Caw Blade in Legacy

[dahcmai]

Sad, but it seems it might be true. The darling of the netdeck scene, Caw Blade, is coming to Legacy near you.

I've seen a few people trying this out now so I decided to give it a run also.

Sam Black has a pretty decent version here also. (Premium though) I am fairly sure he posts here as well so hope he doesn't mind starting this conversation up here.
(I actually started with his and just went crazy having a ball with it all day)

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/21399_Black_Magic_It_Was_Just_A_Matter_Of_Time_Legacy_CawBlade.html


Here's what I ended up with after some playing around, testing, and then the Sat tournament run.

1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Moat
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

60

Sideboard:
1 Peacekeeper
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Seasinger
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
1 Wrath of God


The biggest change from Sam Black's and what I ended up playing were his Sword Thopter package in exchange for a set of Moats. I love Moat. I also upped the Force count to 4. I am glad I did since my first match of the tournament was Belcher no less.

Anyway, it literally plays like one of the old Vintage Fish decks. Drop some critter and watch him go. In this case, the critter usually comes with a sidearm.

I'll go over some of the seemingly less than stellar choices.

Squadron Hawk is actually pretty damned decent. It seems horrible. Then you cast a hawk and go get 3 more. Then you Brainstorm them back in. Hmmm, Ancestral Recall sounds appealing all of a sudden. The standard trick of using Jace to do that works much better for 1 blue mana. It's a really good engine. I just wish you could repeat it more. It's like a reverse Accumulated knowledge. It's also good for always having something to stick a sword on obviously. In my version, you need it for flying over your moats.

Celestial Colonnade? Seriously? Sounds seriously crappy. Moat likes this land. Two reasons obviously. 2WW and being able to fly over. It's huge, kills most anything in it's way and if a SoFF is going over, it's a free hit that hit hard. The cipt part is the only reason I don't have 4. I might go up to 2. It's not that bad.

Elspeth, Knight-Errant - I have an ongoing love affair with Elspeth. I love that card sooo much. Flying Mishras and Stoneforges are fun. Provides Soldiers for sword equipping, though I never actually used it for that considering Hawks were all over the place. There's nothing more discouraging to a player than seeing an Elspeth he can't attack go ultimate.

Moat - Ah Moat, how I have missed you being in my decks. Your time is come again. Birds will hang out at your watering hole. Screw you Goblins, Zoo, and Merfolk! This card buys you game 1 almost always. It's something for them to Kgrip game 2 and 3, but that's ok, they aren't hitting the Swords and if they aren't, they are hurting. I hit a control deck that realized it really couldn't win being jam packed with Trinket Mages, Dreadnoughts, and mishras. This is a card truly worth it's monstrous price tag.

The board has a couple of odd choices.

Seasinger - This is from Sam Black's choices and I loved it. Show and Tell, Emrakul? That's kewl, Seasinger for me. My Turn?


The Sword package was a test to see which ones I liked the best. Fire and Ice obviously was my favorite to bring in. Body and Mind wasn't bad though. I don't think I boarded the Light and Shadow once oddly enough. Though no one I ran into had swords or I never saw them. These can be cut to make room. This is a test, it is only a test.


In the end, I think I want a Disenchant of some sort. Counterbalance came up and I really didn't have an answer for it. He got extremely unlucky and I managed to skate by it. If he had any sort of decent draw that weren't lands on top, I might have gotten locked out by it. I kind of want Aura of Silence or some other 3 drop counterbalance killer. Also Pithing Needle is a serious pain. I really want to be able to kill things like that. It was to the point I was wanting to attempt to splash green for a Trygon Predator by the end of the night.


On to the testing.

Merfolk - game 1 obviously it's all about Moat. They can't get rid of it, but you can't cast it easily through countermagic. It's game if you can stick it. It's rough if you don't find it. You can win, but it's tricky. Without the Moat, you go for the Jitte win. You stick a Stoneforge, go get a Jitte and pray they haven't built an army too big to kill by then.

Goblins - Game 1 isn't fun. It's all about Jitte and Moat again. Game 2 becomes tricky as they get Kgrip in the green versions and can get out of the moat lock. You will be frustrated by their cycling.

Those were the only two decks I could play against for any length of time before the tournament.

I ended up going though Belcher, Rock, Landstill, Meathooks, and some strange 4 color concoction in the top, then split finals with the same Belcher deck from round 1. Not many people, but a decent run. Least the players are good so it got a fair outing.

I'm quite impressed and will be playing this for a bit. I love control, especially with some of my favorite cards in it. If you try this out, add some sort of Disenchant to the board. Take out the Swords you don't like and maybe the Forge tender. He's only in there just in case someone has a lot of burn, it's not used much.


Pick up your foils now, It's the real deal.

[hyc8028]

With only 14 blue cards, did you have a hard time pitching cards to FoW?

Props for taking a Caw Blade and went to finals in legacy tourney.

[kiblast]

Dahcmai, I'd like a bit more of U to fully support Fow. Is the full set of Stoneforge needed? Also I like the fact you are using Colonnade, it's a pet land of mine and I've been using it with nice results in almost any UWx Landstill I built. Seasinger in sb is techy. Love it.
Anyway, 3 Moats? I know it's a house but isn't it a bit slow and clunky in 3x?

Edit: Pithing Needle, Counterbalance? Why not 3x EE? At 1 or 2 they kill pretty much the 80% of what show up in a legacy game. Also they dodge Counterbalance pretty nicely.

Also, I see you run full set of Wasteland, and 3 manlands. It sounds like you should play the 4th one and throw in Standstill...^^

[sco0ter]

Hi, I am noob concerning the term "Caw Blade". For me this deck looks like a traditional UW Control deck with a small amount of aggression (Hawk and Mystic). Or like a Landstill deck that uses Hawk as draw engine instead of Standstill.

So what exactly defines your deck and where does the name come from? Is it the Hawk?

[Philipp2293]

The name is derived from Standard. At first there was an UW control deck only using the Birds, named Caw Go. Recently Mystic and Swords have been added, now its Caw Blade. It's THE DTB atm.

Also, thx for the list, looks interesting! Do you mind posting Sam Black's list for people without premium?

[Infinitium]

Nice to see the Hawk engine actually used in legacy.Pride of the Clouds? The forecast alone can win topdeck wars and it is semi-beefy for its mana cost.

[claudio.r]

Glad to see that are more people working on the idea of a "caw-go" deck in legacy and having good results with it. I'm personally testing a more tempo oriented version, i'll put a decklist later today since i'm in a hurry right now. Good job Dachmai ;)

[Muradin]

I don't see the point of running Wasteland as a 4-of in the original decklist. You'll only set yourself back by a turn by using it, you got enough spot removal against opposing manlands and you don't run Standstill to get additional value out of that card.

[froggy]

A little redundant don't you think dahcmai? Or did you just not read the "new and developmental" deck post right before yours entitled "Hawks and S-words"? I figured since the deck is going to make a splash in Legacy, why not give it a new name? Plus I think Caw Blade sounds lame, and a reference to SNL's Sean Connery skit is a much better fit. Thanks for taking credit for my deck idea :rolleyes:

Maybe you should read this first?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20310-Hawks-and-S-words

[dahcmai]

Froggy, Those aren't all that close at all other than the hawks and sword itself. You have Tarmogoyf, Pridemages, Hierarchs, Daze, Divining Top, Counterbalance, and others. I'm going in a direction with Planeswalkers and Moat. They aren't even remotely the same. It's like saying your deck is a copy of New Horizons because you have Tarmogoyfs and Hierarch or it's Merfolk since it's got Dazes and Forces in it.

It's not a new idea anyway. Caw Blade is a Standard deck. I didn't make it up, neither did you. You may have come up with that idea on your own, but you weren't the only one. It's been around a while now even in Legacy, I just hadn't paid it much mind until now. I just wanted to discuss it and yours wasn't going in the same direction as this so it was pointless to post in there. I don't even have green at all.


Anyway, Force is a little low on it's count. It's probably going to have to be fixed. I did have some problems here and there so I was noticing it. Call it greed.

Stoneforge is everything, you really do want to see them that often. You don't do well unless you have a critter early. I tried playing it as a traditional control deck and it doesn't work very well.

3 Moats. Yeah, it's overkill, but I was playing two for a bit and when you wanted them, you wanted them bad. I lost every game I couldn't find one against goblins. Even if they slowed a turn before getting rid of it, it bought you enough time to pull out. I really can't see going back to 2 despite how much it seems like hitting a nail with a backhoe. If it didn't turn off Stoneforge, It would be Humility. The deck plays a lot like older fish decks, so trying to go aggro against a way better aggro deck doesn't work out too well.

One of his biggest differences was Sam played the Sword/Thopter combo in it. I am thinking I might have to go back to that somehow just to up the blue count by that three cards and Hawks are good for making you discard a Sword of the Meek and plopping it back into play. He made a point about that. I am not a big fan of that combo, but the blue count needs something. I am tempted just to go with Preordain and cut things down overall. Would allow me to cut a Moat which would be nice.

Well, I was hoping Sam would chime in and post his list because I am still not sure on that whole policy about copying stuff from premium here. Some people got all bent out of shape about it and some didn't, but I can't remember what the final verdict was on that.

