Miracle Control

[sdematt]

I like your ideas sdematt.

mind to share your list?

Sure. It's a bit of an older list, but I've liked it. The Venser is replacing a Clique from my list that I've played for ages, but I'm trying to see how the Venser wagon is.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
4 Island
2 Karakas
3 Tundra
1 Mystic Gate
2 Volcanic Island
23

3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
22

3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives

2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Snapcaster Mage (new addition, not sure if I'll up him or keep him, etc. This was Elspeth, which was amazing)
16

//BOARD

(My traditional list)
1 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Wear/Tear
1 Blood Moon (just can't get enough)
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Rest in Peace
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Leyline of Sanctity

or..
(The list I played recently)
1 Moat
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Wear/Tear
1 Blood Moon (just can't get enough)
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Rest in Peace
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Pyroclasm
2 Misdirection

Leylines were good when they were good, but at the most recent tournament, I didn't need them, so I didn't pack them.

[Rook1e]

Hi guys.

I haven't played my Miracles deck for a while, but i'm considering picking it up again.

I just have some questions:

How is Moat performing? Is it worth the investment?

I've been following Joe Lossett's streams for a while (on and off) and keep my list somewhat updated based on his list. But i would really like to find place to the 4th Swords to Plowshares

For reference, this is my list:

Land (23)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Enchantment (5)
4x Counterbalance
1x Rest in Peace

Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Flusterstorm
3x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (6)
2x Entreat the Angels
1x Supreme Verdict
3x Terminus

Creature (4)
3x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant

Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
2x Misdirection
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Terminus
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Wear / Tear

Feel free to come with suggestions :)

/Rook

[YamiJoey]

Hi guys.

I haven't played my Miracles deck for a while, but i'm considering picking it up again.

I just have some questions:

How is Moat performing? Is it worth the investment?

I've been following Joe Lossett's streams for a while (on and off) and keep my list somewhat updated based on his list. But i would really like to find place to the 4th Swords to Plowshares

Lossett streams? Can I get a link for future reference?

The guy's been my Legacy idol for a while now, didn't even know he did much like that, so it'd be cool to get a real insight. I've recently switched to a Clique/Venser build over Rip Helm, which is more in line with his style. Playing Creatures just simplifies things. It's fairly similar to your build.

Also, REB is better than Pyro. The split is less effective than slight protection from Misdirection. (They can redirect a Pyro at a FoW to your Counterbalance/Jace/Creature, whereas with REB it's just a counterspell.)

[kaosjr]

Hi guys.

I haven't played my Miracles deck for a while, but i'm considering picking it up again.

I just have some questions:

How is Moat performing? Is it worth the investment?

I've been following Joe Lossett's streams for a while (on and off) and keep my list somewhat updated based on his list. But i would really like to find place to the 4th Swords to Plowshares

Here is my current list. Moat has over-performed this far, as most decks have 0-1 outs against it. At that point you only need to deal with deathrite or delver, depending on the matchup. Tidehollows have also been spectacular. They're everything and more than meddling Mage hoped to be. An Enlightened tutor may find it's way into my board as it fetches moat, humility, even tidehollow sculler.

Creatures:4
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Spells:33
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Rest in Peace
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat
3 Force of Will
3 Terminus

Lands:23
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Celestial Purge
1 Disenchant
1 Rest in Peace
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Humility
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

[mini1337s]

Here is my current list. Moat has over-performed this far, as most decks have 0-1 outs against it. At that point you only need to deal with deathrite or delver, depending on the matchup.

Agreed. Decks like Shardless BUG have to find singleton Maelstrom Pulses or ultimate a Liliana to really deal with it. I've been running 1-2 Humility in the side as well, which, in tandem, is game over for many decks (I'm on a heavier RiP version with Helm/E Field).

[cschacal]

There is anybody testing "Unexpectedly Absent"? I think this card deserves some attention. It is a flexible removal card that maybe has a place in snapcaster builds.

[kaosjr]

There is anybody testing "Unexpectedly Absent"? I think this card deserves some attention. It is a flexible removal card that maybe has a place in snapcaster builds.

I thought about using it, and then I remembered my venser does almost the same thing and is reusable with karakas. I could however see my flex spot (currently RIP) changing to this.

[thecrav]

Lossett streams? Can I get a link for future reference?


http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79

[Dzra]

I like a lot of what Lossett does, but I've never been a fan of cutting a Swords. 4 MD sweepers is fine and good, but even still, I'd run the full set of Swords.

I've liked Moat a whole lot. Completely won a game against Slivers all by itself today. He had Crystalline, double Muscle, and Mutavault in play and all my Swords and spot removal were super dead. I drop to like 7 or something. EoT I Enlightened Tutor for Moat. Untap, Moat, win. I've had similar experiences against Death and Taxes and Merfolk.

18-player tournament tonight, went 3-1-1.

Round 1: Lands, 2-0

Round 2: Slivers, 2-0

Round 3: Oops All Spells 0-2 (that's right... wah wah...)
G1, I know what he's on so I mull to 6 looking for FoW. I keep FoW, Jace, Plains, Mystic Gate, Entreat, Terminus. I play Plains and pass. He goes Chrome Mox -> Dark Ritual -> Grim Monolith -> Balustrade Spy. I FoW and he passes. I play Mystic Gate, drawing Jace. I miss my 4th land drop and continue to draw nothing. He eventually refills and goes off again on turn 4 or so? This time he gets there.

G2, I keep a hand of Brainstorm, FoW, Clique, Venser, Counterbalance, REB, Top, Volcanic. Play Volcanic and pass. He goes Street Wraith x3 then Lotus Petal -> Dark Ritual -> Manamorphose -> Cabal Therapy. I BS, drawing Counterspell, Clique, fetchland, putting back CB and Clique. He names FoW and I die. Apparently he also had the Pact of Negation, just in case. Perhaps I should have either FoW'd his Dark Ritual or his Manamorphose, but I'm not really sure.

Round 4: Junk Dark Depths, 2-1
I drew Karakas all three games, which was awesome (props to double Karakas). In two of the games, he played an early Pithing Needle (one on Top, one on Jace). In both Needle games, I was eventually able to get CB on the board and Venser his Needle back to hand, CB locking it from coming back down. I lost game 2 because I boarded all of my FoW's out and didn't realize he was running this card: Rite of Consumption, which allowed him to kill me through Karakas and Swords. G3, I bring back in FoWs and things go smoothly again.

Round 5: ANT, ID

[twndomn]

I like a lot of what Lossett does, but I've never been a fan of cutting a Swords. 4 MD sweepers is fine and good, but even still, I'd run the full set of Swords.


There were multiple occasions when I'm facing lethal on my opponent's next turn, I dig/top and find a Sword, sad face. I wish that Sword's a mass removal. This usually is the case against Goblin/Delver... or any other Vial decks.

If you run snapcasters, you should run 4 Swords. Other than that reasoning, I would just follow what Oarsman does.

[TheArchitect]

Lossett streams? Can I get a link for future reference?

The guy's been my Legacy idol for a while now, didn't even know he did much like that, so it'd be cool to get a real insight. I've recently switched to a Clique/Venser build over Rip Helm, which is more in line with his style. Playing Creatures just simplifies things. It's fairly similar to your build.

Also, REB is better than Pyro. The split is less effective than slight protection from Misdirection. (They can redirect a Pyro at a FoW to your Counterbalance/Jace/Creature, whereas with REB it's just a counterspell.)

That is not true. Once the mode has been chosen redirecting it cannot change the mode. The only time that is relevant is if your opponent has a delver or something blue that's a permanent and you want to pyroblast it. There are not other blue permanents but it can get redirected to a land and do nothing.

Otherwise, pyroblast has more advantages. Hits non-blue phantasmal images, is good with Ebridge or storm, etc.

[YamiJoey]

That is not true. Once the mode has been chosen redirecting it cannot change the mode. The only time that is relevant is if your opponent has a delver or something blue that's a permanent and you want to pyroblast it. There are not other blue permanents but it can get redirected to a land and do nothing.

Otherwise, pyroblast has more advantages. Hits non-blue phantasmal images, is good with Ebridge or storm, etc.

Pyroblast isn't Modal, REB is. That's why REB is better.

I geberally cut an StP from draft list really early. We play inherently more removal than half the format as it is, and we are left with ~6 1-mana removal Spells, and a 4-mana uncounterable Sweeper, so it's mostly fine. If you're essentially cutting it for a Moat, then you're swapping it for another pseudo-sweeper, so you remain on the same amounts of answers to Creatures, just a more varied (and expensive) range.

EDIT: Also; Bridge is bad for a deck attempting to keep control, and therefore a full grip, and we are not a Storm deck so why is that relevant?

[sarapfish]

I've liked Moat a whole lot. Completely won a game against Slivers all by itself today. He had Crystalline, double Muscle, and Mutavault in play and all my Swords and spot removal were super dead. I drop to like 7 or something. EoT I Enlightened Tutor for Moat. Untap, Moat, win. I've had similar experiences against Death and Taxes and Merfolk.

Round 2: Slivers, 2-0


Nice result! Although, I think -- usually Slivers can get to fly so Moat isn't an auto-win. Slivers are a real pain when they render your counters and spot removal useless.

[Rook1e]

According to the errata on both cards they both modal?

[Jakgotbak]

Pyroblast isn't Modal, REB is. That's why REB is better.

They're both modal:
http://magiccards.info/query?q=Pyroblast&v=card&s=cname
http://magiccards.info/query?q=Red+elemental&v=card&s=cname

The difference between the two is negligible at this point, but I have beta red blasts, so that's what I play. I don't even bother with the split, b/c if an opponent wants to cut me off red blasts with Meddling Mage instead of naming Jace or Entreat or Top, they're more than welcome.

Also, the Phantasmal Image interaction is only relevant if you have a non-blue creature for them to copy, which is why pyro is better in RUG. For us, though, pretty irrelevant.

It's possible I'm missing something, and I'm sure I'll regret it if I ever get cabal therapy'ed with two in hand, but for now I'm sticking with REB b/c they're prettier, and that's good enough for me.

[alphastryk]

They're both modal:
http://magiccards.info/query?q=Pyroblast&v=card&s=cname
http://magiccards.info/query?q=Red+elemental&v=card&s=cname

The difference between the two is negligible at this point, but I have beta red blasts, so that's what I play. I don't even bother with the split, b/c if an opponent wants to cut me off red blasts with Meddling Mage instead of naming Jace or Entreat or Top, they're more than welcome.

Also, the Phantasmal Image interaction is only relevant if you have a non-blue creature for them to copy, which is why pyro is better in RUG. For us, though, pretty irrelevant.

It's possible I'm missing something, and I'm sure I'll regret it if I ever get cabal therapy'ed with two in hand, but for now I'm sticking with REB b/c they're prettier, and that's good enough for me.

They're both modal. REB is I think correct to play in this deck so it won't get misdirected from Jace to a nonblue permanent. Not hugely relevant though.

Pyro is better in deck where casting a spell that does nothing is good in addition to the Phantasmal Image thing. (building storm, making Young Pyromance tokens, filling the graveyard for DRS or lavamancer, etc)

[matunos]

G2, I keep a hand of Brainstorm, FoW, Clique, Venser, Counterbalance, REB, Top, Volcanic. Play Volcanic and pass. He goes Street Wraith x3 then Lotus Petal -> Dark Ritual -> Manamorphose -> Cabal Therapy. I BS, drawing Counterspell, Clique, fetchland, putting back CB and Clique. He names FoW and I die. Apparently he also had the Pact of Negation, just in case. Perhaps I should have either FoW'd his Dark Ritual or his Manamorphose, but I'm not really sure.


How does he cast Manamorphose off a Dark Ritual?

[YamiJoey]

Well bollocks my whistle I was wrong. Whatever, then.

Moat Vs Slivers definitely doesn't seem like an auto-win, but whatever it's Slivers and Terminus and Verdict should basically be it the game.

^^^
Well Drza kept 8 cards, so fuck knows what was going on in that game.

[alphastryk]

How does he cast Manamorphose off a Dark Ritual?

Yeah, that doesn't add up. Either way, counter the first fast mana from that deck if you can, that will stop them for at least a turn. (dark ritual in this case)

EDIT:


Well bollocks my whistle I was wrong. Whatever, then.

Moat Vs Slivers definitely doesn't seem like an auto-win, but whatever it's Slivers and Terminus and Verdict should basically be it the game.

^^^
Well Drza kept 8 cards, so fuck knows what was going on in that game.

Yeah, the reporting seems a bit off for that game...

[Kyle]

Hey best friend team, here's my upcoming "Big-Tourney Deck," which I would love some feedback on. I've been playing a "creatureless" version and loving it, with a maindeck Blood Moon. I know there's a fierce Pro Blood Moon / Anti Blood Moon argument, but I think it's relatively easy to filter out and can be a damn shutout against 50% of the decks out there. I currently like my enchantment-heavy build, but know there is room for improvement and flex spots to cut stuff out.

I've found lately that 22 lands with only 8 early-game ways to filter can sometimes get me into trouble and I've been having issues getting a T1 Top, plus my blue count seems a little low for FoW. Given that I'm expecting True Name Nemesis to come out in full force very soon and possibly at SCG LA, I'm thinking another MD Terminus might not be a bad idea.

And lastly, I think my sideboard definitely needs some tweaking.

Without further ado, here we go. I really appreciate yo' feedback.

//Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

//Sorceries
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus

//Enchantments
1 Energy Field
3 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon

//Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top

//Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Karakas

//Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Moat
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

[alphastryk]

Kyle - I like that list a lot, pretty close to where I'm at. A few questions though -

1) You really like having 6 pitch counters main? that seems like a lot, especially considering how little misdirection has done for me. Has it been good for you?

2) No Oblivion Ring / D Sphere / EE tutorable general answer effect main? any particular reasoning there or was it just the weakest card and got cut?

Sideboard-wise, I really don't feel like needle does enough these days, what have you felt like you need it against?

[Aetherick]

List

If you're worried about Nemesis, I would prefer to use a Supreme Verdict. Nemesis seems to fit well in those tempo and blade strats and having an uncounterable answer seems better than the fourth terminus. It's also blue.

I think with 4 FoW and 2 Misdirection you have too many pitch effects, and if you ever use one you will probably find yourself unable to cast the other.

I would suggest either cutting down to 3 FoW, or moving 1 of the misdirections to the board (possibly replacing 1 needle, you run tutors so seeing it when you need it shouldn't be too much a problem, and I don't think I would ever want to see multiple needles)

Karakas also seems kind of random with only 2 cliques in the sb.

[Dzra]

Nice result! Although, I think -- usually Slivers can get to fly so Moat isn't an auto-win. Slivers are a real pain when they render your counters and spot removal useless.


Moat Vs Slivers definitely doesn't seem like an auto-win, but whatever it's Slivers and Terminus and Verdict should basically be it the game.

I should say that it's not that Moat should or will always be an auto-win, but in this case he looked at it and said that he had no answers and scooped. He had ended up boarding out his Galerider Slivers for Phyrexian Revokers. I told him after that it was probably wrong, but he still seemed to think it was fine. Regardless, Moat is still solid against them since they have to actually draw their flying sliver and not have it get Swords'd or REB'd. Crystalline is the worst part of this MU by far.


Well Drza kept 8 cards, so fuck knows what was going on in that game.

Good point lol. It was kind of late when I got home and wrote this... I must not have had the other Clique from the opener.


How does he cast Manamorphose off a Dark Ritual?

Sorry ;p ... again, it was kind of late. He pitched a Spirit Guide somewhere in the sequence.


Yeah, that doesn't add up. Either way, counter the first fast mana from that deck if you can, that will stop them for at least a turn. (dark ritual in this case)

Yeah, this is the conclusion that I came to. A better line would have been FoW the Ritual and hold up REB/Brainstorm, hoping that I can Brainstorm EoT and find the second land for Counterbalance. I'm fairly certain that leaving Venser on top would ensure that I cannot die since regardless of which creature he goes for, he cannot cast Dread Return. Possibly it's better to even let the creature resolve if you can put a 4-drop on top, let him dump his deck, then just be all in on countering his Dread Return? I don't think they have access to offensive shuffles or any way to disrupt the top of your deck.


List.

I agree that 6 pitch spells is too much. Probably you want no more than 4 MD, although I agree with alphastryk and am not a fan of Misdirection. (Needle has also been very lackluster for me lately.)

The Energy Field sort of takes the place of the 4th sweeper MD, but you wouldn't do badly to have the Supreme Verdict in the SB regardless.

I'd feel a bit worried about having only ORing and Humility as relevant drops off SNT (and Humility is only good against Sneak Attack). I'd consider adding a Venser or something to your SB. I am completely in love with Venser.

[Kyle]

Thanks for the responses everyone, yes, the maindeck Misdirections are the weakest cards I think right now, and my blue count is a little low for 4 FoWs, so I changed up my list a little more:

//MD
-2 Misdirection
-1 Force of Will
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Counterspell

//SB
-1 Flusterstorm
+1 Supreme Verdict

This takes me to 60 cards exactly (I was at 61 before).

I absolutely love Venser and used to use him a lot in the past, but he can be really clunky at times. He is definitely an "answer to everything" in many cases and then gives the Karakas some real warrant, but I'm now at a position where I should figure out whether or not the Cliques should be MD, which requires more cutting from my current build and strategy.

I'm having a bit of a mental block as to what I should cut or swap next. If I'm expecting a lot of combo at SCG:LA, should I tweak more of the MD at this point? Should I put a MD Flusterstorm instead of the Counterspell? So many decisions...

Regarding the Pithing Needles, I have found them to be quite useful to name Liliana, DrShaman, Metalworker, and Forgemaster, but maybe the Needles could be something better.

[kaosjr]

In my experience Vendilion clique has been one of the most over performing cards in the deck. I'm playing 3 in the main and would never look back. They are good in literally every matchup. Taking Lilliana, disrupting combo, providing a clock vs combo and even pressuring already present planeswalkers. You can also cycle dead cards in your hand. On top of that, I often find myself "clique locking" my opponent with karakas and recasting it on their draw step every turn. The body also trades with nimble mongoose, delvers, attacking pyromancers, bobs, and small goyfs which combined with it's ability can be utterly devastating to an opponent.

[Dzra]

In my experience Vendilion clique has been one of the most over performing cards in the deck. I'm playing 3 in the main and would never look back. They are good in literally every matchup.

Clique + Karakas worked over Lands really well the other night. I felt marginally bad.

[Kyle]

In my experience Vendilion clique has been one of the most over performing cards in the deck. I'm playing 3 in the main and would never look back. They are good in literally every matchup. Taking Lilliana, disrupting combo, providing a clock vs combo and even pressuring already present planeswalkers. You can also cycle dead cards in your hand. On top of that, I often find myself "clique locking" my opponent with karakas and recasting it on their draw step every turn. The body also trades with nimble mongoose, delvers, attacking pyromancers, bobs, and small goyfs which combined with it's ability can be utterly devastating to an opponent.

Yes, my past (once preferred) list ran 2 Cliques and 1 Venser, but didn't have much room with this enchantment-heavy build. I'll keep tweaking, but I'm unsure what to cut.

[kaosjr]

Yes, my past (once preferred) list ran 2 Cliques and 1 Venser, but didn't have much room with this enchantment-heavy build. I'll keep tweaking, but I'm unsure what to cut.

If you have any interest look back for my punishing miracles list. It's pretty sweet haha.

[Kyle]

Given that Miracles has a big problem with Liliana of the Veil, what is really the best thing to get around her? It's often difficult to counter her as it's likely a Liliana player will have already ripped the FoW and/or Spell Pierce out of your hand. I've seen, mostly as reactive options:


Pithing Needle
Oblivion Ring
Detention Sphere
Celestial Purge
Engineered Explosives
Venser, Shaper Savant
Vendilion Clique (not an insta-kill, just an answer to kill her)


I know in the past people have talked about Bonfire of the Damned in this thread as a Miracles archetype idea if you went a heavy-red route, but could it be that it's a pretty decent idea as a 1- or 2-of in the sideboard even in red-splash builds? It can't be cast if there's an active Teeg out, but maybe it's decent enough - for just 3 mana it could sweep most of your opponent's creatures and a Planeswalker. Just an idea...

[supachai]

Given that Miracles has a big problem with Liliana of the Veil, what is really the best thing to get around her? It's often difficult to counter her as it's likely a Liliana player will have already ripped the FoW and/or Spell Pierce out of your hand. I've seen, mostly as reactive options:


Pithing Needle
Oblivion Ring
Detention Sphere
Celestial Purge
Engineered Explosives
Venser, Shaper Savant
Vendilion Clique (not an insta-kill, just an answer to kill her)


I know in the past people have talked about Bonfire of the Damned in this thread as a Miracles archetype idea if you went a heavy-red route, but could it be that it's a pretty decent idea as a 1- or 2-of in the sideboard even in red-splash builds? It can't be cast if there's an active Teeg out, but maybe it's decent enough - for just 3 mana it could sweep most of your opponent's creatures and a Planeswalker. Just an idea...

I don't think Liliana is scary enough of a threat to warrant any extra dedicated cards. Unless your meta is full of Jund and Shardless BUG, 3 Cliques plus Venser is usually enough to deal with her. With tight play and the correct game plan, Liliana is very beatable, assuming she doesn't come down turn 2.

Liliana is scariest earliest in the game. We aren't super afraid of her plusing, and her sacrifice ability isn't usually that relevant. We are only afraid of her ultimate, which kills our lands. It's scariest early because we have few ways to stop her. Once we hit 3 lands, Clique can come in end of turn and take a huge chunk out of Liliana, usually preventing her from minusing without killing herself or sometimes just killing Liliana directly. If Liliana has built up to 5-6 counters, Venser can come in to reset her (sometimes in response to her plus, which is amazing). I find that letting Liliana discard both of our hands, and then letting Venser get rid of her and put us both in top deck mode actually favors us, especially if we have Top in play. Of course, that's not always going to happen, and sometimes Liliana ultimate will get you, but even then, it's not the end of the world. You can Entreat in response, or slowly build up your lands again if they don't have the pressure. Either way, your game plan should be Clique and Venser. If you can't deal with Liliana immediately, turn 2 (and turn 3 to an extent) Liliana should probably warrant a Force. Even better if you can snag it with Spell Pierce (and why I run 3 main).

Out of the board, you also have Explosives (and Needle I guess, but I wouldn't board that in against Jund/BUG). I would stay away from narrow cards like Celestial Purge.

Like people have been saying, Clique is absolutely amazing. Run 3.

[Dzra]

Given that Miracles has a big problem with Liliana of the Veil, what is really the best thing to get around her?

The best things that I've found are having more Cliques, Entreats, and Vensers. Leyline of Sanctity is also really good at stopping the relevant parts of Liliana (and can be run as a 1-of with Enlightened Tutor).

