Red and Black - Can it work?

[bakofried]

I am wondering how strong the color combination of Red and Black could be in the current meta. Black offers strong disruption to deal with various versions of Counterbalance as well as Combo, and Red offers - well, burn. And Terminate. Essentially, I'm wondering if a Red Death shell could be created for the current meta.

Thoughts?

[Aggro_zombies]

The creatures in green and white are just better. Junk or Eva Green have much better clocks to back up the disruption, which is probably worth more than burn.

[Tammit67]

If you ran green with it, you probably could do well enough against anything not storm based. But then why run red when you could run blue or white and get more of a benefit?

[bracer028]

If you ran green with it, you probably could do well enough against anything not storm based. But then why run red when you could run blue or white and get more of a benefit?

eva green is actually good against storm combos.

[Greenpoe]

For starters, run Dark Confidant, Sygg, River Cutthroat, Grim Lavamancer and Goblin Guide and a boatload of fetches to feed Lavamancer. Then throw in Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Searing Blaze, Countryside Crusher (to help with card quality). Perhaps a couple Fireblast, too. With all the burn, you could kill any creatures your opponent drops so you're Confidants, Goblin Guides and Syggs can swing in, then draw cards off that and burn them to death.

[Tammit67]

eva green is actually good against storm combos.

I don't believe you

[sdematt]

Dragon Stompy + Black for Perish and discard or something? Dark Sligh or something?

I've always wanted to make it work, but was never sure if it could cut the mustard.

Also, you're also missing out on some classic Canadian 80's rock by Doug and the Slugs- "Making it work"

-Matt

[NecroYawgmoth]

Well, there was this in the past.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15234-[DECK]-Hyena-Hell

But the metashift towards even faster and faster aggro destroyed it somehow =(

[bakofried]

I hadn't thought of Sygg - and he does work well with Lavamancer. I'll start testing online with Hyena Hell, who knows - maybe it can be salvaged.

[bracer028]

I don't believe you

then you are doing something seriously wrong

[Tammit67]

then you are doing something seriously wrong

Consider this: Your main way of disrupting game 1 is discard. An experienced Storm player sees black and saves brainstorm for discard, plays out artifact mana to prevent it from getting discarded, takes your discard with duress, silences you turn two, or just comboes off. Even if your discard hits, having a hand with enough disruption and a competent clock is rare. TES is more than cabable of beating 1 piece of discard, and AnT can cantrip into what it needs to recover before you can swing enough. 10 pieces of discard are cool, but without lotus cobra turn one, only one of them is online before combos critical turn. Eva green disrupts the hand and the mana base, but you do nothing when they actually combo off.

Postboard, you have some sort of permanent based hate? Most lists run echoing truth to bring in. Is it mindbreak trap? Combo should be keeping in their duress package anyway, along with enough silences. Extirpate? You might get them game 2 with it, but it is not that hard to play around once you know it is coming.

I think the matchup is 60-40 in storm's favor.

On topic: Confidants, lavamancer, terminate, burn sound solid. You'll still need more of a clock to keep up with the heavier hitters of goyf and KotR. Tombstalker? I guess you wouldn't want confidant if you wanted to run the 5/5.

[bakofried]

Confidant is the better of the two for the deck, so it would be Stalker who's cut.

[bracer028]

Confidant is the better of the two for the deck, so it would be Stalker who's cut.

you guys need to check out the newly evolved eva green deck.

eva green cut the snuff outs (this part needs tinkering), run confidant and stalker together.

[Watcher487]

What about Kaervek's Purge? It's probably not the best removal out there but for 4 mana you can severly mess up and opponent...

[colo]

I used to work on Red Death about a year ago, and tried out my list in a few local tourneys to some success. Grim Lavamancer and Dark Confidant really are a potent team. The problem is to find a truly quick clock that suits the manabase and does't cripple you off of Bob - I never had the balls to run him alongside Tombstalker (which itself has some problems with Grim Lavamancer as well). If one opts for the next best black heavy-hitting critter, Abyssal Persecutor, your other card choices are fairly limited, since a lot of your cards have to (also) revolve around getting rid of that beast if need be. Nyxathid could be effective with a heavy suite of discard. Kiln Fiend has done well in other BR lists, though you need to build around it as well.

