What is the best combo hate for decks that don't have ?

[arebennian]

There seems to be an ever increasing amount of combo decks, or at least diversitication. Now it could be argued that not all of the decks below are combo decks, but I've just put them all together as:
a) Not winning with creatures (emphasis on the plural)
b) Not attempting to control the gamestate like a classic control or aggro control strategy.
Decks that control the board and then win with a combo finish (Thopter/Painter/Progenitus etc) aren't included, neither are graveyard based decks.

For simplicity sake, if you don't have access to enough blue to warrent playing FOW, and you either don't have discard (or wish to suppliment it) what is the best hate against each deck? Obviously using a couple of different types will help, but we are looking at the best here.
Can such a judgement be made without looking at the deck that the hate will be included in, or the general meta? If not, just suspend reality for a second and join me in the vacuum. Here are some I'm interested in hearing peoples perspectives on. Particularly the savvy pilots of these decks.
There are other reasons why you might use one type of hate over another, but I'd first like to see people's perspectives on what is best against each.


Storm Based Chalice & Null Rod
-Tendrils types (someone care to differentiate them for me?)
- Belcher

From your Hand Fatty Decks = Sphere effects & Peacekeeper
- Sneaky Show
- NO Show
- Other Emrakul 'ta-Da' decks (which don't necessarily follow the same game plan)

Other = different for each
- Elves!
- Aluren
- Solidarity / Spring Tide
- Enchantress
- MUD
- Painter



So, if you are piloting one of these decks, what do you dislike seeing on the other side of the table?


Popular Hate:
- Chalice of the Void
- Null Rod
- Thord of Amethyst (and other sphere effects)
- Mindbreak Trap
- Hatebears (Gaddock/Canonist/Mage/Believer/Peacekeeper)

[wcm8]

Hibernation and Perish for elves and Progenitus. Llawan deals with Merefolk and Progenitus as well. Firespout and Engineered Plague are great versus Elves and other tribal.

Diabolic Edict, Wing Shards, and Karakas deals with Emrakul. You can also try using Ensnaring Bridge, Meekstone, or Noetic Scales. Elephant Grass/Light of Day stop Progenitus, but are pretty narrow unless you want to fight Dredge too.

Harmonic Convergence wrecks Enchantress, just wait until you have enough board pressure. Graveyard hate to deal with Replenish as well. I would only bother with sideboarding for this matchup if this deck is present in your local metagame. Other sweepers like Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives are applicable in more matchups.

I guess I understand the phrasing of your question, but the answer is really deck dependent. What colors are you running? What's the rest of the build look like?

[Kolhell]

I don't think MUD really belongs on there. Sure, a lot of MUD decks use Metalworker + Staff of Domination + a mana dump as a win con, but up until then they run a bevy of control elements such as Lodestone Golem, Tangle Wire, Smokestack, Chalice, 3sphere, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst, etc. As such, I would argue that this deck is control at heart and should be played against accordingly.

Chalice hoses the majority of these decks, and it's my belief that it is the #1 best anti-combo card out there. Nearly every one of these decks has some CMC 1 card that it relies on to set up a win (from wild growth to brainstorm) that without they become unspeakably slow, allowing you to get your shit set up. In addition to this, there are very few decks in the current meta that do not rely on CMC 1 and 2 cards, so it's never a dead draw. The only trouble is if you rely on those cards as well, which is highly likely.

3sphere in the current meta is becoming a little too easy to play around.

Elves falls to traditional Goblin/Merfolk (tribal) hate, so I don't think it ever warrants individual consideration.

Good thread :)

[FieryBalrog]

Wing Shards doesn't deal with Emrakul unless you like losing 6 permanents in the process. Retribution of the Meek is good against the two most relevant fatties.

