[SPOILERS] New Phyrexia

[Richard Cheese]

So if your opponent drops Emrakul via SnT on their turn, then on your turn you cast Metamorph, will you get to take the extra turn?

[Koby]

So if your opponent drops Emrakul via SnT on their turn, then on your turn you cast Metamorph, will you get to take the extra turn?

No, because Emrakul's extra-turn trigger only applies when the card "Emrakul, the Aeons Torn" is cast and put onto the stack. Metamorph will still be "Phyrexian Metamorph" when on the stack, then enter the battlefield as a copy of Emrakul.

[Nicol Bolas]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=117417&d=1303185738

Seems interesting. Worst-case scenario would be copying Goyfs/Knights.

Is it confirmed that this is the pre-release card? Wow, I'm excited.

[Barook]

Is it confirmed that this is the pre-release card? Wow, I'm excited.
Launch party foil, not pre-release.

[Koby]

Not sure if this has any bearing, but SCG just increased the price on Phyrexian Metamorph presale from $1.99 to $3.95. It might be more hype than anything, but just does to show you how much potential this card has for Legacy.

[Ziveeman]

Anyone see the new Spell Snare?

Mental Misstep
{PU}
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.

Looks like Counterbalance is back, with a way to stop Vial on the draw with no card disadvantage from Force.

EDIT: Also, Torpor Orb: 2

Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.

Someone mentioned Dreadnought, which is pretty insane, as well as stopping Ringleader, Trinket Mage, Matron, Stoneforge Mystic, Aluren, etc etc etc.....

[GGoober]

Anyone see the new Spell Snare?

Mental Misstep
{PU}
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.

Looks like Counterbalance is back, with a way to stop Vial on the draw with no card disadvantage from Force.

EDIT: Also, Torpor Orb: 2

Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.

Someone mentioned Dreadnought, which is pretty insane, as well as stopping Ringleader, Trinket Mage, Matron, Stoneforge Mystic, Aluren, etc etc etc.....


Mental Misstep
{PU}
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.

I don't even know what to think about this card O_O The very thought on raping Merfolks by countering Vial without any mana on the play or on the Draw makes me insanely happy. At the same time, the deck is so stupid retarded that you shouldn't even try to fight it with a control deck

/rant.

This does gives a good solution for decks that are weak against 1cmc spells such as Vial/Top. In particular, I'm thinking Tempo Thresh is particularly vulnerable to decks playing with Vial and Top since they no longer get much tempo when Vial/Top resolves.

@Torpor Orb:

Another big fucking O_O This set is looking very eternal oriented for 30 cards spoiled so far.



EDIT: Anyone see the trend in:
Mental Misstep
{PU}
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.

Surgical Extraction
{PB}
Extirpate without split-second

being a cycle of powerful eternal 1cmc spells at reduced/phyrexian costs and being slightly weaker? I think this is a potential given two spoiled cards.

Not sure what a green, red, white version would be though.

{GP}
Giant Growth = fail

{WP}
Path to Exile with some drawbacks = probably too powerful

{RP}
Shock = a little weak.

[wcm8]

Goblins/Merfolk aren't that tough to beat when they can't cheat dudes into play. This card is going to become a format staple.

[vikram]

1. Goyf Wars don't exist anymore. In a year, neither will Tarmogoyf.

With powercreep the way it is. I expect a vanilla 4/5 for 2 to be pretty meh in a few years. But just in an year is probably pushing it.

[death]

Aside from those mentioned, the new 'orb' seems to put a stop to Iona, Angel of Despair, Flame-Kin Zealot, Ancestor's Chosen, Terastodon, Eldrazi, and even Painter shenanigans.


Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger

[Infinitium]

Mental misstep actually looks bonkers for tempo decks; stopping Vial, SDT, cantrips, swords and Nacatl without spending mana for it are all most excellent plays indeed.

[Ziveeman]

It doesn't stop Iona, Eldrazi or Painter, as Iona/Painter aren't triggered abilities, and Eldrazi are upon casting, not entering the battlefield.

[Zlatzman]

Aside from those mentioned, the new 'orb' seems to put a stop to Iona, Angel of Despair, Flame-Kin Zealot, Ancestor's Chosen, Terastodon, Eldrazi, and even Painter shenanigans.
Both Iona and Painter have "as ~ enters the battlefield"-effects and would not be affected by Torpor Orb. Valid for the other though.

edited: missed the Eldrazi :(

[death]

So it doesn't stop "As~" effects. This card is not cool.

[AngryTroll]

Wow, there are about a million good one mana black discard spells now:
Thoughtseize
Inquisition of Kozilek
Duress
Cabal Therapy
and now Despise: a Duress for creatures and Planeswalkers.

Wizards has also printed a handful of amazing 1cc counterspells lately:
Spell Snare
Spell Pierce
Dispel
Steel Sabotage
and now Mental Misstep {P/U} Counter target 1cc spell.

Of course, there's still the old-but-still-worth-considering 1cc counterspells:
Disrupt
Annul
Envelop
Force Spike (Although I can't imagine running Force Spike with all of these other options)

Pretty awesome.

[Barook]

We were waiting months for it, yet no discussion about it?

Sword of War and Peace :3:
Artifact - Equipment (M)
Equipped creature gets +2/+2 and has protection from red and from white.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, Sword of War and Peace deals damage to that player equal to the number of cards in his or her hand and you gain 1 life for each card in your hand.
Equip :2:

Kinda disappointing that it doesn't generate card advantage. And the triggers are way too conditional.

Batterskull :5:
Artifact - Equipment (M)
Living weapon
Equipped creature gets +4/+4 and has vigilance and lifelink.
:3:: Return Batterskull to its owner's hand.
Equip :5:

Pretty decent with Stoneforge Mystic.

Beast Within :2::g:
Instant (U)
Destroy target permanent. Its controller puts a 3/3 green Beast creature token onto the battlefield.

Green removal.

Torpor Orb seems kinda interesting as well.

Edit:
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur :8::u::u:
Legendary Creature - Praetor (M)
Flash
At the beginning of your end step, draw seven cards.
Each opponent's maximum hand size is reduced by seven.
5/4

Could be very brutal when played early enough. Although it seems questionable if it's better than the other fat you must cheat into play.

[kiblast]

So it doesn't stop "As~" effects. This card is not cool.

It is also a permanent Stifle on Dreadnought... cool.

[AngryTroll]

It is also a permanent Stifle on Dreadnought... cool.

Right, but Stifle is pretty good and extremely versatile even without a Dreadnought in play, and Trinket Mage loves coming into play. It's cool, but Illusionary Mask doesn't see play in Dreadstill, so I don't think this will either (even though it's one mana cheaper than Mask + Nought).

[(nameless one)]

I don't thing Despise will see legacy play. I mean Ostracize has been around for a long time but you don't see people using it. Standard on the other hand...

[Digital Devil]

There's a link on MTG Salvation which leads to an instant-download of a .pdf file of the entire set. Fake?

[Koby]

RE: Sword of War & Peace

If this is the final wording, this sword is very very lame. Conditional effects on a Mythic rare. pfffffffffffft WEAKSAUCE.

[Stall_19]

There's a link on MTG Salvation which leads to an instant-download of a .pdf file of the entire set. Fake?

