SCG Article - DOOM on Time Spiral!!!

[GGoober]

So here's an article spelling the overpoweredness of Time Spiral.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21599_The_Icy_Grip_A_Look_At_True_Control_In_Legacy.html

I personally don't see how the following statement makes any sense:

"The obvious reason is that drawing seven cards and untapping all your lands is unfair, especially with the tools available. The second reason is the same one that caused a ban of Sensei's Divining Top…games go too long. I watched Jesse Hatfield play against Todd Anderson in the Top 8 and observed a game go over thirty minutes…excuse me, I meant a turn went over thirty minutes."

The first sentence is vague beyond belief "especially with the tools available", care to explain a little more? Time Spiral is still a 6cmc spell, at best powered out on turn 3. The only benefit it has above ANT/TES is the counterpackage which argubly is weaker than the discard pacakage that TES/ANT plays. The biggest strength I feel in Time Spiral decks is its ability to dodge hate more effectively while TES/ANT are pushed out by the combo-hating decks.

I don't see how drawing seven cards and untapping all your lands is unfair. Maybe that's why he's playing Sword of Feast of Famine in his control list (an interesting list btw but I feel that playing 4 Chrome Mox in control is already a wrong move i.e. card disadvantage for minimal value gained, not to mention using Chrome Mox is almost directly anti-synergistic to playing with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas).

Anyway, just my thoughts! Not every article is going to be awesome, and this is one article where I disagreed with some points and a decklist, and mainly about him whining about Time Spiral and control decks being unviable in Legacy. At least I think that a control deck packing 4 Chrome Mox isn't going to be viable, unless you pair that card disadvantage up with a card advantage engine e.g. Bob. He does run some TfKs though, so, shrugs!

[GGoober]

LOL yeah I forgot to mention that part too, because that's not necessarily a right/wrong answer. It depends what decks you're playing against and what other cards you have in your hand. I usually don't drop Ringleaders early too, but it all depends, if my opponent is playing a lot of land-destruction and discard, you would probably want to drop that Ringleader ASAP, all situational again.

What I found was most funny was his statement that control is no longer viable because they go turn 1 Lackey, drop dude, you lose. In fact, I think that only a control deck has the best answer against Lackey (4 StP, 4 FoW). Any non-control deck not playing StP/FoW can drop a dude to block lackey which most likely gets bounced/edicted and you proceed to lose. It's much easier to fight Lackey in a control shell than in a non-control shell, unless you play with FoW/Dazes i.e. once again proving the point control isn't weak to his goblin scenario. And for people who still haven't figured out how to beat gobs in a control shell, run Humility and EPlague for god's sake. Counter the ringleader and no other goblins. StP the lackey, Firespout when you need to but if you don't counter the Ringleader, you probably lost.

EDIT: If I was high thinking that pairing Chrome Mox with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas was disynergistic, i'm not sure about pairing Chalice of the Void in a deck playing Brainstorms and StP, and he talks about control being unviable!!!

[Koby]

Time Spiral decks took down 2 SCG Opens... not quite. Two Hatfield's took down 2 opens.

I think I spot the problem here... Ban Hatfields ;)

[(nameless one)]

My post got deleted?

But ya, Droping a Ringleader off of a Lackey on turn 2 is a bad move and as a control player, control does have the best tools to deal with a first turn Lackey.

[Admiral_Arzar]

*Yawn*

The Lackey->Ringleader thing already had my convinced this guy was an idiot, and then I read the part about Time Spiral. Really? Spiral Tide = Hulk Flash? What kind of fucked-up, drug-laden, alternate universe of faerie rape does this guy live in?

[GradStudentGuy]

This article is a little ridiculous. Timespiral is not at the power level that requires banning. A resolved timesprial does not guarantee you the game at all. You can draw seven non useful spells or lands and fizzle on the spot. You can also refill your opponents hands with FOW. Furthermore a turn 3-4 combo is fair. Decks like affinity and Dredge have very favorable match ups against High Tides.

[Piceli89]

What an idiot. Nuff said.

[warallthetimne]

The deck still works without timespiral so banning really does nothing.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

The deck still works without timespiral so banning really does nothing.

Thats why everyone was playing spring tide before they unbanned time spiral, right?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Thats why everyone was playing spring tide before they unbanned time spiral, right?

It's playable but inferior without the card, obviously. The question is, why are people bitching and moaning about a T3-T4 combo deck? This is legacy, you can die on turn 1 for crying out loud.

[death]

The deck is strong and is only starting to become popular. I believe people are whining not because the deck is dominating but simply because Candelabras became too pricey and they weren't able to acquire a playset when they had the chance. Meanwhile Ichorid is laughing at the corner, whoopin' anyone caught on their feet with no clue of what's going to hit them.

[Admiral_Arzar]

The deck is strong and is only starting to become popular. I believe people are whining not because the deck is dominating but simply because Candelabras became too pricey and they weren't able to acquire a playset when they had the chance. Meanwhile Ichorid is laughing at the corner, whoopin' anyone caught on their feet with no clue of what's going to hit them.

LOL. It certainly does deflect attention from other combo decks, which is interesting as there's so many right now (and some may or may not be better than Tide). I kind of want to cycle through every combo deck that's viable right now, and just find out which one takes my meta by surprise in the most thorough fashion.

[3eowulf]

I believe my signature can easily be applied to this article.

1- Who is him? Looking at his other articles he seems a constructed player... has he ever played in a legacy tournament?
2- Isn't he ashamed of posting a decklist like that? If that should resemble how a controls deck looks like to him, I'm not seriously going to consider any of his statemens about legacy. Sorry.

[voltron00x]

I skipped a week this week, but my next article talks about Time Spiral. I’m pretty much in the camp that says that minus the Hatfields, we’re not even having this conversation. It’s a really solid deck among many other really solid decks.

Also, AHHHHHHHH!!!!! I CAN’T PLAY THE EXACT DECK I LIKE! BAN THINGS!!!! BAN THEM ALL!!!!!!

Etc.

[Tammit67]

I skipped a week this week, but my next article talks about Time Spiral. I’m pretty much in the camp that says that minus the Hatfields, we’re not even having this conversation. It’s a really solid deck among many other really solid decks.

Also, AHHHHHHHH!!!!! I CAN’T PLAY THE EXACT DECK I LIKE! BAN THINGS!!!! BAN THEM ALL!!!!!!

Etc.

Well that's good. Maybe we can generate some real talk then

[Michael Keller]

Just to reiterate that aside from the Hatfields, Ben Wienburg also came in 10th place with High Tide at Atlanta, Gerry Thompson came in 22nd at Memphis, and Kyle Morin 9th at Edison.

Also, on a somewhat related topic, Meditate at Star City is almost up to $10.00 now.

[Hanni]

The sky is falling!!!!1!! BAN NOW!!!1!!

[voltron00x]

Just to reiterate that aside from the Hatfields, Ben Wienburg also came in 10th place with High Tide at Atlanta, Gerry Thompson came in 22nd at Memphis, and Kyle Morin 9th at Edison.

Also, on a somewhat related topic, Meditate at Star City is almost up to $10.00 now.

I told y'all to stock up on Meditates.

Also, I have to admit I don't know Kyle Morin, but that Gerry guy is pretty good, and that Wienburg fellow is also no slouch. You could replace "High Tide" with any viable deck and none of those finishes would shock anyone, which is kind of the point.

[Michael Keller]

I told y'all to stock up on Meditates.

Also, I have to admit I don't know Kyle Morin, but that Gerry guy is pretty good, and that Wienburg fellow is also no slouch. You could replace "High Tide" with any viable deck and none of those finishes would shock anyone, which is kind of the point.

Actually it matters more than you might think, because no matter how good each of those aforementioned might be, it doesn't change the fact the deck itself placed very high in these string of events and I would venture to state the obvious that the value of the deck is what kept even slightly above-average players from picking up the cards to pilot it. Just because Candelabra of Tawnos' aren't easily accesible doesn't mean the deck isn't ridiculous to begin with.

Now that people have seen what the deck can genuinely do on a grand stage, it will become moot whoever pilots the deck as long as they play well. Candelabra may be a "niche" card, but again - it doesn't mean the card (or deck for that matter) isn't broken just because Thompson or Wienburg are running it.

[voltron00x]

Actually it matters more than you might think, because no matter how good each of those aforementioned might be, it doesn't change the fact the deck itself placed very high in these string of events and I would venture to state the obvious that the value of the deck is what kept even slightly above-average players from picking up the cards to pilot it. Just because Candelabra of Tawnos' aren't easily accesible doesn't mean the deck isn't ridiculous to begin with.

Now that people have seen what the deck can genuinely do on a grand stage, it will become moot whoever pilots the deck as long as they play well. Candelabra may be a "niche" card, but again - it doesn't mean the card isn't broken just because Thompson or Wienburg are running it.

See, the thing is, that's what people said about TES, and ANT, and Reanimator, and so on, but it didn't come true. The format adapted AND people not as skilled didn't replicate those results. With regard to this deck, I'm not convinced the exact same thing isn't happening. Great players playing great decks before the format adapts always do well, period. Sure, the deck's damn good, and so are, what, 15-20 other decks?

[Michael Keller]

See, the thing is, that's what people said about TES, and ANT, and Reanimator, and so on, but it didn't come true. The format adapted AND people not as skilled didn't replicate those results. With regard to this deck, I'm not convinced the exact same thing isn't happening. Great players playing great decks before the format adopts always do well, period. Sure, the deck's damn good, and so are, what, 15-20 other decks?

