
<Hanni> sorry to burst ur bubble
<Hanni> please dont cheat
<Hanni> scroll up
<Whillo> 30 seconds
It is now turn 9 (Whillo)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
Whillo untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Whillo draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Whillo taps Metalworker
<Hanni> ....
Whillo reveals a Caltrops
Whillo reveals a Mycosynth Golem
Whillo reveals a Mycosynth Golem
Whillo taps Vault of Whispers
Whillo plays Dark Ritual from Hand
<Hanni> ur not listening to me
Whillo puts Dark Ritual to Graveyard from Play
<Whillo> Thinking
<Hanni> ur metalworker was cast this turn
<Hanni> and then u tapped him
Whillo plays Mycosynth Golem from Hand
Whillo plays Caltrops from Hand
<Hanni> he does not have haste
Whillo plays Mycosynth Golem from Hand
<Hanni> u fucking noob
<Whillo> End my turn
<Hanni> i win
It is now turn 10 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
<Hanni> goodbye cheater
<Whillo> rage quit
<System> Session Lost
<System> Disconnected

I guess he literally had to cheat, since he was dead next turn if he didn't... Plus, I didn't even realize that he cheated before that when he played the 2nd Lodestone Golem. I wasn't paying attention and thought he had another one, but apparently he played it from his graveyard.

However, that's a VERY impressive win on my part. That's what, a turn 4 win? And I'm running 15 countermagic spells... :)

EDIT: Next up was Goblins, which I went 2-1. Game one he went first and had the nuts. A turn 1 Vial that I didn't have an answer to. I did some good early damage, but he ended up stabilizing with Ringleader into SGC into Ringleader into Matron into SGC and he just had too many chump blockers for me to push through. He had Gempalm for my Grim Lavamancer (the one matchup where I wish I had Stifle), and the lord pump from Chieftan was too much. Games 2 and 3 were total blowouts, with me clocking him fast as hell and him never getting or keeping anything on the board.

EDIT 2: So many edits! Still undefeated on MWS (not saying much).

Just wanted to point out that the Steppe Lynx version is very explosive, but does suffer from consistency issues sometimes, with both the manabase, and the damage dealt by Steppe Lynx. I'm enjoying the explosiveness, especially the turn 4 wins, but I think swapping out Steppe Lynx for Kird Ape is a viable alternative. Kird Ape allows the manabase to become much more stable, allowing the deck to cut a fetch and the Tundra to go up to 3 Trops and either 3 Volcs or 2 Plateau's. Also, he's a more consistent damage dealer than Steppe Lynx. I like both options and I'm going to test both to determine which one I think is better overall.

[Uncoordinated]

I just played that guy too! Surprisingly, he actually beat me, then declined to play a second game, citing the fact that he "doesn't play homosexuals". Back to back Mass Calcify owns nonwhite.

Anyway, I don't think Lavamancer is really needed. Zoo is supposed to be strong against other tribal types, which is what Lavamancer excels against. We could just board in more removal or stick him in the board in place of removal if we want him.

[luckme10]

Hanni that list is the closest I've ever seen to saying F-U to mental misstep....Like the kid that wouldn't eat peas so the mother fed him nothing but peas until he gave in... Anyways, the MWS log was really amusing. I'd be curious to see how this deck matches up against cat sligh or standard zoo decks, in a non cheating fashion?

[Hanni]

I just played that guy too! Surprisingly, he actually beat me, then declined to play a second game, citing the fact that he "doesn't play homosexuals". Back to back Mass Calcify owns nonwhite.

I bet if you went back and checked the MWS log, and really looked at it, you'd find him doing something illegal that you didn't catch. In my game with him, he cheated twice and then skipped my turn at the end of the match after I called him out on cheating.


Anyway, I don't think Lavamancer is really needed. Zoo is supposed to be strong against other tribal types, which is what Lavamancer excels against. We could just board in more removal or stick him in the board in place of removal if we want him.

Grim Lavamancer is a total friggin house. Most Zoo decks play him. The only Zoo deck I don't play him in is Cat Sligh, because he's too slow, but I also don't play Tarmogoyf in Cat Sligh either (because he's also too slow).

In this deck, Lavamancer is absolutely amazing. He's a 1 drop, which is great for curve reasons. Secondly, he's the only form of card advantage that the deck has. Thirdly, he smashes up on small aggro (Merfolk, Goblins, etc... which are all Tier 1). Lastly, he gives the deck excellent midgame reach against various decks, especially once the ground gets clogged. I wouldn't cut him after my limited testing with him... he's the second best creature in the deck (Wild Nacatl being the first).


Hanni that list is the closest I've ever seen to saying F-U to mental misstep....Like the kid that wouldn't eat peas so the mother fed him nothing but peas until he gave in... Anyways, the MWS log was really amusing. I'd be curious to see how this deck matches up against cat sligh or standard zoo decks, in a non cheating fashion?

When I run into some, I'll let you know.

On an unrelated note, here's the new list I'm going to try to playtest. It has a far more stable manabase, and Kird Ape is a less explosive but more consistent damage dealer than Steppe Lynx:

U/R/G/w Blue Zoo

// Lands (18)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures (16)
4 [R] Kird Ape
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells (26)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FNM] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll

EDIT: I was bored at work, so I decided to contemplate my playtesting session with my previous build (Steppe Lynx version), and theorize on ways to improve it. In my playtesting, literally 90% of my matchups were playing 4 Wasteland. While I was capable of squeezing out wins against most of them, it was sometimes difficult. Against a 4-Wasteland format, I would most definitely play the Kird Ape version instead.

However, the manabase I initially posted for the Kird Ape version was just thrown together. It took me a while to evaluate the amount of spells per color, dependancy on what color mana (and when), what duals I would most likely fetch first and then second, given a ton of various sample hands. I finally decided on a config that I feel is very solid. I'm going to edit my decklist above to reflect my changes.

EDIT 2: No love for this deck eh? Anyway, I've been logging some more more hours into playtesting with this deck. It seems like the only real worrisome matchup is midrange, like The Rock and such.

The Meddling Mages in the sideboard seem to be overkill; I've stomped several combo players without them now, fairly easy. With 15 countermagic spells in the maindeck and a clock as fast as Zoo (turn 4-5), the deck really doesn't need much extra hate. The Blasts in the board can come in against High Tide decks and other combo decks playing blue, and so I've cut the 4 Mages for the 4th Snare to free up some room.

With the extra room, I think Umezawa's Jitte is exactly what the deck needs against midrange decks. Turning Kird Apes and Nacatl's into bigger guys is pretty good stuff, and Jitte is pretty good against Goblins too. The deck has more than enough able bodies to wear it.

I also did some minor tweaks, like cut 2 Qasali for 2 Krosan Grip, and 1 Submerge for 2 Path to Exile.

For the maindeck, with the much more stable manabase now (with Kird Ape instead of Steppe Lynx), I'm getting consistent color sources early. However, with 19 lands and 4 Brainstorm in a deck with mostly 1cc and free spells, I'm running into issues with mana flood by the mid game. This deck really only needs 2-3 lands to operate at peak effeciency, and since it's designed around 1-for-1 trades, a land flood in the mid is killer. I've decided to cut the land count down to 18, and add a singleton Vendilion Clique. That takes my blue spell count up to 20 for FoW, my creature count up to 16, and gives me a decent evasive finisher.

I'll update my decklist above with these current changes.

Other than the occassional midrange aggro matchup (which I've still won quite a few of), this deck has been very sick in playtesting. Absolutely love it. Thanks for the idea, Troop!

[troopatroop]

Other than the occassional midrange aggro matchup (which I've still won quite a few of), this deck has been very sick in playtesting. Absolutely love it. Thanks for the idea, Troop!

Hah, This is what I come back to! Lol, I've just gotten a new puppy to take all my attention, but yeah! Kurtis Droge deserves the acclaim really, because Tropical Island -> Nacatl was his idea first. Kird Ape isn't as explosive as Lynx, but I think that the mana stability is paramount. Theres nothing worse than opening with a Tropical + Volcanic and being unable to cast Lynx. He blocks better against Merfolk + Goblins as well, which this deck does care about. I like your most recent list.

You might want to experiment with cutting the Red base (Lavamancer + Bolts) in order to accomidate for the Lynx. You always have Loam Lion I suppose, but Grim Lavamancer is nut high is some matchups. Just some food for thought! :D

[Hanni]

You might want to experiment with cutting the Red base (Lavamancer + Bolts) in order to accomidate for the Lynx. You always have Loam Lion I suppose, but Grim Lavamancer is nut high is some matchups. Just some food for thought! :D


No need, really. The Kird Ape version has been vastly superior in playtesting, and I'd rather dedicate my time improving it rather than trying to improve the Lynx version.

[Final Fortune]

Considering Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile have disynergy with Lightning Bolts, Chain Lighting and Daze respectively, what do you think about Dismember? It only fails to eliminate Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore and robots, and it's colorless removal that's uncounterable vs. Mental Misstep, Chalice of the Void and resistant vs. Counterbalance. I replaced Path to Exile with Dismember in Zoo and really liked not giving my opponent card advantage, and considering this deck is already pushing its manabase I think it's worth a shot.

[Sea R Hill]

Your blue card count is really low, and there seem to be no card I want to pitch to Fow, so maybe cut FoW?
Or you could play Fire & Ice, which up you blue card count and give you one more swing with your critters when you play Ice on their Tarmogoyf/KotR.

[kinda]

Your blue card count is really low, and there seem to be no card I want to pitch to Fow, so maybe cut FoW?
Or you could play Fire & Ice, which up you blue card count and give you one more swing with your critters when you play Ice on their Tarmogoyf/KotR.

The whole point is to play the best 1 drop creature and the best protection spell in the game together. I'm not opposed to fire//ice though...but a lot of people find it underwhelming.

Edit: This was my stab at nacatl+force a while ago. The war monks were a concession to the blue issue...but now we have mental misstep! I'm not sure why I didn't add grim lavamancer.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16924-Monkey-May-I&p=439791&highlight=#post439791

I want to test my first list -3 monk/-4 Steppe Lynx/-4 Path and +4 mental misstep/+3 grim lavamancer/+4 Bolt

[Sea R Hill]

As for the mana base, I have one question.
Why play Taïga?

When you go 1st turn Trop, Nacatl, you want to fetch a Plateau.
But if you go 1st turn Taïga, Nacatl, you then want to fetch a Tundra that you don't play
...

Same thing for Kird ape.
When you go 1st turn Volc, Kird Ape, you want to fetch a Savannah.
But if you go 1st turn Taïga, Kird Ape, you then want to fetch a Tundra again...

If you want your blue land out first for Daze or cantripping or Spell Snare, why fetch a Taïga that bring only one colour to the table?


If you think about it, not playing Taïga also is better for the fetch manabase. You can play Flooded Strand.

For example:
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn

[DragoFireheart]

I liked this deck idea a lot. I've always loved combining red burn with blue counter and beats. However, the blue count seems very low. Anyways to fix that? Also, can more information be given on the merfolk matchup?

Keep up the good work Hanni and troopatroop!

[Hanni]

Considering Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile have disynergy with Lightning Bolts, Chain Lighting and Daze respectively, what do you think about Dismember? It only fails to eliminate Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore and robots, and it's colorless removal that's uncounterable vs. Mental Misstep, Chalice of the Void and resistant vs. Counterbalance. I replaced Path to Exile with Dismember in Zoo and really liked not giving my opponent card advantage, and considering this deck is already pushing its manabase I think it's worth a shot.

I have not wanted Dismember at all in testing, but I'll keep the idea in mind.


Your blue card count is really low, and there seem to be no card I want to pitch to Fow, so maybe cut FoW?
Or you could play Fire & Ice, which up you blue card count and give you one more swing with your critters when you play Ice on their Tarmogoyf/KotR.

Who's list are you talking about? I haven't looked at Troops, but my list has 20 blue spells. 20 blue spells is more than enough to support Force of Will.


As for the mana base, I have one question.
Why play Taïga?

When you go 1st turn Trop, Nacatl, you want to fetch a Plateau.
But if you go 1st turn Taïga, Nacatl, you then want to fetch a Tundra that you don't play


Because Taiga produces green and red, which are both very valuable colors. The deck primarily wants blue, red, and green. The deck already has 2 of each blue dual, and so the next best dual becomes Taiga. Taiga may not help faciliate white for Nacatl, but I only run 4 Nacatl, Nacatl is the only preboard spell that requires white, and white is not necessary to cast/attack with Nacatl.

The deck also has 10 fetchlands to make sure I get the right colors when I need them. Sometimes, I'll have a hand with only Misstep and Force of Will, where I don't need to immediately fetch blue; sometimes my hand is heavy with green and red spells, aka a Zoo-heavy draw. The deck doesn't actually need to fetch white that often.

If I have a hand with Kird Ape and Tarmogoyf (no Nacatl), I usually go turn 1 Volcanic Island, turn 2 Taiga. This makes sure I still have a red source if the opponent has a Wasteland, which is arguably my most important color. My third fetchland can always grab a white source later if I need it.

If I do go first turn Nacatl, it's not that hard for me to go turn 1 Tropical Island, turn 2 Plateau. What land would I want next, after Trop Island and Plateau (assuming Plateau isn't getting Wasted)? Either Volcanic Island or Taiga, depending on my hand.

The only thing I can really say about Taiga is to simply test it. If it doesn't work for you, change it. However, it works for me.


If you want your blue land out first for Daze or cantripping or Spell Snare, why fetch a Taïga that bring only one colour to the table?


Because with the heavy fetchland count, it's not hard to grab a blue dual first, and the appropriate second dual.

What needs to be kept in mind is the importance of the color sources for this deck. If you cut Taiga, you're cutting 2 green sources and 2 red sources. For what? If you go tossing more blue duals in instead, you're raising the blue land count at the cost of green sources or the cost of red sources. The manabase is very balanced right now.

I had already considered and playtested with Flooded Strand and more blue duals before, and I switched to Taiga's after realizing how much more stable they make my manabase.


I liked this deck idea a lot. I've always loved combining red burn with blue counter and beats. However, the blue count seems very low. Anyways to fix that? Also, can more information be given on the merfolk matchup?


1 Vendilion Clique
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

That's 20 blue spells. How is that very low?

[Sea R Hill]

The only thing I can really say about Taiga is to simply test it. If it doesn't work for you, change it. However, it works for me.

Well I've tried it today and I'm not satisfied..
If you don't care about your Nacatl being only 2/2 that's ok, but in that case I'd strongly recommend you to run Skyshroud Elite instead of Wild Nacatl.


If I have a hand with Kird Ape and Tarmogoyf (no Nacatl), I usually go turn 1 Volcanic Island, turn 2 Taiga. This makes sure I still have a red source if the opponent has a Wasteland, which is arguably my most important color.


It is right that red is the most important colour. But in that very case, I'd go for Taïga first, in order to let my oppponent think I don't play blue.


That's 20 blue spells. How is that very low?

20 blue spells is really low for FoW.

Anyway, after some testing I really don't like Spell Snare. You never want to keep U open for countering their turn 2, this is a huge tempo loss. But waht blue card could we play instead? Ponder maybe, although I'd run a maximum of 2 Ponders (they would really be usefull for the midgame in that deck, and after sideboarding for finding hate).




I also really don't like your sideboard (well that is a lot of criticizm I know, but it's because I think the deck is great and I might play it ;) ).
Path is horrible, it makes your Daze very weak. With the clock of this deck, I think I'd never want PtE instead of Submerge.
Thrun is really expensive, and I don't think it is needed to beat Control.
I don't know what the K-Grip are here for, its is expensive and there is no artifact you want to get rid of.

I'd run sthg like that:

3 REB
3 Spell Pierce
4 Submerge
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Relic of progenitus
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Jitte/Qasali

[troopatroop]

A very informative, and well thought out post.

Well done. You explained it beautifully. I've been playing with Kird Ape, and he makes the manabase much more elegant.

16 Blue spells is the minimum for Fow, and 14 has worked for Eldrazi-Post (but not really). Conditional counters in MM and SS make FoW really attractive, and you can't deny the power of the card. Bant won a GP without it, but its plan doesn't revolve around 1 drops.

Oh, and everyone is way too scared of Mental Misstep. Play Tarmogoyf.

[Hanni]

@ Sea R Hill

I can see where some of your criticisms are coming from, since I didn't do a whole lot of in-depth individual card explanations when I posted my list.

However, I am not saying that I want my Nacatl's to be 2/2's, I'm saying that 2/2 Nacatl's still do something. If you're playing against an opposing tempo deck with Stifle and Wasteland, it's far more important to focus on building up blue, red, and green mana sources before attempting to grab white. Why? Because those decks can, and will, shut you off of your primary colors, if you get too greedy. 4 Nacatl is the only spell in the maindeck that needs a white source, and you don't actually need a white source to cast him or attack with him. Keep in mind too, that it's very easy to go turn 1 Trop, turn 2 Plateau, regardless if you're running Taiga's.

If you're not satisfied with the manabase, then change it. The manabase has been pure ownage for me, and I spent alot of time fine-tuning it to get it to where I want it.

I'll take the Skyshroud Elite comment as sarcasm.


It is right that red is the most important colour. But in that very case, I'd go for Taïga first, in order to let my oppponent think I don't play blue.


Actually, if I have a green and red heavy hand, I do fetch Taiga first. First of all, it doesn't show the opponent that I'm playing blue (and they will assume I'm playing normal Zoo), and it starts me off with a nice healthy manabase to cast the rest of the spells in my hand.


20 blue spells is really low for FoW.

This is totally wrong. 20 is THE benchmark for running Force of Will. I never agreed with the AfFOWnity lists that ran 16 blue spells and FoW back in the day, but I've played countless decks with 20 blue spells to support Force of Will. Go look at 90% of the DTB and Established Forum, as well as 90% of the top-performing (non-Merfolk) blue decks in the Top 8's of tournaments. 20 blue spells is what the average blue deck runs to support Force of Will. Not sure why this is even being questioned.


Anyway, after some testing I really don't like Spell Snare. You never want to keep U open for countering their turn 2, this is a huge tempo loss. But waht blue card could we play instead? Ponder maybe, although I'd run a maximum of 2 Ponders (they would really be usefull for the midgame in that deck, and after sideboarding for finding hate).


I think your dislike for Spell Snare may have to do with lack of playtesting. I'm not meaning to offend when I say that, but there are plenty of times during the early game where this deck can hold U open. You never want to hold U open on turn 1 for Stifle, but holding U open on turn 2 or 3 is rarely an issue. There are many powerful 2cc spells that you definitely want to be able to counter. If I were to cut Spell Snare, it would be for Spell Pierce, which essentially has the same problem (holding U open).

In another way to explain why holding U open past turn 1 isn't bad... this deck has 12 free spells, and the rest are 1cc (minus 4 Goyf and 1 Clique). This means that, on turn 2, this deck can play 2 spells (not counting the free ones), and it can play 3 spells on turn 3 (not counting the free ones, and assuming you hit your 3rd land drop). Alot of times, you have a turn 1 creature, and a turn 2 1cc creature (leaving 1 mana untapped). The other land can be used to cast Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt, Spell Snare, hardcast Misstep, etc.

Again, if you don't like Spell Snare, feel free to drop it. I never expect to post a list and have everyone copy it card for card... people have their own opinions, and you can take what I post for whatever it's worth to you. However, when I do alot of playtesting with a deck and post a list, it probably means I did my homework and there is very valid reason for running what I am, why, in however many numbers, so on and so forth.


I also really don't like your sideboard (well that is a lot of criticizm I know, but it's because I think the deck is great and I might play it ;) ).
Path is horrible, it makes your Daze very weak. With the clock of this deck, I think I'd never want PtE instead of Submerge.
Thrun is really expensive, and I don't think it is needed to beat Control.
I don't know what the K-Grip are here for, its is expensive and there is no artifact you want to get rid of.


Sideboards are very controversial, and mine is likely to change alot as I playtest more and figure out what specific matchups I need to address more and which ones I can address less.

In most matchups where I bring in Path, I cut Daze. Regardless, Path to Exile is additional removal... hard removal. Path to Exile dramatically improves my midrange aggro matchups. I also tend to bring in Submerge in addition to Path to Exile, to give me additional ways of answering big monsters.

Thrun is excellent against control. Whether I need him or not is to be determined, but for now, it's only taking up 1 spot in my sideboard to address a big chunk of the current meta, so I'm fine with that. Thrun in general is great against blue, and blue does seem to be the main player right now.





I don't know what the K-Grip are here for, its is expensive and there is no artifact you want to get rid of.


Oh, I don't know... maybe Shackles, Humility, Moat, Ensaring Bridge, Thopter Foundry, Chalice of the Void, just to name a few of the many problematic artifact and enchantments out there...

Nothing wrong with your sideboard though... it's really a matter of what you expect to face. My sideboard has tools to deal with a wide variety of problems, and so it's a great starting point for me to playtest from.

[DragoFireheart]

1 Vendilion Clique
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

That's 20 blue spells. How is that very low?


My bad, must have miscounted. 20 is the benchmark as you say.

I got no comments. Just waiting to see some testing done.

[DragoFireheart]

Oh, and everyone is way too scared of Mental Misstep. Play Tarmogoyf.

Didn't you hear? Tarmogoyf is a bad creature now!


Stoneforge Mystic
Lord of Atlantis
Vendilion Clique
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


These creatures are WAAAAY better! Time to sell your Goyfs! :laugh:

[troopatroop]

I've been testing the deck, and it's remarkably good! Mental Misstep helps it out alot, and all the cards hold their weight. Kird Ape and Wild Nacatl attack for a clean 5 damage, which in tandem with free counters and burn is often enough to kill them. The deck is just super annoying, my favorite play being Volcanic -> Kird Ape + Daze, Turn 2 fetch for a Tropical, Attack, play Wild Nacatl. Free counters are the real deal.

I think I might play Tin Street Hooligan sb, for Affinity/Chalice/Vial decks. Possibly over Qasali's?

[kiwi]

Im going to test this deck, Thanks guys for designing this deck! The only "defect" that I find is that the mana base is weak, ponder could be a solution but I think that the main deck with ponder would be less explosive.

One advice, ancient grudge in the sideboard is a very good option now.

[troopatroop]

Im going to test this deck, Thanks guys for designing this deck! The only "defect" that I find is that the mana base is weak

I'm with you, building this manabase has been a real challenge. Playing Kird Ape with Wild Nacatl might seem difficult to incorporate with blue, but in fact they make it easier when used together! With so few cards actually costing Blue in our deck (Brainstorm, 3 Snare, 1 Clique), and with well over half the deck costing R or G, we can run 2 Taiga, 2 Tropical Island, and 2 Volcanic Island to success. I ran as many as 4 Tropical Islands in previous builds w/o Kird Ape and Grim Lavamancer, but Kird Ape makes the deck two times more stable, from the manabase up. And of course, we play 10 Fetches to abuse variance to the max. After testing, you'll come to trust the manabase, is what I'll say. :D

...And with all that said, 20 blue spells in the deck? It's lunacy, but FoW, MM, and Daze are all free. Kird Ape makes Red a better ims, strengthening Plateau in the opener, which is there for Wild Nacatl. Meanwhile, Tropical Island boosts Kird Ape naturally as well. I just can't overstate how good Kird Ape is for the deck. Even though I'm almost always disapointed when it isn't a Wild Nacatl, I'll always know what it's doing for my manabase.



ponder could be a solution but I think that the main deck with ponder would be less explosive.

