Knights - (K)Night and Day

[Seraph2k]

Hi!

After playing a long time with The Rock, The Gate, Ichorid and Zoo I am tired of netdecking and trying to find a new amazing deck. I am sure that this will not end into a tier one deck, but I hope it could develope into a solid deck, which can win against some deck. First builts were WG with KotR, but WB seems to have better combo answers with its discard. So thats the reason that I named the deck night (black) and day(white).

Here is my current decklist:

4 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
8 Plains
4 Swamp
23 Lands

4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawas Jitte

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

4 Student of Warfare
2 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mercenary Knight
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Haakon
3 Hero of Bladehold

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Nameless inversion

SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 11 open slots (first maindeck, then SB;)

This is my basic decklist which include the following choices:

Critters
4 Student of Warfare: Best turn 1 critter the deck/tribe offers
2 Knight of the White Orchid: should be 4of - amazing card for manafixing
4 Knight Exemplar: pumps and protects his friends
4 Mercenary Knight: strong early drop and combos with haakon
4 Mirran Crusader: with equipment or pumped a real clock
2 Haakon: comes via vial or discard via mercenary
3 Hero of Bladehold: unanswered he comes with cc4 for 7dmg

Support:
Vial lets uns drop knights in instantspeed or surprise an opponent with an exemplar.
Jitte is always strong. Together with Mirran the game will end soon. Remember Mirran gets 4 counters with one attack!
Elspeth pumps our knights and gives evasion.

Removal:
Swords: better than PtE
Nameless Inversion: At the moment these are only for testing. Only good with haakon or to trade a critter vs a goyf. If they are not good enough I will replace them with PtE or Discard.

What made it currently not into my list (open for discussion):

Knight of the White Orchid as a 4of: In the best cases the fetches for a additional land to accelerate the deck or be simply fixes manaproblems.

Discard: Against combodecks (ANT, 2LB, etc) we need disruption. So the MD or SB have to contain Thoughtseize, Duress, IoK.

Baneslayer Angel: I know to slow, to fat and not strong enough.... but I like him. If I have to go up with the KotWO to 4 I will give BA a chance.... maybe ;)

Kinsbaile Cevalier: broken but to expensive

Stillmoon Cavalier: nice prot from b and w but not strong enough

A problem of the deck is the lack of Dark Confidant and other ways to generate CA. I hope the deck can create CA with its tribe-synergies... we have to see. I am going to test in at a local tournament at march 20. So I have 10 days to optimize the deck.

[InResponseForceOfWill]

I don't really like Aether Vial in there. This is because the majority of your creatures are 3cc drops. It's still good and all, but I'd rather run a bunch of 2 drops (dark confidant as you mentioned) with vial than waiting 3 upkeeps to get it to 3 counters. Just a thought. I might be wrong. I'd need to test it. Also, you'll probably want to run 3x Stoneforge Mystics (another great 2cc drop for Vial) and grabs you a Jitte, or either of the Darksteel Swords if you so chose to run them.

[Seraph2k]

I like the Vials vs CB/Top. And its great with haakon. For him I have 8 outlets: 4 vials and 4 mercenerys.
Stoneforges are nice, but at this time a littlebit overhyped;) They are very good, but he is no knight and the equipment in this deck is not so important due to the raw strengh of the critters.

[trivial_matters]

I dislike Mercenary Knight. You can't rely on having Haakon, whom you're playing twice (and you have no way to manipulate your library), to cancel his drawback.
Have you considered Knight of Meadowgrain? And what about Wasteland? Your curve is high and some cards quite colour-demanding, so I'm not sure if it'd work.

[Arsenal]

Not only does it fit the "theme", but it's a fantastic card in general; Elspeth, Knight Errant. You run 23 lands, so hitting 4 mana is very realistic, it makes your guys Fly, or makes them nearly-unkillable given enough time. If your deck is turning guys sideways to win, Elspeth seems to be a pretty good card for consideration... and she's a win-con all by herself if your board just got blown up.

[Jabari]

If you aren't gonna run Bob I would suggest Preeminent Captain with Enlistment Officer that way the list can bounce back better from a board sweep and runs a little more like Goblins and a little less like a really slow tempo deck. If I were you I would cut the Mercenary Knights, 1 Elspeth, 1 Mirran Crusader/Hero of Bladehold, and a couple land.

[Seraph2k]

Knight of Meadowgrain is indeed a very good choice. It stalls the ground against small critters and creates life.

Elspeth is indeed a perfect card for this deck, but I think two are enough. Sometimes she enters the game turn three with the help of KotWO.

