Are there too many different combo decks in Legacy?

[majikal]

With High Tide taking another win this weekend in Atlanta, it seems the Legacy metagame is beginning to solidify into something less open than we initially thought. As the dust settles, we can begin to see the tiers of the format, and King Combo is poised firmly at the top. Is this sudden resurgence due to a lack of adequate hate being played in players' sideboards or is there a deeper problem? Can the recent uprising of combo decks be explained by any particular banning or unbanning, or is this the result of a soft field with too little experience?

I personally feel like the sheer amount of different combo decks is having a negative impact. You can prepare for the aggro and control decks that you know you will face at big events, but you almost have to blindly pick a combo deck to hate and hope you don't face the rest of them, as many have completely different weaknesses from one another.

Thoughts? Is it time to play combo or go home, or do you think the format will regulate itself?

Edit: Can one of you mods add a poll to this thread? I'd be interested in seeing something quantifiable.

[emidln]

We are seeing an issue with matchup percentages keeping combo doing well right now.

The decks that beat Combo typically have very weak G/x aggro matchups. Things like the various GSZ decks, Elves, Bant Aggro will curb stomp your 2 mana enchantments or misc artifacts far before you find your way into the 3-0/4-0 bracket where you start seeing the unfair decks you impose a much fairer gameplan on. This leaves Combo players who get to walk through extremely low hate (e.g. the bant aggro deck from this past weekend's scg top8) or no hate. The green aggro decks still do well because they see various CB, mirrors, and other decks they just dominate far more often than they run into combo. When it comes to top8, you see 4-6 wolves (dredge, spiral tide, tendrils, painter) with sheep trying to cast sorceries that fetch up dryad arbor.

If you play something like Dreadstill, and see your very good matchups (which are typically an extremely low portion of the field) before your round 3 you find yourself in a bracket where each round you get to play against something you'll probably crush or some midrange green thing that plays 40ish threats and 20 lands.

It boils down to beating unfair decks and fair decks at the same time is a pretty hard thing to do, unless of course you just try to be more unfair than your opponent.

[ivanpei]

That Bant deck in the T8 had just 4 Force, 3 Cliques MD to deal with combo. It punishes aggro and counterbalance but it's going to be difficult to take down combo with such a slow clock and just 7 cards that interact with the opponent. I think GSZ really pushed counterbalance off the legacy map and Combo is benefiting greatly from it. Personally, as someone who has played blue for a long time, I would not play Counterbalance right now, because even if I do well in the T8, I might not get there against all that tribal and aggro. I agree with emidln, basically there needs to be a new counterbalance build that can beat GSZ/Tribal. That's not easy as you need to deal with Swarms (Goblins/Folk/Elves) or Bigs (GSZ-> KOTR/Goyf) AND Spells (Natural Order/Equipment). You can't splash too many colours and still be ok against wasteland. The aggro meta is so diverse that it's hard to find the perfect combination to "control" them.

What's the best strategy? I'd just play a resilient combo deck that craps on aggro and has a fairly ok MU against blue. And since that's literally every viable combo deck, we are seeing those results in the SCG T8s.

Another option is a return to the traditional sweeper (Wrath/Damnation). Aggro has peeled back speed for power and a better mid range game against the mirror. Is this the time to sleeve up your ancient 4 mana sweepers? Traditional Sweepers solve Swarms, Bigs AND Progenitus/Emrakul. So why not play them? Perhaps a UW countertop-walker shell with Traditional Sweepers would do well right now. Lots of basics paired with STP, Path, Sweepers and Counterbalance could be viable.

[Arsenal]

A traditional UWx CounterTop Thopters list placed 14th at SCG Open Atlanta. It runs lots of basics, StP, Sweepers, and Counterbalance. Coincidence?

[ivanpei]

The deck runs 2 EE and 1 Wrath of god + 7 basics. Good choice, I like. Thopthers is somewhat of a mini combo in itself and if assembled early, can really kick aggro in the balls.

[Hanni]

Counterbalance is no less diminished by GSZ than Counterbalance is diminished by Qasali Pridemage. GSZ is far worse at sneaking threats through a Counterbalance than AEther Vial. GSZ is a 4-of, often less than that, and grabbing a Goyf with a GSZ for 3 mana, or even a Knight of the Reliquary for 4 mana, doesn't ensure you're dodging Counterbalance anymore.

I'd say the ressurgence of combo is heavily due to the amount of Vial Aggro and other various aggro decks that popped up at the beginning of this year and started dominating Top 8's. In response to such an aggro heavy metagame, combo is the clear metagame choice. Less players are playing Counterbalance right now because it's subpar against all the various aggro decks designed to beat it. Once combo asserts itself back into the top tier of the metagame, expect to see a ressurgence of Counterbalance. At that point, aggro pops back up, and we get a constant metagame shift every so many months. That's how the cookie crumbles.

Once players shy away from aggro/control Counterbalance variants and start designing Counterbalance decks that actually beat all the random aggro and Vial Aggro, you'll see a Counterbalance deck that's capable of staying a metagame presence. CounterTop Thopters is more than capable of doing that, as well as my own CounterTop Walker. Supreme Blue, when built correctly, can also do very well against aggro. Players need to realize that when building a Counterbalance deck, they cannot rely on Counterbalance to win them every matchup, and have to have other cards in their deck to handle things. The biggest problem Counterbalance has is AEther Vial, and most Counterbalance decks are cold to it preboard and postboard. Once Control decks fix their Vial Aggro matchup, you'll see a huge ressurgence of control decks in the format.

[ivanpei]

@ Hanni, I agree with your description of the matchup wheel, but Combo has been dominating the SCGs for some time. And a solution still has not been found for all those Vial/GSZ decks. The last 2 T8s were Combo dominated so I'm guessing the next SCG will be the bounce back for Control. Team America was on top for 2 SCGs, so combo probably won't last longer up there too.

Care to share your current countertop list? I'll drop by the counter-top walker thread and have a look.