[Finn]

White has many answers to Emrakul. But I believe that neither Karakas nor anything in White is a proper hoser for both Emrakul and Progenitus any longer. Show and Tell -> Emrakul is terrible against something like Death and Taxes because much of the deck can handle it even before the sideboard (Oblivion Ring, Mangara of Corondor, Goldmeadow Harrier, Karakas). But more recent Emrakul decks are hardcasting it, so sorcery speed is useless in these cases as they get a Time Walk. Since white is far less capable of handling Progenitus, the SB cards have to either focus on just Progenitus or both. The engines that get the creatures into play are all completely different. And all of the dedicated white hate that is good against both Emrakul and Progenitus (after they hit the table) is like Retribution of the Meek - sorcery speed. Every last card.

I have been trying to solve this particular conundrum the past few weeks.

[(nameless one)]

I've been enjoying playing Quinn and I am running two Humility in my main and a set of Leyline of Sanctity on the side.

Humility is a great answer with all these 'combo-creature' decks. The only problem with both of them is that they cost 4 to play and Chanting your opponent at the early turns can only do so much (as it is still tempo loss). As an Elves and Goblins player, a resolved Humility usually means I have to win in 3 turns.

That said, once resolve, both of the mentioned cards are excellent answer to their respective hated deck.

Leyline of Sanctity is a catch all answer for all decks that don't use creatures to win (from Storm to Burn)

[forsmark]

White has many answers to Emrakul. But I believe that neither Karakas nor anything in White is a proper hoser for both Emrakul and Progenitus any longer. Show and Tell -> Emrakul is terrible against something like Death and Taxes because much of the deck can handle it even before the sideboard (Oblivion Ring, Mangara of Corondor, Goldmeadow Harrier, Karakas). But more recent Emrakul decks are hardcasting it, so sorcery speed is useless in these cases as they get a Time Walk. Since white is far less capable of handling Progenitus, the SB cards have to either focus on just Progenitus or both. The engines that get the creatures into play are all completely different. And all of the dedicated white hate that is good against both Emrakul and Progenitus (after they hit the table) is like Retribution of the Meek - sorcery speed. Every last card.

I have been trying to solve this particular conundrum the past few weeks.

You are painfully correct in this. A lot of good sorcery speed hate exists, but not any real instant. I ran Gatherer through a few searchs today and found Harsh Justice. I have no idea if it's any good, but if you have managed to get them to 15 and have 3 lands in play, they basicly can't attack with Emrakul. Yeah, it's probably horrible, but at least it's instant speed.

- forsmark

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Orim's Chant works against several decks.

[(nameless one)]

Orim's Chant works against several decks.

This.

I am trying to learn the art of Chanting someone. I was going to make a thread about that. Maybe I should.

So far, when someone casts an Ad Nauseum or Glimpse of Nature, you might want to Chant them.

Belcher gets trickier but I found that if theyre about to cast a spell that would give them 4 mana, you might want to respond with a Chant.

I could be wrong as I rarely play against Belcher.

I would also love to learn how to stop an Iggy Loop with Chant (with Doomsday shenanigans).

Never really tried Chanting an Enchantress or Aluren Player.

I think Chanting won't work against High Tide-based combo as they will always have that permission back up.

[OurSerratedDust]

I would also love to learn how to stop an Iggy Loop with Chant (with Doomsday shenanigans).


I think Chant in response to IGG is what you're looking for. This way you can get your chant back and use it on them later if you need.

[dahcmai]

I play TES or UB Tendrils and here's what I have found.


Chant is flat devastating. If you toss it in mid combo, it just stalls you right out. There's no way to keep going after it due to Tendrils and ETW being Sorcery speed. All you really need to do is wait until you see a burning wish/Infernal tutor or something like that when it's fairly obvious the finish is coming and toss one in response, that or in response to a Discard effect.

I try to hit people's hands I suspect of having it with a Duress or Thoughtseize to check for oddball things like that so you will more than likely buy a couple of turns off it. Bad pilots will just die on the spot after getting hit by it. Good pilots you will stall out for at least two turns usually. I like to build back up for a double check on the hand again if I see it.

