[SCD] Candelabra of Tawnos [Archive]

android

03-02-2011, 11:10 AM

Candelabra of Tawnos

Artifact, 1 (1)

{X}, {T}: Untap X target lands.

Tawnos learned quickly from Urza that utter simplicity often led to wondrous, yet subtle utility.

Illus. Douglas Shuler

Okay, I feel like there has already been a SCD thread for this card but a search turned up nothing. A little bit of hype for this card recently as it's been featured in the Turbodrazi deck and a Spring Tide variant. I think it's a long time coming and that the card has much untapped potential. I just wanted to break down some of the numbers in support of why this card can be a mana producing powerhouse.

I'll illustrate some numbers with the card alone and in conjunction with a couple others that are not fringe cards but see play independently from CoT.

First off, let's take a look at where the card pays for itself. Obviously this is primarily focused on mana production and not for other activated abilities (where it could also prove beneficial).

Urza's Saga lands:
Tolarian Academy (this card's not for legacy dummy)
Serra's Sanctum - (enchantments x 2) - 1 mana
Gaea's Cradle - (creatures x 2) - 1 mana

Urzatron lands:
Tower - 5 mana
others - 3 mana (not as impressive)
reality (you have urzatron active) - minimum 11 mana compared to 7

Locus lands:
formula is something like ((locus x cloudpost/vesuva) x 2) - cloudpost/vesuva = lots of mana

Two cards worth mentioning here are going to be Voltaic Key and Crop Rotation as they add a whole new element to the equation.

Voltaic Key says -1 mana, recalculate. Crop Rotation says -g, add X (whatever X happens to be).

My conclusion is that for 1 colorless mana, the card does what no other card can do. I certainly do not think it's limited in it's application. It allows you to do things that not only add tempo to your deck but also push you so far a head of your opponent that they will not be able to match your mana production.

Bonus section:

I'm interested to look into other control or aggro applications such as multiple activations of Blinkmoth pumps or Factory pumps, multiple activations of Maze of Ith, multiple activations of Rishidan Port, etc. It certainly makes sense to use this card in a more versatile way than simply ramping mana.

Discuss...

nedleeds

03-02-2011, 05:13 PM

I play it in G/u/w/r Enchantress in conjunction with Sprawls and Heartbeat of Spring ... it can be Copy Artifacted ... and the Copy Artifact is still an enchantment ... which can be Copy Enchantmented. The mana production gets out of hand pretty quickly.

It would see more play if people owned them.

Finn

03-02-2011, 09:54 PM

A few years back I had some success with it in Spring Tide.

Pastorofmuppets

03-03-2011, 01:56 AM

A few years back I had some success with it in Spring Tide.

There's an old thread for Tide-Candelabra storm combo.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7599-[Deck]-Permanent-Waves
I would try this if I had the extra cash to piss away on four of a card I'd never use anywhere else.

dsck

03-03-2011, 06:06 AM

Too lazy to check myself.. Is Candelabra on reserve list? Any chance of it seeing reprint?

(nameless one)

03-03-2011, 07:24 AM

Too lazy to check myself.. Is Candelabra on reserve list? Any chance of it seeing reprint?

Yup. It's on the reserved list.

Magus of the Candelabra on the other hand...

rufus

03-03-2011, 10:06 AM

I do wonder a little about it's potential in concert with Amulet of Vigor, but there really doesn't seem to be a whole lot there except for (still slowly) cranking out lands with Thawing Glaciers. There really aren't many lands with tap abilities that are not mana, worthwhile, and usable more than once...Thawing Glaciers is probably on the top of that list, and the ability is not strong enough for Legacy. As far as I can tell, the only land so far that comes into play tapped and is worth untapping is Shelldock Isle.

Just like High Tide,Bubbling Muck could work well with the Candelabra, but black doesn't offer the same alternative untap effects or cantrip suite as blue.

It seems a little odd to me that the usual 2-mana lands (City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb) didn't make the list of cards that might work with Candelabra. Admittedly, it's just :1: per turn per 2-land, but it is colorless acceleration that might work in an affinity deck as Grim Monolith 5-8. Even then, there are competitors like Dark Ritual and Seething Song.