I don't think that you can make Red Death work at this time when other colors provide such nasty thinks like Stoneforge Mystic, Tarmogoyf or blue permission. Wizards need to print a card to make the archetype reach critical mass and become viable. I do hope that such a thing happens, so much is for certain.

[bakofried]

Well, the list plays fairly well against Aggro-Control decks. There's too much removal and discard for them to resolve a creature. Although this may just be indicative of one of Black's strengths, and that is dealing with those decks.

[Greenpoe]

Fire Covenant or Pyrokinesis might even work, or Sulfuric Vortex could speed up the clock and work well with Sygg as long as you can play the control role well enough and burn them under your life total.

[bakofried]

Not a fan of Sygg, though I may not have done enough testing.

[(nameless one)]

What about a Jund build? You know, the kind that abuses Bloodbraid Elf and Tarmogoyf?

[bakofried]

In my mind, I'm attempting to craft a RB (or BR, doesn't really matter) Fish deck. Essentially, we've seen what Green can do (Eva) we've seen what White can do (Deadguy) but beyond Red Death (which is far too suicide for my tastes and the meta) there isn't a BR deck of the nature. I believe that RGB has found it's niche, specifically in the case of Aggro Loam. This, however, has not. So I'll keep testing. If any of you are interested, here's a list. If it does pick up, we'll move into the Hyena Hell thread that was dropped earlier (thanks, btw).
Artifact:
3x Ratchet Bomb
Creature:
4x Dark Confidant
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Nyxathid
Instant:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Terminate
Land:
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Marsh Flats
1x Mountain
6x Swamp
Sorceries:
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach
Sideboard:
4x Rack and Ruin
4x Deathmark
3x Engineered Plague
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Tormod's Crypt
How do I link?

[Team-Hero]

This is what my girlfriend is running in StarCity LA:

Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
2 Dragonskull Summit
3 Mountain
9 Swamp

Creatures
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Demigod of Revenge

Spells
2 Blood Moon
4 Terminate
4 Do or Die
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Reprocess
4 Burning Wish

Sideboard
SB: 1 Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 Slagstorm
SB: 1 Red Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Nightmare Void
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 1 Apocalypse or Anarchey
SB: 1 Noxious Vapors
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Rite of Consumption
SB: 1 Boom/Bust
SB: 1 Haunting Echoes
SB: 4 ?

[bakofried]

I'm rather confused. Is there a set of Burning Wishes missing from her MD? Why Scrabbling claws? Why not disruption? Why only 3 Arenas? What did you guys test against?

[sporenfrosch1411]

Could you give ANY information why you chose which card? Why only 2 Blood Moon instead of 4 Blood Moon and 2 Magus of the moon? Why Do or Die at all, isn't there way better removal in these colors? Why Scrabbling Claws, they dont make any sense at all? Why Dragonskull Summit over more fetchlands? Why Persecutor over Tombstalker, and if Persecutor, what are your sac outlets? What does this deck do in the first 3 rounds?

Let me sum it up as friendly as i can right now: the list is not good and looks like someone just pulled out some cards off his binder to randomly build a pile of 60 (btw, it isnt even 60 here...()

[Team-Hero]

Yes, the list is missing the 4x Burning Wishes. The list is also suppose to be 4x Nihil Spellbomb, I just have the Claws in that spot because I haven't updated my Workstation to the new cards. Through what I have tested, I do like the card Do or Die. I feel it's a very powerful card against Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk. I guess there's something wrong with how I'm testing since my results have made me believe that Do or Die is a good removal spell. I tested against a few decks but I'm limited because there is absolutely no Magic community where I live. The closest shop is 50 minutes away from me and all they do is draft. I haven't been able to test much with my Workstation because I work 52 hour weeks. I'm sorry if the list looks very bad. I promise I won't post in this site anymore since I get the feeling that my content seems unwanted. I just wanted to share my list and participate in the discussion of the thread. I just got excited because I read about a BR deck discussion and I wanted to share my thoughts.

If anyone here ends up going to SCG Los Angeles, I bid you good luck in the event.