One advice, ancient grudge in the sideboard is a very good option now.

Ponder doesn't put on any pressure. You're the beatdown in almost every match, and you need speed to win with this deck. I'd rather play a Kird Ape or Grim Lavamancer turn 1. The most recent list plays 16! creatures, much more than Tempo Thresh. MM limits deckspace. :/
Ancient Grudge seems pretty good, probably better than Tin Street Hooligan. I just hate Chalice! :P

[Admiral_Arzar]

I 4-0'd my local with this (untested) list today:

4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendillion Clique

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Sylvan Library

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Savannah

Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Path to Exile
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Submerge

It was both consistent and powerful. I beat Enchantress, Burn, Goblins, and RUG Natural Order. The only game I dropped was to Goblins when I mulled to five and he dropped Blood Moon. I didn't play against much Wasteland which made things easier for sure, but the deck performed exceptionally well, and I think I'll be testing it a lot more. Nice job on the design guys!

[kinda]

Kird ape has always felt underwhelming to me...is he really better than the other potential options for the 8-11 1 drop spots?

There's:
Steppe Lynx
Goblin Guide
Nimble Mongoose
hidden gibbons
hidden herd

Mongoose is ideal with all the new landstill builds running around but I'm not sure if it can be supported.

@ admiral: 18 lands??? How was spell snare for you? I remember being unimpressed...I would probably cut them for fire//ice or lands.

[frenchy-man]

Just to say that sea r hill won a 60 players tournament with the deck. With the following list :
TERROY Cyril - 92853858
TEMPO ZOO


MD : 4 flooded trand
4 wooded foothills
2 fetch U/R
2 Itropical island
2 Volcanic island
1 Savannah
1 Taïga
1 Tundra
1 Plateau


3 Force of will
4 MM
4 daze
3 spell snare
4 brainstorm
1 ponder

4 lightning bolt
3 Chain Lightning

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 grim lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique


SB : 1 Force of will
3 reb
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of proge
1 ravenous trap
4 Submerge
3 Spell Pierce
1 Harnais cérébral

[troopatroop]

@ Admiral Arzar: How were the MD Spell Pierces, and Sylvan Library? Your list is only -3 Snare +2 Pierce +1 Library different than mine. I really like Spell Snare for dealing with Tarmogoyf, but Spell Pierce would do the same job in many situations (Hymn, Counterbalance, Jitte), and other jobs better. (Firespout, Jace, Moat, Vial, Ad Nauseam). Sylvan Library is an uber card, but idk if we need it here. Brainstorm + Fetches is available

@ Kinda: Goblin Guide is awful against Brainstorm. Steppe Lynx loses to itself. We want the deck to be consistent, so Kird Ape it is.

@ Frenchy-man: Could you get Sea R Hill to post his thoughts? I would love to hear his story.

I'm not sure I agree with his manabase. 1ofs of in Taiga, Savannah, Plateau, and Tundra! I've sometimes wanted the Tundra in testing, but the Savannah can be clunky. It only casts 8 things in the deck! 9 if you count Clique, and 10 if you play library, but I'm not sure that's enough.

He won the tournament tho, so that says something about the power level of the deck.

[Admiral_Arzar]

@ Admiral Arzar: How were the MD Spell Pierces, and Sylvan Library? Your list is only -3 Snare +2 Pierce +1 Library different than mine. I really like Spell Snare for dealing with Tarmogoyf, but Spell Pierce would do the same job in many situations (Hymn, Counterbalance, Jitte), and other jobs better. (Firespout, Jace, Moat, Vial, Ad Nauseam). Sylvan Library is an uber card, but idk if we need it here. Brainstorm + Fetches is available


I never really drew Library, honestly. I've also never played any version of Zoo before, but friends who play Zoo, Eva Green, etc. swear by how nuts it is, so I decided to work one in. Spell Pierce was good - I picked it for two reasons. First, I hate Spell Snare. Secondly, my meta is very heavy on combo and blue decks (also stuff like Enchantress, it saved my ass in that match repeatedly). When my opponents resolved 'Goyfs, I just attacked into them with my own stuff and burned them out (Lavamancer = awesome), or alternately ran straight over them with Jitte postboard (I think I submerged one at one point also).

[Hanni]

Kird ape has always felt underwhelming to me...is he really better than the other potential options for the 8-11 1 drop spots?

There's:
Steppe Lynx
Goblin Guide
Nimble Mongoose
hidden gibbons
hidden herd

Mongoose is ideal with all the new landstill builds running around but I'm not sure if it can be supported.

@ admiral: 18 lands??? How was spell snare for you? I remember being unimpressed...I would probably cut them for fire//ice or lands.

Kird Ape is the shit. We're not reinventing the wheel here; Kird Ape is a standard for most (fast) Zoo decks (or Loam Lion). All we did was combine the best cards from Zoo with the best cards from Tempo Thresh.

Goblin Guide is great in Sligh, because that deck doesn't care about the opponent gaining card advantage. This deck is different.

I playtested Steppe Lynx, and he's alot worse in this deck than Kird Ape. In Cat Sligh, he's the stone cold nuts, because you only need 2 swings from him. The burn density in this deck is far lower, and it needs to get more mileage out of its creatures. Plus, running Lynx destroys this decks manabase.

Nimble Mongoose cannot be run alongside Grim Lavamancer, and Lavamancer is alot better for this deck. Thrun in the sideboard, along with the Blasts, should be plenty for beating Landstill.


I've sometimes wanted the Tundra in testing, but the Savannah can be clunky.

I love the Savannah in my list. It lets me go turn 1 Volcanic Island, turn 2 Savannah, which is access to all 4 colors on turn 2.


He won the tournament tho, so that says something about the power level of the deck.


That's because this deck is insane. If it catches on and people start playing it more, expect alot of Top 8's with this deck. This deck is easily Tier 1 DTB material.

[kinda]

That's because this deck is insane. If it catches on and people start playing it more, expect alot of Top 8's with this deck. This deck is easily Tier 1 DTB material.

I'm a big fan of nacatl+blue but the deck has a poor zoo matchup and the worst manabase of any deck in legacy. I think combo needs to make a comeback for this deck to be seriously considered over zoo.

[Sea R Hill]

So I went 4-1-1 in the rounds and then made it to the finals for the win being 6th in the top 8.

The room was infested with Bant decks. And you know KotR is a big big issue, so it was intense!
Here is a quick report:

1st round vs Clément with Bant
I lost game 1, won game 2 and we didn't have time to finish game 3 which I was losing.
0-0-1

2d round vs Loic with NO-RUG
I won both games.
1-0-1

3rd round vs Jeremy with Landstill UBG
The previous night party finally got back to me as I did a huge misplay due to lack of sleep that cost me game 1 (I just forgot I had a Daze in my hand and let a decisive hardcasted FoW resolve...). I reconcentrate and I won next 2 games.
2-0-1

4th round vs Yoshihiro with Tempo Thresh
He is my friend and knows exactly what I am playing since I gave him my list the day before the tournament. I also know exactly what he is playing since he is playing my list (that I played at the BOM5). I won 2 games out of 3. Kird Apes eat Mongeese for breakfast.
3-0-1

5th round vs Pierre with Bant
In game one, after we both used all of our cards and entered in top deck strategies, he drew KotR, SFM and another great card while I was drawing 3 lands in a row.
In game two, he just had all the cards to handle every threat to the board, and also profit from a misplay of mine (due to the first time I was playing Mind Harness and so 1st time playing KotR too: I can't remember why, but I chose to play Kird Ape instead of Tarmogoyf for a very likely bad reason, so I couldn't play Tarmogoyf on the next turn due to the cumulative upkeep).
3-1-1

6th round vs Jean-Michel with Enchantress
Counterspells and fast clock is enough against this deck, and if you counter the right spells it is pretty easy. I let Moat resolve in the 1st game, saving my Fow for Solitary Confinement (that he didn't cast), handling the last points of damage with Grim and Bolts. In game 2 Spell Pierce is really good. This is the only one time of the tournament I sided in the 4th FoW!
4-1-1


TOP 8

Quarterfinals vs Florian with Bant
I won 2-1, losing 2d game after mulliganning to 6 and being mana death.

Semifinals vs Arnaud with Landstill UBG
I won 2-0. During the 1st game we had an epic counter battle. I was attacking with the only creature I had for a few turns when he played a Smother. This may not be 100% correct but if I remember correctly I played Spell snare, he played MMS, I played MMS, he played MMS, I played Daze, he played FoW, I played MMS. All this for a 2-3 vanilla creature. Yes, that is how good Kird Ape is!

Finals vs Guillaume with Bant
I won 2-0, winning game 2 through a Thrun equipped with Jitte.


So now on the deck:

About the spells:
MMS is the nuts.
Spell snare was juste fine, sometimes really good, sometimes really bad. I think it is due to the fact that I played against a lot of Bant decks, and Spell Snare doesn't counter KotR. Snare is also really bad when on the draw, as you don't want to hold U open and prefer to cast a creature instead. But I'd still play it. Post board, this is not so bad when you have access to Submerge to Bounce their turn 2 and counter it afterwards with Spell Snare.
Only 3 FoW is the way to go, this is too much card disadvantage. I also often sided out the 3rd one.
Daze is awesome, with the clock of the deck this is basically a "free" hard counter most of the time.

About the land:
The manabase is just fine. Only 1 Taïga is really good, because you want your blue mana. Also Savannah is really good, it is mandatory.

About the creatures:
Kird Ape is really really good. Tarmogoyf not so much, surprisingly.
Grim Lavamancer is so much better in Tempo Zoo that in Tempo Thresh, I now actually like the card!
Clique was bad all day long. The only time it could have been relevant was in round 5 and I lost anyway. Most of the time it gets destroyed as a response to the trigger and is never decisive. Opposing Cliques also work as creature removal, which is bad news. I might not be totally objective as I have never liked the card, but it was bad every time I played it (and playing it can also be an issue, especially if you play 2 Taïgas ;) ).

About the sideboard:
The side board was really awesome, I intensively used every single card except for Ravenous Trap and Tormod's Crypt (I didn't met any Dredge nor Reanimator). I might cut the Ravenous Trap for a more usefull card, as it is good only versus Dredge which is pretty dead anyway due to MMS countering all their discard outlets minus Firestorm and LED which are not played a lot anyway.
I will look for a card to handle KotR (a better one than PtE or StP that are very dissynergic with the deck's strategy).

[Seraphus]

My team decklist:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5858&iddeck=42456

It's from some time ago...

[Hanni]

I'm a big fan of nacatl+blue but the deck has a poor zoo matchup and the worst manabase of any deck in legacy. I think combo needs to make a comeback for this deck to be seriously considered over zoo.

My Zoo matchup hasn't been that bad. Force of Will isn't spectacular, but I tend to dominate the early game, and then they tend to dominate the midgame. It's really a matter of balance, and whether or not I can do enough damage early to pull out a win in the midgame. Mental Misstep is a total house in this matchup, since it counters all of their removal and alot of their creatures. Daze is still really good because they curve out alot early, and it's a good answer for Knight of the Reliquary. Spell Snare is solid at keeping Goyfs and Qasali's off the board, too.

Postboard, I cut the Forces for 2 Jitte and 2 Path to Exile or 2 Submerge (not sure yet). If I'm on the draw, I cut 2 Daze for the other 2 removal spells. Jitte's pretty good in this matchup. I'm considering fitting in 2 Stoneforge Mystic to my sideboard, but I'm not sure about that yet.

Against everything else, this deck (typically) has better matchups across the field than regular Zoo. Why? Because the countermagic lets it answer randomness, Brainstorm increases consistency to an already consistent deck (because of its redundancy), and the free-ness of the countermagic literally lets it dominate the early game. Being able to resolve a guy on turn 1, and protect him against removal, makes this deck far more aggressive in the early game. This deck is capable of consistently putting more damage through the red zone faster than traditional Zoo (especially Big Zoo), which improves a variety of matchups.

This deck is also better positioned against Merfolk than traditional Zoo, because it can fight back against their countermagic with its own countermagic; nothing is worse than getting your Grim Lavamancer countered by their Mental Misstep, for example. Since Merfolk is the top deck right now (based on recent tournament results), I'd say maximizing the win % against that matchup is key to dominating the current metagame.

Also, being able to counter Natural Order is a pretty big deal against a field of midrange Bant decks, which seem to be popping up more.


Clique was bad all day long. The only time it could have been relevant was in round 5 and I lost anyway. Most of the time it gets destroyed as a response to the trigger and is never decisive. Opposing Cliques also work as creature removal, which is bad news. I might not be totally objective as I have never liked the card, but it was bad every time I played it (and playing it can also be an issue, especially if you play 2 Taïgas ;) ).

The few times I've drawn Vendilion Clique, he has literally won me the game. The ability to strip away bombs from the opponent's hand is nice, but being a 3/1 flier is the main reason why he's won me games. Most decks don't run fliers, and so he's basically a Lightning Bolt to the face every turn. Casting him on the opponent's turn usually means they won't have an answer for him right away. However, if you've not had success with him, he's easily cuttable. As only a 1-of, he's not critical to the deck whatsoever.


I will look for a card to handle KotR (a better one than PtE or StP that are very dissynergic with the deck's strategy).
Umezawa's Jitte is not bad against midrange in general, as long as they are not removal heavy. A 3/3 Nacatl with an active Jitte will usually outsize a KotR in the midgame, and a 4/5 Goyf with a Jitte most certainly will. With 4 counters on a Jitte, both Nacatl and Goyf will usually outsize a KotR in the lategame. Since this deck has many expendable creatures, losing a 2/3 Kird Ape to get a Jitte active usually isn't a problem.

Between 2 Submerge, 2 Path to Exile, and 2 Umezawa's Jitte, I think we have plenty of tools for dealing with midrange decks. Not to mention all of our countermagic, to keep their bombs off the table... or probably more importantly, to make sure we can apply enough pressure in the early game so that we can close it out before they start resolving their midrange stuff. I think the more problematic creature to worry about is Rhox War Monk, to be honest.

[troopatroop]

I love the Savannah in my list. It lets me go turn 1 Volcanic Island, turn 2 Savannah, which is access to all 4 colors on turn 2.

Okay, but to be fair, this only matters if you need a 3/3 blocking. White mana is neglibable, and you'll get another mainphase to find a plains. Savannah hasn't been awful for me, and in certain situations I fetch it (like the one you said), but in hands where I open it, a Tundra or Tropical would've made my hand keepable. It's the only land that gets even a second look, imo.



That's because this deck is insane. If it catches on and people start playing it more, expect alot of Top 8's with this deck. This deck is easily Tier 1 DTB material.

I agree with this. You have all the tools to compete with the DTB, along with really positive matchups across the board.

Edit: Sower of Temptation seems pretty good against KoTR and RWM!

[Hanni]

Edit: Sower of Temptation seems pretty good against KoTR and RWM!

Not a bad idea. Since we run so many guys, they will likely waste all of their removal dealing with our other guys. The only thing that worries me is costing 4 mana... so maybe Mind Harness would be even better than Sower.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Not a bad idea. Since we run so many guys, they will likely waste all of their removal dealing with our other guys. The only thing that worries me is costing 4 mana... so maybe Mind Harness would be even better than Sower.

We should consider Gilded Drake as well. It's cheap, immune to Mental Misstep, and also lacks a cumulative upkeep.

[Sea R Hill]

The few times I've drawn Vendilion Clique, he has literally won me the game. The ability to strip away bombs from the opponent's hand is nice, but being a 3/1 flier is the main reason why he's won me games. Most decks don't run fliers, and so he's basically a Lightning Bolt to the face every turn. Casting him on the opponent's turn usually means they won't have an answer for him right away. However, if you've not had success with him, he's easily cuttable. As only a 1-of, he's not critical to the deck whatsoever.

I don't see why casting Clique on the opponent's turn means they don't have an immediate answer. It is pretty much the opposite. If you cast it at the end of their draw step, which seems to be the best time to cast it if you want to avoid your opponent dropping annoying permanents like KotR or Pernicious Deed, they have all their lands untap and one more card in hand. Most of the times they are gonna Bolt/StP/Smother/GftT/whatevercreatureremovaltheyhave your Clique in response to the trigger.
I'd love to cut that card, but I don't want to run less tan 20 blue cards and I don't like to run less than 16 creatures (the most important point here is the 20 blue card count). So what blue creature can we play? That is a difficult question to answer, because they aren't so many good blue creatures!



Umezawa's Jitte is not bad against midrange in general, as long as they are not removal heavy. A 3/3 Nacatl with an active Jitte will usually outsize a KotR in the midgame, and a 4/5 Goyf with a Jitte most certainly will. With 4 counters on a Jitte, both Nacatl and Goyf will usually outsize a KotR in the lategame. Since this deck has many expendable creatures, losing a 2/3 Kird Ape to get a Jitte active usually isn't a problem.

Between 2 Submerge, 2 Path to Exile, and 2 Umezawa's Jitte, I think we have plenty of tools for dealing with midrange decks. Not to mention all of our countermagic, to keep their bombs off the table... or probably more importantly, to make sure we can apply enough pressure in the early game so that we can close it out before they start resolving their midrange stuff. I think the more problematic creature to worry about is Rhox War Monk, to be honest.

Well I know you must have more experience than me with the deck (as I have only playtested 1 hour against random decks and played a tournament), but it seems that you haven't played against KotR yeat. If they are under pressure, first thing they are gonna do with Knight is fetch Maze of Ith, which pretty much annihilates your Jitte. That's why beating KotR is hard, because once your opponent untaps with KotR, he pretty much have two Walls, one of them destroying one creature of yours per turn if you try to swarm by attacking with everything.

About RWM, it has not been played for a long time...
And I'd rather play 3rd and 4th Submerge before PtE, which is pretty bad beacause it makes your Daze much worse. In a tempo deck like this one, Submerge really shines.

[Sea R Hill]

Oh, I don't know... maybe Shackles, Humility, Moat, Ensaring Bridge, Thopter Foundry, Chalice of the Void, just to name a few of the many problematic artifact and enchantments out there...

Well I prefer to try and counter chalice than destroy it afterwards, which is much more difficult when you can't BS/Ponder to find your 2 copies of K-grip. With 4 Fow, 4 Daze, 3 Snare and 3 Pierce post board this must not be that hard.
As for other artifacts and enchantments you mentionned, they are way to slow to be problematic. Even if Humility hits the battlefield, attacking with some 1/1s will usually close the deal as they will be low in life by the time they can cast it (and 4 mana cries "counter me with Daze or Pierce"). Ensnaring Bridge also isn't that much trouble, because your creature's strengths are very low (except for Tarmogoyf) and you can use Grim and Bolts/Chain to finish them anyway.

I played Tempo Thresh with great success one year and a half ago, and that's where I find out that countering enchantments is usually better strategy than destroying them. Tempo Thresh and Tempo Zoo have the same strategy and number of counters (TT has even less counters than this deck) except that the strategy is reversed, so they play the same way in many senses.

[Final Fortune]

Unless Rhox Warmonk is a 1x for Green Sun's Zenith, I think Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull have more or less replaced Rhox Warmonk in aggro-control and, unfortunately for us, control as well. Thankfully you can remove Stoneforge Mystic before Batterskull resolves with Lightning Bolts, but once he's down he's difficult to get rid of - which is why I really like Dismember somewhere between the MD and the SB in this deck because Path to Exile is trash and you're not absolutely guarnateed to see Tropical Island vs. other blue decks right now (oh, and it tells Mental Misstep to fuck right off)

[Hanni]

@ Clique

The beauty of having flash is that you can cast him whenever it is convenient. Let's say an opponent casts a Phyrexian Dreadnought, or taps a Vial. You can respond to the opponent with Clique, to disrupt their play. If the opponent taps out to cast something, you can respond with Clique to strip their removal away. If you need to dig for a specific card in your deck, you can cast Clique and trade a dead card (like an excess land) to try and find the spell you need. He's a very versatile creature, which is what I meant by him being clutch at winning me games when I've seen him.

The most important aspect is still the fact that he's a 3 power flier. Serendib Efreet could replace him, but I'm very pleased with what Clique does for this deck.


Well I know you must have more experience than me with the deck (as I have only playtested 1 hour against random decks and played a tournament), but it seems that you haven't played against KotR yeat. If they are under pressure, first thing they are gonna do with Knight is fetch Maze of Ith, which pretty much annihilates your Jitte. That's why beating KotR is hard, because once your opponent untaps with KotR, he pretty much have two Walls, one of them destroying one creature of yours per turn if you try to swarm by attacking with everything.


Not everyone runs Maze of Ith in their deck with KotR, so that's why I haven't had that issue yet, but I can see how a Maze would ruin the Jitte plan. I think the best way to answer KotR outside of the Jitte/Path/Submerge plan would be to follow Troop's suggestion, and use something like Threads of Disloyalty, Mind Harness, Sower of Temptation, etc.


About RWM, it has not been played for a long time...


Only because Zoo and Goblins have been seeing less play. Zoo just won a tournament through a field of Merfolk, so expect traditional Zoo to increase in popularity. Once that happens, expect Bant decks to play RWM again. RWM is a pain in the ass for Zoo (and therefore us), to deal with.


Well I prefer to try and counter chalice than destroy it afterwards, which is much more difficult when you can't BS/Ponder to find your 2 copies of K-grip. With 4 Fow, 4 Daze, 3 Snare and 3 Pierce post board this must not be that hard.
As for other artifacts and enchantments you mentionned, they are way to slow to be problematic. Even if Humility hits the battlefield, attacking with some 1/1s will usually close the deal as they will be low in life by the time they can cast it (and 4 mana cries "counter me with Daze or Pierce"). Ensnaring Bridge also isn't that much trouble, because your creature's strengths are very low (except for Tarmogoyf) and you can use Grim and Bolts/Chain to finish them anyway.


Well, I'd prefer to counter Chalice too, but if you're on the draw, you only have 4 Force of Will to stop it. If it resolves, 95% of this deck is shut off. Even if you're on the draw, you are almost never going to hold U open on turn 1 for Spell Snare or Spell Pierce, when you could be casting a Wild Nacatl or Kird Ape instead.

Krosan Grip gives you the ability to deal with not only Chalice, but many other problems. I do a 2/2 split with Qasali since Qasali can beat for 3.


I played Tempo Thresh with great success one year and a half ago, and that's where I find out that countering enchantments is usually better strategy than destroying them.

There's a fundamental difference between Blue Zoo and Tempo Threshold, though. Tempo Thresh holds U open for the first few turns of the game, so they can easily afford to Snare or Pierce a turn 1 Chalice. Blue Zoo is dropping guys on the first few turns of the game instead.


Unless Rhox Warmonk is a 1x for Green Sun's Zenith, I think Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull have more or less replaced Rhox Warmonk in aggro-control and, unfortunately for us, control as well. Thankfully you can remove Stoneforge Mystic before Batterskull resolves with Lightning Bolts, but once he's down he's difficult to get rid of - which is why I really like Dismember somewhere between the MD and the SB in this deck because Path to Exile is trash and you're not absolutely guarnateed to see Tropical Island vs. other blue decks right now (oh, and it tells Mental Misstep to fuck right off)

Batterskull is only replacing RWM right now because Zoo isn't seeing heavy play. Once it does, people will realize how bad it is in that sort of meta, and go back to RWM. A 1/2 (SFM) will rarely stay in play long enough to "Vial" in a Batterskull, and at 5 mana, the Batterskull opponent is going to be dead before it gets hardcasted.

