[SCD] Path to Exile

[Finn]

There seems to be a wall standing between players and an actual understanding of the effects of this card. The classic comparison is between it and Swords to Plowshares. In my experience STP is the superior card even in decks that appear to have a direct problem with the life gain. After coming upon a wall of NO last year in the Zoo thread with the proponents of Path saying things like "just run three of them to decrease the probability that you will have to use it early" (or some paraphrase of that) and similar gems of logic, I gave up. Yes, you can envision a scenario in which Path is the better card. That is not a particularly helpful anecdote however because you can do the same with STP.

Now, I am learning that a surprising number of players have been using Path to Exile in Death and Taxes. This is a deck with either Wastelands or Ports or both as well as Aether Vial. It is essentially kicking its own ass every time it gives an opponent a land for free. In this case, the other choice is Oust, which is a complicated card to compare Path to, I know. But I am baffled as to why players are using a card that is so clearly craptastic in a disruption deck.

Is it new players who don't understand the mechanics of resource development versus life gain in this game?

Standard converts who feel comfortable with Path?

Is there something else?

Am I completely wrong here and I have just been deluding myself for years?



I don't understand. Can ya help a brutha out?

[Jason]

I have no problem running Path in Zoo. The land gained is not always relevant. Zoo can even race Progenitus sometimes. (Unfortunately, it cannot race a Rhox War Monk, so if they use the PtE to fix their mana and cast the rhino, you're in trouble). However, Zoo tries to deal as much damage as fast as possible. Swords definitely hurts that plan, especially since so many games are decided by one turn where the opponent almost stabilizes.

However, running Path in a deck featuring Wasteland and Port is just wrong. You are trying to tempo out the opponent. The life gain of Swords is unnecessary as long as you keep the opponent from casting their spells. I personally haven't seen a Death and Taxes player playing Path over Swords, but if I did, I would try and find out why.

Amendment to the above: If you are running Wasteland, Port and Leonin Arbiter, I may concede Path is acceptable.

[Arsenal]

But in a deck like D&T, where Mangara/Karakas can just straight up lock you out of the game, I wouldn't think the opponent being at 27 life versus 20 life would make as big of difference as opponent having access to 3 mana versus 4 mana.

[Skeggi]

Is it new players who don't understand the mechanics of resource development versus life gain in this game?
In general, yes.


Standard converts who feel comfortable with Path?
Not me.

Is there something else?
Path can get you a land. On the other hand, Swords can get you life. So naw, there's not really something else.


Am I completely wrong here and I have just been deluding myself for years?
You're actually quite right. Path to Exile is even terribad in numerous situations against Goblins/Merfolk when that player is stuck on only 1 colored mana source. You just don't want to use it.

[bakofried]

Getting Path'd is a pretty comfortable feeling, especially for a deck like Goblins, which is so mana-intensive. I pulled a game out of my ass because he gave me an early SGC.

[Tao]

In aggressive Zoo lists it makes perfect sense to play PtE over StoP. You have burn for smaller dudes and Swording a big guy like Goyf or KotR will be worse for you than giving them a land. Also, if your plan is to burn out the opponent, StoP is more card disadvantage than PtE.

I also use PtE over Oust as a SB card in decks like GW Survival and GW Maverick. Pathes are far worse vs. Goblins because they can great use of the mountain but they are better against all other decks they come in against. Reasons:

- Being an Instant is a nice upgrade in general, for example against Equipment (Jitte/Stoneforge/Cranial Plating) or Mother of Runes
- exiling it forever is important in attrition wars (KotR/ Tombstalker)
- against most aggressive decks I don't plan on using Wasteland anyway and Zoo/Affinity/Merfolk/Dredge usually can do exactly nothing with a Rampant Growth effect

So yes you have been deluding yourself.

[Amon Amarth]

Goblins is about the only deck that you don't want to use PTE. Pathing a first turn Lackey is pretty bad, although that is the only aggro deck where STP is superior. PTE and STP are pretty much the same card if you are running it in a deck like Landstill but not so much for Aggro Control decks that also play Daze and/or Wasteland. I'd never really want to play Path if I play those cards. Ditto for Port.

[keys]

Path is better against a Dreadnought or a huge Knight of the Reliquary or Terravore.