[twndomn]

Given that Miracles has a big problem with Liliana of the Veil, what is really the best thing to get around her? It's often difficult to counter her as it's likely a Liliana player will have already ripped the FoW and/or Spell Pierce out of your hand. I've seen, mostly as reactive options:


"Big" problem is an incorrect assessment. Liliana by herself is not the issue here. If both Shardless Bug and Miracle have nothing but lands (non-tarpit) with no hands, with Liliana on Shardless player's side and Top on Miracle's side, it's actually more advantageous for the Miracle player.

In reality, Liliana ultimate is the only thing you have to play around. As to your list, I would argue Elspeth is another option. Also, your ability to deal with Liliana depends on which version you're running. Rip-Helm game 1 is probably the worst. Even with SB, it's not that great if you don't start the game w/ leyline. As others said, if Shardless Bug is rampant in your local area, Punishing Miracle is always an option.

[YamiJoey]

If Lili is big in your area; RiP Helm is probably the best version of the deck. A G1 Rip just ends things against a fair few decks.

Either way, Lili is one of the Spells I'd be fine Forcing and such, if not my D-Sphere/EE will have to get there. She's good, but we can deal with it.

Also D-Sphere is incredibly important for Creatureless builds.

[blacknapkins]

Also, your ability to deal with Liliana depends on which version you're running. Rip-Helm game 1 is probably the worst. Even with SB, it's not that great if you don't start the game w/ leyline. As others said, if Shardless Bug is rampant in your local area, Punishing Miracle is always an option.

I can speak to the viability of Punishing Miracles against Liliana decks. I have run Punishing Fires in Miracles for months, and it has proven an effective means of holding off BGx decks that run out Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant, Liliana etc.. With the Grove/Fire combo online Shardless BUG and Jund (two matchups I found difficult when I was playing a RIP/Helm list) basically have to Wasteland the Grove to make any serious advancement on the board. Buying time in this manner allows us to dig for a bomb, be it Moat, Humility or Entreat, and close out the game. I have liked the Punishing Fires a lot, and coupled with my sideboard Leylines I feel like I can neuter Liliana pretty handily.

That said, I have found the tempo match ups more difficult than I expected. Punishing Miracles, in theory, seems effective here again, but in practice I have have lost more matches against UWR Delver than I have won.. This is the only match up where the mana base instability can really be exploited by our opponent. I also just find the tempo match up to be the trickiest to navigate (I'm open to advice on how to handle the tempo decks, UWR Delver in particular).

For reference here is my Punishing Miracles list. I used to run an Enlightened Tutor package instead of the Cliques/Venser/Karakas tech, but I wanted more reach against my opponents. I've considered going back to main deck Tutors so that I can readily find bombs like Moat or Blood Moon (I never liked turning off the Grove/Fire combo with a Blood Moon, but that card will win games on its own if the board is clear).

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Vendilion Clique

3 Punishing Fire
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
1 Detention Sphere

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels

4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Karakas

SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Terminus
SB: 1 Moat

[Poron]

I see lists without both Snapcaster Mage and Rest in Peace. Imho, it should be either one of the two

[Kyle]

If Lili is big in your area; RiP Helm is probably the best version of the deck. A G1 Rip just ends things against a fair few decks.

Either way, Lili is one of the Spells I'd be fine Forcing and such, if not my D-Sphere/EE will have to get there. She's good, but we can deal with it.

Also D-Sphere is incredibly important for Creatureless builds.

Is the main reason for D-Sphere over O-Ring that it can take out multiple threats at a time, or can be pitched to Force of Will? I think with REBs Show and Tell will be bringing in postboard, it might be a liability, but maybe it's such a narrow liability for such great benefit?

[Poron]

I start to think that we should start to consider a couple of Equipment in sight of adding the new Merfolk..

[twndomn]

If Lili is big in your area; RiP Helm is probably the best version of the deck. A G1 Rip just ends things against a fair few decks.

That's just plain wrong. G1 Rip does nothing to Shardless BUG's Strix, Jace, Liliana, Ancestral Vision, Tarpit. It ends nothing. You assume only Jund would run Liliana, that's about the only case Rip Helm would be ok.

As Oarsman mentioned before, ever since the Legend rule change, the version suffers the most is Rip Helm, because that version lacks ways to pressure opponent's planeswalker(s). You might get lucky by resolving a Ring/Sphere on Liliana, but Shardless just drop another Jace/Liliana after. Your Ring/Sphere does nothing to protect your own Jace from Tarpit anyhow.

[Dzra]

Is the main reason for D-Sphere over O-Ring that it can take out multiple threats at a time, or can be pitched to Force of Will? I think with REBs Show and Tell will be bringing in postboard, it might be a liability, but maybe it's such a narrow liability for such great benefit?

Really, Sneak Attack is the only deck I'm worried about REBing my DSphere. The mirror is the only other MU where it might come up, but there's a good chance I'm willing to throw away my DSphere for their REB. I haven't been blown out by Sneak Attack yet, but there is a fear that I'll drop DSphere off of an early Show and Tell only to have it REB'd during my EoT. Against anything else, DSphere is pretty much just better.

That said... in light of the Invitational results, perhaps an ORing would be safer for a large tournament or just replacing it outright with a Pithing Needle. I really dislike Pithing Needle at the moment, but it is amazing against Sneak Attack. I assume also that if you put a Pithing Needle down off of Show and Tell that they would be unable to respond with either their Griselbrand or their Sneak Attack?

[Aetherick]

That said... in light of the Invitational results, perhaps an ORing would be safer for a large tournament or just replacing it outright with a Pithing Needle. I really dislike Pithing Needle at the moment, but it is amazing against Sneak Attack. I assume also that if you put a Pithing Needle down off of Show and Tell that they would be unable to respond with either their Griselbrand or their Sneak Attack?

Yep, since it's an "As pithing needle ... " instead of "When", so there's no trigger. And since they enter at the same time, they can't do anything until you name something.

[YamiJoey]

That's just plain wrong. G1 Rip does nothing to Shardless BUG's Strix, Jace, Liliana, Ancestral Vision, Tarpit. It ends nothing. You assume only Jund would run Liliana, that's about the only case Rip Helm would be ok.

As Oarsman mentioned before, ever since the Legend rule change, the version suffers the most is Rip Helm, because that version lacks ways to pressure opponent's planeswalker(s). You might get lucky by resolving a Ring/Sphere on Liliana, but Shardless just drop another Jace/Liliana after. Your Ring/Sphere does nothing to protect your own Jace from Tarpit anyhow.

WTF it stops DRS and Goyf, which are two major threats. I also didnnt say it kills Shardless, just that it was good there. It turns of a couple of cards in their deck, and the overall build has things like Energy Field to help you beat tedius Tar Pits and things.

D-Sphere is just so much better; right down to hitting Angels in the mirror.

[twndomn]

WTF it stops DRS and Goyf, which are two major threats. I also didnnt say it kills Shardless, just that it was good there. It turns of a couple of cards in their deck, and the overall build has things like Energy Field to help you beat tedius Tar Pits and things.
D-Sphere is just so much better; right down to hitting Angels in the mirror.

The scenario of the following has a higher probability of occurring:
1. You get your Rip-EF going
2. Shardless cascade into vision or brainstorm to draw more cards.
3. Eventually Shardless Abrupt Decay RiP, then wasteland your non-basic, hence EF is gone.
4. Now Shardless tries to resolve Liliana/Jace, bury you in CA.

The bottom line is what others have mentioned, after Legend rule change was implemented, Rip-Helm has no real ways of pressuring opponent's Planeswalkers, unless you jam Clique into that version somehow. This weakness is even more evident against Shardless BUG, since it has so many. Shardless doesn't have to beat Miracle using DRS and/or Goyf, simply resolving planeswalker and/or A. Vision would do.

D-Sphere is just so much worse. The only plus side is the FoW-pitch. When you intend to remove something from the board, you want to be sure DS/ORing will stick. Getting REB/Pryo totally defeats that purpose, it's a waste of slot. Which Miracle novice would play Entreat on his own turn, knowing it's a mirror match, to give his mirror opponent a chance to play DS?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm pretty sure that energy field just dies when RIP dies as RIP's effect is a Static effect, and stops effecting the game the moment it leaves play, before it hits the yard. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how it's been explained to me.

-ABC

[Aetherick]

I'm pretty sure that energy field just dies when RIP dies as RIP's effect is a Static effect, and stops effecting the game the moment it leaves play, before it hits the yard. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how it's been explained to me.

-ABC

Rest in Peace exiles itself when it dies:

10/1/2012 If Rest in Peace is destroyed by a spell, Rest in Peace will be exiled and then the spell will be put into its owner's graveyard.

So no, energy field will not be sacrificed because your rest in peace explodes

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I hate bad, low-level judges. Hate them.

-ABC

[Dzra]

Yeah, if you're ever unsure, just ask them to find it in the comprehensive rules. Most usually will. Likewise, if you already know that you're right, you can show them where to look in the rules. At bigger events, this won't usually be a problem.

[thecrav]

I hate bad, low-level judges. Hate them.

-ABC

This isn't a low level judge problem, it's a bad judge problem. Plz don't hate.

[YamiJoey]

I play a 1-of Needle in my board with either 1 or 2 Tutors in my 74, and I've loved it. Since I've been trying Tutorless builds I've wanted it less and less.

[KZhang]

Can anyone who plays mtgo help me with something regarding Sensei Divining Top?

how can i set it such that when i activate top's ability, it allows me to response to it?

Thanks!

[dsck]

Can anyone who plays mtgo help me with something regarding Sensei Divining Top?

how can i set it such that when i activate top's ability, it allows me to response to it?

Thanks!

I think you have to hold left control to keep priority?

[Water_Wizard]

Can anyone who plays mtgo help me with something regarding Sensei Divining Top?

how can i set it such that when i activate top's ability, it allows me to response to it?

Thanks!

You have to hold CTRL the whole time you are using the top. Press CTRL and it allows you to keep priority. If you are playing on a Mac (with VWMare, Boot Camp, Parallels, etc.) it is a different key combo - I believe that it is CTRL + Window, but you have to hold control first.

You hold CTRL anytime that you want to maintain priority. Other examples include Dazing your own spell (to bounce a land or build Threshold) or cracking an LED in response to Infernal Tutor, etc.

[Rook1e]

Hi guys.

I haven't played my Miracles deck for a while, but i'm considering picking it up again.

I just have some questions:

How is Moat performing? Is it worth the investment?

I've been following Joe Lossett's streams for a while (on and off) and keep my list somewhat updated based on his list. But i would really like to find place to the 4th Swords to Plowshares

For reference, this is my list:

Land (23)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Enchantment (5)
4x Counterbalance
1x Rest in Peace

Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Flusterstorm
3x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (6)
2x Entreat the Angels
1x Supreme Verdict
3x Terminus

Creature (4)
3x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant

Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
2x Misdirection
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Terminus
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Wear / Tear

Feel free to come with suggestions :)

/Rook

So i decided to take my Miracles out for a spin at a small local Legacy tourney yesterday. And it (or me) failed miserably.

The only changes i made to the list was -1 Tundra +1 Mystic Gate.

I went 1-4 - and yes, my only victory was a bye -_-

First round i lost 0-2 to Merfolk.
Second round i lost 1-2 to Pox
Third round i lost 1-2 to T.E.S
Fourth round was the bye
Fifth round i lost 0-2 to UWR Delver/Stoneblade

I'm so frustrated with this deck, which also was the reason a put it aside for a couple of months or so. It just feels like that unless you get Top+Balance down early you are loosing and just curdling around and hoping to counter whatever threat they cast - and if you can't (either because you don't have any counters or they can counter back) you just flat-out lose :S

AAARGGHHH

[KZhang]

I think you have to hold left control to keep priority?


You have to hold CTRL the whole time you are using the top. Press CTRL and it allows you to keep priority. If you are playing on a Mac (with VWMare, Boot Camp, Parallels, etc.) it is a different key combo - I believe that it is CTRL + Window, but you have to hold control first.

You hold CTRL anytime that you want to maintain priority. Other examples include Dazing your own spell (to bounce a land or build Threshold) or cracking an LED in response to Infernal Tutor, etc.

Thanks guys! Works great!

[YamiJoey]

So i decided to take my Miracles out for a spin at a small local Legacy tourney yesterday. And it (or me) failed miserably.

The only changes i made to the list was -1 Tundra +1 Mystic Gate.

I went 1-4 - and yes, my only victory was a bye -_-

First round i lost 0-2 to Merfolk.
Second round i lost 1-2 to Pox
Third round i lost 1-2 to T.E.S
Fourth round was the bye
Fifth round i lost 0-2 to UWR Delver/Stoneblade

I'm so frustrated with this deck, which also was the reason a put it aside for a couple of months or so. It just feels like that unless you get Top+Balance down early you are loosing and just curdling around and hoping to counter whatever threat they cast - and if you can't (either because you don't have any counters or they can counter back) you just flat-out lose :S

AAARGGHHH

Miracles is a deck that - generally - if you're better than your opponent and they don't just nut draw you (Belcher/TES T1ing you, or a T1 Chalice into support) you should win your games. Merfolk should be a cake-walk, Pox isn't even a deck, and X-Blade is a joke.

You need to practise with the deck a lot more. I lost to a UWR Modern Control deck when I started playing the deck. A week later a T8'd my local Legacy event. (Not the greatest accomplishment. I cast a T4 Jace and passed without using its ability, then cast two 1-drop Spells into a Chalice on 1 AND STILL WON.) You need to work out the intricacies of the deck. What the top of your deck needs to look like, and what kinds of numbers you want on top for your CB against the various decks. It's as difficult to master as something like TES/ANT, if not harder, as the games will generally be long, so you'll have many more decisions to make that won't mean anything for many more turns.

[ivanpei]

Your list has too little bombs. You run too many 1 for 1s. I also dislike the maindeck cliques and venser. They're good against show and tell but bad against value mid range decks. I would advise playing 3 Snapcasters and an Elspeth instead. The single rip should be the 4th swords. Snapcasters generate actual card advantage compared to clique. Elspeth is just an additional bomb to increase the bomb count.

Think wafao-tapo style bomb density. Also this deck is one of the hardest to play in legacy. You have to remember everything on top of your library. It's difficult at first but can mean a win or loss. Snapcaster is also critical as extra brainstorms to stack your top of library expecially with miracles and counterbalance. Snapcaster is great as the elusive 2cc card that makes your counterbalance more effective.

Cliques are still good in the combo mu, but I'd put them in the board.

[supachai]

So i decided to take my Miracles out for a spin at a small local Legacy tourney yesterday. And it (or me) failed miserably.

The only changes i made to the list was -1 Tundra +1 Mystic Gate.

I went 1-4 - and yes, my only victory was a bye -_-

First round i lost 0-2 to Merfolk.
Second round i lost 1-2 to Pox
Third round i lost 1-2 to T.E.S
Fourth round was the bye
Fifth round i lost 0-2 to UWR Delver/Stoneblade

I'm so frustrated with this deck, which also was the reason a put it aside for a couple of months or so. It just feels like that unless you get Top+Balance down early you are loosing and just curdling around and hoping to counter whatever threat they cast - and if you can't (either because you don't have any counters or they can counter back) you just flat-out lose :S

AAARGGHHH

Your frustration is understandable. Miracles is NOT an easy deck to play. If you are inexperienced with the deck (which includes knowing your matchups, sideboarding, general gameplan), or if you are not playing as tight as possible, you will not do well. Miracles is a deck that has no free wins. You can't just play whatever you feel like in your hand and eventually hope to get there (unlike say, Sneak Show). Each turn has multiple lines of play that you must think carefully about. How will this affect your current turn? The next turn? The turn after that? Instead of just trying to counter everything, think about what actually needs to be countered (can you deal with it with something else? can you deal with it using cards that you draw eventually? can you let it resolve and live with the effects for a couple turns?). Miracles is a deck where a lot of small plays each give you a little value, and you have to make the most of them. Knowing when to Clique, when to Brainstorm, when to Top (and how to rearrange), when to fetch, when to play around Daze/Pierce, when to cast your Jace, etc. These all seem like small plays but they all add up and separate a good Miracles player from an average one.

That said, Merfolk is very hard matchup in my experience. Pox I don't have much experience with. Delver and TES should be very manageable though. If you gave some more specific reasons as to why you lost, perhaps we can help you out more. Lossett's deck is tried and true. You should certainly be able to do well with it. Perhaps the way the deck plays might not be suitable for your playstyle though, and that's understandable as well.

[YamiJoey]

Considering Joe Losett T8'd the Legacy Invi with 3/1 Clique/Venser, I'd have to disagree with ivanpei's post. The list looks mostly fine. Some choices I disagree with, but I wouldn't read too much into it, as it's just the way I play the deck. I generally assume my opponents can start paying for Spell Pierces, so I tend to not play many of them, and I almost never main them without Snapcaster Mage, but as I said it's also about how we play the deck.

Also I've never played against a Merfolk player, so if Supachai says it's a rough MU trust them over what I said.

[Goin Aggro]

Considering Joe Losett T8'd the Legacy Invi with 3/1 Clique/Venser, I'd have to disagree with ivanpei's post. The list looks mostly fine. Some choices I disagree with, but I wouldn't read too much into it, as it's just the way I play the deck. I generally assume my opponents can start paying for Spell Pierces, so I tend to not play many of them, and I almost never main them without Snapcaster Mage, but as I said it's also about how we play the deck.

Also I've never played against a Merfolk player, so if Supachai says it's a rough MU trust them over what I said.

Lossett is also probably one of the best miracles players in the world. He's finely tuned the deck to his playstyle and meta and knows how to use and abuse the one for ones.

When you're just picking up the deck, you probably want more brute advantage cards in the deck versus the playskill cards.

[YamiJoey]

Lossett is also probably one of the best miracles players in the world. He's finely tuned the deck to his playstyle and meta and knows how to use and abuse the one for ones.

When you're just picking up the deck, you probably want more brute advantage cards in the deck versus the playskill cards.

Whilst I agree, it comes down to the same thing as using Elvish Archdruid in Elves. The deck doesn't need it. Play better and you'll win with good builds, using crutches just makes you play badly because you can lean on certain cards.

That's how I've found it, anyway.

[Rook1e]

Let me just respond to some of the claims put forward:

First of all my familiarity with Miracles/Play skill:

Well, although i don't perceive myself as a fantastic magic player i have played my share of matches. I played Miracles for 4 months straight before putting it to the side for 2 months. I know i don't have Lossett-like skill with the deck, I still consider myself somewhat well rounded with the deck.

The list i played:

As some people mentioned, this is more or less the list Joe Lossett has tuned over several months, and though it probably could be tweaked a bit to match my meta better, it's a pretty solid list and should perform thereafter.

Heres very short description of my matches from thursday. It is not in any way thorough as i didn't take any notes or planned on giving a report. But here it goes:

First Round vs. Merfolk - 0-2

G1: It seems he just have it all, counters, lords, a vial and even a standstill. I never see a StP or Terminus - i'm crushed.
G2: I get stuck on to lands for the entire game, but manage to set up two consecutive Terminus - which he just overcomes and kills me.


Second Round vs. Pox - 1-2

G1: I manage to get out a Top and 2 Jace throughout the game, but didn't see any StP to take care of his Factories. Game goes on for some time and he finally grinds me out as i just find lands upon lands.
G2: I get out Balance+Top in T3 and finish him off with a 'Clique lock' (clique+karakas)
G3: He gets a T1 Liliana and +1 her, i needle it on my turn an manage to misdirect a LD spell. He's on 2 lands and a needle'ed Lily and i have Top+Balance - neither of us has any cards in hands. He then top decks his 1-off Tombstalker and rides it to victory - once again i never saw a StP or Terminus even though i Top'ed and fetched several times.

Third Round vs T.E.S 1-2

G1: He makes 16 Goblins on T1 on the play - i desperately try to find a terminus through 2 Brainstorms and 2 Fetches - none. I lose.
G2: I manage to counter his early plays and 'lock' him down with a Clique+Karakas.
G3: He makes 14 Goblins on T1 again. I have every counter imaginable - except Force. Didn't find a Terminus here either.

Fourth Round - Bye

Fifth Round vs. UWR Delver 0-2

Can really remember this match as I only stayed and played it out because of heavy rain outside. I manage to lose a both games even though my opponent makes several huge mistakes. I'm really bummed out because of the previous matches and doesn't have my head in the game - doesn't help I don't really se any action.


Here are my thoughts on the list:

Though i really like the main deck RIP, i'm not sure it is necessary and i'm considering dropping it for the 4th StP. I'm also considering going down to 3 Counterbalance and adding in the 4th FOW. What do you think of these changes?

The Supreme Verdict is going the be a Moat from next week - i'm very excited about this!

I've played with Snapcaster in Miracles before, and hated it. I'm liking the Clique/Venser build for now.


Did i forget to address anything or points?

[ivanpei]

Sounds like a ton of badluck. Bad days happen. By playing Cliques over snapcasters you are basically + Combo MU, - Mid Range MU. Neither one is better than the other, just depends on preference and meta. However like it was mentioned above, sometimes when you don't have the playskill to convert those 50/50 matchups into wins ala Reid Duke style, you have to skew your deck one way or the other.

In that meta you mentioned above, Snapcasters would have helped against Pox, Merfolk and Patriot as it is a value card. Against TES, since he T1ed you both times, neither Clique nor Snapcaster would have saved you anyway.

[YamiJoey]

I think Snap is a great all-round Creature. It makes your deck better against combo if you're packing Pierces and possibly 'Storm, against Aggro you can FB StP, or just Ambush Viper them with no value. I'd generally rather have a 2/1 Counterspell at 3 than a 3/1 not quite semi-Thoughtseize. The reason I play Clique these days is because I'm playing Moat.

[kiblast]

Snapcaster and Clique play a different role, not just in this deck but in any UWx control shell. You can't really compare them and they don't fight for the same slots. You need to understand first what you need most ( Clique disruption and clock or Snapcaster's redundancy) and choose wisely between the two /split ratio. The bodies are most of the time irrelevant, since they'll attract all of your opponents removals anyways so they won't stick that long. But hey, at least Clique kills Goose and Insectile Aberration. Also, once you established countertop Clique is an effective way to win the game.

I play 2 Snapcasters and 1 Clique and honestly this has been my ratio of choice in most of the UWx control decks I play. Sometimes I find Snapcasters clogging my hand when I play 3-4. Ideally I found myself wanting 2.5. Since I can't play 2.5 Snappies I'll stick with 2.

I have been testing one copy of Moat md and one additional copy of it in sb. I don't really get why you don't discuss more this card when it effectively shuts down entire decks on its own. BGx (Jund, BUG aggro etc..) quitted Pulses for Decays so it's virtually an answerable problem for them; unless they Liliana you. And even in that case they just wasted 5 turns ramping Lili and discarding value cards (whereas we discard nicely under Lili thanks to Top). Against Elves is the nail in the coffin once you Terminus their board position. Against Goblins they have 1 SGC or 1 Sharpshooter/ 1 Skirk Prospector shenanigan to play around it giving you all the time in the world to set up an Entreat for 1k Angels. Against DnT all you have to worry about is Flickerwisp + Equip as they don't play Serra Avenger anymore. Ok against Threshold you'd rather have Verdict since their threat density is extremely low (probably the only deck in the format together with patriot where you'd rather have Verdict instead of Moat), but if you manage to somehow resolve Moat all you have to do is deal with Delver. Another releveant thing is that it stops Merfolk (they don't play Coralhelm anymore) and the new Merfolk Nemesis.