In response to Ad Nauseum, IGG, Burning Wish, or sacrificing of a LED (though they usually retain priority so you have to catch the next spell). Just use common sense and think as if you were playing that deck. Would you cast ETW or Tendrils with the next spell? That's the time to hit them. Double Dark ritual response is a perfect time to strike as it's a sure sign someone is going for it. It may be only two cards, but they are going to huuurrrt for that one.

Wasteland stops the Shelldock kill cold. If you think they might have this, just leave one open the whole game. It stalls more than you think. It's usually enough. I don't even try it if I saw a Wasteland. I rarely play this little trick now since Waste stops it so well.

Don't rely on Gaddock Teeg, he's easy as hell to play around with TES. You can expect to get Grapeshotted out for that guy.

Ethersworn Canonist is trickier to play around, but it can be done. I will bounce that thing usually at the end of someone's turn after I cast a Duress on mine. Good clue. If you're low on life, you really have more to worry about since it's not hard to cast a few artifacts and tendrils you out.

Pyrostatic pillar is another not to rely on. It's good, especially against people who aren't used to it, but it doesn't stop people from just hitting you twice wit two tendrils. You still need to play balls to the wall if you have one out. It just takes longer to set up double tendrils.

Mindbreak Trap sucks. It seems good, but it's not. It's just Duress bait. I didn't even play it in my 43 Lands deck. I played Extirpate over it. Extipate is more annoying when you take a ritual or some other mana, storm would normally like to recur. Extirpate lost a lot of power when Mystical left, but I still think I could find something better than Trap. The trap just means you are going to get Duressed once or twice. It's good if you already have a few other counters like Daze and Force, but for decks that do not have that, it's only annoying.

Leyline is actually decent since it comes out so fast and it's an enchantment making it the hardest of permanents to get rid of. It requires a bounce spell to get rid of so if you can protect it, you only have Wipe away or ETW to worry about.

Those are the things I have ran into and what I thought of them.

Phyreian Revoker is worth trying. I haven't had one dropped on me before, but I can picture getting one dropped on LED being pretty annoying. It's not easy to kill one maindeck and actually gives a small clock that weakens Ad Nauseum slowly. It's probably less expected among players also. I wouldn't board in things for it unless i saw it game 1. It's not real common right now. It's better than people give it credit for.

[(nameless one)]

You mentioned that a good storm pilot would try to stall out for a couple of turns. Also, you said enchantments are the hardest to deal with. Would Runed Halo be effective against a Tendrils deck?

[FieryBalrog]

White has many answers to Emrakul. But I believe that neither Karakas nor anything in White is a proper hoser for both Emrakul and Progenitus any longer. Show and Tell -> Emrakul is terrible against something like Death and Taxes because much of the deck can handle it even before the sideboard (Oblivion Ring, Mangara of Corondor, Goldmeadow Harrier, Karakas). But more recent Emrakul decks are hardcasting it, so sorcery speed is useless in these cases as they get a Time Walk.

Your answer to Emrakul and Progenitus doesn't have to be instant speed. The only time you need that is vs the newly popular Shelldrazi Doomsday decks; and in that case you have Wasteland, Karakas and Mangara already. At that point running super niche cards just to increase the % a tiny bit doesn't seem worth it. Progenitus never requires an instant speed answer. The Storm decks with a Shelldrazi Doomsday package are much more threatening because Emrakul is just a backup vs you, but it's just a bad storm matchup more than anything else.

[Hopo]

You mentioned that a good storm pilot would try to stall out for a couple of turns. Also, you said enchantments are the hardest to deal with. Would Runed Halo be effective against a Tendrils deck?

Runed Halo is not usable against combo at all, as Tendrils is the only card you can name and it does nothing to prevent comboing. It is totally useless after they Ad Nauseam 20 cards to their hands. Winning after that is plain trivial if there's even a single bounce spell in the deck.

If you really want to win storm combo without playing blue, Leyline of Sanctity combined with Mindbreak Trap/Orim's Chant/Duress is good. That is a lot of slots, though.

[Deady]

Emrakul/Progenitus-> Forcefield.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Emrakul/Progenitus-> Forcefield.

How're you getting 6 more permanants a turn against Emrakukl?