[bakofried]

In (non-Big) Zoo I'd agree that it seems worse. The late-game for Zoo blows, so giving the opponent upwards of 6 life is going to hurt. But in any other deck? Swords is better.

[Uncoordinated]

The only place I see running Path is viable is in the fast version of Zoo - Cats, or whatever you want to call it. Even big Zoo lists are running StP. Or perhaps if you are adamant about sticking with white-based disruption decks, and you have an overflow of tribal decks and really need additional cheap, instant removal. Really there is nothing that comes close to Swords, and even if Path is in distant second, the dropoff after Path is very large.

Essentially, if you aren't playing Cats, and four pieces of efficient spot removal aren't enough, I would recommend splashing a colour that offers more removal, or playing a different deck altogether.

[4eak]

Generally, I do think PtE is better than StP in Zoo, especially for faster/smaller variants of Zoo which hope to use burn as part of their win condition. You need to look pretty closely to see why Zoo can get away with PtE and other decks can't.

Usually PtE is used as late as possible. This makes sense, as there are diminishing returns to how its drawback benefits your opponent. An extra land in the mid or late game isn't nearly as meaningful as it is in the early game. Unlike a lot of decks, Zoo has other removal options in its burn cards. Burn is very often effective at removing the sorts of creatures which are in play during the first 3 turns, making it unnecessary to use PtE when it would hurt you the most (by benefiting your opponent the most).

At the stage of the game where PtE should be played, many variants of Zoo should be on the cusp of winning. Here, your unused burn cards become part of comboing your opponent out, and PtE fills in for the removal role. In these cases, StP is card disadvantage (just as for your opponent, an active Pulse of the Fields is card advantage/re-usable counterspell against burn and Zoo decks) and tempo disadvantage (as it may put you a turn behind while swinging with your dudes -- buying your opponent time to stabilize against you), and PtE's drawback is often mitigated by just winning the game.



peace,
4eak

[AngryTroll]

Whatever your personal feelings may be about Dreadstill, it's a perfect example for this discussion. Dreadstill (with the white splash) runs 4 Stifle, 1 Trickbind, 4 Wastelands, and 3 or 4 Swords to Plowshares. At one point, I wanted additional sideboard removal spells that did not require an additional splash. I went with Condemn as my three sideboard removal spells over Path to Exile. Because Condemn was supplementing Swords instead of replacing it, I was not concerned about needing to hit utility creatures like Goblin Welder or Peacekeeper; Condemn's purpose was to nail Merfolk Lords, Tombstalkers, Tarmogoyfs, Terravores, Countryside Crushers, and similarly large creatures. In those cases, only hitting attacking creatures was mostly negligible, but the land drop was very relevant for my opponents.

[TsumiBand]

I don't think it's super-hard to realize why a deck so dependent on its redundancy as Zoo would prefer a card like Path over Swords. When Goyf or Knight comes down hard and early, it's clearly clearly better to Path it if you're playing GuysAndBurn.dec. Giving the opponent back 2 Lightning Bolts of damage is a huge fucking mistake. And similarly that same deck would really like to avoid throwing those same Lightning Bolts at one guy - even though you're probably siding out burn for PtE, I'm pretty sure most Zoo players will take a 1-1 over a 2- or 3- to 1 just to remove a 6+ toughness dude any day.

If your deck's primary way of winning is by reducing the opponent's life total to 0 or less as quickly as it can, I think Path to Exile is going to be better. If you're looking at a situation where you are sealing the deal because you're locking the opponent out of the game to the point where their actual life total is irrelevant because they're gonna lose anyway, then Swords to Plowshares is probably superior.

[FieryBalrog]

Path has been incredibly relevant every time I've played Zoo (the faster versions), and I've basically never wished it was a Swords. There are too many games where you just pull out the win with balls-to-the-wall burning and swinging because you're going to lose next turn. You have burn for all the early game shit anyway, and Path's for that 8/8 KotR or that SoFI-equipped Serra Avenger that you want to eradicate in the mid-game.

You still have to use it intelligently in the early turns. You should never have to path a T1 lackey, I don't know what kind of hand you kept with Zoo that would need path to deal with that.

In certain other decks, Path can be useful as a STP #'s 5-6. That's why it occasionally showed up in Landstill and the like.

[lordofthepit]

I liked Path over Swords in Zoo (Cat Sligh).