[Hanni]

Care to share your current countertop list? I'll drop by the counter-top walker thread and have a look.


My current list is on the last page of the CounterTop Walker thread right now, and I started working on a primer today that I will hopefully have finished by the end of the week.

[Shax]

To elaborate. David got 4th place with Combo Elves. He went straight up undefeated for a while too. Ran 2 mindbreak traps in the board and I think five Leylines. Those are all good cards. Good cards beat bad cards. A trap resolved is just as busted as that double Lion's Eye Diamond->Ritual Infernal Tutor hand that gives you a win unmolested.Trap is good against Spiral Tide too. Leyline works as well.

I think countertop is still one of the most dominant archtypes in Legacys history. Ever since Countertop decks have evolved the metagame has never came back from the near death experience. Tribal spawned because.. well Tribal is a step up on the corporate ladder of Legacy bad guys. The worst offenders are those wolves emidln posted on.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Hmmmm...

Heavy combo and aggro presence makes me think some sort of Mono-Black deck might be something worth trying out.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

In before Wizards announces 20 card sideboards to combat the "Legacy combo problem." /sarcasm

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

When the not-combo players (as a group, not individually) figure out that discard doesn't actually beat combo, or really do very much at all unless you open with discard-discard-discard-confidant, the meta will become bluer and more stable. I mean, with that kind of grip you could've just been running relevant cards (counterspells) in the first place and not still lose to a topdecked Time Spiral/Show & Tell/Breakthrough/whatever. Drew Levin mentioned in some article recently that CBtop will probably be good again come Providence, which I suspect is true only because Spiral Tide will probably win it, not because it solves the problem of Ux combo and Gx aggro simultaneously.


Counterbalance is no less diminished by GSZ than Counterbalance is diminished by Qasali Pridemage. GSZ is far worse at sneaking threats through a Counterbalance than AEther Vial. GSZ is a 4-of, often less than that, and grabbing a Goyf with a GSZ for 3 mana, or even a Knight of the Reliquary for 4 mana, doesn't ensure you're dodging Counterbalance anymore.
This really isn't true at all. I'm going to try to ballpark a realistic estimate here rather than use hyperbole, so GSZ is about one billion times more detrimental to Counterbalance than QPM. Its cost is much more flexible, fetches a toolbox full of answers, isn't automatically hit by another 2-to-4-of in the cb deck (Spell Snare) and on top of that, gets to be curved into naturally after making your 1-drop, 2-drop rather than having to stall on pressure because you need to sneak a pridemage through before top gets online too. Aether Vial precludes comparison because its inclusion forces some design restrictions on the deck (must have enough creatures, said creatures must be similar in cost) that GSZ decks don't face. CBtop can't be the answer to resilient combo decks in a meta full of crappy midrange, or if it is, it needs some work so it loses to neither at least half of the time.

[Clark Kant]

In before Wizards announces 20 card sideboards to combat the "Legacy combo problem." /sarcasm

I would LOVE for there to be 20 card sideboards.

Legacy is an enormously diverse field, more so than any format has ever been in the history of magic. There are literally hundreds of tier 1.5 decks that have a shot of top 8ing in a tournament if they face the right matchups. It's impossible to gear your sideboard to deal with all of your possible bad matchups with just 15 slots in the board.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I would LOVE for there to be 20 card sideboards.

Legacy is an enormously diverse field, more so than any format has ever been in the history of magic. There are literally hundreds of tier 1.5 decks that have a shot of top 8ing in a tournament if they face the right matchups. It's impossible to gear your sideboard to deal with all of your possible bad matchups with just 15 slots in the board.

+1.

Also, all the sideboards I test are usually 20-25 cards, so I can get a sense of what pulls its weight and what doesn't feel like including. I think some of my MWS opponents kinda hate me. :tongue:

[Rood]

Counterbalance will be back. Look at how much combo is going rampage style at all the SCGs lately. Not enough people playing CB/Top is all. It's perfectly fine at the moment just needs to be boarded with properly to handle the midrange decks.

[Final Fortune]

Aether Vial and Green Sun's Zenith turned Counterbalance and Spellsnare into shit over night, and contrary to popular belief Spell Pierce and Wasteland do not stop Storm combo. I doubt we'll see a resurgance of Counter/Top, but I bet we'll see Enlightened Tutor SBs, Gaddock Teeg, Mind Break Trap, Vendilion Clique and Meddling Mage in force in G/w/x decks.

Give people a bit of time to adjust to combo having an advantage vs. blue game 1 for a change and people will start SBing the necessary hate.

[Hanni]

This really isn't true at all. I'm going to try to ballpark a realistic estimate here rather than use hyperbole, so GSZ is about one billion times more detrimental to Counterbalance than QPM. Its cost is much more flexible, fetches a toolbox full of answers, isn't automatically hit by another 2-to-4-of in the cb deck (Spell Snare) and on top of that, gets to be curved into naturally after making your 1-drop, 2-drop rather than having to stall on pressure because you need to sneak a pridemage through before top gets online too. Aether Vial precludes comparison because its inclusion forces some design restrictions on the deck (must have enough creatures, said creatures must be similar in cost) that GSZ decks don't face. CBtop can't be the answer to resilient combo decks in a meta full of crappy midrange, or if it is, it needs some work so it loses to neither at least half of the time.

When I made the comparison to Qasali Pridemage, I meant that GSZ is more comparable to it than to Vial (vs Counterbalance), not that GSZ isn't better than Qasali (vs Counterbalance). GSZ is a one-time effect, whereas once Vial is down, every single threat sneaks past Counterbalance. GSZ only sneaks a creature through when you cast it. It's possible to use GSZ more than once, but it's not comparable to shutting out Counterbalance in the way that AEther Vial does.