Downloading it now, but if you believe that the cards spoiled today are real then I'm inclined to believe this is real but we'll see.

[death]

I don't believe some card names are real, but the effects seem to be real.

[Arsenal]

For Legacy purposes, the new Sword is lame. For Standard purposes, it is reasonable. The trigger can help kill of planeswalkers (swing at the opponent, use the damage from the trigger to kill of opponent's Jace) and UW Cawblade will welcome a maindeck way to get out of RDW's burn range other than Sylvok Lifestaff. Plus, Pro White and Red in Standard is essentially Protection from Standard format, so...

[Koby]

RE: Sword of War & Peace

Conditional effects on a Mythic rare.

*shrug*

[Richard Cheese]

Does Torpor Orb make hunted horror playable?

[(nameless one)]

Said link - password is "Magic"

I don't think it's fake. Taking a closer look on it now.

Your link isn't working.

[Infinitium]

Edit: This is by far the strongest set at a glance I've ever seen. Phyrexian mana is stupid good. Also color pie; who needs it? Really?


Gitaxian Probe - P(U)
Sorcery
Look at target players hand.
Draw a card

This.. looks very, very solid in balls -> walls combo.


Tezzeret's Gambit - 3P(U)
Sorcery
Draw 2 cards, then proliferate.

Colorless card draw?


Dismember - 1PP(B)
Instant
Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.

Colorless removal?


Furnace Scamp - R
Creature - Beast
Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, you may sacrifice it. If you do, ~ deals 3 damage to that player.

Hello Sligh.

[death]

Does Torpor Orb make hunted horror playable?

In kitchen tables yes, among other stuff.

[death]

This.. looks very, very solid in balls -> walls combo.

No, it can't stop an opponent from interacting.

[Richard Cheese]

In kitchen tables yes, among other stuff.

I have no idea what that means.

[Rizso]

With the new sword vs the cawblade mirror its fully possible to win on turn 5 on the play. With a t2 Stoneforge. t3 stoneforge to put sword into play t4 attack for 3 + 7 cards in hand. 10 damage total.

[Barook]

Finished looking through it. Tons of jank and/or recycled cards with crappy gimmicks, but also some stuff not already mentioned worth looking:

Porcelain Legionnaire 2http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/pmanaw.gif
Artifact Creature - Soldier
First Strike
3/1

Seems excellent with Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors.

Geth's Verdict :b::b:
Instant
Target player sacrifices a creature and loses 1 life.

Priest of Urabrask :2::r:
Creature - Human Cleric
When Priest of Urabrask enters the battlefield, add RRR to your manapool.
2/1

Red Priest of Gix

Glistener Elf :g:
Creature - Elf
Infect
1/1

Infect Pump is going to love this.

Myr Superion :2:
Artifact Creature - Myr
Spend only mana produced by creatures to cast Myr Superion
5/6

Good with Vial, probably too janky for the rest.


Your link isn't working.
Complete Spoiler (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=317624)

[TsumiBand]

That Sword looks like poop. That sort of makes me think it's not even real, since it would be the only Sword to not generate card advantage in some way (unless you're constantly shooting planeswalkers with it).

In fact all those images look like poop. This just looks like shitty fakery to me.

[Rizso]

@ Myr Superion: Lucky you can use man lands to cast it then :D

@Sword its effect its really strong. Very aggressive in the early game fits perfect for the red and white color. Very reasonable for it to smash for 4-7 per trigger vs Control Decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

That Sword looks like poop. That sort of makes me think it's not even real, since it would be the only Sword to not generate card advantage in some way (unless you're constantly shooting planeswalkers with it).

In fact all those images look like poop. This just looks like shitty fakery to me.
The quality of these images is consistent with .pdf file spoilers released in the past through various websites, though the only one I remember off the top of my head is WotC Customer Service.

Assuming these cards are real (and they almost certainly are), this set looks very, very awesome. There's a lot to take in.

[Ziveeman]

That Sword looks like poop. That sort of makes me think it's not even real, since it would be the only Sword to not generate card advantage in some way (unless you're constantly shooting planeswalkers with it).

In fact all those images look like poop. This just looks like shitty fakery to me.

The images look like that because it's a PDF file (and because the images provided in the OP are JPG, and JPGs produce artifacts).

[Barook]

This might be interesting as well:

Mindcrank :2:
Artifact
Whenever an opponent loses life, that player puts that many cards for the top of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

All you need now is a way to power up Bloodchief Ascension fast and your opponent is pretty much boned.

[Infinitium]

No, it can't stop an opponent from interacting.

Nope, but it does give you information whether the opponent is holding answers or not whilst thinning your deck (and muddling your mulligan decision, granted), something which Street Wraith never did. Also it plays well with Cabal Therapy in SI for what it's worth.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Mental Misstep doesn't seem like it will see a lot of maindeck play; but I expect it to get a lot of traction in the sideboard of non-blue decks looking for a way to hose a wide range of combo decks.

[Barook]

Mental Misstep doesn't seem like it will see a lot of maindeck play; but I expect it to get a lot of traction in the sideboard of non-blue decks looking for a way to hose a wide range of combo decks.
Aside from hosing combo, it's also a way for non-blue decks to counter StP/PtE. That might become relevant.

[4eak]

Gitaxian Probe (P or :u:; Look at target player's hand. Draw a card) is Street Wraith 5-8. Easier to counter, but it lets you Peek. And, you can hardcast if you have the mana. I highly doubt it will ever see play, but it is a cool card nonetheless.



peace,
4eak

[markbris]

I can't get the magic pw to work.

[4eak]

The password is "Magic"

Melira, Sylvok Outcast (:1::g:; Legendary Creature - Human Scout - You can't get poison counters. Creatures you control can't have -1/-1 counters placed on them. Creatures your opponents control lose infect.) is pretty sweet as well. It has some very unique effects at such a low cost.


peace,
4eak

[Koby]

This might be interesting as well:

Mindcrank :2:
Artifact
Whenever an opponent loses life, that player puts that many cards for the top of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

All you need now is a way to power up Bloodchief Ascension fast and your opponent is pretty much boned.

BRightning?

[Aggro_zombies]

Nope, but it does give you information whether the opponent is holding answers or not whilst thinning your deck (and muddling your mulligan decision, granted), something which Street Wraith never did. Also it plays well with Cabal Therapy in SI for what it's worth.
The important part is that it also counts as a spell, whereas cycling Street Wraith did not. If you're aiming to make lots of Goblins on turn one, it helps to lead off with a Peek ("Oh, sweet, no Force") and then let the contents of the Warrens start pouring out.

[Hanni]

Yea, Gitaxian Probe is absolute amazing for Belcher.

And Mental Misstep is also bonkers. A FoW that costs 1 more life, no card disdvantage, and hits 1cc spells (arguably the most dominant cc range in the game)? I can see alot of tempo decks abusing this one, as well as non-blue aggro decks looking for a free speed bump against combo. Although I'd argue whether it would see more play in non-blue vs combo than Mindbreak Trap.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The password is "Magic"

Alternately:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=317624

[GGoober]

Mental Misstep doesn't seem like it will see a lot of maindeck play; but I expect it to get a lot of traction in the sideboard of non-blue decks looking for a way to hose a wide range of combo decks.