[GGoober]

This deck is awesome. Tested about 6 games against it. It's pretty solid. I would highly advice going to 3 Cliques maindeck for a mid-game. The deck's strength is free damage from cats/apes and when they start not going the distance, lavamancer seals it up. I think this is the part where Clique is crucial: it strengthens the mid-game together with Lavamancer.

Also, the Brainstorm makes the deck a whole lot stronger in the mid-game. What I noticed happening was this (the pilot may not notice this specifically but I'll point it out here).

This deck is extremely tight in the early game, so it's hard to use Brainstorms in the early game, but that's a good thing, because you dont want to waste mana brainstorming early anyway since you want to go turn 1/2 threats and daze/mm accordingly. When you do get to brainstorm, it's on turns 3-5, which is exactly the time this deck should be brainstorming. It falls all nicely in the execution of the deck, and this also happens to maximize the time you should be brainstorming (mid-game to refuel hand).

Too many people play Brainstorms incorrectly that we forget to see how powerful it is sometmies :/

But I think the deck might work even stronger if 3 Cliques can be worked in the MD. It's also amazing against STandstills.dec/Jace, i.e. decks which you might have problematic matchups with e.g. Landstill (with EE, if people start playing EE again lol).

[Hanni]

This deck is extremely tight in the early game, so it's hard to use Brainstorms in the early game, but that's a good thing, because you dont want to waste mana brainstorming early anyway since you want to go turn 1/2 threats and daze/mm accordingly.

This should be common knowledge by now, but it is unfortunate that it's not. Just because you have a Brainstorm in your opening hand, does not mean you should be casting Brainstorm on turn 1. This isn't just true for this deck, it's true for any deck playing Brainstorm. Unless you need to dig for something very specific on turn 1, it is far better to save it until you need to re-fuel or dig for something specific. I forget who it was that wrote an SCG article about Brainstorm a few years ago (I think, maybe not that long ago)... I'm wanting to say AJ Sacher, but I'm not sure. Everyone should read that article. I'll look around for it and link it in this thread when I get the time.

@ 3 Clique

This deck works off of a very low curve. Between only running 18 lands, all of which are nonbasic (and 10 are Stifle-able), and between Daze bouncing lands back to hand, hitting 3 lands (two being UU) takes time. 3 Clique would clog early hands horribly, whether it's pitchable to FoW or not. Clique is Legendary, so it's not like you can get 2 Clique's into play at a time. Most importantly, Clique is slow at 3cc... this deck wants to have the opponent mostly dead by the time it has 1UU available. Clique is an unecessary but nice to have finisher for the midgame, which is why I run a singleton.

[Heresy]

The beauty of having flash is that you can cast him whenever it is convenient. [...] If the opponent taps out to cast something, you can respond with Clique to strip their removal away. Tapping lands dont use the stack.

[Hanni]

I didn't mean casting him in response to tapping out, I meant casting him after they tap out and cast their spell. I should have been a little clearer, sorry.

[Sea R Hill]

Not everyone runs Maze of Ith in their deck with KotR, so that's why I haven't had that issue yet, but I can see how a Maze would ruin the Jitte plan. I think the best way to answer KotR outside of the Jitte/Path/Submerge plan would be to follow Troop's suggestion, and use something like Threads of Disloyalty, Mind Harness, Sower of Temptation, etc.

I have never seen a list With kotR and without Maze. Seems like a pretty bad list!:tongue:
I am running one Mind Harness (frenchy-dude posted my list on page 4) and might go up to two copies, just to make sure. Or a Gilded Drake, in order to be MMS-proof.


Only because Zoo and Goblins have been seeing less play. Zoo just won a tournament through a field of Merfolk, so expect traditional Zoo to increase in popularity. Once that happens, expect Bant decks to play RWM again. RWM is a pain in the ass for Zoo (and therefore us), to deal with.


Good news is that REB handles RWM pretty well.



Well, I'd prefer to counter Chalice too, but if you're on the draw, you only have 4 Force of Will to stop it. If it resolves, 95% of this deck is shut off. Even if you're on the draw, you are almost never going to hold U open on turn 1 for Spell Snare or Spell Pierce, when you could be casting a Wild Nacatl or Kird Ape instead.

Krosan Grip gives you the ability to deal with not only Chalice, but many other problems. I do a 2/2 split with Qasali since Qasali can beat for 3.

There's a fundamental difference between Blue Zoo and Tempo Threshold, though. Tempo Thresh holds U open for the first few turns of the game, so they can easily afford to Snare or Pierce a turn 1 Chalice. Blue Zoo is dropping guys on the first few turns of the game instead.


If I know my opponent is playing Stax, I will wait one turn every day just to make sure they can't cast CotV succesfully. These decks are very slow, so I don't mind losing one turn. Losing one turn is better than losing the game.
If they were a lot of Stax and MUD in my meta I would play some artifact removal, but they are very few decks like that in France (I guess it is because those are all bad decks that rely on good draws only). Sadly that was not the case at the BOM which is an international tourney (I played Tempo Thresh this year and after my bye I met MUD on round 2, MUD on round 3 before dropping in round 4)...
Those are pretty bad MUs anyway, and I might be wrong but I don't think that 2 Qasali and 2 K-Grip are enough to deal with those decks.
That's why I'd rather play some Spell Pierce that are usefull in a lot of different MUs, where artifact removal are only usefull vs Stax-like.

Also, I would never go under 4 Submerge. They are so much synergic with the deck, and drawing multiple Submerge usually means game over for your oppononent.

[troopatroop]

This deck continues to be beast... speaking of beasts, what does everyone think of this guy...

http://i55.tinypic.com/11in72c.png

He costs about 1 mana too much. He's also about 2/2 bigger than what we "need", but he's a massive 7/7 for 4 mana. KoTR usually won't be bigger than this guy, and our early creatures often eat STPs or PtE. Is there any room for this bomb? Something tells me Vendilion Clique is still better.

At least it pitches to FoW! :D

[Admiral_Arzar]

He costs about 1 mana too much.


Agreed. If this cost three I would definitely consider testing it (even if it was 3 for a 5/5).

[troopatroop]

Agreed. If this cost three I would definitely consider testing it (even if it was 3 for a 5/5).

I'm still going to test it. This deck is fairly midrange, and he basically says "answer me or lose". Hell, even Progenitus is a 2 turn clock, and this deck can get them to 14 very reliably. The only times I'm losing games with this deck are when my early guys get answered. Ruhan seems very good at winning the game on his own after these circumstances. He'll get pitched to Force or Shuffled away if the game demands it, but having such a big weapon is attractive to me. Hell, we do get to 4 mana alot, and KoTR is the only castable creature that can stand up to it.

[Sea R Hill]

A 4-mana 3-colors vanilla creature doesn't deserve any testing in this deck, even if it were 10/10.

[lordofthepit]

I'm still going to test it. This deck is fairly midrange, and he basically says "answer me or lose". Hell, even Progenitus is a 2 turn clock, and this deck can get them to 14 very reliably. The only times I'm losing games with this deck are when my early guys get answered. Ruhan seems very good at winning the game on his own after these circumstances. He'll get pitched to Force or Shuffled away if the game demands it, but having such a big weapon is attractive to me. Hell, we do get to 4 mana alot, and KoTR is the only castable creature that can stand up to it.

This card isn't an answer to Progenitus, since it must attack if able.

If you drop Ruhan before your opponent Natural Orders in Progenitus, he'll be swinging into an untapped 10/10. If he Show and Tells in a Progenitus or Emrakul and you drop Ruhan off that too, same thing will happen.

If you play Ruhan after Progenitus comes into play AND your opponent is at 7 or less, you would win if your opponent tries to race for some reason. But unless you already have significant board advantage (in which case you should have won anyway and any creature besides Ruhan would also be able to tag along on the alpha strike), your opponent would just hold Progenitus back one turn to Abyss away your Ruhan.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Has anyone tested Terravore in this deck? He seems much easier to cast than Knight of the Reliquary, and provides a huge beater. He also makes us really vulnerable to graveyard hate, but having something bigger than opposing Knights seems like it would be rather valuable. In other news, after getting pwnd by Junk (Wasteland + Vindicate lulz), I think I'm going to play at least one additional land.

[troopatroop]

This card isn't an answer to Progenitus, since it must attack if able.

If you drop Ruhan before your opponent Natural Orders in Progenitus, he'll be swinging into an untapped 10/10. If he Show and Tells in a Progenitus or Emrakul and you drop Ruhan off that too, same thing will happen.

If you play Ruhan after Progenitus comes into play AND your opponent is at 7 or less, you would win if your opponent tries to race for some reason. But unless you already have significant board advantage (in which case you should have won anyway and any creature besides Ruhan would also be able to tag along on the alpha strike), your opponent would just hold Progenitus back one turn to Abyss away your Ruhan.

Where in my post did I say that Ruhan was an answer to Progenitus? I didn't, I compared him to Natural Order (a 10/10) at 4cc. K?

Grim Lavamancer and Terravore is a Non-bo, and Lavamang is much more integral to the deck.

[DragoFireheart]

This deck continues to be beast... speaking of beasts, what does everyone think of this guy...

http://i55.tinypic.com/11in72c.png

He costs about 1 mana too much. He's also about 2/2 bigger than what we "need", but he's a massive 7/7 for 4 mana. KoTR usually won't be bigger than this guy, and our early creatures often eat STPs or PtE. Is there any room for this bomb? Something tells me Vendilion Clique is still better.

At least it pitches to FoW! :D


Ehh, he's only ok. No trample is a downside and the fact you need three colors means decks with Wasteland could screw you out of playing him. At a CMC of 4, I don't think he fits the curve either. Test him, but don't hold your breath.

[troopatroop]

Ehh, he's only ok. No trample is a downside and the fact you need three colors means decks with Wasteland could screw you out of playing him. At a CMC of 4, I don't think he fits the curve either. Test him, but don't hold your breath.

Yeah, I was just pointing out that he was playable. The curve really does stop at 3 tho, so he doesn't make the deck. It's a shame tho!

I'm sticking with my Clique and Spell Snares for now. Snare is the only cuttable card imo. Spell Pierce could serve the same roll however, and I'm gonna test -3 Snare +2 Spell Pierce +1 Vendilion Clique. That Faerie has been great for me, and I'd like to make him more of a primary plan. It makes me weaker against Zoo, as Tarmogoyf / Pridemage / Stoneforge / Price of Progress can be very painful, but I like what Pierce gives me for these Control decks popping up. It counters Brainstorm and Jace and Crucible or Firespout as well! It's a close race, so I'm not counting Spell Pierce out yet.

Excluding Brainstorm, Spell Snare is the only reason to keep untapped blue mana. Yeah Clique has Flash, but like Brainstorm it's always active. You know you're going to play Clique, but you don't know if they're gonna cast something at 2cc. Sometimes Spell Snare is jesus in a magic card, but if we took out this need to be untapped entirely, what would the deck look like? This is my experimental build.

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Plateau

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

This is -3 Spell Snare +2 Vendilion Clique +1 Grim Lavamancer. More Creatures, Tapping out is 100% comfortable, and 19 Blue spells for FoW. You can always board a few tax counters for Combo matchups, but in general, you're still pretty good against them pre-board. Spell Snare helps against Hymn and Standstill tho, and can really save a game from the start, but it's a cuttable card imo, especially because it's the only card to hold mana for that doesn't have assurace, save Lightning Bolt, which I'm not throwing at their life total. Tapping out with 12 Free counters seems sick.

Edit: So in the first 3 games I "Cockatriced", I realized that with only free Counters, I'm more inclined to want to Fetch the Savannah and Plateau early, which coupled with a naturally drawn Taiga can't cast Vendilion Clique turn 3. This is very interesting, since I want to run more Clique alot.

Edit2: Trying +1 Vendilion Clique +2 Ponder. This may be it! Ponder is pretty good, and 2x has been just about perfect. 3x Grim Lavamancer is fine.

Oh, and it's worth examining if Misty Rainforest is better than Flooded Strand. Plateau is arguably a more important fetch target than Taiga, because Taiga is my least fetched for dual, although almost always a welcomed card in my opener. Flooded Strand also nabs the Savannah like Misty. Scalding Tarn also may not deserve to be 4x, as it cannot fetch the Savannah like both Misty and Strand. Maybe this fetch configuration?

-1 Scalding Tarn, -2 Misty Rainforest/ + 3 Flooded Strand

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand

Wooded Foothills fetches everything, leaving 6 debatable slots for Fetches. This 3/3 split gives you 2 more fetches to grab the Plateau and 1 more for Savannah, at the expense of fetching a Taiga with 3 less. These numbers are how many of the 10 fetches target the dual

10-Tropical Island
10-Volcanic Island
10-Plateau

7-Taiga
7-Savannah

Now, the Taigas are the clear losers in playing 3 Flooded Strand, but all the other duals improve. Naturally drawing Taiga is still great, and it deserves the 2x for that reason alone. However, often you only have 1-2 Fetches, and in tandem with the 4 core blue duals which are more common to draw in an opening 7, it's more common to want to fetch Plateau or Savannah to pump the creatures.

In testing this has been completely fine, and it's mostly corner cases where these things turn up, but it's worth thinking about. Taiga is probably the least important dual, not that using a fetch for one is unlikely, but it's rare that that'll be the dual you need. Savannah and Plateau are often to duals you need for Nacatl, while Taiga is a better natural draw. Does this make sense, or am I missing something?

The manabase of this deck is really great, and optimizing it has been fun! :D

[GGoober]

The manabase of this deck is really great, and optimizing it has been fun! :D

Really? O_O Let's just say that unless this deck draws the nuts, Stifle/Waste really sets the deck's board development back, when paired with MMs against Brainstorms. I'm not making blind claims here, but our playgroup has demonstrated that Waste/Stifle/Junk strategies tend to beat this deck's manabase. But I do agree that the manabase for this deck is as good as it can possibly get if you don't play basics. If your meta has little Waste/Stifles, this deck is pretty retardedly strong.

[troopatroop]

Really? O_O Let's just say that unless this deck draws the nuts, Stifle/Waste really sets the deck's board development back, when paired with MMs against Brainstorms. I'm not making blind claims here, but our playgroup has demonstrated that Waste/Stifle/Junk strategies tend to beat this deck's manabase. But I do agree that the manabase for this deck is as good as it can possibly get if you don't play basics. If your meta has little Waste/Stifles, this deck is pretty retardedly strong.

What's the nuts, 2 Fetchlands? 3 Lands? Those are like, frequent circumstances. Stifle/Waste strategies and Junk strategies are way different.

Junk is midrangey, cards like Pernicous Deed and Knight of the Reliquary will hurt us more. Hymn and Thoughtseize don't much help either, but the die roll is everything here. If you're on the play, Getting Wasted is them basically praying you won't have another land, because it's stunting their development too, and your creatures will be pounding in. It's not an unwinnable matchup, but I don't feel favored on the draw, especially now that I'm forgoing Spell Snare. You are the beatdown against Junk, so doing everything in your power to stay ahead is paramount.

Stifle is good against our deck. Mental Misstep is great against it. We can also counter back, and these things are draw dependant. This being said, Stifle is being played at an all-time low right now, which I think should change because it's probably wrong. Team America is about the only deck that still plays it, and not always anymore. Merfolk has dropped it and Tempo Thresh has fallen off the map. In my build with 6 cantrips and 0 snare, it's much easier to find consistent land. The deck plays off 1 and 2 mana about as good as any other deck, and doesn't want more than 3 lands. 18 is a fairly low landcount, and I'll concede that this can be exploited.

Even Tempo Thresh and Team America I find to be winnable matchups. Sometimes they just don't have enough removal for your 1 drops, and they die to the pressure. I don't want to play against Junk, but if that's the entirety of what I'm afraid of then I think the deck is a pretty good choice. You can't have it all. Also, Basics would be terrible. I hope you're not suggesting them.

[Hanni]

Junk, and similarly Jund, are the only two matchups that I've had issues with. They run discard to attempt to counteract our countermagic early, a large number of removal spells to help minimize the damage they take, and then signicantly stronger creatures once the game gets to the midgame.

Against everything else, literally, the 4c manabase has been a nonissue. Why? Because if they spend time setting themselves back using Wasteland, or casting Sinkhole (or any other shitty LD spell like Stone Rain), then they aren't answering the creatures that are already on the board and attacking. Yes, a 2/2 Nacatl isn't as potent as a 3/3, but it's still clocking the opponent. LD for the sake of LD doesn't screw this deck over nearly as much as LD backed up by discard, a boatload of removal, and bigger midrange threats.

I have considered two strategies for beating Junk/Jund/Rock/etc. The first one, is to board into Submerge/Paths/maybe Jitte to try and keep their bigger guys off the board. The problem with Jitte is that, against the super heavy removal versions, there sometimes won't be a guy to stick a Jitte to. The problem with Submerge, is sometimes one free attack just isn't enough. Path obviously gives them card advantage, more access to color sources, weakens our Daze's, etc.

The second strategy, would be to make a transformational sideboard of 1 Chain Lightning, 4 Rift Bolt, and 4 Price of Progress. The idea here is that, Cat Sligh destroys decks like Junk/Jund/etc. I know this from experience playing both Cat Sligh, and Junk. The transformational board won't exactly turn us into Cat Sligh, but it should give us a large enough burn density to improve the matchup. This is just a thought at this point though, and it has absolutely no testing behind it yet.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I've come to question whether Force of Will is actually good enough in this deck. Sounds like insanity, but I found that I've very rarely wanted to destroy my hand stopping one threat, and with a low amount of library manipulation, top-decking it in the late game when you need burn is awful. At least Daze/Misstep/Pierce/Snare can all be cast without another card. I'm not sure entirely what I would play instead though, probably more burn. More thoughts later, I'm tired.

[kinda]

I've come to question whether Force of Will is actually good enough in this deck. Sounds like insanity, but I found that I've very rarely wanted to destroy my hand stopping one threat, and with a low amount of library manipulation, top-decking it in the late game when you need burn is awful. At least Daze/Misstep/Pierce/Snare can all be cast without another card. I'm not sure entirely what I would play instead though, probably more burn. More thoughts later, I'm tired.

You side out force vs. decks without key spells.

Edit: You bring in things like submerge which are still tempo and fit in with the plan but are just much better in the given matchup.

[troopatroop]

You side out force vs. decks without key spells.

Edit: You bring in things like submerge which are still tempo and fit in with the plan but are just much better in the given matchup.

Thank you. Force of Will comes out on the play, and Daze comes out on the draw.


I've come to question whether Force of Will is actually good enough in this deck. ................. More thoughts later, I'm tired.

Yeah you sleep on that for a minute. Force of Will is the Tempo deck's wet dream. It's the reason we can dismantle combo strategies. Play Force.

[Hanni]

There are more matchups where Force of Will is good against than there are matchups that Force of Will is bad against. Combine that with the fact that we run alot of situational blue spells, which make it easy to pitch cards to, and there you go. This deck isn't designed around card advantage, it's designed around agression, and Force of Will facilitates that. We gladly give up card avdantage for early game dominance, where a 2/3 Kird Ape is at its best. If you're looking for a midrange tempo deck, then either New Horizons or Team America is a better deck to look into.

Cutting Force of Will postboard vs certain decks is a solid strategy, and sideboarding more burn sounds more and more like the best plan we have against some decks. Even though we run 0 basics, I really think Price of Progress deserves some sideboard space. If the progress is 8-10 damage, then that's a price I'm willing to pay.

[St3B]

Originally Posted by St3B
The main difference was that we skipped on Force of Will

I stopped reading right there.

Quotes like that made me stop posting in this thread, even though I still like the idea of the deck. It's funny though how quickly people discarded ideas like Kird Ape and not running FOW and after some testing realized that these suggestions weren't that wrong after all. I do believe though, that at the moment FOW is a necessity do to the success of Hivemind and Landstill. I also like the idea of playing Price of Progress in the SB, as people won't suspect it from a deck with a 4C manabase.

[Machahiko]

I've been really interested in making a zoo deck with blue splash, mostly for Meddling Mage. What are your opinions about meddling mage or has anyone tested it out yet?

[troopatroop]

I've been really interested in making a zoo deck with blue splash, mostly for Meddling Mage. What are your opinions about meddling mage or has anyone tested it out yet?

My first interaction with blue, was Big Zoo running 1 Trop and 1 Volc MD with 4 Mage in the Sb. Total copy of a Japanese list that won a big event, and he was stellar. It was much more of what the deck needed.

In this deck, I'm not sold on him. I could see it in the sideboard, but we're already solid vs. combo. I'll give him some testing, but I don't think we can devote 4 SB slots on it, with Submerge/REB/Krosan Grip/Spell Pierce/Price of Progress available, it'd be hard to fit.

[Hanni]

Meddling Mage is mostly unecessary. I had him in my sideboard in my first few drafts with this deck, but he was overkill everytime I sideboarded him in. As a beater, a 2cc 2/2 is pretty bad, and the deck rarely needs the extra disruption he offers. If you're getting beat by combo, you're playing this deck wrong. Against control, they have a varied enough removal suite to deal with him. What decks do you really need to shut a spell down against, that the other 15 countermagic spells cannot? This deck can win as quickly as turn 4, so it's not like you need to shut anything down permanently.

[kinda]

I think this might be decent:

4 nimble mongoose
4 wild nacactl
3 kird ape
4 tarmo

2 volcanic fallout
4 lightning bolt
4 fire//ice

4 mental misstep
4 daze
3 force of will
4 brainstorm

Land: 20

SB:
3 grim lavamancer
4 submerge
4 tormod's crypt
1 force of will
3 open

[troopatroop]

I think this might be decent:

4 nimble mongoose
4 wild nacactl
3 kird ape
4 tarmo

2 volcanic fallout
4 lightning bolt
4 fire//ice

4 mental misstep
4 daze
3 force of will
4 brainstorm

Land: 20

SB:
3 grim lavamancer
4 submerge
4 tormod's crypt
1 force of will
3 open

Why does Volcanic Fallout deserve to be MD? It replaces Lavamancer and is good against... Merfolk? That doesn't make sense to me. Nimble Mongoose with non-shrouded creatures is weak, because they'll eat all the removal anyway. Grim Lavamancer is better than Nimble Mongoose, because 2 direct damage is better in the mid-late game, as it compliments your quick beaters better than the 3/3 shroud on turn 4+.

I've almost never wanted Chain Lightning to be Fire and've rarely wanted it to be Ice. Chain deals with Wild Nacatl, Goblin Lackey, and Noble Hierarch infinitely better. 1cc >>>>>>> 2cc. This deck especially wants 1cc cards with Daze.

Yeah, that list might be decent, but I think it's strictly inferior to the list we already have. Can't figure out the 20 lands? >_<

In other news, I'm testing the deck with 3 Ponders, and I think it's where I wanna start for CaNGD if it ever starts :P

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn

2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Plateau

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
3 Force of Will

SB:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
3 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge


I decided to draw 5 sample hands, and wanted to share my thoughts on their playability.

#1: 2x Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Vendilion Clique, Daze, 2x Wooded Foothills

2land w/critters Keep. Turn 1 fetch for a Tropical, Wild Nacatl + Daze, Turn 2 Fetch for a Plateau, play Kird Ape, swing for 3. Next turn you'll have drawn 2 more cards (I drew a land and a Brainstorm), and Vendilion Clique for evasive damage turn 4 on. This hand has no burn, but Wild Nacatls are serious pressure.