Regarding mana production: in order to be competitive with other acceleration available in the format, the Candelabra really needs to be in a setup where you expect to see X lands producing at least X+2 mana. Without that, cards like Chrome Mox,Lotus Petal, Grim Monolith or Simian Spirit Guide will outperform it.

adrock

03-03-2011, 10:33 AM

Hi there, first post here on the source.

I was thinking perhaps it could find a place in a stax shell?

Allowing openings like:

City of Traitors
Candleabra
Untap City
Chalice of the Void set at 1

(nameless one)

03-03-2011, 11:55 AM

Hi there, first post here on the source.

I was thinking perhaps it could find a place in a stax shell?

Allowing openings like:

City of Traitors
Candleabra
Untap City
Chalice of the Void set at 1

Why not just go

City of Traitors > Chalice of the Void set at 1?

Finn

03-03-2011, 12:01 PM

I want to be sure to mention that Candelabra of Tawnos is pretty much the nutz in 2hg, even crazier than Standstill.

dahcmai

03-03-2011, 03:24 PM

I remember when I first saw that card I put it into this combo deck with Teferi's isle. Remember this was during Mirage so I wasn't real smart about it and the cards were limited anyway. Long story short, I was using it to untap Teferi's Isle and Braingeyser people out. Funny thing was I won several tournaments before i ran into someone who actually knew what a mono-artifact was and told me it wasn't a two card infinite mana combo.

They reside in my Sorrow's Path/Giant Shark fun deck now. I've seen a 3 color Spring Tide deck from a couple of pros and it's fairly fast. Uses Green for Moment's Peace like the normal ones do that splash green, but adds Explore to jump that 1 turn it really needs vs Zoo and other really fast aggro. The Red, I didn't really see what the purpose was. I only saw it at a glance and had it explained some. So probably Pyroblast or sweepers like Firespout since you're already good vs control.

android

03-03-2011, 04:07 PM

Although I intended this discussion to be about competitive uses of the card, I will add that I have a fun budget vintage deck where the card is used. Granted, it plays a minor role, I does exactly what I need it to do when I need it done. The deck features Myr Retriever/Junkdiver and basically dumps it's hand T1 through use of Helm of Awakening/Cloud Key/Locket of Yesterdays. It has Skullclamp, Sensei's Divining Top, Sol Ring, Voltaic Key, Grim Monolith, Tolarian Academy and Candelabra. It does some funny stuff with Tolarian Winds and generally wins by drawing/tutoring up Blasting Station or Altar of Dementia. I think there are a number of newer cards that I could put in but I haven't touched the deck in a couple years now.

At any rate, when Candelabra comes down, shit gets explosive. It's the ultimate glass cannon.

jimirynk

03-10-2011, 05:23 PM

So now that this card is 250 and looking to go up I feel like the discussion of IS THIS CARD GOING TO BE BANNED? I was skeptic myself but at the end of Patrick Chapin last article he ended with this,

Patrick Chapin
"The Innovator"

P.S. If I heard a voice in my head, it might have said that Time Spiral in Legacy is the real deal, and people ought be careful in case of eventual format changes or whatever that might suddenly render their Candelabras worth much less (though that day is far off). Of course, I'm definitely not saying that I hear voices in my head.

Thoughts?

TheShaun

03-10-2011, 06:22 PM

I don't think it's impossible to get banned eventually, but as of right now there is absolutely not enough evidence of it deserving a ban. Of the two recent solid deck finishes that included the card, I don't think Candelabra was the most powerful in either. It won't be banned due to price, at least not while Imperial Recruiter is still so ridiculous.

Whippoorwill

03-10-2011, 07:45 PM

I think if anything that Spiral will get banned before Candelabra does. Drawing 7 cards, usually for free or a net gain of mana is a bigger issue than untapping lands.

Though it would be funny if they banned High Tide instead (though I doubt Sprial Tide will become a big enough problem to warrant any ban).