I highly doubt so. I think this is another 'hard' counter that Tempo decks could use. Countering a 1cmc spell for free is argubly stronger than Daze. I think Misstep is definitely a narrow card that only tempo decks would be playing it. We'll see how it goes in the future.

[Barook]

I just noticed that Melira allows creatures with Persist (e.g. Kitchen Finks) to go infinite. Or can't they return?

If it works, what's the best way to abuse this? Goblin Bombardment? Carrion Feeder?

[Sammich]

I just noticed that Melira allows creatures with Persist (e.g. Kitchen Finks) to go infinite. Or can't they return?

If it works, what's the best way to abuse this? Goblin Bombardment? Carrion Feeder?

Persist says it comes into play with a -1/-1 so according to the game the counter is never actually put on it.

[Maëlig]

Mental misstep is an automatic 4-of in merfolk imo. Now people will stop wondering what to put in the flex slots.

[Clark Kant]

I'm already playing 4 Mental Mistep in the board of my infect deck. Stops StP/Path/Bolt/Nacatl/Combo/Innocent Blood and discard etc.

Same thing with that free cantrip that tells me when I can combo and when my opponents have removal.

[blaat]

I just noticed that Melira allows creatures with Persist (e.g. Kitchen Finks) to go infinite. Or can't they return?

If it works, what's the best way to abuse this? Goblin Bombardment? Carrion Feeder?

Seems that works just fine with any sac outlet.
infinite redcaps :)

[bakofried]

Instant speed vindicate in green with a minimal drawback? Holy fuckballs, I'm terrified and amazed at the same time.

[Barook]

Seems that works just fine with any sac outlet.
infinite redcaps :)
Redcaps work with any infinite sac outlet, but 4 mana is alot.

Edit: Altar of Dementia + Melira + Safehold Elite is a potential T2 kill with enough accelerants.

[Tacosnape]

Mental Misstep is absolutely stupid. Like oh my god format redefining so stupid. Every aggro deck in the format should and will run this card, because it does a better job at solving aggro's number one problem than any card before it: Losing the die roll.

Plus, it makes a lot of deck's victory paths not work as well. For example:

Rock wins a ton of games off Thoughtseize, Take your Removal, Confidant. Now Mental Misstep prevents turn one Seize, Duress, Etc.

Dredge has to watch out, as this counters Putrid Imp, Careful Study, Breakthrough at 0, Tireless Tribe, and self-targeting Therapies, which can cause huge tempo problems.

Any deck relying on Sensei's Divining Top? Now every deck can have a solid answer for the Top.

Relying on that dig cantrip to get you there? Scarier move.

The hilarious part of Mental Misstep is the number of Misstep-versus-Misstep counterwars it's going to cause.

[bakofried]

Aw man, I'm just wondering where this sets going to go. But seriously, am I the only one nutting myself over the instant speed vindicate in green?

[LostButSeeking]

Mental Misstep is absolutely stupid. Like oh my god format redefining so stupid. Every aggro deck in the format should and will run this card, because it does a better job at solving aggro's number one problem than any card before it: Losing the die roll.

Plus, it makes a lot of deck's victory paths not work as well. For example:

Rock wins a ton of games off Thoughtseize, Take your Removal, Confidant. Now Mental Misstep prevents turn one Seize, Duress, Etc.

Dredge has to watch out, as this counters Putrid Imp, Careful Study, Breakthrough at 0, Tireless Tribe, and self-targeting Therapies, which can cause huge tempo problems.

Any deck relying on Sensei's Divining Top? Now every deck can have a solid answer for the Top.

Relying on that dig cantrip to get you there? Scarier move.

The hilarious part of Mental Misstep is the number of Misstep-versus-Misstep counterwars it's going to cause.

Not to mention how badly it can mess up Aether vial decks, Goblin Lackey, dark ritual, rite of flame, swords to plowshares, stifle, wild nacatl, high tide . . .

[markbris]

Not to mention how badly it can mess up Aether vial decks, Goblin Lackey, dark ritual, rite of flame, swords to plowshares, stifle, wild nacatl, high tide . . .

Seems pretty friggin great for counterbalance and merfolk cuz you can counter aether vial and lackey no problem with no card disadvantage.

[Sammich]

Seems that works just fine with any sac outlet.
infinite redcaps :)


Redcaps work with any infinite sac outlet, but 4 mana is alot.

Edit: Altar of Dementia + Melira + Safehold Elite is a potential T2 kill with enough accelerants.

Wrong, the counter is never put on the creature, it comes into play with it already on.

[Tammit67]

And here I thought they were going to be careful with paying life. Fuck

[Hanni]

Mental Misstep is absolutely stupid. Like oh my god format redefining so stupid.

I'd argue that countering 1cc spells in Legacy is as important as countering 2cc spells, except Spell Snare costs 1 mana and this thing is FREE. Yea, I'd say this is going to redefine the format. Think Tarmogoyf circa 2008.

[Barook]

Rock wins a ton of games off Thoughtseize, Take your Removal, Confidant. Now Mental Misstep prevents turn one Seize, Duress, Etc.
Good thing you can now use your own Mental Missstep to protect your Confidant. But I agree that this thing is extremely stupid.

Phyrexian Obliterator also seems hilarious now as StP is pretty much one of the very few things that can actually touch it. But now you can deal with it via discard and a potential free counter.

[markbris]

I'd argue that countering 1cc spells in Legacy is as important as countering 2cc spells, except Spell Snare costs 1 mana and this thing is FREE. Yea, I'd say this is going to redefine the format. Think Tarmogoyf circa 2008.

I'm starting to hope this thing is fake.

edit: Like its going to get pretty dumb if all the tempo/aggro/control decks start running it.

[Barook]

edit: Like its going to get pretty dumb if all the tempo/aggro/control decks start running it.
1cc cards might get a bit less relevant. Or Stompy decks having a good time while setting their Chalice to 1 and receiving new toys in this set.

[Greenpoe]

Tezzeret's Gambit (3P(U) Sorcery Draw 2 cards, then proliferate.) helps decks that desperately wanted some draw, like Dragon stompy and Staxx. Proliferate goes well with Chalice and Smokestack. D-stompy can use proliferate for a bunch of cards, like Jitte, Koth, Lord of Skullshatter pass, Taurean Mauler and Ratchet Bomb. Plus, proliferate can randomly be good against things like Jotun Grunt, Kitchen Finks, or screwing with an opponent's Vial by putting too many counters on it.

[4eak]

I'm glad Phyrexian Mana symbols have turned out to be so cool.

Phyrexian Unlife + Melira, Sylvok Outcast = A lock in this block. Yeah?

Melira + Devoted Druid = Infinite mana -- EDIT: Doesn't work!

Melira is a pretty fun casual card.

Some other cards which play nice with Melira:

Scarscale Ritual -- EDIT: Doesn't work!
Everlasting Torment
Glen Elendra Archmage
Barrenton Medic -- EDIT: Doesn't work
Phyrexian Hydra



peace,
4eak

[blaat]

Wrong, the counter is never put on the creature, it comes into play with it already on.