[bakofried]

I am, again, confused. You've been a member since 2006; you have 274 posts on the site. Our criticisms would be considered lightweight, is there a reason you're taking them so seriously? All we asked for is an explanation of the cards you're playing; why, for instance, MD Nihil Spellbomb? GY-based decks aren't at a high right now, and if you were that worried about 'Goyf, you'd be running Relic.

[Team-Hero]

Relic vs Nihil Spellbomb: The theory is that they both 'cycle'. Having mainboard graveyard hate isn't horrible since I'm seeing a lot of Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliq going around. I don't want to get rid of my Demigod of Revenge if it hits the graveyard. Tarmogoyf isn't really the problem, it's the Knight of the Reliq.

The main concept of the deck is to beat the Aggro decks. The second priority of the deck is to beat decks that use a lot of nonbasic lands. The third priority is to beat graveyard based decks. The deck is just simple to play; it's not suppose to have a great matchup against combo. The person that is going to pilot this deck really doesn't know how to play very well but she wanted to participate in the event anyways. I much rather have the deck stuffed with mainboard hate cards that can almost win a game all by themselves if they are lucky enough to run into the specific deck they are meant to combat.

The Demigod of Revenge is almost counter proof. I just wanted a creature that was good against counterspells but at the same time was a beater. I understand that Vexing Shusher is in the format, but he just wasn't a good enough clock.

Abyssal Persecuter can be killed with the following: Buning Wish for Rite of Consumption, Terminate, Do or Die, and Reprocess.

Do or Die is practically half a Damnation. Most aggro decks in the format right now are just too fast for Damnation. The majority of the times that I lose to an aggro deck, is because I die to multiple creatures, not just a single creature. Do or Die lets me half the power of my opponent's creature presence while at the same time not nuking my own in the process. If any stragglers are left after a Do or Die, I can just pick off the important creatures with a Terminate or Lighting Bolt.

The sideboard is mostly utility for the Burning Wish.

I'm sorry if I came off a little dramatic. I just deal with a lot of people I never want to see again through the course of my work day. The last thing I want to do is put up a post and just get slammed for writing my thoughts down. I just wanted a release valve for the stress that I accumulate all day and I wasn't ready to read the posts that came after that. I'll think twice about using this site when I get off of work.

[bakofried]

Eh, it's cool, you run into shit outside Magic all the time. I still question Demigod, though. Aren't you afraid of Swords/Path messing with your mojo? Also, what are the Cyclops Gladiators for in the board? They seem a touch like wasted space.

[Team-Hero]

Yeah, the Cyclopses are wasted space. That slot is going to change for sure, but I don't know to what. I'm not really afraid of Swords since almost every creature gets killed by Swords. Either they have it or the don't I figure. What I could do is add Void on the sideboard and cast it for one before playing down the big threats. Demigods and Persecuters are going to eat Swords, there's no question about that.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Your choices still seem irrelevant to me, there is close to none synergy in this deck neither does it follow a straight plan.
If you can't take criticism, then maybe sharing your thoughts on the internet isn't the right place for you. I am looking forward to hear what place you could take with this deck, maybe that will open your eyes.

[Grollub]

Regarding RB decks in general: I don't think this color combination adds alot to each and other if the deck is just a Suicide with burn or Sligh with discard. If you dilute Sui with burn you're either weakening your disruption package or taking out the sweet sweet removal black already offers, Sligh on the other hand will lose it's primary edge - the range of a rather immense burn package.
- If an aggresive RB deck would prove to be viable, I would guess it wouldn't be some bastardization of the already existing archtypes of Sui or Sligh.

The reason BG works is it trades creatures for better creatures and removal for better removal. Basically upgrades and not changes like a splash of red would incline.

[dahcmai]

I think I would concentrate making the deck be able to even stand a chance vs combo and the mid range decks first. Combo isn't a matter of tossing discard at them. You need a pretty fast clock or more disruption to beat them. For the midrange decks, you need to have enough things that flat remove a critter to get through. It's going to be a tough balance.

Oddly enough, I think if I was going to build a RB deck, I think I would have to side over to a controllish build and use things like Mimic Vat to keep the aggression going with gatekeepers or something utility. Sarkhan the Mad lends himself well to keeping up, though you can always get ballsy with Confidant or a little safer in Phyrexian Arena. I like Sarkhan just because he's disposable and can make hard to kill critters if need be. Then you can shift the board between heavy creature kill and heavy discard and disruption. That would be my approach.