Tammit67

03-10-2011, 08:14 PM

If it is seen as a problem in the future, merchant scroll would be a good ban, hindering Spiral's redundancy while getting rid of a tutor from the general legacy card pool.

death

03-10-2011, 10:02 PM

psshh what are we talking about? why even begin discussing banning any of the pieces all of a sudden, the deck is terrible.

Candelabra of Tawnos

It will be like every other flash in the pan card. It'll be back down to normal value in a week or two. Other than this potential high-tide deck, what value does it have outside of casual?

I just don't see it taking first place at...well...anywhere. It's stupid that these are so expensive now, but hey, it's semi-playable and old in Legacy, it's not $70+.

@Death: I disagree quite massively with a lot of the things you've been saying in these last posts:

Candelabra is far from broken, it's never anything but a worse Turnabout at best

Time Spiral

Time Spiral is pretty terrible when it can't untap Academy.

I mean, High Tide decks are still incredibly awful even with Time Spiral. Doomsday guarantees a kill while Time Spiral gives you seven random cards and may or may not give your opponent a fresh hand of Forces.

The card does nothing in Legacy but will get snapped up because apparently people still haven't learned from the Grim Monolith unbanning.

Although the card is incredibly powerful in what it does, the only place I'm playing it is in a casual multi-player Psychic Possession deck so I can go off and kill them with a Conflagrate. But in my case, I'd much rather see Winds of Change.

Time Spiral
Cost: 6 mana (untaps some lands)
Does it win you the game on the spot? Nope.

Adn costs one mana less than Time Spiral and cannot be countered by Red Elemental Blast.

Sorry to burst your bubble but I don't see Time Spiral > Ad Nauseam.

+2 CMC makes it worse than DR, and you would never untap 6 lands with it

We all love high tide, but the fact is, it can't win against CB, it can't win against Fish, it can't win against other combo, and Gobs with some REBs/Chalice/Thorn can beat it. Adding Time Spiral doesn't change any of that.

sdematt

03-10-2011, 10:27 PM

Sure, he won. Big whoop. The card still shouldn't be this expensive, but it is. I didn't say it wouldn't spike, I just don't think it should.

You could also say the same thing about Legacy playable that does well. If Land Tax was never banned but suddenly did well, it'd spike too I'm sure. Maybe not $200, but still it'd jump.

As well, I'm sure if you showed up with a new deck that people really aren't prepared for at a SCG tournament you could win it too. Who knows, depending on your matchups, you could go all the way with Mono Red Burn.

Also, I'm pretty sure I was referring to 12-post Eldrazi when I said that.

-Matt

death

03-11-2011, 12:23 AM

Good for you. Now sell them.

I'm not saying Spiral Tide is terrible, I just don't see it taking first place at...well...anywhere.

-Matt

I'm sorry.

dahcmai

03-11-2011, 12:24 AM

I have to admit, I didn't think the deck was that great. It's high tide again. It's not even all that different than the first time around. That said, I still don't think it's that great. It's still the same old High Tide deck of years past. It was a pain to beat back then and is fast, but it's no superdeck. There's been a lot of hate printed since then. Candelabra is a nice trick (makes me wonder why we never played it back then), but it's a one trick pony.

I can see perfectly how you could dominate a tournament full of people who have never seen that thing before. It wasn't a bad deck at all, in fact it was pretty damned amazing and I'm surprised the DCI let this one out of the bag again. It was a serious force the first time around. It's also quite ridiculous if you have never seen how it works and have no idea how to play against it. I expect this trend to continue since most people won't take the time to test against it and even if they do, it's going to be against crappy pilots as it requires some amount of familiarity to play properly.

Guess Quinn just got game again. Mono-W control Scroll Tax decks were the ones who put High Tide out of business the first time. Now just give us that damned Land Tax back! We need our Parfait!

lordofthepit

03-11-2011, 01:21 AM

Guess Quinn just got game again. Mono-W control Scroll Tax decks were the ones who put High Tide out of business the first time. Now just give us that damned Land Tax back! We need our Parfait!