In the case of Tatterkite + Cauldron of Souls + sac outlet, Tatterkite will return as a new object without memory of the persist ability. It also won't get the -1/-1 counter.

Since Melira's ability is in Layer 6 and the -1/-1 counter is in 7d, it won't enter the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter.

Feel free to correct me, i'm not a judge :)

[TheShaun]

In the case of Tatterkite + Cauldron of Souls + sac outlet, Tatterkite will return as a new object without memory of the persist ability. It also won't get the -1/-1 counter.

Since Melira's ability is in Layer 6 and the -1/-1 counter is in 7d, it won't enter the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter.

Feel free to correct me, i'm not a judge :)

I believe this is right, but it will only work once. Cauldron of Souls will not give the "new" Tatterkite persist.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Wow, Mental Misstep is HUGE. I think it'll be a must somewhere in my River Rock 75. Beast Within is also quite interesting.

[Rizso]

Nice with Edict card at common spot and

Dismember 1 P/B P/B
(P/B can be payed with either B or 2 Life)

Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn.

At uncommmon spot. Looks really nice.

[Arsenal]

Not bad. I think Dismember is competing with Snuff Out as they're pretty similar, although Dismember can hit black creatures, which is pretty important with an uptick in Confidant and Tombstalker seeing play.

[Aggro_zombies]

Mental Misstep is absolutely stupid. Like oh my god format redefining so stupid. Every aggro deck in the format should and will run this card, because it does a better job at solving aggro's number one problem than any card before it: Losing the die roll.

Plus, it makes a lot of deck's victory paths not work as well. For example:

Rock wins a ton of games off Thoughtseize, Take your Removal, Confidant. Now Mental Misstep prevents turn one Seize, Duress, Etc.

Dredge has to watch out, as this counters Putrid Imp, Careful Study, Breakthrough at 0, Tireless Tribe, and self-targeting Therapies, which can cause huge tempo problems.

Any deck relying on Sensei's Divining Top? Now every deck can have a solid answer for the Top.

Relying on that dig cantrip to get you there? Scarier move.

The hilarious part of Mental Misstep is the number of Misstep-versus-Misstep counterwars it's going to cause.
I don't know that we need to be this orgasmic over it.

The card is basically Spell Snare: it has a fixed number of possible targets that varies with deck, but allows you to save mana when countering them. Two life may or may not be relevant depending on the deck you have and the deck your opponent has; I can see this actually being paid for with mana, but not often. It also reminds me in a lot of ways of Mindbreak Trap, which was a counter that was supposed to revolutionize the way non-blue decks fought storm, but ended up not being good enough because it was easy for the storm player to play around.

In aggro decks, I could see this card combining with the aforementioned Trap and something like Teeg, Canonist, Pyrostatic Pillar, or whatever else to form an interesting anti-combo suite. I say "interesting" because it would eat up a ton of space and probably not bring the combo matchup into favorable territory even if your deck was very fast, but it would be amusing.

What does this card do for aggro? It counters almost all targeted removal, sure, but most aggro decks are built to be resilient to targeted removal. It doesn't affect Dredge much more than a Leyline does, as many of the cards listed come down on turn one; Leyline demands an answer by shutting their engine down, whereas this card can be worked around through Ye Olde DDD Route. Rock and Junk decks are relatively resilient to this card as well since they run far more discard spells than you can run Mental Missteps, and not having this card in your opener makes it a lot worse against that sort of plan.

This card actually probably does better work in blue decks where it protects against the all-important Aether Vial, on the play or draw. Counterbalance decks looking to help improve the tribal matchups will undoubtedly want some for the sideboard as a way to fight Vials and force the opponent to work through Counterbalance. It has a very similar role in tempo decks, where it also protects your relatively sparse threats from topdecked Swords or StPs.

I think the card is solid and is likely a niche sideboard player for decks looking to beat specific cards while still retaining some flexibility.

EDIT:

Melira + Devoted Druid = Infinite mana
Doesn't work. Putting the counter on is a cost, and Melira specifically says you can't pay said cost. It won't untap. Similarly, Scarscale Ritual can't be cast.

[rufus]

I'm glad Phyrexian Mana symbols have turned out to be so cool.

Phyrexian Unlife + Melira, Sylvok Outcast = A lock in this block. Yeah?

Melira + Devoted Druid = Infinite mana

Melira is a pretty fun casual card.

Some other cards which play nice with Melira:

Scarscale Ritual
Everlasting Torment
Glen Elendra Archmage
Barrenton Medic
Phyrexian Hydra


I think, just like Maralen of the Mornsong you can't put -1/-1 counters on your creatures as a cost while she's out. That means most of those don't work.

[obituary 95]

this card looks really intresting

Whipflare 1r
Instant (U)
Whipflare deals 2 damage to each nonartifact creature

good against some of the tribal decks and such . maybe landstill becomes competitive again. but its not good against afinity

[Jaynel]

Aw man, I'm just wondering where this sets going to go. But seriously, am I the only one nutting myself over the instant speed vindicate in green?

But seriously, am I the only one who has no idea what you're talking about?

[Arsenal]

Beast Within. It's an Instant Vindicate, in green, but the controller of the destroyed permanent gets a 3/3 token for his troubles.

"Jace, the Mind Sculptor? Sure. EOT, Beast Within? Cool. Enjoy your green Hill Giant."

[(nameless one)]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Geosurge. For three red mana, you can have an active Belcher (7 red mana).

And the green Vindicate. Talk about format redefining...

I'm just sad that white got shafted :(

[cdr]

I think, just like Maralen of the Mornsong you can't put -1/-1 counters on your creatures as a cost while she's out. That means most of those don't work.

Yep, costs don't work - you can't pay them. Effects like persist do, though.

[workingdude]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned Geosurge. For three red mana, you can have an active Belcher (7 red mana).

According to the current text, you cant use the mana to activate belcher, though. Use the 4 mana to cast belcher instead of geosurge

[4eak]

@ Aggro_zombies & rufus

Ah, yes, you guys are right. Looks like Persist and only few others seem to work. Eh, not bad still.



peace,
4eak

[Sammich]

In the case of Tatterkite + Cauldron of Souls + sac outlet, Tatterkite will return as a new object without memory of the persist ability. It also won't get the -1/-1 counter.

Since Melira's ability is in Layer 6 and the -1/-1 counter is in 7d, it won't enter the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter.

Feel free to correct me, i'm not a judge :)
I just checked, I guess I was misremembering a ruling.

However layer 7d is p/t change from counter which has nothing to do putting counters on a creature.

[cdr]

I just checked, I guess I was misremembering a ruling.

However layer 7d is p/t change from counter which has nothing to do putting counters on a creature.

Layers have nothing to do with most Melira interactions, period. Almost anything that's going to be placing -1/-1 counters is either a cost or a one-shot effect, not a continuous effect.

[Sammich]

this card looks really intresting

Whipflare 1r
Instant (U)
Whipflare deals 2 damage to each nonartifact creature

good against some of the tribal decks and such . maybe landstill becomes competitive again. but its not good against afinity
According to the godbook it's a sorcery, making it a worse pyroclasm unless you're affinity or mud or something.