The Idea to replace slots of a maybe Confi with a soldier theme is nice, but I think it does not fit into the Knight concept;)

Concering the wastelands: You are right it is a solid card. BUT: The deck needs in a lot of cases WW or BB. So adding wastelands would lead to a more fragile manabase and we need those 3 mana at turn three!

[lebarion]

I'd try Smallpox, probably in the place of Nameless inversion or the Mercenary.
First turn Vial, second turn Smallpox is a very nice tempo play - specially if you opponent did Tropical, Noble Hierarch. It is usefull for discarding Haakon, too.

[Seraph2k]

Maybe an interesting idea. Discardoutlet for Haakon. The problem I see: I have to hit early BB for it and what if i have no vial? Then I have one land lost, which is very important for this deck.
I have to wait with testing, till my Merc. Knights arrive today or maybe on monday.

[Atwa]

I've been thinking about a knight deck before, however I do think green would be a way better splash color then black is.

Green gives you acces to knight of the reliquary, pridemage (not a knight, but strong enough to include as a 3of) and Noble hierarch (turn2 crusader, turn3 attack with an equiped one is as good in legacy as it is in extended).

These cards also lower your curve a bit, which makes vail better in your deck. Playing the green splash also gives you acces to a land toolbox with wastelands, karakas and such, which has proven itself strong in other decks.

I know this changes the direction of your deck considerably, however I do believe it's the strongest direction you van take the deck.

[Seraph2k]

Today my merc. knights arrived. So I can start testing;)
The idea with green is the same I had a few weeks ago but then changed to WB. So I`ll first try the WB built. If that leads into a dead end I will try WG. (And if that fails too: Mono White Knights!)
This morning I had the old idea of playing the phyrexian crusader instead of merc. knights. His protection shuts of a lot oft the most played removal in legacy, but he has no synergy with any other card in the deck (infect).

[Atwa]

Today my merc. knights arrived. So I can start testing;)
The idea with green is the same I had a few weeks ago but then changed to WB. So I`ll first try the WB built. If that leads into a dead end I will try WG. (And if that fails too: Mono White Knights!)
I've already tried out black as a splash color and I didn't get it to work. I didn't try out Mercenary Knight, although it looks to me as a simple 4/4 vanilla for 3, which isn't that great. I understand the synergy with Haakon, although you only play 2 in the deck, which will result in you discarding another creature often.



This morning I had the old idea of playing the phyrexian crusader instead of merc. knights. His protection shuts of a lot oft the most played removal in legacy, but he has no synergy with any other card in the deck (infect).

The lack of synergy can be solved by cutting some cards for Stoneforge Mystic with some swords. Boosting your Crusader to a 4/4 with even more protection and added utility looks great and is a pretty hard to remove 3 turn clock, but I must say adding a BB costing card in a primary white deck seems hard on your manabase.

If I were to build a knight deck right now, it would be something along the lines of:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Qasili Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 knight Examplar
4 Knight of the White Orchid

1 Umezuma's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Aether Vail
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Plains

Exalted for our double strikers, maindeck hate for countertop, Stoneforge and a Knight Toolbox looks pretty decent to me. Sideboard options would include Leyline, Orim's Chant, Krosan Grip, Silver Knight, Path to Exile, etc

[Seraph2k]

Sounds interesting;) Exalted in this deck is really nuts. When I finished testing my BW list in one or two days I will try a GW list. But at the moment I have to change the list.
I own only one stoneforge and I think the price at the moment is a bit overhyped. So I will add the stoneforge maybe later. Another change will be only 2 savannah and two more basics. But first I will try the black list, maybe with a third haakon;)
If someone have testrsults please post it.
And i think that there should be two Elspeth in the list.

[Rainbow Maker]

stoneforge is not over-hyped. i added then to junk when i switched from deadguy ale many months ago. mystic saved my but so many times that day. You should try her; she is phenomenal.

[Seraph2k]

Till at the letters filled with cards will arrive I am thinking of potential SB cards.
I think the SB should have answeres to combo and graveyard-based decks.
Due to the fact that it is at this moment not sure which colors the final deck will have. MonoW, WB or maybe WG I will sort the SB choices by color.

White:

Orims Chant (with CC1) an absolut good choice against fastcombo like belcher. Maybe it can win against a risky SpiralTide player without counter backup.

Leyline of sanctity is another solid choice, but at the moment I prefer the chants. If I expect a lot of combo.....well, maybe chant and leylines but that seems to be to much hate;)

E. Canonists are to much to kill, so I will not play them

Silver Knight: you named it. Its very good against red and devastating if he carry's a jitte.

