Assuming that $1500 average deck costs are unsustainable...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Which would people rather see? inspired by another thread. From what I can gather the average deck cost in Legacy is getting to be about $1200-1500, much of that in the manabase, but with even uncommon staples of relatively recent print like Aether Vial and Sensei's Divining Top getting to be $50 a playset. I think this is clearly unsustainable; a format can't thrive healthily with such a large barrier to entry. So what's the ideal solution?

[Kuma]

The ideal solution is for Wizards to reprint format staples. Since that's not likely to happen, the only other way prices fall significantly is if demand falls significantly. And nobody's going to like what that means.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Choice four seems completely unreasonable, as banning the worst offenders due to cost will just result in more worst offenders due to cost (whatever's "hot" at the time) until there aren't any good cards left and Mountain Goat costs $100 and gets banned.

[Tammit67]

I won't even begin to discuss the sampling bias of the questions alone...

Unsustainable? You bet your ass. But these are the times. I would love reprint regardless for what I have picked my cards up for, butit just isn't going to happen.

[Kuma]

Choice four seems completely unreasonable, as banning the worst offenders due to cost will just result in more worst offenders due to cost (whatever's "hot" at the time) until there aren't any good cards left and Mountain Goat costs $100 and gets banned.

Exactly.

I'd be shocked if anyone picked option one, too. I mean, this is The Source for crying out loud. Who here wants to see Legacy become a niche format. I guess we'll find out...

[kiblast]

In my opinion the first and the fourth options are unsustainable. Clearly we don't want Legacy go the way of Vintage, and neither we want banhammer on staples of the format; because even if all original Duals get banned, the best substitutes suddendly would reach a very near price tag, with Ravnicas hitting 50$ each for the most playables, and this would lead to other cards reaching hideous price tag and the problem would still be here.

I think they should start Overextended. A new format, with fairly different staples would shake the market and change prices sensibly. Let's say Wizards announces OverExt and decides that there will be 1 Legacy GP and 3 OverExt Gp's in 2012. Surely the demand for new OE staples will be higher than for Legacy ones, and this in conjunction with the fact that newer cards are more available, should mean lower prices.

Edit: However, I highly dislike the ''Aggressively/ Replacement'' part of option 2.3 Eternal formats can coexist.

[BooleanLobster]

I don't quite understand this belief that high prices will kill Legacy. Yes, some people will get out in order to buy a car/house/yacht, but for every seller there is a buyer.

When you all quit Legacy, you will give your cards to someone else. He will play Legacy, and the size of the format will not change. If you had a substantial collection, it will probably be divvied up among multiple new players, causing the format to grow. Where is the shrinkage here?

The only wrinkle that I see is that if the people with the cards don't sell off for a long time, then by the time they are ready to pass the torch, there might be no younger generation with interest in the format at *any price*. It would be a glut (not just a crash - even in a crash there are buyers).

But that isn't going to happen. MWS and Cockatrice and such will keep interest in the format even among players who don't own a single dual. Tier 1.5 decks that are relatively cheap to build will keep the barrier to entry low enough.

When you finally start thinking about cashing out, there will be a horde of Ichorid, Burn, Mono R Goblins, White Weenie, Pox, and Elves players pestering you to sell to them.

[Pippin]

There's missing a 5th option:

5) Do nothing drastic, let Legacy reach it's plateau since there's no evidence that format is in trouble - quite on the contrary, it's been having constant and healthy growth worldwide despite what the doomsayers are saying

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I actually included the fourth because I thought it was interesting how similar to the Overextended solution it is, really. I mean it's fine to say that there can be multiple eternal formats, but I don't think it's realistic to think that the game can sustain more than one as a competitive format at any level of popularity. Overextended, if it ever happens, would be the death knell for Legacy, at least at the level of play it's enjoyed these past few years. Overextended is, I think, co-extant with Legacy becoming a niche format. If Legacy is to survive and remain popular and well-supported, something has to be done to drag deck costs down, and the only options seem pretty drastic.

I am surprised/pleased at how lopsided the poll is thusfar, but then the questions' phrasing may have been biased.

[CorpT]

Until there is a PTQ season for OverExtended, it won't be a format anyone cares about. And even then, when it is not in season, no one will care about it. It would be even worse than existing Extended which no one cares about. IMO, there just isn't enough time to support 3 constructed formats. It's hard enough supporting two, but adding another format complicates things even more. Personally, I would just cut out the middle format all together and focus on: Limited, Block, Standard and Legacy. Vintage can do it's own thing, but kill off Extended already.

[Kuma]

I don't quite understand this belief that high prices will kill Legacy. Yes, some people will get out in order to buy a car/house/yacht, but for every seller there is a buyer.

When you all quit Legacy, you will give your cards to someone else. He will play Legacy, and the size of the format will not change. If you had a substantial collection, it will probably be divvied up among multiple new players, causing the format to grow. Where is the shrinkage here?

The only wrinkle that I see is that if the people with the cards don't sell off for a long time, then by the time they are ready to pass the torch, there might be no younger generation with interest in the format at *any price*. It would be a glut (not just a crash - even in a crash there are buyers).

But that isn't going to happen. MWS and Cockatrice and such will keep interest in the format even among players who don't own a single dual. Tier 1.5 decks that are relatively cheap to build will keep the barrier to entry low enough.

When you finally start thinking about cashing out, there will be a horde of Ichorid, Burn, Mono R Goblins, White Weenie, Pox, and Elves players pestering you to sell to them.


I think the problem is that as Legacy prices increase, the people who have the staples or who are willing to pay for the staples are spread out more geographically making it difficult to get any kind of a metagame going other than GPs, SCG opens, etc.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't quite understand this belief that high prices will kill Legacy. Yes, some people will get out in order to buy a car/house/yacht, but for every seller there is a buyer.

When you all quit Legacy, you will give your cards to someone else. He will play Legacy, and the size of the format will not change. If you had a substantial collection, it will probably be divvied up among multiple new players, causing the format to grow. Where is the shrinkage here?

The only wrinkle that I see is that if the people with the cards don't sell off for a long time, then by the time they are ready to pass the torch, there might be no younger generation with interest in the format at *any price*. It would be a glut (not just a crash - even in a crash there are buyers).

But that isn't going to happen. MWS and Cockatrice and such will keep interest in the format even among players who don't own a single dual. Tier 1.5 decks that are relatively cheap to build will keep the barrier to entry low enough.

When you finally start thinking about cashing out, there will be a horde of Ichorid, Burn, Mono R Goblins, White Weenie, Pox, and Elves players pestering you to sell to them.

The reality isn't so simple. Scarcity creates a lot of problems. It drives up prices to a point where they have difficulty coming down, because they cease to be merely cards and start representing financial investments for people. If people are neither selling nor buying those cards sit on the sidelines. Other people drop out of playing, perhaps temporarily, and don't sell out because they want to come back later. Other people that might want to get in aren't able to fork out $12,000 for a deck and so move on to other things. Interest in the format stagnates and then support dries up; from that point, the format becomes nearly impossible to ressurect, since no one wants to pay $1200 or even $800 if prices drop a bit to get into a format with no prize support and no community.

There's no perfectly efficient market for Legacy cards- quite the opposite- and "play tier 2 decks" isn't a solution.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There's missing a 5th option:

5) Do nothing drastic, let Legacy reach it's plateau since there's no evidence that format is in trouble - quite on the contrary, it's been having constant and healthy growth worldwide despite what the doomsayers are saying


Until there is a PTQ season for OverExtended, it won't be a format anyone cares about. And even then, when it is not in season, no one will care about it. It would be even worse than existing Extended which no one cares about. IMO, there just isn't enough time to support 3 constructed formats. It's hard enough supporting two, but adding another format complicates things even more. Personally, I would just cut out the middle format all together and focus on: Limited, Block, Standard and Legacy. Vintage can do it's own thing, but kill off Extended already.

I think you're incredibly mistaken, and possibly fettered by a limited view. There's significant resentment towards Legacy in Asia and South America since staples are incredibly difficult to find there. Meanwhile, a huge chunk of pros don't really have memories going back pre-Masques, but would be happy to play in a format that includes nearly all of the cards they've known and loved but sans the $1,000 manabases.

[socialite]

The sky is falling.

Why do you think 1. will happen considering the notably larger Legacy population and the support WoTC and venues like SCG already give Legacy.

Honestly this thread just seems like more of the same fear mongered whining already posted all over this forum and others. :(



There's missing a 5th option:

5) Do nothing drastic, let Legacy reach it's plateau since there's no evidence that format is in trouble - quite on the contrary, it's been having constant and healthy growth worldwide despite what the doomsayers are saying

+1

[ramanujan]

It is a significant assumption you are making to suggest that these are the only options and that inaction will kill the format. There are enough staples for Legacy to be a popular format. There are not enough staples to make Vintage a popular format. This difference is substantial in my opinion. In my opinion, a popular format does not go the way of Vintage. Vintage, in the early 2000s, was not popular because I believe that playing with proxies is not playing Vintage. I am sure that Wizards would agree to the extent that playing with proxies is not playing Vintage.

Wizards has, and will continue to, add to our format in the form of new cards. They have an ability that people here often ignore, and that is to add new different cards to the Legacy pool. Just a few years ago, there was 2 fewer Merfolk Lords, several fewer anti graveyard cards, no trap cards to kill combo, no tinkering robots, no mana producers to rival birds, no Iona, no off color fetch lands, no nacatl, no Jace TMS, no Emrakul, no mox opal, one less goblin lord... Think for a second what has changed in the last few years and look onward to the future. There is already a free spell spoiled in the next set that will cause the balance to shift away from Combo.

Certain decks, which represent a small population of viable decks, are limited by the card population. There are ten times as many viable decks that don't depend on small print run cards. The Legacy community has become overrun by loud whiners that feel entitled to something for nothing. It seems like every time a card price spikes or a deck that isn't merfolk or goblins takes a share, the sky is falling. Ban the card, reprint stuff I want, this situation is unfair, I deserve better, if you don't fix the situation (Ban stuff or reprint stuff) the format will die....

One thing is certain. You have been heard, it is just that Wizards disagrees with you. Deal with it. It is a game. I know that talking loudly and with some persuasion probably got you what you wanted when you were a child. Grow up.

[kiblast]

I think you're incredibly mistaken, and possibly fettered by a limited view. There's significant resentment towards Legacy in Asia and South America since staples are incredibly difficult to find there. Meanwhile, a huge chunk of pros don't really have memories going back pre-Masques, but would be happy to play in a format that includes nearly all of the cards they've known and loved but sans the $1,000 manabases.

As a young player (played since Invasion block through Kamigawa Block, then stopped and restarted with Shadowmoor) I'd love to try OE. I would not reject Legacy but would be nice to switch periodically from one format to other. Also OE could give opportunities to people to try out more decks without worrying about Duals, Fow, or Legends cards but only about Fetchlands,Confidants, Vials and Goyfs, for example. Also I'd love the deckbuilding challenge for a new eternal format.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It is a significant assumption you are making to suggest that these are the only options and that inaction will kill the format. There are enough staples for Legacy to be a popular format. There are not enough staples to make Vintage a popular format. This difference is substantial in my opinion. In my opinion, a popular format does not go the way of Vintage. Vintage, in the early 2000s, was not popular because I believe that playing with proxies is not playing Vintage. I am sure that Wizards would agree to the extent that playing with proxies is not playing Vintage.

What?

No, there aren't enough staples to sustain Legacy's current level of popularity. That's the whole reason that card prices are shooting up so dramatically, with no sign yet of stabilizing. This is even leaving aside cards like Candelabra and Tabernacle; duals, Wastelands and Force are not in enough supply to meet the format's demands.


Wizards has, and will continue to, add to our format in the form of new cards. They have an ability that people here often ignore, and that is to add new different cards to the Legacy pool. Just a few years ago, there was 2 fewer Merfolk Lords, several fewer anti graveyard cards, no trap cards to kill combo, no tinkering robots, no mana producers to rival birds, no Iona, no off color fetch lands, no nacatl, no Jace TMS, no Emrakul, no mox opal, one less goblin lord... Think for a second what has changed in the last few years and look onward to the future. There is already a free spell spoiled in the next set that will cause the balance to shift away from Combo.

I think you're delusional if you think that a free Extirpate sans Split Second is going to break combo, but you also seem to think Mindbreak Trap did the same, so I don't know what to tell you.

Regardless, the addition of new cards hasn't altered the drastic impact to the price of Legacy staples; duals, fetchlands, Wasteland, Force, Goyf, Vials, Tops have all been climbing dramatically, let alone less widely played cards. Wasteland is nearly a hundred dollars now. Prices are out of control, beyond any trace of doubt.


Certain decks, which represent a small population of viable decks, are limited by the card population. There are ten times as many viable decks that don't depend on small print run cards. The Legacy community has become overrun by loud whiners that feel entitled to something for nothing. It seems like every time a card price spikes or a deck that isn't merfolk or goblins takes a share, the sky is falling. Ban the card, reprint stuff I want, this situation is unfair, I deserve better, if you don't fix the situation (Ban stuff or reprint stuff) the format will die....

One thing is certain. You have been heard, it is just that Wizards disagrees with you. Deal with it. It is a game. I know that talking loudly and with some persuasion probably got you what you wanted when you were a child. Grow up.

Ironically, resorting to calling every critique you dislike "whining" is exactly what a child does. This signifies that you are either not interested in or not capable of a serious discussion, and your opinions can safely be dismissed as without merit.

I don't need anything in this format. My brother and I own enough duals and other staples to either build whatever we need or trade on par, or borrow from other members of Team Unicorn. Accessibility is not an issue to me. Format health is. I'm sorry that you don't have the foresight to show the same regard.


The sky is falling.

Why do you think 1. will happen considering the notably larger Legacy population and the support WoTC and venues like SCG already give Legacy.

Honestly this thread just seems like more of the same fear mongered whining already posted all over this forum and others. :(




+1

Because support encourages demand which spikes prices which drops demand which discourages support.

And see above.

Not every criticism of what exists is necessarily valid or sufficient, but dismissing any criticism as "whining" signifies that you are simply not interested in or capable of an adult conversation.

[Jason]

I only voted for the break the reserved list because it is the option closest to what I think should be done. As far as reserved list cards, they will not be reprinted; I've accepted that. I don't really care because cheaper (albeit sometimes worse) alternatives exist. Instead of shelling out for duals, players can play mono-colored decks, more basic lands or play some number of Ravnica shock lands. These players can acquire duals over time; players owning duals quit all the time and sell off cards. If you can't afford The Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale, don't play Lands.dec. If you can't afford Moat, play Humility (although it is on the reserved list, it is significantly cheaper; plus you only need one or two). Candelabra of Tawnos is a niche card and not necessarily a Legacy staple. LEDs are still relatively easy to get your hands on, but the price tag is annoying (it's also a combo-only card). The problem lies not with the reserved list cards but with the Force of Wills, Wastelands, Aether Vials, Crucible of Worlds and even standard cards which are legacy-playable like Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic.

[Sims]

Jack where's the option to just write off Legacy and go back to playing the format how it was before September 2004?

edit for content: Plus despite the fact that I know it won't happen, I voted break the reserve list.

[socialite]

Not every criticism of what exists is necessarily valid or sufficient, but dismissing any criticism as "whining" signifies that you are simply not interested in or capable of an adult conversation.


The sky is falling.

Why do you think 1. will happen considering the notably larger Legacy population and the support WoTC and venues like SCG already give Legacy.
Honestly this thread just seems like more of the same fear mongered whining already posted all over this forum and others. :(




+1

I apologize if you felt I was off base calling the constant complaints about staples and their impact on Legacy over hyped whining. Could you explain to me why it is something other than that?

All I see is baseless opinion and speculation about what will happen to an already ridiculously popular Eternal format.

[ramanujan]

Sometimes it is whining. When I notice that child is whining, it is not that I am not interested in a conversation with the child or that I am incapable of a conversation with the child. Without a doubt, you have made an assumption that you know where this is headed. I think that you should not assume such things. It is rarely correct to assume that you know how things will pan out. For what its worth, it doesn't' make a lick of sense to say that there are not enough staples to sustain the current popularity of legacy. The current popularity of legacy is being sustained by the current population of legacy cards.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I apologize if you felt I was off base calling the constant complaints about staples and their impact on Legacy over hyped whining. Could you explain to me why it is something other than that?

Because "whining" is a term used to refer to a complaint that is without legitimate redress, or to refer to any criticism or complaint made, no matter how legitimate, in order to dismiss it out of hand and thus avoid tackling the meat of the criticism.

Since there is meat to this criticism your use of the term would fall into the latter rather than the former category.


All I see is baseless opinion and speculation about what will happen to an already ridiculously popular Eternal format.

And if something is true of the moment it must be true forever, and it would be absolutely unprecedented and pointless to use our knowledge of past events, behavioral tendencies and principles of supply and demand to anticipate future events, or to determine that something is unsustainable.


Sometimes it is whining. When I notice that child is whining, it is not that I am not interested in a conversation with the child or that I am incapable of a conversation with the child. Without a doubt, you have made an assumption that you know where this is headed. I think that you should not assume such things. It is rarely correct to assume that you know how things will pan out. For what its worth, it doesn't' make a lick of sense to say that there are not enough staples to sustain the current popularity of legacy. The current popularity of legacy is being sustained by the current population of legacy cards.

Making a prediction that may or may not be valid is not whining. This only underscores how you have no serious or legitimate purpose in using the term other than trying to avoid having to come up with an actual argument for why exactly you think that current trends are sustainable.

And no it isn't. There are a very large number of people that would like to play Legacy but are forced to play either low-tier decks or avoid the format altogether due to high cost in the US and Europe alone, and the situation is much worse in Asia and South America where early staples weren't sold significantly.

[Lemnear]

What kind of poll is this? A joke? Two times a synonym for kill Legacy, one for mass-reprints and one for banning all? Seriously?

I don't think anyone got pissed As they announced the second Wasteland reprint as Judge Reward. I said it in several topics on the board: Reprints ARE ok ... but ... some people want them to drop prices drasticly that means doubling and tripling the existing number, resulting in a common-rarity-reprint of force of will for example.

Even the Forces might drop to 10$ and then the Next guy claims that they are still too expensive ... What then? Who are we to judge that 90$ per Force is a no-go and charging 10$ is ok in a free market?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What I find delightfully self-unaware is the pretense that it's the people asking Wizards to reprint cards that are asking for a favor.

They're not. The ones asking that the reserve list be kept are the ones asking Wizards to do something against its own interests. Wizards makes no money off of the secondary market for twelve year old cards. None at all. The natural thing for Wizards to do would be to reprint duals, Wasteland, Force, Mox Diamond, Tabernacle, etc.. in special sets or as promos. Imagine GP attendance if they gave away a dual just for showing up.

Wizards is instead being asked by people who don't want to reprint staples or do anything to lower prices to continue abandoning its own economic interests and the interests of a majority of its customers in order to prop up the value of a few peoples' collections.

So in fact it's the people accusing others of whining who are in fact asking for the continuing of an artificially maintained system of value that favors them at the expense of the general good, for no good reason at all.

And if you ever wondered why people vote Republican, congratulations, now you know.

[Flan R-E]

Yeah, I don't think it's necessary to change the reserved list to Reprint some expensive cards, or at least other cards that may not be functionally identical, but will at least fill a similar enough strategic role.. there could be another very good free counterspell that still does the major things that make FoW a staple, while being a different enough card to perhaps promote slightly different strategies to what FoW decks look like now. It could be like how Bloodghast fills a similar role Ichorid does in Dredge, but lends to a Different strategy and playstyle without being strictly worse or strictly better. note that this doesn't reflect price at all as both cards, and the deck in question are quite cheap. but i mean, I'm young, unwise, and new the format, any wisdom out there?

I also wouldn't be too peeved if prices kept steadily climbing, because they're already high enough that I can only play cheap decks anyway, unless I borrow cards from people.

[Clark Kant]

The poll is useless. Choice 3 won't happen so matter how much we want it to, Wizards already said they won't change their mind. :(

Choice 4 won't happen either, it would piss off way too many people and achieve nothing. Most of the expense of playing legacy comes from dual lands and fetchlands. Is Wizards going to ban those instead of simply printing viable replacements?

Choice 1 and 2 say the same thing. Overextended being aggressively marketed as a replacement will serve no purpose other than to make legacy a niche format with little support.

That would be a shame because modern legacy is easily the most diverse and varied format ever, in the history of magic. There are dozens of tier one decks and literally hundreds of viable tier two strategies and decks capable of winning a tournament in the right metagame.

There is one and only viable route that Wizards can take...

The bulk of legacy's expense comes from the manabase (duals and fetches). Power creep has made most other staples not as essential as they once were.

The easy fix is to print more fetchable dual lands that are near the same powerlevel, or at the same powerlevel as the original duals.

There's a million ways to do it.

New Underground Sea comes into play tapped unless you reveal one card in your hand to your opponent.

New Badlands comes into play tapped unless you lose a life.

New Tundra comes into play tapped unless you have an opponent gain a life.

Wizards actually has printed lands similar to all those examples. However the problem is that those wanna be dual lands they printed do not interact well with fetchlands at all (the Ravnica duals don't because Lightning Bolting yourself everytime you play a land is a horrible idea against any remotely aggressive deck.)

All they would need to do is print strong capable duals that interact with fetchlands and duals won't become a neccessity. You could shave hundreds off dollars off the price of the average legacy deck.

Yes, dual lands will always be technically superior to something like...


Island Swamp

As New Secluded Glen enters the battlefield, you may reveal a black or blue card from your hand. If you don't, New Secluded Glen enters the battlefield tapped. New Secluded Glen is both a swamp and an island.

This has a draw back over the original duals in that they make you vulnerable to Cabal Therapy and will often give your opponent a fairly good idea of what matchup they're facing as soon as you lay down a land. However, neither drawback is as devastating as lightning bolting yourself each land drop though.

However, the weakness to playing those instead of Underground Seas would be so minimal that it really wouldn't significantly weaken your deck in order to do so.

The Ravnica duals came the closest to achieving the same thing, because those were the only duals wizards printed since that interact with fetchlands. However, they are a horrible substitute because Lightning Bolting yourself each time you play a land is an autoloss against burn and aggro decks.

It doesn't have to be that way. Wizards could and should print more duals like Secluded Glen that you can also bring out with fetchlands. Printing such a land won't cripple standard. Anyone who thinks it will is losing perspective.

Reprinting the crap out of the fetchlands will also drive down costs and make the entry price into legacy more palatable.

To sum up...

1. Print viable replacements for the dual lands, for example, by making lands like Secluded Glen and Graven Cairns fetchable. If those two lands functioned with fetchlands, they would certainly see a lot more play.

2. Reprint cards not on the reserved list like fetchlands, tarmogoyf, force of will and wasteland, in a legacy specific release. Commandeer is a legacy/vintage specific set, these cards could and should show up in that set.

As much hate as the reserved list gets, other than the duals none of the overpriced must play legacy staples are actually on the reserved list. It's not the reason that card prices are unreasonable. And it can be worked around if Wizards prints viable alternatives to the duals.

[Koby]

I think an interesting case study would be to review the data from MTGO's gradual release of Eternal playables via Master's Edition.

Up until ME3, the choke point was Force of Will (from a terribly undersold set ME1), Lion's Eye Diamond (same time period), and the duals. USea was trading for about 45 tix. ME4 came about, addressed the shortage of duals, and now USea is at a steady <20.

The Magic Online Eternal community has had this discussion numerous times, and the best conclusion to each quarter's discussion resulting in promo releases of staple cards. Visualize a foil promo new frame Force of Will if you will. This is very simple matter to "program" online, but has not been implemented. I'm of the opinion that promo reprints (including, but not limited to GP attendance or even PTQs) would be the best avenue to not only introduce more copies into circulation, but also increase attendance at events.

This option results in a win/win/win scenario for WotC:
1. It appeases players on making OOP cards available without a high cost.
2. Increases tournament attendance, which typically translates into a competitive "bug" (read: repeated attendance)
3. Allows the singles market (dealers/ shop owners) to have a larger, and more broad market.

Is this plan feasible? Is it in the better interests of both the publisher and the consumer of Magic: the Gathering? Perhaps someone with better understanding of the commercial enterprise could fill in details that I may have overlooked or missed.

[perm]

As you note, the bulk of legacy's expense comes from the manabase (duals and fetches). Power creep has made most other staples not as essential as they once were.

The easy fix is to print more dual lands that are near the same powerlevel, or at the same powerlevel as the original duals.

Thats completely retarded. Duals are pretty obviously too good, as they are strcitly better than basics unless the meta is developed enough to have nonbasic hate for them. Wizards shouldn't warp and gut standard/extended/whatever to manipulate the card prices of this one format. Unless they print new cards that are like, media inserts that arent t2 legal.

[Clark Kant]

How exactly would my proposed new duals warp/gut standard. If anything, it would make standard much more diverse and make significantly more strategies viable.

[perm]

Because dual lands are too good. There should be consequences of playing multiple colors, and those consequences are a weakened manabase. When basic lands are nearly obsolete in standard, something is wrong

[GGoober]

Choice four seems completely unreasonable, as banning the worst offenders due to cost will just result in more worst offenders due to cost (whatever's "hot" at the time) until there aren't any good cards left and Mountain Goat costs $100 and gets banned.

That's basically going the way of EDH, which is MUCH worse than going the way of Vintage.

@Reprinting alternative-duals: They would not be released as Standard legal sets in Standard sets obviously. It will be released in the so-called 'EDH packs' or potentially what WotC may start printing as 'Eternal packs'. Visualize a pack of Tempest/Stronghold/Saga collection of 15 cards, with its commons/uncommons/rares, with both crap rares and uncommons and commons. Not sure how this will pan out, but I don't think it should present much issue except to the people who are sensitive to the Reserved List.

[Aggro_zombies]

Given that option #3 is out of the question, I chose option #4.

For reference, from Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment of the Day on Thunder Totem:


Aside on the Reserve List: I hate that it exists. Creating it in the first place was reactionary and causes me no end of grief. What I do like, however, is working for a company with integrity that will stand by its promises. So it isn’t going away, which is inconvenient but correct.

Given this comment and others by Wizards, #3 is a nice - perhaps even ideal - option that is off the table. Yes, in theory, there is a nonzero chance that these cards could be reprinted, but given popular opinion about the Reserved List in the past, the opinions of R&D luminaries like Forsythe and Rosewater, and the actions of the company despite those opinions, I would argue that it's sort of like saying that we can solve an environmental crisis by waiting for aliens to come give us their cold fusion technology so that we can have infinite clean energy forever. Perfect solution, ruined by impracticality.

That said, I would vote to ban the dual lands and reprint what can be reprinted (Force, Waste, Vial, etc). Banning the duals actually makes mana base construction more interesting in that there are real sacrifices to being greedy, and there are also real choices to be made (Rav duals? Shadowmoor filter lands? Painlands? Vivid lands with Reflecting Pool? And so on). Duals are also a large part of the cost associated with any multicolored deck. Random old cards like Moat and Candelabra will still be expensive, but they go in only a small portion of decks, and aren't necessary to build the vast majority of the available options; duals, on the other hand, appear in many decks which are otherwise rather reasonable to build in terms of cost.

Keep in mind that there are still plenty of cheap - and viable - options for the format. Affinity, Elves, Dredge, and mono-red Goblins all spring to mind (the latter not so much now because of Wastelands, but Ghost Quarter seems like a reasonable substitute), and Goblins is usually at least a solid deck, and sometimes the best deck.

[Karhumies]

As you note, the bulk of legacy's expense comes from the manabase (duals and fetches). Power creep has made most other staples not as essential as they once were.

The easy fix is to print more dual lands that are near the same powerlevel...


Arguably, this is what WotC has been doing all along. Why haven't these lands become commonplace? Because the originals are marginally - but strictly - better. Ceteribus paribus, that small difference is the essence of at least mirror match success/failure rate on very competitive levels.



New Underground Sea comes into play tapped unless you reveal one card in your hand to your opponent.
Secluded Glen


New Badlands comes into play tapped unless you lose a life.
Blood Crypt


New Tundra comes into play tapped unless you have an opponent gain a life.
Grove of the Burnwillows

Arguably, even if the drawbacks were smaller, the cards' inherent inferiority would still keep the duals' prices high.

Supposing that the WotC reprint and price elasticity policy will follow a Vintage-ish assumption of ceteribus paribus = doing nothing at all, the prices of mana bases will climb higher until Legacy = Vintage 2.0 (price-wise). I just can't realistically predict anything other than that happening for the dual prices, which is why I voted for option #1.


Although with combo decks becoming more and more viable, lands such as Gemstone Mine, Scars block of lands, City of Brass, Pain land cycle (Sulfurous Springs etc.) are starting to look very much like duals. In a non-blue = non-Brainstorm, non-Daze decks they could already replace the fetches + duals package at only a small margin of the overall manabase cost.


Ironically, with Wasteland price going higher as well, at some point it may well start paying off to go all-nonbasics because most people can not afford the Wastelands (although there are still Moon effects, Back to Basics, etc.).

[edgarps22]

Actually if they were to introduce those in the next block it would still be fairly sane since the Zendikar fetches are rotating out of standard, would be about as good as Ravnica duals were when Extended was well Extended. Honestly a lot of these cards could be reprinted without too much hard to the Standard or Extended format. Force of Will would be strong, but not format breaking since strong control decks generally don't run enough blue to support it, Wasteland would be unfun possibly but would keep new duals in check. Force of Will is one I want to comment on a bit more though. Force I think would be perfect in the next standard, without any real combo decks, stronger aggro decks, that would punish Force based control, it could be a simple blip. In extended it would still not do too much, since the next era will reflect the past standard in which decks like Jund were extremely popular. I do believe for standard at least if they reprinted Force that Mana Leak would have to leave the format as well, but Spell pierce is leaving as well, so where is the harm. What cards does a typical blue based deck have in it that it would be willing to pitch, Preordain? If they rotated out Mana Leak, did not reprint Spellpierce, and hell Jace, the Mindsculptor would be gone as well, there is barely any real blue cards, that would probably just be suboptimal to play, that would make Force strong in standard. I am sure decks like Grand Architect with Trinket and Treasure Mages would pop up, but those can easily be beat, and new strategies naturally can come up. Force of Will was strong in its Standard era because it was a combo filled era, against an aggro format, it is no where near as game breaking. And who knows, maybe they will accidentally create a combo that needs Force in the format.

Also functional, but not identical, reprints would be just fine, since fetches are going to be out of Standard, though in Extended, but you would not have them together in the format that they really care about, so it would not be that game breaking.

Also I voted to abolish the Reserved list, though that was most likely an order from someone at Hasbro, not within Wizards itself. From a business standpoint, I am a business student, it makes sense as it probably conflicted with some overall company policy about promises to customers, and might have been a result of any sort of class action lawsuit they might have faced if they had abolished it. I can see a few scenarios that would create that decision, and uphold it. I do not agree with that decision, but if the potential loss on the lawsuit was bigger than the potential gains they would get from selling the reprints, I can understand the point of upholding the Reserved List.

Overall I think the prices should plateau soon however. While the format has grown significantly, I believe we are reaching our critical mass, and prices are beginning to reflect that. With the best cards in the format that are not lands coming out of new sets these days it is much easier to assemble the shell of a deck, minus the manabase typically. Also fetches should not be considered a problem as their price is not prohibitive in any ways and were recently expanded upon in Zendikar. So what we really need are things like a reprint of Force of Will, perfectly hunky dory with Wizards, preferably in a Standard Block so the surge in availability is huge instead of minute A promo version of wasteland in some kind of duel deck, event deck etc etc, and functional, but not identical, reprints of duals. I believe that would solve most of the problem with Legacy, ignore the Reserved list, and make Wizards a ton of money.

[Doomsday]

I didn't vote. Assuming that $1500 decks are unsustainable is not an assumption I'm willing to make. If deck prices actually were unsustainable, I would hope they just push overextended. I like the reserve list and I think banning due to price is asinine.

[BooleanLobster]

The reality isn't so simple. Scarcity creates a lot of problems. It drives up prices to a point where they have difficulty coming down, because they cease to be merely cards and start representing financial investments for people. If people are neither selling nor buying those cards sit on the sidelines. Other people drop out of playing, perhaps temporarily, and don't sell out because they want to come back later. Other people that might want to get in aren't able to fork out $12,000 for a deck and so move on to other things. Interest in the format stagnates and then support dries up; from that point, the format becomes nearly impossible to ressurect, since no one wants to pay $1200 or even $800 if prices drop a bit to get into a format with no prize support and no community.

There's no perfectly efficient market for Legacy cards- quite the opposite- and "play tier 2 decks" isn't a solution.

This doomsday scenario appears to be predicated on two phenomena: a substantial fraction of Legacy staples collecting dust in the shoeboxes of former players who don't want to sell for whatever reason, AND potential new players avoiding the format due to cost/scarcity. (Please correct me if I've misread your argument.) I think both are unlikely.