[zpikduM]

Could you run Ghostly Prison/Propaganda if you can't get your hands on Moat? [Propaganda is probably favoured here as a Force pitch]

[dahcmai]

Propaganda probably wouldn't be a bad choice for that spot for budget reasons. Having the blue is a plus. Problem will be against Goblins you end up losing your guys a lot to Incinerator, a card you can't counter and one that doesn't lose them card advantage when they kill a Hawk with it. The reason I mention that is you end up going the long game with them if you are going to win it and they will pick at you in the mean time through a propaganda and you usually are already hurting from the slight beating they inevitably got in. It's worth a try though.

[ivanpei]

I posted on the other thread but I just want to point out again that I much prefer the mighty Bitterblossom over Caw. The brainstorm thing is obviously an awesome play, but by itself, 1/1 flyers for 2 mana don't cut it in Legacy. Blossom + Equipment is very very strong. Maybe a splash black for blossom?

[obituary 95]

I actually think the hawks are really good in the meta right now and are needed. because if you go turn two hawk get two hawks and your opponent is playing something with a lot of hand disruption such as hymn to tourach you can make his hymn really bad . but they are also awesome chump blockers for two mana.

in fact there were games today against affinity that I would have straight out lost to if I did not have the hawk

[dahcmai]

Well, that interaction with Brainstorm and Jace is the main reason to play it. It really is that strong of a play. Think of it as a creature that draws you two cards when it comes into play is a 1/1 flyer for 1WU. I'd play that. We play Fathom Seer for that kind of value with a massive tempo punch to the gut.

Bitterblossom would be pretty good in addition to the hawks. I wish it wasn't black though. I hate not having a ton of basics. It might be worth trying out Bitterblossom in a black build. I had actually thought about it just because I am so impressed by having GFTT in Legacy now and always wanted something that could play Contamination. I might see if I can come up with a black build. It probably wouldn't hurt to just transfer Darkwing Duck over to Legacy also and see how it does. The other one translated well.

[wizard_of_gore]

That engine exist before caw blade (what a stupid name for deck). It's called life from the loam :rolleyes: and with brainstorm and especially jace it's ancestral recall every turn (remember BUG landstil?). So, i don't know what's hawk brings new to legacy, except for 1/1 body which serves as equip fodder. Seems like joke.

[Hunding Gjornersen]

And before Life from the Loam/Jace, the Mind Sculptor there was Land Tax/Scroll Rack. Just because a similar engine exists, doesn't mean Caw Blade can't be good. Being equipment fodder is really good when the equipment is Sword of Stuff and Things.

[ivanpei]

I like this deck, it seems pretty damn interesting. I'll go track down a set of caws. I don't have 3 moats so I'll just play my lovely 1 and a pair of enlightened tutors. Enlightened also fetches blossom and equipment, which is gravy. This reminds me of that mono white stompy deck with moats and flyers. Should be interesting.

Anyway, I noticed this deck is 4 drop heavy. Why not play some Ensnaring Bridges instead of Moats. This is not just from a budget perspective, but from a manacurve perspective. Of course this makes Elspeths and Swords less good but it still works perfectly well with Jitte (pump after declaring attacks). If you are fighting aggro, you are likely tutoring for jitte and not the Sword anyway. Elspeth would just be confined to baby making. ;)

And you have just 14 blue cards? Seems very dodgy to support Force. If you splash black, you can cut Force. I think an initial decklist I would like to test would be:

4 Caw
4 Blossom
3 Stoneforge
1 Jitte
1 Sword (I prefer Fire and Ice)

4 Brainstorm
3 Jace
2 Elspeth
1 Moat
1 Bridge
2 Enlightened Tutor

4 Swords
4 Thoughtseize
2 Path/GFTT
2 Duress

4 Flooded
2 Marsh
2 Delta
4 Wastes
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea

It has plenty more 1 drops so you don't have to be T1 land go every game.

[obituary 95]

there was a caw blade list that recently did well in a legacy tournament on mtgo. here is the list

4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of the Synod
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland


4 Squadron Hawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Daze
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of the Meek
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Umezawa's Jitte

i do not know how close this is to Sam's list but the list seems really lose

[zahori]

I really like this deck and have been playing it on modo. I have recorded some videos with it for those interested in watching the deck in action. I went 3-1 today in a daily with it, will try to have the videos up for that tomorrow.

http://www.youtube.com/user/modozahori

[dahcmai]

How did the Sword Thopter work out for you? I have to admit, it's probably a necessary evil. Though not a too bad of one.


That's pretty close to Sam's list. His was kind of all over the place too. All the way down to the random Vial. Change Spell snare to counterspell, Daze to a Jace, and he didn't use seat of the Synod.

[Nidd]

That deck looks even freakier than the Standard version. Playing a Control deck with 8 "dorks" in it looks so awkward, but especially the possibility of playing ThopterSword looks really strong.

I suppose this deck isn't really the best against Merfolk, though, is it? How do you fix this problem? Seasinger, SoFaI, some Paths and pray?

[Drac]

About this list,

1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Moat
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas

60

Sideboard:
1 Peacekeeper
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Seasinger
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
1 Wrath of God

The Hawks and brainstorm and jace is a very powerfull play that is good enough for legacy.
The Moat plan seems very much needed because as said before vs alot of decks playing 1/1 flying dorks just doesnt cut it.
But versus those decks u can hide behind ur moat, use them as chumpers vs flyers till u got some removal. And kill them with Jace/ELspeth
And versus other decks playing 1/1 dorks and equiping them with a sword of jitte does actually cut it so u can switch plans according to the opponents deck/game state
Ur curve seems kinda weird. I would cut two 4 drops because u just dont want to have that many for your deck to run smoothly.
Also cut 1 stoneforge mystic and add some more blue cards for FoW. Maybe -1 mystic -1 Moat -1 Jace/Elspeth +3 Ponder

Also cut the sword of feast and famine for the sword of fire and ice.

And dont run burrenton forge tenders and 3 swords in the board in legacy please. U will need the spots for more usefull things like CB hate.

I would also like to see a few copies of Engineered Explosives maindeck and a random offcollor dual. But there really isnt room for that.

25 Land is far too much if u curve out @ 4 in a 2 collor deck that uses retarded stuff like brainstorm-hawks
Go -2 Land and add the 4th ponder and maybe an EE. If then u could squeeze 1 enlightened tutor in the deck u would have a smoother curve, still acces to 3 moats, more cards for FoW and a maindeck out to CB.

Also when playing this deck with wastelands, u should most likely really hold back on the wasting if u dont have a good reason to.

my 2 cents

Below my version of ur list. I have tried not to change the way your deck fundimentally plays. I have just tried to increase the blue count for Fow, make the curve run more smoothly, add some more outs to certain situations and work abit on the manabase

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Moat
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Stoneforge mystic
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Path to Exile
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the mind sculpter
1 Enlightened tutor
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Celestial Collonade
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea/ Volcanic Island/Tropical Island (might change depending if u want some off collor stuff in the board, mostly used for EE on 3
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn


The tolaria in this list seems very good. It will fetch A.Ruins if need the equipments back from the yard, or if u want EE lock, finds wasteland or karakas if u need them. Can find a kill condition in the manlands and can find EE as an additional non counterable out to CB.

[dahcmai]

Nice suggestions, I'll definitely try the Academy Ruins. I like that one a lot. Tolaria West seems good with it also. It has the side benefit of searching up the lone Colonnade, Karakas, or off color dual when you want it.

Cutting a Moat is ok if you have the extra draw. I had already replaced a couple of cards including a Moat getting Preordain in, but Ponder is about the same thing really. The Tutor has to stay if you cut one. Goblins and Merfolk are such a pain if you don't get an early moat to stall them out a bit. Merfolk luckily has the problem of scooping if you stick one. Sure, there's the one flying guy, but he's not such a worry if you stop everything else.

I'm not sold on pulling the Feast and Famine Sword though. That untap is a wonder when playing with planeswalkers. I like Fire and Ice and was trying out the other swords out of the board. Those were a temporary addition anyway. The Feast and Famine one still was my favorite due to the mana untap. It made swinging with manlands, dropping planeswalkers, or Moat just to easy to protect. counter wars became really easy to win also since you could just bait them with something equally as nasty as what you want and then dump something worse after attacking. Nothing meaner than dropping Jace, getting it countered, the attacking only to drop another one with a force back up.

Pulling a Stoneforge is ok since the Ponders are in now. I can agree with that one too. You tended to run out of things to fetch sometimes with them, but you always want one early if possible.

I'll give your list a try, I like it much better actually. Thanks for the thoughts. And yeah, I knew the board was crap, but the deck was new to my hands and I really hadn't seen much I was worried about. Dismantling Blow is what's got my pick for Disenchant effect right now. I wanted a 3 cost card, but the only things around that area that are worth a crap is Aura of Silence, Terashi's Grasp, and maybe Abolish. It's a rough choice, though having an Enlightened Tutor makes Aura look a lot better. EE will help in that area too.

I'll figure out more on the board once I see what it's bad against. Though I can tell you now, the Spell Pierces stay. that's the only one I know I want to stay in there. I haven't got too much chance to play against some of the better decks in the hands of people who know them well. I still need to see how it does against Dredge, BUG Landstill, Reanimator, Zoo, and Imperial Painter.

[Drac]

If you want to keep the sword of feast and famine be my guest, the pro green is a nice bonus versus some decks.

Just dont forget that Tolaria West can find Engineered Explosives since it is also a cmc 0 spell.

