[Free Article] Mythbusters: Vintage Edition

[voltron00x]

Yeah, I know, Vintage article, etc.

There was a thread on The Source a while back about Vintage that was really illuminating to me. I know that changing people's minds about Vintage is an uphill battle, if not an impossible one; this article really isn't so much about that.

Instead, it's an article on how to win at Vintage. When we look at how to win games of Vintage (at a high level), and try to understand what Vintage really is, we find that a lot of the myths about the format aren't really grounded in the reality of what Vintage is, today.

There are a lot of comparisons to Legacy in the article also, as the formats are more closely related than the hard-core zealots in either format like to admit.

In any case, I am posting here as some of you either play both formats, or have an open mind, and may find it to be an interesting read (or so I hope).

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/21263_The_Long_And_Winding_Road_Mythbusters_Vintage_Edition.html

[GGoober]

Hey Matt,

Nice article to stress the core of MTG across formats (fully agree on this).

For myself, Vintage is a fun format, really tough to master (any format is really because you need to know the key cards and strategies and counterstrategies). The only problem that I have with Vintage is due to its nature, it is very bomb-centric. There are very very powerful cards that will win games in manners not possible elsewhere. The format is really on the back of these cards, or answers to these cards. From some number of games, I am getting (perhaps a mislead feeling) that games are all about resolving your bombs and answering opponents, there is hardly any room outside of this area. Interactions are dense and plenty, but they still all revolve around resolving bombs or opposing bombs.

Deck designing is also a very constrained factor, although it's much nicer to see a lot more innovation in Vintage compared to previous years. All in all, I feel that Legacy is as simliar to Vintage, but due to the fact that there is much more room for breathing (i.e. more room to not just be focused on playing bombs and resolving bombs), I feel that it's going to be hard for me to like Vintage the same way as Legacy. Vintage does give you awesome feelings when you're doing broken shit though :P

Let me know if you have any thoughts on how this aspect of Vintage can be addressed, whether I'm accurate in my depiction of Vintage, and whether this is another key reason people deter from Vintage events (at least i know bulk of my playgroup thinks this way about vintage, they own power etc, but still prefer Legacy on the whole).

[overseer1234]

Sorry but I couldn't let you off this one unnoticed


Complex combat math, as we can see in Limited formats even, is not present at all in Vintage

The entire article article is like "vintage isn't as different as other format's" and here you are saying this......

I mean, with the rampant growth of Agro MUD decks and with ichorid, oath and fish in the format (and there are a heck of a lot different fish decks), combat math/tricks is/are becoming a pretty big part of the complexity in vintage.

[voltron00x]

Just because there is combat, doesn't mean that combat is complex; at least in the many, many events I've played, creature combat in Vintage is really simple compared to other formats. I don't want to mislead anyone into thinking Vintage has lots of creatures battling. It is, by a very wide margin, the constructed format with the least creature combat. But, for some people, that's actually part of the appeal.

For example, consider the decks you noted. Oath and Dredge don't really have "creature combat", despite winning with creatures. While Fish and MUD certainly do, generally MUD is bashing you with creatures while you have no board, due to resistors; Fish is perhaps the one deck where creature combat does get interesting as some play Plow and they have Goyf, and Exalted effects, but again, more often than not, these creatures are turning sideways into a board that's empty on the other side in a race against spells.

[overseer1234]

Just because there is combat, doesn't mean that combat is complex; at least in the many, many events I've played, creature combat in Vintage is really simple compared to other formats. I don't want to mislead anyone into thinking Vintage has lots of creatures battling. It is, by a very wide margin, the constructed format with the least creature combat. But, for some people, that's actually part of the appeal.

For example, consider the decks you noted. Oath and Dredge don't really have "creature combat", despite winning with creatures. While Fish and MUD certainly do, generally MUD is bashing you with creatures while you have no board, due to resistors; Fish is perhaps the one deck where creature combat does get interesting as some play Plow and they have Goyf, and Exalted effects, but again, more often than not, these creatures are turning sideways into a board that's empty on the other side in a race against spells.

No offense, but the only decks that you will be turning your guys sideways only racing spells with your creatures are Tezz and combo decks (okay, every powered non MUD vintage deck is basically a combo deck but you know what I mean), and even they play trygon predator and dark confidant.

Creature combat is becoming more important in vintage then people (and probably you yourself) think. Especially in non proxy environments where there isn't a lot of power/shop's/bazaar around for everyone, and they get to play fish mirror's all day long...

Not only that, but creature's ARE simply getting better the more they print them (I mean, the fish-Oath matchup suddenly totally flipped since they printed pridemage) so it should not surprise anybody they start to show up more often in vintage.


Greetzzz,
Robin.

PS: I use the term fish for practically everything that's not powered or doesn't play shop or bazaar. Meaning budget dark time's, selky strike, chrstmas beatings, TMWA is all "Fish" to me... (And even though I have shop's and power, I still like to play these kind of decks... as I like being the underdog)

[Artowis]

No offense, but the only decks that you will be turning your guys sideways only racing spells with your creatures are Tezz and combo decks (okay, every powered non MUD vintage deck is basically a combo deck but you know what I mean), and even they play trygon predator and dark confidant.

Creature combat is becoming more important in vintage then people (and probably you yourself) think. Especially in non proxy environments where there isn't a lot of power/shop's/bazaar around for everyone, and they get to play fish mirror's all day long...

Not only that, but creature's ARE simply getting better the more they print them (I mean, the fish-Oath matchup suddenly totally flipped since they printed pridemage) so it should not surprise anybody they start to show up more often in vintage.


Greetzzz,
Robin.

PS: I use the term fish for practically everything that's not powered or doesn't play shop or bazaar. Meaning budget dark time's, selky strike, chrstmas beatings, TMWA is all "Fish" to me... (And even though I have shop's and power, I still like to play these kind of decks... as I like being the underdog)

None of this means that the combat is actually difficult or complex in any fashion.