#2: 2x Kird Ape, Tarmogoyf, Ponder, 2x Wooded Foothills, Scalding Tarn

3land 2apes and a goyf, keep. Turn 1 fetch for a Volcanic, Kird Ape. I draw Force of Will. Play Tarn, Ponder into Vendilion Clique, Kird Ape, and Taiga. I choose to draw Vendilion Clique, because my FoW is dead otherwise. Fetch for Taiga, Kird Ape, Attack for 2 + FoW something or not. Draw Ponder. Play Tarmogoyf + Ponder (Chain Lightning, Tarmogoyf, Brainstorm), attack for 4. I put Chain on top with Tarmogoyf underneath it. 4 Quick creatures + FoW + Chain seems pretty good.

#3: Ponder, Chain Lightning, Daze, Mental Misstep, 2x Scalding Tarn, Flooded Strand

3land 0 creatures. Hm, I say keep, but you're searchin for a Goyf or Nacatl. I fetch for a Tropical and Ponder, into Grim Lavamancer, Lightning Bolt, Foothills. I keep the cards, fetch for a Volcanic and play Grim Lavamancer. Misstep their 1 drop if it's not a creature, Daze if it's a war, Draw Lightning Bolt and play Grim Lavamancer. That series of options seems very good against Merfolk decks. I drew a Vendilion Clique like a boss after too, and that's a quick clock.

#4: Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Lightning Bolt, Ponder, Tropical Island, Volcanic Island, Scalding Tarn

3land w/ goodness. Keep. Turn 1 Trop Nacatl, Turn 2 draw Chain Lightning, play Volcanic, Swing for 2, Chain + Ponder into 2land + Fow (shuffle), draw Wild Nacatl. I draw Scalding Tarn. Fetching Savannah here lets you cast 2 creatures in the same turn, but Tarn doesn't fetch it, pity we drew 2. This can happen, and I'd fetch for a plateau. Nacatl + Goyf turn 3 could happen, but if I play my second bolt + Tarmogoyf I still curve out.

#5: 2x Chain Lightning, 2x Mental Misstep, Daze, Tropical Island, Wooded Foothills

5 Answers + 2 Lands? Keepable, but you need a clock. Grim Lavamancer was on top, not much to say! :D Easy keep, imo. Counterburn in modern form. This type of draw gives you a great plan against Merfolk or Zoo while maintaining game against Combo. Mental Misstep and Daze are just awesome. That's all for now, I think Ponder gives this deck Mid-Game strength, but may weaken our Combo and Control match w/o Spell Snare.

[troopatroop]

I tested the deck against Mathman (jimp) WW (Figure/Avenger/Stoneforge-Equipment/Cataclysm/Top), and won 7 games of 8 with this list. I would go -2 Spell Snare, +1 Force of Will, +1 Vendilion Clique, but they were unavailable.

2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand

3 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf

Mental Misstep was insane, Daze was great, and Ponder was excellent as well. I won a few games by shuffling stuff away with Cantrips.

Grim Lavamancer with Burn AND Cantrips AND Creatures AND Free Counters is just nut high. I didn't lose a game where I got Lavamancer out, and he made it much more likely for me to burn him out if I had the board leveled. The only game I lost was the first, where I kept a hand with no 1drop creature.Tarmogoyf, Brainstorm, Chain, Bolt, 3 Fetch. I drew 3 more lands, and he got Jitte active on Serra Avenger through Daze.

I'll tell ya, the deck is just super. Wild Nacatl got Pathed a few times, but for the most part he was just the best card in the deck. 2 games I just Nacatl/Ape tempo'd him out by turn 5, and that's with Counters on every turn + Burn to finish. Turn 1 Daze with a 1drop won me every game it happened in, and Tarmogoyf was the 4/5 I needed him to be. I would feel very comfortable playing against WW in a tournament.

[ajfennewald]

I re stumbled upon this thread and i must say that the deck looks pretty sweet in its current form. I have all the cards cept the blue duals and some fetches. I can borrow the blue duels but maybe not he fetches. I have 4x arid mesa,4x wooded foothills, 4x windswept heath, 4x misty rainforest. Would using some combo of those f up the mana base alot?

[ScatmanX]

#2: 2x Kird Ape, Tarmogoyf, Ponder, 2x Wooded Foothills, Scalding Tarn

3land 2apes and a goyf, keep. Turn 1 fetch for a Volcanic, Kird Ape. I draw Force of Will. Play Tarn, Ponder into Vendilion Clique, Kird Ape, and Taiga. I choose to draw Vendilion Clique, because my FoW is dead otherwise.
They why would you Ponder at all if you were not looking for anything? Just hold the Ponder to remove to FoW.

Anyway, just wanted to say that this deck looks really fun to play. I might give it a try.

[troopatroop]

They why would you Ponder at all if you were not looking for anything? Just hold the Ponder to remove to FoW.

Anyway, just wanted to say that this deck looks really fun to play. I might give it a try.

I'm gambling on finding a blue card, and the odds are roughly 1 in 3. With 4 potential cards to see, it's one I'm willing to make, and library manipulation is good anyway. I could find Brainstorm to get rid of FoW, which is good, and I also get a shot at choosing my draws. It was really for the sake of doing something, and seeing if I could find the blue card, which I did. Not Pondering leaves you drawing blind, and drawing more land is pretty bad there. I chose to draw Vendilion Clique to keep FoW active, because holding Kird Ape there gives us nothing over the Blue card. I got to dodge the Land 2 cards down, but I might've been fetching anyways...

Granted, there is alot going on here as far as what the "best play" is. Pondering seemed pretty safe, but I debated holding it.


I re stumbled upon this thread and i must say that the deck looks pretty sweet in its current form. I have all the cards cept the blue duals and some fetches. I can borrow the blue duels but maybe not he fetches. I have 4x arid mesa,4x wooded foothills, 4x windswept heath, 4x misty rainforest. Would using some combo of those f up the mana base alot?

Pick up some Scalding Tarns or Strands. Arid Mesa and Windswept Heath are basically unplayable, as they don't fetch Tropical Island and Volcanic Island respectively. Wooded Foothills is the "uber" fetch, with Scalding tarn in second, and Flooded Strand/Misty Rainforest battling for the third place. You're close, just two more fetches and you could play the deck. 4 Misty Rainforest is pretty bad, however, because it fails to fetch the plateau, which is arguably the most important fetch target.

[ajfennewald]

I know i have seen fire//ice mentioned but has anyone considered it to replace spell snare and give the deck a higher burn density while maintaining blue count for FOW. Seems like a possible alternate configuration.

[Hanni]

Cutting the Spell Snare's for Fire//Ice is definitely a possibility, one that I had considered before. There are alot of problematic 2cc spells that you do want to be countering with Spell Snare, but there are pros and cons to both. Postboard, Snaring a Goyf after you Submerge it is savage, but then again, tapping the Goyf to attack into it (and drawing a card), then Submerging it generates savage tempo too. The biggest appeal to running Fire//Ice instead of Spell Snare, to me, is the increase in burn density, which would overall improve the midrange aggro matchups a little (like Rock and Jund). I haven't had the chance to playtest at all lately, as I've been working 80-ish hours a week. For those who don't like the Spell Snare's, I'd say Fire//Ice seems like a reasonable replacement.

[ajfennewald]

I played this deck at my LGS today. I played the one form the first thread -3 spell snare + 1 vendillion clique +2 spell pierce (I don't own spell snare) I beat a couple underpowered decks Then lost to merfolk. I made a few poor plays but he did have back to basics which he drew both post side games. Anyway i love the deck and will probebly keep playing it sometimes.

[Mr. Safety]

I tested the deck against Mathman (jimp) WW (Figure/Avenger/Stoneforge-Equipment/Cataclysm/Top), and won 7 games of 8 with this list. I would go -2 Spell Snare, +1 Force of Will, +1 Vendilion Clique, but they were unavailable.

2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand

3 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf

Mental Misstep was insane, Daze was great, and Ponder was excellent as well. I won a few games by shuffling stuff away with Cantrips.

Grim Lavamancer with Burn AND Cantrips AND Creatures AND Free Counters is just nut high. I didn't lose a game where I got Lavamancer out, and he made it much more likely for me to burn him out if I had the board leveled. The only game I lost was the first, where I kept a hand with no 1drop creature.Tarmogoyf, Brainstorm, Chain, Bolt, 3 Fetch. I drew 3 more lands, and he got Jitte active on Serra Avenger through Daze.

I'll tell ya, the deck is just super. Wild Nacatl got Pathed a few times, but for the most part he was just the best card in the deck. 2 games I just Nacatl/Ape tempo'd him out by turn 5, and that's with Counters on every turn + Burn to finish. Turn 1 Daze with a 1drop won me every game it happened in, and Tarmogoyf was the 4/5 I needed him to be. I would feel very comfortable playing against WW in a tournament.

Curiosity here: do you find Daze to lose value without Wasteland? Just curious, I know Wasteland would be uber-greedy with your mana-base setup, just a simple question is all.

I'm also curious about Kird Ape compared to Nimble Mongoose...have you considered Goose as Nacatl #5-8?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Curiosity here: do you find Daze to lose value without Wasteland? Just curious, I know Wasteland would be uber-greedy with your mana-base setup, just a simple question is all.

I'm also curious about Kird Ape compared to Nimble Mongoose...have you considered Goose as Nacatl #5-8?

I'll answer this. Goose does not play well with Grim Lavamancer. Goose is also not big on the first or second turn, which is when this deck wants big one-drops. We don't ride one difficult-to-kill creature to victory like Canadian Thresh, we dump a bunch of big dudes into play and then disrupt our opponent with free counters and burn.

Daze does lose a LITTLE value without Waste, but it's still pretty good. It can of course be boarded out on the draw if necessary.

[Mr. Safety]

Thanks for that! I don't have experience with the deck.

One more (sorry!): do you play 7 cantrips in order to keep the land count around 18, similar to Thresh lists?

[troopatroop]

Canadian Thresh played 14! color producing lands and 4 Wasteland. That's serious skimpage. 18 Lands, all color producing, with 7 cantrips is much safer, and what I would recommend. 1 Wasteland is rarely your downfall, although 2 can be dicey.

Daze is really awesome in this deck, even without Wasteland. The ability to play Nacatl or Ape and MM with Daze backup is top tier shit. Dazing a Force of Will is just GG.

[ajfennewald]

I have been playing the deck alot on cockatrice. I am having a little trouble with sideboarding. The main problem is that i always want to take out blue cards but not necessarily FOW

[whiley85]

I have been playing the deck alot on cockatrice. I am having a little trouble with sideboarding. The main problem is that i always want to take out blue cards but not necessarily FOW

+1

[Sea R Hill]

I almost always want to take out at least 1 FoW in G2-3 (and I play only 3 of them MD).
Play Spell Pierce in the SB so u still have a big amount of counters without having that much blue card count problems.

[TsumiBand]

Could a deck like this be the one Phantasmal Image (m12) is looking for?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120585&d=1309233685

A deck with 4 Goyfs, 4 GSZ and 2 - 4 of this duder. Honestly, I think the upshot of being able to play a redundancy of creatures like Goyf, KotR, insert brilliant efficient beater here, outweighs the drawback of this guy when you consider that most of the removal one would worry about in this format is probably going to just kill him anyway, so his drawback is usually just redundant. In the meantime he can copy threats across the board which could be bigger/grander in scope than your own, stupid flyers or Reanimated goons or what-have-you. As other threads have mentioned, for 1U you get to skunk a Legendary creature an opponent controls, so that's fun too, should it come up.

It might be a little stupid to see your 'blue Goyf' get mauled by a Grim Lavamancer or a Lightning Bolt, but I think stupid burn aside most of the removal you'd be worried about, again, just kills it outright anyway.

[troopatroop]

Could a deck like this be the one Phantasmal Image (m12) is looking for?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120585&d=1309233685

A deck with 4 Goyfs, 4 GSZ and 2 - 4 of this duder. Honestly, I think the upshot of being able to play a redundancy of creatures like Goyf, KotR, insert brilliant efficient beater here, outweighs the drawback of this guy when you consider that most of the removal one would worry about in this format is probably going to just kill him anyway, so his drawback is usually just redundant. In the meantime he can copy threats across the board which could be bigger/grander in scope than your own, stupid flyers or Reanimated goons or what-have-you. As other threads have mentioned, for 1U you get to skunk a Legendary creature an opponent controls, so that's fun too, should it come up.

It might be a little stupid to see your 'blue Goyf' get mauled by a Grim Lavamancer or a Lightning Bolt, but I think stupid burn aside most of the removal you'd be worried about, again, just kills it outright anyway.

Blue Goyf pitches to FoW, so I guess that's a plus. Goyf and Kotr are the only good targets, and I could see if in Vial Bant much more. This deck wants 1-2 creatures on the board, and copying Kird Ape is lackluster.

Being blue is sick for that guy.

[Hanni]

Phantasmal Image is awful in this deck. The worst thing this deck can do is pay 1U for a 2/3. The occasional copying of a Goyf or an opponent's KotR does not outweigh the utter garbage this card is when you can only copy a 2/3 Kird Ape. What do you do when there are no creatures in play?

As mentioned, in a deck like Vial Bant, or some other creature heavy deck playing blue, I can see this being decent. However, why pay 1U for a situational creature that is likely going to just be copying another 2cc creature, when you could just play a nonconditional creature instead? Just my thoughts on this, however, but this deck is definitely not the deck for that card.

On another note, here's the list I've been playing around with lately. I decided to cut Clique (it's been the worst card in the deck for me), and the 3 Spell Snares (my opponent always seems to have cast their 2cc spell before I am able to cast Snare), for 4 Fire/Ice. I really like this change. The increase in burn density helps tremendously at closing games out, and tapping down blockers to push additional damage through, while cantripping in the process, has been fantastic.

Here's the newest list, although I'm still debating some of my sideboard choices:

// Lands (18)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures (15)
4 [R] Kird Ape
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells (27)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Fire / Ice
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [LG] Chain Lightning
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

[troopatroop]

Fire/Ice is growing on me. It's got it's positives for sure.

Fire can be 2 for 1 against Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins, and Elves. What Fire doesn't kill Ice taps down for 1 attack swing (which is huge-ish), leaving the burn suite to finish them off. Ice also pitches to FoW, a critical detail for those last 17-20 Blue cards. 16 would be a little light, imo.

I wish we could fit Ponder in there somewhere, even just as 2x. I've been testing alot with Ponder, and it's grown on me. 2 more Sorceries for Tarmogoyf can't hurt, and it gets you through awkard draws. I'm thinking, -1 Fire/Ice -1 Force of Will, + 2 Ponder. These seem like the weakest cards in the deck, and while Force of Will 4 seems weird to call out, I just don't feel like we need it. I DO NOT want to be casting two forces in one game, because this deck can't handle the card DA. Decks like Merfolk, Zoo, or Maverick don't care about losing a specific card. Force of Will is often boarded out for me, and I could see -1 Daze as well. The 4th Fire/Ice, I don't think i'll miss it. I don't want to draw 2 of this card either.

There is the "drawback" of Ponder, which is that it doesn't "do" anything, but the deck is fast with it. Avoiding Savannah and Plateau is 1337.

[Hanni]

I have yet to try playtesting with additional cantrips in this deck, so I don't have the experience to draw from yet as to whether or not its worth it. I can see tons of justification for it. Obviously you only use them early if its absolutely necessary, otherwise it's a quality enabler for the midgame where spending a single blue mana is irrelevant when the spells you'll draw with it also cost a single mana. Obviously early game you just won't need the quality enabler, when you have tons of other spells to be casting.

However, I'm becoming more and more dependant on Fire/Ice against my midrange aggro matchups. Without Spell Snare to keep Goyf off the board, tapping him down to push through a bunch of damage is the next best thing - especially when it cantrips. I cannot tell you how many times the 1/1 damage split has been relevant either; it's crazy just how many X/1's are seeing play these days. The additional reach (burn to the dome) in the midgame has also been nothing short of excellent. Fire/Ice allows the deck to be far more aggressive on a tempo basis, and is that extra edge I think I was missing for my midrange aggro matchups.

In fact, I haven't even been bringing in Price of Progress at all (against midrange aggro). The few times I did, it didn't work. Either I win the tempo war during the early game and PoP is win-more, or I fail to put enough pressure on early and PoP just doesn't do enough. I can see PoP being a total house against non-basic heavy control decks. However, I'm considering just cutting the 4 PoP's for 4 Spell Pierce, which are just as good against control, but are also phenomenal against combo.

Against my midrange aggro matchups (w/ green), I've been cutting 3 Chain Lightning for 3 Submerge. Between 4 Fire/Ice and 3 Submerge, I've been able to adequately control the flow of damage enough to squeeze out very close wins. I think that is about as good as those matchup are going to get.

tl;dr I'm probably going to cut 4 PoP's and 1 Submerge from my sideboard.

Also, as far as midrange aggro (w/ green) is concerned, the only difficult ones have been Junk/Rock/Jund. Team America and Bant have been roughly 50/50 or better, and straight G/W has proven favorable.

[Qweerios]

Anybody in favor of Vendilion Clique? It is a great beater that flies over enemy lines during midgame, pitches to FoW early game, and has an amazing ability all game long. I played a couple of Cliques and 1-2 Ruhan of the Fomori in my blue zoo and they performed extremely well. It gives the deck some scaling as opposed to going all out early on making the deck a bit more like zoo rather than sligh.

[ajfennewald]

I don't like the double blue mana requirement. With any kinda mana disruption it is often too much to manage to cast it at all early in the game.

[whiley85]

I brought Blue Zoo to a 51 man tourney yesterday and dropped after 5 rounds cause I had to go home to my wife ;-)
I beat Combo, I beat an UB Stalker deck with lots of removal, I lost to combo with 2 unlucky hands and mull to 5, I beat GW aggro and lost to dredge.
The sb was crap and random so pls no comments on that.
I played the list earlier in this thread with lynx instead of kird and sea drake instead of clique. My intention for drake was he supports lynx for constant dmg, being aggro with 4 power and evasion and an effectice cost of 2 in the 4th turn with 3 lands in play.
The conclusion was that lynx doesn't need the landdrops later on cause I already won the game or the drawback from sea drake was not wanted in that situation:


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Sea Drake
4 Force of Will
2 Fire // Ice
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Tundra
4 Brainstorm
SB: 3 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 4 Price of Progress
SB: 2 Spell Pierce

In my opinion this deck outclasses Canadian Threshold in being aggro. The two losses happened due to bad luck and an mediocre sideboard. I never had an issue with my manabase and therefore I would always play lynx over kird.
Maybe I add a taiga for a tropical cause you always want multiple red sources for mancer action + red cards in the same turn. The 12 fetches worked great with brainstorm.
Also I agree with hanni playing fire/ice in this deck. If canadian Thresh is able to play 4 copies, blue zoo can play them even better. The fact that ice can often be a timewalk+cantriping with tapping an opps land while having pressure on the table is fantastic. Cmc3 spells in general are not needed/wanted in most cases.
In the few games I lost I was only 3-4 dmg away from victory. Wouldn't be fireblast an option in sb if you want to be fast as hell against combo or other race duells?
The hardest matchup I had was against dredge. If you can't disrupt him from dredging in the early game the ground is stalled with moebas and zombies until his army his ready for alpha strike. In that case I wished volcanic fallout in my hand...

I'm very interested if everybody's already sold on kird cause I love lynx and its explosivness...

[Sea R Hill]

On another note, here's the list I've been playing around with lately. I decided to cut Clique (it's been the worst card in the deck for me), and the 3 Spell Snares (my opponent always seems to have cast their 2cc spell before I am able to cast Snare), for 4 Fire/Ice. I really like this change. The increase in burn density helps tremendously at closing games out, and tapping down blockers to push additional damage through, while cantripping in the process, has been fantastic.

Here's the newest list, although I'm still debating some of my sideboard choices:

// Lands (18)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures (15)
4 [R] Kird Ape
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells (27)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Fire / Ice
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [LG] Chain Lightning
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage


What's funny is that way you say is pretty much what I was saying a few pages ago: Clique is bad, irrelevant at best; Holding U open for Spell Snare is hard; F/I could be a good inclusion.

As for Clique I think there is no discussion to have.

I'd like to talk about Spell Snares.
As much as I don't like Spell snares in this deck (because most of the times you want to use the mana on turn 1-2 to cast creatures), I don't feel very confident cutting 3 counters.
They usually make the difference in counter wars against control decks, along with the Spell Pierce from the SB.

Fire/Ice is much more synergic with the deck, though. First, you can cast it when it is at its best, unlike Spell Snare. Then it reinforces the global strategy of the deck.
But I am afraid that it makes us even more rely on one plan to win the game.

Even if Spell snare isn't perfect for the deck, it's very good in the current metagame and it is awesome with Submerge.
What if your Ice on their Tarmogoyf is not enough to win the game?

Or maybe you could play both, cutting only 1 Spell Snare and 1 Clique and replacing one Bolt with one F/I for a 3/3/3 split:

MD : 4 flooded strand
4 wooded foothills
2 fetch U/R
2 Tropical island
2 Volcanic island
1 Savannah
1 Taïga
1 Tundra
1 Plateau


3 Force of will
4 MMS
4 daze
2 spell snare
4 brainstorm
1 ponder

3 lightning bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Fire/Ice

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 grim lavamancer


SB : 1 Force of will
3 reb
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of proge
1 ravenous trap
4 Submerge
3 Spell Pierce
1 Mind Harness



The problem of cutting entirely the Spell Snares from MD is that you have to play that 4th FoW MD which I really don't like because in my experience you often lose when you cast 2 FoWs with that deck, especially in the early game (and this deck really plays for the early game).

[Hanni]

What's funny is that way you say is pretty much what I was saying a few pages ago: Clique is bad, irrelevant at best; Holding U open for Spell Snare is hard; F/I could be a good inclusion.


Clique was very good as a singleton finisher when I first playtested with the deck. I barely ever saw him, and when I did, the 3/1 flyer won me several games.

Then I cut 3 Spell Snare for 3 Fire/Ice to try it out. After playtesting with that configuration, I found Fire/Ice helping me push additional damage through early on. When I was seeing Clique during this series of playtesting, it was just too slow, and I was wishing I had more burn or another Fire/Ice instead. So I cut the singleton Clique for another Fire/Ice.

If I were to go back to Spell Snare, I'd probably go back to running a singleton Clique.

The thing that needs to be kept in mind about the counter count, is that this deck doesn't need to run as much control as a deck like Canadian Thresh, because it's far more aggressive in the red zone. The problem with Spell Snare is that alot of times, the 2cc spells you want it to counter have already been cast by the time you either draw it or are able to hold U open to cast it.

Spell Snare is still pretty good in this deck though, and in a metagame with less midrange aggro/control, I'd considering going back to runing it over Fire/Ice. However, midrange aggro/control is this decks toughest matchup, and Fire/Ice improves that matchup dramatically, so Fire/Ice is a keeper for me.


What if your Ice on their Tarmogoyf is not enough to win the game?


Then you wait to draw another one, a Goyf of your own, or try and burn the opponent out. You have options.


Or maybe you could play both, cutting only 1 Spell Snare and 1 Clique and replacing one Bolt with one F/I for a 3/3/3 split:


I'd cut a Chain Lightning before I'd ever consider cutting a Lightning Bolt.