GSZ is also not full proof either. If you have the mana to seriously dodge Counterbalance (paying larger amounts of mana), you're inefficiently playing your curve. Decks that are built without relying on Counterbalance, which was what I was referring to, should be able to handle whatever creature you're overpaying for without their Counterbalance... whether that be with Swords to Plowshares, Vedalken Shackles, or whatever. Even if you overpay for your guy, Counterbalance decks these days are extending their cc ranges. The 3 cc spot has become extremely important to cover lately, and Counterbalance decks are shoring up that range. Many decks with Counterbalance are running Jace now, so that's additions to the 4cc range, and in my Countertop Walker specifically, I'm at 4 Planeswalkers. Then you figure in the 4 Force of Will's, and you literally need to cast GSZ for at least 6 before you're guarunteed to sneak your guy through. AEther Vial doesn't have this issue.

GSZ being toolboxy has nothing to do with making Counterbalance weaker in the metagame. Also, more and more Counterbalance decks are running Counterspells in addition to their Counterbalances rather than Spell Snare. I'm not trying to discredit GSZ as being a good card because it is a good card, but GSZ has nothing to do with Counterbalances decline; AEther Vial does. If decks were only running GSZ and no AEther Vial, Counterbalance would still dominate the metagame like it did a few years back, and the Counterbalance decks would be running GSZ themselves to have an advantage in the mirror.

Counterbalance is most definitely the answer to resilient combo decks because Counterbalance is capable of dealing with every single combo deck; it's a very versatile answer that's not limited to one specific card or strategy. Why run Gaddock Teeg or Ethersworn Cannonist, which do nothing against Show and Tell or, oh I don't know, straight burn? My point is, Counterbalance is the best answer against combo decks after Force of Will.

A properly built control deck literally smashes midrange aggro decks, so I fail to see how a control deck with Counterbalance gets shut out by midrange aggro. Unless of course you are talking about midrange Vial Aggro, in which case I'm inclined to agree, but only until the Counterbalance control decks learn how to deal with Vial decks. The only midrange threat that comes to mind that would scare a control deck right now is Thrun, and there are still sideboard answers for the guy like Moat.


Aether Vial and Green Sun's Zenith turned Counterbalance and Spellsnare into shit over night

AEther Vial has been a presence for a very long time, and Counterbalance has still performed well because of the decks that enter the meta to prey on the Vial Aggro decks (like what combo is doing right now). This wasn't a meta shift over night, and the inclusion of GSZ isn't doing nearly what Vial already has to the Counterbalance strategy. Spell Snare... meh. Never really was a fan of the card.

Plus, both Vial and GSZ only make aggro get around Counterbalance. That doesn't include any of the other noncreature spells you want to cast. If you're running the type of threat density to make this irrelevant, you'd be running Vial instead of GSZ anyway.

[Final Fortune]

Spell Snare was the "best, worst" counter vs TES and co., now that TES can play around that counter with LED in play it's a lot harder for tempo decks to come up with actual answers to a threat instead of a tax. Bant and Merfolk are not putting up the numbers they should be game 1 vs. combo because they're completely relying on soft counters after Force of Will IMO.

[SlopeeJ]

What else are they suppose to rely on? What hard counter do you suggest that is playable in those decks?

The way high tide is performing is pretty scary. Force of will, mass mana/card draw and tutor for win conditions seems pretty strong

[(nameless one)]

Okay,

Instead of having blue as combo hate, why not run other colors? Black for Hand Disruption and White for Board Disruption. Both colors also has a lot of tools against the mentioned aggro decks above.

That said, you don't need blue to beat combo. Eli's Junk deck is a great example.

Besides, you can also run a plethora of non blue combo-hate cards from Chalice of the Void to Null Rod.

[emidln]

Chalice, Trinisphere, and Counterbalance are all a lot scarier than Force of Will for a combo player. The best tools a blue mage has against combo are Counterbalance, Brainstorm, and Sensei's Divining Top followed very closely by a fast clock.

[dahcmai]

What's funny is I think I'm actually on the right track to handling both the aggro and combo. That Caw Blade deck I am playing around with has main deck counterspells, Forces, and the Sword to provide some discard. It's not bad against combo, though Spell pierces and Canonist out of the board shore it up some. Moat in the main is obviously dumb for aggro so I am not losing much by being better against combo. It's a fairly fast control deck so it feels like playing fish. It seems to be a mid-ground in all this that actually works.

We have a heavy top tier deck meta around here. TES, Ant, Merfolk, Junk, Goblins, Dredge, Dreadstill, Team America, and even 2 people have 43 lands put together. It's a pretty good test format for what I play around with. We'd have an SI player if he'd ever play. : P (Yeah Dan, I know you read this stuff)

[Admiral_Arzar]

The big issue here, as already somewhat enumerated, is that the metagame is unfriendly toward decks that are good against combo. Counterbalance isn't particularly viable right now, as has already been stated. The decks that REALLY take a shit on combo, such as Team America, Tempo Threshold, Dragon Stompy, and Dreadstill, simply aren't good against a meta with both a heavy vial aggro presence, and lots of G/x bigdudes.dec. Once people realize that playing aggro is bad in this meta, those decks will be good again and combo will retreat. For now though, it's an amazing time to be a combo player ;).

Also: In B4 somebody suggests a ban on LED, Time Spiral, or any associated card.

EDIT: I find it hilarious that there's actually a thread complaining about the diversity of the format. Go out and enjoy the 43957987 different available decks...

[majikal]

The big issue here, as already somewhat enumerated, is that the metagame is unfriendly toward decks that are good against combo. Counterbalance isn't particularly viable right now, as has already been stated. The decks that REALLY take a shit on combo, such as Team America, Tempo Threshold, Dragon Stompy, and Dreadstill, simply aren't good against a meta with both a heavy vial aggro presence, and lots of G/x bigdudes.dec. Once people realize that playing aggro is bad in this meta, those decks will be good again and combo will retreat. For now though, it's an amazing time to be a combo player ;).

