Miracle Control

[Crimhead]

Not meaning to rush the period of grieving, but seeing as the deck that put up this data doesn't exist, should this thread be eventually moved or even closed?
Seems a Scroll Rack brew (or other salvaging attempt) would deserve it's own thread in Developing Decks.

Edit - not gloating, I am not pleased by this ban.

[Cfetchcaviar]

I'm sorry for your loss. Miracles celebrated the best parts of control magic. It was always a pleasure to shuffle up and play across from y'all.

[Minniehajj]

It's been quite a stretch friends. Many of you have become my friends over the years and have respected my posts here on the source, in attempt to be a light through the muck that this thread normally is. However, with this, I'll be taking a Hiatus from magic, if not quitting altogether.

[Nestalim]

Playing nothing else than Legacy.

I have nothing else than a full Miracle foil.

I drop from this bullshit, for ever. Wotc is bunch of idiot that killed the least of fun I had with this card games.

Have fun now, the format will slowly decay from now.

[wizard_of_gore]

RIP Joe Losset

[ThatDeleuzeGuy]

So long and thanks for all the good times. I'm 95% certain I'm done with magic. There's no pure control deck left to play in magic and this was really it for me. Thanks for all the discussion and advice there was on this board. Now comes the hard part, selling a foiled out miracles deck that suddenly became worthless.

[Gros]

thank you all guys, it was fine and nice, a sad conclusion for a nice story

[CptHaddock]

So long and thanks for all the good times. I'm 95% certain I'm done with magic. There's no pure control deck left to play in magic and this was really it for me. Thanks for all the discussion and advice there was on this board. Now comes the hard part, selling a foiled out miracles deck that suddenly became worthless.

Hello my friend, there used to be this archetype known as UWx blade control that used be the control deck before 1 mana wrath of gods were coupled with the engine of counterbalance and top. Perhaps now you can have more interesting games because you will actually be forced to interact with your opponent on multiple angles.

[say no to scurvy]

RIP my foil signed miracles deck, thanks for the years of memories. I feel though this ban was deserved despite our loss.

[sco0ter]

Just play Scroll Rack instead.

[ThatDeleuzeGuy]

Hello my friend, there used to be this archetype known as UWx blade control that used be the control deck before 1 mana wrath of gods were coupled with the engine of counterbalance and top. Perhaps now you can have more interesting games because you will actually be forced to interact with your opponent on multiple angles.

Miracles was literally (and I am using literally correctly here) the only deck in magic that approached my ideal. I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. Sensei's Divining Top was the lynch pin for both of those requirements. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible, no other control decks could get anywhere close to the level of minimized variance and reactivity that Miracles could. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless. I'm trying to be objective in saying this is probably the time for me to exit MtG.

[Einherjer]

This is quite unfortunate.

Thanks for everything, though.

[Medea_]

I'm sorry for your loss. As a D&T player, I enjoyed this matchup more than any other in the format. Best of luck to all of you as you adapt to the new world.

[CabalTherapy]

I'm sorry for your loss. As a D&T player, I enjoyed this matchup more than any other in the format. Best of luck to all of you as you adapt to the new world.

Adding my condolence from the other side of the meta here, too. I had lots of gripping games with Storm against Miracles. It was yet another bad move by wotc.

[Hrothgar]

I'm sorry for this loss.
Totally wrong move.
Kill the king have no sense.

[bruizar]

This ban was caused by the top-durdlers amongst you, not because of tournament dominance. Sorry for the fast miracles players out there (I know none)

[Mackan]

Legacy was solved a year ago and the new toys we got from Wizards rarely made an impact on Miracles dominance. Short-term it's sad for everyone who invested time and money but in the long run I think this is healthier for the format. Top is playable in other decks so I would rather see Terminus or counterbalance go, but who are we kidding? Predict and Top would still be one of the best 2-card combos in legacy :P

[laststepdown]

You had a good 4 years on top. (puns puns puns)

Bye.

[owerbart]

terminus should've been the card to go

but well, condolences to miracles players. reanimator vs miracles was a cool MU :)

[bop2]

Good riddance!

Miracles has been supressive for so long. Non-CB blue control havent been playable since miracles is just superior. It will also allow decks like zoo, maverick and various other decks to be play.
Miracles is the most boring and annoying deck in history of legacy. So happy we can move on and that we can now pick and chose of the +10 decks that will be availible due to the ban.

[Zllig]

If my Tops weren't German and a gift from my brother I sure would be recreating that Splinter Twin picture right now. What a shame. Time to stock up on Soothsayings hahah... :(

[Poron]

don't understand the ban.

Blue had an encyclopedia of counters to deal with Counterbalance
Green had Abrupt Decay and GSZ for strange CC to break CB
Red had REB and now Harsh Mentor

Everyone had EExplosives.. in my opinion with Leovold, Miracle wasn't even anymore so much of a topdog (look at BDD with UW Countertop-Mentor).

So long! Byebye

[Noctalor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ya8SSbs_L4

[Diogo37]

Sorry for your lost guys

Top + Counter is always here and never OP before Terminus is printed

The wrong card left.

[Jander78]

I know there's two very strong sides of emotions to this banning. Mocking, flames, and insults will not be tolerated. Please keep your posts respectful and remember this is a deck theory and discussion thread.

[CutthroatCasual]

Good riddance!

Miracles has been supressive for so long. Non-CB blue control havent been playable since miracles is just superior. It will also allow decks like zoo, maverick and various other decks to be play.
Miracles is the most boring and annoying deck in history of legacy. So happy we can move on and that we can now pick and chose of the +10 decks that will be availible due to the ban.

Yea, every deck you just named gets wrecked by TNN/Leovold.

[Zooligan]

I personally feel that either Counterbalance and/or cards with Miracle casting cost (esp Terminus) should have gone instead of Top. Another nail in the coffin of the Great Format.

[Pilhas]

That sucks.... Loved to play the matchup... Hope something similar rises along the lines....

[acidhead]

RIP sweet Prince. It was a pleasure piloting you.

[Jeff]

Yea, every deck you just named gets wrecked by TNN/Leovold.

I'm not convinced durdly midrange bug wrecks Zoo. Back in the day Zoo was one of Team America's bad matchups, and it played at about the same speed as a lot of these decks. Leovold is just going to get hit by Bolt/Chain/Path/Helix, and the manabases those decks have to run to support him get punished by Price of Progress.

Not that zoo is coming back, because while it was gone Show and Tell, Reanimator, and ANT all got faster and found ways to ignore their life totals longer, making them harder to race than ever, but I don't think Leovold/TNN decks would destroy zoo. By the time TNN or Leovold comes down they're gonna have enough dudes on the board they can afford to suicide in a time or two in order to get damage through.

[Wotkenmendo]

I'm sorry for your loss. Miracles celebrated the best parts of control magic. It was always a pleasure to shuffle up and play across from y'all.

You are kind.

It's been fun. Sad I won't get to improve at the deck anymore, like most I had a ways to go. I'll see everyone in the Pox thread. By everyone I mean no one.

[joven]

I almost had a (weaker) Miracles list together.

With CounterTop gone and Terminus staying, can't there still be a UWx Control decklist that's good enough?

[codegoblin]

Buh bye!!

[hyp3r1on]

Thanks for the memories guys. Miracles helped me reach a level of success that I will always look back on fondly. I also got to meet so many friends who shared my love for the archetype. I spent so much time building and testing lists that its basically impossible for me to move on to something else. I, like so many others gravitated towards Miracles as a last bastion for hard control. It was never about Miracles being "the best deck in the format". Like many others I will be most likely taking a hiatus away from the game as its clear wotcs vision of magic isn't conducive with how I would like to engage eternal magic.

[entreri_fans]

I am very sad to hear this even if most of the time I play storm and always get wrecked by Miracle.

Playing miracle and playing against miracle are always the most exciting and skill intensive experience you can have in Legacy.

Sorry for that, my good and old friend, it was a pleasure of meeting you:frown:

[Cipher]

Yea, every deck you just named gets wrecked by TNN/Leovold.
Right. Seems unlikely that BUG/4-Color won't become the deck to beat. They already had an even share of the winner's circle as Miracles, and now their worst matchup is gone.

[Pelikanudo]

my condolences to you all Miracles players, as a Storm player it was always a pleasure to fight that matchup.

[Incinerator]

(WOTC): Get. Out. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170424/29bea76a468e4201cfc83b10c9aafbbc.jpg

[Pdingo]

Sadly one of the Most nicest deck is gone:(
Probably wrong bann.. but yeah to much bad players who don't understand legacy cried..Next they will cry again about Snt and LED bann like 4 years ago..

Thanks for everything guys!

[JBlaze]

"the man in the black pajamas dude... worthy fucking adversary."

[potatodavid]

You did nothing wrong. Goodbye. You will be missed.

[ozimek]

Well, for a few months I have had a short break from Legacy, and now this. :frown:

At least the condolences from non-miracles players warm a little. :cry:

The questions that remains after all the whining is: What now?

Assuming one can find the motivation to pick up a new deck, what will be the best (or least bad) control deck?

I suppose the most obvious answer is the 4CC deck with Leopold that have been cropping up left and right?
Death Blade? - Not true control as it is more midrange
UW Landstill? - Not proactive enough?
Blue Moon Modern port? Seems like it might have a decent matchup vs 4CC and Elves with Pyroclasm or it's big brothers.


Could some unknown UWx build compete? Are 4CMC sweepers playable in Legacy? I'm guessing no.

Will Mana Drain be unbanned to compensate control players? :eek:

[BadGones]

Top didn't deserve it, I thought Terminus will go first and would change the metagame, with people still relying on CB/Top strategies...
I'm clearly sad for the format on this day, although I'm a Storm player.

Good Luck Miracles players, time has come to make a new Control Challenger to enter the ring :)

[jdmdave]

So do we migrate to UW/X stoneblade, try to make some jank with scrollrack work, or just give up.

[CutthroatCasual]

So do we migrate to UW/X stoneblade, try to make some jank with scrollrack work, or just give up.

People with money or collection to do so will move to BUGx, people without will try UWx Stoneblade but that's objectively inferior to the value engine that's BUGx. Terminus will be a 2-of max, ETA is useless, CB is useless.

[Karhumies]

The questions that remains after all the whining is: What now?

Assuming one can find the motivation to pick up a new deck, what will be the best (or least bad) control deck?

I suppose the most obvious answer is the 4CC deck with Leopold that have been cropping up left and right?
Death Blade? - Not true control as it is more midrange
UW Landstill? - Not proactive enough?
Blue Moon Modern port? Seems like it might have a decent matchup vs 4CC and Elves with Pyroclasm or it's big brothers.


Could some unknown UWx build compete? Are 4CMC sweepers playable in Legacy? I'm guessing no.

Will Mana Drain be unbanned to compensate control players? :eek:

Control-ish archetypes:

BGx "rock" board control: anything with Pernicious Deed (and Gurmag Angler) and/or Toxic Deluge. Add blue for FoW and/or white for StoP. This should become a popular archetype with a bunch of different builds. Geared towards winning against stock BUG lists.

Tempo-Control: Delver Variants, Merfolk

Combo-Control: e.g. Painter-Stone, Splinter Twin, monoblue OmniTell, Ub Reanimator, Sneaky Show, High Tide, Stiflenought

Stompy decks / anything with Chalice @1: Eldrazi, Monored Stompy (Blood Moon, Magus, Fiery Confluence, Trinisphere, possible to run Ensnaring Bridge)

Lands based control: The Tabernacle, Grove of the Burnwillows, Wasteland, Life from the Loam, etc.

Midrange value control: Stoneforge Mystic and/or Monastery Mentor based lists running extra colors. Stoneblade, Deadguy Ale, Old school UW tempo, new variants.

Discard/sacrifice/Prison based control: Pox, Stax, Stasis, etc. Typically not very viable anymore.

Old-school Ugx "Miracle Grow" with Quirion Dryad + DRS?

Some UW control waiting to be brewed (with Standstill?)?

Some Ur Aggro-control list running Price of Progress?

Restore Balance control? Probably not possible to pull off reliably.


Terminus would still be somewhat viable in a Bant shell control deck with Brainstorm and Sylvan Library / Mirri's Guile, but SL/MG extra copies are redundant and you don't get the CB lock. In other words, yes it gets rid of creatures but it's bad vs non-creature combo. Dropping white for black (Pernicious Deed, Fatal Push, Maelstrom Pulse, Abrupt Decay, Toxic Deluge, Damnation, Thoughtseize/IoK) seems superior to jumping through hoops to enable Terminus.

[twndomn]

Soothsaying

Mana cost: U
Type: Enchantment
Effect of card: 3UU: Shuffle your library.
X: Look at the top X cards of your library, then put them back in any order.

:laugh: I'm kidding.

[Marungo]

As a DnT player, my condolences. You didn't deserve to have your deck killed. A terminus ban made more sense. What now is the question? Loved playing vs miracles, and again sorry for the killing blow.

[Razorking]

As a 12 post player i feel very sad but i know it is for the wrong reasons.

[Crimhead]

I am a Lands player and will miss having a hard permission based control deck to play against. Basically every other (noncombo) deck becomes an aggro deck against RUG Lands. This was my only real control vs control match.

Maybe Scroll rack will make a T-1.5 Miracles deck?
Maybe Tezz will rise to the occasion?

[MGB]

Bahahaha!

This stupid deck is no more!

<- someone who played Ancient Tomb decks that actually had a good winning percentage against Miracles but is STILL super happy to see this terrible tournament-wrecking card banned.

[Sansian]

I guess it's a measure of how infrequently Legacy sees a ban, but it's pretty weird to come in here and see people celebrating in what was likely the largest single strategy thread on the site (and now it's basically a graveyard). I mean Miracles is the only deck that I've fundamentally disliked enough to sell out of three times, but still, it was a hell of a contender.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Time to dust off my Portents nauw.

[LarsLeif]

So long and thanks for all the fish Miracles. I was always on the other side and got to watch you grow up. Fare thee well! :(

[Jeff]

Time to dust off my Portents nauw.

You know you want to

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47558

[acidhead]

As a 12 post player i feel very sad but i know it is for the wrong reasons.