[troopatroop]

What's funny is that way you say is pretty much what I was saying a few pages ago: Clique is bad, irrelevant at best; Holding U open for Spell Snare is hard; F/I could be a good inclusion.

As for Clique I think there is no discussion to have.

I really thank you for your work/energy on the deck. Your thoughts are appreciated! :D

I don't think Clique should be discounted so soon. This deck digs a 3cc card sometimes, as it stretches your action. Evasion is pretty key here, and I've given thought to running as many as 3 Clique. Yes, the deck can go fast and not require a 3cc Flyer. The deck can also run out of cards if you draw weak, and Clique can win games. I'm not saying he's auto-include, but to not get uber committed to him gone.



I'd like to talk about Spell Snares.
As much as I don't like Spell snares in this deck (because most of the times you want to use the mana on turn 1-2 to cast creatures), I don't feel very confident cutting 3 counters.
They usually make the difference in counter wars against control decks, along with the Spell Pierce from the SB.

I completely agree. Hymn is scary to me. Stoneforge Mystic is annoying. If I'm on the draw in a tournament, and I choose to hold mana open for their turn 2, it's a pretty safe bet they're going to do something relevant at 2cc. Sometimes, you don't have Kird/Nacatl, so it's natural. Grim Lavamancer is fine turn 2, as he's not an attacker. There are advantages to running Spell Snare, and any casting of it will be inherantly powerful.

I also see where Hanni is coming from. This deck wants to curve out, and your success is hit or miss. Slots are getting tighter, and the deck might not need the "U" counter. Spell Pierce also looks sexy to me.



Fire/Ice is much more synergic with the deck, though. First, you can cast it when it is at its best, unlike Spell Snare. Then it reinforces the global strategy of the deck.
But I am afraid that it makes us even more rely on one plan to win the game.

Hanni said it already. We have 1 plan to win the game, in damage. Can't shy away from that, I'm afraid.



Even if Spell snare isn't perfect for the deck, it's very good in the current metagame and it is awesome with Submerge.
What if your Ice on their Tarmogoyf is not enough to win the game?

Or maybe you could play both, cutting only 1 Spell Snare and 1 Clique and replacing one Bolt with one F/I for a 3/3/3 split:

The problem of cutting entirely the Spell Snares from MD is that you have to play that 4th FoW MD which I really don't like because in my experience you often lose when you cast 2 FoWs with that deck, especially in the early game (and this deck really plays for the early game).

Lightning Bolt > Chain Lightning. Random Ponder is Random, imo.

Cutting Snare doesn't mean you have to play FoW 4! Consider this build.

4 Nacatl
4 Ape
3 Lavamancer
4 Goyf
2 Clique

3 FoW
4 Daze
4 MM
4 Brainstorm
3 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

18 Land, 20 Blue Cards, 10 Burn + Lavamancer, 14 DH's. Seems strong.

There's a lot of customability in this deck. Steppe Lynx has it's merits, and Ruhan is a boss. I feel comfortable making Clique more apart of my plan, although I could see 2x Ponder in that slot as well. I like Kird Ape for now. The manabase isn't as stretched for Wild Nacatl with Kird Ape, and running 2 Taiga makes my opening draws much more consistant. Steppe Lynx does nothing of the sort, and adds pressure to the shaky mana.

You have to ask yourself, is this Tundra really better than Taiga #2? It doesn't cast nearly as many cards in the deck, and only for Wild Nacatl? Even the Savannah is becoming hard for me to justify, and that at least casts 8 cards. I guess if you're playing Spell Snare, Ice, and Clique it's better, but still! I still feel like we've yet to find the "holy grail" manabase for this, down to the fetches to start.

Thoughts on 19 Land? I've gotten many 1 land hands with 18 :-/ Shuffle better, is probably it.

[Hanni]

I was thinking about this, and I'm wondering just how good a SFM + Jitte SB would be against midrange aggro. If they have an aggressive mana denial plan, it may be too sketchy, but I can see the extra bodies + equipment being really good. The Price of Progress plan just simply did not pan out, and I'm already cutting 3 Chain Lightning for 3 Submerge as is vs midrange aggro.

Something like:

-2 Lightning Bolt
-1 Force of Will
+2 Stoneforge Mystic
+1 Umezawa's Jitte

What do you guys think?

Even without SFM, I'm still liking the prospect of Jitte. Creatures are expendable in here, so establishing Jitte counters shouldn't be too bad. We're a little threat light, but we should have enough protection to get a Jitte active. Kird Ape with a Jitte grows to 6/7, which outsizes opposing Goyfs and Tombstalker's, and depending on the gamestate, possibly even Knight of the Reliquary's. Jitte on a 4/5 Goyf is pretty sick, too.

Without SFM, something like:

-1 Lightning Bolt
-1 Force of Will
+2 Umezawa's Jitte

With Fire/Ice and Submerge helping get Jitte active without losing a creature, this seems like a really attractive plan.

[Sea R Hill]

What I believe is that you guys don't play the deck the same way I do.
I play the deck like a tempo deck, winning through early aggression backed-up with cheap countermagic and burn.
In my deck, the way I play it, I have no room for slow and clunky strategies. Jitte is good, yes, as is SFM, but it is way too slow for my plan.

Concerning all the last points that we are talking about:

If I'm on the draw in a tournament, and I choose to hold mana open for their turn 2, it's a pretty safe bet they're going to do something relevant at 2cc.
Well, I think this is a huge mistake. Don't take it wrong, but it seems it's like you have never played the deck.
Our plan is to win the early game, so I'd never keep that Grim in hand just to hold U open. What if you opponent doesn't cast a 2CC spell? That is why we were saying with Hanni that we can't cast Spell Snare when it's at its best (on turn 1/2), just because we can't hold our creatures in hand just to be able to cast Spell Snare in case of they have a 2cc relevant spell with no MMS/Daze back-up, or with double back-up if we have one MMS as well. See, that is a lot of conditions to fill, that's why holding U for Spell Snare is bad in the early game: it's EV-. I would not take a risk and prefer to follow my plan casting that 1CC creature because THAT is indeed the less risky plan.


Lightning Bolt > Chain Lightning.
Completely agree. My bad.


Random Ponder is Random, imo.
Random Ponder is not random, it is the 5th cantrip this deck needs.
While I think more than 6 cantrips is too much for this deck (as we want to use our mana to play creatures in the early game, not cantripping into more cantrips like Tempo Thresh), there is a huge difference between 4 and 5 cantrips. I haven't mathematically calculated the odds, but that 5th cantrip seems to improve them significantly.


Steppe Lynx has it's merits, and Ruhan is a boss.
Steppe Lynx sucks hard. You don't play Zoo, you play a tempo deck with only 18 lands that only needs 2 lands to cast all of its spells and win (according we don't play Clique anymore).
As for Ruhan, it still does nothing and is too mana intensive.



You have to ask yourself, is this Tundra really better than Taiga #2?
Without a doubt. Fact is, Tundra is the less usefull dual and I might drop it, but not for a 2d Taïga. Taïga #1 rocks, Taïga #2 is a pain in the ass. I really really want to have blue mana on my side of the table.


The Price of Progress plan just simply did not pan out, and I'm already cutting 3 Chain Lightning for 3 Submerge as is vs midrange aggro.

PoP is either overkill or countered. Plus it hurts us a lot as well.

I was cutting Chain Lightnings at first too, but it turned out that in the games I wanted Submerge, I also wanted Burn spells to finish off my opponent.

As for SFM and Jitte, I think these cards don't fit very well with the deck and its strategy (Jitte may be playable, but SFM is way too slow). Why trying to copy the strategy of opposing decks? They'll get their Jitte faster than you anyway, because their deck is built to use and abuse SFM. It's not with 2 SFM and 1 Jitte in the SB that you are gonna win this battle.

[Hanni]

@ Sea R Hill

This deck plays in auto-pilot mode against 90% of its matchups, so I am sure we play the deck the same. I'm very aggressive when I play this deck, trading card advantage for damage as needed.

The midrange aggro matchup, more specifcally midrange aggro/control, falls into the other 10%. It is this decks worst matchup, and I will continue to look for ways to remedy it.

The problem with going hyper aggressive against midrange is that it doesn't work unless you have a nut draw. They either run their own countermagic or discard to counteract ours, and their removal removes our threats while ours doesn't remove theirs. They are able to severly reduce our damage capabilities early, and we cannot race them in the midgame with just burn.

Fire/Ice and Submerge go a long way towards helping push our little guys through. The games are still too close for comfort though. However, I usually find myself sitting on a Kird Ape or Nacatl in the midgame that I cannot do anything with against their bigger guys. If I were to topdeck Jitte at this point, it would instantly turn the game around.

The point isn't to abuse SFM the way midrange does; its to give me a better midrange fighting chance against opposing midrange. If I can't do enough damage early, which has been the problem, then I lose in the midgame; my 3 damage burn spells cannot race their 5+ damage a turn from a Knight of the Reliquary.

When drawing inspiration for ways to beat certain matchups, sometimes its a good idea to look at how either Tempo Thresh, Zoo, or both, deal with those matchups. As far as answers to midrange is concerned, we have two options that Zoo uses: Sylvan Library and Umezawa's Jitte. I plan to test both.

I'll post a sample Junk list when I get off of work to give you an idea of what I am talking about in regards to the midrange matchup. I will also explain the intracies of this matchup in more detail, based on my experiences with these sorts of matches thus far.

EDIT:

The only concievable way I can think of to be successful playing hyper agressive against midrange aggro would be to cut the Force of Will's for Fireblast's postboard, which is another option I might like to playtest with.

To be honest though, the way the deck is built now (maindeck), is for sustainability. If pure 100% early game aggression is your playstyle, you might consider cutting Goyfs and Lavamancers for Steppe Lynx and Goblin Guide, and cut Force of Wills for Fireblasts. As the deck is right now, with Lavamancer and Goyf, the deck cannot always pound out a turn 4 goldfish. A consistent turn 4 goldfish is the only way you are consistently getting into burn-out-range against midrange aggro. The only way to do that is with faster aggro + more burn density.

[whiley85]

I never had the feeling that lynx is sucking. It deals dmg like kird never will be able to and we know that every dmg point counts. Multiple lynx drawn later on can easily be shuffled away since you play at least 12 fetchlands in the lynx build from the beginning of this thread. I see more pros than cons and will stick to that version until I make bad experience which you probably made, but then please tell me...
The longer a match goes the more I wish some more brainstorm effects, no cantrips like ponder but real brainstorms. I remember only one card that fits to that requirement, maybe it can be a plan for midrange aggro, even if it costs 4?

[Sea R Hill]

The problem with going hyper aggressive against midrange is that it doesn't work unless you have a nut draw. They either run their own countermagic or discard to counteract ours, and their removal removes our threats while ours doesn't remove theirs. They are able to severly reduce our damage capabilities early, and we cannot race them in the midgame with just burn.

Fire/Ice and Submerge go a long way towards helping push our little guys through. The games are still too close for comfort though. However, I usually find myself sitting on a Kird Ape or Nacatl in the midgame that I cannot do anything with against their bigger guys. If I were to topdeck Jitte at this point, it would instantly turn the game around.


I don't have the same problems as you seem to have against midrange aggro decks.
If you use Jitte to win these MUs I'm afraid that you will end up with one Jitte with two counters and zero creature to carry it again. Even equipping one creature with the Jitte seems to be hard, as we don't have that much creatures in the deck and they are easily answered by all removals and cheap countermagis as you rightfully said.

I think our best shot is to win through tempo with Ice, Submerge and Harness.
I don't mind siding out FoWs in this MUs if I can Submerge away their big guy for an additionnal strike that is likely to make us win the game. Ice helps a lot here too, as you have said.



When drawing inspiration for ways to beat certain matchups, sometimes its a good idea to look at how either Tempo Thresh, Zoo, or both, deal with those matchups. As far as answers to midrange is concerned, we have two options that Zoo uses: Sylvan Library and Umezawa's Jitte. I plan to test both.

Our deck is much more closer to TT than Zoo. And Tempo Thresh never ran Jitte nor Sylvan Library. It ran a full playset of Submerge, which are even more powerfull in this deck than they were in TT.

[lalauwba]

I think the best way to deal with mid range decks (besides submerge) is with card advantage. i would try mind harness, threads of desloyalt and sower of tempation!! They are all 2 for 1 cards and they remove blockers to ours guys!!

What do yall think!?

[troopatroop]

Steppe Lynx and Loam Lion work well with Wasteland, and we get STP + Ice to combat midrange. This is what I would do without Lavamancer... and it's a SAUCEY 2 PLATEAU white build.

2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Plateau

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Scalding Tarn

4 Wasteland

4 Steppe Lynx
3 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
3 Fire/Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ponder


I might just play that. Steppe Lynx is silly with Daze + Wasteland. Loam Lion is Kird Ape as well, so we can have enough 1drops. Granted, you miss out on Grim Lavamancer + Burn for the Merfolk matchup, but your goldfish rises by half a turn against Combo. I really don't feel that we've looked at Wasteland enough. It takes up valuable slots in the deck, but it's synergy with Steppe Lynx is huge, and it fits with the tempo plan.

Also, in brainstorming towards this build, I gave alot of thought to Weathered Wayfarer. NOGoyf always should've had Goyfs in it, and it could easily be the 3x Loam Lion in a build above. I suppose Steppe Lynx is anti-synergistic, but only kindof! Infinite Wastelands is underrated imo.

Peace

[lalauwba]

This list is not Blue zoo!! I would prefer to play TTw instead of that.

I dont understand why u need to make a combo matchup even better!! The matchup is good right now!! u need to concern about midrange adecks.

I really like the wastelands, but in a 4 color deck its hard to play it, unless u go up to 22 lands!!

I tried to put this deck in 3 colors (RUG) and play some wasteland, but it misses good 1drops!! =/

[troopatroop]

This list is not Blue zoo!! I would prefer to play TTw instead of that.

I dont understand why u need to make a combo matchup even better!! The matchup is good right now!! u need to concern about midrange adecks.

I really like the wastelands, but in a 4 color deck its hard to play it, unless u go up to 22 lands!!

I tried to put this deck in 3 colors (RUG) and play some wasteland, but it misses good 1drops!! =/

This is a post that makes 0 sense.

First and foremost, that build is a THREE color build. You can't play 4 colors and Wasteland, which would be adding Grim Lavamancer to that build, so I'm trying 3. The build that was posted before, is a RUG build! To the T, 3 colors, Red Blue and Green. You could play Wasteland there in 3 colors, with Wild Nacatl/Kird Ape/ and Grim Lavamancer as 1 drops. What are you talking about here? Blue Zoo is an unknown deck which has no definite "best" build, because it's just being developed. To be frank, who are you to decide that that list isn't Blue Zoo? Tempo Thresh with white? What are you even talking about? Do you have a list to suggest, or card changes, or any amount of content to post? Otherwise, consider not posting at all. Steppe Lynx over Grim Lavamancer is a change I'm experimenting with, for speed alone. Speed is not only good against Combo..

Previous iterations of the deck played 23 to 22 to (finally) 21 lands with Wasteland. I think that's going to be the correct number.

Just because a deck plays 1 Plateau and Savannah, does not mean that it plays "white". People are so dense.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm really curious about what you think of Meddling Mage in the white setup troopatroop

[Mr. Safety]

This list is not Blue zoo!! I would prefer to play TTw instead of that.

I dont understand why u need to make a combo matchup even better!! The matchup is good right now!! u need to concern about midrange adecks.

I really like the wastelands, but in a 4 color deck its hard to play it, unless u go up to 22 lands!!

I tried to put this deck in 3 colors (RUG) and play some wasteland, but it misses good 1drops!! =/

Wtf? Playing Grim Lavamancer, Wild Nacatl, and Kird Ape are not good 1-drops?

[troopatroop]

I'm really curious about what you think of Meddling Mage in the white setup troopatroop

I like Loam Lion more. Tarmogoyf is the only creature I'm willing to play at 2cc maindeck. Pridemage would be better.

I can't see MM in the mainboard of any legacy deck now. Too much Zoo and Merfolk to be generally effective, imo.


This deck is very 1cc oriented, especially with Wasteland. The 11 1drops in that white build are on purpose! :)

[lalauwba]

I am saying in a 3 color build without plains!

Legacy is a wasteland format, keeping a 2 land hand against a waste.deck means that mostly part of the time your ape is gonna be 1/1, your nacatl 1/1 or u will have no island in play!!!

[lalauwba]

Steppe Lynx sux in this field!! Lavamancer is much better!!

U dont need speed, u need consistency to hit every turn.

I won a legacy qualifier with 45 people (Brazil) for the Legacy nationals with this list:

4 ape
4 nacatl
4 goyf
3 mancer

2 fire/ice
2 chain
4 bolt

4 BS
4 FoW
3 spell snare
4 daze
4 MMs

4 saclading tarn
4 wooded
2 misty rainforest
2 taiga
2 volcanic
2 tropical
1 plateau
1 savannah

SB:
2 anciente grudge
1 sower of tempation
1 mind harness
4 submerge
4 pyroblats
2 divert
1 trygon predator

i lost against GW maverick cause of wastelands!!! Thats why i was trying to make a 3 color (no plains) build!!

Now i am playing with 4 fire/ice and 0 chain!!

[Draener]

Have you considered playing Phantasmal Bear? Lacks the extra toughness, but maybe all you need is a couple more 2 power 1's that cost on color mana?

[Mr. Safety]

Wow, Phantasmal Bear is really lousy. I just looked it up.

Here are better options:

Jungle Lion
Goblin Guide
Savannah Lions
Elite Vanguard
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Tattermunge Maniac
Figure of Destiny
Skyshroud Elite (although your own wastelands make this rather bad...)

[troopatroop]

I am saying in a 3 color build without plains!

Legacy is a wasteland format, keeping a 2 land hand against a waste.deck means that mostly part of the time your ape is gonna be 1/1, your nacatl 1/1 or u will have no island in play!!!

Variance! Oh how some people miss the boat.

This situation makes Lands really great to draw when they'd normally be bad. This deck functions off of 1 land as well as any deck in Legacy. Playing Wastelands of your own means that both of you will be devastated, and I like having 5 cantrips to bail me out.

Keeping a 2 land hand on the play and getting Wasted usually means you'll have 2-4 draw steps to find another land before you lose serious tempo. That's a pretty good chance of drawing through it, especially if you have some draw. Being afraid of Wasteland is good, but fetching correctly + cantriping is all you can do. It's the best card in Legacy, but having the f34r won't help you.

I still really love the red build, just experimenting with the white.

[Draener]

Wow, Phantasmal Bear is really lousy. I just looked it up.

Here are better options:

Jungle Lion
Goblin Guide
Savannah Lions
Elite Vanguard
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Tattermunge Maniac
Figure of Destiny
Skyshroud Elite (although your own wastelands make this rather bad...)


Of all those, I actually only think Goblin guide is better. Costing white is a real drawback to this deck, as is always having to attack. Goblin guide does seem worth considering, however.

[troopatroop]

Of all those, I actually only think Goblin guide is better. Costing white is a real drawback to this deck, as is always having to attack. Goblin guide does seem worth considering, however.

I agree with you, Guide is the only "better" creature. Pitching to FoW is serious business.

[Hanni]

I don't have the same problems as you seem to have against midrange aggro decks.
If you use Jitte to win these MUs I'm afraid that you will end up with one Jitte with two counters and zero creature to carry it again. Even equipping one creature with the Jitte seems to be hard, as we don't have that much creatures in the deck and they are easily answered by all removals and cheap countermagis as you rightfully said.

I think our best shot is to win through tempo with Ice, Submerge and Harness.
I don't mind siding out FoWs in this MUs if I can Submerge away their big guy for an additionnal strike that is likely to make us win the game. Ice helps a lot here too, as you have said.


You may very well be right about not having enough bodies to equip to Jitte, but that's why I was considering bringing in SFM (more bodies). Even if Jitte does prove to be a bad strategy, I won't know until I playtest with it. Either way, I do not see how you are not having issues with midrange aggro/control. Junk, Jund, Bant, NO RUG, etc are all extremely difficult matchups. While we may have a fantastic game against combo decks and control decks, midrange is an issue. It's not an unbeatable matchup; no matchups for this deck are unbeatable. It is, however, a very difficult matchup that requires perfect play to go roughly 50/50 with, and those midrange aggro/control decks are in the DTB right now.

However, Mind Harness is something I think I'm going to test before I test Umezawa's Jitte. The ability to steal a fat Knight of the Reliquary or Tarmogoyf for a turn or two is probably all the deck needs postboard to win those matchups. If that does in fact solve my problems, then I'd say we have a Tier 1 deck on our hands.

@ the White builds w/ Wasteland

Not a fan. If I was going to play an aggressive creature like Steppe Lynx, I'd also be running Goblin Guide and Fireblast. However, I think a hyper aggressive list like that could be really, really good. Taking the list I posted previously, except:

-4 Tarmogoyf
-4 Force of Will
+4 Steppe Lynx
+4 Fireblast

...and I'd probably cut 4 Fire/Ice for 1 Chain Lightning and 3 Rift Bolt.

[Final Fortune]

Wow, Phantasmal Bear is really lousy. I just looked it up.

Here are better options:

Jungle Lion
Goblin Guide
Savannah Lions
Elite Vanguard
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Tattermunge Maniac
Figure of Destiny
Skyshroud Elite (although your own wastelands make this rather bad...)


Phantasmal Bear is the most underrated card in M12, it's more or less an unconditional 2/2 in your primary color and none of those cards are remotely comparable to the manabase stability and blue count it provides.

It's a sound choice and lets you be extremely selective in searching for /r Dual Lands vs. Wasteland.dec.

[Hanni]

I actually really like Phantasmal Bear. I didn't realize that card existed till you just mentioned it. If our creature is getting targetted in the first place, it almost always means its dead. U for a 2/2 ups the blue count and gives us an unconditional 2/2 at the same time... I may actually consider cutting Kird Ape for this guy. Kird Ape being a 2/3 is pretty nice, and red is actually my primary color, but... I can totally see the justification for running Phantasmal Bear.

[lalauwba]

i will test the Phantasmal Bear. Thank u for the advice.. i didnt know that card too!! =D

The problem is that the 2 body trades with silvergil adept (and every merfolk).

I will cut the nacatl, move to 3 colors (RUG no plains) and try to play 19 or 20 lands with 4x wastelands!!

[ajfennewald]

You may very well be right about not having enough bodies to equip to Jitte, but that's why I was considering bringing in SFM (more bodies). Even if Jitte does prove to be a bad strategy, I won't know until I playtest with it. Either way, I do not see how you are not having issues with midrange aggro/control. Junk, Jund, Bant, NO RUG, etc are all extremely difficult matchups. While we may have a fantastic game against combo decks and control decks, midrange is an issue. It's not an unbeatable matchup; no matchups for this deck are unbeatable. It is, however, a very difficult matchup that requires perfect play to go roughly 50/50 with, and those midrange aggro/control decks are in the DTB right now.

However, Mind Harness is something I think I'm going to test before I test Umezawa's Jitte. The ability to steal a fat Knight of the Reliquary or Tarmogoyf for a turn or two is probably all the deck needs postboard to win those matchups. If that does in fact solve my problems, then I'd say we have a Tier 1 deck on our hands.