[Finn]

Hopo, that's pretty funny...Mindbreak Trap...Especially after the reasoning you provided for disliking Runed Halo. You will simply get Duressed or Chanted in the same way the Halo gets bounced. Thank you for your insight.

As a matter of fact, I myself am using Runed Halo since it also is helpful against Progenitals and a number of random decks. It is on the weak side, true. But it makes sense in my sb nonetheless. And you can't play the game feeling certain that the opponent has all the answers. Even Ad Nauseam decks are not guaranteed to have the proper hate in hand following the big draw.

The fact is that to beat storm combo with a nonblue deck, you need to get lucky and that is that. Did you get two pieces of relevant hate in your opening hand? If so, and if it you don't end up discarding them, you have a decent chance to win. If not, you will likely lose.

[Pulp_Fiction]

The hate greatly depends on the deck. But in general, to beat a competent combo player you need multiples of stuff to reliably stop combo. One card in general that shuts all combo down and needs to be answered is Null Rod. Now if that is all you have and no clock to go with it .... you are going to lose. Trinisphere is the other card I hate seeing, especially if I kept a one lander. 3Sphere doesn't stall for long though unless for some reason I stall on lands.

Hating on storm combo is a lot like hating on dredge, sometimes the hate randomly get there, but usually you need multiple answers to reliably stop the deck. With the Shelldock plan it becomes even harder, especially if you draw multiple hate pieces and no pressure. Most of the cards mentioned are terrible against DDFT and TES. Teeg is better than Cannonist because it forces them to bounce rather than disenchant/bounce. The white Leyline is KILLER against Belcher and Spring Tide but .... everything else it sucks. Let me set the scenario: you mull to 5-6 trying to find the Leyline and generally keep a lackluster hand; combo cantrips and makes 10-16 goblins on turns 1-3. You found your hate but ... so. Now multiple leylines is really good against ANT since it forces them to have Echoing Truth rather than Chain, but against decks w Burning Wish its not so good.

Plays like turn 1 Moon, Chalice @0 are crippling but a single moon is not that good, especially on the draw. And Moons are rarely good by themselves unless the combo player is totally unprepared or has a sub-par hand. Multiples of things are what beat combo. Mindbreak Trap falls into the same category as chants, they just get Duressed. They have the added benefit of turning off IGG but thats really it. In general there is no answer it just depends on what deck you are playing, make sure that whatever dedicated slots you have towards combo hate apply to other matchups as well. Like when I play Aggro Loam I run the white leylines because they have added benefits, playing Mindbreak Trap is 2 narrow, the white leyline is applicable in other matchups as well. Or Zoo running Teeg since he is good against CB and other shit as well. Because unless you have 6-8 dedicated slots to the combo matchup you really aren't helping your chances much and even then you can still lose to broken ass combo hands.

[Pulp_Fiction]

The hate greatly depends on the deck. But in general, to beat a competent combo player you need multiples of stuff to reliably stop combo. One card in general that shuts all combo down and needs to be answered is Null Rod. Now if that is all you have and no clock to go with it .... you are going to lose. Trinisphere is the other card I hate seeing, especially if I kept a one lander. 3Sphere doesn't stall for long though unless for some reason I stall on lands.

Hating on storm combo is a lot like hating on dredge, sometimes the hate randomly get there, but usually you need multiple answers to reliably stop the deck. With the Shelldock plan it becomes even harder, especially if you draw multiple hate pieces and no pressure. Most of the cards mentioned are terrible against DDFT and TES. Teeg is better than Cannonist because it forces them to bounce rather than disenchant/bounce. The white Leyline is KILLER against Belcher and Spring Tide but .... everything else it sucks. Let me set the scenario: you mull to 5-6 trying to find the Leyline and generally keep a lackluster hand; combo cantrips and makes 10-16 goblins on turns 1-3. You found your hate but ... so. Now multiple leylines is really good against ANT since it forces them to have Echoing Truth rather than Chain, but against decks w Burning Wish its not so good.