Then I switched to Big Zoo with Wastelands, and I swapped my Paths for Swords. I have since dropped the Wastelands but have kept the Swords.

As many people have already described, if you win a substantial amount of your games with Bolt/Bolt/Price/Fireblast, Swords is effectively a 3-for-1. If you win by bashing with fatties, Swords is the better card.

[TsumiBand]

You still have to use it intelligently in the early turns. You should never have to path a T1 lackey, I don't know what kind of hand you kept with Zoo that would need path to deal with that.

Also this. WTF bad zoo player, y r u give time walk to golbins deck.

I know that Zoo has a rep of being a deck that sort of plays itself, but I think that mentality leads to questions like this. Whereas Swords doesn't test your skill quite as much - the life gain is pretty fixed barring the mentioned Goyf/KotRs/Terravore/1996 World Champion/etc. Anyone who Paths that first turn dork deserves the horrible beats that will ensue.

[SpikeyMikey]

Path makes an excellent supplement to Swords, even for DnT or Junk. It's what I like to call the "Pernicious Deed argument". A long time ago, in a format far far away (T1) when Deed first came out, the general consensus was that it was terrible in Keeper. The argument went that you'd blow up your own permanents (mostly Moxen) and therefore Powder Keg was better. I argued that if I'm using Deed it's because the shit has hit the fan and Moxen don't do you any good if you're dead. Eventually people made the switch realizing that answering the threat right now is often more important than a little card disadvantage. There is a reason Balance is such a powerful card. My Bant deck runs 4 Plows and a Path because when you need removal, you need it right effing now. I'd almost always rather have the Plow but I can only run 4 and if it makes the difference between dying in the next turn or two or giving me several turns to swing the game, I'll run it and be grateful. So what if it gives them a resource they can use down the road? If they're mana-screwed, I probably don't need to use it.

[Finn]

Path is not the only secondary removal spell available by a long shot. It is a terrible supplement.

[SpikeyMikey]

While I generally respect your opinions , none of the other options mentioned in this thread are even remotely playable.

[AngryTroll]

While I generally respect your opinions , none of the other options mentioned in this thread are even remotely playable.

Do you think Condemn is not even remotely playable as a sideboard option in a deck packing Wasteland, Stifle, and 4 Swords to Plowshares? I'm actually curious.

[SpikeyMikey]

The short answer is that I don't think Condemn Is remotely playable in anything Legacy. There are too many creatures it will never hit and too many situations it just doesn't cover. Creatures like Kuldotha Forgemaster or KotR are scary without ever swinging. It can't hit a creature in response to an equip. It will never remove that one creature hanging back to block your lethal Tarmogoyf. In short, it's not flexible and it's not powerful.

[Tinefol]

I'd agree. As much as I dislike PtE, Condemn isn't ever going to hit Dark Confidant, Mother of Runes, Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Welder and the list goes on indefinitely.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah, what else could possibly be considered in the ballpark of Swords to Plowshares, besides Path to Exile? Condemn is so conditional, that whole 'attacking or blocking' thing is the reason most White removal is unplayable in the Big People Formats. Oblivion Ring, but at Sorcery speed and sooo much more expensive... maybe Wing Shards?? Temporal Isolation?? Afterlife??

While I don't necessarily think the two should be run in tandem - because then you're just giving your opponent land and life all higgledy-piggledy - I think the thing you get to ask yourself as a deckbuilder is "Okay, given the metagame and the main way my deck wins, which hit to my own tempo do I care least about, giving away life or basic lands? cuz I'll give my opponent that one in exchange for their mans."

FWIW, Path to Exile with Aven Mindcensor in play is sort of funny. Sort of. If they ever print like 2 more functional reprints of that guy, lookthefuckout

[Uncoordinated]

Journey to Nowhere is the closest after Path, I think. But it's got so many differences ( good and bad ) that it can't really be considered in the same ballpark. I would probably sideboard this before Path just because of the amount of SnT that's been popping up around my area.

[Final Fortune]

Sunlance? Granted it doesn't help vs Knight of the Reliquary, Phyrexian Dreadnought or Tombstalker, but it wins Goyf wars, kills utility creatures and is more or less what you want vs. Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk and Elves etc.

Other than MD STP # 5 or 6, I don't see the point of PTE outside of Zoo. If you're SBing in removal to shore up the aggro or Merfolk match up then Sunlance probably gets there.