T.E.S. and Reanimator are much more vulnerable to hate than this deck is. Spiral Tide is able to sustain a large amount of hate due to the copious amount of draw and cantrip and unlike the decks you mentioned, and it doesn't require non-basic lands or an aggressive mulligan strategy to win games. A.N.T. and T.E.S. run their own selection of draw and cantrip, but they can hardly touch what this deck packs in its punches: the absurd ability to replenish itself and just win on the spot with a top-deck like Alix and Jesse were able to pull off. And even then, they sustained a critical amount of card-disadvantage when their opponents cast Hymns and Duresses against them like it was nothing. It's far easier for this deck to just win than those aforementioned as it doesn't just draw into unnecessary acceleration but sculpts its hands more evenly than any of those decks could ever do.

The question here is whether or not we can attribute the deck's recent string of success to the Hatfields based solely on their power of play, or what the deck itself is capable of doing on its own. And anyone who has played with or against this archetype in a similar fashion knows that the deck runs essentially on autopilot until the pivotal moment where the deck's pilot decides to "go off" and just win on the spot. Those combo decks you mentioned have the ability to sustain this action, but they are much more vulnerable to generic hate in the long-run and a deck like this which can replenish its hand and trick opponents into believing they are winning a "non-existent" battle (where life doesn't matter as it does in Reanimator with 'Reanimate' and in T.E.S. or A.N.T. with 'Ad Nauseam') is what gives Spiral Tide the advantage in the end.

The twenty life-points in Spiral Tide are almost like four(+) free Time Walks. You can't beat that.

[Admiral_Arzar]

T.E.S. and Reanimator are much more vulnerable to hate than this deck is. Spiral Tide is able to sustain a large amount of hate due to the copious amount of draw and cantrip and unlike the decks you mentioned, and it doesn't require non-basic lands or an aggressive mulligan strategy to win games. A.N.T. and T.E.S. run their own selection of draw and cantrip, but they can hardly touch what this deck packs in its punches: the absurd ability to replenish itself and just win on the spot with a top-deck like Alix and Jesse were able to pull off. And even then, they sustained a critical amount of card-disadvantage when their opponents cast Hymns and Duresses against them like it was nothing. It's far easier for this deck to just win than those aforementioned as it doesn't just draw into unnecessary acceleration but sculpts its hands more evenly than any of those decks could ever do.

The question here is whether or not we can attribute the deck's recent string of success to the Hatfields based solely on their power of play, or what the deck itself is capable of doing on its own. And anyone who has played with or against this archetype in a similar fashion knows that the deck runs essentially on autopilot until the pivotal moment where the deck's pilot decides to "go off" and just win on the spot. Those combo decks you mentioned have the ability to sustain this action, but they are much more vulnerable to generic hate in the long-run and a deck like this which can replenish its hand and trick opponents into believing they are winning a "non-existent" battle (where life doesn't matter as it does in Reanimator with 'Reanimate' and in T.E.S. or A.N.T. with 'Ad Nauseam') is what gives Spiral Tide the advantage in the end.

ANT and TES are capable of fighting this hate easily as well though. Playing TES (and I'm by no means a great TES player) I once fought through 4 Hymns, a Thoughtseize, a Moon effect, and a Pyrostatic Pillar in one game to pull out the win, because my opponent was unable to come up with a fast clock. The last time I played Tide I lost to one topdecked Hymn hitting both High Tide and Time Spiral. And let's not even get into what Extirpate does to tide combo...

As you said though, life doesn't matter much to Tide, which is nice. However, the deck makes up for that by being a turn or two slower than other storm combo. I don't think the deck is honestly any better than TES, it's simply resilient to different forms of hate.

[voltron00x]

ANT runs more cantrips than Spiral Tide. The "draw" in the deck is Meditate. What are you talking about in that post?

And top-decks? Are we seriously talking about whether ANT and TES have top-decks? Go watch the TES vs Burn match-up G3 from Top 8 in LA. Mountain, Goblin Guide, attack, trigger revealing LED, pass. That LED? That was a top-deck for the win.

Edit: post directed at Hollywood if that isn't clear

[Admiral_Arzar]

ANT runs more cantrips than Spiral Tide. The "draw" in the deck is Meditate. What are you talking about in that post?

And top-decks? Are we seriously talking about whether ANT and TES have top-decks? Go watch the TES vs Burn match-up G3 from Top 8 in LA. Mountain, Goblin Guide, attack, trigger revealing LED, pass. That LED? That was a top-deck for the win.

And combo deck (or deck for that matter) can topdeck a win, especially those with powerful engine cards like Ad Nauseum or Time Spiral. This is not something that particularly worries me, although it was pretty funny when Alix Hatfield's opponent decided not to cut his deck and he ripped Time Spiral off the top ftw.

[GGoober]

T.E.S. and Reanimator are much more vulnerable to hate than this deck is. Spiral Tide is able to sustain a large amount of hate due to the copious amount of draw and cantrip and unlike the decks you mentioned, and it doesn't require non-basic lands or an aggressive mulligan strategy to win games. A.N.T. and T.E.S. run their own selection of draw and cantrip, but they can hardly touch what this deck packs in its punches: the absurd ability to replenish itself and just win on the spot with a top-deck like Alix and Jesse were able to pull off. And even then, they sustained a critical amount of card-disadvantage when their opponents cast Hymns and Duresses against them like it was nothing. It's far easier for this deck to just win than those aforementioned as it doesn't just draw into unnecessary acceleration but sculpts its hands more evenly than any of those decks could ever do. e.g. my buddy in my playgroup for the worst of luck has gotten stomped by Goblins Turn 1 Lackey Turn 2 siege-gang multiple times now when playing Spiral Tide. If it were ANT/TES, being able to go off on turn 2 in this scenario would have secured wins where Spiral Tide never would have been able to.

The question here is whether or not we can attribute the deck's recent string of success to the Hatfields based solely on their power of play, or what the deck itself is capable of doing on its own. And anyone who has played with or against this archetype in a similar fashion knows that the deck runs essentially on autopilot until the pivotal moment where the deck's pilot decides to "go off" and just win on the spot. Those combo decks you mentioned have the ability to sustain this action, but they are much more vulnerable to generic hate in the long-run and a deck like this which can replenish its hand and trick opponents into believing they are winning a "non-existent" battle (where life doesn't matter as it does in Reanimator with 'Reanimate' and in T.E.S. or A.N.T. with 'Ad Nauseam') is what gives Spiral Tide the advantage in the end.

The twenty life-points in Spiral Tide are almost like four(+) free Time Walks. You can't beat that.


High Tide goldfishes 2 turns slower than most TES/ANT list, that's another huge factor to consider. The only reason I see High Tide being successful is because it is not hurt as much by the hate that TES/ANT faces, and it is specifically these decks that push out TES/ANT. It's true that High Tide is a more resilient combo deck, but its fundamental turn is still significantly slower, that is a big factor when the metagame shifts.

Lastly, if people really want to hate out Spiral Tide, it's quite simple: play Extirpates post-board (also with the rise of Ichorid, get some GY hate going guys!), and just play Solidarity. The reason why Time Spiral will probably never be banned is because when it gets popular, it's much easier to hate out that something like Survival. Just play Solidarity and go off on your opponent's Tide, you don't give a shit about Candelabras. Make them tap their Islands for you to win. That's IF Spiral Tide ever becomes that dominant (I'm not factoring Candelabra's cost factor in this analysis, i.e. assume Candles were cheap, you can still hate out Spiral Tide much easier than something like Survival, or the SCG writer's claim that Spiral Tide is the next thing closest to Hulk Flash! BBQSAUZ?)

[SpikeyMikey]

Just to reiterate that aside from the Hatfields, Ben Wienburg also came in 10th place with High Tide at Atlanta, Gerry Thompson came in 22nd at Memphis, and Kyle Morin 9th at Edison.

Also, on a somewhat related topic, Meditate at Star City is almost up to $10.00 now.

And Caleb Durward made how many T16's with painter/stone before it broke wide open? Jacob Baugh made like 3 T16's with spiral/tide sans candelabra. Yeah these guys run good lists but the reason the Hatfield's are famous is because they can win with nearly anything. The deck is no better than any other combo deck. Two very good players won Opens on the back of nuts peels and suddenly the sky is falling? C'mon Hollywood, you're smarter than that...

[Koby]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Alix Hatfield T8 at the GP with Zoo with Sylvan Library? Wasn't this brand new tech at the time?

[voltron00x]

I believe he made top 8 3 times with Zoo at SCG events, including a win in 2009. I guess we're lucky they never banned Wild Nacatl!!! Here's a search of Hatfield in the SCG database from 2/2009-4/2011, Legacy only:

Naya Zoo 1st place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2009-09-13 Charlotte, North Carolina, United States
High Tide 1st place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2011-03-06 Edison, New Jersey, United States
High Tide 1st place Jesse Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2011-04-03 Atlanta, Georgia, United States
CounterTop Threshold 2nd place Jesse Hatfield Grand Prix Trial 2009-03-01 Roanoke, Virginia, United States
High Tide 3rd place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2011-04-03 Atlanta, Georgia, United States
New Horizons 4th place Jesse Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-06-06 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States
Zoo 4th place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2009-06-21 Boston, Massachusetts, United States
Zoo 6th place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-02-28 Richmond, Virginia, United States
CounterTop Threshold 7th place Alix Hatfield Grand Prix Trial 2009-03-01 Roanoke, Virginia, United States
Ooze Survival 7th place Jesse Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-10-31 Charlotte, North Carolina, United States
Reanimator 8th place Jesse Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-05-02 Atlanta, Georgia, United States
Ooze Survival 9th place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-10-31 Charlotte, North Carolina, United States
Natural Horizons 11th place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2011-02-27 Washington, District of Columbia, United States
Reanimator 12th place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-05-02 Atlanta, Georgia, United States
U/G Survival 15th place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-09-19 Baltimore, Maryland, United States

[GGoober]

See, Zoo and High Tide was clearly more broken than Survival. If the Hatfields were that amazing at Legacy, they would have owned with a broken deck. We need to ban Nacatl ASAP, that or we can ban the Hatfields.