Also: In B4 somebody suggests a ban on LED, Time Spiral, or any associated card.
I think part of the problem is that the decks that are cheapest to build are vial aggro decks and G/x decks. It's not really an issue of people realizing these decks are bad and not playing them, because they are the go-to Legacy decks for a very large number of people who either can't afford or are unwilling to spend the money on other decks. As long as these decks remain popular, the decks you mentioned will remain unviable, and the combo issue will persist. Add to this the very wide range of combo decks making it near impossible to sideboard against all of them, and we end up with the current predicament.

I don't think banning anything will ever solve this problem, as it seems to be a result of the rising prices of staple cards, and it will only get worse unless some key staples are made more available or viable alternatives (or just better hate cards in general) are printed.


EDIT: I find it hilarious that there's actually a thread complaining about the diversity of the format. Go out and enjoy the 43957987 different available decks...
That's just the thing. The format only really gives the appearance of diversity, when in reality it's just a slurry of midrange-aggro and combo decks.

[Final Fortune]

What else are they suppose to rely on? What hard counter do you suggest that is playable in those decks?

The way high tide is performing is pretty scary. Force of will, mass mana/card draw and tutor for win conditions seems pretty strong

That's my point, there's nothing else to rely on because Spell Snare is awful vs Aeither Vial and Green Sun's Zenith and Spell Pierce is amazing vs Aether Vial and Green Sun's Zenith, so aggro-control has to play the sub-optimal counter MD and must play MD or SB cards that "shore up" the deck vs combo - Vendilion Clique, Meddling Mage and Enlightened Tutor and Co. respectively. Ux.dec actually has to respect Storm combo and SB for it now because they can't "lulz, Counterbalance!" they're way to a favorable match up (tho' I think they've still got a favorable match up once Enlightened Tutor is boarded in).

[Arsenal]

That's just the thing. The format only really gives the appearance of diversity, when in reality it's just a slurry of midrange-aggro and combo decks.

You're overgeneralizing to a fault. Yes, there are combo decks present, but each is unique; Painter, Cephalid, Dredge, Storm, High Tide, etc all play differently from each other. It isn't like everyone is just playing TES, TES, TES, TES, TES at every SCG Open.

Mid-range aggro? There are dozens of competitive mid-range aggro decks, across all colors, that use a variety of methods to win the game. It isn't a case where every tourney is Junk, Junk, Junk, Junk, Junk.

You make it sound as though there's a couple combo decks and a couple mid-range aggro decks, and they are all interchangable with each other within their archetype. You couldn't be more wrong.

[SMR0079]

"There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers."

This is the natural evolution of Legacy. The consistency of the SCG circuit has created a critical mass where we are now seeing a developed and mature format with a diverse array of combo decks. It makes perfect sense when you think about it. When you have a format with this many different types of threats coming from both Aggro and Combo why would you try and answer them all by playing Control, because you can't.

That being said, I think the trend is going so far toward Combo that a UW CounterThopter deck should do well in the near future. I have played CounterTop decks for a long time and I"m reluctant to do so even now simply because of the diversity of threats. Why grind out games all day long where you have to earn every win when you could be doing something broken that gets free wins? If you can't beat em, join em.

Another thing to take note of is the emergence of multiple resilient combo decks with Force of Will. This is the most powerful strategy in the game, which is compounded when you have more then one Force of Will Combo deck. Necro, Trix, High Tide (the original), Academy, and more recently Reanimator and Flash are all examples of this truism. For anyone interested in reading about this theory check out articles by zvi mowshowitz.

Also note that the two new kids on the block, Spiral Tide & Painted Stone, both have tutors that work formerly were not heavily played, but work uniquely with there strategy to the point of being almost broken: Merchant Scroll & Intuition.

Legacy is very resilient. The metagame will adapt and we should see more balance in the coming months. However, I do believe that the format has matured to the point where combo is here to stay as a much larger metagame force then it has been in the past.

[majikal]

You're overgeneralizing to a fault. Yes, there are combo decks present, but each is unique; Painter, Cephalid, Dredge, Storm, High Tide, etc all play differently from each other. It isn't like everyone is just playing TES, TES, TES, TES, TES at every SCG Open.

Mid-range aggro? There are dozens of competitive mid-range aggro decks, across all colors, that use a variety of methods to win the game. It isn't a case where every tourney is Junk, Junk, Junk, Junk, Junk.

You make it sound as though there's a couple combo decks and a couple mid-range aggro decks, and they are all interchangable with each other within their archetype. You couldn't be more wrong.
Just because Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors doesn't mean it's a good idea to eat nothing but ice cream.


"There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers."
This. We have reached a critical mass of combo decks, and at this point, most of the answers you pack will be the wrong ones.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I think part of the problem is that the decks that are cheapest to build are vial aggro decks and G/x decks. It's not really an issue of people realizing these decks are bad and not playing them, because they are the go-to Legacy decks for a very large number of people who either can't afford or are unwilling to spend the money on other decks. As long as these decks remain popular, the decks you mentioned will remain unviable, and the combo issue will persist. Add to this the very wide range of combo decks making it near impossible to sideboard against all of them, and we end up with the current predicament.

I don't think banning anything will ever solve this problem, as it seems to be a result of the rising prices of staple cards, and it will only get worse unless some key staples are made more available or viable alternatives (or just better hate cards in general) are printed.


That's just the thing. The format only really gives the appearance of diversity, when in reality it's just a slurry of midrange-aggro and combo decks.

A BUNCH of different midrange, aggro, and combo decks is a hell of a lot better than "Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, CB, maybe TES" like it was a few months ago. Keep in mind that like 30 different decks have made top 8 at the last half dozen 5ks.




Legacy is very resilient. The metagame will adapt and we should see more balance in the coming months. However, I do believe that the format has matured to the point where combo is here to stay as a much larger metagame force then it has been in the past.

QFT. I personally enjoy it, especially (and ironically) since this development flies in the face of WOTC's "policy" on combo (there's an Aaron Forsythe quote out there somewhere about how it should show up and win once in a while, but never be an established pillar of the metagame). Combo as a pillar of the metagame is something that hasn't existed since the banning of Mystical Tutor. I believe it should be an important force though, as this is an eternal format, and people like playing with powerful and complex strategies. Perhaps once the format settles a little (if it ever does) we'll see the return of dedicated control strategies to complete things.