PAth to Exile: vs critical critters, which are faster or maybe better than ours

Artifacts:
Torm. Crypt. Without black the deck really needs it.
Relict of Prog. would be another choice. besides it can shrink goyfs.

Black:
Discard (Thsz, Duress, IoK) - whatever we need here
Extirpate - which could be useful

Green:
Krosan Grip: nothing to say. Its just great with its split second.

[Seraph2k]

After some more testing I am sure with the WB thing. Due to the lack of stoneforge I don`t play them, but found a very solid list.

4 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
8 Plains

4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawas Jitte

4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Mercenary Knight
3 Haakon
2 Nameless Inversion
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth KE

my Changes:
- 1 Scrubland (22 lands are enough)
- 3 hero of Bladehold (cc4 is way to slow)

+ 1 Jitte (better chances to find one)
+ 1 Haakon (proven his qualities)
+ 2 Knight of the White Orchid (amazing body for cc2 and mana fixing)

Some interesting facts:
I tested wastelands, but they slow the deck down one full turn. I know it can win games, but play a knight each turn is much better.

I am still not sure with Knight Mercenery: On the one hand he is a simple vanilla 4/4. On the other side he is a 4/4 or with Exemplar a 4 hit kill clock and in addition a haakon discardoutlet. Together with vial there are 8 ways to cheat haakon into play which are enough.

Haakon himself is a monster in this deck. If the opponent can*t exile our critters they come back each turn.

Mirran crusader is a beast. Beside Student the best critter in the deck and a very effective clock.

Now I have to create a solid SB. I think the most problematic matchups will be combo ( alot expected) and/or faster triebes.
4 Orims Chant ( I hope I can surprise combo players with it)
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Tormods Crypt (maybe Extirpate / Relict of Prog.)
3 Path to Exile

[Seraph2k]

No more comments about the deck? Ok, then here is my report how the deck worked at the last tournament here in germany:

Decklist: see above but with -1 Nameless Inversion / + 1 Sword of Fire and Ice

The Tournament (1-3):

1. Round vs UBG (1-2)
First game the can sweep my early critters with deed. Then vial haakon, gg.
Second game he draws nuts with hymn, daze, force and 2 goyfs.
Third game he has double daze, 1 goyf, 2 stalker. To much for 4 swords.

2. Round vs UBG (1-2)
First game I ended with two!!! lands....
Second game a Student (3/3) made a lot dmg. The haakon and SoFi made it,
Third game clique and a lot of counters sealed the game.

3. Round vs Loam (2-0)
Crusader owned him n game one.
Game two 2 crypts, crusader and elspeth ended the game quickly.

4. Round vs ANT (1-2)
First game he comboed turn two.
Second game double leyline and two random knights clashed him.
Third game I kept a hand with no chant or leyline. Played two students. Got duressed for elspeth.
Next turn I found a chant with to mana untapped (played jitte for a better clock). He then topdecked the missing LED and I lost.

Pro:
The deck showed that it can beat every deck that it faced on sunday!
Mirran Crusader is nuts. With Elspeth its gg.
Haakon is amazing. He wins games alone.
Leyline of S. in SB can win games
Knights are nice to play;)

Cons:
Very unlucky draws in the third game vs ANT
Nameless Inversion is to bad. I think crib swap will replace it.
Maybe there are not enough removal vs flying critters

the best thing:
I was able to get 2 stoneforges and a SoLaS.

[jamis]

I drafted up this list a few weeks ago and started testing it.

1cc
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
4 Student of Warfare

2cc
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight of Meadowgrain

3cc
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4cc
3 Hero of Bladehold

Land
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
6 Plains
3 Forest

I haven't tried Haakon. It seems too cute to be practical, but I can see how it would be strong in the late game. Perhaps I'll test the WB version over the WG version and see for sure. I considered the stoneforge package, but I fear it'd be too slow. Equipment is obviously strong with first strike and double strike.

I really like Mom here. She helps protect until Exemplar can get online. Not sure if Hero of Bladehold or Elspeth is better right now.

[Seraph2k]

Mom looks interesting. But I think she can slow you down in the first two or three turns. The best thing you can play is plains -> student. Turn two pump and attack . Turn three attack and cast a cc3 critter.... turn one mom is more defense, but I see that it can be a good play.
Elspeth is much better then hero;)
She pumps our critters... 2 hits with crusader kill your opponent.
I tested hero but he is not as good as he looks on paper:(
Without the stoneforge engine the deck worked well, so next I will test the deck with the toolbox.
Haakon is a bitch (with merc. knight very good! every opponent let you resolve him! he looks so undangerous...the discard haakon...gg).... give him a chance and see how he can win games very easy.