[Rune]

This list took 1st in a 30-man tournament around here about a month ago:

1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
6 Snow-covered Island
4 Snow-covered Plains
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Ponder
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Chrome Mox
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
1 Umzawa's Jitte
4 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

----------

2 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Spell Pierce

[Drac]

Although that list seems suboptimal the use of chrome mox in combination with squadron hawk is very innovative and cool.

[Rune]

There are some things that could be changed around, but I think his approach is a step in the right direction. The more Landstill-ish your deck is, the less successful you will be.

[obituary 95]

i have been playing with the deck a lot and have been having lots of fun with it.

here is my list so far

1 sword of feast and famine
1 sofi
1 sword of the meek
3 thopter foundry
1 umezawa's jitte

4 squadron hawk
4 stoneforger mystic

4 brainstorm
3 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell pierce
4 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares

4 flooded strand
9 islands
1 marsh flats
2 misty rainforest
4 plains
3 tundra

like I said before this deck has been a ton of fun so far. but I am sure some of you will have some questions about some of my card choices so I will try to proactively answer them. the first you will ask is why do you run sofi and sfaf. because when I was playing with only two swords the deck felt slightly underpowered and I was tired of being blocked by tarmogoyfs and nights of the reliquary all day long. but I am also considering cutting sofi all together . lets face it between stonefoger and the mighty birds we have a lot of card advantage which makes sofis ability to draw cards irrelevant. plus its damage ability is also pretty bad because it doesn't really kill much in legacy anymore. and in the match ups that it would kill dudes I would rather just find jitte and kill there stupid merfolk . but a lot of the time you also would not want to get sofi against control decks mostly white based control decks because it doesn't stop them from just stp or pte your dude.

for a day or so I was playing with cards such as wasteland and man lands such as mishra's factory but i soon figured out that there were very few lands I actually wanted to blow up. and the factory was rarely activated because alot of the time you are trying to use your mana as efficiently as possible. plus I think that the more basics you can play the better especially in this meta.

[Drac]

I know it might not be possible for you're budget but if u run the hawk i think u should run atleast 2 jace TMS

Also i think dachmai is right about including moat's in the list

Not only is it a powerhouse it also solves the fundimental problem that making 1/1 flyers and equiping them is kinda slow for legacy.

[ivanpei]

I know it might not be possible for you're budget but if u run the hawk i think u should run atleast 2 jace TMS

Also i think dachmai is right about including moat's in the list

Not only is it a powerhouse it also solves the fundimental problem that making 1/1 flyers and equiping them is kinda slow for legacy.

Yes, 1/1 equips are very slow. You need some sort of speed bump. If you don't have moats, I recommend ensnaring Bridge. It's the same thing but not as good in the Force of will versions. I play a split of 1 bridge/ 1moat/ 2 Enlightened tutor. I don't play counterspells (play discard instead) so I empty my hand pretty quickly. Cheers.

[dahcmai]

Problem with Ensnaring Bridge is you typically have a hand full enough to discard each turn. I rarely dipped below 5 cards ever even against a really good aggro start. Hawks and B-storm just keep you going so well. I would say Crawlspace is oddly a choice. You only ever have 2 attackers at most and the whole point of that Moat when I put it in was to hold off Goblins and Merfolk who swarm like flies on umm...

[obituary 95]

what is the correct number of cards to pitch for force of will?

[lorddotm]

what is the correct number of cards to pitch for force of will?

I think 18 is the minimum that people usually play, I personally wouldn't go below 20, and usually be at around 22.

[Drac]

It depends abit on the amount of cmc 1 blue cantrip spells that u play. Because u still need to be able to FoW after cantripping abit in the first turns. Lorddotm seems kinda right. I would say 17-18 is the absolute minimum and 20+ is safe indeed.

[Hanni]

I'm suprised I've seen no mention so far of Scroll Rack.

[mistercakes]

nice catch on scroll rack. that seems super fun.

[dahcmai]

Hmmm, nice idea, I'll try one over a Ponder and see how it works.

[kiblast]

I think the Thopter package is really nice here, but I dislike it in multiple copies since post side people start bringing in Extirpates against it and I want to lose as less cards possible to Extirpate. Failing the Extirpate, removing only one card in the grave, is so good for the control player. So I'm trying Enlightened Tutors in maindeck /2-3x) as they can find Thopter Foundry (for the Sword we already have 4 Stoneforge) singleton Moat ( proxy for me, ty, or Ensnaring Bridge) each other equipment ( SoFaF and Jitte basically), Crucible, and other post side tech singletons. Even Scroll Rack becomes suddendly playable (as Id never play it in more than 2 slots, but tutorable singleton is ok).

[Jabari]

There are some things that could be changed around, but I think his approach is a step in the right direction. The more Landstill-ish your deck is, the less successful you will be.

I don't know which list to comment on but in relation to this analysis I think it would be beneficial to fit at least a 2 of Jotun Grunt in the MD.

It recycles dead hawks providing a steady stream of birds into play. It provides grave-hate against other decks, and it recycles lost swords to tutor up with excess SFM. Also it makes grave-hate slightly weaker against you as they have less opportunity to hit what you have in the GY.

I know it's a break from the 8-dork form but if a beatdown deck is being pursued I think Grunt would be a beast.

[Sigar]

Scroll Rack is not good enough. It's only reasonable if you fetched 3 hawks, and even then, paying 3 mana to put 2 back in the deck is not good enough, since you need a fetchland right away or 2 spare mana to play the 3rd hawk. Jace is a threat it self and doesn't need hawk to be good.

I think 1 Mistveil Plains belongs in the deck, since it allows you to put back equipment and hawks from your graveyard into your library without playing junk like Jotun Grunt, and can be fetched with Flooded Strand etc.

[ScatmanX]

No one wants to talk about the list that top 16ed the last SCG open?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37495

[zpikduM]

No one wants to talk about the list that top 16ed the last SCG open?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37495

Its not the same deck. That just looks like Death and Taxes + Hawks.

[ScatmanX]

Its not the same deck. That just looks like Death and Taxes + Hawks.
I thought that the Thread title was "Caw Blade in Legacy". Maybe that's not it then...

[zpikduM]

I thought that the Thread title was "Caw Blade in Legacy". Maybe that's not it then...

Just because a deck has both Hawks and Swords in it doesn't make it Cawblade.

[Hanni]

Scroll Rack is not good enough. It's only reasonable if you fetched 3 hawks, and even then, paying 3 mana to put 2 back in the deck is not good enough, since you need a fetchland right away or 2 spare mana to play the 3rd hawk. Jace is a threat it self and doesn't need hawk to be good.

I think 1 Mistveil Plains belongs in the deck, since it allows you to put back equipment and hawks from your graveyard into your library without playing junk like Jotun Grunt, and can be fetched with Flooded Strand etc.

Scroll Rack on its own is decent. It's similar to Sensei's Divining Top, albeit a bit worse, but it's absolutely amazing with Squadron Hawk. You don't need a fetchland with the Hawk either; you cast Hawk, tutoring for 3 more, activate Scroll Rack to put the 3 Hawk's back (plus whatever else). Once you topdeck and cast the next Hawk, you're getting a draw 2. While you're gaining all of this CA, you're also getting a 1/1 flying body each time. For a control deck, that's a solid CA engine that also leaves you with a win condition.

The way I see it, is that this deck looks more akin to remodeling a CounterTop Thopter shell than to becoming a new valid archetype. The card disadvantage that E Tutor causes is mitigated by the card advantage gain of Hawk + SFM, and allows you to lower the count of worthless excess Thopter Foundry's/etc. It also opens up the ability to run an artifact/enchantment toolbox, at which point a singleton Scroll Rack is by no means out of the question. If you have E Tutor and a Hawk in hand, you can Tutor up the Scroll Rack to turn that one Hawk into a mass of CA. If you have Hawk and no E Tutor, you can simply gain some CA (hopefully you have Brainstorm or Jace). If you have E Tutor and no Hawk, you can grab a Moat or a Thopter or whatever it is you need to help your situation.

Whether or not going that route is any good or not, I'm not quite sure. What I am sure of, is that Squadron Hawk by itself is a pretty lame card. No one cares about 1/1 fliers in Legacy, unless of course you are generating a buttload of them every turn with Thopter/Sword. Even 1/1 fliers with equips are relatively underpowered, especially when its such a mana intensive endeavor. If you cannot consistently abuse Squadron Hawk's CA aspect (by creating card quality from it + reusing it), it seems worthless to me. Scroll Rack does both; it turns the excess Hawk's into other spells, and allows you to cast the second Hawk for additional CA. Between Brainstorm, Jace, and E Tutor (w/ singleton Scroll Rack), that seems like a sufficient amount of resources to making Hawk worthwhile.

My 2 cents.

[dahcmai]

Well, the only reason it got the name Caw Blade is that it resembled the Standard deck so much in direct ports.

Jace, Hawks, Sword, and Mystics. Then it just got the conversion treatment for the rest to the better Legacy versions of the same cards. Tectonic Edge became Wasteland, Arid Mesas became Flooded Strand, Day of Judgment turned into Swords, Mana Leak turned to Force of Will, Spell Pierce to Counterspell and so on. Simple enough. Gideon was about the only one I couldn't find a good comparison to, but Moat serves the same purpose, keep creatures off you.

[nodahero]

One of the HUGE edges the deck has in standard is the comparatively low curve to other decks in the format. I don't know if that will port over very well.

Also Gideon serves a much more diverse purpose than "moating" for you. He also serves as an efficient removal spell when need be or an oops I win if your opponent plays poorly.