A substantial fraction of Legacy staples are already collecting dust in the shoeboxes of former players. As prices go up, the rate of shoeboxes hitting Ebay should go up relative to the rate of current decks entering shoeboxes. Heck, look at threads on this site for the anecdotes. Some of the big collectors are talking about selling everything (or everything but one deck, or everything but 40 duals. Still, selling). On the whole, Legacy staples are coming out of shoeboxes, not going into them. The cardpool is growing.

Some potential new players will be discouraged when they decide that the best deck is out of their price range. For them, "play tier 2 decks" is not a solution. Plenty of others will play a tournament with an unmodified Standard/Extended deck and then begin upgrading. Others will start playing competitive Magic for the first time, decide that Legacy is the format for them, and put together a cheap Tier 2 deck. Yes, these new players will be very slow to migrate to stronger decks, perhaps even slower than they have been historically. Yes, local metagames will be full of bad decks, perhaps even moreso than today. That is hardly heralding the death of the format.

Your point about Legacy in Asia and South America is probably correct, though. If there isn't already a Legacy scene, then new players won't bother.

[ramanujan]

I said that the popularity of the format is being sustained by the population of the cards. How is this not true. Is refers to the present tense, which was the tense of your assertion you originally made. You inserted the word trend in your response, I didn't, in reference to sustainability.

You connected the point that you made an assumption with my comment regarding how people whine. I did not say that your assumption about the future was whining, I said that asking for reprints or bans was. I am just tired of hearing people complain when they know, if they thought about it, that their opinion has been heard, many times over, by the people who make the decisions. Wizards is not going to reprint dual lands, ever. You are mistaken if you think otherwise. Don't even hope for it.

I enjoyed that you cherry picked my examples of new cards that have changed the format. It was not an authoritative list. It was neither exhaustive nor suggestive that each card was amazing. The point is that Wizards has, in total, dramatically changed the face of legacy over the last few years through the printing of new card designs. There is a lot of freedom that wizards has even given the restrictions imposed by the reserved list. I did suggest that the yet to be released card is good against combo. It is in my opinion. Why don't we wait and see if it sees play.


Take this down by itself.


You have made an assumption of how this format will develop assuming the other options are not what occurs. Your assertion of the future state is that it will go the way of vintage. I do not see this being true. Care to elaborate? Remember that I can say that Legacy is popular and that attendance in tournaments is high. It would be silly if you were to assert that the card pool cannot support large weekly tournaments. What more could you want as evidence that there are a lot of Legacy cards. Vintage was never as popular as legacy is now, and the legacy tournaments are no proxy. Yes, there is a finite number of legacy cards. Yes, they are getting more expensive. However, tournament attendance is higher that anyone here imagined a few years ago.

There are enough legacy cards to support one of the largest tournament circuits in magics long history. The circuit is all over the United States, from coast to coast, running weekly events in excess of 100 participants.

[perm]

To increase the popularity of legacy, there is only one card that wizards needs to reprint en masse http://magiccards.info/tp/en/71.html

[edgarps22]

Perm you are made of win.

But seriously people, the solution is simple, and hopefully Wizards takes some of our suggestions to heart and thinks of new ways to help us out, while making money. Also stop taking things so personally, the original assumption is one being made across the board, so it is good to analyze it in that way. It is also good to bring in new perspectives, just don't get uppity because someone disagrees or has a different point of view on it. Be an adult, make your statements and see if we can cohesively come up with some good ideas. Wizards probably checks things like this forum for potential solutions anyways, so try to come up with some ideas.

On the note that reprints with a downside would still keep the original prices high, they could also spawn more diverse strategies. Grove of the Burnwillows + Punishing Fire is actually quite good against an aggro meta, trick is you can't fetch for a Grove, so why not make a fetchable version. I know I would at the very least test it, and probably play it if I were expecting lots of Goblins, Merfolk, etc. Taking some of the currently used drawbacks, and simply making them fetchable is not a bad idea, sometimes it could be preferred. For instance take the drawback of the current M11 duals, and simply make them fetchable, it means a basic is already in play, which means you are building a solid manabase anyways, work jsut as good as the original duals, and doesn't have lasting effects that benefit the opponent, like 2 damage from the shock duals or a constant +1 life from Grove of the Burnwillows. Instead of thinking in a state of Ceteris Peribus, which is crap by the way even from an economist's point of view, instead think of how to change things. All things staying the same only lasts for 3-4 months anyways. Who knows what cards the next set will bring and how it will change the format. Cards like Iona, half of Alara block, Tarmogoyf, Zendikar fetches, Stoneforge Mystic, Vengevine, all change the game, change how things are structured and how the format evolves. If you want change then try to help plan it ahead, and give some good ideas to Wizards, if it is good enough, and would benefit them, I do not believe they would ignore it.

Also be mindful of how your changes would affect not only this format, but others as well, though most of us do that anyways.

[raye]

I see people discuss the reserve list and explain how it is so unreasonable and how it is there only to protect the interest of a small few. I don't agree with the reserve list as a player at all. I would prefer for prices to be reasonable for all cards and by reasonable I do mean cheap.

But I do think there is a reason for it to be there. It is there to reward those players who supported the company in the very early days. Those that bought the cards when the game was a completely unknown. There was no realistic expectation of future value there. But these customers supported the company at a critical time and their reward, especially if they held on to their cards, is financial value. It might not make a lot of sense to present and future earnings but it does help customer confidence in the product on a long term basis. And Magic as a whole being a success in the long term is most important thing for Wizards and Hasbro, not just one format.

[DarthVicious]

I can't say I hate the reserved list. I've bought and sold some of the most expensive cards in this format, some before even running them in a tourney. I have owned a total of two playset of tops, three sets of mox diamonds, a set of goyfs, forces, every dual save a few, yada yada yada.

So, yeah. I've wasted some money on this game. And I haven't won anything from playing it. I love the game. Some people spend thousands on car stereo systems or video games or clothes. Girls spend more on shoes in the long run. Choose your poison.

I voted for abolishing the reserve list. It would be nice to have all these cards cheaper/more available so more people could get into the format and play whatever they want. Legacy could spread into unknown territory then, and the more widespread it is, the more support it gets.

But I don't believe its necessary for the health of the format. Nor is it necessary for maximum game enjoyment. I still play it.

[TsumiBand]

Can anyone tell me why an average of $1500/deck is acceptable?

I mean really, tell me why it's fine that the community both (a) wants Eternal formats to grow, but (b) also doesn't mind putting a $1500 price tag on that growth. And not just "doesn't mind" but "thinks it's fine" or "finds it okay" or even "doesn't see a problem with it".

Please, tell me how it's good for the game that the second most popular constructed format has an average entry fee of $1500.

[Backseat_Critic]

Put another +1 into the do what they are already doing category.

I think that the rising popularity of legacy has a lot to do with some recent awesome cards that have been printed. Even people that didn't start playing from day 1, could have a decent cache of legacy playables from recent standards. Just look at the creatures that are played in legacy now, and you'll see that the vast majority of them are from the last five years. Legacy is not the sensation it is now 'despite' the actions of wizards, but, in large part, a result of it.

I'd say all of the listed 'necessary' actions to save legacy on this poll are flawed.

1) The presumption is that legacy will die unless drastic action is taken, but that is a direct contradiction of the meteoric rise that we've recently seen. Eventually, the market will settle on a price, but right now people are definitely buying into legacy at the prices the stores are charging, ergo, not too expensive.

2) Wizards, I believe, rightly understood that old extended was a rotating format, and should be relegated to that role more closely. I assume that many old extended players jumped ship to legacy, and that explains some of the surge. I think that those players would prefer to play legacy for any reason but cost. Therefore, over-extended seemed unlikely and unwise. Legacy is the de-facto eternal format. It is popular. People like it. Why diminish it?

3 & 4) I feel that these options are two sides of the same coin. The effect of both would be to undermine the singles market aggressively. The argument is that 'Wizards makes no money off of the singles market.' This is true to a certain extent, but ignores basic causality. Let's say wizards releases a product that makes duals $20. Great huh? Wizards moves a ton of product, and players get to obtain previously expensive cards for much less. Players: Win. Wizards: Win.

Who loses? I'd say the insignificant part of this equation is the players who bought these cards for much more previously (myself included). They didn't actually lose anything, because the purchase of a dual today is a card you can use today. That has some value. Also, a card collection is not a 401k. The real losers are the brick and mortar and online shops. In the aggregate, they hold a large stock in these cards. If wizards crashes the secondary market the people who rely on that market to stay in business could be irreparably harmed. These are the largest engines for card distribution to players. They are also the people who organize tournaments. Without these stores, the ability to obtain tournament cards, or even play in tournaments, is under jeopardy.

Kill the stores, kill magic (including legacy). Even if the stores could make some money in short term spurts by selling these popular, hypothetical products, they would lose the largest section of value in the singles market: trust. A card is only worth what a person is willing to pay for it. If Wizards crashes a large sector of the card market, no one will ever want to spend big money on any card. Let that sink in. We complain about the prices of individual cards, but these hard to acquire cards are secretly the life blood of the game's financial viability. If card prices were held down due to lack of trust, that holds down the amount of product opened, which cuts directly into the profits of Wizards and it's distribution sources.

I posit that the herd's 'sky is falling' fixes to a format which, ironically, is more popular than ever, are short sighted and ultimately harmful. Lastly, let's all never forget that this is a game. If a person loves magic, he can play for the rest of his life off of a $20 investment. He may not win, or even be able to play in, any tournaments, but he can still play. On the flip side, if tournament magic is his desire, there will be some greater cost. If we can't, as a community, consider that fair, then I guess it's also not fair that we don't all own yachts. Then there's legacy. There are great decks that can be had for <$100 (dredge, elves).

Here's a series of questions:

1) Do you want to play high tide (for example) in legacy? YES
2) Do you want to shell out the money to play high tide in legacy? NO

Until the answer to number two becomes 'yes,' number one is irrelevant.

Call me a troll if you want, but I'll also add +1 to the whining tally. If we can afford to buy cardboard games cards, then I'd venture to say that food, shelter; necessities are taken care of. If we have the leisure time to play, and discuss, this game, then that is also a serious blessing. Just thinking about those two statements makes me feel like I won the lottery.

Thanks for reading. It's been a long one.

Cheers,
Backseat Critic

[Mana Drain]

Break the reserved list and reprint staples (duals, Force) and other random goodies (Candelabra, Illusion Mask) so that people can play the decks that they want to play without having to sell drugs to afford them. You can even give them alterate art/foiling so that Wizards has some bullshit excuse for breaking the RL. Wizards will make boatloads of money and the secondary market will completely crash, dropping card prices to insane lows, and nobody but collectors/speculators will be affected dramatically. It's just a game regardless.

There are no legal ramifications for breaking the reserved list (a non-binding statement made by Wizards over a decade ago). Anyone who says so is retarded/ignorant/biased/trolling.

Also, anybody who picked anything but the third choice is trolling. Just sayin'.

[Scordata]

So the way I see it, there's roughly 2 camps here: the people with duals/fows etc, and the people without.

I think the majority of the whining comes from the have nots. This is about as old as the game.
People, we are playing a COLLECTIBLE CARD GAME. It's not poker, it's not chess, it's Magic: The Freakin' Gathering. High card prices and chase rares have ALWAYS been a part of this. You thought Baneslayer Angel was bad at $50? Serra Angel used to be $80 round my parts. That was back in 1994 dollars. Anyone who DIDN'T have a Serra Angel whined about it. But guess what? They didn't stop playing magic. They just played other decks. Eventually, if they played long enough, they were able to TRADE for one. Imagine that! Actually trading cards you didn't want for one you did! This, ladies and gentlemen, was how the have nots became the haves. There's more than enough Standard cards that are equal to, or above the price of tons of legacy staples. Get out there and TRADE FOR THEM.

You guys really think legacy is going the way of vintage? If so, I want some of what you're smoking. The fact that a set of Forces will run you ~$350 is evidence that the format is GROWING. One of the huge reasons that Legacy is exploding is because the format CAN support $1.5k decks. Lots of these players have been playing on and off for a decade or more.

I played from Revised through Invasion. I stopped till m10. I got into legacy and TRADED for my first 1.5 deck, Burn. That became TES, which became ANT. Whaddayaknowit? Now I've got playsets, and in some cases, multiple playsets, of format staples. Guess who wants to trade with you? Guys like me. Guys who know its stupid to have 12 underground seas, when you only really need 4, and would be happy to get some Jace The Mind Sculptors, or maybe just some random foils for his EDH decks.

And I can already hear the whiners clamoring about how the reprint policy makes everything I'm saying invalid. Are you kidding me? Really? There were just as many Force of Wills out there when I got mine as there are now, and guess what guys? All of these cards have gone up in value relative to each other. Lots of Standard cards cost $50-$100 out of the damn pack, and there are way more of them out there than Force of Wills. I used to think $20 was expensive for a Masticore. Good thing I traded them before they rotated. Getting the picture here?

One the the reasons Legacy is as popular as it is, is because the format grew with the players. As the player base in general gets larger, so will legacy, because more people will have had access to these cards. Not to mention, new cards are getting printed in every set, that magically find a home in an old deck, or sometimes, a new one. Card collecting is a process, it is not meant to be so easy as to just find a deck under the couch cushions.

Force of Will being $90 is actually awesome. The hard work I put in to find mine is rewarding me substantially, as it will eventually reward you, if you put in the effort. Stop whining and start trading.

[Zamussels]

A lot of Legacy decks aren't close to 1500$. Most standard decks have 4 Jace and/or 10-20 mythics that run 600-800$ easily. Then lose half their value 3 months - 2 years later. Tons of people still play that format. I still have my legacy decks that I bought for less than standard decks cost today. Anyone that buys a 1000$ legacy deck instead of a playset of jaces and random mythics will be a winner next year. Or you can just sell the deck for the same price. Just don't see how legacy is in such a bad spot. Guess I disagree with the premise of legacy deck = 1500$ so difficult to discuss this intelligently.

[Jason]

I don't think promoting and pushing Overextended is considered trolling. I personally don't like the option because I don't have many cards that would be considered "staples" in such a format, like Ravnica duals and many quality cards after Onslaught/Legions/Scourge in order to play the format. Some people, however, would definitely much rather play in that type of environment. I've been playing much longer than many people (so I have many older cards); however, newer players and people who played "regularly" after Onslaught block would love to be able to play the game without having to worry about reprints and reserve lists and stuff that no one seems to be able to grasp. I wouldn't play Overextended because I sold a majority of newer cards for financial purposes. I would even probably abandon the game altogether if Legacy dies, but I can definitely see it as a legitimate option. If Wizards wants to adhere to the reserved list, it only makes sense they support formats that can make them money ala being able to reprint anything that is getting out of hand price-wise.

EDIT: $80 for a Serra Angel? You were getting ripped off, sir. I remember being able to pick up dual lands for $10. I actually remember when the power 9 became the power 9 because they were the first cards to go to $100. But I never, never remembered a Serra Angel being $80.

[sligh16]

Look at Yu-Gi-Oh TCG. When a new expansion is released, there are a couple of secret-rare cards that cost a bunch of dollars, for example, Pot of Duality, a semi Ponder that is about 120 bucks. Then, time passes, and it gets reedited (Pot has not been reedited yet, but other high costing cards like Judgment Dragon or Honest have been) dropping his price to less than half. You think people stop playing because of that?. No, more kids get to have their hands over the staples. The case with older Magic cards is similar, no one is saying that they need to reprint Power 9 or other crazy broken stuff, but Tabernacle, Force of Will, Wasteland, Candelabra and Recruiter would make no harm if they just could not be played in T2.
It's not that they cant (Reserved List bullshit)
It's that they don't want to do it, because there is fear underneath, a fear that they dont want to explain us about, thus, making their arguments seemingly nonsense.

[Jason]

People keep bringing up Force of Will and Wasteland along with dual lands and the reserved list. Everyone does know Force and Wasteland aren't on the reserved list, right? This is something that has been bothering me significantly.

[keys]

Because support encourages demand which spikes prices which drops demand which discourages support.[/b]

...which --wait, let me guess-- lowers prices?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't really have time to get into detailed arguments right now, so I'm going to make a couple brief points before crashing;

1) "Legacy is doing really well" is not an argument. We, as human beings, have cognitive capacities and the ability to comprehend the future. If you lack the imagination or wherewithall to anticipate the obvious, like Legacy hitting a brick wall when price of entry gets too high, then strategy games probably aren't something you should be investing in heavily in the first place.

What is happening now is not what will always happen, but the economic forces that we see in many different historic cases continue to exist. We can and should anticipate potential problems and seek to avoid them. Fifteen hundred dollars is a lot of money to the vast majority of people. To most people, that's several months worth of discretionary spending. And that's in the US, this problem is much more accute in other parts of the world.

2) The next person that gets the brilliant idea to make a post about how anyone complaining about the price of Legacy must just be someone "whining" because they can't build decks should step back, take a deep breath, and then literally fuck their own face, since that would be a far more valuable contribution than this spewing dreck.

Again, I face no personal barrier to entry in this format. I suppose if, for some reason, I wanted to play 43 lands, or if I wanted to play Permanent Waves I'd have to do some hunting, but I have enough duals and other high-price staples to build or trade for any given deck I could want to play. And if I don't want to make that effort, or plan a deck for an event ahead of time I can almost assuredly borrow any other card I could need from someone on Team Unicorn.

Most people do not have this luxury of access, and this is what concerns me.

Let me make it plain:

THIS FORMAT IS MORE VALUABLE TO ME THAN THE CARDS I OWN. I have more invested emotionally and chronologically in Legacy than I do in my duals. It is for this reason that I consider the health of the format to be more important than maintaining the current absurd price tag on duals and other staples, and for this reason I am disgusted by those who feel otherwise, those who feel that it's okay, even desirable to have $1500 decks be the norm and to shut low-budget players entirely out of the format.

If you think that people who don't have $1500 to toss around on a magical pretendy fun time game don't deserve to play this format, see again my advice about you, your face, and fucking it.

[eq.firemind]

And one more thig about hunting/borrowing cards and so on:
I am happy to live in a city with nice community and can borrow every possible card/deck. But it actually takes time and efforts to do that (and not only my time and efforts). Also, we all are people, we can have some sudden business, get ill and so on. And that will be a huge disappointment to not being able to do what you planned to.

Solution? Buy your own cards.

But here's another problem: I planned to buy some Karakas (they were 10-12$ before Reanimator rising), so I planned to spend that 40$ form next salary. The day came and Karakas is suddenly costs 50$ for a piece. Ok, I have 200$, but what the fuck!? I planned this buyment three weeks ago and now my plans are screwed. With current card price situation theese unnormal price jumps could happen every week!

MtG is a hobby to me. But to build a deck I need to put a good amount of work into it. So it stops being a hobby.

So I switched to MMORPG for now 'cause the only thing I need is to shell an established amount of money every month. Yep, no hunting for cheaper prices, no disappointments for price spikes and my friend caught cold and couldn't bring me cards. Just pay and enjoy - like the hobby should be.

[Hopo]

I'm under the impression that there are a lot of legacy players existing worldwide with their cards and decks. What would be the thing that suddenly would drive them away from legacy? I guess that's what it takes to legacy go to the way of the vintage. If you have your staples, why would you suddenly quit playing legacy? Out of empathy?

[Clark Kant]

As you note, the bulk of legacy's expense comes from the manabase (duals and fetches). Power creep has made most other staples not as essential as they once were.

The easy fix is to print more dual lands that are near the same powerlevel...

Arguably, this is what WotC has been doing all along. Why haven't these lands become commonplace? Because the originals are marginally - but strictly - better. Ceteribus paribus, that small difference is the essence of at least mirror match success/failure rate on very competitive levels.

Secluded Glen

Blood Crypt

Grove of the Burnwillows

Arguably, even if the drawbacks were smaller, the cards' inherent inferiority would still keep the duals' prices high.

Supposing that the WotC reprint and price elasticity policy will follow a Vintage-ish assumption of ceteribus paribus = doing nothing at all, the prices of mana bases will climb higher until Legacy = Vintage 2.0 (price-wise). I just can't realistically predict anything other than that happening for the dual prices, which is why I voted for option #1.

Although with combo decks becoming more and more viable, lands such as Gemstone Mine, Scars block of lands, City of Brass, Pain land cycle (Sulfurous Springs etc.) are starting to look very much like duals. In a non-blue = non-Brainstorm, non-Daze decks they could already replace the fetches + duals package at only a small margin of the overall manabase cost.

Ironically, with Wasteland price going higher as well, at some point it may well start paying off to go all-nonbasics because most people can not afford the Wastelands (although there are still Moon effects, Back to Basics, etc.).

The problem is that those lands are not anywhere near the powerlevel of the original duals for one single reason. Any and every wanna be dual land substitute must interact with fetchlands.

Those lands you brought up do not interact well with fetchlands at all (the Ravnica duals don't because Lightning Bolting yourself everytime you play a land is a horrible idea against any remotely aggressive deck.)

Fetchlands are among the very best lands Wizards printed in a long time. All they would need to do is print strong capable duals that interact with fetchlands and duals won't become a neccessity. You could shave hundreds off dollars off the price of the average legacy deck.

Yes, dual lands will always be technically superior to something like...


Island Swamp

As New Secluded Glen enters the battlefield, you may reveal a black or blue card from your hand. If you don't, New Secluded Glen enters the battlefield tapped. New Secluded Glen is both a swamp and an island.

This has a draw back over the original duals in that it makes you vulnerable to Cabal Therapy and will often give your opponent a fairly good idea of what matchup they're facing as soon as you lay down a land. However, neither drawback is as devastating as lightning bolting yourself each land drop though. You can play around Cabal Therapy somewhat by always revealing the worst card in your hand.

However, the weakness to playing those instead of Underground Seas would be so minimal that it really wouldn't significantly weaken your deck in order to do so.

The Ravnica duals came the closest to achieving this same thing, because those were the only duals wizards printed since that interact with fetchlands. However, they are a horrible substitute because Lightning Bolting yourself each time you play a land is an autoloss against burn and aggro decks.

It doesn't have to be that way. Wizards could and should print more duals like Secluded Glen that you can also bring out with fetchlands. Printing such a land won't cripple standard. Anyone who thinks it will is losing perspective.

[perm]

I own cards, but nobody is entitled to have their cards retain or appreciate value. That's the bottom line, nobody agreed to make your cards eternally valuable. You will be even bigger losers if legacy takes a turn for the worse, so people saying "omg my cards need to be valuable forever at every other player's expense" are a 100% irrelevant part of the equation. So are stores that sell them, card prices can change for any reason and do so already, cards being devalued will not spell death for stores because they too will be flooded with more cards to sell for a profit. They have done this through every reprint that has already happened

[nwong]

Well according to SCG, they're having trouble keeping stock for staples. If they have no stock, then they won't even lose anything if Wizards crashed the market for Legacy staples. They could just lower their prices and continue making the same amount of profit per card with their current margins.

I'd imagine other stores would be the same, unless there's a store out there that's hoarding piles of staples. So the argument that reprints would hurt the major distributors of cards is moot.

Players want reprints. Collectors...well who cares about them? They don't play the game, and they have the cards they're collecting already. Their collections won't go up in flames because of a reprint.

I think that covers everything.

[Pippin]

1) "Legacy is doing really well" is not an argument. We, as human beings, have cognitive capacities and the ability to comprehend the future. If you lack the imagination or wherewithall to anticipate the obvious, like Legacy hitting a brick wall when price of entry gets too high, then strategy games probably aren't something you should be investing in heavily in the first place.


How is that not an argument? Rather than analyzing the data at hand, you're making assumptions at what may or may not happen... I mean, I know I'll die at some point in future - so let me freak now and demand from government the cure for immortality instead of living a normal life?

I'll make 2 statements:
1) This is a CCG, so the price of cards is always set by secondary market. Until you have situation where you can walk into a local game shop, hand 100$ bill and get all 15k cards ever printed in a box... you can't really claim that something is too expensive. People pay 30$-100$ for cards they'll use for few months in T2, they pay 4$ per pack for 15 completely random cards (that is actually 6$ per pack over here) and no one is bitching about that. There are other games out there that aren't collectible - for example Dominion, or poker. You pay your few $ and get the same product like everyone else (instead of random cards)

2) What is the correct price for staples? Someone mentioned that $45 is acceptable for Underground Sea? But is it really? Why haven't those people bought Seas for that price back in the past? If Sea tanks to $45, what prevents people from claiming that it's still too high and they want 10$ duals? I can say you right now that in my local scene there wouldn't even be a 10% growth of players if mass reprints happen. Those that wanted to get in the format have already done so, those that have complained about prices didn't buy the staples when they were more affordable, nor would they buy them if prices drop considerably.
As a bonus - if you reprint something from reserved list and crash the prices, what prevents the price growth in future? Regular reprints each year, like a core set for eternal formats? Will Wizards need to hire some guys that will monitor the prices at secondary market, and as soon as card approaches lets say 20$... order a reprint? How do you solve this problem? Only thing that jumps to mind is direct singles sales from WotC. This is easy to comprehend since there's always another staple waiting around the corner that can have it's price increase to high levels (cards like Jace, etc)...


Forsythe made a great remark on the current situation in Legacy:

"@Conley81 Do you think that if 10K people can play Legacy but 15K can't that the 10K all just quit? Why would the format die and not plateau"

Seriously, not having the same speed of growth like in last 2 years (SCG circuit and big GPs) != death of format...

[Pulp_Fiction]

I totally agree with IBA. I can build a lot of shit but .... I think prices are ridiculous. Would Wizards ever make some savage set reprinting old cards for Vintage and Legacy ... no. But that would be spectacular. I mean really, I would like to build Eternal Garden again since I sold a lot of the cards off but thats impossible now since te price of admission is like 3.5k which is just ridiculous.

About 2 weeks ago I was talking w my buddies and we were discussing prices and I was totally unaware of what my Wastelands had risen up to. I bought 3 on eBay for 27$ like 8 months ago and thought I paid 2 much ... apparently not. Prices of Vial and Force, jesus, FoW was 25$ last I cheked now its just ridiculous. Who the fuck wants to pay 1k+ for each new deck you build. Given, if you have the staples things get cheaper but, even shit like Crucible of Worlds is out of hand now. If I wanted to build NO Elves I'm already looking at 500$+ just to build a deck that I may want to play once every 4 months.

To those who don't understand the point of the thread, here it is: prices are high and a lot of us want to play a variety of decks to keep things fun and interesting but since the cost of admission to playing these decks is so high it gets discouraging. Hell, imagine being a standard player wanting to play casual legacy ..... what competetive deck can you build for a realistic price? What happens when you get bored of burn? This game is a hobby, something we do for fun, and with the prices of cards rising as they are, it is really cutting into the amount of decks we can build and play. Simply because no one wants to spend 200-400$ on a playset of cards just because they are staples in a certain archetype and THEN have to pay 5-35$ for each additional card in the deck.

Regarding the Super Extended thing, if WOTC ever replaces Legacy with that shit .... I'm done forever with everything except the occassional EDH game. No its not fucking Commander, its Elder Dragon Highlander. God damn, I hate Wizards.

[Shabbaman]

People keep bringing up Force of Will and Wasteland along with dual lands and the reserved list. Everyone does know Force and Wasteland aren't on the reserved list, right? This is something that has been bothering me significantly.

Which only seems to be proof that Wizards doesn't really want to reprint these cards. Coldsnap theme decks would've been a perfect fit for FoW, though that might've influenced the price a lot. Reprinting it in FtV is still a viable option. But is FtV really a viable way of reprinting cards? FtV is a licence to print money. It also seems it's a licence for stores to ask whatever they want, despite MSRP. Who is picking up these boxes? If there's a FtV: Wasteland (or worse, a FtV: dual lands), who is picking up these cards and making obscene profits by reselling them? I've been lucky to pick up the first two FtV sets, but with Wizards' policy change I was unable to get the last two sets. I know I won't be able to pick up any new FtV sets, so if I'd want one of these reprints I'd have to buy it from someone. Someone who might've bought it for MSRP (or if it's a store, retail discount) but is reselling it for market value. Okay, I have nothing against reprints, because I'd rather have the cards than, well, half a playset, or worse, no cards. But reprinting has the potential to make some lucky people very, very rich. Now, if there's a chance that prices of the original cards drop, even if it's just slightly, are we making a few people rich while a lot of people lose money? If it's for the greater good, well, let's do it. It's not all upside though. It's not as if Chronicles made the world a better place.

[JACO]

What evidence do you have that $600-1500 decks are not sustainable in constructed Magic? I have seen no evidence of this based on the past and current market. The singles market is alive and vibrant, and sales have not slowed at all from my end or from the end of other sellers I know. For example, there is still quite the global demand for Wasteland even at what I personally would consider extremely high prices for how many exist. Sales will naturally slow a little bit when you can get a 3 playsets of Wastelands for $240 (20094Q), as opposed to one playset for $240 (20112Q), but there is still incredible demand and enough cards to support the demand. As Scordata wrote, the significant price increase aligns with the rapid demand and growth of the format. The price will plateau and drop slightly once people start getting burned by speculation, and more importantly when the currently large pool of people jumping into the format are 'in,' and have gotten a handful of staples out of the way to play competitively.

With that being said, the best solution within the bounds of the Reserved List would be to start reprinting the following cards (some again) as Judge Foils and/or in From the Vault. This would entail a fifth option in your voting poll, like 'Reprint allowable staples.' If a number of cards were reprinted even outside of the dual lands and things like Lion's Eye Diamond or Candelabra (all on the Reserved List) this would dramatically drop the price of entry into the format.

Some examples I would recommend for consideration:
AEther Vial - currently a $10-15 card; at its peak this was a $2-4 card in Standard
Force of Will - currently at $65-70 each (street, or $90 in online stores), there seem to be about a billion of these out there; reprint the shit out of this until it's a $6 card again and I don't think anyone would have a problem with that
Grim Tutor - pushing $160-200 simply because of scarcity, speculation, and slightly above marginal performance, this could easily be reprinted in either Standard or in a boxed set with little consequence to the Standard metagame; if anything it would actually be a tutor people MIGHT play (there's been basically zero serious play of Diabolic Tutor the past few years in constructed, because it's casting cost is prohibitively high when you could just cast something like Jace, Vengevine, or Stoneforge Mystic)
Imperial Recruiter - currently at $150+ ususally on eBay, the power level of this would be fine for Standard and Extended, and there's zero reason not to reprint this (and yes, I have my own already)
Onslaught fetchlands - these are about due for a reprint in Shake, or whenever the Zendikar fetchlands rotate out of Standard (October I believe)
Sensei's Divining Top - this was already reprinted as a FTV foil, so let's do it as a FNM foil or some other textless non foil promo version
Tarmogoyf - reprint it in a From the Vault set or the Shake block, and watch the price plummet and everyone who's been living under a rock can finally pony up and own them if they don't already
Wasteland - see Force of Will; this has already been reprinted as a foil twice, and let's do it again until it's back to being a $2-5 card

So you'd still have cards like dual lands and Show and Tell and Tabernacle remain expensive, but I think most people could live with that, and that would fall within the bounds of what is currently allowed to be reprinted under the Reserved List policy.

[perm]

2) What is the correct price for staples? Someone mentioned that $45 is acceptable for Underground Sea? But is it really? Why haven't those people bought Seas for that price back in the past? If Sea tanks to $45, what prevents people from claiming that it's still too high and they want 10$ duals? I can say you right now that in my local scene there wouldn't even be a 10% growth of players if mass reprints happen. Those that wanted to get in the format have already done so, those that have complained about prices didn't buy the staples when they were more affordable, nor would they buy them if prices drop considerably.
As a bonus - if you reprint something from reserved list and crash the prices, what prevents the price growth in future? Regular reprints each year, like a core set for eternal formats? Will Wizards need to hire some guys that will monitor the prices at secondary market, and as soon as card approaches lets say 20$... order a reprint? How do you solve this problem? Only thing that jumps to mind is direct singles sales from WotC. This is easy to comprehend since there's always another staple waiting around the corner that can have it's price increase to high levels (cards like Jace, etc)...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_fallacy

you're making a fallacy of the heap because you are demanding that our claims be arbitrarily precise. is there a magic number where the price NEEDS to be? of course not, price of cards change due to all sorts of factors. But this isn't a financial market, it's a game that exists for fun as the bottom line, so WotC arbitrarily reprinting when them and players feel prices have had a degenerative effect on a format that is obviously fun and popular. So the playerbase and wizards should roll over because there is no price written in the sky as specific as youd personally like it? cmon man

[kiblast]

I'ts incredible that so many people voted for the first option. Do you really want Legacy to implode? I can't get your point of view.