[jamis]

Got in a few hours of online testing with the WB version and the WG with Elspeth over Hero. The WG seems to play a lot better for me. The black splash seemed decent, but had more dead draws in topdeck mode, and even when Haakon got online, sometimes he was a bit too slow to throw the game in my favor. Elspeth is definitely better than Hero. I tested with 2 Elspeth, Knight Errant and 1 Elspeth Tirel. Have you tried Tirel? When I've seen her, she's insane. When you're behind, she throws out 3 dudes real quick, which helps majorly, and when you're ahead, she's the definition of overkill. I worry about her manacost, but with Knight of the Reliquary and Knight of the White Orchid, it might not be as huge of an issue as it appears.

[perm]

Crib Swap >> Inversion, it's a recurring STP, though if a 5/6 is needed it's not bad at all

[CleverPetriDish]

How about Entomb for your Haakons. You could then include a few singletons like Raven's Crime and Life from the Loam for some cool control features.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Here's a decklist I promised:

Deck link: http://www.mtgvault.com/ViewDeck.aspx?DeckID=162739

--ABC

[Seraph2k]

Your testingresults are sounding nice. Elspeth indeed is a house.
Tirel I never tested, but I will give her a chance;)
Now with 4 savannah in my legacypool I can start testing the WG built.
Crib Swap is really better than inversion, you are absolutly right.

[LegacyInferno]

I drafted up this list a few weeks ago and started testing it.

1cc
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
4 Student of Warfare

2cc
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight of Meadowgrain

3cc
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4cc
3 Hero of Bladehold

Land
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
6 Plains
3 Forest

I haven't tried Haakon. It seems too cute to be practical, but I can see how it would be strong in the late game. Perhaps I'll test the WB version over the WG version and see for sure. I considered the stoneforge package, but I fear it'd be too slow. Equipment is obviously strong with first strike and double strike.

I really like Mom here. She helps protect until Exemplar can get online. Not sure if Hero of Bladehold or Elspeth is better right now.



I really like this deck build. it seems pretty tight

Good job

[Seraph2k]

Yes it`s a very solid list, but I stay at my two elspeth and maybe a third instead of the heros.

[jamis]

Yeah, Bladehold looked good as an extra lord effect and token producer, but after taking Seraph's suggestion, Elspeth has proved better. My current list is

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
4 Student of Warfare

4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight of Meadowgrain

4 Mirran Crusader
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Elspeth Tirel
1 Elspeth Knight Errant

4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Wasteland
7 Plains
1 Forest

4 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Orim's Chant
4 Serenity
2 Journey to nowhere
3 Relic of Progenitus

I agree that supporting wasteland is difficult for the deck, but there's been a few times I needed to deal with a problem land such as Glacial Chasm or Grove of Burnwillows, so I included a singleton as a KotR target. I tried all sorts of combinations of Elspeths, and 2 Tirel 1 Errant feels best for me.

[ReAnimator]

Have you tried out a small buried alive package? I don't think you would want more than 2 as you don't want to have to rely on it or get hosed by grave yard stuff, but going into a mid or late game it should pull you ahead of any creature deck or control deck.

[LegacyInferno]

Have you tried out a small buried alive package? I don't think you would want more than 2 as you don't want to have to rely on it or get hosed by grave yard stuff, but going into a mid or late game it should pull you ahead of any creature deck or control deck.

and what consists of the buried alive package? besides buried alive

[Seraph2k]

I think going back to black would bring us a step back in the evolution of this new legacy deck.
Green feels really better, but you can tell us which cards would be in the package.

@Jamis:
How works the Elspeth split? I always loved to see EtKE, thats why I played her twice.
And no Jitte or SoFi/SoLS?

[jamis]

I started with 2 Errant and 1 Tirel. In that split, I wanted to see Tirel more - her ability to swarm the board with creatures really helps the deck, I feel. So I switched to 3 Tirel, however I kept drawing multiples, and although this wasn't terrible since I could just pop the first for 3 guys then play the second, I felt I'd be better off playing Errant after a Tirel made a bunch of guys rather than another Tirel. That's why I decided to go with the 2 Tirel 1 Errant split. Seeing 2 Tirels is also not as bad as seeing 2 Errants, although seeing 1 of each seems to be best if you draw into multiples.