This made my day! :D

[gh0st_b1rd]

You know you want to

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47558

You figured out my Hatfields <3.

[Manipulato]

I personally think that a ban against this deck was needed but really not Sensei's Divining Top! I voted for Counterbalance because then the deck could still exist but well...:frown:

Played always on the other side again this deck and it was a pleasure, sorry guys, you have my feelings!

Everyone whos thinking about quit magic from now on...Just stop! Dont jump from this bridge my friend! Legacy offers more than just Sensei's Divining Top :wink:

[TheBoozeCube]

Sorry for your loss. As a 12 Post player, I always defended Miracles's place in the metagame. I hope you all find a way to keep control alive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kyle]

I personally think that a ban against this deck was needed but really not Sensei's Divining Top! I voted for Counterbalance because then the deck could still exist but well...:frown:

Played always on the other side again this deck and it was a pleasure, sorry guys, you have my feelings!

Everyone whos thinking about quit magic from now on...Just stop! Dont jump from this bridge my friend! Legacy offers more than just Sensei's Divining Top :wink:

Miracles getting killed by this ban is dismal, but what is equally depressing is the lack of faith control players will have for WoTC going forward. Or am I being delusional?

[gh0st_b1rd]

Guys, there is a chance that SDT will get unbanned if the power vacuum moves in an abysmal direction.

I have always thought the predator-prey cycle is silly, and that Miracles was a fine fun police. Then again as a DnT player, I have always thought that DnT and Miracles existed on the same axes of the metagame clock but DnT is just a worse Miracles with a decent Miracles match up. My control fix will be satisfied with DnT but what will I do with staples within Miracles? Am considering UR Delver or Omni-Tell at this point.

[wcm8]

Supposing you substituted 4 copies of Portent as a replacement for SDT in order to still play Terminus and Entreat, would Counterbalance still be worth playing at all? Or would the deck just drop that angle entirely in favor of more copies of Counterspell and whatnot? It seems like a singleton of CB might still be pretty powerful for the occasional blind flip and/or using various cantrips to manipulate the top card. CB also plays well with Predict, as at least you get to know what's on top to enable a Draw 2 for 2.

I guess Scroll Rack is another option, but I'm more iffy about that.

This deck probably just falls apart without having SDT to help stitch everything together, but I'm sure every Miracles player can recall plenty of games they won without resolving a single copy of SDT **OR** Counterbalance. Going forward, UWx Control likely needs to be playing stuff like Stoneforge Mystic and/or Standstill, but it's not like Jace, Snapcaster, and Swords to Plowshares etc. are suddenly bad cards. It seems like the archetype could still be fairly competitive with a bit of tweaking and clever substitutions.

[gh0st_b1rd]

CB is not playable anymore.

Moving forward I think having a full playset of Snapcasters in order to set up Terminus might bw adaquate.

[Machinus]

Cards being re-unbanned in Legacy is almost impossible. I doubt it will ever happen.

Sorry.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Cards being re-unbanned in Legacy is almost impossible. I doubt it will ever happen.

Sorry.

The honesty is appreciated.

[Misersoneof]

I may be accused of having on a tinfoil hat here, but does anyone else think it's odd that WOTC chooses now to ban out (not nerf mind you, but completely destroy) the one and only viable control deck AND make a blatant attempt at creating a control archetype in standard?

[Von]

I may be accused of having on a tinfoil hat here, but does anyone else think it's odd that WOTC chooses now to ban out (not nerf mind you, but completely destroy) the one and only viable control deck AND make a blatant attempt at creating a control archetype in standard?


I think something's off also. They've shown they barely care about legacy by pretty much pulling all tournemant support. Yet they care enough to ban a crucial card in a bunch of decks. I feel like this is a move to try to get people to move to other formats.

[Crimhead]

Yikes!

Lucky for me they will probably never make a utility land based prison/LD deck with a graveyard engine and fast combo finish in Standard. Otherwise I better look out for a Tabernacle and Dark Depths ban!

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Miracles players:

Although I never really enjoyed piloting Miracles, myself, I know that most of you really did. As an Elves player, I had lots of hard games against a variety of Miracles decks. I spent many hours preparing to play against an ever fluid array of Miracles decks and many hours tweaking my sideboard in anticipation of facing the latest miracles brews. I empathize with your disappointment because I know you invested a lot of time, energy, and personal innovation into cultivating Miracles just to suit your particular style. While I would have enjoyed a Terminus-free match-up, I suspect a Top-free one will be less satisfying for most. I know it's jarring to have such an abrupt stop to Top. You had a really good run. Enjoy the memories and best of luck finding a new deck to inspire you.

LoR

[Lormador]

Well, at least they banned the card before I was able to follow through with my plan to get each piece of it in the original printing.

Still, I'm infuriated. This deck was my favorite and the one I've been playing the longest. I'd traded out of most other decks, though fortunately there is still another.

Ah well. Perhaps Maverick shall rise again, since Miracles is what killed it. That's a deck I can get behind.

[jdmdave]

So what is the deck we should look into if we have the 2 volcs/2 tundras necessary to play miracles? UWR Stoneblade w/ Standstill?

[gh0st_b1rd]

I'm going to test Portent. I cut the CBs, an EtA and a Terminus for 2 Snapcasters, 1 EE and 1 Council's Judgment. As long as it is still a playable tier 2 deck I will be extremely pleased.

[jdmdave]

might as well try mystic speculation :(

[Dzra]

I may be accused of having on a tinfoil hat here, but does anyone else think it's odd that WOTC chooses now to ban out (not nerf mind you, but completely destroy) the one and only viable control deck AND make a blatant attempt at creating a control archetype in standard?

Honestly, it's insulting that they would use "slows down tournament play" as an excuse when they've pulled nearly all of their tournament support for Legacy. People play Legacy because they like the format, they aren't trying to build up their pro points, they've been playing/perfecting their archetype for years and they are happy to do so. Some Legacy players even take years to acquire their whole decks due to the cost of entry (deciding to double down on the reserved list is another cheap insult on WotC's part). In a format like this, WotC should be looking for every opportunity to unban cards (cough Survival). The fact that they pulled tournament support at the height of Legacy growth/play and then years later would decide to ban one of the format's staples is just horribly insulting (in a long line of insults) to the format.

[Poron]

I have to say that this cancels 90% of the reason not to play Chalice of the Void in any deck of mine and I suppose this is true for many other people.

Time for zoo? It has the colors to destroy any permanents and the creatures to apply pression.

[TokenMaster]

One thing I think a lot of people are forgetting (or not realizing) is the vast number of decks that were invalidated because of the existence of miracles, including other control decks that simply weren't as powerful as miracles. Fast combo may be better without miracles, but miracles most certainly wasn't the only thing keeping them in check and they'll certainly be kept in check by other decks in the future. Legacy wasn't exactly a combo wasteland pre-miracles.

While I agree Terminus or Counterbalance was the problem and you have my condolences for your lost money and time investment, I can understand WotC's decision to kill the deck; after all, its existence killed a lot of decks and many of the viable decks have to bend over backwards vs miracles specifically to have a decent matchup post-board. I personally look forward to seeing what decks return and what new decks come up and I wish those of you who are left the best of luck.

[Lormador]

They could have weakened the deck without simply destroying it; and they could have unbanned something as a tiny consolation. Instead we get this turd of a decision. It's times like these that I wonder why I even play.

[J.Black]

I will genuinely miss playing against this deck :( as a food chain player, it was always an enjoyable and challenging match-up.

I will echo others and say that Terminus, not SDT, was the issue and needed a ban... a one mana instant speed wrath that gets around indestructible and regenerate? Totally busted card. Without that miracles could have carried on but there would have been a nice opening for Zoo to push into the meta.

[Noctalor]

Guys, there is a chance that SDT will get unbanned if the power vacuum moves in an abysmal direction.

I have always thought the predator-prey cycle is silly, and that Miracles was a fine fun police. Then again as a DnT player, I have always thought that DnT and Miracles existed on the same axes of the metagame clock but DnT is just a worse Miracles with a decent Miracles match up. My control fix will be satisfied with DnT but what will I do with staples within Miracles? Am considering UR Delver or Omni-Tell at this point.

If I remember correctly no card banned after the start of the format ever got unbanned in legacy, top is 99% gone forever.

[Jeff]

If I remember correctly no card banned after the start of the format ever got unbanned in legacy, top is 99% gone forever.

This is true, but the only bans in legacy since 2004 (when it split from vintage) are:

Imperial Seal (when Portal became legal)
Flash
Time Vault (when they changed the errata)
Survival of the Fittest
Mental Misstep
Treasure Cruise
Dig Through Time
Sensei's Divining Top

If you ignore Imperial Seal and Time Vault (since they weren't being played when they were banned), that's only 6 cards, and I don't think there's anyone arguing that any of those really ought to be coming back (though I still blame Omnitell for ruining the "fair" decks I enjoyed building with Dig Through Time). Divining Top may be the only thing on the list that you can make a compelling argument for unbanning at some point.

Which is not to say it's coming back, I just find the history of legacy's banlist interesting and figured I'd share. I agree it's probably gone forever.

[zenitramleirdag]

i could be wrong, but i think counterbalance should've gotten the hammer instead..banning top also hurts other decks too..in all honesty, i hated playing against miracles, but banning top seems wrong..sorry for the loss..

[Noctalor]

i could be wrong, but i think counterbalance should've gotten the hammer instead..banning top also hurts other decks too..in all honesty, i hated playing against miracles, but banning top seems wrong..sorry for the loss..

Survival got banned, not Vengevine.

Top got banned, not the garbage cards that became godly thanks to it.
Let's be realistic, in a vacuum terminus, entreat and counterbalance are just bad cards.

[Parcher]

Miracles didn't get banned. Top did.

That's 4 cards in the deck. There are countless cards in Legacy that manipulate the top of your library. There are countless cards in Legacy that draw at instant speed. Just none that are as cheap, efficient, asymmetrical, and resilient as Top. Or that do both. If you want to effectively run Entreat, Terminus, and Counterbalance in the same shell, you most definitely can. The deck just won't be the best in the format anymore.


EDIT; All these people bitching that it should have been Terminus. That's the problem, not Top. That their deck just can't beat a 1-mana instant-speed Wrath+tuck. Well I just hope people use all the resources available in Legacy to keep Terminus alive, and these players out.

[CptHaddock]

Miracles didn't get banned. Top did.

That's 4 cards in the deck. There are countless cards in Legacy that manipulate the top of your library. There are countless cards in Legacy that draw at instant speed. Just none that are as cheap, efficient, asymmetrical, and resilient as Top. Or that do both. If you want to effectively run Entreat, Terminus, and Counterbalance in the same shell, you most definitely can. The deck just won't be the best in the format anymore.

If people think for themselves how are they going to copy the exact 75 that did well on mtgo or at a large legacy tournament though?

[Minniehajj]

Miracles didn't get banned. Top did.

That's 4 cards in the deck. There are countless cards in Legacy that manipulate the top of your library. There are countless cards in Legacy that draw at instant speed. Just none that are as cheap, efficient, asymmetrical, and resilient as Top. Or that do both. If you want to effectively run Entreat, Terminus, and Counterbalance in the same shell, you most definitely can. The deck just won't be the best in the format anymore.


EDIT; All these people bitching that it should have been Terminus. That's the problem, not Top. That their deck just can't beat a 1-mana instant-speed Wrath+tuck. Well I just hope people use all the resources available in Legacy to keep Terminus alive, and these players out.

It's not that simple. The last bastion of control as a tier one deck just fell, and you cannot expressly try to simply replace top and expect to spike an event with it. It's not a realistic goal when all of the replacements suck or are slow. Efficacy is the name of the game in a tier one strategy. My goal in Legacy is to win, and I played and worked on the best deck, but I also held myself to the sphere that I need to be playing a control deck because this was the last format that it was truly possible to do. Miracles was the last tier one deck left in pretty much each format, and now that it's gone, it's not as simple as playing a subpar card and trying to do the same thing. The deck was tier one explicitly because it was so efficient, and that was centered around Top. If you want to play control now, you simply don't have the ability to be as efficient as you used to be. It's not as simple as replacing a random 4 of card, you have to replace the backbone of the deck.

Miracle control is dead, there's no argument, and we all need to go our separate ways. I will attempt to make control viable once again, but I'm sure others will do what they will. Legacy is wide open and everyone should continue playing of course, but do not make light of the fact that the last bastion of control is now dead.

[Parcher]

You're making two separate arguments. Miracles doesn't have to be the best deck. And now it isn't. If you don't want to play it because you care more about winning than what you use to win, that's on you. There is absolutely zero doubt that the deck as it existed is gone. But all the other cards are still legal. And the vast majority are extremely powerful. Claiming that the deck is dead, and all the Miracle cards are wasted now is simply untrue. They can still be used, and manipulated at instant speed to function. Just not to the unfair level they had. All these complaints boil down to "I want to have the best deck", not "they banned my expensive Legacy deck".

[Minniehajj]

You're making two separate arguments. Miracles doesn't have to be the best deck. And now it isn't. If you don't want to play it because you care more about winning than what you use to win, that's on you. There is absolutely zero doubt that the deck as it existed is gone. But all the other cards are still legal. And the vast majority are extremely powerful. Claiming that the deck is dead, and all the Miracle cards are wasted now is simply untrue. They can still be used, and manipulated at instant speed to function. Just not to the unfair level they had. All these complaints boil down to "I want to have the best deck", not "they banned my expensive Legacy deck".

It's more.... a control deck isn't tier one anymore, that I'm trying to establish as being an awful thing. It will take time to adjust, once a metagame shapes up, but I think control overall will be really bad for a while. I don't care about them banning the expensive legacy deck, I do care about them banning the last control deck outright.

[Parcher]

Fair argument. Though some would argue that Shardless is both Control, and Tier 1. It remains to be seen if a Tier1 Control deck can now exist that could not have with Miracles in Legacy as it existed.

[Crimhead]

Fair argument. Though some would argue that Shardless is both Control, and Tier 1. It remains to be seen if a Tier1 Control deck can now exist that could not have with Miracles in Legacy as it existed.