[Sigar]

Scroll Rack on its own is decent. It's similar to Sensei's Divining Top, albeit a bit worse, but it's absolutely amazing with Squadron Hawk. You don't need a fetchland with the Hawk either; you cast Hawk, tutoring for 3 more, activate Scroll Rack to put the 3 Hawk's back (plus whatever else). Once you topdeck and cast the next Hawk, you're getting a draw 2. While you're gaining all of this CA, you're also getting a 1/1 flying body each time. For a control deck, that's a solid CA engine that also leaves you with a win condition.


You need a fetchland to avoid drawing a hawk the next turn, which you obviously don't want to. Sensei's Divining Top is also a much better card than Scroll Rack, since you are able to see three cards at any time, even if you have zero, one or two cards in your hand.



If you have E Tutor and a Hawk in hand, you can Tutor up the Scroll Rack to turn that one Hawk into a mass of CA. If you have Hawk and no E Tutor, you can simply gain some CA (hopefully you have Brainstorm or Jace). If you have E Tutor and no Hawk, you can grab a Moat or a Thopter or whatever it is you need to help your situation.


Enlightened Tutor for Scroll Rack and then Squadron Hawk is such bad and clunky play, since you are spending 4WW, three cards and a draw step for a 1/1 flier and 3 random cards, with the next draw being a hawk. The play is not viable in any matchup due to the slowness and fairness of it, and if you are setting it up, you are winning already. The tutor should be able to grab a much better card in any match up.

[dahcmai]

One of the HUGE edges the deck has in standard is the comparatively low curve to other decks in the format. I don't know if that will port over very well.

Also Gideon serves a much more diverse purpose than "moating" for you. He also serves as an efficient removal spell when need be or an oops I win if your opponent plays poorly.

Heh, lucky for me it has a low curve here too. It ports obviously well. It's already paid for itself a few times.

Gideon almost got the nod. He's actually that good anyway. 5 mana is still a little too rough in my book though for something that doesn't totally kill everything on the table at once in Legacy.

[Drac]

I agree with the peoplethat say that scroll rack is not good enough:

Legacy is a fast format, you can get away with running 1/1 flyers that carry equipments and being slow because the rest of your deck is relevant at all times. Moat is a must in this deck. Hawks and brainstorm/Jace is a potent card advantage combo but fetching Scroll Rack with E. Tutor is just too slow and clunky, and the tutor should most of the times be used to get something that would destroy the opponent.

[nodahero]

@ dahcmai: I think you misunderstood my argument. I wasn't suggesting the curve of the deck is higher in legacy; rather I was suggesting that the curve of other decks in the format you are trying to use this are significantly lower than those featured in standard-> Thus the relative strength of the deck is diminished.

[LegacyInferno]

I wrote an article about two weeks ago on my blog concerning the addition of caw-blade in legacy. the funny thing was, 4 days afterwards there was an article on the same topic on star city games.

anyways here is my list that I built for blade.

4 Squadron Hawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Wrath Of God
4 Daze
4 Gideon Jura
1 Jace The Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Maze of Ith
3 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Tundra
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod’s Crypt

[nodahero]

Call me crazy... but 4 Gideon is overkill to the most extreme degree.... When was the last time you saw any legacy deck run 4 five drop spells that didnt cost 3UU...

[LegacyInferno]

Call me crazy... but 4 Gideon is overkill to the most extreme degree.... When was the last time you saw any legacy deck run 4 five drop spells that didnt cost 3UU...

not many I suppose,I Built in reflection of my legacy meta though, where CounterTop decks and zoo decks are really relevant, and take up a good precentage of the feild.

[Drac]

4 5 Drops and 5 4 drops and maze of ith... no acceleration and slow 1/1 flyers.. your entire deck is slow, i would seriously reconsider playing this in a legacy tournament.

[GGoober]

I agree with the peoplethat say that scroll rack is not good enough:

Legacy is a fast format, you can get away with running 1/1 flyers that carry equipments and being slow because the rest of your deck is relevant at all times. Moat is a must in this deck. Hawks and brainstorm/Jace is a potent card advantage combo but fetching Scroll Rack with E. Tutor is just too slow and clunky, and the tutor should most of the times be used to get something that would destroy the opponent.

When Land Tax is unbanned is this deck going to be outdated? CawRack is a mana intensive version of LandTaxRack, but CawRack can only make me imagine how retarded Land Tax + Scroll Rack will be when Land Tax is finally off the banned list.

[nodahero]

I would strongly suggest taking a leaf out of UW tempos book pertaining to its curve at least to some degree.

[LegacyInferno]

4 5 Drops and 5 4 drops and maze of ith... no acceleration and slow 1/1 flyers.. your entire deck is slow, i would seriously reconsider playing this in a legacy tournament.

lol, I would never play this in a legacy tournament.

I have better decks then ones i tinker around with and build for fun. this is the later in this case.

[zahori]

Here is my current decklist:

4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Island
1 Plains

4 Squadron Hawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of the Meek

1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Thopter Foundry

3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Daze

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wrath of God
1 Manriki-Gusari
3 Kataki, War's Wage

I have added a black splash for Vindicate because in my testing I kept having problems with resolved permanents. Vindicate is a great answer for all of the issues I have. I played it today in a daily, going 2-1 (First round bye).
The sideboard is constantly changing on what I perceive the MODO metagame to be. I also keep going from 3 to 4 Daze/FoW depending on how much combo I expect.

Just some food for thought.

[Woe]

Here is my current list I'm testing:

Here's my current list:
[10] (Creatures & Creature Generation)
3 stoneforge Mystic
4 spellstutter Sprite/Squadron Hawk
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
[3] (Business)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Thopter Foundry
[9] (Counter Package)
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
[6] (Removal Suite)
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Humility
1 Moat
[8 ] (Draw, Tutor)
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, TMS
2 Enlightened Tutor
Curve: 1=13, 2=12, 3=2,4=5, 5=4(FoW)

Land:24
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
1 Tolaria West
3 Tundra
3 Island
3 Plains
9 fetches

First, I understand the thread name is Caw Blade. I started with squadron hawk, stoneforge mystic and Blades. The swords got moved to the sideboard because they felt very situational compared to Jitte. I am also waiting on the Red/White sword for a main deck position, just to bypass removal. Squadron Hawk is perfectly fine but I'm currently supporting Spellstutter sprite as described below.

Second, I think the main issue with this deck that needs to be addressed is the fact that it plays quite differently in legacy. The goal of the standard/Extended version is T2 Stoneforge Mystic. Then to cheat in an equipment during their end step after your third land drop. Then Swing on T4 with mutavault/SFM/(Hawk if you played it on your third turn). That has almost never happened in my testing. I'm not saying that this situation is always the best play or that you will never connect with a sword that early. I just feel it is unlikely. The decks plays much slower and plays more like traditional Thopter/sword with different tutor options and viable jitte carriers.

Humility: SFM and Squadron Hawk are outclassed by the staple creatures of legacy. So Humility and moat felt like great options as far as equalizers. It also stops emrakul and progenitus for free via Show and Tell. Mishra's Factory's become giants under Humility. The more I play it, the more the deck feels like it's shifted from caw blade to Humility.dec

Squadron Hawk/Spellstutter Sprite: While Brainstorm/Hawk can lead to tons of card advantage I have been testing spellstutter sprite and prefer it. The reasons being the natural tempo generation of the card and flash is a big deal. This also puts my blue count up to 22 for FoW. Maybe I just need more blue in a different fashion. I'm open to suggestions.

Karakas: Nuts with Vendilion Clique, llawon in the board is cute with karakas too. I like karakas so much with these options I feel the Tolaria west is justified.

[LegacyInferno]

After originally coming up with my version of caw-blade in legacy, I came to realize just how weak it was after a month of play testing it. Albeit the post I made about in this thread has hardly been a month, I decided to revist my deck and rebuild it from the sort of the ground up after a month of goldfishing.

Caw-Blade 2.0

4 Squadron Hawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Swords to Plowsheres
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Maze of Ith
4 Flooded Strand
3 Plains
3 Island
4 Tundra
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
1 Wrath of God

I really thought about adding Moat and Humility to my deck, but two things prevented me from seriously adding it. 1) lack of owner ship and 2) the 4 drop curve.

I figured that within my own current meta having such a high curve would eliminate the potential this deck can do already, while I may be open to it later on depending on how testing with this goes. I think as is so far, It can operate fully without them. But as I said that may change depending on game testing.

[klaus]

Karakas: Nuts with Vendilion Clique, llawon in the board is cute with karakas too. I like karakas so much with these options I feel the Tolaria west is justified.

I doubt that those 2 cliques justify the inclusion of 2 non-basics that hardly ever have an impact. I'd prefer a sturdier mana base.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure Karakas will be the only land you'll ever tutor for with T. West, so why not make it Karakas #2 in the first place?

I have to admit though that Hawk felt pretty underpowered most of the time especially when drawing them early, which is why I'm rolling with Sprites myself.


Here's what I'd be going with atm:

CQ/CA:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth Knight's Errant
4 Brainstorm
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Thopter Foundry

DISRUPTION:
4 Force of Will
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

EQUIPMENT:
1 Umzawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of the Meek

MANA:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Mishra's Factrory
4 Tundra
4 Snow-covered Island
2 Snow-covered Plains
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

SB:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Meddling Mage
2 aura of silence
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
(I feel like the SB should include more creature hate, but what? - I guess one Meddling Mage cut be cut..)