You've missed the point entirely. Just because Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors of ice cream doesn't mean it's a good idea to eat nothing but ice cream.

We get it, you hate combo decks. Seriously, enough is enough.

[majikal]

We get it, you hate combo decks. Seriously, enough is enough.
Wow, anger problems much? I haven't said anywhere that I hate combo decks. I just think there are too many for the format to handle. When you've got ~10 different combo decks that are all making top 8 appearances, while G/x midrange decks are the only ones showing up with consistency, there's a problem. Control is nowhere in sight, and Vial Aggro has been thoroughly pushed into the lower tiers, placing occasionally but not with much regularity.

You may enjoy a metagame like that, but I don't think it's healthy.

[routlaw]

Is too much viable combo choices really a problem when you look at the overall scope of the Legacy metagame? There is a format outside of the big SCG events.

I mean, the "overall" picture worldwide for both big and small tournaments for March was this:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Legacy&fecha=2011-3

Seems fine. CBTop builds underperforming as the 4c builds can't adapt to both an uptick in vial aggro and Knight of the Reliquary beatdown decks.

I'd love to see the metagame breakdown for these events (Glenn Jones at SCG will eventually post them). One thing that jumps out at me is why the storm combo decks aren't doing better. They should be beating the other combo decks on speed and should definitely be beating the vial aggro (yes, even Merfolk), Dredge, and G/x beatdown decks. I wonder if there's a coming metagame shift for the SCG tourneys where some combo decks (in particular Storm and High Tide) make other combo decks less appealing, and then the SB hate from the fair decks can compensate to focus on those decks and hope to dodge the less played ones.

[majikal]

Is too much viable combo choices really a problem when you look at the overall scope of the Legacy metagame? There is a format outside of the big SCG events.
It depends on whether the format is able to regulate itself. The last few times combo has risen to the top, things just never cleared up for some reason. As of right now, I think there's a red flag waving that it could get out of hand if an answer isn't found, but I don't think we're in danger of the format suddenly exploding in a frenzy of combo on combo action.

[GGoober]

Guys, it's combo's time for now. Watch in 2 more SCG events, Countertop lists flood the Top8, then we bitch about Countertop for another month, then Vial decks come in and we bitch to ban Vial and Merfolks, then Zoo and GWx decks come in again.

The format is great right now. 1-2 tourneys don't tell you much about a metagame that's still fluctuating. It's not like Survival where we said "It's just 2 tournaments", and turned out to "It's just 10 tournaments", "It's just 50 tournaments", "Fuck, this is broken".

[ddt15]

CB/Top is also a combo, and one of the most boring ones in the game. At least now we don't have to wait 10 turns and a million shuffle effects for Jace to show up and get it over with.

[Arsenal]

CB/Top is also a combo, and one of the most boring ones in the game. At least now we don't have to wait 10 turns and a million shuffle effects for Jace to show up and get it over with.

Although it's a combo in the literal sense, CBTop is not "combo" in the same sense that AnT, TES, Belcher, Cephalid, Dredge, etc are. CBTop has synergy and interacts well with each other, but the same can be said of Brainstorm + fetchland, Stoneforge + equipment, etc.

[Final Fortune]

Wow, anger problems much? I haven't said anywhere that I hate combo decks. I just think there are too many for the format to handle. When you've got ~10 different combo decks that are all making top 8 appearances, while G/x midrange decks are the only ones showing up with consistency, there's a problem. Control is nowhere in sight, and Vial Aggro has been thoroughly pushed into the lower tiers, placing occasionally but not with much regularity.

You may enjoy a metagame like that, but I don't think it's healthy.

Control hasn't existed in Legacy since '07, and frankly fuck control, it's about as masterabotry as Storm combo except the decision trees are drastically simpler - at least aggro-control has the decency to interact by turning creatures sideways. Seriously, we've got Storm in Dark Ritual and Island variants, aggro-control in Ugw, Merfolk being it's usual metagame vs island.dec and G/w as the glass cannon vs Ugw and Merfolk with Counterbalance, Goblins and a ton of other tier 1.5 decks bringing up the rear. That's a decent metagame by any standard, because the glass cannon's are well positioned to move in and out of the metagame.

[Koby]

Wait until I unveil my Saproling Cluster + Ashnod's Altar + Fecundity + Goblin Bombardment combo, then you'll be sorry!

[majikal]

Control hasn't existed in Legacy since '07, and frankly fuck control, it's about as masterabotry as Storm combo except the decision trees are drastically simpler - at least aggro-control has the decency to interact by turning creatures sideways. Seriously, we've got Storm in Dark Ritual and Island variants, aggro-control in Ugw, Merfolk being it's usual metagame vs island.dec and G/w as the glass cannon vs Ugw and Merfolk with Counterbalance, Goblins and a ton of other tier 1.5 decks bringing up the rear. That's a decent metagame by any standard, because the glass cannon's are well positioned to move in and out of the metagame.
Except you're missing Dredge, Cephalid Breakfast, Elves, Painter, Belcher, and Burn (which is basically a combo deck) which are all also making Top8 appearances with some consistency right now.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Wow, anger problems much? I haven't said anywhere that I hate combo decks. I just think there are too many for the format to handle. When you've got ~10 different combo decks that are all making top 8 appearances, while G/x midrange decks are the only ones showing up with consistency, there's a problem. Control is nowhere in sight, and Vial Aggro has been thoroughly pushed into the lower tiers, placing occasionally but not with much regularity.

You may enjoy a metagame like that, but I don't think it's healthy.