I think he means a control deck that isn't midrange-control. Having a hard control deck adds something to the meta that Goyf or SFM control does not.

[Minniehajj]

I think he means a control deck that isn't midrange-control. Having a hard control deck adds something to the meta that Goyf or SFM control does not.

Exactly. I hate the clunky aspects of things like Shardless Agent and Stoneforge Mystic, and I really don't want to have to play either of those cards. I'm all about efficacy, and that land is not something I think will be very good.

[Crimhead]

Exactly. I hate the clunky aspects of things like Shardless Agent and Stoneforge Mystic, and I really don't want to have to play either of those cards.

I play Lands, and I enjoy playing against a (real) control deck that doesn't instantly (and smoothly) transition into an aggro deck against me. :frown:


I have to say that this cancels 90% of the reason not to play Chalice of the Void in any deck of mine and I suppose this is true for many other people.


If you are playing Maverick or Jund - add the CotV and upgrade to Aggro Loam.

If you are playing Lands, keep it in the board.

If you are playing BUG, Blade, Elves, D&T, Storm, Sneak Show, Infect, Delver, or Burn, I'd give it a pass.

[Parcher]

What is "Hard Control"? Do you mean "stack control"? It doesn't exist. Even Loessett was adamant that Miracles was a board control deck. And he was right. In fact, in the face of Decay, Miracles stack control became downright anemic. Delver had better stack control. Do you mean creatureless? We can discard the Legend and Mentor builds of Miracles right off. And I guarantee you I saw Anuraag win more games with Snap beats than with EOTEntreatfor5youlose.

[apple713]

If I remember correctly no card banned after the start of the format ever got unbanned in legacy, top is 99% gone forever.

Land Tax maybe? not sure when it was banned but it seems unlikely that it started the format banned.

Also, land tax seems to have the potential to cause a much slower game if you are searching and shuffling deck every turn. BUT its not played so it flys under the radar for now.

[Crimhead]

What is "Hard Control"? Do you mean "stack control"?
No. I would say "permission control" for that. Delver and Midrange decks employ permission control, as does Miracles.


Do you mean creatureless?

I mean a certain capacity for aggression. Goyf and SFM decks swing at me with early and beefy threats by turn three. Hard control decks rarely or never can put up that kind of pressure and essentially play as an aggro deck should the game state call for it.


We can discard the Legend and Mentor builds of Miracles right off. And I guarantee you I saw Anuraag win more games with Snap beats than with EOTEntreatfor5youlose.
Mentor Miracles is leaning away from hard control. Still they often ran relatively few, and it takes time to find one and set up pressure. Unlike a turn 2 Goyf or SFM.

Even in Legend Miracles those creatures are slower and less efficient as pure beaters. Unlike Goyf.
Killing with Snappy over 10 turns does not qualify as a smooth transition to aggro mode.

I'm not denying that Midrange decks can be control decks. Midrange decks by definition employ elements that can be used for either attack or defense.

Hard control decks are a class of control decks that are almost purely dedicated to defense and cannot as easily change gears and apply pressure. Such decks have fallen out of favour, but the distinction is real (despite much denial). Just like Delver is aggro/control and not a "pure" aggro deck (see Affinity or Sligh), Blade and BUG are not "hard" control decks.

WotC's push for value creatures over the past ten years has pretty much obsoleted decks dedicated entirely to defense or attack Miracles was the last hold-out on the control end (despite the argument that it may also have been starting to slip down the midrange slope).

[infiniteJ]

May I humbly suggest people looking to still play a UW control deck look back at the caw cartel decks? For about a year, I played "Miracles" without counterbalance and with only 0 to 2 tops, because I personally did not enjoy playing with the cards. I had good success in 4 round weekly events, although never sleeved it up at bigger tournaments. The combination of cantrips and a solid UW manabase will always be strong. You don't even have to splash red anymore if you don't want to.

My list was invariably something along the lines of:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2-4 Preordain
2 relic of progenitus (for those instant speed wraths and now hates on drs)
4 Stp
2 Snapcaster
2 SFM
4 Squadron hawk (personal preference, were great vs miracles but also had good synergy with terminus/bs. Could easily be v clique/tnn)
2-3 jace
0-1 Council's judgement
2 equipment
4 force of will
4 counterspells (spell pierce, snare, counterspell mix)
2-4 terminus
19-20 lands

SB:
4 meddling mage/containment priest
2 flusterstorm
extra terminus/verdict
some surgicals
a disenchant/judgement
v cliques.

[HeroBean]

Isn't Stax and Lands both "hard control" decks though? And both are at least tournament playable, lands is even tier 1 if I'm not mistaken.

[TheArchitect]

I have been playing miracles since shortly after terminus was printed, not just because the deck was good, but because I enjoyed control decks. This ban was far more than justified. It is stupid to cry about it, yes we all loved miracles because it is both the control style we enjoy AND the best deck, but that is asking for far too much. No one else in any format, but us miracles players, has been able to play the same deck while it was the best deck for as long as we miracles have. We have been very spoiled.

There was plenty of control decks before miracles (landstill, stax, 43 lands, UW stoneblade before it got midrangy) and there will be control decks after the top ban. Parcher is right, miracles would still be a playable with scroll rack if you really just cannot fathom playing another deck. It is ok to play a deck that's not THE BEST deck. If you need to play a teir 1 deck to enjoy legacy, then you really cannot let yourself get attached to any one deck.


This is a welcome changed for me. Miracles was so good, I could not overcome my inner spike and play another archtype when I could improve my win rate by just playing miracles for the 1000th time. I for one will probably go back to playing an Esper Mentor brew like I did during the dig through time days, UWx Blade Control or UBr Tezzeret.

[TheBoozeCube]

If you're looking for a non-midrange control deck, may I recommend a C/g build of 12 Post? You get to play with tons of removal, board wipes, great card selection and card advantage, and even a bit of countermagic. And there's nothing quite like taking infinite turns with Emrakul + Karakas…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ESG]

... I do care about them banning the last control deck outright.

This is extremely shortsighted, and the carping about hard control vs. non-hard control is ridiculous. Monastery Mentor + double Top enabled Turn 5 beatdowns many times. That's a faster clock than Shardless BUG. Yes, if you wanted to, you could remove all but one or two win conditions from Miracles, but the most dominant build of Miracles was Mentor Miracles. There's an entire format of cards to play. If you want to build a "hard control" deck, you certainly can. As Parcher pointed out, you still have a deck full of other great cards to start with, and there are hundreds of other combinations to explore.

[Crimhead]

Isn't Stax and Lands both "hard control" decks though? And both are at least tournament playable, lands is even tier 1 if I'm not mistaken.
RGCL is combo/control. Too many quick combo wins for me to consider it hard control. A hard control deck is defense first and has a hard time doing anything else in a timely manner.

RUG Lands (the version I usually play) I would consider hard control. I get fast combo wins, but they are by far the exception.

It's good we have a tier one prison deck (if you believe RUG Lands is tier one). But it's nice to have a more reactive (hard) control deck too. I can't see Landstill coming back.

[TokenMaster]

RGCL is combo/control. Too many quick combo wins for me to consider it hard control. A hard control deck is defense first and has a hard time doing anything else in a timely manner.

RUG Lands (the version I usually play) I would consider hard control. I get fast combo wins, but they are by far the exception.

It's good we have a tier one prison deck (if you believe RUG Lands is tier one). But it's nice to have a more reactive (hard) control deck too. I can't see Landstill coming back.
At that point I think it's a little too demanding though. Not all playstyles have been serviced with the tier 1 treatment and I don't think it's fair at all to say draw-go is getting the raw end of the deal compared to everything else when it's been ages since we've even had a true aggro deck at tier 1.(ironically because of miracles and stoneblade) Before miracles legacy had been a cyclical format where tiers and "the best deck" shifted more frequently as a result of trends and you could never be sure your deck would stay at tier 1 simply because the meta would shift toward decks that could beat the current best deck; I think that's a healthy play environment and I don't think it's fair to expect 1 deck to remain immobile at tier 1 when every other DTB has shifted in and out for the past several years, simply because it fits the very specific niche of a handful of players.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Here's what I have so far, and would love testers and feedback.

4 scalding tarn
4 flooded strand
1 arid mesa
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
2 plains
4 island

4 snapcaster mage

2 jace, the mind-sculptor
2 entreat the angels
2 scroll rack!?
4 swords to plowshares
4 terminus
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 portent
4 predict
4 force of will
2 counterspell
1 spell pierce
1 spell snare

2 from the ashes
2 surgical extraction
2 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
1 mountain
3 flusterstorm
1 wear // tear
1 engineered explosives
1 council's judgment

So the play pattern for this deck is similar as previous iterations but what you are allowed to Predict away changes. Early you generally want your Ponders and Portents to find you lands in general instead of trying to specifically aim to find SDT. What you want to do with your Ponders and Portents is to continue looking for other cantrips and Predicts a la Hatfields.

Scroll Rack is an expensive concession to the fact that you do not have Top anymore but thankfully only requires a single activation before it gets Decayed. Think of them as Brainstorms #5-#6. Scroll Rack isn't something you actively want but isnt bad at all. It fixes problems and is no way a terrible asset to have in play. Sometimes your recovery ceiling would be higher with Scroll Rack thanks to the fact that you could find more than 3 cards and is even more cards if you have an extra fetchland in play.
I might consider running a 3rd copy and including 3x Counterbalance in the SB for the combo and Lands MU.

Full set of Snapcaster Mages have been included because of heavily this deck leans on Predicts and Brainstorms now. Am seriously considering a Riptide Lab.

Spell Snare and Spell Pierce felt looser now than I have usually felt about those cards before the banning. Spell Pierce had been helpful for fighting counter wars because of how expensive setting up Terminus had became. You could move the CJ and EE back into the maindeck which might be an infinitely better idea going forward and adding two Pyroclasms into the SB. Pyroclasms sweeps BUG Delver decks pretty well as well as a cost efficient way to sweep threats off the board vs Czech Pile. Also quite good vs Elves and DnT. I have seriously considered Electrolyze to be included.

Your combo match up is still decent post board. Scroll Rack is your best card vs Storm. Just hid infinite counters under your Scroll Rack to play around Therapies + Probe and punish them accordingly with your critical mass of counters.

Edit. Hatfields, where are they?

[felipe_tardoqui]

I testing Soothsaying (try 3 soothsaying, 3 CB, and 3 terminus, plus Supreme veredict and moat main deck), and in my opinion its a good replace for SDT. It's really slowly, but can do combo with CB very well. Ita worse in early game, but OK in mid and late game. We can activate terminus with brainstorm or predict. I test a few rounds yesterday, and I win against Jeskay Control, Grixis Delver and BR reanimator, and lose for big eldrazi.
I think its a card can make this deck viable again, become a tier 2 or 3, but its playable.

Enviado de meu XT1097 usando Tapatalk

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If you are playing scroll rack, I think now may be the time for Land Tax.

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[gh0st_b1rd]

Soothsaying once it is in play is too mana intensive for it to be useful. Paying 3 mana for Soothsaying is much worse than paying a single mana for Top. At least with Scroll Rack the mana efficiency is still there, provided, you set it up via cards in hand.

[silly]

I was in the middle of building Mentor Miracles when the ban dropped.

Monastery Mentor is one of my favorite cards printed in a recent set, so if I still want to play with my copies in Legacy, what's my next best option? I've been looking at some Esper Mentor stuff and trying to come up with a good list, but most of the posts on that deck are from 1-2 years ago, so I have no idea if it's even still relevant in the current or upcoming meta.

[pateuglow]

I was in the middle of building Mentor Miracles when the ban dropped.

Monastery Mentor is one of my favorite cards printed in a recent set, so if I still want to play with my copies in Legacy, what's my next best option? I've been looking at some Esper Mentor stuff and trying to come up with a good list, but most of the posts on that deck are from 1-2 years ago, so I have no idea if it's even still relevant in the current or upcoming meta.

Put them in the Sideboard of Tin Fins.

[silly]

Put them in the Sideboard of Tin Fins.

I'm sure you can have some "getcha" moments where you make your opponent look silly for siding out all their removal, but that's not really playing with Mentor. He's more like a plan B, and not even a good one at that since he only comes out against certain decks. Surely there must be a better option than that (I'm certainly hoping so because if Tin Fins is really the best Mentor deck right now I will be very sad).

[TokenMaster]

I'm sure you can have some "getcha" moments where you make your opponent look silly for siding out all their removal, but that's not really playing with Mentor. He's more like a plan B, and not even a good one at that since he only comes out against certain decks. Surely there must be a better option than that (I'm certainly hoping so because if Tin Fins is really the best Mentor deck right now I will be very sad).Look into Esper Deathrite Mentor. A much stronger deck now that it doesn't need to run a fourth color for Acrupt Decay nor does it have to worry about Terminus, at least for now.

[ScottW]

This may be a rather bad idea in the end but for years I've wanted to test a Miracles Bant deck with LfrL, Cycle Lands to draw, Noxious Revival, Intuition, etc. I've never tested it and SDT would have been included but I always seemed bogged down by the Countertop package when drawing up the configurations and this may provide the space to tune the plan A. I think the list would be more combo control and include maybe 4x Entreat and Terminus (I think there was a point when a few European players were overloading on Entreats similar to ANT players who play multiple Tendrils). Maybe no JTMS or even Counterbalance but these could theoretically play a role. Also, it has potential to play Wasteland, Mox Diamond, and Legacy's new best card -- Deathrite Shaman, but I have no testing to report. Anyway, food for thought in transition (even if it's junk food). Best of luck!

[somethingdotdotdot]

[QUOTE=gh0st_b1rd;1003549]Here's what I have so far, and would love testers and feedback.

*Scroll Rack List*
[QUOTE]

I actually think that it might be viable to utilize a loam engine with the scroll rack for card advantage and utility lands (wastes/mishra's). Obviously, red has to go and the combo matchup may prove to be terrible, but this direction might be worthwhile as a dedidcated board control deck with a small i-win button in entreat.

[CranialX]

For the past few days all I have been seeing here is that Miracle Control is dead. I refuse to believe that you know why? Because there are times that we win games without SDT.
So Miracle Players will adjust to this and we will make it great again.