If you decide to play Moat md, Clique is his best friend both because flies over it, and because you can play it eot clearing the way for Moat next turn.

[twndomn]

Against Goblins they have 1 SGC or 1 Sharpshooter/ 1 Skirk Prospector shenanigan to play around it giving you all the time in the world to set up an Entreat for 1k Angels. Against DnT all you have to worry about is Flickerwisp + Equip as they don't play Serra Avenger anymore. Ok against Threshold you'd rather have Verdict since their threat density is extremely low (probably the only deck in the format together with patriot where you'd rather have Verdict instead of Moat), but if you manage to somehow resolve Moat all you have to do is deal with Delver. Another releveant thing is that it stops Merfolk (they don't play Coralhelm anymore) and the new Merfolk Nemesis.
If you decide to play Moat md, Clique is his best friend both because flies over it, and because you can play it eot clearing the way for Moat next turn.

You are overly simplistic in those Vial deck match-ups. Against Vial decks in general, they'll try to waste your double W and Port your White source, that's something you omit, for whatever reasons. Even if you do manage to get to 4 Mana and slam down Moat, you have probably taken some damages already. In that case, Goblins just needs to Seige-gang and Pyrokinesis in the SB to finish you off. You also forget to mention Mangara + Karakas trick, which would remove your Moat forever. Merfolk is THE Vial deck that runs counter magic like FoW and Counterspell, it's not easy to just play your single copy of Moat and hope it'll resolve. Keep in mind a lot of those are off a Cavern or Vial, makes your counter useless.

[Aetherick]

You are overly simplistic in those Vial deck match-ups. Against Vial decks in general, they'll try to waste your double W and Port your White source, that's something you omit, for whatever reasons. Even if you do manage to get to 4 Mana and slam down Moat, you have probably taken some damages already. In that case, Goblins just needs to Seige-gang and Pyrokinesis in the SB to finish you off. You also forget to mention Mangara + Karakas trick, which would remove your Moat forever. Merfolk is THE Vial deck that runs counter magic like FoW and Counterspell, it's not easy to just play your single copy of Moat and hope it'll resolve. Keep in mind a lot of those are off a Cavern or Vial, makes your counter useless.

Good thing pyrokinesis can't hit players.

Just because something can be removed doesn't mean it's unplayable. The thing is, moat buys you a lot of time in any aggro or midrange strategy so you can safely find entreat and kill them, whereas a wrath might not be enough (especially in goblins). I don't play moat myself, but it definitely has merit.

Edit: spelling

[Einherjer]

Miracles is making a strong showing at both BoM and Eternal Weekend on the stream. All Versions were the legendary ones. No Snapcaster or RIP-one sighted yet.

Greetings

[Dzra]

Miracles is making a strong showing at both BoM and Eternal Weekend on the stream. All Versions were the legendary ones. No Snapcaster or RIP-one sighted yet.

Can you link to the deck lists? I have trouble navigating their website. <3 Also, is True-Name Nemesis making any sort of showing?

[Einherjer]

Neither decklists are online yet, but Nemesis made quite some impact on the tournament being held on Friday at BoM - the French Cup/Championship-something - I can hand you those decklists:

http://www.lotusnoir.info/bom-2013-decklists-top8-cdf-legacy/

Greetings

[Dzra]

Thanks and scary. The BUG list looks like it basically just took a BUG Delver list and jammed in some Nemesis. I think the SFM lists are pretty scary also. The Miracles list looks fairly standard. The Mountain in the SB is somewhat weird, but I've seen that now and again.

[Einherjer]

Yeah my most recent Miracles is also featuring it in the SB. Simply due to the fact, that you now want to bring in all REBs you got vs Tempo - which you can't do with Volcanic Islands only.

Greetings

[god_campbell]

So with all these true Name's out in force, I think it's time to finally invest in a moat for the sb.

[supachai]

First Round vs. Merfolk - 0-2

G1: It seems he just have it all, counters, lords, a vial and even a standstill. I never see a StP or Terminus - i'm crushed.
G2: I get stuck on to lands for the entire game, but manage to set up two consecutive Terminus - which he just overcomes and kills me.


Yeah, Merfolk is rough. They're the fastest blue aggro deck, which means they can counter our sweepers while applying lots of early pressure. I'm kinda worried if Merfolk has a resurgance. Moat and the like might become more mainstream.



Second Round vs. Pox - 1-2

G1: I manage to get out a Top and 2 Jace throughout the game, but didn't see any StP to take care of his Factories. Game goes on for some time and he finally grinds me out as i just find lands upon lands.
G2: I get out Balance+Top in T3 and finish him off with a 'Clique lock' (clique+karakas)
G3: He gets a T1 Liliana and +1 her, i needle it on my turn an manage to misdirect a LD spell. He's on 2 lands and a needle'ed Lily and i have Top+Balance - neither of us has any cards in hands. He then top decks his 1-off Tombstalker and rides it to victory - once again i never saw a StP or Terminus even though i Top'ed and fetched several times.


G1, it sounds like you might have played your Jaces out too early. If they already have factory in play, I would not play my Jace without a way to protect it, either through removal or Clique. Just take the Factory beats for a while until you have a better plan. If they have tons of discard, I think we play much better than them off the top of the deck. But getting flooded is just bad luck (which is why I like 22 land + Ponder).
G3 Turn 1 Liliana is ROUGH. Lucky you had the Needle. Not seeing one of your 8-9 removal spells, or any Venser, Jace, Clique, or even Entreat seems like just really bad luck. Tombstalker should be not a huge problem for us.



Third Round vs T.E.S 1-2

G1: He makes 16 Goblins on T1 on the play - i desperately try to find a terminus through 2 Brainstorms and 2 Fetches - none. I lose.
G2: I manage to counter his early plays and 'lock' him down with a Clique+Karakas.
G3: He makes 14 Goblins on T1 again. I have every counter imaginable - except Force. Didn't find a Terminus here either.


I'm surprised TES went off turn 1 post board. Usually combo decks slow down after game 1. Not sure what your hand was, but you might have to mulligan more aggressively.




Fifth Round vs. UWR Delver 0-2

Can really remember this match as I only stayed and played it out because of heavy rain outside. I manage to lose a both games even though my opponent makes several huge mistakes. I'm really bummed out because of the previous matches and doesn't have my head in the game - doesn't help I don't really se any action.

Here are my thoughts on the list:

Though i really like the main deck RIP, i'm not sure it is necessary and i'm considering dropping it for the 4th StP. I'm also considering going down to 3 Counterbalance and adding in the 4th FOW. What do you think of these changes?

The Supreme Verdict is going the be a Moat from next week - i'm very excited about this!

I've played with Snapcaster in Miracles before, and hated it. I'm liking the Clique/Venser build for now.


Did i forget to address anything or points?

I don't like the maindeck Rest in Peace either. Against too many matchups it's just dead. 4th STP and Moat are all solid choices. I think 8 Counterspells MD is the correct number, split that how you want between Force, Pierce, CS, Misdirection, and Flusterstorm. I wouldn't cut the Counterbalance for it though. If you find you're having a rough time against combo, I'd cut a Misdirection for a Force.

I think Snapcaster is fine in Miracles, but the problem is Rest in Peace. It's such a good card in the Jund/Shardless/RUG matchups that just generates too much bad synergy with Snaps.

Anyways, sounds like you've gained some experience and have a plan to improve. Good luck!

[UB Control]

Hi All!
It is so good to read your threads every day. I play Legacy everyday on cocatrice (ubcontrol) and in real life as much as I can. My choice is 2/2 between the Snapcasters and Cliques because of my meta is discard and creature heavy. I run Venser in the SB. I finished 3rd with the Moat version in our monthly „national” event the so called Legacy League. This days I prefer the 1 Supreme Verdict and the 4th CB main deck instead of the Moat and the second Ponder. Before that those slots were for 2 Spell Snares.

The BoM list is very interesting. Can someone analyse this list? I have some ideas and questions about it:
23 land +1 in the sideboard. Because of Wasteland and Port and the 3rd Entreat not to miss any landrop.
10 Fetches to find easier what you need and get read of what is unnecessary with the Tops and Brainstorms.
3MD Entreat to win fast and stop attacking creatures.
No Misdirection. How do you stop discard spells?
3 Swords. Because of you use rather mass removals 4 MD 3 SB.
Only one Flusterstorm and no Canonist in the SB. I think storm is a bad match up. The 4 CB stops combo efficiently?

What do you think the player would have changed after the event?


Thank you!

[ivanpei]

Storm should be easier than show and tell because even a blind counterbalance is a beating. Against storm, you might want to Spell Pierce cantrips for value early in the game. Once their cabals hit threshold, spell pierces don't do much. Generally I'm not a fan of supreme verdict. It generates a clog at the 4cc slot. I think a full set of terminus, supplemented by some Snapcasters for swords as value is sufficient. For those who don't run Snapcaster, supreme verdict seems ok.

I think moat is great as a 1 off in the board or main. Anything more makes it quite clunky. But if it hits, it can take over the game. I have the 3rd entreat and a moat in the board for the gobs matchup. Imo with all this TNN hype, Miracles is very well positioned right now.

[Dzra]

23 land +1 in the sideboard. Because of Wasteland and Port and the 3rd Entreat not to miss any landrop.

The Mountain is for bringing in REBs/Pyroclasms against Wasteland/Port decks. I haven't found it necessary, but you'll see it occasionally. Why 23 MD even with a land in the SB? My guess is that he just didn't want to drop below 23 land ever.


10 Fetches to find easier what you need and get read of what is unnecessary with the Tops and Brainstorms.

I prefer 10 fetches: 4 Flooded, 4 Blue, 2 Arid.


3MD Entreat to win fast and stop attacking creatures.

Possibly a meta choice. Most lists are running 3 Entreat between the 75. I'd guess that running 3 MD might mean he was more worried about GBx midranged decks than combo.


No Misdirection. How do you stop discard spells?

You don't. Just resolve Top and you hand doesn't matter so much.


3 Swords. Because of you use rather mass removals 4 MD 3 SB.

This one is out of Lossett's playbook. I'd rather see 4/4 than 3/4, but more sweepers is definitely better against Nemesis.


Only one Flusterstorm and no Canonist in the SB. I think storm is a bad match up. The 4 CB stops combo efficiently?

I prefer Canonist over Flusterstorm, especially since he isn't running Snapcaster. Combo is never a bad MU, but the faster ones always have those quick "getcha" hands that can sometimes minimize your interaction.


What do you think the player would have changed after the event?

I wonder how they liked the 2 Pyroclasms in the SB. I've warmed up to Pyroclasm more and more over the last month, but it gets a lot worse if you're staring down a True-Name Nemesis.

Also, here's some decklists from Eternal Weekend: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/eternal13/legacy#6a

[Shaka1333]

I'm the one who finished 2nd in the French Legacy National on Friday and ended up 12th at the main event. I was 10-0 and i needed to make 2-3 in the last 5 rounds but i couldn't manage it... I lost 2 win-and-in matches in a row... so even if it was a great weekend, i'm still very disapointed right now. I guess i will try to make a report during the week though.

[supachai]

I'm the one who finished 2nd in the French Legacy National on Friday and ended up 12th at the main event. I was 10-0 and i needed to make 2-3 in the last 5 rounds but i couldn't manage it... I lost 2 win-and-in matches in a row... so even if it was a great weekend, i'm still very disapointed right now. I guess i will try to make a report during the week though.

Congrats! I was watching some of your games on the stream and definitely rooting for you to make top 8. Tough loss against Thomas E in the last round. I feel like you could have won game 2 against him though. Anyway, amazing job regardless, 12th is nothing to scoff at. I can't wait for a report.

[dsck]

I'm the one who finished 2nd in the French Legacy National on Friday and ended up 12th at the main event. I was 10-0 and i needed to make 2-3 in the last 5 rounds but i couldn't manage it... I lost 2 win-and-in matches in a row... so even if it was a great weekend, i'm still very disapointed right now. I guess i will try to make a report during the week though.

Well done though, 12th out of 700 ;) I'd definitely want to read your report!

[Shaka1333]

Thank you !

Yeah, i made a few bad decisions in our match ... that's why i'm even more disapointed.

[Qtc]

Miracles is making a strong showing at both BoM and Eternal Weekend on the stream. All Versions were the legendary ones. No Snapcaster or RIP-one sighted yet.

Greetings

Here's a RIP list:

Paul Lynch
Eternal Championships
8th
365 players

Creature [1]
1 Vendilion Clique

Instant [16]
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery [5]
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus

Artifact [6]
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vedalken Shackles

Enchantment [7]
3 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
1 Energy Field
2 Rest in Peace

Land [22]
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystic Gate
2 Plains
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Planeswalker [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace

[UB Control]

Thank you for the answers ipanpei and Dzra. Congrats Shaka1333!
Yesterday after you posted the link I played all day long the BoM list online. Although it has only 4 cards difference in MD and 3 cards in SB to my Snapcaster list, it claims a significantly different way to play! By now I couldn’t figure it out the proper way but I recognize the power in this built.

[kiblast]

First of all sorry for the late reply but lately I'm having problems with my laptop's keyboard.


You are overly simplistic in those Vial deck match-ups. Against Vial decks in general, they'll try to waste your double W and Port your White source, that's something you omit, for whatever reasons..

I omit that because we all are well aware of the denial plan of vial decks. But do we seriously fear 4 Wastelands and 4 Ports.decks with Miracles? I don't. It's not that hard to hit UUWW turn 4-5 in a deck packing 4 Tops 4 Brainstorms 2 Ponders,and 22 lands of which 9-10 are fetchlands and 5-6 are basics. Seriously just not cracking fetchlands most of the times is enough. Also playing filter lands helps a lot. I fear the Stifle + Wasteland plan much more (and in fact as I wrote above I don't really think about Moat during any tempo matchup).


Even if you do manage to get to 4 Mana and slam down Moat, you have probably taken some damages already. In that case, Goblins just needs to Seige-gang and Pyrokinesis in the SB to finish you off. You also forget to mention Mangara + Karakas trick, which would remove your Moat forever. Merfolk is THE Vial deck that runs counter magic like FoW and Counterspell, it's not easy to just play your single copy of Moat and hope it'll resolve. Keep in mind a lot of those are off a Cavern or Vial, makes your counter useless.

I mentioned SGC already, and that's Goblins only out to Moat (together with Krenko+ Sharpshooter+skirk prospector blowouts).

I ''forgot'' to mention Mangara + Karakas+ Vial because if they menage to assemble it and you don't have answers to it, Moat will be the last of your problems, you lost already if you don't find entreat or swords immediately. If they assemble it later, fine, your Moat served you well buying time and stalling the board.

Merfolk is THE vial deck? I highly doubt so, Goblin and DnT are miles ahead. Also Merfolk never ran Counterspell.
I'm not RELYING on Moat. Dunno where you read that. If I wanted to rely on Moat I'd complete my playset and play Dutch Stax.All I'm saying is that Moat is fucking good VS lots of decks, and you could try one maindeck as an additional tool vs ground beaters, as if it shows up randomly either wins games, or buys enough time to eventually find a Terminus, an Entreat or a Jace.

[zerzab11]

@ Shaka: Congrats to your results.

I played straight UW Miracles at BoM and liked it very much:

Friday: 5 : 1 : 1

Saturday: 6 : 1 : 2 (I drew the Win-and-In and scooped to my favoured opponent; only loss against the eventual winner Julian Knab)

3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Daze
2 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm

3 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
1 Vendilion Clique

1 Back to Basics
1 Moat
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Rest in Peace

2 Tundra
3 Plains
7 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 Detention Sphere
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Sword to Plowshares

If I would have managed to play a bit faster I could have won 2 of my 3 draws (one with lethal on the board). Back to Basics was awesome all weekend, punishing all those greedy decks. Might write a report if I find the time.

Greetings

[alphastryk]

Yeah my most recent Miracles is also featuring it in the SB. Simply due to the fact, that you now want to bring in all REBs you got vs Tempo - which you can't do with Volcanic Islands only.
Greetings

Yeah, I've been doing that already but I've been pretty happy with 'cheating' and mainboarding the basic mountain over the second volcanic for a while now. It can hurt you sometimes but it's worth having and I'd rather have the extra sideboard space.



...
No Misdirection. How do you stop discard spells?
...

Typically you don't, because you don't need to against fair decks. You have top and a better lategame, just don't die before it comes online. I've never liked misdirection or wanted it after I tried it a few times.


I went 6-3 (54th) in Legacy Champs at Eternal Weekend with my RiP-Helm list, and saw a ton of other miracles near the top tables all day.

The list:


4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor

2 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
1 Energy Field
1 Counterspell

1 Vendilion Clique
1 Detention Sphere
2 Entreat the Angels

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Force of Will

3 Terminus

5 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island


Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Flusterstorm
1 Wear // Tear
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
1 Celestial Purge


Quick partial round summary since I didn't take enough notes and was very tired on Saturday

Rd 1 - Jund (0-2)

Not a good way to start the day - lost two close games to lethal damage when I had the kill the next turn, one to a topdecked punishing fire. He played around blood moon by fetching basics in game one so I didn't board it in.

Rd 2 - TES (2-0)

Game 1 he made ten goblins after I played a top, and I was able to dig to a terminus and follow it up with a counterbalance. Once I found a threat he conceded.

Game 2 I kept a no-force hand with tutor and meddling mage, and he didn't have the turn 1. He cantripped and passed, and I tutored for cannonist to go with my meddling mage in my opener. Played cannonist, then mage on Abrupt Decay to keep cannonist around. Those two went the distance, and he showed me after the match he had only one chain of vapor to get out of the lock.

After that most of the rounds are a blur, but I know I lost to deathblade and the true mirror, beating legendary miracles, reanimator, pox, and MUD (unfortunately this was one of our group that came from Atlanta). I also never had a match go to 3 games, and both CB mirrors finished with more than 20 minutes on the clock. :)

I wasn't able to find Unexpectedly Absent before the event unfortunately, or the Celestial Purge in the board would have been swapped out. I haven't had a chance to test the new card that much but I heard from other Miracles players there that it was very good.

The 3rd entreat in the board was way better than I've been giving it credit for, and I'm happy to have that be my extra threat now over Elspeth / Batterskull / etc. Mystic Gate was never relevant, Karakas was good, and mountain never caused any issues.

[ziggy_stardust]

Alpha, we may have seen each other (not as opponents, but sat next to each other, as I sat next to my fair share of Miracle-brothers), as I finished 7-2, good for 14th. Also, regarding the basic mountain, I used to think the same way as you for the tempo decks, but the real trick is to just not fetch the volc until you need it. Granted, I also play the legenfary build, so my Karakases draw a lot of the Wastelands' attention.

My maindeck was the same as Joe's list -1 Mystic Gate, +1 Unexpectedly Absent (I did not cut the land for the spell; I've just preferred to play a slightly greedier version than him and run one fewer land and typically have 1-2 rotating flex spots that deviate from his exact list). Sideboard has more differences from Joe's list, but I think it's MOSTLY the same. It's a bummer that my only two losses were to friends, one of which was on elves, which is supposed to be a 90/10 (at least that's how it feels, to me) matchup in my favor. I guess it makes up for me somehow winning my unwinnable matchup of 12-post; it actually should have been SUPER unwinnable since I chose to leave my Blood Moons at home. The other friend I lost to was a bit more acceptable, as he was playing a Lejay-esque Shardless BUG (4 Lilianas) with True-Name Nemesis. (Side note: he actually won the only grinder with that deck, the night before). Unexpectedly Absent did a lot of work on Liliana, but proved too hard to cast in game three, when he was able to stick her on turn two, and followed up with back to back Wastelands to pretty much lock me out of the game. I jokingly asked if he was ready to make some piles when he had a Lily at 8 and my board was basic island. I'll probably get a full report up on Hipsters of the Coast for my piece for this week, but it won't be published until Thursday.

[kaosjr]

Hey guys I went 7-1-1 at eternal weekend. I got 9th by a fraction of a percent, sadly. I was on camera twice if ggslive has the videos yet. Moat was MVP, winning 6-8 games by itself. Going forward I may try to find room for an E tutor in the board. Searches for moat, rip, top, CB, even the scullers. Here is the list:

Creatures:4
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Spells:33
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Rest in Peace
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat
3 Force of Will
3 Terminus

Lands:23
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Celestial Purge
1 Disenchant
1 Rest in Peace
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Humility
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

[Poron]

How do we deal with Omni Tell?
apart from counter wars and Counterbalance I mean.

If we can't get a CB online we're in trouble I'm afraid.. may be some Ethersworn Canonist in SB for Storm and OmniTell?

[BlackStarDeceiver]

How do we deal with Omni Tell?
apart from counter wars and Counterbalance I mean.

If we can't get a CB online we're in trouble I'm afraid.. may be some Ethersworn Canonist in SB for Storm and OmniTell?

Venser and Clique are both pretty good actually :) Or splash black and play Notion Thief if you are not liking REB's

[Poron]

against deck like ours they're definitly playing Defense Grid.

I'm not sure Instants are the answear in that matchup.
They play Gitaxian Probe to count our counters (and more counters than us by default), Defense Grid and once Omniscience hits field they can win Instant speed.

an example:
1) Show and Tell
2) Omniscience (we play Vendilion or Venser here)
3) They put the triggered ability of Vendilion/Venser on the stack
4) Cunning Wish (for free) for Firemind's Foresight
5) Search for: Cunning Wish, Trickbind, Anything
6) Cast, for free, Trickbind on Clique/Venser/Detention Sphere/Oblivion Ring

Counterbalance (alongside with pure counters) is our only card in that matchup, but since they play Defense Grid.. I'm afraid CB is the only solid answear

[alphastryk]

Alpha, we may have seen each other (not as opponents, but sat next to each other, as I sat next to my fair share of Miracle-brothers), as I finished 7-2, good for 14th. Also, regarding the basic mountain, I used to think the same way as you for the tempo decks, but the real trick is to just not fetch the volc until you need it. Granted, I also play the legenfary build, so my Karakases draw a lot of the Wastelands' attention...

Probably did see each other. I was wearing an Atlanta Braves hat and mostly play German / Korean foils if that helps. :)

I also have Pyroclasms in my board, so I can't afford to just fetch my red source when I need it, I need it to stick around.


Hey guys I went 7-1-1 at eternal weekend. I got 9th by a fraction of a percent, sadly. I was on camera twice if ggslive has the videos yet. Moat was MVP, winning 6-8 games by itself. Going forward I may try to find room for an E tutor in the board. Searches for moat, rip, top, CB, even the scullers. ...