Not anger problems. More like "exasperation," because these threads pop up every time combo comes out of its little corner and wins for a while. I'm not sure where you got the impression that the only non-combo decks making top eight appearances are G/x. Dozens of different decks have made T8 at 5ks recently, and unless I'm wrong there's no more than ten or so combo strategies among those. Sure, vial aggro and zoo aren't putting up the numbers they were, but they're also not massive chunks of tournaments as they were a few months ago. There is actual variety in deck choice, which makes things interesting. Of course, this also makes it difficult for aggro decks to sideboard enough hate to hate out all the different combo strategies. You may not think this meta is healthy, but I'm pretty happy that it isn't the Vial/Zoo/CB wankfest that we had right after the banning of Survival.


Except you're missing Dredge, Cephalid Breakfast, Elves, Painter, Belcher, and Burn (which is basically a combo deck) which are all also making Top8 appearances with some consistency right now.

Wait, Burn is a combo deck? Seriously, what screwed-up plane of existence are you living in right now? And Burn is taking advantage of the lack of CB. It's functionally an aggro deck that uses the stack, and so resists removal rather well, but is a dog to CB/Chalice.

[Arsenal]

Wait, Burn is a combo deck? Seriously, what screwed-up plane of existence are you living in right now? And Burn is taking advantage of the lack of CB. It's functionally an aggro deck that uses the stack, and so resists removal rather well, but is a dog to CB/Chalice.

Burn is essentially a combo deck. A pseudo-combo deck, but far closer to combo than a functional aggro deck. Burn goldfishes for turn 4 wins, uses the stack for non-creature spells, blanks opposing creature removal, but is fragile to CotV/CBTop... sounds like a combo deck to me.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Burn is essentially a combo deck. A pseudo-combo deck, but far closer to combo than a functional aggro deck. Burn goldfishes for turn 4 wins, uses the stack for non-creature spells, blanks opposing creature removal, but is fragile to CotV/CBTop... sounds like a combo deck to me.

Burn does not assemble a synergistic set of cards (a "combo") that sets up a game win. It simply slings creatures and spells at the opponent until they are dead. Sounds pretty damn close to the game-plan of Cat Sligh or any other fast, red-based aggro deck (Cat Sligh is basically half burn as is). Burn simply uses more burn spells and fewer creatures. Zoo and Sligh are also extremely fragile to CB/Chalice, and are obviously aggro. Meandeck MUD and Cephalid Breakfast are fragile to creature removal, and yet are considered combo decks. Your definition of combo is inherently flawed to begin with, so I suppose you could look at burn as combo.

As for goldfishing, Cat Sligh and Goblins can both goldfish turn 3 wins, but that definitely doesn't make them combo decks. Every non-control deck in legacy (pretty much) has a certain fundamental turn where they can win if the opponent is unable to interact. This has nothing to do with whether those decks are aggro or combo.

[majikal]

Burn does not assemble a synergistic set of cards (a "combo") that sets up a game win.
Yes it does. Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast.

[Arsenal]

Burn doesn't run any creatures. Just Mountains and a bunch of spells your opponent can't interact with. You must be thinking of Red Sligh if you're talking about lists with creatures.

Also, Burn is often considered a pseudo-combo deck because while it doesn't run a synergistic set of cards as you pointed out, the speed of kill and uninteractive method of winning the game often reminds people of combo. Majikal used the term "basically", I used the term "essentially" when describing Burn as a "combo" deck.

Burn, not Red Sligh as you're probably thinking, is far closer to a functional combo deck than a functional aggro deck.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Yes it does. Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast.

Seriously. That's like saying Zoo is a combo deck because it assembles 3 Wild Nacatls and a Tarmogoyf and wins with them.

A combo deck is, by definition, a deck that assembles a synergistic combination of cards that either wins the game immediately (most Storm decks, Cephalid Breakfast, Painter-Stone) or creates an unfair board state that wins the game in short order (Show and Tell.dec, Meandeck MUD, ReAnimator, often Dredge). Burn fulfills neither of these possible qualifications. What was this thread about again?


Burn doesn't run any creatures. Just Mountains and a bunch of spells your opponent can't interact with. You must be thinking of Red Sligh if you're talking about lists with creatures.

Also, Burn is often considered a pseudo-combo deck because while it doesn't run a synergistic set of cards as you pointed out, the speed of kill and uninteractive method of winning the game often reminds people of combo. Majikal used the term "basically", I used the term "essentially" when describing Burn as a "combo" deck.

Burn, not Red Sligh as you're probably thinking, is far closer to a functional combo deck than a functional aggro deck.

I don't think I've ever seen a Burn deck that didn't run creatures. Goblin Guide, Keldon Marauders, and Hellspark Elemental are the common ones. Red Sligh is something entirely different, running a balance of creatures and burn spells, but this discussion is far away from what this thread was initially supposed to discuss. I'm done with this pointless burn discussion.

[majikal]

Burn does win the game immediately. Just as soon as it burns the other guy to death.

You're getting far too worked up over this. Hasn't your doctor warned you that excessive anger can lead to heart attack or stroke?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Burn does win the game immediately. Just as soon as it burns the other guy to death.

You're getting far too worked up over this. Hasn't your doctor warned you that excessive anger can lead to heart attack or stroke?

I'm so angry right now that I'm grinning uncontrollably at this post :P

EDIT: http://diablo.incgamers.com/gallery/data/500/internet-cat.jpg

[SMR0079]

What's exasperting is spamming the thread with all of this nonsense when their is actually a decent debate or dialouge about the recent metagame shifts that SHOULD be occuring.

[The Treefolk Master]

I'm a bit surprised by the recent large amounts of combo, but I'm guessing they'll be pushed out from the metagame by resurgent CB Top decks, which will consequently be attacked by Aether Vial decks, which will merit a resurgence of combo, and so on and so forth. That is, if someone doesn't found something broken that breaks the cycle, or the combo decks can't be answered effectively by CB Top, or any other anomalies.

[ddt15]

I see people on starcity articles already asking to re-ban Time Spiral... seems a little soon doens't it? What I mean is play more merfolks!

[Admiral_Arzar]

What's exasperting is spamming the thread with all of this nonsense when their is actually a decent debate or dialouge about the recent metagame shifts that SHOULD be occuring.