I have a deck build in mind. I will post it once it is working.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Regular LftL seems fine. I cant imagine cycling lands working though. The draw engine is already very mana intensive and the pay off is very nebulous. Like you had theorized, Scroll Rack is the most efficient way to leverage a hand size.

I will continue working on Predict-Scroll Rack because Predict fits into the game plan naturally. Scroll Rack doesnt add anything by itself but Predict just helps you make meaningful land drops early and just strictly finds you gas later. When later does come with Predict Miracles, Scroll Rack is the perfect add-on.

Edit. To everybody trying to bring Miracles back from the dead: welcome to the masochist faction.

[KZhang]

This may be a rather bad idea in the end but for years I've wanted to test a Miracles Bant deck with LfrL, Cycle Lands to draw, Noxious Revival, Intuition, etc. I've never tested it and SDT would have been included but I always seemed bogged down by the Countertop package when drawing up the configurations and this may provide the space to tune the plan A. I think the list would be more combo control and include maybe 4x Entreat and Terminus (I think there was a point when a few European players were overloading on Entreats similar to ANT players who play multiple Tendrils). Maybe no JTMS or even Counterbalance but these could theoretically play a role. Also, it has potential to play Wasteland, Mox Diamond, and Legacy's new best card -- Deathrite Shaman, but I have no testing to report. Anyway, food for thought in transition (even if it's junk food). Best of luck!


i quite like the LftL, Cycling land, scroll rack engine. Enables EOT entreat and terminus as well.

[AppallinglyDull]

I will continue working on Predict-Scroll Rack because Predict fits into the game plan naturally. Scroll Rack doesnt add anything by itself but Predict just helps you make meaningful land drops early and just strictly finds you gas later. When later does come with Predict Miracles, Scroll Rack is the perfect add-on.

Edit. To everybody trying to bring Miracles back from the dead: welcome to the masochist faction.

Happy (well, really, very sad, but you know...) to join the masochist faction.

I just finished Miracles a few months ago. Due to work / life / etc., I only had a chance to play it in even a 'FNM' setting a handful of times. I didn't build it because it was the best deck, but because it was, to me, the most beautiful, in its interactions, playstyle, etc. I'm making plans for what deck to play next (leaning towards Storm, just because screw WotC trying to force me to play creatures; I'll show them!), but am also really interested in trying to keep the dream alive -- mostly just because I didn't get to play the deck for as long as most of you.

I've read through this thread for a while, but never had much to contribute, since I was always 'catching up'. Well, no more... :(

I may make a longer version of this post on Reddit's Legacy forum as well (under a related but different screen name; kudos if you get the reference), but in my mind there are a few things lost with the banning of CounterTop (IMO, they go together; Counterbalance doesn't seem worth it without Top; even Scroll Rack doesn't help, IMO, since it's too conditional on having enough cards in hand):

1. We lose the 'soft lock'
2. We lose a lot of filtering
3. We lose the ability to set up miracle cards
4. We lose the ability to activate miracle cards at will (i.e., on the opponent's turn)

Regarding #1, I really am not quite sure how to resolve that. And maybe that alone is the death knell for a non-CounterTop UW Miracles deck. But to be stubborn and masochistic, let's carry on. :-/

#2 and #3 can be solved with additional cantrips, Scroll Rack, etc. Portent seems like the most likely candidate. Preordain could also work, but I imagine there are better options. One thing I'm not a huge fan of with Scroll Rack is that it doesn't work very well with few cards in hand, and it seems like we'll probably be short on cards in hand in general. I suppose it's basically a tool to pay {1} to put a card back on top, but that's a bit unexciting. :-/

#4 is a bit tougher. I like that Portent at least gets us to miracle on the opponent's turn (ok for Terminus; so-so for EtA, since we'd rather do it at the end of turn). Another option I've considered here is Quicken [U Instant: You can cast your next sorcery as if it were an instant. Draw a card.]. Yes, it costs a mana, but it cantrips, and it can at least allow you to hold up Counterspell mana and then Ponder/etc. on the opponent's turn. I'm not sure it makes the cut, but it's an idea.

Another card that I find a bit intriguing is See Beyond [1U Sorcery: Draw 2, then shuffle a card from your hand into your library.] Without the constant filtering Top provides, it seems more likely we get stuck with a Terminus / Entreat / Jace in hand when we don't want it there. See Beyond is a little bit like Predict in that it gets rid of a card (from the hand rather than on top) to draw two. It's worse, no doubt, but similar. Again, not sure it makes the cut.

I wonder if we might be able to craft some sort of 'knife's edge' UW Miracles deck along these lines. We lose the CounterTop lock, but if we replace Counterbalance and Top with cantrips and maybe some extra counterspells, it increases the deck's velocity, so maybe we can try to survive long enough to win with Entreat, rather than locking up the game.

A rough sketch I came up with is:

4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment
1 Eng. Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
21 lands


I'm hoping to test a bit with a friend on Thursday, but feedback before then would be welcome. I'm by no means the best player (hardly an average one, really), so maybe this is complete bollocks. If it is, feel free to say so, but gently please.

* * *

[Edit] Preliminary solo testing (somewhat meaningless for a deck like this, but whatever) shows that this is almost certainly far too much 'air'. Lots of looks between fetchlands, Ponders, and Portents, but not enough action in the hands. :-/

[Edit 2] Revised the list above after a bit more testing. Added VCliques for combo matchups and for hand management / miracle triggering, and more countermagic to compensate for the lack of Counterbalance. This feels better, but still lacks the power of CounterTop Miracles.

[Dice_Box]

I doubt Predict is still playable honestly.

[jrsthethird]

I was half-trying to pick up Tundras and the Miracle cards so i could play this deck. Shipped off the CBs to buylist already and stuck with a set of Tops, but w/e. Can we find room for Land Tax and Squadron Hawk in the Scroll Rack lists please? If not, I'm sticking with some BUG/(x?) monstrosity. I only have one Tundra but if there's a sweet Scroll Rack list, I'll have a reason to get a playset.

[prepare4robots]

No one else in any format, but us miracles players, has been able to play the same deck while it was the best deck for as long as we miracles have. We have been very spoiled.


I'd be interested in the analysis, but don't think the facts back this claim up. Affinity jumps to mind.

[zenitramleirdag]

If you are playing scroll rack, I think now may be the time for Land Tax.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

that could lead you to a parfait-esque build..you might wanna look into that..

[somethingdotdotdot]

Just going to toss out a list because loam is pretty insane with scroll rack (it reminds me of how much I enjoyed loam+jace in bugstill when mental misstep was around). Once you stabilize, it's literally an ancestral a turn (actually better b/c you put back dead cards from previous draws as well). I tried land tax, card is pretty terrible in this shell--it's dead late game and you want to be ahead on land drops, not behind. This deck obviously lacks counterbalance, making the combo matchup atrocious, but at least its something to build on. I personally might take the deck towards a stoneblade route because the lack of counterbalance makes it hard to stabilize vs burn decks. This plays a lot more like old school landstill style draw go if you don't have the engine going.

Lands (22: can't cheat on lands anymore w/o the top :cry:)
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wasteland

Removal (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgment

Cantrips/Miracles Setup (12)
3 Scroll Rack
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

Counter Magic (5)
3 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

Card Advantage/Win Cons (9)
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Life from the Loam
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage

SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Counterbalance

[drocker23]

Can someone explain the interaction with scroll rack and life from the loam?

[Noctalor]

Can someone explain the interaction with scroll rack and life from the loam?

Cast loam on 3 lands
Activate rack, putting the 3 lands back on top, drawing 3 fresh cards
Next turn dredge 3 with loam, you are gonna dredge the 3 lands

Repeat

[H]

Soothsaying once it is in play is too mana intensive for it to be useful. Paying 3 mana for Soothsaying is much worse than paying a single mana for Top. At least with Scroll Rack the mana efficiency is still there, provided, you set it up via cards in hand.

CalebD was streaming a Legacy League last night with Topless Miracles (:eyebrow:) with Soothsaying.

Soothsaying was pretty terrible from what I saw, but obviously you will win some number of games just off the fact that most of the cards in the deck are still idividually good.

You can watch that portion of the stream here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/138054314?t=03h21m00s).

[Poron]

Soothsaying is so mana consuming it hurts to even think about it.

[Ghost588]

Instead of Entreat, do you think this is the time for thopter/combo to come back? With decay not being around as much thought it might be an okay option.

[NetterMizuno]

Im curious what would you guys think of something like this.

As Miracles Foretold

Sorcery (10)
1x Council's Judgment
1x Entreat the Angels
3x Ponder
3x Restore Balance
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Terminus

Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Instant (16)
3x Brainstorm
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare
4x Swords to Plowshares

Enchantment (5)
3x As Foretold
2x Back to Basics

Land (21)
4x Flooded Strand
6x Island
5x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tundra

Creature (6)
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Spell Queller

Edit: i love the idea of thopter/sword as the poster before me did mention it so it could work here as 3/2 or even just 2/1 split like minus entreat and 1 queller 1 snare Plus 2 foundry and sword

Bored at work let me brainstorm this so all you miracle masters what are your toughts.

[Ghost588]

^^ Thank you!

This is just an idea. With the influx of BGX decks I think we run as few creatures as possible to make push, decay, bolt worthless. Now that decay should see less play I do like the thopter combo again and with Academy Ruins.

Thopter Foundry x3
Sword of the Meek x2
FoW x4
StP x4
Brainstrom x4
Ponder x3
Snapcaster x4
JtMS x2
Supreme Verict x1
Moat x1
Dragonlord Ojutai x2 (could be V clique or anything else)
Counterspell x3
Terminus x1
Sudden Demise x1
EE X1
E Tutor x2 (could go down to 1 and run a moon main?)

Granted this could be changed if we wanted to go more towards a standstill route.
Academy Ruins + EE could be a thing again.
Sudden Demise is a card I’ve used before and I enjoyed it. Easy board wipe.
If we are worried about an influx of land decks we could run 2 Moons main or B2B.

No matter which way we go, we won’t be “miracles”. I’m not sure if we created a very heavy control shell with Nahiri if that would be worth it or like a UW Standstill deck like in vintage.

[Poron]

2x Crucible to give it inevitability

Transmute Artifact to get Ensnaring Bridge or Crucible or Sword of the Meek

E.E. to make Academy Ruins just unfair.

The perfect shell for this is the Intuition+Loam one
Loam, Academy, E.E/Chalice whatever...

too slow for the format anyway.

[claulis]

So I was just brainstorming/brewin yesterday about some possible instant speed scry-ish effects to replace top to keep counterbalance still relevant.

Here are a couple of options I found and wondering what everyone thinks. Some give some additional value and some are just the scry effect.

Opt
Lose Hope
Condescend
Lim-Dûl's Vault
Natural Selection
Telling Time
Trickery Charm

Maybe these are bad ideas but maybe not, have to try them out. I like trickery Charm because its 4 cards vs 3 or less and has some other value besides just the reordering the top of your library.

[jdmdave]

I think it boils down to opt (doesn't dig deep enough) vs portent (sorcery) vs mystic speculation (sorcery, mana intensive) vs preordain (sorcery)

[icedagger]

How about Mirri's Guile? It at least sticks around and gives you some filtering. Might need to cut the red splash for a green one though.

[Pelikanudo]

I am a Storm player, and few times Miracles player. All I can say is that the best card in this deck was SDT, you can try to add cards which replace SDT to try to make Miracles a viable option, however this is a great mistake.

[klaus]

I'm with Parcher. Miracles will survive.
Here's a first draft off the top of my head:

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

4 SCM
4 MM

3 Jace

4 FoW
3 CS
2 Snare

4 STP
2 SV
2 Terminus
1 CJ
(40)

8 Fetches
4 Tundra
6 Island
2 Plains

SB:
2 Clique
2 Fluster
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
3 S. Extraction
1 Terminus
2 BeB
1 EA

Some thoughts:
* The red splash is no longer needed, since REB will be less relevant
* 19 land is sufficient (even with 3 Jace, and 2 SV), since Preordain fixes land-light hands better than Top. Also straight UW allows to fetch for basics.
* 4 SCM to max out BSs for Terminus, EA, and Predict
* Might need 1 more counter in the MD
* Vedalken Shackles might be an option now that Disenchant effects will recede
* In a more general perspective: "downgraded" Miracles will face considerably less dedicated Miracles hate, due to its downfall.

[decan]

From a competitive standpoint there is absolute no reason to play miracles.
You can make terminus or supreme verdict work, you will beat all the creature decks. However the real problem are the combo decks (even elves).
With top you had a reliable countertop lock and most importantly one could hide a fow from discard. now all of these options are gone. This makes u lose g1 much more often vs combo.
Having creatures like canonist as hate cards also is far from optimal, in a sweeper deck.

There could be a playable version of miracles. but if u guys want to win tournaments, play something different and stop wasting time.

[Poron]

your deck is a mere UW Mentor.

Add Stoneforge and TNN for more fun, change StP for Bolt and you're there

[FZA]

Playing 1-2 copies of Terminus in an otherwise generic UW control list doesn't seem overly crazy to me, as long as you have the cantrips to support it. I've seen UR Delver lists in the past running Thunderous Wrath with only Brainstorm and Ponder to set it up.

Counterbalance and Predict are unplayable now though, so a new UW deck would need an alternate source of card advantage. Besides Standstill I can't really think of a one.

[Hanni]

Counterbalance and Predict are unplayable now though, so a new UW deck would need an alternate source of card advantage. Besides Standstill I can't really think of a one.

Stoneforge Mystic, 1-2 copies of Painful Truths, Tasigur, 3-4 JTMS.

[ScottW]

Stoneforge Mystic, 1-2 copies of Painful Truths, Tasigur, 3-4 JTMS.