Anyway. Reading about the increasing price of the hobby makes me think of a comparison with another hobby I enjoyed in the past: Warhammer. The entry cost for Warhammer is probably as high as for Mtg Legacy, because you have to spend about 400-450 eur to buy a complete army and Army List, then you have to buy the rulebook (60 eur) and scenic materials to play (30-50 eur splitting the price between 2-4 friends). I'd say the initial cost is about 500-550 eur. Then every couple of years you have to buy a new rulebook, new Army List (25 eur) and new troops to have your army up to date with the newer rules and innovations (100-150 eur) so, in the first 2 years, you'll have spent probably between 650-700 eur. Moreover, if you want to paint your miniatures ( and I did and enjoyed it as much as playing with them) you have to spend 100 eur more for colours and brushes. And you need a suitcase to carry your army everywhere (+50 eur).
Keep in mind that, if you see your playsets of staples= WH troops, many staples keep their status of key cards forever, while lots of troops in Warhammer become obsolete and/or unplayable under newer rules/ Army lists. Mtg is an expensive hobby, as is Warhammer, but in Mtg you can cash out whenever you want to at a reasonable price, while in WH if you cash out you'll probably find out that your 800 eur very good painted army (as mine was) is valued between 250-300 eur.
I'm not justifying nowadays prices by any means, I'm just saying that the situation is not so awful as many of you believe (or better want to believe) and that there are other hobbysts in the world in the same if not worse situation as us.
That's why I don't want legacy to become a niche format, I don't want replacements for it and I don't want the banhammer for my FoWs.Simply because there's no sense and need for such extreme decisions. I just want to keep enjoying the game, and for people with litter budgets there should be a parallel, more cheap, eternal format.

[Gui]

How would the annoucement of the break of the reserved list affect the prices of these cards?

I mean, whoever worry about prices going down after the reprint of cards shall have enough time (from the announcement until the printing) to sell them. Then wotc prints FTVs and at least stabilizes the prices.

[perm]

How would the annoucement of the break of the reserved list affect the prices of these cards?

I mean, whoever worry about prices going down after the reprint of cards shall have enough time (from the announcement until the printing) to sell them. Then wotc prints FTVs and at least stabilizes the prices.

If WotC announces reprintings, the price of the card will immediately be discounted, so sellers won't really have any time to react and cash out at their original price. The price will be cover 90% discounted to the new price if the speculation is very accurate, and speculation may even overestimate the cheapening and volume of reprinting

[Gocho]

You can see it in MTGO with the reprint of Duals in MED4. The old Duals drop off 50-70% and keep a price 2-4$ up over the new ones.

[Gui]

If WotC announces reprintings, the price of the card will immediately be discounted, so sellers won't really have any time to react and cash out at their original price. The price will be cover 90% discounted to the new price if the speculation is very accurate, and speculation may even overestimate the cheapening and volume of reprinting

But what will happen when they announce the break of the reserve list, without the announce of what is going to be reprinted

[perm]

But what will happen when they announce the break of the reserve list, without the announce of what is going to be reprinted

being off the reserve list is light years away from being reprinted, that's hardly a super secret "sell" indicator for people wanting to cash out. they might as well sell now, the reserve list is meaningless for that

[Gui]

being off the reserve list is light years away from being reprinted, that's hardly a super secret "sell" indicator for people wanting to cash out. they might as well sell now, the reserve list is meaningless for that

With the reserve list up, they can just hold these cards and wait for them to rise on price. Without, they'd be taking their risk. I think WotC should break the reserved list, and after a fair amount of time, enough for these worried collectors to sell their cards (this should bring the prices down a little), they start anoucing, slowly, the reprints (FTV style). That way noone really loses, or at least, lose less, because whoever keep these cards will mostly be willing to play with them, whatever the price is.

Also, this would prevent people from holding unused cards, which rises the price.

[Clark Kant]

The poll is useless. Choice 3 won't happen so matter how much we want it to, Wizards already said they won't change their mind. :(

Choice 4 won't happen either, it would piss off way too many people and achieve nothing. Most of the expense of playing legacy comes from dual lands and fetchlands. Is Wizards going to ban those instead of simply printing viable replacements?

Choice 1 and 2 say the same thing. Overextended being aggressively marketed as a replacement will serve no purpose other than to make legacy a niche format with little support.

That would be a shame because modern legacy is easily the most diverse and varied format ever, in the history of magic. There are dozens of tier one decks and literally hundreds of viable tier two strategies and decks capable of winning a tournament in the right metagame.

There is one and only viable route that Wizards can take...

1. Print viable replacements for the dual lands, for example, by making lands like Secluded Glen and Graven Cairns fetchable. If those two lands functioned with fetchlands, they would certainly see a lot more play.

2. Reprint cards not on the reserved list like fetchlands, tarmogoyf, force of will and wasteland, in a legacy specific release. Commandeer is a legacy/vintage specific set, these cards could and should show up in that set.

As much hate as the reserved list gets, other than the duals none of the overpriced must play legacy staples are actually on the reserved list. It's not the reason that card prices are unreasonable. And it can be worked around if Wizards prints viable alternatives to the duals.

[Lemnear]

@Clark: As much as I like the solution to adress the issue by new printings (like the fetchable glen) instead of reprints, the problem is here that people don't WANT to play any "inferior" card if there's something better out there. There are 3 threads on the board adressing the issue and every one boiled down to 2 solutions to stop the crying:

1. Break the reserved list promise and print hundredthousands of 1:1 copies at common-rarity so Duals and Co. rival with a Cup of coffee over a Single buck in my wallet.

2. Print strictly Superior new versions of cards (Serra angel -> baneslayer) and be sure to make them Common too or the whole whinning repeats in a few Years.

[Michael Keller]

I don't blame Wizards for keeping me at the doormat of competitive Legacy these days, I blame OPEC.

[overpowered]

Why can't wizards just look at some of the most popular tribal decks (elves, merfolk, goblins, zombies, vampires) and print awesome new cards for them? Reprint 4x force of will for the merfolk decks, and put it in a new set as well... The goblins could get 2-3 of each "staple" goblin, etc.. You can drop the cost of $30 piledrivers AND make winning tournaments more accessible for newbies. I run goblins on a regular basis. I don't care if my deck is $900 or $50. Have nationwide Legacy sanctioned events where you get 4x Wasteland just for showing up.

Maybe drop the price of duals by printing a new mechanic on "strictly better" cards: "Runecursed" This creature/spell can only be cast with mana from basic lands == or "if you control any non-basic land, this spell costs (1) more for each non-basic land you control." If I could play a 4/4 for 2 green with Runecurse, I'd be running 24 basic forests. Just brainstorming.



I don't care what my cards are worth. All having expensive cards does is make trading require smartphones. I don't want to get rid of my staples because I WANT TO RUN those different decks at tournaments. I want to keep my cards, and I don't care if they're 10 cents each.



"In consideration of past commitments, however, no cards will be removed from this list."
BUT they did say they could print oversized cards... Anyone up for petitioning "Oversized Legacy"?

[Jander78]

Choice 4 won't happen either, it would piss off way too many people and achieve nothing. Most of the expense of playing legacy comes from dual lands and fetchlands. Is Wizards going to ban those instead of simply printing viable replacements?
Not sure if you were around in 2004 or not, but this is almost exactly what they did. Back then Legacy was a niche format and by removing most of the high costed offenders (i.e. Mana Drain, Bazaar, Workshop, etc..), they made this format much more accessible and lowered the entry costs substantially. It did piss a lot of people off, but in all honesty, it was an overall good thing for the format since it's bigger than ever.



Choice 1 and 2 say the same thing. Overextended being aggressively marketed as a replacement will serve no purpose other than to make legacy a niche format with little support.
Correct. This is also exactly what Legacy has done to Vintage over the past 6-7 years.



[B]1. Print viable replacements for the dual lands, for example, by making lands like Secluded Glen and Graven Cairns fetchable. If those two lands functioned with fetchlands, they would certainly see a lot more play.
No matter how a card is worded, unless it is somehow better than the original dual lands, it will always be inferior and the wrong choice to play with these substitutes over the current dual lands.


I don't blame Wizards for keeping me at the doormat of competitive Legacy these days, I blame OPEC.

I don't blame Wizards either. But, they are the only organization that can make the changes.

I've been seriously considering selling most of my collection that I've owned and used quite often since 1993. I should be in the "not whinning" category, considering I'm someone who stands to significantly gain from this price increase, but even owning full playsets of almost every Legacy card, these price hikes still seem foolish to me and absurd to anyone interested in getting involved in Legacy as a format.

[pippo84]

I'm not in the "price complaining people" because I already have almost all legacy staples. I think that the solution is to reprint cards to get lower prices.

Anyways I wanted to say that not all decks are expensive to play. There has just been a Legacy Tournament in Italy with 125 people playing.

I checked the prices of the decks that made top 8 on a website and this is what came out..

1 Belcher: 314$
2 Supreme Blue: 1296$
3 Zoo: 793$
4 Maverick: 806$
5 Elf Combo: 207$
6 UB Merfolk: 930$
7 Thopter: 1230$
8: The Gate: 355$

As you can see, also cheap decks can make good results. Also the Spiral Tide deck (version w/o Candelabra) is competitive and quite cheap to build..

[socialite]

And if something is true of the moment it must be true forever, and it would be absolutely unprecedented and pointless to use our knowledge of past events, behavioral tendencies and principles of supply and demand to anticipate future events, or to determine that something is unsustainable.

That is my point thought. What past events - Vintage? No. What behavioral tendencies? From my perspective Legacy has done nothing but go up.

Despite the weak argument of current players potentially leaving Legacy and their cards somehow not returning to the secondary market and being relegated to an unknown nether void I don't see how principles of supply and demand are going to influence future events or make the format unsustainable.

Honestly you could argue that the format is reaching or has reached a plateau but you give no note to the current player base that is already significantly larger than any other competitive Eternal format. Somehow that population is going to disappear and the format is going to die, cards will never be returned to the secondary market, and the format will become unsustainable for no reason other than “old cards cost money”.

Not to appear ignorant but quite frankly Asia/South America are not North America. Formats are going to be popular in different regions look at Vintage in Europe and tell me they don’t have better access to expensive older staples.

I’m sorry I will be honest and admit I haven’t taken the time to read any posts past page 1 of this thread so if you have come up with factual historical evidence of why you think Legacy is going to trend the way of the Dinosaurs please point it out to me.

[Vaxe]

I said this on Salv and I'm going to say it again.

When Magic is a game being played competitively for prizes (money):
More players = more tournaments = more fun/higher payouts
-> The drawback is that with demand, supply goes down and prices increase. But this is a tradeoff you have to be willing to make if you want to win CASH.

When Magic is a game being played with friends on the kitchen table:
You can proxy and not spend any money because no one is judging you, and you are not taking it to a a tournament.


Simple facts. You cannot expect to spend nothing and engage in a competitive sport, which is what Magic has become with SCG Opens.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

There's a simple solution to this whole bloody issue.

Wizards just needs to print cards that are good enough to make going non-tribal mono-colored a viable option for winning tournies. The main problem with the entering the format is that a manabase for a good multi-colored deck in Legacy is at a minimum $700. If Wizards prints new cards that encourage players to go non-triball mono-colored, we WILL see an influx of new players as the format's cost barrier will be significantly lessened. New players will still need to acquire expensive staples such as Wasteland, Force of Will, and Tarmogoyf, but that's significantly cheaper than buying 10 playsets of dual lands. Also, this works out in Wizards's favor as Legacy players would actually buy packs instead of going through the secondary market.

Ta-da! Problem solved!

[Tammit67]

There's a simple solution to this whole bloody issue.

Wizards just needs to print cards that are good enough to make going non-tribal mono-colored a viable option for winning tournies. The main problem with the entering the format is that a manabase for a good multi-colored deck in Legacy is at a minimum $700. If Wizards prints new cards that encourage players to go non-triball mono-colored, we WILL see an influx of new players as the format's cost barrier will be significantly lessened. New players will still need to acquire expensive staples such as Wasteland, Force of Will, and Tarmogoyf, but that's significantly cheaper than buying 10 playsets of dual lands. Also, this works out in Wizards's favor as Legacy players would actually buy packs instead of going through the secondary market.

Ta-da! Problem solved!

That would mean a TON of cheap combo hate, because no color outside of Blue can exclusively tote an even to positive combo matchup.

And no, discard doesn't count

[SpikeyMikey]

I don't quite understand this belief that high prices will kill Legacy. Yes, some people will get out in order to buy a car/house/yacht, but for every seller there is a buyer.

When you all quit Legacy, you will give your cards to someone else. He will play Legacy, and the size of the format will not change. If you had a substantial collection, it will probably be divvied up among multiple new players, causing the format to grow. Where is the shrinkage here?

The only wrinkle that I see is that if the people with the cards don't sell off for a long time, then by the time they are ready to pass the torch, there might be no younger generation with interest in the format at *any price*. It would be a glut (not just a crash - even in a crash there are buyers).

But that isn't going to happen. MWS and Cockatrice and such will keep interest in the format even among players who don't own a single dual. Tier 1.5 decks that are relatively cheap to build will keep the barrier to entry low enough.

When you finally start thinking about cashing out, there will be a horde of Ichorid, Burn, Mono R Goblins, White Weenie, Pox, and Elves players pestering you to sell to them.


The problem with your thought is that you're assuming that everyone with Legacy cards is a Legacy player. As the price spirals higher out of control, you see constriction in the market place, driving prices further up. No matter what people might say about Legacy's death driving down prices, it won't. The prices will be held stable because the people that hold these cards are tight-fisted and won't sell at a loss. The cards will sit in collections and collect dust. Juzam Djinn goes for $150, Library of Alexandria goes for $250 and Aladdin goes for $6 (SCG prices and LoA is sold out!). They're all the same rarity. They're all equally useful for tournament play (i.e. not). Juzam has almost doubled in price over the last 12 years despite the fact that it has seen play in exactly 1 deck (and not a popular one, it was a deck called Butterknives in T1 around the turn of the millenium) in that time span. Library is 2.5 times it's value in 1999 and it hasn't seen real play in Vintage (the only format it's legal in) since around 2002. I don't know what the price was on Aladdin back then, but I'd bet it was around $5-$6. It was never a collector hype card and thus not subject to the upward spiral of ever higher price.

Think about that one for a moment. Vintage died. I mean, there are some Vintage players still limping along out there but compared to where it was 6 or 7 years ago, it's as dead as the Wicked Witch. The format is dead and cards that were only good a decade and more ago are STILL increasing in value. What more proof do you need that players aren't the ones setting prices, collectors are? What do you think the chances are of cards like Candelabra going back down? It doesn't matter if High Tide lives or dies, or even if Legacy lives or dies, it's a $250 card now and you won't find it cheaper ever again.

Once the price on a card goes up, it's easy for it to stay up. If everyone bought in at $100 and nobody wants to sell for a loss, then $100 is the floor of where the card will sell at. If you want it to play the game, you pay $100 or you don't play with it. If you're talking a card like Jace 2.0 when Standard ends and you've got a lot of people selling, the price will slowly drop as there are enough people willing to sell at a loss to drive the price down, but it will not fall in line with it's decreased playability. Yes, it's good in Legacy and Vintage, but combined those two markets probably don't make up 10% of the Jace usage. There's no way Jace will see $10. It might bottom out at $50. That's the power of speculators.

Supply is more than just how many cards are out there. Not everyone with a Jace is willing to sell. There may be 3,000 playsets of Candelabra worldwide, but how many of those are actually for sale? How many have been snapped up by collectors that treat the game as a secondary aspect? I can't even guess at those numbers, but it's significant.

Personally, I voted for reprints. But we know it won't happen. And while some of you may not like the idea of cards being banned for price, I think it's the only way the format survives. The other option for breaking down the price barriers is proxying, and we've seen where that took Vintage. The reality of the situation is people will bitch more loudly about price bans than the "collectors" did about the reprint policy and the format will eventually die. Who knows when it will happen. To be honest, I didn't think the format could sustain prices this high; putting together a Bant deck this January cost me as much as putting together a playset of P9 and 40 duals did in 2000.

In response to the earlier post asserting that price bans would shoot Rav duals up to $50 each, I think that's unlikely. Fetchlands currently see as much play as duals do, if not a little bit more. Pricing on Rav duals would probably be a little bit lower than that, since Ravnica is a more recent set than Onslaught and Rav duals are not straight up replacements for real duals. A lot of decks would rather run other lands in place of missing duals than Rav duals. Can you see ANT fetching for two untapped Watery Graves at a cost of 6 life (i.e. 5-6 cards with AN)?

But I think most of the people in this thread feel that the reprint policy is going to lead to the death of Legacy as we know it. Either through proxy tournaments, price bans or just the actual death of the format as a competitive tournament format. So I think the poll question ought to be 'how do we strike back at the collectors whose speculation is killing the format we love?'

[GGoober]

Good points Spikey, but the same can be said for non-collectors/legacy players that we ourselves are hoarding a playset of playables for the format even though we probably only use 10% of the cards in our Legacy collection to play decks. How does one tell these people that they should sell cards they don't intend to use? You can't really answer the question 'how do we strike back at the collectors whose speculation is killing the format we love?" when everyone including me and you, are all responsible in the whole chain of supply/demand affecting the card prices. Obviously collectors contribute more negatively from our point of view, but from their point of view, they are probably pissed as well for there being so many Legacy players screwing up their collections by jackig up prices.

[troopatroop]

I don't blame Wizards for keeping me at the doormat of competitive Legacy these days, I blame OPEC.

Blame yourself. I witnessed you sell your Bant CB-Top deck to Eli for next to nothing. Control your emotions.

[Uly Van Hammer]

Im not sure where this average comes in. I spent a week on ebay and for $90 I bought myself LED-less dredge. Only suckers pay retail.

[socialite]

Put another +1 into the do what they are already doing category.

I think that the rising popularity of legacy has a lot to do with some recent awesome cards that have been printed. Even people that didn't start playing from day 1, could have a decent cache of legacy playables from recent standards. Just look at the creatures that are played in legacy now, and you'll see that the vast majority of them are from the last five years. Legacy is not the sensation it is now 'despite' the actions of wizards, but, in large part, a result of it.

I'd say all of the listed 'necessary' actions to save legacy on this poll are flawed.

1) The presumption is that legacy will die unless drastic action is taken, but that is a direct contradiction of the meteoric rise that we've recently seen. Eventually, the market will settle on a price, but right now people are definitely buying into legacy at the prices the stores are charging, ergo, not too expensive.

2) Wizards, I believe, rightly understood that old extended was a rotating format, and should be relegated to that role more closely. I assume that many old extended players jumped ship to legacy, and that explains some of the surge. I think that those players would prefer to play legacy for any reason but cost. Therefore, over-extended seemed unlikely and unwise. Legacy is the de-facto eternal format. It is popular. People like it. Why diminish it?

3 & 4) I feel that these options are two sides of the same coin. The effect of both would be to undermine the singles market aggressively. The argument is that 'Wizards makes no money off of the singles market.' This is true to a certain extent, but ignores basic causality. Let's say wizards releases a product that makes duals $20. Great huh? Wizards moves a ton of product, and players get to obtain previously expensive cards for much less. Players: Win. Wizards: Win.

Who loses? I'd say the insignificant part of this equation is the players who bought these cards for much more previously (myself included). They didn't actually lose anything, because the purchase of a dual today is a card you can use today. That has some value. Also, a card collection is not a 401k. The real losers are the brick and mortar and online shops. In the aggregate, they hold a large stock in these cards. If wizards crashes the secondary market the people who rely on that market to stay in business could be irreparably harmed. These are the largest engines for card distribution to players. They are also the people who organize tournaments. Without these stores, the ability to obtain tournament cards, or even play in tournaments, is under jeopardy.

Kill the stores, kill magic (including legacy). Even if the stores could make some money in short term spurts by selling these popular, hypothetical products, they would lose the largest section of value in the singles market: trust. A card is only worth what a person is willing to pay for it. If Wizards crashes a large sector of the card market, no one will ever want to spend big money on any card. Let that sink in. We complain about the prices of individual cards, but these hard to acquire cards are secretly the life blood of the game's financial viability. If card prices were held down due to lack of trust, that holds down the amount of product opened, which cuts directly into the profits of Wizards and it's distribution sources.

I posit that the herd's 'sky is falling' fixes to a format which, ironically, is more popular than ever, are short sighted and ultimately harmful. Lastly, let's all never forget that this is a game. If a person loves magic, he can play for the rest of his life off of a $20 investment. He may not win, or even be able to play in, any tournaments, but he can still play. On the flip side, if tournament magic is his desire, there will be some greater cost. If we can't, as a community, consider that fair, then I guess it's also not fair that we don't all own yachts. Then there's legacy. There are great decks that can be had for <$100 (dredge, elves).

Here's a series of questions:

1) Do you want to play high tide (for example) in legacy? YES
2) Do you want to shell out the money to play high tide in legacy? NO

Until the answer to number two becomes 'yes,' number one is irrelevant.

Call me a troll if you want, but I'll also add +1 to the whining tally. If we can afford to buy cardboard games cards, then I'd venture to say that food, shelter; necessities are taken care of. If we have the leisure time to play, and discuss, this game, then that is also a serious blessing. Just thinking about those two statements makes me feel like I won the lottery.

Thanks for reading. It's been a long one.

Cheers,
Backseat Critic

I just wanted to highlight this gentleman's post as he has been making excellent posts on various MTG sites regarding the issue (or non issue) that this thread highlights.

Keep up the good work Backseat.

[Uly Van Hammer]

I just wanted to highlight this gentleman's post as he has been making excellent posts on various MTG sites regarding the issue (or non issue) that this thread highlights.

Keep up the good work Backseat.

It's a gentlemans post for a childs game. This game is meant for teenagers, it's become too cost prohibative for them to even build tier 2 decks.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm not sure if I understand the logic that prices skyrocketing means that Legacy is healthy. That's usually just the opposite of reality. Most people playing Legacy right now did not pay current prices for their decks. This is true even for people who got in a year ago, much less long-time players. It's nonsensical then to say that the past year's worth of price spikes represent format health. Just the opposite. The format is running out of room; this is why prices are spiking. And the market is not efficient. It's not going to sink prices back down once people who are currently playing gradually decide to get out of the game. And as current players gradually lose interest and new players decide that this hobby isn't worth several months' rent just to get into, Legacy will die.

I mean this is a basic economic force you have to understand. Underground Seas being $500 a playset doesn't meant that all or most or even a significant number of current players with a playset of Underground Seas are or were willing to pay $500 for those cards. It means that Underground Seas are nearly all picked up, no one wants to sell enough to meet demand, and dollars are chasing the few duals still floating out there.

Tournament attendance is a lagging indicator here. Card prices are going to be a leading indicator of what the format is doing. And right now it's already showing signs of decay.

Also, I'm not clear how Wizards releasing promos or a Master's Edition that would sell like gangbusters would hurt Magic shops. It seems like this is the opposite of reality.

Card values fluctuate. I don't see why someone who's sitting on 200 duals should be sheltered from economic realities at the cost of everyone else.

[socialite]

I'm not sure if I understand the logic that prices skyrocketing means that Legacy is healthy. That's usually just the opposite of reality. Most people playing Legacy right now did not pay current prices for their decks. This is true even for people who got in a year ago, much less long-time players. It's nonsensical then to say that the past year's worth of price spikes represent format health. Just the opposite. The format is running out of room; this is why prices are spiking. And the market is not efficient. It's not going to sink prices back down once people who are currently playing gradually decide to get out of the game. And as current players gradually lose interest and new players decide that this hobby isn't worth several months' rent just to get into, Legacy will die.

I mean this is a basic economic force you have to understand. Underground Seas being $500 a playset doesn't meant that all or most or even a significant number of current players with a playset of Underground Seas are or were willing to pay $500 for those cards. It means that Underground Seas are nearly all picked up, no one wants to sell enough to meet demand, and dollars are chasing the few duals still floating out there.

Tournament attendance is a lagging indicator here. Card prices are going to be a leading indicator of what the format is doing. And right now it's already showing signs of decay.

Do you have any links to tournament data to support this? SCG Tournaments seem to be doing pretty well.

[Vaxe]

Backseat_Critic sums up everything I would say in response to the OP and other critics, but in a much more civil manner.

In my words: When you are playing for money, you need to invest money.
If you are not playing in a competitive tournament, go ahead and proxy. No one is stopping you from playing the game - an Underground Sea from an Epson printer functions the same as one from Wizard.

When a person threatens to quit Magic or foretells that Legacy will die because "QQ I want everything to do reprinted into $10 cardboards" -- I am just glad that person will always go through life as someone who has no perception of how the free market operates.

[Aggro_zombies]

I still think the poll is misleading because #3 in a nonoption. The closest we'll get to breaking the Reserved List for duals are snow duals (more on this in a second) and tweaked versions of cards like Tabernacle, Moat, Candelabra, etc. which would necessarily have pros and cons to them that set them apart from the originals. Depending on which version is better, the price of the originals may not be impacted at all.

A couple of weeks ago, Aaron Forsythe took questions on his Twitter account about various things Magic-related. I'm not going to dig it up here (it should still be there if you're willing to scroll), but there are a couple of things worth mentioning:

1) In addition to the Thunder Totem comment I previously quoted, Forsythe reiterated that the Reserved List is binding, not going anywhere, and that he can't comment on why the decision was made to strengthen it. The speculation is that WotC lawyers intervened to prevent its repeal, though for what reason is open-ended. We do know from accounts from both Blieweiss and Menendian (who were invited to Wizards to talk about the List) that both came out against it at the time.

2) Wizards has been considering the printing of snow duals as a way to help drop prices, or at least provide a viable alternative. The snow type makes them different enough that you're skirting the RL, but irrelevant enough that these will be the closest to the originals' power level that we can get without actual reprints. I'm paraphrasing here, but he said that the cards were a disappointment to all parties: those that do and those that don't want the original duals reprinted. He also added that Wizards was considering all options short of getting rid of the Reserved List.

Whatever they choose, they need to make a decision soon as the lag time for such a product to hit the market would be high - new art would need to be commissioned, the set would need to go to the printers and then be distributed, etc. If a paper Masters Edition-type set were released, WotC would presumably want to balance it for draft, which requires additional time and would break up the normal release schedule. A FtV set with snow duals would presumably take less time, but the print run would be small (so they would not be cheap given demand) and the foiling process would turn them into a marked-cards nightmare (FtV-foiled cards bend way more than normal foils). Wizards could instead release an entirely different product from what we've seen before, but again, the time lag could do serious damage to the format in the interim. The reality of prices is probably less important in the long run than perception of expense; UNL Power has been falling in price for years, for example.

Anything short of snow duals would fail to address the price issue as those cards would be vastly inferior to the original duals. We already have very powerful lands in the form of filter lands, Ravnica duals, painlands, and the like, and none of them are good enough to see play when you can just run the original duals.

I'm only addressing duals here because they, as a class, are by far the most ubiquitous expensive cards. Force, Vial, Wasteland, Tarmogoyf, and other recent high-value cards can all be reprinted at any time due to not being on the Reserved List. Moat, Candelabra, Tabernacle, and other high-value niche cards that see play in one or two decks are less offensive in the long run than staple mana sources; if you have the cards to build NO-CounterTop, Zoo, and Junk but can't afford the Candelabras to build High Tide, that's not nearly as bad as being unable to afford to build anything more pricey than Elves.

That's why I think they should ban the original duals and reprint what they can. It solves price problems in the near term and the replacements for the original duals are not clear-cut, but will depend on the kind of deck you have. It also prevents runaway speculation from turning off too many people to the format who would otherwise play if they felt they could afford to build [some deck not using Force, Vial, and Wasteland]. Finally, it requires relatively little effort or expense on WotC's part, although you could argue that player backlash would irreparably damage the format; I would argue that the public perception of Legacy being too expensive to get into is worse.

[Michael Keller]

Blame yourself. I witnessed you sell your Bant CB-Top deck to Eli for next to nothing. Control your emotions.

I have a family to support; I don't have the luxury of controlling emotions when it comes to buying and selling cards to make cash back on the fly. I can sustain losses because I have a great job, and believe it or not, I have an extensive collection of multiples which allows me to sell an entire deck at my leisure - if I needed the money then and there.

Spending money on cards is one thing. On gas, it's another. That was also at a time when Force was thirty-five dollars and Wasteland was fifteen.

Eli also gives me good deals - which he actually did believe it or not - because I do big business with him all the time. I have no problem selling cards back to him. I have a full set of Duals and Forces. That deck was approximately 90% extras upon sale. In the end, gas money is what winds up killing me on the trips to the events I attend. You figure you spend a good portion of your trip on gas, and assuming you Top Eight, you're just barely breaking even at any given advertised Legacy event posting decent prizes. How am I supposed to sustain that level of spending when I have no ability to really make cash off the trip anyways and can make more money selling cards and walking home with more bread?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Backseat_Critic sums up everything I would say in response to the OP and other critics, but in a much more civil manner.

In my words: When you are playing for money, you need to invest money.
If you are not playing in a competitive tournament, go ahead and proxy. No one is stopping you from playing the game - an Underground Sea from an Epson printer functions the same as one from Wizard.

When a person threatens to quit Magic or foretells that Legacy will die because "QQ I want everything to do reprinted into $10 cardboards" -- I am just glad that person will always go through life as someone who has no perception of how the free market operates.

I love when people that don't understand anything about economics start singing the gospel of what they believe to be "the free market."


Do you have any links to tournament data to support this? SCG Tournaments seem to be doing pretty well.

Uh. I'm not sure how that doesn't support my point, part and parcel of which is Legacy getting more popular over the past few years. Most people playing now paid somewhere in the realm of $1-200 for a playset of duals. Those are the people that are going to tournaments for the most part. The lagging indicator is prices, which have spike dramatically not because the format is growing at a faster rate- attendance from what I've seen seems to have stabilized at around 180-240, or about half the Standard showing- but because duals are becoming unavailable, in addition to some other staple cards. What's amazing is that even at these spiked prices, Starcity is still almost sold out of duals entirely.

And to top this off, people still don't seem to grasp that Legacy is and has aspirations of being a global game. Legacy is limited to Europe and North America, since accessibility is even worse in Asia and South America. South American pros were bitching about Legacy getting a GP back when you could build nearly anything for $800 or less.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Also, I'm not clear how Wizards releasing promos or a Master's Edition that would sell like gangbusters would hurt Magic shops. It seems like this is the opposite of reality.


Like Chronicles?

[Karhumies]

There is one and only viable route that Wizards can take...

...

2. Reprint cards not on the reserved list like fetchlands, tarmogoyf, force of will and wasteland, in a legacy specific release. Commandeer is a legacy/vintage specific set, these cards could and should show up in that set.

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this one. However, there are some aspects I would like to clarify about my earlier post related to your other point...


1. Print viable replacements for the dual lands, for example, by making lands like Secluded Glen and Graven Cairns fetchable. If those two lands functioned with fetchlands, they would certainly see a lot more play.

I agree with you in that better "2nd choice" fetchables would boost the amount of players moving from kitchen table proxies to small/local tournaments. This could solve the PRACTICAL problem of sustaining a Legacy community with new players joining, as there are reduced barriers of entry (lower costs & less effort required to get hands on the new fetchables).


However, when it comes to the PHILOSOPHICAL issue of "not affording old duals -> poor performance in mirror match in TOP TIER events":

There would be unequality on top tournament level because of the hefty price tag of the strictly better original duals. Given otherwise equal decks, skill and luck (which may be an improbable assumption in itself), this smallish difference would decide the mirror match winner in top tier games. All in all, this approach IMO only dilutes the problem we currently have. It can be argued that diluting instead of solving is good enough for practical terms (as I attempted to clarify above), but philosophically the same problem still exists: there are two tiers of people, like there are now - those with and without access to cards which are superior to their counterparts.

...and if there was to be something which is alternative to old duals instead of strictly worse, these new lands could be run alongside old duals instead of replacing them to create some currently unfathomable strategic advantage over the people who can not get their hands on both (dodging Extirpate hitting all of XY producing lands by diversifying between old dual and new dual is the first, although not the best, example to come to my mind). Which once again does not philosophically solve the issue.


In my previous post, I argued that if things progress as they are, Legacy will turn Vintage-ish. By this I meant e.g. high price of entry, maximum practical player amount gets reached at some point, new players almost completely cease to enter because of barriers of entry and low level of events.


It was pointed out that I was merely stating the current state of Legacy, which should be obvious to people reading this thread, and that this is not sufficient unless I suggest remedies (although by reading through the responses I think the situation is not yet evident to some people, and that the facts should be even more explicitly rubbed into their face). I would like to comply.

Firstly, one of the main points I had earlier (but which was promptly ignored) was the following: If you have a deck which does not greatly benefit from shuffling the deck mechanic of fetches (Brainstorm, S.D.Top, etc.), there are almost enough alternative lands to build up a completely non-basic land suite for a 2-color deck. Hopefully with future lands, 3-color deck. This is an alternative instead of being strictly worse in these specific kinds of deck strategies only (limitation #1 to keep in mind), because they have an alternative cost to mana fixing (something else than losing life), which is simultaneously both an advantage and a disadvantage (limitation #2: I consider the fetching advantage of "thinning" to be small enough to be negligible in the average course of 1 Legacy game to have real effects on game result). However, fetching for basics to dodge non-basic hate is something these decks can not do, which further limits them to being alternatives to completely-non-basic-land-base-fetch-dual-builds. Which is limitation #3, and which is the main problem of this strategy at least as long as Wasteland and other non-basic hate remains commonplace. This manabase option suits quite a narrow amount of current Legacy deck builds, I agree, but as new 2-3 color nonfetchable lands with alternative downsides are printed, should come about and perhaps even get popular eventually.