[ajfennewald]

Shouldn't high tide get out goldfished by fast aggro way more often than strom or other faster combo decks because it is relatively slow? I realize it is still faster but if its only by half a turn it should still lose fairly often?

[Rood]

High tide is already an amazingly good archtype at the moment. Combine that with some of the best legacy players in the format and that's a recipe for taking down Starcity tournaments.

[Final Fortune]

Meh, time for Sinkhole to make a come back.

[death]

Why spend $$ on Sinkholes when Smallpox is much better.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Quickly skimmed it.
Not going to read the article but...

Shaheen doesn't know dick about Legacy. He was a local player in VA and I went to high school with him. He's good at T2 and really good at draft (and I would guess he's good at Ext though I've never seen his play). He doesn't really play Legacy though, well at least he didn't as of 6 months ago. I've tried to talk to him about Legacy before and some of his ideas were shaky to say the least. I know for a fact he took Belcher to the GP and went 0-X drop which should be all you need to know about his grasp on the meta as of the Summer. IMO it takes at least a year of following Legacy before you can consider writing an article about what's wrong with the format.

Not trying to be a dick rider, but if there was a Legacy Hall of Fame Alix Hatfield would be in it. Just look at his list of top 8's over the past 2 years. It's more Eternal tournaments then most of the people on these forums have even been to in the same time frame. Saying that a deck is too good just because Hatfield wins with it is like saying a basketball was too easy to shoot in the 90's because Michael Jordan hit so many fade away jump shots.

[Jason]

I think this conversation has diverted from the true problem with his article: his UW control list. Here's a few things I can list off that are completely wrong with his deck:
1. His "control" deck has only 19 lands; yes 23 mana sources... but (this leads me to the next problem)
2. Chrome Mox in a control shell is awful. You already lose in card advantage in Force of Will (which is a turn 1-2 card). Now he's going to be down -4 just to be able to do... what exactly? Oh, he wants to (next problem)
3. Cast Chalice of the Void presumably @ one. (next problem)
4. This turns off his Swords to Plowshares making the aggro match-up that he was trying to fix completely atrocious.

1-2 Path to Exile, 4 Swords to Plowshares and 4 Force of Will is generally enough to make it to turn 4 when you can start casting bombs.

As for his problems against combo, he is playing main deck Chalice of the Void and has access to turn 1 Counterspell (omg! Blowout!). Unfortunately, the deck has no clock, at least one that isn't super mana intensive.

His list looks super clunky, plays bad cards, doesn't have enough lands and can't actually beat a deck packing discard effects. Seems like a bad version of Caw Blade to me (hint: I'd rather play that in Legacy than his pile of garbage).

On the upside, he is playing Cunning Wish. I wasn't sold on the card until I did some testing tonight and was really wanting back in my main deck... so his article isn't completely useless. It reminded me what cards I need for a wishboard. Wait... Disenchant over Dismantling Blow? *sigh

[SlopeeJ]

I didn't read the whole article, but I did read his rant on the bottom about banning time spiral. First off, didn't most of you say survival was fine?

I'm not saying time spiral needs to be banned, but it is def very powerful and it truly sucks to play against. Having your opp play with themselves the whole round is pretty stupid. A combo deck that has this much card draw, tutors for win conditions, stable mana base, not just force but pact and tutors for pacts/force is pretty strong. The thing I mostly don't like about time spiral is merchant scroll, seems just like mystical tutor to me in the deck. Yes I'm aware 2mana sorcery and only gets instants, but it still tutors for the powerful cards.

Gonna be interesting if it keeps winning and how everything will unfold

[Jonathan Alexander]

If you really need to beat Spiral Tide, then play something with Natural Order. Resolving that card against before turn four usually means that you win. They get blown out by Terrastodon so hard, it's not even funny. You can either play something like AJ Sacher's Bant list or even Aggro Elves with Natural Order and Green Sun's Zenith. Just playing straight aggro doesn't seem like a particularly good idea to me. Since they can win on turn four rather easily, you might not always be able to race them. Naya Sligh with some amount of Red Elemental Blasts and perhaps some Gaddock Teegs in the sideboard might have a shot though.

[Crysthorn]

High Tide goldfishes 2 turns slower than most TES/ANT list, that's another huge factor to consider.
[...]
Lastly, if people really want to hate out Spiral Tide, it's quite simple: play Extirpates post-board (also with the rise of Ichorid, get some GY hate going guys!), and just play Solidarity. The reason why Time Spiral will probably never be banned is because when it gets popular, it's much easier to hate out that something like Survival. Just play Solidarity and go off on your opponent's Tide, you don't give a shit about Candelabras. Make them tap their Islands for you to win.
Before I start, a small disclaimer: I don't think that Time Spiral needs to be rebanned and I don't think it's the next Survival (at least not yet). However, I notice a strangely familiar pattern in your post...

See, when I read posts like yours, I have an irresistible feeling of déjà vu. When Survival was tearing the metagame left and right, half of the Sourcers wrote things very similar to yours: "it's slow and doesn't kill before turn 3, most likely before turn 4", "just FoW or Krosan Grip the Survival and you're all good", "just Extirpate the Vengevines and they're cooked", "just play ANT/TES/Enchantress/whatever and curbstomp them" and so on. As it turned out, none of these statements really mattered because Survival decks were extremely resilient and could win through a million obstacles (I still remember GerryT succesfully racing turn 2 Progenitus without even having Survival of the Fittest in play...).

With Spiral Tide it's mostly the same: yeah, it's relatively slow and theoretically could be hated in multiple ways. So what? I've seen Hatfields win through multiple Hymns and Thoughtseizes, through Trinispheres and Lodestone Golems, through giving their opponent FoW and a blue card after resolving Time Spiral... The list goes on. Time will tell but actually I wouldn't be surprised at all if half of the GP Providence Top 8 were Spiral Tides.

[dahcmai]

It's really more of a reaction of people's sideboards in my book. Ask to see a random player's sideboard sometime and check how many cards are good against combo. At most it's usually 4 unless they have a severe hatred of the decks. If it's a typical player, I usually see two cards halfway worth a crap vs combo and nothing else. Maybe a Krosan grip or something at best past that. It's not real surprising that people board less for it now with TES, ANT, and Belcher all putting up meh numbers.

[Shabbaman]

I skipped a week this week.

You ruined my Friday reading pleasure ;)

[Piceli89]

While I'll concede that this new kid on the block, Spiral Tide, is absurdly good (I play it and I'm pretty confident I can win against everything in Legacy right now), people should just learn which are the deck's weaknesses. The real problem, as with any other combo deck that pops up, is that people prefer to focus on beating the other archetypes and usually ignore combo because, well, "you'll meet 1 combo each 9 rounds", "it folds to Cannonist or double discard" or BS like that.

There's no doubt on it being better than ANT and TES, since Time Spiral is so broken that it can be considered a 85%-success Ad Nauseam that doesn't care about lives and doesn't decrease its effectiveness. Spiral Tide is built to be a mid-game combo deck that packs redundancy and consistency at a great level. You can't expect to fold it with a single piece of hate if you don't follow with anything else. This is valid for any other combo deck, barring Belcher.

What I've found out, especially for those SCG lists that are really slower than the Cloud of Faeries versions, is that they tend to have a bit of difficulty against fast aggro (Cat Sligh-Wild Nacatl/Lynx+ Burn), because they're built to be consistent and they sacrifice a bit of speed.
Being forced to go off on turn 3 is really risky because it weakens the effectiveness of Candelabra, especially on a lone High Tide, and they must rely on finding a Time Spiral in time before being killed. Now, Time Spiral on 3 lands is pretty likely to fizzle, too, if they don't manage to find a second HT, and chaining multiples Meditate is really risky considering that you're spending half of your mana and you cut yourself out of Turnabout (3 on 6, 3 remaining).

Also, look at those lists. They are crafted on playing in a disruption metagame, black (Dark Horizons) or blue. They run 3 Meditates which are great against those decks but pretty weak against aggro. They only play 4 Force of Wll as protection.
Putting a fast clock with moderate disruption suite really hurt this deck. This deck aims to cantrip to find the right cards withing the first 2-3 turns, and giving it short time means it does not manage to gather all the resources (protection) to go off through some Mindbreak Trap or REB/Silence. My thought is that you don't need more than 4 sb slots to properly fight Tide combo if you're already fast enough maindeck or run any other form of disruption. Fast clock is one of them.
Hell, even Spell Pierce on High Tide means you'll have to have 2 to 4 mana more to go on, and often leads to not being able to succeed.


You people should stop complaining about Spiral Tide being so broken that it survives multiple discard, because every good players should know that you cripple combo with reactive disruption, while proactive can easily be fought with a good use of cantrips or replenishing hands with Meditate. Luck happens, but that's what you get when playing combo: random wins pulled out off bad situations.
The fact that this deck needs to protect 2 cards to go off, also, makes the "strip your hand" quite utopistic. Sure, there are times when Hymn to Tourach will take out your Tide and Spiral, but usually those decks can be easily defeated in the end if they don't follow with a good clock, just by recovering and chaining cantrips. That's why saying that Pox would take down Spiral Tide is a mistake, because it means thinking that you can beat combo with a worse, sorcery-speed version of Landstill.