From the Quinn primer on matchups.

Solidarity: 1:Graham's Number. I don't think it's actually possible to win this matchup against a competent opponent unless they have a heart attack midway through the round.

Granted, I've never tested this matchup out, but it looks completely miserable to the Quinn player to me. Having 8 Chant effects can marginally improve the Spiral High Tide matchup over the Solidarity one, which can just go off with Chant on the stack, but still, the combination of no clock and so many dead board control cards makes the matchup seem untenable. What am I missing?

sdematt

03-11-2011, 02:12 AM

You realize I'm never going to give in to your comments, don't you Death? :)

I stand by my words: I don't see it having Vengevine-like success. If it does, many people spent way too much money, but even then I won't concede defeat.

-Matt

Pippin

03-11-2011, 02:22 AM

If it does, many people spent way too much money, but even then I won't concede defeat.

-Matt

Same like other people spent way too much money on beta duals, P3K cards, or any other scarce card. Right? :)
Main culprit here isn't really the result of a single deck. Its several results + scarcity, and one can even throw space for innovation in the mix.

Like already said before, Mishra's Workshop is what? 200-300$ per piece in a format that is almost dead, or has cheap alternatives (proxies). Candelabra is also unrestricted, has same number of copies out there, no real alternatives and is played in a format that is X times more popular than T1. Seems like easy math

kiblast

03-11-2011, 06:37 AM

Same like other people spent way too much money on beta duals, P3K cards, or any other scarce card. Right? :)

Dropping 800 eur on a Beta mint Sea seems a way more intelligent investment than dropping 500 eur on a crappy mono artifact set. For P3K cards you could be right, as they're subject to the up and downs of their playability (see Retainers going from 170$ and ultra hyped to 100$ binder junk), but Beta Duals are f'cking Beta Duals. They can't go down in price. Also buying FBB or Beta Duals is all about how much you want to look cool, while buying a playset of Candelabra now is all about how much you want to look idiot.

Pippin

03-11-2011, 07:31 AM

Dropping 800 eur on a Beta mint Sea seems a way more intelligent investment than dropping 500 eur on a crappy mono artifact set. For P3K cards you could be right, as they're subject to the up and downs of their playability (see Retainers going from 170$ and ultra hyped to 100$ binder junk), but Beta Duals are f'cking Beta Duals. They can't go down in price. Also buying FBB or Beta Duals is all about how much you want to look cool, while buying a playset of Candelabra now is all about how much you want to look idiot.

With all due respect, but this is very subjective. For example, for me personally its useless to buy FBB or Beta Duals since you have cheaper alternatives with completely the same functionality. When looking at Candelabra, there aren't cheaper alternatives with same functionality. In the end, it all boils down to scarcity issue and what's one willing to dump on a piece of cardboard.

kiblast

03-11-2011, 07:58 AM

With all due respect, but this is very subjective. For example, for me personally its useless to buy FBB or Beta Duals since you have cheaper alternatives with completely the same functionality. When looking at Candelabra, there aren't cheaper alternatives with same functionality. In the end, it all boils down to scarcity issue and what's one willing to dump on a piece of cardboard.

Frankly, it's not subjective.

I'm just saying: Buying a set of Candelabra now at 500 eur is stupid.Because they were available for less than a third of that price 2 weeks ago. I hope you don't find this subjective.

And: Buying Beta Duals/ FBB is all about the coolness of playing with Beta Duals/ FBB. And their price is not going to go down, unless people stop playing MTG or Wiz reprints them (very unlikely to happen). Ergo, since their price can't go down, it's a good investment, while buying Candelabras now is not a good investment. Because they're part of a deck which will not dominate the format, and they already reached their $ peak. Buying goods when they're at their peak price is not a nice move if you ask me.

