Counterbalance Trigger

[Olesch]

Hello,

I have some questions regarding rulings of both Counterbalance and the rules in itself.

If I play a spell and my opponent controls Counterbalance, the first thing that happens is that the CB trigger goes on the stack and then I get priority to respond to it unless my opponent chooses to keep priority and respond. Of course he can respond to my response as well and so on, like the stack works.

Lets assume the following. My opponent is used to play Magic with all theese shortcuts and he totally forgets to point out to me what he does with the stack and which triggers he responds to etc.

Question 1. Do I as a player have the responsibility to make sure the CB trigger is not forgotten and that the trigger is played correctly? (He determines the trigger, say he keeps priority, answer with TOP etc) The card says Whenever an opponent plays a spell. Could it be that if I do nothing I can get a warning if it gets discovered later on?

Question 2. If the opponent forgets or does not declare the CB trigger correctly, can I then as a player say that he did not and the CB effect is ignored?

Question 3. Lets say the CB goes on the stack and my opponent does not declare that he keeps priority and I get the priority and then I do nothing and the CB resolves, what if my opponent then say; oh sorry, I should have responded with my TOP?!?

Question 4. My opponent uses Magic shortcuts and ignores telling me exactly what he does assuming that I understand what he does and then afterwards I interact and say; since you did not declare what you did correctly I declare that as an incorrect play and call the judge?

It would be good if a real judge with experience can answer theese questions.

I remember that there where some similar issue at a GP involving Patrick Chapin. I remember that there where some split rulings about it.

[cdr]

Hello,

I have some questions regarding rulings of both Counterbalance and the rules in itself.

If I play a spell and my opponent controls Counterbalance, the first thing that happens is that the CB trigger goes on the stack and then I get priority to respond to it unless my opponent chooses to keep priority and respond. Of course he can respond to my response as well and so on, like the stack works.

This is incorrect. You (the person who played the spell) get priority first but autopass to the CB trigger unless you specifically indicate you want to retain priority. You don't get a chance to respond to the CB trigger unless you say something while playing the spell or unless your opponent responds to the trigger. The person with the CB always gets priority.


Lets assume the following. My opponent is used to play Magic with all theese shortcuts and he totally forgets to point out to me what he does with the stack and which triggers he responds to etc.

Question 1. Do I as a player have the responsibility to make sure the CB trigger is not forgotten and that the trigger is played correctly? (He determines the trigger, say he keeps priority, answer with TOP etc) The card says Whenever an opponent plays a spell. Could it be that if I do nothing I can get a warning if it gets discovered later on?

"Whenever an opponent casts a spell, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, counter that spell if it has the same converted mana cost as the revealed card."

Counterbalance is a "may" trigger - if your opponent forgets about it, you assume that he chose not use the trigger and you don't have to say anything. I'm not sure what you mean by "played correctly".


Question 2. If the opponent forgets or does not declare the CB trigger correctly, can I then as a player say that he did not and the CB effect is ignored?

Not "ignored", your opponent just implicitly chose not to use it.


Question 3. Lets say the CB goes on the stack and my opponent does not declare that he keeps priority and I get the priority and then I do nothing and the CB resolves, what if my opponent then say; oh sorry, I should have responded with my TOP?!?

Again, you have priority backwards.


Question 4. My opponent uses Magic shortcuts and ignores telling me exactly what he does assuming that I understand what he does and then afterwards I interact and say; since you did not declare what you did correctly I declare that as an incorrect play and call the judge?

You might not understand how shortcuts work. If your opponent proposes a shortcut - moving from a legal gamestate to another legal gamestate by skipping some (legal) steps - you can either accept the shortcut or say at what point in the shortcut you'd like to stop and respond. If you don't understand a shortcut, either ask your opponent to explain it or don't accept it.


I remember that there where some similar issue at a GP involving Patrick Chapin. I remember that there where some split rulings about it.

This is not correct. There was an incorrect ruling invovling Chapin at the GP, but there are never "split rulings".

[Olesch]

This is incorrect. You (the person who played the spell) get priority first but autopass to the CB trigger unless you specifically indicate you want to retain priority. You don't get a chance to respond to the CB trigger unless you say something while playing the spell or unless your opponent responds to the trigger. The person with the CB always gets priority.



"Whenever an opponent casts a spell, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, counter that spell if it has the same converted mana cost as the revealed card."

Counterbalance is a "may" trigger - if your opponent forgets about it, you assume that he chose not use the trigger and you don't have to say anything. I'm not sure what you mean by "played correctly".



Not "ignored", your opponent just implicitly chose not to use it.



Again, you have priority backwards.



You might not understand how shortcuts work. If your opponent proposes a shortcut - moving from a legal gamestate to another legal gamestate by skipping some (legal) steps - you can either accept the shortcut or say at what point in the shortcut you'd like to stop and respond. If you don't understand a shortcut, either ask your opponent to explain it or don't accept it.



This is not correct. There was an incorrect ruling invovling Chapin at the GP, but there are never "split rulings".


I think you missunderstood my questions and took them 100% by the word, however it might be that I explained it in the wrong way.

By split rule in the Chapin case, I meant that he called a judge during the play and he judge in favor of Chapin. However, after the match or att some point the judges talked about it and the head judge ruled it otherwise?

The reason for me asking theese questions is that I play a deck that interacts alot with the stack. So to conclude, If I play a spell and my opponent does not say that he uses the CB trigger, that is equal to that he was not using it?

One situation could be that he rather wants to counter my spell with counterspell and that fails due to me having a counter. If he from the beginning did not say he put the CB trigger on the stack, he can not say that he want to use it? If I then object and he claims that it is obvious that it should hit the stack and his thoughts where that I understood it? You understand what I mean?

Another question. If I play a spell with storm, the spell gets triggered by CB. Does this resolve before I get to resolve my storm copies?

[cdr]

By split rule in the Chapin case, I meant that he called a judge during the play and he judge in favor of Chapin. However, after the match or att some point the judges talked about it and the head judge ruled it otherwise?

Judges do make mistakes sometimes. The Chapin call was ruled incorrectly. There is only one correct answer to a rules question.


The reason for me asking theese questions is that I play a deck that interacts alot with the stack. So to conclude, If I play a spell and my opponent does not say that he uses the CB trigger, that is equal to that he was not using it?

If he doesn't say anything, it's equivalent to the CB triggering, resolving, and him choosing not to reveal.


One situation could be that he rather wants to counter my spell with counterspell and that fails due to me having a counter. If he from the beginning did not say he put the CB trigger on the stack, he can not say that he want to use it? If I then object and he claims that it is obvious that it should hit the stack and his thoughts where that I understood it? You understand what I mean?

The CB trigger goes on the stack whether he says anything or not. If you fight a counterspell war, it's still on the stack unless he allows your original spell to resolve or otherwise indicates he forgot about it - at that point you can assume the trigger resolved without him using it.


Another question. If I play a spell with storm, the spell gets triggered by CB. Does this resolve before I get to resolve my storm copies?

Both triggers trigger on you casting the spell, so they'll go on the stack in APNAP order - if it's your turn, your storm trigger will go on the stack first, then the CB trigger. If it's your opponent's turn, vice versa. Either way, the storm trigger will obviously still resolve even if the original spell is countered first.