Congrats on the finish, sorry you just missed. What's the thought process with playing Scullers over Meddling Mage / Cannonist, and was it really worth splashing and adding another nonbasic?


How do we deal with Omni Tell?
apart from counter wars and Counterbalance I mean.

If we can't get a CB online we're in trouble I'm afraid.. may be some Ethersworn Canonist in SB for Storm and OmniTell?

Seriously? I feel like this matchup is a joke. Counterbalance is only ok, but hatebears are excellent, especially cannonist & meddling mage. I've never lost this matchup. If you have E Tutor, you should never leave home without at least a cannonist in the board.

[Poron]

As I said, so this deck needs Canonist and/or Meddling Mage to deal with it.

If Omni Show gets popular we'll need to accord our SB. It's rather rare to see those 2 cards in Miracle lists actually

[BlackStarDeceiver]

I think you are overexaggerating a bit. I do like Canonist, especially coupled with some cheap countermagic and he is fine for SNT and to counter the following ones while clocking them.

The chances for the Omnitellplayer to have SnT Omniscience and Cunning Wish are not small, by no means, but usually you do have some countermagic along Clique/Venser and Cb/Top which should be enough for Game 1 at least. Most lists i see do not play the Trickbind maindeck.

After board you do have 3 Cliques/2 Venser and additional Flusterstorms + Blasts with CB and Pierce already there. It's one of our better matchups i think.

[ziggy_stardust]

Probably did see each other. I was wearing an Atlanta Braves hat and mostly play German / Korean foils if that helps. :)

I also have Pyroclasms in my board, so I can't afford to just fetch my red source when I need it, I need it to stick around.


Fair point on the need to cast multiple sorcery speed spells.

Yeah, based on your description, I'm pretty sure sat next to you at some point in the day, maybe more than once. I was the dude in the white button-down shirt with lip piercings.

[twndomn]

against deck like ours they're definitly playing Defense Grid.

I'm not sure Instants are the answear in that matchup.
They play Gitaxian Probe to count our counters (and more counters than us by default), Defense Grid and once Omniscience hits field they can win Instant speed.

Counterbalance (alongside with pure counters) is our only card in that matchup, but since they play Defense Grid.. I'm afraid CB is the only solid answear

I like Canonist a lot, but that's not the key to victory. If you watch Oarsman's stream, there're games where he defeated Omni-tell, even with Grid on the board, I wish I could tell you the date of his recording. Basically, Enter the Infinite and Cunning Wish are enemies number one. Yes, based on my testing and watching his stream, it's possible to win even if they resolve Omniscience or Dream halls.

[Dzra]

I also have Pyroclasms in my board, so I can't afford to just fetch my red source when I need it, I need it to stick around.

Do you bring in Pyroclasms against RUG? I've tried that a few times and have been mostly disappointed.


Seriously? I feel like this matchup is a joke. Counterbalance is only ok, but hatebears are excellent, especially cannonist & meddling mage. I've never lost this matchup. If you have E Tutor, you should never leave home without at least a cannonist in the board.

I don't know that it's a joke exactly, but I feel like it is a lot easier than Sneak Attack for us. Sneak Attack has more defensive counters with Spell Pierce and now Swan Song. I suppose Omnitell could pack those as well, but they tend to run Pacts instead. Because of this, we can be aggressive casting Counterbalance against Omnitell and can usually expect it to resolve. I wouldn't rely on counter magic because of Defense Grid and their Pacts, but Counterbalance and Canonist are usually enough to get the job done.

[alphastryk]

Do you bring in Pyroclasms against RUG? I've tried that a few times and have been mostly disappointed.



I don't know that it's a joke exactly, but I feel like it is a lot easier than Sneak Attack for us. Sneak Attack has more defensive counters with Spell Pierce and now Swan Song. I suppose Omnitell could pack those as well, but they tend to run Pacts instead. Because of this, we can be aggressive casting Counterbalance against Omnitell and can usually expect it to resolve. I wouldn't rely on counter magic because of Defense Grid and their Pacts, but Counterbalance and Canonist are usually enough to get the job done.

I definitely bring them in vs Canadian, and I've been happy doing so. I want to have as much or more removal than they do men so that I can spend most of my time ensuring land drops and just wipe the men when possible. RiP makes it easy to kill goyfs and mongooses with pyroclasm, but I'm usually happy to even trade 1-for-1 with a delver.

Yeah, I may have overstated it, and keep in mind my impressions will reflect that I play Meddling Mage, which I cannot recommend enough. Still, the matchup is definitely favorable, as with the majority of combo decks.

[Megadeus]

Hey guys I went 7-1-1 at eternal weekend. I got 9th by a fraction of a percent, sadly. I was on camera twice if ggslive has the videos yet. Moat was MVP, winning 6-8 games by itself. Going forward I may try to find room for an E tutor in the board. Searches for moat, rip, top, CB, even the scullers. Here is the list:

I watched you on cam. Good good stuff. Man Moat is ridiculous. Watched you vs RUG. People on chat are like, "Why is he keeping in Moat vs RUG? 4 mana gets spell pierced and dazed" Me: "because resolved Moat is GG you idiots"

[kaosjr]

Congrats on the finish, sorry you just missed. What's the thought process with playing Scullers over Meddling Mage / Cannonist, and was it really worth splashing and adding another nonbasic?

The underground sea is replacing a mystic gate, so it's the same amount of basics. Scullers don't get REBd which is a big plus. Also, against miracle players opponents will often main phase brainstorms and fetch to cast additional cantrips before turn 3 (clique) so we can punish them on turn 2 with a sculler. Since sneak and show is becoming increasingly popular (again) being able to disrupt their hand instead of "guess" with meddling Mage is pretty strong. Siding it in against other decks is pretty strong too attacking their threats in the hand. (Mirror, elves, etc)

[Cipher]

Moat was very impressive. What do you guys think of Humility, though (budget reasons). I cut it from my list before trying because I figured the 1/1s would kill me/Jace just the same. It seemed like more of a harassment card than a lock.

[twndomn]

Moat was very impressive. What do you guys think of Humility, though (budget reasons). I cut it from my list before trying because I figured the 1/1s would kill me/Jace just the same. It seemed like more of a harassment card than a lock.

Humility makes more sense for Rip-EF combo build. Moat has better synergy with Angel tokens.

[Mackan]

I was pretty happy about my performance at BOM last weekend. I had 2 SFM 1 Batterskull in my sideboard and I really liked it. Before the tournament I realized more cards were needed to beat jund/aggro/shardless but also realized that more reactive cards was not ideal. Removal in general, especially narrow removal, can't deal with Liliana of the veil, gaddock teeg or Truename Nemesis. SFM is very neat as most people will remove all their spotremoval postboard and it can reign free. I won several games with it, either with the germ or equipping one of my flash-creatures (or angel!). It's also pretty good versus combo and in the mirror. It's almost as it should be maindeck but it's worse there because of said removal.

[ziggy_stardust]

Moat was very impressive. What do you guys think of Humility, though (budget reasons). I cut it from my list before trying because I figured the 1/1s would kill me/Jace just the same. It seemed like more of a harassment card than a lock.

I died to an army of 1/1s in an elves matchup at the Legacy Championship because I ran Humility over Moat.. can't really blame the Humility for that one, though.. sometimes two fetches and a top can't find one of your four copies of terminus :(

I do like that Humility shuts down Sneak and Show, unlike sphere/ring where they can still draw a million cards with the trigger on the stack and just set themself up to go off again

[TheArchitect]

Humility and Moat do completely different things and are good against completely different decks/strategies. You cant use one because you don't have the other.

[Dzra]

Humility and Moat do completely different things and are good against completely different decks/strategies. You cant use one because you don't have the other.

I pretty much agree with this. I think Moat is likely much better against the fair decks. If you are going to compare Humility to something, I think it should be Pithing Needle. I think of them both as being primarily Sneak and Show hate with some upside in various other matchups.


I died to an army of 1/1s in an elves matchup at the Legacy Championship because I ran Humility over Moat..

Sorry to hear, although humorously enough I was on the other end of a similar situation last night. For some reason, a Mighty Quinn player decided to leave in Humility against me and ended up losing to a bunch of 1/1's consisting of Clique, Snapcaster, and a few Angels.

[thefreakaccident]

I died to an army of 1/1s in an elves matchup at the Legacy Championship because I ran Humility over Moat.. can't really blame the Humility for that one, though.. sometimes two fetches and a top can't find one of your four copies of terminus :(


Sometimes? Try most of the time. If you are dying to armies of 1/1s, you need more redundancy in your mass removal somewhere in the 75.

[Poron]

Pyroclasm guys. 50% of the time it's better than Terminus

[ziggy_stardust]

Here's my recap of the event, guys.

http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2013/11/hope-eternal-legacy-championships-14th/

And as for 'clasm, I've toyed with the idea before, but I feel like it's a bit of overkill with four terminus, verdict, and explosives already in the 75. Granted none of those deal with Teeg, but I have outs to him in Plow, Venser, double Karakas, and, if they're dumb, clique ambush.

[UB Control]

Here's my recap of the event, guys.

http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2013/11/hope-eternal-legacy-championships-14th/



Great article, congrats!

[Poron]

I prefer a red-heavier build. With Pyroclasm, Blood Moon and REBs

I don't run either EE nor SV

[alphastryk]

The underground sea is replacing a mystic gate, so it's the same amount of basics. Scullers don't get REBd which is a big plus. Also, against miracle players opponents will often main phase brainstorms and fetch to cast additional cantrips before turn 3 (clique) so we can punish them on turn 2 with a sculler. Since sneak and show is becoming increasingly popular (again) being able to disrupt their hand instead of "guess" with meddling Mage is pretty strong. Siding it in against other decks is pretty strong too attacking their threats in the hand. (Mirror, elves, etc)

Ok, that makes some sense, I just trust my ability with the mage a lot I guess. What decks are you bringing them in vs where REB is a concern? The mirror and sneak?


Humility and Moat do completely different things and are good against completely different decks/strategies. You cant use one because you don't have the other.

Yep, Humility is hate for monsters, moat is hate for small men.

[ziggy_stardust]

Yep, Humility is hate for monsters, moat is hate for small men.While I agree, to an extent, with this assessment, Humility is reasonable against small men if said small men have abnoxious abilities (e.g. lords, symbiote, pridemage, ringleader, every creature in d&t, etc.)

[twndomn]

Yep, Humility is hate for monsters, moat is hate for small men.

If you can't find your mass removal, then you have to waste an Entreat to trade these 1/1 with your 1/1 angel tokens. This anti-synergy alone is enough to reconsider Humility. Of course, if you are going for RiP + EF + Helm build, then it's probably ok.

[lambert101]

@Einherjer

I posted this under your tournament thread but also wanted to post it here for more ideas.

Out of curiosity what where your boarding plans? Do you take out a majority of counterspells against BG/X decks? No love for blood moon? I am helping a friend with this deck and I have the same main you played at Ovino8 except

-1 tundra
- 3 Polluted Delta
- 1 E.E.
+ 4 Scalding Tarn
+ 1 Terminus

My current board with this 2 snap/2 clique/1 ponder list is:

3 RIP
3 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Wear//Tear
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Boarding Ideas:

vs. BG/X (jund, junk, mav)
- 4 Force
- 3 Pierce
- 2 Counterspells

+ 2 Blood Moon
+ 1 Supreme Veridct
+ 1 Terminus
+ 2 Wear//Tear
+ 3 RIP

vs. DnT
- 1 Force
- 3 Pierce
- 2 Counterspells

+ 2 Blood Moon
+ 1 Supreme Veridct
+ 1 Entreat the Angels
+ 2 Wear//Tear

vs. Combo (Storm)
- 4 StP
- 1 Verdict

3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm

vs. Combo (sneak Attack)
- 4 StP
- 1 Supreme Verdict
- 3 Terminus ? (not sure here)


+3 Pyroblast
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Wear//Tear
+1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Vs. Control (stoneblade, miracles, Rug control)
- 4 Force of Will
- 4 StP


+3 Pyroblast
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Wear//Tear
+1 Venser, Shaper Savant


Vs Temp (GRIXIS/RUG/UR)
- 4 Force

+ 3 RIP
+ 1 Blood Moon

Vs. UWR TEMPO
- 4 Force
+ 2 Wear//Tear
+ 2 Pyroblast

Please note that these boarding ideas are to help a friend get ready for GP DC. All comments and suggestions are welcomed.

[Einherjer]

Thanks lambert, first I'll comment your boardingplans, after that I'll show you my latest list and explain why I like it more :)

"
vs. BG/X (jund, junk, mav)
- 4 Force
- 3 Pierce
- 2 Counterspells

+ 2 Blood Moon
+ 1 Supreme Veridct
+ 1 Terminus
+ 2 Wear//Tear
+ 3 RIP
"
You really have to be sure Wear//Tear is going to do SOMETHING. Against Mav and Junk I'd bring it in - prolly not vs Jund. Additionally I wouldn't bring in all Rest in Peaces against decks like Maverick - Snapcaster into Swords is superior here. Counterspell is huge vs Maverick as they bring in bombs like Elspeth+Garruk alongside Choke and stuff.

"
vs. DnT
- 1 Force
- 3 Pierce
- 2 Counterspells

+ 2 Blood Moon
+ 1 Supreme Veridct
+ 1 Entreat the Angels
+ 2 Wear//Tear
"

OtP you want to keep in your Spell Pierces in oder to counter Aether Vial and Cataclysm. OtD I feel like I am forced to keep all my Force of Wills in - for this said reason. I don't think that you want Blood Moon here.


"
vs. Combo (Storm)
- 4 StP
- 1 Verdict

3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
"
Rest in Peace is good here too as it shrinks their Cabal Rituals and disables them from PiFing you.

"Vs. Control (stoneblade, miracles, Rug control)
- 4 Force of Will
- 4 StP


+3 Pyroblast
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Wear//Tear
+1 Venser, Shaper Savant
"
You probably can't say it just like that. Against Miracles you don't need any removal. Against Stoneblade you need the Swords. Against RUG Control....well that depends on what you see. You might want Blood Moon too, depending on the manabases you see.

"
Vs Temp (GRIXIS/RUG/UR)
- 4 Force

+ 3 RIP
+ 1 Blood Moon

Vs. UWR TEMPO
- 4 Force
+ 2 Wear//Tear
+ 2 Pyroblast
"
You don't want RIP against UR/URB - as they don't use it at all. Additionally you will probably want your Flusterstorms, REBs and Blood Moons - depends on the MU again.


So, to my new list...

4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Entreat the Angels
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ponder
1 Karakas
3 Scalding Tarn
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Mountain

I'd really advise your friend to Play this list as it seems superior to my Ovino one- concerning we now have to beat Nemesis.
What has changed? Well, for the first part we cannot play Pyroclasm any more. It was a very good card but has been made just outright bad due to Nemesis. Meaning we have to play more different massremoval, more Verdict for me. Why am I playing the Mountain now? Well for now I think you really want to bring in 3-5 REBs against various Tempodecks that could pack Nemesis. You just can't play 4 Volcanic so we got a Mountain in the Sideboard. The rest stayed pretty the same.

If you have any questions just shoot them at me. Concerning the boardingplans I think it'd be the best if you and your friend went through the important MUs (Miracles, Esper, Shardless, Canadian, Patriot, ANT and Show and Tell... (+ some I forgot now^^) ) on your own and come at me with your boardingplans - via PM or here - and I'll give my best to "correct" them based on my opinion. But be assured that I am making mistakes too, in both - deckbuilding and play - so take everything I (or everybody esle) say(s) with a grain of salt :)


Greetings

[Dzra]

Went a somewhat disappointing 6-3 at SCG Dallas. I started out fairly horribly, but managed to claw back into the money. The first two matches, I had to mull to 5 in both game twos looking for hands with more than one land. It's possible that I should have kept some of them and just hoped to get there, but I feel like I had better 6's. I ended up losing to Punishing Maverick, Burn, and UB Tezzerat. I think they are fair to good matchups, but a combination of bad draws and likely some non-optimal play were involved.

Maverick was unfortunate as I was stuck under Teeg both games. I possibly misplayed g2 when I ran out a Karakas as my second land drop because I wanted to keep Volcanic back for potential Pyroclasms that I could draw. He wastes Karakas then plays Teeg. The following turn he plays Sylvan Safekeeper and I never see Pyroclasm. Swords and Venser EoT don't get the job done as he happily sacs two land and I die with Supreme Verdict in hand.

Perhaps I should have left in more FoW against UB Tezzerat as g3 the guy t2 plays Jace, I pierce, he FoWs, then I proceed to lose to Jace plus his t3 Tezzerat. I find Entreat one turn too late to matter and can't stop Jace's ultimate.

I beat Mono White Weird RIP Helm.dec, High Tide, Tin Fins, Omnitell, ANT, and Lands. Overall I still like how the deck performed (when it got a chance to) and I'm really happy that I didn't get any draws as I've been working pretty hard on speeding up my play (as well as encouraging my opponents to play faster). Ideally, the two GP buys will be enough to clear past the random jank and I'll proceed to enter Combo Winter. :)

[UB Control]

What do you think about playing Runed Halo in the sideboard because of TNN?

On this weekend I plan to bring a pure UW deck to my local Legacy event inspired by the above mentioned lists in this thread:

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Back to Basics
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Terminus
3 Entreat the Angels

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
5 Island
3 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Mystic Gate

Sideboard (15)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
2 Rest in Peace
1 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Disenchant
1 Detention Sphere
1 Runed Halo

Back to Basics seems to be great - according to my few test plays - it is a surprising card against 3-4 color decks, but it can hurt DnT as well! I let out the red splash because: no more Pyroclasm, to be able to play the 3rd Entreat, to be able to use well the Unexpected Results, to enjoy the benefits of BtB. The lack of Pryroblast and Wear/Tear hurts though Swan Song and Disenchant are far less effective.

What are your thoughts about this list?

[Poron]

what about Moat or Elspeth in your list? double W seems easy..

[Rook1e]

Hi guys. I'm preparing for a large Legacy turnament in a couple of weeks. So i was hoping to get some advise. I'm pretty sold on my main 60 (but i'll listen to any suggestions), but i would very much like som input on my SB. Also, i would appreciate some suggestions to what to board in/out against the following decks: D&T, BUG, Jund and Merfolk.

For reference hereøs my current list:

Land (23)
1x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas
1x Misty Rainforest
2x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Sorcery (5)
2x Entreat the Angels
3x Terminus

Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (5)
3x Counterbalance
1x Moat
1x Rest in Peace

Creature (4)
3x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant

Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
2x Misdirection
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Terminus
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Wear / Tear


/Rook

[klaus]

Sideboard (15)
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
2x Misdirection
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Terminus
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Wear / Tear
/Rook

I strongly suggest 2 Supreme Verdicts between SB & MD. EE ranks among your most versatile spells - to me it has always been a MD car for control decks. RiP is way more random as a MD choice especially since you run a E.T.less build.
Misdirection really only shines against heavy Discard and Decay.dec, and many guys who've tested it were disappointed with its performance.

That's the SB I would roll with atm:
1 S. Verdict (1 MD)
1 Terminus
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Wear/Tear (1-2 EE MD)
2 Fluster Storm (none in the MD)
3 RiP (none in the MD)
2 Bloodmoon (meta call: if you expect a decent amount of greedy decks such as BUG, Punishing Fire.dec, 12 Post etc.)
1 Mountain

otherwise something along the lines of:
Clique/Canonist/Needle/Spell Pierce/Runed Halo (TNN)/...

[YamiJoey]

Back to Basics Vs Blood Moon seems to be an argument that's brewing here, so I think we should have it.

Firstly: In the UWr builds, is Blood Moon better or worse?
Secondly: If it's better, at what point in UW/Esper do you start splashing almost purely for Bloom Moon?

Blood Moon:
+ They can't fetch out Basics after you drop it, making it an absolute blowout in G1 on the play.
+ It allows you to tap all of your excess Lands for colourless (for Jace/Entreat) or get multiple Red ('Clasm into REB?)
- No more fetching to shoot away Brainstorm/Top chaff

Back to Basics:
+ Pitches to FoW
+ Doesn't affect your own fetches
- Doesn't affect their fetches
- Can still be hit by non-basics doing something (Gaea's Cradle only needs activating once).

Just a quickfire thing, I'd like someone to help out.

[klaus]

Back to Basics Vs Blood Moon seems to be an argument that's brewing here, so I think we should have it.

Firstly: In the UWr builds, is Blood Moon better or worse?
Secondly: If it's better, at what point in UW/Esper do you start splashing almost purely for Bloom Moon?

Blood Moon:
+ They can't fetch out Basics after you drop it, making it an absolute blowout in G1 on the play.
+ It allows you to tap all of your excess Lands for colourless (for Jace/Entreat) or get multiple Red ('Clasm into REB?)
- No more fetching to shoot away Brainstorm/Top chaff

Back to Basics:
+ Pitches to FoW
+ Doesn't affect your own fetches
- Doesn't affect their fetches
- Can still be hit by non-basics doing something (Gaea's Cradle only needs activating once).

Just a quickfire thing, I'd like someone to help out.

Most people I see favor Moon over B2B for these reasons:
* will never be Decayed with Bayou/Sea
* turning our future fetches into mountains is not a biggy, since we will hardly ever cast it before turn 5 until which point we've accumulated enough basics to keep us going
* completely disables shenanigans such as Thespian Stage/Dark Depths and the likes
* B2B can be REB'd
* bottom line: I would assume Moon wins more games than B2B, cause it leaves fewer outs to greedy mana bases

[lambert101]

@Einherjer

I am liking your updated list. Some questions though.

1. Why not blood moon over 2 red elemental blast?
2. The 1 of mountain looks smooth, but how do you side it in? Over an island?
3. Has the snapcaster mage - RIP ratio been an issue?
4 .Are the 3 supreme verdicts for ruse of TNN?

Thanks for the help.

[YamiJoey]

* turning our future fetches into mountains is not a biggy, since we will hardly ever cast it before turn 5 until which point we've accumulated enough basics to keep us going

The complaint I make about this is that shuffling your deck is incredibly powerful in this deck. Being unable to later on and just drawing colourless Lands seems - inefficient.

[matunos]

The complaint I make about this is that shuffling your deck is incredibly powerful in this deck. Being unable to later on and just drawing colourless Lands seems - inefficient.

You bring in Blood Moon against decks that are crippled by Blood Moon. So, if you play it right, the upsides are much more than the downsides.

[ziggy_stardust]

On b2b vs moon, in my limited testing with b2b, I've found that it really just delays them by a turn or two rather than totally locking them out of the game, like moon can do. Though, I've also even stopped running moon, because ever since mono-red painter showed up in back to back SCG finals, the BGx midrange decks started running at least one of each basic, and they often start fetching them as soon as they know you're on Miracles as we sometimes run MD moon.

[alphastryk]

On b2b vs moon, in my limited testing with b2b, I've found that it really just delays them by a turn or two rather than totally locking them out of the game, like moon can do. Though, I've also even stopped running moon, because ever since mono-red painter showed up in back to back SCG finals, the BGx midrange decks started running at least one of each basic, and they often start fetching them as soon as they know you're on Miracles as we sometimes run MD moon.