If a player wants Candelabras for this price,and buys them, he will always be the one who spent 500 eur on a crappy playset, wich was available for 150 eur not more than 2 weeks ago. With all respect, anybody doing this doesn't give proof of smartness.

sdematt

03-11-2011, 10:06 AM

I approve that this discussion is now about Beta duals :)

-Matt

death

03-11-2011, 10:39 AM

Also buying FBB or Beta Duals is all about how much you want to look cool, while buying a playset of Candelabra now is all about how much you want to look idiot.

If a player wants Candelabras for this price, and buys them, he will always be the one who spent 500 eur on a crappy playset, wich was available for 150 eur not more than 2 weeks ago. With all respect, anybody doing this doesn't give proof of smartness.

It is unfair to label those buying stuff at their corrected prices as stupid. Cards do appreciate in value especially the most used and rarest ones. Otherwise we're all just stupid for playing magic. But based on what your saying, doesn't purchasing FBB/Beta duals now while there are cheaper and functionally identical FWB/Revised copies seem a little stupid?

Personally, what I think as cool are players who innovate and reach top 8 consistently, like lsv and gerry t. I've never seen these pros rock Beta duals and I honestly don't care. Beta duals won't prove you're smarter than your WB opponent. Those with Betas who consistently fail top 8 with their netdecks look more idiotic than those who dare to make a difference.

This is just my own perception of being cool.

sdematt

03-11-2011, 11:22 AM

Most of them also are professional magic players. If I was a pro at Magic and that's what I did, I'm sure I'd do well too.

-Matt

samurai_socks

03-11-2011, 12:59 PM

kiblast

03-11-2011, 01:35 PM

It is unfair to label those buying stuff at their corrected prices as stupid. Cards do appreciate in value especially the most used and rarest ones. Otherwise we're all just stupid for playing magic. But based on what your saying, doesn't purchasing FBB/Beta duals now while there are cheaper and functionally identical FWB/Revised copies seem a little stupid?

Personally, what I think as cool are players who innovate and reach top 8 consistently, like lsv and gerry t. I've never seen these pros rock Beta duals and I honestly don't care. Beta duals won't prove you're smarter than your WB opponent. Those with Betas who consistently fail top 8 with their netdecks look more idiotic than those who dare to make a difference.

This is just my own perception of being cool.

Probably you didn't understand what I said, or you read it superficially. I'm not absolutely saying that players rocking Beta stuff are doing it better, or are better players. I'm just saying that buying any good (not only MtG cards) at its top peak price is stupid, when the same good was available for a third of that price just 15 days before. And as any serious collector/ shop owner could tell you Beta duals can't decrease price, while other scarce cards played just in a specific archetype are subject to the ups and downs of the playability/strenght of that archetype.

That's why spending 900 bucks on four Candelabra's (wich probably is their value peak) is stupid, when they were available for much much less as early as 2 weeks ago. While dropping 900 bucks on a minty Beta dual is less stupid, because that dual, if kept nicely over the years, will increase its price. Candelabra will not. In fact, once hype vanishes and/or meta shifts, it will decrease sensibly. That's why my WB Tundras , bought for 25 eur each 6 months ago, now are 55 eur each. Do you see Tundras going down in the next years? I'm not. Do you see Candelabra's going down in the next years? I am.

Edit: Pros rock FBB and Beta shit. Lot of them do.

Amon Amarth

03-11-2011, 03:25 PM

kiblast

03-11-2011, 04:01 PM

I can't see why anyone would buy Candelabras at this point; the price is ridiculous. If I had a set I'd sell them now. I can't imagine a niche card like that ever staying at these prices once the hype dies down.

That's what I'm saying. Nobody will buy at this ridicolous price and Candelabra will start flooding market with all the players wanting to unload them at nut high price. And price will decrease.

android

03-11-2011, 04:18 PM

Awesome, then I'll buy more.

(nameless one)

03-11-2011, 04:28 PM

Guess Quinn just got game again. Mono-W control Scroll Tax decks were the ones who put High Tide out of business the first time. Now just give us that damned Land Tax back! We need our Parfait!