Layers have nothing to do with most Melira interactions, period. Almost anything that's going to be placing -1/-1 counters is either a cost or a one-shot effect, not a continuous effect.

Yes I know that, maybe you should have read my whole post including the quote.

[cdr]

Yes I know that, maybe you should have read my whole post including the quote.

Maybe you shouldn't assume that a post is contradicting rather than complementing yours :)

[ivanpei]

I'm just wondering at the significance of Mental Misstep. Will it require ALL decks in legacy to run 4 just to compete tempo wise? I'm afraid that Legacy is going to Turn into Mental Misstep deck-> Non mental Misstep deck-> Chalice of the Void decks-> Mental Misstep deck. That would be the most boring meta ever. Chalice stompy decks got a huge boost from this set. Dragon Stompy especially. The Red Priest of Gix, Phyrexian Metamorph and Moltensteel Dragon really changes things. Say hello to Priest + Metamorph chains into Blood Moon/Chalice/Equipment on T1 and 6-8 RPDs in a singledeck!

[Pippin]

Mental Misstep is insane, I still can't believe they printed this...

It would probably be played even with costing just U (here and there), but being a force of will kind of a card without the need to pitch additional card... just what loads of decks need when they loose the die roll.

Format warping and we may see resurgence of chalice stompy decks due to it

[Sammich]

Maybe you shouldn't assume that a post is contradicting rather than complementing yours :)

Lol, I assumed your post was directed at mine because you quoted me, sorry about that.

[Sigar]

So it doesn't stop "As~" effects. This card is not cool.

Torpor Orb stops Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek, Eternal Witness, Goblin Ringleader and other good creatures, as well as comboing with Phyrexian Dreadnought. Maybe it's not playable, but it's definitely a cool card.

[atv]

Dang, the whole set spoiled.

I feel sorry for WOTC, I really do. Some heads will roll, for sure.

[Gheizen64]

Lol at praetor's grasp, the card is insane in Vintage. Remove one of their bombs (Will, Tinker) from their deck and tutor it for yourself, for 1BB. It's gonna be pre-emptively restricted there imho.

[Doomsday]

Lol at praetor's grasp, the card is insane in Vintage. Remove one of their bombs (Will, Tinker) from their deck and tutor it for yourself, for 1BB. It's gonna be pre-emptively restricted there imho.

I will most definitely play it instead of Grim Tutor in TPS anyway.

[Grollub]

Immolating Souleater looks kind of interesting for Sligh or another highly aggresive aggro deck, the ability to punch for up to 10 with a single card on turn 2-3 surely is worth consideration.

Immolating Souleater 2
Artifact Creature - Hound (C)
Phyrexian-Red: Immolating Souleater gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
1/1

[Barook]

Immolating Souleater looks kind of interesting for Sligh or another highly aggresive aggro deck, the ability to punch for up to 10 with a single card on turn 2-3 surely is worth consideration.

Immolating Souleater 2
Artifact Creature - Hound (C)
Phyrexian-Red: Immolating Souleater gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
1/1
Actually, this sounds like a good combo with Berserk.

[bruno_tiete]

Actually, this sounds like a good combo with Berserk.

Or Assault Strobe.

Channel + Fireball. Now available in your draft deck.

[Barook]

Or Assault Strobe.

Channel + Fireball. Now available in your draft deck.
So many crafty interactions. New Phyrexia might become the most relevant set for Legacy since Future Sight.

I love Ken Nagle's design.

[Jigga_Tech]

Hey guys I have a silly question. When is New Phyrexian legal? Will it be legal for GP Providence?

[Richard Cheese]

Just as an aside - the art from this set makes my nipples hard...in a good way. If only they could keep today's art quality and go back to the old borders.

[2Rach]

Or Assault Strobe.

Channel + Fireball. Now available in your draft deck.
Or Tainted Strike.

Run four of each with 4 Pierce and Misstep and run people over. lol

[1maarten1]

Wow! This is actually the first set in a long long while that I will go buy a boosterbox of. I like almost every card in the set, just so many cards that have alot of potential. Great!

[evanmartyr]

Dismember (1{bP}{bP}, instant, target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn) could be a good "colorless but not colorless" snuff out, giving Stax type decks access to some decent removal.

Spined Thopter (2{uPhyrexian} 2/1 flying artifact creature) seems fairly decent. Not min-blowing, but a 2power flyer for 2 with a one-time only drawback is nothing to sneer at.

Norn's Annex, the phyrexian propoganda thing, seems cool. Not great, since the opponent can always choose to win or not win, but it is an equivalently costed Ghostly Prison that makes it expensive to attack your Planeswalkers as well as you. Not as good as Moat, but you know..in print. So there's that.

Etched Monstrosity seems...cool. Kind of vulnerable, and probably not very playable in legacy, but I like it. At the very least, it's a 5/5 for 5, which is somewhat rare without a color investment or hoop to jump through.

Darksteel Relic is confusing. I can't figure out why they put it in the set. Actually, I can't figure out wtf it's supposed to do, other than let affinity and/or metalcraft recover more easily from mass removal, but then. You know. You could have played a real card and not needed to recover from mass removal most of the time, right?

Omen Machine (6, players don't draw cards, at the beginning of your upkeeps reveal and cast the top card of your library without paying for it) could be stupid. 6 mana is a lot to spend to set up a win condition, but it lets you continue to churn out absurdity turn after turn, with no further mana investement. Worldly/Sylvan tutors, something? I dunno. Congregation at Dawn with Emrakul, Iona, etc?

For the most part, though, the artifacts are pretty disappointing. The green Shrine could be used in something, although I'm not sure what.

As are the lands...land. Single non-basic. Boo.

Oh, and there's GOT to be a way to abuse Surge Node. A 1cc artifact that has 6 charge counters on it right away? Someone, break that.

[Gheizen64]

After trying some cards a bit, i've been impressed by :

Vault Skirge 1 pB
Artifact Creature - Imp (C)
Flying
Lifelink
1/1

It may not look like much, but this is the next best thing to slap plating on after Etched Champion. Also at 1 effective mana cost it help a lot brown aggro's curve without being an actual CMC 1, so no bad interactions with CotV. It also help a lot t1-2 Opal metalcraft and the lifelink make merfolk a good matchup from a pretty bad one.

Next i'm gonna try some UB (maybe also w) control infect, too bad there weren't any decent infect creature spoiled, but the set looks really good so i'm not complaining.

I'm sad that red haven't got anything good for eternal in like... 10 sets? :(

[Nidd]

Whipflare 1R
Instant (U)
Whipflare deals 2 damage to each nonartifact creature.

This has to be good somewhere. Maybe it's really time for Affinity to play Galvanic Blast...?
Or it's an instant-speed "Firespout" for Control against swarm Aggro?

[Koby]

I'm sad that red haven't got anything good for eternal in like... 10 sets? :(

The last good card red got was Goblin Welder. So that's not saying much about Red in Vintage. (which I mean to say, Red sucks in Vintage because it doesn't do broken shit anymore)

[Aggro_zombies]

Whipflare 1R
Instant (U)
Whipflare deals 2 damage to each nonartifact creature.