Yep, people have started to wise-up, so I'm debating cutting the Moon from the board. I never boarded it in at Eternal Weekend because my one GBx (Jund) opponent fetched basics early in game 1, and never wanted it in another matchup. Maybe if I expect a lot of BUG I want it, but most people play around it or at least leave Force of Will in vs us.

[Spaker]

Hi everybody,

I played UWr Miracle last week at my magic store, and made it to the 2nd spot, so I thought i could write down some informations about it.

Being interested in control, I started with Miracle three months ago. Sensei's divining top + counterbalance is the tool that got me into this. Jace was also another strong argument. (that is the least i can say)

At first I struggled with finding the "right" 75'.
I began with one of the list of Joe Losset (as far as I can remember, it was the 2 Karakas, 2 Mystic gate, 1 Venser/Clique build), but my starting hands were too unstable. I had to get down to 6, even 5 to have the proper lands and spells in hand.
Then, a friend of mine suggested me the build of Raphaël Levy ; 20 lands and 4 ponder. I revisited it a little, playing this in the end :


MAINDECK

LANDS : 20

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Mesa Arid
1 Karakas
1 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plain


CREATURES : 5

3 Snapcaster
2 Vendilion Clique


INSTANTS : 19

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Disenchant


SORCERIES : 6

4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels


ENCHANTMENTS : 2

2 Counterbalance


ARTIFACTS : 4

4 Sensei's Divining Top


PLANESWALKER : 4

3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant



SIDEBOARD

2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Celestial Purge
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Counterbalance
1 Wear//Tear



With this build, my starting hands are much more balanced. Even with a single land, I allow myself to keep because I have a ponder in hand.
And thanks to those 4 ponder, 20 lands is great. Also : I've never been so happy to find a ponder in late-game.
About that tournament, we were 21 players, 4 rounds.



MATCH 1 : mono-black Rogue.

I had some luck to begin with this match-up. The opponent just built a legacy-deck on budget to play for fun. Nothing scary in there (no Liliana, no Bob, no Wasteland etc), but some cards were kind of problematic combined with heavy discard : some enchantment that would deal 3 damage to me if I only had 1 cards or less in my hand (Believe it or not : when my opponent played this on turn one, i really didn't know if I was entitled to Fow this, or just let it resolve). I had to abuse the draw-ability of the Top. First game, I wasn't able to setup CounterTop, but some Angels found there way here, and took care of the job. I finished on 1 life though...
Second game : CounterTop Online. Terminus. Entreat the Angels.

Like I said ; i got lucky for this first pairing. 2-0/1-0

SIDEBOARD :

-2 Force Of will
-1 Disenchant (no mandatory-target, and i didn't wanted to waste time on those enchantment)
+ 2 Counterbalance
+ 1 Celestial Purge



MATCH 2 : 4 Colours Dead Guy (I think ?)

First time I played against this deck. Strong cards hit me : Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Batterskull, Tidehollow Sculler, Abrupt Decay, DRS ...
Lost to the dice ; he thoughtseized my Top. I had to play this entire game "blind", unable to find another one. Rough battle : he had boardpresence, i only had my Elspeth in play, chompblocking. Finally, I draw a brainstorm which allow me to setup Terminus/Entreat (which I had in hand since the beginning), while still having my Elspeth. After that, he never recovered.
Game 2 : I mull to 6, while not having a great hand. The next three turns, he played Inquisition/Inquisition/Tidehollow Sculler. I terminus one time, but it's not enough. Game 3 ? No : the clock is over.
I should have tried a mulligan to 5 in game 2, but against discard... it's bad.

1-1/1-1-0

SIDEBOARD :

-4 Force of will
-1 Counterspell
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Counterbalance
+1 Rest in Peace



MATCH 3 : Maverick.

I've been reading that Maverick is a strong match-up for us, but I haven't felt it that much so far.
Okay : we have Terminus. But Countertop isn't as powerfull as in other MU because of Qasali Pridemage, Cavern of Souls and Green Sun Zenith (which can be off-curve with my top 3 cards), and wasteland is always something to look out for. Anyway ; game 1, I die to a Stoneforge Mystic fetching sword of Light and Shadow equiped on some knight or Ooze (I don't really remember), no terminus in sight, my early defensive entreat got sworded. Let's go to game 2.
I sideboard and shuffle as fast as I can, 35 minutes on the clock.
Game 2, i succeed in CounterTop, which buys me some turns to expend and find terminus/entreat. But at some point, he established a strong board and put Teeg on the battlefield while I had my terminus on top of the library. I had to find a sword to plowshare first... which i found close to the end. Sword + Terminus + Entreat eot. 4 Angels bring us to game 3.
Game 3 with approximatively 17 minutes. I don't quite remember since i played so fast, but the end of the game was full of stress. I cleaned up the board with a terminus and played Elspeth, but I'm low on life and cannot go for it with the 1/1 boosted soldier each turn. I play Jace and brainstorm to setup entreat. Then my opponent find his sylvan library, which was clearly the best he could play at this point, pays life for cards and drop sigarda. During my turn, I make sure I can drop my angels during his turn with top. I block sigarda, keeps 3 angels. On my turn, I play a Vendilion clique to see the last card in his hand : Crop Rotation. I fear maze of ith in response to my attack... but decide no to put it under his library because I feared the topdeck of swords to plowshare. Alphastrike with angels : no response. He sided-out the maze.
We were in the additionnal rounds.

2-1/2-1-0

SIDEBOARD

-2 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Engineered Explosives



MATCH 4 : Affinity

It was one of those on/off match if you have terminus in hand with brainstorm, or if you find it with top in the 2-3 turns. That said, it stays very difficult because they can kill turn 3-4 if you're unable to find quick solution. A friend of mine plays this deck, so I was aware of the "golden tickets" : cranial plating, etched champion, Tezzeret, arcbound ravager etc.
Game 1 : 3 swords to plowshares, but no terminus. Not enough. Die to 5/5 Artefact with cranial plating.
Game 2 : Terminus/brainstorm. I wait the last moment for maximum value of course. Angels show-up pretty quickly.
Game 3 : Disenchant on cranial plating. Engineered explosives ont Etched Champion. Angels on Tezzeret. Got Wear//Tear in hand.

2-1/3-1-0.

SIDEBOARD :

-2 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will
+1 Wear//Tear
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Path to Exile


Post-tournament, I decided to take out the 4th Counterbalance and add the 3rd Entreat in the sideboard, since I realized that I wanted to go faster during some games. Disenchant is great in the 60 maindeck : it shuts off batterskull/jitte on game 1, as well as sylvan library or other one-of. Surprisingly, I only setup Countertop twice in the evening, and it didn't have the strong lock that i wished. But the list can still do good without it, so it's okay I guess.

Thanks for reading this (if you're still there !), I hope I didn't over-flooded with irrelevant informations.
On your side : what do you think of the list ? The side-board plans ?

Regards,

Spaker

[Rook1e]

Hi everybody,

I played UWr Miracle last week at my magic store, and made it to the 2nd spot, so I thought i could write down some informations about it.

Being interested in control, I started with Miracle three months ago. Sensei's divining top + counterbalance is the tool that got me into this. Jace was also another strong argument. (that is the least i can say)

At first I struggled with finding the "right" 75'.
I began with one of the list of Joe Losset (as far as I can remember, it was the 2 Karakas, 2 Mystic gate, 1 Venser/Clique build), but my starting hands were too unstable. I had to get down to 6, even 5 to have the proper lands and spells in hand.
Then, a friend of mine suggested me the build of Raphaël Levy ; 20 lands and 4 ponder. I revisited it a little, playing this in the end :


MAINDECK

LANDS : 20

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Mesa Arid
1 Karakas
1 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plain


CREATURES : 5

3 Snapcaster
2 Vendilion Clique


INSTANTS : 19

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Disenchant


SORCERIES : 6

4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels


ENCHANTMENTS : 2

2 Counterbalance


ARTIFACTS : 4

4 Sensei's Divining Top


PLANESWALKER : 4

3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant



SIDEBOARD

2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Celestial Purge
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Counterbalance
1 Wear//Tear



With this build, my starting hands are much more balanced. Even with a single land, I allow myself to keep because I have a ponder in hand.
And thanks to those 4 ponder, 20 lands is great. Also : I've never been so happy to find a ponder in late-game.
About that tournament, we were 21 players, 4 rounds.



MATCH 1 : mono-black Rogue.

I had some luck to begin with this match-up. The opponent just built a legacy-deck on budget to play for fun. Nothing scary in there (no Liliana, no Bob, no Wasteland etc), but some cards were kind of problematic combined with heavy discard : some enchantment that would deal 3 damage to me if I only had 1 cards or less in my hand (Believe it or not : when my opponent played this on turn one, i really didn't know if I was entitled to Fow this, or just let it resolve). I had to abuse the draw-ability of the Top. First game, I wasn't able to setup CounterTop, but some Angels found there way here, and took care of the job. I finished on 1 life though...
Second game : CounterTop Online. Terminus. Entreat the Angels.

Like I said ; i got lucky for this first pairing. 2-0/1-0

SIDEBOARD :

-2 Force Of will
-1 Disenchant (no mandatory-target, and i didn't wanted to waste time on those enchantment)
+ 2 Counterbalance
+ 1 Celestial Purge



MATCH 2 : 4 Colours Dead Guy (I think ?)

First time I played against this deck. Strong cards hit me : Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Batterskull, Tidehollow Sculler, Abrupt Decay, DRS ...
Lost to the dice ; he thoughtseized my Top. I had to play this entire game "blind", unable to find another one. Rough battle : he had boardpresence, i only had my Elspeth in play, chompblocking. Finally, I draw a brainstorm which allow me to setup Terminus/Entreat (which I had in hand since the beginning), while still having my Elspeth. After that, he never recovered.
Game 2 : I mull to 6, while not having a great hand. The next three turns, he played Inquisition/Inquisition/Tidehollow Sculler. I terminus one time, but it's not enough. Game 3 ? No : the clock is over.
I should have tried a mulligan to 5 in game 2, but against discard... it's bad.

1-1/1-1-0

SIDEBOARD :

-4 Force of will
-1 Counterspell
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Counterbalance
+1 Rest in Peace



MATCH 3 : Maverick.

I've been reading that Maverick is a strong match-up for us, but I haven't felt it that much so far.
Okay : we have Terminus. But Countertop isn't as powerfull as in other MU because of Qasali Pridemage, Cavern of Souls and Green Sun Zenith (which can be off-curve with my top 3 cards), and wasteland is always something to look out for. Anyway ; game 1, I die to a Stoneforge Mystic fetching sword of Light and Shadow equiped on some knight or Ooze (I don't really remember), no terminus in sight, my early defensive entreat got sworded. Let's go to game 2.
I sideboard and shuffle as fast as I can, 35 minutes on the clock.
Game 2, i succeed in CounterTop, which buys me some turns to expend and find terminus/entreat. But at some point, he established a strong board and put Teeg on the battlefield while I had my terminus on top of the library. I had to find a sword to plowshare first... which i found close to the end. Sword + Terminus + Entreat eot. 4 Angels bring us to game 3.
Game 3 with approximatively 17 minutes. I don't quite remember since i played so fast, but the end of the game was full of stress. I cleaned up the board with a terminus and played Elspeth, but I'm low on life and cannot go for it with the 1/1 boosted soldier each turn. I play Jace and brainstorm to setup entreat. Then my opponent find his sylvan library, which was clearly the best he could play at this point, pays life for cards and drop sigarda. During my turn, I make sure I can drop my angels during his turn with top. I block sigarda, keeps 3 angels. On my turn, I play a Vendilion clique to see the last card in his hand : Crop Rotation. I fear maze of ith in response to my attack... but decide no to put it under his library because I feared the topdeck of swords to plowshare. Alphastrike with angels : no response. He sided-out the maze.
We were in the additionnal rounds.

2-1/2-1-0

SIDEBOARD

-2 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Engineered Explosives



MATCH 4 : Affinity

It was one of those on/off match if you have terminus in hand with brainstorm, or if you find it with top in the 2-3 turns. That said, it stays very difficult because they can kill turn 3-4 if you're unable to find quick solution. A friend of mine plays this deck, so I was aware of the "golden tickets" : cranial plating, etched champion, Tezzeret, arcbound ravager etc.
Game 1 : 3 swords to plowshares, but no terminus. Not enough. Die to 5/5 Artefact with cranial plating.
Game 2 : Terminus/brainstorm. I wait the last moment for maximum value of course. Angels show-up pretty quickly.
Game 3 : Disenchant on cranial plating. Engineered explosives ont Etched Champion. Angels on Tezzeret. Got Wear//Tear in hand.

2-1/3-1-0.

SIDEBOARD :

-2 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will
+1 Wear//Tear
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Path to Exile


Post-tournament, I decided to take out the 4th Counterbalance and add the 3rd Entreat in the sideboard, since I realized that I wanted to go faster during some games. Disenchant is great in the 60 maindeck : it shuts off batterskull/jitte on game 1, as well as sylvan library or other one-of. Surprisingly, I only setup Countertop twice in the evening, and it didn't have the strong lock that i wished. But the list can still do good without it, so it's okay I guess.

Thanks for reading this (if you're still there !), I hope I didn't over-flooded with irrelevant informations.
On your side : what do you think of the list ? The side-board plans ?

Regards,

Spaker

Any reason you don't play Wear / Tear over disenchant?

[Spaker]

Well, I've tried both before making my choice, but in the end, I prefer to stick with Disenchant maindeck because of the 1W cost, which is much more stable to obtain than 1R with Wear//Tear if you want to break artifact. And I played several games with Wear//Tear, and 9 times out of 10 i just wanted to get rid of an artifact (enchantment are less popular in general) like the batterskull.
But in order to do that, i was forced to fetch that volcanic island, which is vulnerable to wasteland (I agree : that doesn't make a big difference when you're at 5-6 mana to potentially lose one land, but if the artifact lands quickly, and you're only at 2-3 mana, you won't like putting a wasteland-target on board). The match-up against UWR Delver belong to this scenario since they have stifle and wasteland to stop you from having that strong mana-base.
Let just say that disenchant is a more secured choice since you'll always be able to cast it, no matter what the opponent is playing. (Wear//Tear is especially great in the mirror.)


Regards

Spaker

[twndomn]

LANDS : 20

With this build, my starting hands are much more balanced. Even with a single land, I allow myself to keep because I have a ponder in hand.
And thanks to those 4 ponder, 20 lands is great. Also : I've never been so happy to find a ponder in late-game.


Not convinced. This deck should not miss land drops. Even with 4 ponders, 20 lands is ridiculously low. You are almost forced to play turn 1 ponder to ensure more lands coming, which makes you vulnerable to opponent's turn 1 play.

[Spaker]

Maybe I poorly expressed myself : my starting hands don't regularly contain 1 land, but it happens sometimes and when it does, only if I have a ponder or a Top, i'm more willing to keep, knowing I'll have way to find some others. That said ; it also depends on the opponent's deck. Of course, I won't consider a "1 land-hand", even with a ponder, against a RUG/UWR Delver since i know that the fetch and/or the ponder are not likely to get through the counter-wall.

So far, it seems to work. Maybe I did not play Joe Losset's build enough to be comfortable with it, but I notice that 4 ponder is a great tool when it comes to consistency.

Regards,

Spaker

[Poron]

Maverick is, generally, an easy matchup because of Pyroclasm. You don't play any.

Anyway after the print of Toxic Deluge make me consider the drop the red splash for a black one.

Notion Thief is so strong against anything that plays blue and combo.
Now there's deluge which is > than Pyroclasm because it allows us to kill Mongoose and True-Name Nemesis

it also doesn't fear Mother of Runes and eventually kills Gaddok Teeg too..

[MrShine]

Maverick is, generally, an easy matchup because of Pyroclasm. You don't play any.

Anyway after the print of Toxic Deluge make me consider the drop the red splash for a black one.

Notion Thief is so strong against anything that plays blue and combo.
Now there's deluge which is > than Pyroclasm because it allows us to kill Mongoose and True-Name Nemesis

it also doesn't fear Mother of Runes and eventually kills Gaddok Teeg too..

I like this logic. You can also start running some pinpoint discard ala Thoughtseize in place of REBs to shore up Combo MUs... which is ofc good with Snapcaster, if you are running him (taking a leaf out of Esperblade here).

Notion Thief actually seems like its best used in this deck, as we are most likely to actually get to 4 mana. Man, what about casting him in response to Glimpse of Nature? 0_o

Not to mention Deluge is 3cmc for CB vs TNN... redundancy, much? I really like it.

What we really have to consider is how much REBs matter to us, because as I see it they are the #1 reason to be running Red.

[ziggy_stardust]

Notion Thief actually seems like its best used in this deck, as we are most likely to actually get to 4 mana. Man, what about casting him in response to Glimpse of Nature? 0_o

You mean in response to the first Glimpse trigger, right? :P
Otherwise, they just won't cast any creatures.

[alphastryk]

I like this logic. You can also start running some pinpoint discard ala Thoughtseize in place of REBs to shore up Combo MUs... which is ofc good with Snapcaster, if you are running him (taking a leaf out of Esperblade here).

Notion Thief actually seems like its best used in this deck, as we are most likely to actually get to 4 mana. Man, what about casting him in response to Glimpse of Nature? 0_o

Not to mention Deluge is 3cmc for CB vs TNN... redundancy, much? I really like it.

What we really have to consider is how much REBs matter to us, because as I see it they are the #1 reason to be running Red.

I like Toxic Deluge, but REB is definitely the reason we are in red. I'm not sold on discard improving our already good combo matches, so that's not real upside to me.

[MrShine]

I like Toxic Deluge, but REB is definitely the reason we are in red. I'm not sold on discard improving our already good combo matches, so that's not real upside to me.

I see it more as incidental upside to go along with running Deluge. We bring in REBs vs combo now, so Discard would be the black version's REBs, while Deluge replaces Pyroclasm. Its worth noting that Discard also plays the same role as REBs in the control matches; preventing scary threats from hitting the board. It's also is more flexible against the non U decks, obviously.

@ Ziggy - Its more just to see the look on their faces... but yeah, in response to the first trigger (lets hope it was off a visionary!) would be best. It is definitely totally niche, but sometimes magic is fun, right? /griefing

[Dzra]

I've tested a little against True-Name Nemesis and while it's pretty good, it isn't really backbreaking. It seems like it is most threatening coming out of the Delver decks since they are also pressuring our mana base. Against the more midranged Nemesis decks, you have the option to race with an Entreat that they have few ways of stopping. Has anyone else had similar results?

[Poron]

yes, if Elves keep on getting popular, Notion Thief can become a SB bomb. It's out the reach of Abrupt Decay too..

that way you gain those 4-5 turns that let you swype the board for your Entreat.

Jace is rather out of the league because of their horde

oooops, I forgot Perish overall..

[YamiJoey]

Is Perish really better than just playing Toxic Deluge? I mean, it hits Goyfs better, but Deluge hits tonnes of other stuff, and can be used against Sneak Attack in a seriously dire situation. (Not sure if you'd have to stoop that low in all honesty.)

[Poron]

Yes, Deluge is definitly better. For fatties we have Terminus and StP

[sdematt]

Deluge hits indestructible stuff as well, and hits non-green creatures. You know, Death and Taxes, Goblins, Merfolk, etc.

-Matt

[Poron]

do we have a winner? what else might we add in the black splash?

Bitterblossom? (2cc Elspeth)

[Valtrix]

do we have a winner? what else might we add in the black splash?

Bitterblossom? (2cc Elspeth)

Baleful Strix (It's seriously great, trust me!)

[Poron]

awful sinergy with both Terminus and Deluge (we'd play 6-7 in our 75)

Bitterblossom looks rather antisynergic either...

mmm

[twndomn]

Baleful Strix (It's seriously great, trust me!)

Deluge is over-rated in Miracle. Your life total should be spent on fetchland and taking early beats. Why are we wasting life on Deluge when you could just play Engineered Plague?

Options are:
Plague
Notion Thief
Baleful Strix
Inquisition/Duress... discard.

Oarsman mentioned an interesting point about Miracle vs TNN: Miracle is the only deck offering permanents that actually pose threats to opponent such that he/she might actually spend targeted removal on, which is a great Misdirection Target for Miracle onto TNN, as well as offering mass creature removal.

Hence, comparing to other Legacy decks, Miracle has the least of worries, I don't understand all the buzz in the previous pages. Ever since I personally started running Misdirection in either MD/SB, I have not considered otherwise. I would expect a lot more of Misdirecting Pyro/REB/Lightning Bolt/Abrupt Decay from CB/Clique onto TNN.

[Poron]

Misdirection is an heavy one..

card disadvantage and very situational.. it would require to have a TNN already in game either, to be really cool..

very situational. My answear to Abrupt Decay is Karakas (Clique) and Moat, in place of CB/RiP (usually they have no other removal apart from AD)

they I start to build a Jace/Entreat kill. In BUG matchup Deluge would be very useful too (Deathrite, Baleful Strix, Dark Confidant)

[YamiJoey]

I really like the idea of attempting to resolve a CB, then Misdirecting a REB onto a TNN. That feels like value.

Still, we don't care about TNN. I play 3 Terminus and a Verdict, and have the ability to counter it for days with CB and such. I can race it with Clique, and finish them with Angels. Spell Pierce and pitch Spells ensure that I can resolve these things. I could see them boarding it out if they have sufficient threats elsewhere, but I doubt they do and so are stuck with a Creature that is probe to even more cards out of the board.

[Einherjer]

@Einherjer

I am liking your updated list. Some questions though.

1. Why not blood moon over 2 red elemental blast?
2. The 1 of mountain looks smooth, but how do you side it in? Over an island?
3. Has the snapcaster mage - RIP ratio been an issue?
4 .Are the 3 supreme verdicts for ruse of TNN?

Thanks for the help.

I do not like Blood Moon in this version of Miracles. Other than that Red Elemental Blast serves other purposes.
The Mountain is there for the tempo-MU. I wanna keep up REB without having to play around Stifle and/or Wasteland.
Nah, it's been fine this way - just know what you need to play when and you should be fine.
Yeah, Verdicts are the direct replacements for the now outdated Pyroclasm in order to deal with Nemesis. (and obv. everything else too)


@Everybody...

Yeah...good idea... let's just play cards like Deluge + Bitterblossom ... We always have a high life total - so we can totally use this as a resource in order to exploit the undenieable upsides of this cards... In addition to this we get improvements to REB aswell - as Thoughtseize handles all the stuff too.... And yeah...Vindicate and stuff....Oh and if we have problems with creatures... Baleful Strix.. sure....


NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT

I was under the impression we already had this? Black is no sufficient replacement of red and never in god's name for cards like Strix or Blossom. (and most likely not for Deluge too....) - I still fail to see any serious upsides of black that do not cut on all the advantages of red... like... just...stop... we've had this already.

