Impressions on the new metagame?

[lordofthepit]

I've noticed that since the changes to the B&R list on December 20, 2010, that the metagame has been quite open.

If we look at Star City Games Top 8results as a barometer, we see the following trends:

- Kansas City (1/9): Lots of Vial decks with some Countertop
- San Jose (1/16): More Vial and Countertop, with the latter making adjustment to deal with the former
- Indianapolis (2/6): More Countertop, some Vial decks, with new decks (Forgemaster Combo, Junk and Taxes, Show and Tell, etc.) designed to prey on Vial decks
- Washington, D.C. (2/27): Team America, Doomsday, and especially Zoo made prominent appearances in response to Countertop and Vial decks
- Edison (3/6): Lots of Combo decks (High Tide, Ad Nauseam, Dredge) and Rock, plus Affinity, which have solid to favorable Zoo matchups.

Do you guys consider this a good indication of the health of the format? It seems that the players in the format can change the metagame within weeks to adjust to the new contenders. To me, this is the most beautiful aspect of Legacy.

[colo]

I just hope that this overly combo-centric shit isn't catching on and a thing that's here to stay. I would hate playing a format where you'll have to answer your opponent's single bomb at all costs, or you're effectively out of the game turn 1 to 3.

[Cthuloo]

I love this kind of meta. In the last year or so legacy's meta was starting to look boring and predictable like it is in all the other formats (the Zoo-Counterbalance- Combo triangle first, the Vial Aggro dominated months, and the Survival Autumn). In the past few months we have seen literally everything ( a scapeshift deck just made top 8 at a 100 people tournament in Italy, by the way). The format is crazy, and that's the way I like it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zu0p7xWLoU).

[(nameless one)]

Although sideboarding does get harder, I approve of this meta.

[.nemesis]

Although sideboarding does get harder, I approve of this meta.

100% Agreed. There's some really awesome stuff happening everywhere.

Also, the new flood of unfair decks (Forgemaster MUD, High Tide, Tendrils and the likes) will hopefully be pushing Zoo where it belongs, which is being a niche decks for tribal-centric metagames.

[anonymos]

100% Agreed. There's some really awesome stuff happening everywhere.

Also, the new flood of unfair decks (Forgemaster MUD, High Tide, Tendrils and the likes) will hopefully be pushing Zoo where it belongs, which is being a niche decks for tribal-centric metagames.

Be careful about using the word "unfair". They're just faster and less creature oriented than what things have been in the past (except MUD). I think that it's good to have a nice solid shakeup. I got tired of seeing countertop everywhere. We just need a new "control" deck now that can keep pace with this stuff.

[PhantomLotus]

I agree, this is a very healthy format right now. The wide variety of decks top-16ing, and the week-to-week meta shifts are good indications. If combo continues to do well, I would expect to see more Merfolk at the next SCG 5k's -- which in turn would push Zoo back to the front. Classic rock-paper-scissors. Good stuff.

[GGoober]

As much as I love Survival and hated its unfair demise, I love the format as it is post-Survival ban. Lots of exciting decks that are springing up!

[Gaius Darkfire]

Going by just the Star City top 16 results since Survival was banned, we've seen around 20-ish unique decks perform well. While there are certainly consistent staples, we've also seen a huge resurgence in variety, innovation, and overall options. You can play damn near anything at this point, and I'm loving it.

[Meekrab]

Be careful about using the word "unfair". They're just faster and less creature oriented than what things have been in the past (except MUD). I think that it's good to have a nice solid shakeup. I got tired of seeing countertop everywhere. We just need a new "control" deck now that can keep pace with this stuff.
'Fair' is just an MtGtheSource euphemism for 'the way I want to play Magic'.

And control will be dead to this format until Mana Drain gets unbanned, and even then "control" will probably just mean "Mana Drain your Goyf, untap, Ad Naseum."

[TsumiBand]

And control will be dead to this format until Mana Drain gets unbanned, and even then "control" will probably just mean "Mana Drain your Goyf, untap, Ad Naseum."

I just got over the flu and already I want to puke again. Here's to hoping we never see Drain in Legacy.

[Gheizen64]

'Fair' is just an MtGtheSource euphemism for 'the way I want to play Magic'.

And control will be dead to this format until Mana Drain gets unbanned, and even then "control" will probably just mean "Mana Drain your Goyf, untap, Ad Naseum."

I wouldn't be that drastic.