Plays like turn 1 Moon, Chalice @0 are crippling but a single moon is not that good, especially on the draw. And Moons are rarely good by themselves unless the combo player is totally unprepared or has a sub-par hand. Multiples of things are what beat combo. Mindbreak Trap falls into the same category as chants, they just get Duressed. They have the added benefit of turning off IGG but thats really it. In general there is no answer it just depends on what deck you are playing, make sure that whatever dedicated slots you have towards combo hate apply to other matchups as well. Like when I play Aggro Loam I run the white leylines because they have added benefits, playing Mindbreak Trap is 2 narrow, the white leyline is applicable in other matchups as well. Or Zoo running Teeg since he is good against CB and other shit as well. Because unless you have 6-8 dedicated slots to the combo matchup you really aren't helping your chances much and even then you can still lose to broken ass combo hands.

[dahcmai]

I only mentioned it's tougher to deal with permanents than spells due to the fact that if you look at any good Tendrils list, they all have a few things in common. Around 4-8 Discard spells and 1-3 Bounce spells. Bounce is at a premium in them. It's a catch all, but hitting people with multiple duress effects is a hell of a lot easier than having multiple bounce effects.

Pulp Fiction has it right. It does take more of a combination of hate to beat combo.



Totally forgot about Chalice too. I hate that thing. Luckily not many people play it anymore.

[Hopo]

Hopo, that's pretty funny...Mindbreak Trap...Especially after the reasoning you provided for disliking Runed Halo. You will simply get Duressed or Chanted in the same way the Halo gets bounced. Thank you for your insight.

You apparently didn't catch that I especially mentioned "Leyline of Sanctity combined with Mindbreak Trap." It should make more sense now to you. I can explain a bit further since I falsely thought this was pretty obvious: leyline keeps you safe from discard and tendrils. The combo player therefore needs a bounce and a discard to go off, and they might not even bother with the discard, depending on your tells, clock etc. This takes a whopping 4-8 SB slots, but I guess there's no way around that.

If I compare Runed Halo to any other option, I find it lacking. It suffers from the same problems as the terrible fish players used to when playing against combo: naming tendrils or Brainfreeze with Meddling Mage when you should be naming LEDs, rituals, wishes or tutors. It in no way keeps the opponent from winning unless some bad luck is involved in their end. The only thing that keeps me sometimes thinking of halo is that it can do wonders in some other matchups, like yourself mentioned.

[Muradin]

I think Meddling Mage is the ultimate combo hate card if you are good at legacy. He helps you with your clock and is useful against every combo deck when naming the right cards. Furthermore he pitches to FoW.

For example the old landstill decks always had:

4 Plague
4 Meddling Mage
4 GY removal
3 Wish targets

this is what was one of the strongest sideboards of all times because it covered every deck that was popular / difficult to beat for landstill at that time while running cards that are very powerful on their own and useful in several different matchups.

[Finn]

Yes, Hopo. We are all apparently saying the same thing then.

[Admiral_Arzar]

The only real advice I can give for hate against Storm is to diversify your hate. The more different types you have, the harder it is to play around it.

Against Shelldock Isle, as has been mentioned, Wasteland is the best answer. Pithing Needle is pretty good as well, although it can be bounced easily. Or you can run craziness like Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, or things that tap guys (Whipcorder or whatever). Peacekeeper can also be good, and a kicked Orim's Chant can stall you a turn to use sorcery-speed removal.

[GradStudentGuy]

I am not sure if this is a real hate card but my friend's MUC deck runs Extract against storm variants. A few Tendrils list have exactly 1 tendrils in the deck and it is a complete shuts it down when it happens.

[bakofried]

It seems poor against TES. They would have a good out in Burning Wish.

[Drizztjah]

How good is In the Eye of Chaos against High Tide decks? It seems quite devastating to me, but I don't have the experience to be sure.

[Kolhell]

re: In the Eye of Chaos, I've run Nether Void against High Tide with significant success, and they seem about the same to me. Just be aware that as soon as they hit 8 mana it's going to get Repealed at the end of your turn so they can go off during theirs.