Greetings

[serendib]

Is True Name Nemesis a problem ...
just play Humility and/or Moat

[Poron]

ok Blossom and Strix are bad, ok.

But Notion Thief and Deluge looks rather big pieces.

Deluge > Pyroclasm (imho)

and the only other (not small) reason why we run red is REB.

Isn't Thief + Discards worth similar? Don't know.

By the way, how many Pyroclasm do you play, Einherjer?

[Einherjer]

I did play 2 Pyroclasm with the intention of running the third. Then Nemesis came along. Now I am playing this:

4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Entreat the Angels
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ponder
1 Karakas
3 Scalding Tarn
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Mountain


I could be wrong about Deluge as I did not test it enough. But all the other things are just plain inferior. I do not have to tell you what Discard sucks in our deck, do I? Play Esperblade - that's where you want to be with stuff like Thoughtseize and stuff like that.

For the upcoming Legacy-Events I will be tuning two decks, one being Miracles, the other being Esperblade (where I cannot reveal the decklist) - but keep in mind that Nemesis is a real thing now --> I expect it to be pretty prevelant at GP DC - as everybody has their copies for now.

Greetings

[Adryan]

Yeah TNN will be prevelant but i wouldn't preprare much for it with Miracle. He's just a worse Vendilion Clique, Vendilion Clique is a superior threat against us in almost every way. The only upside of TNN is that it has protection from everything and Pyroclasm is useless against it.

Without equipment he's just a cute clock that kills us not very quickly, so we have time to find Terminus etc. I don't see myself cutting my single Pyroclasm because DNT is still a good and well positioned deck. There are also at least some people (~5%) who will never give up playing Maverick, no matter what.

Elves and Jund are also still big players so as i said Pyroclasm is still very useful and good. TNN is a a powerful card but not extremely powerful and dominating, so that i would play 4 Pyroblasts and tune my complete deck against it.



Where do i get this? I had some testgames against Esperblade on Magic Online with TNN (we said the Cliques are TNN; what the hell was Wotc thinking about MODO Commander Release Date?? 20th december is a complete joke) and i must say that the matchup went from slightly negative to favorable because of the absence of Lingering Souls. TNN is not a big threat against us. Every other fair deck has to prepare for it, but we don't have to. I'm just glad that people stop playing stuff like a nasty 1-of Clique in UWR Tempo etc.

[alphastryk]

Pretty close to settling on my 76 for GP DC. I played this tonight at our local and chopped top4:


1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ponder
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Counterbalance
3 Rest in Peace
1 Energy Field
1 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mystic Gate
1 Karakas

sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Wear // Tear
3 Meddling Mage


The 3rd Meddling Mage should have been a second sideboard Clique but I couldn't find one right before the event.

I beat Threshold, BUG control (TNN not Shardless), and UB Contamination combo (?), but lost a close match to Death and Taxes.

I've been leaving explosives at home for a while, but it felt amazing today to deal with Nemesis, Liliana, and functioned as a wrath vs DnT's board multiple times. Finally cut Blood Moon and never wanted it all night, so I think it will be on the sidelines for the GP as well.

[Poron]

yup, Blood Moon is much weaker now than in the past. Reb and Pyroclasm are the only red splash worth to be considered

[twndomn]

Yeah TNN will be prevelant but i wouldn't preprare much for it with Miracle. He's just a worse Vendilion Clique, Vendilion Clique is a superior threat against us in almost every way. The only upside of TNN is that it has protection from everything and Pyroclasm is useless against it.

Without equipment he's just a cute clock that kills us not very quickly, so we have time to find Terminus etc.

TNN is a better version Geist. As seen in the DC GP, multiple TNN on the board from a player is funny to look at, that's impossible for Geist. TNN can block all day, which is also superior than Geist.

Interesting note, more and more decks are running at least 3 TNN, which is about $120 dollars and going up. You can buy 1 Moat for the price of 3~4 TNN at some point, roughly. I'll take Moat any day.

[YamiJoey]

So Thassa, apparently.

Qualifier #5 - Lewis Laskin - Counterbalance

// 22 Lands
2 Plains
6 Island
2 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra

// 16 Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus

// 22 Permanents
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Energy Field
2 Rest in Peace
1 Back to Basics
2 Detention Sphere
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

// Sideboard
1 Aura of Silence
1 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Flusterstorm
1 Humility
3 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus

I don't like this build all that much, and the result isn't exactly outstanding, but it shows something. Devotion to Blue was definitely not what I was expecting to see in the pro's column of Back to Basics. She seems sweet, though. Spin Top -> untap put a card away -> (spin again?) -> Draw. Seems like a neat way of basically drawing a card every turn, and if she ever gets online she can be a bit of a pain, taking some of the StP flack away from Clique and Venser, though I expect a Clique to be out at that point. Early CB lock into Thassa, into EoT Clique, hit you for 8 seems like quite the change in pace, and can really hit people hard. It's not like they can really react to it with Top Lock online, either. You blank all of their relevant Spells incredibly easily.

Just some food. She's also a Tutorable 3-drop, which is not irrelevant.

[cschacal]

I find the power to deal with non creature permanents at instant speed of "unexpectedly absent" to be more useful than Thassa in this deck but in a pure U/W snapcaster shell.

[sauce]

that lewis laskin list is feces. :eyebrow:

[Zllig]

After an absurdly disappointing performance in the main event at GP DC I have decided to do something rash and cut the red from the deck. I had already weened myself off of Engineered Explosives in the board and was down to just 2x Wear//Tear, 1xRed Elemental Blast, 1xPyroblast and 1xPyroclasm. I figure that just 5 sideboard cards aren't worth the weaker mana base, although I haven't necessarily made it stronger I gave myself more utility. I switched my list to this on the fly before doing some 8 mans to get revenge for my 4-4 record (With 2 byes zzz):
Main(61 special)
Lands:
4xFlooded Strand
1xPolluted Delta
1xMisty Rainforest
1xScalding Tarn
1xArid Mesa
4xIsland
3xPlains
2xTundra
1xMystic Gate
1xKarakas
3xMishra's Factory

Planeswalker:
3xJace, the Mind Sculptor

Instant:
2xFact or Fiction
4xBrainstorm
4xSwords to Plowshares
1xCounterspell
1xFlusterstorm
2xSpell Pierce
3xForce of Will
1xMisdirection

Sorcery:
2xEntreat the Angels
3xTerminus
1xSupreme Verdict

Artifact:
4xSensei's Divining Top

Enchantment:
4xCounterbalance

Creatures:
2xSnapcaster Mage
2xVendilion Clique

Sideboard
2xRest in Peace
2xDisenchant
2xEthersworn Canonist
2xMeddling Mage
1xForce of Will
1xMisdirection
1xVendilion Clique
1xSupreme Verdict
1xPath to Exile
1xEntreat the Angels
1xVenser, Shaper Savant

The mana base was thrown together the moment the first 8 man fired so it isn't ideal, but it worked out and I managed to win the 2 events I joined.

I was super impressed with my new sideboard cards. Ethersworn Canonist was a new edition before I cut the red entirely and she was insane all day. Having a threat that was almost as good as Counterbalance against most combo decks was incredible, not to mention it has game against elves as a great blocker and makes them have to either overextend into a terminus or rely on a one shot Natural Order that I can leave up Force of Will to stop. Meddling Mage was pretty great as well, he single handedly caused me to win against Omnitell stuck on two lands. Disenchant is basically just as good as Wear//Tear minus the whole sweet Counterbalance interaction, plus I get to play the beta version which is always a plus. I am currently thinking about replacing the second Misdirection with a Leyline of Sanctity, I played against Alphastryk in Philly and I was surprised how good it was in the mirror. Mainly I want it for Shardless Bug and Jund to help with those matches.

As for the maindeck, the decision to play Mishra's Factory was between it and Wasteland. I had Factories so I tried them first, they are awesome. They really help against opposing planeswalkers like Lilly and Jace, I managed to beat the mirror game 1 simply because I had a factory and an ambush viper to take down my opponents Jace. Going forward I will probably cut the Factories to two since I ended up having more Factories in play than I wanted at times. I also want to get a second Karakas eventually because that card is the stone cold nut, I'll probably move the Venser back to the main when I do that (yolo fuck it 62 special) and really move in on the man plan. I also want to fit a second Counterspell in the main somehow, it's probably going replace the Flusterstorm (which may or may not make it to the sideboard, the card is real sweet but with the Canonists and Mages in the board now I am less worried about combo match ups). Fact or Fiction is still awesome and never disappointed me all weekend, the amount of 4-1 piles I got was surprising (spoiler I took the 4 everytime, dat CA hnng). Having it be a "threat" that I could run out end of my opponents turn was awesome and I was never concerned with it getting countered since then they didn't have a counter anymore. It also allows me to freely sideout Jace against most combo decks so I don't have to worry about trying to tap out or use most of my mana for Jace to try and dig for more counters and then die the next turn. Plus I won't lie, I love the reactions from people around me who love seeing Fact or Fiction still get cast. I also tried to run 4 Terminus and 3 Swords in the main event, but I don't think I'll ever do that again. Props to Joe for pushing the limits of Miracles and playing 2 Swords, but I just can't get behind that. Format is going to have to get real degenerate for me to shave on Swords moving on. 4 Terminus is also just too clunky if you have those Brainstormless draws, I wish I had marked the Terminus I had exchanged with Swords so I could go on tilt when I saw it sitting in my hand getting beat down by a Delver or something.

My brother and I had a good time laughing at the fact that the way I want to move forward with Miracles is starting to look like some UW control deck from the 90s with 4 Wraths, Counterspell, Fact or Fiction etc. However, currently the list I want to start testing in the future will be:
Main(62 yolo fuck it till I make up my mind to cut things)
Lands:
4xFlooded Strand
1xPolluted Delta
1xMisty Rainforest
1xScalding Tarn
1xArid Mesa
4xIsland
2xPlains
3xTundra
1xMystic Gate
2xKarakas
2xMishra's Factory

Planeswalker:
3xJace, the Mind Sculptor

Instant:
2xFact or Fiction
4xBrainstorm
4xSwords to Plowshares
2xCounterspell
2xSpell Pierce
3xForce of Will
1xMisdirection

Sorcery:
2xEntreat the Angels
3xTerminus
1xSupreme Verdict

Artifact:
4xSensei's Divining Top

Enchantment:
4xCounterbalance

Creatures:
2xSnapcaster Mage
2xVendilion Clique
1xVenser, Shaper Savant

Sideboard
2xRest in Peace
2xDisenchant
2xEthersworn Canonist
2xMeddling Mage
1xForce of Will
1xMisdirection
1xVendilion Clique
1xSupreme Verdict
1xPath to Exile
1xEntreat the Angels
1xLeyline of Sanctity

Really disappointed with the lack of good Miracles finishes lately, the deck seems so good now (although it always seems good to me, just a very nice consistent deck) from the decks I keep seeing in the top 8. Apparently we need to get our shit together and start taking down these tournies.

[alphastryk]

Quick summary of GPDC, I'll try to get a better report up later.

Ended up audible-ing to a non-RiP / Helm list for the GP:


4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ponder
1 Portent
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Mystic Gate
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Moat
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wear // Tear
1 Ethersworn Cannonist

The list felt really solid, I just played awful on Saturday. I was talking to phazonmutant afterwards and I think there's something to not normally playing magic in the morning being an issue for me, since I always seem to do great at large side events on day 2.

Ran the list back in the miserable payout 'Legacy Plus' event on Sunday (150 players cut to top4 for packs, ended up being swiss-1 and slightly increased payout after 149 people entered). While the setup of that event was just awful (how do you not expect a turnout of less than 10% of the GP count?), it worked out for me. I went 6-1 and snuck into top4 as the 4 seed, along with Thresh, BUG Delver (my 1 loss in the swiss), and Mono-U Omnitell. Unfortunately i lost a close match to Thresh and left with just 39 Theros packs, but I proved that I can play better and that this list is good.

I'm going to stick with this build for a while, since it worked pretty well.

[Dzra]

Huh, I wonder if I saw anyone there. There were several Miracle players around me during the day, but I was feeling pretty miserable with my record and didn't feel much like socializing... a bad habit of mine, I know. If anyone saw me, I was the long haired guy with the pimped out Miracles lurking in the x-2 and x-3 bracket. Oh well. Ended up going a disappointing 6-3 with 2 buys, beating TES, Omnitell, Death and Taxes, and Burn and losing to UWR Delver, Fish, and Death and Taxes. As per usual, unfortunate draws were magnified by weak keeps and greedy plays.

Here was my list, and aside from not seeing any board wipes during my Fish and DNT losses, it ran very well.

//Land 23
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
2 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate

//Creatures 6
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

//Other Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Entreat the Angels

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Wear // Tear

[UB Control]

Hi All!

As I read here it was not the weekend of the Miracles. It was definitely not for me! We had our monthly national Legacy event. As I wrote earlier I was thinking and testing a lot. There were 4-5 flexible slots. Finally I decided to run the following list:

//Land 22
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Gate

//Creatures 4
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

//Other Spells 34
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Unexpectedly Absent
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Entreat the Angels

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Detention Sphere

The last change that I made was to play the 2nd Snapcaster over the 3rd Entreat. As it turned out it was a huge mistake!
My first opponent was a Jund player, how beat me last time and become the winner of the event.
He rolled higher, I mulled to 6, he had first turn TS. After 15 minutes he won the first game. He scooped in the second after 20 minutes. Than we did not have time to finish the third game so 1-1.
The second opponent was not a big player. He was with UR Delver-Pyromancer. We run out of time again. 1-1
Third opponent is a Pro Tour player with Esper. Also 1-1.
The last opponent was a Bant player. In the first game he cast a 2nd turn Gaddock Teeg and had a Karakas in the 3rd turn so did not have much chance. Than I was tired and confused so I made a mistake of bouncing a creature instead of brainstorming with Jace to be able to see one more card with my Top. When the 50 minutes were over he just killed me. So 2-0 instead of the 1-1.
That is frustrating because last time I was 2nd, before that I was 3rd. So I was hoping for a first place or at least being top4.

I need the 3rd Entreat and maybe the 3rd Clique to be able to win faster. Or I might try the RIP-Helm list which I don’t really like because of the Decay-discard heavy meta.

Unexpectedly Absent was fine. It is good to have a MD to be able to deal with permanents. MD Verdict was also fine.

Thanks for reading!

[Dzra]

That is frustrating because last time I was 2nd, before that I was 3rd. So I was hoping for a first place or at least being top4.

Try to sit on the side that faces the clock and just don't let up off the gas. Most people are used to playing decks and playing against decks that kill a lot faster than Miracles, so they aren't used to watching the clock. You have to watch the clock for them and constantly remind them how much time is left and to play faster. If you can't do that or think it is too rude then you can't be playing this deck in a tournament setting.

Ironically, the closest I got to time over the weekend was against TES. It got to the point where all I had time for was adjusting the top 3 at his EoT, untapping, drawing, and attacking. My turn look about 5-10 seconds then he'd draw and spend a minute trying to think of a line to get him out of Counterbalance, and this is with me encouraging him to play faster and against one of the fastest decks in the format. If you play against the mirror, UB Tezz, midranged-whatever or some other potentially grindy deck, you both have to go as blazing fast as you can (and if they don't want to, you have to make them).

[TheArchitect]

I played UWr Miracles at GP DC with a very disappointing 3-2-1 finish especially since I won 2 byes at a local trial.

Round 1 - Bye

Round 2 - Bye

Round 3 - Jund 1-1-1
Dude was a standard player and had no idea what he was doing. He lucksacked 1 game where I mulled to oblivion and then he proceeded to side out his lilys and bloodbriads (I kid you not) for Ebridges, toxic deluge and extirpates and then proceeded to slow play me with his constant banter about scg articles he read, took literally 2 minutes to cut (shuffle) my deck each time I shuffled and calling the judge like 5 times because he doesnt now how any cards in legacy work. Yes, your extirpate gets counter by CB if 1 is on top of my deck, and yes I can crack a fetch in response to entreat without "shuffling away the miracle card". I had game 3 looked up thanks to him keeping his hand below 3 cards so his own ebrige prevented his 6/7 goyf from attacking my slowly ticking up Jace but we went to time. This round pissed me off. My first round and draw to an idiot.

Round 4 - LED Dredge 1-2
Game 1 dredge does its thing. G2 I have a god hand and he loses to RIP and stps on his hardcast thugs/narcs. G3 I keep a cantrip heavy 7 and get punished for it. My mistake there.

Round 5 - Dark Mav 2-0
Both pretty close games, but I had all the right answers to his stuff.

Round 6 - D&T 1-2
I actually win game 1 thanks to venser and CB. G2 I mull to 5 and dont get to play magic. G3 he does what D&T does while I draw fairly poorly and lose after a long, but not close, grind.

3-2-1 Drop Bleh

I played a win a box and crushed pox, aggro loam and then ID'd with shardless for 20 packs so that was good.

My list felt fine, it was similar to the one posted a few pages back but with no snaps, and with venser and a 3rd entreat MD and needles in the SB. I want a MD moat though I think.

[Kaslan]

Just came back from GP DC with a record of 7-2 for day1 and 2-3-1 in day2. here is my list (my list is inspired by Raphael Levy's list) :

LANDS
5 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Plains
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
2 Polluted Delta

CREATURES
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Entreat the Angels
2 Spell Pierce


OTHER SPELLS
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Counterbalance

SIDEBOARD
1 Runed Halo
1 Disenchant
1 Counterbalance
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
3 Rest in Peace
1 Envelop
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Match ups:
Day 1
2-0 Junk
2-0 RUG
2-1 BW small pox
1-2 Jund
2-0 Slivers
2-0 ANT
2-1 Elves
2-1 Big Red Sneak Attack
1-2 Esper Blade

Day 2
2-0 Reanimator
2-0 Junk
1-1 Death and Tax ( Brian Kibler )
0-2 Omnishow
0-2 Miracles
1-2 RUG

- I loved the consistency of having for Brainstorm, Ponder and top.
- 20 lands was the right number.
- If I had to change something in my 75 it would be :
MAIN DECK:
+ 1 Vendilion Clique (main deck)
+ 2 Engineered Explosives (main deck)
- 1 Terminus (main deck)
- 2 Counterbalance (main deck)

SIDEBOARD :
+2 Meddling Mage
+1 Venser, Shaper Savant
+1 Counterbalance
+1 Terminus
-1 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Helm of Obedience
-2 Engineered Explosives
-1 Pithing Needle

[twndomn]

1-2 Jund
1-2 Esper Blade


See that? Some people believe RiP will carry the MU against Jund, but it's not that simple. Did that Esper use TNN? How's your experience against TNN?



Round 6 - D&T 1-2
I actually win game 1 thanks to venser and CB. G2 I mull to 5 and dont get to play magic. G3 he does what D&T does while I draw fairly poorly and lose after a long, but not close, grind.


This is definitely disappointing, in theory, Miracle is favored and would outclass DnT.

[Kaslan]

[QUOTE=twndomn;767173]See that? Some people believe RiP will carry the MU against Jund, but it's not that simple. Did that Esper use TNN? How's your experience against TNN?


- RIP is very good vs Jund but it's not our best card vs Jund, Entreat the Angles is!

- Vs Jund I lost game one because be went blood bread in to punishing fire on my Jace after I had Wrathed the board and +2ed Jace

- TNN is not a problem in a deck with 4 terminus, 4 ponders, 4 brainstorms and 4 tops specially in Esper, Bant or UWR that do's not have stifles.
It's a bit more problematic in tempo decks.

- The esper player did kill me with TNN In game 2, but it's because I got mana screwed (only game in the tournament mana was a problem) not because I could not deal with his creatures

[ivanpei]

A good death and taxes player can do well against miracles. Thalia + Karakas is a big beating as we can't effectively get rid of her. Combined with ports and wastelands, it's painful. Also if Vial lands, it's basically game over for the miracle player. If the dnt player is careful not to over extend and ports instead of flooding the board with creatures, they have a good chance. Mangara Karakas lock is also a major pain. Vial makes Jace much worse in general.

My general strategy is to go for the entreat win if the dnt player has Vial out. Jace win against a Vial is very difficult due to eot flash.beatsticks.

[Koby]

An interesting scenario came up in Joe's Miracle stream tonite.

It's Game 3 versus The EPIC Storm. We made a misplay by letting Xantid Swarm resolve, then decided to jump in front of it with Clique and hopefully disrupt on the combo player's Turn 3. He has not made a land drop, and Storm is 1 (Clique).

http://i.imgur.com/uB7AGN2.png

What do you take, and why?
Assume that the Sideboard for BWish has no limit, and any Sorcery could be used.
We don't know what card is on top of the deck.

Show your work :)

[alphastryk]

An interesting scenario came up in Joe's Miracle stream tonite.

It's Game 3 versus The EPIC Storm. We made a misplay by letting Xantid Swarm resolve, then decided to jump in front of it with Clique and hopefully disrupt on the combo player's Turn 3. He has not made a land drop, and Storm is 1 (Clique).

http://i.imgur.com/uB7AGN2.png

What do you take, and why?
Assume that the Sideboard for BWish has no limit, and any Sorcery could be used.
We don't know what card is on top of the deck.

Show your work :)

Ooh, I like this one, although I should note that I don't like playing the clique here. I'd prefer to lay out explosives and kill the swarm on our turn before passing to keep our force live.

Given, the current situation though, does our opponent know the top card of their library? I see a Ponder in the graveyard, maybe they hid their best card?.

We have to assume our top card is a blank and plan that way, anything else is upside for us. I think the legitimate options here are to take nothing and to take a wish, and I prefer to take a wish. They are most likely to wish for Empty to try to get through a potential force, or Past in Flames which requires the second tutor. If we leave them both wishes, we possibly lose if they can Empty and wish for a discard spell to take our explosives (which, thinking about it, we should have played out for 0 if we weren't going to kill the swarm to make multiple LEDs dead cards) One tutor limits the options that our TES opponent has, and I think we can beat any single wish target with this hand. Our worst case scenario is that another tutor was hidden, in which case our Clique did nothing, and we still could win, but it is unlikely given the BW -> PiF -> Tendrils line our opponent has. Actually, I take that back - worst case scenario is a hidden Ad Nauseum, which our hand likely can't beat. I like our odds though since it looks like our opponent was planning to win this turn.

[SirTylerGalt]

Ooh, I like this one, although I should note that I don't like playing the clique here. I'd prefer to lay out explosives and kill the swarm on our turn before passing to keep our force live.

Given, the current situation though, does our opponent know the top card of their library? I see a Ponder in the graveyard, maybe they hid their best card?.