For the next few options, I beg to go out-of-the-box, and most certainly outside the extremely limited scope of the poll options.

2) As Legacy is not THAT serious as a GP/PT format and not-that-well supported by WotC to begin with, I personally can see future Legacy events being run like many Vintage events have been in the past: by allowing some proxies into the tournaments (strict limitation rules apply). I don't care about the practical implementation as such (proxy 5/10/X cards maximum, or proxy duals/lands only), which is up to the tournament organizer. The MAJOR downside of this approach IN THE PAST was that unsanctioned = no player rewards (which the players wanted very much). With the player reward program abolished, the current downsides are not having Eternal Rating affected, and "purists" with large collection complaining about letting players with less money to enter the tournament. Firstly, I choose to personally consider Eternal rating qualifying to WotC-hosted events as a secondary issue; but I acknowledge that eternal rating is a personal development goal or internet penis measurement to some players. Secondly, "purists" complaining in small tournaments should not be a problem, because in many communities there are generous players who borrow cards from their collection for free just to keep the local Legacy community alive. Also, not having to buy the most expensive cards can seriously affect the total price of investment, and make it more encouraging to invest in at least some cheaper Legacy staples and spread the hobby.

3) Ban fetchlands. Why fetches rather than duals? Because fetches can fetch basics and avoid non-basic hate, but running all-dual manabase to avoid mana screw would have a more concrete downside (vulnerability to non-basic hate), making duals much less good. I have not given sufficient thought to the implications of this approach. Most likely, I am advocating something completely unfeasible here, because it would be bad for counterbalance, which in turn has historically kept the combo archetype in check. Furthermore, it would advocate more mono-color builds which is most likely good for the budget but possibly "less subjectively fun" than the current format where multicolored decks are the norm rather than exception. But hey, it's a brainstormed concept. Someone could run some tournaments with that deckbuilding rule in place. I think the results would be interesting.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Like Chronicles?

Chronicles sank a few cards that were underprinted and played for novelty value, also largely due to being over-printed. Does anyone honestly think that there would be even the slightest chance of this happening if Wizards began, say, a series of 5 Duel Decks, where each deck had one dual in it?

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Chronicles sank a few cards that were underprinted and played for novelty value, also largely due to being over-printed. Does anyone honestly think that there would be even the slightest chance of this happening if Wizards began, say, a series of 5 Duel Decks, where each deck had one dual in it?

Chronicles caused a huge backlash from dealers that eventually brought about the reserved list, and no I can't see wizards making that mistake again (i.e. No reprints for expensive old cards on the list).

[Mr.C]

I think an idea I had a while ago is the best solution: the reserve list will be composed of cards that were only printed in english.

Problem solved. It would be the stuff that didn't make it to revised, antiquities and arabian nights, plus half a dozen cards from starter. Collectors are happy, players too.

Please wizards? Pretty please?

[keys]

I totally agree with IBA. I can build a lot of shit but .... I think prices are ridiculous. Would Wizards ever make some savage set reprinting old cards for Vintage and Legacy ... no. But that would be spectacular. I mean really, I would like to build Eternal Garden again since I sold a lot of the cards off but thats impossible now since te price of admission is like 3.5k which is just ridiculous.

Sorry I'm not following the order of this thread whatsoever, but I just wanted to make one point:

Part of getting more people in the format requires distributing playable cards and decks to new players (aside from reprints which are at Wizard's discretion). We're reaching a point where it's not easy to casually switch between flavor-of-the-month or pet decks without a significant investment. This is okay by me if it means tournament attendance continues to grow. It's a sacrifice we'll all going to have to make.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Chronicles caused a huge backlash from dealers that eventually brought about the reserved list, and no I can't see wizards making that mistake again (i.e. No reprints for expensive old cards on the list).

Unlike 1994, no dealer today lives under the delusion that they should or can be sheltered from fluctuations in card values. Dealers also stand to benefit from any reprint of duals etc.., and other cards, many of which aren't even on the list like Goyf, Force and Wasteland.

I think the word you may mean here is "speculators", which, again, fuck 'em. Magic isn't your 401k.

[sdematt]

I think there's a solution that helps everyone out without pissing off too many people and giving the most cards to the most people.

My thoughts are this:

You release a Timeshifted-esque set along with an expansion (ex. the next block in September). In each pack, you have 1-5 (not sure how many you'd need so that the price of the packs doesn't become infinite) cards from an alternate set, like Timeshifted. But, they aren't legal in any format except Legacy or Vintage.

You print 100 offenders of equal rarity in the set to drive the cost down of certain staples. By distributing in Standard legal sets, Standard players have the opportunity to either build staples to get into Legacy, or sell them to other players, thus increasing distribution of staples.

You'd also have to print these packs on mass so as to not have huge market shortages worse than they'd already be: you'd have to imagine "Hidden Treasures" scenario, but larger. Print the hell out of the set, thereby devaluing the cards in it (literally, they'd be printing money).

It'd be win-win for Wizards: you print cards that offend, but aren't necessarily on the reserve list, plus you sell a ton of packs.

Cards could be old art with new frame (with whiteborder?) to keep some demand for older, original, blackborder versions and thus, slightly higher prices (maybe $20 Whiteborder vs. $25 blackborder original?)

Cards that should see print: Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Force of Will, Top, Aether Vial, Brainstorm, Swords, Lord of Atlantis, Piledriver, Lackey, and the list goes on. Equal rarity would mean you wouldn't have a huge shortage of Forces or Wastes compared to Lord of Atlantis.

OR:

Release it as a stand-alone promotional set, not attached to a standard product, but with the same idea, with the same limitations.

--


Personally, I own a lot of duals and staples, but I'd be glad to see if they reprinted duals in whiteborder for more people to get into the game. Beta duals or Pimp copies wouldn't take a hit with a reprint, since a reprint isn't a beta dual. Reprinting in blackborder would be a worse idea, in theory, especially if you wanted to reprint duals. True, Magic isn't a 401k, and I stand to lose thousands of dollars if they reprint, but I DON'T CARE. I didn't get into this game almost ten years ago to retire. I got into it to have fun, and right now, when a child can't save their allowance to play a game, that sickens me, because I was in that children's boat not THAT long ago.

Thoughts?

-Matt

[Captain_Morgan]

Chronicles caused a huge backlash from dealers that eventually brought about the reserved list, and no I can't see wizards making that mistake again (i.e. No reprints for expensive old cards on the list).

That's like saying the first time you had awkward virgin sex something went awry and went counter to a person's expectations in teenage land. Did that stop said people from trying again and again? "Practice makes perfect" as seen with the rise of the From the Vault series and other random shenanigans that have met with much praise.

From what the nets have been saying about where a few years ago WoTC summonsed a whole slew of people that sold cards on the secondary and primary market said that the reserved list hurt more than it helped. Considering many dealers such as Starcity deal with primary and secondary markets, the increase in new product cycles such as selling and eventually reselling good product brings in profits. There is also the factor of creating a huge niche format, and frankly it's something that chokes out new players.

The faster rotation in extended has hurt extended's popularity, and increased Vintage as a place where "your shit doesn't rotate." I feel that the only other direction is to reprint specific staples like Force of Will and create new staples through the mechanics offered in upcoming sets. This would probably warp the game a bit, but the power level has reached with creatures and spells have weakened a bit. Shuffling around to print new staples with new mechanics would add in more competition for prices.

The other issue might be to ban some of the speed demon key cards to slow down the format. That means getting rid of the some of the mana accelerators and some of the larger staples like Tarmogoyf that kill off specific two casting cost creatures. The format goes for efficiency, perhaps too much efficiency. Slow down the format a step, increases the amount of candidates possible for exploitation. The larger card pool would then cycle back into popularizing more formally second tier decks into 1.0 and 1.5. I realize it might not be totally sexy, but splitting the format into non accelerated and accelerated would probably be better than "overextended." It would still create a rift between people that enjoy the current stamina, and others that do not. It would also create an additional format where dual lands would again be necessary, though.

I mean think of it this way, rather than just having Goblins and Merfolk as the sine qua non of tribal decks, slowing down the format would open up the format to Kithkin, more soldier decks, knights, maybe some rebel variants, vampires, and other competitive deck types that have since rotated out of other formats. While I doubt if we'd ever see a deck built around abusing Lin Sivvi in top tier, that doesn't mean that a vampires variant smoking goblins from time to time wouldn't be a bad thing.

The slower the format, the more cards that are competitive, the cheaper decks are, the more people play them. Ideally perhaps going back to the tempo of old extended when the Dual Lands were still legal in the format. Granted at that point there were a lot of quick decks, but curves were not as aggressive as today and there were far more creatures for specific slots. I would add into this playing with the entire banned list and putting back into the format:

Land Tax
Mind Twist


The other direction is to develop a restricted list such as putting dual lands into the restricted list for both Legacy and Vintage and follow up with an aggressive reprint policy on mana pool cards for the format. Perhaps adding some of the Moxes, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, and ect. to that restricted list for the format. This would equally enable people to play both Commander and Legacy concurrently with specific power cards. It would artificially slow down the price grab for staples, but long term as we have seen with Vintage prices they will continue to creep up.

Speaking quite frankly, I feel a slower format is probably a better format. This would allow more Extended decks to better compete in the mainstay, and would cycle in new deck types and open up more cross format hopping. So someone starts in Type 2, upgrades their collections through the intervening years in extended, and then rotate to the eternals. The question is how to slow down the format without emasculating what attracts people to it. That would allow some of the pricier cards to still exist in the format and some of the slower power cards to also rise in price, but there would be enough options to build a "cheap tier 1 or 1.5 deck" and win a tournament.

It would also encourage a higher amount of card cycles and paradigm shifts in the format as new card pools are introduced. One of the main drawbacks for WoTC is that for us in this format we don't really have to buy as much new product, but equally we do not get to play as many newer deck types that cycle through the years since some of the standard decks land themselves directly to the bottom tier by fiat of the format's speed. So the wider choice field for more slots would allow more comings and goings for specific decks.

So in short:

1. The format is too fast and efficient and thus has a smaller card pool
2. The smaller card pool drives up entry level
3. Slow down the format, increase the card pool, stabilize or give new credible options for beginners that can compete with older decks
4. Design would also need to be a bit more active in thinking up "specifically Legacy cards" that can be carried into the format

My main objections to a fast format are:

1. It slims down the eternal formats to just the most efficient cards versus how large the overall card pool actually is
2. Surgical bans would invite more players that have specific decks that are "good enough" in a slower environment, but too low tier to be truly competitive in this format
3. The current format encourages faster and faster cards to replace the fastest cards in the format, where as functionality and interaction rather than pure speed focus would open up deck building opportunities and new deck variants and more newer cards being tournament worthy.

[perm]

Collectors aren't killing the format, why is their preference for collection and that type of value better or worse than yours? the answer is, it isn't. They are free to value the cards personally as they choose. As an economics graduate, complaints about speculation in general make me l-o-l, so don't even get me started there.

[socialite]

I'm not sure if I understand the logic that prices skyrocketing means that Legacy is healthy. That's usually just the opposite of reality. Most people playing Legacy right now did not pay current prices for their decks. This is true even for people who got in a year ago, much less long-time players. It's nonsensical then to say that the past year's worth of price spikes represent format health. Just the opposite. The format is running out of room; this is why prices are spiking. And the market is not efficient. It's not going to sink prices back down once people who are currently playing gradually decide to get out of the game. And as current players gradually lose interest and new players decide that this hobby isn't worth several months' rent just to get into, Legacy will die.

I mean this is a basic economic force you have to understand. Underground Seas being $500 a playset doesn't meant that all or most or even a significant number of current players with a playset of Underground Seas are or were willing to pay $500 for those cards. It means that Underground Seas are nearly all picked up, no one wants to sell enough to meet demand, and dollars are chasing the few duals still floating out there.

Tournament attendance is a lagging indicator here. Card prices are going to be a leading indicator of what the format is doing. And right now it's already showing signs of decay.

Do you have any links to tournament data to support this? SCG Tournaments seem to be doing pretty well.

Uh. I'm not sure how that doesn't support my point, part and parcel of which is Legacy getting more popular over the past few years. Most people playing now paid somewhere in the realm of $1-200 for a playset of duals. Those are the people that are going to tournaments for the most part. The lagging indicator is prices, which have spike dramatically not because the format is growing at a faster rate- attendance from what I've seen seems to have stabilized at around 180-240, or about half the Standard showing- but because duals are becoming unavailable, in addition to some other staple cards. What's amazing is that even at these spiked prices, Starcity is still almost sold out of duals entirely.

And to top this off, people still don't seem to grasp that Legacy is and has aspirations of being a global game. Legacy is limited to Europe and North America, since accessibility is even worse in Asia and South America. South American pros were bitching about Legacy getting a GP back when you could build nearly anything for $800 or less.

So no? We have a solid player base touting the "required" staples with large tournaments and yet the format is going to implode?

Perhaps your "valid concern" should be changed to "Expensive Staples limiting the growth of Eternal formats in geographical locations already devoid of Eternal Magic before the great price spike of 2011".


All I see is baseless opinion and speculation about what will happen to an already ridiculously popular Eternal format.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Collectors aren't killing the format, why is their preference for collection and that type of value better or worse than yours? the answer is, it isn't. They are free to value the cards personally as they choose. As an economics graduate, complaints about speculation in general make me l-o-l, so don't even get me started there.

No one objects to collectors collecting.

People are annoyed when collectors filibuster the idea of reprints because it might threaten the value of their collections.

That is in fact crossing a threshold from "collector" into "speculator". At that point you're sitting on cards not because of their value to you, but because of what you believe you can get for them at a later time.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So no? We have a solid player base touting the "required" staples with large tournaments and yet the format is going to implode?

Perhaps your "valid concern" should be changed to "Expensive Staples limiting the growth of Eternal formats in geographical locations already devoid of Eternal Magic before the great price spike of 2011".

Your theory is that prices can sharply rise indefinitely with no negative repercussions and this has no reflection on underlying scarcity that could ever negatively impact the format?

I mean I think you're closing your eyes to what's not only obvious but necessary. The only reason for such a sharp price spike is that supply is rapidly vanishing. And the rate at which the cost of duals is increasing is itself increasing.

I simply don't understand how anyone could believe this to be sustainable, or think it doesn't reflect problems with the underlying health of the format. It seems a pure failure of imagination to say, "well, we're still getting pretty good attendance at the SCG opens, so the format is fine from here onwards." First of all, Legacy turnout isn't increasing drastically; it's pretty well stabilized, and still only about half Standard attendance.

Secondly, the current crop of Legacy players that were able to secure their manabases before they went insane are not going to be sufficient to sustain the format indefinitely, and it's becoming increasingly impossible to enter the format.

[perm]

I built my homebrew deck (ghostbusters) for about 500 USD, is 1500 really that common? I suppose if you use more than one playset of duals the price climbs. WHat this comes down to is wizard making power level mistakes at various times. Dual lands are just too good, as is tarmogoyf, as is jace the mind sculptor. Should they be banned? duals and jace tms of course not, tarmogoyf is debatable. But the real solution is to go back in time and tell wizards they are making a mistake.

So, why is candelabra such an expensive card? and tabernacle? The bottom line is because they came from sets that have been hard to come by for years and were never reprinted. If Candelabra and tabernacle were printed in chronicles, these niche cards with high but not broken levels of power would be an acceptable price, I bet close to 50 dollars. If Nalathni Dragon had all of its abilities except was a 2/1 for RR, it would be 150 dollar card because it's so ridiculously hard to come by. So what is really the problem with reprinting? "Some people would be upset because they don't get the prices they want" simply doesn't have a leg to stand on. Nobody is entitled to have the price stay the same forever or only increase, why don't any of you understand this? Price changes for tons of reasons. Should a deck type falling from popularity be banned too? Reprinting is one of the many reasons for price changes. It's just one of the few that can be positively manipulated.

[JACO]

There are a lot of inaccuracies here.


The problem with your thought is that you're assuming that everyone with Legacy cards is a Legacy player. As the price spirals higher out of control, you see constriction in the market place, driving prices further up. No matter what people might say about Legacy's death driving down prices, it won't. The prices will be held stable because the people that hold these cards are tight-fisted and won't sell at a loss. The cards will sit in collections and collect dust. Juzam Djinn goes for $150, Library of Alexandria goes for $250 and Aladdin goes for $6 (SCG prices and LoA is sold out!). They're all the same rarity. They're all equally useful for tournament play (i.e. not). Juzam has almost doubled in price over the last 12 years despite the fact that it has seen play in exactly 1 deck (and not a popular one, it was a deck called Butterknives in T1 around the turn of the millenium) in that time span. Library is 2.5 times it's value in 1999 and it hasn't seen real play in Vintage (the only format it's legal in) since around 2002. I don't know what the price was on Aladdin back then, but I'd bet it was around $5-$6. It was never a collector hype card and thus not subject to the upward spiral of ever higher price.Library is roughly $150 on the street, just as it has been for the past few years. It hasn't changed, except maybe on StarCityGames inventory. It's still played occassionally in Vintage, just like it has been for the past 9 years. Occassionally. Aladdin has always sucked, never seen serious play, and was reprinted in Chronicles. That's two negative factors determining the price. If Aladdin was remotely playable in the past, a rarer card in the set, and had not been reprinted the odds are it would be at least $60.


Think about that one for a moment. Vintage died. I mean, there are some Vintage players still limping along out there but compared to where it was 6 or 7 years ago, it's as dead as the Wicked Witch. The format is dead and cards that were only good a decade and more ago are STILL increasing in value. What more proof do you need that players aren't the ones setting prices, collectors are?Vintage is not dead at all. There are more Vintage players today than there were 5 years ago. The bigger tournaments are being held overseas typically though, and not in Wisconsin or your backyard anymore. The demand (and the weakness of the dollar versus the Euro) is what caused cards like P9 to rapidly rise the past 5 years. It has almost nothing to do with 'collectors,' and almost everything to due with player demand in places where the currency is very strong against ours, creating more buying power in their favor. There was a 3 year period where over 90% percent of the packages I was sending out to customers on MOTL and eBay were outside of the USA.


Once the price on a card goes up, it's easy for it to stay up. If everyone bought in at $100 and nobody wants to sell for a loss, then $100 is the floor of where the card will sell at. If you want it to play the game, you pay $100 or you don't play with it. If you're talking a card like Jace 2.0 when Standard ends and you've got a lot of people selling, the price will slowly drop as there are enough people willing to sell at a loss to drive the price down, but it will not fall in line with it's decreased playability. Yes, it's good in Legacy and Vintage, but combined those two markets probably don't make up 10% of the Jace usage. There's no way Jace will see $10. It might bottom out at $50. That's the power of speculators.That has nothing to do with 'speculation,' and everything to do with price memory. If someone who has a playset of Jaces in Standard plays Extended and Legacy they will be unlikely to sell their Jaces for $25 each if they may need them again later. If it was a card that was $10 and they were selling for $2.50 each after rotation someone would much more likely be willing to take a price hit of $7.50 each than $75 each. People generally remember what they paid for a card if they bought it themselves, and that's a huge price hit that someone is less likely to take if they feel they might have to rebuy the card later. Now if the card has the potential to be banned you see people flock in droves to sell theirs because it's better to take a good sized loss now than a massive loss later (for example, people were dumping both Survival and Vengevine in Legacy 20103Q, Foil Gush and Merchant Scroll in Vintage a couple of times, etc.).

When people feel it's the right time for them to sell, they sell. I used to have 140+ Force of Wills before they announced the first Legacy GP a few years ago (I hate proxying between decks, and had a lot of decks built). As the price hit $20, then $25, then $30 and up I sold them in batches, and still have plenty, most of which I will continue to sell over the next few months. Was it worth it to me to sell when they were $15 if I bought them for $10? Probably not. But if the incentive is there at a much higher price people sell (exibit people dumping their Wastelands and Forces right now on eBay). The market tends to correct itself more often than not. The format will not die to price issues. If anything it will die to lack of large tournament support. That single factor far more than anything drives playability and sustainability of a format.

The Reserved List isn't going anywhere, so people can bitch about it all they want, or you can campaign for the reprint staples that are NOT on the Reserve List (like my previous post).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't understand how someone can, with a straight face, say that prices doesn't matter. Of course price matters. People have limited resources, and other ways of spending money exist than playing Legacy.

This is why I don't feel the poll is particularly biased. #1 is synonymous with doing nothing. There is simply no reason on Heaven or Earth to think that higher and higher prices of entry won't affect the format's popularity at the tournament level.

[sdematt]

So, basically, Jaco and I are saying the same thing. Awesome.

What about distribution? Thoughts about a Timeshifted-esque or Stand-alone set distribution?

-Matt

[(nameless one)]

As the budget guy, I feel obligated to post here.

I don't know how feasable this idea is but all I can say is ban (yes BAN). Dual Lands. One of the reasons why the format is so expensive is because of the mana base. Also, I see Dual Lands as detrimental to the format. Really. Because of Dual Lands (outside of Wasteland), multicolor decks can run rampant without having drawbacks of being inconsistent. Yes there are other lands that produce two/more colors but they usually come with a drawback.

This way, WotC can keep their integrity of not revoking the Reprint Policy (Force of Will, Wasteland, AEther Vials, SDT are not in the reprint policy). Yes, Moats, Tabernacle and Candelabra are really really expensive but you don't need to build around those to have a competitive deck.

Besides, if WotC does abolish the Policy, is it guaranteed that the cards will see print anyways.

And if they do see print, its not like their value will tank overnight (see Wasteland, AEther Vial, Mox Diamond)

[Tammit67]

As the budget guy, I feel obligated to post here.

I don't know how feasable this idea is but all I can say is ban (yes BAN). Dual Lands. One of the reasons why the format is so expensive is because of the mana base. Also, I see Dual Lands as detrimental to the format. Really. Because of Dual Lands (outside of Wasteland), multicolor decks can run rampant without having drawbacks of being inconsistent. Yes there are other lands that produce two/more colors but they usually come with a drawback.



There are decks that prey on tricolor decks, ergo thresh variants. While 3 colors is great thanks to fetches and duals, there are certainly restrictions that you accept in building 3 color. Including rhox warmonk or wholly thoctar is very difficult in a meta of wastes and stifles. Often you can be cut off of a certain color, or you build the deck to include more lands (read: less action) than most lists to compensate for the diversity of your mana base.

Ultimately, multicolor decks are much harder to optimize and play perfectly in the face of mana disruption, which is not a trivial thing. The only saving grace is how consistant it is when not under such pressure.

Banning dual lands is a bad idea regardless. The drawbacks only serve to hamper decks that care about having to choose between CiPT lands and losing life lands (ie Control), and would destabilize the rock paper scissors arrangement against an entire archetype.

[Cabal_chan]

I don't understand how someone can, with a straight face, say that prices doesn't matter. Of course price matters. People have limited resources, and other ways of spending money exist than playing Legacy.

That's an easy one TIBA. As it was explained to me, if you don't want to shell out money on hobby then you're just not as dedicated. Afterall, no one's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play Legacy. Too expensive? Too bad for you.

Which is, unfortunately, the way it seems to be going. :(

[raye]

I don't know how feasable this idea is but all I can say is ban (yes BAN). Dual Lands. One of the reasons why the format is so expensive is because of the mana base. Also, I see Dual Lands as detrimental to the format. Really. Because of Dual Lands (outside of Wasteland), multicolor decks can run rampant without having drawbacks of being inconsistent. Yes there are other lands that produce two/more colors but they usually come with a drawback.



Isn't the reason mulitcolor decks are so consistent due to fetchlands and not dual lands? I would argue that fetchlands are why 3 and 4 color decks are playable without lands like City of Brass. You can FIND the color you need when you need it. If you get cut off, you can find the one that got cut. I recall playing multicolor decks before fetches were printed and it was far more difficult to get the exact colors you need. And it was out of the question to consider basics. Now, running a single basic in each of the colors you need is not only viable but a pretty good idea. The duals would be replaced with other fetchable two color lands from Ravnica and decks would not be 'shock'ingly different.

So it doesn't sound like you want duals banned because they enable successful multicolor manabases but because they are expensive. So it doesn't seem like you would ever advocate banning fetches, even though they make duals far better than they would be without fetches. But consider how shockingly strong nonbasic hate would be if basics could not be reliably accessed. Blood Moon and Back to Basics and Price of Progess would make 3 color manabases a serious drawback. Wasteland would be EVEN more powerful and expensive. Bannind duals does not sound like a reasonable solution to me.

[Vaxe]

I don't understand how someone can, with a straight face, say that prices doesn't matter. Of course price matters. People have limited resources, and other ways of spending money exist than playing Legacy.

This is why I don't feel the poll is particularly biased. #1 is synonymous with doing nothing. There is simply no reason on Heaven or Earth to think that higher and higher prices of entry won't affect the format's popularity at the tournament level.


Each SCG Legacy Open gets roughly 200 players. On any given day, ~20 copies of Underground Seas are listed on Ebay; supply is ample.
If you would refer back to my previous post and recall what I said: When you are playing for money, you need to invest money. If you expect to play competitively against the best in the world, and Magic at its finest and most tuned state, then of course you cannot substitute for inferior cards.
If you are playing at a mom-and-pop store for booster packs, or at a club, then no one cares about your deck (proxy, shock lands, etc).

Hoping that duals would be banned means you are selfish enough to think of changing the format's identity and integrity for the sake of money.

Frankly, I don't care if someone new to the format is unable to get in; playing against a field of 200 at different states across the US is good enough for me - the number of players joining the format is greater than the ones who quit.
If you are able to waste $400 on a playset of Jace for your Standard Caw-Go, then I have no sympathy for you. If you were wise enough to not have done this, then save up if you would like to play at a SCG Open. I heard 2k cash is pretty nice? It's called investment, and everything has a barrier of entry.

If you haven't realized, EVERYTHING has gone up: a gallon on milk, a loaf of bread, soap, movie tickets, GAS -- it's called inflation. Expecting Magic, an object like any other within society, to remain the same is ignorance. Magic is a hobby and can be a sport, it is not a necessity. No one is forcing you to play at a SCG 2k Open; you can still enjoy the game at home with friends.

If you are truly advocating what you say based on the hope of having more people join the format, then I applaud you for your noble efforts.
If, however, you are simply hoping to pick up duals for cheap (via reprints), or none at all (via bans), then I suggest that you reconsider your priorities in life and stop spreading illogical statements hoping to rally minds to your flawed ideologies.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm not sure where your accusations even make sense. If the price of duals plummets, then there's no sinister monetary incentive to want to buy cheap duals. If I want to unload the duals I have and make a profit, I should rather that they keep rising over time. There's frankly no possible motivation for me to want duals to be reprinted other than to broaden the format.

And your point about inflation is nonsense. If inflation on gas hit 250% a year the way it has for Legacy cards, you bet your bippy there'd be massive and negative repercussions.

Your point about investment also makes no sense. In most games, high payoffs correspond to high entry fees. You don't have to show up with a $1,200 poker deck to win a local $20 entry fee tournament; you show up with your twenty bucks.

Frankly, this and other posts strike me as more rationalizing than rational. You're grasping for reasons to justify the status quo, but why should there be a high barrier of entry to Legacy? Who does that serve or benefit? Are you terrified of the proletariat running amok at the next 5k? Why shouldn't kids or people that don't have that kind of disposable income be able to play this game at a serious level?

[Vaxe]

No one is telling you to make a T1 High Tide for a $20 event, or to even care about said event in the first place; you can have just as much fun with The Gate.
When you are investing that amount of money, then you would naturally attend one which corresponds to it: a SCG Open.

The barrier of entry exists because the payoff substantiates it. Even with professional sports, you pay premium for trainers, facilities, and equipments - and that cost is exponentially higher than that of the price for duals, FoW, wasteland, goyfs, etc.

When you want to be the best at an entertainment based sport, then you must be willing to make the monetary commitment. Fortunately for Magic, the outlet of SCG Open is now far more rewarding with higher payoffs than those of many athletic sports, which is why prices have gone up: because folks realize this and are playing to win cash.



I'm not sure where your accusations even make sense. If the price of duals plummets, then there's no sinister monetary incentive to want to buy cheap duals. If I want to unload the duals I have and make a profit, I should rather that they keep rising over time. There's frankly no possible motivation for me to want duals to be reprinted other than to broaden the format.

And your point about inflation is nonsense. If inflation on gas hit 250% a year the way it has for Legacy cards, you bet your bippy there'd be massive and negative repercussions.

Your point about investment also makes no sense. In most games, high payoffs correspond to high entry fees. You don't have to show up with a $1,200 poker deck to win a local $20 entry fee tournament; you show up with your twenty bucks.

Frankly, this and other posts strike me as more rationalizing than rational. You're grasping for reasons to justify the status quo, but why should there be a high barrier of entry to Legacy? Who does that serve or benefit? Are you terrified of the proletariat running amok at the next 5k? Why shouldn't kids or people that don't have that kind of disposable income be able to play this game at a serious level?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

People don't have fun playing suboptimal decks and they don't have fun losing. Anyone who advocates these as "solutions" to the Legacy shut out does not understand human nature and what makes games fun.

Legacy has and must exist outside of the Open series. In order to do so it must be competitive with other hobbies or people will play those other hobbies. Sniffing your nose and acting like Legacy has a stranglehold on peoples' entertainment is a sure way to kill the format. It is not written into the stars that people will continue playing Legacy. It can and will die if it becomes inaccessible.

I ask again: WHY shouldn't kids and people without infinite disposable income be able to get into Legacy? I would certainly never have gotten into this format if I had to pay the current price for my collection, and I doubt many people would either, including a lot of the top names in the game. Most of the people that play this format regularly and make the top decks, in fact, got in as teenagers when you could buy a top Legacy deck for $300 or so, scrimping and saving and trading up to that even. It seems mean, petty and spiteful to shut out today's teenagers, and on top of that destructive to the format.

What is gained? This seems the proverbial case of cutting off your dick to spite your girlfriend.

[keys]

I think the word you may mean here is "speculators", which, again, fuck 'em. Magic isn't your 401k.

Collectors have just as much right to collect the cards as players do to play them. Some people do view their collections as investments. Simply dismissing them and saying "fuck 'em" is quite selfish and immature.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Collectors have just as much right to the game as players do. Some people do consider their collections investments. Just dismissing them and saying "fuck 'em" is quite immature.

They don't have a right to have their collections subsidized by Wizards refusing to pursue its own economic interests and the interests of the large majority of players by maintaining accessibility to widely played cards.

[keys]

They don't have a right to have their collections subsidized by Wizards refusing to pursue its own economic interests and the interests of the large majority of players by maintaining accessibility to widely played cards.

Are you aware of what the word "Subsidize" means? Wizards is pursuing its own interests and the interests of players AND collectors.

I play the game, and I wish some cards were more accessible to newer players, but I respect the agreement that was made between WOTC and collectors/dealers with regard to the reserved list.

[BooleanLobster]

TIBA, I see two related but separate arguments here. One is that the high barrier to entry into the format is undesirable for moral reasons and for competitive fairness's sake. I completely agree with that.

The other seems to be that high prices will somehow cause Legacy to actually die out. I don't see the logic behind this at all. You need to show that new players will be locked out of the game. It is reasonable that some might be discouraged, but that's hardly the same thing. And even if many new players are locked out, that really just means that only potential new players with significant disposable income will make it in. While that is certainly morally/competitively abhorrent, it doesn't spell the death of the format if there are enough of them.

[Mr.C]

Are you aware of what the word "Subsidize" means? Wizards is pursuing its own interests and the interests of players AND collectors.

I play the game, and I wish some cards were more accessible to newer players, but I respect the agreement that was made between WOTC and collectors/dealers with regard to the reserved list.

Man, when will people realize that all these Legacy cards that people want to "protect the collectability" were nearly worthless when there was no player demand? Other than shit like Juzam and Beta stuff, all the other Legacy staples were worthless back in 2003, say. The only reason they rose was because of intense player demand. So now, Wizards is shafting the players, but if not for them, all these whiny collectors wouldn't have had their collections appreciate in value substantially.

Don't believe me? Check the historical prices of collector's cards, such as Juzam, Beta Shivan, Beta Force of Nature vs actual playable cards, such as Wasteland, Force and Revised Duals, or even Portal 3 cards, which were worthless, and only gained value because of players!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Are you aware of what the word "Subsidize" means? Wizards is pursuing its own interests and the interests of players AND collectors.

I play the game, and I wish some cards were more accessible to newer players, but I respect the agreement that was made between WOTC and collectors/dealers with regard to the reserved list.

How are they pursuing their own interests by protecting a market which doesn't profit them, instead of printing new product which would sell like gangbusters?