[Sigar]

2. Chrome Mox in a control shell is awful.


How ignorant and narrowminded.

[Bobinga]

hey guys- i'm just getting back into the game from a 5-year hiatus.

Piceli89 this was originally intended for you but your inbox is full or something similar.

i just started testing high tide today. i just recently got back into the game but i've been doing my research on legacy. i've been using the hatfield's most recent list (with intuition instead of the 2nd MoM) and here are a few things i've considered changing:

1. fetch to island ratio. i feel like more fetches is better, because you have more shuffle effects for your brainstorms and sometimes ponders. obviously this opens you up more to stifle but i feel it might be worth it.

2. cutting the MoM and maindeck BSZ for 2 preordain. my reasoning behind this is that MoM and the maindeck BSZ are win-more cards. by having 2 extra cantrips, you improve your chances of going offl in time and also (thought not as important) decrease your chances of bricking on a time spiral. you obviously can't merchant scroll for BSZ then, but usually when i'm ready to cast BSZ i dont mind spending the extra 3 mana to merchant scroll for cunning wish for BSZ.

let me know your thoughts- and i'd love to see the list you've been playing with.

brent

[Bobinga]

also, you mentioned a cloud of faeires version- could you post that? it seems like its not optimal but it'd definitely be easier on the wallet

[death]

Welcome to TheSource, we have threads for discussing the deck itself on this forum:

[Old] Spiral Tide (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19565-Spiral-Tide&highlight=spiral+Tide)thread and [PRIMER] Spiral Tide (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20172-[PRIMER]-Spiral-Tide&highlight=spiral+Tide)thread

Before posting, I would advise you to read the "Site Rules for TheSource (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS)" posted by Bardo first.

[klaus]

His list does not feature Academy Ruins...

Also: Tezzeret needs more artifacts to be worth his mana cost

Chalice + BS & STP has already been called..

1 single basic land in a list that is very mana hungry?

This list sucks, which is double sad, because finishing of his more than debatable statesments with a nice creative list might have given more weight to his thoughts..

[Jason]

How ignorant and narrowminded.

Congratulations on posting my following sentence as to why... wait...

[Lemnear]

It's playable but inferior without the card, obviously. The question is, why are people bitching and moaning about a T3-T4 combo deck? This is legacy, you can die on turn 1 for crying out loud.

This is fantastic! Survival was a turn 3-4 Combo Deck too and got banned because people don't want to metagame. Here the whole shit repeats! The Money Barrier caused by the candelabras (keeping it from being widely played) is the only reason we're not having a new witch-hunt already

[perm]

For those who missed it, the guy who said "playing the metagame" means "maindecking hate to fight q specific format warping card/archetype". Play it or Hate it, you crying noobs!

[GGoober]

His list does not feature Academy Ruins...

Also: Tezzeret needs more artifacts to be worth his mana cost

Chalice + BS & STP has already been called..

1 single basic land in a list that is very mana hungry?

This list sucks, which is double sad, because finishing of his more than debatable statesments with a nice creative list might have given more weight to his thoughts..

It's called double disynergy, it's the new tech:

Chrome Mox demands low artifact count, Tezz 2.0 demands high artifact count (more than 30 to be truly broken)
Chalice demands 2 mana turn 1, otherwise a Turn 2 Chalice@1 is horrible, and StP and Brainstorms demands Chalice to be set at non-one.

[Tacosnape]

The big problem with Spiral Tide is that the main answer for it is "Be faster." Because the deck is format-defining as speed. Kill by turn four or you can't play the deck. In online testing, I've only ever lost to Dredge, Affinity, Solidarity, ANT, and some stupid Forgemaster deck that killed me turn one with a Blightsteel Colossus (Which I'm now building.)

I will say this. Spiral Tide is a stronger deck than Vengevine Survival. Not because of what it can do. But because of what you can't do to it. Vengevine Survival, for all of its massive power, could be hated out. A Swamp and an Extirpate was a huge step in the right direction. Spiral Tide has an answer for -every- solution for it other than just "Be faster" or "Be equally fast with a little more disruption."

Seriously, hating out the deck is an act of god. I know. I play it. It shrugs off hate like no deck I've ever seen ever. It can spend all of its resources removing your hate, countering your hate, then recover like it's nothing.

[Solar Ice]

A Swamp and an Extirpate was a huge step in the right direction.

Add a Thoughteize/Duress to that and its a huge step in the right direction as well against Spiral Tide. CounterTop, like against just about any combo deck, is a beating in itself.

I also disagree that it's better than ANT/TES, as mentioned in an earlier post. Both have more disruption and are faster than this T4 deck. I'm not saying that ST is a bad deck (it's very good), but it's far from unstoppable as some like to believe. I just hope that all this moaning about the deck doesn't lead to a banning, like when some moaned loud eonugh about Survival...

[perm]

Like I insinuated, its a problem when the format becomes "play the same deck type and outclock them or build a deck specifically to hate them"

It isn't up to the players to maindeck tons of specific hate just because a deck is so dominating, that's what we call format degeneration

[Lemnear]

I skipped a week this week, but my next article talks about Time Spiral. I’m pretty much in the camp that says that minus the Hatfields, we’re not even having this conversation. It’s a really solid deck among many other really solid decks.

Also, AHHHHHHHH!!!!! I CAN’T PLAY THE EXACT DECK I LIKE! BAN THINGS!!!! BAN THEM ALL!!!!!!

Etc.

Luv ya european point of view, matt.

PS. I was horrified not finding One of your articles this week. Guess everyone deserves holiday XD

[J.V.]

*Yawn*

The Lackey->Ringleader thing already had my convinced this guy was an idiot, and then I read the part about Time Spiral. Really? Spiral Tide = Hulk Flash? What kind of fucked-up, drug-laden, alternate universe of faerie rape does this guy live in?

Dude this post was just amazing.

In other news, as about 99% have said, yes Time Spiral is a very good deck, but no it is not format dismantling, Alix and Jesse are just really good pilots playing a very good deck.

[eq.firemind]

Looks like another cheap shitty sensation.

Oh, and Type 2 GP Dallas Top-8 had 32 Jaces 2.0 (and 5 Jaces 1.0 to fight bigger one). Now that's some serious crap!

[GGoober]

another SCG article to add to the BANTIMESPIRAL craze:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21600_Constructed_Criticism_Learning_To_Love_Legacy.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21606_Building_A_Legacy_Candelabra_Of_Tawnos_Is_The_New_Imperial_Recruiter.html
(Quoting Drew Levin "Time Spiral is the best deck in Legacy". Guys, sell your Wastelands grab your Time Spirals Candelabras now)

The article is much better though, although I'm really starting to think there's a conspiracy theory with
1. SCG out of stock on Candelabra: articles on how Time Spiral is superbly broken
2. SCG has a stash of FoW: article that "I will not play a deck without FoW without any reason"

Lol, probably not, but just some fun dumb conspiracy theories to troll on :P

Regarding Time Spiral being broken, my personal solutions are:
1. Play Solidarity without High Tides maindeck.
2. Play MBC with Duress and Extirpates maindeck. (Yes fuck you 4 Extirpate is good maindeck)
3. Play Infect Berserk
4. Play Belcher/SI/Cheerios

Oh wait, 4 bad decks beat Spiral Tide, nevermind, I forget that SCG circuits are reluctant to stop playing petdecks that lose to Spiral Tide, and SCG circuits refuse to play bad decks that beat the decks they want to ban, so the 5th solution is:

5. BAN TIME SPIRAL!

(On a serious note, just play Junk/Team America/Bug Thresh/UWb Landstill/Ugb Jacestill with Extirpates postboard, or play decks that win faster or UB Merfolks with Extirpates. Extirpate says I don't care how many FoW/PoN you have in your hand, you can't resolve High Tide you don't win. People don't realize that the biggest weakness of Tide decks is losing to Extirpate, unless they have a 4th Tide in the Wishboard. But because we always think Extirpate sucks, so we will continue to lose to Vengevival, to High Tide, and to whatever deck that comes out next. Stop whining and look at how to beat decks if it really becomes a problem. I personally would just play Solidarity because it's fun to go off on your opponent's High Tide, or if you want to rub it in, go off with them at everystep, let them resolve their time spirals, draws, untaps and you do the same as well but be annoying and keep saying "In response, in response", then when they try to brainfreeze/BSZ you, you do it to them but kill them first because you dominate the stack war.)

@EQ_firemind: wow, every deck played 4 Jace 2.0? Awesome format right there!

[Koby]

It will be interesting how the format develops once Surgical Extraction comes out in the next set. 8 Extirpate would be a good way to STFU the Girls Who Cry Wolf over at the SCG website.

P.S., I will always be packing my Pox deck with me in case a metagame feels like it's getting too many combo decks. 4 Extirpate + random discard = the griefs!

[Rizso]

Time Spiral might be the best 6 mana spell in legacy right now, while the deck is very good and consistent. Timespiral is not even close to be as strong as Mystical Tutor or suvival where. 15 card Sideboard is really annoying when there is so many decks to beat and so many good other decks that arent deck to beat. Its no as fast as many other storm combos. Seeing them go off before turn 3 is very small.

32 jace, 32 preordain and 16 Tectonic edge, 4 Lotus cobra 4 Stoneforge mystics 4 Squadron hawks. That is the standard format!

[Admiral_Arzar]

Oh wait, 4 bad decks beat Spiral Tide, nevermind, I forget that SCG circuits are reluctant to stop playing petdecks that lose to Spiral Tide, and SCG circuits refuse to play bad decks that beat the decks they want to ban.