@ the White builds w/ Wasteland

Not a fan. If I was going to play an aggressive creature like Steppe Lynx, I'd also be running Goblin Guide and Fireblast. However, I think a hyper aggressive list like that could be really, really good. Taking the list I posted previously, except:

-4 Tarmogoyf
-4 Force of Will
+4 Steppe Lynx
+4 Fireblast

...and I'd probably cut 4 Fire/Ice for 1 Chain Lightning and 3 Rift Bolt.

I do struggle with the mid range decks but i am prob in the 40-45% range vs them. The only match up so far that seems abysmal is the various landstill variants. I am like 0-6 in matches and 3-12 in games. Not sure if i just play badly or if i am sideboarding badly but so far for me that matchup has been unwinable. About half those games where with the snare clique version and half with the fire//ice version.

[Hanni]

The Landstill matchup is dependant on their build. Normally for me, that's a pretty good matchup. Their clock is horrible, and we can usually push through some good damage early. After that, we have plenty of time to squeeze through those last points of damage with the burn spells. I definitely think that the increased burn density with Fire/Ice will help alot here. If you continue having problems, consider bringing in either Spell Pierce's, more burn, or both.

[troopatroop]

I'm also not afraid of Wasteland. We're as good as any deck can be against Standstill with 11 1drops. Wasteland build will have a better Landstill matchup, just for the ability to hit Mishra's Factory or duals when they draw basics. I've done more tweaking with the Steppe Lynx build, and I've since cut Force of Will. Controversial? Absolutely, but I won't be 2for1ing myself anymore. The card was always in question, and the deck might not need it in the current environment. This is my first attempt, a green-less build with Plated Geopede. Hate all you want, but the ONLY 2cc cards are Geopede and Fire/Ice. The curve is Saucey, and I'm suprised more people didn't look at Daze + Steppe Lynx/Geo.

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Plated Geopede

4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

3 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

4 Wasteland
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Plateau

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa

This is like, the new Team America :D 22 Lands like a baller. I would like to fit Fireblast in there, possibly over Fire/Ice? Someone help me

Edit: On second look +1 Plateau -1 Arid Mesa. 6 Targets is probably fine, but 7 is much safer.

[Hanni]

The Steppe Lynx build should definitely be cutting Force of Will... but it shouldn't be running Plated Geopede either. You want to be as aggressive as possible during the beginning, and you want to switch to a burn role as soon as that plan fails.

R/U/w/g Blue Sligh

Lands (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah

Creatures (15)
4 Goblin Guide
3 Kird Ape
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast

I haven't done any fine-tuning to the manabase, as this is just a rough list. Also, Phantasmal Bear could possibly replace the Kird Ape's.

The idea here is simply to protect your creature threats early (turns 1 and 2) to maximize early damage output, and then go for the throat once the aggro plan fails. If the opponent does land a fat Tarmogoyf, you just proceed to burn him out.

[troopatroop]

I really like it for the most part, as it's really focused. The manabase seems... perfect almost. What really turns me on to it is Goblin Guide. It's the only card that's onpar with Lynx and Nacatl as far as speed is concerned. Daze is still a very potent counterspell in this strategy, and I like the 15 burn spells.

I was going to say, I want to see Grim Lavamancer. Then I thought on it, realized you have crazy amounts of burn, and saw Kird Ape to round out the crew. He's better than Lavamancer in a build like that. Rift Bolt and Fireblast is Ballsy, I bet Storm wouldn't like that shit. It's almost impossible to not curve out with that build. Or, it is impossible, with everything at 1cc.

Note that you have 18 lands with Steppe Lynx. Brainstorm helps I suppose. Thumbs up!

[ajfennewald]

Caleb Durwood just became co champion of the SCG open with this very different take on blue zoo.

Maindeck:

Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Basic Lands
1 Forest

Lands
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Tower of the Magistrate

[troopatroop]

Wow, this is just the beginning. Noble Hierarch makes it Big Blue Zoo, imo :D I personally love it. I never thought of using Noble Hierarch for turn 3 Jace! How spicey, I absolutely love that build of it. Not as fast, but FoWless with Zenith! No Dazes! Stp/Bolt/Grim like Big Zoo + Jace.

I'd love to interview him on the deck, or hear someone else do it. He's a major name at SCG, and his input here would be greatly appreciated!

Basically, the only cards he's taking in Blue are Brainstorm and Jace. Mental Misstep really doesn't count. Here I was playing Daze and FoW! :P

[kiblast]

Caleb Durwood

Durward.

And btw, Tower of the Magistrate starts showing out in sideboards.

[Catitas]

caleb payed a list similar to mine although my list was before mental misstep

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5858&iddeck=42456

jace + brainstorm > sylvan library

jace works out has card advantage and removal i recall only using it for that purpose, i think theres a possibly, a little space in main to pack 2 vendilion cliques specially if your running karakas, the hierarchs fix your blue mana needs

has for his side options i really dont like the tower i'd rather have a 3rd grudge...

[catmint]

I was also stunned to see caleb's take on blue zoo.
With KotR and Jace his plan is clearly to have a stronger mid game and he did not expect a lot of combo.

Concerning Steppe lynx. I think the synergy is better with Sea Drake than with Daze.

[whiley85]

I mentioned the synergy with sea drake and lynx a few pages before. It didn't work...
On turn 3 you don't want such a drawback, on turn 4 he's too slow and I didn't feel that drake was needed once for lynx. Daze was already enough.
I can imagine to cut lynx down to 3 like mancer, cause you want it in your starthand otherwise you want to shuffle it away...

[troopatroop]

I really like his build of the deck. I feel like this is an archetype that can be further explored, but he showed that Nacatl works great in a controllish build with Jace. In the games during top 8, Wild Nacatl alone was enough pressure to win games. Rather than making burn his backup plan, and aiming for a fast goldfish, he opted for the (brilliant) package of 4 Hierarch, 3 GSZ, 3 KoTr, and 3 Jace.

Zenith and Hierarch both serve to accellerate Jace, much like No-RuG accelerates Natural Order. It just seemed like Jace with any amount of creature pressure was so much to handle, and an even safer/faster plan than 2 turns of Progenitus. It's a really terrific list, and I'm happy that Tropical -> Nacatl is getting exposure. Now that people know/expect this deck, I'm going to keep testing Daze over Jace/Hierarch.

Caleb! I somewhat remember you chiming in on the U/G Survival-Vine thread. Care to share some insight?

[Jak]

Caleb! I somewhat remember you chiming in on the U/G Survival-Vine thread. Care to share some insight?

FYI, he was actually the one to make that deck and Vengevine popular in Legacy.

Anyway, I love his list and thought it was brilliant. One of the most interesting decks I have seen. I'd love to hear his insight.

[ajfennewald]

he wrote about the deck in an article like two weeks ago. Changed a bit since then but mostly what he played.

[ScatmanX]

I definitively think that he considered, but I'm wondering if Elspeth could be better than Jace in this agroo build. 7/7 flying Nacatls on turn 3 seems better than landing Jace.
Just want to see if this can generate some discussion.

Oh, and congratz to Caleb for the result!

[catmint]

I think the list is a genius metagame decision. Aggro/Midrange with Jace is just very good versus Stoneforge, Merfolk and other popular decks with a huge surprise factor. The opponents did just not know what to do....

Since the list totally folds to combo it is not like something that can be a Tier1 deck in a changing metagame.

The list this thread discussed so far was a threshhold like tempo deck and as many people posted they had a lot of problems with stoneforge and KotR.

[ajfennewald]

Since the list totally folds to combo it is not like something that can be a Tier1 deck in a changing metagame.


Regular zoo totally fold s to most combo too ( excepting creature based combo) and it is still often a tier 1 deck

[troopatroop]

Regular zoo totally fold s to most combo too ( excepting creature based combo) and it is still often a tier 1 deck

Truth. This deck doesn't NEED to fold to combo, however. If I expected to go into a more combocentric environment, I would play a faster build with Force and Daze. Spell Pierce is a great SB card for combo, and Blue can greatly improve these matchups, but only if you desire to do so. Seems fine.

I am really sold on his build. It's ridiculously consistant, and draws alot of cards. Turn 3 Jace is very devastating, because if the opponent can't attack through your creatures at that point (Nacatl/Goyf), they're in really deep shit. Brainstorming each turn is awesome, and it makes it really hard to lose. Whether or not Jace has been better than Elspeth on every occasion is uncertain, as Elspeth can win a game faster than Jace, but Jace is consistantly awesome for me.

Casting a Planeswalker a turn early is really valuable, because you get another activation out of it (derpderp). Jace even circumvents the card disadvantage you're taking for playing Noble Hierarch in the first place by Brainstorming for free, so you lose nothing for playing the acceleration. This is beautiful, because it actually pays to get ahead early, putting you in a great position to win the game with more cards even if they answer your stuff. To top it all off, many decks just lose to the Jace right there! So it's a really powerful line, often started with a Wild Nacatl or Tarmogoyf to defend it, coupled with A+ removal spells and Brainstorm. There's really no reason this build of the deck shouldn't be Tier 1-1.5 status, imo.

You could also play Daze if you expected combo, but he didn't feel he needed it. GSZ for Teeg and Spell Pierce SB is what I'm thinking.

[deviant]

You can also just play cards like meddling mage and vendilion clique.

[kiblast]

GSZ for Teeg and Spell Pierce SB is what I'm thinking.

Exactly what I'm testing in my sb. 1 Teeg and 3 Spell Pierce. Also note that the couple of Mindcensor Caleb used in SB are effective not only against fetchlands, but also against Infernal Tutor. And since this deck can easily develop 3 mana on turn 2, they are pretty good.

[kiblast]

GSZ for Teeg and Spell Pierce SB is what I'm thinking.

Exactly what I'm testing in my sb. 1 Teeg and 3 Spell Pierce. Also note that the couple of Mindcensor Caleb used in SB are effective not only against fetchlands, but also against Infernal Tutor. And since this deck can easily develop 3 mana on turn 2, they are pretty good and not slow like in any other deck you could play them.

[luudes]

Burning tree shaman.
I have been testing it out in the sideboard as a GSZ target and it has been AWESOME so far. If it sticks against landstill/ factory decks then you can burn them out. It also laughs at top, port, stoneforge, equipment. In a deck that can shift into aggro mode quickly this guy can provide some real reach if the board is somewhat stalled (and a 3/4 for 3...)

[troopatroop]

I'm a Burning Tree Shaman, so I can dream of playing him. Truth is, he's a 3cc card that isn't KoTR. I like JTMS moar.

[Mr. Safety]

BTS can be tech in Zenith/Big NAYA zoo, especially the ones busting out Mystic + Equips, but not in this setup I don't think. Threats need to be better or faster. This is neither...it's a metagame choice that could potentially see sideboard slots or for a mid-range approach that doesn't have such a blue focus. That's my take on him anyways...

[troopatroop]

Zenith for BTS costs 4 mana. Then you start pinging them for 1. That's all too slow, I mean I can see turn 2 off a Hierarch being good, but then you COULD have a KoTR in play. 3/4 for 4 that can't attack through Goyf? No thanks. Jace is a 4 mana spell, think of it that way.

[luudes]

I did not think the BTS would have uses as widely applicable until I actually played with it. I have tested the most with it in NO RUG which is more controlling than this build. In that deck is was much better than I thought, even having a big effect in a matchup I didnt think it would be useful in (TPS) where it forced him to try to find pieces for an IGG loop (i.e. forcing the opponent to switch gameplans). So yeah 1 copy as a GSZ target is what I have tried and I will continue to test (people also laughed when I started using thrun but that one seems to be catching on once people actually test it). I do not see your comparison to JTMS at 4, apples and oranges as they say. Also in this build I think having some reach (i.e. not dependent on getting through damage on the ground) can be a bigger positive than just being bigger and faster. Versus some decks this will often not assume the beatdown/ aggresive role so just looking for bigger and faster is not always going to be right.

[Plm]

Hi guys, are you all on the big blue zoo wagon ?

I used the "classic" version of blue zoo to win a volcanic today.


The list I played is

2 taiga
2 volcanic
2 tropical
1 savanah
1 plateau
1 tundra
4 wooded foothills
4 scalding tarn
2 misty rain forest

4 wild nacatl
4 grim lavamancer
4 tarmogoyf
3 figure of destiny
1 scavenging ooze

4 lightning bolt
3 chain lighning
2 fire / ice

4 brainstorm
3 ponder

4 mental misstep
4 daze
2 force of will

side

2 tormods
1 relic of progenitus
2 force of will
1 spell pierce
1 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 basilik collar
2 price of progress
1 vexing shusher

I won against : merfolk, reanimator, both colors of lanstill. loose against UW landstill.

report here : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21541-I-like-my-Zoo-like-my-hair-BLUE.-2nd-with-blue-Zoo.

[troopatroop]

I played a build very similar to that one at Jupiter Games yesterday, and went 4-1 @ first, only to draw over 9000 lands in rounds 6-7. This is what I registered.

2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Savannah

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
2 Fire//Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning

SB
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt

In order, I beat BloodbraidVisions RUG 2-0 (he made top8), Merfolk 2-0, U/B ANT 2-0, and Burn 2-0. I lost to U/w Stoneforge-Still 0-2, W/B/u Stoneforge + Bob + Finkel 1-2 (top8), and scooped a U/W/g Stoneforge Control deck into the finals when we were 1-1, to put him into top8 (I had no shot). All the games I lost with 7 cards I got extremely land flooded, and Stoneforge for Batterskull just beat me. I was very happy with how the deck performed, or to be more specific, how certain cards performed. Th deck was dreamcrushing left and right, but there are some things that erked me.

Force of Will got sided out frequently, and we're talking almost every matchup. Daze and Mental Misstep completely outclassed Force of Will, and it was the worst card in my deck. I wanted to be prepared for Combo, and it won me my games against ANT like it should, but this was only one pairing where it was good. I'm beginning to question if Force of Will is what this deck really needs. Daze and Misstep were fantastic, however, and I'm fairly sold on them. The real question is if the deck can support this card. In the form that I played it in, with 4x and Kird Ape in the deck, I really don't think that it can. Kird Ape just doesn't clock like Wild Nacatl, and Forcing something important in the hopes that you'll attack the Stoneforge player down with Kird Ape is fairly stupid. The list above me plays 2 Force, and that intrigues me a bit, as I was thinking about going to 3x, but it doesn't escape from the fact that Force is card DA that this deck can't afford in the current environment. Granted, "environment" is relative, and Force is sick in a combo metagame, I just don't see that happening right now.

Vendilion Clique was shitty. I saw it twice, and in the game I pitched it to Force, I won! In the game that I played it in, it worked some magic, but I still lost brutally to a Batterskull. I don't think this is what the deck needs, because if we don't play Hierarch (which your build could), it's always gonna be a 3 power 3 drop, which is less than impressive for this deck.

Kird Ape was also, hit or miss. I liked when I had Wild Nacatl + Ape clocking for 5, and I won many games that way. However, Kird Ape on his own is really sad. He gets blocked by everything, only does his 2 damage, and it's a card investment. I took inventory of it, and in many games that I casted Kird Apes, it would've been just as easy for me to be casting Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull, which is a much stronger 1 card investment, and a safer plan than attacking with a 2/3. This tournament made me think alot about Steppe Lynx tbh, and how much faster he could make the deck. Even in the games I lost, I was able to put alot of pressure on early + deal massive damage. Lynx may have won these games in which Kird Ape fell short, even on weak "land heavy" draws, just by putting them deeper in the red sooner. I do not think I'll be playing with Kird Ape again. While I like what he does well, in rounding out the beats and adding more 1drops, but there's simply much more powerful things going on in Legacy atm to go back to the 1999 Monkey. Steppe Lynx + Daze + Wasteland may be the answer.

Wild Nacatl, Brainstorm, Lavamancer, and Daze were MVP on the day. Everyone walked right into my Dazes thinking I was playing Caleb Durward's deck. The manabase was solid, but I may drop back to 18 lands. I played 19 to just not get Land screwed, but getting flooded with that build of the deck is absolutely GG. You have nothing to curve into, no possible way to use that mana, so it's really worth avoiding if you can. This is something that really makes me appreciate the Big Zoo approach, because Jace is a 4cc card that you actively want lands for, but when you have him he can get RID of excess lands as well. Also, playing Knight of the Reliquary would've been very good, as he's the only guy that reliably deal with Batterskull, be it with his size or Maze of Ith.

I'm unsure where I want to take the deck from this point. Big Zoo seems more adept at dealing with the SFM problem, which is really an epidemic at this point, and this intrigues me about it. It's just so EZ to fetch Batterskull and completely void our plan of going for the throat. Calebs list plays Qasali Pridemage (which is the card I want), 3 GSZ to fetch them if need be, and 4 STP for big guys. I'd really like to see Daze in a list like his if it's possible, but idk if it's workable. Well that's all for now, long live Blue Zoo!

[from Cairo]

How were Tin Street Hooligans out of the board? I was advocating them in the DTB normal Zoo thread and didn't get much positive feedback. It strikes me as a very strong card right now with all the equipment floating around. Sure QPM w/ Exalted and all is a bomb too, but the fact that it's 3 mana to kill the artifact and you're not keeping a body on board is a pretty distinct difference from 2 mana and netting a 2/1.

[troopatroop]

I brought them in 4 times! They were really good. Against Merfolk I got two uses out of one, when he Submerged it! Aether Vial and Phyrexian Metamorph :P Won me a landflooded game 2, and the match. Ancient Grudge would've been better in the Stoneforge situations, but Tin Street was pretty golden on the day. I won a miraculous game 2 against W/B/u Stoneforge on the back of attacking with the creature. You have to favor the Grudges tho, because while Tin Street comes in for more matchups (Vial decks), Ancient Grudge is better against what hurts this deck the most (Stoneforge Mystic). I could see a split, but the real question is if this deck wants to dedicate 5 sideboard slots to artifact hate?

Idk...In other news, I've been working on something completely different. Helllooooo bandwagon!

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Daze
3 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

2 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest

1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Spell Pierce


Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull or Jitte is gamebreaking in so many matchups, and it's really shaking Legacy up atm. There's not much of a reason not to play it! It's such a strong, quick, cheap 1 card investment for such a strong plan. Having Daze protection is great with SFM.

In a deck with Noble Hierarch, Mental Misstep, Daze, and Wasteland, you have numerous ways of getting ahead early game. What this deck lacked was midgame presence, and I can't tell you how much more stable SFM makes the deck. No more overextending or playing weak 1drops. The deck becomes more defensive, but in turn doesn't have to run out weak guys like Kird Ape or Steppe Lynx. I've managed to fit in 4 Dazes in the list and I wouldn't want it any other way with that card. While I'm excluding Grim Lavamancer, SFM and Jitte make up for it against Merfolk and Midrange, so I think it's worth it. Elspeth over Jace because I like the evasion and pump with exalted creatures more than just brainstorming. In a deck with Daze and Tempo elements, I think the DPS+Evasion that Elspeth provides is even better assurance for this midrange plan, especially if we're giving them life. It's basically Big Zoo splash blue for soft counters and Brainstorm :) I'm really trying to beat up the Stoneforge mirror.

Take these examples of good lines of play.

Turn 1 Trop, Noble Hierarch. Turn 2 Wasteland, SFM for Batterskull /w Daze backup
Turn 1 Trop, Wild Nacatl. Turn 2 Qasali Pridemage, attack for 4 /w Daze backup

Turn 1 Savannah, GSZ for Dryad Arbor. Turn 2 Wasteland, SFM for Batterskull.
Turn 1 Savannah, Wild Nacatl. Turn 2 SFM for Batterskull, attack for 3.

These all seem like strong early game sequences for such a brutal Midrange deck. GSZ and Hierarch quicken Knight and Elspeth while also strengthening Wasteland and Daze. This is a very tempo oriented deck, and when I counted SFM out of that strategy, I made a grave mistake. I failed to acknowledge the raw power of the card being 2cc and enabling Batterskull, which is a swift threat in itself. It's also very safe, which is why I didn't want it in my "aggro" deck, but I've since seen the light. The card is too good not to play, and since I'm unwilling to put down my Wild Nacatls, perhaps Big Zoo is where I'm bound. I suppose it still wants to combo-dodge, but it's better than Caleb's list there. Thoughts?

[Admiral_Arzar]

I've come to question whether Force of Will is actually good enough in this deck. .



Yeah you sleep on that for a minute. Force of Will is the Tempo deck's wet dream. It's the reason we can dismantle combo strategies. Play Force.



Daze and Mental Misstep completely outclassed Force of Will, and it was the worst card in my deck. I'm beginning to question if Force of Will is what this deck really needs.

All irony aside, perhaps it is time to put FOW in the board for combo, and run something more efficient maindeck? I'm considering playing this deck again, but I really want to find a way to fix the issues that plagued me when I played it previously (getting blown out by Wasteland(s), threat-light draws with too much countermagic, no answers to KOTR/Tombstalker/Terravore/etc.). My meta is and always has been ridiculously Wasteland-happy, so basic lands are pretty much a must. I'm not sure how to include them without completely destroying the manabase, however. As for the big dudes issue, I'm really at a loss how to deal with that without making the white splash stronger and running STP/Path.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I've come to question whether Force of Will is actually good enough in this deck. .



Yeah you sleep on that for a minute. Force of Will is the Tempo deck's wet dream. It's the reason we can dismantle combo strategies. Play Force.



Daze and Mental Misstep completely outclassed Force of Will, and it was the worst card in my deck. I'm beginning to question if Force of Will is what this deck really needs.

All irony aside, perhaps it is time to put FOW in the board for combo, and run something more efficient maindeck? I'm considering playing this deck again, but I really want to find a way to fix the issues that plagued me when I played it previously (getting blown out by Wasteland(s), threat-light draws with too much countermagic, no answers to KOTR/Tombstalker/Terravore/etc.). My meta is and always has been ridiculously Wasteland-happy, so basic lands are pretty much a must. I'm not sure how to include them without completely destroying the manabase, however. As for the big dudes issue, I'm really at a loss how to deal with that without making the white splash stronger and running STP/Path.

[troopatroop]

All irony aside, perhaps it is time to put FOW in the board for combo, and run something more efficient maindeck? I'm considering playing this deck again, but I really want to find a way to fix the issues that plagued me when I played it previously (getting blown out by Wasteland(s), threat-light draws with too much countermagic, no answers to KOTR/Tombstalker/Terravore/etc.). My meta is and always has been ridiculously Wasteland-happy, so basic lands are pretty much a must. I'm not sure how to include them without completely destroying the manabase, however. As for the big dudes issue, I'm really at a loss how to deal with that without making the white splash stronger and running STP/Path.

I think you should go look up what Irony means. Changing your mind is like, different than that.

I overestimated the amount of Combo in the metagame, and underestimated how attrition based Legacy has become. Zoo/Maverick/Merfolk/Control make up a huge portion of the metagame by my eyes, and Force of Will is not the card you want in any of these matchups. With Mental Misstep keeping combo down naturally, we can get away with not playing Force of Will. I still say play 3x if you expect Storm, and I would've lost without them there, but the design constraints of Force are what I'm really glad to be rid of.

If you really want to protect yourself from Wasteland, play a Forest. That's litterally as far as this deck can go. This irrational fear of Wasteland is just so wrong tho. You're the Aggro deck, the beatdown in most matchups. If your opponent is using their lands to destroy yours, and you can draw some/have em in your grip/ have creatures on the board, you're winning the game! I battled through 2 Wastelands both games against Merfolk this weekend and won both times. If you're on the play, I'd contend that getting Wasted is something you actively want!