Wizards is literally foregoing millions of dollars to honor something that wasn't even an "agreement", it was a unilateral reaction to some very vocal complaints made years ago by people who are no longer with the company and which has no binding authority.


TIBA, I see two related but separate arguments here. One is that the high barrier to entry into the format is undesirable for moral reasons and for competitive fairness's sake. I completely agree with that.

The other seems to be that high prices will somehow cause Legacy to actually die out. I don't see the logic behind this at all. You need to show that new players will be locked out of the game. It is reasonable that some might be discouraged, but that's hardly the same thing. And even if many new players are locked out, that really just means that only potential new players with significant disposable income will make it in. While that is certainly morally/competitively abhorrent, it doesn't spell the death of the format if there are enough of them.

I think you misunderstand the economic forces. It's not the case that some other force set the price of duals previously at 15-35 each, and a number of players got in first come, first serve; and that now the price has been set by that same outside force to 60-120 each, and now we'll get more new players but only the rich ones, which well gentrify the place.

The overall number of players wanting to get into the format isn't increasing drastically; or rather, it began increasing drastically a few years ago and has stabilized since then. How do we know this? Counting tournament attendance, amongst other things.

What's changed is that there's less and less duals and Wastelands and Forces floating out there. Too few, in fact, for everyone who wants to get in to be able to do so. So what happens? Dollars start chasing each other as those who are trying to play have to bid higher and higher to push out other people. This in turn sets the market value of duals very high and makes more people that currently own duals, and bought them, usually, at much lower prices, to sell out for substantially less than that market value. This means that it's hard for the price to drop back to where the majority of players- including, remember, most current Legacy players- would not be able or willing to pay for them.

This prevents people from entering the format. And the thing is that as people get their Legacy decks, they'll start playing them less and less over time. People just tend not to maintain the same level of interest over time in competitive Magic. They'll hang onto their decks, usually, because they want to still come by every few months and fuck if they're paying today's insane prices for cards, but this creates the conditions for a dying format. And once we start down that path it's kind of hard to reverse, because people also don't want to spend a ton of money investing into a format that people aren't playing anymore.

[keys]

How are they pursuing their own interests by protecting a market which doesn't profit them, instead of printing new product which would sell like gangbusters?

Wizards is literally foregoing millions of dollars to honor something that wasn't even an "agreement", it was a unilateral reaction to some very vocal complaints made years ago by people who are no longer with the company and which has no binding authority.


Did you read Backseat_Critic's post? The dealers' interests ARE in their interests. Without a secondary market, eternal formats wouldn't even exist.

Go to law school before you try to judge what is or isn't a contractually binding "agreement". But that wasn't even my point. Wizards made a promise to collectors that they intend to keep, and there's nothing you or I can do about it.

[Gui]

Man, when will people realize that all these Legacy cards that people want to "protect the collectability" were nearly worthless when there was no player demand? Other than shit like Juzam and Beta stuff, all the other Legacy staples were worthless back in 2003, say. The only reason they rose was because of intense player demand. So now, Wizards is shafting the players, but if not for them, all these whiny collectors wouldn't have had their collections appreciate in value substantially.

Don't believe me? Check the historical prices of collector's cards, such as Juzam, Beta Shivan, Beta Force of Nature vs actual playable cards, such as Wasteland, Force and Revised Duals, or even Portal 3 cards, which were worthless, and only gained value because of players!

Exactly this. Suppose they ban Dual lands in legacy, what will happen to the prices? The prices are high because of the players, to start with. And collectors take advantage of the fact the the format just keep growing and the expensive cards are never going to be reprinted. Step 3: Profit.

I don't think the format will crumble, tho, not before it turn into an Elite format. What still brings new players to Legacy is the fact that some low cost decks are still able to win (different from vintage), but that won't be forever, because then, when most players play the same budget deck able to post results, these cards will be banned (or not, but even so, anything that makes a budget deck better makes a 3c $1500 deck even better, and then budget decks vanish).

Then, when the format is too elite for new players, these will play Pauper or something else cheap enough, and Legacy will turn into the new Vintage.

I'd rather they do something to lower the prices then see the format turn into a Private Club (which is almost the case already).

[Kuma]

More than anything, I wish Wizards would get rid of the reserve list.

That said, the more I think about it, the more I think banning dual lands is the solution to the problem if we assume the reserve list will never go away. And I own ~50 duals.

Wizards promised they'd never reprint dual lands, but they didn't promise they'd never ban them. Maybe Candelabra, Moat, and Tabernacle need to go too, since they can't be reprinted.

That said, I'm only for these bannings if Wizards reprints the remaining format staples in high enough quantity to bring the price down. They'd also have to print the proverbial "Snow-Covered Duals" or something similar.

Paper Masters Edition with some new cards, anyone?

[Tim the Enchanter]

I don't think any of the poll options, except #3 which won't happen, are acceptable if we want to continue playing the format.

1 and 2: Kill the format, and honestly who the fuck wants to play over-extended? No one cares about extended now and no one cared about it outside of PT season before they extra-standard. People play Legacy because of the power and options available both of which would be drastically reduced to point where it's no fun (obviously not for eveyone, but for many) and you would still end up with crazy prices on many cards.

3: Won't happen. Wizards said so.

4: Banning cards based on price is retarded and will only drive others to the same price tag.

As a solution to the duals you could make Scars duals that have at least basic land type so they are still fetchable. They're still sub-optimal but very playable, especially in agressive decks that don't require much land like Zoo and even ANT.

I haven't read all 120 posts and I'm sure what I said has already been said by others before but I thought I'd put in my two cents.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The general consensus seems to be that Shocklands would replace Duals in Legacy. If that's the case, I don't think it makes sense to say that prices will go back to the same level as current duals since;

1) Such a replacement would be less than ubiquitous; there are other multi-color lands that can be competitive with shocklands, depending on the deck, whereas duals are strictly better 99.9% of the time;

2) Shocklands are of a much more recent printing and were printed in greater numbers.

Playing Magic competitively isn't going to ever be the cheapest hobby, but it should at least be accessible. I'm not sure what income bracket most people non-plussed by $1500 decks fall into, but I would imagine their concept of what's affordable to most people is dramatically skewed.

[Vaxe]

It's futile augmenting the opinions shared by Wizards and several other posters. Some people are simply too oblivious to logic and argue out of raw emotion.

Facts:
1) They will never abolish the reserve list, get over it.

2) Trust between the secondary market and Wizards is what's keeping this game alive. Once it's go, so long Magic! Upsetting SCG and killing their margins ($120 stock diminished to $15) = no Opens = huge backlash for Standard and Legacy, or at least a rewind back to the stagnant 2005.

3) If you can't afford to play competitively in a $5000 tournament, don't. Enjoy your proxies and games at a casual level or with friends. You can't expect everything to be given to you and believe that you can win cash with no financial investments.

4) They will never ban duals. It's the glue that holds the format together.

5) Stop predicting that the format will die because people can't afford to enter. The only ones who fall into this criteria are those who consistently argues on this forum instead of being out and about - and making dough. Or those who are too busy playing Caw-Go.

[Mr.C]

The general consensus seems to be that Shocklands would replace Duals in Legacy. If that's the case, I don't think it makes sense to say that prices will go back to the same level as current duals since;

1) Such a replacement would be less than ubiquitous; there are other multi-color lands that can be competitive with shocklands, depending on the deck, whereas duals are strictly better 99.9% of the time;

2) Shocklands are of a much more recent printing and were printed in greater numbers.

Playing Magic competitively isn't going to ever be the cheapest hobby, but it should at least be accessible. I'm not sure what income bracket most people non-plussed by $1500 decks fall into, but I would imagine their concept of what's affordable to most people is dramatically skewed.

When stuff like Golf, Firearms , and Airsoft are cheaper than playing magic, you know you have a problem.

What about the idea of condensing the reserve list into rares from Beta, Arabian Nights, Antiquities and Starter 1999 that were only printed once (in English?) I mean, duals were already reprinted in 1994 and 1995 anyway, so there is a precedent.

[BooleanLobster]

This in turn sets the market value of duals very high and makes more people that currently own duals, and bought them, usually, at much lower prices, to sell out for substantially less than that market value.
This makes no sense. People who have cards and want to sell out will sell for approximately market value, not substantially less. Anyway, I don't see how people selling for below market value implies your next point, that high prices are sticky.


This means that it's hard for the price to drop back to where the majority of players- including, remember, most current Legacy players- would not be able or willing to pay for them.
You posit that high card prices are sticky? Look at Survival (http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Exodus/Survival+of+the+Fittest/). The price nearly doubled from September to November on hype and winnings. When it was banned, did the price stick? No, with no more demand from competitive legacy to support the price, it dropped 60% in 2.5 months. High prices are not sticky when demand disappears.
And if the demand doesn't disappear, that means people still want their cards - presumably to play with.


People just tend not to maintain the same level of interest over time in competitive Magic. They'll hang onto their decks, usually, because they want to still come by every few months and fuck if they're paying today's insane prices for cards, but this creates the conditions for a dying format.
If they think today's prices are insane, they will sell their decks (probably all but one) when they lose interest, with the rationale that by the time they want to play again, prices will have come down from the insanity. Who holds on to expensive things to deliberately avoid getting them cheaper later?

[trivial_matters]

It's futile augmenting the opinions shared by Wizards and several other posters. Some people are simply too oblivious to logic and argue out of raw emotion.

Facts:
1) They will never abolish the reserve list, get over it.

2) Trust between the secondary market and Wizards is what's keeping this game alive. Once it's go, so long Magic! No SCG Opens = death for Legacy, or at least a rewind back to 2005.

3) If you can't afford to play competitively in a $5000 tournament, don't. Enjoy your proxies and games at a casual level or with friends. You can't expect everything to be given to you and believe that you can win cash with no financial investments.

4) They will never ban duals. It's the glue that holds the format together.

5) Stop predicting that the format will die because people can't afford to enter. The only ones who fall into this criteria are those who consistently argues on this forum instead of being out and about - and making dough. Or those who are too busy playing Caw-Go.

Stating that the reserve list will never be abolished or that duals will never get banned as a fact is untrue.
Not all people who play Legacy and not even everyone who participates in tournaments is out to win cash. People like to play with good cards and dislike proxies, because playing with proxies is not as fun as playing with real cards. I don't think anyone expects to be given anything. Just a bit more reasonable prices.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's futile augmenting the opinions shared by Wizards and several other posters. Some people are simply too oblivious to logic and argue out of raw emotion.

Facts:
1) They will never abolish the reserve list, get over it.

2) Trust between the secondary market and Wizards is what's keeping this game alive. Once it's go, so long Magic! Upsetting SCG and killing their margins ($120 stock diminished to $15) = no Opens = huge backlash for Standard and Legacy, or at least a rewind back to the stagnant 2005.

3) If you can't afford to play competitively in a $5000 tournament, don't. Enjoy your proxies and games at a casual level or with friends. You can't expect everything to be given to you and believe that you can win cash with no financial investments.

4) They will never ban duals. It's the glue that holds the format together.

5) Stop predicting that the format will die because people can't afford to enter. The only ones who fall into this criteria are those who consistently argues on this forum instead of being out and about - and making dough. Or those who are too busy playing Caw-Go.

Simply asserting that your argument is logic and that others' arguments are illogical is in fact itself a logical fallacy. First of all, logic is a GIGO system; it's fairly easy to make a perfectly logical argument that is also completely wrong. And while it's true that an argument being fallacious means that it's necessarily wrong, you need to show why an argument is illogical. Otherwise you're begging the question. This is no different, really, from saying, "You shouldn't listen to my opponent because he's wrong." "Why is he wrong?" "Well, for starters, his argument is incorrect."

And that brings us on to where saying "Facts" and then listing assertions does not make those assertions facts.

1) This is a prediction and as such cannot be described as a "fact", even if you are very likely to be correct. It would be a fact, however, to say that Wizards has said that they will not abolish the Reserved list.

2) And this is why cards off the reserve list, like Jace and Goyf and Force of Will and Wasteland, aren't worth anything or heavily pursued by the secondary market, right?

3) This isn't a fact, it's a value judgement. You have made a value judgment that Legacy being popular isn't important. Others do not share your value judgement.

4) See #1, only in this case there's no particular reason to assert that they'll never ban duals.

5) It's poor form to make your own predictions and forbid others from doing the same. Also, I'm assuming you either are in a high income bracket or have parents that are, because you seem shockingly unaware of how much $1,500 really is to the vast majority of Americans and the world at large. Hint: it's a lot, especially to be spending as disposable income.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This makes no sense. People who have cards and want to sell out will sell for approximately market value, not substantially less. Anyway, I don't see how people selling for below market value implies your next point, that high prices are sticky.

You've misinterpreted me; I'm saying people won't sell for below market value in substantial numbers.


You posit that high card prices are sticky? Look at Survival (http://blacklotusproject.com/cards/Exodus/Survival+of+the+Fittest/). The price nearly doubled from September to November on hype and winnings. When it was banned, did the price stick? No, with no more demand from competitive legacy to support the price, it dropped 60% in 2.5 months. High prices are not sticky when demand disappears.
And if the demand doesn't disappear, that means people still want their cards - presumably to play with.

Prices are sticky but not perfectly sticky. Barring some massive jolt like their being banned, reprinted or obsoleted by better duals, their price will not fall significantly or at a significant rate.


If they think today's prices are insane, they will sell their decks (probably all but one) when they lose interest, with the rationale that by the time they want to play again, prices will have come down from the insanity. Who holds on to expensive things to deliberately avoid getting them cheaper later?

I don't think many people who have been in the game a long time are getting the message, "Go ahead and sell your cards. They'll be back to 2003 levels by the time you want to come back in." The latter occurring would pretty much require the format to die or for duals to become useless for getting back into the game.

[Vaxe]

1) Wizards did, in fact, address that they will not reprint anything on the reserve list in honor of their previous agreement with the public. Abolishing the list entirely in lieu of this would not make logical sense, especially from a company who has been in the industry (and continues to thrive) for such an extended period.

2) The secondary market does not expect Jace TMS, Goyf, Wasteland, FoW to retain their value because such cards are not on the reserve list. There will be no breaching of trust should they become reprinted. The day Phyrexia vs Coalition was announced was the day I picked up more Underground Seas for $50, Trops for $40, and Tundras for $35 - because a large influx hit Ebay out of fear that the reserve list will be abolished. Fortunately, Wizards caught on and made the aforementioned announcement to assure the secondary market.

To address your counterarguments for 3, 4, and 5:
Magic is a collectible trading card game - the validity of cards carrying their current value is because they are highly playable and players know that they will retain their collectible aspect as well (unless point 1 is breached, which goes back to the issue of trust).
To play competitively, as said many times by myself and other posters, you have to invest the money. Saying that Zoo, Goblins, Belcher, Dredge and Merfolk are not competitive or "fun" is an understatement. Such decks cost less than $600 and consistently Top 8 at SCG Opens. Not all T1 decks cost $1500, get over it.

What you are trying to say is that "players should be able to play anything they want competitively for shots at winning $2000 with little to no investments". I disagree. For reasons, see my previous posts.


Simply asserting that your argument is logic and that others' arguments are illogical is in fact itself a logical fallacy. First of all, logic is a GIGO system; it's fairly easy to make a perfectly logical argument that is also completely wrong. And while it's true that an argument being fallacious means that it's necessarily wrong, you need to show why an argument is illogical. Otherwise you're begging the question. This is no different, really, from saying, "You shouldn't listen to my opponent because he's wrong." "Why is he wrong?" "Well, for starters, his argument is incorrect."

And that brings us on to where saying "Facts" and then listing assertions does not make those assertions facts.

1) This is a prediction and as such cannot be described as a "fact", even if you are very likely to be correct. It would be a fact, however, to say that Wizards has said that they will not abolish the Reserved list.

2) And this is why cards off the reserve list, like Jace and Goyf and Force of Will and Wasteland, aren't worth anything or heavily pursued by the secondary market, right?

3) This isn't a fact, it's a value judgement. You have made a value judgment that Legacy being popular isn't important. Others do not share your value judgement.

4) See #1, only in this case there's no particular reason to assert that they'll never ban duals.

5) It's poor form to make your own predictions and forbid others from doing the same. Also, I'm assuming you either are in a high income bracket or have parents that are, because you seem shockingly unaware of how much $1,500 really is to the vast majority of Americans and the world at large. Hint: it's a lot, especially to be spending as disposable income.

[trivial_matters]

What you are trying to say is that "players should be able to play anything they want competitively for shots at winning $2000 with little to no investments".

I don't think playing in tournaments in order to win money is the primary reason most people play this game, Legacy included. I don't understand what this has to do with the discussion at hand.

[BooleanLobster]

Prices are sticky but not perfectly sticky. Barring some massive jolt like their being banned, reprinted or obsoleted by better duals, their price will not fall significantly or at a significant rate.

I don't think many people who have been in the game a long time are getting the message, "Go ahead and sell your cards. They'll be back to 2003 levels by the time you want to come back in." The latter occurring would pretty much require the format to die or for duals to become useless for getting back into the game.
Even if prices are slightly sticky on the way down, they certainly do move. As demand dips, prices will react. Demand will react to that - the guys who were ok with $1300 decks but not $1400 stop selling, and the guys who were ok with $1400 but not $1500 start buying back in. It might happen in bursts and swings, but that isn't the same as a collapse.

Anyway, you still haven't proven that high prices of top tier decks lock out new players from cheaper decks. I agree it discourages them somewhat and warps local metas, but that isn't the same as locking them out.

[Gheizen64]

I don't see why so many people discuss about banning duals. Sure, duals are the biggest offenders, but the format would be drastically changed. Before banning duals in Legacy i'd prefer them creating overextended.
Wizard let Vintage die and will probably let Legacy die for the same reasons; they think they gain more this way, plain and simple. When staples in the most "cheap" format goes for 80 thanks to mithic rarity, you know the company is basically shitting on the players because they know they can.

[Gui]

I think the best solution WotC can take, if they are not ever going to ban Dual Lands nor remove them from reserve list, is to print cards as good as Old Duals.

They failed so far just because every single time, they were not half as good. These duals should have no drawback and be fetchable (ORLY?).

I can think of a non-identical land with these caracteristics:

Fake Tropical Island
Land - Island
Tap: add :g: to your mana pool.

Problem solved, Fetchable and no drawback, print two, one for each type, for each Dual land, over some years.
They could even add some CiP Tapped drawback if it enter after you have 3 lands, IDC. Still works for me.

But I feel that someone will say "this is nonsense! Too strong!" etc...

Fact is that they can solve the problem... they just don't care, imo.

[Vaxe]

Many of you have been basically saying the same thing.
If you are not taking the deck to a tournament but still would like the card nonetheless, then you are merely buttressing the concept of ownership. Magic is collectible, and part of that definition is scarcity. There is a reason why Wizards coined the first collectible trading card game, because of its dual nature: playability and collectivity.

You cannot abolish one aspect and hope that the structure of the item remains intact. There is a reason why Magic cards continue to hold their value: because people believe that the cards they own or purchase will retain their value, and this is the trust between Wizards and the secondary market. Doing anything that would suggest otherwise would lead to a very slippery slope.

Legacy is perfectly healthy and the entry is really not as steep as $1500. See my previous post for the list of Top 8 decks that cost under $600. No one is forcing you to play High Tide/ Junk / Team America / CounterTop/ ANT-Doomsday. You can be just as competitive and have just as fun playing something else that can stand its ground. The point is that there will always be a barrier of entry - especially relevant to a game that is also collectible. This is a fact that you should embrace rather than reject, because it makes the entire environment a lot from dynamic and fun (trading especially). It's a culture.


I don't think playing in tournaments in order to win money is the primary reason most people play this game, Legacy included. I don't understand what this has to do with the discussion at hand.

[keys]

When stuff like Golf, Firearms , and Airsoft are cheaper than playing magic, you know you have a problem.

I don't see any problem with this. At least with MTG, you can sell your cards when you quit and get close to or more than 100% of your cost of entry back. You can't say that about any of the hobbies you mentioned.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Even if prices are slightly sticky on the way down, they certainly do move. As demand dips, prices will react. Demand will react to that - the guys who were ok with $1300 decks but not $1400 stop selling, and the guys who were ok with $1400 but not $1500 start buying back in. It might happen in bursts and swings, but that isn't the same as a collapse.

Anyway, you still haven't proven that high prices of top tier decks lock out new players from cheaper decks. I agree it discourages them somewhat and warps local metas, but that isn't the same as locking them out.

I don't have data on this off hand, but it's basic human nature. People don't go to tournaments to lose. This is why the guy you see sit down with that 80 card Scion of Darkness deck will either adapt or stop coming to tournaments.

This is an easy mistake to make because in movies, video games, and various media there are always faceless hordes of people that are content with their nameless mediocrity. This is not true in real life. Everyone in the real world wants to win and will avoid activities in which they don't win. This is actually why adults are so much worse at learning than kids- as you get older, your tolerance for sucking goes down and no one's there to force you to suck it up.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

1) Wizards did, in fact, address that they will not reprint anything on the reserve list in honor of their previous agreement with the public. Abolishing the list entirely in lieu of this would not make logical sense, especially from a company who has been in the industry (and continues to thrive) for such an extended period.

Why would that be illogical? Saying you're going to do something and then later doing something else isn't illogical; it's changing your mind. It may be unethical depending on the circumstances, but there's nothing illogical about it. In fact arguments are predicated on the idea of people being able to change their minds.


2) The secondary market does not expect Jace TMS, Goyf, Wasteland, FoW to retain their value because such cards are not on the reserve list. There will be no breaching of trust should they become reprinted. The day Phyrexia vs Coalition was announced was the day I picked up more Underground Seas for $50, Trops for $40, and Tundras for $35 - because a large influx hit Ebay out of fear that the reserve list will be abolished. Fortunately, Wizards caught on and made the aforementioned announcement to assure the secondary market.

You're citing the fact that reprinting duals will lower the price of duals as a reason not to do said reprint, despite that being exactly the intention of those asking to reprint duals.

Prices fluctuate. If you play Magic by finding once card whose value you expect to rise endlessly and buying 100 copies of that card, don't.


To address your counterarguments for 3, 4, and 5:
Magic is a collectible trading card game - the validity of cards carrying their current value is because they are highly playable and players know that they will retain their collectible aspect as well (unless point 1 is breached, which goes back to the issue of trust).

Obviously irrelevant/untrue because value has nothing to do with a card's placement on the reserved list, and plenty of valuable cards have been reprinted, lost value, and the sky didn't fall.


To play competitively, as said many times by myself and other posters, you have to invest the money. Saying that Zoo, Goblins, Belcher, Dredge and Merfolk are not competitive or "fun" is an understatement. Such decks cost less than $600 and consistently Top 8 at SCG Opens. Not all T1 decks cost $1500, get over it.

To play competitively you have to invest the money it takes to play competitively. This is begging the question. But why should that amount be a thousand dollars and up? $600 can't even get you a playset of Forces and Wastelands anymore, btw.


What you are trying to say is that "players should be able to play anything they want competitively for shots at winning $2000 with little to no investments". I disagree. For reasons, see my previous posts.

No, I think that players should be able to have reasonable access. There's only 2-3 decks, which are difficult to play and glass cannons, which cost less than $1000- and those often not much less than $1000- then there's a problem.

Any line in the sand is arbitrary, but I think that there should be a wide variety of decks in the format that are competitive and cost in the range of $3-500. That would make the format fairly accessible to a wide number of players and keep new blood incoming, and the format healthy.

[SpikeyMikey]

Collectors have just as much right to collect the cards as players do to play them. Some people do view their collections as investments. Simply dismissing them and saying "fuck 'em" is quite selfish and immature.

I have the same answer to this as I have to an earlier post in the same vein asking why their mode of enjoying the game is less valid than mine.

Let's say for a moment that I like killing fish. So I go out to the river and start dropping sticks of dynamite into the water. This naturally pisses off the people fishing on the shore, since whatever fish I didn't kill, I scared off. "Hey," I say, "if you want to shell out for a boat and a fish finder, you can travel elsewhere on the river and find places to fish. If you aren't willing to spend the money, then obviously fishing isn't that important to you." They view the river as their recreation area, so do I. Simply dismissing me and saying "fuck me" is quite selfish and immature.


And given the number of people in this thread claiming economics degrees, there is a serious failure to understand what is in the interest of the secondary retailers. Maybe Ben Bleiwess can pop into this thread and reiterate that SCG wanted reprints on duals. Because they're a business and they're making their money whether the price of cards rises or falls. Dual prices being as high as they are aren't making SCG's profits better. Yes, the margins are higher, but the turns are lower. Spyker or Maserati makes a much higher margin on every car they produce, Ford dwarfs their annual net. And they're not going to lose money riding the cards down because while the duals work their way down from $100 to $15, they're flipping them daily. So they make a smaller profit on each card, but it's unlikely that they're losing any money unless the value of the cards goes into a complete free fall and they can't turn their inventory fast enough to stay ahead of it. Now the people that view these cards as a savings account, they'll lose money. Because they're holding the same card, they'll feel the full drop from $100 to $15. But who the fuck cares about them anyway? They do nothing for the game except ruin it for other people. They're de facto griefers.

[Uly Van Hammer]

Yall be postin in troll thread.

[keys]

I have the same answer to this as I have to an earlier post in the same vein asking why their mode of enjoying the game is less valid than mine.

Let's say for a moment that I like killing fish. So I go out to the river and start dropping sticks of dynamite into the water. This naturally pisses off the people fishing on the shore, since whatever fish I didn't kill, I scared off. "Hey," I say, "if you want to shell out for a boat and a fish finder, you can travel elsewhere on the river and find places to fish. If you aren't willing to spend the money, then obviously fishing isn't that important to you." They view the river as their recreation area, so do I. Simply dismissing me and saying "fuck me" is quite selfish and immature.


And given the number of people in this thread claiming economics degrees, there is a serious failure to understand what is in the interest of the secondary retailers. Maybe Ben Bleiwess can pop into this thread and reiterate that SCG wanted reprints on duals. Because they're a business and they're making their money whether the price of cards rises or falls. Dual prices being as high as they are aren't making SCG's profits better. Yes, the margins are higher, but the turns are lower. Spyker or Maserati makes a much higher margin on every car they produce, Ford dwarfs their annual net. And they're not going to lose money riding the cards down because while the duals work their way down from $100 to $15, they're flipping them daily. So they make a smaller profit on each card, but it's unlikely that they're losing any money unless the value of the cards goes into a complete free fall and they can't turn their inventory fast enough to stay ahead of it. Now the people that view these cards as a savings account, they'll lose money. Because they're holding the same card, they'll feel the full drop from $100 to $15. But who the fuck cares about them anyway? They do nothing for the game except ruin it for other people. They're de facto griefers.

Do you have another retarded analogy or is that it? Collectors don't prevent you from playing the game. Wizards never intended for everyone to have every card printed accessible to them.

Moreover, Ben Bleiwess does not speak for everyone. SCG is bigger and much more efficient at liquidating stock than most bricks and mortar stores. Again with the "Who the fuck cares" mantra? Lots of people care, including Wizards. If you can't empathize, learn to accept it.

[Captain_Morgan]

No, I think that players should be able to have reasonable access. There's only 2-3 decks, which are difficult to play and glass cannons, which cost less than $1000- and those often not much less than $1000- then there's a problem.

Any line in the sand is arbitrary, but I think that there should be a wide variety of decks in the format that are competitive and cost in the range of $3-500. That would make the format fairly accessible to a wide number of players and keep new blood incoming, and the format healthy.

I feel we should also look at the "original intent," and Garfield in an interview some time ago, I believe during '09, whenever we saw large spikes in Standard prices said that the most expensive MtG cards should not be spiking above $20. So I feel that Garfield, having invented the product and his vision has fairly much sustained itself over the years and into other games beats the "appeal to authority" problem beyond just a creator figure. So I mean enough there to see at all levels the pricing is too high.

On the supply side of the equation we know obviously that:

1. Blocks are made for draft and standard and some adjustments are made for the eternals and multiplayer, and other such requisite limitations.

-Block mechanics might not "jive" mechanically with the locus of power for the eternals
-The focus on drafting a set creates another issue in limiting the amount of "fodder" for the eternals

2. Eternals per set only maybe get a nod every so often for singletons

3. New Blocks do not have the edge to shift metagames in Eternals without something approaching the brokeness of say Urza Block

4. Wizards is not willing to print anything on the list

5. Wizards is willing to print material for new formats or make single unique sets like Unglued

So where am I going with all this? Well quite simply that we might need a set per year fixated directly on the eternal format's uniqueness. That means more powerful cards in a single set only playable in the eternals where the per capita focus isn't on draft but rather purely constructed. That is specialization of labor at its finest, but it would also require players to buy more product in eternals to stay competitive but equally it would eliminate the supply issue and stranglehold on specific cards. Furthermore I feel they would need to break the rules on:

1. Mana cost/efficiency
2. Counterspell costs
3. Land destruction in general
4. Artifact costs
5. Mechanics that are deemed "too powerful"
6. The "need" for "flavorful" cards
7. Embrace complexity and "odd shitty cards that may or may not fly"

Thematically it could also get us away from the "main storyline" and able to see more cards fixated on niche stories such as Portal Three Kingdoms or specific time periods like the Brother's War that a full block couldn't go back to. Frankly, a "high level" Greco-Roman set one year, the next year perhaps a Korean themed set, and ect. would allow the eternal formats to grow horizontally by attracting people that might not care about Phyrexians but people that like things such as old Chinese Emperors.

The basic gist being is that if a person can't compete with a peanut and butter sandwich on white bread because it's too expensive, they can compete with a ham and cheese sandwich on a croissant.


Do you have another retarded analogy or is that it? Collectors don't prevent you from playing the game. Wizards never intended for everyone to have every card printed accessible to them.

Moreover, Ben Bleiwess does not speak for everyone. SCG is bigger and much more efficient at liquidating stock than most bricks and mortar stores. Again with the "Who the fuck cares" mantra? Lots of people care, including Wizards. If you can't empathize, learn to accept it.

No, but the original intent was the game to be accessible as possible and Garfield has said that card prices shouldn't top more than $20 ideally. However, we do not live in an ideal world and with limited supply comes higher prices and what not. The issue is that "middle men" will always jack up prices as they have a requirement to make a profit.

However, in any market economy you have a choice between buying the Ferrari or building a sleeper with some cheap mods. However, as we've approached the "Nascar level" of efficiency, the format needs to be more democratized that level of efficiency or bring down the speed of the format to more of a street racing level. Of course you'll have your random Ferrari, but it can still get smoked by a sleeper or a car designed for a different track smoking the Ferrari out of its element such as off roading.

The problem is now that in order to "off road" you have to adapt to some niche strategy, create some glass canon, wait for an "oopsie" from Wizards to build some new tier 1 deck, or a sharp price decline. While I would not be surprised given the size of the card pool there aren't more one turn kill decks waiting in the mists, but for the most part the enablers are still all the same and the current philosophy in new block construction is not exactly the most conducive towards adding large swaths of cards to the Eternal formats tier 1 level.

[nwong]

Collectors don't prevent you from playing the game. Wizards never intended for everyone to have every card printed accessible to them.


Firstly, collectors are indirectly preventing people from playing the game. By sitting on the cards they own, they're reducing the available supply of cards. Then there's the reserve list. The fact that collectors as a group exist binds Wizards to never reprint that list of cards. So while I do acknowledge that collectors have every right to collect as they please, excuse me while I ignore their opinions when discussing card availability.

Magic is first an foremost a game. Cards have value because of players find them to be useful. This, I believe, justifies the fact that players should have a bigger say in this issue than collectors (who are the root of the problem in the first place).

In short, the "fuck them collectors" way of thinking is valid when we're discussing card availability. They have every right to collect as they please. But they should understand that their interests should hold less weight than the players simply because it's the players that keep the game alive and give their cards value.

As for your second sentence, that's simply ludicrous. You're telling me that Wizards prints some cards that they don't want people to have and play with? The whole point of designing a card and printing it is so people will play with said card. People can't play with said card if it's not available to them.

[perm]

They don't have a right to have their collections subsidized by Wizards refusing to pursue its own economic interests and the interests of the large majority of players by maintaining accessibility to widely played cards.

I agree with this, it's what I have been saying. No dealer or collector is entitled to a certain card pricetag, by anyone, especially wizards who is not involved in the secondary market. They are not entitled to keep wizards from pursuing the interest of the players and the format, which is exactly what reprints would do

[Vaxe]

This is the best proposed reasoning that I've heard all day on the subject - or even all time for that matter.

I fully support the idea of printing sets (with all new cards) dedicated entirely to the eternal format. This will be extremely interesting and at the same time, boaster the popularity of Legacy while not undermine the cost of current staples. Albeit granted that they do not print snow-duals or other functional reprints. :smile:

If Wizards do decide to split the direction of Magic in such a way and to concurrently support both Standard and Legacy, I can only imagine good things happening.