Congratulations. You've succeeded in adding even less to the thread than the recent spam.


I'm a bit surprised by the recent large amounts of combo, but I'm guessing they'll be pushed out from the metagame by resurgent CB Top decks, which will consequently be attacked by Aether Vial decks, which will merit a resurgence of combo, and so on and so forth. That is, if someone doesn't found something broken that breaks the cycle, or the combo decks can't be answered effectively by CB Top, or any other anomalies.

QFT. Survival broke the cycle and thus got the axe (largely because people were too stupid to adapt IMO, but that's a moot point). Nothing in the current meta reflects such a situation.


I see people on starcity articles already asking to re-ban Time Spiral... seems a little soon doens't it? What I mean is play more merfolks!

This is what I like to call "Idiot Magic Player Syndrome" or IMPS for short. Essentially, this complex cosmic theory states that, rather than adapt and metagame to beat a deck they/their pet deck loses to, players will cry for said monstrous, unfair deck to be banhammered. Thus, they remove the need for themselves to excercise their inadequate gray matter and can return to playing *insert bad aggro deck* here without fear of combo-rape.

[Doomsday]

Now that's a sig-worthy post. Also I'm happily surprised by the poll results so far.

[Koby]

I voted yes, because I still remember most of the tier 3 combos that ran rampant around 2006-7 era. Now this isn't distinctly a bad thing, since Legacy is all about variety.

Of the combo decks, there's only 3 that I worry about:
1. Suicide (i.e. Belcher, S/I)
2. Mana engines (High Tide, Elves)
3. Storm (TES, ANT)

Most of these decks are easily managed with the right hatebear/control elements, but usually requires a FOW backup too. This doesn't leave much room for innovation however. Or Counterbalance.

I think the state of Combo in Legacy is at a healthy pass. The metashifts are really enjoyable IMO since I'd rather be guessing at what will win next rather than face Merfolk vs CBtop vs Zoo ad nauseum.

[ajfennewald]

This is what I like to call "Idiot Magic Player Syndrome" or IMPS for short. Essentially, this complex cosmic theory states that, rather than adapt and metagame to beat a deck they/their pet deck loses to, players will cry for said monstrous, unfair deck to be banhammered. Thus, they remove the need for themselves to excercise their inadequate gray matter and can return to playing *insert bad aggro deck* here without fear of combo-rape.
The thing is alot of casually completive players (including me) like the format becasue "bad aggro" decks are viable I think i would lose interest in playing legacy if there were no viable aggro decks. Of course the recent results don't necessarily indicate that is the case but just saying.

[Solar Ice]

I think the state of Combo in Legacy is at a healthy pass. The metashifts are really enjoyable IMO since I'd rather be guessing at what will win next rather than face Merfolk vs CBtop vs Zoo ad nauseum.

No pun intended, right? :D




This is what I like to call "Idiot Magic Player Syndrome" or IMPS for short. Essentially, this complex cosmic theory states that, rather than adapt and metagame to beat a deck they/their pet deck loses to, players will cry for said monstrous, unfair deck to be banhammered. Thus, they remove the need for themselves to excercise their inadequate gray matter and can return to playing *insert bad aggro deck* here without fear of combo-rape.

QFT.


@ Topic:

I don't see all the fuss. it seems that everytime that combo does well, people are up in arms, complaining that the meta is warped, calling for bans, etc. What's the deal? These are the same types of people that got cards like Mystical and Survival banned, because they couldn't be bothered to change their strategy. I see combo as any other type of deck just that, more often than not, the early game determines whether they win or lose. People complain about the level of interaction when facing a combo deck but how much interaction is there when a deck like Countertop assembles it's lock? Or Loam/Stax decks Wastelock you? (For some examples).

I don't see too many moan about the "unfairness" of Counterbalance or Loam... Fact is that most decks are a combination of cards/synergies one way or another, and when a deck chooses to specifically play out those strategies as quickly as possible as well as having some protection to do so, everybody is running scared.

Voted a resounding No.

[PunkRocker1134]

@ Topic:

I don't see all the fuss. it seems that everytime that combo does well, people are up in arms, complaining that the meta is warped, calling for bans, etc. What's the deal? These are the same types of people that got cards like Mystical and Survival banned, because they couldn't be bothered to change their strategy. I see combo as any other type of deck just that, more often than not, the early game determines whether they win or lose. People complain about the level of interaction when facing a combo deck but how much interaction is there when a deck like Countertop assembles it's lock? Or Loam/Stax decks Wastelock you? (For some examples).

I don't see too many moan about the "unfairness" of Counterbalance or Loam... Fact is that most decks are a combination of cards/synergies one way or another, and when a deck chooses to specifically play out those strategies as quickly as possible as well as having some protection to do so, everybody is running scared.

Voted a resounding No.

I 100% agree with the above

[SMR0079]

No pun intended, right? :D



QFT.


@ Topic:

I don't see all the fuss. it seems that everytime that combo does well, people are up in arms, complaining that the meta is warped, calling for bans, etc. What's the deal? These are the same types of people that got cards like Mystical and Survival banned, because they couldn't be bothered to change their strategy. I see combo as any other type of deck just that, more often than not, the early game determines whether they win or lose. People complain about the level of interaction when facing a combo deck but how much interaction is there when a deck like Countertop assembles it's lock? Or Loam/Stax decks Wastelock you? (For some examples).

I don't see too many moan about the "unfairness" of Counterbalance or Loam... Fact is that most decks are a combination of cards/synergies one way or another, and when a deck chooses to specifically play out those strategies as quickly as possible as well as having some protection to do so, everybody is running scared.

Voted a resounding No.