We have to assume our top card is a blank and plan that way, anything else is upside for us. I think the legitimate options here are to take nothing and to take a wish, and I prefer to take a wish. They are most likely to wish for Empty to try to get through a potential force, or Past in Flames which requires the second tutor. If we leave them both wishes, we possibly lose if they can Empty and wish for a discard spell to take our explosives (which, thinking about it, we should have played out for 0 if we weren't going to kill the swarm to make multiple LEDs dead cards) One tutor limits the options that our TES opponent has, and I think we can beat any single wish target with this hand. Our worst case scenario is that another tutor was hidden, in which case our Clique did nothing, and we still could win, but it is unlikely given the BW -> PiF -> Tendrils line our opponent has. Actually, I take that back - worst case scenario is a hidden Ad Nauseum, which our hand likely can't beat. I like our odds though since it looks like our opponent was planning to win this turn.

Taking a Burning Wish also stops him from using Ill-Gotten Gains with a tutor in the graveyard.

I don't understand when you say "They are most likely to wish for Empty to try to get through a potential force". Xantid Swarm stops us from casting Force.

[alphastryk]

Taking a Burning Wish also stops him from using Ill-Gotten Gains with a tutor in the graveyard.

I don't understand when you say "They are most likely to wish for Empty to try to get through a potential force". Xantid Swarm stops us from casting Force.

I don't know what I'm saying there either, hmm... just ignore that part.

[Lemnear]

Ooh, I like this one, although I should note that I don't like playing the clique here. I'd prefer to lay out explosives and kill the swarm on our turn before passing to keep our force live.

Given, the current situation though, does our opponent know the top card of their library? I see a Ponder in the graveyard, maybe they hid their best card?.

We have to assume our top card is a blank and plan that way, anything else is upside for us. I think the legitimate options here are to take nothing and to take a wish, and I prefer to take a wish. They are most likely to wish for Empty to try to get through a potential force, or Past in Flames which requires the second tutor. If we leave them both wishes, we possibly lose if they can Empty and wish for a discard spell to take our explosives (which, thinking about it, we should have played out for 0 if we weren't going to kill the swarm to make multiple LEDs dead cards) One tutor limits the options that our TES opponent has, and I think we can beat any single wish target with this hand. Our worst case scenario is that another tutor was hidden, in which case our Clique did nothing, and we still could win, but it is unlikely given the BW -> PiF -> Tendrils line our opponent has. Actually, I take that back - worst case scenario is a hidden Ad Nauseum, which our hand likely can't beat. I like our odds though since it looks like our opponent was planning to win this turn.

Wrong analysis. EtW isn't the storm players plan against a deck with potential Terminus, S.Verdict, Detention Sphere, E.Explosives.

It's pretty unlikely to float Ad Nauseam, so the potential lines here are PIF or Dim.Ret. If you take a tutor, nothing stops them from spinning the Dim.Ret. Roulette (asuming you can't counter the Petal) which likely kills you with the available 3 mana float.

The correct choice is to take the Ritual and strip them from PIF and Returns (they have a maximum of 1 mana float) at the same time while being able to deal with Goblins.



Edit: please check current storm-sideboards. IGG isn't even played anymore

[klaus]

Show your work :)
I'm with alphastryk on this one. Not killing Swarm with EE to keep FoW alive is a punt.
You have tons of superb Storm hate in your hand, surviving that one turn as described above will put you way ahead.

[Einherjer]

I'm with alphastryk on this one. Not killing Swarm with EE to keep FoW alive is a punt.
You have tons of superb Storm hate in your hand, surviving that one turn as described above will put you way ahead.

Agreed, but in this very scenario taking the Dark Ritual is probably the correct choice.

Greetings

[Dzra]

http://i.imgur.com/uB7AGN2.png

We can't take nothing because that means they kill us rather easily with PIF into Tendrils.

Taking a Wish stops them from grabbing Ill-Gotten Gains, but means that they can still Diminishing Returns rather easily.

Taking Petals or Rite of Flame seems bad since there is plenty of Red mana and Dark Ritual is just better.

Taking the Dark Ritual means that IGG or Past in Flames into Tendrils won't work because there isn't enough Black mana (or mana in general). Their only lines at this point are make 10-12 Goblins (which unknowingly kills them) or go for Diminishing Returns with only Lotus Petal left up.

[lordofthepit]

I take the Dark Ritual here. You can make a case for taking Rite in Flames, since it makes future Rites weaker, but I'd rather bottleneck their black sources.

Assuming they don't rip another mana source off the Clique, this gives them access to 7 mana this turn if all their fast mana resolves, which doesn't allow them to do anything too scary with Burning Wish, since they're unlikely to try to short-storm with Tendrils and you have the Empty the Warrens plan covered by the explosives. Essentially, if the top card of your library is a 0, 1, 2, or 4, you're probably in pretty good shape.

[Poron]

if your top card is 1cc: Wish
if 2cc Ritual
if blank: Ritual

but you put yourself in a week position. and you have also wasted your pressure win-con

[YamiJoey]

if your top card is 1cc: Wish
if 2cc Ritual
if blank: Ritual

but you put yourself in a week position. and you have also wasted your pressure win-con

It doesn't matter. You can't counter anything anyway.

EDIT: Holy shit I just read Xanthid Swarm for the first time. That's relatively frustrating.

[Rook1e]

Hi guys.

I'm going to a 100+ tournament this sunday. I'm expecting a the following strategies to make up most of the meta:

D&T, Stoneblade (TNN Variants) ANT and SnT

This is my current list and what i thought could be a decent sb. But wanted to get some inputs from you guys :D

Land (23)
2x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas
2x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Sorcery (6)
2x Entreat the Angels
4x Terminus

Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (5)
3x Counterbalance
1x Moat
1x Rest in Peace

Planeswalker (4)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (3)
3x Vendilion Clique

Sideboard (15)
1x Aura of Silence
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Mountain
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
2x Sulfur Elemental
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
2x Wear / Tear

I'm looking forward to hearing from you all

/Rook

[JPoJohnson]

An interesting scenario came up in Joe's Miracle stream tonite.

It's Game 3 versus The EPIC Storm. We made a misplay by letting Xantid Swarm resolve, then decided to jump in front of it with Clique and hopefully disrupt on the combo player's Turn 3. He has not made a land drop, and Storm is 1 (Clique).

http://i.imgur.com/uB7AGN2.png
Show your work :)

What I want to know is this: Why not cast Brainstorm in response and be able to somewhat control what the top card would be at that point? I think there's a much greater chance of the storm player holding redundancy in his hand than being able to beat a 1 or 2 perma-counter trigger for his turn. Am I mistaken? Placing Counterspell back on top means that I need 1 of 60 cards in my hand (Ad Nauseam) and finding and placing a 1CMC back on top shuts down cantrips/rituals. I think putting a 2CMC blind on top would be a good choice and would most likely burn through several of their rituals and a tutor in one go.

Edit: Also curious - What did you end up taking and what was the result?

[twndomn]

Hi guys.

I'm going to a 100+ tournament this sunday. I'm expecting a the following strategies to make up most of the meta:

D&T, Stoneblade (TNN Variants) ANT and SnT

Planeswalker (4)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (3)
3x Vendilion Clique

Sideboard (15)
1x Aura of Silence
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Mountain
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
2x Sulfur Elemental
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
2x Wear / Tear
I'm looking forward to hearing from you all
/Rook

Elspeth is pretty mediocre for the recent meta. TNN would beat her up pretty badly, DnT would give you a hard time to get to 4 Mana with WW available. It's also useless against combos, which you say there will be ANT and SnT. If you have a Blood Moon and you want to have a basic Mountain to be able to play Blood Moon without fearing wasteland, I would understand. Without further explanation, I don't see the need of basic mountain. Again, I don't see how that basic mountain would help you against ANT and SnT.

[Koby]

What I want to know is this: Why not cast Brainstorm in response and be able to somewhat control what the top card would be at that point? I think there's a much greater chance of the storm player holding redundancy in his hand than being able to beat a 1 or 2 perma-counter trigger for his turn. Am I mistaken? Placing Counterspell back on top means that I need 1 of 60 cards in my hand (Ad Nauseam) and finding and placing a 1CMC back on top shuts down cantrips/rituals. I think putting a 2CMC blind on top would be a good choice and would most likely burn through several of their rituals and a tutor in one go.

Edit: Also curious - What did you end up taking and what was the result?

I cannot answer these questions as I was not piloting the deck. Those questions should be addressed to oarsman.

My understanding of the premise was: we need to kill Xantid Swarm and have limited time to do so. Joe reasoned to not counter the Swarm (mistake), so this fixes that mistake and hedges that TES does not have the kill this turn. Clique allows two form of disruption: disrupt the hand, and kill the Swarm. Playing Brainstorm only stops TES from going off this turn, and would not repair the Swarm situation for next turn.

As for what happened -- who cares? A well reasoned decision can stand on its own regardless of how the situation played out.

[YamiJoey]

Killing Swarm is relevant, but we also need a win-con. We currently have no active cards here, and we do not have a land. Casting a Brainstorm now may allow us to put some counters on the top of our deck, but it allows the TES player the chance to just keep waiting on us to make a move. They can wish for outs to CB if we don't put a 2 on top, which leaves us another turn with no lands, and then we're topping into dead cards again.

I think killing the Swarm without using Brainstorm is how we win this game. If I had more time to think about it there's probably a solution, but I'n off out so whatever.

[JPoJohnson]

Killing Swarm is relevant, but we also need a win-con. We currently have no active cards here, and we do not have a land. Casting a Brainstorm now may allow us to put some counters on the top of our deck, but it allows the TES player the chance to just keep waiting on us to make a move. They can wish for outs to CB if we don't put a 2 on top, which leaves us another turn with no lands, and then we're topping into dead cards again.

I think killing the Swarm without using Brainstorm is how we win this game. If I had more time to think about it there's probably a solution, but I'n off out so whatever.

We would most likely burn a few cards from their hand ritual-ing into a countered Tutor, maybe even take an LED and it would take them quite a few turns to rebuild that. I think keeping the Clique for the next attack/EEing it and burning a good chunk of their hand is a much better potential line?

[Rook1e]

Elspeth is pretty mediocre for the recent meta. TNN would beat her up pretty badly, DnT would give you a hard time to get to 4 Mana with WW available. It's also useless against combos, which you say there will be ANT and SnT. If you have a Blood Moon and you want to have a basic Mountain to be able to play Blood Moon without fearing wasteland, I would understand. Without further explanation, I don't see the need of basic mountain. Again, I don't see how that basic mountain would help you against ANT and SnT.

The reason Elspeth is in there is that i often wanted another threat, and so far i have been glad to see her everytime i found her.

The basic mountain is there mostly for the D&T matchup, but also for the UWR Delver matchups. Beeing able to cast my red spells are crucial in these matchups in my experience.

[Valtrix]

The reason Elspeth is in there is that i often wanted another threat, and so far i have been glad to see her everytime i found her.

I would play 4 Entreats before I play Elspeth (and for you, that would only be the third Entreat). Even if it's a lot of miracles in your deck, the sheer power of Entreat cannot be matched (in my opinion). I find more and more that it has the power to win games that I simply could not win otherwise, and for this I really value the card. Especially now that True Name Nemesis is a card, I think Elspeth is significantly weaker since a Nemesis can kill her in two attacks. With Entreat, you can either block a lot of creatures (at instant speed, probably getting card advantage), or straight up racing.

[Cipher]

An interesting scenario came up in Joe's Miracle stream tonite.

It's Game 3 versus The EPIC Storm. We made a misplay by letting Xantid Swarm resolve, then decided to jump in front of it with Clique and hopefully disrupt on the combo player's Turn 3. He has not made a land drop, and Storm is 1 (Clique).

http://i.imgur.com/uB7AGN2.png

What do you take, and why?
Assume that the Sideboard for BWish has no limit, and any Sorcery could be used.
We don't know what card is on top of the deck.

Show your work :)

My first thought was to take the Wish, since he couldn't kill you this turn and could very well get spooked by the Counterbalance into firing off a desperation Empty the Warrens. As someone pointed out, though, the correct play for your opponent is probably a low percentage gamble on Diminishing Returns, so if you just take the ritual then you ensure that you untap with double counters up plus a semi-blind counterbalance.

It still seems close, though, and I'm thinking a lot of Storm players would fire off the goblins. I'm not an expert on Storm so I can't call whether it's the right play. Miracles list should only have 2-3 ways to kill the goblins post board, and how risky is going all-in on Diminishing Returns with only 3 mana floating? Leaving 2 Wishes that you can't counter this turn is hardly good, either. If he cashes one in for Past in Flames, he's got your 2 counterspells beat and it's on you to topdeck or get a Top in play. What if Duress or Therapy is on top of his deck? You left him double Burning Wish so his draws are ridiculously live. If he chooses to cash in a Wish for Past in Flames even him drawing more mana beats you, assuming you whiff on your next two or so draw steps.

[Cipher]

Edit: please check current storm-sideboards. IGG isn't even played anymore

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/57406

...actually did a bit of searching for a sideboard that didn't have Ill-Gotten Gains. But if Ari and Cook both run it, I'm just assuming it's standard issue.

[Lemnear]

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/57406

...actually did a bit of searching for a sideboard that didn't have Ill-Gotten Gains. But if Ari and Cook both run it, I'm just assuming it's standard issue.

You didn't need to search very long: just take a look at his current SB posted in his thread in this forum. It's gone for quite a while: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm

[Valtrix]

It's gone for quite a while:[/URL]

2 months is hardly "quite awhile" in terms of the speed at which Legacy decks tend to evolve. Note also that the original problem said, "Assume that the Sideboard for BWish has no limit, and any Sorcery could be used."

[Koby]

2 months is hardly "quite awhile" in terms of the speed at which Legacy decks tend to evolve. Note also that the original problem said, "Assume that the Sideboard for BWish has no limit, and any Sorcery could be used."

Right, basically as the Miracles player, you might have working knowledge of TES but not exact information. Based on the given board state, and a slew of potential options - how do you maximize the chances of you winning in light of seeing a super stacked hand that can combo off.

I've posted some thoughts from the TES perspective in this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=767451&viewfull=1#post767451). (mtgthesource.com)

[Dzra]

Right, basically as the Miracles player, you might have working knowledge of TES but not exact information. Based on the given board state, and a slew of potential options - how do you maximize the chances of you winning in light of seeing a super stacked hand that can combo off.

I've posted some thoughts from the TES perspective in this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23361-Deck-T-E-S-The-EPIC-Storm&p=767451&viewfull=1#post767451). (mtgthesource.com)

Although this isn't too relevant to the original question, I'm pretty sure that TES is just dead if there is either a 0, 1, 2, or 4 on top for Counterbalance. 1 and 2 are obvious, but 4 means that they can't Diminishing Returns, IGG, or PIF. 0 means that they would have to Dimishing Returns with zero mana floating and unable to cast 0-drops. The ideal line is to force them into Emptying and then just get them. Also, I dislike playing out the EE for 0 because this let's them know that Empty isn't good enough and TES doesn't pack too much discard anyways.

[klaus]

Hi guys...
Hey Rook1e I edited in some thoughts.

Land (23)
2x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas - unusual choice, but seems legit given a considerable showing of S&T.
2x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Sorcery (6)
2x Entreat the Angels - many players who've switched to 3 haven't looked back, though your meta seems like 2 could indeed be the correct number
4x Terminus - given TNN is a thing, I'd make sure too have 2-3 Supreme Verdicts in your 75. I currently go with: 2 Terminus 2 Verdict MD // 1 Verdict, 1 Terminus SB

Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (5)
3x Counterbalance
1x Moat - D&T will pack more fliers than usual to race TNN just like the top16 versions at BoM, and Stoneblade has Cliques and Strixs, making Moat a suboptimal MD choice imo. I'd definitely replace it with STP/CB #4
1x Rest in Peace - since you don't seem to predict many graveyard-based decks, I'd suggest bin this and replace it with EE, which will shine against TNN & DnT

Planeswalker (4)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (3)
3x Vendilion Clique - 3 Cliques seem legit due to the rise of Combo.

Sideboard (15)
1x Aura of Silence - you already have 2 Wear/Tear and 1WW can be tough to achieve against D&T. I reckon you want to bring that in against SnT and Combo as well, but I'm sure cheaper choices that are just as valuable (Flusterstorm, etc.)
1x Engineered Explosives - if you rock one in the MD you can cut your SB EE, and replace it with more dedicated hate
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Mountain
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
2x Sulfur Elemental - while this guy is cute, I'd definitely go with Terminus #3/4 & Supreme Verdict #2/3 for those slots.
1x Venser, Shaper Savant - I don't really like this guy - if you're looking for S&T hate, Humility seems just better
2x Wear / Tear

peace,
j

[Lemnear]

I'm not convinced that fighting over TNN is smart if you can easily race the guy and his potential Equipment with 2 Angels

[Poron]

we have to keep a way to deal with equipment way more than before.

we have white for that.. shouldn't be a problem

[klaus]

we have to keep a way to deal with equipment way more than before.
we have white for that.. shouldn't be a problem

Good point. 2 Wear/Tear 1-2 Needle, 1-2 EE (MD) should do the trick though, no?
Then again EE is not considered to be part of the core by many.
They've been working great for me ever since my times as a Landstiller. :cool:

[Poron]

don't know wear/tear.. I still think Deluge and Thief are sexy.

Thief kills Griselbrand / Omnishow matchup, while putting up a decent clock either

[klaus]

don't know wear/tear.. I still think Deluge and Thief are sexy.
Thief kills Griselbrand / Omnishow matchup, while putting up a decent clock either

imo Thief has been discarded even by StoneBlade due to lack of applications/CMC4.
Ethersworn Canonist does similar things and more at half the cost, plus in-colour.

@ Deluge:
Someone wise said that 1 mana less (-> Supreme Verdict) does not justify the life loss in a hardcore control deck that wins on 1-5 life more often than not AND has access to Legacy's best sweepers.
Also, REB handles TNN nicely too.

[bryanzoll]

Hi guys.

I'm going to a 100+ tournament this sunday. I'm expecting a the following strategies to make up most of the meta:

D&T, Stoneblade (TNN Variants) ANT and SnT

This is my current list and what i thought could be a decent sb. But wanted to get some inputs from you guys :D

Land (23)
2x Arid Mesa
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Karakas
2x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island

Sorcery (6)
2x Entreat the Angels
4x Terminus

Artifact (4)
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (15)
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
1x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (5)
3x Counterbalance
1x Moat
1x Rest in Peace

Planeswalker (4)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (3)
3x Vendilion Clique

Sideboard (15)
1x Aura of Silence
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Mountain
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rest in Peace
2x Sulfur Elemental
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
2x Wear / Tear

I'm looking forward to hearing from you all

/Rook

I would cut the main deck Rest in Peace and put in a main deck humility. I would also cut the red, add 2 basics in place of the volcanics. In the sideboard replace 2 wear/tear with disenchant, REB/Pyro/Sulfur with 2 swan song and 3 meddling mages.

[klaus]

I would cut the main deck Rest in Peace and put in a main deck humility. I would also cut the red, add 2 basics in place of the volcanics. In the sideboard replace 2 wear/tear with disenchant, REB/Pyro/Sulfur with 2 swan song and 3 meddling mages.

Not trying act like a mod, but suggesting unusual choices such as MD Humility and SB MM should be backed by answers to "why?".

[YamiJoey]

MM isn't that weird.

I'd only main Humility if I was facing loads of S/T or other stuff Humility is good against, and I was playing a hard RiP Helm variant. As in only playing a single Entreat and double Tutor with Moat or some other Enchantress-like build.

[Dzra]

Hi guys.

I'm going to a 100+ tournament this sunday. I'm expecting a the following strategies to make up most of the meta:

D&T, Stoneblade (TNN Variants) ANT and SnT

I'd probably cut the MD RIP and Elspeth for the 4th CB and 4th Swords. You can afford to move the Moat to the SB if you wanted the 3rd Entreat MD, but it's really not that bad MD. In the SB Aura of Silence, Mountain, and at least the second Sulfur Elemental are all pretty weak in my opinion. You should try to fit in a Supreme Verdict and I still like Pyroclasm for Death and Taxes and Elves. An Enlightened Tutor in the SB can be nice to increase the density of your RIPs, Moat, and Ethersworn.

[Cipher]

What are people's thoughts on running Explosives over Disenchant or Wear/Tear? I suppose you can run multiple copies of both, but I was running a 1/1 split and recently made them both Explosives. The Wear/Tear first became a Disenchant when I realized that it was basically Shatter 90% of the time which required I fetch the worst land in the deck. Not too long after, a second Explosives just seemed stronger against Stoneforge decks, anyhow...and Delver, and Death & Taxes. I know Joe is already running a 2/2 split, so I wouldn't expect any more Explosives than that, but perhaps some people aren't so heavy on non-creature permanent hate?

[klaus]

Alright guys, I'm gonna go there. TNN - yep, you heard me right.. The idea of giving this blue idiot a miraculous spin has been lurking in the back of my mind for a while now and was tenaciously discarded - until today.
I'm going to try to keep this short just so that the TNN haters don't have to puke all over their screens and keyboards more than twice.

Feels like a dejavu, doesn't it? Some of you might recall the Tarmo hype back in the day when everyone started implementing Lhurgoyfs into any kind of archetypes - heck even Goblins and Landstill! My initial inspiration to try this rather dumb approach dates back a little further though, namely 15 years to a dude from Urza's Saga.

Any educated blue Control player probably was reminded of Morphling when TNN got spoiled. But before I briefly dip into a comparison, let me assure you that I'm aware that times have changed and there are some actual reasons Morphling is not being played anymore. Anywho, let's list some specs.




Mr. M.
Mr. N.


CMC 5

sort of flying

semi-shroud

can cause up to 5 dmg / turn

blocks dudes up to 4 power and lives to tell the tale
CMC 3

unblockable

shroud

will cause at least 3 dmg / turn

blocks a 20/20 KotR like a champ



Alright cool, so TNN wins this comparison handily, but does that really warrant testing in Miracles.dec, which never gave a damn about Mr. M in the first place? And even if so, what among the ultra tight 75 could ever be cut for TNN's sake?
Well there's 1 spell that's an obvious candidate: EtA. And while I'm aware that those heavenly tokens have become a vital part of the core, both spells fulfill similar roles - so let's compare them real quick:





EtA

Mr. N.


at least CMC 3 including WW

requires setup aka Top
but can be cast at instant speed

terrible earlygame
OK midgame
superb lategame

Spell Piercable

flying

---------------------

can end the game in one turn
max. CMC 3 (on-colour)

-------------------
-------------------

OK earlygame
good midgame
OK lategame

--------------------

unblockable, shroud

pitchable to FoW

will end the game in a grindier way




I have to admit TNN does not win that comparison really, but does he lose? Maybe - only testing will tell. This is the list that I'm going to give a spin tonight:

4 BS
4 FoW
4 CB
4 Top
4 Jace
4 STP
2 Terminus
2 Supreme Verdict
2 CS
3 TNN
1 Vendilion Clique
1 EtA
1 EE
[37]

23 awesome mana sources

SB:
3 RiP
3 REB
2 Canonist
2 Wear/Tear
2 Pithing Needle
2 Terminus
1 meta slot

Thanks for your patience. I'll let you know about my testing stuff soon.
Now let the bashing begin :)

[Lemnear]

Carsten Kotter came up at the BoM with that idea just to use TNN as a wall till you can drop a bunch of Angels and just win. The list in question however had the full set of EtA and no more Terminus

[twndomn]

The hard part is not jamming TNN in, the hard part is what to take out. I wouldn't touch any removals. Looks like the only spot is to compete against Clique spot. Before we debate TNN vs Clique, the use of that creature slot is vastly different in Rip-Helm and Legend-Angel builds.