[adamt]

apparently Edgar Flores played a similar list to what Sam started with at the Boston SCG legacy tournament but there aren't any decklists available as he didn't make top 16... anyone else see anything about it?

[Rock Lee]

apparently Edgar Flores played a similar list to what Sam started with at the Boston SCG legacy tournament but there aren't any decklists available as he didn't make top 16... anyone else see anything about it?

I played against Edgar Flores at SCG Boston with his list. It was round 8 in the X-2 bracket, with a single X-2 going to make it into top 8. I was playing Turbo-Eldrazi.

Game 1:
I force a turn 2 stoneforge mystic. He lets my forces on his mystics resolve and counters my exploration maps, which would have been an easy win for me. We are both in topdeck mode and he plants a jace that starts fatesealing me. He fateseals me upto 13 counters sealing away multiple All is Dusts, Brainstorms, Emrakul with me building mana all the while. On the final turn before Jace activation I draw Kozilek, which he lets through. Kozilek Draws me All is Dust, All is Dust, Force, Crop Rotation. I all is Dust his Jace, he forces I force back hardcast. He draws thopter foundry for turn and I draw a dead land. I cast all is dust, which he counterspells. I crop rotate for ugin and the win. He is obviously extremely irritated at my ripping an uncounterable 4 card draw into the win and mentions it while shuffling back up for game 2 about my "lucky rips." Initiate eyeroll - go.

Game 2:
I play 2x Cloudposts, 2x Expedition maps and he gets Stoneforge on Feast and Famine. I only cast 1 more spell 2 turns later and that's emrakul and he scoops it.

As an aside, I don't know if he is always like this but this guy was super cranky and cantankerous. He often implied that priority was passed through grunts and half nods and seemed overall extremely curt and angry. I'm not sure if this is a technique used in other formats for insinuating letting things resolve only to be able to manipulate the judges for your favor, but either his play was very sloppy or conniverous. I personally play at a very technical level at all times, which may irritate people who try to gain advantage through subterfuge. Perhaps because he tried to rules-lawyer me early in the match about me putting the cards back ontop for brainstorm mid-resolution being final and that I couldn't rearrange them before brainstorm hits the bin he was just overall upset. You don't normally get this kind of bullyish behavior in legacy even from the top end players, so I hope it was just a bad day for him.

As far as Caw Blade itself, I love the idea and think with more tweaks it has serious potential. I look forward to advancements that are made with it.

[ChrisElrod]

He is obviously extremely irritated at my ripping an uncounterable 4 card draw into the win and mentions it while shuffling back up for game 2 about my "lucky rips." Initiate eyeroll - go.

Ha ha. He is definitely not my favorite player. I played against him at the Dallas open, and he complained as well when I, finally, after drawing dead several turns in a row ripped a natural order.
I wasn't impressed by some of his plays either:
Him: go for the throat tarmogoyf.
Me: Tap mom, give it pro black.
Him: Oh. Pass.

I didn't find him quite as bad as you describe though.

[Nightmare]

Check out my list from SCGBoston, as well as in my article on channelfireball on Wednesday for some additional info on my take on CawBlade. It's a little different than what you're doing here, but it may give you some ideas.

[Link Ramirez]

Nightmare, I am currently testing your list on MTGO with small changes. In the sideboard I replaced the Meddling Mages with Cannonists.
In the maindeck I think about replacing the Ensnaring Bridge with an Oblivion Ring to have generic removal.

What is your opinion on this? Another question, what would you cut to move Humility to the maindeck?

[kiblast]

You might be interested in the list that an italian player ran at BOM going 7-1-1, and almost top 16ing with it.
(here (http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24065) you can read original thread on Tipo1.it if you understand a bit of italian)

Please note: this is not my list neither I am its player or deckbuilder. I'm just reporting since it's very unlikely that player frequent MtgTS.

Main

4 Squadron Hawk
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion clique
4 force of will
3 mental misstep
2 counterspell
4 brainstorm
3 jace
4 swords to plowshares
2 wrath of god
1 Sword FaF
1 Jitte
3 Sensei's divining top
3 counterbalance
4 tundra
2 tropical island
3 island
1 plains
4 flooded strand
4 fetch Ubased
1 karakas
2 mishra’s factory

Side

1 E tutor
1 energy flux
1 canonist
1 relic
1 tormod
1 P needle
1 EE
2 submerge
3 peacekeeper
2 krosan grip
1 nature’s claim

[adamt]

I just top 8'd a GP Prov Trial with a CawBlade list.
The last two trials around here had similar lists in the top 8 also.

The first trial 2 weeks ago that had 90 players, I had played NO Bant (a variation of AJ's list) and lost to U/W caw blade in the first round of top 8.

There was a Trial on Saturday that was won by a u/w/r SFM deck with red in it just for lavamancers/ fire/ice (which I lost to in the first round with Reid Dukes RUG NO deck). That list ran collars for the lavamancers and a batterskull which seemed kind of loose to me.

The list I ran on Sunday's GPT (36 players) was:

4 Squadron Hawk
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 brainstorm
4 jace TMS
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
3 Vendilion clique
3 mental misstep
2 spell pierce

2 path to exile
1 SOFI
1 Jitte
1SOBM

4 tundra
4 flooded strand
4 Wastland
3 Mishra's factory
3 island
1 plateau
1 volcanic island
1 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
1 plains

3 red elemental blast
2 enlightened tutor
2 pithing needle
2 hibernation
1 energy flux
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 arcane laboratory
1 engineered explosives
1 jitte
1 SOFF

I liked the deck, but feel like it just needs something else to put it over the top... the Hawks were alright and were mainly blockers to get to a sword or Jace. I really wish they could have been something else, perhaps Spellstutter sprites or something. I would love to have had a 4th V Clique as every time I had one they were amazing and carried a sword to victory. The format right now seems to have next to no flyers other than a tombstalker that will either get pathed/sworded or can't block bk of a sword.

The SOFF should have been main over the SOBM but the field was soooo filled with Blue decks that I felt they would be better against the goyfs and jaces. With the amount of white removal around I could easily have seen myself putting the SOWP or SOLS in the sideboard as the lifegain would have been nice in some matches.

I could have easily gone down to 3 jaces. 3 Missteps felt about right. The spell pierces could have easily been either Spell Snares or ponder/preordain. The 6 removal spells worked perfectly and honestly I wish I had 2 more in the s/b or wraths or something.

The red was there strictly for the REBs out of the board which were amazing all day long and worth the color splash. Missteps were everywhere. The e-tutor board worked great, fetching a s/b card in response to a hymn/thoughtsieze/discard spell. Energy flux and needles beat up on affinity and some odd white stax deck.

my matchups were:

r1 affinity w 1-0
r2 mono u faerie stompy/stax L 1-1 (turn 1 chalice of the void for 1 both games is hard to deal with and I didn't mull into FOW stupidly...grrr)
r3 merfolk w 2-1 (sofi runs the game)
r4 mono w stax w 3-1
r5 team italia L 3-2 (lost a close 3 game match to him top decking a figure of destiny and leveling it ALL the way up and putting a collar on it when I couldn't see a removal spell in 8 cards (brainstorm, fetch, brainstorm, 2 draws))
r6 u/w counterbalance (REB was so clutch here and a sword equiped hawk went the distance g3
top 8 r7 - BUG tempo (some still call it team america) lost a close 3 game match where he draws 2 goyfs and a terravore g3 and i just don't see a single piece or removal or card draw and all my hawks can't get a big enough backside to block a terravore even with a SOFF.

There are a few more tournaments coming up before the GP here in RI so I'll tinker with the list a bit more but may just go back to the NO Bant list I've played lately as it would have run over most of the field I saw the last two trials around here (but all it gains is missteps)

[pendeldaven]

Here's a list that I've been testing lately.
The basic concept is Caw-Blade with the Punishing Fire+Burnwillow combo, which in combination with Sword of Feast and Famine, does quite nicely. It's not all that difficult to take down a Tombstalker.
Aven Mimeomancer is another card that combos with Punishing Fire, makes my hawks 3/1, and makes my opponent's creatures trade for my hawks. But I'm kind of doubting its effectiveness, as it makes the deck seriously vulnerable against Engineered Plague: Bird.


// Lands
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Volcanic Island
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
2 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [ZEN] Mountain (1)
1 [ZEN] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
4 [M11] Squadron Hawk
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [ARB] Aven Mimeomancer

// Spells
4 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [MM] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
2 [NPH] Mental Misstep
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
1 [NPH] Sword of War and Peace
1 [NPH] Batterskull
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[perm]

I think mimeomancer is pretty genius with hawks and punishing fires, I wish you luck

[kiblast]

I had a little tournament yesterday with CawBlade, I won against Merfolk and Ant, draw against Landstill UWR, lost against some UWR homebrew fish deck and to UW Landstill.