For sure, but I don't think you can lump Survial into this categorey. It dominated the top 8 results for months before it was banned, whereas now we may have a wave of combo doing well but no one deck is dominating.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I just read through the thread and its true, majikal does hate storm combo (I know him in real life). And the decks he plays used to be favorable against certain combo matchups but now, while playing the decks he enjoys playing, he feels there are no ways to make his Bant whatever stuff work against everything. I agree, being a combo player there are certain matchups I just say fuck em' and build my board to maximize my chances of winning more favorable matchups. But, because when playing "fair" and attacking with creatures in a deck packing Force of Will, you do not have the chance to do broken things like combo. There is no .. oops I win factor. These aggro control decks can't just flat out win, and that is what gives combo it's edge.

I can understand the frustration, but since you like attacking with Rhox War Monk and I like casting Tendrils .... what are u gonna do? However, the format is totally balanced IMOP. Because there is not 1 deck that dominates any more than the rest. Goblins, with a decent SB and fast draws CAN outrace combo, as can NO Elves. It is just impossible for any deck to be good against the whole format, which I think is the way it should be. As things stand, any deck can win with a good build and SB and semi-decent matchups. And thats 2 many variables for the blue players to take into consideration since you can't be good against EVERYONE. Welcome to how combo players have felt since the IGGY Pop days, we build SBs that are good against what we expect to face and do our best to win. You can't focus on every hate card: Trinisphere, Chalice, Teeg, Canonist, Null Rod, Meddling Mage, Mindbreak Trap etc. but you play what you want in the main and build a SB that is capable of dealing with the hate you don't want to see. Is there a way to anticipate everything .... fuck no, you just accept that you will lose certain matchups and act accordingly.

[edgarps22]

One strategy I have adopted is to just stop running Mindbreak Trap. As a goblin player I would rather just run cabal therapy. A good combo player will just play around things like trap, and counter magic. TES for instance will either duress the trap out of your hand or start with a silence/chant. This makes things like Mindbreak Trap just meaningless. Instead use cards like Chalice of the Void, Krosan Grip, I mention K-grip because if they mess up you can blow them out by nailing an LED, and other discarding effects, or spell pierces. Countering the early mana source is crucial and any lifegain can produce many hazards for decks like TES and ANT. High Tide is a beast on its own, but good hand disruption and correct use of counter magic can also just win that match-up as well, though it is harder to beat them with just chalice etc.

I personally play goblins in an environment that has Belcher, Dream Halls, Dredge, and TES, and I do just fine. Just play smarter and look for your outs, sometimes it is as simple as just boarding properly, with more general solutions like Duress effects. Overall I love this format and its sheer diversity is mind blowing. Right now some of the best cards to run are in Black and simple artifacts like Chalice. The combination can make life very painful for any combo player, and if you play tight, it puts the pressure on them to not screw up without losing.

Right now a good deck to try out if you haven't already is Team America, as it is well positioned to deal with all of the combo decks, including Dredge, as long as you remember to pack your graveyard hate. I say that because Team America plays very similarly to classic Psychatog and can be built with an extreme disruption package that can easily take combo right out of the match before it ever really began, as well as maintain a favorable position against most decks. Having access to green for K-grip, black for discard effects, and blue for Force is just monstrous, the trick is to just play your disruption correctly and keep your play tight.

A good list of cards to try out if your current sideboard options aren't working well:

Phyrexian Revoker - any deck can use him, and wow does he hose combo badly (psst yes he is vulnerable to removal, but combo doesn't usually run much of that)
Chalice of the Void - no explanation needed
Thorn of Amethyst - Also doesn't really need an explanation
Trinisphere - if you have fast mana this can cripple a combo deck

And those are the best colorless choices that can fit into almost any deck, with exception of Trinisphere as that can sometimes not hit the field fast enough.

Basically just build your deck around facing combo if you know it is going to come in and be annoying, or if you feel your deck cannot handle the combo match-up, play a different deck that can. There is certainly no lack of choices.

[Beatusnox]

If you know that storm/Painter or hell even burn is going to be a huge PITA for a tournament's meta and you are that afraid of it, Sideboard Leyline of Sanctity and keep going?

[TUMBLES]

I see people on starcity articles already asking to re-ban Time Spiral... seems a little soon doens't it? What I mean is play more merfolks!

Yea, absolutely ridiculous.

There's so much premature complaining.

[nwong]

On the one hand, a diverse format is awesome.

On the other, I hate combo.

So yes and no.

[Admiral_Arzar]

On the one hand, a diverse format is awesome.

On the other, I hate combo.

So yes and no.

The best way to solve this problem is to join the dark side and play it yourself. Come on over, we've got jackets.

[Ninakoru]

Right now the format is fluctuating, something that makes it more appealing. I love to see how Tier 1.5 decks can make a place into the top 8s. That's what really makes the format healthy.

And is curious how winning with aggro seems more legit than winning with combo.

Having lots of combo decks makes sense with them boarding the tops, as no one can SB effectively against all of them.

Regards.

[Mr. Safety]

The best way to solve this problem is to join the dark side and play it yourself. Come on over, we've got jackets.

+ .5

The best way to solve the combo problem is to play it yourself to LEARN HOW TO BEAT IT. If you really want to be good at magic (which I am not...) then learn how to master each pillar of the format (aggro, control, combo) and even delve into the sub-types (tempo, aggro/combo, combo/control, sligh, mid-range aggro/control). Why do this? You can confidently play any type of deck and perform well based on experience. Some of the best players in the world sometimes bring the 'wrong' deck to a tournament...and STILL finish well because of playskill (although if they finish well, wouldn't that make a deck the 'right' deck to bring? I'm retarded....)

[Stinky-Dinkins]

I personally wouldn't mind a couple more viable combo decks, and I play all types. I think it's a tremendous part of what makes the game so fun to play in general...

I also love carefully poring over old, forgotten cards every time a new set is released hoping to find a new key that suddenly works with a new card. Some completely unused thing (like Didgeridoo, etc.) It never happens for me obviously as the starting pool of new cards from each new set that are legacy-capable are so few, and some other [smarter] person would almost definitely beat me to the punch... but I still love that shit.

Combo can be annoying, and it can feel "unfair," but the bottom line is the game wouldn't be what it is without its presence.