If the Rip-Helm build only has 1 or 2 Clique, I can see why people would give TNN a shot. However, both Clique and TNN are vulnerable to Liliana, and lots of people underestimate Flash. I don't see TNN in Legend-Angel builds at this point in time.

[YamiJoey]

I'm not playing it when I could have Flash / Flying instead. I don't think it's better than Clique. EtA can end the game in one turn, and seeing as we are basically sweepers and counterspells.dek, being Instant Speed and not having to lose value when you Terminus the board because it isn't hitting for 16 a turn and so isn't getting you there is quite important.

There's basically never a point where I want TNN in my deck whilst I'm playing Terminus and Supreme Verdict. If I was playing Counter Top + Stoneforge, with Jace Battserksull, and Entreat as win conditions, I'd look into it. I quite like the idea, but seeing as I simply don't plan on getting any TNN's any time soon and I've still not actually got all of my cards I need for Paris in my current built, I'm going to stick with a more traditional build.

[Dzra]

... I need for Paris in my current built, I'm going to stick with a more traditional build.

I've never actually been to a foreign tournament, but since my sister lives in Paris, I'm really thinking about that one. Is there likely to be any sort of language barrier type problem?

[Lemnear]

I've never actually been to a foreign tournament, but since my sister lives in Paris, I'm really thinking about that one. Is there likely to be any sort of language barrier type problem?

Sure is there one if you go to the supermarket or even the local Information-Center, but if you move along the typical Tourist-paths, you'll sure survive with english. At the tournament itself, almost everyone speaks englisch or at least "Magic": everyone knows what "bounce", "attack", etc. means even if they otherwise don't speak a single word of englisch. Judges will assist if there are language problems and even translate at your table if really needed. Never had any issues concerning the Language there

[warai]

Most of the time, when you cast entreat you put no less than 2 angels on the Battlefield.
This way you finish effectively the game in 1-3 turns after you established control.
You run other Snapcaster/Clique and sometimes they acts as finishers but your ideal scenario G1 is Jace kill or EtA kill.

TNN is a more grindy card and it isn't a finisher in miracles. It takes lots of turns for him to kill your opponent, which means he can be back in the game with the extra turns given.

Also another reason to avoid running TNN MB is you want to be able to cast a Terminus and not worry about what is on the table, which means you don't want to remove your own TNN.

I will definitely try 2 TNN SB to act as a blocking creature - Batterskull/Goyf, but in no way it will act as a consistent finisher.

I might be wrong.



Alright guys, I'm gonna go there. TNN - yep, you heard me right.. The idea of giving this blue idiot a miraculous spin has been lurking in the back of my mind for a while now and was tenaciously discarded - until today.
I'm going to try to keep this short just so that the TNN haters don't have to puke all over their screens and keyboards more than twice.

Feels like a dejavu, doesn't it? Some of you might recall the Tarmo hype back in the day when everyone started implementing Lhurgoyfs into any kind of archetypes - heck even Goblins and Landstill! My initial inspiration to try this rather dumb approach dates back a little further though, namely 15 years to a dude from Urza's Saga.

Any educated blue Control player probably was reminded of Morphling when TNN got spoiled. But before I briefly dip into a comparison, let me assure you that I'm aware that times have changed and there are some actual reasons Morphling is not being played anymore. Anywho, let's list some specs.




Mr. M.
Mr. N.


CMC 5

sort of flying

semi-shroud

can cause up to 5 dmg / turn

blocks dudes up to 4 power and lives to tell the tale
CMC 3

unblockable

shroud

will cause at least 3 dmg / turn

blocks a 20/20 KotR like a champ



Alright cool, so TNN wins this comparison handily, but does that really warrant testing in Miracles.dec, which never gave a damn about Mr. M in the first place? And even if so, what among the ultra tight 75 could ever be cut for TNN's sake?
Well there's 1 spell that's an obvious candidate: EtA. And while I'm aware that those heavenly tokens have become a vital part of the core, both spells fulfill similar roles - so let's compare them real quick:





EtA

Mr. N.


at least CMC 3 including WW

requires setup aka Top
but can be cast at instant speed

terrible earlygame
OK midgame
superb lategame

Spell Piercable

flying

---------------------

can end the game in one turn
max. CMC 3 (on-colour)

-------------------
-------------------

OK earlygame
good midgame
OK lategame

--------------------

unblockable, shroud

pitchable to FoW

will end the game in a grindier way




I have to admit TNN does not win that comparison really, but does he lose? Maybe - only testing will tell. This is the list that I'm going to give a spin tonight:

4 BS
4 FoW
4 CB
4 Top
4 Jace
4 STP
2 Terminus
2 Supreme Verdict
2 CS
3 TNN
1 Vendilion Clique
1 EtA
1 EE
[37]

23 awesome mana sources

SB:
3 RiP
3 REB
2 Canonist
2 Wear/Tear
2 Pithing Needle
2 Terminus
1 meta slot

Thanks for your patience. I'll let you know about my testing stuff soon.
Now let the bashing begin :)

[YamiJoey]

I've never actually been to a foreign tournament, but since my sister lives in Paris, I'm really thinking about that one. Is there likely to be any sort of language barrier type problem?

You'll be fine. Europe is a cool place, and city centres are easy enough to navigate.

[klaus]

Most of the time, when you cast entreat you put no less than 2 angels on the Battlefield.
This way you finish effectively the game in 1-3 turns after you established control.
You run other Snapcaster/Clique and sometimes they acts as finishers but your ideal scenario G1 is Jace kill or EtA kill.
All of the above is correct. The advantage TNN has over EtA though is that he comes down and has an impact on the board position much earlier, while not being susceptible to Pierce, which is actually a major plus given the future meta, featuring more and more blue tempo strategies.


Also another reason to avoid running TNN MB is you want to be able to cast a Terminus and not worry about what is on the table, which means you don't want to remove your own TNN.
That's actually an argument in favor of TNN: good players won't overextend against Miracles, and hold back creatures to follow up on a sweeper. However TNN forces them to do exactly that, which completely mitigates the point of card disadvantage.

[Poron]

overall the only counters that see actual play are Pierce, Daze and FoW (+ random Counterspell)

if you can play around Daze, you only fear FoW (and we pack our 4 too...)

EtA is both mana intensive and Spell Pierceable

[warai]

You normally cast EtA with counter backup or established board control.
It doesn't matter if it is mana intensive on a deck with so much filtering. It is rare for you to miss a land drop.



overall the only counters that see actual play are Pierce, Daze and FoW (+ random Counterspell)

if you can play around Daze, you only fear FoW (and we pack our 4 too...)

EtA is both mana intensive and Spell Pierceable

[klaus]

You normally cast EtA with counter backup or established board control.
It doesn't matter if it is mana intensive on a deck with so much filtering. It is rare for you to miss a land drop.

So let's just add Emrakul, since CMC does not matter, cause we hardly ever miss a land drop.
Kidding aside, irl you will have to wait forever to able to safely cast EtA against the increasing amount of decks packing Pierce/Daze, unless you're desperate and it's your only out.
That being said, I'm hesitant to push this idea further before being able to present thorough test results. All I was trying to get across atm, is that it looks like it could be cool.

[Poron]

another thing is that decks that follow mana denial strategy are increasing in amount.
DnT is always more common, RUG and URW packs 4 Wasteland and often Stifle too...

against those decks it might be safe to side out EtA for more Clique / TNN / SnapMage

[Aetherick]

Replacing Clique or Entreat with True Name nemesis will probably make the deck a lot weaker to any Liliana deck.

Tapping out to play it makes you just lose to a Liliana.

When Liliana is ticking up, if you find an entreat (she's dead) or a Clique (you have a chance to flash it in and hit her loyalty).
True Name Nemesis will only ever buy you 2 loyalty as he will die instantly.

[Poron]

unless it is played alongside Clique, unless you side it in when you're not against decks which might play Liliana and Toxic Deluge or Golgari Charm...

[Aetherick]

If you're not using it against any midrange bgx deck what is this card for? delver decks? goblins? merfolk?
Besides RUG, they can all get past a single blocker (that can't block flying) easily.

[Poron]

don't know. It kills Mongoose and chump blocks Tarmogoyf next turn.

ah yes, 4 StP are a thing.

[YamiJoey]

The card is a poor excuse for a Moat as far as I can tell. I just don't think it does anything. It is simply never better than a Clique or Venser as far as I can tell, and they are not on the top of everyone's lists.

[Poron]

against some deck, in my opinion, it can make the difference. Anyway, just testing will tell..

[mith]

Has anyone tried out Runed Halo as a versatile and quick answer to TNN? As a one-of in the board, it can come in versus quite a few matchups.

[alphastryk]

Has anyone tried out Runed Halo as a versatile and quick answer to TNN? As a one-of in the board, it can come in versus quite a few matchups.

Just play a Moat.

[Cipher]

don't know. It kills Mongoose and chump blocks Tarmogoyf next turn.

ah yes, 4 StP are a thing.

This is a good point. It could be a Sulfur Elemental style card that can come in against "fair" decks. Running it maindeck sounds weak, since it would be dead cards 9-12 against Combo decks (I know it attacks for damage, but without Cliques ETB trigger, it's just a 3/1).

It's definitely weaker than Moat, but Moat is $300 and can be Spell Pierce'd.

[Valtrix]

This is a good point. It could be a Sulfur Elemental style card that can come in against "fair" decks. Running it maindeck sounds weak, since it would be dead cards 9-12 against Combo decks (I know it attacks for damage, but without Cliques ETB trigger, it's just a 3/1)..

This is true, but can also be a little deceptive. If True-Name Nemesis is replacing non-blue cards, then the fact that TNN is blue is actually useful against combo, because you can save all your other blue cards (which are relevant against combo!) to actually cast and not pitch to force of will. Not really a strong argument either way for the card, but I think it's worth noting because running cards which can handle creatures and are blue themselves (I've been using Strix) really does give a noticeable amount of more flexibility when casting force of will, compared to running things that aren't blue in its place.

I don't really think TNN is great for strictly Miracles, but I've really been considering an esperblade/miracles hybrid lately, taking my favorite parts from both of the decks. I don't really get to play much, so I won't really be able to test, but I would consider something like:

//16 Win-cons
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//21 Spells
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Swords to plowshares

//23 Land
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
6 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas/Other

Which looks pretty powerful to me. I think something like this would be a bit more appropriate if you want a Miracle-type build with TNN, since I think he really compliments a SFM-approach more than the standard miracles list. Even without running TNN, and running some other blue utility creature, I still really like the idea of a list like this.

Compared to traditional miracles you cut some of your hard answers (Terminus, Counterspell, etc.) for some soft answers (Batterskull, TNN, strix) which will double as your win-conditions. Overall you have a much higher threat density, but all of your threats here will help you defensively too. Another thing that I really like about this list is 4 Entreats, because I believe that it's one of the most powerful cards we can run. Here, 4 Entreat makes sense compared to traditional Miracle lists, because you only have 4 miracles to worry about ever clogging your draws. Plus, there are a lot of creature removal targets, so you don't really feel too bad about one of a few creatures in your list getting killed and there's not really a question of generating virtual card advantage by not running (m)any creatures. Where this is particularly relevant in my opinion is in making mini-entreats. It's much safer with all your other cards, so you can make some instant speed angels to try and create advantage/board impact much sooner than you might have felt comfortable with otherwise.

Although this is perhaps a bit far from a miracles list, such and idea really interests me. I haven't tested a list like this, but if I were to have an upcoming tournament, I would probably test and (assuming pretty good testing) play a list somewhat close to what I put above.

[YamiJoey]

I may look into playing something UWR-esque that plays Countertop and stuff like Thunderous Wrath, and possibly Bonfires. More of an aggressive Miracles strategy than we're used to.

But of course it's probably terrible.

[Poron]

This is a good point. It could be a Sulfur Elemental style card that can come in against "fair" decks. Running it maindeck sounds weak, since it would be dead cards 9-12 against Combo decks (I know it attacks for damage, but without Cliques ETB trigger, it's just a 3/1).

It's definitely weaker than Moat, but Moat is $300 and can be Spell Pierce'd.

this.

it can be spell pierced. and with Daze and Fow that's the only counter I actually see every day.

Daze is easy to play around and FoW can be Pierced/etc. in many matchups, high cc non creature cards, are very weak.

Against RUG or URW (4 Wasteland, 4 Stifle, 4 Daze 3-4 Pierce) Jace and Moat are almost helpless... as is EtA. To have a better matchup we should go TNN in those matchup (imho)

Sulfur Elemental is another good piece against DnT for the same reason.

[YamiJoey]

Who the hell is resolving 1CC Instants when we're actually trying to cast our Entreats? As far as I was aware Entreat was mostly being used as a finisher. We're not tapping out at 5 for it, we're making 4 Angels and leaving up additional mana for countermagic and things.

Unless that's just me. I mean walk into Spell Pierces if you want but I'm going to play real Magic.

TNN does almost nothong against UWR except race. 10 out of their 11 threats cannot be blocked by it, so I'm not sure what it's doing there. Seems okay against RUG Delver, I'll give you that, though. There we just have to worry about Delverd once we can actually resolve a TNN.

[Poron]

really? so against DnT RUG and URW you can reach 6 (EtA) +2 (open for Pierce) = 8 mana?

really? then I'm a bad player
Against RUG it just blocks everything but Delver and opponent's TNN, the same with URW (or I'm missing something?)

Anyway, yes, I agree that to take TNN and throw it like that in our list seems weak (and it is, or better it's surely suboptimal, but if we find a way to give it a thicker body (same with Clique) it can be better and a reliable WC.

Overall, at least, in those matchups (DnT, RUG, URW) where EtA or Jace are veeeery weak. Against those 3 decks I prefer to win by cheap mana (because of mana denial strategy) creatures (because of Pierce)

-2 EtA
-3 Jace
+3 TNN

+2 Equipment?

[YamiJoey]

I didn't know if RUG had gone to TNN or not. As far as I was aware they simply ignored it in their perfectly mental shell of never playing anything that costs more than 2.

And you reach 6+ mana by the time your Entreat is relevant. Step 1 is killing MoR, step 2 is killing everything else on the battlefield. We have ways of dealin with most of their cards, and I'm actually not too bothered about D/T. Prison plays into our hands when they're not affecting our Fetchlands, as we can just go grab whatever we need. Post board we have one of our Land-interaction packages to mess with Port, and the additional answers to Vial and we're fine.

At no point is any game of Legacy actually easy, and every deck can beat us, but you have to know what's important and play towards that. They can't interact well with a lot of our cards, and Revoker is by far the most devastating card they can resolve against us at times, but we have a million things to do at any given point, seeing as they're not discarding cards from your hand. D/T is probably one of our better MU's, as all of their Enchantments also have a P/T.

Depending in what else is in your deck Imm not keen on playing Equipment. It's weak to Pierces, and is also dead without your other combo piece. It's also not actually game-ending, seeing as they're in the business of making it hard for you to cast Spells early, not late. Once you start getting to 3/4 mana, you're basically over the worst of it, and they can use Flickerwisps and MoR to get their Creatures at your face for the last few damages. I don't think that it's strong enough to justify the slots in the end.

[klaus]

lol, I actually came to not like TNN in Miracles after some battlefield trips.
He indeed is clunky and does not provide enough utility to warrant further testing. The only thing he's good at is being a critter wall. Then again he doesn't do sh** against Delvers, Bobs, Flickerwisps, opposing TNNs..., which is why I'd rather have more Ponders/EEs/Cliques/SCMs/S. Verdicts.
kthxbye.

[Poron]

if you live it as a wall, yes, it's bad.

in my idea, it is an additional win-con in those matchups that put pressure on mana and play pierce/daze.

in those matchup an equipped tnn imho (alongside Clique) is way better then Jace and EtA.

but this needs equipment

[klaus]

if you live it as a wall, yes, it's bad. in my idea, it is an additional win-con in those matchups that put pressure on mana and play pierce/daze.
in those matchup an equipped tnn imho (alongside Clique) is way better then Jace and EtA.
but this needs equipment

I agree, however going with equipment is so so, if your creature count is below 10. Obviously SFM & TNN are Legacy's new dream team and I play test several incarnations to find a perfect home for 4 TNN, 4 SFM, 4 BS, 4 FoW, & 2-3 equipments. There are other threads for this though.

[Poron]

I'm just saying that this new card might improve some of our worst matchups and this would require some more testing (and combinations) and commitment before trashing the idea.

[Dzra]

TNN wants to be attacking, not blocking. In Legacy, a do-nothing-stall-the-board TNN will quickly get overrun by swarms or outclassed by unfair things. TNN wants to be equipped and pairs well with SFM. I just don't think either of these things are where a dedicated control deck wants to be. UWR and Deathblade seem like the best homes for it and it's likely that all the UWx midranged TNN decks will even end up cutting back or dropping Jaces for more aggression. In Miracles, Moat just plain seems better.

[Windmill]

Hi guys,

So I am a Merfolk player. We have a Miracles regular in my (small) meta. I'm trying to think about this match-up and what I can do to improve it as it seems like a tough match-up with your mass-removal (and now uncounterable). Your help would be greatly appreciated - thank you :)


What cards do you fear most in Merfolk, and why?
When you face Merfolk, what is your strategy you employ against it?
Have you ever lost to Merfolk - and why?
What is your sideboarding strategy against Merfolk?
How likely am I to get a T1 Aether Vial to resolve?
Do you have any other tips for me?

Thanks!

[Spaker]

Hi guys,

Just a quick question : why do you think that Moat doesn't see more play in U/W Miracles lists ?
Is it because of the price/difficulty to get it, or because it's not that needed/clunky in some match-up ? A I missing something ?


Regards,

Spaker

[alphastryk]

Hi guys,

Just a quick question : why do you think that Moat doesn't see more play in U/W Miracles lists ?
Is it because of the price/difficulty to get it, or because it's not that needed/clunky in some match-up ? A I missing something ?


Regards,

Spaker

Price. Moat is awesome.

[warai]

I guess you are in enemy territory for merfolk dude :)

But general sideboard rules vs Merfolk:

SB:
-x Force of Will -x Counterspells -x Spell Pierce
+x Humility/Moat +x Supreme Verdict/Sweepers/Target removal




Hi guys,

So I am a Merfolk player. We have a Miracles regular in my (small) meta. I'm trying to think about this match-up and what I can do to improve it as it seems like a tough match-up with your mass-removal (and now uncounterable). Your help would be greatly appreciated - thank you :)


What cards do you fear most in Merfolk, and why?
When you face Merfolk, what is your strategy you employ against it?
Have you ever lost to Merfolk - and why?
What is your sideboarding strategy against Merfolk?
How likely am I to get a T1 Aether Vial to resolve?
Do you have any other tips for me?

Thanks!

[Aetherick]

Hi guys,

Questions



Shot you a pm

[YamiJoey]

I have many lists with Moat in. I have zero sleeves with Moat in. This is a problem.

[alphastryk]

I reccomend purchasing a Moat. The amount of satsfaction you get from casting it is more than worth the price of admission.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

[Aetherick]

I reccomend purchasing a Moat. The amount of satsfaction you get from casting it is more than worth the price of admission.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

Yep. Just bought myself a moat recently and smiles you get from opponents reading the card and sighing are worth it.

[goblinsplayer]

I reccomend purchasing a Moat. The amount of satsfaction you get from casting it is more than worth the price of admission.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

Being a goblins player, I hear it's bad for your health.

[thecrav]

A very late and very quick recap of my GP experience. I'm playing the enchantments build and I'm not posting my list because make your own damned list!

Had 2 byes.

Round 3: Miracles

Sweet, the mirror is usually pretty solid. Nope. Guy is running the Helm combo hard with 4 RiP and 2 Helm main. Game 1 he resolved RiP turn 2 and Helm turn 4. My counterspells had already been spent on other things by then. Game 2 RiP turn 2, Helm turn 5 with activation. Again, no countermagic left. Finished in under ten minutes then went to watch Sean/Nedleeds play against something stupidly janky.

2*-1

Round 4: [Non-shardless] BUG
Game 1 play a Blood Moon turn 3, shutting him off of any further spells. He beats me down with what's already on board. Game 2 I keep a three lander. I play a moon on turn 3 again. We fight over it a couple of times, I draw six lands in a row and then I die. My last turn, I topdeck a Supreme Verdict but can't cast it due to blood moon. He shows me his hand completely full of spells blood moon was blocking.. Turns out he's been playing miracles for a long time and he agrees moon was the best choice and it put off my death a long time, but it wasn't enough to win.

2*-2

Round 5: Shardless BUG
Game 1 he gets tons of dudes and kills me before I get anything going. Game 2 I snap keep a hand that's amazing against BUG creatures. Turn 1 he Thoughtseizes and compliments my keep. Turns out that he's on the planeswalker plan this game and he ults Lili twice before I die to something I don't remember.

2*-3, drop to go get some freaking' sweet penguin tokens made for a friend (http://i.imgur.com/CKdvxQg.jpg)

All in all, I think the deck is good but it completely shat on me. In six games I:

*Didn't win a single one :(
* Flooded out twice in a 21 land deck
* Resolved the countertop combo exactly zero times
* Had e field (2x) and RiP (3x) on the field at the same time for 3 turns total
* Miracled (3x Terminus, 1x Entreat) exactly zero times
* Countered something with counterbalance twice

I'm taking a break for a while because my brain is melting from playing miracles for almost a year solid. Went 3-2 missing top 8 on breakers today with Merfolk. Thanks for all the input everyone's had in the past!

I'm kinda drunk, so this might be wrong or dumb. I don't care because I heart magic. I'll be trying the countertop/helm of awakening combo sometime soon just for lols, but I'm not sure if that fits this thread.

[klaus]

.

I feel ya bro, but lol'd several times while reading your devine comedy :)

[twndomn]

I guess you are in enemy territory for merfolk dude :)

But general sideboard rules vs Merfolk:

SB:
-x Force of Will -x Counterspells -x Spell Pierce
+x Humility/Moat +x Supreme Verdict/Sweepers/Target removal

Why didn't you mention Pyro/REB? It's guaranteed 1-for-1, including standstill on stack, unless the problem is Mutavault.

[Cipher]

Hi guys,

Just a quick question : why do you think that Moat doesn't see more play in U/W Miracles lists ?
Is it because of the price/difficulty to get it, or because it's not that needed/clunky in some match-up ? A I missing something ?


Regards,

Spaker

That's easy. The damn thing is $300. I'm seriously considering actually pulling out my credit card and buying one, which says a lot to how good the card looks to be, cause I'm cheap as all hell.