Loam

[Hanni]

Loam

There are more synergistic piles if you want to play Loam, though. Loam and Scroll Rack is cool, but if start going that route, you'll end up with a completely different deck by the time you're done. See The Mind Harvester. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21620-U-B-g-The-Mind-Harvester)

[ScottW]

There are more synergistic piles if you want to play Loam, though. Loam and Scroll Rack is cool, but if start going that route, you'll end up with a completely different deck by the time you're done. See The Mind Harvester. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21620-U-B-g-The-Mind-Harvester)

I wasn't thinking Loam / Rack. More like Exploration and then load up on Terminus and Entreat and play some cycle lands, Noxious Revival, and a few SCM. I played it a bit last night and it was pretty wild making a ton of Angels and wraths. I also played Mox Diamond.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Well it's been fun, but Top definitely had to go. If you played this deck right you should have easily had 80-85% MWP against the field. In fact, the deck was so good that you could play bad cards like Predict and Venser and not even play the full 4 maindeck Mentor and still do very well with the deck. I'll catch you guys in the other threads - time to sleeve up Seas.

[drocker23]

Has anyone considered a control deck built around nahiri the harbinger as the win condition?

[Lormador]

I disagree that Top had to go. Counterbalance and Top had been pillars of control decks in the format since their printing and there was never a problem with them before. Think about how long ago that was. People were dealing with Survival, Goblins, and High Tide back then.

It's the Miracle cards themselves, particularly Terminus, that should have been banned instead of the archetype-defining Countertop package. I would have been happy slinging a tier 2 deck with Supreme Verdicts instead of Terminus. However, for reasons unknown to myself I hate creature decks, and am not faced with the prospect of sliding basically the whole show across the table at my LGS in search of my next deck.

It will be Seas that get shipped back my way, but as I have class, they will be part of Storm and not whatever goofy goodstuff deck WOTC's pushed creatures are fueling this time around.

[phg22]

I've started to brew a bit with Nahiri. Could play blood moon, some number of Snapcasters and Cliques, and a bunch of removal and counters. Probably needs the moons and something like Venser to beat Karakas, maybe Wastelands? Since we're already playing Nahiri as a four mana walker to win the game, I like playing JVP over JTMS.

[nonja]

Why not to try Soothsaying?
Back in old days it was really playable

[MorphBerlin]

Well it's been fun, but Top definitely had to go. If you played this deck right you should have easily had 80-85% MWP against the field. In fact, the deck was so good that you could play bad cards like Predict and Venser and not even play the full 4 maindeck Mentor and still do very well with the deck. I'll catch you guys in the other threads - time to sleeve up Seas.

It's funny how many Miraclesplayes are still too biased to see that. I picked up the deck for the last 3 local weeklies and it was just a joke how many puns you could make (and I did make many obviously) and still have game against every deck in the room. Hell I was even 2-0 against Manaless Dredge. I think UWx control is still viable honestly, you will jsut have to put in some work and accapt that you will have bad MUs (just like everybody else in the format, welcome back to the rest of the field, you enjoyed this "ride long enough)

And while it might be true that Terminus or CB would have been nicer to keep the deck somewhat alive, Wizards logic was allways to ban the enabler not the payoff, so it just makes sense that top had to go unfortunatly.

[Cipher]

It's funny how many Miraclesplayes are still too biased to see that. I picked up the deck for the last 3 local weeklies and it was just a joke how many puns you could make (and I did make many obviously) and still have game against every deck in the room. Hell I was even 2-0 against Manaless Dredge. I think UWx control is still viable honestly, you will jsut have to put in some work and accapt that you will have bad MUs (just like everybody else in the format, welcome back to the rest of the field, you enjoyed this "ride long enough)

And while it might be true that Terminus or CB would have been nicer to keep the deck somewhat alive, Wizards logic was allways to ban the enabler not the payoff, so it just makes sense that top had to go unfortunatly.
Same can be said about Delver decks.

People are just used to control decks in other formats that are so underpowered you have to tip-toe the margins to get a win. Miracles was one the only Control deck in recent memory where you had tools strong enough to actually run away with the game. Considering they never have mentioned any statistics in regards to it's win rate, I assume it's not even that much higher than other Tier 1 Legacy decks. If it had been a midrange Stoneblade deck people would have been fine with this, but since it was creatureless control it ended up getting a public execution...

And don't tell me they "only ban enablers", when Modern is littered with decks like Dredge and Eldrazi that completely wrecked the format and were only nerfed from Tier 0 to Tier 1. They know damn well how to balance and curb overpowered decks; killing off Miracles was a conscious decision. Dredge, a cheap, totally degenerate Modern deck that had only been around a few months, was spared whereas Miracles just had to go?

[entreri_fans]

Hi, has anyone tried Sylvan Library to replace SDT after the ban?

I know it is a much more clunky card compared with SDT (higher cost, less flexible activation, mess our manabase).

But it can keep the Terminus/EtA on our library top as long as we don't want to draw it.

Mirri's Guile almost does the same, except for less cost and not allowing additional cards draw.

I know the archetype is destroyed by Wizards, but I still want to play Miracle cards in Legacy, even if this is a tier 2 or tier 3:tongue:

Would appreciate for any input, thanks:tongue:

[Lormador]

For me, it's about history as well as finance. For as long as Countertop has existed, it's been a pillar of Legacy's control decks. Sometimes it's been great, sometimes it's been sort of barely playable, but it's never been a stranger to the tables. Both super-competitive players and those who just HAD to jam mono U control used the combination, and Top found a home all over the place.

For years and years Wizards kept it legal because it was, indeed, not overpowered at all. Then they printed these Miracle cards and the archetype took off, becoming ultimately the supreme deck is oh so recently was. It's perfectly obvious to anyone who's actually been playing the game for long enough that those Miracle cards were what pushed the deck over the edge. Prior to the Miracle cards, you had to be some crazed brewer in search of a good Maverick matchup that didn't also lose to combo in order to sleeve up Countertop.

Wizards screwed up again in the interim period with the Delve cards, and for awhile Miracles wasn't the top dog (though it was certainly fine). This error is eventually rectified, in which process Wizards almost intentionally and knowingly put Miracles back on top. After another long period of dominance, we get this.

It's utterly infuriating. There people were, dedicated fans of Countertop in 2012, tooling along as they had been for years, happily using Countertop to occasionally win games of Magic. Imagine the intervening events compressed into a short period of time to realize their absurdity.

"Here's Terminus, enjoy!"

[Eyes get all big, wins a bunch of games, but half an hour later] "Oh oops, it's too good, Top is hereby banned, your deck is now worth $500 less and all the stuff you might want to trade into just went up 20%, have fun playing Legacy: the format we care about and support."

[acidhead]

Seriously, what dropped in price? Top, CB and the Miracle Spells? Wasn't that the cheap stuff in this deck anyways?

Btw, there is a new creatureless control deck in hatching which plays 3/0 mana Balance and Ancestral Recalls. Sure, it prolly misses the sweet hard lock and constant Card Quality, so we're back on the ancient power-relation that combo beats control and control beats aggro. But I'm pretty sure it will be a nice control deck anyways and it won't be the first which brings in all the hate against combo from the side. And speaking of aggro: where are this ultra-agressive Zoo builds, now that they didn't have to fear the hardlock and instant ultra-wrath for {w} in the new meta?

So, while you're wailing I already have a ton of fun crushing my opponents with glorious ANT freed from it's green splash and ever-sweet Canadian.

As hard this ban struck me in the first place, I'm starting to like it every day a little bit more.

[jdmdave]

Maybe shift gears back to the old enlightened tutor build? Rip/Energy field reduces dependence on terminus and the tutor package plays nicely with c balance. Combine with higher jace count and profit?

[mike1987]

These ppl might be onto something here:

1)https://mtgdecks.net/deck/mtgo_competitive_legacy_constructed_league/legacy/sunsong_5_0_sunsong/682451/

2)https://twitter.com/KMD_ADVANTAGE/status/857587775113056257

Does anyone have the full decklist of the second link, cant seem to view the picture in full.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Ojutais, Restoration Angels. Those guys are far too spicy for me.

[Poron]

our colors still have

For creatures, up to:

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 REB
4 Pyroclasm/Volcanic Fallout/K. Return
4 Supreme Verdict

4 Snapcaster Mage

For combo

Flusterstorm
Spell Snare
Force of Will
Mind Break Trap
Containment Priest
Karakas
Orim's Chant/Silence

This colors for control are all but dead.
Counterbalance was not so strong with only Decays, Caverns and Vials around and 90% of the time Terminus would have been the same as casting K. Return (DRS, Delver decks).

In my opinion, we still have the same big problem we had before: how do we win? That's why BDD started playing 4 Mentors and no Terminus MD

[jdmdave]

My response keeps getting deleted for some reason. I've been testing Condescend/JTMS miracles to pretty strong results on MTGO. It's not as good as the deck used to be, but it's doing pretty well. I'll try Portent/Opt/Mystic Speculation next.

* 4 Ponder
* 2 Condescend
* 4 Bstorm
* 4 Snap
* 4 Cbalance
* 4 JTMS
* 1 E-explosives
* 1 Council's
* 4 Terminus
* 4 STP
* 4 Force
* 2 Counterspell
* 1 Flusterstorm (Counterspell/Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce/Spell Snare count needs to be adjusted)
* 10 Fetch
* 2 Volc
* 2 Tundra (Mirroring IRL collection
* 2 Plains
* 5 Island

Sideboard

* 2 Flusterstorm
* 2 Blood Moon
* 4 REB
* 2 Surgical
* 1 Containment
* 2 Wear/Tear
* 2 Vcliue

[laywer]

Trying this right now. Let's see if it works:

http://i65.tinypic.com/mts03q.jpg

[melaar]

« We need alternatives, Hanna, » yelled Gerrard. « Now ! »
Opt surround text is appropriated to our situation. I'm testing the card at the moment and I think it is rather not bad.

[kentheide]

Trying this right now. Let's see if it works:

http://i65.tinypic.com/mts03q.jpg

This deck is called Stoneblade.

[Minniehajj]

This deck is called Stoneblade.

That's pretty much what we have to talk about at this point.


Trying this right now. Let's see if it works:

http://i65.tinypic.com/mts03q.jpg


A few criticisms of the list: I think you need -1 SFM because 2 + 1 equipment has always been enough, and I don't see why you need 3 if you only have 1 equipment to fetch. I would replace the 3rd with a second spell snare.

Secondly, I think you strongly need a basic mountain or a 3rd Volcanic Island if you have this many red cards in your sideboard that you're incentivized to bring in vs Delver, as I don't believe that 2 Volc alone is sustainable.

Finally, I understand you're just testing, as I have, but I think any # of Miracles cards want your manipulation suite to be at it's highest. That likely means 4 JTMS and less Predicts because Predict simply is just too difficult to sustain CA from with only 8 Cantrip effects.

Just my two cents, hope your testing goes well!

[drocker23]

I think the evolution of miracles is basically going to go in one of two directions:

1) as soon as someone puts up major results at a big tournament with stoneblade everyone will gravitate toward that
Or
2) Someone will come up with a cantrip heavy uw/x draw go control deck that maxes out on Monastery Mentor and Jace, the Mind Sculptor as it's primary win conditions.

But overall, I believe that without Sensei's Divining Top, the miracles cards are just dead until they print something else that will act as an enabler because right now all the enablers are awful. I seriously doubt there's some card out there that someone hasn't thought of yet that will bring the deck back from the brink of death.

Maybe Landstill will do something but I'm not holding my breath

[jdmdave]

So I got in about 30 matches with portent miracles on MTGO and I really like what I'm seeing. Portent into Opponent Upkeep Terminus is pretty damn strong while also helping set up counterbalance. It's obviously not as good as SDT, but I think we might have something here as the playstyle just feels a lot smoother than the soothsaying builds. I played all of the games without a sideboard, but I think a standard 2xish Blood moon/From the Ashes, 2 Clique, 3 Gravehate of choice, 3-4 REB, 2-3 flusterstorm, 2ish wear/tear approach might work out of the gate.

Maindeck

* 4 Portent
* 4 Ponder
* 4 Brainstorm
* 4 Counterbalance
* 4 Force of Will
* 4 Swords to Plowshares
* 4 Snapcaster Mage
* 4 Terminus
* 3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
* 1 Council's Judgment
* 2 Counterspell
* 1 Spell Pierce
* 1 Flusterstorm (This is the flex slot. I'm tempted to turn this into either JTMS #4, Vclique, 3rd Counterspell, E Explosive, Maindeck Pyroblast in appropriate meta, or something else).
* 4 Scalding Tarn
* 4 Flooded Strand
* 2 Arid Mesa
* 2 Plains
* 4 Island
* 2 Volcanic Island
* 2 Tundra

Sideboard (Prospective)

* 2 Flusterstorm
* 1 Kozilek's Return
* 3 Pyroblast (REB also works since we aren't using Mentor)
* 2 Surgical Extraction
* 1 Containment Priest
* 2 Wear/Tear
* 2 Blood Moon (I prefer it to From the Ashes/Ruination due to being 3 CMC, and over BTB because I'm cheap)
* 2 Vendilion Clique

[entreri_fans]

Neo Miracle List

Hello jdmdave! Thanks for sharing your Portent Miracle list!

You are still playing a full set of Terminus but no Entreat? It is because you feel it is much more difficult to setup it now (compared with Terminus)? Without EtA, do you feel 4 snapcasters and 3 JTMS suffice as your win condition?

Thanks:tongue:

[icedagger]

@jdmdave: How does it do in specific matchups? Anything giving you any trouble?

[jdmdave]

I'd say pretty similar to pre-ban matchups, except Leovold based Bug decks are even more of a pain in the ass. I'll run the deck at a side event of the GP this weekend to find out more. This deck has ABSOLUTELY no problem setting up C-balance. By default more 1 cmc stuff will slip through counterbalance, but JTMS is just a ridiculous magic card.

As for the lack of entreat/win cons, the deck doesn't have the luxury of instant speed on demand entreating due to the lack of top, so it's much more reliant upon JTMS upticks to win. Maybe the Flusterstorm flexstop should become entreat? I do feel that the deck is wayyyy too low on 3 cmc (just 1 atm) and might have issues winning matches in a 50 minute timeframe.

[Poron]

Leovold based decks super suffer Pyroclasm and REBs

Snapcaster Mage give you 8 of each, potentially. Now there is also Sweltering Suns

[AppallinglyDull]

So I got in about 30 matches with portent miracles on MTGO and I really like what I'm seeing. Portent into Opponent Upkeep Terminus is pretty damn strong while also helping set up counterbalance.