[samurai_socks]

Sunlance? Granted it doesn't help vs Knight of the Reliquary, Phyrexian Dreadnought or Tombstalker, but it wins Goyf wars, kills utility creatures and is more or less what you want vs. Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk and Elves etc.

Other than MD STP # 5 or 6, I don't see the point of PTE outside of Zoo. If you're SBing in removal to shore up the aggro or Merfolk match up then Sunlance probably gets there.

Sunlance is a sorcery though and not killing any of the creatures you mentioned are huge negatives.

-Cheers-

[FieryBalrog]

IMO, the best supplement to Swords in strategies that don't want Path is Oust.

[SpikeyMikey]

Sorcery speed makes baby jeebus cry. But you go ahead and play Oust against me all you want. And I'll just abuse the hell out of Aether Vial and Mangara you into the stone age. Or make EoT LoA, untap and make 2 more lords and beat you for 18. Oust is slightly worse than Unsummon. At least Unsummon is an instant.

[menace13]

Going to be Pretty hard to top all the great cards named in this thread already, but here goes. Crib Swap is amazing at giving 1/1 tokens at instant speed and it combos with Haakon, Stromgald Scourge all the while making Goyf Goyfier.

[Mr. Safety]

I've been thinking about this, and I think it would be helpful to list out what the white options are and possibly reasoning for good vs. bad.

Swords to Plowshares - obviously top dog, exile for W, the lifegain is often negligable compared to dealing with a massive threat
Path to Exile - not exactly comparable, but still really good. You have to be the guy trying to win NOW, not the guy with the long game in mind
Journey to Nowhere - ugh, sorcery speed, but decent nonetheless. I'd say only playable in casual, not competitive, legacy
Oblivion Ring - I like this one...hardly anyone plays maindeck enchantment hate (Pridemages in zoo, sometimes junk) and it covers all bases, including Emrakul
Smite - cheap way to take advantage of blocking with an obsolete creature/expendable creature
Oust - ONLY good in tempo decks that are also denying mana so the removed dude is obsolete. Not permanent, gives life, sorcery. Yuck
Condemn - decent removal, but requires attacking. Doesn't do anything against Grims, Bobs, or other utility creatures that cause havoc
Reciprocate - surprised nobody has mentioned this yet...you can usually survive ONE hit from a big dude
Sunlance - all I can say is it's a lousy Chain Lightning
Wing Shards - not bad, but the 1WW is rough. Works on Progenitus, but Emrakul will have blown up 6 things anyways.
Dispense Justice - an easier to cast Wing Shards. Not sure metalcraft is even worth discussing outside of Affinity or Dutch Stax
Crib Swap - solid, even though its 3 mana, it's at least an exile effect at instant speed. The 1/1 does provide a chump blocker though...

I'm sure I've missed a few, and added thoughts on what makes them good/bad would be great!

[Malakai]

You guys are morons. Everyone keeps just going back and forth saying this and that, providing cases where one is better than the other. You have to ask the essential question. You always have to ask the essential question.

What do you want the card to do?

Are you a control deck looking for early, cheap removal to side in against aggressive decks, such as Merfolk, Goblins, and Zoo?

Condemn seems pretty good here.
Path to Exile, in this instance, is essentially a more flexible Condemn that has a draw back.

Are you a NO-Bant list looking for an edge in the mirror, because you find that you're able to stop their Natural Orders but keep dying to random beats and variance?

Path to Exile has an edge here, because it can knock out an exalted creature.
Oust might not be great, because you care less about their tempo than you do the actual card.
Condemn kills everything you care about, but doesn't stop them from filtering and grabbing Horizon Canopies with their Knights.
Sower of Temptation asks them if they have a removal spell or Progenitus, and if the answer is "no" it wins the game.

Or maybe you're the aggro deck; in this case a middle-of-the-road Zoo list, and you're tired of the ground getting bogged up.

Why can't you kill their guys with burn, or burn+attack, or Lavamancer + attack? Why would you want to dilute your plan to play the game on their terms?

-------

Never rule out a card just because it seems bad compared to other options in a vaccuum. Always first identify what needs to be done, then see if there is a card that does it. Keep an eye on whether you intend to change your plan in sideboarded games, or just attempt to pick up percentage points with more well-positioned role-players. I.e., ask if you are switching the card in the slot, or changing what the slot does.