And yeah, no equipment. I considered the stoneforge package to grab some equipment since it's obviously really good with first strike and double strike, but didn't test it fearing it would slow the deck down a bit too much. Plus with the exception of Affinity and maybe Zoo, the deck's already really good against aggro. I haven't been able to test against Zoo yet, though I've been dying to find out how that match-up plays; their creature's toughness starting at 3 rather than 2 could make the difference between the deck's positive tribal match-up and a negative Zoo match-up. I did get a fair amount of testing against a few Rock builds, and that deck's higher creature toughness didn't seem to hurt this deck, but Zoo does play a higher threat count than Rock, so it's hard to say. As for Affinity, Serenity from the board really swings things the other way, and Serenity is also helpful against some control heavy decks like Thopter Foundry Counterbalance and Enchantress. So yeah, haven't tried equipment yet, but might throw some in the board depending on how the Zoo match-up fairs.

[Seraph2k]

In two weeks we will have the next tournament, where I will play and test the WG version.
At my first tournament with this homemade deck I felt a bit unconfidant, but now after that solid performance I can't wait for it.
Ok last time I played WB, but I think WG will perform better.... we will see.
Hey we got a new knight, which cantrips equipment, but I think he is to slow and not srong enough to earn a slot.

[Seraph2k]

Ok so here is the list I played today on a 60p tournament:

Der Kreuzzug (The Crusade) - Knights

4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stonefoge Mystic

2 Elspeth Knight E.
2 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Light an Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial

4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
3 Savannah
9 Plains
1 Forest
60

SB:
4 leyline of Sanctity
4 orims Chant
3 Serenity
2 Torm Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

As you can see on the list above there are some changes. The absolute best addition is the stoneforge-toolbox.
Every game of the day it was nuts so see a stoneforge! The green splash for KotR is in my opinion nice but not that good then I expected.

1. Round vs Goblins (1-2)
In all three games he had a turn one lackey + at least 4 removals for my exemplars. Game 1 I lost against lackey warchief and 4 piledrivers. Game two was a mirran crusader + SoFI gg. Game three he has drawn against fantastic....

2. Round vs UB Control (1-0-1)
Game one two exemplars sealed the game. Game three was a long long long battle with Elspeth first on his, then on mine, then again on his side. Critical were his humility, explosives and deeds, but my equipment and serenity made it.

3. Round vs Enchantress (0-2)
The first time (within two tournaments) I faced a deck which won 2-0 against to me! First game was gg. Then I sided 3 serenity. He has O-ringed my first student, then I played serenity.... topdeck second O-ring and gg.... no words about that topdeck.

4. Round vs Merfolk (2-1)
Game one I win with 2 exemplar and one KotWOrchid. Second game I was not able to kill his dudes who was protected by kira. Game three vial and student proved why they are in the deck. Easy win.


A few thoughts after the tournament:
+ adding Mystic-Toolbox
+ Student of Warfare in Legacy
+ Mirran Crusader with and without Equipment
+ After 8 Rounds of legacy tournament testing the deck showed its power
+ No other legacy deck has more style
+ Serenity in the SB is amazing
+ I never missed merc knight and haakon
- I am not sure if green is better then the blacksplash
- KotR was the weakest card today:(

To sum up:
I never thought two month ago when I started the deck that it is so amazing and strong to play. After two tournaments with each 4 rounds (then I had to drop) I won 4 duels and lost 4 duels. Games 11-12 which is in my eyes a good start for the deck.
In the months ago I played "The Gate" and the results where NOT better. So I can give everyone the advice:
Build Knights - try them - love them!!!

[ZeinVoncy]

I will have to post my B/W Knights theme deck later.

First thought though is drop 1-Jitte and + 1 Sword of Feast and Famine.

KotR has been a bit disappointing for me as well, drop down to 2 and add other cards. I have liked seeing less copies off him. Have you thought about splashing black instead of green?

Rule of Law in S/B?

[Seraph2k]

As you can see on my first versions of the deck and my pro/cons of the tournament yesterday where I referred to mercenery knight and haakon, black was the first splash. I think I will first try other green knights and then go back wo the solid black splash.
Maybe the black crusader could work.
Another option will be cutting the splash. But I think monoW Knights are weaker than each other version.... I will see...

Jitte:
Two jitte are very good (three are better)... In the most cases one gets destroyed so you have another one. If you only play one and that is destroyed.... You want to see it every game!

Maybe Tivadar, Silverknight or Kor Firewalker deserves a SB place against goblins. Here in germany a lot of players play the deck at the moment.

[Seraph2k]

Please close this thread.

The deck received its final name and I worked on a primer which you can find here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20615-[PRIMER]-Der-Kreuzzug-(The-Crusade)-Knights-in-Legacy&p=539207