@EQ_firemind: wow, every deck played 4 Jace 2.0? Awesome format right there!

The SCG circuits are full of Idiot Magic Player Syndrome. People would rather play bad aggro decks and bitch about good decks than actually play decks that beat the good decks. If all the aggro players suddenly started playing Team America, Junk w/ Extirpate, Tempo Threshold, and Dreadstill, Spiral Tide would run crying into the corner (as would most of the combo decks in the format).

Wow. I'd rather punch myself in the genitals repeatedly, WITH A HAMMER, than play standard right now. I THINK IT'S ABOUT TIME WE CAN HAZ BAN ON JACE 2.0 WIZARDS???!!!!111??!!!11

[dahcmai]

I don't get one thing. how is this deck popular at all considering the other version, Solidarity. Solidairy had problems with Aggro and this one doesn't? I don't see why it would be any better. Actually, I kind of like Solidarity better due to the instant speed kill. I guess Spiral is better against Discard, but still.

[Mana Drain]

Just ban Green Sun's Zenith. Then CB decks will be able to handle this "combo" nonsense people are clamoring about.

Also, Wild Nacatl. Fuck that guy.

[death]

Just ban Green Sun's Zenith. Then CB decks will be able to handle this "combo" nonsense people are clamoring about.

Also, Wild Nacatl. Fuck that guy.

Touche.

[Koby]

Obligatory Dec 20th, 2010 repost about IMPS (Idiot Magic Player Syndrome):



- Zoo-Player complain that they can't beat TES and refuse to play cannonist or Teeg Maindeck cuz they are so "narrow"
- some idiots claims that TES has 70% against the field (data maybe out of a 30-man local tournament) and ALWAYS kill turn 1-2. They compare the deck to Burning Desire.dec aka Long.dec


Replace TES with <combo card>, and it holds true.

[GGoober]

His list does not feature Academy Ruins...

Also: Tezzeret needs more artifacts to be worth his mana cost

Chalice + BS & STP has already been called..

1 single basic land in a list that is very mana hungry?

This list sucks, which is double sad, because finishing of his more than debatable statesments with a nice creative list might have given more weight to his thoughts..

I just went back to reread the article again for the lulz, and wanted to correct you klaus, and myself, that his UW control list does not run brainstorm. I guess that increases the power level of his turn 2 Chalice (maybe a turn 1 Chalice if he pitched a business spell on turn 1).

[Admiral_Arzar]

Obligatory Dec 20th, 2010 repost about IMPS (Idiot Magic Player Syndrome):



Replace TES with <combo card>, and it holds true.

I lol'd. It's so true, the argument has happened for EVERY combo deck that beats aggro, guaranteed. Also, IMPS should be added to like an MTGtheSource dictionary or something, because it's the most awesome descriptive phrase ever.

/tooting own horn


I just went back to reread the article again for the lulz, and wanted to correct you klaus, and myself, that his UW control list does not run brainstorm. I guess that increases the power level of his turn 2 Chalice (maybe a turn 1 Chalice if he pitched a business spell on turn 1).

A blue control deck without Brainstorm, eh? I sense a revolution in FAIL.

[markbris]

The big problem with Spiral Tide is that the main answer for it is "Be faster." Because the deck is format-defining as speed. Kill by turn four or you can't play the deck. In online testing, I've only ever lost to Dredge, Affinity, Solidarity, ANT, and some stupid Forgemaster deck that killed me turn one with a Blightsteel Colossus (Which I'm now building.)

I will say this. Spiral Tide is a stronger deck than Vengevine Survival. Not because of what it can do. But because of what you can't do to it. Vengevine Survival, for all of its massive power, could be hated out. A Swamp and an Extirpate was a huge step in the right direction. Spiral Tide has an answer for -every- solution for it other than just "Be faster" or "Be equally fast with a little more disruption."

Seriously, hating out the deck is an act of god. I know. I play it. It shrugs off hate like no deck I've ever seen ever. It can spend all of its resources removing your hate, countering your hate, then recover like it's nothing.


I absolutely love how half of you people are basically the reincarnations of the "Flash isn't overpowered" people.

Look, if you don't get it by now, Vengevine Survival fights through any normal amount of hate. Yes, you can beat the deck, if you metagame like 12-20 hate cards between maindeck and sideboard. But it took a lot less to beat Reanimator.

Vengevine is sweeping the format. Constantly. You can keep screaming your "People refuse to adapt" line forever, but you're ridiculous. The results continue to back me up. The deck just wins.


So time to ban time spiral amirite? I'm not saying ban it but going off this previous post of yours you think it should be. haha:tongue:

[AngryTroll]

Shaheen Soorani has a new article up (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/21625_The_Icy_Grip_To_Ban_Or_Not_To_Ban.html) over at StarCityGames about Banning cards. Things are going just fine until the end of the article when he finally brings up the recent Dallas GP, where the Top 8 contained 32 copies of Jace, the Mind Sculptor. His verdict? Don't ban it! This is a fine perspective, and lots of people share that opinion.

However, a few paragraphs later, he re-advocates (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21599_The_Icy_Grip_A_Look_At_True_Control_In_Legacy.html) re-banning Time Spiral in Legacy.

Now, both of those positions are arguable, but they sure made me laugh coming only a few paragraphs apart. The article is worth reading. If a SCG Legacy Open Top 8 contained 32 copies of Time Spiral, I'd sure want it re-banned. But until I see it start making multiple Top 8s in the hands of players not named Hatfield, I'm not buying all of the hype. It may be good (it may be very, very good), but it hasn't put up overwhelming results to warrant a ban yet).

(Side Question: If a Legacy Open Top 8 contained 32 copies of Brainstorms or Forces, spread across 4 or 5 or 8 different decks, would that be worth banning?)

[GGoober]

Shaheen Soorani has a new article up (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/21625_The_Icy_Grip_To_Ban_Or_Not_To_Ban.html) over at StarCityGames about Banning cards. Things are going just fine until the end of the article when he finally brings up the recent Dallas GP, where the Top 8 contained 32 copies of Jace, the Mind Sculptor. His verdict? Don't ban it! This is a fine perspective, and lots of people share that opinion.

However, a few paragraphs later, he re-advocates (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21599_The_Icy_Grip_A_Look_At_True_Control_In_Legacy.html) re-banning Time Spiral in Legacy.

Now, both of those positions are arguable, but they sure made me laugh coming only a few paragraphs apart. The article is worth reading. If a SCG Legacy Open Top 8 contained 32 copies of Time Spiral, I'd sure want it re-banned. But until I see it start making multiple Top 8s in the hands of players not named Hatfield, I'm not buying all of the hype. It may be good (it may be very, very good), but it hasn't put up overwhelming results to warrant a ban yet).

(Side Question: If a Legacy Open Top 8 contained 32 copies of Brainstorms or Forces, spread across 4 or 5 or 8 different decks, would that be worth banning?)

No because they didn't ban Jace when there's 32 copies of Jace spread across 8 decks in the top 8, neither did they ban Preordain which was played as a x4 in every list.

I lol'd at his article when I read it. I think he's better off writing non-Legacy articles. His take on Extended was informative at the very least, Legacy = flawed as fuck. Also, he's rubbing Time Spiral in and out of that article (beginning with the historically known banned cards: Tolarian Academy, Yawwin, Jar, Time Spiral etc).

[Finn]

Ya gotta love articles with completely untested decks in them. I especially like the untested decks with unpopular card choices. That is the kind of thing you float to a friend for discussion. It has no business in an article.

[Doomsday]

Shaheen Soorani has a new article up (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/21625_The_Icy_Grip_To_Ban_Or_Not_To_Ban.html) over at StarCityGames about Banning cards. Things are going just fine until the end of the article when he finally brings up the recent Dallas GP, where the Top 8 contained 32 copies of Jace, the Mind Sculptor. His verdict? Don't ban it! This is a fine perspective, and lots of people share that opinion.

However, a few paragraphs later, he re-advocates (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21599_The_Icy_Grip_A_Look_At_True_Control_In_Legacy.html) re-banning Time Spiral in Legacy.

Now, both of those positions are arguable, but they sure made me laugh coming only a few paragraphs apart. The article is worth reading. If a SCG Legacy Open Top 8 contained 32 copies of Time Spiral, I'd sure want it re-banned. But until I see it start making multiple Top 8s in the hands of players not named Hatfield, I'm not buying all of the hype. It may be good (it may be very, very good), but it hasn't put up overwhelming results to warrant a ban yet).

(Side Question: If a Legacy Open Top 8 contained 32 copies of Brainstorms or Forces, spread across 4 or 5 or 8 different decks, would that be worth banning?)

Anyone close with the shot-callers at SCG? Let's see if we can get them to stop letting this guy write about Legacy. Please.

[Tacosnape]

So time to ban time spiral amirite? I'm not saying ban it but going off this previous post of yours you think it should be. haha:tongue:

While your point is valid, it's not exactly what I'm trying to say. I think Spiral Tide is the stronger deck of the two, but not the more degenerately broken deck of the two.

Vengevine Survival -made- you hate it out. There was no other option. You were either running Vengevine Survival or a deck that had a lot of hate for Vengevine Survival, or you were running Vengevine Survival that ALSO had a lot of hate for Vengevine Survival. There weren't very many decks at all that naturally beat it.

Spiral Tide presents a different problem. It's very very hard to hate out. You have to beat it by being faster, or being equally as fast with a little more disruption. This is why I say it's the stronger deck.

All this said, I will say that I anticipate the point will come where Spiral Tide either needs a banning or warps the format to eliminate all decks that can't kill on turn three or faster. I'm not one hundred percent sure the right call is Time Spiral, but I do believe there's a solid chance something will have to go.

[ramanujan]

They would probably pick Merchant Scroll if they decided to ban something. I really hope that they would listen to reason first because this deck has almost no track record at this point. Merfolk wins tourneys with the same regularity that this deck does. Why no love for Combo?

[Lemnear]

Obligatory Dec 20th, 2010 repost about IMPS (Idiot Magic Player Syndrome):


Originally Posted by Lemnear
- Zoo-Player complain that they can't beat TES and refuse to play cannonist or Teeg Maindeck cuz they are so "narrow"
- some idiots claims that TES has 70% against the field (data maybe out of a 30-man local tournament) and ALWAYS kill turn 1-2. They compare the deck to Burning Desire.dec aka Long.dec


Replace TES with <combo card>, and it holds true.


Awesome you quoted a 4 month old rage-post I did. XD

But it was, is and will be true every time any kind of combo is popular. I like IMPS ... Goes hand in hand with PMS, doesn't it? Both recur periodic ... Xp

[Lemnear]

http://http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21628_Eternal_On_The_Other_Side_Of_The_Ocean_On_Combo.html

another great (sane) article from Carsten

[Amon Amarth]

Looks like REB is a legit sideboard card now.

[Lemnear]

Looks like REB is a legit sideboard card now.

I guess it was before with the rise of meerfolk and countertop

[Cthuloo]

I guess it was before with the rise of meerfolk and countertop

Reb is almost always good sideboard material, with very minor exceptions. Good piece from Carsten Kotter, it's nice to have someone that cryes against the bannings as loud as the people who cry for them.

[perm]

The SCG circuits are full of Idiot Magic Player Syndrome. People would rather play bad aggro decks and bitch about good decks than actually play decks that beat the good decks. If all the aggro players suddenly started playing Team America, Junk w/ Extirpate, Tempo Threshold, and Dreadstill, Spiral Tide would run crying into the corner (as would most of the combo decks in the format).

Wow. I'd rather punch myself in the genitals repeatedly, WITH A HAMMER, than play standard right now. I THINK IT'S ABOUT TIME WE CAN HAZ BAN ON JACE 2.0 WIZARDS???!!!!111??!!!11

Oh lordy, is this a case of "NO CARD/DECK IS BROKEN, YOU ALL JUST NEED TO BUILD YOUR DECKS TO SPECIFICALLY BEAT THESE DECKS TO HAVE A CHANCE IDIOTS"

I am not saying this specific instance is such a case, I don't have the info to make a judgement. But that is never an argument. It's not up to the players to build either an overpowered deck or a deck designed specifically to fight said deck. If a deck is so dominating that players can't play aggro, something is very, very wrong.

[Lemnear]

Oh lordy, is this a case of "NO CARD/DECK IS BROKEN, YOU ALL JUST NEED TO BUILD YOUR DECKS TO SPECIFICALLY BEAT THESE DECKS TO HAVE A CHANCE IDIOTS"

I am not saying this specific instance is such a case, I don't have the info to make a judgement. But that is never an argument. It's not up to the players to build either an overpowered deck or a deck designed specifically to fight said deck. If a deck is so dominating that players can't play aggro, something is very, very wrong.

erm ... you are not 100% correct.

You still CAN play aggro. The point is that you can't play cast-creature-attack-repeat and win big tournaments anymore (was the case in Mystical tutor and survials eras too) .... and to be honest, nobody should. Playing creature after creature after creature and always push all in the red zone shouldn't be a successful style of playing, in a game of intelligent interaction. Even a monkey can be trained to draw a card, tap all cards (mana to cast drawn card and creatures to attack), lay all cards into the field. My 2 cents.

The problem ist, that pure aggro players can't exchange fabulous mana-to-power-creatures with hatebears without sacrificing speed .... a trade-off no one want's to make -> IMPS

[Doomsday]

Oh lordy, is this a case of "NO CARD/DECK IS BROKEN, YOU ALL JUST NEED TO BUILD YOUR DECKS TO SPECIFICALLY BEAT THESE DECKS TO HAVE A CHANCE IDIOTS"

I am not saying this specific instance is such a case, I don't have the info to make a judgement. But that is never an argument. It's not up to the players to build either an overpowered deck or a deck designed specifically to fight said deck. If a deck is so dominating that players can't play aggro, something is very, very wrong.



Nothing is "very very wrong". Aggro loses to combo, deal with it. You don't hear combo players whining about Counterbalance, or control players whining about Vial.

[perm]

Rock, paper scissors isn't strategy. I am not denying the reality. But there's a distinct problem when combo starts getting so good, i'm not complaining about aggro's MU's. I am prescribing against one archetype or strategy or whatever completing warping the balance to the point where "only stupid people" will be playing aggro in this entire format. Do you think that's ok?

"This is ridiculous, I can't play an aggro deck because *whatever* is so absurdly powerful!"
'wow deal with it retard, why are you playing aggro if thats not viable any more because *whatever* is broken?'
"What? there is a problem when an entire general archetype is obselete because *whatever* is at an out of control power level"
'stop crying you whiner just play that deck or the deck that beats it'

So why not make necropotence unbanned? The players would be self-regulating, right? Aggro wouldn't exist, of course, it would be necropotence decks vs control decks. Nothing very wrong at all though.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Why wouldn't control play Necropetence? It's an awesome source of cardadvantage. Drawing a fresh hand every turn is incredibly strong.

Whatever, I don't think anything is too strong right now. The current metagame is amazing, you can really play whatever you want. If your Zoo list is fast enough, you can even sometimes race combo with it. Throw some hate into your sideboard and your matchup will actually be quite reasonable. Aggro should not be able to beat combo reliably anyway. The thing that's more aparent in my opinion is the lack of old-fashioned control decks. Everything in the format becomes tempo. I think in the last eight or nine SCG open top 8's were a total of 3 or 4 aggro decks without Wasteland. But aggro with Wasteland is still aggro, just like control with Tarmogoyf is still control. There really is nothing wrong with the current meta, not a single deck is overpowered.

[perm]

haha I agree, I was just using an oveprowered example. I don't think time spiral is too overpowered. But there seems to be this anti-rational state of mind going around that there is no such thing as an overpowered combo card by virtue of people being able to play specific decks/archetypes to ebat it, which of course is completely absurd.

[Doomsday]

I guess I just don't find it absurd to make fun of people who complain that an archetype loses to the archetype that it's supposed to lose to. So someone's aggro deck can't beat combo regularly. No shit. Do you think combo decks beat Counterbalance or Team America very often? How do you think CBTop generally does against Merfolk? Why is it only the aggro players that bitch when they have bad match-ups? Legacy isn't about playing one deck all the time, never metagaming at all, and just complaining to get the cards banned that beat your strategy. That's the thing that seems absurd to me.

Where's Arsenal at? I'm sure competitive fighting game players would get a big kick out this mentality. "I play Rufus and can't beat Zangief regularly. Obviously that means that there's a problem with Zangief and he should be banned. Nevermind that he has bad match-ups versus a bunch of other characters, and I have good match-ups against a bunch of other characters. CAPCOM PLEASE FIX THIS!" That kind of shit would get you laughed off of SRK, and doing the same thing here should result in similar treatment. In my humble opinion.

[perm]

First of all, "archetypes" are abstract concepts and constructions you are treating as concrete things. When the first magic cards were printed, there weren't archetypes. MTG cards in a vacuum have no archetypes. If you gave mtg to a boat load of players who had never heard of it, and told them to learn. Would archetypes naturally fall into place? possibly and probably, but that's because it's A) the human actors and B) the cards printed as magic matured to conform to this mode of thinking, but i digress.

the fighting game metaphor breaks down though. Please answer me this: Is there ever a point where a combo deck becomes too good, and all the whining "aggro baddies" are not just being retarded? Let's say that most control decks can have a fair shake at beating this deck. What is the edge of bannable, in your opinion? Is "play it or play to beat it" an acceptable scenario? Metagaming arguments are anti-reason, metagames should reflect choices and trends amongst the network of players, NOT players desperately attempting to correct balance issues by building decks solely to beat ones that are too good. This isn't free market capitalism, deregulation is not efficient. Legacy is a 100% closed system that needs to have rules to correct inefficiencies, and inefficient in this case means non-competitive and non-fun. I think you are hovering on an elitist "i am above wanting to ban cards" cloud where you can easily cast down judgements of others as stupid. This "just world theory" of magic makes this card describe you well http://magiccards.info/query?q=nemesis+of+reason&v=card&s=cname

[Lemnear]

guess we get carried away ... the "banworthy" topic is very complex. Example?

How "banworthy" is Aether Vial? It acts as a recuring perm. Black Lotus for creatures, gives them Flash, makes then uncounterable, is cheap and colorless, makes blue unable to interact with creatures, drove control out of the metagame!

Some claim that Sprial Tide (and Survival before that and Mystical Tutor before even Survival) drove stupid aggro out of the metagame and that's so unfair, and blah blah.

Aether Vial decks tore Control apart at the beginning of the year! But, strange ... I can't hear any control player whinning?! No cryout for a ban of Vial or Nacatl? Instead they splash another color and pack "narrow" hate like firespout and grim lavamancer in their maindecks? Oh .... my .... gush!

Can it be that control players are simply .... more mature?

[Koby]

Aether Vial decks tore Control apart at the beginning of the year! But, strange ... I can't hear any control player whinning?! No cryout for a ban of Vial or Nacatl? Instead they splash another color and pack "narrow" hate like firespout and grim lavamancer in their maindecks? Oh .... my .... gush!


To be fair, no one is complaining that Counterbalance has been pushed out of the format. Thank goodness for that move. Counterbalance/Top decks can easily account for over 50% of the draws in major tournaments. I for one support this trend of pushing dedicated control out of the format, especially if it means Counterbalance is nullified.

On a more relevant note, archetypes have existed since the first few months of Magic. The Deck is one of the first defining archetypes for control that was emulated for several years following. Same with Pox, which functionally hasn't changed much since its namesake was printed. FYI, did you know Pox was played to beat Necropotence decks in Black Summer?


Can it be that control players are simply .... mature?
I think the converse is more appropriate. Aggro players are just immature and cannot comprehend decks that play unfairly. It's also a typical case that they can't afford to build another deck, so the complaint is somewhat valid in that aspect.


Is there ever a point where a combo deck becomes too good, and all the whining "aggro baddies" are not just being retarded? Let's say that most control decks can have a fair shake at beating this deck. What is the edge of bannable, in your opinion? Is "play it or play to beat it" an acceptable scenario? Metagaming arguments are anti-reason, metagames should reflect choices and trends amongst the network of players, NOT players desperately attempting to correct balance issues by building decks solely to beat ones that are too good.

Yes, there does become such a point. However looking at the results of the recent SCG Opens reveals that the threshold is still too low for that point yet. The Los Angeles open was as close we've come to that threshold, and that's only partially because LA has historically been more combo oriented. Another angle is that given a vacuum of dedicated control (viz. CBTop), combo absolutely crushes the metagame. LED - still disgustingly good as a combo enabled with 2 mana tutors (BWish, Infernal Tutor). Doomsday, still a powerful, if not complex, 5 card tutor. These spells are not easy to answer using linear mechanics or cards. Combo needs to be respected in sideboard choices, or problems arise in the metagame that make it appear as though it's unbearable, and we get Peanut Gallery, Armchair commentary from the likes of Shaheen bemoaning the power level of Spiral Tide the Hatfields.

[GGoober]

Go watch the Hatfields playing Spiral Tide on SCG and go watch yourself play Spiral Tide. There's a huge difference in skill level. At least when I was watching it, I was definitely learning a lot as to why they made certain plays, e.g. outplaying control players, waiting for exactly the right moment to turnabout their lands, and win with FoW/Pact advantage and go off from there. Take note that the whole process on Scrolling for Pacts was not to increase the ability to resolve Time Spiral, but postspiral, when their lands are tapped down, you now have extra Pacts and FoWs to fight their 4 FoWs while shutting them off on any mana to do anything with non-FoW counterspell.

Similarly, a good control player can beat vial decks. If you bring Countertop with no EEs or outs to Merfolks/Gobs maindeck, then you're shooting yourself in your foot to lose to those decks. Can control beat vial? Sure it can, it's not easy, but it's not the end of the world (hint: play 3 EEs, Pithing Needle). The whole point of control is to know the inside-outs of your opponent's decks. You force them at every angle to try to race you and overextend, or you play cards like Planeswalkers/Shackles/countertop that force them to go all out, then you eat that card advantage and beat them. It's not easy to beat vial decks, but it's definitely easier to play against vial decks and try to bitch them rather than play a 75 reluctant to adapt and continue to whine and lose to vial decks.

This, by the way, works for any deck, whether you're playing aggro v.s. combo, control v.s. vial, combo v.s. control. If you don't learn, you're not going anywhere. Every deck has bad matchups, but those 70-30 can be shored up to 60-40 or 50-50 depending how willing you are to sacrifice other matchups. Legacy isn't Hulk Flash anymore, so the game is fair at this point.

[Lemnear]

Counterbalance can be annoying to play against; the reason to play it myself Xp I don't want to vote for Counterbalance as a deck here, but the problem is the near complete absence of the control archtype that helps any sort of combo to shine atm.

Carsten realized that too and reflects that state in his article.

[cdr]

FYI, there have been 5 High Tide and 1 Spring Tide out of 144 post-unbanning SCG T16 decks. That's less than each of Merfolk, Team America, Zoo, NO Bant, Goblins, and CounterTop.

24 Time Spirals and 22 Candelabras out of 8,645 maindeck cards / 10,805 total cards.

Certainly the average result per person playing the deck is likely much better, and the absolute numbers should be going up since the Tide deck is a later development, but we'll see.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Nothing is "very very wrong". Aggro loses to combo, deal with it. You don't hear combo players whining about Counterbalance, or control players whining about Vial.


I guess I just don't find it absurd to make fun of people who complain that an archetype loses to the archetype that it's supposed to lose to. So someone's aggro deck can't beat combo regularly. No shit. Do you think combo decks beat Counterbalance or Team America very often? How do you think CBTop generally does against Merfolk? Why is it only the aggro players that bitch when they have bad match-ups?


QFT. I find it very appropriate to make fun of this phenomenon. I can't ever really recall hearing a combo player say "ZoMG Force of Will is so fucking broken, you should't be able to counter spellz without mana and it fucks my deck so it should be BANHAMMERED!!1111!!11" I also can't recall hearing control players call for the banning of *insert stupid aggro card here* because it has nearly pushed their archetype out of the format. And yet, the number of times I've heard somebody who plays Goblins, Zoo, some G/X deck, or whatever complain about how broken combo is...is ridiculous.



How "banworthy" is Aether Vial? It acts as a recuring perm. Black Lotus for creatures, gives them Flash, makes then uncounterable, is cheap and colorless, makes blue unable to interact with creatures, drove control out of the metagame!

Some claim that Sprial Tide (and Survival before that and Mystical Tutor before even Survival) drove stupid aggro out of the metagame and that's so unfair, and blah blah.

Aether Vial decks tore Control apart at the beginning of the year! But, strange ... I can't hear any control player whinning?! No cryout for a ban of Vial or Nacatl? Instead they splash another color and pack "narrow" hate like firespout and grim lavamancer in their maindecks? Oh .... my .... gush!

Can it be that control players are simply .... more mature?

I LOL'd at "Oh my gush." As for AEther Vial, it's probably the most bannable card around IMO because it has historically warped the format to a level that no other legal card that people call for bans of (I'm looking at you LED and SDT) has. Does that mean I'm calling for a ban on AEther Vial because Merfolk is annoying? NOPE. Format diversity plz, even if it means I have to deal with an annoying matchup or two.

[Koby]

As for AEther Vial, it's probably the most bannable card around IMO because it has historically warped the format to a level that no other legal card that people call for bans of (I'm looking at you LED and SDT) has.

Obligatory:

This will set a dangerous precedent if it's true.

June 2011, Counterbalance and Sensei's Top banned, for being in Top 8.
September 2011, Lion's Eye Diamond banned for being colorless.
December 2011, Wild Nacatl banned for being too damn aggressive.
March 2012, Aether Vial banned for cheating at Magic.
June 2012, Brainstorm banned for drawing more than 1 card per turn.
September 2012, Ponder restricted for being the same mana cost as Brainstorm and looking at 3 cards.
December 20th, 2012 - End of the world.

You laugh now...

[Admiral_Arzar]

Obligatory:

lol.

And this is why I believe there really shouldn't be bans at all, except in cases of ridiculous format dominance (Hulk-Flash is the ONLY case that springs to mind).

[Lemnear]

Hey rukcus, is that's from the same "banning survival" thread you quoted me lately for IMPS!? If so, you should maybe quote the whole thread because I feel we're repeating all that stuff said in december in this One :).

P.S. I evaded the word "immature" ... my style of making comments causes enough negative ... Erm ... Vibe? ... Let's call it vibe....

P.P.S. I well remember that list and know it comes true, but I wasn't laughing like Arzar, I ... to be on-topic ... was whinning! WHINNING! Lol

@Arzar: I love your quote, I use in my sig without permission ... Yeah, it gives me an adrenalin-kick ... I'm buckwild! ^_^

[Koby]

Hey rukcus, is that's from the same "banning survival" thread you quoted me lately for IMPS!? If so, you should maybe quote the whole thread because I feel we're repeating all that stuff said in december in this One :).


It is indeed. Funny how quickly these same threads repeat themselves.

[perm]

lol.

And this is why I believe there really shouldn't be bans at all, except in cases of ridiculous format dominance (Hulk-Flash is the ONLY case that springs to mind).

Kay so

Some guy makes a slippery-slope fallacy
You quote it and say that justifies your opinion for why bans shouldnt exist in a format where every card can be played, including the absurdly over the top broken ones?

Do you have like, assistants that help you get through the day, and protect you when your life-threating illogic and anti-reason get in the way?

Let's definitely unban yawgmoth's will and memory jar. Necropotence should never have been on any ban list of course, same with oath of druids.

Can you address this:



Please answer me this: Is there ever a point where a combo deck becomes too good, and all the whining "aggro baddies" are not just being retarded? Let's say that most control decks can have a fair shake at beating this deck. What is the edge of bannable, in your opinion? Is "play it or play to beat it" an acceptable scenario? Metagaming arguments are anti-reason, metagames should reflect choices and trends amongst the network of players, NOT players desperately attempting to correct balance issues by building decks solely to beat ones that are too good. This isn't free market capitalism, deregulation is not efficient. Legacy is a 100% closed system that needs to have rules to correct inefficiencies, and inefficient in this case means non-competitive and non-fun.

Should the game boil down to a rockscissors vs scissorpaper? That is, if any one deck is just too played, its no big deal besides everyone not being able to play normally good decks, and just play ones that exist to counter the uncompetitive deck?

For the record, I was never for the banning of survival (though I don't care too much) and I don't think spiral tide is too broken. I am just not dumb enough to say things like "Only IDIOT NOOBS who arent as smart and elite as me think bans should exist"

[Admiral_Arzar]

*Random crap*


Bro, I specifically stated that I support bans in the event of something completely dominating the format (as happened in the case of Hulk-Flash - you either played it or hated it, and the deck was busted beyond belief).

NOWHERE IN MY POSTS did I suggest that shit like Jar and Will should be unbanned. I never discussed unbanning, so I'm not sure how the fuck you got onto this little tangent of reading things that aren't there. You might as well have read my post and said "this guy is trying to convince me to put his genitals in my mouth." That's the approximate level of relevance going on here.

Anyways, to address your last/only relevant point - I'm generalizing to cover a lot of IMPs here. Obviously that doesn't mean everybody is an idiot n00b who calls for BANZ. It seems like so many people nowadays are though, so I catch myself generalizing :P.




@Arzar: I love your quote, I use in my sig without permission ... Yeah, it gives me an adrenalin-kick ... I'm buckwild! ^_^

Dude, what's the point of posting ridiculous shit if nobody sigs it? And I'm glad I could up your adrenaline level - in a completely heterosexual fashion of course.

[perm]

My point is that yawgmoths will, memory jar and hulk flash are not the only types of situations where anti-competitive and anti-fun things occur. THere are lower-key anti-competive cards that just have to be regulated for efficiency. Format diversity is a virtue of it's own as well. Legacy is actually pretty good about this, even though it could be better. Mystical tutor isn't an OMG TURN -1 WIN MEMORYJAR YAWGWIN situation that you are describing, it just was just too much of a brainless include because it provided so much power and quality to decks. It was an absolutely justified ban and isn't a stupid draw 9999 effect.

Why shouldn't wizards ban cards to make the format more competitive, balanced and diverse? Telling players to meta against anti-competitive cards forcs them to make non-diverse decks that are not competitive outside of the warped and imbalanced format. Why does your ideological purism trump legitimate fun, balance and diversity?

[Lemnear]

Especially in Vintage WotC did Ban cards for diversity (2n gush era), but perm, do you think we are in a flawed meta atm? If so please share that makes you feel so. I hope, most player agree that an intact triangle of aggo-Control-combo is desireable and it's unhealthy if any one of this 3 is unplayable.

Due to the general Feeling of People across boards, that control is pretty much out of the metagame, simply because aggro is so good, it seems strange to me, to call for actions against combo, if aggro was the primary reason the metagame lost balance. Reacting with a combo nerf would make Play-creature-attack THE supreme strategy, that not only insults players intelligence but creates a non diverse metagame about playing the biggest ass on the smallest chair (mana-to-Power-Ratio)

[perm]

Tarmogoyf is too good of a card that rewards you for playing the game, and sets up a ridiculous clock. So many cards are just unplayable because there is "wait, they will just play tarmogoyf." Wild Nacatl is arguably just too good, but you need to be playing mountains and plains for it to work. So that's really not a big problem card.

Then there is aether vial. It's definitely a fun card, but its power level is absurd. You can lay down as uncounterable instants twice as many creatures your manabase normally could. Of course, it's one mana. People say its a problem with aggro, but it isn't. It's why aggro can keep up with combo and retain the legacy tempo. And it isn't necessarily a 4-of.

As insane as aether vial is, the real problem is tarmogoyf. If you attempt to make the "just a vanilla beater" argument, I will go ahead and just call you stupid or ignorant, not trying to be a jerk. But what is the point that a vanilla beat becomes too good? Is it a 3/3 deathtouch for 1G? That's wren's run vanquisher, and it still has a huge restriction on playing it. That card is worse than tarmogoyf even if you took away the restriction. So, is a 20/20 vanilla beater for 1G balanced? I bet you'll say no. In the format known as legacy, tarmogoyf is very easily a 4/5 on turn two, if not bigger. So is a 4/5 vanilla for 1G too good? what about 5/6 for 1G. Where is the line drawn? Or is it not drawn because removal exists, so 100/100 for 1G is a balanced and not banworthy card.

Tarmogoyf was an R&D mistake whether you like it or not. It's a mistake that probably should have been corrected a few years ago, and legacy would have been a more fun format for it. So this is totally an example of aggro being too good, but a deeper problem arises when every random deck can drop it as a 4-of and be strictly better.

But I am getting off topic. If combo had a card equivalent to tarmogoyf, it would need to be banned. Is this card Time Spiral? I really doubt it. Combo is more specific than aggro; that is, in a vacuum combo cards aren't that great. But when combined with comb decks, they are monstrous. Aggro decks don't need to be nerfed, tarmogoyf that is part of many should be, if you know what I mean. If only tarmogoyf were GG and 0/0. But this is the problem with combo decks, they are very specific and their cards aren't as obviously overpowered in a vacuum.

[Lemnear]

This is a nice post but Tarmogoyf could be a replacement here for any standalone "warping" card like vial, Jace, tinker, bLotus etc. All brainless superior "choices", but unlike those mentioned, Time Spiral is a bad standalone card and not even a Game-ending-OMGush!-card in the right deck so a banning because of Power is pointless.

To shortly discuss the tarmogoyf vs. Vial topic I should recall the argument of the DCI Why they decided to ban SotF instead of vengevine. "Survival was the enabler for broken plays and gets better with every creature we print." I'm sure this stands more true for Vial than Goofy.

[Koby]

If combo had a card equivalent to tarmogoyf, it would need to be banned. Is this card Time Spiral? I really doubt it. Combo is more specific than aggro; that is, in a vacuum combo cards aren't that great. But when combined with comb decks, they are monstrous. Aggro decks don't need to be nerfed, tarmogoyf that is part of many should be, if you know what I mean. If only tarmogoyf were GG and 0/0. But this is the problem with combo decks, they are very specific and their cards aren't as obviously overpowered in a vacuum.

The card you're looking for:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mm/61.jpg

[perm]

Brainstorm is the reason control still has its head above the water



This is a nice post but Tarmogoyf could be a replacement here for any standalone "warping" card like vial, Jace, tinker, bLotus etc. All brainless superior "choices", but unlike those mentioned, Time Spiral is a bad standalone card and not even a Game-ending-OMGush!-card in the right deck so a banning because of Power is pointless.

To shortly discuss the tarmogoyf vs. Vial topic I should recall the argument of the DCI Why they decided to ban SotF instead of vengevine. "Survival was the enabler for broken plays and gets better with every creature we print." I'm sure this stands more true for Vial than Goofy.

Buy goyf is not enabled by vial more than any other creature of similar CC. Vengevine was enabled

So why is tarmogoyf different? Tarmogoyf is a broken play. That's right, while vengive/survival was a broken play, tarmogoyf doesn't need an enabler. It's a card that warps the format to very anti-competitive levels. As you mentioned, time spiral doesn't do this at all, but that's only a degree of relevance away; being a broken play by yourself is an order of magnitude worse than needed other cards or even a deck shell.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Tarmogoyf is too good of a card that rewards you for playing the game, and sets up a ridiculous clock. So many cards are just unplayable because there is "wait, they will just play tarmogoyf." Wild Nacatl is arguably just too good, but you need to be playing mountains and plains for it to work. So that's really not a big problem card.

Then there is aether vial. It's definitely a fun card, but its power level is absurd. You can lay down as uncounterable instants twice as many creatures your manabase normally could. Of course, it's one mana. People say its a problem with aggro, but it isn't. It's why aggro can keep up with combo and retain the legacy tempo. And it isn't necessarily a 4-of.

As insane as aether vial is, the real problem is tarmogoyf. If you attempt to make the "just a vanilla beater" argument, I will go ahead and just call you stupid or ignorant, not trying to be a jerk. But what is the point that a vanilla beat becomes too good? Is it a 3/3 deathtouch for 1G? That's wren's run vanquisher, and it still has a huge restriction on playing it. That card is worse than tarmogoyf even if you took away the restriction. So, is a 20/20 vanilla beater for 1G balanced? I bet you'll say no. In the format known as legacy, tarmogoyf is very easily a 4/5 on turn two, if not bigger. So is a 4/5 vanilla for 1G too good? what about 5/6 for 1G. Where is the line drawn? Or is it not drawn because removal exists, so 100/100 for 1G is a balanced and not banworthy card.

Tarmogoyf was an R&D mistake whether you like it or not. It's a mistake that probably should have been corrected a few years ago, and legacy would have been a more fun format for it. So this is totally an example of aggro being too good, but a deeper problem arises when every random deck can drop it as a 4-of and be strictly better.

But I am getting off topic. If combo had a card equivalent to tarmogoyf, it would need to be banned. Is this card Time Spiral? I really doubt it. Combo is more specific than aggro; that is, in a vacuum combo cards aren't that great. But when combined with comb decks, they are monstrous. Aggro decks don't need to be nerfed, tarmogoyf that is part of many should be, if you know what I mean. If only tarmogoyf were GG and 0/0. But this is the problem with combo decks, they are very specific and their cards aren't as obviously overpowered in a vacuum.

I actually agree with most of this post. I'm pretty sure that WOTC will never do anything about it though, Tarmogoyf has been allowed to run rampant for far too long. Note that Tarmogoyf is a part of a sort of "Unholy trinity" of broken cards that are in balance with one another. Tarmogoyf is aggro's share of that pie, Force of Will is control's. The combo equivalent is Lion's Eye Diamond. I'm pretty sure none of those cards can go without nerfing the others as well. Although perhaps LED isn't appropriate anymore because it only fuels certain combo decks, I don't know. Under the logic they used to ban Survival, I'm pretty sure they're keeping a close watch on AEther Vial though.