The point is, there's nothing you can do against Wasteland. Play Noble Hierarch and Wastelands of your own, and win with the free turn.

[Admiral_Arzar]

If you really want to protect yourself from Wasteland, play a Forest. That's litterally as far as this deck can go. This irrational fear of Wasteland is just so wrong tho. You're the Aggro deck, the beatdown in most matchups. If your opponent is using their lands to destroy yours, and you can draw some/have em in your grip/ have creatures on the board, you're winning the game! I battled through 2 Wastelands both games against Merfolk this weekend and won both times. If you're on the play, I'd contend that getting Wasted is something you actively want!

The point is, there's nothing you can do against Wasteland. Play Noble Hierarch and Wastelands of your own, and win with the free turn.

I'm considering a redesign with Noble, but am honestly not sure how such a list would like right now. It certainly makes Clique sound better than in the original list though - I often had difficulty casting it against decks with Wastelands. And yes, getting Wasted is fine until you don't draw more lands and/or they have multiples or you have a threat-light draw (all issues that I encountered).

[Plm]

I play medium blue zoo ( ie : neither big blue zoo with walkers and hierarch nor blue slight with goblin guide, linx and wasteland) .

Force is a good card ( if some still hadn't figured that ) . At 4 of it tend to cluter my hand while I can't cast it due to low blue count. I play 2 main 2 side because I feel naked without some hardcounter game 1 , I usually need it only once a game but when I need it, I need it badly ( like against moat, belcher , lot of stuff you know)

My meta is particular ; we got 1/3 combo ( no storm ) 1/3 agro 1/6 landstill 1/6 agro control. I like my force, because winning against combo is the nuts with zoo.



About wasteland, as I said in my report , no problem. In 5 games , 4 opponment wasted me . The only time I lost a game because of it was against a hand of 3 waste loam misstep 2 fetch . Yeah it sucked hard.

I have absolutely no idea where to put a basic ( my 61 card is a tundra and I intend to keep it ) .

Playing 7 cantrips help a lot, as well as playing goyf as your most expensive spell .

[troopatroop]

Being threat light is something to be worried about, and it happened to me alot during the tournament. If you can't draw creatures or stick them, then you can't even get started towards winning the game, which is such a joke against anything running SFM. All they need is that 1 SFM, and you're sunk. In one game, I actually got the chance to double bolt the Batterskull and Attack, but he simply returned it to his hand and flashed it back in next turn. This deck has no good answer to it lategame, so it's a real trump. My Lavamancers always got Misstepped or Sworded.

I'm seriously considering Manriki-Gusari to fetch with SFM. Against the Control builds of Stoneblade, if you land your SFM first and grab it, and they can't spot kill the SFM, your Noble Hierarchs can actually permanantly protect you from Batterskull shenanigans. Since he seems like their primary offensive and defensive plan right now, I think it could be really potent. It could be a little win-more, but it's definitely playable! :P

[Mr. Safety]

Zenith for BTS costs 4 mana. Then you start pinging them for 1. That's all too slow, I mean I can see turn 2 off a Hierarch being good, but then you COULD have a KoTR in play. 3/4 for 4 that can't attack through Goyf? No thanks. Jace is a 4 mana spell, think of it that way.

I think BTS is tech vs. CounterTop...but that's about it. CounterTop has really fallen out of favor lately, though, as a lot of decks are playing to the mid-game much more now.

[troopatroop]

I think BTS is tech vs. CounterTop...but that's about it. CounterTop has really fallen out of favor lately, though, as a lot of decks are playing to the mid-game much more now.

It's really not that good versus CounterTop either, tho. Tarmogoyf, KoTR, and Batterskull all stop it dead offensively, and the fact that it costs 3 mana makes it Daze bait. Counterbalance is dead, and if you want to Zenith, Zenith for Qasali Pridemage and blow the fucking thing up.

Look at it this way, if the card is 3 mana, and obsoleted by Tarmogoyf or Stoneforge Mystic, then its going to be forever unplayable in Legacy. Silvergill Adept at least draws a card, much the same with Dark Confidant. Grim Lavamancer is really good, and 1cc is the place to be for creatures. Some people don't have faith in Wild Nacatl, and I can't understand that. There's very few castable creatures that are viable in Legacy, barring special circumstances. It's like 10 guys long.

Wild Nacatl
Noble Hierarch
Grim Lavamancer
Mother of Runes
Stoneforge Mystic
Dark Confidant
Tarmogoyf
Silvergill Adept
Knight of the Reliquary
Vendilion Clique

Honorable mentions to Goblin Lackey, Qasali Pridemage, Steppe Lynx and Goblin Guide, there's not much wiggle room amongst creatures in Legacy. I guess Burning Tree Shaman has some applications where it's especially powerful (Necrotic Ooze? Top?), but Zenithing for Knight of the Reliquary or Qasali Pridemage is probably more powerful, or at least a thorough enough MD plan to devote SB slots to other things/needs.

I'll reiterate, the card has the best name ever, but I don't think it's particularly powerful :)

[whiley85]

Kird Ape was also, hit or miss. I liked when I had Wild Nacatl + Ape clocking for 5, and I won many games that way. However, Kird Ape on his own is really sad. He gets blocked by everything, only does his 2 damage, and it's a card investment. I took inventory of it, and in many games that I casted Kird Apes, it would've been just as easy for me to be casting Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull, which is a much stronger 1 card investment, and a safer plan than attacking with a 2/3. This tournament made me think alot about Steppe Lynx tbh, and how much faster he could make the deck. Even in the games I lost, I was able to put alot of pressure on early + deal massive damage. Lynx may have won these games in which Kird Ape fell short, even on weak "land heavy" draws, just by putting them deeper in the red sooner. I do not think I'll be playing with Kird Ape again. While I like what he does well, in rounding out the beats and adding more 1drops, but there's simply much more powerful things going on in Legacy atm to go back to the 1999 Monkey. Steppe Lynx + Daze + Wasteland may be the answer.

I thought the same way on the tourney except I played lynx and felt comfortable with it on the play and on the draw either. If you drop it 1st turn, latest 2nd turn, you benefit from a huge amount of damage. From 3rd turn on you want to get rid of it and shuffle it away. But so you do with kird.
Also Wastelands turns me on and I want to find place for it.
There would be great scenarios when you stick a cmc1 drop, get wasted, stick your second and then waste by yourself. I can't describe what tempo gain this would be, just GG! But I think every Wasteland I add mustn't exchange one of the 18 colored sources.

[Hanni]

Haven't posted in here in a while. Just wanna say that I like the design of the Big Blue Zoo deck, and that it sounds like it would fix some of the problems against opposing midrange aggro/control.

However, I've been toying around with ways to try and make the deck more aggressive early game, and I have to say, Goblin Guide has been the best creature in the deck. Unlike Kird Ape and Wild Nacatl, Guide is almost always guarunteed to push some damage through early. Unless you're on the draw or the opponent has the turn 1 Misstep/FoW, he's doing a minimum of 2 damage. Turn 1 Guide, turn 2 Guide, is 6 damage. While the card disadvantage from FoW hurts us because it gases us, giving the opponent card advantage (roughly 1/3 of the time) with Guide is far less relevant. Even a midgame Guide is often a Shock, since most players won't be holding blockers back. Guide has been my MVP in the few experimental playtests I've done with him.

I need to do alot of testing to figure out a solid list with him, because figuring out what to cut is a little tricky. I'm leaning on cutting Wild Nacatl to be honest, because it would make the manabase absolutely rock solid. I really hate the games where my Nacatl is a 1/1 for the first few turns, and as a 2/2, he'd be better off as a Kird Ape. The damage difference between a 2/3 and a 3/3 is huge though, so I'm torn between what to cut.

There's also the issue with Force of Will. Recently, I've cut 1 (going down to 3) for the 4th Chain Lightning, and have been very pleased. FoW is still a lifesaver in so many situations, but I'm also flirting with the idea of cutting them for 3 Fireblasts (maindeck) and tossing 4 FoW in the board.

Here's what that would look like:

U/R/g Blue Sligh

// Lands (18)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Tropical Island

// Creatures (15)
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [R] Kird Ape
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells (27)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
3 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [NE] Submerge
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

The increased aggression and burn density gives the deck the critical mass it needs to become fundamentally a Sligh deck instead of Zoo. By becoming more like Sligh, the deck becomes less dependant on creatures by midgame, and dramatically improves its midrange matchups without sacrificing much from its combo and control matchups. The loss of FoW hurts against combo a little, but the clock is still fast, and Misstep + Daze still offer a tremendous amount of tempo to beat combo decks. Postboard with the FoW's (and possibly REB's), the 2/3 gameset vs combo should still remain positive. It's also possible for me to swap the FoW's to the maindeck and the Fireblast's to the sideboard, too.

Thoughts?

[the_ob3lisk]

Going to be testing out a list very similar to troopatroop's a few post up tomorrow at local Thursday night legacy. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Tried Caleb's list a few weeks ago with much success.

[the_ob3lisk]

Uploaded my report if any of you guys care to read it!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21589-Card-Empire-Legacy-7-28-Blue-Zoo-1st-Place

[Bloodlotus]

Congratz the_ob3lisk !

Just Top 8ed in a 61 player tournament with this version :

1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
3 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [9E] Kird Ape
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl

3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep

SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSP] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [LG] Chain Lightning

2-0 UW Stoneforge
2-0 Sneak Show
2-0 GW Aggro (closer to Zeta Bomb than Maverick, Zenith + NO)
2-1 Zenith Bant NO
ID
ID

Top 8
2-0 UW Stoneforge (the same guy)
1-2 Death & Taxes (mull 5 no misstep vs Vial T1 :/)

Sower wins my 3rd game against Bant (took his KotR), but I do think it's not worth the slot (cost 4 !). I consider the following shell for my MD :

1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Volcanic Island
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
4 [9E] Kird Ape
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl

3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
3 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep

57 cards, with 3 slots remaining.

I can't imagine cutting even 1 Spell Snare as THIS card is so unfair in the current metagame (I certainly couldn't have won vs UW Stoneforge and GW Aggro if I had Chain Lightning instead, you can't let your opp fetch his equip). I won 1 game vs D&T with double snare + Daze on 3 SFM...

3 Force of Will, with the 4th in SB, because Rea & Hive Mind are tight MU. Otherwise, I agree that I don't want to see more than 1 FoW per non-combo game.

I have the choice of 3 Chain Lightning, or 3 Fire/ice for the remaining slots. I tend to slightly prefer Fire/ice, because tapping the fatty and time walking is good especially in this deck, it still kills SFM and can do 2 for 1 in many tight MU, but it costs 2, and the difference of 1 dmg between Chain and Fire could be a problem if I need to finish my opp with burn dmgs. What do you guys think ?

Now with the SB, I certainly need Artifact/Enchant Hate. Why do you prefer Ancient Grudge over Krosan Grip ?

Would you run Scavenging Ooze (which can be good against KotR) or stick with traditionnal Grave Hate (Tormod) ?

Thanks for any answers :)

[CalebD]

Caleb! I somewhat remember you chiming in on the U/G Survival-Vine thread. Care to share some insight?

Just saw the thread. Already wrote a couple articles on the deck, and don't have much more to add. If you have any specific questions then send them my way, but I'm leaving for GenCon and will be busy all week.

Oh, Hive Mind players have started running Chalice @ 1 post board, so adding some negates or upping the number of qasali is necessary to continue to have a relatively even match with them. Adding cliques helps, too. Aven Mindcensor could be a maindeck card. Tower was absurd, and I would add a couple to the board/main of any deck with a weakness to batterskull/equipment without any hesitation (particularly Merfolk.)

[troopatroop]

What do you think about Stoneforge Mystic? Take this list for example.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Batterskull

1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Daze
3 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest

2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Taiga

3 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Karakas
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Energy Flux
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sundial of the Infinite


This basic skeleton has been playing really well. It skimps on Removal spells in playing only 4, but also alleviates the need for them. Batterskull is great position for such low investment, and I think this deck is primed to take advantage of it. Elspeth can be Jace, and I almost like her better with Batterskull in the deck, although Jace bounce/brainstorm can be great too. Daze as a soft counter helps in all matchups, and works really well with SFM-Batterskull. What do you think? Noble Hierarch was brilliant, btw. I think combining the Wild Nacatl AND Noble Hierarch openings with Daze and Wasteland makes this deck next level. These cards eat Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares like no other, leaving the path clear for Stoneforge Mystic or Knight.

[GGoober]

What do you think about Stoneforge Mystic? Take this list for example.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Batterskull

1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Daze
3 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest

2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Taiga

3 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Karakas
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Energy Flux
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sundial of the Infinite


This basic skeleton has been playing really well. It skimps on Removal spells in playing only 4, but also alleviates the need for them. Batterskull is great position for such low investment, and I think this deck is primed to take advantage of it. Elspeth can be Jace, and I almost like her better with Batterskull in the deck, although Jace bounce/brainstorm can be great too. Daze as a soft counter helps in all matchups, and works really well with SFM-Batterskull. What do you think? Noble Hierarch was brilliant, btw. I think combining the Wild Nacatl AND Noble Hierarch openings with Daze and Wasteland makes this deck next level. These cards eat Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares like no other, leaving the path clear for Stoneforge Mystic or Knight.


That is Red Bant (with no Bolts) not Blue Zoo!!

Or calling it Wild Bant is awesome too :P I like it (the Taiga/Plateau are easily compensated from fetching by Hierarch providing Bant colors) BUT when you look at the list, it's asking: Is Wild Nacatl worth it in the list? Or is it better to run more GSZ/NO. I think you know the answer if you looked from that persepctive.

[troopatroop]

Natural Order isn't as good as people think it is. It's really a 4 mana win condition, that takes 2 turns after to kill. It's got alot of assurance, and it makes winning a game very easy. This is appealing to players and deckbuilders alike, because you don't have to think about it. No-Rug is a good deck, but I feel Wild Nacatl makes for a better deck. He can also win the game on his own, and for less investment. Elspeth, for example, is also a 4 mana win condition. When coupled with good creatures, it also wins the game in about two turns. She's not much different than Natural Order, in providing big evasive attack swings. She's also not a dead card with no creatures in play. She also does something the turn you play it.

Obviously, these two cards make for two very different strategies. The Wild Nacatl deck is all about attacking and board presence. You're inherantly more damage oriented than NO-RuG, but Wild Nacatl is the greatest card ever in that shell, and you have to see the allure in that. The real epiphany, was that Noble Hierarch IS viable in a damage oriented deck, because it accellerates Elspeth and KoTR, grants exalted, and combos with Wasteland and Daze. Hierarch and GSZ give this deck 1drops 5-10, which is incredibly important for consistancy. The ability to deal fat damage with Nacatl, while also playing free soft counters, while also playing SFM/KOTR/Elspeth is seriously underrated, and an even better strategy that Natural Order, imo.

... and it's a Blue Zoo deck based in white. K. Also, posting with content is the new buzz, you should try it sometime.

[MtgPhreakin]

Hey do you guys think that running one Ranger of Eos in the main or sideboard to fetch wild nacatyls and maybe a grim lavamancer is stupid? I tried it on modo and it worked unexpectedly...against landstill.

[troopatroop]

Well it's a relic of Kurtis Droge's original Blue Zoo list that played it to success. Against Landstill it's obviously amazing, because that matchup is all about attrition. This is not something to be suprised about. The thing about Ranger, is that it isn't good when you're ahead. It can be good against slower decks that are trying to grind you out, but I feel that that part of the metagame is shrinking. When you compare him to Elspeth, Jace, SFM-SKULL, or Natural Order, you can get alot more for 4 mana. Landstill and CB-Top are where he "shines", and Thrun might just be better there.

[troopatroop]

This deck will henceforth be named, "Wizards, Tigers, and Kors, Oh My!"


4 Wild Nacatl
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
2 Knight of the Reliquary

1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Mental Misstep
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Plateau

4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wooded Foothills


This is my new list. Grim Lavamancer is everything and more, so I added 3x. Stoneforge Mystic is far too good not to play in Legacy right now.

[Hanni]

It seems like the general consensus has trended towards Big Blue Zoo. Has everyone given up on the fast approach? Also, for what it's worth, I think SFM is completely wrong for this deck.

Anyway, when I re-examined my build last time, I came to some good conclusions. I should have never gotten away from my roots. Most of my prior deckbuilding and playtesting experience has been with Cat Sligh, not Zoo. My first builds with this deck got away from that. Grim Lavamncer and Tarmogoyf are slow at dealing damage, and Goblin Guide is the hands down MVP for any Sligh list.

When I get home from work, I'll post up my age old Naya Sligh list for background reference, and my current Blue Sligh list which is an absolute monster. If the concept of Blue Sligh no longer belongs in this thread, let me know and I'll start up a new thread.

[Hanni]

It seems like the general consensus has trended towards Big Blue Zoo. Has everyone given up on the fast approach? Also, for what it's worth, I think SFM is completely wrong for this deck.

Anyway, when I re-examined my build last time, I came to some good conclusions. I should have never gotten away from my roots. Most of my prior deckbuilding and playtesting experience has been with Cat Sligh, not Zoo. My first builds with this deck got away from that. Grim Lavamncer and Tarmogoyf are slow at dealing damage, and Goblin Guide is the hands down MVP for any Sligh list.

The way I see it, going the middle road works, but it's less effective than going full-on balls to the wall Sligh, or going midrange with Big Zoo.

When I get home from work, I'll post up my age old Naya Sligh list for background reference, and my current Blue Sligh list which is an absolute monster. If the concept of Blue Sligh no longer belongs in this thread, let me know and I'll start up a new thread.

EDIT: As promised...

R/g/w Naya Sligh

// Lands (20)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau
2 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures (16)
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx

// Spells (24)
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [ROE] Forked Bolt
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

The above deck is incredibly consistent at what it does. However, aside from burning small blockers, the deck does not interact with the opponent whatsoever. That means that an opponent's StP on my turn 1 Steppe Lynx is essentially a Time Walk for them. The deck does actually perform well vs combo though; it's got a turn 3 goldfish, so it's roughly 50/50 with ANT and has a favorable SNT matchup.

Anyway, here's the blue version...

R/U/w/g Blue Sligh

// Lands (19)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures (14)
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
2 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl

// Spells (27)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
3 [TSP] Rift Bolt

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge

The deck loses alot of redundancy with its lower burn density, and loses some manabase stability, but it makes up for it in several ways. The free countermagic allows the deck to more consistently deal damage with its creatures early, which is the timeframe where the deck actually cares about its creatures. Daze is also nice at keeping a turn 2 Goyf or turn 3 KotR off the board, allowing my creatures to deal more damage. Fire/Ice is another improvement in that area, allowing a board of say a Nacatl and a Guide to swing for 5 against a Goyf (w/ Ice).

Basically, blue helps me interact with my opponent. Since the deck runs a large amount of aggressive 1cc creatures, the deck consistently overwhelms the opponent with beats early, just like my old Naya Sligh list did. The free countermagic facilitates this even further, allowing me to essentially goldfish my opponent's, regardless if they can interact with me. Fire/Ice again facilitates this even further, by allowing me push even more damage through.

By the time my opponent's can finally stabilize, either through blockers or removal, they are within definitive burn range. My burn density is not nearly as large as in the Naya Sligh build, but with Brainstorm, I'm still very capable of digging through my deck to grab the last few burn spells I need to finish. Brainstorm itself is an awesome addition, increasing midgame consistency by fixing horrible topdecks (land floods, useless creatures, etc). Oh, and a midgame Goblin Guide is usually the same thing as a topdecked Shock.

I also really like the synergy between Daze and Steppe Lynx.

Anyway, that's all I have for now.

[troopatroop]

I like those lists, but I like Stoneforge Mystic!

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Daze

4 Wasteland

2 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest

[PaRa]

hey guys, i played following list at our local tournament finishing 4:2 and in 15th place...53 people came to fight for 8 Duals and all 4:1:1 or better took one home...

(15)
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Terravore

(25)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Punishing Fire
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Mental Misstep
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

(21)
3x Windswept heath
2x Arid Mesa
3x Misty Rainforst
1x Plateau
1x Taiga
1x Tundra
1x Savannah
1x Volcanic Island
2x Tropical Island
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas

Sideboard:

2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Aven Mindcensor
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Submerge

My matchups where:

Round 1 Merfolk: 1:2 (Kira wins him the game while having counter backup twice for my two removals)
0:1 - 1:2

Round 2 Merfolk: 2:0 (My deck does what it is supposed to do, Fire/Grove eats the fish alive.)
1:1 - 3:2

Round 3 Goblins: 2:0 (Fire/Grove > Goblins too)
2:1 - 5:2

Round 4 RUG Order: 1:2 (He resolved NO 3x and takes the victory even when i was able to race him in game1.)
2:2 - 6:4

Round 5 Rogue: 2:0 (He plays Aurioc Salvagers and Helm/Leyline combo. He just dies...)
3:2 - 8:4

Round 6 Dragonstompy: 2:1 (He is able to steal a game with Chalice on 1, 2 and 3 on the board)
4:2 - 10:5

Overall i was happy with the performance but the loss vs Merfolk round one was unnecessary...To loose vs RUG Order was "ok" as my Sideboard needed one more Metamorph to have enough to battle NO at all which is rather slow but controlish Zoo list. The Terravore was supposed to be a Scavenging Ooze but the mailman was too late...

[lordofthepit]

hey guys, i played following list at our local tournament finishing 4:2 and in 15th place...53 people came to fight for 8 Duals and all 4:1:1 or better took one home...

(15)
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Terravore

(25)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Punishing Fire
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Mental Misstep
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

(21)
3x Windswept heath
2x Arid Mesa
3x Misty Rainforst
1x Plateau
1x Taiga
1x Tundra
1x Savannah
1x Volcanic Island
2x Tropical Island
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas

I'm amazed you managed to squeeze Fires/Grove into a deck already running 4 colors. Did it feel a bit greedy to you?

I've been running Fires/Grove with Mental Missteps (and SB Metamorphs) to pretty good success since NPH came out, but I gave up on it after the meta shifted at SCG Seattle (finished 6-2).

I'm wondering what blue gives you. Brainstorm is really awesome, and I definitely wish I had access to that. Not sure Jace is what this deck needs though; maybe it is in Blue Zoo without Punishing Fires, but with the Fires combo, you already have a great long game. Moreover, in this type of a deck (which runs a lot of creatures and removal), Elspeth seems better at putting you ahead from an even position and pulling you even when you're slightly behind, so I'd like to hear about your experiences with JTMS.

I'd really like to just be playing Zoo, but I think Brainstorm and Mental Misstep are too good in the format to skip up on. I'd also like to be playing Wastelands right now in a fast deck, but then there are those mana issues. :frown:

[PaRa]

@lordofthepit: you are right. The deck feel quite clunky but has a good mix of aggro and control elements.

If my opponent is able to destroy more than two lands then im basically dead when i havent landed a Noble before.

Jace was good for a few extra brainstorms and won me a game in Round 5 as i was able to keep him of the 4th mana which might have turned the game into his favour.

[Demonic_Attorney]

@Troop:

Stoneforge Mystics are fine in metagames full of creature decks, like zoo, merfolk, maverick and goblins, etc., however, that's not what the majority of people are playing right now at large scale legacy events on the 5k circuit. I don't see it being necessary or prudent to play in this deck right now. Stoneforge can also turn on an otherwise dead qasali pridemage in the mirror or against big, traditional or fast sligh zoo while eating up precious turns of tempo. Therefore, it is generally not worth it as stoneforge is a lot slower and the deck also loses consistency without zenith.