I feel we should also look at the "original intent," and Garfield in an interview some time ago, I believe during '09, whenever we saw large spikes in Standard prices said that the most expensive MtG cards should not be spiking above $20. So I feel that Garfield, having invented the product and his vision has fairly much sustained itself over the years and into other games beats the "appeal to authority" problem beyond just a creator figure. So I mean enough there to see at all levels the pricing is too high.

On the supply side of the equation we know obviously that:

1. Blocks are made for draft and standard and some adjustments are made for the eternals and multiplayer, and other such requisite limitations.

-Block mechanics might not "jive" mechanically with the locus of power for the eternals
-The focus on drafting a set creates another issue in limiting the amount of "fodder" for the eternals

2. Eternals per set only maybe get a nod every so often for singletons

3. New Blocks do not have the edge to shift metagames in Eternals without something approaching the brokeness of say Urza Block

4. Wizards is not willing to print anything on the list

5. Wizards is willing to print material for new formats or make single unique sets like Unglued

So where am I going with all this? Well quite simply that we might need a set per year fixated directly on the eternal format's uniqueness. That means more powerful cards in a single set only playable in the eternals where the per capita focus isn't on draft but rather purely constructed. That is specialization of labor at its finest, but it would also require players to buy more product in eternals to stay competitive but equally it would eliminate the supply issue and stranglehold on specific cards. Furthermore I feel they would need to break the rules on:

1. Mana cost/efficiency
2. Counterspell costs
3. Land destruction in general
4. Artifact costs
5. Mechanics that are deemed "too powerful"
6. The "need" for "flavorful" cards
7. Embrace complexity and "odd shitty cards that may or may not fly"

Thematically it could also get us away from the "main storyline" and able to see more cards fixated on niche stories such as Portal Three Kingdoms or specific time periods like the Brother's War that a full block couldn't go back to. Frankly, a "high level" Greco-Roman set one year, the next year perhaps a Korean themed set, and ect. would allow the eternal formats to grow horizontally by attracting people that might not care about Phyrexians but people that like things such as old Chinese Emperors.

The basic gist being is that if a person can't compete with a peanut and butter sandwich on white bread because it's too expensive, they can compete with a ham and cheese sandwich on a croissant.



No, but the original intent was the game to be accessible as possible and Garfield has said that card prices shouldn't top more than $20 ideally. However, we do not live in an ideal world and with limited supply comes higher prices and what not. The issue is that "middle men" will always jack up prices as they have a requirement to make a profit.

However, in any market economy you have a choice between buying the Ferrari or building a sleeper with some cheap mods. However, as we've approached the "Nascar level" of efficiency, the format needs to be more democratized that level of efficiency or bring down the speed of the format to more of a street racing level. Of course you'll have your random Ferrari, but it can still get smoked by a sleeper or a car designed for a different track smoking the Ferrari out of its element such as off roading.

The problem is now that in order to "off road" you have to adapt to some niche strategy, create some glass canon, wait for an "oopsie" from Wizards to build some new tier 1 deck, or a sharp price decline. While I would not be surprised given the size of the card pool there aren't more one turn kill decks waiting in the mists, but for the most part the enablers are still all the same and the current philosophy in new block construction is not exactly the most conducive towards adding large swaths of cards to the Eternal formats tier 1 level.

[keys]

As for your second sentence, that's simply ludicrous. You're telling me that Wizards prints some cards that they don't want people to have and play with? The whole point of designing a card and printing it is so people will play with said card. People can't play with said card if it's not available to them.

If every card was easily accessible to everyone, then it wouldn't be a collectible card game anymore, would it?

I agree with Captain_Morgan that the best solution is to print new cards with power level that rivals older legacy staples. My personal opinion is that WOTC has done a good job of this with "power creep" while also not letting things get out of control, but it's a difficult line to straddle (case in point-- Vengevine).

[Malchar]

The reason I started playing Legacy was because (theoretically) the format doesn't change often. I can invest a few hundred (at the time, it only cost that much) on a good deck and continue to use it for upwards of five years without making any costly changes. On the contrary, standard costs less to start, but you have to keep paying over time to keep up with the game.

Theoretically, Wizards doesn't really make any money off of Legacy right now. They could start printing "eternal sets" as you suggest, but to me this is just glorified power creep. All of a sudden, I have to start buying fresh product again just to keep up? It seems unlikely that the new cards will be able to coexist with the old cards both being equally valid deck options. Eventually, I'm going to have to buy a bunch of new stuff. Then, Legacy just becomes the same as Standard, except separate. It's like "the other Standard", or something. In both cases, players have to continually buy new product to keep up. At this point, I might as well just play Standard. I'm very surprised that so many people are in favor of this idea. Perhaps the times have changed.

I dislike your argument which says to screw collectors. Who are you to judge whether or not their way of enjoying the game is valid? Your utilitarian approach is severely flawed. What about people who only play in one or two tournaments a year? Should we just take everyone's cards and give them to the single player that participates in the most events? Clearly that would maximize the net enjoyment. Didn't you watch Yu-Gi-Oh!? Part of the strategy is to hoard all of the most powerful cards in the world. This isn't chess. Everyone does not necessarily get access to all the same pieces. There are plenty of other games like that if you would prefer.

Anyway, I actually think that Wizards should break the reserve list. However, I don't think that this would affect prices on the most collectible cards anyway. Did printing revised duals destroy the market for beta duals? In fact they're more collectible in spite of the reprinting. Namely, If the format tanks and people stop playing the game then in fact that would be a sure fire way to destroy any value in the cards (remember Charizard?). The only way to save the format is to reprint valuable cards until their prices drop.

In spite of all this, I voted for the Overextended option because I really don't think that Wizards will break the reserve list. This is particularly because of the rather recent proclamation they sent out in the wake of phyrexian dreadnought's reprint in from the vault relics. They went out of their way to strengthen the reserve list, so it seems unlikely that they would change their minds now.

Due to the high prices, Legacy has just become a neutered version of Vintage. The only real difference now is that Legacy has a bunch of bannings so that the metagame happens to look different from Vintage. We only need one "broken" format, which is vintage. Overextended makes sense because Wizards could always keep the prices low even if it becomes super popular. This would make it function just like legacy back when I started playing it.

The only issue remains power creep, which I think is probably not going to be that bad. Half the problem in legacy is that you have so many old broken cards that you end up with random unforeseen interactions that are extremely powerful. Getting a couple cards every expansion is fine because it keeps the format somewhat fresh while keeping the overall metagame generally stable. You'll have less random swings ruining the format like flash and vengevine + survival in legacy because there aren't so many old broken cards laying dormant.

In conclusion, I think breaking the reserve list would be fine for collectors, great for players, but it will also never happen thanks to Wizards. Overextended seems like the logical progression for like-minded players and myself.

[nwong]

Nobody said collectors can't enjoy collecting stuff. It's when they come out and act like they're entitled to having their collection appreciate in value at the expense of newer players that the "screw the collectors" comes in. And rightly so.

[Captain_Morgan]

Theoretically, Wizards doesn't really make any money off of Legacy right now. They could start printing "eternal sets" as you suggest, but to me this is just glorified power creep. All of a sudden, I have to start buying fresh product again just to keep up? It seems unlikely that the new cards will be able to coexist with the old cards both being equally valid deck options. Eventually, I'm going to have to buy a bunch of new stuff. Then, Legacy just becomes the same as Standard, except separate. It's like "the other Standard", or something. In both cases, players have to continually buy new product to keep up. At this point, I might as well just play Standard. I'm very surprised that so many people are in favor of this idea. Perhaps the times have changed.

1. "The other Standard" wouldn't rotate, rotation kills entire decks. New sets just make new decks and forces others to mildly adapt to new circumstances.

-This is simply what happened in Old Extended when Duals were still legal, the new sets came in and older decks got stronger and some of the newer extended decks were able to upgrade in power and thrived in the format. Today with the speed and efficiency, Extended decks die, and some of the older Extended decks such as specific tribes would be neutered depending on the cut off point for OE.

2. I feel your over exaggerating the general flux versus Standard and an "Eternal with a unique card set." As new cards enter the market, older cards become more valuable because of the interactions.

-Being able to resurrect old deck types or old tribes like soldiers isn't going to hurt the format, because for example what's good for one tribal based strategy is good for another. Similar to relatively cheap side board bane cards like graveyard removal and what not.

3. A larger Tier 1 field would increase the price of other cards in your collection that could be traded off to keep other decks competitive as new staples are released.

4. New cards "powering up in tier" because of interactions with new cards released would reinforce the other side of the "tradeable" aspect of the game. Ironically, if you had an old Standard deck from "back in the day" that has some shards of it that start percolating in price, you can sell off those old staples to buy newer cards.

5. Part of the "playing the game" is deck building, new cards means more fodder to create new decks. If you look at the activity whenever there's a "bone throw" to a new card or someone experiments with something like Zombies there's a lot of interest in the thread. That's a major part of building a community. Having an aristocracy of "museum collectors" doesn't make a game competitive, it makes it stagnant and boring like becoming a curator.

6. Older cards that combine with newer cards to create new decks also allow old sideboard cards to become useful again. Take for example if Allies was pushed to Tier 1, Extinction and Engineered Plague become more useful again. Because of this the foot print because of the massiveness of the card pool is far lower than you expect.

A set akin to Time Spiral in complexity minus all the "necessary draft shit" in a single base set would also encourage older players to come back into the fold. So the more tournaments played, the easier it is to play in an actual tournament. The more players there are the more likely it is to have a play group that plays the format.

And speaking quite to the point, I have a large collection, why shouldn't I be able to use more of it in Legacy on a competitive level?

[sdematt]

@Malchar

Well, true, that's my point: if they reprint duals, the revised ones would go down so long as the new ones were whiteborder as well, or they'd stay a few dollars more. Beta vs. regular, or Japanese Foil versus regular versions for that matter don't really enter into the argument. You're trying to bring the cost down either by deflating the value of the current Revised copies, or bringing out new copies which are significantly cheaper than the original printings (or a bit of both). Either way would fix part of the problem.

I'd be fine if they reprinted WB duals. I'm sure Revised duals would take a hit, but I doubt they'd tank to $1. Plus, pimp versions wouldn't take a hit anyway, since it's not like they'll reprint Beta duals. And even if they did, they're still not the original Beta duals.

-Matt

[Xantid Swarm]

Legacy can became a Pro Tour format. It deserve it: it's very popular, exciting, skill-testing, diverse... But there is simply not enough cards to allow a PTQ season. For now.

For me the solution is:

1. Reprint all the money cards not on the reserve list and needed for more than 1 or 2 decks (Tarmogoyf, Wasteland, Force of Will are three must), in some Eternal-only edition;

2. Print Snow-Covered Duals (as I think it's unrealist to hope for an abolishion of the reserve list);

3. Promote Legacy to Pro Tour status (seasonal PTQ, 3-4 GP a year, 1 Pro Tour, 1 day at Worlds). This didn't sound amazing?

As Extended is now very low in popularity, I'm sure Wizard is thinking about something to take it place. It can be Legacy, if they are ready to reprint needed cards in quantities. If not, I predict some Over-Extended in a few years, and that will suck as this will lead Legacy into Vintage 2.0.

[Pippin]

I feel we should also look at the "original intent," and Garfield in an interview some time ago, I believe during '09, whenever we saw large spikes in Standard prices said that the most expensive MtG cards should not be spiking above $20.

Except that he was commenting about "in print" card, aka Jace and mythic rarity. Cards were above 20$ mark way before that interview, with P9 costing few hundred and thousands.
Also, that interview was made in late 2008, and not during first Legacy spike in early 2009.

Link to the interview - youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gtqv5vYANI&playnext=1&list=PLF6FB78613F0D07A0)

[Bardo]

The reality isn't so simple. Scarcity creates a lot of problems. It drives up prices to a point where they have difficulty coming down, because they cease to be merely cards and start representing financial investments for people. If people are neither selling nor buying those cards sit on the sidelines. Other people drop out of playing, perhaps temporarily, and don't sell out because they want to come back later. Other people that might want to get in aren't able to fork out $12,000 for a deck and so move on to other things. Interest in the format stagnates and then support dries up; from that point, the format becomes nearly impossible to ressurect, since no one wants to pay $1200 or even $800 if prices drop a bit to get into a format with no prize support and no community.

There's no perfectly efficient market for Legacy cards- quite the opposite- and "play tier 2 decks" isn't a solution.

Well said, Jack.

This is an articulate explanation of why I think Legacy is totally fucked over time.

Card scarcity (starting with good land) + People like me (who made their purchases years ago and don't intend to put them into circulation anytime soon) / Growing popularity = Bust.

It's a grim picture and the only way, it seems, to keep the format from going the way of Vintage is to address the supply issue. And that part of the equation will remain static since WotC has unequivocally stated that the Reserve List is here to stay (an idiotic position, but there you go).

I'm an optimistic guy, but it seems Legacy is fated with a slow, miserable death. Like a cancer of the ass. A pity, really, but Legacy is fun and cancer sucks.

On the other hand, it seems like a GREAT time to sell out.

[Aggro_zombies]

On the other hand, it seems like a GREAT time to sell out.
Not really. If you hold on to your cards, the prices might go higher and then you'll get even more money!

[Fsk]

Prices won't go higher for ever. I'm actually think they won't go much higher than what they are right now. People saying 100$ is the right price for FOWs or Wastelands have just lost their commen sense. The cost entry to the format is just too high for most players. The only people who deny this beeing a problem are :
- rich kids born in gold who never had any money issue
- greedy collectors who expect they collection of card to gain value forever
- unskilled players who are relying on money advantage to have an easier time in tournament

Reserved list was made to protect players/collectors investments but it will have the opposite effect in the end. Really the best way to protect value of cards is to assure the perenity of the format they are played in. Of course they may take a hit if you reprint them but as long as legacy is popular they'll have great value. On the other hand if nothing is done they'll retain their value for now but the market for them is going to starve and end up dead. As a result "collectors" will have 100$ cards that nobody want to buy.

The only thing protecting players investment is the health of the format and by hampering it reserved list is actually threatening those investments.

[Lemnear]

Firstly, collectors are indirectly preventing people from playing the game. By sitting on the cards they own, they're reducing the available supply of cards.

This is very interesting. How many playsets of duals/staples do YOU have without playing them, only to have them if a certain tier deck needs them? BearAssassin said HE has LOTS of duals but blames collectors! Maybe you should sell the staples you don't need first?!

Hypocits as far the eye reaches! I'm ready for some shizo-explaination XD

[dragonwisdom]

I have read many posts and threads.

The problem - Wizards of the Coast (WotC) must satisfy 3 groups. Long-time dedicated players, Long-time Collectors and newbies.

My opinion.

1) The reprint list should stand. I know this is unpopular but WotC promised and they should keep their promise. They have a legal obligation. WotC should NOT be making money off collectors and long time players. All players for the most part are collectors. If you play and don't collect, you can just proxy all your cards.

2) reprinting legacy staples in a separate set. This is a terrible idea.

Think about something. Currently, most people spend money cracking packs just to open up A Jace the Mind Sculpter, Tezz, Agent of Bolas, Baneslayer Angel etc.... hoping one day it will be worth something. Do you really want to spend 300-400 dollars on packs that will be worthless later with reprints. The FTV sets make me sick. For example, why would one ever buy boosters , if you can wait and purchase a master's edition or some other set with all the Legacy staples.
Baseball cards are a great example of mismanagement. I used to buy many single packs at the store spending 50-100 dollars. I found out later, the whole set can be had for 40 dollars. WotC makes plenty of money from standard and limited. The collector should be making money from cards that they saved and cracked from packs. WotC should not make a cent from legacy or collectors.

3) solution - Wizards should reprint functional reprints of the duals like a snow a covered tundra, wasteland, force of will, Goyf and frankly every legacy staple including dark ritual and brainstorm.

They should put a "purple symbol" on it. Make it black bordered or borderless and not foil (so you cannot weigh booster packs and not everyone likes foils) and have new art. But here's the TRICK. They should distributed one per box or two boxes instead of a basic land for every set from here on out that they produce. For example some boxes will contain a snow-covered tundra, but most will contain a common brainstorm or uncommon Swords to Plowshares. These purple symbols cards should NOT be legal in standard or limited.

This solution satisfies the promise of NOT violating the reprint policy.
This solution keeps legacy alive by increasing the card pool without flooding the market
This solution stabilizes prices
This solution does not rob collectors of hard earned cards from years of cracking packs
This solution means that WotC makes money indirectly, but fairly by encouraging people to buy booster packs.
This solution rewards players for collecting/playing for a long time. (Remember, the name Legacy implies that you have played a long time)
This solution prevents stores from charging $100.00 for from the vault Relics and the like.
This solution let's newbies get a chance at receiving a Legacy card, from opening booster packs.

Finally, This solution lets players play the best/most creative decks ever seen in MTG history, ie Legacy.


4) Extended and Vintage stink for many reasons I won't discuss here.

But the format only needs 2 constructed formats. Standards and Legacy.

What do other's think of the idea?

I am really open to suggestion and or building on the idea.

[dragonwisdom]

One more thing I forgot to add


There should be a rule in Legacy that you can't have both functional and original reprints in the same list.

For example, that nonsese with Cruel Bargin from Portal and infernal Contract from mirage should not be allowed. It violates/gets around the 4 of policy.

Thus, you could not run Tundra and snowcovered tundra

[nwong]

This is very interesting. How many playsets of duals/staples do YOU have without playing them, only to have them if a certain tier deck needs them? BearAssassin said HE has LOTS of duals but blames collectors! Maybe you should sell the staples you don't need first?!

Hypocits as far the eye reaches! I'm ready for some shizo-explaination XD

Firstly, to answer your question, I don't own anything I don't use. But that's just me.

Secondly, what I meant with that comment was that by sitting on cards they are indirectly driving up the price - not that we should all go out and sell anything we're not using right now (though that would probably help drop the prices a little...).

Maybe I worded it badly or w/e, but I don't mind collectors doing their thing. All I'm saying is their interests should be secondary compared to those of players ie. we drop any argument that begins with "if we reprint prices will crash and collectors will be unhappy etc etc". If the players are happy, the game will flourish, which will benefit the collectors in the long term.

In other words:


Really the best way to protect value of cards is to assure the perenity of the format they are played in.

Hopefully that clears things up.

[Lemnear]

That's fine with me, we're here to discuss that's best for the Format/game. Different positions are there to Be discussed but the threads on this board developed into a "agree with mass-reprints or YOU kill the format, asshole!". That's sad.

My post was misunderstandable, I guess. I don't want to attack you or anyone directly but your post marked an important issue: If only a quarter of any T16 (and that's Not unlikely I know) has ~40 duals around, just for the case if, they multiply the prices even they don't want to. I reduced my 40 German ffb collection to a sets of tropicals, u.seas and tundras because I realize I will never play Zoo and shit anyways. Sure I am a bit pissed that I sold them before Legacy prices exploded but that's life Xp

The snow dual topic is recuring on this board but unlikely to happen. Fork and his new incarnation caused enough trouble for the worth of the reserved list but even if it happens it wouldn't change much to print those in a rare or mythic slot. Standard and the trader would rise their price above 30$ anyway.

The only sane incarnation of duals would be LEGENDARY dual lands. This would keep players with Money Away from buying it and enable others to get "full functional" Duals for a reasonable price. But sadly the crying would continue unless there are original Duals for 5 bucks available -_-

[Whippoorwill]

Legendary Duals would be interesting, but I don't think they'd be good enough. Legendary Tri-Lands could possibly work though.

[perm]

Legendary Duals would be interesting, but I don't think they'd be good enough. Legendary Tri-Lands could possibly work though.

Allied color legendary lands might be not broken if they lacked basic land types.

[TsumiBand]

Legendary duals would also Wasteland the fuck out of each other.

At the risk of the thread descending into "You make the Card 17", would it be accurate to state that more parties would be satisfied with "one-off functional reprints" as a viable option? Obviously not talking about things like shocklands here - the idea is "one-off reprint" not "bad reprint wherein you Bolt yourself to be playing with the same cards as your peers".

[perm]

If a card is a genuinely good substitute for another card, the sellers with an entitlement complex would "suffer" just as much. Dual lands without basic land types? that isn't a good substitute. Fetches are just way too good. If they actually print cards with the exact same competitive power? Then the price of the originals will go down essentially as much if it were an actual reprint.

The problem here, like so many problems in the real world, is that certain parties feel that everyone else owes them something. Wizards, and the rest of the players, owe some people the exact card price that they think they are entitled to, and everyone else bears the cost. What everyone else involved has to say, specifically wizards, and this is a game that boils down to competition/fun/player satisfaction.

[Lemnear]

The (fetchable) Legandary Duals would fix the color problems that seem to be an issue discussed. The fact, that they are not attractive for people with money (Original Duals), the Legendary rule restriction and a predictive, undesirable, common legendary Dual anhilation in Standard, would prevent them form becoming expensive.

This solution is perfectly fine and balanced in terms of strength, reprint policy and monetary value (of both duals). It's one solution this stupid poll don't cover and a step towards broader access to higher tiers. I'm striclty against breaking up the reserved list, because ....seriously .... it only contains Power singletons and Duals. The "ban expensive cards" fraction suffers IMPS ... no doubt about that ... and isn't worth any kind of comment from me (except this).

[Mr.C]

The (fetchable) Legandary Duals would fix the color problems that seem to be an issue discussed. The fact, that they are not attractive for people with money (Original Duals), the Legendary rule restriction and a predictive, undesirable, common legendary Dual anhilation in Standard, would prevent them form becoming expensive.

This solution is perfectly fine and balanced in terms of strength, reprint policy and monetary value (of both duals). It's one solution this stupid poll don't cover and a step towards broader access to higher tiers. I'm striclty against breaking up the reserved list, because ....seriously .... it only contains Power singletons and Duals. The "ban expensive cards" fraction suffers IMPS ... no doubt about that ... and isn't worth any kind of comment from me (except this).

Like I said, from what I heard, collectors were mostly concerned about FtV: Super Expensive cards (think P9, Juzam, LoA, Bazaar).

So the best solution is to keep it as non-reprinted rares in any language from Beta, Arabian, Antiquities and Starter. I wish Wizards would compromise instead of fucking the players who support the game.

[Gui]

Legendary duals/trios are just as bad ideas as any tapland/painlands/shocklands there is. TBH, I preffer shocklands than legendary lands.
Fetchable Legendary lands not only has the drawback of yourself having to handle using only one per game, but also someone running them would be able to wasteland your land with a fetchland. Terrible drawback.

These lands need to have a really really small drawback, one that replaces Dual Lands 95% of the time, and for the remaining 5% you still can run 1 Dual with tons of fetchlands.

And of course, once something like that appears, then people will realize that there is more Dual Lands being held due to the "cozy protection" of the Reserve list, prices will go down and people holding Duals to cash out will be doomed, and I'll laugh an evil laugher xD

[Captain_Morgan]

One more thing I forgot to add


There should be a rule in Legacy that you can't have both functional and original reprints in the same list.

For example, that nonsese with Cruel Bargin from Portal and infernal Contract from mirage should not be allowed. It violates/gets around the 4 of policy.

Thus, you could not run Tundra and snowcovered tundra

A few new "super types" could work, such as:

1. Highlander cards that are only one per deck, this could help to perhaps balance Vintage
2. "Inability to co-exist with X card in Y deck"

-If you have any copy of X in your deck, you lose the game.

But overall considering that FoW, Wasteland and Goyf can be reprinted in a "base eternal" set that follows Magic 2011 reprinting policy of being 50% old and 50% new stuff would keep in new cycles of cards. Then introducing new more aggressive land variants that they won't reproduce again in "normal sets" would alleviate the Dual lands issue longer term. This would equally allow for older cards to accrue in value as well with a focus on older mechanics, creature types, and themes. So instead of waiting for like 7 years for new Infect creatures, that cycle could be reduced to roughly 2-3 years.

The other factor is the ability to "Eternal Evergreen" certain concepts that would never be passable in subordinate Magic like what we saw with Time Spiral. So while we see a "non-LED Dredge" for instance, having a wider variety of decks to a much larger degree enables more variety in fields such as combo, tribal, and ect.

[Vaxe]

Those of you bashing the reserve list and claiming that Legacy will die need to take a moment to think: who the fuck do you think you are? Do you honesty think your complaining will affect Wizards, Hasbro, and all of their stockholders?

Legacy died by 2005 and it was SCG and their 5k Opens that brought the format to its current form. This is fact. Wizards followed with a couple of PTs (San Diego in 2010 for one) - and has been stagnant for the most part since.

The bulk of the money comes from Standard and Limited. This is another fact.
The Legacy structure is currently supported entirely by SCG, and frankly, Wizards does not give a shit about people not being able to enter the format - because they will just move to or stay in Standard, and buy more packs.

Wizards will never violate the reserve list, because as a company with integrity and INTELLIGENCE, they will not violate the trust they have built just so some poor ass kid chewing bubblegum can afford to play a format that's supported by a third party.

If you haven't realized, FTV was meant for collectors, hence the short supply. They could've used the opportunity and mass produced the sets, made more money, and allowed more people to acquire Mox Diamonds, SDT, Aether Vial, Berserk, Goblin Lackey, etc etc -- but again, they don't give a shit about making money at the cost of unbalancing the secondary market.
The average demographic with a limited amount of disposable income would simply spend that money on another MTG product.

The secondary market is as integral to the continued success of MTG as card design and tournaments. If you are 15 years old or am someone with a AA degree in car mechanics, then you probably can't see the logic behind this.
No "gold collectors set" or anything retarded like Yu-Gi-Oh will ever be mass produced as a MTG product. Releasing cards in such a way undermines the collectible aspect of MTG, which translates to cards not having a monetary value, asides from tournament playability. This will lead to a collapse because contrary to your belief, collectors and investment values do play a key role in moving packs.

If you insists that mass reprinting shit is the way to go, refer back to all the other CCGs that initially thrived and inevitably failed: Dual Masters, Pokemon, YuGiOh, VS System, World of Warcraft, EPIC, to name a few. Because they were greedy and reprinted $$$ cards, hoping that they will rake in the dough in the short run.

Business is all about creating and sustaining value in objects that otherwise would have none. The popularity of MTG as a whole will lessen when cards peak at $10, which is what reprinting does (Nantuko Shade/Baneslayer as examples) - or even functional reprints for that matter.
I heard Settlers of Catan and Ascension are great games - but will they ever be as big as MTG? No. Because they have no value.

Talk shit back all you want. I'm the one typing this while wearing a $9900 TAG GC El Primero, donates 20% of my annual income to charity, holds a MBA and a MS, and have a 328i parked outside my garage - all being 25. What have you done with your life?

[sdematt]

People like Bear and I who have 1-2 playsets of duals won't make that much of a difference, but there's people out there with 5-row boxes of duals, just holding onto them. THAT'S the problem.

I let people borrow my duals and all of them are played, so don't worry.

-Matt

[Lemnear]

Legendary duals/trios are just as bad ideas as any tapland/painlands/shocklands there is. TBH, I preffer shocklands than legendary lands.
Fetchable Legendary lands not only has the drawback of yourself having to handle using only one per game, but also someone running them would be able to wasteland your land with a fetchland. Terrible drawback.

These lands need to have a really really small drawback, one that replaces Dual Lands 95% of the time, and for the remaining 5% you still can run 1 Dual with tons of fetchlands.

And of course, once something like that appears, then people will realize that there is more Dual Lands being held due to the "cozy protection" of the Reserve list, prices will go down and people holding Duals to cash out will be doomed, and I'll laugh an evil laugher xD

I guess you miss the point. I tried to create an example-card which allows to to be on par with the original duals, but evades to attract either the owners of original duals or Standard to keep it's price low. The topic was to enable budget-players to battle face to face with the wealthy ones not to create a 1:1 budget REPLACEMENT.

But you want a 95% replacement like "CIP: deals 1 damage to you if you have 30 or more life". Such near irrelevant 5% "drawback" will cause this to BE a replacement for the Original Duals in ... yeah ... 95% of the cases in every format. Expecting the demand (Standard) this card would instantly be a 35€+ and rising.

This does not really adress the topic that the Legacy manabase is expensive and unaccessible, does it?




People like Bear and I who have 1-2 playsets of duals won't make that much of a difference, but there's people out there with 5-row boxes of duals, just holding onto them. THAT'S the problem.

I let people borrow my duals and all of them are played, so don't worry.

-Matt

Matt, there are much more players than collectors out there and if everyone keeps his 1-2 playsets of duals (that are 40-80 pieces! Enough to support more than 10 decks! Imagine!), that's much worse than collectors can harm the market. Having PSA rated Betas or gathering whole Sets is typical for collectors (look at the bragging threads here and at TMD) not buying every cheap dual they get for great payouts. You confuse Collectors with traders ;D

[Gui]

I guess you miss the point. I tried to create an example-card which allows to to be on par with the original duals, but evades to attract either the owners of original duals or Standard to keep it's price low. The topic was to enable budget-players to battle face to face with the wealthy ones not to create a 1:1 budget REPLACEMENT.

But you want a 95% replacement like "CIP: deals 1 damage to you if you have 30 or more life". Such near irrelevant 5% "drawback" will cause this to BE a replacement for the Original Duals in ... yeah ... 95% of the cases in every format. Expecting the demand (Standard) this card would instantly be a 35€+ and rising.

This does not really adress the topic that the Legacy manabase is expensive and unaccessible, does it?

It does, because once it rotates T2, its price will fall and we will buy them all... It will take time, but is better than the option, so far. And well, even by showing off, it will drop Old Duals prices already, or at least stabilize.

Almost every land that is playable in Legacy is highly playable in Standard.

[4eak]

Talk shit back all you want. I'm the one typing this while wearing a $9900 TAG GC El Primero, donates 20% of my annual income to charity, holds a MBA and a MS, and have a 328i parked outside my garage - all being 25. What have you done with your life?

You must be right. How can one possibly argue with that? [Go back to MTGSalvation]

IBA and others have made a pretty strong case in stating the problem and ways of fixing it; I fear that what should happen to solve the problem is not what will happen.



peace,
4eak

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Those of you bashing the reserve list and claiming that Legacy will die need to take a moment to think: who the fuck do you think you are? Do you honesty think your complaining will affect Wizards, Hasbro, and all of their stockholders?

1) We're customers.

2) Yes. At least I think it's possible. Wizards, like most successful companies, has a long track record of clearly responding to customers' complaints. In fact, this was the entire origin of the Reserve list. So your complaint here makes no sense at

[Sims]

Talk shit back all you want. I'm the one typing this while wearing a $9900 TAG GC El Primero, donates 20% of my annual income to charity, holds a MBA and a MS, and have a 328i parked outside my garage - all being 25. What have you done with your life?

328i? Man, why the hell would you drive that piece of shit?

[trivial_matters]

Legacy died by 2005 and it was SCG and their 5k Opens that brought the format to its current form. This is fact.

...

The Legacy structure is currently supported entirely by SCG, and frankly, Wizards does not give a shit about people not being able to enter the format - because they will just move to or stay in Standard, and buy more packs.


You know, there are other venues organizing Legacy tournaments. Like, in the rest of the WORLD. Legacy is not only played in North America.

Resorting to personal insults makes me forget some of the stuff you wrote which made sense. As a car mechanic, I particularly take offense.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I would like to know why mods deleted most of my post responding to Vaxe.

[Gheizen64]

It wasn't worth answering it in the first place, let it go.

[Zach Tartell]

Maybe all that noise was not intended as a factual statement.

[Lemnear]

Probably because s/he's a new member to the forum and s/he wasn't ready for the internet smackdown that was to be.

I have noticed that a lot of posts defending the reserve list are coming from newly registered members. It's almost as if they have been lurking around the shadows, clutching their precious collections, and then all of this reserve list debate comes about and suddenly they appear to praise Hasbro and their integrity. Take your unused cards back to wherever you dwell and let the rest of us play Legacy.

PS: This post was written whilst wearing a $12,000 suit, not including the shoes because I'm not wearing them. Serio.

... maybe some people don't need hundreds of posts "experience" to identify bullshit xp

there's a topic on the board that others view TheSource as a place for shitposts .... maybe you shouldn't give so much credit for the postcount

[Bardo]

1) The reprint list should stand. I know this is unpopular but WotC promised and they should keep their promise. They have a legal obligation. WotC should NOT be making money off collectors and long time players. All players for the most part are collectors. If you play and don't collect, you can just proxy all your cards.

This is one of those claims I feel obliged to debunk whenever I see it. WotC has no legal obligation to maintain the Reserve List. There is no breach of contract because there is no contract.* They made a promise a long time ago, but breaking a promise isn’t illegal. Besides that, corporations breach contracts every day knowing the consequences. It’s not the end of the world.

At worst, and this would be a difficult and expensive to get into a courtroom, you could accuse WotC of fraud. But Hasbro has deep pockets, a huge phalanx of lawyers, and unless it was a class action, you’d get crushed. It would be amusing though.