[Team-Hero]

Your choices still seem irrelevant to me, there is close to none synergy in this deck neither does it follow a straight plan.
If you can't take criticism, then maybe sharing your thoughts on the internet isn't the right place for you. I am looking forward to hear what place you could take with this deck, maybe that will open your eyes.

I'm not the one playing the deck at SCG Los Angeles. I'm playing another deck. I just shared the list of another person and explained the card choices. I too would be interested to see how the deck performs in that kind of event, but the pilot is not very skilled to begin with. I 'might' play the deck at a Legacy eight man on Saturday before it runs on Sunday.


Oddly enough, I think if I was going to build a RB deck, I think I would have to side over to a controllish build...

I agree too. I think the deck needs to run Grixis colors, but that's another topic for another thread.

[Rune]

There has been a fairly successful RB Kiln Fiend deck floating around online

[forsmark]

Regarding RB decks in general: I don't think this color combination adds alot to each and other if the deck is just a Suicide with burn or Sligh with discard. If you dilute Sui with burn you're either weakening your disruption package or taking out the sweet sweet removal black already offers, Sligh on the other hand will lose it's primary edge - the range of a rather immense burn package.
- If an aggresive RB deck would prove to be viable, I would guess it wouldn't be some bastardization of the already existing archtypes of Sui or Sligh.

The reason BG works is it trades creatures for better creatures and removal for better removal. Basically upgrades and not changes like a splash of red would incline.

I think this sums it up pretty well. While I would like to see a viable RB deck, I don't think it's gonna happen unless you also splash green. But then, you're almost inclined to drop red for something else, like white.

[bakofried]

Kikoo, could you post a list please? I'm interested in nabbing a look.

[Rune]

R/B Kiln Fiend by ypkon

Main Deck
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
3 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Dark Confidant
2 Countryside Crusher
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Manamorphose
4 Lava Dart
4 Chain Lightning
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Duress
3 Aphotic Wisps
2 Thoughtseize
1 Night's Whisper

Sideboard
1 Duress
2 Nature's Ruin
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Perish
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Engineered Plague
3 Sulfuric Vortex

[Mr. Safety]

It seems that the prevailing problem with the concept is the lack of powerful mid-game options to keep the clock moving. Here are some (humble) suggestions:

Sulfuric Vortex
Taurean Mauler
Flametongue Kavu
Koth of the Hammer
Demigod of Revenge


I know Vortex has already been mentioned and I feel it's about the strongest play you can make from the list. It will deal somewhere in the ballpark of 6-8 damage each game if left unanswered. You can stall them out with your disruption and quicken the clock with burn/Grims. Demigod has the power level you need but the mana cost you DON'T need. Dark Ritual is the only thing that could make it happen...or maybe Seething Song.

I also think that a card like Everlasting Torment would be a fantastic way to bring the bigger threats in the format to heel. Of course if you plan on using Sulfuric Vortex or Everlasting Torment...it's just a little splash away to use Swords with no setback and then utilizing a left-field choice like Jotun Grunt

And what about Anathemancer...potential or not?

[Fuzzy]

What about a Jund build? You know, the kind that abuses Bloodbraid Elf and Tarmogoyf?

Legacy Jund would make me very happy. Hymn + Blightning is RAPE.

[Beatusnox]

I've been toying with a BR Discard build. So far its coming along pretty well, but im finding it too inconsistent atm. If anyone is interested I can post a list.

[Michael Keller]

I'm sorry if I came off a little dramatic. I just deal with a lot of people I never want to see again through the course of my work day. The last thing I want to do is put up a post and just get slammed for writing my thoughts down. I just wanted a release valve for the stress that I accumulate all day and I wasn't ready to read the posts that came after that. I'll think twice about using this site when I get off of work.

No one is interested in your pity, to be honest. Constructive criticism is an important part of the building process which is why it is exceptionally hard to develop an idea in this forum (which is why a great deal of long-time Source members ignore these forums because of an inherent lack of constructive criticism). If you want to strengthen a deck, you need to elaborate more on your selections and explain why you feel the choices you made are worth developing instead of mindlessly promoting something without giving people a clue as to why you feel it is worth exploring.