I've also been testing out Portent Miracles (just against myself with two windows of TappedOut, since I don't have MTGO, so not the best testing obviously, but it is what it is...). I've gone a slightly different route and dropped Counterbalance since SDT is gone. I've added 2 Cliques (for help closing out the game, disruption/clock against combo, and to filter dead cards away), two Entreats, and more main-deck countermagic to compensate for the lack of Counterbalance. My current testing build is:

4 Snapcaster
2 V Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Portent
1 Pyroclasm
4 Terminus

1 Eng Explosives
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

20 land (9 fetch, 4 island, 2 plains, 3 tundra, 2 volcanic)


So far it feels... ok. Perhaps Ponder should find its way back in, though I worry about including too many cantrips and not enough action. I could see cutting a Spell Pierce and another card (maybe one Entreat) for 2 Ponder, at least.

One interaction I do like is being able to Portent, shuffle, then Jace-brainstorm to draw three and put back two, and then Portent's delayed draw should still work, which does give more looks at finding a Terminus / Entreat without needing to hope for a lucky topdeck off the Portent shuffle.

[jdmdave]

Looks pretty similar. I really do think Counterbalance is one of the main payoffs for staying UW/r as JTMS + Cbalance is absolutely backbreaking.

[Poron]

I give it my try

4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, TMS.
4 Monastery Mentor (avoids Spell Pierce/Snare/Reb)

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Pyroclasm
0-2 Meekstone (drop one of these babies against Leovold/TNN or Eldrazi and everything becomes bad for him)
0-2 Curfew(SneakShow drops, Marit Lage for him. Asymmetrycal for you because you can bounce back the token self created from Mentor, Snapback your own Mage, save your Mentor from Decay).

2 Council's Judgement
2 Wear Tear/the new cycler
1+1 From the Ashes (we want our chance against 12 post decks and similar)

3 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell

4 Rebs
1 more Pyroclasm
3 Flusterstorm
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Leyline of Sanctity

I know I went over 60. Some cards go to the SB, that's a 75

[laywer]

That's pretty much what we have to talk about at this point.




A few criticisms of the list: I think you need -1 SFM because 2 + 1 equipment has always been enough, and I don't see why you need 3 if you only have 1 equipment to fetch. I would replace the 3rd with a second spell snare.

Secondly, I think you strongly need a basic mountain or a 3rd Volcanic Island if you have this many red cards in your sideboard that you're incentivized to bring in vs Delver, as I don't believe that 2 Volc alone is sustainable.

Finally, I understand you're just testing, as I have, but I think any # of Miracles cards want your manipulation suite to be at it's highest. That likely means 4 JTMS and less Predicts because Predict simply is just too difficult to sustain CA from with only 8 Cantrip effects.

Just my two cents, hope your testing goes well!

Thanks for the tips. Anyway, in tests, I missed clique and you are right about predicts and sfm.

[jdmdave]

I'm going to start tracking results for my miracles list, but I'll be somewhat slow until mid June (preparing for the CFA Level 3 exam). I've got about another 10 matches under my belt with the above listed portent build, but I'm still not sure if the flusterstorm should be counterspell #3, Noxious Revival #1, Predict #1, Spell Pierce #2, or Spell Snare #1 (testing counterspell).

Quick Match Results

BUG - 2-0 (2-1/2-0). My old strategy was sideboarding out Cbalance+FOW, so the new JTMS + Counterspell heavy build did serious work. Deck felt REALLY smooth with portent -> terminus dodging D-rite/Hymn.
Reanimator - 1-1. Force check coinflip
Eldrazi - 1-2. Lack of instant speed terminus becomes pretty noticeable in this matchup. Needs work.
Storm - 1-0. Counterlock with JTMS + Cbalance is strong. Removal of Abrupt Decay was noticeable.
Elves - 1-1. Dude must've shit bricks with portent into terminus. Second match got rolled due to not finding terminus in time.

* 2 Volcanic Island
* 2 Tundra (Mirroring IRL Cardpool)
* 4 Island
* 2 Plains
* 4 Flooded Strand
* 4 Scalding Tarn
* 2 Arid Mesa
* 4 Counterbalance
* 4 Ponder
* 4 Brainstorm
* 4 Portent
* 4 STP
* 4 Terminus
* 3 JTMS
* 1 Council's Judgment
* 4 Snapcaster Mage
* 3 Counterspell
* 1 Spell Pierce
* 4 Force of Will

Sideboard

* 2 Blood Moon (I'll test ruination/BFB)
* 4 REB (Fuck Leovold)
* 2 Surgical (Reanimator)
* 1 Containment Priest (Reanimator/S&S)
* 2 Vclique (BUG/S&S)
* 2 Flusterstorm (Storm/Control)
* 2 Wear/Tear (General purpose, but I'm not sure this is really necessary anymore. We don't care about pithing needle anymore, it sucks as a CB flip, and their isn't a mirror match anymore). Considering supreme verdict/E-explosives/something for the BUG matchup in this slot (Gideon/Elspeth)

[Kobal]

jdmdave, have you given any thought of working Predict into that Portent shell?

[jdmdave]

I actually have! Either just a straight swap for the 3rd counterspell, or put in 2 predicts in place of a counterspell+spell pierce/counterbalance.

[Tormod]

In the search for a card or card combinations to replicate what top did. It becomes clear how busted top was at 1 mana.

4 or 5 mana would be more reasonable.

[btm10]

In the search for a card or card combinations to replicate what top did. It becomes clear how busted top was at 1 mana.

4 or 5 mana would be more reasonable.

Elemental Augury does it for 3 and can target your opponent.

[Lormador]

I will say that although the deck is not now, in my view, playable at all, it has certainly come into by far the best deck name in all of Magic: Topless Miracles. :cool:

[kentheide]

Looks pretty similar. I really do think Counterbalance is one of the main payoffs for staying UW/r as JTMS + Cbalance is absolutely backbreaking.

The main and pretty much only payoff for staying UWr is blast effects. That being said I don't believe either Counterbalance, Terminus, Monastery Mentor or Entreat the Angels are good enough by themselves to be played anymore.

[jdmdave]

8-0 over various legacy irl legacy events at the GP with the above list. This deck feels REALLY strong.

* 2-1 vs DnT
* 2-0 vs BR Reanimator
* 2-0 vs Burn
* 2-1 vs BR Reanimator
* 2-1 vs 4c Pile
* 2-0 vs Food Chain
* 2-0 vs RG Lands
* 2-0 vs BUG Leovold

Updates coming.

[twndomn]

Uh..., is it just me or... does the deck attempt to win via Snapcaster beats and Jace backdoor?

Assume they will get there..., how much of the surprise factor contributing to the wins? As in, people just assume Miracles has died and not run Decay anymore.

[Nestalim]

8-0 over various legacy irl legacy events at the GP with the above list. This deck feels REALLY strong.

* 2-1 vs DnT
* 2-0 vs BR Reanimator
* 2-0 vs Burn
* 2-1 vs BR Reanimator
* 2-1 vs 4c Pile
* 2-0 vs Food Chain
* 2-0 vs RG Lands
* 2-0 vs BUG Leovold

Updates coming.

You changed nothing in the list ? Did you try Predict ? Keep us informed.

[klaus]

@jdmdave:
No wincon beyond SCM & Jace seems meh. 4 CB seems meh - even before the ban of Top, most successful lists have come to drop one. CB #4 --> EtA seems like a no-brainer to me.

[crowe_1]

8-0 over various legacy irl legacy events at the GP with the above list. This deck feels REALLY strong.

* 2-1 vs DnT
* 2-0 vs BR Reanimator
* 2-0 vs Burn
* 2-1 vs BR Reanimator
* 2-1 vs 4c Pile
* 2-0 vs Food Chain
* 2-0 vs RG Lands
* 2-0 vs BUG Leovold

Updates coming.

Looking forward to the updates. I feel like with a pre-ban list it would be tough to get those results. Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out Top was actually holding the deck back all this time? Sigh...a man can dream.

[Minniehajj]

Looking forward to the updates. I feel like with a pre-ban list it would be tough to get those results. Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out Top was actually holding the deck back all this time? Sigh...a man can dream.

Sadly, that is impossible.

Looking forward to hearing the updates as well! I'm convinced CB is unplayable, but Terminus still seems reasonable with enough setup, it's so powerful.

[jdmdave]

You guys keep slamming CB as unplayable, but trust me, it very much IS playable. I highly recommend you guys give my list a spin before laying judgment.

That said 3 CB + 1 Clique might be better than 4 CB/0 clique, but I'll need to grind more online before I come to a more definitive conclusion.

[Minniehajj]

You guys keep slamming CB as unplayable, but trust me, it very much IS playable. I highly recommend you guys give my list a spin before laying judgment.

That said 3 CB + 1 Clique might be better than 4 CB/0 clique, but I'll need to grind more online before I come to a more definitive conclusion.

I'm slamming it as unplayable after extensively testing it, alongside the full spectrum of enablers. It's just not strong or consistent enough.

[jdmdave]

Have you tried my list?

[Minniehajj]

Have you tried my list?

Yes, it was among the first that I tried, as well as deviations from it that my friends have shared. CB is not sustainable at a high, consistent level.

[jdmdave]

I'll grind the comp league before coming to a final judgment, but the card has overperformed for me, particularly in this delver/storm infested meta. I'll also try a legend package and a stoneforge package.

[WinterRat1]

Sadly, that is impossible.

Looking forward to hearing the updates as well! I'm convinced CB is unplayable, but Terminus still seems reasonable with enough setup, it's so powerful.

How many cantrips do you all think are necessary to make Terminus playable?

Do you think 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder is enough (along with 4 Snapcaster Mages), or would more be needed?

And if Terminus is playable, is it still a 4-of, or would it be necessary to reduce the number in the main to avoid overly clunky hands/draws?

[gh0st_b1rd]

Yes, it was among the first that I tried, as well as deviations from it that my friends have shared. CB is not sustainable at a high, consistent level.

Have you tried the suite with 4 Portents and 4 Predicts?

[jdmdave]

I understand that counterbalance is up for debate, but I absolutely feel that terminus is currently playable as a 4 of. Between Brainstorm/Ponder/Portent/Jace/Snapcaster, it's incredibly easy to stack it on top.

Yes, you have a far lower instance of instant speed blow outs, but a 3-for-1 is still a 3-for-1

Edit: I've also noticed I'm winning a ton of postboard matches with blood moon - Perhaps it should be mainboarded? Blood Moon into JTMS is GG vs so many decks.

[twndomn]

I'll grind the comp league before coming to a final judgment, but the card has overperformed for me, particularly in this delver/storm infested meta. I'll also try a legend package and a stoneforge package.

I have been using your list with couple changes. Here's my findings:

1. With enough cantrips, it is possible to pseudo float cmc 1 and 2. Of course, it's less consistent. However, as long as you cast a cantrip every turn, and sometimes via Snapcaster flashback, it might just be enough against Delver decks. Portent makes a lot of sense here.

2. Takes a long time to win. If you run into combo decks, you can certainly win quickly by Snapcaster beats. But if you run into fair decks like DnT, this would turn into grind-fest fast and you have no Entreat to close out. Yes, after I disenchant like 4 times (via Snapcasters), cleared out jitte, skull, and sofi, finally I was able to stabilize and pretty much drained all the clock to get a win for that game, but that won't close out the match.

3. As much as I want to run 3 Jace, this combo-infest meta just isn't allowing that to happen. There is no way for me to tap out Main Phase to cast Jace against combo, unless we just fought a counter war and I need to reload my hand anyway.

4. Surprise factor. People just assume that Miracles players cease to exist and they'll never need decay for CB.

Hence, my Modified version:

4 snapcaster mage
1 vendillion clique
3 counterbalance
4 brainstorm
3 counterspell
4 force of will
1 spell pierce
1 spell snare
4 stp
2 jace
1 council's judgement
3 ponder
4 portent
1 supreme verdict
3 terminus
1 batterskull
20 the usual lands

SB:
1 pithing needle
1 containment priest
2 ethersworn canonist
1 vendilion clique
2 disenchant
2 flusterstorm
1 kozilek's return
2 pyroblast
2 surgical extraction
1 from the ashes

card choices:
1. Since it's harder to float, want to reduce Miracle cards count, verdict is better against tempo decks anyway.
2. The actual win-con is the batterskull and the MD clique. I would still have 2 cliques in the 75 in this combo meta, no matter MD or SB, I just happen to split them.
3. Canonists for Storm combo, Containment Priests for other combos, i.e. show and tell, elves, reanimator, and Vial decks like DnT.

With the inability to float 2, it's now very, very difficult to stop Loam. Our MU against Lands is now unfavorable. You Have to Clique that Loam away. If they happen to found multiple, it'll be very difficult. Now, all the fast combos are punching Lands into the ground, though Lands have plenty of combo hate in its SB. Hence this MU problem might just take care itself by the Meta.

[jdmdave]

Basically in agreement with all of your points. My biggest issue was winning games in a 50 minute window and floating 2cmc consistently. My two points of disagreement regarding the list are the supreme verdict over the 4th Terminus and only 3 ponders, but these are minor gripes. I love the look on my opponents faces when they get portent -> Terminused, PARTICULARLY with an active leovold. As for Batterskull vs Jace and the counterspell/pierce/snare ratio, please let me know how it goes.

One interaction people sometimes forget about Portent is that you can actually actively screw with your opponents topdecks, which is particularly effective vs nonblue decks. I had this come up vs BR reanimator in a topdecking situation where I just gave him reanimate-reanimate then abrupt decay with an active 1cmc counterbalance online.

My Sideboard is pretty similar, but I really like blood moon over BTB/FTA/Ruination. The card just ends games on the spot.

* 1 EE
* 2 Vclique
* 3 Pblast
* 2 Blood Moon
* 2 Wear/Tear
* 2 Flusterstorm
* 1 Canonist
* 2 Surgical

I'm taking the CFA Level 2 Exam beginning of June, so I'll start testing in earnest after the 3rd of June.