This has to be good somewhere. Maybe it's really time for Affinity to play Galvanic Blast...?
Or it's an instant-speed "Firespout" for Control against swarm Aggro?
The godbook has it listed as a sorcery, making it worse than Pyroclasm unless you're playing it in Affinity or something.

[lorddotm]

The last good card red got was Goblin Welder. So that's not saying much about Red in Vintage. (which I mean to say, Red sucks in Vintage because it doesn't do broken shit anymore)

Have you played Ancient Grudge in Vintage recently? It is absolutely absurd.

[Shawon]

At first I was mad excited about Whipflare but now I hope it's not an instant. It takes away from the skill of timing your sorcery-speed mass removal. A Volcanic Fallout for :1::r: seems a little too efficient.

[Barook]

Bludgeon Brawl :2::r:
Enchantment
Each noncreature, non-Equipment artifact is an equipment with equip X and "Equipped creature gets +x/+0, where X is that artifact's converted mana cost.

Any fancy ways to abuse this?

Hilarious draw with Puresteel Paladin with cheap artifacts/artifact lands comes into mind.

[tsabo_tavoc]

The last good card red got was Goblin Welder. So that's not saying much about Red in Vintage. (which I mean to say, Red sucks in Vintage because it doesn't do broken shit anymore)

Almost true, except Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens.

[Tacosnape]

I don't think Bludgeon Brawl is abuseable, but it is absolutely hilarious.

I've decided Immolating Souleater is going to piss me off. At 19 life or higher, it's a very fast kill with anything that gives it double strike or infect. It's flawed and vulnerable and probably terrible, but a lot of scrubby red players aren't going to care, and I'm not going to prepare for it properly, and I'm going to lose to it at some point and rage quit life. Or go spend $15 on some vodka and move on. Depending on my mood.

That said, here's my top ten Legacy-impacting cards out of New Phyrexia.

1. Mental Misstep - Reshaping. Read the thread.
2. Torpor Orb - Will spawn more new deck archetypes than any other, and hurt existing CIPT guys and Thopter/Sword decks.
3. Glistener Elf - The card Infect players have been waiting for.
4. Phyrexian Metamorph - Splashable in any color. Kills Progenitus, Emrakul, Jitte, Iona if it's not on Blue, and duplicates pretty much all the best threats in the format not named Knight of the Reliquary (Well, it does copy Knight, but if you aren't playing Green and/or White this is less awesome.)
5. Dismember - 1 colorless mana and 4 life to get rid of any but a few of the format's biggest guys. Decks not splashing for removal colors mightl want this.
6. Gitaxian Probe - Amazing weapon for Cephalid Breakfast, possible weapon for Dredge also, neat with anything packing Cabal Therapy really.
7. Praetor's Grasp - Bizarre and techy, and would be amazing if not for the second black. But the fact that it can get everything from your opponent's one Tendrils, to Wasteland, to Force of Will, to whatever you need gives it some potential.
8. Surgical Extraction - Would have been revolutionary if Mental Misstep hadn't existed in the same set. Still decent, but less likely to make the Legacy cut now.
9. Karn Liberated - Rampable, and has more potential than anything left in the set probably.
10. Phyrexian Unlife - Not positive this should get the ten spot, but its uses are easier to see than the rest of the cards I might put here. With all the life paying going on, three for 10+ life (If you're at 1 and take 6, you still don't start getting infect until next source) seems potentially useable.

Other cards worth an eye:

Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite - Dredge loves it, but possibly only Dredge and it's not that revolutionary.
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur - I can't break it, but I'm not convinced someone else can't. Or that a card will be later printed that can.
Unwinding Clock - Seems stupid good with things like Grim and Basalt Monoliths. Probably stupid good with other things also.
Immolating Souleater - See beginning of post.
Moltensteel Dragon - Neat dragon if you've got the life to spare.
Birthing Pod - See Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur.
Mutagenic Growth - Amazing combat trick, blinding speed in pump decks.
Slag Fiend - Dear Kataki, War's Wage. Middle Finger. Sincerely, Affinity. PS: Say hello to Serenity for me.

[rufus]

Myr Superion 2
Artifact Creature - Myr Rare
Spend only mana produced by creatures to cast Myr Superion.
5/6

Any other plausible ways to cheat him into play than:
Tezzeret the Seeker
Transmute Artifact
Aether Vial

[mrjumbo03]

@ Tacosnape, no love for beast within? the 2G instant vindicate that leaves a 3/3... I'm sure you merely overlooked this card because it's better than some of those cards you listed...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There's three mana answers to cards that don't give your opponents elephants, so I doubt Beast Within will see play.

[Barook]

Transmute Artifact
Didn't think about that one. Good call.

Reanimate/Unearth work well with discard outlets.

Or creature mana filters like Initiates of the Ebon Hand, Blood Celebrant and Priest of Gix/new red Priest. Lotus Cobra + fetchland works as well.

Question: Does Myr Superion work with ESG/SSG?

[rufus]

I've decided Immolating Souleater is going to piss me off. At 19 life or higher, it's a very fast kill with anything that gives it double strike or infect. .... Or go spend $15 on some vodka and move on. Depending on my mood.
Also, Lifelink, stuff like Berserk or Fling (affinity), Death's Shadow...

[Koby]

Question: Does Myr Superion work with ESG/SSG?

My gut feeling says yes, as the mana source came from a creature ability.

[Barook]

My gut feeling says yes, as the mana source came from a creature ability.
Well, it says mana from creatures, not creature cards, so I'm not sure.

Oh, Tinder Wall works as well. As do Elf decks.

[rufus]

Does Noxious Revival have potential in Gifts Ungiven piles?


My gut feeling says yes, as the mana source came from a creature ability.
Unless it's in play...er on the battlefield... it's a creature card and not a creature.

[Tacosnape]

Beast Within is actually kind of neat with the 2-mana artifacts in this block that trigger upon entering the battlefield and leaving the battlefield. But, I think IBA said it best. There's answers that don't give your opponents Elephants. Run those instead. I can see this in maybe all the mono-green combo decks that Legacy doesn't have, but beyond that? No.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well, it says mana from creatures, not creature cards, so I'm not sure.

Oh, Tinder Wall works as well. As do Elf decks.

ESG is a creature card and not a creature when in your hand.

Also, Superion is bad. Hidden costs far outweigh the benefit of having a 5/6 vanilla ground pounder.

[Arsenal]

I'm interested in knowing why Torpor Orb will give Thopters trouble. I mean, I understand how the card works and it's interactions with Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek, but there are currently many, many cards in the same vein as Torpor Orb that deal with the Thopter Foundry + Sword othe Meek interaction (Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Phyrexian Revoker, etc) and none of them have really impacted Thopters one way or the other. I think Torpor Orb will just be thrown into the same pile that Null Rod/Pithing Needle sit;a sideboard card that will have a marginal effect on the matchup.

[2Rach]

I don't understand how it hurts it at all. It's Sword of the Meek's ability that has it keep coming back, not the token creature's.

[wcm8]

Regarding Myr superion... I don't really think it makes the cut in legacy, but it's possible that some sort of Maverick deck could use it. They have aether vial, noble hierarch and/or birds, and could possibly even run Skyshroud Elf to play him. Of course, he's really just an artifact Goyf with a drawback.