It’s like a politician who goes back on a campaign promise. You don’t get to sue them and say “I would have voted for the other guy” or “You owe me that recreation center.” You got suckered, sure, and you have the right to vote for someone else next time, but you’re not entitled to anything. Same thing goes for the Reserve List. Their real liability there would be consumer trust and confidence. That’s what’s keeping it in place, not the law or a contract.

* To clarify, all contracts are promises, but few promises are contracts. (As that old saying goes: "All blueberries are blue berries, but not all blue berries are blueberries.")

[Mr.C]

Talk shit back all you want. I'm the one typing this while wearing a $9900 TAG GC El Primero, donates 20% of my annual income to charity, holds a MBA and a MS, and have a 328i parked outside my garage - all being 25. What have you done with your life?

Man, you had me up till the 328i. If I was ballin' out of control like you, I'd at least drive a Maserati, or if I have to go BMW, an M5.

I have everything that's Legacy-legal, or nearly so. I just don't feel that cards should cost more than $50 or so, unless they are collectibles like Juzam and Beta Moxen and shit like that. Likewise, I hate mythic rares too.

But hey, that's just me, right? Some poor Brazilian guy. Or maybe not ;)

[keys]

Bardo, I'm not an attorney, but I'm pretty sure Wizards' "promise" with regard to the reserved list is more of a warranty than a contract. The sale is the contract.

[SMR0079]

From what I heard from GP Dallas is prices are already plateauing, and unless you need the card for an event, you generally can buy the cards at offical buy prices from players and back pack dealers.

The buy prices listed on SCG and other large vendors are seldom ever paid out becasue they are for MINT cards - good luck with finding very many even NM Legacy staples, most are in the EX range. There is a significant difference between what is listed as the offical buy price and what they actually offer. The actuall price for most slighlty played cards is fairly close to what many of you have come to accept as a reasonable cost.

[Malchar]

Sorry if this has been covered already. Here are two main problems related to the rising prices of cards. There is increased incentive to make fake cards. I'm confident that modern cards are quite hard to counterfeit, but I'm not so sure about older cards. I'm not aware of any large scale problems, but I think that eventually someone might figure out how to make high quality fakes, and it could destroy the market or at least make someone really rich.

Secondly, staple magic cards are basically $50 bills now. Playing in a tournament is akin to taking a big pile of $50 bills and slapping them on the table across from someone that you might not know very well. We're reaching a point where it might be uncomfortable to play against an opponent in a high-stakes tournament where both people effectively have large amounts of money on them. I've heard many stories of people having their stuff stolen, and the risk of losing everything will eventually outweigh the benefit from playing with the cards. I'm sure that most people have a pretty good community that they play with, but this could be another barrier for new players to overcome.

[dragonwisdom]

Another way WotC could go is to strengthen mono colored decks. For example, they could print a new goblin that would put goblins back in teir one. They could promote legacy soldiers etc...

They must reprint Force, Goyf and Wasteland. I still think distributing them in packs with a purple symbol, making them illegal in standard is the way to go.

[TUMBLES]

Pfft, they should just support Legacy and Limited, drop those terrible formats Ext and Standard, and do some restructuring to profit heavily from it.

Also, $1500 average deck costs is wrong. If you're running blue, you will probably hit slightly over $1k - but decks like Goblins and Merfolk are $500 or so even if you don't own a single card. Elves and Affinity are pretty cheap also. Combo is pretty inexpensive as well, as is Zoo.

I do not see a real problem - you do not have to shell out huge $$ to play competitive decks in Legacy. There are expensive options, but even things like 4x Fire & Lightning burn is a playable choice.

[cosme]

Talk shit back all you want. I'm the one typing this while wearing a $9900 TAG GC El Primero, donates 20% of my annual income to charity, holds a MBA and a MS, and have a 328i parked outside my garage - all being 25. What have you done with your life?

well now I'm really going to talk shit back at you

a) Donations to charity are unethical if you ever take a break of making so much money I recommend that you read Kant if you disagree.

b) i have done much with my life what have you? (no having lots of money is not making something of your life)


Those of you bashing the reserve list and claiming that Legacy will die need to take a moment to think: who the fuck do you think you are? Do you honesty think your complaining will affect Wizards, Hasbro, and all of their stockholders??

I am a customer that's what I fucking am.

And I while I think that the prices are insane I am happy to test a deck full of proxy until I have enough money to buy it. what I am not happy with is that the prices are constantly coming up and eventually the stocks will end.

And no I don't own any dual nor FoW nor Wasteland so you can all say I'm whining about it

Next step FtV lands :laugh:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Pfft, they should just support Legacy and Limited, drop those terrible formats Ext and Standard, and do some restructuring to profit heavily from it.

Also, $1500 average deck costs is wrong. If you're running blue, you will probably hit slightly over $1k - but decks like Goblins and Merfolk are $500 or so even if you don't own a single card. Elves and Affinity are pretty cheap also. Combo is pretty inexpensive as well, as is Zoo.

I do not see a real problem - you do not have to shell out huge $$ to play competitive decks in Legacy. There are expensive options, but even things like 4x Fire & Lightning burn is a playable choice.

Alex Bertoncini's Merfolk list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37134) costs: $855.97

Pat Cox's Zoo list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37566) costs: $1,135.96

Iain Bartholomai's Goblin's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36247) costs: $926.27

Liam Kane's TES list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37490) costs: $808.08

Given that this is the stuff without blue or Tabernacles/Mox Diamonds/Candelabras etc., $1500 average deck cost sounds about right.

Actually viable decks for under $500 seem to be Elves, Ichorid and Affinity. And they're all glass cannons.

[lorddotm]

Alex Bertoncini's Merfolk list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37134) costs: $855.97

Pat Cox's Zoo list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37566) costs: $1,135.96

Iain Bartholomai's Goblin's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36247) costs: $926.27

Liam Kane's TES list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37490) costs: $808.08

Given that this is the stuff without blue or Tabernacles/Mox Diamonds/Candelabras etc., $1500 average deck cost sounds about right.

Actually viable decks for under $500 seem to be Elves, Ichorid and Affinity. And they're all glass cannons.

I only paid 200 for it. Boss status.

[Koby]

I only paid 200 for it. Boss status.

Still stealing candies from babies, eh Liam? You have to factor in the foil espanolio cartes

[Bardo]

Bardo, I'm not an attorney, but I'm pretty sure Wizards' "promise" with regard to the reserved list is more of a warranty than a contract. The sale is the contract.

I'm not an lawyer either (though I write and negotiate contracts for a living), but the Reserved List isn't a warranty. I tried finding WotC's MTG paper-based product warranties but it's kind of a pain to find them on the internet.

Their online product T&Cs are here:
http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1358/~/magic-online-terms-of-service

And I bet they're more or less similar to their paper products.

There's this:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:yVpF0aiaYmgJ:www.wizards.com/company/downloads/Sales_account_application.pdf+product+warranty&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESixBhga0NtCBPqhAtzYQC0AXmpQ02aEwW576IbaazRcmuuIbdPIESU-9SAVHkeDRxFs6-g1NVboV5zqH-NB2eGlqn21VW1ApdWxCNynI12qwZm43zXjSAqNzNPanagmAunHlmWI&sig=AHIEtbQbgHWubKu9aFbAz17sJuD2NMS5qA

But that's to sell their stuff.

Regardless though, if you found their product warranties, it will mostly disclaim all warranties to the bare minimum applicable by law (minimally, and I'm just guessing here, the technical specifications for their product, mingled with some state's version of the uniform commercial code -- probably Washington (because of WotC) or Rhode Island (because of Hasbro)). http://www.clue.com/legal/hasbro/appeal.htm

What this means, practically, is that if you received a pack of their paper product and there was some manufacturing flaw, like the cards were all fucked up (inking, cutting, you open a booster of Future Sight and there are Redemption cards inside, etc.), the manufacturer (WotC / Hasbro) would replace your non-conforming product at no cost to you. Of course, you wouldn't do that, because those cards would be especially collectible and valuable because of their rarity (misprints / miscuts), but they'd replace them for you if you wanted them too.

Randomly, that's some money there:
http://contracts.corporate.findlaw.com/compensation/employment/1988.html

($500K / year in salary + $250K for signing + $250K (minimum) in bonuses + stock, benefits, and a bunch of other stuff)

[lorddotm]

Still stealing candies from babies, eh Liam? You have to factor in the foil espanolio cartes

Well, now the deck is worth a lot more than 890.

The original didn't have foils in it, that one I got for 200. Winning tournaments with Merfolk to fuel the combo addiction.

[TUMBLES]

Alex Bertoncini's Merfolk list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37134) costs: $855.97

Pat Cox's Zoo list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37566) costs: $1,135.96

Iain Bartholomai's Goblin's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36247) costs: $926.27

Liam Kane's TES list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37490) costs: $808.08

Given that this is the stuff without blue or Tabernacles/Mox Diamonds/Candelabras etc., $1500 average deck cost sounds about right.

Actually viable decks for under $500 seem to be Elves, Ichorid and Affinity. And they're all glass cannons.

I just recently bought complete TES for $550, curious as to where are you getting these prices?

Merfolk I calc'd out recently as well, would cost me ~380 only owning FOWs already; though Wasteland was cheaper even a few weeks ago. Are you just going by SCG or something? They all seem high to me. Plus, even with those #s, seems odd to list a bunch of decks that are significantly below $1500 even at what seem to be high prices and then say $1500 average sounds right.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Already owning a set of Force of Wills tends to reduce the cost of a deck significantly.

And yes, lowest SCG prices, which is about what someone who's just getting into the format can expect to spend (keep in mind that in several cases, those are prices on cards that SCG is sold out of. It's possible to get a better deal through trading or having connections, but the former is very time-consuming and the latter is largely luck-based.

And those are the cheapest decks. Even that Zoo list runs less duals and Knights than normal, and most lists also run Karakas and or Maze of Ith.

For comparison, Ben Weinburg's Counter-top list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36628) costs $1,819.45

The Anwar-Hatfields build of Permanent Waves (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37565) costs $1713.04

Alexander Kwan's Imperial Painter (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37482) list costs $1383.33.

Dan Signorini's Team America (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36854) costs a whopping $2024.89.

Even if we lowball the Tezzeret-Affinity list Blake McCracken played at $200 for the playset of Tezzerets + other junks, that's still an average deck cost of $1,387.10 for the past seven SCG Open winners. Drop the lowest and highest outliers and it's $1,496.96. If describing Legacy as having $1,500 average deck costs is an exaggeration, it's not much of one, at least if we're talking about what's viable in a large tournament.

[JACO]

Alex Bertoncini's Merfolk list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37134) costs: $855.97

Pat Cox's Zoo list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37566) costs: $1,135.96

Iain Bartholomai's Goblin's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36247) costs: $926.27

Liam Kane's TES list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37490) costs: $808.08

Given that this is the stuff without blue or Tabernacles/Mox Diamonds/Candelabras etc., $1500 average deck cost sounds about right.

Actually viable decks for under $500 seem to be Elves, Ichorid and Affinity. And they're all glass cannons.Are you using StarCity's prices for those numbers, or what exactly? I'm updating a spreadsheet now that I used to use to track deck costs in paper and MTGO, and I'll try to put it up online in the next couple of days when I'm done. I'm using street prices for cards, as I strongly encourage people to shop around for competitive prices and not use one big vendor like SCG and wildy overpay. Some numbers I've calculated so far (examples using recent SCG and large global tournament T8'ing decks):
ANT (UB no Grim Tutor) - 851.05 (698.30 MTGO)
ANT (UB with Grim Tutor) - 1169.05 (705.55 MTGO)
Cephalid Breakfast - 1079.75 (755.54 MTGO)
CounterTop Thopters (Guibault) - 1050.73 (946.08 MTGO)
CounterTop UWRG (Wienburg) - 1519.83 (1128.04 MTGO)
Dredge (LED-less) - 156.85 (146.17 MTGO)
Goblins (Mono R) - 626.32 (269.66 MTGO; no Rishadan Port online)
Goblins (RB) - 742.80 (287.61 MTGO; no Rishadan Port online)
Merfolk (Mono U Bertoncini) - 754.63 (777.46 MTGO)
Naya Zoo - 822.53 (425.39 MTGO)
Reanimator (LDV) - 1077.04 (972.66 MTGO)
Team America (Confidant) - 1928.00 (1381.35 MTGO)
Team America (Tombstalker) - 1652.26 (1185.86 MTGO)
TES - 679.25 (665.88 MTGO)

Decks are really not that expensive when compared to the costs of playing Standard, and Legacy deck costs aren't really close to an average of $1500 for the most commonly played decks. Sure Blue decks are more expensive in Legacy, just like they have been in nearly every constructed Magic format. That's nothing new.

If you're looking for equality for the masses for everyone, you should be looking at a different game. Magic has always been a collectible card game, and one where the cost to play constructed formats is high. Standard, Extended, Legacy, and Vintage will never be the "everyman's" format. If you are looking for a cheap format to play EDH and draft fit the bill, and that's why so many players gravitate towards those formats.

[Lemnear]

A list with FoW, 9 Blue duals, 10 fetches and 2 wallet sculptor is 1.8k and you try to tell us the average cost of a legacy Deck is 1.5k?

Then the painter and high tide List ... It isn't the deck that's expensive, it's the playset of candelabras and ImperialR.! I mean you can replace candelabra with cloud of fairies or mind over matter without making the deck much worse but paying 1.1k more for a little better effect should not be the base of discussion.

Maybe I throw a Mono Black List with sinkholes, juzams, Xiahou Duns and chains of Mephistopheles together (maybe win a 12-people-tourney before discussion, for legitim. lol) to discuss average legacy deck prices next time. Feel free to join me with a mono white Control list containing sets of moat, tabernacle, baneslayer and karakas'

(old, formaly cheap but now overhyped and ridiculous expensive cards are bad examples for price discussion. We are Not longer talking about important staples like Force of will but shit; this is wrong)

[nwong]

It's not like he picked the most expensive cards in the format and mashed them into decks to bias his numbers. He simply took the previous tournament winners and calculated the deck price. Which, assuming the card prices were right, is a good way to do it since budgets decks and tier 2+ decks that never win anything shouldn't really be counted.

It's the same as repeating the "you can compete with X budget deck and it costs only Y" argument. Sure, but when was the last time it came Top 8 in a major tournament?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Are you using StarCity's prices for those numbers, or what exactly? I'm updating a spreadsheet now that I used to use to track deck costs in paper and MTGO, and I'll try to put it up online in the next couple of days when I'm done. I'm using street prices for cards, as I strongly encourage people to shop around for competitive prices and not use one big vendor like SCG and wildy overpay. Some numbers I've calculated so far (examples using recent SCG and large global tournament T8'ing decks):
ANT (UB no Grim Tutor) - 851.05 (698.30 MTGO)
ANT (UB with Grim Tutor) - 1169.05 (705.55 MTGO)
Cephalid Breakfast - 1079.75 (755.54 MTGO)
CounterTop Thopters (Guibault) - 1050.73 (946.08 MTGO)
CounterTop UWRG (Wienburg) - 1519.83 (1128.04 MTGO)
Dredge (LED-less) - 156.85 (146.17 MTGO)
Goblins (Mono R) - 626.32 (269.66 MTGO; no Rishadan Port online)
Goblins (RB) - 742.80 (287.61 MTGO; no Rishadan Port online)
Merfolk (Mono U Bertoncini) - 754.63 (777.46 MTGO)
Naya Zoo - 822.53 (425.39 MTGO)
Reanimator (LDV) - 1077.04 (972.66 MTGO)
Team America (Confidant) - 1928.00 (1381.35 MTGO)
Team America (Tombstalker) - 1652.26 (1185.86 MTGO)
TES - 679.25 (665.88 MTGO)

It's impossible to know what you mean by "street price", or verify that. It is however very difficult for someone just getting into the game to find a deck for significantly less than what they'd have to pay SCG for the same. Most other retailers have, at best, pastiches of the cards you need- even SCG has trouble hanging onto duals and other staples, really- which will require multiple shipping and may not even be of the cheapest editions. SCG moderately played duals are going to usually be cheaper than the lowest cost duals you can pick up elsewhere.

If you mean for people to go on six month scavenger hunts making contacts and finding out where to put together a deck on the cheap, that's an even greater hidden cost. For a new player to try to assemble a deck entirely via trade is daunting enough, but add onto that that if they don't know the prices well they're liable to lose rather than save money on the deal.


Decks are really not that expensive when compared to the costs of playing Standard

...no? I guess if you mean over time, but the cost of entry is far lower in Standard, even in this insanely retarded 4-of-Jace-in-everything metagame.


and Legacy deck costs aren't really close to an average of $1500 for the most commonly played decks.

I just showed that they are. You countered with a list of numbers that as far as I can tell you made up from thin air. Unless you want to share your methodology this is not an even exchange.


Sure Blue decks are more expensive in Legacy, just like they have been in nearly every constructed Magic format. That's nothing new.

What? There's nothing magical about blue cards that makes them cost more. The most expensive cards in Standard/Extended are the ones that are played at any given moment.


If you're looking for equality for the masses for everyone, you should be looking at a different game. Magic has always been a collectible card game, and one where the cost to play constructed formats is high. Standard, Extended, Legacy, and Vintage will never be the "everyman's" format. If you are looking for a cheap format to play EDH and draft fit the bill, and that's why so many players gravitate towards those formats.

Saying that something is so isn't the same as saying that it should be so. Of course Legacy isn't an everyman's format; hence the thread title. The question is why shouldn't it be more accessible.



A list with FoW, 9 Blue duals, 10 fetches and 2 wallet sculptor is 1.8k and you try to tell us the average cost of a legacy Deck is 1.5k?

Then the painter and high tide List ... It isn't the deck that's expensive, it's the playset of candelabras and ImperialR.! I mean you can replace candelabra with cloud of fairies or mind over matter without making the deck much worse but paying 1.1k more for a little better effect should not be the base of discussion.

Maybe I throw a Mono Black List with sinkholes, juzams, Xiahou Duns and chains of Mephistopheles together (maybe win a 12-people-tourney before discussion, for legitim. lol) to discuss average legacy deck prices next time. Feel free to join me with a mono white Control list containing sets of moat, tabernacle, baneslayer and karakas'

(old, formaly cheap but now overhyped and ridiculous expensive cards are bad examples for price discussion. We are Not longer talking about important staples like Force of will but shit; this is wrong)

Are you pretending to be dense as part of a cunning stratagem, or do you really think that using the most recent SCG Open winners as a frame of reference is comparable to you making up decklists out of thin air?

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Pfft, they should just support Legacy and Limited, drop those terrible formats Ext and Standard, and do some restructuring to profit heavily from it.

Also, $1500 average deck costs is wrong. If you're running blue, you will probably hit slightly over $1k - but decks like Goblins and Merfolk are $500 or so even if you don't own a single card. Elves and Affinity are pretty cheap also. Combo is pretty inexpensive as well, as is Zoo.

I do not see a real problem - you do not have to shell out huge $$ to play competitive decks in Legacy. There are expensive options, but even things like 4x Fire & Lightning burn is a playable choice.

Mono-Red Goblins is at about $750 to make now on average.

[Pippin]

Mono-Red Goblins is at about $750 to make now on average.

Which is still 2 times less than $1500 average figure being thrown around.

Anyway, nobody is commenting on recent turns of events? Or are people just slow at catching up?

TnT is no longer buying Wastelands, they also lowered their buy prices for foil versions and for FoW. SCG lowered their Wasteland buy price to $30, and FoW to $50. Both shops have both cards in quite nice quantities in stock.

There are people on motl (some I presume being sourcers) that tried to sell their extra "since the price is so high". No bites, so seems that correction arrived.

[Lemnear]

It's impossible to know what you mean by "street price", or verify that. It is however very difficult for someone just getting into the game to find a deck for significantly less than what they'd have to pay SCG for the same. Most other retailers have, at best, pastiches of the cards you need- even SCG has trouble hanging onto duals and other staples, really- which will require multiple shipping and may not even be of the cheapest editions. SCG moderately played duals are going to usually be cheaper than the lowest cost duals you can pick up elsewhere.

If you mean for people to go on six month scavenger hunts making contacts and finding out where to put together a deck on the cheap, that's an even greater hidden cost. For a new player to try to assemble a deck entirely via trade is daunting enough, but add onto that that if they don't know the prices well they're liable to lose rather than save money on the deal.



...no? I guess if you mean over time, but the cost of entry is far lower in Standard, even in this insanely retarded 4-of-Jace-in-everything metagame.



I just showed that they are. You countered with a list of numbers that as far as I can tell you made up from thin air. Unless you want to share your methodology this is not an even exchange.



What? There's nothing magical about blue cards that makes them cost more. The most expensive cards in Standard/Extended are the ones that are played at any given moment.



Saying that something is so isn't the same as saying that it should be so. Of course Legacy isn't an everyman's format; hence the thread title. The question is why shouldn't it be more accessible.




Are you pretending to be dense as part of a cunning stratagem, or do you really think that using the most recent SCG Open winners as a frame of reference is comparable to you making up decklists out of thin air?

I want you to remind that your main topic was making the formats staples more accessible.

Promoting the price of a 4c countertop with 9 duals and 10 fetches as "slightly" above the average Legacy entrance cost is "thin Air". Moreover you take SCG's prices as the Base for your statements. Rukcus listed prices without big traders between players; only Hand-to-Hand trading which is a normal thing in CCG's. You mentioned something that I reduce to "Time is Money"; an aspect that good trading cost time, which is fine but nothing we can calculate in $ easily. SCG's a bad example, of you follow their price development over the last weeks especially looking at candelabra.

That brings me to the point with the $Black parody. Talking about High Tide, a deck WITHOUT Legacy staple Cards (except FoW) you fight for, with 80% of it's cost covered by a set of collector-cards is not a good example for Legacy entry cost. If I were younger and interested in Legacy and I would read and think: "1.8k, Force of will, no duals other staples?! Wtf?! Fuck that format!" Recruiters the same problem here.

These are imo examples that undermine your intention and head this thread in the Complete wrong direction.

[GGoober]

Thank God.

Also, SCG who was buying SDT at $10 a pop are now stocked with 50++ tops at $14.00. It's going to take awhile to unload those unless they prompt EDH writers/salesmen to boost selling Tops ravenously.

Here's hoping the Wasteland/FoW prices will drop a little. There's only that much the format can sustain at that price point. What I feel is bulk of the price is driven by demands WITHIN the Legacy community or people who are already in or getting into the format, it is not driven by Standard players trying to buy into the format in fear on the future of legacy card prices. No evidence to suggest this, but I think it maybe a logical explanation. Because if it were non-legacy people buying in afraid of rising card prices, there's not going to be much force that will stop prices from yet increasing (gradually).

We've all been puppets played by the secondary market enjoying their temporal profits. I'm interested to see how this works out in the next month (Top is a good example on SCG's stocked list).

Clarification: Average tier decks in Legacy costs around $800-$1k. $1.5k number on this thread is probably typed out to prove the point on rising card prices, and most AVERAGE decks do not cost $1.5k. Only the 3-4 colored decks would cost this much. Legacy is still MUCH more affordable than Vintage, the way Standard is MUCH more affordable than Legacy (even more so now). The only plus that Legacy has over Standard with the current price increases is: Legacy still has the power to retain card value if you ever intend to sell out in the future. You don't have much investment power in Standard.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Amusingly, though, when I started playing Eternal back in ye olde T1.5 days, T1.5 WAS cheaper than Standard. Hell, that's why I got into Eternal in the first place. I wanted to play competitively and I was a kid with no money at the time. Goblin Sligh was a bit cheaper to build than Ravager Affinity.

[Doomsday]

It's the same as repeating the "you can compete with X budget deck and it costs only Y" argument. Sure, but when was the last time it came Top 8 in a major tournament?

No matter which budget deck you're talking about, I think your answer is probably "19 days ago, max" :)

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-03-27&end_date=2011-03-27&event_ID=20

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I want you to remind that your main topic was making the formats staples more accessible.

Promoting the price of a 4c countertop with 9 duals and 10 fetches as "slightly" above the average Legacy entrance cost is "thin Air". Moreover you take SCG's prices as the Base for your statements. Rukcus listed prices without big traders between players; only Hand-to-Hand trading which is a normal thing in CCG's. You mentioned something that I reduce to "Time is Money"; an aspect that good trading cost time, which is fine but nothing we can calculate in $ easily. SCG's a bad example, of you follow their price development over the last weeks especially looking at candelabra.

That brings me to the point with the $Black parody. Talking about High Tide, a deck WITHOUT Legacy staple Cards (except FoW) you fight for, with 80% of it's cost covered by a set of collector-cards is not a good example for Legacy entry cost. If I were younger and interested in Legacy and I would read and think: "1.8k, Force of will, no duals other staples?! Wtf?! Fuck that format!" Recruiters the same problem here.

These are imo examples that undermine your intention and head this thread in the Complete wrong direction.

Your complaint is illegitimate, because whether or not you think it's "fair" to complain about those cards, those are the most recent winning lists. It's absolutely irrelevant to bring up budget decks that can't win.

And offering speculative "street" prices for cards is neither verifiable nor helpful, especially to new players who are more likely to be taken for a ride than anything.

[Captain_Morgan]

Ideally going from cold start to a Tier 1/1.5 deck should be $100. To reach that would require new cards to be printed that can compete with the original power level before the price spike.

Really, what justifies an entry cost to a CCG in excess of $100?

[SMR0079]

In Seattle, the buy prices listed by the major vendors are generally used among players, back pack dealers/traders, and small shops to define the cash value of cards, while the large vendor sell prices often dtermine trade value. Outside of an established community with a large suply of Legacy cards players must resort to buying from large vendors or ebay where the price is subtantially higher.

[Doomsday]

IBA, a beat up Wasteland for $50? It should take about 2 minutes to easily beat that price on eBay. Checking now I see a a bunch of listings for NM Wastes ending in the 6 hours, all for below the SCG price for a beat up copy. Is there anyone who actually buys the majority of their Legacy cards from SCG? I certainly hope not, and think that using their prices is generally a terrible way to come up with the format average.

[GGoober]

I only buy cards from SCG if they're below Ebay, i.e. no cards.

The only exceptions are: casual foils if they're around Ebay prices (Ebay doesn't have these usually since they're obscure), EDH foils (once again, comparing against Ebay), some legacy foils that they underpriced below ebay, e.g.

I picked up:
2 Elspeth foil $27.99
2 SoFI DCI foil $69.99
2 Crucible 5D foils $37.99
3 Standstill foils $31.99
3 Spell Snare foils $16.99

Granted that some of them are still $1-$2 higher than Ebay, I don't have to wait for auctions and snag everything in one payment and one shipping. Other than that, the only items I ever bought from SCG are stuff for my foil UG Thallid deck, foil GAZ (Gro-A-Zombie), Bruizzar's Coretapper Myr shenanigan deck with Magistrate's scepters :D

I cannot see myself ever buying cards without comparing Ebay as a benchmark. SCG has most things, and is convenient, but they're not the market yet. They have an influence on the market, but if there's an entity that should be the market, it's Ebay.

[lorddotm]

SCG doesn't dictate prices.

I disagree with that. If it wasn't for their buylist, Wastelands would still be around 20 dollars. They are a heavy influence on the market.

That being said, they sell their cards at way more than they are worth, and using tools like eBay and MOTL, you can easily get them for less (but still not cheap).

[Draener]

IBA may be a little off in his estimation, but at least he is not resorting to character assassination and tales of how rich he is. Vaxe, do yourself a favor and refrain from all the unnecessary comments and stick to the crux of the issue, IBA's inflation of deck prices. Now while the prices on Star City and Channel fireball might be slightly inflated, I know a lot of the local shops (RIW, Pandemonium, Time Travelers) price their cards to these sites. And about the metagame, price is an influence into what is dominating the metagame. The optimal version of high tide, ANT, and TES all cost significantly more than these vial decks that you describe. If people are trying to get into the format, they will gravitate to the cheaper decks... all of which happen to smash counterbalance. So with counterbalance continually being kept down by the only reasonably priced deck, Mr. Moneybags combo is left with free reign of the metagame. Is that the format that you want?

[Bardo]

Locked for the moment. - Bardo

Update - Open again.

[Bardo]

Verbal warnings to IBA, Vaxe, and Keys for either flaming or flame-baiting.

I've deleted all posts that involve those things above, even if they contained useful and well-reasoned content (cope).

Full warnings will be issued and this thread will be permanently closed if I or another mod has to come into this thread and fiddle with the admin panel.

I shouldn't have to say this, but hell, here goes:

* Research and debate facts

* Ad hominem attacks will not be tolerated

Please review our Intellectual Honesty Guidelines before continuing to post in this thread

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?7455-Site-Rules-for-MTS

Thanks.

[edgarps22]

I actually agree with IBA here. Yes SCG is not the market. But it is one enormous chunk of it. If you discount it, you are ignoring a segment of the market entirely, that is called bad business strategy and is extremely short sighted. The time it takes to get cards form Ebay is sometimes more costly than the extra money SCG charges for the same cards. Also I have never, and I mean never, had a problem ordering from them. I have with Ebay, I have hard cards come late, I have had them not show up at all. The price you pay at SCG is more than just purely the value of the card, sometimes its a little bit more to pay for the security of that order. All in all, SCG and Ebay, as well as places like T&T, should ALL be considered when doing any kind of valuation.

Right now the market is trending up, and it is something a lot of us expect, ie "Legacy staples never go down in value" ( a common argument to buy into legacy). This argument actually means we expect prices to go up, or at least hold value. The problem is that the prices have spiked far further than they should and in the long run, with all prices staying the same or increasing further, the game will die. No the sky is not falling, but given a long enough time line, I give it about 3-4 years, the format will fall if things stay as they are.

The solution is simple, functional reprints that are not identical, like taking the M10/M11 duals and simply adding the basic land types to them. 95% of the time, those would be just as good as the original duals, Standard gets more fun, Extended gets super solid manabases, and Legacy becomes a sustainable format.

The most likely scenario from the original 4, which by the way those are the 4 most REAL options available whether you like that fact or not, is a combination of #2 and #4. #2 would be the simplest because we already have Ravnica duals and they do work just fine, providing nothing better is available. #4 is likely because IT IS WHAT THEY DID WHEN THEY MADE LEGACY. 1.5 used to be based solely off of the 1.0 banned/restricted list and we had decks like Dragon, MUD, ATS, Fish, and Threshold decks. They hacked away at the format, unbanning lots of goodies like LED, Crop Rotation, etc, meanwhile banning cards like Mishra's Workshop, Library of Alexandria, Illusionary Mask, Bazaar of Baghdad, and all the usual offenders, all because the costs and availability. To quote Aaron Forsythe ...

" Worldgorger Dragon, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Drain, and Illusionary Mask all fit into this category. Note, too, that the power level of many of these cards, combined with their scarcity, presented a major barrier to entry to the format for many players."

#4, the option of just hacking away the especially rare and expensive cards, in this case things like Duals and Candelabra, is a very possible scenario, I know this because they did it 7 years ago. Yes that option sucks, yes Shock duals are not as good, but if they are the best you have, why not. Most people did not like the changes between 1.5 and Legacy at first either, we just have to come to our senses and realize either some staples we value high are going to be banned, or they are just going to make a new format, in the long term. This is not going to happen now, but it will happen eventually. obviously Wizards IS concerned with barriers of entry, Aaron Forsythe mentions those words in that quote, what makes you think that dual lands aren't already being looked at? Will it suck, yes, will the format change, yes, will it be worse, that is unknown. Most people though Legacy was going to be terrible, it wasn't, it is by far my favorite format now.

Also for reference:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af30

And lastly, stop flaming each other and stick to the topic, no one cares what degree you claim to have, how much money you spend on whatever, no one cares and is just a waste of time and energy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How much do people realistically think they can save on ebay? The buy it now prices on Wastelands, for an example that's extremely relevant, are about $50+; the lowest I can find in bidding that hasn't ended yet is $41 for a singleton. That's going to also pad the price because you have to pay shipping each time.

But say that you can save 10% on ebay, and you don't have a problem with getting your cards. The average deck price of the past seven SCG open winners is still down to only $1,250 or so, well within the $1,200-1,500 range I identified in the first post. If the average deck isn't $1,500, it certainly will be soon at recent trends.

[evanmartyr]

It's certainly possible that this thread originally had a point, but I've long since forgotten what it was. So. Even if we can agree on some number that the "average" competitive deck would cost currently (say, $1000.00, just for the sake of argument), what does this mean? Other than me looking at that number and thinking that's about what I make in a month, I'm curious as to why we're arguing about this at all. Even if we could agree on some sort of normative statement (a competitive deck's cost should be some function of the minimum wage, or whatever) about Legacy, what can we actually do about it?

It's not like people haven't suggested nearly everything that's been suggested here before. Throwing functional reprints of dual lands into the base sets would be simple, and would guarantee that the difference between "newbies" to the format and the people who have the cash or collections to currently compete wouldn't be so drastic, but we don't have a very effective way of communicating that to WotC. This all seems kind of masturbatory, to me.