[Richard Arschmann]

jdmdave, what do you think of using Personal Tutor in the Portent list in tandem with your cantrip package? It can be either a Terminus or an Entreat or some other one-of that may be useful (From the Ashes postboard vs. 4c grindy midrange.dec). It could even be a Portent for when you need one. I would cut 1 Counterspell 1 Ponder 1 Snapcaster and add in 2 Personal Tutor/1 Entreat. This allows us to use Entreat against lists where we want a quick closeout. It also allows us to grab Council's Judgment when it is needed. Personally, I like From the Ashes instead of Blood Moon because every 4c deck is BG and has the ability to float BG for Abrupt Decay.




There is also Arcane Denial, which could be used in place of Counterspell as both a filter that draws 3 on your opponent's turn for Terminus or a subpar hard counter that answers cards you just can't afford to let resolve like Infernal Tutor. This seems way too cute.

[jdmdave]

So a quick update - I was testing a mini stoneblade package (+2 SFM, +1 Bskull, -1 counterbalance, -1 JTMS, -1 Counterspell) and didn't like it, but I had pretty reasonable success with a legends package (-1 JTMS, -1 Cbalance, -1 Snap, -1 Judgment, +1 Karakas, +2 Vclique, +1 Venser). Anyone else have updates?

[Richard Arschmann]

I'm going to start testing some stuff in paper with some Portent lists soon

[Nestalim]

Played Portent Miracle last night at my fnm, went 4-0 against shardless, grixis delver, goblins and rug delver. Report to come.

[jdmdave]

How close is your list to mine? I've been doing more testing and have found myself reverting to a 3 CB + 1 Vclique build over SFM package or Legends

[Nestalim]

I will post my list soon. But it is a predict build with counterbalance and 2 EtA. No clique, no sfm package.

[jdmdave]

I've been tempted to try 19 land predict build, but felt it would be too inconsistent with Jace. How did you find ETA without access to consistent opponent EOT triggering?

[Epeirogeny]

Why is Miracles still a DTB with Sensei's Top banned?

[gh0st_b1rd]

I've been tempted to try 19 land predict build, but felt it would be too inconsistent with Jace. How did you find ETA without access to consistent opponent EOT triggering?

Brainstorms and Snapcaster targeting Brainstorm. For me is has been enough to trigger EtA.

[Goofball]

Why is Miracles still a DTB with Sensei's Top banned?

I believe it has to something to do with monthly review of how decks are performing, and said period hasn't rolled over yet.

[twndomn]

Brainstorms and Snapcaster targeting Brainstorm. For me is has been enough to trigger EtA.

In few instances when your opponent's actually on fair deck, usually he's on something that would run DRS, like Grixis YP. If that's the case it's very difficult to rely on Snapcaster, since you have to time it well for every flashback cards and sometimes brainstorm is just not an option.

Looking at the meta, EtA is almost a dead card. Sure it's good against lands, but right now the meta is full of combos, and the tempo delver decks that try to fight combos. In both cases, Entreat is just horrible. I agree with jdmdave, EtA timing is just not worth the setup.

[Poron]

Jeskai control, anyway, will be a thing, imho.

Kozilek's Return or Volcanic Fallout resolve 80% of the threats around and we have access to Judgement Snapcaster and StP for everything else

No to mention Flusterstorm, Pyroblast and Wear/Tear. Being white so rare we are also one of the few that can play Containment Priest

3 Mentors and Clique+Karakas will finish him. We can move on

The only problem is the combo of Fatal Push + Decay + Command + Bolt around. May be Flash-Avacyn is worth its spot

[gh0st_b1rd]

In few instances when your opponent's actually on fair deck, usually he's on something that would run DRS, like Grixis YP. If that's the case it's very difficult to rely on Snapcaster, since you have to time it well for every flashback cards and sometimes brainstorm is just not an option.

I would say it depends on the board state with the DRS in play. If its early game I still have enough other gas in my hand to eventually find an answer. If its late I'm assuming its a topdeck war and I'm more than likely going to hardcast my EtA instead of Snap into BS as a way to set up my EtA. While sculpting your hand you could sculpt around having two Brainstorms in hand to set up your EtA. It isnt very hard to do when you run a full set of Portents and Predicts as well a deck with mostly generic cards. I generally find most of my topdecks satisfactory but the lack of Top has made ratios healthily awkward.


Looking at the meta, EtA is almost a dead card. Sure it's good against lands, but right now the meta is full of combos, and the tempo delver decks that try to fight combos. In both cases, Entreat is just horrible. I agree with jdmdave, EtA timing is just not worth the setup.

I would argue that if you wanted a win condition vs Delver it wouldnt really matter and that having a Moorland Haunt or Millstone as your win condition would be about as close to that of EtA. I left the EtA in because that was how I felt about my match ups vs fair decks, but had alsp felt that EtA was at least a decent insurance vs these fair decks in case of emergencies where JTMS wasnt enough for me to turn the corner. You're right that EtA has been very mediocre vs combo decks but I tend to put the onus on my Snapcasters in this case.

[jdmdave]

Went 4-1 in the league with the 4 cb no vclique list. I think we have something here guys.

What are your MTGO testing names?

[Nestalim]

We need to start sharing decklist.

Portending the Miracle

1 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterbalance
2 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Terminus
SB: 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 2 Wear / Tear
SB: 1 From the Ashes
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return

I am currently on this. Went 4-0 like as said against Shardless bug, Grixis Delver, Goblins and Rug delver.

I went pretty lucky against goblins as he had a shitty hand game one and didn't mull in vial on game 2. For the others, the deck simply runs smoothly.

Portent into Terminus is extremly regular. I simply played more than 10 games against RUG delver and lost only 2 times. I even managed to deal with goose four times in a single game.

I played yesterday versus Esper Stoneblade and Grixis Delver. Stoneblade feels the same way, the deck can't reach Jace. I managed to deal with Nahiri, Litomancer's ultimate thanks to Entreat the Angels.

I do believe that the deck is weaker, but now it is on the same level at the rest of the format. It is way weaker against Combo and the sideboard should be nearly entirely dedicated to it, but we still prey on creature deck.

There is a to say, to test, about the number and the win condition, but we shouldn't stop playing it. Jace, Bs, Snap and Stp are still powerhouse and be able to setup Terminus is smooth.

[Minniehajj]

We need to start sharing decklist.

Portending the Miracle

1 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterbalance
2 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Terminus
SB: 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 2 Wear / Tear
SB: 1 From the Ashes
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Kozilek's Return

I am currently on this. Went 4-0 like as said against Shardless bug, Grixis Delver, Goblins and Rug delver.

I went pretty lucky against goblins as he had a shitty hand game one and didn't mull in vial on game 2. For the others, the deck simply runs smoothly.

Portent into Terminus is extremly regular. I simply played more than 10 games against RUG delver and lost only 2 times. I even managed to deal with goose four times in a single game.

I played yesterday versus Esper Stoneblade and Grixis Delver. Stoneblade feels the same way, the deck can't reach Jace. I managed to deal with Nahiri, Litomancer's ultimate thanks to Entreat the Angels.

I do believe that the deck is weaker, but now it is on the same level at the rest of the format. It is way weaker against Combo and the sideboard should be nearly entirely dedicated to it, but we still prey on creature deck.

There is a to say, to test, about the number and the win condition, but we shouldn't stop playing it. Jace, Bs, Snap and Stp are still powerhouse and be able to setup Terminus is smooth.

I played a similar variant for a little while last night:
// 60 Maindeck
// 1 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives

// 4 Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage

// 2 Enchantment
2 Counterbalance

// 17 Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares

// 20 Land
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

// 3 Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 13 Sorcery
1 Council's Judgment
4 Ponder
3 Terminus
3 Portent
2 Entreat the Angels


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Monastery Mentor

// 10 Instant
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 3 Flusterstorm

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Mountain

Based on the version that Thomas and Johannes played on Eternal Weekend. I definitely feel as if there is something there, but it just isn't nearly as consistent. I think if you play Terminus and have the Snap/BS/JTMS engine, 4 terminus is likely necessary, even as clunky as it might be.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Here's mine:

4 scalding tarn
4 flooded strand
1 arid mesa
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
2 plains
4 island

4 snapcaster mage

2 jace, the mind-sculptor
1 entreat the angels
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 portent
4 predict
1 spell snare
1 spell pierce
2 counterspell
4 force of will
1 council's judgment
1 engineered explosives
3 terminus

Sideboard

3 flusterstorm
2 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 surgical extraction
1 pyroclasm
1 kozilek's return
1 disenchant
1 from the ashes
2 vendilion clique
1 mountain

I am not sure about how I feel about the 4th Terminus. Right now the ratios feel perfect and in the match ups where I want more sweepers I feel as though bringing in Pyroclasm effects is adaquate.

Right now Vendilion Clique is what I have at the moment as an attempt to speed up post board games if I might be behind on the clock.

Has anybody here tested Gideon of the Trials yet? That is a card that might end up finding its way into the maindeck for me.

[RankaLee]

Has anyone thought of going back to RIP Helm Combo with energy field with most of the control package ?

[jdmdave]

This is my decklist

* 10 fetch
* 3 Tundra
* 2 Volc
* 2 plains
* 3 Island
* 4 Bstorm
* 4 Portent
* 4 Ponder
* 3 Cbalance
* 1 Vclique
* 4 Snap
* 3 Jace
* 2 Counterspell
* 2 Spell Pierce
* 4 Fow
* 4 STP
* 4 Terminus
* 1 Judgment

Sideboard

* 3 Pyroblast
* 1 Containment Priest
* 2 Surgical
* 2 Ethersworn
* 2 Disenchant
* 2 Blood Moon
* 1 Vclique
* 1 Flusterstorm (budget issues)
* 1 K-return

[gh0st_b1rd]

So I'm going to try a couple maindeck Burning Wishes. From the main I cut

-1 Council's Judgment
-1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Entreat the Angels

+1 Mountain
+2 Burning Wish

And my SB is now

1 From the Ashes
1 Council's Judgment
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Pyroblast
3 Flusterstorm

[JackaBo]

I'm considering jumping on the miracle train. I've been intrigued by the deck before being one of the hardest deck to master. Now it's even more intriguing as it's lost some of it's power. My base line is 4 counterspell, 4 portent, 4 SCM, 4 predict, 2 ETA, 2 Jace under the assumption that counterbalance is not good enough anymore. The list feels a bit too cantrip heavy. Do you think it's ok to cut a porten and maybe a predict for two more action spells? I'm thinking councils judgement for all the bullshit out there and a third jace or maindeck blood moon.
I'd like some feedback from you who have been testing ETA builds.

[Julian23]

This thread has been moved to the New and Developmental Decks forum, following the DtB section update that Dice_Box will perform later today. We internally discussed what to do with the Miracles thread but decided against archiving it since you guys seem to still be very actively working on the deck, and we don't want to stand in the way of that. In general, I would still be happy if eventually one of you created a new thread for this new Miracles deck, as the current opening post is now even more out of date than it already was before the ban of Sensei's Diving Top.

I'm pinning this thread to the top of the New and Developmental Decks forum for a couple of days.

[twndomn]

I'm considering jumping on the miracle train. I've been intrigued by the deck before being one of the hardest deck to master. Now it's even more intriguing as it's lost some of it's power. My base line is 4 counterspell, 4 portent, 4 SCM, 4 predict, 2 ETA, 2 Jace under the assumption that counterbalance is not good enough anymore. The list feels a bit too cantrip heavy. Do you think it's ok to cut a porten and maybe a predict for two more action spells? I'm thinking councils judgement for all the bullshit out there and a third jace or maindeck blood moon.
I'd like some feedback from you who have been testing ETA builds.

First of all, you've missed the train. We're back at ground zero, and it doesn't appear the deck would be in DTB anytime soon, if ever.

Second, Miracles wasn't the hardest, it just shouldn't be the first Legacy deck if the player was new to the format.

As to card choices, I don't see the value in Predict, not before and certainly not now. You can only make a worthy Predict either after you have resolved a cantrip, or you have flipped for CB. For the first case, it's likely a sorcery speed Ponder/Portent, so you are sinking 3 Mana for CA. I would advise against it, especially when your opponent is likely to be a combo deck. For second case, it's now even harder to put back the Terminus/EtA you drew off Predict (without knowing) but could not trigger. If you run 4 BS and 4 Portent, that's 8 already. I would consider Ponder before I get to Predict.

As to the outlook of this deck, remember Lossett said that the most powerful card in the deck is Terminus. I personally believe it's both Terminus and SDT. Hence, that's enough to keep us developing. If possible, I would like to avoid the Miracles Blade approach, but that should be on the table.

[JackaBo]

First of all, you've missed the train. We're back at ground zero, and it doesn't appear the deck would be in DTB anytime soon, if ever.

Second, Miracles wasn't the hardest, it just shouldn't be the first Legacy deck if the player was new to the format.

As to card choices, I don't see the value in Predict, not before and certainly not now. You can only make a worthy Predict either after you have resolved a cantrip, or you have flipped for CB. For the first case, it's likely a sorcery speed Ponder/Portent, so you are sinking 3 Mana for CA. I would advise against it, especially when your opponent is likely to be a combo deck. For second case, it's now even harder to put back the Terminus/EtA you drew off Predict (without knowing) but could not trigger. If you run 4 BS and 4 Portent, that's 8 already. I would consider Ponder before I get to Predict.

As to the outlook of this deck, remember Lossett said that the most powerful card in the deck is Terminus. I personally believe it's both Terminus and SDT. Hence, that's enough to keep us developing. If possible, I would like to avoid the Miracles Blade approach, but that should be on the table.

I meant the development train obviously!
I mean to run 4 ponder, just thought that brainstorm, ponder, swords and terminus was a given 4-off. But of course, since deck is in flux i can see why that wasn't obvious. I'm totally in on not running stoneforge mystic.

[Richard Arschmann]

Tried testing various lists all weekend.

JDMdave's list feels like it's a lot harder to play than Predict Miracles was. You have to anticipate how a situation will unfold in advance and have the right card on top of your library to Counterbalance it or use one of your precious Brainstorms, whereas with Top you could just rearrange to 0, 1, or 2 at will. I feel that Entreat is completely dead and Terminus requires setup and is highly vulnerable to people not overextending. This is also a very slow deck: even slower than previous iterations of Miracles.