[Rizso]

Regarding Myr superion... I don't really think it makes the cut in legacy, but it's possible that some sort of Maverick deck could use it. They have aether vial, noble hierarch and/or birds, and could possibly even run Skyshroud Elf to play him. Of course, he's really just an artifact Goyf with a drawback.

Could also use Dryad Arbor to cast it.

[Arsenal]

I don't understand how it hurts it at all. It's Sword of the Meek's ability that has it keep coming back, not the token creature's.

With Torpor Orb in play, Sword of the Meek's triggered ability will not trigger when the 1/1 flying Thopter creature token enters the battlefield.

Torpor Orb
Artifact
Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.

But again, I don't understand how Torpor Orb will hurt Thopters any more than Pithing Needle, Null Rod, etc already do (or don't). I'd actually argue that Null Rod is far, far more effective versus Thopters than anything as it shuts down Sensei's Divining Top, Vedalken Shackles, Engineered Explosives, Thopter Foundry, and Sword of the Meek equip (not like this ever happens, but it's still an option that's now taken away) in addition to commonly played SB cards like Tormod's Crypt, etc.

[2Rach]

Oh snap, slick wording! lol I just assumed it stifled 187 triggers.

Arsenal, the fact that it hits creatures makes it versatile in other ways, giving some merit. Not that I'm saying I think it's usable outside of Dreadnought decks. (Right now anyway)

[mrjumbo03]

There's three mana answers to cards that don't give your opponents elephants, so I doubt Beast Within will see play.

Like what? Only card that I can think of that sees play and hits all kinds of permanents, is Vindicate and that's a sorcery and requires 2 colors... Oring can't hit lands, same goes with Pulse, Krosan Grip can only hit artifacts and enchantments etc. The flexibility it gives Green, which usually doesn't get this kind of effect makes it great as well... A 3/3 Elephant is less problematic than let's say Tabernacle, or Moat, or Jace, or Iona, or Humility, or Tombstalker, or Peacekeeper... Can any 3 mana card (aside from Vindicate) answer all those? I wouldn't think so because if there is, it would have seen play... It also allows some tricks like maybe hitting your own land to block an attacking creature, or giving you enough creatures to lethal your opponent...

It's casting cost (only requires 1 G) makes it splashable in decks that run Green as well... If this would have costed 1GG, it would be less appealing because only decks running Green can run it... I'm not saying that this card will see play in all decks but I'm pretty sure that this will see play over some of the cards in Taco's list...

[Arsenal]

But monogreen decks don't really exist (unless you're counting that Monogreen Chalice Aggro pipedream or Combo Elves). So to say that "card xyz requires two colors!" as a reason to play Beast Within is weak because you won't be playing monogreen for it's mono-coloredness to even matter.

[GGoober]

Beast within wants to make me Lol in UWg Wishstill. It's a highly flexible Wish target that hits almost everything I can think of. Who cares about a 3/3 bear on turn 3+. As long it's not a turn 1 Nactl or Merfolks I'm fine :P It's like Pongify but more versatile. Too bad beasts aren't as funny as apes, I would love Jace to be turned into an Ape.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The ability to hit lands isn't particularly worth giving your opponent free elephants instead of running O-Ring or Maelstrom Pulse. What deck cares so much about lands that it can afford to give out free win conditions?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Beast within wants to make me Lol in UWg Wishstill. It's a highly flexible Wish target that hits almost everything I can think of. Who cares about a 3/3 bear on turn 3+. As long it's not a turn 1 Nactl or Merfolks I'm fine :P

Why would you want a very versatile bad card to Cunning Wish for when you could wish for narrow but powerful and useful cards.

[mrjumbo03]

But some decks don't have W and B in them to play the only other 3 mana answer that answers everything... For example, you think Bant decks wouldn't like the option to run a vindicate that only gives a 3/3 elephant? The same bant deck that runs Goyf, KotR, even Rhox War Monk which would make the 3/3 a none threat? There are also some decks that can't really make good use of that 3/3 elephant, hitting an Island against Spiral Tide would severely hurt its combo because it needs to hit all of its land drops... And really, instant speed has its upside as well... What does vindicate do to a freshly cast plating that's getting equipped on the same turn on that Ornithopter? Again I'm not even saying that this card will warp the format, heck I'm not even saying that it will surely see play, but it is a really good card, and it will see play over some of the cards on Taco's list...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It doesn't answer everything. It doesn't answer threats. It just diminishes them, if that. So what if you have some bigger creatures? You think they're invulnerable? At best you give them an extra blocker to help take down a bigger creature. This card is barely better than Oblation, if that.

[Finn]

It is totally different from Oblation. Oblation permits a deck to continue with it's own gameplan. Beast within curbs it toward green's gameplan.

I am sure most players would gladly replace their opponent's Jace with a Trained Armodon. Or a Candelabra. Or a Chalice. Or a Cephalid. Or a...

The real question is going to be if folks are willing to trade in their Grips for it.

[mrjumbo03]

Oblation doesn't even hit lands... Making that 8/8 KoTR a 3/3 elephant seems like answering the threat to me... What would you rather see across the board, a dark confidant or a 3/3 vanilla creature? And your argument that "at best giving them an extra blocker to help take down a bigger creature seems stupid", why would you attack when you see that he can block favorably? Again you are missing the point that this card is an answer to all kinds of permanents in the color Green which does not have this kind of effect before... And hitting lands is relevant as well... You can randomly manascrew opponents if played correctly... So what if he gets to swing once or twice with that 3/3 you gave him when he can't play his cards while you develop your board? Also you've missed the point of being able to hit problem lands like Karakas, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm etc.

[edgarps22]

I agree it only diminishes threats, but in some cases, like Jace, it hurts them a LOT more if they just have a 3/3. There are cases, especially when playing Zoo and Elves, where I would love to have this at instant speed to get rid of troublesome cards like Jace, or a Wasteland, or a Tombstalker, etc etc. Point being, it is a FAR easier removal spell to cast, is basically 1/3 of a Terrastadon, though without us having a body as well, so it will see play. Maybe not a LOT of play, but it will see play. I would happily turn your ridiculous threats into a highly manageable 3/3 anytime.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Three mana is historically past the point where people are willing to accept major drawbacks for removal spells. Three mana is a lot for a removal spell.

Beast Within is bad for the same reason that Oblation and Arcane Denial are bad; it's a hit to both tempo and card advantage.

eta: Show of hands: how many people hyping this card also hyped Pongify? Be honest. At least Pongify got you sort-of-tempo.

[mrjumbo03]

Both tempo and card advantage?? Really? For one thing, this ain't even a sorcery that forces you to tap out on your turn, furthermore, the term card advantage does not take into account card quality... By your argument, trading beast within for a 3/3 elephant and the Moat that's preventing you to alpha strike is a bad play, right? a 3/3 vanilla creature is a major drawback? Wow... Sure it's a drawback but one that I would hardly consider major, specially considering that not all decks win the game through the red zone...

If this card had been a 3 mana removal spell that hits ONLY creatures then it might be bad... but it hits ALL PERMANENTS! Of course there will be some kind of drawback... WotC will not print a Green Vindicate with no drawbacks that's just insane! I'll give you some points though, if it gave a 4/4 creature then i would probably agree with you that it will be a major drawback, but at 3/3? Really?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If it had been a 3cc removal spell that only hit creatures, it would be bad, no maybe, because Pongify is much cheaper but still bad, and in a color that has little actual removal.

No deck that cares particularly about killing lands also wants to hand out creatures since they're so dependent on tempo. No deck with black or white would rather play this than O-Ring or Maelstrom Pulse.

And of course the problem is that 80% of the time, you don't really need to get rid of Moats; you have to get rid of creatures with your removal, often fairly mundane creatures, and turning them into 3/3s for tapping out really doesn't cut it.

So yes. Really.

[mrjumbo03]

Okay you win... Everyone who gets caught playing with this crap should immediately be considered a bad player for failing to discern that a 3cc removal spell that hits all kinds of permanents but will most probably hit creatures 80% of the time according to you, and having a major drawback of giving a vanilla 3/3 creature... Furthermore, oblivion rings and maelstrom pulses are better than this card even though they do not hit lands which you have been failing to see and that this can be played at instant speed opening up a whole bunch of other possibilities and one-sided trades... Moreover, this card is terribly bad because of tempo and card advantage, despite the fact that those 2 freaking terms fail to take into account card quality which still makes me scratch my head because if tempo and card advantage are the only guidelines in measuring whether a card is good, then why the hell do cards like Daze and Force of Will even used?

[Barook]

Sifted a bit through MWS and also found Manaforge Cinder, giving you 12 reliable color fixers along with Initiate and Priest. Now add Rituals, Chrome Mox, Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors for a massive speedbump and it could turn out to be a hilarious variant of a Suicide Black deck (with emphasis on suicide).

[Volrath]

Sifted a bit through MWS and also found Manaforge Cinder, giving you 12 reliable color fixers along with Initiate and Priest. Now add Rituals, Chrome Mox, Ancient Tombs and City of Traitors for a massive speedbump and it could turn out to be a hilarious variant of a Suicide Black deck (with emphasis on suicide).

Please do so.

Running 12 god awfull/ completly useless critters to cast a vanilla Myr that get's STP'ed. I love it allready.

[Barook]

Please do so.

Running 12 god awfull/ completly useless critters to cast a vanilla Myr that get's STP'ed. I love it allready.
Actually, the main idea would be to utilize the color fixing and accel to pump spells with :b::b: like Hymn extremely fast.

[ummon]

The ability to hit lands isn't particularly worth giving your opponent free elephants instead of running O-Ring or Maelstrom Pulse. What deck cares so much about lands that it can afford to give out free win conditions?

Agreed. O-Ring and Maelstrom Pulse are definitely superior.

[rufus]

Unwinding Clock - Seems stupid good with things like Grim and Basalt Monoliths. Probably stupid good with other things also.

Artifact lands, and the mox-type things, and Stasis I suppose, but it's really not that compelling. With the monoliths, you'd be spending 4 mana to get 3 back per turn. Most of the time Twiddle is better. Though I do wonder how this interacts with Kill Switch



Birthing Pod - See Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur.

Most of the time you'd be paying X+3 mana and close to 2X life where X is the eventual critter's casting cost. Potential fun for the Myr Superion and Epocrasite, but you really need enter or exit triggers to make it at all interesting.

[dahcmai]

I can't get behind the myr. If I wanted a big vanilla creature for 2 mana, I'd play goyf. Silly, but that's really what it amounts to. He's big, but so is a goyf and you don't have to go through hoops to play him.

Though sadly enough I think I actually will test out a stupid idea in that new extirpate. Playing Extirpate, Extraction, Lobotomy, Cranial Extraction, Eradicate, together seems kind of insane anymore. You can almost start getting your card advantage back just from accidentally hitting their hand enough times. Depleting threats doesn't sound horrible, though the whole mana cost of these things will probably kill the idea as usual. Doesn't hurt to see how it works though.

[obituary 95]

he what do you guys think about this card

Isolation Cell 4
Artifact
Whenever an opponent casts a creature spell, that player loses 2 life unless he or she pays 4

[Pale Moon FTW]

It's not going to see any play, there are far more effective SB cards against aggressive aggro and elves such as Firespout and E. Plague

[Justin]

Though sadly enough I think I actually will test out a stupid idea in that new extirpate. Playing Extirpate, Extraction, Lobotomy, Cranial Extraction, Eradicate, together seems kind of insane anymore. You can almost start getting your card advantage back just from accidentally hitting their hand enough times. Depleting threats doesn't sound horrible, though the whole mana cost of these things will probably kill the idea as usual. Doesn't hurt to see how it works though.

LOL! I doubt this idea will work, but it sounds fun to try. You can run Cabal Therapy and possibily more one-mana discard. You run acceleration in the form of Dark Rit and Birds (which you can also flashback Therapy for). Maybe some creature removal or Damnation to protect against creatures that get though. You don't play any win conditions. You win by removing all your opponent's win conditions and then forcing them to concede or milling them.

[dahcmai]

I doubt it will work either, though I do remember when Thresh was the deck to beat and how easily mono-B control just wrecked it since it just removed all the threats so easily. It always makes me think about that.


Isolation cell is way expensive against all the things you'd want it for. Elves is the best target, but well they already are spewing elves by the time you can dump that thing. The sweeper approach is just plain better in the end. At least it works against other decks decently.

[rufus]

LOL! I doubt this idea will work, but it sounds fun to try. You can run Cabal Therapy and possibily more one-mana discard. You run acceleration in the form of Dark Rit and Birds (which you can also flashback Therapy for). Maybe some creature removal or Damnation to protect against creatures that get though. You don't play any win conditions. You win by removing all your opponent's win conditions and then forcing them to concede or milling them.

I still want to see the list that plays Relentless Rats with the intent of doing a deck self-destruct into some kind of combo.

[AngryTroll]

I still want to see the list that plays Relentless Rats with the intent of doing a deck self-destruct into some kind of combo.

This sounds awesome. With Extirpate and the new Phyrexian Extirpate, you just need...hmm...some lands, some discard outlets, and a combo. You'd still have at least 7 extra cards in the deck (the Extirpate effects), plus extra lands...hmm. Back to the drawing board.

[Aggro_zombies]

I doubt it will work either, though I do remember when Thresh was the deck to beat and how easily mono-B control just wrecked it since it just removed all the threats so easily. It always makes me think about that.


Isolation cell is way expensive against all the things you'd want it for. Elves is the best target, but well they already are spewing elves by the time you can dump that thing. The sweeper approach is just plain better in the end. At least it works against other decks decently.
Soul Barrier is basically the same card, but cheaper.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

LOL! I doubt this idea will work, but it sounds fun to try. You can run Cabal Therapy and possibily more one-mana discard. You run acceleration in the form of Dark Rit and Birds (which you can also flashback Therapy for). Maybe some creature removal or Damnation to protect against creatures that get though. You don't play any win conditions. You win by removing all your opponent's win conditions and then forcing them to concede or milling them.

Or you play other cards, some tutoring/filtering effects, and a Haunting Echoes. It's like the same thing only way better. You don't even have to maindeck the 1 of, actually, you can just run Burning Wish.