First of all, I was impressed by how good our Merfolk mu is. Just stick a Jitte and win, even on a Stoneforge Mystic.
Ant is beatable if you run countertop ( I was). Vendilion shines in this mu, obviously.
Landstill UW-UWR is very hard to beat. Normally they don't play Top, so the plan should be to get a fast Top, and then outdraw them through Hawk/Brainstorm and land a turn 4 Jace. Their sweepers are so good against our little swarm. Post sb I sided Pithing Needle, Back to Basics, 2 Enlightened Tutors, Krosan Grip and Nature's Claim ( I was playing a very light G splash, my list was pretty similar to the one posted in #69) , siding out 2 WoG and 4 StP, or 2 WoG 2Stp 1 Misstep 1 Hawk if opponent was using Peacekeepers. I always underestimated Pithing Needle, but yesterday I sticked one turn 2 (after turn 1 eot Tutor), naming EE, and when next turn eot I landed Vendilion seeing double EE, I was like :D.
Anyway, their combination of EE+Shackles+ Elspeth and Mishra's Factory destroys our gameplan. That's why I'm thinking of adding a B splash instead of G, for Extirpates in sb (bye bye Factory recursion...), and adding a 2nd and maybe a 3rd Needle. When I casted first Needle naming EE, if only I had a 2nd one calling Shackles I would have won.

[Bignasty197]

I don't know if my list is "Caw Blade", but it plays similar so I'll share. It has been a blast to play.

4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thopter Foundry
3 Spell Snare
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Bitterblossom
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

Bitterblossom used to be Confidant but, surprisingly, he did not work out well. Having the black splash also allows for E Plague and Perish out of the board. I tried 3 Foundry but 4 seems like the right amount. I appreciate any comments/criticism.

[GexxX]

how about Cold-Eyed Selkie ?
He seems really good, since he's got natural evasion against blue decks. He's also a very nice draw engine with all the equipment in the deck. I guess it might be to slow, but then again squadron hawks seem kinda worse to me.

[adamt]

if you are running bitterblossom, SSS is 10x better than thopter/sword right now with EVERYONE wanting to run Misstep and Spell Snare

this list top 8'd a local 1k this past weekend... which is very similar to a list I'd been testing since my last GP Trial. 2 colors is def the way to go as Back to Basics (with an e-tutor s/b) is just NUTS right now vs the BUG decks. My list has 1 more Vendillion and 1 less Jace (with 2 Jace B in the s/b)

Jeff Pyka
UW Stoneforge

1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spellsnare
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Preordain

4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 4 Path to Exile
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spellsnare
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Hydroblast
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

[Bignasty197]

The main reason I put in ThopterSword was for life gain and the synergy with Feast and Famine. I suppose I could try it out with Spellstutters. The tempo boost seems like a good upgrade. Possibly some changes like this:

-4 Thopter Foundry, +4 SSS
-2 Sword of the meek, +1 Jitte, +1 Something else, a 4th Bitterblossom maybe.

@adamt
How is Batterskull working out? I considered it but it seemed clunky without Mystic.

[adamt]

So far so good. Aggro can't race it and it can be bounced. Running 24 land makes paying 5 if need be not unrealistic. I had jitte in that slot but a turn 3 4/4 life linker means most decks won't attack into it. Jitte takes up your 4th turn then needs to deal damage. Jitte may find a spot in the s/b as a counter to other jittes.

I've been testing the deck on mtgo with daze in the misstep slot (which sucks as the tempo loss hurts when u want to have 3 mana up on turn 3/4 to activate mutavault and use SSS to counter their 2 drops) and even then it's been a resilient deck except to big red and similar decks with few 1/2 drops

[Anusien]

What decks are Thopter Foundry actually good against? You probably can't block against Merfolk, Goblins isn't a deck, you can't block a Progenitus, it's too slow against combo.

Are the only decks it's even fine against Zoo, UW Standstill and Dredge? That seems awful narrow.

[Bignasty197]

What decks are Thopter Foundry actually good against? You probably can't block against Merfolk, Goblins isn't a deck, you can't block a Progenitus, it's too slow against combo.

Are the only decks it's even fine against Zoo, UW Standstill and Dredge? That seems awful narrow.

Thopters are mainly there for lifegain and to have additional Sword carriers. That being said, my metagame is extremely random. I always seem to get paired against a random Burn deck every week. Goblins are there, Merfolk not so much. Dredge is occasionally there. I was the only one that played NO Bant until recently. I see Junk and Aggro Elves some. Someone played that Team Italia list last week and thopters seem good against that. Nobody ever plays Counterbalance. There is always an Affinity guy and a Belcher guy there. One guy runs Deadguy. Like I said, extremely random.

[adamt]

burn decks can't beat an active Jitte or Batterskull.. trust me.

team italia rolls over to a deck with 4 missteps and 2/3/4 snares... i tested that matchup a bunch.

If you can fit even 1 Misdirection in your sideboard, its such a house against the hymn decks.

i keep flipping between running 2 crusaders or 2 submerges in my s/b and im leaning towards the submerges as they take care of tombstalkers and goyfs.... and the decks that play bob and tombstalker, well ill just submerge your tombstalker during your draw step and bob does 8 to ya.

[Bignasty197]

I admit that I have had limited testing with SSS, although they seem very strong in conjunction with Bitterblossom, equipment and the 3 Vendilion Cliques that I run. I will make the folowing changes:
-4 Thopter Foundry, +4 SSS
-2 Sword of the Meek, +1 Spell Snare, +1 Jitte/Batterskull

[adamt]

you guys should check out Kyle Boggemes article on Brainburst today about his stoneforge lists..

the bob list is sweet... essentially putting bobs in place of hawks/sss in the lists.

[beebles]

you guys should check out Kyle Boggemes article on Brainburst today about his stoneforge lists..

the bob list is sweet... essentially putting bobs in place of hawks/sss in the lists.

Hmmm. Don't know if this is the right place for it but I have been having a lot of success with this list. I am playing it at providence. I refuse to run squadron hawk because it is terrible. The counter magic numbers are weird but I have been tweaking and adding till I found what seems to work for me.

It is my conclusion that stoneforge and batterskull ar the best cards since Jace. So many games I win just ramming batterskull into opposing creatures, bouncing and replaying it. It is broken.

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Stoneforge
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Snare
2 Daze
2 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Jace

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plateau
12 Fetches
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Mountain


SB
must keep some secrets in case I do well.

[NilsH]

Hi,

First post on the Source. I've played competative in the eternal formats since 2000. I won Norwegian Nationals in 2006, but then took a break from magic until late 2008.

Anyways; I played CawBlade in a local Legacy tourny this weekend, and finished 1st.

Decklist:
// Lands
4 Tundra
3 [B] Island (2)
2 [B] Plains (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [M11] Squadron Hawk
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [LG] Moat
3 [NPH] Mental Misstep
2 [B] Counterspell
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [B] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [AQ] Energy Flux
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics

5 rounds of swiss and cut to top4.

Match 1:
Sneak Show (The opponent is one of the better players in my meta)
Game 1: He gets Sneak into play. I survive a hit from Emrakul, but he has another one for the next turn; so I die.

Board: In 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Aura of Silence, 1 ET. Out: 2 Moat, 3? StP and something else (SoFF or SFM).
Game 2: I counter his most relevant spells. An equiped Hawk eats up his lifetotal.
Game 3: He muligan to 5 on the play. I keep my 7 with only a Colonade as my blue source. He had a Blood Moon turn two of Mountain and Ancient Tomb. We FoW eachother's relevant spells. None of us draws an Island before time is called. Game ended draw, but I had a superior boardposition and more basics in my deck then he. I think I would have won given more time.

0-0-1

Match 2:
White Stax (The opponent is unknown to me)
Game 1: He starts of with Mox D + Tomb + 3Sphere. I waste his Tomb. He gets locked under his own 3Sphere while I continue to play lands. Clique kills him.

Board: In 2 Aura of Silence, 1 Energy Flux, 1 ET, x? Relic. Out: 3 MM, 2 Moat.
Game 2: I play lands each turn, and waste his Sol-Lands. Lots of permanents on my side help not to get locked under Tangle Wire.

1-0-1

Match 3:
Lands (Good player, heavily invested in the format)
Game 1: I try to put presure on him but he has multiple Mazes, so my swords don't get through. Afther he resolve Ensnaring Bridge my only win is to deck him, with or without Jace. His only win is Creeping Tar Pit. I land a Moat and Jace. I ramp Jace each turn, but he finds a EE. I can't keep it of the table as he has Academy Ruins. I scoop and we move to game 2.

Board: In 1 Back to Basics, 2 ET, 2 Relic, 2 Aura. Out: 1-2? Moat, 3 Hawks!, 2-3 StP.
Game 2: I land B2B while he is almost tapped out. He scoops to Jace.
Game 3: Almost equal to game 2, but I can't finish him before time is called. (Game 1 took too much time).

1-0-2

Match 4:
Crazy 4c UGwb Goodstuff: SnT - Emrakul - Temple Bell - Mind over Matter - Goyf - Pridemage and Counters. (Decent player, but his deck is all over the place. He told me he made it while he was drunk... :p )
Game 1: I win with lots of Hawks and equipments - CawBladeStyle!
Game 2: He has 3 Pridemage + Goyf + Jace. Moat can't save me.
Game 3: He muligan to 5. Clique takes it home.

2-0-2

Match 5:
Merfolk
Game 1: I keep a slow hand with Moat. He beats with 2 LoA. Turn 6 I play Moat - he FoW - I play Counterspell - He play SPierce - I play MM - He play MM - I lose... game 2.

Board: In StP and Shackles. Out: Jace and SoFF.
Game 2: I resolve a SFM for SoFI. SoFI wins the game.
Game 3: We waste each others lands, and none of us gets any threats. I resolve a SFM for SoFI at some point, and SoFI takes it home.

3-0-2

After 5 rounds I'm undefeated with 3 wins and 2 draws (11 points). I'm 2nd after the swiss, after a bit poor start.

Semis:
Thopters against one of the top control players at my shop
Game 1: I win the dieroll. I MM an ET on turn 1. He plays a CB, but has no Top. I land a Jace on my 4th turn. I fateseal to ramp Jace and to play around CB. I land an Elspeth a few turns later. I win shortly after.

Board: In: 2 Relic, 2 ET, 1 Energy Flux and 2 Aura. Out: 3 Moat, SoFF and 3 StP
Game 2: I have a Relic turn 1. I counter his relevant stuff for the next turns. We both has few cards; then I play a Hawk which gets 3 other Hawks. BS + fetch next turn puts me far ahead (I draw both Counterspell, SPierce and other goodies).

4-0-2

Final:
Sneak Show. Same guy as Match 1.
Game 1: I win the die roll. Have to mulligan a 1-land hand. Keep my next hand, though it's pretty bad with 2 SFM and 4 lands. He resolves a Sneak on his secound turn. Turn 3 he Sneak a Woodfall Primus into play which kill 2 of my lands. I'm to far behind, and die soon after.

Board: In 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Aura of Silence, 1 ET. Out: 2 Moat, 1 MM, SoFF, 1 SFM and Crucible. (I keep the StP to handle Primus this time).
Game 2: I play SFM for SoFI on turn 2. He plays a Burning Wish for SnT on his turn 2, but he miss one mana to play it. I play and resolve a Clique on my 3rd turn (Mainphase to minimise the chance of him having FoW). He reveals SnT, FoW, 3 nonblue-Fatties and a land; I take the SnT of course. (Playing the Clique Mainphase was the right choice :D). Next turn I vial in SoFI and attack fo 7 with Clique. He dies before he finds any answers.
Game 3: I have a SPierce for his turn 2 SnT. I play a SFM for SoFI on my turn 2. Turn 3 I play Hawk, getting 2 other Hawks to fill my hand. I keep 2 mana open at all time to MM/SPierce and Counterspell. One Hawk attacking for 5 each turn is a fast enought clock (and SoFI fuel me with counterspells). I win.

5-0-2

Overall I was really satisfied with the deck. Clique was really good a lot of times, so a 3rd one would be nice. Don't know what to change (if anything should be changed). I like the Hawks btw, just slowroll your BS. It doesn't matter wheter I kill with a 1/1 or a 5/5, once I have control of the game, the opponent is too far behind to get back. I have played Faeries and SSS before, and I wouldn't make the change in [B]this list.
Mental Misstep was included to avoid tempoloss to StP, Bolt etc in respons to equip. It also helps to hit SDT against CB, and improve my Storm-MU. Overall I liked them.

The SB was just a draft, and should be changed. I don't think both Canonist and Arcane Lab is needed. Not sure whether I prefer Shackles over other removal.

-NilsH

[dahcmai]

Well, it's time to dredge this up again since I've had plenty of tournaments and play testing now behind the helm of this one.

This deck is a flat beating. The last few tournaments we had in our area are now mirror matches for the finals.

Anyway, here's the last incarnation and I'll go through the changes and reasons behind them.


4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Side
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Firespout
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Divert
2 Submerge



Squadron Hawks were great, but the namesake is just not half as good as Vendillion Clique and that's all there was to it. Clique went in as a tester and slowly just took that spot over.

Magus of the Moon was a result of noticing other similar decks online. They were trying it out and doing well so I gave it a shot. Yeah, it's wonderful. It doesn't seem like you can get away with it, but you most definitely can and it's just devastating to anyone not playing mono-red. I even played it against a mon-r deck to turn off it's wastes and Mishra's once. Scary when it's even still decent against that. You always fetch up basics early on anyway unless you're color screwed so it was a natural fit. Surprised I didn't think of it first.

Stoneforge obviously is much better since Batterskull was made. He went up to 4.

Battleskull took the place of Moat. No real need for it when you can outclass aggro so hard. Stoneforge into Batterskull really is pretty dumb. Sounds so easy to deal with until you think about what kind of cards can back it up.

Sword of Feast and famine was good, but after trying out all the swords, Fire and ice won the top honors alongside Jitte. The lack of the moats were another reason that happened. feast and Famine is still going back and forth in the board fighting for that Sword of Body and Mind spot. Body and Mind is slowly winning since having that extra bear is really good when you run into Jace.

Lavamancer was a concession to Merfolk due to the Moat removal also. He's actually worked out quite well. Basilisk Collar in the board is for him. Makes Goyfs and Tombstalkers not too scary anymore.

Missteps weren't printed when I first was messing with this so they went in obviously.

Spell Snare goes with Misstep so well it ended up replacing the Paths.


Collonade eventually was cut to make room for the Magus and the CIPT thing was getting really annoying since the deck was getting more and more aggressive.



Divert is a tester that's working out well, but probably just due to the odd meta I have. Hymn is pretty popular so it seemed good. Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm might have that spot also. It also made Forge tender give up it's spot since Burn is pretty funny when you run these. Nothing like slamming a Fireblast back at someone for getting brave. If you don't run this card, you need the Sword of Light and Shadow back in. The life gain makes a huge difference since it's not hard to burn the sword holders (excepting Fire/Ice being already on) and you can die fairly easy to burn to the face.

Flusterstorm would have taken the Canonist's spot, but I kind of like the idea of making combo have to bounce through counters. That's rough. I played combo enough to know that's incredibly hard to do through Missteps (if it's chain) and Spell Snares for Echoing Truth. These can be cut if combo took a dive in your area though. It's about to come out of my board since it's non-existent anymore in mine.

Firestorm - Yet another concession to the lack of Moat. Replaced Wrath since it lets the Clique live. It's almost enough to make me want the Moats back having stuff like this, but I need to be able to make more flyers to run that. Elspeth and Clique alone can't do it. I tried.

I still miss the Seasinger, but I haven't had too much trouble out of that Sneak and Show deck around here. I think I keep getting lucky on it. She might get her spot back.



The only thing I don't like is the blue count again. It seems low and plays about what you'd expect. I hate how I keep running into that.


Anyway, I highly recommend trying this latest list out. It's sooo strong it seems unfair.



Goblins - Misstep, Spell Snare, Force, Batterskull, Lavamancer, and Swords practically ensures you win this. It's sad really.

Merfolk - see above. It's a little tougher, but not by much. Lavamancer is a wrecking ball. Magus even turns off the Mutavault.

Rock style decks - Divert is soo mean to them. Even their best draws start looking horrible against this deck.

Team America - Same as above except even worse. Just try it and see.


Landstill - This is one you really don't want to see. If they out counter you, you are in deep trouble. there's not much recovering if they drop a Jace. You have to win the Stoneforge fight. It's all about that and it's an all in type thing around 4-5th turn.

Lands - Surprisingly an odd fight. Jace is usually the way to win it. Fetch up basics and drop him as soon as you can. You absolutely have to remove the academy ruins or hit the oblivion stone with some grave hate if you don't see the Magus. Magus is obviously a blowout.

Burn - Laughable.

Combo - It's all about the opening draw of course. How good is theirs compared to yours. Seems pretty favorable though. Fast clock with counters usually is.

Sneak and Show - not so fun. I'd say this is the one to be scared of. Thoughtseizes backed up by Force and Pierces is not fun when they can dump something you can't kill out faster than Jace. Peacekeeper and Seasinger used to help in this so if it gets to prolific, They will go back in. Misstep helps a ton, but they can do the first turn blow out occasionally.

I haven't had much chance to play against a good Hive Mind player, but I think it's going to have the same problem as Sneak and Show. They can dump something off Show and Tell you just can't deal with quickly. I guess you could always start running Angel's Grace or something if you have them in your area.


All in all, I feel really good about just about every match up. Some are surprisingly good despite how it looks. Some are bad even though you feel like you should win them.

Considering I have seen plenty of other people starting to evolve into the same deck also, it's a pretty good choice right now. Might as well call it Stoneblade now. Bye Bye Squadron Hawk, you will be missed.

[Malakai]

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendillion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
3 Trinket Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Basilisk Collar

-----Sample Sideboard-----
4 Pyroblast
1 Vendillion Clique
2 Path to Exile
2 Misdirection
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Mirran Crusader


Philosophy-------
One of the most powerful tools of a control deck is the ability to quickly shift into an aggressive mode. Essentially, this allows “being aggressive” to act as another tool of control. Your opponent cannot try to get some hits in to whittle you down if doing so results in you untapping and killing them.

As a control deck, I don't want cards that do very little when the opponent is ahead of me. I went for consistency over explosiveness. Versatility over raw power. I'd much rather have cards that do something than cards that draw cards that do something.

Specific Card Choices----
4 Force of Will – Playing less than four copies of this card is wrong. Some decks have played three and been successful, but they are a lot more aggressive than this one.

4 Brainstorm – This is the best card in the format. Not close.

4 Grim Lavamancer – This is the second best card in Legacy. It's the best possible card against Merfolk, which is the most important matchup in the format. It's also amazing against: Affinity, Goblins, BW, GW, Elves. He's not bad against Bant, Stoneforge decks, Dark Confidant decks... He threatens to finish off Tarmogoyfs if they decide to block your Batterskull. He also shocks planeswalkers.

2 Counterspell – This card is actually here for the late game, designed to stop planeswalkers and the hail-Mary that is Natural Order, as well as being a catchall for any other shenanigans that the opponent might be up to.

2 Vendillion Clique – Clique is a house against combo and control. Clique is mediocre against aggro. Sometimes you have a Karakas in play and you get to live in Magical Christmas land.

1 Sword of Body and Mind – If you ignore the entire blue side of the card, you'll better understand why it's here. We get to attack into their Goyf/Knight, make a guy, then re-equip so that we can block said Goyf/Knight. SoFI would be better against Merfolk and Goblins, but we already have Lavamancer and Batterskul. SoFF also gives pro-green, but the sum of its other abilities is less significant than making a bear.

3 Trinket Mage, 1 EE, 1 Needle – Whenever I show people a list with Trinket Mage in it, they immediately dismiss the card. Don't. There is power in versatility. Most of the decks in the format have some manner of target that you'd love Pithing Needle, but one usually doesn't want to end up drawing two of the card. This solves that. Engineered Explosives is powerful both as a catch-all answer, and for its ability to generate card advantage, or to be a miniature Wrath. Plus, sometimes you have an Academy Ruins against the creature deck, and they just die. Furthermore, the fact that this deck runs equipment allows you to give the 2/2 body some teeth. [Also, little-known fact about playing against Lands.dec: they actually can't beat a Pithing Needle on Maze of Ith + guys.]

1 Sensei's Divining Top – This is an extremely powerful card. Before I decided to go the Trinket Mage route I had two of them in the deck, and I was never disappointed to draw it. It's power as an engine has fallen since Mental Misstep has made it less reliable, but it remains a powerful tool for nearly any deck. The fact that it can be tutored up with Trinket Mage when desired truly makes it worth including.

1 Basilisk Collar – This is me being cute, I won't deny that. It can be tutored up with both Trinket Mage and Stoneforge Mystic. It makes a Grim Lavamancer do truly, truly unfair things. It lets you trade any one of their creatures for any of theirs if you can manage to get them to hit each other. That said, the card is relatively untested, although I have played it in other decks in the past and not been entirely disappointed. I recommend trying it before cutting it.

0 Wasteland – Wasteland is easily in the top 5 best cards in the format. Everyone should have a good reason for not running it, and everyone should have a good plan for beating decks that are. I have the same reason for both: I refuse to lose to my mana. There are similar lists to mine running around with 4 Wastelands, and to me this just seems wrong. Each turn I want to have white for my Mystic, red for my Lavamancer, plus I want to be able to cast Clique/Counterspell/Force, AND I want to be able to reset my Batterskulls. The cost of running this card is simply too high. Yes, if you have it you will get some free wins off it, but I do not believe those free wins will outweigh the times you lose from either being mana-screwed, or having to waste a Brainstorm on finding lands instead of lining up your most effective spells.

0 Mishra's Factory – Omitted more or less for the same reason as Wasteland.

0 Standstill – I used to play a lot of Merfolk with Standstill. I can't recall a single game where I resolved a Standstill then lost. However, I can recall many games where I looked at the Standstill in my hand and frowned. One of the problems I have seen with the lists that are running Standstill is they really don't have anything to draw into. They play the Standstill, draw some cards, but with all of that effort they've not gotten further ahead on the exchange than if they'd just played a card that had a real impact on the game.

0 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor – In Legacy, what Jace is the best at is being a win condition for decks that lack more robust options. If you are trying to cast Moat/Humility/Ensnaring-Bridge, creature-based win-conditions look silly, and Jace becomes the best option. That simply isn't something this deck wants or needs. Keeping the curve low so as to be immune to Wasteland was another consideration for not including him. To me, the card feels like most of the time it is just win-more in a deck with other win-cons. In fact, the biggest reason I could come up with for including He Who Broke Standard was to beat other Jaces. Then I remembered that I already had Grim Lavamancer, Vendillion Clique, Stoneforge, Pithing Needle, and Engineered Explosives to kill him.

[bruizar]

uhm..

cawblade without caws isn´t cawblade.

Edit:
Without Jace its even more distant to cawblade. Perhaps you should open a new topic.

[bruizar]

.

[dahcmai]

Let me get in some more testing against a few other decks like No Bant and those types and I'll just write up a primer for it. It's seriously worth playing right now.

[Kich867]

Let me get in some more testing against a few other decks like No Bant and those types and I'll just write up a primer for it. It's seriously worth playing right now.

This deck seems pretty close to what I wanted to do for a U/W aggro-control deck. I don't particularly like the red splash and would be willing to take the drawbacks that entails, I posted my U/W list and then like, as I refreshed the page this popped up right below it, feel bad for wasting forum space T_T;;.

Here's my list though:



//Creatures: 10
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Mirran Crusader
4x Stoneforge Mystic

//Hand stuff: 4
4x Brainstorm

//Removal: 4
4x Swords to Plowshares

//Counters: 11
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
4x Mental Misstep

//Board wipe: 1
1x Wrath of God

//Equips: 3
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

//Planeswalkers: 5
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands: 22
2x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Kor Haven
6x Island
5x Plains

//Sideboard: 15
3x Peacekeeper
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Energy Flux
1x Meddling Mage
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Wrath of God

This list obviously leans towards control moreso than aggression.

[Bignasty197]

Nowadays, I think you have to play Batterskull. I would cut an Elspeth for one. I also have no idea why you aren't playing Swords to Plowshares. Cut the Ponders for a set.

[Kich867]

Nowadays, I think you have to play Batterskull. I would cut an Elspeth for one. I also have no idea why you aren't playing Swords to Plowshares. Cut the Ponders for a set.

Revised.

[Bignasty197]

Now that I think about it, I may want another Swords effect. Possibly cut either SoFI or SoFF for a Path to Exile. In this meta, I think more removal is necessary.

[dahcmai]

Now you know why I am so fond of the red splash. Sowrds wasn't cutting it. Path was added and went up to 2. I didn't like that much since it became crap against a control deck so I shifted to red to get Lavamancers. Lavamancer also makes sure you don't lose to things like Goblins, Merfolk, and the like. Being able to play Magus to smash Lands and heavy non-basic land decks like Bant was just gravy.

[bradstone]

It doesn't seem like any of these lists are running Ancestral Vision. I was under the impression that this is the draw engine stoneforge decks wanted.

[TkDodo]

Let me get in some more testing against a few other decks like No Bant and those types and I'll just write up a primer for it. It's seriously worth playing right now.

I can’t wait to read a primer on this. After reading the last couple of posts, I decided to try the deck myself, and I really like it. I think the Uwr version deserves it's own thread.
I love the red splash, since Lavamancer eats fish all day, and red offers great SB options. I don’t quite know about the moon effects though. I think they are most effective on turn 1 or 2, when the opponent can’t have basics set up. Good opponents will know how to play around a moon on turn 3 by having a fetch open and going for a basic to just play on or kill the moon. It just doesn’t sound that great on turn 3 compared to the strong turn 1 play from e.g. Dragonstompy. Also, for Clique and Jace, we want UU, so we actually have to have UUW and a red source up before we drop the moon. That just seems like it’s too late to have a great impact on the game (except for TA, which doesn’t play basics at all).

Here is the list I’m currently testing:


4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

2 Ponder

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oblivion Ring

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

2 Jace, the Mind Scultptor

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas


The ponders are more or less flex slots. I tried 2 EE and 1 Academy Ruins, but I never felt that I needed a sweeper that much. Maybe just 9 creatures are not enough to carry the equipments. I find myself going for Batterskull most of the time though.
I also like the idea of playing with an additional Trinket Mage package. I’ve played with Trinket Mages for quite some time, and they are rarely dead. If you don’t need any particular artefact, you just grab SD.Top and gain a huge advantage in the mid- to late game. I just can't find room to fit it in.

I don’t agree on playing zero Jace though. The deck has no actual draw engine, so Jace should fit that role. He is just too good to not play him.

What do you guys think about Ancestral Vision in this deck? I haven’t tested it so far.

[dahcmai]

Not really needed from what I could tell. The game is so decided in the early turns anyway. I have the Lavamancers and Snares so they usually like to be first anyway and Jace pulls up the rear, but it's usually over by then. Jace needs to be a 2-3 of at minimum. He is the back up. He's easy enough to find as a two of, but someone people like 3.

The Magus is one of those things you just have to try. It sounds like crap on paper. Turn 3? Bah. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It has so many accidental benefits though. You tend to search up your basics early anyway so he's not going to hurt you. He just flat owns the decks that are a pain to kill like Lands and is a huge advantage against the meaner Landstill variants like BUG. They can't let you have him or they flat lose on the spot. It's the slower decks you seem to want him for anyway so it works. You're not going to keep him vs Zoo anyway, too fragile.

I'm leaning toward a couple of peacekeepers in the board just for Show and Tell type stuff. It's such a pain how fast those decks go and they can get turn 2 S&T with a Force, Misstep back up so easily. So I wanted something to drop. Seasinger doesn't work on Projo so I settled on Peacekeeper. you can always win with Lavamancers and Jace later.

Oh yes, if you end up hitting the mirror a lot like what my meta is quickly turning into, try out Orim's Thunder. It's hot tech for Stoneforge and his equipment he got.

[hyc8028]

A primer would be nice. This deck is everywhere and yet there is no primer about Stoneblade on The Source.

[dahcmai]

Working on it, but I want a ton more games in against just about everything so I don't sound like a tard trying to explain a match up I didn't test much. It just takes me a while since I only tend to test against people who know the deck they are playing very well. It helps especially with the Landstill, Bant, or Goblins players. Only a really good player gives you a good indicator of what you can expect.


Edit: screw it. I posted what I have. I'll fill it in as I go.