[PRIMER] Spiral Tide

[Squirrel]

Hey Guys
Just wanna know, which List is the best a beginner (like me) should start with?

[RexFTW]

If you are a magic beginner this is not a good deck to start with. The things you learn playing it do not transfer over to other decks well and are very conceptually advanced. I would recommend Merefolk (cheap) or Zoo (more expensive) to a new player.

The answer to your question:
The lists with Candelabra of Tawnos cost much more $ but are also far more likely to win on the third turn against combo and aggro decks.

The lists with mental misstep and pact of negation instead of candelabra can use those to fight opposing counterspells, so they are easier to play against blue decks but are slower against aggro and combo. They also cost about $1000 less.

[Squirrel]

If you are a magic beginner this is not a good deck to start with. The things you learn playing it do not transfer over to other decks well and are very conceptually advanced. I would recommend Merefolk (cheap) or Zoo (more expensive) to a new player.



No, sry, my bad, im new to this Deck.I played other decks before (Merfolk, Dredge, Standstill-Decks ,...in Tournaments, many other decks with my Legacyfriends) im only new to this hightide-based decks.
So please tell me if there is a list a newbie to Spring Tide ( not Legacy) should start with.
Excuse my bad English ;)

[planeswalkerzen]

Hey Guys,

So I've kind of been checking diffrent lists and testing a bit myself. This is my current build. Any help etc would be awesome!

Protection:
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Pact of Negation

Combo:
4 High Tide
4 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
1 Brain Freeze

Tutor/Card Draw:
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Ponder
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish

Lands:
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
12 Island

Sideboard:
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Snap
2 Wipe Away
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pact of Negation
2 Flusterstorm

All help will be appreciated :D

[Piceli89]

What's the generaln train of tought about cutting Cloud of Faeries from the maindeck? It's the best untapper we can play against Merfolk, since it dodges Daze and Cursecatcher; it also cycles in search of a land, can hide counters in conjunction with Brainstorm (this is relevant against ANT and Dredge), and allows to not fizzle when you're left with 2 mana whil comboing, where Turnabout would fail. Also, it seems to me that 4 Turnabouts are too much, they're easily blanked by Daze in the combo as well as when used for fog/gigadrowse purposes; and havng double Turnabout is kinda dead, baring delaying on purpose the game.
Cloud of Faeries also slightly accelerates the possibility to combo turn 3, which is relevant against fast aggro (Zoo with a lot of burn).

[RexFTW]

A lot of people have been running only 5 untappers (3 got cut for MM). I do not agree with this plan and run 7 + MOM personally. (3 Turnabout, 4 candles)

I feel like less untappers is only good against blue decks. Any other deck you want to be comboing off faster and more untappers increases your chances of going off on turn 3.

Dont forget that turnabout can target opponents to tap their lands, trinispheres and divining tops.

[planeswalkerzen]

Actually we all run 8+. 4 Turnabout and 4 Time Spirals....

[RexFTW]

Interesting deck analysis here:
http://mtgstats.com/ArchetypeDetail.aspx?ArchetypeID=292



using timspiral as an untapper is risky against decks playing instants.

[RexFTW]

@mistercakes
Why do you play city of solitude instead of silence or autums veil or abeyance or xantid swarm or defense grid?



Saw a very interesting sideboard:
Sideboard
15 cards
1 A?ther Spellbomb
1 Brain Freeze
2 Cunning Wish
1 Echoing Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Grindstone
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mindbreak Trap
4 Painter's Servant

[mistercakes]

i was just testing out city of solitude. i like it more than the 1 drops b/c of mental misstep. abeyance is cool, but you also need to cast it prior to going off the same turn, city you can just drop on turn 3 and if they dont have an answer the game is over. defense grid is good but they can still counter your stuff if they are smart with their lands (esp if they have islands)

i have since cut them though and have been running 2 pact of negation and 4 mental misstep main. (there's a ton of blue on modo, so countering their brainstorms is really strong)

[RexFTW]

If you drop it turn 3 and they have no counter, they probably would have no counter turn 4 either. I guess they could have mental misstep or flusterstorm or something that could not target the city of solitude, or something after the spiral.


Saw a very interesting sideboard:
Sideboard
15 cards
1 A?ther Spellbomb
1 Brain Freeze
2 Cunning Wish
1 Echoing Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Grindstone
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mindbreak Trap
4 Painter's Servant

Thinks looks like an interesting way to avoid the problem of giving your opponent 7 new counterspells each time you play timespiral.
-4 timespiral
-4 candelabra of tawnos
-3 cunning wish
+3 intuition
+4 painter's servant
+4 grindstone



Another hilarious idea is to just play gin gitaxis. I mean, "ill draw 7 on my end step, then combo you out" doesnt seem bad. Worst case you drew 7 and you have a blocker. Then win with your sorcery speed next turn!




Interesting note:
LSV has spellsnare in his sideboard.

[RexFTW]

Here is the math behind choosing different versions:

Candelabra Build:
Untappers: 11 (4 merchant scroll, 3 turnabout, 4 candelabra)
High Tides: 8 (4 merchant scroll, 4 High Tide)
Time Spiral: 5 (4 Timespiral, 1 MOM)
Counters: 8 (4 Force, 4 merchant scroll)
island: 18

MM Build:
Untappers: 7 (4 merchant scroll, 3 turnabout)
High Tides: 8 (4 merchant scroll, 4 High Tide)
Time Spiral: 4 (4 Timespiral)
Counters: 15 (4 force, 4 MM, 4 merchant scroll, 1 Pact of Negation)


There are 2 basic scenarios:
(1) Aggro and combo. You would like to combo on turn 3 here. Protection is almost irrelevant.
(2) Force of will decks. You would like to combo on turn 4 with protection.


Case 1: Aggro and Combo
The optimal turn 3 is 3 islands in play, with a hand containing atleast 1 untapper, 1 High Tide and 1 Time Spiral.

Candelabra Build: 45.71%
MM Build: 36.66%

Case 2a: Blue Decks
You would like to have the combo by turn 4 with atleast one counterspell for protection.

Candelabra Build: 59.21%
MM Build: 54.51%

Case 2b: Blue Decks, 2 counters
You would like to have the combo by turn 4 with atleast two counterspell for protection.

Candelabra Build: 43.96%
MM Build: 52.52%

Case 3b: Blue Decks, 3 counters
You would like to have the combo and 4 lands by turn 4 with atleast three counterspell for protection.

Candelabra Build: 22.90%
MM Build: 45.78%


Also, lets look at the opponents chances of drawing counters by turn 4:


If the opponent plays 20 counters in their deck, they have a 59% chance to have 4 counters.
If the opponent plays 15 counters, they have a 60% chance to have 3 counters.
If the opponent plays 10 counters, they have a 62% chance to have 2 counters.
If the opponent plays 8 counters (4 FOW, 4MM), they have a 48% chance to have 2 counters.
If the opponent plays 4 counters (4 FOW), they have a 59% chance to have 1 counter.
(These chances include unkeepable hands like 0 lands)


Analysis:
The deck sporting more conterspells (MM Build) is much better against decks with heavy amounts of counters. Opponents playing 15 or more counters are likely to have 3 of them. In this case the MM build has a significant advantage of ~23% and the candelabra build has very little chance of winning on turn 4 (~23%). However it should be noted that untap effects do help combat the "soft" counters by allowing you to pay the additional mana.

The Candelabra build holds a solid 10% advantage to combo on the third turn against decks that want to race as well as a slight advantage against decks with only light counter support. The latter is somewhat suprising, probably due to the addition of a 5th win condition in Mind Over Matter.

What can we learn?
MM Decks:
You should probably play a lot of Snap s in the sideboard. This will greatly improve the likelyhood of comboing on turn 2, and delay the aggro deck's plan. The commitment to maindeck counters should help battle other combo decks. If you are splashing green you could also consider a single Moment's Peace to wish for but this will not help against the hatebears that you are likely to encounter in the later games.
You may want to side OUT some counters when not facing decks with a heavy commitment to blue.

Candelabra Decks:
Have a significant sideboard plan against blue heavy decks. Side in several Pact of Negation, MM or defense grids. You may want to side out a single force to wish for and bring in all of your pact of negations. Cards like snap can catch your opponent off guard when he is using mana taxing effects. Mindbreak trap is viable during a counter war.



How the math was done: (Skip if you dont care)
This only calculates the chances to draw the cards listed in each case. It does not deal with post spiral math.
These numbers are only approximations
The chances of drawing the cards needed to combo by the specified turn is done using Hypergeometric distributions. Mulligains are not taken into account.
The distribution accounts for playing a single cantrip on turn 1 to see 3 additional cards if comboing on turn 3 or 2 cantrips (+6 cards) for turn 4.
The distribution does not take out merchant scrolls from other categories if they are used for the first.
The distribution does not take into account the possibility of playing multiple cantrips on the second turn instead of needing a merchant scroll or the chances of having a shuffle after a brainstorm.
The numbers do not take into account drawing multiple merchant scrolls.
These calculations do not count a difference between mental misstep and force of will. They both count as "counterspells".

[(nameless one)]

Would Reality Spasm be a good alternative to Candelabra or are you better of with just Turnabout when it comes to untappers?

[Diprivan]

Would Reality Spasm be a good alternative to Candelabra or are you better of with just Turnabout when it comes to untappers?

4 spirals + 4 turnabout (or 4 spiral + 3 turnabout + 3 cunning wish) has been plenty for me. You have scroll for it too. Further than that, reality spasm really isn't of the same power level as spiral and turnabout.

[RexFTW]

The real power level of Candelabra comes from its interaction with Mind over Matter and Turnabout. The best replacement is cloud of faeries if you want a budget version.

[Diprivan]

So, i'm giving this pile a spin on cockatrice and i like it till now. I normally play TES and thought about burning wish in this deck. A big plus of this deck is its ability to go of with only 2 cards: tide + spiral, burning wish finds our spiral and gives acces to etw as an alternative win condition. I played solidarity too and never really liked lists that splashed as wasteland is a real thread to that deck. This deck too needs its lands so probably this is just a bad idea, but I wondered it this idea was discussed/dismissed before.

[ScatmanX]

So, i'm giving this pile a spin on cockatrice and i like it till now. I normally play TES and thought about burning wish in this deck. A big plus of this deck is its ability to go of with only 2 cards: tide + spiral, burning wish finds our spiral and gives acces to etw as an alternative win condition. I played solidarity too and never really liked lists that splashed as wasteland is a real thread to that deck. This deck too needs its lands so probably this is just a bad idea, but I wondered it this idea was discussed/dismissed before.
Here you go: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20789_Time_Spiral_Entomb_Glimpse_of_Nature_and_Vengevine_in_Legacy.html

I only tested the G splash, and even that wasn't worth it due to Wastelands.

[RexFTW]

Intuition finds time spiral at instant speed and is on color. This seems like a much better plan.

[AnwarA101]

Would Reality Spasm be a good alternative to Candelabra or are you better of with just Turnabout when it comes to untappers?

Reality Spasm costs 5 mana to untap 3 lands and 6 mana to untap 4 lands. Its an expensive Turnabout, but it actually works better with Candelabra since you can untap your lands and Candelabra all at once. Cloud of Faeries lets you cast a turn 3 Time Spiral with 3 lands, High Tide, and Cloud of Faeries. I don't think that Reality Spasm is a good replacement for Candelabra since it doesn't help you combo on turn 3. Cloud of Faeries seems like the best you can do without Candelabra.

[RexFTW]

Reality Spasm costs 5 mana to untap 3 lands and 6 mana to untap 4 lands. Its an expensive Turnabout, but it actually works better with Candelabra since you can untap your lands and Candelabra all at once. Cloud of Faeries lets you cast a turn 3 Time Spiral with 3 lands, High Tide, and Cloud of Faeries. I don't think that Reality Spasm is a good replacement for Candelabra since it doesn't help you combo on turn 3. Cloud of Faeries seems like the best you can do without Candelabra.

When you turnabout your candles, you generally are making 30-60 mana. I dont think the extra 10 from spasm is so significant at that point.

[AnwarA101]

When you turnabout your candles, you generally are making 30-60 mana. I dont think the extra 10 from spasm is so significant at that point.

Its true that casting Turnabout or Reality Spasm when you are targeting your candles doesn't make much difference, but I thought your original post was about using Reality Spasm as a replacement for Candelabra. If you play a list with Turnabouts and Spasms it just won't be able to go off as often as turn 3, but maybe that's better than Cloud of Faeries which becomes much worse after turn 3.

Did I misconstrue your original post about Reality Spasm?

[RexFTW]

I dont think reality spasm is good.

Cloud + Snap makes a significant amount of mana late though.

[TheRedBaron]

Reality Spasm = Turnabout in efficiency only if X = 2

This card is only remotely good if you have gone off already, in which case, it's win-more anyhow.

[mistercakes]

did anyone see this guy's list?

Legacy Daily #2586703

DoctorPenick (3-1) (not sure if he posts on here)

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Cunning Wish
3 Force of Will
3 High Tide
3 Meditate
3 Mental Misstep
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Pact of Negation
3 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
+6 fetch +12 island


he basically cut 1 high tide, 1 fow, and 1 mental misstep from the list i have been playing with, and added 3 candelabra back in. now i like this a lot b/c i only own 3 candelabra.

his sb was:

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Force of Will
1 High Tide
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Mental Misstep
1 Pact of Negation
4 Snap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout

now, i understand that snap is a very good card, but how do you side in 3, or maybe even all 4? what comes out here?

also i noticed there's no way to deal with chalice other than 1 echoing truth, and no way of dealing with emrakul at all.

the cards i've been using are either rebuild or hurkyl's recall, or curfew for emrakul

maybe that's where i always screw up with this deck (siding out stuff)
also how frequently is it worth it to get the intuition? I'm guessing it's really only relevant to intuition for time spiral, but at that point you already need 12 mana (3 to wish, 3 to intuition, and 6 to spiral)

maybe i'm a bit naive about this. could you guys help me out here :)

[RexFTW]

wish for intuition is post spiral fizzle protect

[Chikenbok]

did anyone see this guy's list?

Legacy Daily #2586703

DoctorPenick (3-1) (not sure if he posts on here)

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Cunning Wish
3 Force of Will
3 High Tide
3 Meditate
3 Mental Misstep
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Pact of Negation
3 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
+6 fetch +12 island


he basically cut 1 high tide, 1 fow, and 1 mental misstep from the list i have been playing with, and added 3 candelabra back in. now i like this a lot b/c i only own 3 candelabra.

his sb was:

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Force of Will
1 High Tide
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Mental Misstep
1 Pact of Negation
4 Snap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout

now, i understand that snap is a very good card, but how do you side in 3, or maybe even all 4? what comes out here?

also i noticed there's no way to deal with chalice other than 1 echoing truth, and no way of dealing with emrakul at all.

the cards i've been using are either rebuild or hurkyl's recall, or curfew for emrakul

maybe that's where i always screw up with this deck (siding out stuff)
also how frequently is it worth it to get the intuition? I'm guessing it's really only relevant to intuition for time spiral, but at that point you already need 12 mana (3 to wish, 3 to intuition, and 6 to spiral)

maybe i'm a bit naive about this. could you guys help me out here :)

I guess my only problem with the list is running 3 Ponder and 3 Preordain. I suppose that untapping is pretty awesome.. when you can't find your business. I've recently been playing with 4 FoW, 3 Misstep, and 2 pact and I'm considering switching to 2 Misstep and 3 pact. I only really want counterspells when attempting to go off, otherwise, not sure I care about the turn 1 nacatl.

The board looks pretty standard but the 4x Snap makes it seem the player is dealing with far more problematic creatures than with other things (I've replaced the Snaps with sPierces in my board). But yes, rebuild and recall are pretty standard wish targets. I don't play an intuition in my board but it seems like an interesting choice to grab if a spiral does fizzle, I'll give it a try.

[Koby]

Is there an agreed upon list that doesn't use Candelabra? The lists in the opening post seem a bit out of date, and there's a healthy discussion regarding the use of which maindeck counterspells to use.

If I understand correctly, this is the core of the deck:

19 Land
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
3 Ponder
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Turnabout
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Force of Will
3 Meditate
2 Cunning Wish

Which gives us 55 cards.

I'm thinking of playing
2 Mental Misstep
1 Flusterstorm
1 Intuition
1 Brainfreeze

Sideboard:
2 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Snap
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brainfreeze
1 Misdirection/Divert
1 Meditate
3 open slots

Any thoughts on this list?

[RexFTW]

Is there an agreed upon list that doesn't use Candelabra? The lists in the opening post seem a bit out of date, and there's a healthy discussion regarding the use of which maindeck counterspells to use.

If I understand correctly, this is the core of the deck:

19 Land
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
3 Ponder
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Turnabout
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Force of Will
3 Meditate
2 Cunning Wish

Which gives us 55 cards.

I'm thinking of playing
2 Mental Misstep
1 Flusterstorm
1 Intuition
1 Brainfreeze

Sideboard:
2 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Snap
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brainfreeze
1 Misdirection/Divert
1 Meditate
3 open slots

Any thoughts on this list?

Maindeck:
-1 land (18 is the accepted optimal amount)
+1 Intuition

-1 Preordain
+1 Ponder (it is much better. After you play 100 games with the deck you will understand why.)

-1 Preordain
+1 win condition (BF or BSZ to merchant scroll for)

RE the remaining 4 slots:
see post # 512 on the previous page. It is a very detailed breakdown of the impact of those last 5 cards.

Your sideboard should contain atleast 4 cards for each purpose (although they may be slightly different) plus wish targets. This allows you to intuition after siding in 3 and cunning wish for the 4th.

I would have atleast:
4 Bounce
4 Counterspells
1 untapper(turnabout)
1 intuition
1 meditate
1 brain freeze
3 "silver bullets"

[meow]

hi,

i used to play spring tide some time ago and as i saw the deck was improving to spiral tide i'm reading some on it could some of you explain me why Retraced Image disapeared form the lists it seemed like a good card here?

And what about Gitaxian Probe should it get a place here?

[DemonicTutor]

hi,

i used to play spring tide some time ago and as i saw the deck was improving to spiral tide i'm reading some on it could some of you explain me why Retraced Image disapeared form the lists it seemed like a good card here?

And what about Gitaxian Probe should it get a place here?

Hi,

About Retraced Image, it's cool go off at Turn 2, but I think it has been removed 'cause the're some problems:

1. Retraced has the condition you need at least 2 lands in the opening hand, so if you draw a hand 4 ex. cantrip, cantrip, land, retraced, time spiral, hide tide, merchant schroll, this is absolutely unseful because each land you'd draw on your turn you're going to put on battlefield.
2. Awful card at top deck.
3. When you go off with Time Spiral, sometimes you'd draw fetches, so you couldn't play it.
4. Mental Misstep

Anyway, lucky players who can play Candelabra they don't really care if they should counter Mental Misstep because the power between both card are unequalable.

About Gitaxian Probe, I still prefer classic cantrips and counters, because I think the core deck has a little bit margin of changes. I wouldn't say you that is a bad option, at least you can view if opp. has no counters to go off.

[ScatmanX]

Report from a 66 man tournament 31-July-2011
7 Rounds +top8 for Nationals.
This is what I signed up:

4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand (should be 2 or 3)
7 Island
7 Snow-Covered Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
3 Impulse
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
2 Meditate
4 Turnabout
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

3 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Mental Misstep

SB:
3 Spell Pierce
3 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Hurilk’s Recall
1 Brain Freeze
2 Pact of Negation (Should have 1 Mindbreak Trap)
1 Blue Sun’s Zenith
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Surgical Extraction

Match 1- GW MaverickProg – Inseto

Game 1- I’m on the draw with High Tide, Time Spiral, Scroll, 2 Islands, Impulse and Wish. My next 2 draws and Impulse don’t find me my 3rd land, while my opponent accelerated his T1, into a T or 3 MirranCrusader, and the Progenitus. I don’t draw the 3rd lçand and die.

Game 2 – Went a little better, but the 3rd land took a while to appear tôo. He has the W Leyline. He Zeniths for Gaddock. I realise I can try to GO off without Spiral, since I had 2 Tides and 2 Meditates. Unfortunately, I take forever to find more lands, while he Stoneforges a B/G Sword (thanks god people are not playing UR anymore). He hits me twice with it. I end up discarding a Meditate and something else. 2 High Tides, a Snap, and a Spiral later, I win.

Game 3 – He forggets to drop Leyline, not that it would have mattered. On my turn 5 or 6, I have 3 lands into play, and decide to GO for it. 3 High Tides, a Snap, and Maditate + Brainstorm were enough for me to win.
1-0

Game 2 – UBG Landstill

Game 1 – He leads with Tropical, me with Island. He plays Sea and Standstill. I proceed to drop 3 more lands, while he doesen’t. I eot a Cunning Wish, which he counters. My turn I Impulse for an Island, but don’t find one. The I Scroll, which he Dazes. He then plays another Standstill. 2 turns later I GO off with 3 protecs, and draw a good 7.

Game 2 – We both cantrip. He hit me 2 or 3 times with Factory, then drops BoB. I let it resolve. Next turn he drops Jace and cast Duress, which I Misstep. He is tapped out, so I go for the kill my turn, and resolve a Time Spiral and win.
2-0

Game 3 – Burn
Game 1 – He Burns me a lot, while I draw into some garbage. His T4 eot I Wish for a Pierce (he had 2 lands and a suspended Rift Bolt, and 2 cards in hand). His turn he tapps his lands, and Rift resolves. My turn (I’m at 4) I Tide+Spiral.He doesen’t draw a Fireblast, and I win.

Game 2 – He mulls to 5. I FoW the 3/3 dude, and He resolves another one next turn, and Flamebreaks, tapping out. I Tide+Spiral, but draw into garbage, and pass the turn. I MM something, FoW something, and Pierce something. My turn I try to find a Spiral or something after 2 Tides +Scroll, but find nothing…

Game 3 – This one was harsh. On my 4th turn I guess I had to go for it unprotected. I cast 2 Tides and Spiral with 4 lands, and it resolves. I’m at low life, but he only finds a ReB, which I play around, and manage to win after Zenithing myself for 20.
3-0

Game 4 – UGR Thresh– Kizzy

Game 1 – He drops lands for the first 6 turns, and passes. I sculpt. With 6 lands, and 7 cards (2 Tide, 2 Spiral, Pact, FoW and U card) I try. 2 Tides resolve, and I play Spiral. He floats 12 mana, and Counterspell it. I Pact. He FoW. I FoW. He Missdirection. Spiral is countered. With 7 mana floating, I cast the 2nd Spiral, and it resolves. I say I wan to declare attackers, and he cast Cunning Wish. I let It resolve, and he Brain Freezes me. For 36 or something. Luckly I had a Spiral in my hand, use it, and win after a good 7.

Game 2- Kind of alike. With 5 lands I Turnabout him eot, which He FoWs. I then play Tide and Spiral, whith 3 protecs up, and He let it resolve. Unfortunately, I draw garbage, and scoop, to get a shot at the next one.

Game 3 – I choose to draw first (going off with 7 cards seems better than with 6) Turn 3 he drops a Quirion Dryad, and beats me a few times, until time is called. I have to go off on the 4th additional turn. Spiral resolves after I empty my hand with 3 protecs, and a Turnabout his EoT, that he countered. We draw 7, and I make a couple of mistakes.1st I Scroll for Wish (had another in hand), and then Scroll for Turnabout (should be Pact), then I Meditate, and he responds with Brainstorm. I respond with Wish and MM it (another Mistake) Meditate draw into nothing usefull, so I Wish for Brain Freeze, and cast it. He plays Stifle. I Pact. He Missdirection. I FoW. Don’t remember IF there was another counter, but hedies his next draw phase.
4-0
(learned something usefull after this match. If your opponent Misdirection your Turnabout, you can’t let he say what he whants to target with it (if you have any responses) because he only does that after the spell resolves. Then, even if it resolves and he target himself, you are the controller of the spell, so you decide what it is going to do, so, it is completely useless)

Match 5 – TES – Shimi

Game 1 - I mull and Preordain tino 2 Missteps. He Mox+Duress, let it resolve and He takes MM. I draw MM and Scroll for FoW. He Mox + Gemstone, and cast Orim, that get MM’d and leaves me with 3 cards. He goes for it, and I have the Pitch. Some 3-4 turns later, I combo him.

Game 2 – He Duress me, seing lands, 2 Turnabout, MM and Preordain, taking MM. I Preordain, and he Ponder. I draw, and he Orims, I MM. He goes for it, I FoW. Pretty lucky here. 2 or 3 turns later, again, He dies.
5-0

Match 6 – UBG Landstill – Irineu
ID
If I’d have known He was Landstill, I’d have played it of. Now, if I win the next one, I finish 1st.
5-half

Match 7 – GW Maverick – Roland
Game 1 – Land pass for him. I have 2 Lands, MM, FoW, Pact, 2 Impulse. He cast DryadT2. I try to Impulse his 3rd EoT, he cast Aven Mindscensor, which I FoW. Impulse+Drawstep+Impulse do not find me my 3rd land drop. He cast Stoneforge, which I FoW, and Qasali. I Preordain and find a land. He hits me for the next 4 turns, while I found lands. Never drew Turnabout/Scroll/Spiral, and died with Misstep, Tide and Wish on my hand.

Game 2 – I mull a no Lander into 3 lands, Tide, Zenith and Snap. He Zeniths T1, then Zeniths T2 for Gaddock. His T3 he casts Sylvan Safekeeper. I have 3 lands into play, and 2 in my hand, along with the same cards. I Tide, Snap and Zenith me for 3, drawing Rebuild, Brainstorm and Wish. He replays Tegg. I draw a FoW. I BS into lands, and shuffle them. He plays Relicary. I Wish for Wipe Away, and pass back without action. He Tutors for Cannonist. I let it resolve, since he had mana to replay Tegg again, and I’d be cold to it. So I Rebuild eot, and have to Wipe Away Tegg my upkeep due to him protecting it. I draw crap again, and pass the turn with 6 lands into play, FoW, Tide and lands in my hand, just to die his turn.
5-1-1

Guess that did not turned out the way I expected, but sometimes the decl simply spits on your face. Better luck next time.

[lebarion]

Congratulations, Scat!
It's been a while since I've played this IRL, but in MWS I'm playtesting a much more Brain Freeze-oriented version, and I'm pretty happy with it.
I guess your current version also usually kills with BF, right? Do you ever find this to be a problem?
And what about the cantrips? Why Preordains and Impulses and not Ponders? (I'm currently using this same configuration, but wanted to know your opinion).

[ScatmanX]

I guess your current version also usually kills with BF, right? Do you ever find this to be a problem?
It usually kills with BF, right, but the MD Zenith is way better. Several times, after Spiral, I BSZ'd me for 20sh cards, and won from there.


And what about the cantrips? Why Preordains and Impulses and not Ponders? (I'm currently using this same configuration, but wanted to know your opinion).
I guess that, in this version, Ponder might be better than Preordain. Will be trying that.
Impulse, on the other hand, was great. Being able to respond your opponent's counterspells with Impulse, into Meditate, into Turnabout, into Wish... is just awesome. It makes you play more like Solidarity after Spiral, which was fantastic.

[RexFTW]

why do you put garbage in you deck?

[Pich]

Anyone still playing the deck? Inaki?

[egosum]

I'm stick with it, though I 'm not playing tournamnets lately due to lack of time. I know some people still toying with it but with not great results because they are not regular players (just try to play the deck in a given tournament). The list I'm playing is the same from BoM V (only changing the Spell Pierce in the Sideboard for Flusterstorm according to the meta I expect).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Final Fortune]

Sorry if this is an odd question, but is there a reason you guys are playing Force of Will instead of Pact of Negation? With Counterbalance no where to be found and Storm combo being a dark horse, I just don't see a reason to sacrifice CA and have a worse Merchant Scroll target in the MD? As soon as Storm combo sees us play an Island, they are going to assume we play Force of Will anyway so the threat of having Force of Will is pretty much always there regardless and we can SB in the Flutterstorms to shore up the match.

[planeswalkerzen]

Force of Will can stop things such as Thouhgtseize, Hymm to Tourach, Combo etc. With pact, you will die unless you can pay 5, in which most situations where u can comfortably paying 5 in your upkeep, you should have comboed off by then or your opponent should have won

[Final Fortune]

With the exception of Hymn to Tourach, using Force of Will to counter their disruption is a losing proposition and considering BANT isn't even playing Force of Will can't hope to retain parity either.

[planeswalkerzen]

Force of Will is just more safe. Also Pact is bad on every other turn apart from the turn your comboing or post turn 5.

[egosum]

There are not few situations where you have to adopt the control role in the early game. And this, w/p FoW is not possible. Remember spiral tide ia not a ritual combo deck.

Greetings,

iñaki

[RexFTW]

Anyone still playing the deck? Inaki?

I play it still and win every tournament I play. Ok maybe only 80% of them.

[ScatmanX]

I'd like to play this more too. Unfortunately, did not get a chance to go to one since my last report, last page. Also, had to return my Time Spirals from the friend I was borrowing them, so no more Spiral for me =/

[Piceli89]

Currently dismantling the deck. Although knowing that it's still good, it doesn't sound funny and appealing enough to be played for 5-6 turns anymore. If i were to play Combo again, my choice would be Tendrils, since it adopts many angles of attacking and doesn't rely on resolving a card to start the chain. But even Tendrils, these days, has serious limits. Not for Misstep only, ofc.

[RexFTW]

I still believe this is both the hardest combo deck to play against and the hardest one to play with. Taking that into account most people are not at all prepared for it.

[rgripp]

It's not just Misstep, it's the metagame change after Misstep.

I mean, it's not funny trying to win a post sideboard game vs NO RUG when they have Pyroblasts, Dazes, Missteps, FoWs and Pierces.

[ScatmanX]

It's not just Misstep, it's the metagame change after Misstep.

I mean, it's not funny trying to win a post sideboard game vs NO RUG when they have Pyroblasts, Dazes, Missteps, FoWs and Pierces.
You forgot the most scary card, that is Clique.

[planeswalkerzen]

What do you guys think of Snapcaster Mage in this deck? Maybe as a 1 off or so?

[Pich]

I'm testing 3. It's the nuts in a version with Snaps.

[DuKeLiO]

I'm playing with 3 sb Vendillion Clique, I liked them in testing, but maybe the Snapcaster Mage fills the role also. I will try them in this slots.

I also think NO Rug is not so bad matchup. At least with my sideboard, with Cliques on my side. Really the worst matchup are faster combo decks, like Ichorid, Reanimator (mostly for Iona) and Sneak'n'Show.

[ScatmanX]

I don't think Snapcaster can meet a home here. What do we intend to cut for him?
If it is Meditate/Cantrips/Intuition/Wish/BSZ/Spiral/Scroll, it looks bad, because our post-Spiral 7 cards has a higher chance of Fizzling.
If it is any untapper, it also seems bad, because 8 (counting Spiral), seems to be the lowest we can go.
If it is Counterspells, then maybe I can agree, since we can return combo pieces from the grave later, but we get more susceptible to some kind of hate, like Thorn/Chalice/Trinisphere, or merfolks, where we don't have time/mana to fake-go off one turn, to do it again the next one.

[Pich]

Solution ; Create a new Spring Tide deck without Time Spiral with 4 Ideas Unbound + Meditates with the help of Snapcaster Mage to go off. I did it and it works.

[Sims]

Solution ; Create a new Spring Tide deck without Time Spiral with 4 Ideas Unbound + Meditates with the help of Snapcaster Mage to go off. I did it and it works.

This is likely the solution if you wish to include Snapcaster in a Tide shell. Flashing back spells and removing them from the game seems poor when your main engine shuffles your deck and graveyard together. You'll be removing your own business spells from the deck and making your Spirals worse.

[Pich]

I reasoned the same way.

[death]

We've gotten some damn good news!

[mrjumbo03]

I just sold my High Tide deck a week ago :( Damn!

[Chikenbok]

Awwww yeah.

[murkymercy]

Just bought Time Spirals a few days ago :). Was going to rock this deck even with MM around, looks like it might be a bit easier now.

[nayon]

So what was the "go-to" list pre-MM ban?

[Philipp2293]

I think you could use Carsten Kotter's old list as a starting point, it felt pretty good in testing.

[lebarion]

I think you could use Carsten Kotter's old list as a starting point, it felt pretty good in testing.

I've started with Carsten list and I can say it really is a very good starting point. I've changed it a lot now, currently running Remands, Meditates and swapped BSZ for Brain Freeze maindeck, but it is mainly due to my playstyle (more combo than control).

There's many things that may be tailored in this deck, like cantrip suite, main kill condition, counter suite. The only cards I have (almost) dismissed are Retraced Image and Cloud of Faeries. I don't think they're needed here. Does someone still use them?

[egosum]

I think I'll go back to my old list after the misstep banhammer. Misstep granted the extra turns we needed against non blue decks (the same as the Retraced Image did in the old list).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[lebarion]

I think I'll go back to my old list after the misstep banhammer. Misstep granted the extra turns we needed against non blue decks (the same as the Retraced Image did in the old list).


Well, It makes sense. Still, I didn't like RI when I tested it. I guess Remand has taken its place in my build, as it also gains a little time before we can combo.

Iñaki, do you still hold to the list in the OP?

[egosum]

sorry in the OP?

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[lebarion]

Sorry, Opening Post :)

[egosum]

Ah, Ok, I think I will. W/O Mental Misstep in the scene I think Meditate are no longer needed (The main reason I fitted them in as 3 of was because without them I couldn't win the Tempo decks "on steroids", i.e. with mental misstep, without them I can go back to my old list).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[nayon]

Ah, Ok, I think I will. W/O Mental Misstep in the scene I think Meditate are no longer needed (The main reason I fitted them in as 3 of was because without them I couldn't win the Tempo decks "on steroids", i.e. with mental misstep, without them I can go back to my old list).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

So are the lists in the first post updated? I'll get on to testing some.

[bondafong]

I'll sleeve up my candles go back to the pre-mm list but with flusterstorm sb. :)

[Pich]

I tested against a U/W Countertop deck with Vendilion Cliques and Jaces and i came up with the following list ;

2 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
12 Island
3 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral
3 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Turnabout
3 Ponder
1 Wipe Away
3 Remand
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 2 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Snap
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Echoing Truth

[(nameless one)]

Ponder vs Preordain:

What's the pros and cons of each sometimes I see lists with 4 Ponders and 3 Preordains and sometimes it's the other way around.

Also, has anyone tried Peer Through Depths?

[Pich]

Ponder digs for High Tide or Spiral while Preordain filters the top of your library and smooths out your draws and land drops.

Ponder is better if you have a fetchland in case 2 of the 3 cards sucks but Preordain is much more appreciated when played on turn 1 to find Lands.

[Sigar]

If the Tempo decks become huge (read: Stifle), going all Islands is a real option. This means worse Brainstorms, but a safe manabase. What do you guys think?

[nayon]

If the Tempo decks become huge (read: Stifle), going all Islands is a real option. This means worse Brainstorms, but a safe manabase. What do you guys think?

I think that is a bridge that we can cross when we get there. For now, a few fetchlands should still be fine. After all, the metagame is shifting right now and stifle decks shouldn't be too popular during a shift.

[mordraid]

I think that is a bridge that we can cross when we get there. For now, a few fetchlands should still be fine. After all, the metagame is shifting right now and stifle decks shouldn't be too popular during a shift.

almost true. The fact is that stiflenaught will rise once again

[Chikenbok]

I tested against a U/W Countertop deck with Vendilion Cliques and Jaces and i came up with the following list ;

2 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
12 Island
3 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral
3 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Turnabout
3 Ponder
1 Wipe Away
3 Remand
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 2 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Snap
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Echoing Truth

I'm weary as to keeping in multiple meditates in the deck now. It feels like meditate used to pack a serious punch against people who you could essentially timewalk while they hit you with a mishras factory. However, if the meta does shift towards fast aggro and other various forms of combo again - it might be a card that has to get the cut because yes, turn 3 a zoo player can throw 15 points of damage at your face.

[Pich]

Meditate is also good because it helps you to continue going off if you get a bad Time Spiral. But i agree that it was better Meditating against a Squire and a Mishra.

[Sansian]

I like using one meditate in main and one in board. Between Wish and Scroll, you're likely to hit one after a spiral 9/5X isn't a bad set of odds. Oh and an Intuition in the main.

[(nameless one)]

Has anyone tested Three Wishes as another means of draw or would Meditate and Intuition be enough?

[ScatmanX]

Has anyone tested Three Wishes as another means of draw or would Meditate and Intuition be enough?
We don't even run 4 Meditates. Why would you consider Three Wishes?

[nayon]

No candelabras or intuitions? It seems I've missed some development. Why not?

[egosum]

We don't even run 4 Meditates. Why would you consider Three Wishes?

We can consider it just because it exiles the three cards. This means that we can Three Wishes and then Time Spiral for good profit, while meditating into Spiral is not as good. Nevertheless I would say this doesn't justify the inclusion of Three wishes.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[planeswalkerzen]

Hey Inaki,

I was wondering why do you play Retraced Image over Candelabras? Also what do you think about Surgical Extraction and Ravenous Trap. Extraction seems good against many decks (lands, remove bridge against dredge) and trap lets us deal with 1-off emrakuls in Enchantress. Also how many bounce spells in SB do u think is correct and what kind of split?

Cheers,
Zen

[egosum]

It' s everything well detailed in the opening post (the Primer). Please read it and if you still have doubts after that let me know.

About SE. I think is is a must have as 1-of in the sideboard, specially not that MM is gone. It is not needed, though it makes some pairings a lot easier (anything with Emrakul, for instance), and makes your reanimator match up better too.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[planeswalkerzen]

It' s everything well detailed in the opening post (the Primer). Please read it and if you still have doubts after that let me know.

About SE. I think is is a must have as 1-of in the sideboard, specially not that MM is gone. It is not needed, though it makes some pairings a lot easier (anything with Emrakul, for instance), and makes your reanimator match up better too.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-
Hey man read the primer and it was awesome! Playing your list except -1 Spell Pierce in SB for +1 Flusterstorm (flexibility against Storm and still a some-what average spell pierce at times) and cut slaughter pact of ravenous trap(lots of dredge and no reanimator in my meta). What should I take out for surgical extraction? Snap?

[egosum]

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

This is my actual Sideboard:

3x Spell Pierce (expecting CB Golden COmeback, a least for this next 2 months)
2x Snap
2x Wipe Awway (read Spell Pierce...)
1x Echoing Truth
1x Rebuild
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Flusterstorm
1x Meditate
1x Brain Freeze
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Turnabout

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[planeswalkerzen]

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

This is my actual Sideboard:

3x Spell Pierce (expecting CB Golden COmeback, a least for this next 2 months)
2x Snap
2x Wipe Awway (read Spell Pierce...)
1x Echoing Truth
1x Rebuild
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Flusterstorm
1x Meditate
1x Brain Freeze
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Turnabout

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Oh sweet thanks for the sideboard man!

[planeswalkerzen]

So this weekend there is a Legacy Tournament at my local store. This is the list I'm planning to take. (I own no Candelabras).
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
2 Pact of Negation
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
1 Meditate

4 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Time Spiral
3 Ponder
3 Retraced Image

4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
13 Island


Sideboard:
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brain Freeze
1 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

Reason for the Snapcaster Mage (this quote is from the latest SCG article by Drew Levin):
"Four Snapcaster Mage could have a lot of surprise value. What are they going to do, NOT attack with their Ethersworn Canonist and Gaddock Teeg? Are they really going to keep in Path to Exile? Sure, they can have the Lightning Bolt, but they could also not have the hate bear. The key here is that Snapcaster Mage is still pretty good value if you aren't using it as interaction—flashing back a Meditate or a Turnabout is a pretty big game when the spell you're holding would have otherwise been a conditionally useful card like Snap.

The beauty of Snapcaster Mage is that you can double up on your bounce spells, making it that much harder to lock you out of the game on pure volume. Sure, they can have three different hate cards, but you can have Echoing Truth, Rebuild, and Snapcaster Mage! At Snapcaster Mage's worst in this schema, you get to fog a Tarmogoyf for a turn and cast another Brainstorm."

Your thourghts on the list? From my original list I changed:
Maindeck:
-1 Pact of Negation
-1 Ponder
+1 Snapcaster Mage
+1 Meditate

Sideboard:
-1 Ravenous Trap
-1 Wipe Away
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Noxious Revival
+3 Snapcaster Mage
+1 Rebuild

Should I go back to orginial? Should I play Cloud of Faeries over Retraced Image?

Cheers,
Zen

[Piceli89]

Retraced Image is obsolete.

Has anyone tried playing against the new breeds of Canadian Threshold? I fear the clock put by Delver of Secrets could, along with 3-4 counters (especially post sideboard) be too hard for this deck to solve. It basically gives, if played on turn 1, 6 turns, and this is a combo that goes off optimally on turn 4. The fact is that it forces you to go off way earlier, where a couple of Pierces and REBs alone could be enough to cripple the deck. Baring screw, playing around their Stifles, etc., which are further complications.
I think that card could pose some serious problems to the deck, and that's a reason why I'm reluctant building it again.
Any thoughts? Concrete test material?

[egosum]

Who says that?

I'm still playing 3 of them in maindeck and still works as they used to work, what has changed that makes it worse? What do you suggest the "super needed" Candelabra? Or maybe Clod of Faries? Maybe Counterspell? Candian, new or old is not unbeatalbe, a well timed Turnabout with your superior protection must be enough, of course they can draw God Hands but on average your hands are better, more consistent, with a lot more manipulation, and you can win faster.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Piceli89]

We have already been on the Retraced Image argument some time ago, and it's pretty simple: unless you open flooded hands with 3-4 lands or more, the acceleration given by RI is not worth playing with a card less. You can profit more from having an extra card and land dropping in the old-fashioned "one per turn" way, and curving normally with Merchant and Ponder/Preordain. Image is bad because it's a dead card in mono-lands hand, where you have to cantrip to build your position. It's really good post-Spiral, but wouldn't you be already winning after having resolved a Spiral (unless on 3 lands and a single High Tide, where a fizzle is more likely)?
It's also a very dead card to be drawn past turn 2. You'll disagree with me and that's fine.

By the way, I have never been one of those who thought that Candelabra was "super needed", it's the contrary. I used to play Cloud of Faeries, which added the bonus of cycle into a counter after having hidden one with Brainstorm against combo decks. I've won several games against Dredge and UB Ant with that trick. Cycling it also made me find more lands against tempo decks, and other marginal gains that made me comfortable with 2 of them maindeck along with a Snap.

About the Canadian issue: you bypassed the question, which was, put down more clearly: do you find that the boost given in clock terms by Delver of Secrets can give problems to this deck, paired with the usual 2-3 counters and the delay given by Stifle-fear (you know what I mean)? Having a 3/2 beating your neck on turn2 is rather different than having a 1/1 doing it.

[ScatmanX]

Canadian have never been a problem before Delver. I don't see it becoming one only because of it...

Edit: MD Canadian has only 4 Counters that worry us. Post Sb, they have a pretty high concentration of counters, with more Pierces and BeBs. Still, Delver is fragile. If you Snap it, it goes back being a 1/1, with sickness, and a 50-50% chance of flipping. If they don't have dude turn1+dude turn2+ 2-3 counters, I don't see they beating us.

You said a flipped Delver is a 6 turn clock. That give us 6 turns (7 on the play) to play lands, and gather mana to go trough Daze/Pierce. If they play Delver T1, they ain't Stifling your Fetchland.

[Piceli89]

Perhaps you guys haven't tested against it already, because that thing puts serious pressure since turn 2. Of course this won't happen that they have it on the first turn on a regular basis, but that possibility is nothing to sneeze at, in my opinion. It's that much dangerous that the old Mongoose days.

[xfxf]

Hi,

I'm mostly a casual Legacy player and looking for a new deck after the MM ban. I'm leaning towards Spiral Tide currently but after testing ANT, TES and Spiral Tide in goldfishing scenarios this one didn't give me the sense of deepness the other two did.

How do you guys compare Spiral Tide to the other storm decks. What are its advantages/disadvantages and why would you pick this deck over the others?

I've gone through the original post and the links provided there but I'd like to hear more about others' experiences playing this deck and its analysis in the current environment.

[death]

How is storming up 20+ spells and stroking for 60+ with life total being irrelevant not deep?

[lebarion]

I'm leaning towards Spiral Tide currently but after testing ANT, TES and Spiral Tide in goldfishing scenarios this one didn't give me the sense of deepness the other two did.

Could you explain what do you mean by "deepness"?



How do you guys compare Spiral Tide to the other storm decks. What are its advantages/disadvantages and why would you pick this deck over the others?

I guess Spiral Tide has two main advantages compared to TES and ANT, which are the ultra-consistent manabase and counterspells.
Even though TES has Silence effects and ANT has discard, counterspells - specially "free" counterspells - are usually better.
Also, Time Spiral has some advantages over Ad Nauseam and other engines, as it both draws you cards and generate mana, and are life-independent and (mostly) grave-independent.
Spiral Tide usually has a better match against slow control decks than TES and ANT, and a positive match against other Storm combo, specially with SB.
Ignoring opponent's life total is very good, too, as equipments (Jitte, Batterskull), Rhox War Monks, Lightning Helix and other lifegainers don't matter.

And, of course, there's always the sadistic pleasure of making someone shuffle to infinite boredom :)

That said, both TES and ANT are quicker than Time Spiral, so their game against aggro is better.
TES is really more versatile as it can usually choose the engine it will use - no problems with Meddling Mage or things like that.
I believe TES is also less lucky-dependent, as IGG loop is 100% certain to kill, and it is less likely to draw a dozen bad cards of an Ad Nauseam than to draw seven bad cards from Time Spiral.

[nayon]

Another question: Other than artifact hate, is there any reason not to play candelabra? I don't have RIs, and am not sold on them. Is candelabra a good substitute?

[lebarion]

Another question: Other than artifact hate, is there any reason not to play candelabra? I don't have RIs, and am not sold on them. Is candelabra a good substitute?

Personally, I don't like Retraced Image. Cloud of Faeries is good, but I currently dropped both and don't regret.

If I had access to Candelabras, I'd probably use them. However, a friend of mine have already lost games because of opposing Needles or Pridemages. I guess it's up to you to test and decide based on your meta if Candelabra's weaknesses override (is this the right word?) its qualities.

[nayon]

Personally, I don't like Retraced Image. Cloud of Faeries is good, but I currently dropped both and don't regret.

If I had access to Candelabras, I'd probably use them. However, a friend of mine have already lost games because of opposing Needles or Pridemages. I guess it's up to you to test and decide based on your meta if Candelabra's weaknesses override (is this the right word?) its qualities.

I think the benefits outweigh the negatives, and if you play carefully it shouldn't lose you the game, only less value than you hope for. Nothing stops you from using it at least once.

[xfxf]

I can see how my use of word "deepness" can cause some negative reactions. I'm not a native speaker so pardon my inability to express myself the way I intended to. What I meant was that TES felt like it's versatility, speed and the possible directions it can go with a given hand gives the deck more tricks and requires me to learn more about the possible interactions and avenues the deck can offer. ANT don't have that feel but it has this feeling of brokenness and power.

I'm still inclined towards Spiral Tide though due to it's mono-blue color and heavy use of Urza's block spells (I mentioned I was mostly a casual player right :))

[Admiral_Arzar]

I can see how my use of word "deepness" can cause some negative reactions. I'm not a native speaker so pardon my inability to express myself the way I intended to. What I meant was that TES felt like it's versatility, speed and the possible directions it can go with a given hand gives the deck more tricks and requires me to learn more about the possible interactions and avenues the deck can offer. ANT don't have that feel but it has this feeling of brokenness and power.

I'm still inclined towards Spiral Tide though due to it's mono-blue color and heavy use of Urza's block spells (I mentioned I was mostly a casual player right :))

TES is much faster and also has more paths to victory than Spiral Tide. It's highly explosive and has a number of god hands that allow you to win on turn 1. I would say that TES is stronger against aggro and also against some other combo decks. The advantages of playing Tide include the best manabase in the format and an extremely consistent combo. Tide has more library manipulation than any other deck in the format, so eventually you're going to find what you need. It's also very difficult to fizzle once you get going (aside of the nightmare 5 lands + 2 FOW Spiral hand, which is extremely rare). I've found that it's quite easy to combo off even without Spiral (starting with just Meditate/Zenith and some Tides and untaps usually gets you there). Tide also has better answers to certain threats - I find it to be generally stronger against Non-Counterbalance, non-Hymn blue decks. It's also much stronger against Chalice aggro and Stax because of its solid manabase and easy access to Rebuild. Tide is also (IMO, some may disagree, although I've played both) easier to pilot than TES.


Retraced Image is obsolete.

Has anyone tried playing against the new breeds of Canadian Threshold? I fear the clock put by Delver of Secrets could, along with 3-4 counters (especially post sideboard) be too hard for this deck to solve. It basically gives, if played on turn 1, 6 turns, and this is a combo that goes off optimally on turn 4.
Any thoughts? Concrete test material?

I played against Canadian with Delver and also UBR tempo with Delver at my local last weekend. I beat both 2-0, winning at least three of those games the turn before I would have died. In two of those cases, one extra disruption spell would have probably done me in. The matchup is close and requires extremely tight play, but it is definitely winnable. Just please, for the love of all things holy, don't walk into Stifle early.


Another question: Other than artifact hate, is there any reason not to play candelabra? I don't have RIs, and am not sold on them. Is candelabra a good substitute?

Candelabra has been the stone-cold nuts in my testing. If you have them, play them.

[GradStudentGuy]

Hi,

I'm mostly a casual Legacy player and looking for a new deck after the MM ban. I'm leaning towards Spiral Tide currently but after testing ANT, TES and Spiral Tide in goldfishing scenarios this one didn't give me the sense of deepness the other two did.

How do you guys compare Spiral Tide to the other storm decks. What are its advantages/disadvantages and why would you pick this deck over the others?

I've gone through the original post and the links provided there but I'd like to hear more about others' experiences playing this deck and its analysis in the current environment.

Spiral Tide is slower then TES or ANT by a good two turns on average. The deck cant win on turn one and very rarely on turn two. However, Sprial tide is able to deal with storm hate better then the other decks (FOW ,other counter spells, cunning wish) and can recover from discard much easier. It also can play a longer game against aggro decks as its life total is not part of its engine.

[rgripp]

How you guys have been dealing with the Snapcaster Mage version of Team America?

While pre-MM I didn't think the match was particularly difficult, because you could just recoup from a Hymn or a Thoughtseize with a single Meditate or a topdeck Time Spiral, now, with Snapcaster, a flashbacked Thoughtseize or Hymn to Tourach is so much card disadvantage, that if you end up with anything useful in your hand at all, it's a surprise.

[Pich]

I played a bunch of games against a very good player playing Snapcaster BUG, i won 45-50 % of the mainboard games because i was able to Tide + Spiral in late game on low life total with single backup because he was holding removals in his hand at some point of the game but after sideboard i guess we can't do much against the deck because it seems pretty hard to get through those 4 Force of Will, 4 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Thoughtseize, X Surgical Extraction, 4 Snapcaster Mage, 2 Vendilion Clique + X Spell Pierce.. I'm saying that and my list isn't that weak against Disruption, i have 4 FoWs, 3 Remand and post board i have 3 Vendilion Cliques for the blue matchups and 3 Spell Pierces for the CB/Hymns/Spheres.

Here is my decklist ;

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Force Of Will
3 Remand

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

3 Cunning Wish
1 Meditate
1 Brain Freeze

3 Turnabout
3 Clouds of Faeries

12 Island
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
________________________________________________
3 Spell Pierce
3 Vendilion Clique

2 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Thruth
1 Dismember

1 Pact of Negation
1 Meditate

1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

[lebarion]

Played a tournament last Saturday in my local store, with a list similar to Pich's, except -3 Cloud of Faeries, -4 Ponder, +4 Meditate, +1 Intuition, +1 Pact of Negation, +1 Fetch. My matches were:

1st round - Stoneblade w/ Countertop (1-2)
I combo the first game easily. Second and third he assembles Counter Top and I couldn't bounce it.

2nd round - BGw Junk (0-2)
This guy uses loads of discards. In the second game I was about to combo after 5 discard spells and Extirpate on High Tide (I've sided out one), with Choke on table, when he topdecks Vindicate (used on untapped island) and Thoughtseize. Had I draw the Island I needed one turn before, I've comboed him.

3rd round - Bye. Well, facing what I consider to be the two worst matches for my deck in the first two rounds is not a good beginning. Let's at least try to recover.

4th round - Burn (2-0)
Win both games in the fourth turn, both at 4 life.

5th round - Goblins (2-0)
First game he doesn't put much pressure and I eventually combo him.
Second game I force his first turn lackey, then proceed to win through a single Pyroblast.

6th round - Merfolk (2-0)
He puts a lot of pressure both games, but have no Cursecatcher. I win through Daze and Daze + Force. Not that I consider this to be a good match, but it is so much easier to win this match now without Mental Misstep!

Finished 4-2 to a 13rd place, not very satisfying but not bad, either.

I liked Meditate a lot. I its huge versus discard and opponents that are not putting much pressure, and it was common to combo without Time Spiral chaining Meditates and finishing with Brain Freeze and Remand.

[KajKOO]

Hello,

In Last Saturday I won GPT Amsterdam with Hide Tide, Here is my list:

Main:
4x Hide Tide
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Time Spiral
4x Candelabra of Tawnos
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Meditate
3x Turnabout
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x Cunning Wish
1x Intuition
2x Preordain
6x Fetches
12x Islands

SB:
3x Pact of Negation
3x Flusterstorm (I personally I prefer Spell pierce but I knew that a lot of people will be have their own Flusterstorms agains me (they knew that I going to play Tide) so if you have more than them you have a no problem with that card)
1x Meditate
1x Brain freeze
1x Mediate
1x Turnabout
2x Echoing Truth
1x Wipe Away
1x Snap
1x Blue Sun’s Zenith
1x Rebuild


There was aggro meta no CB (I knew it before competition started)

Round one MUD 2:0
Game one:
The keep a slow hand with 3x wastelands and Monolith on turn 2. I Forced Monilith and goes on turn 4 with combo.
side out: -2 candelabras, -1 preordain
side in: +1 Rebuild, +1 Turnabout, +1 Echoing Truth
Game two:
He mull twice. He plays revoker on turn 2 in candelabras and tried Lodestone Golem on Turn 3 which I forced. After this he had a mana screw (stoped at 5) and he didn’t do anything for 2 turns. I go with combo with 6 lands in table.

Round Two Burn 2:1

Game one:
I stayed at 4 Life and goes with combo on turn 4. After Spiral he draw Fireblast which I Forced.

side out: -2 candelabras, -2 preordain
side in: +2x Flusterstorm, +1x Turnabout, +1x Echoing Truth

Game two:
He played on turn two Pyrostatic Pillar with I forced. To turn four he had 2 cards hand which I guess there was a double pyroblasts. So I play at EOT of his turn I play turnabout to tap him (I had only one protection in my hand). I was wrong he tried to burn me I Forced Fireblast but in my turn I had a mana screw (didn’t see a 4th land) so without turnabout I can’t win this (In hand spiral and Tide)

Game three:
Easy go on turn 4 with couple counters in past to keep my life above 10.
side out: - 1 Echoing Truth
side in: +1x Flusterstorm

Round Three R/B Goblis 2:1

Game One:
He tried to slow me with double port and lackey on T1 (forced), but with candelabras it is impossible.
Side out:: -2 candelabras, -2 preordain
Side in: +2x Flusterstorm, +1x Turnabout, +1 Echoing Truth, (I saw a cabal therapy in game one).

Game Two:
He start with Thoughtseize which I Flusterstorm, then turn two lackey resolve. He had double pyroblast and I had bad hand.

side out: - 1 Echoing Truth (no Thorn of Amethyst)
side in: +1x Flusterstorm (Thoughtseize)

Game Three:
I start play land and EOT. He started with lackey I brainstorm did see anything so lackey resolve. Turn two Merchant for Hide tide. He attack me with lackey put matron and goes for “Siege-gang” and play Thougseize (go away Tide). On Turn three I topdeck a snapcaster mage which blocks lackey – no Siege-gang in play. After this he drew a lot of hand disruption (therapys/Thougseizes) and to turn 5 I had in my hand (Time spiral and Turnabout) and 5 lands. I go without tide with spiral and won (good Spiral).


Round four:
Easy MU with GW Maverick I killed on turn 3 to two times.
Side out: -1 candelabras, -2 preordain
side in: +2x Flusterstorm (Green Sun’s Zenith for gaddoc), +1 Wipe Away
Game Five and Game Six ID cuz of Top 8 for 20 people (time to eat)


Top 8:
quarter final R/B Goblins once again (the same person):
Game One:
Easy kill on turn 4 (I can go on turn 3 but I had to many life to risk of bad spiral)
Side out: -2 candelabras, -2 preordain
Side in: +3x Flusterstorm, +1x Turnabout

Game Two:
I keep a good had bad with one land (2x Hide Tide, Turnabout, candelabra, Island, Brainstom, Spiral). He mull twice and keep fast hand with lackey and some goblins, no matron/siege-gang). In Turn 3 I didn’t saw a land I’ve stoped at 2 lands and 2x candelabras (in Table). I had enough life to wait one round. But I didn’t saw a land once again so I go with 2 lands (On Upkeep: hide tide/candelabras untap. On main Hide Tide->Candelabra untap/Turnabout/Spiral). I wasn’t risk of Pyroblast because he had also only two lands(one port which he used to tap me on upkeep). After spiral I saw a 3th land and kill him.

Semi final LED-less Dredge with lands:
Game one:
I keep not bad hand, don’t remember exactly. But he had every good (3x Teraphy in hand, 2x Imps, Troll, and 2x lands). I Forced first imp but second after Teraphy resolve. Next turn was gg.

Side out: -1 preordain, 1 candelabra
Side in: +2x Echoing Truth

Game two:
I keep hand with force. I have started with ponder I saw snapcaster mage. He started with Imp (forced). Then on T2 he goes with carful study resolve (brainstorm and EOT). I put land and pass. He goes once again with study at EOT I goes with snapcaster mage with brainstorm. And I knew it is a good from now no Ichorid attack because for bridge burn (snapcaster block) gives me a time. I killed him on next turn.

Game Three:
Dreadge mull’s to 4 so it was easy game.



Finals:
2:0 with GW maverick (no choke, only post side gaddoc easy MU)

Tips:
Each time when I side out candels and in Turnabout i was doing it if i was expected Pitting Needles.

3x Flusterstorm is too much. I will try only one on wish and 2x Spell Pierce. But on the other hand if BUG with snapcasters will board in 2x Flusterstorm if you don’t side in 3 you will lose for sure (checked)
Also

Surgical Extraction – is the card that must go into sideboard, maybe on the 3th Pact of negation it helps against Reanimator and Dreade MU

[Necro]

Hey KajK00,

Congratulations with your finish.
It seems that High Tide was a correct choice considering your matches and your excellent result!

I found your decklist very interesting, since it seemed that since the Hatfield's piloted their brew, there has not been any big innovations concerning the Candelabra build.
I have some questions concerning your choices.

You replace Blue Sun's Zenith (BSZ) and Mind over Matter (MoM) with two Snapcaster Mage's (SM).
1) Did you ever miss the main deck BSZ?
2) Are the SM's a solid replacement for MoM? MoM usually results in a guaranteed win, especially when you BSZ targeting yourself for moderate X. In other words; how happy were you with the two SM's?

Regarding the Surgical Extraction.
I think that you are correct on this.
Is -1 Flusterstorm +1 Surgical Extraction in the sideboard a good suggestion?

All in all, thanks for the report!

Kind regards,
Maarten

[KajKOO]

Hey Necro

I have never miss BSZ main. Flashed Turnabout with SM can also generete about 40-50 mans so you can draw almost whole your library and repeat the process to kill.

I am happy very they won me game with goblins (block lackey) when he searched with matron for siege gang and never play it.


Also they helps against dredge (If you can blocks Ichorids and burn bridges, dredge don't attack gives you a time 1-2 turns. Also with this time his library goes to be below of 20-15 cards so there is a chance to kill him from hand with wished Brain Freeze.

They block hate bears like gaddoc and cannonist :)


I am not sure about cutting Flusterstorms. Against BUG with SM and post sideboard (+3 Surgical Extraction + 2x Flusterstorm) without your flusterstorms you can't win. If BUG drew only one FlusterStorm he can cast it twice. He never tap in his turn more than 2 mana for Hymn. He will wait to have 5 lands in table and after that he starts to play goys. No earlier.

[never_to_young_to_die]

Hey guys I am thinking about getting into this deck. I saw this auction on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280759916986#ht_776wt_1185). Is this a good deal? It's cheaper then SCG but I don't want to spend money on the deck if it isn't that good. It doesn't seem to put up good results anymore. Do you think it's worth it? Also is this deck better then Spring Tide? Thanks guys!

[ScatmanX]

Does anyone have the list the Hatfield brothers are playing today?

[xfxf]

I was hoping to see some High Tide in GP Amsterdam top8. Did anybody here attended the GP with High Tide, how was the meta? We don't see High Tide doing well in SCG opens but why do you think it couldn't make a presence in the GP as well?

[nayon]

Does anyone have the list the Hatfield brothers are playing today?

I played Alix on round 1. He told me his list was pretty much the same (with candles) except he was running some pacts main and flusterstorm.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I've been playing this list at my local and making top 4 pretty consistently (except the week where I misplayed a bunch):

4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
12 Island

Sideboard
1 Pact of Negation
3 Spell Pierce
2 Remand
3 Snap
1 Brain Freeze
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Meditate
1 Blue-Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout

The maindeck is basically the old Hatfield list, and has performed very well. The sideboard has been going through a lot of flux. I'm not sure about the Remands and think they will probably become something else. I'm not sure what at this point though - perhaps Pact of Negation or Flusterstorm. A fourth Snap might not be amiss either as the card has been insane in testing. Also, I'm not sure if the extra power of Flusterstorm over Spell Pierce worth being unable to counter Counterbalance/Thorn/Chalice etc. Any advice?

[Obfuscate Freely]

Does anyone have the list the Hatfield brothers are playing today?
We didn't have a great day yesterday, but we both played the following list:

//maindeck
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Preordain

4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish

4x Time Spiral
3x Meditate

4x High Tide
4x Candelabra of Tawnos
3x Turnabout

4x Force of Will
2x Pact of Negation

12x Island
6x fetchland

//sideboard
2x Pact of Negation
2x Flusterstorm
1x Surgical Extraction

1x Meditate
1x Turnabout
1x Intuition
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze

1x Snap
1x Wipe Away
1x Echoing Truth
1x Repeal
1x Rebuild

We tried to streamline the maindeck, and add a pair of Pacts, in anticipation of Merfolk and U/W. The additional Pacts in the sideboard also help those matchups, and the Flusterstorms are for even more protection against BUG (especially the discard), Reanimator, and other combo decks.

The format is highly interactive right now, which is generally bad for combo decks, but Spiral Tide has a good deal of resiliency, and is still one of the most consistent decks you can play. We figured it was a reasonable choice. However, BUG and Reanimator are difficult matchups, and those were the decks that took the two of us out of the tournament.

Anwar's solution involved more Flusterstorms in the board, which might have been correct. There aren't very many good ways to fight Thoughtseize/Hymn with this deck.

-Alix

[Admiral_Arzar]

Anwar's solution involved more Flusterstorms in the board, which might have been correct. There aren't very many good ways to fight Thoughtseize/Hymn with this deck.

-Alix

I've been considering testing Divert to improve the bad Hymn.dec matchup. Not sure if it'll be good enough, although it also seems strong against all the Surgical Extractions running around. I also need to test cutting one Candelabra, as I find myself boarding it out a lot and also drawing too many untap effects occasionally.

Did you miss the maindeck Intuition, or is it no longer needed to ensure consistency?

[Di]

I've been considering testing Divert to improve the bad Hymn.dec matchup. Not sure if it'll be good enough, although it also seems strong against all the Surgical Extractions running around. I also need to test cutting one Candelabra, as I find myself boarding it out a lot and also drawing too many untap effects occasionally.

Did you miss the maindeck Intuition, or is it no longer needed to ensure consistency?

I ran Divert in the sideboard for a few months to try to handle this, but I ended up disliking it because I found it to be too narrow. I only had it as a 2of (which could've been a mistake for its intended purpose), and I rarely had it in my opening hand or early enough to make a difference, and after turn 4 it was essentially dead. Beyond Hymn to Tourach or the occasional Vindicate or whatever it was underwhelming, and I pretty much always wanted it to be Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce instead as they had wider applications.

I've actually only been running 3 Candelabra for a while, and I think it's better. I found that with 4 I would often find myself in similar situations where I'd have too many untap effects and not enough business, and it was having an impact on my post-Spiral draws. I also ran into situations where I'd have hate aimed at Candelabra via Needle/Revoker and would end up with my pants down sitting on 2 of them and not able to combo off, whereas that 2nd Candelabra could've likely been another business spell.

I'm also teetering on a maindeck Intuition. Sometimes it's insane and is a lot nicer than the Scroll->Wish->Intuition->Spiral play, and a lot of other times it's clunky and slow. It's sitting in a flex slot for me that I'm testing between that, Flusterstorm, Snapcaster Mage, and a Meditate. My maindeck is the same as Alix's with some slight changes:

-1 Candelabra of Tawnos
-1 Meditate

+1 Blue Sun's Zenith
+1 Flex slot mentioned above (Meditate, Flusterstorm, Snapcaster Mage, Intuition)

I couldn't come to grips with cutting the maindeck BSZ as I feel it puts too much pressure on Cunning Wish. Granted it's a worse natural draw than Intuition, but I dislike the lack of an actual win condition in the maindeck. It just seems like it'd end up weakening a number of aspects of it, from the added stress on Wish to a weaker Merchant Scroll post-Spiral, etc. There are far too many situations that involve post-Spiral Merchant Scroll for BSZ and drawing 9-10+ where it's the best possible play for me to cut it.

The flex slot is technically Meditate #3, but I'm looking to see if this could be better. I like the idea of a maindeck Flusterstorm because it gives you a decent out against Hymn to Tourach, Reanimator, and Storm combo early off Merchant Scroll, and is still ridiculous against anything blue. I just don't know if it's worth sacrificing a draw spell for it, or if it isn't better than the 2nd Pact.

[bondafong]

I was hoping to see some High Tide in GP Amsterdam top8. Did anybody here attended the GP with High Tide, how was the meta? We don't see High Tide doing well in SCG opens but why do you think it couldn't make a presence in the GP as well?

I attended gp amsterdam with the deck with candelabras. I went 4-0 and then ended up with 4-4 paired against reanimator, dredge, painted stone and uw. It wasn't a good metagame choice because there were more reanimator and dredge than anticipated. Further more the uw matchup aren't that great, and that deck represented a fair perentage of the field as well.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I ran Divert in the sideboard for a few months to try to handle this, but I ended up disliking it because I found it to be too narrow. I only had it as a 2of (which could've been a mistake for its intended purpose), and I rarely had it in my opening hand or early enough to make a difference, and after turn 4 it was essentially dead. Beyond Hymn to Tourach or the occasional Vindicate or whatever it was underwhelming, and I pretty much always wanted it to be Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce instead as they had wider applications.

I've actually only been running 3 Candelabra for a while, and I think it's better. I found that with 4 I would often find myself in similar situations where I'd have too many untap effects and not enough business, and it was having an impact on my post-Spiral draws. I also ran into situations where I'd have hate aimed at Candelabra via Needle/Revoker and would end up with my pants down sitting on 2 of them and not able to combo off, whereas that 2nd Candelabra could've likely been another business spell.

I'm also teetering on a maindeck Intuition. Sometimes it's insane and is a lot nicer than the Scroll->Wish->Intuition->Spiral play, and a lot of other times it's clunky and slow. It's sitting in a flex slot for me that I'm testing between that, Flusterstorm, Snapcaster Mage, and a Meditate. My maindeck is the same as Alix's with some slight changes:

-1 Candelabra of Tawnos
-1 Meditate

+1 Blue Sun's Zenith
+1 Flex slot mentioned above (Meditate, Flusterstorm, Snapcaster Mage, Intuition)

I couldn't come to grips with cutting the maindeck BSZ as I feel it puts too much pressure on Cunning Wish. Granted it's a worse natural draw than Intuition, but I dislike the lack of an actual win condition in the maindeck. It just seems like it'd end up weakening a number of aspects of it, from the added stress on Wish to a weaker Merchant Scroll post-Spiral, etc. There are far too many situations that involve post-Spiral Merchant Scroll for BSZ and drawing 9-10+ where it's the best possible play for me to cut it.

The flex slot is technically Meditate #3, but I'm looking to see if this could be better. I like the idea of a maindeck Flusterstorm because it gives you a decent out against Hymn to Tourach, Reanimator, and Storm combo early off Merchant Scroll, and is still ridiculous against anything blue. I just don't know if it's worth sacrificing a draw spell for it, or if it isn't better than the 2nd Pact.

I think Divert would have to be a 3-4 of to actually make a difference, but I'm not sure about sideboard space. I run Spell Pierce instead of Flusterstorm because I don't own Flusterstorms and there's also Enchantress and Stompy in my meta, so Thorn, Chalice, and Nevermore are very real issues.

I'll probably replace Candelabra #4 with a maindeck Pact of Negation at some point, either that or another cantrip. I actually lost a game this weekend because the fourth Candelabra wasn't a blue card (nothing to pitch to force). I agree with running Zenith in the main, as having it there has actually won me the game a few times (The silliest case was the other day when I got milled out by Imperial Painter with Tide + Spiral + Zenith in my hand, Zenith'd for zero EOT so I had a one-card library, and then went off).

I've been liking the one maindeck Intution, as it allows you to easily find a T4 Spiral if you already have High Tide in your hand (Scroll -> Intuition), and also serves as a semi-demonic tutor while comboing. I board it out where speed isn't as necessary or if the opponent is packing Extirpate/Extraction.

[TheRedBaron]

I've been sucessfully Running 1 Mind Over Matter and 1 Echoing Truth main board in my current build, in flex spots.

E.Truth, I find is never a dead card in the candle version.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I've been sucessfully Running 1 Mind Over Matter and 1 Echoing Truth main board in my current build, in flex spots.

E.Truth, I find is never a dead card in the candle version.

I had a maindeck Wipe Away for a while and cut it when I kept drawing it at inopportune times. Maybe Echoing Truth would be better as a maindeck one-of, I'm not sure. Has Mind Over Matter actually been good, or just win-more? I know it helps you win faster, but at the point where you're untapping Candles you're probably going to win anyways.

[TheRedBaron]

I had a maindeck Wipe Away for a while and cut it when I kept drawing it at inopportune times. Maybe Echoing Truth would be better as a maindeck one-of, I'm not sure. Has Mind Over Matter actually been good, or just win-more? I know it helps you win faster, but at the point where you're untapping Candles you're probably going to win anyways.

I see what you mean. MoM is perhaps more of a win-more, but I have had it happen before where I didn't have a candle out, nor a spiral in hand. I dropped MoM using it to untap a land or 2 which allowed me to cast another cantrip getting a business spell. I feel as though it can be treated as a "safety-net" a 5th, pseudo Time Spiral, if you will.

[flrn]

Played my local tournament today. 59 people attended and I brought the following list:

4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
1 Intuition
3 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
4 Turnabout

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral

3 Flooded Strand
12 Island
3 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hibernation
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Snap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Wipe Away
3 Defense Grid

GW Maverick 2-0
Aggro Loam 2-0
Enchantress 2-0
NO RUG 2-0
BUG Control 2-0
Canadian i.D.

Deck is awesome. Will swap out some cards in the sideboard though. Will try the following at the next event:

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Snap
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Defense Grid

[ScatmanX]

@flrn: freaking loved your list. Will be trying out the exact 75.

[mistercakes]

so did flusterstorm really make the deck that much better? didn't even drop a game. nice.

[flrn]

Everytime you go to a tournament, you gotta ask yourself: Are there enough noncreature permanents out there, that I need to play Spell Pierce in those Flusterstorm slots? Currently the answer is clearly no, but that can change. I was very pleased with the performance of Flusterstorm. Defense Grid won me both postboard matches in the blue matchups and the best card all day long was Meditate, even though it drew me four lands once. I can't understand people playing less than four Meditate in their 75. Meditate is also really good in the control matchup. They don't have a fast route to victory, so if you cast a Meditate in their end step, they either need to counter it or they'll lose the game, even though they get an extra turn.

[mistercakes]

yea i was just curious b/c i have been running 4 candelabras over the 3 flusters and 1 ponder. i think i have an echoing truth in there as well somewhere.

what have you been siding out for the d-grids?

[flrn]

In the blue matchups, I boarded a Ponder, a Force of Will and the Intuition out to make room for the three Defense Grid. Both Ponder and Intuition are enablers to get you to a turn four kill on a more consistent basis. That is not needed as much in the blue matchups, since it is very unlikely that they force a turn four kill on you. Also the primary purpose to play Intuition is to have an additional pre-combo setup spell and a lot of blue decks pack some amount of Surgical Extraction in their boards. You never want to walk into those, because losing an important spell you searched up with Intuition pre-combo is the worst thing that can happen to you. If they start using Extractions after you casted your first High Tide, you are good to go anyway.

In the nonblue matchups you want to take out 1-2 Flusterstorm and bring in some bounce that fits the matchup. I was sometimes not sure, which bounce spell I would leave in the board as a target for my Cunning Wish. That's why I added a single Chain of Vapor to the board, because it is a solid all around wish target and Chalice of the Void is currently not that big of a deal, because very few people play it. I also took out the Ravenous Trap and the Hibernation, because wishing for Ravenous Trap is way to slow in the matchups, where it is needed and I rather have something useful in the board. I also don't see the point in playing the Hibernation at the moment, but you have to adapt some sideboard choices to the metagame that you are playing in.

[troopatroop]

Sorry if you've covered this, but what's your logic for taking out Candelabra? I like that it makes the deck about 600$ cheaper, but I'm wary of losing so many untap affects. Could you explain this for us in detail? Thanks :)

[flrn]

Sorry if you've covered this, but what's your logic for taking out Candelabra? I like that it makes the deck about 600$ cheaper, but I'm wary of losing so many untap affects. Could you explain this for us in detail? Thanks :)

I'm not an expert at this particular deck, because I've played Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils for the past 16 months. But the way I see it Candelabra functions as a ritual effect in this deck. It speeds the deck up to make a turn three kill as consistent as possible. I don't think turn three is needed in the current metagame and I think that eight untap effects are the number you currently want to play. And Time Spiral and Turnabout are both better untap effects than Candelabra. So before I add the first Candelabra to the deck I want to max out on those. Turn four is currently more than fine and if needed you can still burn a Force of Will on a turn one Nacatl. Other than that, the situation, that you go High Tide, Turnabout into Time Spiral comes up from time to time. I had that in four out of ten games. I also wanted to play more protection spells, given the fact, that the metagame is as blue as it currently is. Therefor you will most likely face more opponents, which are playing a blue disruptive shell, than people, who want to kill you on turn four, with their creatures. Both Reanimator and Dredge, which are bad matchups for the deck anyway, become a bit worse, but you have a way better chance at fighting blue decks, because you have eight protection spells before boarding and ten protection spells after boarding, with the boarding plan I executed at the last tournament.

[ThomasDowd]

I'm not an expert at this particular deck, because I've played Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils for the past 16 months. But the way I see it Candelabra functions as a ritual effect in this deck. It speeds the deck up to make a turn three kill as consistent as possible. I don't think turn three is needed in the current metagame and I think that eight untap effects are the number you currently want to play. And Time Spiral and Turnabout are both better untap effects than Candelabra. So before I add the first Candelabra to the deck I want to max out on those. Turn four is currently more than fine and if needed you can still burn a Force of Will on a turn one Nacatl. Other than that, the situation, that you go High Tide, Turnabout into Time Spiral comes up from time to time. I had that in four out of ten games. I also wanted to play more protection spells, given the fact, that the metagame is as blue as it currently is. Therefor you will most likely face more opponents, which are playing a blue disruptive shell, than people, who want to kill you on turn four, with their creatures. Both Reanimator and Dredge, which are bad matchups for the deck anyway, become a bit worse, but you have a way better chance at fighting blue decks, because you have eight protection spells before boarding and ten protection spells after boarding, with the boarding plan I executed at the last tournament.

im sure with the upping of extraction to 3 it will help.

Did you ever miss a maindeck zenith? I feel like the 3 cunning wishes may be a bit stressed in G1 situations where you may need to go get bounce with one to go off and then use one of your last two to win. But then again with 4 draw sevens and 3 draw fours you are probably fine in finding it. especially when the draw fours shuffle back in after a draw seven, wow just realized how dumb that is.

[Pich]

i 5-1-1'd into top 8 at the Legacy 1K in my city.

2-1 vs WW Vial
2-0 vs Burn Zoo
2-1 vs UW Stoneblade/Stifle
1-2 vs Dredge
2-1 vs UWr Stoneblade
2-0 vs GW
ID vs UW Stoneblade/Karakas

Top 8
0-2 vs Ub Show and Tell Blazing Shoal

[mistercakes]

i played a local 3 round tourney.

2-1 vs a bant deck. defense grids proved very useful in the sb games.

1-2 vs cat zoo. he just was too quick for me.

1-2 vs dredge. i almost got there, but he got me 1 turn too early game 3.

i played with 4 candelabras version.

[flrn]

Hey guys, it would be really sweet, if you would edit your lists to your results. Results without a decklist are worthless in my opinion.


Did you ever miss a maindeck zenith? I feel like the 3 cunning wishes may be a bit stressed in G1 situations where you may need to go get bounce with one to go off and then use one of your last two to win.

I never missed Blue Sun's Zenith in my main.

[TheRedBaron]

Main deck Zenith is only useful for the emmy matchups. I don't have problems in the dredge matchup. Try to Force their first Discard outlet or LED. Delay them into wishing for a Ravenous Trap/extraction.


I went 3-1 last Wednesday in local tourney.

2-0 vs. Sneak and Show
1-2 vs. Mono Red Painter
2-1 vs. R/U Painter
2-1 vs. Dredge

Top 8:
2-0 vs. Dredge
2-1 vs. MonoR Painter

Split top 2.

I have an older list, but my meta is all fast combo, so i use 4 candle build.

4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
4 ponder
2 preordain

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Turnabout
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
4 High Tide

1 Mind Over Matter

4 Candelabra

4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
11 Island

Board:
1 Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
3 Pact of Negation
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection

I'll probably make a few changes, but I still like 10 untappers main at least, with 1 wishable untapper... so, probably I'll keep at least 3 candle main board. Again my meta is combo-driven, so I need speed.

[xfxf]

Hey flrn,

You don't have any MD kill conditions. What happens when someone is able to resolve Surgical Extraction or Extirpate on your Cunning Wishes? Do you feel safe having all the win-cons in the sideboard?

[flrn]

Hey flrn,

You don't have any MD kill conditions. What happens when someone is able to resolve Surgical Extraction or Extirpate on your Cunning Wishes? Do you feel safe having all the win-cons in the sideboard?

I feel perfectly save without a win condition in my main. Even if it means, that I will lose 1% of my matches due to having no kill condition in my main, that also means, that I have a better deck 99% of the time. If my opponent is able to target a Cunning Wish with Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, that means two things:

a) He has knowledge, that Cunning Wish is my only way to get a kill condition. If you don't know that, it is very unlikely, that he will target my Cunning Wish.
b) He resolved a discard spell or a counter spell on my Cunning Wish.

And b) just won't happen. In the setup turns, where I sculpt my hand, Cunning Wish gets shuffled away with Brainstorm or deployed under the library with Preordain, because you don't want to have that card pre-combo. Meaning, that my opponents mostly won't see the Cunning Wish, if they are able to resolve a discard spell. Flusterstorm is also very good at denying opposing discard spells. And even if he get's to see my hand with a discard spell, that means, that he has to either know about point a) or take a risk with the decision to get rid of Cunning Wish, because if I have a win condition main, it is the wrong decision to do so. And a counter spell won't hit my Cunning Wish, because I must be desperate to cast it pre-combo.

I played a lot of tournaments with Doomsday Fetchland Tendrils without Tendrils of Agony main, because all of my piles ended in Burning Wish anyway and it never once came up, that an opponent was able to extirpate my Burning Wish. And Spiral Tide has Flusterstorm/Force of Will to stop discard/Surgical Extraction compared to DDFT.

[xfxf]

Nice approach, I like it.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Made top eight at the Beta Savannah tournament in Dallas with this list:

1 Pact of Negation
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

Sideboard
1 Pact of Negation
2 Flusterstorm
3 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Blue-Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
3 Defense Grid

I got easy matchups in the Swiss mostly (the only iffy one was Imperial Painter, which is always close in my experience). However, the deck was very consistent and powerful throughout. In top eight I faced Team America (every other deck in T8 was easy with the exception of the aforementioned Imperial Painter). I combo'd game one, got wrecked by 2 Hymn + FOW game 2, and then blew through double force and a Hymn to go off game 3. However, I fizzled after having to Time Spiral a third time due to lack of win conditions, and then lost. The top card of my library was the fourth Time Spiral, which was rather unfortunate.

Although variance finally caught up with me, I would highly recommend this list to anybody with Candelabras. It's much more consistent then my previous list (which had 4 Candles, 19 lands, and 10 cantrips) and is a blast to play. I wanted an extra Flusterstorm in the board against TA, so I will probably cut a Snap.

EDIT: Di was there as well, maybe he'll post a list.

EDIT2: I never boarded in defense grid, although that was more to do with my matchups than anything else. I left it out against Painter in case I had to FOW a nut draw, and left it out against TA so I could Flusterstorm Hymns. I'm not sure if leaving it out against TA was correct, but I noticed in the match that Hymn was the only thing that stopped me from winning - this deck blows through 1-2 counters on the combo turn relatively easily assuming you're not under heavy pressure to go off early. The only decks that I really want Grid against are things like Canadian ********* and anything with Snapcaster + a bunch of counters. Also, make sure to crack fetches first against Painter - I had to FOW turn 2 Magus of the Moon like a n00b because I had two fetches still in my hand.

[TheRedBaron]

Made top eight at the Beta Savannah tournament in Dallas with this list:

1 Pact of Negation
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

Sideboard
1 Pact of Negation
2 Flusterstorm
3 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Blue-Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
3 Defense Grid

I got easy matchups in the Swiss mostly (the only iffy one was Imperial Painter, which is always close in my experience). However, the deck was very consistent and powerful throughout. In top eight I faced Team America (every other deck in T8 was easy with the exception of the aforementioned Imperial Painter). I combo'd game one, got wrecked by 2 Hymn + FOW game 2, and then blew through double force and a Hymn to go off game 3. However, I fizzled after having to Time Spiral a third time due to lack of win conditions, and then lost. The top card of my library was the fourth Time Spiral, which was rather unfortunate.

Although variance finally caught up with me, I would highly recommend this list to anybody with Candelabras. It's much more consistent then my previous list (which had 4 Candles, 19 lands, and 10 cantrips) and is a blast to play. I wanted an extra Flusterstorm in the board against TA, so I will probably cut a Snap.

EDIT: Di was there as well, maybe he'll post a list.

EDIT2: I never boarded in defense grid, although that was more to do with my matchups than anything else. I left it out against Painter in case I had to FOW a nut draw, and left it out against TA so I could Flusterstorm Hymns. I'm not sure if leaving it out against TA was correct, but I noticed in the match that Hymn was the only thing that stopped me from winning - this deck blows through 1-2 counters on the combo turn relatively easily assuming you're not under heavy pressure to go off early. The only decks that I really want Grid against are things like Canadian ********* and anything with Snapcaster + a bunch of counters. Also, make sure to crack fetches first against Painter - I had to FOW turn 2 Magus of the Moon like a n00b because I had two fetches still in my hand.

Congrats!

How has that 1 MD pact been working? I was thinking about that too. I think Defense grids are great for the tempo Metas.

How has those 12 MD cantrips been working, I still like 10, but I may squeeze out 11. Oh, and when using intuition, were you ever afraid of a timely Surgical Extraction?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Congrats!

How has that 1 MD pact been working? I was thinking about that too. I think Defense grids are great for the tempo Metas.

How has those 12 MD cantrips been working, I still like 10, but I may squeeze out 11. Oh, and when using intuition, were you ever afraid of a timely Surgical Extraction?

The 1 MD Pact is great game one against blue (or decks with blasts), but gets boarded out against anything else. The 12 MD cantrips have been absolutely amazing and they are what make this version so consistent. I kept one-land hands all day long and never got mana-screwed (even when my opponent had Vindicates in one round).

As for Intuition, I always board out Intution and one High Tide, and only considered boarding them back in if I was sure my opponent did not play Extirpate or Surgical Extraction. You can access Intuition postboard with Cunning Wish if you really need it, but it is very risky in some matchups.

[Di]

There's a semi-report in the Gunslinger tournament thread for this. I ended up 3-3, losing round 6 against Team America to miss top8, with other losses coming from Imperial Painter and Bant. Here's what I ran at the Gunslinger tournament:

4 High Tide
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
2 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
12 Island

SB:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
1 Turnabout
2 Defense Grid
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pact of Negation
2 Snap
2 Echoing truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Wipe Away

I expected to see a lot of blue decks and a lot of G/W/x type aggro, which I think was pretty accurate from what ended up happening. Sadly, I never got to face any of those aggro decks. Given it was local for me I expected to see a lot of the hate I normally see, hence some odd choices and number. But I think the deck can be explained pretty simply.

I cut a Meditate in favor of a maindeck Flusterstorm because Flusterstorm is better in the matchups I was worried about (Reanimator, Storm, Hymn to Tourach decks, etc). I also cut the sideboard Meditate because I found the situations for me to actually Wish for it to be so slim that I couldn't justify keeping it in the board over something else. The lack of Meditates didn't affect me at all throughout the day, so I don't know if I'll be going back to 3-4. As good as they have been, I haven't been happy with them against blue decks due to Delver of Secrets resulting in an extra chunk of life or an extra opportunity to draw a Hymn to Tourach, so I'm beginning to find it rare to cast them outside of a combo turn.

The Flusterstorms ended up being incredible all day, both in the main and out of the board, so I was please with that, enough that I'll likely cut the 2nd md Pact for another md Flusterstorm. I ended up swapping the 2nd sb Flusterstorm for a Spell Pierce because of the amount of permanent hate I see locally, and it ended up being extremely relevant, as I ended up countering stuff from MUD, Sneak Attack, and Imperial Painter, so I think the slot can be justified. It also doesn't hurt against the aforementioned combo decks or Hymn to Tourach either.

The rest of the deck is rather self-explanatory. I explained earlier in the thread my thoughts on only 3 Candelabra, and I was happy with that. I still don't understand how people play the deck without it, but you can't convince everyone. I liked the maindeck Zenith because it took a lot of pressure off of Cunning Wish, which is huge because I often burn 1-2 early on for other things, and it also bailed me out of a few situations thanks to being maindeck for Merchant Scroll. Multiple Pacts were there for the anticipated amount of blue, but as mentioned before I'm likely going to swap one for another md Flusterstorm because it's better against Hymns.

Defense Grid was great all day. I'm happy it's finally getting exposure because I've been running the card since Misstep was printed, and it's so good against the tempo decks, or really anything running REB, Snapcaster Mage, or like 10 counters. I wound up with a high number of bounce spells because of the number of hate bears and such I see on a weekly basis. I didn't end up playing against any type of Maverick-type decks that they were mostly there for, but they were still relevant for a majority of the tournament. I like Hurkyl's over Rebuild because it's faster against the matchups I want it for (Affinity, MUD), and the likelihood of it getting hit by Spell Snare is really small, and the likelihood of someone playing Chalice @ 2 is really small because there's only one other 2cc card in the deck. I also keep the Wipe Away in the board as an out to Counterbalance should anyone run it, and it's also worthwhile to get around Mother of Runes protecting a Gaddock Teeg or whatever. It doesn't happen often, but the split second is relevant enough that I like having the option of grabbing it should it be needed.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I cut a Meditate in favor of a maindeck Flusterstorm because Flusterstorm is better in the matchups I was worried about (Reanimator, Storm, Hymn to Tourach decks, etc). I also cut the sideboard Meditate because I found the situations for me to actually Wish for it to be so slim that I couldn't justify keeping it in the board over something else. The lack of Meditates didn't affect me at all throughout the day, so I don't know if I'll be going back to 3-4. As good as they have been, I haven't been happy with them against blue decks due to Delver of Secrets resulting in an extra chunk of life or an extra opportunity to draw a Hymn to Tourach, so I'm beginning to find it rare to cast them outside of a combo turn.

The Flusterstorms ended up being incredible all day, both in the main and out of the board, so I was please with that, enough that I'll likely cut the 2nd md Pact for another md Flusterstorm. I ended up swapping the 2nd sb Flusterstorm for a Spell Pierce because of the amount of permanent hate I see locally, and it ended up being extremely relevant, as I ended up countering stuff from MUD, Sneak Attack, and Imperial Painter, so I think the slot can be justified. It also doesn't hurt against the aforementioned combo decks or Hymn to Tourach either.

The rest of the deck is rather self-explanatory. I explained earlier in the thread my thoughts on only 3 Candelabra, and I was happy with that. I still don't understand how people play the deck without it, but you can't convince everyone. I liked the maindeck Zenith because it took a lot of pressure off of Cunning Wish, which is huge because I often burn 1-2 early on for other things, and it also bailed me out of a few situations thanks to being maindeck for Merchant Scroll. Multiple Pacts were there for the anticipated amount of blue, but as mentioned before I'm likely going to swap one for another md Flusterstorm because it's better against Hymns.


Now that you bring it up, I think I've wished for a Meditate a grand total of one time in the several months I've played this deck. That doesn't seem like a good reason to keep it in the board (Probably +1 Flusterstorm). I wish for every other card pretty regularly. I still cast Meditate outside the combo turn reasonably often, but as you said that's becoming more difficult with Delver speeding up blue's clock so much. The reason I stay at three maindeck is it decreases fizzle percentages and allows rebuilding against Hymn when they don't have a fast clock (which happens often against Junk, Eva, and Deadguy which are all present in my meta).

I haven't been too unhappy with moving the maindeck Zenith to the board - but you raise a good point about over-stressing Cunning Wish. Drawing into the Zenith mid-combo is also pretty awesome as you generally have a ton of mana, it's just horrendous pre-combo (but so is Cunning Wish and often Meditate).

I need to test Flusterstorm maindeck, I'm just very apprehensive about adding more slots that are not draw spells or untappers. I usually try and minimize the fizzle percentage of the deck due to my tendency to get bad draws post-Spiral (I used to play with only 4 FOW as protection, the maindeck Pact is a recent addition).

I also think the deck basically requires Candelabra at this point, although I'm firmly in the "3 is better than 4" boat now (this may be due to me becoming a better Tide player and not needing a huge number of untap effects as a crutch).

[Di]

Now that you bring it up, I think I've wished for a Meditate a grand total of one time in the several months I've played this deck. That doesn't seem like a good reason to keep it in the board (Probably +1 Flusterstorm). I wish for every other card pretty regularly. I still cast Meditate outside the combo turn reasonably often, but as you said that's becoming more difficult with Delver speeding up blue's clock so much. The reason I stay at three maindeck is it decreases fizzle percentages and allows rebuilding against Hymn when they don't have a fast clock (which happens often against Junk, Eva, and Deadguy which are all present in my meta).

I haven't been too unhappy with moving the maindeck Zenith to the board - but you raise a good point about over-stressing Cunning Wish. Drawing into the Zenith mid-combo is also pretty awesome as you generally have a ton of mana, it's just horrendous pre-combo (but so is Cunning Wish and often Meditate).

I need to test Flusterstorm maindeck, I'm just very apprehensive about adding more slots that are not draw spells or untappers. I usually try and minimize the fizzle percentage of the deck due to my tendency to get bad draws post-Spiral (I used to play with only 4 FOW as protection, the maindeck Pact is a recent addition).

I also think the deck basically requires Candelabra at this point, although I'm firmly in the "3 is better than 4" boat now (this may be due to me becoming a better Tide player and not needing a huge number of untap effects as a crutch).

I'm glad you agree with removing it out of the board. It's just a wasted slot. As for casting Meditate outside of a combo turn, I did it once on Saturday, but it wasn't against a blue deck. I'm not arguing the card's power or anything as it's still great in the deck and great post-Spiral, but I do think it's much weaker now due to blue getting a huge speed boost from Delver. I also find it weaker against Hymn decks now despite the fact that it allows you to rebuild, because those decks now generally have access to Snapcaster Mage and can likely use that turn to either find another Hymn, or find a Snapcaster to Hymn you again.

I think the deck is at the point where it needs to focus more on resolving the first Time Spiral than worrying about it after resolving. Given most of the format is blue, having stronger answers to Hymn and such are likely better than a Meditate sitting in hand against a dangerous deck. I've been running 6-7 protection spells maindeck for a few months and rarely fizzle post-Spiral (I did once on Saturday, and have done it maybe 5 times total over the last 8 months), but I'm also rarely finding trouble with blue decks in the first place because of this. Given Hymn decks and fast combo like Reanimator are the biggest problems, I think it's wise to put a little more focus on them since the rest of the format is made up of easily winnable matchups.

[Doombear]

Hey,

been playing this deck for just two and a half months now and I have to say that it really is a blast. In my very first days of the "big blue" deck I faced the last days of mental misstep and I played a candless list with 12 cantrips, but after the b/r announcement i felt the need for the much courted artifact and thus i worked a playset of this wax into my wood. :tongue:

This is what I came up with and having played for the last three weeks:

4 High Tide
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm/Pact of Negation/Trade Routes

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
12 Island

SB:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
3 Defense Grid
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
1 Snap
1 Echoing truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Chain of Vapor

Recently i had the chance to play some local and bigger tournaments and here is what I accomplished with the above-mentioned list.

1. Small local Tournament in NRW (~35 players) 4-1 and top8

1st match GWr Maverick 2-1
2nd match Dredge 2-1
3rd match Belcher 2-1
4th match CanThresh 0-2 (had to mull to 5 two times due to land scarcity)
5th match MUD 2-1

2. Outpost Masters Brussel 5-2 missing top8 while being incredibly stupid

1st match BW Discard (Caleb's List) 2-0
2nd match UR Painter 2-0
3rd match Team America 1-2
4th match Fast Zoo 2-0
5th match Fast Zoo 2-0
6th match Burn 2-0
7th match BubbleHulk 1-2 (i had 2 hours of sleep the night before and thus received two game losses due to game rule violations (pain in the ass, if you play mtg for over 10 yrs and forget e.g. to exile cunning wish)

so the deck went 6-1, but the pilot hasn't got the urge to do the same. :laugh:

Interestingly, the two Fast Zoo decks both forced me to combo in my 3rd turn due to lethal damage on the board. Same did the Burn player to me and in all 6 games the candlelabras were mandatory so I strongly recommend playing them.

3. local tournament in NRW with 76 players. 5-2 and top8

1st match Dredge 2-1
2nd match GWu Bant or Maverick 2-0
3rd match GW Maverick 2-0
4th match GWr Maverick 2-0
5th match Reanimator 0-2
6th match Reanimator 1-2
7th match CounterTop Nought 2-1

I also attended the Dutch Legacy Champs but I totally scrubbed out and dropped, because my opponents were all going completely rampant. For example Team America, which had 1st turn seize, 2nd turn hymn (pierced), 3rd turn hymn (resp meditate) and 4th turn hymn (yeah) and so I comboed on the 5th turn right after he dropped Liliana of the Veil. He opened a grip of 3 FoW, 3 blue cards and a Snare, nuff said. =)

notes concerning my list:
No love for ponder? Yeah, I feel that ponder is the worst of the three cantrips and without having good access to shuffle effects I ended up not playing ponder. In my belief this deck is stronger with cantrips that smooth out the draw in the first three turns and in my own experience I had too much situations, when I was looking for 1-2 different type of cards and only found one in the ponder pile (for example, a land) and being forced to draw the two others as well, which caused major pain.

3 Surgical Extractions/3 Defense Grid in the SB are part of two of the three most commonly executed boarding plans for me.
vs. "Combo" I side out 1 CoT, 1 Intuition and a High Tide/2nd Candle to board in 3 Extractions, especially vs. Dredge. Extracting Cabal Therapy often grants the win.
vs. Tempo/Control I side out 1 CoT, 1 Intuition and a High Tide to bring in 3 Defense Grid

No Brain Freeze, I killed my last opp via freezing him weeks ago and although having it in the SB for some time I never wished for it so keeping it in there is not justified.


In the next weeks I want to test Flusterstorm in the maindeck, as I am quiete afraid of 1st-turn-DelverThresh and/or Team America. I guess that I will be cutting Spell Pierce for them and leaving one FS in the side.

For those of you, who are interested in adding Snapcaster Mage to Spiral Tide, i played a list with 1 Meditate, 4 Snapcaster and 10 Cantrips in a small GPTrial for Amsterdam where 19 players showed up. In the swiss I faced Affinity (2-0), Enchantress (2-1), DarkThresh (1-2), UBr ANT (2-1) and DGA (ID, 2-0 in test game) and in the quarterfinals Enchantress (2-1), semifinals DarkThresh (opponent from 3rd round) 2-1 and lost in the finals against UBr ANT (opponent from 4th round).

Was definately a blast as well, but playing Snapcaster heavily increased my chance of fizzling after Time Spiral so I dropped the idea soon afterwards.

questions/comments, all welcome- hopefully not too much content, also: sorry for bad english and potential mistakes. :smile:

best,
Doombear

[xfxf]

How do you guys play against UB or UBr ANT? Those Duresses and Thoughtseizes bait out or take away your counters. Then when they are going for the kill you don't have much to stop them. Plus with all that discard and Gitaxian probes they have a better idea on when to go for it and how to bluff you.

I find it easier to play against TES since Orim's Chant doesn't give them information nor can take away your combo pieces but discard is annoying.

[Admiral_Arzar]

How do you guys play against UB or UBr ANT? Those Duresses and Thoughtseizes bait out or take away your counters. Then when they are going for the kill you don't have much to stop them. Plus with all that discard and Gitaxian probes they have a better idea on when to go for it and how to bluff you.

I find it easier to play against TES since Orim's Chant doesn't give them information nor can take away your combo pieces but discard is annoying.

Board in Flusterstorms, use Merchant Scroll to find protection, and hide key cards from discard with Brainstorm. Also, if they aren't playing white, feel free to just go for it at the earliest opportunity (it's not like they're going to stop you).

[Doombear]

I believe it's the other way around. I prefer being paired against Combo without Chants, because when they cast chant, they definately need a response and it somehow feels like having put a knife at our throat. Obviously that doesn't feel so good. They also tend to be harder to play against during our combo, since we have to cantrip/tutor for countermagic, if the Spiral gives our opponent a chant/silence.

When playing against chantless combo I try to get hold of a hand that has brainstorm, countermagic and scrolls. Combopieces aren't that necessary on the opening grip, also scrolling aggressively for Force of Will/Flusterstorm worked fine for me so far.

€(too late)

[Admiral_Arzar]

I believe it's the other way around. I prefer being paired against Combo without Chants, because when they cast chant, they definately need a response and it somehow feels like having put a knife at our throat. Obviously that doesn't feel so good. They also tend to be harder to play against during our combo, since we have to cantrip/tutor for countermagic, if the Spiral gives our opponent a chant/silence.

When playing against chantless combo I try to get hold of a hand that has brainstorm, countermagic and scrolls. Combopieces aren't that necessary on the opening grip, also scrolling aggressively for Force of Will/Flusterstorm worked fine for me so far.

€(too late)

Against a chant-playing opponent, Turnabouting them on their end step to tap out their lands can blow them out (assuming they didn't drop artifact mana to prevent this).

[Pich]

Here's my most recent list.

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Turnabout
4 Force of Will

1 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

4 Counterspell
2 Retraced Image

4 Flooded Strand
14 Island

Sideboard
1 Dismember
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyll's Recall

1 Pact of Negation
1 Meditate

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze

3 Vendilion Clique
3 Spell Pierce

I play it more like a control deck, i like having 4 classic Counterspell in my 60, it fits to my playstyle. This list isn't made to race Zoo decks and go off on turn 3 all the time, theres no Candles, no Clouds, no Snaps. I builded it in order to have a game against the format as a whole. I eat FoW decks for Breakfast. I am winning the Brainstorm mirror and the combo mirror on a constant basis so far. Beside that, i'm soft to Hymn+pressure G1 just like any combo-ish deck, and i don't like my Reanimator MU but no one good plays it at my 2 local stores.

[troopatroop]

This has probably been covered, but why no Ideas Unbound? I'm sure there's a good reason, but it escapes me.

I guess it's not good settup at all, but during the combo turn? I suppose that doesn't matter as much?

[feline]

Between 4 brainstorm 4 ponder 2-4 pre-ordain 4 merchant scroll 3 cunning wish 3 meditate 4 time spiral 1 blue sun's zenith & 1 intuition, that is usually enough and more card draw is basically, not required at that point.

The other argument I could see making would be to run Ideas Unbound IN PLACE of Meditate, however, Ideas unbound draws 1 less card, is a sorcery and not an instant, and while it does cost UU instead of 2U, the turn you're going off, the mana cost ratio is not that big of a deal when have access to so much in your pool. As for when you're not going off & the drawbacks come into play, you can cast meditate at the end of their turn if you know their next turn won't be lethal for you. With Ideas Unbound, you have to discard 3 cards, while it would obviously be your worst 3 cards you'd let go, when that does come into play, you're not gaining card advantage, & Ideas Unbound doesn't even replace itself.

[capitacom]

I have been testing a version of spiral tide with red splash for the past in flames combo, with three past in flames in the main and sideboard (with two intuition), and two time spiral in the sideboard. Burning wish gives you a two mana tutor for both time spiral and past in flames, allowing you to also go for the consistent four land high tide time spiral combo as well as the faster but more risky past in flames combo. You can board out the past in flames combo after game one, bypassing graveyard hate they will probably board in. You can use burning wish to get eye of nowhere to bounce any permanent, earthquake to get rid of annoying hate bears (not stopped by mother of runes either), firespout for board control, ideas unbound as a meditate substitue, and finally empty the warrens and grapeshot as additional kills to brainfreeze. Although I'm still fine-tuning the list, I think it has potential as it has given me more outs and burning wish is a very powerful tutor on the same level as merchant scroll.

[Pich]

Why don't you play a real Dark Ritual storm deck at that point..

The point of playing High Tide is to have 42 Blue Cards to support Force Of Wills, to have a Wasteland-proof manabase, to be able to take the control role in FoW mirrors, not to splash RED for something unecessary.

If the metagame swaps to some CB-domined metagame, i guess the 8 Fetch / 1 Tropical manabase splash for Krosan Grips in the board would be good, but i don't get the point of splashing Red for crap like Earthquake and Past in Flames.


Plus, you don't even take full advantage of Past in Flames by choosing to play it in a deck that does not run Lion Eye's Diamond. Shame on you.

[Patrunkenphat7]

OK for people who play the deck a lot:

I have recently decided to go with 3 Flusterstorm in my SB over Spell Pierce (these are the only good choices for this slot imo). Is that a good idea? It makes me pretty cold to Countertop... But it just seems like the right choice for pretty much every other matchup.

[Di]

OK for people who play the deck a lot:

I have recently decided to go with 3 Flusterstorm in my SB over Spell Pierce (these are the only good choices for this slot imo). Is that a good idea? It makes me pretty cold to Countertop... But it just seems like the right choice for pretty much every other matchup.

I'm actually running 2 Flusterstorm main, with a 3rd in the side and a sideboard Spell Pierce as well (my total protection configuration is 4 Force, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Pact main, then sideboard 1 Pact, 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Spell Pierce, 2 Defense Grid).

I mentioned this earlier in the thread not too long ago, and I feel it's the right move to run Flusterstorms instead, and I also argue they're strong enough to run in the maindeck to strengthen your game 1's against bad matchups. Flusterstorm is just much better against Hymn to Tourach and other early spells like Entomb or other storm combo, and it's still very good later in the game where Spell Pierce is garbage. I still opt to run a single Spell Pierce in my sideboard to help against Counterbalance, combo, and permanent-based hate, but it isn't as good as Flusterstorm in the matchups you want it for. Sure you're slightly cold to Counterbalance, but that's such a rare matchup these days so it isn't as big of an issue, and you still can run a Wipe Away in the board as well. You're just much better off running Flusterstorms and focusing on more common matchups than worrying about a deck that you aren't very likely to face in an 8-9 round tournament.

[flrn]

There was a large Legacy tournament yesterday near Frankfurt. 242 people attended to give it a try to win a Black Lotus. I also attended, finished 9th place with a 7-2 record and the best opponent score among the 7-2 people. Here is the list and the matchups:

4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
1 Intuition
3 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
4 Turnabout

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral

3 Flooded Strand
12 Island
3 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Snap
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Wipe Away

Round 1 UW Stoneblade 2-1
Round 2 GW Maverick 2-0
Round 3 Reanimator 2-0
Round 4 UW Stoneblade 2-0
Round 5 Aggro Loam 2-1
Round 6 UW Stoneblade 1-2
Round 7 Canadian Threshold 1-2
Round 8 Canadian Threshold 2-1
Round 9 Canadian Threshold 2-1

Deck is awesome.

[ScatmanX]

Deck is awesome.
I have to agree. Congratulations.

Is it possible that you might right a report? It would be a nice read.

Really liked your decklist. Would you change anything after this tournament?

[xfxf]

Congratulations, how did you tackle the Reanimator match? When I play against it they have Iona every time.

[flrn]

I have to agree. Congratulations.

Is it possible that you might right a report? It would be a nice read.

Really liked your decklist. Would you change anything after this tournament?

I wouldn't change a single card. The current version fits my playstyle very well.

A report can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22941-Heartbreaking-9th-place-at-quot-Win-a-Lotus-quot-Legacy-cup

[xfxf]

Did you play against Sneak&Show with this list? I like it against pretty much anything but combo. Other combo decks seem harder to beat with almost an equal amount of protection and a faster kill.

[Pich]

Sneak Show for my version is easy shit, what you want to do is play the Control Role (you have to play MD Counterspells tho..) accumulate Land-Drops and play a Draw-Go game using Meditates to your Advantage. (The more you play Draw-Go against them, the more your chance or winning increases, since they have a bunch of Blank draws and almost all the spells you are going to draw are going to help you to win..)

My two cents!

[xfxf]

I'm going with maindeck Flusterstorms since they are great against RUG, Delver, UW, BUG etc. Counterspells are very limited but you really need them when you need them.

[Scordata]

Increasing Confusion was just spoiled.

Thoughts?

[Piceli89]

BSZ is just better, also because of Merchant Scroll.

[.nemesis]

Increasing Confusion was just spoiled.

Thoughts?

Brain Freeze is by far the better win condition because you don't *need* to generate absurd amounts of mana to kill and because you can tutor for it with any of your 6-7 tutor effects. Also Brain Freeze is pretty close to uncounterable.

[lebarion]

Hi all,
I went to a 4K 121 people tournament in São José dos Campos, Brasil, with Spiral Tides. My team (Super Bizarros) attended with 9 integrants:

ScatmanX – Monored Goblins
Lebarion – Spiral Tide
Shimi – TES
Alex – TES
Fuzzy – Lands
Nuclear – GW Maverick-like
Luiz – GW Maverick-like
Maurão – GWu Maverick-like
Mayckol – GWu Maverick-like

The tournament was very good for us: 6 of us went to top 16, 2 to top8, and 1 to top 4. I did top 8 with a 6-1 record, loosing in the top 8 to... Punishing Maverick. Yeah, really.

Here is a small report (I'm bad at remembering details):

Round 1 - Roger with UW Stoneblade
Pretty easy games. He played Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull both games; I'm not sure he didn't have more useful swords or was just paying the default strategy. He didn't draw counterspells after the Spirals. Actually, in the second game he lost with 3 Stoneforge Mystics in his hand.

Round 2 - Ricardo (Manowar) with Dredge.
He starts with Putrid Imp, and I'm not very happy. The only grave hate I had was a single Surgical Extraction. I play some lands and Brainstorm to Force a Breakthrough, he Cabal Therapies me for 2 High Tides :cry: . I draw a High Tide and some lands, with a Cunning Wish in hand (that could either be a Echoing Truth or a Surgical Extraction). He's dredging and making some zombie tokens. At one life, I draw Time Spiral and win.
Game two he mulligans, I start with a good hand. I think I took damage from my fetches only this game.

Round 3 - André with GWu Maverick
Game 1 I win just like it should be. Game 2 he plays Canonist and Gaddock, and if I remember correctly, a Mother of Runes. I couldn't bounce everything and I lose.
Game 3 I did what probably was my worst mistake in my Magic life: he had Canonist in play, I Wished for Hurkyl's Recall in his end of turn. In my turn, I thought I had 6 lands in play and play the Recall. Then I look at my 3 untaped lands, then I look at my hand: High Tide, Time Spiral, and a lot of non-Turnabouts. Yeah, I died.

Round 4 - Elton - Punishing Maverick
This guy is new to Legacy and don't know exactly how Spiral Tide plays.
Game 1 he wins the die roll and starts with Noble. I play Island, Preordain. He plays something (maybe a Stoneforge Mystic). I play fetch, go. By this time I had a lot of cantrips in hand; I wanted to Brainstorm at end of his turn and maybe crack the fetch; or remand anything he plays to gain tempo. He plays nothing, I play brainstorm, find a Time Spiral and a Merchant Scroll, returns two Ponders to top and crack the fetch. He plays Aven Mindcensor. None of my two fetches found the lands I needed.
Games two and three were more "normal"; I played around Mindcensor and he misplayed at some point, deciding not to use Green Sun Zenith for Gaddock thinking it could do more harm to him than to me...

Round 5 - Mariano with UR Delver
I have never faced this deck before. At first I was afraid it was Canadian Thresh, but then Goblin Guides appeared. I comboed with protection both games. Funny thing is that I Brain Freezed him for something like 54 cards in round two, with 7 life. He didn't concede, so showed him Merchant Scroll, and told him I was going to scroll for Cunning Wish and wish for Blue Sun's Zenith, and he still didn't concede. I did as I said, and the he decided to count the storm and verify the Brain Freeze copies again...

Round 6 - Leandro with UBg ANT
I didn't know what he's playing. He started with some fetch, a Bayou and a Duress. Before I could think he was playing Junk, he IGG-looped and killed me.
Game two I think I mulliganed for counters, he Duressed me 3 or 4 times, and Surgially Extracted my FoW. The game went long, he played IGG but I had Mindbreak Trap and Flusterstorm. He conceded.
Game two he had less discard. The game went long, too. At some point he played Autumn's Veil, I had Force, Remand and Mindbreak Trap in hand. I let it resolve, and when he played Ad Nauseam, I Mindbreak Trapped it. Judge called 5 turns, and all I've had in hand was a Cunning Wish. I wished for Intuition end of turn, and draw Brainstorm, that shows me Merchant Scroll. Merchant Scroll for Tide, intuition for Time Spiral, win.

Round 7 - Lucas (Giggs) with Belcher.
I knew what he was playing. My opening 7 had Force, but only one land and no cantrips. I mulliganed for a better 6 with lands and Merchant Scroll, but no Force. He played Gitaxian Probe, Chrome Mox imprinting Burning Wish and Rite of Flame, but then realizes the math was wrong :tongue:. (Man, I'm good with this deck!) I scroll for a counter, and combo eventually.
Round two my opening seven was better, with lands, a FoW and other good cards. He passes his first turn, I play Island, go. He plays Gitaxian Probe and starts with Chrome Mox and Rite of Flame. I counter, he removes Simian Spirit Guide and Pyroblast. With RR from Rite of Flame, he does... nothing, and passes the turn. Apparently, my skills impressed him so much that he couldn't do math anymore... :cool: . I draw more counters and combo eventually.

Top 8 - Leozerah with Punishing Maverick
No surprises in game 1, I win pretty easlily.
Then comes the part when God just says "you're not going to win this tournament". Everything was going fine, I bounce some hate bear and do 10 storm BEFORE casting Time Spiral. Then, I draw 4 lands, High Tide, some bounce, FoW. I pass the turn. He plays another hate bear. I draw... Time Spiral, like a boss! I bounce the bear, play High Tide, and Time Spiral. I shuffle A LOT. No, more than this. And draw nothing: lands, Wipe Away and Turnabout. That's fine, I still have game 3.
Game three started fine, just like game two. But instead of me fizzling, my opponent draw Gaddock, Canonist and Choke, and only one Snap for bouncing them. Good game.

I'm very satisfied with this deck. My list is similar to flrn's, with +3 Remand, +1 Polluted Delta, +1 Brain Freeze, +1 Ponder, -3 Meditate, -3 Flusterstorm maindeck, and -3 Surgical Extraction, +1 Snap, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Rebuld sideboard. I missed the Meditates a little bit, but they didn't make the difference. I was expecting Affinity, otherwise wouldn't use 2 bounces for artifacts.

Hope you guys keep playing this and trying to improve the deck. I think this deck is pretty good in the current environment.

[apistat_commander]

I recently picked up the deck and have been a decent amount of success in testing. I am sure that I am boring my opponents to tears, but I imagine that I will combo more quickly once I get a few hundred games under my belt.

Is there a consensus on running a MD kill mechanism? If I were to run a MD win con, is Blue Sun's Zenith or Brain Freeze best for a Candleless build? I have been leaning toward Brain Freeze as generating lethal storm is typically easier to do than generating enough mana. Also BF is much harder to counter if you can't manage to find protection when going for the kill.

Here is my current list:

Combo:
4x High Tide
4x Turnabout
4x Time Spiral
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish
1x Intuition

Protection:
4x Force of Will
2x Flusterstorm
1x Pact of Negation

Draw(15):
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
4x Brainstorm
3x Meditate

Lands(18):
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Misty Rainforest
12x Island

Sideboard:
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Defense Grid
2x Flusterstorm
1x Wipe Away
1x Snap
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Meditate
1x Hurkyl’s Recall
1x Brain Freeze
1x Blue Sun’s Zenith

I find myself leaning pretty hard on Merchant Scroll -> Meditate in order to avoid fizzling while going off but I don't know if that is the deck or simply my inexperience. I haven't tried to fit Pact of Negation into the SB because I didn't know exactly when I would want to Wish for it and it seems like Flusterstorm is superior to board-in in the matches where you need more MD counters. Is Mindbreak Trap an option here?

[Di]

I recently picked up the deck and have been a decent amount of success in testing. I am sure that I am boring my opponents to tears, but I imagine that I will combo more quickly once I get a few hundred games under my belt.

Is there a consensus on running a MD kill mechanism? If I were to run a MD win con, is Blue Sun's Zenith or Brain Freeze best for a Candleless build? I have been leaning toward Brain Freeze as generating lethal storm is typically easier to do than generating enough mana. Also BF is much harder to counter if you can't manage to find protection when going for the kill.


There's no consensus on a MD kill mechanism, but this is dependant on the version of deck and playstyle/preference. Candelabra versions will generally favor Blue Sun's Zenith as it's much easier to ramp up and get value out of it and also easier to make it lethal, but I've seen Candelabra builds that do and don't have it main. Without Candelabra, Brain Freeze is a better bet because it can be rather difficult to generate mana for a lethal BSZ. Being counterable is essentially a non-issue though, as by the time you'd be able to cast a lethal BSZ you likely have a handful of counterspells yourself.


Here is my current list:

(list)

I find myself leaning pretty hard on Merchant Scroll -> Meditate in order to avoid fizzling while going off but I don't know if that is the deck or simply my inexperience. I haven't tried to fit Pact of Negation into the SB because I didn't know exactly when I would want to Wish for it and it seems like Flusterstorm is superior to board-in in the matches where you need more MD counters. Is Mindbreak Trap an option here?

Regarding your play and reliance on Meditate, I think that has to do with both the deck and your inexperience. Looking through your list, there are two things I've noticed that can explain this:

1. No sideboard Intuition. This causes a greater reliance on Merchant Scroll (for Intuition) and Meditate because it means your Cunning Wishes cannot reliably help you continue going off or even go off in the first place, almost making them dead/weak cards before and during your combo turn. By running the sideboard Intuition, it greatly increases the deck's consistency and strength of Cunning Wish by giving you the availability of tutoring for Time Spiral and High Tide through it. Personally, I would argue that the sideboard Intuition is more important than a maindeck one for this reason, because it allows you to access Time Spiral both from Merchant Scroll and Cunning Wish, not solely Cunning Wish.

2. No solid sideboard untapper. Again, this goes to show how weak your Cunning Wishes are because they can't reliably help you keep going. This is one of the flaws of a candle-less build and an issue that is inherant of the design of the deck, as you're essentially forced to run 4 maindeck Turnabout. I suppose you could replace one with a Cloud of Faeries and ship the 4th to the board, or run a sideboard Reality Spasm. Sure, you have a Snap, but that not only is a weak untapper to try to continue going off, but it also turns on an opponent's removal. Last thing you want is to try to Snap an opponent's creature to gain mana and they StP in response, although this is more of a game 1 issue. But regardless, the lack of candles/extra untappers forces you to change the way the deck is played, and makes it much more difficult to continue going off. Given these issues, you essentially have two options on how to handle them:

- Play more untap effects, either from what I mentioned above or by acquiring Candelabras.
- Slow down your combo turn. If you're having difficulty comboing completely, it could be because you try to go off too early. It isn't always necessary to go off on turn 4 if you have the ability to, especially considering the huge differences between 4 lands and 5 lands (and so on). You'll have a much easier time going off with this build if you try to go off with more lands in play. Granted, this can be risky if you can't protect yourself from dying an additional turn, but if you can, it's almost always better to wait the extra turn solely because of land drops.


The sideboard Pact of Negation is rather important for additional protection when you don't want to spend mana for it. It's not something that you will ever board in, but it's purpose is purely to act as a free Force of Will sans the card disadvantage if you need to Wish for it. In a majority of situations, if you're wishing for a protection spell, it is better than Flusterstorm because that extra mana can be a significant difference, especially for you given you don't have many untap effects. Granted, Flusterstorm has its advantages in similar situations, but the two have entirely different roles out of the sideboard. And yes, the Flusterstorm is something you board in for matchups you'd like it. As for Mindbreak Trap, I don't think the card is worth a slot. It's rare that you'd want it against blue decks as it's conditional unlike Pact of Negation, and Flusterstorm is generally better against storm, not to mention better against everything else.

[apistat_commander]

1. No sideboard Intuition. This causes a greater reliance on Merchant Scroll (for Intuition) and Meditate because it means your Cunning Wishes cannot reliably help you continue going off or even go off in the first place, almost making them dead/weak cards before and during your combo turn. By running the sideboard Intuition, it greatly increases the deck's consistency and strength of Cunning Wish by giving you the availability of tutoring for Time Spiral and High Tide through it. Personally, I would argue that the sideboard Intuition is more important than a maindeck one for this reason, because it allows you to access Time Spiral both from Merchant Scroll and Cunning Wish, not solely Cunning Wish.

This is interesting, as I end up boarding out Intuition in many G2s because it makes me so vulnerable to SE/Extirpate/etc. So would the SB Intuition just be for G1 situations to help me go off?


2. No solid sideboard untapper. Again, this goes to show how weak your Cunning Wishes are because they can't reliably help you keep going. This is one of the flaws of a candle-less build and an issue that is inherant of the design of the deck, as you're essentially forced to run 4 maindeck Turnabout. I suppose you could replace one with a Cloud of Faeries and ship the 4th to the board, or run a sideboard Reality Spasm. Sure, you have a Snap, but that not only is a weak untapper to try to continue going off, but it also turns on an opponent's removal. Last thing you want is to try to Snap an opponent's creature to gain mana and they StP in response, although this is more of a game 1 issue. But regardless, the lack of candles/extra untappers forces you to change the way the deck is played, and makes it much more difficult to continue going off. Given these issues, you essentially have two options on how to handle them:

To be honest, I really haven't had too many problems going off once I get started. I do have problems when I brick off Time Spiral or Meditate but that is just an inherent risk with the deck. I am sure that I have lost games that more skilled pilots would have won, but I am not fizzling a huge amount of the time.

I am tweaking my list based mainly on flrn's list and the list that Top 8'ed the same tourney he got 9th in. Yes, the combo certainly is a bit slower but running more maindeck protection makes it easier to go off before you die. I have recognized that not having a Wishable untap effect is a flaw in my deck but it was my understanding that Cloud of Faeries was considered sub-optimal even in Candleless builds. I have considered the following changes to my list:

MD:
- 1x Turnabout (for sure) and then cutting some mixture of 1x Ponder, 1x Meditate, or 1x Flusterstorm
+ 3x Cloud of Faeries

SB:
- 3x Defense Grid
+ 1x Turnabout, 1x Flusterstorm, 1x Snap

This way I can board in two Snaps to go with CoF in post board games where I need additional speed and/or expect hate bears. However I wonder if CoF is really going to increase the consistency of the deck to the point that the other cuts are worthwhile. The problem is that everything I would cut for CoF is useful both before and after I go off and CoF is really only useful in the turn I am going off (outside of corner cases like Dredge). Additionally CoF makes the deck more vulnerable to Spell Snare, something which it is largely immune to currently. Maybe the solution is to simply recognize that the deck is going to be a turn slower and that will lose you some games, but that the inconsistency that CoF would introduce to the deck would likely lose you more.

[Di]

This is interesting, as I end up boarding out Intuition in many G2s because it makes me so vulnerable to SE/Extirpate/etc. So would the SB Intuition just be for G1 situations to help me go off?

Technically it can be used for any games although you're not going to run that risk if you expect Extirpate post-board, but Surgical Extraction isn't as big a concern as you can counter it. But it's obviously best game 1 for these situations. Still, having access to it is important regardless of what game it is and what the opponent may have.



To be honest, I really haven't had too many problems going off once I get started. I do have problems when I brick off Time Spiral or Meditate but that is just an inherent risk with the deck. I am sure that I have lost games that more skilled pilots would have won, but I am not fizzling a huge amount of the time.

I am tweaking my list based mainly on flrn's list and the list that Top 8'ed the same tourney he got 9th in. Yes, the combo certainly is a bit slower but running more maindeck protection makes it easier to go off before you die. I have recognized that not having a Wishable untap effect is a flaw in my deck but it was my understanding that Cloud of Faeries was considered sub-optimal even in Candleless builds. I have considered the following changes to my list:

MD:
- 1x Turnabout (for sure) and then cutting some mixture of 1x Ponder, 1x Meditate, or 1x Flusterstorm
+ 3x Cloud of Faeries

SB:
- 3x Defense Grid
+ 1x Turnabout, 1x Flusterstorm, 1x Snap

This way I can board in two Snaps to go with CoF in post board games where I need additional speed and/or expect hate bears. However I wonder if CoF is really going to increase the consistency of the deck to the point that the other cuts are worthwhile. The problem is that everything I would cut for CoF is useful both before and after I go off and CoF is really only useful in the turn I am going off (outside of corner cases like Dredge). Additionally CoF makes the deck more vulnerable to Spell Snare, something which it is largely immune to currently. Maybe the solution is to simply recognize that the deck is going to be a turn slower and that will lose you some games, but that the inconsistency that CoF would introduce to the deck would likely lose you more.

Of course there is always the brick on Spiral or Meditate, but given the lower density of untap effects in your build it's more likely. Flrn's list also doesn't really run much more maindeck protection than most lists I see (I run 7 myself: 4 FoW, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Pact, and the average these days is ~6), so that isn't an issue inherant to that specific list, but rather the deck overall.

From the way you originally worded it, it sounded like you leaned hard on Meditates to avoid fizzling which essentially translates to you being out of gas a.k.a untappers. Hence, why I figured that was the issue. Cloud of Faeries is indeed sub-optimal, but your options are incredibly limited in the first place if you can't acquire Candelabras. I'm not necessarily suggesting you make the changes you proposed, but if you think it will alleviate the issues you're having then it's worth a shot. Or, you could go option2 that I mentioned (and the other solution you also brought up) which is re-evaluate the way you're playing the deck so you don't go into situations where you'd need to worry about it as often. Although I will say you're better off speaking to someone who runs a Candle-less version of the deck on how to approach this, as I've always played with Candelabra and thus my understanding on how the deck runs and is played is a bit different.

[flrn]

I am tweaking my list based mainly on flrn's list and the list that Top 8'ed the same tourney he got 9th in.

He basically took an older version of my list and added a second Extraction to the sideboard and the fourth Ponder to the main. Other than that, the differences between our lists in that tournament are basically the changes I made in a time span of two months.


MD:
- 1x Turnabout (for sure) and then cutting some mixture of 1x Ponder, 1x Meditate, or 1x Flusterstorm
+ 3x Cloud of Faeries

SB:
- 3x Defense Grid
+ 1x Turnabout, 1x Flusterstorm, 1x Snap

Please, don't do that.


Technically it can be used for any games although you're not going to run that risk if you expect Extirpate post-board, but Surgical Extraction isn't as big a concern as you can counter it. But it's obviously best game 1 for these situations. Still, having access to it is important regardless of what game it is and what the opponent may have.

Reading through your comments, I get why you're suggesting those changes. You are using a different playstyle to approach the deck. You're going all out on Time Spiral's to abuse them in the most efficient way possible. I'm not doing that. I try to avoid casting Time Spiral after the first one, due to the possibility to brick. Time Spiral is my enabler to start the combo and a backup plan, if I fail to combo my opponent out with the stuff I have going.


Flrn's list also doesn't really run much more maindeck protection than most lists I see (I run 7 myself: 4 FoW, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Pact, and the average these days is ~6), so that isn't an issue inherant to that specific list, but rather the deck overall.

That is propably right for your metagame. Depending on the matchup I sometimes run between nine and ten protection spells postboard.


From the way you originally worded it, it sounded like you leaned hard on Meditates to avoid fizzling which essentially translates to you being out of gas a.k.a untappers. Hence, why I figured that was the issue. Cloud of Faeries is indeed sub-optimal, but your options are incredibly limited in the first place if you can't acquire Candelabras. I'm not necessarily suggesting you make the changes you proposed, but if you think it will alleviate the issues you're having then it's worth a shot. Or, you could go option2 that I mentioned (and the other solution you also brought up) which is re-evaluate the way you're playing the deck so you don't go into situations where you'd need to worry about it as often. Although I will say you're better off speaking to someone who runs a Candle-less version of the deck on how to approach this, as I've always played with Candelabra and thus my understanding on how the deck runs and is played is a bit different.

It's not about not being able to aquire Candelabra of Tawnos. It is my understanding, that you currently don't need Candelabra of Tawnos. They function as a ritual effect to speed up the deck to make a turn three kill more consistent. Cloud of Faeries do suck. Don't play them. And yeah, you are right. I'm trying to avoid to have Cunning Wish in my hand pre combo. And I don't brick that often as you might think. I played five tournaments since November and I ended up going 17-6-3 with one intentional draw. And I didn't lose any games, due to not having Candelabra in my list. As I already mentioned, I intend to play my deck in a Solidarity'ish way after I resolved the first Time Spiral. And it works out for me.

[Pich]

Won a 32player tournament yesterday with this

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Turnabout
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Cunning Wish
3 Counterspell
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
*1 Scalding Tarn
12 Island

SB
4 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Pact of Negation
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Echoing Thruth
1 Brain Freeze


2-1 VS UW Stoneblade
1-2 VS GWr Maverick (He had all the hate you can imagine in postboard games.)
2-0 vs GW Maverick
2-0 vs Random
2-0 vs Elves Combo

Top 8
2-1 vs Affinity (REBUILDED 5 TIMES IN 3 GAMES!)
2-1 vs Round 2 GWr Maverick
2-0 vs UW Stoneblade (I won game 2 with Vendilion Clique beats.)

I like Counterspell in the deck, the one-of Top was there because it helps vs Hymn to Tourach decks which are a part of my local metagame, just didn't play against those decks. I still liked having a Top in play in long games. I had 3 Wipe Aways in the sideboard for Pyrostatic Pillar purposes (Yes, my metagame has a lot of crappy decks) and i liked to be able to pull out wins against Mother+Teeg.

[Di]

Reading through your comments, I get why you're suggesting those changes. You are using a different playstyle to approach the deck. You're going all out on Time Spiral's to abuse them in the most efficient way possible. I'm not doing that. I try to avoid casting Time Spiral after the first one, due to the possibility to brick. Time Spiral is my enabler to start the combo and a backup plan, if I fail to combo my opponent out with the stuff I have going.


That's not it at all, and I think you misunderstood my point. We're 100% on the same page here. I always avoid casting Time Spiral beyond the first if possible for not only the same reason you mentioned, but because the more you do it the more chances the opponent has to stop you, at least in the event of blue decks, or post-sideboard Mindbreak Traps or whatever. It's very rare for me to play more than one in a game, and only really happens if I'm forced to.

Time Spiral is the best enabler to start the combo in the deck. I use Intuition as a means to get to Time Spiral in the first place, not to use it more than once. That's also a majority of the reason why you (or him, or whomever else) is running an Intuition in the maindeck, to tutor for it. I just feel Intuition is better out of the sideboard because it makes it easier to access thanks to Cunning Wish. It allows you to tutor for it either through Cunning Wish or Merchant Scroll, not just Merchant Scroll, which is huge for consistency, both in finding Time Spiral and in finding High Tide if that issue comes up. That flexibility is rather crucial and plays a huge role in managing your plays and decisions pre-combo as well.


That is propably right for your metagame. Depending on the matchup I sometimes run between nine and ten protection spells postboard.

Honestly, it's likely right for any/every metagame. I pretty much go to 8-10 post-board for any blue, Hymn to Tourach, or combo matchup.


It's not about not being able to aquire Candelabra of Tawnos. It is my understanding, that you currently don't need Candelabra of Tawnos. They function as a ritual effect to speed up the deck to make a turn three kill more consistent. Cloud of Faeries do suck. Don't play them. And yeah, you are right. I'm trying to avoid to have Cunning Wish in my hand pre combo. And I don't brick that often as you might think. I played five tournaments since November and I ended up going 17-6-3 with one intentional draw. And I didn't lose any games, due to not having Candelabra in my list. As I already mentioned, I intend to play my deck in a Solidarity'ish way after I resolved the first Time Spiral. And it works out for me.

I feel you have a misunderstanding of the role of Candelabra. Even though it makes a turn three kill more possible doesn't mean that's the right play, and it rarely is. Unless you're going off with multiple High Tides pre-Spiral on turn three, it's almost always wrong to attempt it. The probability of fizzling turn three is too high that it isn't logical to attempt it most of the time. Candelabra is, however, the best tool to complement Turnabout to continue comboing, and generate mana for lethal BSZ, or to use it for yourself for 10+. It allows you to get tremendous value out of that card, not to mention additional value out of your Time Spirals. I'm not going to have another argument for or against the card because that horse has been beaten to death. But I will say that it opens things up for the deck in places that were otherwise unaccessible.

On Cunning Wish, why avoid them, when you could get maximum value out of them otherwise? If you have the option to either turn it into a protection spell, draw spell, untapper, or Time Spiral, that turns it into one of the strongest cards in your deck. Otherwise, it's nothing but a glorified utility spell in a deck that would be better off using it to its fullest potential. I'm not surprised you said you'd avoid them pre-combo, because they don't do anything for you then! On the other hand, utilizing the sideboard to maximize your options and solutions essentially turns Cunning Wish into Merchant Scroll 5-7. How could you not want to do that given how much stronger that makes the deck, and what good reason would you have to not do so?

Now, I never assumed you'd brick often or anything of the sort, nor am I attacking the list. And I imagine we probably play the deck in a similar fashion. Once you know what you're doing with it, it's pretty fluid to how it works regardless of the design of the list, so it's likely that all good High Tide players play the deck closely. I merely remarked on someone else's comments regarding their play decisions on avoiding fizzling using a similar list, and came up with what I figured were the most probable reasons why. Which, in all likelihood, are accurate. But as I also mentioned, an option would be to just re-adjust the pace and play of the deck for him, which is likely his best option. You've played the deck long enough to know what you're doing with your respective list, so that issue doesn't really concern you. But if a new player picks up the deck, they have a much weaker understanding of it, what's at their disposal, and the math involved. By figuring out what the root of their issues are, they have a better chance of correcting their mistakes. That's all I was trying to do, to help. Not to sound trollish, but you avoided that entirely in your post, despite me even suggesting he speak with someone more familiar with that style list (i.e. you). So, instead of bickering with me over card choices and an (incorrect) perception on how I play the deck, give the guy who's seeking help some. Because he's asking for it.


@Pich

Interesting list. I'm curious as to why you ran Counterspell over something like Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce. What permanents, other than the post-board Pillars, are you worried about? UU and U are a world of difference in this deck, so I'm curious to know your reasoning.

Also, the SDT is certainly interesting. It definitely offers a lot against discard decks, and is huge to refine your draws. I do worry about the mana-intensiveness of the card, but it doesn't seem bad. I don't have room for it in my own list, but it's neat that you were able to do so yourself.

Also...17 lands?! That's too few. 18 really is the bare minimum, especially in a deck without Candelabra. I haven't seen a successful list run anything below 18, and when I tested 17 I had numerous problems. I really suggest going back up there, otherwise it could cost you.

[apistat_commander]

He basically took an older version of my list and added a second Extraction to the sideboard and the fourth Ponder to the main. Other than that, the differences between our lists in that tournament are basically the changes I made in a time span of two months.

Thanks for your response! I am learning the deck and there isn't a ton of info about Candleless builds floating around. Can you explain why you decided to cut Defense Grid from the board? Other than Reanimator and Dredge, what MUs do you board in 4 Surgical Extractions? Do you board in any number against other decks?


Please, don't do that.

I was not a fan of Cloud of Faeries and I didn't really want to run them after testing them in a few games. I am trying your exact 75 right now.


Reading through your comments, I get why you're suggesting those changes. You are using a different playstyle to approach the deck. You're going all out on Time Spiral's to abuse them in the most efficient way possible. I'm not doing that. I try to avoid casting Time Spiral after the first one, due to the possibility to brick. Time Spiral is my enabler to start the combo and a backup plan, if I fail to combo my opponent out with the stuff I have going.

I recently picked up the deck, so I am by no means qualified to make card suggestions/assessments. I am doing what everyone new to a deck does, trying to find a successful build and running with it. I am also new to playing Storm combo, so that is certainly a factor as well. The deck just presents you with so many decision trees between the tutors, cantrips, and card draw that choosing the optimal line of play can be fairly difficult. Learning that I am not supposed to lean on my Time Spirals that hard is valuable piece of information that I didn't have before, thanks.

Edit:

That's all I was trying to do, to help. Not to sound trollish, but you avoided that entirely in your post, despite me even suggesting he speak with someone more familiar with that style list (i.e. you). So, instead of bickering with me over a card choices and an (incorrect) perception on how I play the deck, give the guy who's seeking help some. Because he's asking for it.

Thanks for the input Di, as I mentioned I am new to both the deck and Storm combo in general. However, I don't know if I will be going back to other playstyles as the allure of doing unfair things against fair decks is just too great to resist. Plus, I really enjoy the challenge involved with playing the deck even if it means I lose to myself more often than to my opponent. Also, if you are ever in Austin and want to play just PM me.

[Pich]

@Di

Sorry, it was a typing mistake.

I have 6 fetchlands and 12 islands, for 60 cards. Sorry.

[feline]

12 islands, 6 fetchlands, seems to be the usual

for some reason however, I run 7 fetchlands, I really like the interactions with brainstorm and even with ponder when you absloutely want something you see after casting ponder, but having another card with it that just "sucks" is Blargh!

in either case, I still have 7 fetchlands in my deck, so if anyone else has thought about having more than 6, know that you are not alone. >^,^<

[TheRedBaron]

12 islands, 6 fetchlands, seems to be the usual

for some reason however, I run 7 fetchlands, I really like the interactions with brainstorm and even with ponder when you absloutely want something you see after casting ponder, but have another card that just "sucks" for the time being "lol"

in either case, I still have 7 fetchlands in my deck, so if anyone else has thought about having more than 6, know that you are not alone >^,^<

If Stifle wasn't heavily played, I would run 8-9 fetches, actually.

[feline]

Went 3-1 for 2nd place at a 20 or so person legacy with spiral tide >^,^< won 25 in store credit for only a 5 dollar entry fee. I Got spiral tide only recently, and I had only really played it at one of the more casual shops in my area a like 4 or so times, went 2-2 once, 3-1 another time, 3-1 a different time with 1 win being a buy/bye, and only once 4-0, as well as playtesting it against multiple legacy decks via magic workstation, goldfishing it like mad (that's so fun to do) etc. But at the placed I played at this time, it was my first time playing the deck there since i sort of waited a bit at first, since this shop has less casuals & is much more a reflection of real type 1.5 tournaments, people play more of blue, duals, forces, dark confidants, even the tabernacle at pendrell vale, moat, etc, list goes on... so it felt like a premiere night for me w/ the deck and was excited to finally bring it to this environment.

Fought a non traditional burn deck, though they got game 2 off me, it is still burn and it's a race afterall, but I still won the match.

Beat a counterbalance deck with their game 2 dropping a turn 1 top & turn 2 counterbalance, since they didn't apply enough pressure I just sat back and waited till the time was right, thank you cunning wish -for a- wipe away at end of their turn. On my turn turnabout to tap them out, they tapped for mana in response, and I purposely burned my last 4 floating mana on the turnabout with having my islands all untapped, just declared my attack step, basically forcing a "mana burn". also stuff like merchant scroll into a force of will and all the other neat little tricks, it's really awesome to untap after a time spiral and just use up those brainstorm ponder preordain, they always have to save counters for the more important stuff & I can more easily get to the important stuff & pick up defense along the way when you do those 1 cast little helpers so much! they also had some bad luck, using top, fetchland for a new top 3, then fetchland for a new top 3 (they saved the fetchlands and kept them in play prepared to manipulate the heck off of their deck, but they never got a 3 converted mana cost card on their top 3 when I cunning wished, looking at Counterbalance lists in the past, I knew there weren't as many 3 of's in the deck as other converted mana cost spells, so I definitely felt safer, but not completely safe. As well when I knew who i was playing against, not only did they know exactly how spiral tide works, they have even played it themselves in the past, so it was a bit intimidating on top of them playing counterbalance already)

I also played against a merfolk deck, nothing really that exciting there, I apologize for boring the hell out of my opponent. I just played carefully against merfolk after every time spiral at one point they did force of will 2 times, a daze and sac'd a cursecatcher and I set myself up just right again via 1 blue, draw 3, 1 blue scry 2 1 blue top 3, & merchant scroll for stuff, if they waste a counter on merchant scroll fine, if they don't and I feel i need security and I can afford it via the mana and i have other draw cards, I'll just get a force of will anyway, was just insane still continuing after 2 force of will's & 2 "force spike" effects

The only loss was to a mono black reanimator deck that also happened to get first that night, I got game 1, but game 2 I died to a cycled for 2 life, draw a card aka street wraith reanimated, how you ask? When they went to pull a creature card out of their graveyard, I had to cunning wish - surgical extraction an Iona, shield of emeira away, so it could have been a lot worse, I just didn't get to everything I needed before a few attack phases of putrid imp & street wraith. Game 3 was just fun and funny, they basically just got me before I got them, but after the resolved Iona, I continued to play it out since we had played at another shop before a few times and i just thought it would be amusing to make them think I "might" have an answer in an all blue deck, I didn't however, and they commented something like, because of fetchlands, maybe I had access to something of another color from the sideboard. As far as Iona goes, I can't fit in 4 sideboard spots for something like Swords to plowshares anyway, I just don't have room, the plan is to stop it from coming out in the first place >^,^< that same 3rd game, they mulliganed a few times, I kept my hand and it was good enough, had a cunning wish so 3 mana meant surgical extraction again, but I didn't have the force of will, and they either dark ritualed and went off before my turn 3, or they duress'ed my cunning wish away, I don't remember which. the only way this games outcome could have changed was if I had mulliganed as well, I thought about it but I didn't like the risk of loosing an already decent hand, and I felt safer after they mulliganed down to 5.

I absolutely love the interactions of brainstorm and ponder, then fetchlanding away the cards ya dont want on top, or using a merchant scroll to shuffle, or even just "scrying" them away with preordain, I just cant get myself to cut any of the 4 brainstorm 4 ponder 4 preordain! >^,^<

[death]

Eric Becker, SCG Charlotte Finals

Instants
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
3 Remand
1 Spell Pierce
3 Turnabout

Sorceries
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral

Lands
11 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
1 Brain Freeze
3 Disrupt
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Hydroblast
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout
1 Wipe Away

Watching his matches, Remand was "the Nuts" which in most High Tide builds this slot is occupied by Flusterstorms and Pact of Negation. The extra draw plus the ability to combo off Brainfreeze/Remand/Brainfreeze is a huge deal, without having the need to cast a second Spiral.

[GradStudentGuy]

Watching his matches, Remand was "the Nuts" which in most High Tide builds this slot is occupied by Flusterstorms and Pact of Negation. The extra draw plus the ability to combo off Brainfreeze/Remand/Brainfreeze is a huge deal, without having the need to cast a second Spiral.

Remand does seem good if your going the brain freeze route. The only problem I have with the list is the 17 land count. He was using two to three can-trips a turn some games just to find land rather then tutors or untap effects. Disrupt also seems to be a nice choice, but I am not sold on 3x. Maybe a 2/2 Split with spell pierce would give it a little more defensive reach against other combo decks.

[ScatmanX]

4 Cunning Wish + BSZ + Brain Freeze is a bit too much imo. Too many bad cards before the combo. And 17 lands are at least 1 too few. And I think 3 Turnabouts is too few too...

Other than that, a teammate (Lebarion) always plays with Remand, so I've know for quite a while that they're awesome.

Other than that, congrats to the guy. Hope he writes a report somewhere.

[apistat_commander]

Watching his matches, Remand was "the Nuts" which in most High Tide builds this slot is occupied by Flusterstorms and Pact of Negation. The extra draw plus the ability to combo off Brainfreeze/Remand/Brainfreeze is a huge deal, without having the need to cast a second Spiral.

I am curious about Remand. It has a cute interaction with Brain Freeze, but it seems pretty lackluster as actual protection (something which Flusterstorm does quite well). Congrats to the guy, I would love to see a report as well.

I played in a Legacy GP trial yesterday and went 4-1-1 to finish in the Top 4. Everyone in the Top 4 won a Force and the only incentive to play the last few matches were byes at the Grand Prix. I don't plan on going so I scooped the guy in my semi-finals match.

My record was:

Round 1 - Elves (2-1) - Nothing spectacular happened. Kept a one land hand game one and was punished for it. Had to Extract Emrakul in the next two games to get the kill with Brainfreeze. Maybe I should have just gone with a big Blue Sun's Zenith instead.

Round 2 - Stifle-nought (2-0) - He applied no pressure and I just kept playing lands and cantrips until I could put together enough protection to go off. This is one of those games where the fundamental strength of the deck was evident. It didn't matter if he countered Merchant Scroll/Meditate pre-combo as I was going to go off either way.

Round 3 - Aggro-Loam (1-2) - I picked up my one match loss of the day here. Game one he had Turn 1 Chalice on 1 and he had lethal on the board by the time I could lift it. Game 3 I kept a hand that was pretty soft to Chalice on 1. He didn't have it until Turn 3 and I had the bounce in hand, but Devastating Dreams took out all of my lands and I top decked spells until he beat me to death with dudes.

Round 4 - Pox (2-0) - This was pretty easy. He didn't have enough targeted discard and in game 1 I had the Force for his T1 Liliana. 4 Meditates post board gave me a ton of inevitability. Even Extirpate on my High Tide didn't slow me down too much as he really didn't have any responses.

Round 5 - ID

Round 6 - Stoneblade (2-0) - Both games were pretty similar, he Stoneforges in a Sword, hits me once, then I combo out. Defense Grid was critical post-board in making sure that my Time Spirals didn't draw him into anything relevant.

Here is the list I played:

Combo(12):
4x High Tide
4x Time Spiral
4x Turnabout

Tutor(8):
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish
1x Intuition

Protection(8):
4x Force of Will
3x Flusterstorm
1x Pact of Negation

Draw(14):
4x Preordain
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Meditate

Lands(18):
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Misty Rainforest
12x Island

Sideboard:
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Defense Grid
1x Flusterstorm
1x Pact of Negation
1x Echoing Truth
1x Snap
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Meditate
1x Hurkyl’s Recall
1x Brain Freeze
1x Blue Sun’s Zenith

I was pretty happy with the list. I never needed to side in all 3 Surgical Extractions but I saw neither Dredge nor Reanimator, so that might be skewing my perception. Flusterstorm is a dead card in some MUs, but it is so good in others that I can't imagine playing less than the full four in my 75. I wouldn't mind finding space for a 4th Ponder and a Brain Freeze in the main, but relying on Cunning Wish to find my win condition wasn't too problematic. 4 Meditates really help with going off on a single Time Spiral.

[ScatmanX]

I am curious about Remand. It has a cute interaction with Brain Freeze, but it seems pretty lackluster as actual protection (something which Flusterstorm does quite well).
Remand function as protection the same way it did on the Solidarity days. Play High Tide, they counter, Remand your own High Tide, and go off again next turn.
Lebarion did this sometime on his last tournament. Report on last page.
Inspite of that, if I was to play this again, I'd play a list exactly like yours, with the exception on the SB, where I'd find room for a 2nd Snap and a Wipe Away.

About the MU against POX, how did you won without High Tides? Did you sided 1 out predicting Extirpate?

[apistat_commander]

Remand function as protection the same way it did on the Solidarity days. Play High Tide, they counter, Remand your own High Tide, and go off again next turn.
Lebarion did this sometime on his last tournament. Report on last page.
Inspite of that, if I was to play this again, I'd play a list exactly like yours, with the exception on the SB, where I'd find room for a 2nd Snap and a Wipe Away.

About the MU against POX, how did you won without High Tides? Did you sided 1 out predicting Extirpate?

Well, the problem with using Remand as protection in that situation is that you are assuming you get to take another turn. Many times you simply can't wait so fighting through counters on Turn 4 can be pretty important. Those are the two bounce spells that I would like to fit in the SB, however space is pretty tight. I have thought about cutting the Defense Grids but they are really helpful in the harder match ups.

Yes, I took out one High Tide after Game 1. I didn't take detailed enough notes to list my sideboarding plans but if I suspected SE, I took out a High Tide for game 2.

[kingtk3]

@apistat_commander: congrats for the nice result!
I basically play the same 75 of yours (-1 chain of vapor +1 wipe away) and I have a couple of questions about sideboarding, in particular about what you take out from the MD: I'm always unsure what is better in the 60 in game 2 (and / or 3) against almost every deck.

Thanks for the advices.

[apistat_commander]

@apistat_commander: congrats for the nice result!
I basically play the same 75 of yours (-1 chain of vapor +1 wipe away) and I have a couple of questions about sideboarding, in particular about what you take out from the MD: I'm always unsure what is better in the 60 in game 2 (and / or 3) against almost every deck.

Thanks for the advices.

The maindeck is pretty solid and there are only a few cards that you want to take out:

Intuition - Comes out against anything slower or that might have Extirpate/SE
Pact of Negation - Comes out against anything non-blue, sometimes against blue decks if the opponent is slow enough that you will have the mana for Flusterstorm.
High Tide - Take one out if you are afraid of it getting discarded then Extracted/Extirpated.
Ponder - Take one out if you need space, it is the worst cantrip in the deck.
Flusterstorm - Can come out against decks with no relevant targets, though this depends on your opponents deck/SB strategy. You may take it out for G2 and bring it back in G3 depending on what you see.

Given that, sideboarding is pretty straight forward. Bring in bounce against hatebears, Defense Grid against counterspells, and SE against GY decks. The maindeck has enough versatility that digging for answers isn't too hard.

[feline]

On the promotional side of, actually promoting 17 lands, 6 fetch / 11 islands, he is doing 4 ponder 4 preordain 4 brainstorm, I myself have been doing the 17 lands & 12 of those 1 cast cantrips and I have had no issues because of it. In the argument of having to search for more land, that means you have more "pieces" in your hand and you just need that 1 more land to finish it, other times you need more "pieces" but have enough land, having 4 ponder / 4 preordain / 4 brainstorm just allows you more of those filter options in either case, it also increases the number of draw spells possible to draw in your deck after a time spiral which reduces chances of drawing nothing but lands / untap effects / force of will and "o crap nothing to draw I fizzled" though that very rarely happens at it is.

As far as the other stuff, brain freeze - remand, I don't like brain freeze because there is just enough stuff out there that you could actually brain freeze an Emrakul, the aeons torn. (Those sneak attack / show and tell setups are out there, I've even seen Emrakul in elf decks, & even in high tide, which is odd with meditate in the deck) Whenever I cast a blue sun's zenith, I know I don't have to worry about "shuffle the graveyard back into the library" (Unless there's a card out there I don't know about lol) As well, keeping track of islands tapping for X and mana in pool, keeping track of a 3rd thing (storm count) would just be more to juggle and suck up more time having to track it with dice or a pen or w/e.

As far as remand goes, It's nice and gives you some tricks, but I don't even know how I'd squeeze it in if I was to push for that, maybe go lower on main deck meditate or cut candels, and I don't feel comfortable with either of those ideas.

[xfxf]

About Brainfreeze and Emrakul, with the candleless build it might not be easy to pull off a lethal BSZ everytime and that's why I usually go with a Brainfreeze. But by then you probably have enough cards and enough mana to cast a small BSZ to make them draw whatever they shuffled in their deck from the graveyard and finish it.

[feline]

Meditate with mind over matter on the field is just stupid! lol, if you don't have candel's, I was using 2 Mind over matter at one point, and whenever I'd get one into play, I would aim to cast meditate as many times as possible, it just loads your hand, dead cards = untap a land, draw cards = more draw = more draw = more draw. ^,^

[xfxf]

I believe if you are in a situation where you have enough mana to drop Mind Over matter AND cast a Meditate you probably have enough mana and cards to chain cantrips into more High Tides and Turnabouts. Sounds like a win more to me but did it ever get you out of a sticky situation?

[feline]

Actually yes, one time I fizzled after a time spiral, getting a new 7 of only mana (lands, high tide), untap effects (turnabout, candelabra) and a force of will, though that's rare with brainstorm, ponder, preordain, time spiral, meditate, cunning wish, merchant scroll, an intuition, & a blue sun's zenith in deck, it does happen if you play enough games.

In either case, after the fizzle it was "o crap" but I did have a mind over matter in play, so I used it to tap out my opponents creatures for a couple turns, buying myself enough time, basically new turns to draw another card from the draw step, until i got to a new time spiral.

In either case, as far as the main or, more consistent argument goes, since that specific situation above is quite, rare, I can say that I don't mind playing a mind over matter after getting like 20 + cards in my hand, it makes it just faster to go "discard a land, untap a candel, use it to untap lands" and do it all over again 5 more times, instead of having to tutor for more untap effects and boring out my opponent for another 3 minutes, I guess thats the best argument I could make ha ha. >^,^<

[xfxf]

Meditate with mind over matter on the field is just stupid! lol, if you don't have candel's, I was using 2 Mind over matter at one point...

You make a sound argument about Mind Over Matter with candles but I thought you said it is good if you don't have candles too?

Btw. anyone going to GP and thinking about taking Spiral Tide?

[feline]

You make a sound argument about Mind Over Matter with candles but I thought you said it is good if you don't have candles too?

Btw. anyone going to GP and thinking about taking Spiral Tide?

Oh as far as that goes, I just know that before I got candels, I found myself often trying to get a mind over matter into play so I could just "finish them" with all the cards I drew and got into my hand by discarding like 10 cards, tapping and untapping an island like 10 times, instead of searching through my deck 3 or 4 more times, or having to cast more time spirals, as far as the route of searching for more, wishing for more, scrolling for more, drawing for more, spiraling for more, etc, I think I'm just a bit self conscious when I know my opponent is bored and annoyed when they openly say "your deck is boring and annoying, takes too long etc" lol

And the only Grand prix in my area is going to be limited, at least the main event anyhow, so for me, I don't think we will have a big legacy event till the starcity open series in my area for a while, and I believe that will be in the late summer.

[TerribleTim68]

I run a candle-less build (since I don't own any) and I run a single MoM. It helps when it's in play, but it isn't a "must land" for the win, at least for me anyway. But I also run Ideas Unbound (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88789) instead of Meditate. I found I was never in a position where I wanted to play Meditate pre "going-off". But with Ideas, I'm willing to use it at any time and never find it to be a dead card.

I also run Retraced Image (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=33698), which to me, is pretty sick since you can ramp a bit on turn 1 and also use it after a TS to play more lands. It's often amazing how many lands you can get into play on your turn 3, after having cast a HT and a TS. There are times where I get enough lands into play on turn 3 while going off that my TS doesn't untap them all. :cool:

[Pich]

Yo. Today i top 8ed a GPT and lost to Elves Combo because i was mana screwed.
I tested 3 Sensei's Divining Top Maindeck plus 3 Counterbalance in my sideboard because i was expecting a few Poxes, Burns and Elves-Combos and it didn't seem bad. :P

[lebarion]

Yo. Today i top 8ed a GPT and lost to Elves Combo because i was mana screwed.
I tested 3 Sensei's Divining Top Maindeck plus 3 Counterbalance in my sideboard because i was expecting a few Poxes, Burns and Elves-Combos and it didn't seem bad. :P

I'm also currently testing a list with Sensei's Divining Top maindeck. In theory, it seems to be great: it enhances your game against discard (and control, but this is a little win-more), lowers the chances you fizzle post-spiral, is a reasonable card during setup, and sometimes allows you to generate storm with two tops and a lot of mana. I've put them in the Ponder slot and cut the Meditates (19 lands, BF maindeck). I'm still not totally convinced, though.

I haven't thought about Counterbalance, it seems very interesting, too.

[Pich]

I wouldn't play CB in a meta without combo mirrors or pseudo combo (Elves, Burn) tho..

[ScatmanX]

I wouldn't play CB in a meta without combo mirrors or pseudo combo (Elves, Burn) tho..
Over here we have lots of these.
But how were the Counterbalances? Did you get to use them?

Top I'm going to try out to, but am not sold on CB still...

[lebarion]

Over here we have lots of these.
But how were the Counterbalances? Did you get to use them?

Top I'm going to try out to, but am not sold on CB still...

My only concern is that Counterbalance seems bad against tempo decks and merfolk, that are probably amont our worst matchups (even though Merfolks are out of radar right now). It is good against discard, though.

But anyway, most people spend some slots in the sideboard against faster combos. I think Counterbalance may be a good option in theses slots. I'll give a try.

[Pich]

I made this list for a GPT where i expected 2 Pox, 3 Elves Combo, 3 Burn and maybe 1-2 Storm decks.
Patrick Pichette - Pimp Tide



4 High Tide

4 Turnabout

4 Time Spiral

4 Merchant Scroll

4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder

3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Preordain

3 Counterspell

4 Force of Will

1 Echoing Truth

1 Brain Freeze

1 Meditate

3 Cunning Wish



3 Flooded Strand

2 Misty Rainforest

1 Scalding Tarn

12 Island



Sideboard



3 Counterbalance

3 Spell Pierce

2 Vendilion Clique

2 Wipe Away

1 Blue Sun's Zenith

1 Brain Freeze

1 Meditate

1 Pact of Negation

1 Rebuild

in 5 days i have a tournament where i expect Mainstream blue decks, Maverick and Dredge and i'll be playing this ;
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
12 Island
4 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Meditate
3 Spell Pierce
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Wipe Away
SB: 3 Dispel
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre

Obviously, you don't side in CB vs Merfolk, tempo and these kind of decks, its just for Burn, Elves (to some extent), Pox, Storm, Reanimator.

[GGoober]

Hi, I'm interested in picking up the deck and was wondering about Ideas Unbound which hasn't been discussed much. I usually prefer Meditates (playing flrn's list) since it is an instant and +1 card is still a huge deal, but Ideas Unbound seems very mana efficient when combo'ing and has some uses pre-combo setting up just to dig for a protection/Tide/Spiral. Card disadvantage blows but for a deck that wants to go off with 2 cards at Sorcery speed, I'm not sure if anyone has tested Ideas much.

I really like the idea of Sensei's Top, post-combo it could be a slightly more expensive Brainstorm (1 to play, 1 to dig) but it seems that it's really solid against the bad discard matchups and will grind out control decks.

How often do you guys find yourself going EOT Turnabout on decks with counterspells? I find that that is the safest way to combo off against control decks because a lot of control players would let you resolve High Tides and abuse their own untapped lands to hard cast FoW/Counterspells with little mana invested. Regarding that I was testing out a single copy of Gigadrowse in the sideboard as a scroll target against decks that I want to opt for the EOT tap-down opponent's land before combo'ing out. Gigadrowse is pretty nuts because it's replicating copies make it hard to be countered, ensuring that you can definitely tap your opponent's lands down whereas a Turnabout could be countered more easily (and even opposing flusterstorms/Mindbreak Traps can't reliably counter the replicated copies since they're put on the stack). Gigadrowse could also act as a time walk against aggro decks if you need to buy a turn.

I would like some feedback as to how often you guys go EOT Turnabouts on lands before combo'ing off safely and whether the Gigadrowse idea is a terrible one lol.

[lebarion]

I would like some feedback as to how often you guys go EOT Turnabouts on lands before combo'ing off safely and whether the Gigadrowse idea is a terrible one lol.

I remember using Turnabout in my opponent's lands only a few times. Usually, I Wish or scroll for Pact of Negation or other protection and go "all in" with at least two counterspells in hand.
Probably because of this, I don't think Gigadrowse is a very good idea.

Also, I believe Ideas Unbound is not used because it is not very good during setup (card disadvantage) and being a sorcery is a big difference. Meditate is just better.

[apistat_commander]

Hi, I'm interested in picking up the deck and was wondering about Ideas Unbound which hasn't been discussed much. I usually prefer Meditates (playing flrn's list) since it is an instant and +1 card is still a huge deal, but Ideas Unbound seems very mana efficient when combo'ing and has some uses pre-combo setting up just to dig for a protection/Tide/Spiral. Card disadvantage blows but for a deck that wants to go off with 2 cards at Sorcery speed, I'm not sure if anyone has tested Ideas much.

That fact that you can't Cunning Wish for it is a pretty large drawback. Plus I have won countless games by casting Meditate during my opponent's endstep. Either they counter it and open my path to victory or let me draw 4 and win. They really don't have a good choice. In general, I have found that the limiting factor during the combo is cards, not mana, so the one extra card off Meditate is pretty important.


How often do you guys find yourself going EOT Turnabout on decks with counterspells? I find that that is the safest way to combo off against control decks because a lot of control players would let you resolve High Tides and abuse their own untapped lands to hard cast FoW/Counterspells with little mana invested. Regarding that I was testing out a single copy of Gigadrowse in the sideboard as a scroll target against decks that I want to opt for the EOT tap-down opponent's land before combo'ing out. Gigadrowse is pretty nuts because it's replicating copies make it hard to be countered, ensuring that you can definitely tap your opponent's lands down whereas a Turnabout could be countered more easily (and even opposing flusterstorms/Mindbreak Traps can't reliably counter the replicated copies since they're put on the stack). Gigadrowse could also act as a time walk against aggro decks if you need to buy a turn.

I have done this once or twice, but only when the game was going really long. Most of the time your opponent will tap themselves out or simply won't have enough counters if you have been sculpting your hand.

@Top discussion: Top seems better in slower, longer matches but most of the time my mana is being used for more efficient filtering to set up a T4 win. I feel like Flusterstorm and Meditate are far more proactive answers to discard than Top.

[ScatmanX]

@Top discussion: Top seems better in slower, longer matches but most of the time my mana is being used for more efficient filtering to set up a T4 win. I feel like Flusterstorm and Meditate are far more proactive answers to discard than Top.
Top is not run in place of Meditate or Flusterstorm. It is run along with them, so you can't compare it that way.

@Metalwalker: I used to turnabout UW and UBG Landstill all the time. Today, I think it is worthy Turnabouting UW a lot, since they have a lot of counterspells that cost 2 mana or more (Snapcaster).

[apistat_commander]

Top is not run in place of Meditate or Flusterstorm. It is run along with them, so you can't compare it that way.

I was referencing Lebarion's post where he said he cut Meditate and Ponder for Tops. He also did not mention if he was running Flusterstorm. Pich's list also doesn't run Flusterstorm and only a singleton Meditate main, so based on the lists/suggestions presented my point stands (that I think Flusterstorm and Meditate are better answers for discard).

What are you cutting for Top? Ponders and Preordains? Something else?

[lebarion]

I was referencing Lebarion's post where he said he cut Meditate and Ponder for Tops. He also did not mention if he was running Flusterstorm. Pich's list also doesn't run Flusterstorm and only a singleton Meditate main, so based on the lists/suggestions presented my point stands (that I think Flusterstorm and Meditate are better answers for discard).

What are you cutting for Top? Ponders and Preordains? Something else?

In fact, my current list (without tops) have no Meditates. It is very similar to your list posted in the last page, with -3 Meditate, -3 Flusterstorm, +1 Island, +1 Brain Freeze, +1 Ponder, +3 Remand. I like the Meditates, but I haven't missed them in my last two tournaments.

I'm testing cuting Ponders/Preordains for Tops now. Top is not what made me cut the Meditates, but is something that may cover its absense in my list.

If I stick to the tops, I'll probably cut the remands for a more effective counterspell or maybe counterbalance. My logic is that Remand gains you tempo and allows you to win with less storm. Top may be used to generate storm if you have 2 of them, so it more or less fills Remand's second function, and there are better cards at gaining you tempo for 2 mana.

[ScatmanX]

I was referencing Lebarion's post where he said he cut Meditate and Ponder for Tops. He also did not mention if he was running Flusterstorm. Pich's list also doesn't run Flusterstorm and only a singleton Meditate main, so based on the lists/suggestions presented my point stands (that I think Flusterstorm and Meditate are better answers for discard).

What are you cutting for Top? Ponders and Preordains? Something else?
I understood you now.
My currently list has 3 Meditates, 3 Fluster and 12 Cantrips. 2 of those were going to get the Axe for Top, not Meditate or Fluster.
Lets see how id does...

[juterz]

I just recently started playing the deck, and I'm playing a version exactly like flrn's list here (MB):
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22941-Heartbreaking-9th-place-at-quot-Win-a-Lotus-quot-Legacy-cup.

I was wondering if anyone could give me sideboarding strategies knowing that i run:

3 Surgical Extractions
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Snap
3 General (non-land) Bounce Effects
1 Pact of Negation
1 Dispel
1 Meditate
1 Flusterstorm
1 Artifact hate
2 Wincons (1 BSZ and 1 Brain Freeze)

Having a hard time deciding what cards to board out to put in GY hate (when needed) and bounce for hate cards (ie. Canonists, Pyrostatic Pillars, etc.)

[feline]

I run at least 2 pact of negation in the sideboard, so I can have one in the deck and merchant scroll for it game's 2 and 3 against counters, force of will is fine, but pact doesn't consume another card in hand where force does, unless you're casting force for 5 mana >^,^<

Rebuild is another good one, as well as echoing truth and wipe away, but I assume those are your bounce effects listed as, bounce effects.

Obviously the blue sun's zenith & brain freeze make sense.

Other 1 of's I could note would be
Intuition
Turnabout
Mindbreak trap
Misdirection (When you can't cunning wish for a pact on turn 3 because you only have 3 islands in play, you can always net a misdirection, I've used it more than once on turns before going off where I didn't have pact mana available for the next turn and it's been helpful)

I also run some repeal's, worst case scenario, it bounces your own candel and you get to play it again, draw a card, net more mana.

[flrn]

Having a hard time deciding what cards to board out to put in GY hate (when needed) and bounce for hate cards (ie. Canonists, Pyrostatic Pillars, etc.)

In the nonblue matchups, where you only expect permanent based hate, I usually start by taking out the Pact of Negation and a Flusterstorm. If you expect them to have Surgical Extraction, you also want to board out Intuition, since I usually cast Intuition to get the me three times the same card and I don't wanna waste my counters on an opponents Surgical Extraction. That's mostly three slots already. Now it depends on the matchup, if you want to board in more stuff. The next cards, which are likely to go are a Ponder or a second copy of Flusterstorm. But beware, Flusterstorm also has some applications in the nonblue matchups, f.e. countering a Green Sun's Zenith.

I only bring in the full graveyard hate package against Reanimator or Dredge. My boarding against Reanimator can be found in my tournament report, that you linked. That's still up to date, since I'm still playing exactly the same 75. It's a great list for the current metagame. Against Dredge, I usually take out the Pact of Negation, two Force of Will and a Ponder to bring in four Surgical Extraction. Force of Will is not that great in the matchup, because you don't want to make any card disadvantage. Try not to keep a hand with High Tide on the draw and if you are on the play, make sure you are able to hide your High Tide with a Brainstorm, because their first Cabal Therapy will always name High Tide. If you have a Surgical Extraction, use it immediately to take out their Cabal Therapy's, because that is the strongest card they have in this matchup:

a) It is their disruption that makes you unable to go off, if it hits.
b) It is a sacrifce outlet, which gives them additional Zombies. So if you extract it right away, it will slow them down.

If they start the game by playing Putrid Imp, you shouldn't use Surgical Extraction on their first Dredger, because they might have another one. If they start the game by using Careful Study or Faithless Looting and they discard only one Dredger, you might want to use Surgical Extraction, but it's kind of a gamble. If they hit a Cabal Therapy, when they dredge in their draw step, make sure to use Extraction at the end of their draw step and don't let them go to their first main phase, because they might use it immediately without giving you priority (if they have a creature on the board).

[juterz]

To those people running Defense Grids, how helpful do you guys find it? And how often do you guys find yourselves boarding them in?

I mean, the only matchup I can see myself boarding them in against atm is the RUG matchup, just coz of the sheer amount of counters they bring in (with pyroblasts/REBs).

[Pich]

Yesterday, i went 6-1 and lost in top 8 with Spiral Tide at Canadian Magic Tour Québec. (It's a bit like SCG, but in Canada)

R1 2-0 vs Burn Sylvain Larochelle

Game 1 I probe him around turn 3 when he has like 5 cards in hand and he has something like Cursed Scroll, Price of Progress, 2x Bolt and a Barbarian Ring, while i'm like at 10 and i hold a FoW. I proceed to combo out on turn 4 and win pretty easily once Spiral has resolved.

I board in Pierces and the 3 bounces for 2 Gitaxian Probe, 2 Ponder, a Counterspell and a Cunning Wish because it is hella slow.
Game 2 he plays a turn 2 Pyrostatic Pillar which i FoW pitching turnabout, i sculpt my hand, he draws blanks a time or two, he has no creatures in play, he gets me to 5 or something like that, i turnabout him before the turn i combo out in order to not get Pyroblasted more than once, it resolves and i proceed to combo on turn 5.

Round 2 vs Reanimator Yannick Deschamps 1-2 LOSS
G1 ; He goes turn 1 Entomb Iona.
Turn 2 Reanimate
Cool story bro.

I board in 2 V. Clique, Wipe Away, 3 Spell Pierce and i board out like 2x G. Probe, a Turnabout, 2 Ponder.

G2 ; He mulls to 4, i have turn 1 Pierce open, turn 2 Counterspell open, turn 3 Counterspell open again, turn 4 i Clique him EOT and i see shit. I ride my clique to victory with my counter-magic ready to fire and i turnabout him a time or two during is upkeep in order to lock down his lands temporarly.

G3; Turn 1 Entomb
Turn 2 Reanimate

Had a good hand of Preordain, Merchant Scroll, Vendilion Clique and other good stuff, but men, can't always have COUNTERSPELLZZZZZZ.

Round 3 - 2-0 vs Merfolk, Eugene Ho

G1 he opens with Cursecatcher, i Ponder, then turn 2 i play 2 sorcery Cantrips, he plays a turn 2 Standstill, i break it on my turn 3 with Merchant Scroll which gets High Tide, then i Probe him and see double fow, 2-3 blue guys, a dismember and a land. He puts lethal which results in him holding 2 fows and just a blue card so i win through what he has going High Tide, Turnabout, Time Spiral, Force of Will your Force of Will.

+2 V. Clique -2 Ponder
G2 he plays a turn 1 Mutavault, then he attacks me with it on his turn 3, turn 3 he plays a Standstill and i break it EOT at some point because he has 6 cards in hand with my Brainstorm, then he discards wasteland, i untap, i sculpt my hand with whatever i had, then the next turn i combo out with FoW backup in hand.

Round 4 2-1 vs GWr Maverick, Sebastien Alarie
G1 i beat him like i'm supposed to do.

I board in 3 bounces for 2 Ponders, 1 Gitaxian Probe.
G2 he plays a turn 2 Sylvan Library, he plays some stuff, i draw like 9 lands and i lose terribly.

G3 I combo him out on turn 5 pretty easily because he had to mull to 4 and didn't have disruption while not even having a white source or a good clock.

Round 5 2-0 vs Stoneblade, Karl Linteau
He arrives at the table, looks in his bag for his deck, doesn't find it, starts freaking out a little bit, finally it was his previous round opponent that put Karl's deck in his bag accidently.

Game 1 he draws a few Stps, the game is very long, i bait counters with Wishes and Meditates and stuff, i turnabout his lands and then i go off while he has 5 cards in hand, 3 of them being dead cards.

I board in 2 V.Clique, board out 1 High tide 1 Ponder.

He mulligans to 5, he is stuck on 2 Lands while i don't miss land drops and i sculpt m hand, i probe him like turn 3 or 4 and see double fow, surgical, snapcaster, counterspell, Jace. I meditate, he fows pitching Jace, then i combo out while he just has 3 lands out, in the process he Surgicals my High tide after one has resolved. (a Mutavault and 2 colored lands.)

Round 6 2-0 vs Steppe Lynx burn.

Game 1 He plays turn 1 Figure, turn 2 he pumps it, beats, and bolts me, turn 3 he beats, them i combo out turn 4 while being at like 7, he plays Helix and Bolt in response to my Time Spiral, i fow the Bolt then i win, not letting him untap with his grip of burn.

Game 2 he has the nut high even if he mull'd to 6, he plays turn 1 Lynx, turn 2 fetch, figure, pump, turn 3 he fetches, beats.., chain lightning or something like that so I had to combo out turn 3 because I had no choice, I went High tide, Turnabout, Merchant Scroll, Turnabout, Time Spiral, then he burned me in response, i fell to 4, in his Spiral grip he had another burn, so I fell to 1. I decked him, looked at his graveyard and I realised that he had just another bolt in hand, I said go with a Counterspell up.

Round 7 2-0 vs Robert Pambianchi playing some GWu maverick variant.
I can't ID because i'm paired down.
Game 1 I cantrip turn 1, double cantrip turn 2, Merchant scroll for High Tide turn 3, I combo out on turn 4 into a Spiral, zenith my face for 6 leaving 6 mana open, I don't draw a single Merchant Scroll or Turnabout or Time Spiral to continue comboing out, so I Cantrip twice in order to find a godamn Turnabout, I don't find it. I say go holding Counterspells while he has something like 4 of Power on board, i draw into a Blue Sun Zenith, i do it for 3 on my face at end of turn, then on my last turn i Ponder and find the card i was needing to combo out, don't remember if it was High Tide or Spiral. the second time is the right, and I Zenith his face for '' eh.... a lot ''

I board in 3 bounces, board out 2 Probes and a Ponder.

He drops a Leyline of Sanctity a land and he says go, or maybe he played a Mother of Runes, i don't really remember.. turn 2 he plays some creature that is not a hatebear, turn 3 he plays Geist, i Counterspell, i sculpt my hand, i combo out turn 4, in the process i zenith my face for 8 leaving 7 mana up, he Flusterstorms it for a Storm of like 8.. DOH! He plays some guys and equipments, leaves me at 1 life then i combo out, bounce his leyline, Brain Freeze his face. Yay ! 6-1 !

I'm the only one on 18 points, i play against a GWu Vial deck with Mothers, Fauna Shaman and post-board Gaddock Teeg, Canonist, Thalia, Meddling Mage.. I win game 1 playing 6 High Tides with 3 Lands on board. I board in bounces, board out Probes and a Ponder Game 2 he keep some sketchy hand depending on his Vial to resolve, i have no FoW, he plays shitty colorless lands, (Waste, Moorland Haunt, Bojuka Bog..) but he had Vial into Mother into Teeg.. Couldn't do shit with what i had.

Game 3 he topdecks a bunch of hatebears, (Meddling Mage, Thalia, Canonist) while i draw shit including 3 Time Spirals and a Blue Sun's Zenith.. Sad panda.

So.. I got 100$
Well, i still liked that tournament. :P

3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
12 Island
4 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Meditate
4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Meditate
SB: 1 Brain Freeze
SB: 1 Pact of Negation
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Wipe Away
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap

[feline]

Looks like another High Tide deck in the top tables tonight at the open series! this time w/ candles. >^,^<

[Di]

To those people running Defense Grids, how helpful do you guys find it? And how often do you guys find yourselves boarding them in?

I mean, the only matchup I can see myself boarding them in against atm is the RUG matchup, just coz of the sheer amount of counters they bring in (with pyroblasts/REBs).

Defense Grid really shines in matchups that have a high number of counters, which these days is really only relegated to RUG, UR Delver, and occasionally UW Stoneforge, but it can also be brought in for BUG, or at least anything that runs a high number of blasts, Surgical Extraction/Extirpate, and Stifle (although the Stifles thing is more of an issue for Candle builds only). In matchups such as RUG, UR, UW, or BUG, you can often be sitting across anywhere from 10-18 counterspells or things that can affect your turn like Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique, or Surgical Extraction. Although you can still fight through it, those decks also have a high possibility of drawing great hands post-Spiral that can wipe you out with counters. Defense Grid turns that greatly into your favor by essentially limiting them of any multiple counterspells they'd have in hand the turn you go off and blanking anything they draw post-Spiral. At the very worst it will almost always bait out a Force of Will or something early because if it resolves it essentially turns half their deck into crap, and also takes a lot of pressure off building up a hand that can fight through a ton of counters and allowing you to focus on building combo pieces instead.

[lebarion]

Hi,
Played a tournament last sunday to a bad result of 2-2-2. My losses (Shot in the Dark and Enchantress) and draws (Pox and TES) were mostly due sub-optimal plays and bad luck together.
Anyway, I'd like to say Top was great. I used two in place of 2 Ponders, and I was always happy to see them. I'd have been totally raped by Pox if wasn't by Top, and had I made the correct play, I could have won against Shot in the Dark through CounterTop + Fow.

[TerribleTim68]

...Also, I believe Ideas Unbound is not used because it is not very good during setup (card disadvantage) and being a sorcery is a big difference. Meditate is just better.

That fact that you can't Cunning Wish for it is a pretty large drawback. Plus I have won countless games by casting Meditate during my opponent's endstep. Either they counter it and open my path to victory or let me draw 4 and win. They really don't have a good choice. In general, I have found that the limiting factor during the combo is cards, not mana, so the one extra card off Meditate is pretty important.
I don't know that I agree. Maybe it's a play style thing. I just know that I tried Meditate in mine and found that pre "going off" I never wanted it because I was never in a situation where I could afford to lose that turn. Far too often, that turn I would have to skip would have been the game. Yet, with Ideas Unbound I was always willing to cast it early to put together what I needed to "go off". So to me, or at least for my style, Ideas Unbound was 200% better pre "going off" and it worked just fine while "going off". So I don't run Meditate, I run Ideas Unbound.

You can tell me all you want about how Meditate is better and why, but I'm telling you what I felt sitting at the table with the cards in my hand. I'll stick with Ideas Unbound.

[flrn]

Good job Di. I want a report ASAP!

[xfxf]

Hurray for Spiral Tide! :)

[ScatmanX]

I think Alix missplayed on his last game.
1 - The clock on the other side was not thar great. He could have waited 2 turns to find another land, to Turnabout his opponent lands on his eot, then go off without fear of Counterspell.
2 - He could, after Spiral, have not played the fetchland, and cast High Tide, pretending he was low on mana. If his opponent attempt to counter it, he would have won.

But maybe there were more things going on that I did no see.
To bad he'll not top8...

Can we expect a report somewhere? I'd love that.

Edit: Read what Di wrote on the GP thread, and he's right. Turnabouting the opponents lands, then moving to attack phase, would be the best option after spiral...

[Pich]

I'm tired of losing to goblin guide nut draws, i might play Cloud of faeries in my maindeck.. or play some shitty hydroblasts in my sb, lol.

[GGoober]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7874&iddeck=57340

2 Gigadrowse!! I was seriously thinking about the card's functionality against control and aggro-control decks (since they cannot simply FoW/Daze Gigadrowse as apposed to a 4cmc Turnabout).

Would love to hear some thoughts and a report soon as well :D

The 4 Explore seems interesting although I would see if you opt for a green route then maybe Tangles and Hunting Pack could be good in the SB against relevant metagames.

[lebarion]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7874&iddeck=57340

2 Gigadrowse!! I was seriously thinking about the card's functionality against control and aggro-control decks (since they cannot simply FoW/Daze Gigadrowse as apposed to a 4cmc Turnabout).

Would love to hear some thoughts and a report soon as well :D

The 4 Explore seems interesting although I would see if you opt for a green route then maybe Tangles and Hunting Pack could be good in the SB against relevant metagames.

That list is very strange, in my opinion. It is cold to a resolved Gaddock Teeg, unless you have at least 5 lands in play (to be able to play high tide, wish for Slaughter Pact and play Turnabout). No Wipe Away or mass bounce (such as Hurkyl's Recall for Canonist or Hibernation for Teeg) also makes it hard to deal with any Mother protected hatebear.

It seems nuts against aggro-control and control, though, with the 3 Pacts main and Gigadrowse.


Also, @Di, have you faced many hatebears at GP: Indy?

[GGoober]

Yeah I had questions with 3 Repeals in the board (given the popularity of Maverick, maybe this is really against Mother of Runes? or perhaps it was there against Delver.decks). I would have thought some diversified form of bounce e.g. Snap would be great as well, but it would be good to see his logic behind his card selection.

What I really like about Explore (at least from reasoning since I didn't test his list) is with the 12 cantrips, you are really going to be very consistent post-spiral. The chance of fizzling drops dramatically as you get to put more lands in play for future untap effects AND get the lands out of your deck for a denser second time-spiral. It could also fundamentally allow the deck to win a turn faster. You are prone to Wasteland, but since Explore drops another land if resolved and replaces itself, it seems like a fair trade (since they lose a land drop in the process). Getting Explore snared kinda hurts though, but the deck seems to beast aggro-control/control.

[apistat_commander]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7874&iddeck=57340

2 Gigadrowse!! I was seriously thinking about the card's functionality against control and aggro-control decks (since they cannot simply FoW/Daze Gigadrowse as apposed to a 4cmc Turnabout).

Would love to hear some thoughts and a report soon as well :D

The 4 Explore seems interesting although I would see if you opt for a green route then maybe Tangles and Hunting Pack could be good in the SB against relevant metagames.

My biggest question about Explore is whether or not it is worth making the deck vulnerable to Wasteland. Considering that we absolutely need to hit every land drop on time giving your opponents an easy way to disrupt your mana seems like a bad idea.

[TerribleTim68]

Why would you splash green to run Explore (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Explore) over just staying blue and running Retraced Image (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Retraced%20Image)? Sure, the one lets you draw a card, but it's also a turn slower. Is the one card you draw really that needed? I run Retraced Image (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Retraced%20Image) and it's pretty much nuts. You can put a second Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Island) into play on turn 1 and then while going off you just keep playing more islands since you Time Spiral (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Time%20Spiral) them back into your deck each time. Often times you can comfortably start going off on turn 3 since you played that additional land on turn 1 and you can quickly get to a point where your 2nd or 3rd Time Spiral (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Time%20Spiral) doesn't untap all the lands you've put in play, on turn 3! I've done it a lot, so I don't see the need to splash green just for Explore (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Explore).

I'd love to hear what you guys think and why we steered away from Retraced Image (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Retraced%20Image) to include Explore (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Explore).

[Pich]

I think both are bad, Image is card disadvantage and Explore makes Wasteland revelant against you.. the best aspect of the deck that is a plus compared to Ritual Storm decks is that its unvulnerable to the therefore mentioned mana-denial. If Explore would be 1U, i would run it for sure, because it's a nice spell.. but i wouldn't splash for this..

[TerribleTim68]

I know what you're saying, but I don't view Image as "card dis-advantage" as much as "mana acceleration", which is something they don't expect out of this deck. But then, I'm running mine candle-less so I like the extra boost. If I had candles I'd take the Images out. But hey, who has an extra $1k laying around for a playset? :eek:

[ThomasDowd]

I know what you're saying, but I don't view Image as "card dis-advantage" as much as "mana acceleration", which is something they don't expect out of this deck. But then, I'm running mine candle-less so I like the extra boost. If I had candles I'd take the Images out. But hey, who has an extra $1k laying around for a playset? :eek:

Don't need a playset. but the amount you would spend on some candelabras is pretty much an entire different deck. so if you have an inkling to do that to " diversify your arsenal" just get candelabras. that's what I'm doing I have some bayou's floating around. What the hell am I ever going to use bayou's for? junk? loam pox? "blergh" random rock decks that do not appeal to me? so screw it and put them towards some candles.

also if you play standard you will be amazed at how many legacy staples you can acquire by just sitting out a season of standard. and buying legacy cards.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Played my local tournament today. 59 people attended and I brought the following list:

4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
1 Intuition
3 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
4 Turnabout

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral

3 Flooded Strand
12 Island
3 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hibernation
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Snap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Wipe Away
3 Defense Grid

GW Maverick 2-0
Aggro Loam 2-0
Enchantress 2-0
NO RUG 2-0
BUG Control 2-0
Canadian i.D.

Deck is awesome. Will swap out some cards in the sideboard though. Will try the following at the next event:

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Snap
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Defense Grid

Won a local tourney with this. Beat:

Counterbalance
Enchantress
Pox

I know, I know, terrible fucking sample. BUT: this deck felt solid. Not sure how the UR Delver or RUG decks would fare, but that's next in my testing. My question:

How good is Candel?

I sold mine before I could make an honest assesment. how often does it allow you to go off turn 3?

[flrn]

I know, I know, terrible fucking sample. BUT: this deck felt solid. Not sure how the UR Delver or RUG decks would fare, but that's next in my testing.

I think both matchups are preboard favourable for High Tide and about 50/50 postboard. I'm still at those 60 cards, but my sideboard has slightly changed, since the post you quoted. This is the board I'm using since january:

1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Snap
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Wipe Away

Against Canadian (or RUG as you might call it) and UR Delver I bring in the Dispel and the fourth Flusterstorm and take out the Intuition and a Ponder.

[Lejay]

If I'm correct the primary use of surgical is for reanimator. In this case do other match-ups really justify running Surgical 2-3-4 over faerie macabre ? I Don't see the deck siding all surgicals against storm, am I wrong ?
I also don't see very beneficial to side all 4 SE vs blue to avoid them having more counterspells than you post TSP.

[Olesch]

Surgical is also for Emrakul etc... Answer the trigger


If I'm correct the primary use of surgical is for reanimator. In this case do other match-ups really justify running Surgical 2-3-4 over faerie macabre ? I Don't see the deck siding all surgicals against storm, am I wrong ?
I also don't see very beneficial to side all 4 SE vs blue to avoid them having more counterspells than you post TSP.

[Lejay]

I didn't ask about surgical. I asked about surgical 2-3-4. Don't tell me you side 4 of these against show and tell decks. You just want one to wish for and the others can just be faerie macabre.

[flrn]

If I'm correct the primary use of surgical is for reanimator. In this case do other match-ups really justify running Surgical 2-3-4 over faerie macabre ? I Don't see the deck siding all surgicals against storm, am I wrong ?
I also don't see very beneficial to side all 4 SE vs blue to avoid them having more counterspells than you post TSP.

Surgical's are for both Reanimator and Dredge, which are apparently both very popular in europe, as you should know. Since I can't go off before turn three, Dredge can very easily rip my hand apart with Cabal Therapy. Therefor the first Therapy needs to go as soon as I my opponent dredges one. Therefor I play four to bring them all in, to have a maximum chance to open them up/draw them, because wishing for stuff on turn three is too late, if you have no hand by that point of time. Kinda the same thing goes for the Reanimator matchup. I board them all in, since I dislike using Cunning Wish for that kinda stuff.

The only slot in my board, which I'm a bit unsatisfied with is Wipe Away. It's my guilty conscience for the Counterbalance Matchup. It is also sometimes relevant, when GW Maverick curves out with Mother of Runes into random hatebear.

[Lejay]

You could also use faerie macabre on cabal therapy and their best card in the yard, but I understand the idea of racing once you removed their only disrupt (which happens to be an enabler).
About wipe away I also see a good player seeing you tutored it will give proU in his own turn. So since WA is 3cc you almost always need another bounce anyway. If you just never face counterbalances maybe you could test an aether spellbomb even if it isn't wishable. It's not completely dead in the combo turn and doesn't care of MoR.

[juterz]

Okay. I've been playing the typical candel-less build for a couple of weeks now. Running 3 Defense Grids in my SB.
I find myself bording them in, typically, against RUG, UR, and pretty much non-combo blue decks.

I usually just take out a ponder, the one of intuition, and a flusterstorm for the 3 grids against RUG . But I always find it really hard to figure out what to take out for a couple of bounce cards against UR and Stoneblade (since they also bring in hatebears like pyrostatic pillar and either cannonists/meddling mages)

So my question is, against matchups like that. are 2 bounce cards enough to board in along with the 3 defense grids? Or am I totally doing it wrong?

Here's the 75 I run:

4 High Tide
4 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Meditate
4 FoW
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
18 Lands (6 fetch)
------------------
1 BSZ
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor/Wipe Away (Totally undecided on this)
1 Pact of Negation
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Defense Grid

[rxavage]

Okay. I've been playing the typical candel-less build for a couple of weeks now. Running 3 Defense Grids in my SB.
I find myself bording them in, typically, against RUG, UR, and pretty much non-combo blue decks.

I usually just take out a ponder, the one of intuition, and a flusterstorm for the 3 grids against RUG . But I always find it really hard to figure out what to take out for a couple of bounce cards against UR and Stoneblade (since they also bring in hatebears like pyrostatic pillar and either cannonists/meddling mages)

So my question is, against matchups like that. are 2 bounce cards enough to board in along with the 3 defense grids? Or am I totally doing it wrong?

Here's the 75 I run:

4 High Tide
4 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Meditate
4 FoW
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Preordain
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
18 Lands (6 fetch)
------------------
1 BSZ
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor/Wipe Away (Totally undecided on this)
1 Pact of Negation
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Defense Grid



I want to try a candle-less build and came up with something pretty close to yours, what do you find to be most problematic for you? What are your more difficult matchups?

[xfxf]

The only slot in my board, which I'm a bit unsatisfied with is Wipe Away. It's my guilty conscience for the Counterbalance Matchup. It is also sometimes relevant, when GW Maverick curves out with Mother of Runes into random hatebear.

What about a singleton Hibernation?

[joemauer]

What about a singleton Hibernation?

Hibernation won't stop Thalia and/or Canonist.

[juterz]

I want to try a candle-less build and came up with something pretty close to yours, what do you find to be most problematic for you? What are your more difficult matchups?
I find the Pox matchup pretty irritating. Dunno if that's just me though. Reanimator pre-board is pretty hard too. Since they (almost) always bring out an Iona on turn 2.

[xfxf]

Hibernation won't stop Thalia and/or Canonist.

Yes. But it's no less conditional than a Wipe Away. You need wipe away to bounce a Mom protected hatebear. For other cases we can use Snap, Chain etc. You need Hibernation when they have a Mom protected Teeg (only him) or under pressure by Knights, Pridemage etc. It also bounces a Progenitus.

They are both useful in pretty corner cases but which ones are more common, I think that's the question here.

Edit: More I think more undecisive I get. If a turn 2 Progenitus resolves when I'm on the draw Hibernation is too slow to be fetched with Wish anyways. I can be under pressure and restricted by Teeg at the same time but then I can also use Turnabout to gain some more time and landdrops. But with the amount of Maverick matchups there's a higher chance of getting Turn 1 Mom, Turn 2 hatebear. However if that hatebear is Thalia I might just ignore her and countinue comboing a turn later instead of bouncing her on turn 5 (turn 4 Cunning Wish, Turn 5 Wipe Away)

[flrn]

You could also use faerie macabre on cabal therapy and their best card in the yard, but I understand the idea of racing once you removed their only disrupt (which happens to be an enabler).
About wipe away I also see a good player seeing you tutored it will give proU in his own turn. So since WA is 3cc you almost always need another bounce anyway. If you just never face counterbalances maybe you could test an aether spellbomb even if it isn't wishable. It's not completely dead in the combo turn and doesn't care of MoR.

Faerie Macabre sucks. If they dredge the first Cabal Therapy I can't let them go to their first mainphase, if they have a creature on the board. I need to pull the trigger immediately. Therefor, they can still use some sort of draw spell to get themselves additional Cabal Therapy's. Surgical simply removes an enabler and their best disruption spell once and for all. Also, if they hit three Cabal Therapy in a single Dredge six, Surgical is still better than Faerie Macabre, I guess.

For the Reanimator Matchup. They don't win counterwars against me. They simply don't. They might get a creature on the board by slamming reanimation spell after reanimation spell, because they play at least eleven of them, but they never win a counterwar. So why should I fight for the reanimation spell, when I can take the fight to the Surgical Extraction, where I'm sure I'm winning?

And for Aether Spellbomb. This is a joke right? In a deck that plays four Merchant Scroll and three Cunning Wish to fetch up bounce spells, you suggest an artifact? If they give their creature protection from blue on their own turn, they'll lose to Snap or some other sort of bounce I bring in. If they don't I get them with Wipe Away. Don't forget, that I can easily go for EoT Cunning Wish for Chain of Vapor, casting it immediately, forcing them to tap down their Mother of Runes, untap, Snap their creature and go off. It's not like they kill me anytime before turn six or seven. Oh and I still have Force of Will in my main to actually counter hatebears. And if they manage to stick a Canonist, I can still tutor up my Hurkyl's Recall.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I can't imagine running a board without Defense Grid. That card is so awesome. It completely hoses UW and RUG.

RUG often boards in pyroblasts, which are completely cold to a Defense Grid.

[flrn]

I can't imagine running a board without Defense Grid. That card is so awesome. It completely hoses UW and RUG.

RUG often boards in pyroblasts, which are completely cold to a Defense Grid.

You are basically running my old board, which I used in 2011. Defense Grid is a good card, don't get me wrong. It's a personal preference of mine to run the fourth Surgical Extraction, a Dispel and an additional bounce spell in those slots.

Postboard protection suite with Defense Grid: 4x Force of Will, 2x Flusterstorm, 3x Defense Grid, 1x Pact of Negation

Postboard protection suite without Defense Grid: 4x Force of Will, 4x Flusterstorm, 1x Dispel, 1x Pact of Negation

No clue, which one is better.

[xfxf]

For UW stoneblade having Dispel and Flusterstorm is fine I guess, you have more time to lay down lands if there's no pressure and get into a counter war by tapping those lands for counters when starting your combo. With RUG you are more likely to be under pressure and a Daze would ruin your Dispel on turn 4 after you tapped one land for High Tide (you don't always have that Turnabout in hand).

Have you considered -1 Flusterstorm, -1 Dispel, -1 Bounce, +3 Defense Grid in your sideboard? Dropping Chain of Vapor would make it:

4 Surgical Extraction
3 Defense Grid
1 Pact of Negation (nice wish target)
1 Meditate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze

With this setup you don't bring much against other combo except Surgicals though.

[Di]

Okay, I can finally break my silence and start talking on the deck. Just took a while for the report to get up. It can be found here (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10358) on TCGPlayer. The report itself isn't very in-depth because I wanted to keep a balance of report/other material, so if anyone is curious about specifics in any matchups I can provide them.



Also, @Di, have you faced many hatebears at GP: Indy?

I played against Maverick three times over the event and saw hate bears in every match. I went 3-0 against the deck, and despite dropping a game each round against it, I never felt behind at all. They just can't combine their hate bears with other elements to make me worry about it. My only real concern for hate bears is something like Meddling Mage out of a Stoneblade player's board, as they can protect it much better and interact with me.

@ Explore

Build was awful. I watched several of Michael Bernal's matches (played UG at Indy), and while he did well at first, the wheels fell off in day two and he couldn't keep up with aggressive decks with Wasteland. I saw him Wastelanded once, and that was enough for me.

@Candelabra/Retraced Image/Other Garbage

In my report/article I show my feelings about Candelabra and the importance I think it has on the deck. Running the deck without it is like running it with training wheels. If you can manage to get any number of Candelabras then I strongly advise you to run them. There's the obvious reason why if you can't get them, but the card is so important to the deck it seems outrageous not to use them if you can. I can attribute winning because of Candelabra to at least ten of my wins at Indianapolis. That's a huge number.

@Graveyard hate

The only cards that should be discussed here are either Surgical Extraction or Ravenous Trap. Period. If you can't Wish for it, odds are it sucks (Defense Grid is an exception here) and hurts your chances at stealing a game one. Faerie Macabre is awful compared to Extraction. There are only a few cards you need to worry about from a Dredge player, so Extracting them is by far the best option unless you're able to nuke their entire yard with Ravenous Trap. As for Reanimator, they essentially only run Force of Will for counters, and Daze is hardly relevant. If you can't resolve Surgical Extraction through them, you're doing it wrong. Just use them.

@Wipe Away/Hibernation

Hibernation having the ability to bounce Knights, Progenitus, etc, should be irrelevant most of the time, and is too narrow to run over Wipe Away. If you're using Wish to get a bounce spell to play defense early, you're in rough shape. Plus, the fact that Hibernation will not stop Thalia, Cannonist, Mother of Runes protecting something, or Counterbalance make it enough reason not to run in my book.


@Defense Grid

I realize this is a preference slot, but the card is incredible in blue matchups. Anytime I resolved the card at Indy, I won the game. It just shuts down the opponent's means of interacting with you so well that it seems difficult to find a reason not to run it. This is huge for matchups like RUG, who have numerous Blasts, and have relevant Dazes because they can pressure you early. Given it also indirectly turns off Snapcasters, Surgicals, draw step Cliques, etc, makes it worth the slot. Beyond that, the fact that it frees up your mana so you don't have to rely on Flusterstorm, or that it at least baits out a counterspell, makes it even better.

[flrn]

Have you considered -1 Flusterstorm, -1 Dispel, -1 Bounce, +3 Defense Grid in your sideboard? Dropping Chain of Vapor would make it:

4 Surgical Extraction
3 Defense Grid
1 Pact of Negation (nice wish target)
1 Meditate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze

With this setup you don't bring much against other combo except Surgicals though.

That's exactly the sideboard I used in late 2011, before I removed Defense Grid from it.


@Candelabra/Retraced Image/Other Garbage

In my report/article I show my feelings about Candelabra and the importance I think it has on the deck. Running the deck without it is like running it with training wheels. If you can manage to get any number of Candelabras then I strongly advise you to run them. There's the obvious reason why if you can't get them, but the card is so important to the deck it seems outrageous not to use them. I can attribute winning because of Candelabra to at least ten of my wins at Indianapolis. That's a huge number.

I tested Candelabra numerous times and it always was the card I took out of the deck first, when I was boarding. Even without Candelabra, I still have a positive record against Canadian (or RUG as you call it).

[xfxf]

I attended a weekly tournament today. It was 4 rounds with a booster prize. I used flrn's list and with the same sideboard. So here's how it went.

Round 1: Nicolas with Burn
Game 1 I'm on the play and he doesn't put too much pressure on me. I go off on turn 4 with 10 life.
Game 2 he has a fast start and by the time I assemble the combo I'm dead.
Game 3 I have a good hand but so does he. He drops me to 1. I topdeck the fourth Island instead of the fetchland I was holding so I go off.
1-0

Round 2: (Sorry I forgot your name buddy) UB Counterbalance!
Game 1 is a disaster. He sets up the lock, has discard, has Clique, has everything. I battle but it's a losing war. I either concede or get beaten by Snapcaster.
Game 2 is hilarious. It's a long and grindy game. We have a big counter battle over the Counterbalance and I win. A turn later he finds another one using Divining Top and Brainstorm tricks. Seeing that I can't resolve a High Tide I start laying down lands. I try to Turnabout his lands once to go off but somehow it doesn't work out for me. Finally at 8 lands and holding a Turnabout and Time Spiral I go off without a High Tide. My draw is incredible. I bait him with a Preordain, he flips a land to the Counterbalance and I resolve a High Tide to combo him out.
Game 3 is a long one as well. We are short on time and I'm very nervous since this is my first time in this store and I don't speak French so I'm worried whether I'm the annoying foreign combo player or not :). I try to play fast which messes me up even more. Again with 6 lands I Spiral without a High Tide in a last resort. My draw is 4 lands, 1 Merchant Scroll, 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Preordain. Preordain show land and Brainstorm. I can't figure out a way to win and we are at the last turn of time so I scoop my cards and shake his hand.
1-1

Round 3 Guillarme with Pox
Game 1 He leads with a turn 1 Entomb. I put him on Reanimator and FoW it. Next turn he lays down a Mishra's Factory and I'm left clueless. He casts a Dark Ritual into Sinkhole. I'm like :eek: I already kept a one lander trusting the Ponder in my hand but it only goes downhill from there and I scoop quickly.
Game 2 I have a decent hand but Pox, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Kozilek etc. gets too much. One of my Spirals gets in the bun and he makes sure to Extirpate it. I look at my hand, my 2 lands and scoop my cards.
1-2

Round 4 Pierre with RUG Zoo
Game 1 I have a very decent hand and he's slow on the pressure. I just can't draw a 3rd land despite multiple cantrips and need to Merchant Scroll for Brainstorm. Brainstorm shows me the goodies but due to Fetchlands he has lethal on the board.
Game 2 We have some small counter wars, he brings me down to around 8 if I'm not mistaken. Then I combo out.
Game 3 I'm able to combo out due to Snap returning his flipped Delver in his hand. After Spiral I have around 25 floating mana and 18-19 storm and a bunch of counters in hand but need to cast the second Spiral to find more business. The second Spiral gets there easily.
2-2

So in short it was an unexpected metagame. Didn't have the best matchups but I was able to break even with the 2 boosters I won :) Counterbalance is very hard but I believe isn't unwinnable. You just have to play very good. They have a lot of dead cards too. Pox is a beating. We played a casual third game afterwards and somehow I was able to sculpt a board with 4 lands and a hand with High Tide+Spiral to go off but I believe he wasn't playing tight since it was a casual game. For the real game Pox seems incredibly hard. For the sideboard I might have preferred -1 Chain of Vapor, -1 Dispel and +2 Spell Pierce but need to see it in the bigger French showdown this Saturday (BoM trials).

Props goes to all my opponents for being very friendly and welcoming and speaking in English with me the whole time :)

[juterz]

Okay. So is retraced image really out, for the current candel-less build? And why? Just asking.

[TerribleTim68]

Okay. So is retraced image really out, for the current candel-less build? And why? Just asking.

It's not out in my build. I still run it. Like I said, maybe it's just my playstyle, but I like it and I'm sticking with it. I guess it's up to you in the end, right? Or you could just do what someone else told you to. :wink:

[lebarion]

It's not out in my build. I still run it. Like I said, maybe it's just my playstyle, but I like it and I'm sticking with it. I guess it's up to you in the end, right? Or you could just do what someone else told you to. :wink:

TerribleTim is right. I don't use Retraced Image, but I can see the reason for running it. I believe it is up to your playstyle and metagame.
The same can be said about running 12 cantrips or not, running Remand or not, Brain Freeze or Blue Sun's Zenith kill in the main, etc.
(Candelabra adds some hundred dollars to the equation, so it is a different discussion. But I'm starting to believe that it is the best build)