[Karhumies]

If the North American readers of The Source are interested in making a cross-cultural analysis, IMO it is fair to make a price comparison between SCG (as a major and reliable US seller) and MCM (as a major and reliable European card market). The biggest fluctuator is the dollar-to-euro exchanger rate, currently at 1.44 dollars for one euro (source: xe.com).

Brief price comparison:

All prices are NM or better, English, full set from single seller (MCM), excluding delivery and foreign import tax (where applicable).

Maze of Ith (The Dark)
SCG 4 x $40 = $160
MCM 4 x 30e = 120e x 1.44 = $173

Lotus Petal (FtV: Exiled)
SCG 4x $12 = $48
MCM 4x 8,35e = 33,4e x 1,44 = $48

Natural Order (Portal, cheapest single because playset not available)
SCG $35
MCM 30e x 1.44 = $43,5

Thoughtseize (Lorwyn)
SCG $15 x 4 = $60
MCM 14e x 4 = 56e x 1.44 = $80,5

Tarmogoyf (Future Sight)
SCG $70 x 4 = $280
MCM 44,50e x 4 = 178e x 1.44 = $257

Knight of the Reliquary (Conflux)
SCG $10 x 4 = $40
MCM 8,5e x 4 = 34e x 1.44 = $49

It seems that with the current exchange rates between euro and US dollar, SCG sell-out prices are roughly on par with the European free market price (trader-to-trader). If the SCG rates were below that, Europeans would be buying a lot from SCG to import into Europe. Which I think has happened in the past to some extent.

From an European point-of-view, US-based eBay sellers have significantly higher overseas shipping costs, combined with being substantially less trustworthy than SCG in premium price card orders. European versions of eBay (UK, Germany, etc.) have similar problems: getting an insured shipment at reasonable prices can sometimes be tough, and some of the individual sellers may even refuse to sell internationally. MCM and SCG are more convenient and reliable alternatives. When you have the purchase power for e.g. a full playset of Tundra, spending a substantially small % of the value of the deal (say, around 5-10% compared e.g. to a "sketchy" auction site seller with little feedback) for safety and reliability seems quite reasonable to me, at least. Therefore, I argue that SCG and MCM are good and reliable sources to base money estimates on for e.g. decklist price analysis.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm not sure why people think Wizards is an unresponsive monolith. They've been fairly responsive to their player base over time. Especially in regards to Eternal formats. Smennen alone's got them to change the banned list a half dozen times as far as I can recall.

[Xantid Swarm]

If the average deck isn't $1,500, it certainly will be soon at recent trends.

This is the real point, I think. The important thing is not to know if the average Legacy deck cost $1000, $1200 or $1500 but the fact that there is not enough cards to allow lot more of players in the format. It's why the prices rise so drasticly. If the popularity of the format continue, we can certanly reach $2000 for an average deck in one or two year. Then what? $3000 around 2015-16? For those of you against reprints, at wich point will you see that there is a problem?

Anyway, I'm sure Wizard see the problem. What I want is make them know that a vast majority of the Legacy players want reprints, even if we own cards, because a large player base is needed to use those cards.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Final note on SCG Open winners; the 8th and 9th last SCG open winners were both Goblins list, which I realize makes cutting it off at 7 seem suspicious, although that number was just because SCG's normal filter cuts it off at about two months. But say we look at the average cost for all 9 past winners; that's:

Jan 9th, Chris Osinki's R/G Goblins (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36117) from Kansas City: $976.43

Jan 16th, Iain Bartholomei's R/B Goblins (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36247) from San Jose: $926.27

Feb, 6th, Ben Weinburg's Urg Countertop (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36628) from Indianapolis: $1,819.45

Feb 27th, Dan Signorini's Team America (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36854) from Washington D.C.: $2024.89

March 6th, Alix Hatfield's Permanent Waves (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37043) from Edison: $1701.04 (due to a substitution of 1 Intuition for a second Mind Over Matter, this is actually slightly cheaper than the other list, which I neglected to cover last time)

March 13th, Alex Bertocini's Merfolk (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37134), from Memphis: $855.97

March 20th, Blake McCracken's Tezzeret Affinity (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37278), from Fort Worth: $382.43

March 27th, Alexander Kwan's Imperial Painter (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37482), from Los Angeles: $1383.33.

April 3rd, Jesse Hatfield's Permanent Waves (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37565), from Atlanta: $1713.04

That's an average cost of $1,309.21. Even if you shave 10% off, that's $1,178.29 average, and prices have seen a heavy uptick even during that same period. And of the four cheapest decks, three are still quite close to a thousand dollars.

I don't think it's debatable that Legacy has gotten very expensive.

[evanmartyr]

I'm not sure why people think Wizards is an unresponsive monolith. They've been fairly responsive to their player base over time. Especially in regards to Eternal formats. Smennen alone's got them to change the banned list a half dozen times as far as I can recall.

Smennen's put forth cogent arguments (not that ours aren't) backed up by hard data (not that ours isn't) that shows a clear and obvious reason why cards should be banned/unbanned. Also, I have a feeling that Wizards really knew nothing about Vintage balance until recently, and looked to this guy for information about a slowly growing, but very very limited, format. Seeing as how about the same time they took his advice, they shook up Legacy but good, I don't think they have the same dearth of knowledge about Legacy as they had(have?) about Vintage.

Also, Smennen's concerns, if I remember correctly, were almost exclusively about balance. He said "Brainstorm is too good", not "The presence of Brainstorm in a format warps the entry cost of the format to the detriment of new players", which is your (and my own) point. It's unfortunate, because I'm pretty sure most people who play Vintage are of the assumption that if you don't have the power 9, workshops, etc, tough. Too bad. Play unpowered Goblins, or Dredge, and hope to gear up through tournament winnings.

Legacy (as far as I understand it) grew out of a desire to have a format wherein nothing rotated, but nothing beyond the most absurdly, individually degenerate cards were banned. So we get to play with crazy quality (Brainstorm) but not things better than crazy quality (Ancestral Recall). When Wizards took ownership of Legacy, they looked at what had developed as a "metagame" and then stripped it of all the shit people had gotten attached to but was obviously stupid and degenerate if you were going to have a truly wide-open format. Bazaar, Workshop (if that was even legal back then, I can't remember), etc. They certainly didn't ban Bazaar of Baghdad for concerns of cost, or they probably would have banned Candelabra as well. It was because Candelabra is good at one thing, and Bazaar enables so many broken, stupid things every time they print a new Squee, or Madness cards, or Dredge, or reanimate target, etc.

My point is, WotC listened to Smennen because he could point to a card and say "That card. That card right there is fundamentally too powerful to play four of in a deck. You gotta restrict it." What we're saying is "Those cards. Those cards are too expensive for new players. You gotta [optionA][optionB][optionC]...[optionXYZ]" This is a much more difficult thing to respond to responsibly, and a much more difficult thing to care about responding to, because it's not like THEY screwed up, they just didn't print enough cards back in 1994 to meet 2011 demand, which has exploded almost entirely beyond reason. This whole reserved list thing is really a rock and a hard place for them.

[PanderAlexander]

March 27th, Alexander Kwan's Imperial Painter (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37482), from Los Angeles: $1383.33.

Nice, so that's how much my deck's worth. I hope for reprints of legacy staples, and I'm saying that as someone who owns all blue duals, wastes, goyfs, etc.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Smennen's put forth cogent arguments (not that ours aren't) backed up by hard data (not that ours isn't) that shows a clear and obvious reason why cards should be banned/unbanned. Also, I have a feeling that Wizards really knew nothing about Vintage balance until recently, and looked to this guy for information about a slowly growing, but very very limited, format. Seeing as how about the same time they took his advice, they shook up Legacy but good, I don't think they have the same dearth of knowledge about Legacy as they had(have?) about Vintage.

Also, Smennen's concerns, if I remember correctly, were almost exclusively about balance. He said "Brainstorm is too good", not "The presence of Brainstorm in a format warps the entry cost of the format to the detriment of new players", which is your (and my own) point. It's unfortunate, because I'm pretty sure most people who play Vintage are of the assumption that if you don't have the power 9, workshops, etc, tough. Too bad. Play unpowered Goblins, or Dredge, and hope to gear up through tournament winnings.

Legacy (as far as I understand it) grew out of a desire to have a format wherein nothing rotated, but nothing beyond the most absurdly, individually degenerate cards were banned. So we get to play with crazy quality (Brainstorm) but not things better than crazy quality (Ancestral Recall). When Wizards took ownership of Legacy, they looked at what had developed as a "metagame" and then stripped it of all the shit people had gotten attached to but was obviously stupid and degenerate if you were going to have a truly wide-open format. Bazaar, Workshop (if that was even legal back then, I can't remember), etc. They certainly didn't ban Bazaar of Baghdad for concerns of cost, or they probably would have banned Candelabra as well. It was because Candelabra is good at one thing, and Bazaar enables so many broken, stupid things every time they print a new Squee, or Madness cards, or Dredge, or reanimate target, etc.

My point is, WotC listened to Smennen because he could point to a card and say "That card. That card right there is fundamentally too powerful to play four of in a deck. You gotta restrict it." What we're saying is "Those cards. Those cards are too expensive for new players. You gotta [optionA][optionB][optionC]...[optionXYZ]" This is a much more difficult thing to respond to responsibly, and a much more difficult thing to care about responding to, because it's not like THEY screwed up, they just didn't print enough cards back in 1994 to meet 2011 demand, which has exploded almost entirely beyond reason. This whole reserved list thing is really a rock and a hard place for them.

Excellent post, but I think that Wizards would find that the rock, in this case, is made out of styrofoam after all. The reserve list isn't a contract; it's a promise. And companies break these kinds of promises all the time. If I get a limited edition McRib sandwich, I can't sue McDonalds when they decide to make it a permanent part of their menu because I feel that ruined the value of my earlier McRib experience, because they broke their promise.

Or take Captain America's death. Joe Qesada swore up and down that the Cap was dead, dead, post-mortem, never coming back. Lo and behold, a couple years later Marvel brought back their most famous character. Shock and horror. Did anyone sue Marvel because they bought comics of that plot run thinking that Captain Marvel was really going to be gone forever? No.

That's all the reserve list is, dressed up in fancier language. "Honest injun, these Candelabras and Citanul Druids are one time only! Get them while they're hot!" So there's ridiculous demand for Candelbras later and they drop the reserve list like it's hot. Who's going to sue them and for what? They're not taking away the Candelabras of people that already own them.

[cdr]

Maybe they wouldn't get sued, but some of the people putting pressure on them to stick to it likely buy a lot of product from WotC and have some pull in that regard. Still doesn't really add up though, and I'd love for someone to blow the lid on WotC's secret reserved-list dealings.

[lorddotm]

Nice, so that's how much my deck's worth. I hope for reprints of legacy staples, and I'm saying that as someone who owns all blue duals, wastes, goyfs, etc.

You've cast Goyf before? You realize he isn't a Fish right?

[sdematt]

I wish they'd give us the details to the Reserved list instead of keeping it hush-hush.

-Matt

[GGoober]

Maybe they wouldn't get sued, but some of the people putting pressure on them to stick to it likely buy a lot of product from WotC and have some pull in that regard. Still doesn't really add up though, and I'd love for someone to blow the lid on WotC's secret reserved-list dealings.

It's a deal behind SCG and WotC O_O

/joke

[edgarps22]

My theory is that the Reserved List issue came not from Wizards itself, but from Hasbro for some internal business ethical code. More often than not, when something major happens to this game, Wizards tells us why they are doing it. In this case they did not, which sounds to me like they were told not to, so it was probably for a reason that is arbitrary in nature, but real enough that the parent company wants keep face in some matter for some unknown reason. It might have been because they could be sued, it could be because that would cost them money even if they won, it could be the potential for loss was FAR greater than the potential revenue from those reprints. We won't know until they tell us, but my guess is it came from beyond Wizards for one reason or another.

[DarthVicious]

The issue, if there indeed is one, is the increasing price of duals. Duals are the only cards on the reserved list that will truly make an impact if reprinted. The rest are gravy.

Wizards has been trying to make viable duals for years. Something like a ten card cycle every block or two. I think they'll nail it pretty soon. If not, well... then they'll keep trying. Demanding that they interact with fetches is being greedy if you ask me, by the way.

Most Legacy staples aren't on the reserve list, and thus can be reprinted anytime. Can't get Candelabra? Tabernacle? Moat? Sorry you didn't jump on the bandwagon, but too bad. Play a different deck. Or donate body parts so you can afford to purchase that one little piece of three-inch painted cardboard.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Just calculated it and saw that my pet deck (the one I keep writing a primer for, linked to in my signature) comes to nearly $1400 MOTL price (overall rather than weekly).:eek:

No wonder nobody else ever wants to play it.

[SpikeyMikey]

Are you using StarCity's prices for those numbers, or what exactly? I'm updating a spreadsheet now that I used to use to track deck costs in paper and MTGO, and I'll try to put it up online in the next couple of days when I'm done. I'm using street prices for cards, as I strongly encourage people to shop around for competitive prices and not use one big vendor like SCG and wildy overpay. Some numbers I've calculated so far (examples using recent SCG and large global tournament T8'ing decks):
ANT (UB no Grim Tutor) - 851.05 (698.30 MTGO)
ANT (UB with Grim Tutor) - 1169.05 (705.55 MTGO)
Cephalid Breakfast - 1079.75 (755.54 MTGO)
CounterTop Thopters (Guibault) - 1050.73 (946.08 MTGO)
CounterTop UWRG (Wienburg) - 1519.83 (1128.04 MTGO)
Dredge (LED-less) - 156.85 (146.17 MTGO)
Goblins (Mono R) - 626.32 (269.66 MTGO; no Rishadan Port online)
Goblins (RB) - 742.80 (287.61 MTGO; no Rishadan Port online)
Merfolk (Mono U Bertoncini) - 754.63 (777.46 MTGO)
Naya Zoo - 822.53 (425.39 MTGO)
Reanimator (LDV) - 1077.04 (972.66 MTGO)
Team America (Confidant) - 1928.00 (1381.35 MTGO)
Team America (Tombstalker) - 1652.26 (1185.86 MTGO)
TES - 679.25 (665.88 MTGO)

Decks are really not that expensive when compared to the costs of playing Standard, and Legacy deck costs aren't really close to an average of $1500 for the most commonly played decks. Sure Blue decks are more expensive in Legacy, just like they have been in nearly every constructed Magic format. That's nothing new.

If you're looking for equality for the masses for everyone, you should be looking at a different game. Magic has always been a collectible card game, and one where the cost to play constructed formats is high. Standard, Extended, Legacy, and Vintage will never be the "everyman's" format. If you are looking for a cheap format to play EDH and draft fit the bill, and that's why so many players gravitate towards those formats.

Yes, there has always been a cost associated with competitive Magic. But you know better than anyone that the cost has gone up tenfold. Shit, man, a decade ago I was buying duals at the end of the extended season for $5-$8. Now the prices are 8-12 times that. Meanwhile my income has gone up about 25% in those same 10 years, from ~42k to ~54k last year. That's a pretty big disparity. It's not going to get better as the cards get older and scarcer. Price increases fuel speculation which fuels further increases.

It's not like I was ever buying tricked out shit; I always bought cheap, but now even buying cheap is expensive. There's no way in hell I'll ever own two Legacy decks at the same time. Not unless I suddenly come into hundreds of thousands of dollars. I wouldn't even have the one I do if you hadn't talked me into going to Indy. Shit's too expensive. If a modded sea runs $150, I don't care. You don't need sexy to play. But when revised Seas will cost you $320 a playset... I'm sorry, I'd rather have the extra car payment.

[Lemnear]

Your complaint is illegitimate, because whether or not you think it's "fair" to complain about those cards, those are the most recent winning lists. It's absolutely irrelevant to bring up budget decks that can't win.

And offering speculative "street" prices for cards is neither verifiable nor helpful, especially to new players who are more likely to be taken for a ride than anything.

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1387
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1361
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1355
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1335
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1329

"most recent winning lists" ... "budget decks that can't win" ... I ... your ... face! Xp

SCG's Card market and tournaments are not the world and not representative. What's the Problem with the street prices if SCG is 30% more expensive than the Street market and players realize that Hand-to-Hand trading is always cheaper? If you think that buying a whole Deck at SCG should be a common way to step into the format we lost a sane base of discussion.

[JACO]

It's impossible to know what you mean by "street price", or verify that. It is however very difficult for someone just getting into the game to find a deck for significantly less than what they'd have to pay SCG for the same...I just showed that they are. You countered with a list of numbers that as far as I can tell you made up from thin air. Unless you want to share your methodology this is not an even exchange.I didn't "make up" shit out of thin air. I'm one of the largest dealers/traders/sellers on MOTL. I have a pretty good idea of what cards go for outside of the scope of an online store like SCG or ChannelFireball. By 'street prices' I mean what people could reliably get something for shopping around on eBay, MOTL, and so on. As I mentioned above, I have a spreadsheet full of decks and the individual cards prices. I'm working on finishing it up, and I'll post it to GoogleDocs on Eternal Central (with a link here) when I'm done so you and everyone can have a look to see the exact methodology and you will be able to sub in your own numbers as well (cross linking cells between sheets for many staples). If someone is concerned about cost of entry I wouldn't supsect they would be buying from an expensive retailer like SCG when there are always deals to be found on eBay and MOTL all the time. The commerce is constant and never stops there, and you can save a signficant amount of money without going on a "six month scavenger hunt."


What? There's nothing magical about blue cards that makes them cost more. The most expensive cards in Standard/Extended are the ones that are played at any given moment.Blue has realistically had the best cards for a long time (creating demand), which drives up the associated costs of building those decks. Even when they attempt to neuter Blue, it still often finds a way to rise to the top even with weaker counterspells, draw, etc. Blue dual lands cost more, things like Ancestral Recall, Mana Drain, Force of Will, and Jace all cost more, etc. I've been playing Magic since Arabian Nights/Unlimited/Antiquities, and it has cost a lot more to play a Blue base deck in constructed Magic since I can remember.


Saying that something is so isn't the same as saying that it should be so. Of course Legacy isn't an everyman's format; hence the thread title. The question is why shouldn't it be more accessible. You and I both love the Legacy format, but I believe WotC is already on the record as saying they would essentially like to divert people from the format to Extended and Standard. The reason is because they don't profit very much from the Eternal formats in terms of card sales, so it makes more sense for them to try and get as many people to play the other PTQ formats as possible (I'm sure someone can dig that quote up for me). If they gave a damn about Legacy they would give away shit like Foil Force of Wills and Wastelands as GP entrance cards, rather than garbage like Maelstrom Pulse. They would also have many more Legacy format Grand Prixs, as they traditionally have been the highest attended GPs on average for any constructed format they've offered (providing WotC/tournament organizers more $ at the gate).



Yes, there has always been a cost associated with competitive Magic. But you know better than anyone that the cost has gone up tenfold. Shit, man, a decade ago I was buying duals at the end of the extended season for $5-$8. Now the prices are 8-12 times that. Meanwhile my income has gone up about 25% in those same 10 years, from ~42k to ~54k last year. That's a pretty big disparity. It's not going to get better as the cards get older and scarcer. Price increases fuel speculation which fuels further increases.That's true, and there's also what we call real world inflation. A decade ago I could get gas for $1.38/gallon (http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_history.html), and today it costs me $4.15/gallon. A decade ago I could get a candy bar for $.49 on the regular at a gas station, and today that shit is $1 on the regular at a gas station. There's been a HUGE influx of international players of Magic, with much better buying power than players in the USA, and that has driven up the price more so than anything, as I mentioned in a post above. As someone else mentioned, dealers at GP Dallas were thinking that Legacy staple prices had hit a plateau, and I don't doubt that. Hot items will get a price bounce, but once people even out their buying and the cards continue to spread (creating less demand once people have gotten what they're looking for), I think many prices will slink back down. Even if we put our tinfoil hats on and hunker down in our basement and try to "imagine" the future and extrapolate every gloom and doom scenario Legacy isn't going to flame out just because good cards cost money. The only way it will flame out is if WotC and places like SCG and the large European tournament organizers stop supporting the format and stop running large tournaments for it. That is the single most important factor in the interest and sustainability of any format.

[Captain_Morgan]

You and I both love the Legacy format, but I believe WotC is already on the record as saying they would essentially like to divert people from the format to Extended and Standard. The reason is because they don't profit very much from the Eternal formats in terms of card sales, so it makes more sense for them to try and get as many people to play the other PTQ formats as possible (I'm sure someone can dig that quote up for me). If they gave a damn about Legacy they would give away shit like Foil Force of Wills and Wastelands as GP entrance cards, rather than garbage like Maelstrom Pulse. They would also have many more Legacy format Grand Prixs, as they traditionally have been the highest attended GPs on average for any constructed format they've offered (providing WotC/tournament organizers more $ at the gate).

Well to begin most of the creature bases are more modern creatures as they shifted the power to creatures away from spells. On the side of Legacy, printing special edition sets, decks, an eternal base set only legal in eternals, and some other product initiatives are all reasonable. To begin Wastelands and Forces can be reprinted at a higher rarity slot in such a set, and a Tarmogoyf can be a mythic. There's other shenanigans as well like different vs. decks that are already in print.



That's true, and there's also what we call real world inflation. A decade ago I could get gas for $1.38/gallon (http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_history.html), and today it costs me $4.15/gallon. A decade ago I could get a candy bar for $.49 on the regular at a gas station, and today that shit is $1 on the regular at a gas station. There's been a HUGE influx of international players of Magic, with much better buying power than players in the USA, and that has driven up the price more so than anything, as I mentioned in a post above. As someone else mentioned, dealers at GP Dallas were thinking that Legacy staple prices had hit a plateau, and I don't doubt that. Hot items will get a price bounce, but once people even out their buying and the cards continue to spread (creating less demand once people have gotten what they're looking for), I think many prices will slink back down. Even if we put our tinfoil hats on and hunker down in our basement and try to "imagine" the future and extrapolate every gloom and doom scenario Legacy isn't going to flame out just because good cards cost money. The only way it will flame out is if WotC and places like SCG and the large European tournament organizers stop supporting the format and stop running large tournaments for it. That is the single most important factor in the interest and sustainability of any format.

The question is also at what level do the prices settle and the long term question of having a format revolve around those distinct cards. While I'm not an advocate for bannings, there's a point to where the introduction of new cards specifically targeted at the unique construct of the Eternals would allow more deck types to flourish. There's a number of dead tribes and the like that only need a small push that they won't receive in standard. There are also unexplored mechanics and themes and storylines left unexplored as well.

There will always be "the best" and always continual adaptation, but putting more speciation into the ecology of the format isn't necessarily bad to bring down prices.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1387
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1361
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1355
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1335
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1329

"most recent winning lists" ... "budget decks that can't win" ... I ... your ... face! Xp

SCG's Card market and tournaments are not the world and not representative. What's the Problem with the street prices if SCG is 30% more expensive than the Street market and players realize that Hand-to-Hand trading is always cheaper? If you think that buying a whole Deck at SCG should be a common way to step into the format we lost a sane base of discussion.

If you scour top 8's of local tournaments for relatively cheap decks- some from the Survival era- and then start talking about "street prices" unilaterally, it's impossible to have a conversation about the average cost of Legacy.

If Jaco finishes his data sheet and has actual numbers showing that people can and do reliably and currently pick up cards for significantly less than SCG prices, then that would be something. Until then it's pointless. I might as well talk about this sweet mono-green lands control deck I built that costs like $50. "Don't Mazes and Tabernacles and Explorations cost a lot more than that, even without the duals?" you'd say. But nah, I'd say, I found them in some dealer's bin for $2 each. But what does that tell us about the format's average cost? Nothing.

[GGoober]

If you scour top 8's of local tournaments for relatively cheap decks- some from the Survival era- and then start talking about "street prices" unilaterally, it's impossible to have a conversation about the average cost of Legacy.

If Jaco finishes his data sheet and has actual numbers showing that people can and do reliably and currently pick up cards for significantly less than SCG prices, then that would be something. Until then it's pointless. I might as well talk about this sweet mono-green lands control deck I built that costs like $50. "Don't Mazes and Tabernacles and Explorations cost a lot more than that, even without the duals?" you'd say. But nah, I'd say, I found them in some dealer's bin for $2 each. But what does that tell us about the format's average cost? Nothing.

I've been following your arguments and supporting them but this is where I feel that Jaco's more correct when it comes to determining the MARKET price on staples

Using your example on finding something in the dealer's bin at $2, similarly, if SCG priced Forces at $200 also mean nothing when the true market cost is ~$70. Should Wastelands be worth $50-60 in just 1-2 months? I don't think so, but I think Wastelands should be worth $50 in the next 1-2 years.

There is only one market value, and that's most accurately given on Ebay. SCG monitors Ebay prices, and prices above and below depending on their strategy on whether they're trying to empty stock (that's when they price competitively against Ebay), or if they're stocking up (They price their buy prices competitively to Ebay sell prices so that you will have little reason not to sell to SCG).

TLDR; Even SCG is pricing according to the market, and there is no other market other than Ebay, at least until Ebay 2.0 or its competitor comes along.

[Lemnear]

If you scour top 8's of local tournaments for relatively cheap decks- some from the Survival era- and then start talking about "street prices" unilaterally, it's impossible to have a conversation about the average cost of Legacy.

If Jaco finishes his data sheet and has actual numbers showing that people can and do reliably and currently pick up cards for significantly less than SCG prices, then that would be something. Until then it's pointless. I might as well talk about this sweet mono-green lands control deck I built that costs like $50. "Don't Mazes and Tabernacles and Explorations cost a lot more than that, even without the duals?" you'd say. But nah, I'd say, I found them in some dealer's bin for $2 each. But what does that tell us about the format's average cost? Nothing.

C'mon ... a tournament with 347 participants is "local" for you? These are some of the newest entries on morphling and I must admit I didn't check the dates. I showed examples with 40 to 50 participants too and I wouldn't call them "Local" either. It only proves that you don't NEED to dump 1k$ or more to win tournaments.

Every tournaments not held by SCG are only "Local" and not relevant for you; SCG's your dogma for pricing worldwide and you try to manipulate people with a narrow poll and false information (1.5k average cost etc.), so why continue arguing?

I nearly bet you doubt JACO's chart too

[Bardo]

Maybe they wouldn't get sued, but some of the people putting pressure on them to stick to it likely buy a lot of product from WotC and have some pull in that regard. Still doesn't really add up though, and I'd love for someone to blow the lid on WotC's secret reserved-list dealings.

I spent 30 or so minutes writing a theory on this and realized a serious flaw in my logic before posting. That sucked. Here's my revised theory (salvaging what I can from my earlier post):

In maintaining the Reserve List, Wizards gets to save face by keeping a promise made more than a decade ago in a reactionary / crisis-management mindset (after the shit hit the fan after the release of Chronicles), keeps happy a small part of their customers who are making them some money (the collectors -- who create some demand for new product), and avoids the PR shit-storm (from collectors and non-collectors alike) if they were to remove it; in exchange for the long-term viability of Eternal formats (which make them no money) and whatever money there is to be made from new product sales that contain reprints that are of interest to the Eternal crowd (an unknown amount to us)

Someone mentioned they're between a rock and a hard place on this one and I agree. The safest, most risk-adverse position is to keep the Reserve List as it is and throw the Eternal crowd under the bus.

[cosme]

While the reserved list is bad I can't think of it as the main problem (the only things there are duals and they could create good substitutes for that when fetchlands rotate out of T2).
The main problem is that WotC doesn't make money out of legacy the secondary market is the one that does, the best solution I can think of is wizards selling singles printed by demand, the price should be equal for every card (obviously or else nothing would change) and high enough that it wouldn't affect standard, extended nor the other sellers (at least not much). And yet this would create an price limit for the secondary market, making competitive players happy that they can play the game without having to worry about price speculation (it's a game for god's sake it's not wall street). Maybe this would just cut some hundreds on the price of the decks but it would make the prices stable and create a virtually endless supply of staples.

And they could print them with white borders in order to keep collectors happy.

And yes I realise that wizards isn't going to do this.

[Lemnear]

While the reserved list is bad I can't think of it as the main problem (the only things there are duals and they could create good substitutes for that when fetchlands rotate out of T2).
The main problem is that WotC doesn't make money out of legacy the secondary market is the one that does, the best solution I can think of is wizards selling singles printed by demand, the price should be equal for every card (obviously or else nothing would change) and high enough that it wouldn't affect standard, extended nor the other sellers (at least not much). And yet this would create an price limit for the secondary market, making competitive players happy that they can play the game without having to worry about price speculation (it's a game for god's sake it's not wall street). Maybe this would just cut some hundreds on the price of the decks but it would make the prices stable and create a virtually endless supply of staples.

And they could print them with white borders in order to keep collectors happy.

And yes I realise that wizards isn't going to do this.

I'm not sure if that stands true: If I look at all the Zoo variants, meervolk, countertop, Team America etc. lists most cards are from mirrodin and newer so I really don't think WotC isn't earning money with eternal. Sure Nacatl, Countertop, preordain and Co. are lower rarities most of the time but Mox Opal and TezzAoB are recent high rarity printing that see play in eternal. There is enough space for eternal printings and WotC is aware of that as Lodestone Golem is a card designed to push workshops in vintage.

[Final Fortune]

I spent 30 or so minutes writing a theory on this and realized a serious flaw in my logic before posting. That sucked. Here's my revised theory (salvaging what I can from my earlier post):

In maintaining the Reserve List, Wizards gets to save face by keeping a promise made more than a decade ago in a reactionary / crisis-management mindset (after the shit hit the fan after the release of Chronicles), keeps happy a small part of their customers who are making them some money (the collectors -- who create some demand for new product), and avoids the PR shit-storm (from collectors and non-collectors alike) if they were to remove it; in exchange for the long-term viability of Eternal formats (which make them no money) and whatever money there is to be made from new product sales that contain reprints that are of interest to the Eternal crowd (an unknown amount to us)

Someone mentioned they're between a rock and a hard place on this one and I agree. The safest, most risk-adverse position is to keep the Reserve List as it is and throw the Eternal crowd under the bus.

Can't they just re-print functional equivalents to the reserve list and "side step" the issue, I mean all we're really talking about on the reserved list is Dual Lands, just make Snow Covered Dual Lands in standard and at least the price issue for manabases drops significantly.

I mean, I have no idea why Power Creep applies to everything but Lands in Magic, it's kind of stupid the only "equivalent or better" than Duals that have ever been printed is Fetches.

[Malchar]

Can't they just re-print functional equivalents to the reserve list and "side step" the issue, I mean all we're really talking about on the reserved list is Dual Lands, just make Snow Covered Dual Lands in standard and at least the price issue for manabases drops significantly.

I mean, I have no idea why Power Creep applies to everything but Lands in Magic, it's kind of stupid the only "equivalent or better" than Duals that have ever been printed is Fetches.

Well, they could just get rid of the reserve list if they wanted to. The point is that Wizards doesn't want to reprint duals in any form.

[kiblast]

I mean, I have no idea why Power Creep applies to everything but Lands in Magic, it's kind of stupid the only "equivalent or better" than Duals that have ever been printed is Fetches.

I can't understand how you would apply power creep to lands. A better Sea? And what should it do better than the old one? A built in artificial intelligence which ensures maximum randomization ?

If you haven't noticed, incessant power creeping of creatures, istants and every non land card only makes your fetchlands and duals increasingly better. Notice how powerful has become Wooded Foothills into Taiga for Zoo since the printing of Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf. Notice how Tropical Island has become one of the most important duals in the format due to the presence of Tarmogoyf / Trygon Predator and Goyf based baseruption/ control. You don't need a better dual land, because that dual itself is becoming stronger due to the power creep of other cards in general.

[Final Fortune]

I can't understand how you would apply power creep to lands. A better Sea? And what should it do better than the old one? A built in artificial intelligence which ensures maximum randomization ?

If you haven't noticed, incessant power creeping of creatures, istants and every non land card only makes your fetchlands and duals increasingly better. Notice how powerful has become Wooded Foothills into Taiga for Zoo since the printing of Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf. Notice how Tropical Island has become one of the most important duals in the format due to the presence of Tarmogoyf / Trygon Predator and Goyf based baseruption/ control. You don't need a better dual land, because that dual itself is becoming stronger due to the power creep of other cards in general.

Power Creep in terms of design, if they don't want to reprint dual lands, then they have to print lands that differentiate themselves from dual lands instead of being worse versions of dual lands i.e. multi color man lands that come into play untapped or more functional City of Brass clones. Design for lands is just stuck repeating shitty version of older cards with very few excpetions, if they don't want to ever print anything better than dual lands and City of Brass then they need to push the evelope in other directions.

[Lemnear]

CIP Untapped multicolor manlands? Aren't you asking for a bit much? Btw. this thread teached me, that people would complain that these aren't fetchable ;)

[Final Fortune]

It's just an example, I'm certain there's a point between color fixing and utility that'd make people consider alternatives to dual lands, like 3 color pain lands etc.