You'd just need to unban balance.

[android]

I wouldn't be that drastic.






You'd just need to unban balance.

Sol Ring is safe. :eek:

[FieryBalrog]

Wide open, and beautiful.

I'm keeping a wary eye on the way combo has mutated into a multi-headed beast, but so far combo seems a fair and healthy portion of the metagame. Watching Spring Tide v. Junk finals made it clear that even a deck with hardly any hate to bring in or any solid anti-combo cards can bring the fight to combo quite powerfully.

[Grollub]

And control will be dead to this format until Mana Drain gets unbanned, and even then "control" will probably just mean "Mana Drain your Goyf, untap, Ad Naseum."

Alternatively it could realize we're now in 2011 and Counterbalance is bad. ;-)

[android]

Discard is as anti-combo as counter magic. A good combo deck builds in redundancy to accommodate.

[(nameless one)]

Doesn't Enchantress count as control?

Maybe Quinn or other white-based control decks will shine. I mean they have answers to everything but control.

[bakofried]

As stated earlier, I don't like the ban...but I like the results. Tricky situation.

[Nessaja]

This is just a metagame that is still in development, due to unbannings and new sets there isn't an established order yet. It might not come but it is way too soon to tell.

[Amon Amarth]

Alternatively it could realize we're now in 2011 and Counterbalance is bad. ;-)

I think Counterbalance is relatively bad in the abstract because there are way too many Vials and decks with weird curves. It's hard to justify going through so much effort to resolve and protect that enchantment in this metagame. That being said, I think it perfectly acceptable if you use it to protect 'Noughts and Confidants.

And this meta is awesome.

[(nameless one)]

I think Counterbalance is relatively bad in the abstract because there are way too many Vials and decks with weird curves. It's hard to justify going through so much effort to resolve and protect that enchantment in this metagame. That being said, I think it perfectly acceptable if you use it to protect 'Noughts and Confidants.

And this meta is awesome.

But by the looks of it, Combo is making a comeback. Doesnt CounterTop decks have good matchup against Ritual based and High Tide based combo decks?

[Finn]

Yeah it does. You can't really say that Counterbalance decks suck when there is so much flux going on. That goes for all close-to-the-top archetypes. Some weeks they are a good choice, some others not so much.

[wcm8]

I like that there is a constant flux... Some weeks playing goblins is the best idea, other times you wish you were packing force of will..and there are a bunch of archetypes that prey upon more common decks... All in all I'd say this is the best that legacy's been since I got back into Magic, and I hope that 'tier 1' remains undefined.

[SpikeyMikey]

I guess I see this differently than everyone else. There's a difference between what makes T8 and what the rest of the field is. At Indy for example, I don't think the field was at all conducive to Countertop but multiple copies made T8. But there was a lot of Affinity and Vial decks were all over the place. I agree that there is no clearly defined metagame right now but I think what you're seeing is a result of a highly regionalized set of tournaments. This isn't the pro tour or even 1 of the 2 grand prixes and doesn't draw the kind of national crowds that those events do. People wait for nearby SCG's. So it's more heavily affected by. Local metas

[SMR0079]

It's nice to see the format moving in waves. We have had a huge wave of aggro over the past few months that has stabilized. Now we see a larger then avergage size amount of combo ~25% that is preying on aggro. Conversely, the control decks that are doing the best have a tempo element built in.

[menace13]

The most diverse format ever. The SCGs 5k series is wide open.

I counted 21 different deck types out of 48 in the top 8s of the last 6 5ks -Kansas City, San Jose, Indianopolis, D.C, NJ, Memphis- combined.

[jazzykat]

... but I think what you're seeing is a result of a highly regionalized set of tournaments. This isn't the pro tour or even 1 of the 2 grand prixes and doesn't draw the kind of national crowds that those events do. People wait for nearby SCG's. So it's more heavily affected by. Local metas

While I am sure that is mostly true, I would point out that there seems to be a group of players who have their names (Bertonnici, Sacher, Levin/Durwald, the Ben W the Lawyer guy?, etc.) in (almost) every SCG Legacy Open top 16. They appear to be a VERY powerful factor when determining the winners as one of them often is.

The open series is looking more and more to me (a total outsider) to be a semi-pro/pro-am event where a few badasses are winning enough to at least pay for their gas and hotel room on a regular basis, and the rest of the regional players (or those who travel but don't often place in the money) make it into the top 16 sometimes.

While I am really unhappy about MT being banned and the price of Jace the wallet raper the format is incredible, wide open, and so diverse it makes my head explode. In short, I love it!

[FieryBalrog]

MT being banned looks like a great decision in retrospect, can you imagine the field if it was legal? Combo is doing more than enough already: ANT is still showing up, Doomsday Show decks, NO Show decks, High Tide decks, Painter's Stone decks (2 made top 16 in Memphis). And nearly all of these decks, plus Reanimator at the least, would get a huge boost in consistency from Mystical Tutor.

Wizards knows what they're doing.

[(nameless one)]

So Survival of the Fittest and Mystical Tutor bannings were the right call after all.

[AriLax]

MT being banned looks like a great decision in retrospect, can you imagine the field if it was legal? Combo is doing more than enough already: ANT is still showing up, Doomsday Show decks, NO Show decks, High Tide decks, Painter's Stone decks (2 made top 16 in Memphis). And nearly all of these decks, plus Reanimator at the least, would get a huge boost in consistency from Mystical Tutor.

Wizards knows what they're doing.

It's kind of cool how your point about combo being good enough already also brings out the point that what combo you can play opens up a lot without Mystical around. With Mystical around you would be looking at Reanimator, ANT, and maaaybe DD Show as real decks. Without it Reanimator loses the ability to always have the perfect guy and ANT becomes much more convoluted and vulnerable to MD hate, letting something like High Tide (which despite being a bit slower than ANT has better outs to a MD Teeg or similar) exist.

[SMR0079]

The SCG series is causing the format is move faster then ever before. I've played Legacy since before it was Legacy and this is the healthiest the format has ever been, and the closest to a real PtQ format where each event causes significant changes for the next. An interesting example is how well Merfolk places. It was completely absent fromthe top 16 for two events then won the last event. The format went from heavy aggro where Merfolk was pushed out, to combo tempo-control orientated in the periord of two events. Very exciting time to be involved wiht Legacy.

[SpikeyMikey]

While I am sure that is mostly true, I would point out that there seems to be a group of players who have their names (Bertonnici, Sacher, Levin/Durwald, the Ben W the Lawyer guy?, etc.) in (almost) every SCG Legacy Open top 16. They appear to be a VERY powerful factor when determining the winners as one of them often is.

The open series is looking more and more to me (a total outsider) to be a semi-pro/pro-am event where a few badasses are winning enough to at least pay for their gas and hotel room on a regular basis, and the rest of the regional players (or those who travel but don't often place in the money) make it into the top 16 sometimes.

While I am really unhappy about MT being banned and the price of Jace the wallet raper the format is incredible, wide open, and so diverse it makes my head explode. In short, I love it!

Oh, sure. There are regulars who have a fair chance at money every time they go. But that's maybe 2 dozen players. And those perennials don't change decks often. Caleb always plays Painter, Weinburg always plays CB, Bertoncini always (almost always) plays Fish. If there were actual meta shifts, wouldn't those high caliber players be reacting to them instead of brute forcing a given deck?

[AriLax]

Oh, sure. There are regulars who have a fair chance at money every time they go. But that's maybe 2 dozen players. And those perennials don't change decks often. Caleb always plays Painter, Weinburg always plays CB, Bertoncini always (almost always) plays Fish. If there were actual meta shifts, wouldn't those high caliber players be reacting to them instead of brute forcing a given deck?

Weinburg will always play Goyf and Forces, but he won't always play Counter Top. He played Canadian Thresh as lately as GP Columbus, he played a Stoneforge Bant deck very recently. Drew Levin, AJ and Gerry all regularly change decks.

Caleb doesn't change because he feels Painter is more than powerful enough to bash all of the current decks regardless of meta shifts, similar to how I feel about Storm. Alex doesn't change as he feels Fish A) it is favored against the Blue and combo decks better players are more inclined to play and B) it punishes bad play very well, which combined with the fact he believes beatdown is piloted by less experienced players means he is more likely to just mise out there.

There is a meta. It does shift accordingly, and it's rapidly converging to a few specific categories: Tempo, 2 Card Combo, Full Hand Combo, and Red Aggro, with marginal room for Counterspell Control and Chalice of the Void to make a stand.

[Amon Amarth]

You forgot all the Rock/Junk decks that are doing well, unless you count them as tempo.

[Benjammn]

-snip-
Alex doesn't change as he feels Fish A) it is favored against the Blue and combo decks better players are more inclined to play and B) it punishes bad play very well, which combined with the fact he believes beatdown is piloted by less experienced players means he is more likely to just mise out there.

I 100% agree with this. I'm still learning a lot about Legacy, and one of the things I know is that I cannot pilot Merfolk with any decency. It is too bad, though, that Merfolk is the deck often lended or built by newer players and the deck punishes bad play SO MUCH. A lot of the merfolk players I saw at DC and Edison were just so bad with it and sure enough, many said "yeah, I play mostly Standard and decided to borrow a deck for today" or others saying "Merfolk is so easy to play" and such. It is such a wrong mentality....

Anyway, these meta swings are pretty severe for the 5ks, but I'll have to fully judge after Providence about the state of the format. I think it will need to take a GP in order to figure out which deck edges out the others. It sucks when you only have resources to build one deck though....

[warallthetimne]

Im from the providence area and as soon as they announced the GP here the legacy scene exploded here. I can play in a 14-20 player event four of the seven days of the week. I was a standard player but long ago was a vintage player and when the legacy bug hit i was hooked! The legacy meta is amazing, with a new deck taking down tournaments every week, not just a stagnant deck of the month format that standard is now.

[I am the brainwasher]

Since there were a rather high ammount of Tempo-decks in the form of Merfolk and Team America in the last SCG's Top 16, I was curious why CAN-Thresh and Dark Thresh are totally absent in the American meta, if they are. The thing is that I havent spotted one for a long time.
Is it the point that nobody plays the deck because it is considered inferior to the other tempodecks and this thought has spread that hard that people believe in it without proofing that wrong or are Thresh decks just not played because of no reason at all?
I am very interested in that because I always got the impression that nearly all Thresh variants are played in different countries rather often.
To be honest, I am not quite sure which deck of TA or CAN-T I would pilot if I would play those decks, but TA seems like a pretty good call atm.

[chinEsE girl]

If you want to play a tempo deck with red, play next level thresh. Seriously, it's far superior to canadien thresh. Nimble mongoose is just outclassed by creatures in just about every deck in the format, which is part of the reason I think canadien thresh and dark thresh have had little to no success recently. And not to toot my own horn, but I've recently had some pretty amazing success with NLT, top 8ing the last two tournaments at Jupiter Games (both 80+ person tournaments) as well as top 4ing the Edison SCG 5k, so I've top 8ed 3 out of the last 4 large tournaments I've played in. Maybe I've just been lucky, but don't be surprised if I top 8 several more of the next large tournaments I play with NLT.

[TheShaun]

I'll first state that I am NOT calling for a banning of FoW or anything like that. However, I am a bit concerned about the number of FoW's that have to exist in a top 8 in order to keep combo in check. It's starting to appear that most decks not packing FoW are not being very successful unless they manage to avoid playing a (skilled) combo opponent the whole day. 7 of the top 8, and 12 of top 16 at the most recent SCG had 4 FoW.

[Piceli89]

Canadian Threshold has just won a 214 men event in Italy. Just saying.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'll first state that I am NOT calling for a banning of FoW or anything like that. However, I am a bit concerned about the number of FoW's that have to exist in a top 8 in order to keep combo in check. It's starting to appear that most decks not packing FoW are not being very successful unless they manage to avoid playing a (skilled) combo opponent the whole day. 7 of the top 8, and 12 of top 16 at the most recent SCG had 4 FoW.
Some of the FoW count may be due to natural format cycling. The previous 5k (Edison) was won by Team America, and there were several Team America decks in this top 8. People who have the option will play the deck that did well recently, and many of the decks that prey on Tempo-style decks like Team America are also blue: Hierarch decks like NO Bant and Merfolk, which has Vial. I would expect that the meta will swing against these decks in the next 5k, with appearances by Junk and red-based aggro (Zoo, Goblins) but for now it's not wise to play combo. If the meta swings back to interaction-light aggro decks in the next 5k, the 5k after will be better for combo.

[GradStudentGuy]

Sometimes the T8 at SCG opens seems to be the flavor of the month. Some people see that this deck T8 last time I should also play that deck. Team America is not a common deck and to see so many in the T8 makes me wonder how many people played it that weekend. We saw a few major SCG players change their normal deck to what ever did well in the last event.

[Aggro_zombies]

That's pretty much par for the course in smaller formats, though. And thanks to the number and frequency of large, well-covered tournaments for this format (as well as an online testing ground of sorts in MODO), it's reasonable to expect this format to start behaving in the same way.

In other words, metagaming is an actual skill in Legacy now, and the format will favor people with access to a range of cards and a good read on how the dynamics work.

[Rune]

Current metagame is AWESOME.

With that said, I've written a 100% accurate analysis of the last few metagames:


Pre-MT banning: I'm still not sure why this meta wasn't just ANT vs Reanimator vs Goyf+FoW.dec vs Merfolk. For some reason, many people thought that casting Wild Nacatls and Kird Apes would be better than consistently winning the game on turn 2 backed up by Duress/FoW. Anyway, at least this brain fail lead to a diverse meta. Along the way, Saito revolutionizes ANT by cutting Ill-Gotten Gains!! With this confusing card out of the way, all the dorky people began to understand how ANT works: Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam - w00tw00t!?!?! So, FINALLY the undisputed best deck of the format began seeing an appropriate amount of play. TLDR: the meta should have been 4 different decks battling it out, but people are stupid.

Post-MT banning: For us combo players, the prospect of having to play actual Magic was scary as fuck, so we naturally whined as much as possible about Mystical Tutor getting banned. Meanwhile, the amount of Zoo, ironically, decreased rapidly with combo gone. Not sure why, but I think it was because the Zoo players were no longer able to complain about getting turn 1/2'd by combo players, and so half their fun of playing Kird Apes went away. Once the SotF+VV interaction was discovered, things obviously started to suck hard. In this period of time, SotF was basically the bastard child of Timmy and Johnny - a product of their dry and intense anal sex. TLDR: DONT HAVE 4 SOTF IN UR LIST? NO? LOL U LOSE

[samurai_socks]

Current Metagame is shifting from week to week and that is helping to form a healthy diverse format.

I am a fan.

-Cheers-

[Admiral_Arzar]

I'll first state that I am NOT calling for a banning of FoW or anything like that. However, I am a bit concerned about the number of FoW's that have to exist in a top 8 in order to keep combo in check. It's starting to appear that most decks not packing FoW are not being very successful unless they manage to avoid playing a (skilled) combo opponent the whole day. 7 of the top 8, and 12 of top 16 at the most recent SCG had 4 FoW.

It sounds to me like you're calling for BANZ COMBO ZOMG, rather than banning FoW.

In a wide open meta, the strongest strategies either exploit powerful synergies/cards (Generally Combo) or have universal disruption and answers to deal with just about any issue (see Team America, Tempo Thresh, Junk/The Rock, NLT, maybe Merfolk). In this kind of meta, pure aggro decks are not particularly good as they cannot pack enough hate to deal with the wide variety of combo strategies while still expecting the beat the tempo and rock decks.

Personally, I am perfectly ok with that. The meta is far more interesting than the CB/Vial/Zoo circle jerk that it was a few months ago, and I'd like it to stay that way. I've never believed that playing aggro decks with no means to interact with combo decks was a good idea, it just takes this kind of meta to make people realize it. Despite this, Zoo has still been putting up strong numbers in the recent 5ks, perhaps because it feeds on Merfolk and similar strategies.

This is a true rock/paper/scissors meta. Combo players have long accepted that we often lose to tempo decks. I find it amusing that aggro players generally have difficulty accepting that they often lose to combo decks.

[GGoober]

@The Shaun: No FoW in the format means that many more cards will have to be banned. Even if FoW is overly played, it's because of the existence of other bombs that it's being played (aside from being a very powerful card).

It's different from SotF and MTutor here both banned cards were key enablers allowing multiple decks playing with these cards to have a huge edge over an opponent. FoW does have an edge when paired with Countertop or in combo decks that can support FoW more than any other deck, but I believe that edge is still fairly small compared to the edge that SotF and Mtutor gave to other decks.

Personally I would have preferred neither of SotF and MTutor banned. I mean before the SCG circuits even started, these two cards were still somewhat fine, but the circuits had a big influence on people following trends and playing the available strong decks, even though hate/answers still existed at that time.

MTutor was abused mostly in combo decks, giving them a more consistent game 1, and a stronger postgame as well in terms of SB slot allocation and ease of grabbing answers to combo hate.

[Misplayer]

I was just working on my personal SB strategy and put together the following (totally subjective) list of top tier decks based on SCG 5ks:

Storm
Team America
NLThresh/Tempo
Junk
Big Zoo
Goblins
Merfolk

Taxes strategies probably deserve some mention plus Alix's result with Spiral Tide. But for the most part the meta seems to consist of [Accel (Mox, Vial or Hierarch) or Cantrip] + Waste.

Just did some rough analysis on the past 3 SCG event Top 8s (24 total decks):
13 Wasteland -centric strategies (I acknowledge that this is a broad brush)
5 Combo (includes Spiral Tide)
6 "Fringe" decks (2x Affinity, Dredge, Little Zoo, Enchantress, NO Zenith, CounterTop)

It's no wonder that the more resilient ANT decks are putting up results over something like TES.

[Gui]

Not really on topic, but will the DTBF be updated soon?

[mishima_kazuya]

Combo versus aggro-control metagame.

Control decks and aggro decks seem pretty dead atm.

[Bardo]

Not really on topic, but will the DTBF be updated soon?

Yeah, we need to get on that.

[AngryTroll]

This is initial data, I may be a little bit off. This is all from the SCG: Los Angeles Open (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-03-27&end_date=2011-03-27&event_ID=20).

The SCG: Battle: Los Angeles Legacy Open Top 8 contained:
8 Distinct Decks
0 Tarmogoyf
7 Daze
12 Brainstorm
12 Force of Will (The Brainstorms and Forces were spread across 4 decks, though, Brainstorms but not Forces in Ad Nauseum, Forces but no Brainstorms in Merfolk).
4 Decks with no dual lands (Elves, Burn, Merfolk, Dredge, and honorable mention to Belcher for only a single Taiga)


The SCG: Battle: Los Angeles Legacy Open Top 16 contained (in total, not in addition to the Top 8):
11 Distinct Decks (4 Dredge, 2 Elves, 2 Merfolk total)
12 Brainstorms
14 Daze
20 Force of Will
4 Tarmogoyf
10 decks with no dual lands (and Belcher with only 1 Taiga)


This format is awesome. It's wide open, rewards great players, and is tons of fun.

[Beware]

All I'm going to say about the format right now is that I REALLY want to be playing 4 Wastelands and 4 Stifles.

[dahcmai]

Decks coming back that abuse the graveyard also is an interesting trend. Guess we're laxing up on the hate too much.

[menace13]

30 out of 64 decks of the top 8 in the past 8 Star City Games 5ks are all seperate archetypes.

Is 50 even a reasonable number on the amount of viable decks in the format?

[Mark Sun]

Decks coming back that abuse the graveyard also is an interesting trend. Guess we're laxing up on the hate too much.

Agreed. Time to dust off the Crypts again, whoops @ trying to build a deck two weeks before Atlanta. Sigh, this is depressing.

[lorddotm]

Agreed. Time to dust off the Crypts again, whoops @ trying to build a deck two weeks before Atlanta. Sigh, this is depressing.

There was so much Dredge is was unbelievable...

I noticed that the most played decks were Dredge, Elves, Team America, Combo.

Metagame against those. I don't envy you.

[PanderAlexander]

I love the wide-open meta post survival, but the combo heavy results at SCG Los Angeles maybe a west coast thing, look at the last prize tournament at the local Knightware store it's almost all combo, and Cephalid Breakfast had just missed top 8 on that one too:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5692

[lorddotm]

I love the wide-open meta post survival, but the combo heavy results at SCG Los Angeles maybe a west coast thing, look at the last prize tournament at the local Knightware store it's almost all combo, and Cephalid Breakfast had just missed top 8 on that one too:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5692

Us Los Angelesers love our combo decks.

BTW, congratz on winning, sorry I couldn't stick around, I had a massive head ache and had to grab dinner.

[sclabman]

Yeah, L.A.! Way to represent! All the shout-outs to KW was great too! So sad I couldn't make it. :(

[Tacosnape]

There's a metagame?

Metagames imply having some clue what decks you'll face. I'm fairly sure there has never once been any moment in time in any format where this many different decks were viable contenders to win a championship.

Seriously. Sleeve up anything you want (Within Reason) and go play.

[Admiral_Arzar]

There's a metagame?

Metagames imply having some clue what decks you'll face. I'm fairly sure there has never once been any moment in time in any format where this many different decks were viable contenders to win a championship.

Seriously. Sleeve up anything you want (Within Reason) and go play.

This is why this is the best "meta" ever. You can play pretty much anything that doesn't suck horribly and have a shot at winning. It's infinitely better than "Here's four or five decks that are good. Pick one." The format is finally as wide-open as Legacy is SUPPOSED to be, and I love it.

[Nidd]

The only impression I have is that any deck that has some sort of gameplan is viable given the pilot is skilled.

Oh, Counterbalance seems to have gotten a lot weaker. Decks have too many angles from which they can attack you and resolving Counterbalance + Top, as strong as it is, simply isn't as gamebreaking as it was before.

[Digital Devil]

I loathe both Green Sun's Zenith/Natural Order, but I can't blame anything but my emotional responses: Legacy has never been so diverse and balanced. Best format ever.

[SMR0079]

Combotastic!

No seriously, the format really feels like it's matured. When you had pros and notable commentators look at Legacy and do a double take on the all the tribal aggro and zoo decks this is the metagame they thought should exist. Not saying that aggro shoudn't have it's role in the metagame, but the card pool and power level of the format really begs for a pleathera of busted strategys like what we are seeing today - as well as the answers to keep them in check.

My reccomendation is to play something that has disruption and preasure like Merfolk or Team America - or one of the many combo strategies that balance power, disruption, and consistency, something like Painted Stone, or High Tide as compared to ANT.

The only down side is that the metagame is sooo diverse it makes successfully playing true control or packing dedicated answers very difficult. That's about the best problem one can have in a metagame.

[Beatusnox]

I honestly like where Legacy is and is headed. To be honest, Countertop is not the Be-all end-all that it used to be. But it is still a strong combo to have on the field. While it is less effective now, it can still cause your opponent to stop for a minute and think about having to play around it. The ability to make them second guess themselves can be invaluable.

[ivanpei]

Counterbalance is gonna make a comeback now. Look at all that combo in the T8. If I was a counterbalance player at the SCG I would have ripped them all a new one.

[lorddotm]

Counterbalance is gonna make a comeback now. Look at all that combo in the T8. If I was a counterbalance player at the SCG I would have ripped them all a new one.

That is wrong. Everyone was playing Dredge and Merfolk. Or it sure seemed that way, I played 2 Dredge and 3 Merfolk.

[ivanpei]

I was referring to the URg counterbalance builds that are good against folk and dredge. Grim is really good against both and also cephalid breakfast. Grim-ing himself is pretty good out to Bridges. Though most other counterbalance builds would probably not be as good against that field.

[lorddotm]

I was referring to the URg counterbalance builds that are good against folk and dredge. Grim is really good against both and also cephalid breakfast. Grim-ing himself is pretty good out to Bridges. Though most other counterbalance builds would probably not be as good against that field.

Right, I played against that Round 1. It was the Indy list. I beat it with TES.

[ivanpei]

Good on you then. That won't happen all the time though. 1 Match is not a good enough sample. I'm just saying that Counterbalance seems to be really good in this field. I'm not bashing on your performance or anything dude.

[(nameless one)]

The only down side is that the metagame is sooo diverse it makes successfully playing true control or packing dedicated answers very difficult. That's about the best problem one can have in a metagame.

Not true. I think Quinn or Landstill has a shot.

Quinn has great matchup across the aggro field and the same with combo postboard. It does have terrible matchup against other control decks but as you mentioned right now, it's not the greatest strategy.

And Landstill looks like it can be played again without any fears of having a really long game against the control Mirror.

I'd also consider Enchantress as somewhat control.

CounterTop Thopters also has tools against both aggro and combo.

The way I see it, it's still anyone's format.

[SpikeyMikey]

Got to agree with Taco; in the two SCG's I've gone to, I've played 15 different decks in 17 rounds. So play what you want and hope for lucky pairings, because in a field this random, deck selection is impossible. And this is why you're not seeing Zoo or other highly fair decks. Right now, their superior consistency doesn't matter much because they can't effectively hate on the broken strategies. It's impossible to guess what you'll need in board unless you can run with very generalized board hate, shoring up a class of matchups rather than focusing on bringing a matchup up to snuff.

[pippo84]

There is no metagame and this is really nice: so many different decks!

In the last tournament I played (this Sunday) I faced 6 different decks in the swiss:

Enchantress
Spiral Tide
ANT
Zenit-Bant (no countertop)
GW Maverick
Landstill

And the top 8 was made of only different decks:

1 Supreme Blue
2 Zenit-Bant (my opponent of round 4)
3 Jace Control (UBG)
4 Merfolk
5 Ooze Combo (me)
6 Spring Tide
7 Painter
8 GW Maverick (my oppo of round 5)

:tongue:

[GGoober]

I hate this current meta, gimme back my Survivals! Meta was awesome back then:

1) GW Survival with Iona
2) GW Survival without Iona
3) GW Survival with mother of runes
4) GW Survival without mother of runes
5) UG Survival with Brainstorm/Intuiion
6) UG Survival without Brainstorm/Intuiion
7) UG Survival with Stifles
8) UG Survival without Stifles
9) GB Survival with Ooze
10) GB Survival without Ooze
11) Survival with LEDs
12) Survival without LEDs
13) Survival with vengevines
14) Survival without vengevines
15) Welder Survival

Look at all that diversity! The current format blows.

[Gui]

I'm currently waiting to see if there will be any flame wars about the wrong banishing of Survival of the Fittest now xD

[Koby]

I hate this current meta, gimme back my Survivals! Meta was awesome back then:

1) GW Survival with Iona
2) GW Survival without Iona
3) GW Survival with mother of runes
4) GW Survival without mother of runes
5) UG Survival with Brainstorm/Intuiion
6) UG Survival without Brainstorm/Intuiion
7) UG Survival with Stifles
8) UG Survival without Stifles
9) GB Survival with Ooze
10) GB Survival without Ooze
11) Survival with LEDs
12) Survival without LEDs
13) Survival with vengevines
14) Survival without vengevines
15) Welder Survival

Look at all that diversity! The current format blows.

You completely forgot about Survival Combo Elves, Survival Aggro Elves, Survival Infinite Elves, Full English Breakfast, and Survival Emrakul/Retainers.

[Gui]

Fun fact: 4 Tarmogoyfs out of 16 decks o0

[death]

Fun fact: 4 Tarmogoyfs out of 16 decks o0

Yeah lol, of all decks he was in aggro loam. LA meta is in fact weird!

Regarding the B&R list, I guess unbanning Earthcraft won't do any harm. The deck is just as terrible as Aluren, but more terrible than Breakfast.

Survival may be unbanned within 1 1/2 years, who knows.



Peace

[(nameless one)]

Yeah lol, of all decks he was in aggro loam. LA meta is in fact weird!

Regarding the B&R list, I guess unbanning Earthcraft won't do any harm. The deck is just as terrible as Aluren, but more terrible than Breakfast.

Survival may be unbanned within 1 1/2 years, who knows.



Peace

It could give Enchantress a faster way to win, though I don't think its needed on that deck. Earthcraft does look broken in an Combo Elves build, though I cannot back this up with hard facts as Combo Elves doesn't really excel in MTGO Classic (where Earthcraft is legal)

That said, I think I am going to stock up on them.

[PanderAlexander]

Get your Null Rods now as the price will go up. I think the last 5 SCG Legacy 5Ks had three artifact decks win; MUD(finals I think), Affinity(win), and my Painter win last weekend. Ironic how Wizards released an artifact block and artifact decks are amazing now. When Mox Opal was printed a lot of people didn't give it respect, but now it is showing how powerful it's living up to the "Mox" name.

[death]

That said, I think I am going to stock up on them.

Not a good idea, it's a lousy combo.

[Koby]

I cannot back this up with hard facts as Combo Elves doesn't really excel in MTGO Classic (where Earthcraft is legal)


Classic also has Skullclamp legal, which makes for a completely different combo. That being said, more than 30 Earthcraft Elves list finished in the money in 2009.

[(nameless one)]

Classic also has Skullclamp legal, which makes for a completely different combo. That being said, more than 30 Earthcraft Elves list finished in the money in 2009.

I am guessing these lists included both Skullclamp and Earthcraft?

[dahcmai]

You can play Earthcraft and Skullclamp in MTGO Classic? Wow, I won a vintage tournament with a clamp elves deck once. It was fully capable of drawing it's deck and going off into a lethal Tendrils turn 3. Man, I miss that deck, it won me a ton of money. I was proving that cheap cards can win tournaments to people to shut a bunch of people up about playing Moxes and only being able to do well if they had money. The most expensive card in it was Skullclamp.

[Koby]

You can play Earthcraft and Skullclamp in MTGO Classic with 4 Brainstorm and 4 Lion's Eye Diamond and 4 Burning Wish.

Fixed. :)