That being said, Clique and Aven carry equipment so well and make up for the tempo and power loss of knight and zenith. I agree with your decision that if you are going to play stoneforge and equipment (i.e. jitte and SOBM) that clique and aven (at least in the board) replace Knight and Zenith. Playing 4x stoneforge is too much for this deck and 2-3 seems like the correct number to be playing if you opt to go the stoneforge route with this deck.

I vigorously disagree with playing force of will in this deck and for not running some number of Tarmogoyfs. Also, playing 4x wasteland in a 4 colour deck with a very fragile manabase is ultra risky and doesn't seem like a prudent thing to do.

[troopatroop]

I think Mental Misstep's banning changes this deck alot. With Misstep gone, much more people will be playing quick combo, and our deck will have less to fight it, and less easy cards for Force count! It's a tragedy. Thankfully, Snapcaster Mage is Value-city, and Wild Nacatl is even stronger than it was. This list is about as Anti-Combo as it can be, but I won't mind being on that niche for the new format. The deck tempos well.


4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Wasteland

2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Taiga

4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand

This is the list I'm looking at for the new format. I WANT Force of Will. I WANT Daze, Badly!

Note 0 Noble Hierarch. Note 0 GSZ. Note 0 Jace, the Mind Sculptor. This most definitely is NOT Big Zoo. The thing about Big Zoo, is you're in vesting in cards to make other cards better. When the cards you play after are answered, or if you're demanded of an answer, you've always got less because of the Noble Hierarch or Dryad Arbor. It's hard to explain why that matters, but accelerants make or break you. This list has none of that, which is a significant change in playstyle. I think that Snapcaster Mage, really enhances said strategy however, of just playing straight Attrition. Not playing 1cc Accelerants, but instead playing Stifle! and Wasteland. Lightning Bolt and STP don't hurt either!

The real ace in the hole, is the ability to play turn 1 Tropical Island-> Nacatl. Often they'll say Fetch -> Go, and they're in serious trouble if so.

The list is VERY Canadian Threshold, and MM being gone is good for Stifle. It's very different, but I'd like feedback.

[Esper3k]

I like the very Canadian Thresh feel of it.

Do you think that StP is needed? I mean yeah, it sucks to have a big guy, but would something like Chain Lightning or Lavamancer be better to give you a little more reach?

I'm not 100% certain Snapcaster works that well in a deck like this. I think when you're pushing tempo, you're going to want something a little tougher / more reach to put pressure on an opponent than card advantage?

[troopatroop]

I like the very Canadian Thresh feel of it.

Do you think that StP is needed? I mean yeah, it sucks to have a big guy, but would something like Chain Lightning or Lavamancer be better to give you a little more reach?

I'm not 100% certain Snapcaster works that well in a deck like this. I think when you're pushing tempo, you're going to want something a little tougher / more reach to put pressure on an opponent than card advantage?

Well the plan is to ride Wild Nacatl for 6 turns or Goyf for 4. The deck plays 8 threats, like Can-Thresh did.


Snapcaster Mage really only doubles as a spell. I've really enjoyed playing 4 Bolt and 4 STP, especially with the SnapMage, because you'll always have removal to double up. The 2/1 body can help you win the game, can block for a 2v1, or can pitch to Force of Will. 8 Removals is great, because the deck can't really answer Tarmogoyf/Knight well without STP, but with Snapcaster Mage you can handle multiples! It's a 3cc card, so decks with fewer lands can't really support it, but I'm playing 22 with Wastelands! Playing a 3cc 2for 1 is also really strong, because it stretches the action coming from this deck, whereas normally you wouldn't have anything bigger to cast with lands 3-5. This deck can use that much mana mid-game, leading to very consistant action at all points of the game. I'm really liking that deck, Nacatl is my boy! :D

Also, the CA from Snapcaster + 6 Cantrips is the only reason we can truly support Force. I think it's really strong now.

[Esper3k]

I'm really liking that deck, Nacatl is my boy! :D

Nacatl is a girl! :)

Yeah, I just worry about the thought that Snapcaster is truly a 2 for 1 since with his 2/1 body, he's not going to usually be trading or doing much against most creatures in Legacy, you know?

[tsabo_tavoc]

troopatropp:

I like your list a lot, truly abusing Snapcaster Mage. As Canadian Thresh only plays 18 lands, I don't think you really need 22. I would consider -2 Land, -1 Mage, +3 Spell Snare/Spell Pierce.

Also, how do you feel about the new U 3/2 Flying transformer. The only advantage over Nacatl is Flying, and I wonder how relevant is it in the deck.

[Esper3k]

That guy actually seems really good. In a deck like this, you're almost like a Sligh deck and the evasion really helps you get that extra damage through.

[tsabo_tavoc]

That guy actually seems really good. In a deck like this, you're almost like a Sligh deck and the evasion really helps you get that extra damage through.

If the Cat can be replaced by the Insect, white can be cut for a better mana base. Dismember synergises better with the Tempo strategy than Swords. This probably belongs to the Tempo Thresh thread, though. I also had a crazy idea about Jötun Grunt replacing Tarmogoyf, and was only dismissed due to Grunt worse in multiples.

4 Wasteland
2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

4 Insectile Aberration
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Dismember

SB:

3 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Firespout / Grim Lavamancer
2 Submerge

[Hanni]

It really sucks that they banned Mental Misstep before releasing INN, because Insectile Abberation + Mental Misstep would have pushed this deck over the edge.

Even without Mental Misstep though, Insectile Abberation still gives this deck incentive to splash blue. Without that guy, I'd rather play regular Zoo or Cat Sligh, but with him, I can see this deck remaining alive.

I still think the Stifle/Wasteland plan is wrong, for the same reasons I felt it was wrong before. You want to be dropping guys on turn 1-2, not holding U open for Stifle.

Losing Mental Misstep really changes the dynamics of this deck. Fortunately, gaining Insectile Abberation maintains our blue spell count for FoW. However, I'm not sure at this point if I would want to incorporate FoW into the maindeck or sideboard, but my inclination is to relegate it to the sideboard.

The blue core being:

4 Insectile Abberation
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire/Ice

I can see arguments made for being Big Zoo, thusly running some number of Clique/Jace instead of Fire/Ice, but since I prefer to be less midrangey and more aggressive, I'm biased towards developing a more Sligh approach, with the above core being my starting point.

The rest of the deck... I'm not sure yet. I'd start off with the list I posted a page back, and work from there, though.

I've been massively busy with work and school lately, so I haven't had the time to really dig into magic. If I get around to it, I'll work on this some.

EDIT: Phantasmal Bear also seems alot more attractive now, with Insectile Abberation. Before, he was just a worse Kird Ape, but now with Abberation, there's enough blue doods that it may be possible to chop this down to being a 3-color deck. Not sure though... Wild Nacatl is still really good.

[Esper3k]

Would the 2 mana illusion clone guy be better than the bear? Sure he's got the illusion drawback, but I can't help but think he's better than a 2/2?

[troopatroop]

Yeah, I'm not sure. All good questions! The fact that they printed a 3/2 flyer for U is totally insane.

I think the question we all need to be asking is, After all these new blue cards become viable, how do we NOT play FoW?

[ajfennewald]

Thoughts on this list

4 FOW
4 Daze
4 brainstorm
4 fire/ice
4 delver of secrets
4 wild nacatl
3 grim lavamancer
4 tarmogoyf
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
2 kird ape
4 wooded foothills
4 scalding tarn
3 misty rainforest
2 taiga
2 tropical island
2 volcanic island
1 plateau
1 savanna

[Hanni]

I thought the 1/1 that grows to 3/2 Flying was called Insectile Abberation, not Delver of Secrets. My bad. I don't feel like editing my post above, but hopefully you guys knew what I meant.

[ajfennewald]

I thought the 1/1 that grows to 3/2 Flying was called Insectile Abberation, not Delver of Secrets. My bad. I don't feel like editing my post above, but hopefully you guys knew what I meant.
I think delver of secrets refers to the 1/1 and Insectile aberration reefers to the 3/2. I am not sure what the proper nomenclature for these cards is.

[troopatroop]

Thoughts on this list

Force of Will: This may not be what the deck wants. Card disadvantage is bad for damage oriented decks...

Tarmogoyf: These cards could be sorceries or instants for Delver. You're sitting at 24, which isn't 50% sometimes... Tarmogoyf is great, but Snapcaster Mage might just be better, imo.

my latest attempt... somewhat due to card availability...


4 delver of secrets/insectile aberation
4 wild nacatl
3 snapcaster mage
2 tarmogoyf

4 ponder
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 Fow
4 Daze
4 brainstorm
4 fire/ice

4 wooded foothills
4 scalding tarn
3 misty rainforest
2 taiga
2 tropical island
2 volcanic island
1 plateau
1 savanna


I just loovvveee the Snapcaster. 8 1 Drops is enough creature/threat (think goblins). The rest of our plan CAN be Grim Lavamancer or Snapcaster Mage. I like Snappy, because he pitches to FoW, and our Burn often keeps smaller threats in check anyways. Snapcaster for Ice on turn 4 is strong. Also, Note the 23 Blue cards for Force of Will. This deck is poised to stop Combo really well, especially with Spell Pierce post sideboard. Snapcaster Mage and Spell Pierce is just devastating in addition to FowDaze, and Wild Nacatl/Insectileraptor clock. I guess Stifle+Waste beats it...

[troopatroop]

Sorry for double post, It's been a few days. New/Better list.


4 delver of secrets
4 wild nacatl

3 snapcaster mage
2 grim lavamancer

4 ponder
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 brainstorm
4 fire

4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
3 flooded strand
2 taiga
2 tropical island
2 volcanic island
1 tundra
1 plateau


Tundra is better than Savannah. 10 1-Drop creatures, 28 Instants + Sorceries, 3 Snapcaster.

The disynergy with Grim Lavamancer and Snapcaster is fairly minimal compared to what I thought it would be. I like that Lavamang uses the Plateau on the board every turn. Not like we're short on Red spells, but it does alleviate the stress of Wild Nacatl on the deck, by making the manabase that little bit more effective. Without Misstep in the format, Merfolk really hates to see Grim Lavamancer turn 1. Daze their Vial and they cry! :D
This manabase here is also ultrastable. 19 Land is alot for 8cantrips+1cccards.dec. Insect+Nacatl is powerful. Nuts against combo, imo.

[troopatroop]

Triple/Quintuple Post! Sue me. I've done some testing against what I think are the top decks.


Merfolk: 65/35

This matchup is where this deck shines. Without Mental Misstep, they have less to fight our lockdown burn suite + 1 Drops. Obviously, Grim Lavamancer is the nuts, but the 3 power creatures are so good against them, and Snapcaster Mage is often a 2 for 1. The games I lose, are usually on the draw against Aether Vial, Wasteland, and Daze. Even so, those games are totally winnable. 8 Cantrips find your Creatures, Lands, and Burn spells. Be careful of Vial tricks EoT, especially LoA and Kira! Silvergill Adept can also bury you, hope they don't see it.

T.E.S: 60/40

I'd consider this a positive matchup. They have 0 removal for the fastest P/T creatures for 1 in the game. We have Force and Daze active. We have Cantrips to find SB cards, and Spell Pierce + Snapcaster post SB. It's not all that great however, because I play Fire/Ice, Grim, and Chain maindeck, which are all weak here. Storm can Duress you, Chant you, and Kill you without you having a say in it, so it's always a scary matchup. Use Brainstorm wisely, save Force for Chant, and get a 3/3-2 turn 1, and you'll have a good chance.

U/w Stoneforge 55/45

1 Drops are good against Standstill. Mental Misstep can't protect their Mystics. Grim Lavamancer is great here. Jace isn't that scary for us with 8 bolts, Ancestral Visions is slow, and they often have to play into Daze. I've played this matchup the most, and while last night I went 7-2! against it, I just proceeded to get stomped in the last three games we played, so I adjusted the %. Snapcaster + Bolt kills Batterskull 1for1, and Flying is very good! Insectile really demands the removal spell for them. Fairly good matchup.

Zoo 35/65

This matchup is NOT very good. Our threats are easily removable, and they play more of everything. Tarmogoyf is, in general, an absolute beating against us. We often expend our burn on their first creatures, only to die to a Knight or Goyf. Zoo is so redundant, and while we can beat them up good, it takes a good draw. That's harder for us to get than for Zoo to get, in truth. Also, if they're playing Big Zoo, that's even worse for you. I'd put it at 30/70, because Elspeth is insane, and they're playing Zenith. Insectile flies, but it's getting shot down, and Force is not what you want here. Rough matchup.

This was with the list right above this. 2 Grim, 3 Snappy, 28 Instant/Sorcery.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I don't know if this is 100% the right thread for this idea, but I've been wondering how a creature base of 4 Delver of Secrets, 4 Wild Nacatl, 4 Steppe Lynx, 4 Goblin Guide would play out in sort of a Sligh shell with a lot of burn and maybe Path to Exile. I probably wouldn't maindeck FoW with that idea, but I'd probably use Brainstorm, Fire/ Ice, Delver, and Daze, in order to keeP the forces in the board. Seem viable, or do y'all think Lynx and Guide are too weak?

[troopatroop]

I just think that fucks with the manabase too much. Thats 4 different colors needed on turn 1, and although I could see Goblin Guide, I think the main point is that Delver of Secrets doesn't want to be in a deck with 16 creatures or more, because on top of Lands, it becomes unlikely you'll hit the Instant/Sorcery. Steppe Lynx is stretching it, imo. I've found just Nacatl/Delver/Grim for 1cc guys is optimal. Also, 19 land for Snapcaster Mage is enough with the 8 Cantrips, which I highly support running with Delver. Ponder is very underated right now for its interaction with Delver. Turn 1 Ponder lets you set up Turn 2 Insectile, Turn 3 Swing for sure. Needing to not hit LANDS and CREATURES is a serious drawback to Delver. I'd still rather open with Nacatl.

[ajfennewald]

Here is what my list has developed into. Thinking of playing it at SCG KC. I added 2 ponders and lowered my creature count as a concession to delver. Added spell pierce main to make combo a bit better.
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
2 spell pierce
3 fire/ice
4 delver of secrets
4 wild nacatl
3 grim lavamancer
4 tarmogoyf
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 wooded foothills
4 scalding tarn
2 misty rainforest
2 taiga
2 tropical island
2 volcanic island
1 plateau
1 savanna

[KobeBryan]

Here is what my list has developed into. Thinking of playing it at SCG KC. I added 2 ponders and lowered my creature count as a concession to delver. Added spell pierce main to make combo a bit better.
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
2 spell pierce
3 fire/ice
4 delver of secrets
4 wild nacatl
3 grim lavamancer
4 tarmogoyf
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 wooded foothills
4 scalding tarn
2 misty rainforest
2 taiga
2 tropical island
2 volcanic island
1 plateau
1 savanna

This deck, zoo, and that new UWR blade control is fish's worst nightmare. For the love of god, I cannot do anything agianst these decks. I think its the red in the decks that make it so potent.

[Oxmo39]

@troop : is snapcaster that great in this deck ? wouldn't it be better to include goyfs instead to improve though MU's like zoo ?
I guess it could make the combo MU worse, but could depend on meta...

[Goin Aggro]

This thing looks like an absolute beating against most of the major decktypes in the meta right now.

Has anyone actually taken this thing to a 5 round plus tournament/done a lot of testing beyond what Champachamp has done?

[Final Fortune]

I think you're wasting your time with Snapcaster Mage, it doesn't do anything good enough to replace Tarmogoyf as the most cost efficient threat in your deck.

I've had some solid results with just this,

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

9 Fetch
1 Tropical
1 Volcanic
1 Tundra
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Savanah
1 Island
4 Wasteland

The main problem tho' is the disynergy between Delver's dependance on Ponder and Ponder's shittyness in this deck's game plan. I really wish Dismember could go MD in place of Ponder, because I honestly think it's better than Swords to Plowshares even in BANT, but the absence of Ponder just makes Delver of Secrets too situational.

[BWM]

My list is probably closer to a regular zoo deck, but this is what I broke up last night, not for any particular reason, but just for you guys. I think blue zoo is a fair deck and probably the best of the fair decks in the format. Without mental misstep, I don't want to play this anymore, because it now loses too much.

My record on several Grand Prix Trials (for Amsterdam) is: 23-9 (as you can see, I'm really good at missing the top8, I always lost the last round and if I could ID, my opponent couldn't)

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Tundra
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3//4 Knight of the Reliquary
3//4 Qasali Pridemage
4//0 Mental Misstep
3//4 Daze
0//1 Chain Lightning

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Mind Harness
meta-calls

[Oxmo39]

I think you're wasting your time with Snapcaster Mage, it doesn't do anything good enough to replace Tarmogoyf as the most cost efficient threat in your deck.

I've had some solid results with just this,

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

9 Fetch
1 Tropical
1 Volcanic
1 Tundra
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Savanah
1 Island
4 Wasteland

The main problem tho' is the disynergy between Delver's dependance on Ponder and Ponder's shittyness in this deck's game plan. I really wish Dismember could go MD in place of Ponder, because I honestly think it's better than Swords to Plowshares even in BANT, but the absence of Ponder just makes Delver of Secrets too situational.

Don't you have any issue with mana ? Playing 3,5 colours with only 16 lands seems way too risky.
I mean, i like wasteland in a aggressive deck, this looks really dangerous.

Otherwise, lists with goyfs should have better aggro MU's.

Any experience against fish anyone ?

[KobeBryan]

Don't you have any issue with mana ? Playing 3,5 colours with only 16 lands seems way too risky.
I mean, i like wasteland in a aggressive deck, this looks really dangerous.

Otherwise, lists with goyfs should have better aggro MU's.

Any experience against fish anyone ?

This deck rapes fish. I have first hand experience as the fish player.

[TsumiBand]

This deck rapes fish.

Sometimes, capitalization is everything.

Some of these 4-color lists with White just for Nacatl look like poop. Is there the slightest chance that such lists would do well to simply be -4 Nacatl, URG? I mean, Wasteland exists, but more than that, you're playing a color of mana that you aren't even using for sideboard tech.

[Holden1669]

How about Nimble Mongoose in place of Nacatl? With more spells in the deck to support Delver you should be able to get threshold fairly easily. You won't be attacking with 3/3 on turn two, though. And it fights with lavamancer. Is there another possible replacement that lets us drop white? Phantasmal bear? Kird ape?

[Sea R Hill]

I have been playing a similar list as ajfennewald's one with Kird Ape instead of Nacatl and it is THE NUTS.

I tried with Goblin Guide first, and this creature sucks hard. On the 2 GP trials I played last WE (went 4-2 after 4-0 on Saturday and 3-1-1 the next day) I lost 2 games and made one draw only because of Goblin Guide who let my opponent get lucky (for example I lost against WW after winning "tough" MUs because he drew 4 lands on 5 attack phases including 2 Wasteland and 1 Mishra).

One of the biggest advantage of Delver is that we can finally drop these horrible Savannah and Plateau which make us lose way more games than the extra power of Nacatl makes us win ones.

I'll post my decklist after winning the last GP trial this WE. :wink:

[Final Fortune]

I think you guys are seriously underrating Nacatl and what he does for this deck. I know Delver of Secrets is the new shiny, but it's the threshold of aggressive one drops that make this deck what it is and Nimble Mongoose or Kird Ape doesn't replace that.

You can obviously cut Wastelands if you see a lot of opposing Wasteland decks, I only really come up against NO RUG and Stoneblade so it isn't a big deal for me but I could definitely go for another Tropical and Volcanic Island and fill in the rest of the space with Fire/Ice.

Also why wouldn't we use /w for our SBs? Enlightened Tutor boards are pretty damn good.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Honestly, I think in mana-denial heavy metas, Kird Ape > Nacatl could be the right call. I've tested a few games where I never get the white source or it gets wasted, and Nacatl sits at 2/2 anyways.

Also, though, Path to Exile is not a bad card for this deck, for those who feel confidant splashing white for Nacatl. Unless your meta has a lot of Stifle + Wasteland, the fourth color is probably still worth it, imo.

[ajfennewald]

Sometimes, capitalization is everything.

Some of these 4-color lists with White just for Nacatl look like poop. Is there the slightest chance that such lists would do well to simply be -4 Nacatl, URG? I mean, Wasteland exists, but more than that, you're playing a color of mana that you aren't even using for sideboard tech.

I have though about dropping white. Nacatl fully powered is just so good though. I do use white in my sb. ATM this is what sideboard looks like.
2 spell pierce
2 ethersworn canonist
2 path to exile
3 submerge
2 reb
2 pride mage
2 tormods cyrpt
Prob needs some tweeking but seems like an ok baseline.

Its possible that path should be played in the place of some or all of either fire//ice or chain lightning. Even though fire ice can be awesome I would prob cut them over chain to keep my burn out ability high. I could be wrong in that regard though.

[Sea R Hill]

I'll post my decklist after winning the last GP trial this WE.

As promised, here is my decklist that won me 3 BYES on Saturday's Trial and placed me 3rd on Sunday's Trial:

MD :
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taïga


3 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
1 Rushing River

4 Fire / Ice
4 Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
1 Dismember

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of secrets
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim lavamancer



SB :
1 Force of Will
3 REB
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Submerge
1 Spell Pierce
1 Mind Harness
2 Ancient Grudge




A few comments:

-Drop Nacatl. This creature is old. Delver is the nuts. Kirp Ape is way better because with a 3cc manabase he's always 2/3 and you don't get mana screwed as often as before because you don't have to play those shitty Plateau and Savannah. In a lot of cases Nacatl is 2/2 anyway, and both him and Kirp Ape can end up 1/1 vanillas.

-PtE sucks. Daze is the best non-creature spell in this deck, and PtE just makes Daze worse. Plus I don't see why running PtE when Dismember does the same thing in 99% cases. Life loss is soooo irrelevant in this deck.

-Please don't suggest inappropriate cards for this deck, like E. Tutor. Too slow, too much CD, and useless anyways.





I'm thinking about playing that extra 4th Volcanic Island, because I lost 1 game yesterday after my opponent played 4 Wasteland against me because I was not able to fetch a 3rd land.

I'd also want an effective way to control my draws, as it seems that I only lose because of mana death or mana full. But Mirri's Guile seems too much CD and Sylvan Library too expensive. Any Idea?

[Mr. Safety]

I'd also want an effective way to control my draws, as it seems that I only lose because of mana death or mana full. But Mirri's Guile seems too much CD and Sylvan Library too expensive. Any Idea?

How did Fire/Ice work for you? The reason I ask is that you could potentially sub in some Magma Jets. You are essentially fixing your top 2 cards while shooting mana dorks.

Why so set against Sylvan Library? The card has always served me really well. As you already noted, life loss is fairly irrelivant. Sylvan Library can filter your top 3 and draw extras. At 2 mana, it isn't a stretch for an 18 land deck.

[Sea R Hill]

F/I have way more possibilities of use than Magma Jet.
Icing a creature that blocks while cantripping is already really good, when you add the possibility of burning your opponent or burning a creature or 2 creatures allowing you to 2 for 1 your opponent you can easily understand that it is ten times better than Magma Jet. Plus it pitches to FoW.

Problem of Guile and Library is that it doesn't serve the deck's strategy, it is just "good".

The slot I'm not sure about is Dismember.