Unfortunately, Quinn isn't the same as Parfait. Oh, how I only wish they will bring Land Tax back

Granted, I've never tested this matchup out, but it looks completely miserable to the Quinn player to me. Having 8 Chant effects can marginally improve the Spiral High Tide matchup over the Solidarity one, which can just go off with Chant on the stack, but still, the combination of no clock and so many dead board control cards makes the matchup seem untenable. What am I missing?

This. As a Quinn Player, I just hope and pray that I am playing against someone incompetent. Sure Chant effects can 'slow' them down. Trying to get a Leyline of Sanctity might slow them down as well but hey, every deck has a bad matchup right?

Back to the topic, would Magus of the Candelabra be played in some niche decks that uses this (such as TurboDrazi?) Yes, having a summoning sickness sucks but its nearly identitcal (although you can't use it in High Tide decks)

sdematt

03-11-2011, 09:05 PM

Do they have a "Destroy Enchantment" card (The High Tide deck)?

Also, I know LSV had A/B Seas in his Reanimator, but whether they were his or the stores was in question, and they weren't NM.

-Matt

(nameless one)

03-11-2011, 10:14 PM

Do they have a "Destroy Enchantment" card (The High Tide deck)?

Also, I know LSV had A/B Seas in his Reanimator, but whether they were his or the stores was in question, and they weren't NM.

-Matt

Not that I recall, although they do have Wishable bounce. If that happens, you're definitely sure they're gonna combo FTW.

Returning back to the topic, how debilitating is it to Spiral Tide if you Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker Candelabra?

Tammit67

03-11-2011, 10:54 PM

Not that I recall, although they do have Wishable bounce. If that happens, you're definitely sure they're gonna combo FTW.

Returning back to the topic, how debilitating is it to Spiral Tide if you Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker Candelabra?

They still have a lot of untappers, candelabra isn't needed if you give them enough time.

sdematt

03-11-2011, 11:06 PM

If you follow Needle with discard or a clock, you should be fine. If they can't untap with Candles, they'll need at least 4 Islands or more to get going manually. If you take their High Tide, going off at Low Tide without Candles is probably going to be difficult.

-Matt

Forbiddian

03-12-2011, 12:19 PM

I have to admit, I didn't think the deck was that great. It's high tide again. It's not even all that different than the first time around. That said, I still don't think it's that great. It's still the same old High Tide deck of years past. It was a pain to beat back then and is fast, but it's no superdeck. There's been a lot of hate printed since then. Candelabra is a nice trick (makes me wonder why we never played it back then), but it's a one trick pony.

I will remember that you said this. This deck looks scary, and it's quite a bit different than other High Tide variants. Other than "you can't lucksack win on turn 1 or 2" it doesn't share the weaknesses of Solidarity.

1) The main weakness of Solidarity is actually getting to the High Tides. You need at least 1 and more realistically 2 to go off, and they're also a primary target for countermagic. This deck runs 4 copies of Merchant Scroll.

2) Every refresh combo in Solidarity is worse than Time Spiral. Meditate --> Reset is the nutsack draw for Solidarity, but Time Spiral trumps that completely.

3) This deck is not running Opt or Impulse. It's actually running Ponders/Brainstorms/Preordains. Its ability to dig for missing parts is quite a bit more impressive, so is its ability to recover from disruption.

I've only goldfished this deck a few times, but it feels incredibly different than playing Solidarity. The setup turns are much more goal-oriented and faster and its ability to get a second high tide for another win attempt is pretty astonishing, much better than the remand trick.

dsck

03-12-2011, 01:04 PM

JCLe

03-12-2011, 01:07 PM

psshh what are we talking about? why even begin discussing banning any of the pieces all of a sudden, the deck is terrible.

Candelabra of Tawnos

Time Spiral

Why do you use random quotes that are out of context, I said that in response to time spiral in ad nauseam shell.

Regarding the real subject,
It's hard to tell how high or low this card will go, right now it's just speculation phase as it's just started to perform... If I had to guess I wouldn't even know on this one.

Take for example imperial recruiters + aluren, it has spiked at columbus and even without a real result it's still expensive as f*ck for no reason except a few rather uncommon decks (but good) like bomberman/imperial painter.