I am having a lot more success in UWR control by implementing a second card advantage engine: either Punishing Fire or Engineered Explosives/Academy Ruins. MTGO player ItIsUnfair has been using Punishing Fire to great success in UR/x Thing in the Ice decks, but I do not feel Thing is a very good card, so I put it in here. I'll post a list if it continues to do well in testing.

[Minniehajj]

Tossing this together because some stuff has impressed me:

// 60 Maindeck
// 1 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives

// 4 Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage

// 15 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell

// 22 Land
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Island

// 6 Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Gideon of the Trials

// 12 Sorcery
4 Ponder
3 Portent
4 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment


// 15 Sideboard
// 6 Creature
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms

// 8 Instant
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Wear // Tear

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Pyroclasm

one of the cliques or the pyroclasm might want to become a staticaster
Options: Mentor/Clique/SFM+Bskull over the gideons

[phg22]

So I've been high on Gideon in legacy but I want to know what made you go for 4 StP, 4 Terminus, AND 3 Gideon

[jdmdave]

So if I read this correctly, our general plan is to gain vast virtual CA by Terminusing their board then setting up neo platinum angel to blank everything?

As for my list being hard to play, I 100% agree - the deck is extremely reliant upon metaknowledge.

[lordofthepit]

Technically, this deck should never have been a Source DTB since we never had a primer.

[Dice_Box]

Technically, this deck should never have been a Source DTB since we never had a primer.
One of the early ideas was to give each of the DTB's its own subform in the DTB section. There is actually 4 of these sub forums hidden from view in there, one for Countertop with a Primer. It would not have been hard to move that across if it was really required, even though it is out of date as fuck now.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Burning Wish was a success in testing! It ended up being a much better win condition/answer than I had expected. Somebody in the last page said they were wary of Entreat as a win condition which kinda had me thinking of alternative win conditions and Burning Wish pretty much fit that bill. The cards I ended up grabbing most often was Supreme Verdict, From the Ashes and By Force. Just having that extra answer just makes having an actual kill condition academic.

There were games where I grabbed Entreat the Angels with Burning Wish while I was still ahead. Post-board I am probably boarding the EtA in anyway, so it will remain for the time being.

[Richard Arschmann]

Can you actually grab that ETA and play it? It seems incredibly slow.

I was trying to do the same thing with Personal Tutor (since it puts it on top, you get the miracle trigger) and I was just losing huge card advantage with Terminus since my opponents could just crap out a steady stream of threats one at a time and I would run out of cards before they ran out of Gurmags. Burning Wish does not cause card disadvantage, so you may have something. It is also dirt cheap due to the reprint.

[Scott]

"I'm not dead yet. I'm getting better. I don't want to go on the cart."

5-0 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-17) on MTGO today:

// Planeswalker (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Creature (6)
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

// Sorcery (8)
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
3 Terminus

// Instant (22)
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Unexpectedly Absent

// Enchantment (1)
1 Blood Moon

// Land (20)
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Terminus
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

[Nestalim]

"I'm not dead yet. I'm getting better. I don't want to go on the cart."

5-0 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-17) on MTGO today:

// Planeswalker (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Creature (6)
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

// Sorcery (8)
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
3 Terminus

// Instant (22)
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Unexpectedly Absent

// Enchantment (1)
1 Blood Moon

// Land (20)
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Terminus
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

I totally love that list. A report is coming ?

[Richard Arschmann]

Congrats to osmanozguney for getting the first 5-0 with Miracles since the SDT ban. The list is a Predict build with no Counterbalance and a maindeck Blood Moon. It utilizes the basic Mountain in the board and 3 Terminus + 1 ETA. It looks like he's actually using Predict in tandem with Unexpectedly Absent as a kill spell that generates card advantage, which is really awesome.

[Minniehajj]

"i'm not dead yet. I'm getting better. I don't want to go on the cart."

5-0 (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2017-05-17) on mtgo today:

// planeswalker (3)
3 jace, the mind sculptor

// creature (6)
4 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique

// sorcery (8)
1 entreat the angels
4 ponder
3 terminus

// instant (22)
4 brainstorm
4 counterspell
4 force of will
4 predict
4 swords to plowshares
2 unexpectedly absent

// enchantment (1)
1 blood moon

// land (20)
2 arid mesa
4 flooded strand
4 island
2 plains
4 scalding tarn
2 tundra
2 volcanic island

// sideboard
sb: 1 blood moon
sb: 1 terminus
sb: 2 engineered explosives
sb: 3 flusterstorm
sb: 1 hydroblast
sb: 1 mountain
sb: 3 pyroblast
sb: 3 surgical extraction

he liiiiiivvvveeessssss

[Scott]

he liiiiiivvvveeessssss


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuoKNZjr8_U

[LOLWut]

Been a while since I've seen Counterspells maxed out.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Can you actually grab that ETA and play it? It seems incredibly slow.

I was trying to do the same thing with Personal Tutor (since it puts it on top, you get the miracle trigger) and I was just losing huge card advantage with Terminus since my opponents could just crap out a steady stream of threats one at a time and I would run out of cards before they ran out of Gurmags. Burning Wish does not cause card disadvantage, so you may have something. It is also dirt cheap due to the reprint.

Vs decks with Gurmag Angler I tend to grab From the Ashes. I have only ever grabbed Entreat the Angels vs DnT which is maybe the deck that doesn't stop me from Brainstorm chaining my EtA on top and casting it for my Miracle cost. I have grabbed EtA while I was completely dominating a Blue match up I was playing against but any win condition would have been adaquate by that point.

But yeah, the fact that Burning Wish was a $1 a piece is what motivated me to try it out. That and Anzi104's old stream which looked bad at the time because the deck's primary concern at the time was slot but now we can't exactly worry about slots now that Top is gone.

[jdmdave]

Good job on the 5-0, but I still will withhold judgment until I start testing my list on MTGO in earnest. I DO like the heavy predict nature of the build, but I think I'd prefer more counterbalances in place of the counterspells. Idk, portent has been great for me.

[Scott]

Just to be clear, it wasn't my 5-0; I was just happy to see it :smile:

[WinterRat1]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has continued testing and contributing to this thread. I'm currently testing a bunch of different control variants but I've picked up some great ideas from all of you in here.

I'd like to test out the Portent Miracles, and the Unexpectedly Absent/Predict combo looks really interesting as well.

It's good to know people are still working on building a viable control deck in Legacy!

[gh0st_b1rd]

Unexpected Absence is a good catch. Besides just your opponent's shuffle effects and your Predicts, you could even use Portents as well.

[mistercakes]

Unexpected Absence is a good catch. Besides just your opponent's shuffle effects and your Predicts, you could even use Portents as well.

you can also +2 on jace, or wait until their draw step and clique it. (he also has surgical in the sb to shuffle)

[gh0st_b1rd]

I personally find it impressive that Miracles is probably the first deck to make Time Ebb playable.

[mistercakes]

<= legion land loss.

[Richard Arschmann]

Wonder how the 5-0 list would look if we swapped out Ponder for Portent? I think Ponder is generally better but the miracle trigger you get with Portent could occasionally be useful.

Looking at it, there are a lot of neat subtle lines of play.

-Jace +2 into Predict: if your opponent's top card of their library is good, bin it

-Unexpectedly Absent into Jace + 2: a Terminus for one permanent

-Unexpectedly Absent into Vendilion Clique: also a Terminus for one permanent but they get a card and you get a 3/1 flyer

-Unexpectedly Absent into Predict: a Maelstrom Pulse-like effect where you get two cards on top of killing a permanent (I love the flavor of this one, your opponent's guy just disappears without a trace and they find his body shortly afterwards)

-Unexpectedly Absent on your own Snapcaster to save him and recast him to get another flashback spell

If you have a cantrip or a Jace + 0, you can use Predict to set up miracle effects, as I'm sure most of you are aware. If you reveal 2 garbages + a miracle, you can set the miracle second from the top and Predict for it, naming the first garbage card. If you reveal a garbage and 2 miracles, you can put the two Miracles on top and then Predict during your opponent's turn naming a card they don't have and targeting them so you draw the miracle during their turn and then cast the second miracle during your own turn if you want.

[Minniehajj]

Wonder how the 5-0 list would look if we swapped out Ponder for Portent? I think Ponder is generally better but the miracle trigger you get with Portent could occasionally be useful.

Looking at it, there are a lot of neat subtle lines of play.

-Jace +2 into Predict: if your opponent's top card of their library is good, bin it

-Unexpectedly Absent into Jace + 2: a Terminus for one permanent

-Unexpectedly Absent into Vendilion Clique: also a Terminus for one permanent but they get a card and you get a 3/1 flyer

-Unexpectedly Absent into Predict: a Maelstrom Pulse-like effect where you get two cards on top of killing a permanent (I love the flavor of this one, your opponent's guy just disappears without a trace and they find his body shortly afterwards)

-Unexpectedly Absent on your own Snapcaster to save him and recast him to get another flashback spell

If you have a cantrip or a Jace + 0, you can use Predict to set up miracle effects, as I'm sure most of you are aware. If you reveal 2 garbages + a miracle, you can set the miracle second from the top and Predict for it, naming the first garbage card. If you reveal a garbage and 2 miracles, you can put the two Miracles on top and then Predict during your opponent's turn naming a card they don't have and targeting them so you draw the miracle during their turn and then cast the second miracle during your own turn if you want.

Why not...just play both?

[itrytostorm]

Wonder how the 5-0 list would look if we swapped out Ponder for Portent? I think Ponder is generally better but the miracle trigger you get with Portent could occasionally be useful.


I was thinking the same thing. Portent is better for miracles, Ponder is better if looking for lands.

[jdmdave]

I think a reasonable swap would be to cutdown to 3ish predicts, 2 counterspells, 1 Vclique, 0 entrea and add 4 portents + 1 Terminus.

[Whitefaces]

I'm having so much fun with Unexpectedly Absent and Predict.

You're insane if you cut any Ponders.

[twndomn]

I'm having so much fun with Unexpectedly Absent and Predict.

You're insane if you cut any Ponders.

Fun does not equate to competitive; I can describe anything as cute or fun. This is essentially 2-card to generate small CA while dealing with a permanent. If you only have UA, the best you can do is to catch your opponent off-guard when he breaks a fetch.

I have no preference on the UA+Predict package, as we should innovate, but why does this package have to be in Miracles Control? Could I not run this package in a non-Miracles Stoneblade/TNN shell? As in, why in this thread? Why not create a separate deck/thread that would center around this package? I would imagine something fair in Esper would be great, why is this a good fit?

[Minniehajj]

Fun does not equate to competitive; I can describe anything as cute or fun. This is essentially 2-card to generate small CA while dealing with a permanent. If you only have UA, the best you can do is to catch your opponent off-guard when he breaks a fetch.

I have no preference on the UA+Predict package, as we should innovate, but why does this package have to be in Miracles Control? Could I not run this package in a non-Miracles Stoneblade/TNN shell? As in, why in this thread? Why not create a separate deck/thread that would center around this package? I would imagine something fair in Esper would be great, why is this a good fit?

What you're describing is a package, and idea, but not a deck around it. It's here in this thread because Whitefaces is still playing it in the Terminus shell since the whole package is able to manipulate the top card of the library. We're not trying to cheese with time walking the opponent over and over again, he's playing it in a competitive shell because Terminus is still totally sustainable and still powerful.

[jdmdave]

How is the 3 CB + 4 Portent build working for everyone? I've been doing very well in my limited testing. Again, fuck the CFA exam.

[twndomn]

How is the 3 CB + 4 Portent build working for everyone? I've been doing very well in my limited testing. Again, fuck the CFA exam.

I'm running the 3 CB + 4 BS + 4 Portent + 3 Ponder. Sometimes it's annoying to look for a land via Portent, found it, but missing the land drop because you cannot draw the land that turn. The synergy of Portent + Terminus is golden. One game I found Terminus in the last possible turn via Portent, getting rid of TNN. That's about as good as it could get in the post SDT world.

Very tempted to run 10 Blue cantrips + 1 more land. The tempo delver decks with Stifle can be rough with the typical 20 lands.

I'm re-considering soothsaying as an option on the table, so many directions.

[It Is Unfair]

You are all playing way way to few cantrips.

The reason miracles was so good was because it was very consistent. If you count top as a cantrip most lists had 12-16 cantrips. Now most of you seem to think you can do the same with only 8-10 while replacing the other cards with unless stuff. You can try that for a while but you will never find it as consistent, the stuff you get to play in the extra slots might look good though. Trying to go down on cantrips when you don't have top is insanity, you should go the other way and add more. We all know that the deck can sink a mana or two into cantriping almost every turn and be fine, otherwise we wouldn't have been able to use top before the ban.

[gh0st_b1rd]

Top was pretty insane that it turned every fetchland into a cantrip. With that in mind having the full 12x 1cmc cantrips seems to be most logical concession to make. Besides if our deck just wants to play key spells and Snap them back over and over again (Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorm, Predict, etc) I could never view running more cantrips as wrong.

[Drzed]

Hi guys, long time lurker and first poster here.
I tried the UA+predict engine tonight (2-4 each) with 3 terminus and I find it to be really good for CA and to set instant speed terminus. Things i've noticed 1) u don't really need to always cast instant speed terminus as the card is plenty good when u cast it in your draw step and 2) UA is not the portent enabler as some people think, it is simply another permanent removal that goes well with predict. Bs+predict, ponder+predict, jace+predict (I played 3 jaces) is the real CA engine and incidentally it also help casting terminus at instant speed.
Portent is pretty bad as it doesn't help with land drop and I think is too much of an issue for it to be playable. As other used said I will play the full 4 ponder and 4 brainstorm and even some preordains (or portent if someone think it is really worth) it). I tried 4 snap 2 clique 3 jace as my wincons and I swapped the cliques with 2 mentor as they don't die to reb effects and because we can't counterlock the opponent and we need to close the game fast. We play a lot of "air" so mentor is still good. 3-4 counterspell and even some fluster storm maindeck are pretty much mandatory right now.

Sorry for the wall text and hoping to help in the conversation :tongue: