Miracle Control

[Hanni]

Table of Contents

Introduction
History
The Evolution of Counterbalance Landstill
The Fall of the Legacy Legal Ancestral Recall
The New Manabase
A Little Gem
The Removal Spell to End All Removal Spells
The New Age of Control
Deck Overview
Why Should I Play This Deck?
Card Choices
Color Splashes
Possible Inclusions and Cards that I’ve Dismissed
Matchup Analysis and Sideboarding Strategies
Tournament Results
Conclusion

Introduction

I’m the type of deck designer that tries to often think outside of the box, adding innovation that can range from complex ideas to sometimes the simplest things that you’d be surprised you never thought of.

I’d like to thank all of those who have assisted in my development of this deck. There are a large number of you, so I apologize for not name dropping anyone. If anyone feels as though they’ve contributed to this deck in some way, you can send me a PM and I’ll put your name in this section.

History

Back in 2007, before the distinction between different blue-green based aggro/control decks, when everything was still called "Threshold (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?3985)," the combination of Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance had become widely popular, and for good reason.

I’ve always enjoyed playing blue-based control decks, and back in 2008 when I started designing this deck, Landstill (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?9280) (discussion starts on page 32) was the premier control deck of the format. Most lists at that time, mine included, were running Sensei’s Divining Top. I believed then and still believe now that Sensei’s Divining Top was and is the best card in the deck.

Mob mentality sometimes has a way of not accepting great ideas because they seem ridiculous at the time. While working on designing and innovating my Landstill deck, I had one of those great yet ridiculous ideas: I’m already running 4 Sensei’s Divining Top and I’m playing a blue-based control deck… so why am I not playing Counterbalance?

In all honesty, I see absolutely no reason to not run Counterbalance in a blue-based control deck. Counterbalance is, without a doubt, the best control spell in the entire format. The first spell it counters is parity, putting it at the same level as a Counterspell, and every spell countered after that makes it a Forbid without the clunky 1UU casting cost and the horrible card disadvantage. It also has the unique ability of keeping recurring cards, like Life from the Loam, off the table. Even more important, Counterbalance can and will generate card advantage over the course of the game. Counterbalance significantly improves multiple bad matchups and good matchups, with very little downside in the matchups that it does not significantly improve.

The Evolution of Counterbalance Landstill

Of course, at that time, many people had either attempted to just plug Counterbalance into their existing Landstill decks with little success, or had simply disregarded it as a card not meant for Landstill. I’ve seen all the various arguments before; Landstill already has a great lategame and doesn’t need it like Threshold does, Landstill doesn’t have the proper curve for it, so on and so forth.

As I slowly designed and innovated the deck, it became further and further distanced from being a Landstill deck, until I eventually posted the original U/W/x CounterTop Walker (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17904-U-W-x-CounterTop-Walker) thread.

Originally, I tried to incorporate the CounterTop engine with the Standstill + Mishra's Factory engine. Over time, the deck had to evolve away from the Standstill + Factory engine. That engine is so bad by today’s standards, when many decks are running their own manlands, Wasteland’s, and especially AEther Vial. Even a deck without those spells, like Zoo (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12624) can invalidate Standstill by dropping threats on the board before Standstill comes down.

Control decks thrive on gaining card advantage, and it’s the reason why they have a superior lategame and ultimately win. What many players fail to realize is that not only is drawing cards not necessary to gain card advantage, it’s also fundamentally the worst way to gain card advantage because cards in hand do not directly alter board position. Counterbalance in and of itself is a card advantage engine, but rather than drawing cards from the top of the deck and putting them into your hand, you’re countering your opponent’s spells. This means that you are directly affecting the opponent’s board position while gaining card advantage.

Just to set things straight: both Counterbalance and Standstill are blue enchantments that cost two mana and require that the deck be built around them.

The Fall of the Legacy Legal Ancestral Recall

Of course, Standstill + Factory didn’t become bad overnight. New card sets and shifts in the metagame have slowly lead to its decline.

CounterTop is no worse than Standstill + Factory against Vial Aggro decks like , except Top is still an exceptional card in that matchup, and Counterbalance is still relevant when the opponent does not have a Vial in play.

When Standstill was in its prime, Decree of Justice was Landstill’s best win condition, which worked beautiful under a Standstill. With the printing of Planeswalkers, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, and more recently Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Decree of Justice is no longer at the power level necessary for the format.

Elspeth and Jace are the best win conditions that traditional U/W Control decks have had, since… well, ever. At 4 mana each, both are significantly less mana intensive than any previous win condition that I can think of, and both have a commanding presence once they resolve. If not dealt with in a very short manner, they will eventually dominate the board and seal the game.

The problem with these new Planeswalkers is that they cannot be cast under a Standstill, significantly weakening the synergy that it had in Landstill. CounterTop, on the other hand, does not have these problems.

The New Manabase

After removing the Standstill + Factory engine, the deck began to fall into place. With the freedom to build solely around Counterbalance, I was able to evolve the deck even further.

Probably the most important benefit to cutting the manlands was the increased strength of the decks manabase. A strong manabase is the single most important aspect for any control deck. When you want to be tying mana up spinning Top or casting 4cc Planeswalkers, you want to make consistent land drops throughout the entire early game and majority of the midgame. Not only is the total number of lands relevant, but so are obtaining the proper color sources. Being unable to cast spells because you were flooded with colorless mana sources was an issue I constantly ran into when I played Landstill. Countertop Superfriends doesn’t have that issue. This deck has one of the most stable manabases I’ve ever played with.

A Little Gem

After cutting Standstill, I found myself wanting a replacement. I needed another blue spell to pitch to Force of Will, and I also needed it to be 2cc for Counterbalance. After weighing all of the possible options I had available, I remembered a little gem called Predict. Mystical Tutor was seeing heavy use at the time in both ANT (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8158[/url) and Reanimator (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8639), and Predict was not only a virtual draw 3, but it was an amazing disruption card as well. Of course, Mystical Tutor has since been banned, but I still find use for Predict as disruption against Enlightened Tutor-based decks.

Even without its disruptive feature, Predict is still a still a very elegant card. A draw 2 for 2 is as good as it gets in Legacy without jumping through hoops with Standstill or Ancestral Vision. Obviously, Predict is not a straight up and down draw 2, and still requires hoops of its own to be enabled. However, the shell of my deck without Predict is about as perfect as it gets to accommodate it, making it such a lucky find for me. Between Brainstorm, Top, blind Counterbalance reveals, Jace, and possible help from the opponent with their own Counterbalance or E Tutors, there’s more than enough ways to enable the draw 2. Once I get a Top online, Predict is enabled for the rest of the game.

Predict goes beyond just gaining +1 card advantage; there’s always going to be a dead spell or two when spinning Top or casting Brainstorm. Predict lets me put the dead card in the graveyard and draw a fresh 2, which is essentially a draw virtual draw 3. Now the next time I spin my Top, I get to see a fresh 3. Top + Predict is a very powerful draw engine in the mid-late game.

The Removal Spell to End All Removal Spells

Without a doubt, the most widely discussed topic in the Landstill thread has been about the removal package. Almost everyone agrees on 4 Swords to Plowshares, but that’s where the agreement ends. There’s a long list of removal spells that have been tried in various control shells, from Engineered Explosives to Humility.

I was originally using [/cards]Wrath of God[/cards] myself, as my board sweeper and card advantage bomb. However, a big expensive sweeper like that no longer works well enough in Legacy. At 4 mana, it’s simply too slow; you’re likely dead before it resolves, if it ever does in the face of cards like Daze, Spell Pierce, and Wasteland. If you use spot removal to survive long enough to cast Wrath of God, it’s rarely better than a 2-for-1. Even as a 3-for-1, it’s still only a 1-shot effect for 4 mana.

By the suggestion of a Sourcer named Doks (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17904-U-W-x-CounterTop-Walker&p=465125&viewfull=1#post465125), I decided to try Vedalken Shackles instead. At first I tried it as a singleton, and then moved to two copies, and more recently I’ve moved it up to 3 copies.

Vedalken Shackles is what I always wanted Wrath of God to be; mass removal that generates card advantage. The difference here is that Shackles continuously does this throughout the game. It becomes even stronger in multiples, its lower casting cost is extremely relevant in modern Legacy, and being a 3 drop increases my density in that cc range for Counterbalance. For this deck, when it comes to handling aggro, there is literally nothing better than Vedalken Shackles.

The New Age of Control

Without further ado, I give you my current decklist (as of 4/11/11):

[U]U/W Countertop Superfriends

Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven

Creatures (0)

Spells (38)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard (15)
2 Aura of Silence
2 Moat
4 Peacekeeper
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle

Deck Overview

The basic concept of this deck is the same as other control decks: control the board until you hit the mid-late game and then ride a win condition to victory. This deck has an adequate number of ways of surviving to the midgame, and then dominating the mid-late game.

This deck thrives itself on card advantage; not just by drawing more cards than the opponent, but by gaining card advantage multiple different ways. This deck utilizes a lot of permanent-based control elements, giving it recurring sources of countermagic, removal, card quality, etc.

The curve of this deck is significantly lower than older control decks like Landstill, and is right about on par with newer control decks like CounterTop/Supreme Blue (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13716).

Lastly, this deck runs 0 creatures, rendering the opponents removal useless in most cases. However, stolen creatures with Shackles and tokens made by Elspeth, still give the opponent’s removal some targets.

Why Should I Play This Deck?

Different players have different preferences when it comes to play style. Some like to senselessly beat with aggro like Wild Nacatl, some like to set up a complicated series of play to resolve a lethal Tendrils of Agony. Others like to tell their opponents “NO!” For those that like to be in control, then this is the deck for you.

Of course, there are a lot of other control decks out there, and so maybe the question is, “why play this control deck over those other control decks?” My answer to that is the sheer power level and synergy that this deck has.

This deck doesn’t sacrifice card advantage to set up vulnerable two-card combos like Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek, and breaks the old traditional control shell of playing “fair” 1–shot effects like Wrath of God the entire game. This deck literally has an answer to everything between its 75. This deck is capable of preventing the opponent from doing absolutely anything from beginning to end, and often does so in dominating fashion. This deck has game against everything in the format; no matchup is an auto loss in a standard best 2 out of 3 game set. I’m not claiming that the deck does not have bad matchups, because it does. But every deck has bad matchups, and the bad matchups for this deck are not utterly hopeless. This deck is not a glass cannon and it’s very consistent.

This deck is also prime for the current metagame, despite the common misbelief that control is bad in diverse formats.

Card Choices

The deck has constantly gone through changes, and I’ve play tested with a lot of various card choices and at varying amounts. Over the course of several years of development, I’ve been able to fine tune the cards and numbers. However, as with all control decks, many players have special card preferences that they either like to play with, or work better for their particular metagame. I’ll list own my card choices first, and then I’ll list possible color splash options and possible card inclusions.

Counterbalance Curve and Blue Spell Count for Force of Will

Throughout extensive testing with this deck, my personal guidelines for the Counterbalance curve has been a minimum of 10 1cc spells, 10 2cc spells, and 3 3cc spells. My personal guidelines for the minimum blue spell count for Force of Will has been 18 blue spells. Note that these are guideline minimums and I always strive to increase those numbers. My current decklist that I posted above has 14 1cc spells, 11 2cc spells, 5 3cc spells, 4 4cc spells, and 4 5cc spells with 21 blue spells to pitch to Force of Will… which is right on the money.

Land

I ran 23 lands, successfully, for a very long time. Since then, the mana costs of the deck have continued to go down considerably. In more recent months, I started to find myself needing less and less land during the mid and late game, but found myself drawing excess land fairly often. The deck definitely wants to hit consistent land drops early, and having extra mana sources available in the mid game is great too. However, the deck also wants to draw business. Finding the right proportion of lands to spells is like a fine art. So I went down to 22 lands, and it feels right.

8 fetchlands are necessary for proper Brainstorm/Top shuffling. Islands are the most important mana source in the deck because the deck wants to hit UU by as early as turn 2, and wants as many Islands as possible for Vedalken Shackles.

The lone Kor Haven is great. It’s the only colorless land in the deck, which is very rarely an issue. It taps for mana to spin Top or cast any of the spells in my deck that have colorless costs, and its ability to prevent combat damage is a very nice addition to my removal package.

Win Conditions

Jace is now widely accepted by the community, but I remember a time when it was not (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15872). However, I still see a lot of people discredit Elspeth. Elspeth is amazing in a number of situations where Jace is not, including Elspeth being the amazing Jace-slayer in the mirror. Elspeth fairs better in the face of aggro, and can be a faster clock on an empty board. Both Jace and Elspeth have their strengths and weaknesses, and both deserve to be in the deck. Additionally, the ability to have both Jace and Elspeth in play at the same time is undeniably strong; hence why they are Superfriends. Superfriends-mode almost always draws a concession. I’ve tested various splits, and I’ve come to find the 2/2 split to be just right. I don’t want my hand getting clogged early, and 4 are enough for me to find one when I need one.

Vedalken Shackles can also serve as a win condition, although much less frequently as the Planeswalker’s.

Draw Package

Although my draw package isn’t drawing me a mass of cards with Fact or Fiction or Standstill, the deck really doesn’t need the mass card draw because of all of the other cards in my deck that generate card advantage. Rather than drawing a mass of cards, the draw engine is designed to increase my card quality. Making sure I draw what I need when I need it is often more invaluable than drawing multiple cards. Of course, I still have Predict, which is a blend of card advantage and card quality. In combination with Top, Predict becomes a savage draw engine for this deck. I’ve tested running 2, 3, and 4 copies of Predict at various times, and 3 feels like the right amount. I don’t want to get clogged with them early on, but they are rarely ever a dead draw by the midgame.

Counter Package

Force of Will should not need an explanation, and I feel as though I’ve already thoroughly explained Counterbalance. 4 Counterbalance feels like the correct amount, although I’ve seen players do just fine with 3. Personally, I’d never go below 4 in this deck, because it’s so strong in so many matchups.

As far as Counterspell is concerned, I’ve played with 2, 3, and 4 copies at various times. The amount of Counterspells is preferential; I prefer having 4 copies, but it’s not mandatory.

Removal Package

The 2 Path to Exile are something that I feel is necessary in today’s fast paced aggro metagame. Simply put, there are too many fast and efficient creatures that need to be dealt with these days that 4 Swords to Plowshares alone cannot handle. The deck needs to be able to survive to the midgame, where it can cast bombs like Vedalken Shackles, and the extra Path’s help with that. Giving the opponent a basic land is well worth removing a creature from the game for 1 white mana. However, these can easily be other removal spells if splashing a third color.

Oblivion Ring is my Swiss army knife at handling any problematic permanent that slipped past my counter wall. It’s also capable of answering Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, which is something that Vindicate cannot. Being 3cc is also a big reason for its inclusion, since 3cc is becoming increasingly more important to be able to counter with Counterbalance. 2 O Rings have been enough for me in the maindeck, although that number isn’t set in stone. Like Counterspell, the amount is preferential, and with splash colors, there are other options available.

Vedalken Shackles I’ve already explained in detail. 4 would be too many and clog too many early hands, but the deck absolutely wants more than 2, which leaves me at 3. Against Vial Aggro, and most other aggro, the deck absolutely wants to see at least 1 Shackles, with multiples being welcome.

Sideboard

As a disclaimer: Sideboards are never set in stone, including mine. The point of a sideboard is to address matchups that one will expect to face in his/her metagame. When I design sideboards, I design them with large scale tournaments in mind.

The Aura of Silence are there as additional answers to artifacts/enchantments, coming in against decks like MUD (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19932), Enchantress (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5302), and Affinity (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12604).

The Moat’s are specifically for the Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931) matchup, although they have applications elsewhere. The ability to answer Progenitus is noteworthy.

The Peacekeeper’s come in against Merfolk primarly, since a resolved Peacekeeper is almost always gg. However, they are also great to bring in against removal-light aggro decks, like Bant ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059) variations that run 4 StP as their only removal, Affinity, Elves ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17168), and other various aggro decks. I’ve been finding these to be extremely important lately, and I think I’ll be keeping 4 in my sideboard for a very long time.

The Meddling Mages come in against a ton of different matchups. I will detail this more in the matchup analysis and sideboarding strategy section.

Pithing Needles come in to answer randomness, and are especially good against control mirrors; shutting down EE, Factory, Thopter Foundry, opposing Planeswalker’s, or Top’s when the situation calls for it, etc. It’s a nice answer to AEther Vial, Academy Ruins, Qasali Pridemage, and the list goes on.

Color Splashes

Splashing into a 3rd color is perfectly viable, since this deck has a more than stable enough manabase to accommodate a light 3rd color splash. There are advantages to each color: black, red, and green. I’m content with straight U/W right now, but I know many who prefer a splash.

Black is my favorite 3rd color splash. For the large majority of time developing this deck, I splashed black for maindeck Vindicates instead of O Rings. There are many advantages to running Vindicate over O Ring, but there are several advantages to O Ring as well.

Here’s a brief list of some of the valuable cards, for both the maindeck and sideboard, available to each color splash. If you feel that I’m missing something important, please feel free to PM me and I will add it to the list:

Black

Vindicate
Duress
Engineered Plague
Extirpate
Perish
Innocent Blood
Deathmark
Diabolic Edict

Red

Firespout
Grim Lavamancer
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast

Green

Krosan Grip
Life from the Loam
Tarmogoyf
Knight of the Reliquary
Thrun, the Last Troll

Possible Inclusions and Cards that I’ve Dismissed

I’ve tested a lot of things out. Some things simply work better than others and/or have better synergy with the rest of the deck. The biggest design constraints this deck has had is maintaining the blue spell count for Force of Will and maintaining a good curve for Counterbalance. Most of my deckbuilding decisions are heavily influenced by the Counterbalance curve. When attempting to dismantle this deck and make tweaks to it based on personal preferences of card choices, paying attention to the cc curves of the deck is crucial.

Since there are so many cards to list, I’m going to start with what I think are the most heavily discussed ones for now, and add more to this list per request.


Engineered Explosives
Spell Snare
Humility
Moat
Thopter Foundry
Enlightened Tutor
Cunning Wish

Engineered Explosives is a Swiss army knife. It answers a ton of random stuff, and it has the unique ability to destroy multiple permanents at once. Most control players will not play without them. I do not underestimate their power. I do not include them because they are 0cc, which does not improve the decks Counterbalance curve, and it threatens to destroy my own Counterbalances, Vedalken Shackles, etc. I’d rather not have to choose between destroying my own permanents or my opponent’s. Oblivion Ring satisfies the Swiss army knife role for me and allows me stay in 2 colors. Others have used EE to great effect in this deck, so it’s not something that I’m saying should never be used, but it’s something that I will never use. Players who choose to run EE usually include Academy Ruins, too.

Spell Snare is a spell that I feel is simply not needed. It’s very limited in scope, and although there a lot of juicy targets for it, there are a lot of problematic stuff that it just cannot answer, unlike Counterspell. I never feel like my deck is not fast enough to keep up that I need a 1cc spell to counter 2cc spells. The main reason why I do not run it, though, is because of my Counterbalance curve. I already run a lot of 1cc spells, and the only way to fit the Spell Snares would be to cut from my 2cc and 3cc spells. I feel comfortable surviving the early game against most decks, and both Counterbalance and Counterspell are better past the early game.

Humility is great in some matchups, and lousy in others. At 4cc, it’s extremely expensive, and doesn’t actually remove creatures; a few 1/1’s can still go the distance and kill me. Great card, but I just don’t feel like it’s necessary in this deck. Without Mishra’s Factory, it offers much less for this deck than it does for Landstill. However, it has the potential to be a great sideboard card for certain matchups.

Moat is similar to Humility, in that it is great in some matchups, and lousy in others. It’s also sitting at 4cc, which again is extremely expensive, and it’s also vulnerable to Qasali Pridemage and other creature-based artifact/enchantment removal. However, against certain matchups, it’s absolutely bonkers, and for that reason I actually do sideboard 2 copies.

Thopter Foundry is a combo piece, which is a mostly dead spell on its own, and requires another dead-on-its-own spell to function. There’s no denying the power of the combo, but the Planeswalker win conditions are extremely powerful on their own, and can seal the game up just fine. The combo itself is card disadvantage, needing 2 cards to be a win condition vs 1, not including any card disadvantage tutoring to assemble it. This deck is not CounterTop Thopter (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16836), and there is already a thread for that deck. For those who want to play this combo, I’d suggest continuing that discussion in that thread.

Enlightened Tutor is a fantastic way to tutor up silver bullets, but it’s essentially a card quality enabler at the cost of card disadvantage. My deck is not lacking in card quality, and is designed around gaining card advantage. E Tutor is card disadvantage. I realize the argument is that E Tutor can grab a card that would create virtual card advantage, like Moat or Counterbalance, but this deck can find the cards it needs without E Tutor. E Tutor works well with Counterbalance, but if you want to play with E Tutor, I’d recommend going on over to the CounterTop Thopter thread.

Cunning Wish is a great card because it gives the deck added versatility in the maindeck. It essentially fills a similar role to O Ring, by being a Swiss army knife. It’s also 3cc, and happens to be blue for Force of Will. I have considered it in the O Ring spots before, and it’s definitely something that some may prefer to play. I personally don’t like how slow it is, costing 3 mana just to find the card I want, and then however much more mana necessary to cast that spell. I also don’t like how it butchers my sideboard, requiring that I cut valuable cards for 1-of’s to satisfy the Wish. However, it’s a great card that may find its way into some builds.

Matchup Analysis and Sideboarding Strategies

Despite popular belief, this deck is really good against randomness and jank due to its large amount of versatile answers. Counterspell and O Ring, for example, answer a wide variety of things. CounterTop is still really good at answering the format, too. Vedlaken Shackles is universally good against aggro decks, and this deck has answers to literally everything between maindeck and sideboard.

Since there are so many decks in the Established forum and in Legacy in general, I’m going to only include the DTB for now. I realize that the DTB section hasn’t been updated in a while, and isn’t an actual representation of the current DTB, but that’s okay.

If anyone would like to see a specific matchup addressed, please let me know and I’ll include it. If anyone has anything they’d like to contribute to this, please let me know.

Merfolk ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8158)

Merfolk used to be my worst matchup; early versions of this deck were not capable of consistently beating Merfolk. Any Vial-based aggro deck is going to be a tough matchup, at least preboard. However, I’ve spent a lot of time improving my Merfolk matchup.

Merfolk is designed to prey on weak manabases, and decks with expensive spells; not only with Wasteland, but with all of the taxing countermagic like Daze and Spell Pierce. My manabase is extremely stable in the face of Wasteland, and my increase in 1cc spot removal greatly helps survive the early game. I’m no longer running clunky sorceries like Wrath of God that cannot resolve before I’m dead because of a mere Cursecatcher. Both O Ring and Shackles dodge that little fishy too, and Shackles is my MVP in this matchup. A single Shackles can literally be the difference between a win and a loss, and I cannot remember the last time I’ve lost against Merfolk when I’ve had more than one Shackles in play.

This matchup is significantly more difficult if the opponent resolves a turn 1 Vial. Not only does Vial weaken my countermagic, but it also speeds the Merfolk player up dramatically.

Sideboard Plan:
-4 Counterbalance
-2 Oblivion Ring
+4 Peacekeeper
+2 Pithing Needle

Counterbalance is effective against Merfolk when Vial isn’t in play, but it is the weakest card in the maindeck. Arguably Counterspell is weaker, but the 2cc curve drops too low postboard to support Counterbalance.

Peacekeeper is the stone cold nuts against Merfolk, and oftentimes earns a concession once resolved. Most lists aren’t prepared for it, and between 4 Peacekeeper and 3 Shackles, I have tons of answers to the little fishies. Needle comes in to shut off Vial, as well as Mutavault. Needle on Mutavault not only neuters 4 of their “creatures,” but it also weakens Standstill.

Goblins (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931)

Goblins is a tough matchup. Vial is problematic, and they are capable of gaining large amounts of card advantage over the course of the game with Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader. They run a much larger threat density than Merfolk, which means they are better at overwhelming me.

There are many different versions of Goblins. The two most common versions are Mono Red and R/b. These are the two easier versions to play against. R/g, on the other hand, is the worst of the versions to play against.

The matchup is significantly more difficult if they resolve a turn 1 Vial. Vedalken Shackles is the MVP in this matchup. Elspeth is also an MVP in this matchup.

The sideboard plan is heavily dependent upon the version of Goblins I’m playing against.

Sample Sideboard Plan:
-4 Counterbalance
+2 Moat
+2 Pithing Needle

Counterbalance is the worst card in the maindeck against Goblins, so removing it is the logical choice. Against most Goblins builds, Moat has the ability to lock the game down, with most Goblin lists relying on Siege-Gang Commander to win, which is an easy threat to answer when it’s their only out. Pithing Needle has a number of juicy targets; particularly Vial, but also Rishadan Port, SGC, and more.

Against R/g Goblins, the sideboard plan varies. Dropping Counterspells for Meddling Mage is a good idea, since Mage can pre-emptively name Krosan Grip, or whatever problem card I don’t want to see. Meddling Mage is also a body that can chump block, which can be helpful. Peacekeeper is also a possible option, depending on how much removal they board out, and what removal they are running. Pithing Needle naming Gempalm Incinerator can help make Peacekeeper effective, too.

Zoo ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12624)

Just like everything else, there are different versions of Zoo. Fast Zoo is much more difficult than Big Zoo, but both matchups are good matchups.

It is important to neutralize the opponent’s early creature threats with StP/PtE, to minimize life loss. If the opponent isn’t capable of doing a lot of damage early, their chances for winning diminishes greatly. CounterTop is a powerhouse here, usually resulting in a hard lock once assembled. Shackles is amazing, and dropping a Planeswalker on a clean board is usually gg.

The maindeck is built very well for handling Zoo; I don’t sideboard for this matchup.

CounterTop ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13716)

CounterTop is a matchup that I’m comfortable seeing. Like everything else, the versions vary, from the more aggro dense versions to the ones with only Tarmogoyf (and Jace). Opposing CounterTop players have dead maindeck cards (removal), whereas I have a boatload of removal for their threats. We both have CounterTop, but I have superior card advantage engines in addition to that, which gives me a superior late game. Sideboarding for this matchup is highly dependant on the build; so much so that I cannot even list a sample sideboard. For the most part, the maindeck is pretty well built to handle CounterTop, so sideboarding is usually minimal anyway.

Bant Aggro and Pro Bant ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059)

This matchup is similar to CounterTop. The versions vary greatly; some run Jace and/or Elspeth, some run Natural Order, some run Vial, and the list goes on and on. Bant Aggro is significantly slower than a deck like Zoo, giving me plenty of time to get spells like Shackles, CounterTop, and Planeswalker’s online. I run a boatload of removal, and keeping up with their threats is fairly easy. Peacekeeper can come in to deal with Progenitus if they run it, and both Meddling Mage and Moat can be useful too. Just like CounterTop, the maindeck is pretty well built to handle this matchup, so sideboarding is usually minimal. Due to the large variance in lists, I’m also going to refrain from posting a sample sideboard.

New Horizons ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15244)

Well there sure is a lot of Bant in the DTB. Luckily for me, Bant is a great matchup. New Horizons is the easiest of the bunch. Wasteland is mostly irrelevant against me, and their taxing counters aren’t backed up by the same sort of pressure that Merfolk applies. In fact, New Horizons is very threat light, which makes this matchup ridiculously easy. No sideboarding is necessary.

Ichorid ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767)

Ichorid is very difficult matchup preboard. Keeping Breakthrough and other early enablers from resolving is crucial to survival. StP/PtE is really helpful here; exiling Ichorid’s goes a long way at slowing the opponent down from going broken with Bridge from Below tokens. Still, against amazing dredges, it’s nearly impossible to win.

Sideboard Plan:
-3 Predict
-2 Oblivion Ring
-3 Vedalken Shackles
+4 Peacekeeper
+4 Meddling Mage

Postboard, the matchup is a toss-up; if the opponent goes broken before I can drop a Peacekeeper, there’s nothing I can do. If I can drop a Peacekeeper, I stand a great chance of winning. Luckily, I have a number of ways of slowing the opponent down, preventing them from going broken.

The opponent does have outs to Peacekeeper, like some Dread Return targets, Firestorm, and Darkblast. However, with Meddling Mage, Counterbalance, Counterspell, and Force of Will, I have enough ways to keep those spells from resolving.

Moat is a notable mention, which could also be brought in; although I’m not sure what else I’d want to cut to fit it.

Overall, this is not a matchup I want to run into in a tournament.

TES ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15028)

Storm combo is another great matchup for this deck. Although my clock is slow, Storm combo has a very difficult time dealing with CounterTop. Combined with Force of Will and Counterspell, the opponent is very limited in what they can do. Against TES specifically, an early Empty the Warrens is their best bet, so long as they can do lethal before Shackles helps me stabilize.

Sideboard Plan:
-2 Path to Exile
-2 Oblivion Ring
-3 Vedalken Shackles
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Peackeeper

Against ANT, I wouldn’t bring in Peacekeeper, but against TES, Peacekeeper is much better against a swarm of EtW tokens than Shackles is. I leave my StP’s in just incase my opponent boards in Dark Confidant. Aura of Silence is a notable mention, since it makes generating mana from Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and Lion's Eye Diamond a pain in the ass for them.

Tournament Results

Since I have been unable to compete in Legacy events for quite a while (since 2006), this section will be for others who have put up the numbers with this deck. In the future, I’d like to be able to have some of my own results in this section. To anyone who has piloted this deck, please PM me a link to your tournament report or your decklist (whether it’s on Star City Games ( http://starcitygames.com/), etc). I will link it in this section and include your name, what place you finished in, and the amount of players at the tournament.

Denny Chan, 9th Place at SCG San Jose 1/16/2011 with UWr Countertop Superfriends
SCG Decklist (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36230)
Tournament Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Open-San-Jose)

Conclusion

For those of you who made it this far, I want to thank you for your time. I realize that this was a rather large primer. I wanted it to be as complete as possible. If anyone has anything they’d like to see added, or anything they’d like to contribute, please let me know. I hope you have enjoyed this primer; it took a lot of time to complete. I’ve had a lot of fun designing and playtesting with this deck over the years, and I hope that this primer will help those who are interested in my work.

Also, there are great reads about this deck in both the U/W/x Landstill (X) thread and the U/W/x CounterTop Walker (X) thread. I’d recommend taking a look at those before asking a lot of questions, since those questions are likely answered somewhere in those threads.

Enjoy.

[Hanni]

Reserved

I need to work on editing some of the links and tags, my apologies. If anyone notices any typos or other grammatical errors, please let me know.

[GGoober]

Very nice primer, and I was wondering why this hasn't been on Established already...

But one thing I disagree, I still draw 3 with my Standstills 80-90% of the time even against Gobs/Merfolks, it's just a matter on when do I draw3. I don't know about you, but playing a weaker Recall that pumps Goyfs +1/+1 but allows me to make land drops and develop under it even in a slightly unfavorable board position (e.g. Dryad Arbor beating me for 1 a turn or Welder swinging in for 1 a turn) still win me games. I feel that most Landstill decks are not optimally designed or they are played in wrong metagames that make the misconception that Standstill is no longer a good draw spell. In my opinion, that's an unfair and untrue statement.

There's one thing that a control deck definitely needs that isn't Counterbalance, it's really simply Sensei's Divining Top.

Will be looking forward to the completed primer when it's done.

EDIT: WTF Superfriends? I don't approve of the deck name :P

[Mana Drain]

This is a very nice primer, and very informative. Excellent job Hanni. I don't agree with a few of the card choices on principle alone (singleton Kor Haven, O-Ring), but I certainly don't have that much testing with the deck to back up my finickiness. This is probably the only heavy control deck in the format that can get away with just two colors.

I really think that 2-3 Spell Pierce need to be somewhere in the 75. Team America and Tempo Thresh are the bane of controls existence, and barring a really early CB/Top or a really disruption-light hand from TA/TT, I feel you'll have a hard time against them, especially post-board when they bring in CB/Blue-hate against you.

Again, great primer.

[Hanni]

But one thing I disagree, I still draw 3 with my Standstills 80-90% of the time even against Gobs/Merfolks, it's just a matter on when do I draw3. I don't know about you, but playing a weaker Recall that pumps Goyfs +1/+1 but allows me to make land drops and develop under it even in a slightly unfavorable board position (e.g. Dryad Arbor beating me for 1 a turn or Welder swinging in for 1 a turn) still win me games. I feel that most Landstill decks are not optimally designed or they are played in wrong metagames that make the misconception that Standstill is no longer a good draw spell. In my opinion, that's an unfair and untrue statement.

My intention wasn't to offend those players who still play Landstill or use Standstill in their control decks. Much of this is personal opinion based off my own personal experience.


There's one thing that a control deck definitely needs that isn't Counterbalance, it's really simply Sensei's Divining Top.


Top is the best card in the entire deck. But what justification could there possibly be to play a blue-based control deck with Top but without Counterbalance?


Will be looking forward to the completed primer when it's done.

The primer is done, minus the editing I need to do to the links and any grammatical errors. There are some sections that I will add to later, per request (like the matchup analysis section), but I have nothing to add to that right now.


This is a very nice primer, and very informative. Excellent job Hanni. I don't agree with a few of the card choices on principle alone (singleton Kor Haven, O-Ring), but I certainly don't have that much testing with the deck to back up my finickiness. This is probably the only heavy control deck in the format that can get away with just two colors.

Well, neither Kor Haven nor O Ring are essential for the deck to function properly, but there's little downside to running Kor Haven, and the deck functions much better with a Swiss army knife like O Ring. There's alot of problematic noncreature permanents out there that O Ring can remove if they slip through the counter wall.


I really think that 2-3 Spell Pierce need to be somewhere in the 75. Team America and Tempo Thresh are the bane of controls existence, and barring a really early CB/Top or a really disruption-light hand from TA/TT, I feel you'll have a hard time against them, especially post-board when they bring in CB/Blue-hate against you.


Honestly, Team America and Tempo Thresh are good matchups for me, and I'd classify them in the same group as New Horizons. Nimble Mongoose out of Tempo Thresh can be difficult to answer because of the Shroud, for the lists that still run him. However, Elspeth can answer Mongoose maindeck, and both Moat and Peacekeeper can answer him postboard.

There are several reasons why I find those matchups to be pretty good. Those decks primarily focus on attacking the manabase, which is a rather weak plan against me. They are also very threat light, and I have plenty of removal for them. If Tempo Thresh with Mongoose were to get more popular, I could always cut the Aura of Silence in my sideboard for Engineered Explosives.

Counterbalance hate isn't that big a deal; they can go ahead and focus on trying to play around or removing Counterbalance, but that still leaves them vulnerable to Swords, Path, O Ring, and Shackles.

Even if those matchups were difficult, I'm not sure that Spell Pierce would be the best option. Their weakness is their threat-light creature base, and exploiting that seems like a much better plan than fighting back against their Daze's and whatnot.


Again, great primer.

Thanks.

[hyc8028]

It is about time this deck is in the established section. Great job on the primer, Hanni! I love the name of the deck too. I always call my walkers superfriends.

Here is my old list that took 9th place in SCG open: San Jose earier this year.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19732-9th-Place-with-UWR-Countertop-Walker-SCG-Open-San-Jose

I am going to try out your UW version when I have a chance. The mana base seem rock solid, but I might miss EE. EE + Ruins won me ton of games.

[Hanni]

Sweet, thanks for the link. I'm going to head to bed now, but I'll update the tournament results section tomorrow after work.

[serendib]

my compliments hanni.
despite I'm not a usually a counterbalance lover, I really like your deck.
your sideboard is great.
If I'll test your deck, I probabely wouldn't change more than 1/2 cards in your list.
1X baneslayer angel instead of your III pithing needle
as far as aggro players often side out remouvlas spells and having something that gives you lifes is good.
have you thought about him ?

[C Rayz Walz]

I too am not a counter balance lover but I have to say that I think this deck is really good. I am testing with it playing a lot of games and overall I like it. I do have some cards that I don't really like though because of different play styles.

O ring- I understand why you run this card, but for me I never really want it. If I would remove this card what would you think would be a good choice to add over it.

Predict- I hate the fact that you need brainstorm or top to make this card good. I never want it in my opening hand as I feel it just clogs it up when I don't have a way to know the top card of my deck. If I were to remove this what would you suggest to swap it with.


Also, I have to say that the mvp of this deck is shackles(favorite card in magic as well). This card is just so insane and really helps protect jace which I think is huge. I am also thinking about maybe running 3 jace as well but unsure if that would be good or needed.

[.nemesis]

Just wanted to drop some props to Hanni. Great Primer!

For reference, as there's no list for it up to now, the UWb variant I've been playing for some time now:



//Land
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tolaria West
1 Kor Haven
1 Academy Ruins

//Walkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//Permission
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance

//Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict

//Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Vindicate
2 Vedalken Shackles

[Sigar]

It's pretty misleading calling this deck "Superfriends"..

[J.V.]

It's pretty misleading calling this deck "Superfriends"..

Jeeze, way to discriminate against Jace and Elspeth being "Super-friends".

[klaus]

Jeeze, way to discriminate against Jace and Elspeth being "Super-friends".

you guys have no sense of humor.
Super Friends.. I sure dig it.

[Lemnear]

A very nice primer but I don't think Shackles are still good. I played countertop for years and always had problems versus zoo and tribal running shackles due to the fact it's not faster than wrath and Mana denial hurts too of you need 3 islands to handle a nacatl which beats you for 9 until you can shackle him. I prefer V. Cliques in that slots to "Instant" kill nacatl or jaces AND rip their post-Combat-play or cycle multiple tops/cliques/etc. It perfectly fits in the 3cc slot and is also good vs. Combo unlike shackles.

[Wiseman4]

I agree with Lemnear about Clique. Also, I don't really see why Moat is sided and why 2. Why don't you main 1? Because Elspeth is in the main all of your creatures can fly over moat. Also, if you run clique, clique flies over it.

[Nidd]

It's pretty misleading calling this deck "Superfriends"..
Superfriends was the name of a T2 deck which utilized Planeswalkers as it's primary means of winning.

Care to elaborate how that's the wrong name for a deck like this?

Has anyone who runs a UWb list tested Esper Charm? I know it has a demanding cost, but it's chock-full of utility.

[.nemesis]

Has anyone who runs a UWb list tested Esper Charm? I know it has a demanding cost, but it's chock-full of utility.

I ran them in the sideboard for a while, but ultimately, they were only really good in the mirror and against Enchantress. I switched to more general hate cards now.

[Wiseman4]

The issue with esper charm i feel is that it really doesn't do anything other cards can't do better. blue has enough draw cards that also decide what you are drawing next, black has hymn, and besides enchantress, enchantment destruction isn't to most useful thing to have.

[Nidd]

The issue with esper charm i feel is that it really doesn't do anything other cards can't do better. blue has enough draw cards that also decide what you are drawing next, black has hymn, and besides enchantress, enchantment destruction isn't to most useful thing to have.
Of course it isn't better than Hymn, Fact or Demystify - however, it is a spell that can adapt to the current gamestate in a beautiful manner.
You need to find answers? Esper Charm draws you 2 cards.
You want to disrupt your opponent? Esper Charm makes him discard 2 cards.
You have to get rid of that pesky enchantment over there? Sure, let Esper Charm do the work.

I'd recommend testing it before jumping conclusions. Versatility certainly is a factor when making cardchoices.

[Tammit67]

Great primer for an interesting deck. Could you include a matchup analysis for Junk/rock decks?

[Wiseman4]

Of course it isn't better than Hymn, Fact or Demystify - however, it is a spell that can adapt to the current gamestate in a beautiful manner.
You need to find answers? Esper Charm draws you 2 cards.
You want to disrupt your opponent? Esper Charm makes him discard 2 cards.
You have to get rid of that pesky enchantment over there? Sure, let Esper Charm do the work.

I'd recommend testing it before jumping conclusions. Versatility certainly is a factor when making cardchoices.

Well then we go into the whole 3cc issue, while yes the 3cc helps with CB especially against Junk but wouldn't you rather spend that 3cc on something like Clique? Also, land disruption decks, good luck easily getting all 3 colors while getting everything else to go off. I just feel that it is an amazing card, but just misses the cut. That's my opinion though.

[Nidd]

Well then we go into the whole 3cc issue, while yes the 3cc helps with CB especially against Junk but wouldn't you rather spend that 3cc on something like Clique? Also, land disruption decks, good luck easily getting all 3 colors while getting everything else to go off. I just feel that it is an amazing card, but just misses the cut. That's my opinion though.
Even if you run 3 colors, you can still play 7 basics just fine, which is far from fragile.

I doubt it's a good idea to play Clique in this deck. Why, you might ask? Because Clique is a creature. This deck turns your opponents removal into dead cards and that's one of the strengths, I guess - not only do you generate CA with your PWs, CBTop and Shackles, you even turn your opponent's StP into blanks.

I suppose I just have to give Predict a spin.

[Beatusnox]

I'll post my current list when I get home from work tonight, did fairly well in an MWS based tournament with a loss only in the finals to Aeon Bridge of all decks funny enough =/ I just couldnt stop a turn 2 Emrakul

[Lemnear]

Even if you run 3 colors, you can still play 7 basics just fine, which is far from fragile.

I doubt it's a good idea to play Clique in this deck. Why, you might ask? Because Clique is a creature. This deck turns your opponents removal into dead cards and that's one of the strengths, I guess - not only do you generate CA with your PWs, CBTop and Shackles, you even turn your opponent's StP into blanks.

I suppose I just have to give Predict a spin.

Elspeth and Shackles rarely create CA. Moreover there a a lot of decks out there which turn YOUR Swords, Shacklettes, Elspeth, O.Ring into blanks!

The possibility that a opponent runs Swords against your countertop(!) is not a reason to dismiss the flex. of Clique especially if you realize that a resolved softlock is protection from 1cc-spells my fellow In-Nürnberg-Spieler.

[ivanpei]

I did some testing yesterday night with hanni's list and I can't stress the importance of basics enough. I feel that splashing is ok, but not very worth it compared to a solid Manabase. Here's what I run: 4 strand, 3 misty, 2 Heath, 3 tundra, 8 island, 2 plains. I run 10 basics and have very little mana problems. I don't like the 4th tundra because I don't want to have double tundra hands. Having 1 tundra is fine as I can drop basics/fetches turns 1-3 then the tundra as my 4th/5th land drop once I'm out of the woods.

Shackles is the best card in the deck. Every game I won was off the back of shackles. No shackles= gameloss against tribal. This deck still doesn't feel "broken" enough. But being able to be 50/50 against tribal is a very big achievement IMO for a countertop deck. Props to hanni on the list.

[The Treefolk Master]

Great primer for an interesting deck. Could you include a matchup analysis for Junk/rock decks?

I've played the UW version tons of times against Junk and I'm currently undefeated, it is a REALLY good match up. The only difference between me and Hanni is -2 O. Ring +2 EE, which does help in the match. Setting a 2 and a 3 drop on top for Counterbalance isn't difficult, and completely shuts them down. Just remember to float a 3 drops for possible K. Grips.

The only way they can kill you is a discard heavy opening, followed by a large dude + Vindicate to your Walker/shackles, but I've survived many of those hands as well.

Hope it helps!

[Wiseman4]

I think the only decks that survive the opening of massive hand removal then big creature is dredge and um, can't think of much that can survive it

[Tammit67]

I've played the UW version tons of times against Junk and I'm currently undefeated, it is a REALLY good match up. The only difference between me and Hanni is -2 O. Ring +2 EE, which does help in the match. Setting a 2 and a 3 drop on top for Counterbalance isn't difficult, and completely shuts them down. Just remember to float a 3 drops for possible K. Grips.

The only way they can kill you is a discard heavy opening, followed by a large dude + Vindicate to your Walker/shackles, but I've survived many of those hands as well.

Hope it helps!

I understand that CB @ 2,3 is good. I worry a bit about the few turns before that comes online, but most of all I think that match up should be included in the primer for today's metagame. The discard and Confidant seem to be the only real issue, but they are real issues for many CB decks.

Not to be rude, but I'd rather get a more definitive answer from the OP than annecdotal evidence from someone else. Not that I don't believe you or anything.

[Beatusnox]

Just saying, The list i Have is currently in a 'low' budget mode, I am getting my Underground seas and Shackles hopefully in a few weeks.


Instant: 15
Diabolic Edict x3
Force of Will x4
Counterspell x4
Swords to plowshares x4

There is no brainstorm at the moment because I lack Fetch Lands and predicts(LGS is out and I dont have a way to order online).

Sorcery:5
Wrath of God x2
Day of Judgment x1
Decree of Justice x2

I only have two Wrath and no shackles yet. I honestly, have tested it both ways, shackles helps me more against decks with smaller creatures, but sweepers I have found to help me more against bigger creatures, if I dont have an edict or Swords in hand. I am running two decree of Justice as an alternate win condition, it has helped me once as a win con, and give me an extra card at the 4 CMC slot, which I am lacking as I cannot afford to get Jaces in my current financial situation.

Enchantment:10
Counterbalance x4
Oblivion Ring x4
Standstill x2

Counterbalance is kind of Self explanatory. Oblivion ring is in here, because I cannot afford Vindicates around the rest of the cards that the deck requires, AND it hits Emrakul, which would make me want to run it more than Vindicate either way. I still Like Standstill in here, while there are only two of them here, I have gotten some game winning advantage off of it.

Artifacts:4
Sensei's Divining Top x4

The 'Top' Part of countertop.

Superfriends:4
Elspeth, Knight-Errant x2
Jace Beleren x2

Elspeth is ridiculously powerful in here, the extra damage that her second ability can provide or the blockers her first one can may swing games.
Jace Beleren in here, is more for the CMC 3 and the card draw I can get off of him. While not as powerful as his full grown self, the card draw he provides and the CMC of 3 for the top, is really helpful.

Lands: 22
Non-Basic:12
Mishra's Factory x4
Celestial Collonade x2
Watery Grave x2
Creeping Tar-Pit x2
Tundra x2

The Colonades, I want to make a one of and use Hallowed Founts, but I havent been able to find any of the founts locally, nor more Tundra.
The Graves will be Seas as soon as I can get them. Tar-Pits are an alternate win condition, and can be pretty ridiculous with Elspeth.

Basic Land: 10
Swamp x2
Island x4
Plains x4


Tournament experience.

I can only remember a few of the rounds as it was a long day for me =/

Played against a Blue Stompy deck. This is where Elspeth saved me, We got to the point where I wasnt getting any removal and we were racing for the win, he was swinging 5 each turn, I went from 11, to 6 to 1, and he was at 4 life, I topdecked an Elspeth, and Boosted a single Decree token for a game win. The next game, I was able to counter most of the spells he played, and when he did land a creature, I would Edicts or Swords, I o-ring'd his Chalice and managed to out aggro him.

Another round was against a U/R Merfolk deck. Not much to say really, Kept vial off the board and killed the lords =/


Aeon Bridge.

Game one, he used the Bridge to get Emrakul out, going off on his second turn through Lotus Petals. Game Two, He show and tells for an Emrakul. I drop an O-Ring, Judge gets called, its a small tournament, its ruled that O-Ring does hit Emrakul. I am unsure if it works off of Show and tell, I was told it does, can anyone here clarify? Game Three, He does his bridge thing again, when I try to Force the Dreadnought he has a force to stop mine and I lose the game.

[Beatusnox]

~

[Tammit67]

Aeon Bridge.

Game one, he used the Bridge to get Emrakul out, going off on his second turn through Lotus Petals. Game Two, He show and tells for an Emrakul. I drop an O-Ring, Judge gets called, its a small tournament, its ruled that O-Ring does hit Emrakul. I am unsure if it works off of Show and tell, I was told it does, can anyone here clarify? Game Three, He does his bridge thing again, when I try to Force the Dreadnought he has a force to stop mine and I lose the game.

Oring is put into play, the ability is put on the stack the next time a player receives priority, at which time you choose targets. You can target emrakul if you want.

[.nemesis]

Not to be rude, but I'd rather get a more definitive answer from the OP than annecdotal evidence from someone else. Not that I don't believe you or anything.

I generally agree on Treefolk Masters experience with the Junk/Rock/GWBGoodstuff matchup. Discard is the main issue here, but if you can get down a top, the damage done with Hymns and whatnot is minimized by a lot. If you can survive that onslaught, which you mostly will, them dropping medium-sized Tarmogoyfs and KotR just can't keep up with us dropping gamebreaking bombs like Jace, Elspeth or Shackles.

Not meaning to sound elitist or something, but when playing against those decks, I'm not really impressed by anything they throw at me.

[Jackehehe]

Hello guys!

I ABSOLUTELY love this deck. I've been a dreadstill player for about a year or so now and I've always been a fan of CounterTop. After playing this deck, I havent looked back to anything. I run an identical list as Hanni with the exception of moats. Moats are so redicilously expensive (I do plan on getting them though, eventually) and next weekened there is a qualifcation for swedish legacy masters. I was planning to be there and I think I have fairly good chances of qualifying but I could really use some advice as what to play instead of moats.

I guess it makes my goblin match up a bit harder which obviously is a problem. I'm thinking that playing peacekeeper instead could be an option, as long as you use pithing needle/meddling mages on siege-gang, wierding, gempalm etc

[Beatusnox]

Hello guys!

I ABSOLUTELY love this deck. I've been a dreadstill player for about a year or so now and I've always been a fan of CounterTop. After playing this deck, I havent looked back to anything. I run an identical list as Hanni with the exception of moats. Moats are so redicilously expensive (I do plan on getting them though, eventually) and next weekened there is a qualifcation for swedish legacy masters. I was planning to be there and I think I have fairly good chances of qualifying but I could really use some advice as what to play instead of moats.

I guess it makes my goblin match up a bit harder which obviously is a problem. I'm thinking that playing peacekeeper instead could be an option, as long as you use pithing needle/meddling mages on siege-gang, wierding, gempalm etc


Vedalken Shackles are very much needed in that mach-up. Most of their goblins when not attacking will have be controlled through the shackle.

You could also consider running some kind of board sweepers. One or two Wrath of God could be what you need, though even still, if you can keep Aether Vial off the table, having an active counterbalance at CMC 1-2 can just about shut them down. at least in my experience. It depends on where you play as to if Goblins will be a big issue for you. The meta could prove to not really have any of them or very few of them to play against. For U/W Superfriends, I Do not know the List on the main page atm(will check in a sec) but you could definitely always bring in path to exile for spot removal if you are really getting drowned in the Goblins.

Also, thank you for answering the O-Ring question, that is how I thought it worked, but I wanted to be sure.

[Beatusnox]

~ Is the software causing anyone else to double post like crazy lately?

[Wiseman4]

I don't agree on Shackles, I have found it very slow. I'd rather play green for goyf because goblins really can't deal with a tarmogoyf. Between goyf and all the removal goblins shouldn't be the hardest match up.

[Hanni]

Wow... so much to address here. First of all, I'd like to say that I edited the links in the primer. The links look much cleaner now. I also added hyc8028's tournament results in the Tournament Results section.

Anyway, onto the responses:


It's pretty misleading calling this deck "Superfriends"..

How so?


A very nice primer but I don't think Shackles are still good. I played countertop for years and always had problems versus zoo and tribal running shackles due to the fact it's not faster than wrath and Mana denial hurts too of you need 3 islands to handle a nacatl which beats you for 9 until you can shackle him. I prefer V. Cliques in that slots to "Instant" kill nacatl or jaces AND rip their post-Combat-play or cycle multiple tops/cliques/etc. It perfectly fits in the 3cc slot and is also good vs. Combo unlike shackles.

Why did you have problems with Shackles against Zoo and tribal? Were you running a really bad manabase, with alot of nonbasics or a low Island count? If you're implying that surviving until you have 3 lands in play doesn't happen, then you either played a really bad control deck, or you did something wrong.

Once Shackles comes down, it has the ability to shut aggro down cold. If they don't overcommit, they can't put any damage through, and if they do overcommit, I gain lots of card advantage.

Shackles is also much easier to resolve than Wrath, since it only costs 3 mana. It might not do anything immediately without an additional 2 mana investment, but it's going to sit on the board for the rest of the game until dealt with. Wrath costs 4, 2WW to be exact, which is rather slow when the opponent can easily drop a threat the turn after.

As far as Wild Nacatl goes, of course a turn 1 Nacatl is gonna swing faster than a Shackles can come down. He's gonna swing faster than a Wrath can come down too. That's what Swords, Path, and Force are for.

Vendilion Clique as an answer to Wild Nacatl is so horribly bad. It still costs the same 3 mana as Shackles does, except it can be Bolt'd or Path'd... and if you're putting a a Path back to bottom with Clique, you're playing this deck seriously wrong. At best, you're trading Clique with Nacatl... so you spent 3 mana to answer their 1 mana guy. Seems pretty bad to me, and I'd rather just run more Oblivion Rings since they can hit Tarmogoyf.

There's no doubting Clique in the combo matchup, but that's not a matchup this deck has a problem with. Clique is still relatively slow against combo too, since it costs 3. Meddling Mage out of the board is more than sufficient for combo. Shackles may be bad vs combo (depending on the combo deck), but control decks should have cards that are bad against combo, because they are necessary for handling aggro. There's no good answer to aggro that's also good against combo that I know of besides Counterbalance.


I agree with Lemnear about Clique. Also, I don't really see why Moat is sided and why 2. Why don't you main 1? Because Elspeth is in the main all of your creatures can fly over moat. Also, if you run clique, clique flies over it.

I don't run Moat maindeck because its too expensive for an effect that can be hit or miss in some matchups. Moat totally skews my Counterbalance curve, making me heavy in 4 drops, and it makes my deck more mana hungry if I overload a bunch of top heavy spells. It's the same reason I run a 2/2 split of my Planeswalker's instead of a 3/3 split.

Also, I do run Moat... in my sideboard. I run Moat in the sideboard because it's great against Goblins, and a few other matchups.


Has anyone who runs a UWb list tested Esper Charm? I know it has a demanding cost, but it's chock-full of utility.

I've tried Esper Charm before, and it was ultimately not worth it. The utility is absolutely amazing, but a 3cc draw 2 is awful, and the color requirements make it just as difficult to cast as Predict (as a draw 2), if not harder. Also, replacing Predict with it drops my 2cc curve down too low; having 3cc spells for Counterbalance is great, but there are far more spells played at the 2cc range than 3cc, so having a larger 2cc density is vital for successfully playing with Counterbalance.


Elspeth and Shackles rarely create CA. Moreover there a a lot of decks out there which turn YOUR Swords, Shacklettes, Elspeth, O.Ring into blanks!

This is completely false. Shackles most definitely creates card advantage. If they aren't overcommitting because it's on the board, it's virtual card advantage, and if they are overcommitting to push damage through, then it's actual card advantage. Either way, over the course of the game against aggro, Shackles nets a large amount of card advantage. It becomes even more apparent when you have more than 1 Shackles in play.

Elspeth can create card advantage too. Chump blocking with 1/1's isn't, but trading with 1/1 Goblins is, or having enough 1/1's to trade with a Kird Ape is. Against the control mirror, if my opponent is digging for removal spells to stop the bleeding from a 4/4 flier, Elspeth is again creating card advantage. Elspeth doesn't necessarily need to create card advantage though; that's not why she's in here.


Shackles is the best card in the deck. Every game I won was off the back of shackles. No shackles= gameloss against tribal. This deck still doesn't feel "broken" enough. But being able to be 50/50 against tribal is a very big achievement IMO for a countertop deck.

What tribal matchup? And are you talking strictly about preboard games, or both preboard and postboard? After I bring in 4 Peacekeeper against Merfolk, that matchup is alot better than 50/50.


I understand that CB @ 2,3 is good. I worry a bit about the few turns before that comes online, but most of all I think that match up should be included in the primer for today's metagame. The discard and Confidant seem to be the only real issue, but they are real issues for many CB decks.

Not to be rude, but I'd rather get a more definitive answer from the OP than annecdotal evidence from someone else. Not that I don't believe you or anything.

The Junk matchup varies slightly since the lists vary. The Junk decks with light threat density's are usually pretty good. Even if they hit me with a Thoughtseize and a Hymn, I still run enough draw and removal to hit another removal spell to answer their fatty. Elspeth and Jace are fantastic in the matchup too, and their manabase attack is much less effective against me than a deck like Landstill. If I keep the board clear long enough to drop a CounterTop lock, it's usually gg from there, even if they eventually are able to destroy it with Vindicate; I've gained massive card advantage in the meantime, and it becomes extremely difficult for them to come back from that.


I was planning to be there and I think I have fairly good chances of qualifying but I could really use some advice as what to play instead of moats.


Run either Wrath of God, or Humility.

Wrath of God is good against them because Shackles prevents them from being aggressive when they attack and forces them to overcommit. If you then Wrath them before they can alpha strike, it's probably gg from there. Without a Shackles, WoG can still help slow their development down while you establish control over the gamestate.

Humility shuts off their ability to gain card advantage with Matron and Ringleader, which is important over the long haul. They still can swing with a bunch of 1/1's, but a bunch of overcosted vanilla 1/1's is alot easier to deal with, especially with a Shackles on the board. Humility + Shackles is usually gg.


I don't agree on Shackles, I have found it very slow. I'd rather play green for goyf because goblins really can't deal with a tarmogoyf. Between goyf and all the removal goblins shouldn't be the hardest match up.

That's arguable. Tarmogoyf is a great wall against Goblins, and it is way more mana efficient than Shackles, but it's alot easier for them to deal with. Blocking a single Goblin a turn isn't bad, but Shackles has the ability to steal a 2/2 to trade with a 2/2, untap it next turn to steal a 1/1 to trade with a 1/1, etc. At that rate, Shackles is killing 2 Goblins a turn, whereas Tarmogoyf would only be killing 1 Goblin a turn.

However, Goyf and Clique aren't bad cards. I mean, Supreme Blue is another CounterTop Control deck; it's very similar to this deck. That deck has put up impressive results in the past, and going that route is definitely not a bad one. However, I like the gameplan that this deck has, and so I prefer to run my Planeswalker's and Shackles instead of Goyf and Clique.

[Hanni]

Sorry for the double post, but the other post was too long to make a seperate unrelated edit.

Anyway, I didn't touch on this too much in the primer, and maybe I should add it, but...

This deck is almost like a Stax deck. The cards should not be evaluated by themselves. Each card gets stronger as other elements enter into the equation. CounterTop on its own, or Shackles on its own, are incredibly strong. However, when you combine the two, they become that much stronger; now you're opponent is having difficulty resolving spells, and when they do get a creature to stick, it gets stolen by Shackles. CounterTop will then keep additional guys off the board, making it extremely difficult for the opponent to apply pressure.

Another example would be Shackles and Elspeth against Goblins. Shackles by itself won't stop a Goblins player from either pushing damage through at the cost of card disadvantage, or dropping guys without swinging while waiting for an alpha strike. Combined with an Elspeth making a swarm of 1/1's tokens that will eventually become indestructible, it becomes difficult for the Goblins player to amass enough Goblins to alpha strike or to push enough damage through. Time is ticking, because once that Elspeth hits ultimate, swarms of indestructible 1/1 tokens + Shackles will make it impossible to break through. And if another Shackles comes down during that time? You get my point.

Between the Planeswalker's, Shackles, and CounterTop, the deck amasses permanent-based control solutions that stick around and continue to add value. When combined together, they become exponentially stronger. As more and more accumulate into play, the lock becomes stronger and stronger until the gamestate reaches the point where either the opponent concedes, or they simply have no way of coming back and the game eventually ends shortly thereafter. When this deck wins, it typically does so in dominating fashion. For me personally, I love that feeling.

The Superfriends name for this deck is such a good way to describe the deck. Jace by himself is strong, but Jace beside Elspeth is stronger. Superfriends doesn't just apply to Jace and Elspeth, but also Counterbalance and Shackles. Even my card quality enabler, Top, sticks around turn after turn making sure I'm drawing the best of the best, and obviously gets alot stronger beside Counterbalance.

EDIT: Even the sideboard is attempting to do the same thing. Aura of Silence, Moat, Peacekeeper, Meddling Mage, and Pithing Needle's are all permanents that come down, remain in play, and act as a lock piece. Of course, Needle only locks down [up to] 4 of a specific cards activated abilities (Factory can still tap for mana), and Meddling can only lock down [up to] 4 of a specific card, but they still lock those cards down. Meddling Mage on its lonesome won't stop combo, but when the combination of CounterTop and Meddling Mage come together, for example... you get my drift. Aura of Silence can soft lock artifacts/enchantments from getting into play, at least slowing them down enough that I can deal with them with Counterspell, Oblivion Ring, or even the Aura itself. Moat locks down all non-fliers from attacking, and Peacekeeper locks down all creatures from attacking.

I hope this deck gets the much needed attention it deserves. The metagame is ready for a strong control deck to re-enter the format, and I believe this deck is more than capable of being the formats premier control deck like Landstill was a few years ago.

[Wiseman4]

Ok well in terms of speed we can agree it is slower than Firespout and the same speed of Wrath. Another issue is that if you are facing any GW deck, it is basically useless. Pridemage kills it every time. With that in mind, the card really only excels against tribal. So if you aren't facing a tribal heavy format. It is definitely the first card you would switch around.

[Hanni]

Ok well in terms of speed we can agree it is slower than Firespout and the same speed of Wrath. Another issue is that if you are facing any GW deck, it is basically useless. Pridemage kills it every time. With that in mind, the card really only excels against tribal. So if you aren't facing a tribal heavy format. It is definitely the first card you would switch around.

It's slower than Firespout against small aggro, sure. Firespout is useless at stopping those Goyf's and Knight's that are turning sideways, though.

Arguably, Shackles can be faster than Wrath if the deck can't hit 2WW by turn 4, whether that's because of the deck itself or because of the opponent (Stifle/Waste, etc). However, I'll concede that both spells don't have an effect until turn 4 at the earliest.

How is Shackles useless against any GW deck? If the opponent just so happens to have Qasali before I get any use out of Shackles, it's still trading 1-for-1 with a Qasali Pridemage, so it's costing the same amount of mana as Oblivion Ring to remove that Qasali. That's worst case scenario. Even still, that's 1 less Qasali for my Counterbalance or next Shackles. If I manage to either keep Qasali off the table, Swords the Qasali before they have the mana to activate, or they simply don't see Qasali while it's relevant, Shackles is absolutely amazing against GW. The presence of Qasali is absolutely no reason to not run Shackles, period.

That's almost like saying that running Counterbalance is bad because Qasali can hit it, minus the fact that CounterTop can usually protect itself by preventing Qasali from coming into play, but that's not always the case (they either have one out prior to, or I happen to not have a 2cc card on top, or they have a GSZ to sneak it into play).

Shackles excels against all aggro, with the exception of super huge fatties like Emrakul and untargetable creatures like Nimble Mongoose. It truly accels against tribal, which happens to be fantastic since that matchup has historically been the worst matchup for control decks (at least in this format) since Vial Goblins circa 2004-ish.

With or without Shackles, this deck pounds the shit out of G/W decks. Have you done any gauntlet playtesting with this deck to back up why Shackles should really not be included? Or are you basing your opinion of Shackles with experiences from other decks? Shackles shores up a huge hole that this deck has (Vial Aggro). Matchups like G/W were (and still are) highly favorable, so cutting Shackles because it's not as good against G/W as it is against Vial Aggro is nonsense.

Trust me, when I praise a card highly, it's not because it's a pet card of mine. This isn't a deck I tossed together a week ago, this deck has been a slow and constant deckbuilding project of mine for the last few years. The decklist that you see in the primer is the evolution of years of fine tuning.

Now I'm not trying to stifle innovation in any way, shape, or form. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, and I'm not out to criticize or offend anyone either. But if you're going to make an argument against a major pillar of this deck, you'll need more than just a few corner case scenarios where that pillar is not as good as something else.

I've taken into account all of the major archteype designs of the format with this deck, and I've played against literally everything. If something is less spectacular in one matchup (like Counterbalance vs Vial Aggro), it's because it's an all-star in other matchups. Everything is blended together in a way that gives the deck adequate answers to nearly everything; Shackles vs Vial Aggro, CounteTop vs Combo, etc.

If you happen to find a really bad matchup where there are several cards that are really bad against that matchup, that's the sort of thing I'd like to see discussed. Telling me that Shackles is bad because it's bad in one of my good matchups, when it's amazing in one of my otherwise bad matchups, isn't innovation.

I hope this post lays the anti-Shackles sentiments to rest. And no hard feelings please. Carry on.

[Beatusnox]

I've taken into account all of the major archteype designs of the format with this deck, and I've played against literally everything. If something is less spectacular in one matchup (like Counterbalance vs Vial Aggro), it's because it's an all-star in other matchups. Everything is blended together in a way that gives the deck adequate answers to nearly everything; Shackles vs Vial Aggro, CounteTop vs Combo, etc.

If you happen to find a really bad matchup where there are several cards that are really bad against that matchup, that's the sort of thing I'd like to see discussed. Telling me that Shackles is bad because it's bad in one of my good matchups, when it's amazing in one of my otherwise bad matchups, isn't innovation.

I hope this post lays the anti-Shackles sentiments to rest. And no hard feelings please. Carry on.

Can I ask for opinions on the list on the last page?

Also, I am noticing that more and more, I am able to stabilize at lower amounts of health than most of the other decks I have played with and against.

[Lemnear]

So ... Pridemage vs. Shackles isn't a topic but swords vs. Clique is one? Hanni you don't seem to have read that I've written about the CA of shackles and elspeth. So I explain.

In the actual metagame there are more decks out there that nearly ignore Shackles than are seriously harmed by it. Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Knight of the reliquary, swarm aggro, combo decks, Lands etc. laugh about Shackles. You are talking about how good it is to trade 1/1's and 2/2's but I have to ask where these decks are you seem to handle that style. I have none of those decks in my meta and stabilizing that way vs. swarm in almost bolt-range is pointless against such decks.

Elspeth blocking with a Couple of 1/1's isn't an argument, like "if this card is in play for 5 turns without penetration it get's really good" never is. She rarely turns the tide by chumpblocking a Single creature every turn. She's a evasive finisher especially Not being a creature but that's Not the topic.

Clique is a flexible play I suggested because you dedicate so much space vs aggro in your maindeck already I felt a card that stands between being an answer to Aggro and combo would be nice. I prefer the Aggro-control style of countertop because I don't feel the softlock is reliable enough today for hardcore control since deckbuilding shifted towards curvy builds like Big Zoo.

[thefreakaccident]

There's no good answer to aggro that's also good against combo that I know of besides Counterbalance.

Engineered explosives is actually great against sligh and zoo while also being terrific against token based combo decks, and can occasionally slap a bitch in the face for putting their 0cc artifacts on the board at the wrong time. Orim's chant is another one of those cards that can essentially counter 2-3 ritual effects and timewalk combo, as well as being able to completely lock agro out of the game with scepter preboard.

I've had really mixed results with shackles in the past, it can sometimes seem like the best card in the deck, and sometimes I find myself asking why i even have the card in my collection to begin with. Yes, the card can be amazing with a bunch of basic islands and a few spot removal spells to supplement it in the early game, but i really find it lackluster against all of the stifle/waste strategies running around in today's metagame like new horizons and team america (the card is still good against goblins and merfolk however).

[.nemesis]

In the actual metagame there are more decks out there that nearly ignore Shackles than are seriously harmed by it. Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Knight of the reliquary, swarm aggro, combo decks, Lands etc. laugh about Shackles.

You better tell that to all those guys whose faces I have been smashing with their own 5/5s, 4/5s, 7/7s, etc. Maybe that can undo the curbstomping that has been done to them.

Seriously, this deck has absolutely no problem stealing opposing 5/6 Goyfs with Shackles. Most funny thing about KotR is though, they basically have to use it for its land-searching each turn to keep it out of Shackles-range. A Crop Rotating KotR is not dealing any damage, so I'll be fine with that.

[Bignasty197]

Seriously, this deck has absolutely no problem stealing opposing 5/6 Goyfs with Shackles. Most funny thing about KotR is though, they basically have to use it for its land-searching each turn to keep it out of Shackles-range. A Crop Rotating KotR is not dealing any damage, so I'll be fine with that.

QFT. Also, while Knight of the Reliquary is dumping lands into the graveyard, we have very likely drawn 1 of the 6 Swords effects in the deck to deal with it anyway. I have been testing this deck for a few days now, and I have to say that Shackles is way too good not to run at least 2 main deck.

[Tammit67]

Seriously, this deck has absolutely no problem stealing opposing 5/6 Goyfs with Shackles. Most funny thing about KotR is though, they basically have to use it for its land-searching each turn to keep it out of Shackles-range. A Crop Rotating KotR is not dealing any damage, so I'll be fine with that.

If they are running a maze of ith main, then it could do both damage and crop rotate :)

[Hanni]

So ... Pridemage vs. Shackles isn't a topic but swords vs. Clique is one? Hanni you don't seem to have read that I've written about the CA of shackles and elspeth. So I explain.

Swords vs Clique isn't a topic either. You can in no way compare a 1cc spot removal spell to a 3cc creature with 1 toughness, regardless of his ability to put a card from their hand to the bottom or not.


In the actual metagame there are more decks out there that nearly ignore Shackles than are seriously harmed by it. Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Knight of the reliquary, swarm aggro, combo decks, Lands etc. laugh about Shackles. You are talking about how good it is to trade 1/1's and 2/2's but I have to ask where these decks are you seem to handle that style. I have none of those decks in my meta and stabilizing that way vs. swarm in almost bolt-range is pointless against such decks.

What are you even talking about? Until just recently (with everyone going nuts over Spiral Tide), aggro has been the most heavily played archetype in the format. Every aggro deck is seriously harmed by it.

How in the world can you say that Goyf, Knight, and Stalker aren't affected? By turn 4, the turn where I'd be stealing Goyf, I'm easily capable of having the 3-4 Islands in play that I need to steal him. Knight can potentially grow out of Shackles range, but not by early midgame (unless the opponent has cracked nothing but fetchlands). If a Knight outgrows a Shackles, I'll simply steal something else and use one of my 6 Plow-effects on the Knight. And Stalker is a 5/5 that requires several turns before he can come down... stealing a 5/5 by that time is not a difficult task.

What in the world do you mean that swarm aggro laughs at Shackles? I'm starting to assume at this point that you have absolutely no playtesting experience, or played an incredibly bad deck with Shackles, because you're nunna makin any sense.

Trading 1/1's and 2/2's comes from Goblins and Elves; trading 2/2's and 3/3's comes from Merfolk and White Vial Aggro.

And almost in bolt-range? You're being so short-sighted. You're making this out to be like Shackles is my only removal spell, and that I'm actually going to let me opponent swarm me uncontested and swing until I finally land a magical Shackles at 1 life. There's a reason I'm running 6 1cc removal spells, and despite what you may or may not think, between the removal and my countermagic, my deck does a great job of reducing the opponent's ability to apply pressure early. I'm rarely in bolt range before I can get a Shackles online against swarm aggro... and when is the last time that swarm aggro was running Bolt's anyway?


Elspeth blocking with a Couple of 1/1's isn't an argument, like "if this card is in play for 5 turns without penetration it get's really good" never is. She rarely turns the tide by chumpblocking a Single creature every turn. She's a evasive finisher especially Not being a creature but that's Not the topic.

I think you're in the wrong thread. Please, cut Elspeth and Shackles for Tarmogoyf and Vendilion Clique, and go visit the CounterTop (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13716) thread. That's the appropriate thread to discuss that deck.

I mean really, how am I supposed to have productive conversation in this thread when your voicing opinions about this decks construction with absolutely no experience with it? I've discussed Elspeth at such great length in the CounterTop Walker thread that I really don't want to have to rehash that topic. If you're going to try re-inventing this decks wheel, at least read some of the basics in the CounterTop Walker thread.


Clique is a flexible play I suggested because you dedicate so much space vs aggro in your maindeck already I felt a card that stands between being an answer to Aggro and combo would be nice. I prefer the Aggro-control style of countertop because I don't feel the softlock is reliable enough today for hardcore control since deckbuilding shifted towards curvy builds like Big Zoo.

I run 12 countermagic spells and 11 removal spells. How am I dedicating too much to the aggro matchup? Have you ever played a dedicated control deck before? 11 removal spells is a necessity for the deck to survive against aggro. I also do not understand you're desire to improve on already good matchups (like G/W and Combo) at the expense of difficult matchups (like Vial Aggro). If you prefer the aggro-control style of CounterTop, then go discuss the aggro-control style of CounterTop in the appropriate thread for it.

Basically, what you're doing right now is comparable to me going into the TES thread and telling them to make changes to make their deck more like ANT because I prefer the ANT-style of combo.

Big Zoo is a fantastic matchup for this deck, by the way.


Engineered explosives is actually great against sligh and zoo while also being terrific against token based combo decks, and can occasionally slap a bitch in the face for putting their 0cc artifacts on the board at the wrong time. Orim's chant is another one of those cards that can essentially counter 2-3 ritual effects and timewalk combo, as well as being able to completely lock agro out of the game with scepter preboard.


Nice catch. I suppose that would be a good aggro card that's good against combo too. However, the deck doesn't really need a card that's good at both; it would be nice, but that's not an area that this deck has problems with right now. Again, EE is a card that's definitely a possibility for this deck, but it conflicts with the synergy of the deck, and that's why I don't prefer to run them.

Isochron Scepter is meh; it requires card diadvantage initially to set it up, and Orim's Chant is lackluster without a Scepter to attach to. I've played with Scepter Control alot a few years back cause I loved the card, but it's just not good enough for me to consider playing anymore.


I've had really mixed results with shackles in the past, it can sometimes seem like the best card in the deck, and sometimes I find myself asking why i even have the card in my collection to begin with. Yes, the card can be amazing with a bunch of basic islands and a few spot removal spells to supplement it in the early game, but i really find it lackluster against all of the stifle/waste strategies running around in today's metagame like new horizons and team america (the card is still good against goblins and merfolk however).


I've had mixed results with Shackles in the past too, with different decks. In fact, I used to really dislike Shackles because it never really worked for me. That's also when I was running manland manabases that contained 4-7 colorless sources, plus a few non-blue basics and duals. There's a big difference between playing with Shackles in a control deck with 2-3 basic Islands and a control deck with 7 basic Islands. Unless I'm casting Elspeth, I literally need only 1 white source of mana, and the rest of my lands can be Islands; 3c and 4c control decks don't have that luxury.

Stifle/Wasteland is also such a lousy plan against me. Shackles is still a house in the New Horizons and Team America matchups, btw.

[thefreakaccident]

Well, it had pretty decent results in extended before they up and banned top, and to be honest i really like how simple and well rounded the list is. I think I need to proxy this up.

[klaus]

Just won a small tourney on my vacation here in Melbourne. I piloted a list tailored after my taste:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven
1 Academy Ruins
(-23-)

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
2 Predict (i never want to see them in the early game, nor in the early midgame, so just 2)
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Path to Exile (meta choice)
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Engineered Eplosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Isochron Scepter
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
(-38-)

Sideboard (15)
2 Aura of Silence
3 Spell Pierce
3 Peacekeeper
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sphere of Law
1 Energy Flux
1 Pithing Needle
1 Baneslayer Angel

Sort of missed Speedstills' Snares, but CB-Top stole enough games to justify that tradeoff.
Scepter keeps proving itself as non-danger-of-cool-things material. With 17 cards to imprint, it has actually never disappointed me. I like how under the right circumstances an Enlightened Tutor can become a win condition that way.

[Jackehehe]

So they say aether vial is counterTop's worst nightmare. Should mental misstep be played in this deck...?

[Donkey_Kongs]

I like this deck (and the name) a lot. Thank you Hanni for your creativity and time developping this deck:smile:

I experimented with the deck and play currently the following version. I often drew too many lands, so I cut 1 land. For me 21 lands seem to be good. For example in 20 games I only mulliganed 4 times to 6 cards because of a lack of lands.

I cut 1 Counterspell and added 2 Spellpierces which I like a lot in the early game. So I play 61 cards. I like flexibility in a control deck. Together with Brainstorm, Top and Predict 61 cards are possible in my opinion.

Flexibiliy is also the reason I added the Swiss Knife Engineerd Explosives. I tested them in sideboard and put them in frequently. So I made some room for them maindeck and added a thrid colour. Currently black...it could also be red for Firespout in sideboard. I think Explosives could also generate card advantage although Explosives could be in a discord to Counterbalance and Shackles. Nevertheless I like the flexibility of Explosives and there are match ups where Counterbalance isn´t so necessary. Explosives help against Mungo, Stoneforge and equipment, Vial, Counterbalance, tokens....

An Enlightened Tutor is very flexible and can count as the 4th Balance, the 3rd Explosives, the 2nd Oblivion Ring. There are 4 cards with converted mana cost 3 (3 Shackles and 1 Oblivion Ring) and 1 Enlightened Tutor to put Counterbalance at 3.


Currently list:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
6 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
(-21-)

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Spellpierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Engineered Eplosives
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
(-40-)

Sideboard:

4 Meddling Mage
1 Spell Pierce
3 Peacekeeper
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Extripate
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Hydroblast
(-15-)


Sorry for my English. This is my first post on the source:wink:

[Wiseman4]

Mental Misstep I believe fits in with Spell Snare, and honestly the counter spell set up should be like, 2 Mental, 2 Snare, 2 Counterspell. Of course needing to be tested but Mental is going to change Legacy a lot since non blue decks can use it. In this deck I think it is needed.

[The Treefolk Master]

Some guy top 8ed in a tournament in Spain with the following list:

4 Flooded strand
3 Polluted delta
1 Marsh flats
3 Tundra
1 Adarkar wastes
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor-haven

4 Force of will
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Path to exile
3 Vedalken shackles
4 Sensei’s divining top
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
2 Elspeth, knight errant
2 Oblivion ring

SIDEBOARD

4 Meddling mage
4 Peacekeeper
2 Moat
3 Pithing needle
2 Ray of distortion

Funny that he has 2 Moats but has to use 1 Adarkar Wastes

Question: Is a Humility/Moat entirely out of the question? And what are your thoughts about an E Tutor toolbox post board?

[Hanni]

Question: Is a Humility/Moat entirely out of the question? And what are your thoughts about an E Tutor toolbox post board?


A singleton Humility or Moat in the maindeck is not entirely out of the question. This is a control deck, so there's always some possibility for variance. However, since this deck is restricted in deck design by Counterbalance and Force of Will (particularly Counterbalance), messing with the curves maindeck can be tricky. Also, with only a singleton and no way to tutor for it, it's a bit random. However, since it is still essentially a removal spell, it adds to the overall removal density, so it's not necessarily a bad idea.

An E Tutor toolbox postboard is a possibility, but it's not something I plan on testing with anytime soon. I like E Tutor as a combo enabler, but I dislike E Tutor as a control spell; the card disadvantage is such a turn off for me. If anyone would like to playtest with an E Tutor toolbox sideboard and post their results, go for it.

Oh, and how big was that tournament?

Also, looking at the guys list: I'd probably cut the Adarkar Wastes for another Island, if he doesn't have the 4th Tundra. Also, Ray of Distortion looks really bad. There are a number of much better artifact/enchantment removal spells out there; I'm curious why he chose that one.

[The Treefolk Master]

I meant splitting Moat/Humility post board (he ran 2 Moats).

The E. Tutor looks interesting in the board, as it lets you diversify and be able to answer anything.

[Hanni]

A 1/1 split of Moat/Humility in the sideboard sounds pretty good, actually. I think I'll try that out.

[Zeisse]

Helo.

First, sorry for my english, I'm the player.

I have the fourth tundra, the adarkar wastes are to combat the chokes. Even after the tournament, I think it is not necessary.

As for the side, I didn't have aura of silence to use. The rays are very bad, I agree with you, only serve to the mirror.

The tournament was small, only 16 players but we played 5 rounds + top 8


My tournament went as follows:

1º ROUND: GW zenith + NO (1-1)

2º ROUND: Paintergrindstone + auriok combo (2-0)

3º ROUND: Burn (0-2)

4º ROUND: GW zenith (2-1)

5º ROUND: Tezzeret affinity (2-1)

QUARTERFINALS: Belcher (2-0)

SEMIFINALS: Agro Bant (2-0) Editing video...

FINAL: GW zenith (2-0) Editing video...



Here are the lists of Top 8

http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4465

[The Treefolk Master]

I saw the lists in that forum first :P

Can't wait for the vids. Did the Zeniths gave you much trouble, or were they're fine?

[Hanni]

Sorry to hear about your 0-2 to Burn. How did you sideboard? That matchup is very dependant on CounterTop, but I bring in Meddling Mages to (try to) absorb a burn spell (basically acting as another Counterspell).

Other than that, congrats on your finish. Glad to see how well you did.

I wouldn't worry about Adarkar Wastes vs Choke though. Choke is never maindecked, so it's a non-issue in game 1. I rarely see Choke coming out of the board against me, but for the times I have seen it, I'm either able to Counterspell it, or use my basic Plains (+Top) to dig for an O Ring. If I knew Chokes were coming in postboard, I'd definitely be bringing in Aura of Silence (or whatever other artifact/enchantment removal is in the board). However, even in the event that Choke does resolve and does some serious damage, I don't see a 1-of Adarkar Wastes helping much.

[Zeisse]

The Suns did not give me too much trouble, you can usually counter it without relying on counter-balance. Also if you are looking for a large creature, we have many ways to get rid of it. If on the other side you are looking for a Qasali pridemage, we have too many targets to destroy to bother.


I bring in Meddling mages and Pithing needles for Figure of destiny and lavamancers. The problem was that I never saw any counterbalance.



Here are the videos of the semifinal against agro bant.



TOP 4, 2º Torneo 1ª LLG, Game 1:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeQCnY0uTrs



TOP 4, 2º Torneo 1ª LLG, Game 2:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlVRCx9FI14

[eluvial]

Great videos! Thanks for posting!
I love this deck and am currently testing out Mental Misstep. Anyone have thoughts on this card?

[The Treefolk Master]

Ouch, double FOW in game two hurts.

Question: In game 2, did you topdeck the elspeth after your Jace got countered, or did you already have the Elspeth in hand?

Nice pimped deck BTW.

[Beatusnox]

Going to be running the list I posted on page two this sunday at a trial, wish me luck.

[klaus]

@ Zeisse:


I'm pretty sure going aggro with Clique wasn't the correct call, even though it won you the game.
Here is why:
You simply weren't the beatdown. Whenever a control.dec faces an aggro.dec your primary gameplan should almost always be to drag the game out to reach the late mid-game as unharmed as possible. Because that's when we'll usually start taking over. Playing Control I have rarely gone on the offense before the late mid-game/early lategame (against Control.dec/Combo it's a different story, of course).
To be more specific: Trying to race an Aggro guy with a 3/1er VS a 2/2 really makes no sense imo, because your life total will eventually drop quite low too, which can be neck breaking at times. Just imagine he'd have drawn a Pridemage - you'd have about 2 turns less to find an out.

The safe way to approach that game would have been to completely shut down the ground with Shackles and Kor Haven until you could have been able to built an army with Elspeth and or casted Jace or get CB-Top going.

Thoughts?

[Arsenal]

The Bant player had very few cards in hand when Clique started getting in, and Bant had absolutely nothing relevant on board (Bant seemed to be land flooded hardcore game 1). Going into beatdown mode with Clique was justifiable in that situation.

EDIT: Have to rewatch to see when he drew into a 2nd Shackles, but the point stands; there was pretty much nothing the Bant player could represent that Superfriends didn't have an answer to. Superfriends had that game locked up the moment that Bant did nothing in the first 4 turns other than swing with Dryad Arbor.

[TheSleeper]

Just won a small tourney on my vacation here in Melbourne.

Melbourne, Australia? I thought I knew about all the tournaments played here but I didn't see this result. Can you shed any light? (links, location) :)

[Wiseman4]

I agree with him going aggro with vendy. In both games the Bant player really got screwed and couldn't do much. So taking advantage was the right choice.

[Zeisse]

@ The Treefolk Master:

I had Elspeth in hand. My intention was to play it after it's play force of will. In my turn, I draw Jace 2.0, so that being better Elspeth in that situation, I play first Jace in case he has FOW.


In the second game, we both made mulligan to five. My hand was plains, top and 3 other card. I was lucky and my 2º and 3º draw were 2 flooded strand.

[Beatusnox]

Any tips on for me playing it this Sunday at the GPT. I really need help with my Sideboard more than anything. Right now its

3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Innocent Blood
3 Disenchant
3 Pithing Needle

I don't really know what I am going to playing against so I figured this was probably a Safe and fairly Universal Sideboard. Except for the Innocent Blood, I have a good removal package as is, but I wanted to be safer, rather than sorry.

[Hanni]

@ Zeisse

Thanks for posting the vids.

[Beatusnox]

Ya'll must have me on ignore i've made like 6 posts in the thread and have yet to get a reply from anyone =/

[melie]

Diabolic Edict x3
Force of Will x4
Counterspell x4
Swords to plowshares x4
Wrath of God x2
Day of Judgment x1
Decree of Justice x2
Counterbalance x4
Oblivion Ring x4
Standstill x2
Sensei's Divining Top x4
Elspeth, Knight-Errant x2
Jace Beleren x2
Mishra's Factory x4
Celestial Collonade x2
Watery Grave x2
Creeping Tar-Pit x2
Tundra x2
Swamp x2
Island x4
Plains x4


@Beatusnox

First of, I don't want to be rude or anything but did you look at your list and look at the deck primer you're posting in?
Super friends is an evolution of Landstill without the factories and Landstills but which still plays Jace 2.0 and Elspeth. Now, you don't have Jace and still play with Landstill and the factories. You also don't run Predict or Shackles, 2 of the essential changes to standard Landstill. So.... Why don't you post your deck in the Landstill thread were it belongs?

As far as the list goes, if you play purely for fun or you play in a casual setting, your list is great. But don't expect to many good results in competative tournaments. You really really really need fetchlands in Legacy.. There's just no excuse, especially when you run Top and are in Brainstorm color. Also, Jace 1.0 really dissappointed me in Legacy. He's really bad in aggro heavy meta's and I find him also lacking against combo. Last thing, don't play Decree of Justice. It's just terrible in the current meta. Aggro is far to fast and against combo it letteraly doesn't do anything.

As far as you list construction goes, it has a good balance between all the components. It's just that the expensive cards in Legacy are just far superior to their cheaper look a likes.

I play Landstill for almost 5 years now and have played wit budget versions myself so I have some experience with them and I can tell you that you'll have a very hard time against the top tier fully streamlined decks. But he, like I said, if you just play for fun and winning is secondary, you go out there and have fun!

If you want more advice on your list specifically, you can always pm me or just post in the Landstill thread.

grtz,
Melie

[Beatusnox]

@Beatusnox

First of, I don't want to be rude or anything but did you look at your list and look at the deck primer you're posting in?
Super friends is an evolution of Landstill without the factories and Landstills but which still plays Jace 2.0 and Elspeth. Now, you don't have Jace and still play with Landstill and the factories. You also don't run Predict or Shackles, 2 of the essential changes to standard Landstill. So.... Why don't you post your deck in the Landstill thread were it belongs?

As far as the list goes, if you play purely for fun or you play in a casual setting, your list is great. But don't expect to many good results in competative tournaments. You really really really need fetchlands in Legacy.. There's just no excuse, especially when you run Top and are in Brainstorm color. Also, Jace 1.0 really dissappointed me in Legacy. He's really bad in aggro heavy meta's and I find him also lacking against combo. Last thing, don't play Decree of Justice. It's just terrible in the current meta. Aggro is far to fast and against combo it letteraly doesn't do anything.

As far as you list construction goes, it has a good balance between all the components. It's just that the expensive cards in Legacy are just far superior to their cheaper look a likes.

I play Landstill for almost 5 years now and have played wit budget versions myself so I have some experience with them and I can tell you that you'll have a very hard time against the top tier fully streamlined decks. But he, like I said, if you just play for fun and winning is secondary, you go out there and have fun!

If you want more advice on your list specifically, you can always pm me or just post in the Landstill thread.

grtz,
Melie

See this is the problem with people here, I post on the Landstill forum, I get sent here. I post here, yall send my back over there. If you actually read the post I made you would see all the card choices you openly attacked are explained. If you honestly feel my list does nothing against Aggro or combo why would I try to play it? In the old thread there was a lot of debate on whether or not stand still should be cut, with people on both sides of the Argument. I have predicts in the list, why I didnt list them before I dont know =/
Locally Ihave beat ANT(doomsday), TES, Goblins, Burn, Stompy, Merfolk, High Tide, Aeon Bridge, Leylines, The Gate, Ascension, there is more to the list.
Played against Spanish Inquisition but never got to finish. There is no local Belcher,

[melie]

See this is the problem with people here, I post on the Landstill forum, I get sent here. I post here, yall send my back over there. If you actually read the post I made you would see all the card choices you openly attacked are explained. If you honestly feel my list does nothing against Aggro or combo why would I try to play it? In the old thread there was a lot of debate on whether or not stand still should be cut, with people on both sides of the Argument. I have predicts in the list, why I didnt list them before I dont know =/
Locally Ihave beat ANT(doomsday), TES, Goblins, Burn, Stompy, Merfolk, High Tide, Aeon Bridge, Leylines, The Gate, Ascension, there is more to the list.
Played against Spanish Inquisition but never got to finish. There is no local Belcher,

I'm not going to debate this with you.. But just look at this check list.
What is Hanni's list about?
No Factories X
No Landstill X
Elspeth V
Jace X
Predict V
Shackles X
You only run 2 of the 6 defining cards that make this deck it's own unique self. Also, running Predict with only Top to support it and no Jace 2.0 or Brainstorm isn't the best idea I think.

Again, I don't want to attack you in anyway. It's just that this list is a pure Landstill list. It's a UW control deck that plays Standstill and wins with manlands.. Only difference is that it also plays counter top but there have been many Landstill decks that did this in the past. Anyway...

On your perfomance, I had much much worse results playing with budget control lists. If the results you had were against potent opponents with actual complete top tier lists and not MWS level player, well, more power to you.

Like I said, if you want you can always pm me. I have loads of 'budget' landstill lists that I used to play.

[Jackehehe]

I have some thoughts regarding elspeth and in particular the SB plan vs merfolk.

As a disclaimer I want to mention that I have very limited experience playing with elspeth.

The point with elspeth is supposedly to be an out vs aggro and in general creature-based decks. However, I find myself to pretty much every board in peacekeeper vs every creature based decks running 10+ creatures which in turn renders elspeth useless...? peacekeeper and elspeth are obviously counter-productive and peacekeeper is faster than elspeth, so no reason to keep her in as an out while you wait for elspeth.

Basically, what im trying to say is that I pretty much never use elspeth post board vs creature based decks and I am half expecting that the point with elspeth is to fight other controll decks? if someone could shed some light what her role in this deck is I would be grateful.

Also, why would one keep elspeth in vs merfolk (corahelm) when boarding in peacekeeper with my above logic? I really feel like im missing something here! Imo the natural plan would be to go -2 o-rings and 2- elspeth for peacekeeper and then perhaps predict (it is a bit slow) for needles

[Hanni]

Ya'll must have me on ignore i've made like 6 posts in the thread and have yet to get a reply from anyone =/

I'm sorry I didn't address your post earlier. I've been extremely busy in real life, and there have been several replies that I haven't gotten to.

Onto your list.

I'm not going to be as blunt about it as melie, but you really cannot operate this deck properly by playing budget cards. There's plenty of great decks in Legacy that don't cost an arm and a leg. Unforuntately, this deck is not one of them. You absolutely need fetchlands; there is literally no replacement.

There's really not a good reason to run 3 WoG effects over the Shackles. I used to play with 3 WoG myself not so long ago, but Shackles is a massive improvement for the deck. However, your list has too low of an Island count to make them work. Which brings me to my next point:


See this is the problem with people here, I post on the Landstill forum, I get sent here. I post here, yall send my back over there.

I completely understand your frustration here. I had the same problem back in 2008 when I was advocating Counterbalance in Landstill. Those guys did not budge then, and they won't budge now. If you're list has CounterTop, then they are gonna tell you to visit this thread, Ultimate Walker, CounterTop Thopters, or some other CounterTop-based control thread. Sorry, but this cannot be helped.

However, you really are a Landstill deck; CounterTop Landstill, but still Landstill. You run 8 manlands, 4 of which come into play tapped, and 2 Standstill's. If you read the primer, my ultra strong manabase is a defining characteristic for what makes this deck so successful where many other control decks are failing right now.

Anyway, I'll still try to help you with a few suggestions for your list. I just wanted you to realize that you're deck isn't really CounterTop Superfriends, although melie already pointed that out.

Jace Beleren is bad. If you cannot afford Jace TMS, that does not mean that you should just sub in Jace Beleren. There's really no good replacement for Jace TMS, but I'd argue that Decree of Justice is a much stronger win condition than old Jace. Or you could simply go up to 4 Standstill's since you already run Decree's, which is what I'd suggest.

You're removal package is also extremely dense. Although, I can somewhat understand why, since you run no Brainstorm's. Honestly though, the new Zendikar fetchlands really aren't that expensive (although for this deck, Flooded Strands are clearly the way to go). You really need Brainstorm + fetchlands. Top is crap without fetchlands, and Brainstorm is essential for having the proper answers in the early game. You'll notice a much larger increase in overall consistency once you upgrade to Brainstorm and fetchlands. If you plan on spending any money on any other cards whatsoever, and plan to continue playing this sort of deck, you need to make fetchlands (and Brainstorm) your top priority. Get some dude, seriously. Otherwise, you're betting off trading your cards for a cheaper deck like Merfolk.

I hope this helps. If not, maybe consider making a new thread for your deck in the N&D forum, titled Budget Control Deck. You might get some more constructive help that way. This thread is meant to discuss highly tuned versions with no budget constraints in mind, in order to develop the strongest possible deck configuration.

EDIT: If I came off sounding like an ass, I didn't mean it that way. I'm trying to be as helpful as I can. If the truth hurts, I'm sorry.

[Hanni]

I have some thoughts regarding elspeth and in particular the SB plan vs merfolk.

As a disclaimer I want to mention that I have very limited experience playing with elspeth.

The point with elspeth is supposedly to be an out vs aggro and in general creature-based decks. However, I find myself to pretty much every board in peacekeeper vs every creature based decks running 10+ creatures which in turn renders elspeth useless...? peacekeeper and elspeth are obviously counter-productive and peacekeeper is faster than elspeth, so no reason to keep her in as an out while you wait for elspeth.

If you're bringing Peacekeeper into every aggro matchup, you may be sideboarding wrong. Peacekeeper is great against decks with a dense amount of creatures and either very little or no removal. You really don't want to bring Peacekeeper in against any deck with a dense amount of removal, or decks with a light amount of creatures that have alternate win conditions that don't involve attacking.

Also, Elspeth is perfectly fine under a Peacekeeper. You keep ramping out 1/1 tokens every turn until Elspeth goes ultimate, all of the 1/1 tokens (and everything else) becomes indestructible, you ramp out however many more that you need to infinitely/indefinitely chump block, and then make 1 more that you can swing with. Then you sacrifice Peacekeeper in your upkeep (by not paying the upkeep cost), and swing at the opponent with a 4/4 flier until dead.


Basically, what im trying to say is that I pretty much never use elspeth post board vs creature based decks and I am half expecting that the point with elspeth is to fight other controll decks? if someone could shed some light what her role in this deck is I would be grateful.

Elspeth fills alot of roles. She's amazing against control decks because they have an incredibly difficult time dealing with her, and she assassinates opposing Jace's (or other Planeswalkers). She's rock solid against aggro because she buys plenty of time for you to draw the removal you need, and then goes back to doing her thing. If you're boarding her out for Peacekeeper in every aggro matchup, you may be sideboarding wrong.


Also, why would one keep elspeth in vs merfolk (corahelm) when boarding in peacekeeper with my above logic? I really feel like im missing something here! Imo the natural plan would be to go -2 o-rings and 2- elspeth for peacekeeper and then perhaps predict (it is a bit slow) for needles

The problem with dropping Elspeth is that this deck drops very low in win conditions, and if the Merfolk opponent happens to counter your Jace during the game (or destroy it by swinging), you're left with very little ways to actually win. Peacekeeper is great at stalling the board out, but this deck still needs to win. If you don't draw a Peacekeeper right away, Elspeth can help slow the bleeding against Merfolk (so long as you can keep Coralhelm and Atlantis off the board). I've never attempted to board her out vs Merfolk, so maybe boarding her out is the right call, but I don't know if that would really be the best idea.

[Hanni]

Sorry for triple posting, but I figured it would be cleaner if I addressed three seperate issues with three seperate posts.


I love this deck and am currently testing out Mental Misstep. Anyone have thoughts on this card?

The problem with trying to fit Mental Misstep into this deck, is that's it's already loaded with 1 drops. The only place the deck can really cut from to fit it would be the two Path to Exile's, or the two Oblivion Rings.

The thing is, there's not really a whole lot of 1 drops that this deck really worries about. I'd much rather Path a turn 1 Nacatl than pay 2 life to counter it; I can easily wait till turn 2 to cast a Brainstorm or drop a Top.

The only two spells in the format that are worth countering for free and paying 2 life, that cannot be answered by Path to Exile, are Top and Vial.

Against most decks playing Top, I'm usually the favored matchup. The only matchup that also runs Top that's problematic (that I can think of) is Dreadstill, and I admit that Mental Misstep would be great in that matchup... but I simply don't see that matchup enough to make such a drastic change.

Against Vial, I agree that Mental Misstep is a definite powerhouse. In a metagame full of Vial Aggro, I can see the justification for running Mental Misstep. I'd likely cut 2 Oblivion Ring to fit 2 Mental Misstep in a metagame full of Vial Aggro, although cutting 2 Path's for the last 2 Misstep's would be questionable.

For the most part, I really don't think the deck needs Mental Misstep. The only 1 drop I really care about is Aether Vial, and while it does have other uses, I'm not sure if the deck needs it. I may be wrong, and I can definitely see Mental Misstep being great in other control shells... I guess only time and alot of testing will tell.

I do know that postboard, I'd much rather bring in Pithing Needle to answer Aether Vial, since it's proactive and shuts down all 4, while hitting other relevant targets like Mutavault, etc.

[Beatusnox]

The reason my removal is so dense is due to a local meta being filled with aggro. that was one of the things I was wondering about, Should I remove the Edicts to the sideboard to make room for more control Centric Pieces? Brain storms have been added, I really should update my list on here <_<.

How many fetchlands do you recommend 5-7? All of them U/X?

Thank you for putting your post politely btw, it puts me less on the angry defensive and more into a communicative mood.

Also, As for the sideboard I finally found my Divine Offerings, should I run those over the Disenchants?

My sideboarding Plans with the one I posted.

Against Burn, and Targeting Combo: Leyline of Sanctity

Against Stuff with Reliquary and Goyf/dredge: Innocent Blood and Tormod's Crypt

Against Countertop, Vial Aggro, and Landstill: Divine Offering/Disenchant, Pithing Needle

Against Ascension: Pithing needle and Innocent Blood/Tormod's Crypt

Against Aeon Bridge: Pithing Needle and Innocent Blood

Sorry for long post, just please let me know if I'm going about some sideboard wrong.

[.nemesis]

Hai Guys!

So, with NPH waiting at the gates to be released, I've been thinking about some cards to be included in Superfriends. As some of you may remember, I've been running a UWb list for some time, which could punch big holes into anything.

But then I stumbled upon Beast Within, which made me rethink the black splash (which was mainly for Vindicates and Edict effects) - it can be seen as a functional replacement for Vindicate after all. Plus, it does some neat tricks with Vedalken Shackles and can generate dudes for when you have to go beatdown.
When you're splashing green, Firespout comes to mind quickly, also because of my perceived need for Redblasts in the sideboard, so splashing red has some merits too.

This is the list I threw together and want to discuss - enter Supreme Superfriends:

//Landbase
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Tolaria West
1 Kor Haven
1 Academy Ruins

//Superfriends
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Firespout
3 Beast Within

//Permission
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance

//Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict

//Sideboard
2 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Mental Misstep
2 Negate (initially was Spell Pierce, but became Negate for mana curve reasons)


It should work almost the same as UWb Superfriends, the main difference being 5 spells. My primary concern in building this was the Goblins, GWpileofcrap.dec and Sneak Show matchup, which were really tough for me all the time. Without Edicts, I obviously lose outs to Sneak Show, but Firespout should even out the other 2 Matchups. Postboard, I should be able to completely lock Sneak Show out, being able to counter all their stuff.

I'm not entirely sure on the manabase. Would like some advice on that from people who have run Supreme Blue and were facing a tempo-heavy metagame. 8 Fetches should be correct, I won't let go of the Tolaria/Kor Haven/Ruins package but the numbers seem strange to me. I've never played a 4c Control deck though.

Also, I find my sideboard a bit lacking. We currently have almost no Enchantress and Chalice Stompy decks here, but lots of Vial decks and Dredge. I guess there's lots of good stuff against those decks but in the past I got curbstomped that one time too often and I hate Merfolk, Goblins and Dredge with a passion. This is why I miss those Peacekeepers, but they ultimately had to go because of Firespout - which are better against Goblins and GW. Is there a catch-all that doesn't interfere with Firespout and is not Moat (which I can't afford as a 3-of right now)?

Sadly, I can't test this list out in the next week, so any advice is appreciated until I get down to testing. I'm not sure if UWrg is the way to go, but I see Beast Within way above Vindicate and so I want this to work.

[C Rayz Walz]

Hanni- I agree with you about mental Misstep and honestly, the more I play with that card if it is not in your opening hand I don't find it to be as strong. I this deck already runs a bunch tone of removal and I can't see cutting it just like Hanni said. Decks like merfolk and tempo base decks benefit from this a lot more than this deck deck.

.nemesis- I personally don't like your mana base and while firespout is good I would rather just run moat vs the decks that you would want firespout vs. Beast with in just seems not as good in this deck as vindicate and I do love that new card. I feel if you want a versatile card I would rather have vindicate.

[HokusSchmokus]

Hanni- I agree with you about mental Misstep and honestly, the more I play with that card if it is not in your opening hand I don't find it to be as strong. I this deck already runs a bunch tone of removal and I can't see cutting it just like Hanni said. Decks like merfolk and tempo base decks benefit from this a lot more than this deck deck.

.nemesis- I personally don't like your mana base and while firespout is good I would rather just run moat vs the decks that you would want firespout vs. Beast with in just seems not as good in this deck as vindicate and I do love that new card. I feel if you want a versatile card I would rather have vindicate.

Why? Beast within is INSTANT vindicate, with a minor flaw that can still be used as a win condidtion/chump blockers if your opponent does not have the right targets.

[GGoober]

It is hilarious to Beast Within and then Shackles the token and win with it, just pointing it out :P

[.nemesis]

It is hilarious to Beast Within and then Shackles the token and win with it, just pointing it out :P

That's why I considered it in the first place. It also gets hit by Firespout while we're at it.

Plus, if you have a redundant SDT, you can tap it EOT to draw a card, then Beast Within it to generate a Hill Giant for 3 mana without any loss of card advantage.

The point is, Instant speed is so huge, it should be worth the drawback of giving your opponent a free dude almost every time.

[melie]

Love the deck but I'm really unimpressed with Predict. It's to cluncky imho. It's not only slow but it messes up the top of your deck which is very awkward if you have counter-top in play. Also, I don't find it that important to have actual cards in hand with Top in play. I'm only playing 2 atm but I find them to be the 2 worst cards in my deck by far.
The problem is that you just can't cut them because you'll end up with to few 2cc cards. In my UWb version I played Lim-Dûl's Vault (one of the most underrated cards in Legacy?) which I liked a lot better because it also serves as kind of a counterspell with Counterbalance in play. Now I don't think that splashing black is worth it (+ Vindicate) so I went searching for alternatives but couldn't find any good 2cc cards that this deck could use. Again this can be solved by splashing black for 2cc removel (GftT or Edict come to mind) but I like the 2 colour version of this deck to much. I also tried Impulse but I don't think we need an effect like that.

Now I came up with the idea of playing Enlightened tutor. Yes, it's not a 2cc card for Counterbalance but it can fetch one so it also counts like a counter (just like Lim-Dûl's Vault). And because we also have 1 and 3 cc artifacts it plays perfectly with Counterbalance in play. This way you also get a lot of maindeck and sideboard utility card options. I'm playing 2 atm and I think it's a big improvement over Predict. Also, the most powerfull cards in our deck are all artifacts / enchantments, except for the Walkers.

I know a lot of people don't like Enlightened Tutor for it's card advantage but I'd rather have a card that can fetch all the awesome enchantments/artifacts in our deck and also acts as a counter with Counterbalance than having a Predict, which you can only play with certain cards in play or in hand and that also messes up the top of your library.


EDIT:: Because of the obvious synergy with Tutor I'm also testing Thopter/Sword combo in the deck atm instead of Elspeth. It still has all the cards the deck normally has only -3 predict + 2 ETutor -2 Elspeth + 1 Sword of the Meek + 2 Thopter Foundry. I'm pretty impressed with the results so far but I don't know if it still should be posted in this forum topic (it only has 5 cards total different maindeck though).. Also I don't think there is a clear winner. Each win condition has it's own pro's and con's.

[Wiseman4]

What don't you like about running the three colors? I would think that the option of siding Dark Confidant should be more than enough, along with Lim Dul and Vindicate, to add the third color

[melie]

What don't you like about running the three colors? I would think that the option of siding Dark Confidant should be more than enough, along with Lim Dul and Vindicate, to add the third color

I didn't say I don't like the build. It's just that I play in a metagame full of Wasteland in which the 2 colour manabase is just awesome. Also the only black cards I really mis are Lim-Dûl's Vault and Duress out of the board. I find Oblivion Ring almost exactly the same as Vindicate in actual play. So for me it's just a question between a very resilient manabase and playing Lim-Dûls Vault. Thanks to my burning hatred against Wasteland, my choice is quite obvious :)

[routlaw]

I almost wish the deck's name was Countertop MakeYourLandDrops, because that's the huge difference in this deck vs. other Counterbalance builds I've played (and I've played all the modern ones, ranging from Martell-style 4c to Thopters) . Accumulating lands while exerting enough board control to not die is literally the deck's first early and mid game. This deck plays seven expensive bombs (Shackles, Jace, Elspeth), and the importance in resolving these cards without stumbling over your land drops can't be overstated in a majority of matchups.

Keep in mind that splashing in this deck necessitates running more blue dual lands, since you need every Island card on the board that you can get for Shackles. So when you splash for a color/card, you are doing so directly at the expense of your mana base stability. Throwing in a basic swamp in this deck when splashing or black, for example, is not workable in this deck like it is for the red in Supreme Blue. I'm not saying you can't splash a color, but there's a cost in doing so. Splashing two additional colors while playing this deck's finisher set seems near impossible unless you have found a magical fairy Legacy metagame where people don't play Wastelands as a four-of in their aggro decks.

Beast Within-this card is a quality card, but it is conditional. Oblivion Ring or Vindicate aren't conditional, they just make a large range of problems go away. If you have Shackles online and grabbing dudes you've usually won the game, even if the opponent doesn't yet know it. It also means splashing green which is so much worse than the other two options (red/black). I'd rather have the other colors and their more robust sideboard options than green here. This card could have some implications for other CB builds (such as Bant decks with Goyf/Knight/Monk, or Supreme Blue builds with MD Firespout), but it really wants to paired with your own (better than a 3/3) creatures to mitigate the conditionality of the card.

Dark Confidant - Potentially worth looking into a a sideboard gotcha when the opponent boards out removal, or maindeck over Predict in a build with Misstep as a four-of since that card is so good at protecting Bob.

I think once you start discussing decisions like maindeck Enlightened Tutor or Lim-Dul's Vault, awesome as they may be ( and they are very good cards ), you're starting to veer the deck away from it's basic premise of cheap one-for-one answers followed up by expensive card-advantage bombs, and pushing it more towards sacrificing cards for speed in assembling game-breaking combos or lock pieces. Both are very legit ways to build a modern Legacy control deck, but I don't know if those cards are in keeping with the design ideals of this deck. I've considered playing a Enlightened Tutor sideboard here since boarding in cards that win games upon resolution in certain matchups is really what you need to do with a sideboard plan, but the hatebear plan is so synergistic with the rest of the deck that I can't quite justify it. Peacekeeper in particular is just insane in decks that can win with Jace, The Mind Sculptor.

[Hanni]

@ Predict

I don't find Predict to be clunky at all. It's not a spell that needs to be cast early. Unless you had to mulligan hard, you don't need the card advantage early, and you have other spells to be casting. Getting a draw 2 out of Predict is extremely easy by the time I actually need to refuel my hand.

Screwing with the top of the library with Counterbalance in play is fine. Think of it as a shuffle effect (like a fetchland). Sometimes, you actually want to Predict to see a fresh top 3 so that you can counter whatever spell the opponent plays with Counterbalance (digging for the cc required). Or sometimes you just wanna dig to find the answer that you need. Othertimes, you have a Brainstorm in hand and cast Predict, and can use Brainstorm later to put back whatever cc you need to have back on top of the library.

I think Predict is a perfect fit for what this deck wants out of it, unless they print another 2cc blue draw spell that is better (and I'm not holding my breath for that). If you're not satisfied with Predict, I really don't know what to suggest. Nothing else in that spot really fills the function that it's intending to do, which is to be blue for FoW, 2cc for Counterbalance, and add some additional card advantage and card quality. For me personally, I will not be dropping Predict anytime soon.

@ Beast Within

I can see the pros and cons for this card, but I'm content sticking to my U/W version for now. If the demand is high enough, I can add Beast Within to the list of playable spells for the green splash in the Primer.

[Wiseman4]

I would say splash black for vindicate before beast within, that way things like Lim Dul's Vault and the sided Confidant can happen. Also, black allows for perish, plague, and extripate in the sideboard.

[HokusSchmokus]

I don't find green to be a bad splash color at all.
Instant Vindicate, Krosan Grip, Submerge, Firespout, are all good cards imho.
Krosan Grip was the one thing I always missed.

[routlaw]

Piloted this to a 4-1 finish in a 20-man tournament yesterday, getting 4th on the 4-1 breakers (same record as the winner). Split matches were Merfolk, beat Affinity twice, and beat GW Maverick+NO. My main deviation was a black splash (two Seas, one less Tundra and island) for some Perish and Plague expecting tons of green dudes/Progenitus and Merfolk, and I only own one Peacekeeper (something that I am fixing ASAP) and couldn't borrow any at the event. I ran a 1/1 split Moat/Humility and cut a Pithing Needle. Maindeck was otherwise unchanged.

Oddly enough the black SB card I really wish I had was Darkblast. For all the worries of big green dudes, there sure are a lot of 1 toughness and 2 toughness creatures running around in the format, and Darkblast has some sick synergy with Top.

Quick MU notes:

Played Merfolk twice as mentioned. Won the first match 2-0, lost the second match 2-1 after winning G1, then seeing 2 lands (both in my opener w/ Top) in about 17 cards in G2, and then mull to 6 and die to silvergills into mutavault/ lord spam nut draw w/ double misstep.

Plague was somewhat win-more here, it was a lockout piece but you needed two in play and that took so long that you were likely winning w/ Shackles anyway. Peacekeeper would have done the same thing on resolution. Not having more Needles hurt, you actually really do want three to stop Vial, Mutavaults, and then Coralhelm.

Misstep was a huge PITA to play against. All our one-drop spells are insanely powerful and provide the early interaction this deck needs against Merfolk to just not get run over. Playing around Daze isn't hard, playing around Cursecatcher isn't hard, but you can't really play around Misstep. There's redundancy in the one-drop slot in this deck , but early on you are riding the ability to play cheap interaction/filter until you get your bombs online, and having one of them stopped is rough and having two of them hit is probably going to make you stumble enough to where Merfolk can get that "two creatures and a mutavault, swing for 8" turn that usually means you've lost.

Affinity really suffers from having no way to stop your own cheap interactions, and then suffering badly due to having poor overall card quality of the deck in the late game. Your SB is insane against them. They have a very hard time beating an Elspeth. Tezzeret is really their out in the matchup, as long as you leave in the o-rings and bring in the needles (for plating/blinkmoth/inkmoth, and Tezzeret) they just have a hard time getting anything going.

The GW list took me three games to win-the player had a full set of Pridemages, Zeniths, and I think maindecked Beast Within and boarded in Grips. That's a lot of hate. I was able to CB lock game 1, which was the only game in the entire day that I got mileage out of Counterbalance. That's just unfortunate pairings though.

Thoughts:

I'll be running the exact 75 with a split of Moat / Humility next time. No splash though, once you hit six non-basics you really start to lose your edge against Wasteland, and you might as well be running a wilder manabase that just plays just enough basics to not lose to moon effects or Price of Progress like the Supreme Blue lists do and just fight through the Wastelands.

Mental Misstep in Merfolk makes the deck much harder to play against. I'm not sure what the right response to it is, or even if it is a real problem. But getting plows and paths on lords and mutavaults countered when carefully playing around Daze and Cursecatcher is just huge. They can't win without those creatures-I have the tools to stabilize.

Peacekeeper is still bananas though and I think it's the best way to stabilize the matchup. I'm a believer in the recommnended full playset, it's just better than slower options like Llawan or Plague.


The "bombs" the deck runs are truly sick and shouldn't be messed with. You want to see multiple shackles in a long game w/ a creature deck so the three count is right. The Planeswalker count is also just right. I don't know why people are so against the Predicts-the marginal card advantage from it is deceptively strong (much like the card draw from Silvergill Adept) and puts you in a mode where you "always" have the counter or removal for their plays.

The list felt well-tuned (aside from my changes) and I really enjoyed it. I never went to time in any of my matches, but I am used to playing w/ Top and didn't dawdle, always planning for my own turn during my opponent's turn-I think this is key for avoiding draws. Honestly, once you get past the early turns the deck just goes into "prison" mode for most decks and you just have EOT Top, Jace fateseal or Elspeth token beats, pass turn going on most of the time.

[YoullBeDead]

What are your thoughts on using "Long-Term Plans" as a tutor rather than Enlightened?

The Top makes it a stealth tutor for anything, whether to setup the "Counter"-balance with exactly what is needed or to top/draw any card in your deck directly into your hand as an instant. Plus its a three for counterbalance itself.

[routlaw]

It's still a variant of a card disadvantage tutor, which (at least mainboard, an e-tutor based sideboard would be interesting though I am not sure if it is necessary ) is something that this deck is trying to avoid. Unlike decks like CounterTop Thopter or the Gearheart turbo-tutor lists with the new Tezzeret, this deck has a strong focus on having versatile one-for-ones and then playing the deck's seven "trumps" and Predict to generate card advantage.

Tutors are there to provide consistent access to powerful virtual card advantage tools in a control deck. Enlightened Tutor, which has resiliency to discard effects and can access a number of powerful cards of that type in this deck, would be the choice if running a topdeck tutor effect. The issue there is that if you are running multiple copies of E-Tutor maindeck, then you might as well play Thopter/Sword combo, which in turn brings you to playing a much different deck.

(Would love to see a alternative e-tutor sideboard for this deck. I advocate them pretty hard in non-blue decks with white because of the ability to reliably deploy hate fast against decks where they need it, and wouldn't mind trying an alternative strategy to the "man plan" of Peacekeeper and Meddling Mages. Though I'm not sure I would ever want to play a U/W/* Jace deck without Peacekeeper in the board ever again. That card is insane.)

[YoullBeDead]

For the cash strapped, what do you think of ensnaring bridge as an alternative to Moat?

[eluvial]

Ensaring Bridge seems pretty bad when our goal is to maximize card advantage. Humility, Wrath of God, Shackles are all better.

[melie]

My current list:

MAIN
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2 Predict
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
4 Swords to Plowshare
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Path to Exile
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility

SB
4 Meddling Mage
4 Peace Keeper
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Aura of Silence
1 Engineered Explosives

As you can see, there's only a 2 card difference; -1 Shackles, -1 Predict, +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Humility.
I actually like the change a lot. I've allready explained in detail why I like ETutor in this list in a previous post but to sum it up again;
- Acts as a hard counter for 1, 2, 3 cc cost spells with CounterBalance in play
- Searches all you game breaking artifacts / enchantments
- Gives you a virtual extra copy of each SB artifact or enchantment
- Let's me shave another Predict (still think this is the worst card in the deck)
- With only 1 I don't think your deck gets significantly slower so I find the card disadvantage doesn't outwheigh the pure card selection. + It's alsmost like a Demonic Tutor with top in play.
I also included Humility 1x main. Humility is always best in g1 before sideboarding and can single handedly win you a game so I like my 1 copy main (2 virtual with the ETutor).

SB is also a little different because of the '1 extra copy' you get form each enchantment or artifact card with ETutor in the main.

Thoughts?

[Dalapin]

With the release of NPH, what are the changes to this deck going to be?

[YoullBeDead]

Just a mention, I was fiddling with this with a Black tint to it and tried out Merieke Ri Berit just as a lark. Turns out to be a friggin riot, with Jace to bounce her, its gimme-smack you-bounce her-gimme another. She's easy to kill but by the time they've been attrited of critter answers shes ready to dance. It was worth it if just for the comic relief.

I really like the deck Hanni, suprisingly resilient.

[Hanni]

As you can see, there's only a 2 card difference; -1 Shackles, -1 Predict, +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Humility.
I actually like the change a lot. I've allready explained in detail why I like ETutor in this list in a previous post but to sum it up again;
- Acts as a hard counter for 1, 2, 3 cc cost spells with CounterBalance in play
- Searches all you game breaking artifacts / enchantments
- Gives you a virtual extra copy of each SB artifact or enchantment
- Let's me shave another Predict (still think this is the worst card in the deck)
- With only 1 I don't think your deck gets significantly slower so I find the card disadvantage doesn't outwheigh the pure card selection. + It's alsmost like a Demonic Tutor with top in play.
I also included Humility 1x main. Humility is always best in g1 before sideboarding and can single handedly win you a game so I like my 1 copy main (2 virtual with the ETutor).

SB is also a little different because of the '1 extra copy' you get form each enchantment or artifact card with ETutor in the main.

Thoughts?

Looks pretty good. I may try that list out when I get the chance to.


With the release of NPH, what are the changes to this deck going to be?

No changes. Mental Misstep is a really strong card for other control decks like Landstill, but it isn't a counter that this deck really needs. Opposing Mental Misstep's can be a pain (especially in multiples), but there's no remedy for that. The sideboard addresses those sort of matchups anyway (like Peacekeeper vs Merfolk).

[YoullBeDead]

I've been testing Perilous Research instead of Predict. It complements shackles and I won a match against painter by being able to kill off painters this way when my opponent managed to kill both needles I had on grindstone... since merely controlling his painter's servant didn't stop the madness. When I sac'd it in response he was mortified.

What do you think Hanni? I realize the effective "counter" function Predict has against opponents tutors is very powerful. I'd love to have both capabilities.

I'm going to test a couple mortorpods for a "sac" function instead next.

[.nemesis]

I've finally been able to play the 4c list I posted, and let me tell you, I was horribly wrong. Beast Within sucks if you don't have Shackles active or Firespout at hand. You basically have to board it out if either other complementary removal gets boarded out. I quickly learned to hate the card, though it's really nice on paper.

This is, btw, the same I think of Perilous Research. If you have excess permanents due to Shackles, it's oh-so-awesome, but if you don't it's close to a dead card because it just cycles itself and a permanent from play. Predict generates actual card advantage from the moment where you have a Top and thus is a million times better.

You could, on the other hand, combine it with Hatching Plans and get a really powerful draw engine... :D

[Jackehehe]

I know standstill has been discussed thoroughly in the primer already, but with the printing of mental misstep don't you guys think its time to discuss every controll players wet dream? i.e counterbalance + standstill in a single deck.

This idea is probably still as far fetched as it was prior to NPH, but still, guys, MM sets up standstill PERFECTLY.

Is it possible?

or a better question would be: is it worth it?

[DragoFireheart]

I know standstill has been discussed thoroughly in the primer already, but with the printing of mental misstep don't you guys think its time to discuss every controll players wet dream? i.e counterbalance + standstill in a single deck.

This idea is probably still as far fetched as it was prior to NPH, but still, guys, MM sets up standstill PERFECTLY.

Is it possible?

or a better question would be: is it worth it?

What would the deck list look like?

[nayon]

4 Counterbalance
4 SDT
4 Landstill
4 Mental Misstep
4 FoW
3 JTMS
3 Elspeth
4 StP
4 Factory


This would probably be a shell to start with. I'd like to run Ajani Vengeant to be honest. You can tap down the occasional threat they let through.

[Hanni]

The problem with going that route is the Counterbalance curve.

First of all, if you go tossing in 4 Factories, you have to retool the deck. That means either adding more land (the best option), or cutting from Islands. Cutting Islands is bad because not only does it weaken the manabase, it also weakens Shackles.

If we go with the "add more lands" route, then something else from the deck has to be cut. This is an incredibly fine-tuned deck, so making big cuts is a very difficult task.

Secondly, if we go straight into cutting Counterspells for Mental Missteps, we not only lose alot of reach (Counterspell counters all bombs, Mental Misstep only counters 1cc spells), we also drop the 2cc count far too low. The only feasible way to compensate that I can think of, would be to cut Elspeth's for Tarmogoyf's... at which point the deck is starting to become an entirely different deck altogether.

From there, we still need to cut alot more stuff to fit in the Factories, the rest of the Goyf's, and Mental Misstep. Path to Exile and Oblivion Ring are easy cuts, but past that... it's a mess.

There's definitely merit in going with a Supreme Blue style, but it's no longer Countertop Superfriends. Honestly, I'm very intrigued about running Knight of the Reliquary in a deck with Mishra's Factories, since excess lands in the mid-late equate to additional "creatures." Something like a 3/2 split of Goyf/Knight or something. However, that discussion would belong in a different thread.

[sarapfish]

I'm just about to switch to this route of Countertop (from Bant). I'm tinkering with this build right now:

Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
8 Island
2 Plains

Creatures (0)

Spells (38)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Vedalken Shackles

Minor differences from Hanni's list...and I"m thinking of putting in a Pithing Needle in main, and maybe the possibility of using an Enlightened Tutor to support it..so probably going -1 Predict and -1 Path to Exile. Do you think it's a good idea?

By the way, great work on the primer thread-starter! Got me convinced to try it out. :D

[DragoFireheart]

Secondly, if we go straight into cutting Counterspells for Mental Missteps, we not only lose alot of reach (Counterspell counters all bombs, Mental Misstep only counters 1cc spells), we also drop the 2cc count far too low. The only feasible way to compensate that I can think of, would be to cut Elspeth's for Tarmogoyf's... at which point the deck is starting to become an entirely different deck altogether.



Aether Vial says hello on turn one.

This deck NEEDs Mental Misstep. There is no reason to not run it. Something else is taking a slot? Take it out: that card is inferior. Unless of course you enjoy watching Aether Vials get dropped on turn one or getting hit with Duress/Thoughtseize on turn one, royally fucking you over.

[Hanni]

You state how inferior everything else is compared to Mental Misstep, but clearly, you have no idea what this deck actually needs.

Mental Misstep is a strong card to be sure, but what it does is counter 1cc spells. The only 1cc spell that this deck has ever had a problem with is AEther Vial. Unfortunately, I'm not about to butcher my deck to run a free counterspell to answer 1 problem card.

I've been designing this deck to beat Merfolk for a long time now, and the way that it is does so is to simply disregard Vial, with spells like Shackles and Peacekeeper. Sure, my opponent can resolve a Vial and start playing uncounterable guys, but if they can't swing into me, it becomes irrelevant.

By the way, Mental Misstep is only good against a turn 1 Vial if it's in my opener. After that, it's a pretty shitty spell for the rest of the game. I'd much rather run Pithing Needle, which also hits Mutavault.

For the record, I could care less about turn 1 Thoughtseize's... to say that those royally fuck me over shows your complete lack of playtesting experience with this deck, or any other similar deck.

On a sidenote, if MM Merfolk were to start dominating every Top 8 (which is very doubtful), the deck could warp itself to include Mental Misstep to improve that matchup specifically by cutting spells like Oblivion Ring and such, which are less useful in that specific matchup. However, until that point, I'm not sacrificing my other matchups to deal with a matchup that this deck has already been designed to deal with.

[sarapfish]

I quickly got a set of those when it came out, till now I can't find space for it in this deck :laugh:

Also, I think the deck indeed is made capable of handling Merfolk's creatures already...sometimes too much. So far, I haven't seen the real urgency for 2 Path to Exiles and have yet to try using Kor Haven, another extra creature stopper.

[DragoFireheart]

You state how inferior everything else is compared to Mental Misstep, but clearly, you have no idea what this deck actually needs.

Mental Misstep is a strong card to be sure, but what it does is counter 1cc spells. The only 1cc spell that this deck has ever had a problem with is AEther Vial. Unfortunately, I'm not about to butcher my deck to run a free counterspell to answer 1 problem card.

-...which saw 16% representation with all the Merfolk decks in a recent tournament.




I've been designing this deck to beat Merfolk for a long time now, and the way that it is does so is to simply disregard Vial, with spells like Shackles and Peacekeeper. Sure, my opponent can resolve a Vial and start playing uncounterable guys, but if they can't swing into me, it becomes irrelevant.

-..and how will you remove their guys? Swords/Exiles will be hit by MMS, shackles has to resolve through their array of counters while they are dropping dudes off vial and keeping mana open to counter your stuff. Their manlands also invalidate shackles. Their Vials invalidate your Counterbalance for their dudes. I'm not seeing it.




By the way, Mental Misstep is only good against a turn 1 Vial if it's in my opener. After that, it's a pretty shitty spell for the rest of the game. I'd much rather run Pithing Needle, which also hits Mutavault.

-Umm, no. MMS stops:


Aether Vial
Cursecatcher
Mental Misstep
Spell Pierce


Furthermore, your own MMS can help protect against their MMS for:


Swords to Plowshares
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Path to Exile





For the record, I could care less about turn 1 Thoughtseize's... to say that those royally fuck me over shows your complete lack of playtesting experience with this deck, or any other similar deck.

-So my opinion is invalid because I didn't playtest? Tell me, what has your playtesting produced for win % VS Merfolk and Team America? Is it anything less than 50%? If you can't get at least 51%, then maybe to better reconsider what your "experience" has shown you.




On a sidenote, if MM Merfolk were to start dominating every Top 8 (which is very doubtful), the deck could warp itself to include Mental Misstep to improve that matchup specifically by cutting spells like Oblivion Ring and such, which are less useful in that specific matchup. However, until that point, I'm not sacrificing my other matchups to deal with a matchup that this deck has already been designed to deal with.

-I think you are underestimating how good MMS is against your deck. Your deck does not have the redundancy that zoo has. Zoo has so many 1cmc spells which do the same thing that it doesn't care about one being countered. However, many of your 1cmc are critical in either filtering your deck for cards you need or removal.

Hypothetically, if you WERE to include Mental Misstep, what would your deck list look like?

[Hanni]

-...which saw 16% representation with all the Merfolk decks in a recent tournament.


One recent tournament is enough to dictate what an etablished metagame looks like?

Vial seeing 16% is also not enough to warrant playing Mental Misstep in this deck. Aside from Vial, there are no other 1cc spells that I'm worried about seeing play. I don't run Spell Snare, and there are far more threatening 2cc spells for this deck to worry about. For what it's worth, Counterbalance is pretty good at answering 1cc spells too.


-..and how will you remove their guys? Swords/Exiles will be hit by MMS, shackles has to resolve through their array of counters while they are dropping dudes off vial and keeping mana open to counter your stuff. Their manlands also invalidate shackles. Their Vials invalidate your Counterbalance for their dudes. I'm not seeing it.


Again, you're lack of playtesting with this deck (in the case against Merfolk) is why you fail to grasp the matchup analysis. The 1cc removal is there to buy me time to get to the midgame, yes. If they have MMS for my 1cc removal, that makes it a little more difficult for me to get to the midgame, yes. Do I need to run my own MMS to counter theirs? No. Even if they hit my removal spells, I'm still running more 1cc removal than they are running MMS's, and I'd much rather my opponent's were cutting Spell Pierce's for MMS since MMS doesn't do shit about Shackles.

Shackles IS my trump for the Merfolk matchup, and by array of counters, you mean... 4 Force of Will? Daze is fairly easy to play around, and I still have my own 4 Force of Will to make sure it resolves.

How do their manlands invalidate Shackles? Last time I checked, I can still steal manlands...

If by invalidating Shackles, you mean Lord of Atlantis, then yes. That's also why I like to Swords them with Counterspell backup.

Obviously Counterbalance is bad against them if they land Vial. However, Counterbalance is just bad vs them in general, since by the time CounterTop is active, they already have guys on the board. CounterTop doesn't prevent Mutavault's from coming down, and so I tend to avoid Counterbalance in this matchup when I can (with Brainstorm and Top). Removal is the key to winning this matchup, which is why I board into more of it for games 2 and 3. How is this situation any different from any other CounterTop deck, though?


-Umm, no. MMS stops:

Aether Vial
Cursecatcher
Mental Misstep
Spell Pierce

Let me repeat myself again. Aside from countering a turn 1 AEther Vial, Mental Misstep is horrible in this matchup past the beginning of the game. Cursecatcher? I could care less, that's the least worrisome threat in their entire deck for me. Spell Pierce? I thought they were cutting those for Mental Missteps... and MMS vs MMS? Sure, that's a viable use for running my own MMS, except their MMS's don't counter my strongest bombs vs them (Shackles and Peacekeeper).


Furthermore, your own MMS can help protect against their MMS for:

Swords to Plowshares
Sensei's Divining Top
Brainstorm
Path to Exile

The MMS vs MMS war is really not that important. I run a stable manabase so that it is not essential for me to resolve an early game Brainstorm or Top, and while their MMS on one of my 1cc removal spells is a problem, it's not something that needs to be fixed by running my own MMS. I'll just topdeck another removal spell, since I do run a whole bunch of those, and try again.

I will contest that without MMS, and with them running MMS, my preboard win % goes down compared to before MMS got printed. However, I still dominate the postboard games. Why do I need to sacrifice my other matchups, by butchering my maindeck, to improve my preboard win % against one matchup? The metagame is still fresh off the MMS bandwagon. If Merfolk does start dominating, I'll simply go play Sligh/Zoo/Blue Zoo instead of this deck and crush the field.

Let me repeat my point: I'm not going to butcher my deck to improve one matchup at the cost of weakening the rest of my matchups. If that one matchup becomes such a dominant force in the metagame, I'll go play a different deck that has a much higher win % against it than this deck would with maindeck MMS.


-So my opinion is invalid because I didn't playtest? Tell me, what has your playtesting produced for win % VS Merfolk and Team America? Is it anything less than 50%? If you can't get at least 51%, then maybe to better reconsider what your "experience" has shown you.


Read the primer for my matchup analysis against Merfolk. I think there's also some discussion about my Team America matchup on either page 1 or page 2 (or both) of this thread.


-I think you are underestimating how good MMS is against your deck. Your deck does not have the redundancy that zoo has. Zoo has so many 1cmc spells which do the same thing that it doesn't care about one being countered. However, many of your 1cmc are critical in either filtering your deck for cards you need or removal.


My deck most certainly has the redunancy that Zoo has. Maybe not redundancy in 1 drops, or redundancy in smashing face, but it has redundancy in removal and redundancy in countermagic. If they counter one of my 1cc spells, I'm just going to cast another spell. The only decks that are going to pose a serious problem with Mental Misstep are the decks that are going to beat my face in before I can start dropping midgame bombs, which is limited to Zoo and Merfolk (with a Vial opener).

The other tempo aggro/control decks, like Team America and New Horizons, spend the early game playing disruption, and then finally drop a bomb in the midgame. Those matchups are perfectly fine matchups for me, with or without them running Mental Misstep. Hell, I'd rather they were running Mental Misstep than Spell Pierce, since Mental Misstep doesn't counter my bombs and Spell Pierce usually will. As far as I know, most people have been cutting Spell Pierce for Mental Misstep, right?


Hypothetically, if you WERE to include Mental Misstep, what would your deck list look like?

If you read my post a few posts back, the deck would eventually warp itself into a Supreme Blue shell, going with Tarmogoyf over Elspeth for Counterbalance curve reasons, and thusly is no longer CounterTop Superfriends. There's already a thread for Supreme Blue in the DTB section (CounterTop), so that discussion would be better spent in that thread.

EDIT: Oops. I just realized the "warping into Supreme Blue" was also because of Factory + Standstill. If I was going to just do a straight port of Mental Misstep and nothing else, I could cut 2 Path to Exile and 2 Oblivion Ring for 4 Mental Misstep. My removal density dips too low though, so unless my opponent is running alot of 1cc creatures, that's only improving the matchups where Mental Misstep would get alot of mileage. Overall, it's a much worse configuration.

[DragoFireheart]

One recent tournament is enough to dictate what an etablished metagame looks like?

Vial seeing 16% is also not enough to warrant playing Mental Misstep in this deck. Aside from Vial, there are no other 1cc spells that I'm worried about seeing play. I don't run Spell Snare, and there are far more threatening 2cc spells for this deck to worry about. For what it's worth, Counterbalance is pretty good at answering 1cc spells too.

- My spider senses tell me Merfolk is going to start appearing a great deal more. Their matchup with Goblins is not bad anymore and they only really suffer to Zoo.




Again, you're lack of playtesting with this deck (in the case against Merfolk) is why you fail to grasp the matchup analysis.

- My lack of playtesting shouldn't invalidate the arguments I present.



The 1cc removal is there to buy me time to get to the midgame, yes. If they have MMS for my 1cc removal, that makes it a little more difficult for me to get to the midgame, yes. Do I need to run my own MMS to counter theirs? No. Even if they hit my removal spells, I'm still running more 1cc removal than they are running MMS's, and I'd much rather my opponent's were cutting Spell Pierce's for MMS since MMS doesn't do shit about Shackles.

Shackles IS my trump for the Merfolk matchup, and by array of counters, you mean... 4 Force of Will? Daze is fairly easy to play around, and I still have my own 4 Force of Will to make sure it resolves.

-Some lists are maining Spell Pierce ith Daze and MMS and FoW. Regardless, they still have 2 counters for your one. If you try to protect your Shackles, with FoW against theirs, they still have Dazes and cursecatchers to try and stop yours.



How do their manlands invalidate Shackles? Last time I checked, I can still steal manlands...

- I think once the manland turns back into a land, Shackles loses control over it. Don't quote me on that.



If by invalidating Shackles, you mean Lord of Atlantis, then yes. That's also why I like to Swords them with Counterspell backup.

- That's the point MMS would become relevant. They use it to protect their Lords.



Obviously Counterbalance is bad against them if they land Vial. However, Counterbalance is just bad vs them in general, since by the time CounterTop is active, they already have guys on the board. CounterTop doesn't prevent Mutavault's from coming down, and so I tend to avoid Counterbalance in this matchup when I can (with Brainstorm and Top). Removal is the key to winning this matchup, which is why I board into more of it for games 2 and 3. How is this situation any different from any other CounterTop deck, though?

-It's not, I just thought you were claiming that THIS CounterTop deck was an exception.



Let me repeat myself again. Aside from countering a turn 1 AEther Vial, Mental Misstep is horrible in this matchup past the beginning of the game. Cursecatcher? I could care less, that's the least worrisome threat in their entire deck for me. Spell Pierce? I thought they were cutting those for Mental Missteps... and MMS vs MMS? Sure, that's a viable use for running my own MMS, except their MMS's don't counter my strongest bombs vs them (Shackles and Peacekeeper).

The MMS vs MMS war is really not that important. I run a stable manabase so that it is not essential for me to resolve an early game Brainstorm or Top, and while their MMS on one of my 1cc removal spells is a problem, it's not something that needs to be fixed by running my own MMS. I'll just topdeck another removal spell, since I do run a whole bunch of those, and try again.

- Alright, I'll conceed that point. You do have a very stable manabase, which could be enough to ignore some of their wastelands and not care too much about Brainstorm since your dekc is either fliter, removal, or bomb.



I will contest that without MMS, and with them running MMS, my preboard win % goes down compared to before MMS got printed. However, I still dominate the postboard games. Why do I need to sacrifice my other matchups, by butchering my maindeck, to improve my preboard win % against one matchup? The metagame is still fresh off the MMS bandwagon. If Merfolk does start dominating, I'll simply go play Sligh/Zoo/Blue Zoo instead of this deck and crush the field.

Let me repeat my point: I'm not going to butcher my deck to improve one matchup at the cost of weakening the rest of my matchups. If that one matchup becomes such a dominant force in the metagame, I'll go play a different deck that has a much higher win % against it than this deck would with maindeck MMS.


Read the primer for my matchup analysis against Merfolk. I think there's also some discussion about my Team America matchup on either page 1 or page 2 (or both) of this thread.

-Alright.







My deck most certainly has the redunancy that Zoo has. Maybe not redundancy in 1 drops, or redundancy in smashing face, but it has redundancy in removal and redundancy in countermagic. If they counter one of my 1cc spells, I'm just going to cast another spell. The only decks that are going to pose a serious problem with Mental Misstep are the decks that are going to beat my face in before I can start dropping midgame bombs, which is limited to Zoo and Merfolk (with a Vial opener).

The other tempo aggro/control decks, like Team America and New Horizons, spend the early game playing disruption, and then finally drop a bomb in the midgame. Those matchups are perfectly fine matchups for me, with or without them running Mental Misstep. Hell, I'd rather they were running Mental Misstep than Spell Pierce, since Mental Misstep doesn't counter my bombs and Spell Pierce usually will. As far as I know, most people have been cutting Spell Pierce for Mental Misstep, right?

That is correct. I was simply arguing that Team American will just rip that bomb out of your hand, that's all.




If you read my post a few posts back, the deck would eventually warp itself into a Supreme Blue shell, going with Tarmogoyf over Elspeth for Counterbalance curve reasons, and thusly is no longer CounterTop Superfriends. There's already a thread for Supreme Blue in the DTB section (CounterTop), so that discussion would be better spent in that thread.

EDIT: Oops. I just realized the "warping into Supreme Blue" was also because of Factory + Standstill. If I was going to just do a straight port of Mental Misstep and nothing else, I could cut 2 Path to Exile and 2 Oblivion Ring for 4 Mental Misstep. My removal density dips too low though, so unless my opponent is running alot of 1cc creatures, that's only improving the matchups where Mental Misstep would get alot of mileage. Overall, it's a much worse configuration.


Do you feel Supreme Blue is worth using in a field full of Merfolk?

Also, if one does not have access to Shackles, are there any substitutes for the card? Sower of Temptation? Or are the Shackles irreplaceable in this deck? I have nearly every card for this deck minus shackles.

How does this deck handle Landstill decks running MMS?

[Jackehehe]

I'm also interested in how well this deck performs vs landstill, I havent faced many on MWS. As a general rule though, I reckon, the longer the game progresses the better for us. I do think that in the control mirror, countertop should win. I guess your signature would agree with me.

As for manlands, yes, they actually do stay within your control. Pretty amazing, it only requires the permament to be creature upon resolution. So yeah, essentially, shackles can be helpful vs landstill.

[DragoFireheart]

As for manlands, yes, they actually do stay within your control. Pretty amazing, it only requires the permament to be creature upon resolution. So yeah, essentially, shackles can be helpful vs landstill.

I though the effect ended once the manland became a land again. Do you have a rules quote for that?

[Hanni]

-Some lists are maining Spell Pierce ith Daze and MMS and FoW. Regardless, they still have 2 counters for your one. If you try to protect your Shackles, with FoW against theirs, they still have Dazes and cursecatchers to try and stop yours.

Cursecatcher's affect instants and sorceries only. Daze is very easy to play around when you run one of the most stable manabases in Legacy. Again, unless they have Spell Pierce, it's usually my 4 FoW vs their 4 FoW, and I'll play that battle all day long.


Do you feel Supreme Blue is worth using in a field full of Merfolk?

Also, if one does not have access to Shackles, are there any substitutes for the card? Sower of Temptation? Or are the Shackles irreplaceable in this deck? I have nearly every card for this deck minus shackles.

How does this deck handle Landstill decks running MMS?


In a field full of Merfolk, I wouldn't play Supreme Blue. You lose access to Peacekeeper when you run aggro yourself, which is hands down, the best sideboard answer to Merfolk ever. Grim Lavamancer is good too, but he suffers from being 1cc to their MMS and the fact that the graveyard is not unlimited in resources.

If the format stays a format full of Merfolk, I'll be playing Blue Zoo.

There is really no replacement in my maindeck for Shackles. Shackles is great against every single aggro matchup, and drastically shores up my Vial Aggro matchups. They are pretty much irreplaceable, but you could always swap to some other mass removal spell for a temporary budget concern (EE, WoG, etc).

I haven't had a chance to play against Landstill decks playing MMS yet, but I would assume the matchup stays favorable. CounterTop owns the mirror, and my 1 drops are much less valuable than my other spells (aside from Top). Counterspell is a much stronger countermagic spell in this matchup, and I'm running a full playset vs the 2-3 that I see most Landstill lists running. However... I'm not sure about this matchup, cause I have yet to play against it.

[DragoFireheart]

Cursecatcher's affect instants and sorceries only. Daze is very easy to play around when you run one of the most stable manabases in Legacy. Again, unless they have Spell Pierce, it's usually my 4 FoW vs their 4 FoW, and I'll play that battle all day long.



No no, I meant when they go to try and counter your shackles and you then FoW it, they have Cursecatcher and Daze to try and stop your FoW.

[Jackehehe]

I though the effect ended once the manland became a land again. Do you have a rules quote for that?

I do (kinda)

From the gatherer: "The creature's power and the number of Islands you control matter only when the ability is activated and resolved. After that, only the fact that Vedalken Shackles remains tapped matters. You maintain control even if it stops being a creature."

also: 611.2a A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability lasts as long as stated by the spell or ability creating it (such as "until end of turn"). If no duration is stated, it lasts until the end of the game.

hope this helps. Yes, shackles is that amazing

[DragoFireheart]

That's pretty fucking sick.

[Jackehehe]

So... I've been having troubles with countertop mirror as of lately. Can you guys guess why?

They have mental misstep, we dont. from what I've experienced, the mirror is pretty much about who sets up countertop lock first, them having misstep obviously tilts this in their favour. We "should" have the end-game in our favour but thing is, all our counterspells doesnt matter when they clearly have a massive advantage at setting up the softlock.

what are people's experiences dealing with countertop decks with mm? sometimes it feels like they are running 8 tops vs ours 4

[DragoFireheart]

So... I've been having troubles with countertop mirror as of lately. Can you guys guess why?

They have mental misstep, we dont. from what I've experienced, the mirror is pretty much about who sets up countertop lock first, them having misstep obviously tilts this in their favour. We "should" have the end-game in our favour but thing is, all our counterspells doesnt matter when they clearly have a massive advantage at setting up the softlock.

what are people's experiences dealing with countertop decks with mm? sometimes it feels like they are running 8 tops vs ours 4


I propose a solution to your problem.

U/W Countertop Superfriends with Mental Misstep

Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven

Creatures (0)

Spells (38)

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Journey to Nowhere
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Sideboard (15)
2 Aura of Silence
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Peacekeeper
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle


I'm currently testing Ensnaring Bridge now that the list doesn't have Predict as it is very good versus Merfolk. I took out PTE for Journey to Nowhere to maintain 10 cmc of 2 cards for CounterTop. They are slightly worse but act as another way to deal with giant tentacle monsters and help perfect the mana curve. I'm also testing all Jace over Jace/Elspeth split.

Sorry Hanni, but I feel that Predict is less important than having Mental Misstep to protect our countertop combo in the mirror. Between fighting the mirror and having an out versus Aether Vial on turn 1, I feel that MMS is needed.

[melie]

I propose a solution to your problem.

U/W Countertop Superfriends with Mental Misstep

Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven

Creatures (0)

Spells (38)

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Journey to Nowhere
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Sideboard (15)
2 Aura of Silence
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Peacekeeper
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle


I'm currently testing Ensnaring Bridge now that the list doesn't have Predict as it is very good versus Merfolk. I took out PTE for Journey to Nowhere to maintain 10 cmc of 2 cards for CounterTop. They are slightly worse but act as another way to deal with giant tentacle monsters and help perfect the mana curve. I'm also testing all Jace over Jace/Elspeth split.

Sorry Hanni, but I feel that Predict is less important than having Mental Misstep to protect our countertop combo in the mirror. Between fighting the mirror and having an out versus Aether Vial on turn 1, I feel that MMS is needed.

I actually agree on this point (if the meta will be heavy aggro). I've never liked Predict anyways. It's not that I think it's bad, I just think it's unnecessary and can better be replaced by a card that actually does something. Like I said before, with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Top & 2 Jace I don't think this deck really needs actuall card drawing. The only thing I would change is -1 Jace, -1 Ensnaring Bridge, +2 Elspeth. As another option in adition to the previous changes; -1 Journey or Oblivion Ring +1 Enlightened Tutor. I've posted all my thoughts on the awesomeness of ETutor a couple of posts ago. I think Journey to Nowhere is pretty janky in Legacy but I can't find another good 2cc card to fill that slot either..


EDIT :: Just thought about something.. If Vial really is that big of a problem, why don't just play Engineered Explosives?? This can actually get you x > 1 for ones and doesn't suck later in the game + is better against a wide variety of other stuff. It also dodges MMS pretty nice. The fact that it doesn't counter Duress & Thoughtseize doesn't botter me. This deck is very resilient against discard. It is not that good against top but you can always hit their Counterbalance with it before playing your own (blowing up a goyf in the progress). It is much worse against 1st turn Lacky though (when on the draw) but for that you have your Swords anyway. And of course it gives you maindeck outs against Empty the Warrens. If you would go the EE route you also have to make some curve adjustments of course and swap out Kor Haven for Academy Ruins.

EDIT2 :: Or Powder Keg? It has CC2 and even blows up animated Mutavaults. Hmm.. I know what I'm going to test in the Predict slot.. :p

[DragoFireheart]

EDIT :: Just thought about something.. If Vial really is that big of a problem, why don't just play Engineered Explosives?? This can actually get you x > 1 for ones and doesn't suck later in the game + is better against a wide variety of other stuff. It also dodges MMS pretty nice. The fact that it doesn't counter Duress & Thoughtseize doesn't botter me. This deck is very resilient against discard. It is not that good against top but you can always hit their Counterbalance with it before playing your own (blowing up a goyf in the progress). It is much worse against 1st turn Lacky though (when on the draw) but for that you have your Swords anyway. And of course it gives you maindeck outs against Empty the Warrens. If you would go the EE route you also have to make some curve adjustments of course and swap out Kor Haven for Academy Ruins.

EDIT2 :: Or Powder Keg? It even has CC2! Hmm.. I know what I'm going to test in the Predict slot.. :p

Powder Keg is too limited and janky. Use Ratchet Bomb if you are going to test anything. Anyways, these things also risk blowing up you own Tops and Counterbalances, hence why they are not played.

[melie]

Powder Keg is too limited and janky. Use Ratchet Bomb if you are going to test anything. Anyways, these things also risk blowing up you own Tops and Counterbalances, hence why they are not played.

You are right about Ratchet Bomb beëing better. I totally blanked out on that one (haven't played 1 game of standard since Time Spiral). But I'm not that sure about your statement of them being to limited and janky when you talk purely in the context of destroying 1CC drops. I'm going to test it out this week and let you all know.

By the way, somebody who blows up his own Top with a Ratchet Bomb or Powder Keg should probably take up Pokémon..

[DragoFireheart]

You are right about Ratchet Bomb beëing better. I totally blanked out on that one (haven't played 1 game of standard since Time Spiral). But I'm not that sure about your statement of them being to limited and janky when you talk purely in the context of destroying 1CC drops. I'm going to test it out this week and let you all know.

By the way, somebody who blows up his own Top with a Ratchet Bomb or Powder Keg should probably take up Pokémon..

lol true, but there are situations where blowing up 1cmc spells and being forced to hide the top can leave you open for them to play spells when you could have countered them. Also, you can't ever do cmc 2 or 3, less you hit your own stuff.


On a different matter, Ensnaring Bridge is stone cold nuts versus Merfolk. MMS and Cursecatcher can't touch it, which forces them to either force it or be screwed.


Edit: Or Daze it, but many lists are not even running Daze anymore.

[Donkey_Kongs]

This is my currently list including Mental Misstep. I´ve tested this version against friends with different decks and played a small tournament with 16 players (finished in second position). I know that isn´t very intensive testing, though I hope to get some constructive feedback


4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
6 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins / 1 Marsh Flats
(-20-)

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Engineered Eplosives
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
(-41-)


20 lands: So far 20 lands are fine for me. Brainstorm, Top and Predict help finding lands. I prefer flexibility / a wide range of cards and accept that sometimes I am lower on lands comparing to 21 lands. Maybe dependent on further testing I´ll add one land again.

Mental Misstep: I´ve read arguments pro and versus MM in best friends. According to my experience it´s a strong card improving the deck. In earIy game I could counter spells that Counterspell couldn´t and would be annoying like Mongoose, Stifle, Xantid Swarm…Before I´ve played Spell Pierce for MM which were also strong in my testing.

Ensnaring Bridge: could steal some games (versus Merfolk, Canadian, Reanimator). This is a card that isn´t expected and was preboard sometimes very strong. It´s easy to cast unlike Moat or Humility.

Engineered Explosives: I like the flexibility of the Swiss Knife and the possibility to generate card advantage. Moreover I frequently play against decks including Mongoose, Mother of Runes, Etched Champion, Vial.

Sideboard: is changing a lot. Currently I like Perish because of rising gw Maverick, Bant and *****. Meddling Mage is still amazing. Mostly I play 4 Mages^^



What do you think of my current version? Any suggestions or dislikes?

What would you play in sideboard against Landstill? In my meta the uw(x) version is more present than the version with Pernicious Deeds ;-)

[Jackehehe]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
5 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [MR] Island (2)
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [FNM] Counterspell
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [NE] Daze
2 [GTW] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [NPH] Mental Misstep

I've been having some success with this list as of lately. As you can see its pretty standard except for the 3 dazes instead of predict and of course the sideboard.

I'll start by explaining the dazes: The reason I think daze is warranted is simply because of mental misstep. Despite the author of this deck opinion about MM, I do think it hurts this deck quite a lot. Daze fills the same role as the plentiful of removal in this deck; it acts as protection for you to establish your early game. The plan was to include mental misstep in the maindeck for the same purpose but then the 2cc count drops too low. I know this deck is mana hungry, but between running only 1 colorless land and no wasteland at all, I do think this deck can handle daze.

I also think daze is a good option considering the rise of stoneblade decks. They have a very tight mana base and if we survive the aggro-aspect of their deck, we should be able to out-controll them with o-rings/ctop.

I dont think this deck is too hurt by excluding predict. Predict was probably the weakest slot and in my opinion it acts primarily (but not exclusively) as a win-more card.

I realize all my experiences are anecdotal and I haven't actually provided any concrete results. I really enjoy this deck though and I concede to the fact that my post is a rather obvious attempt at bumping this thread :P. I do think daze offers new ways of playing this deck and further strenghtes the early game which remains ever so important in legacy. Feel free to join the discussion either by praising or raising my deck!

N.B: sideboard is pretty much centered on my local meta which is infested with aggro such as goblins/zoo/folk.

[sarapfish]

For me, I've been liking predict the more I use it. The card advantage, fresh three for top, and more importantly, finding that solution when you needed it most. Looks lucky at times, yes...but it's thanks to Predict it increases my chances. :cool:

@Jack
Your aggro-filled meta may be the very reason why Daze has been working for you, which is probably the right choice. :smile:

For my games, I've been constantly looking at stabilizing my manabase first, so I probably won't use it for this type of deck. Predict to help ensure I have answers in hand seems more right.

[Hanni]

I haven't posted in here in a while, and while I posted my new U/W Control list in the Blade Control thread, it's completely different that the decklists being discussed there. I posted this in the SFM CounterTop thread in N&D, but that thread has no traffic whatsoever.

Anyway, I've upgraded from Superfriends to The Justice League:

U/W The Justice League

// Lands (21)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
7 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains

// Creatures (4)
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells (35)
2 [NPH] Batterskull
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [IA] Counterspell
3 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 2 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [6E] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

The deck now fits Mental Misstep. Since the deck now has to worry about 1cc spot removal spells hitting SFM, there are more uses for it than in the older list. Protecting my own Tops and StP's against Misstep is good. With less spot removal, it also helps handle Lackey and Nacatl. And of course, it hits opposing Top's, and Vial (public enemy #1).

SFM/Batterskull gives the deck an improved matchup against Merfolk, and to a lesser extent, Goblins. Considering these were the two most difficult matchups before, I feel like SFM/Batterskull is an improvement overall. The package can be easily boarded out for more removal against decks like G/W Maverick and such.

SFM itself has replaced the Predicts, since it also provides +1 CA, and the Missteps and Batterskulls replaced some removal.

[sarapfish]

@Hanni

Interesting. Adding more stuff that are reusable seems like a good upgrade...and added win condition too. :smile:

You've gone down to 21 lands though, any impact on manabase consistency?

Also, when relying on SFM/Batterskull, did shackles become less useful in the deck?

[Hanni]

I was still getting flooded with lands in the midgame fairly often, and I needed an extra spot (and I don't play 61 card decks), so I cut a land. No significant issues because of this at all. The fact that this deck has an incredibly stable manabase, i.e is very rarely set back by Wasteland, the fact this deck can dig for lands every turn via Top, and the fact that this deck is not nearly as mana hungry as oldschool control decks, makes 21 feel perfect to me.

Most lands the deck really needs is 6 to drop a Planeswalker and hold Counterspell mana open. I guess you could say 7, so it can hardcast a Batterskull with Counterspell mana open, but that's alot less frequent. More lands doesn't hurt, but this deck does want to draw business, too.

[sarapfish]

Great work! Hope we can get good tourney results to share here. :smile:

[sarapfish]

Mental Misstep is gone in Legacy land...time to adjust decks again :laugh:

[yutang]

Hows this on this deck with the Stoneforge package?

Manabase:
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn

1 Drop (13):
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile

2 Drop (11):
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell

3 Drops (5):
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Drops (4):
2 Jace 2.0
2 Elspeth 1.0

5 Drops (5):
4x Force of Will
1x Batterskull

The curve is maintained (basically swapping 1cc for a 5cc) and I think we are okay with cutting

-1 Path
-1 Shackles
-3 Predict

for the Stoneforge Package. Shackles is used for Vial decks, which Batterskull answers. Predict can be cut as Hanni discussed above. Sword of F&F is best for this deck, which is VERY mana hungry. Speaking of mana hungry, I kept the land count at 22 because we need every single land drop we need.

Then I cut the Orings for Cliques to keep the FOW blue count at 19 and our bodies already turn on the opponent's removal anyway.

Sideboard is to be worked on later

[yutang]

Okay did some playtesting with my above list and the maindeck is quite solid. Not been having many problems.

Countertop just beats Storm, Batterskull and removal and Shackles destroys aggro once I am stabilised.

I'm thinking of the following for my sideboard:

1 Path to Exile
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Aura of Silence
3 Peacekeeper
4 Meddling Mage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Surgical Extraction

The Sb is mostly designed to deal with my most problematic matchups - Merfolk (Jitte, Peacekeepers, Path), Show and Tell (Meddling Mage) and Dredge (GT hate).

I know DragoFireheart has discussed the red splash in his Counterblade Thread in N&D. I agree that REB and lavamancers are fantastic but not necessary. I believe that Meddling Mage and if required, Pierces, are sufficient to beat Show and Tell. The Lavamancers DO help against Merfolk though but the problem is - a basic Mountain is needed in the Side, eating up precious slots. More testing with the red splash is required

[sarapfish]

A stable manabase is one of this deck's strengths. Right now I'm more comfortable with 2 colors (UW), and sticking to a 22-land setup. :smile:

[Hanni]

The whole point of transforming from Superfriends (just the Planeswalkers) to The Justice League (Planeswalkers + SFM) was to further improve the Merfolk matchup.

Before SFM, the Merfolk matchup was a toss-up preboard depending on the draw (if I hit enough removal to get into a Shackles in time), and good postboard because of Peacekeeper in addition to Shackles.

With SFM, the Merfolk matchup became quite favorable (both pre and postboard). 4/2 SFM/Batterskull is incredibly strong against Merfolk, and the deck still has 3 Shackles.

If you're having problems with Merfolk, running more Peacekeeper's postboard is going to be more effective than splashing Red for Grim Lavamancer. Manabase stability is just as important in the Merfolk matchup as having enough removal.

As far as SNT decks are concerned, the matchup is not as bad as people seem to think. Postboard, Meddling Mage is really good against them, as is upping the 3cc spell count for Counterbalance. There's really no need to bring in Red for Pyroblast when Meddling Mage (and Spell Pierce's if you're meta has alot of SNT) is sufficient, without going into a third color.


A stable manabase is one of this deck's strengths. Right now I'm more comfortable with 2 colors (UW), and sticking to a 22-land setup.

I switched to a 21 land setup without the Kor Haven a while ago and it's been working beautifully.

Also, for what it's worth, The Justice League IS CounterBlade, except I haven't gotten around to retweaking the deck without Mental Misstep. The loss of Mental Misstep hurts a little, but won't change the fundamental gameplan any. I've been extremely busy with work and school lately so I haven't had time for Magic, and I likely won't have time until this semester is over. Calculus and Statistics give an assload of homework. =/

[DragoFireheart]

Also, for what it's worth, The Justice League IS CounterBlade, except I haven't gotten around to retweaking the deck without Mental Misstep. The loss of Mental Misstep hurts a little, but won't change the fundamental gameplan any. I've been extremely busy with work and school lately so I haven't had time for Magic, and I likely won't have time until this semester is over. Calculus and Statistics give an assload of homework. =/

- So should further discussion be held here or held at my CounterBlade topic?

The loss of Mental Misstep is a blessing and a curse. It's a bit harder to protect SFM, but in return our removal becomes much harder to stop. I think overall in this sort of deck it's a gain. I also like the idea of only having to use two colors: mana stability is important as we need mana to make SFM and CBT function properly and cast our bombs.

[Hanni]

- So should further discussion be held here or held at my CounterBlade topic?

The loss of Mental Misstep is a blessing and a curse. It's a bit harder to protect SFM, but in return our removal becomes much harder to stop. I think overall in this sort of deck it's a gain. I also like the idea of only having to use two colors: mana stability is important as we need mana to make SFM and CBT function properly and cast our bombs.


Up to you, but I won't be able to contribute much either way.

No Mental Misstep means our Top's will be resolving more frequently, which is alot more important than losing SFM to removal. Losing SFM to removal is still +1 CA, and Top is the best card in the deck that we absolutely want to resolve ASAP.

As far as our removal being harder to stop... that's relevant, but not nearly as much as resolving Top.

Also, without Mental Misstep, losing the ability to answer a turn 1 Vial without the CDA of FoW is a big loss, but this deck should still have a good Merfolk matchup. The Goblins matchup becomes more difficult though (was already an iffy matchup), so that's something that will definitely need addressed in the sideboard.

As far as the color splash goes, I'm sticking by U/W. All the tools necessary to handle the format are in those colors, and the stable manabase is what truly sets this deck apart from all of the other manland and multicolor control decks out there.

[yutang]

I haven't tested enough against Goblins with my list (found above). However, I can imagine the matchup to be quite difficult - Goblins cares not for the Countertop lock and Batterskull only slows them down.

Some possible sideboard cards are:
Blue Elemental Blast
Moat
Sphere of Law (which I think is better than Moat but way more narrow)
Ghostly Prison (better than Propaganda as it does not get hit by REB)

As for further discussion of the CounterBlade/Countertop Walker archetype - maybe this is for the mods to decide, I do not mind discussing in either thread too.

[Piceli89]

Today I made top8 at a little local tournament with my take on Countertop Superfriends. Been set 'till the day before to play Thopters, then ended sleeving up Elspeths and Shackles instead of Foundries because I feared the post-sideboard fragility given by such a heavy-ench/art- based control, plus disliking Foundry stuck in hand without SotMeek/ETutor for being a dead card in opening hand. I aimed to consistency. It's a UW shell at core with some cute adds and without the fancy, out-metaed cards (Oblivion Ring). Red appears with a very little splash only to pack some REBs and a single Blood Moon (well, they used to be 2) to exploit the solid manabase in the face of Landeed and tempo decks.

4 Strand
4 Tarn
5 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas

2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Elspeth, knight errant
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Daze

4 Swords to plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened tutor

cmc 1: 16
cmc 2: 9
cmc 3: 5
cmc 4: 4
cmc 5: 4

Sideboard:

2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
2 Meddling Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
1 Tormod's Crypt

1 Disenchant
1 Firespout
1 Wrath of God

---------------------------------

Daze appears to be quite unusual for this kind of deck, and I always have been a control conservatorist that refused to play a conditional counter that sets you behind on tempo. The reason behind this add is that I wanted a cc2 counter (for the CB curve) not as heavy as Counterspell, that could complement the lone 2 Snares as well as give additional punch in the fast matchups or when resolving crucial spells; the main win-conditions of this deck both cost 4, so they suck from Pierce and Daze pretty hard. Daze allows to bypass this. In general, it's very useful against tempo decks, too. I originally wanted to try Snapcaster Mage, but don't own them. (Stoneforge Mystic, on the other hand, to me has become completely obsolete, worth being cut out and left to Stoneblade or what remains of that archetype.)
Daze was fantastic almost every time I saw it though, especially in protecting turn 2 CB, stopping the first turn Dredge enabler, as well as countering opposing Jace. It being unexpected wins several games.
I'm thinking of keeping them in the maindeck.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Metagame, Dredge, Storm Combo, some CBTops and Zoos here and there.

round 1: Dragon Stompy 2-0
round 2: Countertop Thopter 2-0
round 3: Dredge 2-0
round 4: Dredge 1-2
round 5: Spiral Tide 2-0
round 6: ID

Top 8: Dredge 0-2


Not going to write a detailed report here (if you are interested I may, though), but my only losses were to Dredge in the swiss, basically hitting double Narcomoeba on turn 2 after a mull to 6 and me having Jace, Humility, Pyroblast, and EE, with Glacial Fortress and Volcanic on the board. I punt by playing EE at 1 to pop his Imp to not make him discard the returned Dredger, only to realize he has a Cabal and if I'm passing the turn, he's gonna sac the Imp on it. Missplay that probably wouldn't have changed things, though.

In the top8, I lose to Dredge again, this time to a pretty good pilot of the archetype (Kiska Ra on these pages). Pre-side it's just an uphill battle that consists in finding the lone Bridge or the Enlightened Tutor, protecting it from Therapies, reach 3 mana, cast it, hope not to topdeck your counters, protect it from Angel of Despair/Primus DReturned. Which is kinda hard because they can destroy your counter-tailored hand pretty fast with the Therapies, unless you hide a counter on top with Top or...leave a cmc4 on top with CB (lol).
Post-side, I just saw a Meddling Mage, which named Therapy and Elspeth came to help, but things were slowly dripping into shit anyways. He just outraced me with Ichorids and Zombies.

My thoughts are that a pure control like this needs a reliable way to lock that deck hard. Artifact-based answer such as Ensnaring Bridge are bad because Ancient Grudge is coming post-sideboard 90% of the times. Peacekeeper, although being good, is not in my opinion an adequate solution because 1) you'll have lost the first game almost ever, so you actually need a way to win, not to stall them out for X turns; you would just drag it to a 1-0 result. 2) you can win game 2 with it if they didn't board in responses, but Dredge uses to pack Darkblast in the side, so it's just a matter of dredging it in g3.
I agree that the angle of attack to pursue is making them unable to shut down their combat phase: many times I've found the Relic only when I had too much Zombies already staring me. Thus, I'm contemplating to add a single Propaganda to the sideboard. It bypasses Grudge and slows them down a lot without taking mana as Peacekeeper. You're free to save your mana to search the other stuff, dig for Relic, or set up a Jace for the victory. With Enlightened Tutor and Ensnaring Bridge, chances I'm finding one of those slightly increase. But bridge, as said, won't last a lot.
I think that a minimum of 4-5 "strong" slots should be devoted to the matchup. It's just that hard, and Meddling Mage alone just doesn't do the job. I boarded something like
-4 CB, -2 Snare, -1 Cspell, -1 Jace, -1 Shackles
+2 Pierce/Pyroblast, +2 Meddling, +2 Relic, +1 Tormod's, +1 Humility, +1 EE

But most of this stuff is just soft hate. Humility is pretty shit once they have a bunch of Zombies on the board and just slow; Pierce is conditional, Pyroblast just hits Study and the 1-2 BThroughs if they left them in.
I thought about playing a single Ravenous Trap, but I want cards that can be useful across other matchups. Propaganda can behave good against Belcher and Merfolk, too.
Any thoughts on the Ichorid matchup?

[Deck is pretty cool, had a lot of fun in feeling the control role. Liking its consistency and solidity, so I'm sticking to it and try to refine the list and the sideboard].

[sarapfish]

Daze can be quite amazing when people just think they're not there. It's also fun when people play around it when you don't have it. :laugh:

How is the Justice League / CounterBlade version going for you guys?

I still rely mostly on Jace+Elspeth for the win. Classic Superfriends style.

[Piceli89]

Format's just too combo-centric to play cc4 bombs as the only win-condition. And Stoneforge Mystic sucks in a Countertop shell, you're just giving up too much speed MM used to provide to protect her.
I'd suggest retooling the deck to accomodate some number of Vendilion Cliques and Snapcaster Mages (best replacement to cover the 2 drop. We all know that's CBT weakness, always has been), with Trinket Mage being either as a 1-of maindeck or as a sideboard bullet to grab some relevant stuff. Relic of Progenitus, for example, is a complete beast in this metagame and I'm currently running 2 maindeck. Its applications are really wide, considering Reanimator, TA and Canadian Thresh all stand as tier decks. Aside from the obvious "shrinking Goyf, Mongoose and prevent Stalker" stuff, Iit is good to prevent tempo decks to exploit Snapcaster Mage and screw our calculations on what to leave on top with Counterbalance. That card's too overplayed right now to ignore it.
Plus, it helps you having a shot against decks otherwise unbeatable from game one, like Dredge. A turn one or two Relic keeping one mana open always does help you in slowing them down so that you can reach four of five mana and begin dropping planeswalker and/or beating with Vendilion. Plus, not having them reaching 8 cards and DDD also enables Countertop as a working engine against them, to stop Imp and Therapies.

[gustha]

I top4'd a small tournament (40 ppl) in Padua a couple of days ago. I attended the tournament as a testing ground for my take on this archetype. I think it's very viable now. It sucks I can't call it landstill as I wish, but meh. What's in a name?

On the paper, this deck should:
-beat stoneblade
-beat reanimator
-beat ant and tide
-figth well against RUG/BUG
-fight well against punishing zoo
-play tight against maverick: preside it's 1x1, post side you bring in 5 wraths (+ you have 4 snappies
-lose horribly to dredge

Still didn't test against Sneak Show, Hive Mind, Merfolks. (Given that merfolk seems a bad choice, right now, between punishing fires and mavericks, i think UW is viable until people will stop playing stoneblade, which I hope they don't).

Here's the list:

// Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

// Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Path to Exile
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Enchantment
3 Counterbalance

// Artifact
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Land
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

// Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
2 Disenchant
1 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Firespout
3 Wrath of God
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Nothing fancy, a good and solid control deck. Some choices may seems weird. I did want a maindeck crucible, though it didn't serve me that much. It was just a good tutorable 3 drop to fill the curve. Enlightenend tutor, though is a card I personally just hate, worked well to fetch top, cb or crucible, and were good in combination with snappy to just shuffle the deck when i had no fetches at the ready. Sb is really plain. 7th sword should maybe become a 4th surgical though you rarely want to have more than 3. I'd miss a Blood Moon, to be honest.

However, here's a little repot.

R1: Reanimator
G1: We both mull to 6 and stare at each other for a couple of turns. On his side of the field a polluted delta for island, ponder. A b/g fetch. I'm still not sure if it's reanimator or BUG, but I lean towards reanimator. Entomb eot confirms that. Reanimate for leviathan, I respond with snappy with 0 mana avaliable. He looked a little perplex, and let the mage come in. I let reanimate resolve (no counters at all), and he goes to nine. On my turn I drop mishra's factory, and can't attack because of the leviathan. He draws and i clique, he forces and goes to 8, careful study bins archon (what a luck! i still have no forces). He attacks and I go to 12 (I fetched), I untap and draw snapcaster mage. I attack and he goes to 4. He untaps and plays animate dead, cast it targeting blazing archon. I cast snapcaster with 1 cart left in hand, flashback brainstorm, see wasteland force counterspell, put back my card and wasteland, then force his animate dead. He's dead with 6 dmgs on my board and him at 4, having only one blocker.

side in: 3 pierce 3 surgical 2 ire
out: 1 elspeth 1 tutor 1 crucible 2 spiga 2 jace

G2: He mulls to 5. Lando go. Land go. Go. Land top. Land thoughtseize, pierce. Land counterbalance, force force. Jace fateseals his lands away.
2-0
1-0

R2: Spring Tide
G1: He mulls to 6. Land candelabra. Land top. Land scroll rack. Land counterbalance. Force, force. GG.

side in: 3 pierce 2 disenchant 3 surgical
out: 1 cruci 6 spighe 1 jace

G2: I keep a 2 lander hand and never see the third. I have 3 pierce 2 snappyes and 1 countespell, it isn't enough.

G3: close match. I don't see cb, but i pierce all of his cantrips. Jace fateseals his lands away. I have 5 mana, a vendilion and a karakas untapped. He tries to combo off, and i cast snappy to surgical extraction high tide. he can't close the combo but brain freezes me for 27. He meditates, I beat with vendilion and snappy while jace goes to 11. I put him on 1 and unsummon snapcaster mage, because I have counterspell in the bin and I know his hand via jace. GG.
2-1
2-0

R3: Kuldotha MUD
G1: Ancient Tomb, Lightning Greaves. Wasteland on tomb. He doesn't see a land in like ten turns (he plays only 17, though). I'm too well positioned when he sees the land.

side in: 3 pierce 2 ire 1 firespout 2 disenchant
out: 3 counterbalance 2 vendilion 1 tutore 1 elspeth

G2: I decide to bring in wrath because he has plenty of creatures, and wrath >> trinisphere. Better than surgical extraction. He mulls to 6, crystal vein. I wasteland. He dropa another, and I think denial is not the best strategy in this game. I pass with snare open, but he drop trinisphere. Shit. I drop a land and he drops lodestone golem. I drop another land. He castss greaves again, but my hand is full of swords, i snare. He beats me down to 15. I drop another land and he casts a second golem, but i sword the first one. I drop my 5th land and sword is golem when kuldotha forgemaster comes in. I put into play my 6th land (wasteland) and feel confident i can force the next artifact he plays and take 3 from kuldotha and play elspeth the turn after. I plays mishra's factory. Oh, fck. He activates, but I sword the forgemaster with the ability on the stack. He plays metalworker, snappi + sword. Another dude: snappi + path. He taps out 12 mana and plays BLIGHSTEEL COLOSSUS!!! I play snappy and path! :tongue:
2-0
3-0

R4: manaless dredge
G1 & G2: my teammate. shit. I can't win.
0-2
3-1

R5:ubr studd!
G1: 4 stifle 4 confidant 4 bolts 4 daze 4 force 4 mancer 3 surgical extraction... and son on. Oh shit! Waste on tundra + surgical on tundra, then some daze.

side in: 3 surgical extraction 2 spell pierce
out; 2 counterspell, 1 elspeth, 1 tutor 1 jace

G2: he keeps his 7 and goes land delver, but I read the screw and waste his volcanic island + surgical extraction it. I path his delver when he beats me down to 12, and win via cbtop.

G3: he opens with land pithing needle, and I have double top in hand. I obviously force. I play an island and pass, fainting a spell snare. He plays is land and grim lavamancer. I play top to bait his force, which comes (he topdecked it). I pass, then play eot brainstorm to find land. I see a fetch, 3rd top and cb. I shuffle away the 3rd top and assemble cb, while he beats me down with mancer. I try tap mishra whenever i can, to let him attack me with mancer, instead of simply shooting me. I have like 15 out in the deck: 5 swords (1 went away for his confidant), 4 snappies, 2 jaces and some fetches.. I have double top in play and spin whenever I can. I finally find a fetch, fetch, spin top, find path, path mancer, go to 4 and win the game via stack control.
2-1
4-1

R6: Maverick
ID
4-1-1

TOP8: Punishing Zoo
G1: I cast like 6 swords in 6 turns, a couple of snappies beat him in the while. I assemble cbtop and counter elspeth with jace.

side: ?!?

G2: I don't se my 3rd land. He goes land hierarch, land kavu predator, land tarmo, land kavu. Wow!

G3: I read his screw and waste his taiga after he cast wild nacatl. he topdecks plateau. I let nacatl beat me down for awhile, I don't know what for. When I'm at 14, I finally wake up and sword it, while he's a little stucked on lands. His 2-drops get snared. His reliquaries get swordes or path via spells or flasbacks, counterspell gets rid of elspeth and occasionally of bloodbraid elf, while my on elspeth hits the table soon and starts to fill the board with soldier tokens. He has 0 cards in hand and I go for invincibility mode with force backup to ensure no creature gets punished by fire.

TOP4: manaless Dredge again
Again my teammate, again dredge, again 0-2. I'm glad we both made it to the top, and that top prizes remained in the team.

[sarapfish]

@gustha I missed out on your post. Anyways, interesting list and results.

Pretty amazing though, no shackles? Snapcaster has got to be your best friend then. How about putting shackles over the crucible? :)

[klaus]

@gustha I missed out on your post. Anyways, interesting list and results.

Pretty amazing though, no shackles? Snapcaster has got to be your best friend then. How about putting shackles over the crucible? :)

Definitely.

[yutang]

This is my most recent list - it has been testing well. Stoneblade with Counterbalance doesn't quite work out for various reasons so I went back to the old list.

I decided to splash red for REB and Blood Moon in the board. I pulled some ideas from the UWx Stoneblade thread (which was the deck I was playing before).

The mainboard is pretty much the same as Hanni's list in the OP. I replaced the Predicts with Snapcasters - they are awesome and are a solid replacement for Predict in my opinion. It maintains the Counterbalance curve too and allows for extra removal.

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Oblivion Ring
3 Vedalken Shackles

2 Elspeth
2 Jace 2.0

4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
5 Island
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
1 Kor Haven

Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
2 Flusterstorm

I'm pretty happy with the sideboard. I can't think of any matchups which I cannot handle or struggle significantly against. Dredge is tough but 4 GY hate in the side helps a lot.

I'm not too sure about the 3rd Shackles and I am curious about Spell Snare in this deck. But I'm unsure as to finding space for it. But this is just fine-tuning as this deck has been doing very well for me.

Any feedback re the above list?

[sarapfish]

@yutang: Why do you have a Karakas?

[yutang]

@yutang: Why do you have a Karakas?

Same reason why Stoneblade runs Karakas. Marginal utility against Reanimator/Cliques and partly because....I just have one. Would it make that much difference against Wasteland decks to replace it with a basic Plains?

[bum_man]

@Yutang: Mad Props on your list. I've been wanting to play a deck similar to this. I've been wanting to brew Tiagos and Counterbalance on the same deck, I wanted to include SFM's but design-wise I don't think it could happen.

Just a few questions, Off the bat, I thought of the Merfolk match-up, how has your testing against Folks? Does 6 or virtually 9 stps, 2 O rings, and 3 shackles cut it Game 1? or do you just come back stronger Game 2? Ever tried Firespouts instead of WoG or Shackles? I would think you chose WoG over Spouts for Thruns but Does the 1 turn delay compared to Firespouts matter in your testing against the faster decks like Merfolk, RUG, Mavericks, and Zoo?

I'll be sleeving up a similar list once I get Tiagos so I could get testing in for this. Just wanted your initial thoughts on your list regarding my points above. Thanks!

[sarapfish]

Same reason why Stoneblade runs Karakas. Marginal utility against Reanimator/Cliques and partly because....I just have one. Would it make that much difference against Wasteland decks to replace it with a basic Plains?

Oops my bad...not a user of it so I thought its mainly for returning own cliques. Pretty noob-ish I know. :laugh:

Hope you do well with your list! If you want to test some snares, maybe you can try:
-1 counterspell
-1 kor haven
+2 spell snare

[yutang]

@bum_man

Merfolk matchup has been pretty decent. It's not the best in the world due to the 4x Counterbalances being somewhat 'dead' in this MU but there is a lot of removal in the maindeck to alleviate things. Furthermore, the inclusion of Snapcaster lets me re-use spot removal (which has saved me countless times). As you noted, the removal DOES go a long way towards a good fighting chance in Game 1 especially with the inclusion of Snapcaster. However, the crazy nut Merfolk draws (where they have 1 of everything) WILL beat you, especially when you are holding dead cards such as Counterbalance (and Counterspell to a lesser extent) against them.

Postboard, the Counterbalances go out for more Path to Exiles and Red Elemental Blasts (which are insane against fish).

-4 Counterbalance
-1 Counterspell
+3 REB/Pyroblast
+2 Path to Exile

As you noted (and as Hanni also noted in the OP), Wraths are too slow against Fish. I tend to side in Wrath against Goblins, Thrun decks, Natural Order decks, Zoo and Maverick.

I do not feel that Firespout is necessary. It helps in the Zoo, Merfolk and Goblin MUs. We already beat Zoo with WoG and our maindeck. The Merfolk MU can be sufficiently handled by the REBs. The Goblin MU is a problem but siding out 4 Counterbalances for 2x Path and 2x Wrath is sufficient. I would prefer Wrath over Firespout because it lets us beat a resolved Progenitus, bunch of Goyfs/Knights in the Natural Order and Maverick MUs. In short, Firespout is a narrow answer to fewer decks whereas I prefer Wrath as a good general flexible answer to many decks in the format.

@sarapfish

Another trick could be using it against opposing Kiras to negate their first layer of protection before using Path/Swords on it. It also stops opposing Karakas (Death and Taxes). I believe the marginal utility offered by Karakas outweighs the dangers of it being Wastelanded and manascrewed.

Thank you for your suggestion re Spell Snares but I am very hesitant about getting rid of land in a deck which needs its land drops. I'm thinking about testing the following:
-1 Path to Exile
-1 Vedalken Shackles
-1 Counterspell
+3 Spell Snare

That would turn my curve into:
1cc: 15
2cc: 10
3cc: 4
4cc: 4
5cc: 4

The problem is the 2cc range is too low at the expense of the 1cc spells. I'll need to think more about this.

[gustha]

@gustha I missed out on your post. Anyways, interesting list and results.

Pretty amazing though, no shackles? Snapcaster has got to be your best friend then. How about putting shackles over the crucible? :)

What for? You already have 6+4 swords effects... shackles is really not needed and expensive... I'd try it over crucible, however. Though they serve a different function, i'd rarely had the chance to recur wasteland (but reutilizing fetch is always good, and shackles doesn't help here).

[sarapfish]

What for? You already have 6+4 swords effects... shackles is really not needed and expensive... I'd try it over crucible, however. Though they serve a different function, i'd rarely had the chance to recur wasteland (but reutilizing fetch is always good, and shackles doesn't help here).



I did want a maindeck crucible, though it didn't serve me that much. It was just a good tutorable 3 drop to fill the curve.

It was simply a suggestion after reading the above statement. In any case, your list did well and that is already proof of what works for you, plus it shows the deck being quite viable, which is good!

[yutang]

Just a question - how would this deck manage the Enchantress matchup?

[Hanni]

The best way to beat Merfolk is to sideboard in Peacekeeper.

[yutang]

The best way to beat Merfolk is to sideboard in Peacekeeper.

However, Peacekeeper is a somewhat narrow sideboard card - it is only useful against creature decks which run little removal. However, Merfolk runs Dismember nowadays, Dredge has Darkblast, etc etc. It's not the hard lock it used to be. Of course there is the argument that counters should be saved for protecting Peacekeeper. But that is negated by the need to counter to save yourself from losing before Peacekeeper online. Furthermore, counters are also required to ensure you resolve Jace in order to win. Lastly, I really dislike maintaining the 1W for Peacekeeper whilst your opponent is playing draw go. I believe the way to beat Merfolk is a ton of spot removal to stabilise the board (Swords, Paths, Shackles and Red Elemental Blasts). This is helped by the inclusion of Snapcaster which really helps us change this MU around.

Re my last post - a great sideboard card against Enchantress is Meddling Mage. That may take the spot of the 2x Flusterstorms, though I prefer at least a 3x of Meddling Mage in the SB.

[Hanni]

Peackeeper is still the best way to beat Merfolk. It doesn't have to be a hard lock, it just has to buy you enough time to survive the mid game. Besides, most lists with Dismember are running, what, 2-3?

Peacekeeper is the best tool against Merfolk.

Between early StP's and countermagic, you should have enough time to get a Peacekeeper and/or Shackles online. Once that happens, you can usually seal the game up. I've done a lot of playtesting against Merfolk, and Peacekeeper is the real deal vs them.

Of course, if you're maindecking SFM/Skull, you don't really need Peacekeeper. I'm not quite sure this deck needs the SFM/Skull plan anymore, though.

However, the Peacekeeper plan doesn't take into account Snapcaster, since I never got around to playtesting any lists with him. I suppose in a Snapcaster list, more 1cc spot removal like REB would probably work well enough, though in those cases I'd be bringing in another Shackles from the sideboard (for a total of 4 postboard). The temporary spot removal plan is difficult to use against Merfolk because they can easily out-threat your removal, and even a lonely Silvergill or Mutavault can still kill you in the midgame. Multiple Silvergills cast over the course of the game can be a problem, too (whether you kill them or not).

Anyway, I've been out of the game for a while so my experience may be a little outdated.

Actually, what brought me back to this thread was a different topic altogether...

Sorin, Lord of Innistrad.

Prior to going straight U/W for the better manabase, I had always played this deck as U/W/b. However, Vindicate alone was really not enough reason to stay in black, as Oblivion Ring was a fine replacement and the better manabase was much more important. Now, though...

I think Sorin is incredible. His +1 does what Elspeth's does, except the little guys have lifelink. In this deck, lifegain is really good. One of the main reasons why I started running SFM/Skull.

His second ability is not as good Elspeth's second ability, but his ultimate is way better. His second ability is still solid though; while not nearly as good as clocking an opponent (+3/+3 flying is still great in this format), his ability to double the lifelink potential on the 1/1 tokens is nice. The way I see it, Sorin is much more defensive than Elspeth, whereas Elspeth is more aggressive. In a SFM/Skull build, Elspeth is still the clearly better choice. In a build without SFM/Skull though... I think Sorin comes out on top.

Against Merfolk, without SFM/Skull, Sorin is better against both Goblins and Merfolk, which are the only two matchups which have ever really concerned me with this deck.

Going U/W/b opens back up the ability to run Vindicate. Vindicate syngergizes pretty well with Snapcaster Mage (this deck can easily get to 5 mana by the mid-late). Without the WW on Elspeth (and since I don't run WoG or Humility), this means I can splash the black in without sacrificing a whole lot from my manabase.

Here's a rough draft:

U/W/b Superfriends

// Lands (21)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
5 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures (2)
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells (35)
2 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [OD] Predict
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [AP] Vindicate
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard (11)
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

There's 4 available sideboard spaces. Since I haven't played in a while, I'm not sure what would be required in this metagame. Peacekeeper, Engineered Plague, Wrath of God, Humility/Moat, Spell Pierce, and Spell Snare seem like solid choices. Actually, Duress/Thoughtseize sound really good too.

I haven't playtested with Snapcaster, so it's possible that the deck needs more 1cc instants/sorceries to make better use of him, I don't know. Also, is 4 SCM overkill? Maybe like a 2/2 split of SCM and Predict or something?

Anyway, it's a rough draft to toss out some food for thought.

EDIT:
Just a question - how would this deck manage the Enchantress matchup?

An active CounterTop destroys Enchantress if you can assemble it in time. Force of Will and Counterspell help to buy the time you need to get it active. Once active, Jace TMS does a great job of sealing the game up.

Postboard, Meddling Mage is also really good. I bring in Aura of Silence too, plus if you're running Spell Pierce or discard or something, you can always bring that in too.

[sarapfish]

I think Snapcaster Mage is usually utilized in 4's, but for this deck that already has access to reusable counters and removal via Counterbalance and Shackles respectively, 3 seems alright as well.

I don't think its an overkill to run 4, since the card is indeed good to see early on.

[yutang]

I believe 3 is the right number with 22 lands. However, it can't hurt to test the 4th Snapcaster though I feel that 21 lands is a bit too risky.

I don't think Stoneforge is required in this deck at this stage.

Geist of St Traft

Also, I want to raise a potential card which this deck may have problems with: Geist of Saint Traft. We can't Swords, Path or Shackle it. We can't chump block with Elspeth because the Angel will end up killing her. The only outs are countering it (ReBs and Counterspell) or Wrath of God. What can we do against this card, which is starting to show up in UWx Blade lists as a card for the control mirror.

I prefer my lists to be able to handle every deck/card between its 75 cards and the presence of a card which I can't beat is annoying for me.

Re the black splash raised by Hanni:

I don't like it. You are adding black just for
1) Vindicate in the MD
2) Sorin, Lord of Innistrad in the MD
3) Sideboard cards such as Duress, Perish, Engineered Plague

I will address each of these points

1) Vindicate is a great card. But as it is unlikely that we will be nuking lands because we are control and not tempo. The exception would be a situation where there are enemy utility lands such as Riptide, Academy Ruins which are to be destroyed. In that case, we may be better served by Blood Moon in the side from the red splash. O-ring provides essentially the same effect. The only downside is Qasali Pridemage or Disenchant hitting the O-ring. In my opinion, this is not enough to make me shift towards black.

2) Sorin 2.0 - the new poster child of Innistrad. There is no doubt he will be a good planeswalker but the question is whether he fits in this deck. I believe Sorin 2.0 will see a home in a Deadguy Ale brew with tokens rather than take Elspeth's spot in Countertop Walker. Hanni, you are correct in analysing his abilities but I believe testing is required in order to see whether he belongs here.

3) The biggest point against black is the almost uselessness of the splash for sideboard purposes in the current metagame. There is insufficient Green (apart from GW Maverick - where Wrath of God would suffice) for Perish. Tribal has disappeared to the point where 4x Engineered Plague is not worth it. Extirpate has been largely replaced by Surgical Extraction. Duress/Thoughtseize is not worth it when you have Flusterstorm in Blue.

I believe the red splash is infinitely better. It provides Red Elemental Blasts against Blue and Blood Moon against Tempo, Rock and GW Maverick running the Punishing Fires combo. Red Elemental Blasts are better against Merfolk than Engineered Plague. Black does not offer anything against blue (Hymn is too intensive for a splash).

All up, I don't believe a black splash is the way to go in the current metagame whereas red works.

[sarapfish]

Unequipped Geists can be stopped by Snapcaster Mage. Other than that, sideboard solutions can deal with it, such as Wrath of God, Moat, or Peacekeeper.

Alternative solution: Some use Phantasmal Image to handle legendary problems, but we probably need not go that far.

[sarapfish]

This might be a good sideboard card for the deck, except it stops Snapcaster's effect...

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127359&d=1326776672

[yutang]

This might be a good sideboard card for the deck, except it stops Snapcaster's effect...

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127359&d=1326776672

I totally agree this will be a significant sideboard card for this deck. I don't think it should replace Tormods and Relics completely - it is just another lock piece we can utilise before we wipe out their GY with hate later.

It addresses the Dredge matchup, which is arguably our worst MU. It shuts off GSZ and Natural Order which previously circumvented Counterbalance locks. In fact, I believe this card will allow us to see the comeback of Counterbalance style and more blue decks. This may necessitate the red splash for REB.

I believe the dissynergy with Snapcaster is still worth the effects of the card (or we can just side out Snapcaster and side in Cage).

A preliminary sideboard I am thinking of is:

3-4x REB effects
2-3x Cage (replacing one GY hate slot and the Blood Moons)
1x Tormod's Crypt/Relic
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Path to Exile
2x Wrath of God
2x Flusterstorm

However, I still really like the Blood moons in the side.

[sarapfish]

The wider hate range of the cage seems to merit about 3 SB spots. We can probably start out with 3 cages (plus a relic and/or crypt against Dredge), then adjust as necessary.

Splashing red also appears to be a good idea now, and REB's and Blood Moon seem like pretty solid choices. I think I'll try it out.

[yutang]

Here is a tournament report for a recent 11 person tournament in Sydney which I attended. I did pretty bad (going 1-3) with the UW version of this deck.

The metagame was:
3x Maverick decks with Punishing Fire
Dredge
Dragon Stompy (with werewolves instead)
RUG Show and Tell
RUG Threshold
Pox
Deadguy Ale
Goblins

The list which I brought was:

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Oblivion Ring
3 Vedalken Shackles

2 Elspeth
2 Jace 2.0

4 Force of Will

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
6 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven

Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
3 Flusterstorm

I expected Storm, Maverick, RUG and Dredge in the metagame.

Round 1 (RUG Show and Tell):

Game 1, he wins the die roll and goes for a GSZ for 0 off a Tropical Island. I put him on Bant, possibly Natural Order. I lead with Island and pass the turn. He casts Noble Hierarch and puts down a Tropical Island, ramping him up to 4 mana. In my turn, I put down Tundra and cast Swords to Plowshares on Hierarch (worried about him topdecking a Natural Order). In response, he casts Clique from his hand and ships my Oblivion Ring to the bottom. He beats me with Clique and my later attempt to flashback Swords with Snapcaster meets a Spell Pierce. I cast Elspeth and attempt to race his Clique by pumping Snapcaster whilst praying to draw removal. He casts Noble Hierarch and outclocks me by two turns with me on 2 and him on 7.

Game 2, I play and go -2 O-ring, +2 Path to Exile putting him on NO Bant. At this point, I’m wishing I had Red Elemental Blast. Looking back, I should have sided in Wrath of God, though this would not have helped anyway. He leads with Turn 1 GSZ for Arbor. I pass with an Island. He puts down an Island and beats me with Arbor bringing me down to 19. I put down a fetch and crack it for Tundra, going for Counterbalance which is promptly Dazed. During his turn, he brings out Show and Tell. I Force, he Forces back. Show and Tell resolves. I put down Shackles, he puts down Emrakul. I draw into a blank and his Emrakul annihilates my board, taking me down to 2. I topdeck a Karakas and send Emrakul back to his hand. Unfortunately, he puts down a land, GSZs for a Hierarch to give his Arbor exalted and beats for 2 for the win.

0-1

Round 2 (Werewolf Dragon Stompy guy who was really cool and friendly)

This guy played a Dragon Stompy deck where the small red guys were replaced by werewolves from Innistrad. I go into the match aware of what he was playing.

Game 1, I draw into a 7 without a Force and mulligan it to find a Force for a first turn Blood Moon or Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void. My mulligan doesn’t help it but I keep it, praying that he doesn’t have the nuts for the first hand. Unfortunately, he has the nuts and Simian Guide, City of Traitors into Trinisphere followed by next turn Magus of the Moon gives him the upper hand. Magus takes chunks of my life off until I flash in a Snapcaster to block Magus. I made a play error at this point and did not fetch with my Flooded Strand once Magus died. Second mainphase, he puts down Blood Moon and finishes me off later with Magus of the Moon whilst I am stuck without a basic Plains.

Game 2, I take out 2 Counterbalance for 2 Surgical Extraction. The reasoning was countering a Turn1 lockpiece and removing it would help. I have 2 Forces and a Counterspell in my opener. I put down Divining Top and pass. He goes first turn Amethyst of Thorns which I Force, exiling Force. I top and only find a basic Plains and do not have the UU for Counterspell. He lands a Blood Moon and follows it up with various werewolves afterwards. I remove a couple and land Shackles, but his Werewolves transform into the one which cannot be blocked by two creatures or more and I die.

0-2

Round 3 (Classic Canadian Thresh with Mongoose)

I knew this guy was running RUG, but wasn’t sure which variant it was. Last time I played him, he was running Next Level Thresh.

Game 1, we go back and forth whilst I play around Stifle. He plays Turn 1 Delver then Goyf, etc, I play removal but I end up getting stuck on 3 mana whilst holding Elspeth in hand. Counterbalance isn’t seen. I eventually die to a single Delver which he rides to victory. Attempts to remove the Delver with a subsequent Snapcaster results in him Dazing it to rob me of Flashback.

Game 2, I take out 2 O-ring for 2 Path to Exile. Wasn’t sure about the Wrath in case he had Thrun, but I left it in the SB anyway. Big mistake because he goes with a Turn 1, Nimble Mongoose, Turn 2 Nimble Mongoose. Fire and Ice takes out Snapcaster which tries to flash in and block a 1/1 Mongoose. I landed Counterbalance Top but it was too late. He reaches Threshold and Bolts me in response to Top. He points out a misplay where I could have flipped Counterbalance to counter the Bolt. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter because the two Threshed Mongeese kill me.

0-3

Round 4 (Deadguy Ale)

Game 1, I lock him out with Counterbalance/Top despite his Hymn resolving. I eventually dig into an Elspeth whilst keeping him locked down with 2cc and 3cc on top to counter Vindicates, Bob and Hymns. He takes too long to concede and we enter Game 2 with only 10 minutes left.

Game 2, I do no siding. I land a Counterbalance/Top lock but he lands a Jitte and a Nighthawk. before I assembled the lock. I keep this at bay with Kor Haven. I missflip when time is called and we have a few turns remaining and he lands Revoker naming Top. He Vindicates my Kor Haven and beats me down to 4 but we our allocated turns are up and it is a draw.

1-3

[sarapfish]

@yutang

We appreciate the report, thanks! Bad luck and missed plays aside, I think your deck had the chance to win the games you faced. Which deck won that tourney?

Anyways, for general discussion:

Predict vs. Snapcaster Mage
Granted that Snapcaster Mage is a good solid replacement for the Predicts' spot, but recently I noticed how Predict still gives good value to the deck, sometimes even more than the Mage, especially post-board. It helps draw stuff you need (lands or answers), and really becomes more powerful when you want to see more cards using top or working on the soft lock. The times you don't seem to need the extra draw (making it look useless), you're in pretty much good shape already.

Perhaps, going back to its roots, maybe Predict is still better for the deck? Or there can be room for both perhaps?

[yutang]

The tournament was eventually won by a split between the first player I played (RUG Show and Tell) and a Maverick player.

I still believe Snapcaster is better than Predict - it is typically played around the same time as Predict so at that point, we would have Brainstorm/Swords/Path in the graveyard. There would be greater flexibility in whether we want removal or digging.

Alternatively, we could cut a Counterspell and go for a 2-2 split of Predict/Snapcaster

[sarapfish]

I guess Snapcaster Mage earned the slots, and no need to share it with Predict I think (flashback Brainstorm will do its job as pointed out).

[rchinnock]

4 snapcaster mage
2 vendillion clique
3 spell snare
3 counterspell
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
4 jace the mindsculptor
1 elspeth, knight errant

4 wasteland
3 mishra's factory
4 tundra
4 flooded strand
4 misty rainforest
3 island
1 plains

[Hanni]

You know, there's really quite a few different ways to build this deck nowadays, with the way the meta has shifted and with the recent cards that have been released. I mean, the SFM list is still good. The oldschool U/W list is still good. The new age SCM lists are good. Both the black and red splashes are good. Lots of options.

I've been working on the U/W/b Snapcaster-based list a bit, and I keep changing things. I will likely continue to keep changing things. Snapcaster really changes the dynamics alot. I mean, the original concept was to use permanent reusable control sources like Shackles and Counterbalance to maintain control and gain incrimental card advantage. Snapcaster wants alot of instants and sorceries, which are one-time use.

Anyway, I'm trying something drastically different right now. Let me list the deck first, and explain:

U/W/b Superfriends

// Lands (21)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
4 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures (3)
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells (36)
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [AP] Vindicate

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [5E] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage

So one of the biggest things to note is the lack of Vedalken Shackles. I still think the card is awesome. It's definitely great against Merfolk. However, it seems like Merfolk is highly out of favor at the moment, and Shackles can be a bit slow to get going. I may still go back to Shackles, and do a 2/2 split with Vindicate, or cut an Elspeth or something. I'm not quite sure just yet. My rationale right now is that 6 1cc spot removal spells, 4 Vindicate, and 3 SCM should be enough of a removal package to keep the board clear of threats... especially with all of the other control elements like the countermagic and Planeswalkers.

What I do like about 4 Vindicate though, is that they are capable of dealing with all sorts of problematic noncreature permanents that I keep running into.

The other big thing to note is that I've upped the Planeswalker count to six, and added a new Superfriend. Both Elspeth and Sorin are great anti-aggro by spamming 1/1 tokens on the board, and both Planeswalkers play very well with eachother. Elspeth makes vanilla 1/1's, Sorin makes lifelinking 1/1's, Elspeth can put them in the air with +3/+3, and Sorin can pump the whole team +1/+0 permanently. Toss in the SCM's as even more bodies, and the deck can create a pretty defensive army to hold the ground down. If things get going well, Elspeth can make them all indestructible, and Sorin can Control Magic three enemy creatures (or Planeswalkers). Toss Jace in, and you have a pretty potent crew of Superfriends.

Also, because of Snapcaster Mage, I may need to revisit the Meddling Mages in the sideboard. They were ideal before, against combo, because it gave me a body to put a clock on with. With SCM and a larger Planeswalker count, the clock may not be as necessary, and something like Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, or discard would offer alot more synergy with SCM. I will need to test this a bit.

Anyway, that's all I have for now. I'll keep you guys posted on new developments after I've had a chance to test them.

EDIT: I'm also considering going to 3 Counterspells and 4 Snapcaster Mage's, but that will also need tested.

Actually... I'm going to try that change MD, and I'm going to try -2 Peackeeper -4 Meddling Mage, +2 Ghastly Demise +4 Flusterstorm for the sideboard, and see how that turns out.

[wh4tever]

Not missing Spell Snare?
Right now I am playing Uwb as well and my maindeck looks quite similar.
Except I am playing no walker at all and instead Thopter-Combo. Anyways, why u dont cut two walker and probably one Counterspell to add 3x Spellsnare.
6x cc4 playing "only" 21 lands seems a bit brave, particularly if there are a lot of Wastelands/Stifle around.

gl+hf

[catmint]

I never played countertop, but I do like a good control deck with Plainswalkers.

My biggest concern besides the land count (not wastelanded obv, but natural land drops + support top while doing other stuff) is the maverick matchup.

How do you approach it in terms of sideboard plan & overall strategy in the matchup pre- & post board?

Besides, how about some innocent blood in SB/MD versus mongoose/thrun and such ... or darkblast versus maverick?

[Hanni]

Planeswalkers vs Thopter Combo

This topic has been beaten to death. They are simply too different decks. Both are good, and both have their pros and cons. This deck will never be Thopter Control.

I personally prefer Plaenwalkers. The Thopter combo pieces are mostly dead by themselves, whereas each Planeswalker is a bomb on its own. Also, E Tutor is card disadvantage, regardless if it can lead to virtual CA. This deck thrives off of incrimental card advantage.

@ Spell Snare

I'm not opposed to it, but the design constraints of this deck limit some things. I do not need any more 1cc spells for my Counterbalance curve... I'm chock full already. I really cannot afford to skew my curve for it.Swords and Counterspell can answer 2cc stuff early game; Counterbalance and Vindicate can answer 2cc stuff in the midgame.

@ Land count

I can understand the criticisms for the 21 land count. In a control deck wanting to drop 4cc Planeswalkers, spin Top, cast Counterspells, etc... it is fairly mana hungry. However, it is important to find the right mix of lands and spells. Too many lands is just as bad as too few, since a flood will cause the deck to run out of gas. For me, even going 3c, 21 has been fine. You have to remember that this deck isn't running chaff like Factory and Wasteland, and it has 7 basics. Stifle/Waste decks can potentially be an issue depending on draws and how you play, but the only actual issue I've had is Nimble Mongoose, and not the mana denial.

Simply put, the manabase itself is incredibly stable. Sensei's Top being a constant Ponder (w/o the cantrip) goes a very long way to ensuring consistent land drops. Again, the deck needs to balance land and business. Would fitting 1-2 more land be a bad idea? Of course not. However, my list is really tight maintaining the Counterbalance curve, so I'm running 21. I have yet to run into serious issues unless I'm getting hit by Sinkholes and Smallpox's, etc. Just Stifle/Waste has not been enough to blow me out.

EDIT: Sorry that I didn't fully address all of the questions asked. I'm typing this up from my phone and it's rather difficult. I will answer everything better once I get home from work.

EDIT 2: Okay, I'm home from work.


Anyways, why u dont cut two walker and probably one Counterspell to add 3x Spellsnare.


That's a viable suggestion. The deck doesn't really need the two additional 4cc spells for the Counterbalance curve, and going down to 10 2cc is possible, albeit I try to not dip below 11.

However, I really want to stick with 6 Planeswalker's right now for testing purposes. I've always just run a 2/2 split of Elspeth and Jace, which has been effective, but I'd like to see what this deck does with a 2/2/2 split. I can see games where I drop an Elspeth in the face of 1-2 guys, follow it up with a Sorin next turn, and just ramp them up and blow the game out. I mean, the Planeswalker's are what really set this deck apart from the other similar decks like Blade Control and Countertop Thopters, so I might as well focus on that gameplan.


My biggest concern besides the land count (not wastelanded obv, but natural land drops + support top while doing other stuff) is the maverick matchup.

How do you approach it in terms of sideboard plan & overall strategy in the matchup pre- & post board?


The Maverick matchup has traditionally been one of this decks better matchups. Mother of Runes can be a pain, although I used to run 3 Shackles which easily dealt with it. Otherwise, Maverick is just a slow green white aggro deck, against a deck with a ton of creature removal spells and Counterbalance. I kill everything relevant and stabilize to the mid-late, they gas out, I gain some incrimental card advantage through Counterbalance(s), SCM's, and the Planeswalkers, and then win the lategame through card advantage and quality.

Postboard, the mass sweepers are extremely effective. I just approach it like I would any other slow aggro deck; manage my removal resources and countermagic on their threatening guys, taking small amounts of damage from the less threatening ones, until I can stabilize through Counterbalance/Planeswalkers/Snapcaster Mages. Postboard, I'd cut some Force of Will's for mass sweepers like Wrath of God.


Besides, how about some innocent blood in SB/MD versus mongoose/thrun and such ... or darkblast versus maverick?


Innocent Blood sounds awesome, I do not know how I forgot about that spell. I've run it on and off in the past in previous UWb lists. Such a great idea right now, considering the amount of Shroud and Hexproof guys seeing play. It's still good against decks like Zoo and Merfolk too, so there is really no reason to not sideboard some.

In fact, this is the sideboard I spent all day working on:

2 Wrath of God
2 Innocent Blood
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Spell Pierce
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle

With that sideboard, vs Maverick, I would cut Force of Will's for WoG and Innocent Blood. You could also switch something else for the Ghastly Demise, but I'm not sure what else I'd want to drop.

[sarapfish]

Just some thoughts:

Manabase
I think 21 lands is relatively safe provided that all those lands produce a color. The deck has lots of basics so wasteland isn't much of a concern. My 22nd land would still be Kor Haven, which I find as very useful utility.

Planeswalkers
The idea of a 3rd walker is good, after all it's where the deck finds its wins. I haven't tried Sorin Lord of Innistrad yet, but I'm kind of considering a single Gideon Jura. I know Legacy isn't its home, but given this particular control deck, he can be a good additional option to close out games, buy some time, clean the board or provide support for Jace or Elspeth.

On a less serious note, he can play the role of...Superman :laugh:

[Hanni]

Played a handful of games with the list above. Some things I want to say:

Superfriends mode is rediculous. Having any combination of two Planeswalker's in play at a time feels almost unstoppable. Alot of times, I control the gamestate until I feel comfortable to cast a Planeswalker, and then I drop one, next turn drop one, and the game spirals out of control from there.

Sorin + Elspeth is nasty. Two 1/1 tokens a turn builds up fast, regardless of opposing aggro. Once Sorin hits 7 counters, I can steal some guys (if they haven't been killed first). Once Elspeth hits 9 counters, I can spam out indestructible tokens. A few turns of nuttiness, and an Emblem courtesy of Sorin makes things even nuttier. Toss a 2/1 Lifelinker in the air for +3/+3 more, and yea. You get the idea.

Also, Snapcaster has been fantastic. The 2/1 body has actually been very relevant, often acting as a removal spell all on its own. Nothing's better than flashing in Snappy, flashing back a Swords, and killing two of the opponent's creatures for 3 mana in instant speed, with 1 card.

I've actually cut 1 Elspeth from my build (down to 5 Planeswalker's) to avoid flooding with too many top-heavy cards early, and added the 4th Snapcaster. I also made some minors tweaks to my sideboard.

Vindicate has also proven very useful. I really enjoy having a catch-all in the deck, and the fact that it still acts as spot removal against opposing creatures gives me plenty of removal density. Between 6 Plow effects, 4 Snapcaster, and 4 Vindicate, I can pretty much keep the board clear until I establish a CounterTop lock and/or go into Superfriends mode. I'm loving this deck right now. :smile:

[Water_Wizard]

Played a handful of games with the list above. Some things I want to say:

Superfriends mode is rediculous. Having any combination of two Planeswalker's in play at a time feels almost unstoppable. Alot of times, I control the gamestate until I feel comfortable to cast a Planeswalker...

Sorin + Elspeth is nasty. Two 1/1 tokens a turn builds up fast, regardless of opposing aggro. Once Sorin hits 7 counters, I can steal some guys (if they haven't been killed first). Once Elspeth hits 9 counters, I can spam out indestructible tokens. A few turns of nuttiness, and an Emblem courtesy of Sorin makes things even nuttier. Toss a 2/1 Lifelinker in the air for +3/+3 more, and yea. You get the idea.

I've actually cut 1 Elspeth from my build (down to 5 Planeswalker's) to avoid flooding with too many top-heavy cards early, and added the 4th Snapcaster. I also made some minors tweaks to my sideboard.

Thanks for the update. Do you mind sharing your sideboard tweaks? Has anyone tried to run this deck with Humility? I'm not sure if it's win-more, but given the synergy with Elspeth/Sorin, it seems hard not to try out. Obviously, with Humility, SCM's need to come out.

I'm cooking up a list that is a combination of Hanni's deck (listed above), traditional Counterbalance (with Enlightened Tutors) and this deck (I think the creators call it Shot in the Dark) http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44092

My current conundrum is two-fold.

First, artifacts/no-artifacts? With artifacts, we gain some acceleration, the ability to more fully abuse Enlightened Tutor, and Tezz, AOB (5/5's are sick with Humility on board).

Second, Humility vs. SCM. If you drop a Humility onboard, all the swords effects lose value, but Krosan Grip can really ruin your day.

My current pile is a mix of the following 4, and it's too confused and generally lacks focus/direction:
Superfriends (Jace, Tezz, Sorin, Elspeth)
Countertop
Thopter/Sword
ET Package (Humility, GY Hate, EE, etc.)

Other directions:
SCM Package (like Hanni has above)
Artifact Package (helps Tezz, AOB and adds some quickness with Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond - see Shot in the Dark above).

Has anyone ever run the Sorin/Elspeth Humility package? What I'm cooking looks very similar to Hanni's list above, except remove the SCM package (-4 SCM, -2 PTE, -4 Vindicate) and add +3 ET, +2 Humility, +3 lands, +1 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 ORing.
I would also like to add Thopter/Sword and Mishra's (also very good with Humility on board). In its present state, this deck is confused and his heading too many directions at once.

Thanks for the advice!

EDIT: I would like to abuse Humility. I can think of 3 "shells" in which do to it.
1. Superfriends (Sorin/Elspeth)
2. Artifacts (add superfriend Tezz - see Shot in the Dark decklist above).
3. Thopter/Sword (see appropriate thread).

Has anyone had any luck with Humility in the Superfriends shell? If so, please explain. Thank you!

[gustha]

Hanni, about Maverick. GSZ easily dodges counterbalance, and with no clock on the board, a resolved thrun @t4 (and that actually happens A LOT) is very difficult to beat. I played this some time ago:

// Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

// Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Path to Exile
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Enchantment
3 Counterbalance

// Artifact
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Land
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

// Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
2 Disenchant
1 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Firespout
3 Wrath of God
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

I'm considering cutting the crucible for a shackles, and also I may cut a spell snare for something. I know etutor is crap and i hate it, but it feels good in combination with counterbalance, and it behaved good last time i played it. I might consider adding a Sorin in the mix (-1 snare?), and switching firespouts for another wrath and another grave hate. (Considering grafdigger's cage.) Thoughts?

[Hanni]

Thrun can be a problem. Off of a GSZ, I do have 4 FoW as a 5cc to counter it with Counterbalance. This decks curve is fairly balanced in that regard, so an opponent casting GSZ doesn't always dodge it. Plus, if I see my opponent GSZ for 5, I know it means Thrun, so I'll try to Force or Counterspell if I can. In my current build, I have Elspeth and Sorin as outs to it. It can be tough maindeck, but I've had very good success against Maverick with this deck.

Postboard, I get 2 Innocent Blood and 2 Wrath of God, which are both answers to Thrun, and generally useful in the matchup as a whole.

[jjflipped]

Has anyone had any luck with Humility in the Superfriends shell? If so, please explain. Thank you!

Havent tested it yet, but humility and sorin seem EXTREMELY strong together. My issue with Humility is that you start to want to run factories, then standstil, then cut CBTop.

At least thats how it always ends up with me.

-Jon

[Jackehehe]

I've been toying around with Hanni's recent build for a while, I also instantly cut an elspeth. Six planeswalkers is simply too much heh as having 2 in your hand often means mulligan as well.

At first I was sceptical to whether this new build would be better than the older ones with shackles and SFM etc. I am still not sure which build is the best but I'm leaning to, with the current meta game, that the recent build is better. This is mainly because tribal decks have been on a decline, especially merfolks, which devalues vedalken shackles especially. Also, one thing that makes the new list so good is definatly, without a doubt, vindicate. Vindicate is a HUGE asset in this kind of deck I think as it helps in controll match ups, and vs creature decks in mid-late gmae (with plows/paths holding the front line early game)

I think the new list has huge potential. Black is such a good SB colour and discard + surgical extraction/extirpate can be devastating as well. The only thing that worries me is that the mana base is a bit mor unstable...

[Hanni]

Tom Martell's winning Esperblade list has inspired me to try out Lingering Souls in this deck. Souls is somewhat slow for an aggro/control deck, but would be right at home in a control shell like this one.

I really like how Souls compliments my Superfriends, making a bunch of chump blocks. On a clear board, they are a really nice clock. Between Snapcaster and Spirit tokens as additional beats to suppliment my Planeswalker's, I think it could work really well. Lingering Souls also has great synergy with Sorins second ability.

I'll post the list I will be trying out, when I get home from work.

[Koby]

I was talking with IBA at the Grand Prix and we both agreed that the current metagame is highly advantageous to a true control deck popping up. Even better that Planeswalker/Superfriends can really put on the thumbscrews to the 3 top decks (W/x Stoneblades and RUG tempo).

Starting with a shell that features Jace and Elspeth (UW) which is the best way to fill out the suite? Is it black for Sorin, or green for Garruk? Is Ajani Vengeant worth inclusion of red for extra removal (REB) and sweepers (Pyroclasm/Firespout)?

Ensnaring Bridge done great things for me in Thopters, and it synergies well with the PW plan. Is this a better or worse plan than SCM + infinite removal from white?

[Hanni]

I think Esper is the way to go right now. I've always preferred the black splash for this deck (although I was rocking straight U/W for a while). Except.. they have just printed two powerful new tools for this deck in favor of the black splash.

Sorin is much better than Elspeth in a dedicated control deck like this. The lifegain on the tokens is invaluable, and his ultimate is far more relevant than Elspeth's. His -2 ability is also useful, especially in a shell with SCM and Lingering Souls. As a control deck, the flying and pump from Elspeth was nice, but Sorin is a lot more defensive while still being able to apply an equal clock on a clean board.

Lingering Souls is the other addition that black has given this deck. I think the swarm of tokens is going to be a huge asset to this deck, giving it additional defensive capabilities while doubling over as a clock and win condition.

Also, SCM + pinpoint discard like Duress is extremely powerful in control mirrors, and equally good against combo decks. I'd rather rock discard in my board instead of REB's right now.

[gustha]

I still prefer a 1/1 split between Sorin and Elspeth. The reason is that Sorin is a little less difficult to kill, and I don't think messing up with the manabase is a good thing. KK, I may revisit the wastelands atm (Spiral Tide everywhere), but still I don't think I'm going to rely heavy on black as you are doing, Hanni. Martell's deck is not a control deck, we are. And we still have counterbalance, which means we can't really pursue the philosophy of tapout control (packing the deck with sorcery speed spells). Lingering soul is absolutely a beast in the control mirror and I'd play it if I saw thousands of control decks (or maybe not, I'd play the good ol' decree of justice isntead), AND raises the cc3 curve, which is always good. BUT it's not blue, its flashback requires commitment on the manabase, doesn't play handily with counterbalance's mana hungry engine. If, in those slots, I can choose to play 2 path and 2 vendilion clique, atm I think I'd stick with those.

[Hanni]

Well, Sorin is just as difficult on the manabase as Elspeth, for the most part. Hitting WB is not much different from hitting WW. Unless you're talking about playing a strictly U/W deck, which I've done in the past. Straight U/W has its advantages and disadvantages, but U/W/b was given some extremely strong tools lately that I feel should be taken advantage of.

I'm not really sure what makes Elspeth harder to kill. If you run Sorin out, you pump him to 4 loyalty. Both 4 and 5 loyalty is out of single Bolt range, and both die to double Bolt. The 1 extra loyalty that Elspeth gets could be relevant in cases where my opponent can push 4 damage through but not 5, but that seems somewhat corner-case.

I'm also not sure what you mean by tap-out control. I'm already playing the tap-out game with Planeswalker's, and Vindicate is also sorcery speed. In fact, Counterbalance itself is tap-out when you first cast it. If I have CounterTop in play, I'll just wait till I hit 4 mana to cast Souls, so that I can spin Top if I need to. On the flashback, I can hold open UU for Counterspell.

The fact is, Lingering Souls is really good against the top 3 decks right now, at least in a control shell like this. Against Maverick, it buys me the time I need to set up my dominating midgame, and it can also hold off a Thrun for a while. Against RUG Tempo, it gives me outs to Nimble Mongoose, and it can also keep an opponent off of Delver beats (as witnessed in the Martel vs Castor matchup). Against Stoneblade, it answers Clique's and SCM beats beautifully, it's rather impervious to 1-for-1 spot removal, and they assassinate opposing Jaces like no other.

Overall, Souls is a defensive card that can buy this deck alot of time, while also doubling over as a clock/win condition. I mean, older versions of this deck only had 4 Planeswalkers to win with. SCM + Souls + Planeswalker's gives the deck a very diverse angle of attack, with all of those win cons being extremely good at controlling the gamestate.

I can see how Clique would be in contest with Souls, since it's also 3 mana, and it also flies. Clique has a nice ETB disruptive ability, too. Flash makes it play alot better with the draw-go approach, for sure. What I like about Souls, though, is that it's defensive. Clique is typically bad at blocking, whereas Souls is amazing. What I like even more about Souls is its synergy with Sorin... I mean, it's like the two cards were purposely designed to be played together.

Anyway, here's the list I promised:

U/W/b Superfriends

// Lands (21)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
5 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures (3)
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells (36)
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
2 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [AP] Vindicate
1 [5E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [5E] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 [TE] Disenchant
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

This is just a starting list. I think the 1/1 split between maindeck and sideboard of Wrath of God is a good call right now. Wrath of God was horrible in a metagame dominated by Merfolk, but is fantastic in a metagame dominated by Maverick.

[Koby]

I think that the countersuite is a bit excessive for the metagame. You certainly don't need 4 Counterbalance (could run the 4th in the board), and having 3 Counterspell + 4 FoW is a bit overkill against the top three right now. You also aren't running any Snares which severely crimps on those decks as well by cutting off SFM, Goyf, Snapcaster, Pridemage, etc. Finally, a 3rd Jace seems like the best inclusion if nothing else than to win Jace-wars.

I would run EE at this point before I ran Vindicate, strictly to deal with Delver, Mongoose, and Mother of Runes. Bonus for hitting SFM + SCM + Jitte when they try to overload; and already being 3 colors you can occasionally pick off some Knights and Sword of X/Y too. The versatility and speed (turn 1 EE, turn 2 BOOM) makes EE more favorable in the early game compared to Vindicates guaranteed 1-for-1.

[Hanni]

Well, Snare is possible, but I've already explained many times why I don't run it.

The main reason is my Counterbalance curve. I'm already at 14 1cc spells, and I don't need any more. The Counterbalance curve is very limiting when it comes to design freedoms.

Secondly, alot of decks right now are building around Snare. RUG Tempo runs 4 spells in the whole deck that Snare hits (Tarmogoyf). Maverick has GSZ to grab guys like Gaddock Teeg, Qasali, Goyf, and Ooze. It's definitely a bomb against Stoneblade, hitting SFM and SCM, to be sure. I'd rather run pinpoint discard in that matchup though (which I bring out of the board).

Counterspell still hits 2cc spells, and so does Counterbalance. The difference being that both of those are much more versatile, and can counter other stuff as well.

I'd rather win a Jace war with Sorin, Souls, or Vindicate, to be honest. This is the one aspect of Elspeth that is better than Sorin for this deck, since she can fling a 4/4 flying token at a Jace. Although, between SCM, Clique, Souls, Sorin, and Vindicate... I'm comfortable dealing with opposing Jaces.

My problem with EE now is still the same as my problem with EE before. If I blow it at 2cc, it destroys my Counterbalances. At 1cc, it forces me to draw with my Top. I like that Vindicate is a catch-all. I can destroy a creature, an equipment, a problem enchantment... whatever, regardless of the cc, for a straight 3 mana. 6 1cc spot removal spells covers me just fine for Delvers, and I've got answers for Mongoose now. Mother of Runes can be a problem, true. Postboard Needles, Edicts, and Wrath of God aren't a bad answer, though. Vindicate also ups my 3cc curve, which seems to be extremely relevant right now, whereas EE does nothing to improve my Counterbalance curve.

I'm going to test my list first before I comment more, because I'd like some experience with Souls before I detail my thoughts any further.

[sarapfish]

@Hanni

Great work with the Sorin version of Superfriends. Hope your testing goes well. :smile:

Lingering Souls reminds me of Timely Reinforcements. Conditional to get benefits from, can produce 3 non-fliers, life-gain and at instant speed. Just wondering if you have it considered?


Here is the current list I've been trying out, basically still sticking to its roots and adding a 3rd walker:

U/W Superfriends

Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
7 Islands
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven

Spells (38)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Wrath of God
2 Predict
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon Jura

[Malakai]

Timely Reinforcemens is a Sorcery.

I've tried it. It can be okay, but most of the time I would have rather had basically any other card.

[Jackehehe]

I have a hard time understanding the merits of lingering souls. Where does it help? in what match up? I guess I could see the merits of running it vs aggro, but not really in the control MU. I mean, its sorcery speed, it costs three, and it supposedly replaces vindicate, which helps enormously in the control MU. I do think that our aggro match up is good enough already to not justify replacing vindicate but maybe thats just me. I dont know, but the card simply feels... redundant or something like that

[Hanni]

Maybe it would help to think of Souls as a mini-Elspeth. It costs 3 instead of 4, and puts out two 1/1 fliers instead of 1 vanilla token. If it gets countered or discarded, you can cast it again for two mana, and still get two 1/1 fliers. If neither spell is countered or discarded, Souls gives you four turns worth of Elspeth tokens that also have flying.

Souls can also be cast in multiples, and has great synergy with Sorin.

Token spamming is good against both aggro and control. Its good against aggro because it buys this deck a lot of time to get setup. Its good against control because they have a hard time dealing with swarms of tokens.

It also gives the deck a clock vs combo, which can be relevant.

[Anusien]

Lingering Souls is a harder to kill Delver that can also chump three times.

[Maëlig]

Maybe it would help to think of Souls as a mini-Elspeth


Lingering Souls is a harder to kill Delver that can also chump three times.

Lingering Souls is a progenitus with no protections and a smaller body but that can block flying creatures. Any more interesting card comparisons?

[sarapfish]

Timely Reinforcemens is a Sorcery.

I've tried it. It can be okay, but most of the time I would have rather had basically any other card.

Oh yeah, my bad..

Anyways, if token spawning is part of the plan, I think Hanni's version could use an Elspeth to go along with Sorin in Superfriends mode. Growing and indestructible tokens still sounds good.

[Erdvermampfa]

Let's be honest, Lingering Souls simply sucks in Legacy.

[Hanni]

Let's be honest, Lingering Souls simply sucks in Legacy.

Except, Lingering Souls has been literally owning people in playtesting. :)

My first experience with tokens was in the W/b Token Mania! deck I posted in the New and Developmental forum. I learned pretty quickly playing that deck, that tokens are some serious business in the format/metagame right now. Until the format adjusts, of course, if it ever does.

This deck was already using tokens before with Elspeth. Strengthening that element is a pretty good idea if you ask me.

Sorin is better than Elspeth for this deck, with or without Lingering Souls. Lifelink is more relevant than 1/1 vanillas. The flying + pump is nice, but Sorin's ultimate is alot better for this deck than Elspeth's ultimate.

Toss in Lingering Souls, which makes Sorin's second ability relevant. I keep saying this, but those two cards were meant to be played together.

I've cut the singleton Clique from the list I posted for the 4th Souls. 4 Souls 2 Sorin just feels right to me, at least for now.

(I'm going to edit my decklist above to include 4 Souls)

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Let's be honest, Lingering Souls simply sucks in Legacy.

Lingering Souls just won a Legacy GP...

[Hanni]

After more playtesting, I'm thinking the list I posted is the real deal.

Lingering Souls gives me the time I need to set up early, and gives me dominating board position mid-late, especially in combination with Sorin. Turning a board of 3+ 1/1's into 2/1's is great.

Casting Souls for four 2/1 fliers turns games around, even if my board was previously cleared and Sorin was dealt with.

I like having 6 3cc spells for Counterbalance, which seems like it's more and more relevant in the metagame. I like having Vindicate maindeck too, which has saved my ass numerous times now.

I'm up in the air with Path to Exile though... I'm thinking maybe, with the black splash, that this could become Ghastly Demise. Letting my opponent mana ramp on me early has backfired a few times... I've still been able to stabilize, but it was much harder. I'll need to test this more.

The singleton Wrath has been great. Don't ever really need it vs most matchups, but the token plan forces players to overcommit... then bam, massive card advantage and a clear board, +1 Sorin or flashback Souls, go.

Snapcaster Mage is the real deal too. I was never into the hype over him, where people were trying to stuff him into literally every deck with blue, but he's a great fit in here. It provides another body to chump early or go aggro later, while increasing the virtual density of my spells. The incrimental card advantage goes a long way in a deck like this.

Anyway, yea. I think this deck is well positioned for the format right now, it has tremendous amounts of power, and while it is slow to actually win, it gets the gamestate to where opponent's are hardpressed to get back into the game rather quickly.

[losada]

Anyway, here's the list I promised:

U/W/b Superfriends

// Lands (21)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
5 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures (3)
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells (36)
4 [DKA] Lingering Souls
2 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [AP] Vindicate
1 [5E] Wrath of God

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [5E] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 [TE] Disenchant
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

This is just a starting list. I think the 1/1 split between maindeck and sideboard of Wrath of God is a good call right now. Wrath of God was horrible in a metagame dominated by Merfolk, but is fantastic in a metagame dominated by Maverick.

Hanni, I like your list, just a couple of questions.

1) Have you tested Perish in SB? And Enginereed Explosives?
2) Don't you miss any duress effect in main?

[Hanni]

I have not tested Perish yet in the board. It could be good, but I like that Wrath of God hits everything. Mother of Runes is just as scary from Maverick as all of their green guys minus Thrun. Teeg stops it, but I have a bunch of spot removal to get rid of him unless he's protected by Moms. This is something I would need more testing against. I'm almost thinking that Needles would be strong in this matchup.

I don't think I need discard maindeck, but I love bringing it in against control.

On a sidenote, I'm actually trying to re-evaluate my recent changes. With Souls moving myy curve up, it may be time ro revisit my manabase. I think going up to 22 lands would help. I'm gonna cut the singleton Wrath from the MD for anotther land (and run 2 WoG in the board).

I'm gonna try this manabase:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp


On another note, I'm going to let it be known that with such a drastic change to the deck, I will probably keep making small tweaks here and there to get the most mileage out of it. I think Souls replaces most of my need for Diabolic Edict in the sideboard. In fact, I think 2 Jitte instead would be a lot stronger. It's a 2 mana Vinidcate against opposing Jitte, which is a problem card for me now, and it is a really strong card against Stoneblade. I have more than enough bodies to support it, and it's even good against tribal too.

Here is the sideboard I'm gonna try:

2 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[Jackehehe]

So I've been trying out lingering souls as well. I started running it as a 2-of, increasing it shortly thereafter to 3 and then finally 4. I really like the card, but I don't like shelling out the deck, going down on vindicates which I elaborated previously in this thread how much I like, as well as cutting a counterspell. One of the strenghts with this deck was its consistency.

I can certainly see the merits in lingering souls however, I am not so sold on the whole equipment idea that you hanni seem to be testing right now. It feels like this deck is taking on a different approach (not saying its for the worse) and I guess I am a bit conservative. Time will tell I guess. As a side-note, I most definatly agree with going up to 22 lands.

[jedi_gof]

I'm gonna try this manabase:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp


Hi Hanni,
Been wanting to bring out my balances for some time, and i will be going for your list with a few personal tweaks. However I am not sure about your manabase. With so many UU spells, can you really afford that many non-island sources? I mean, 4/14 manaproducing lands is quite a lot with the spells in the deck. Do you really need 2x plains w/o wrath main? (granted, I am yet to take this deck for a swing, but foresee some issues with that manabase.)
But deck looks great
-Chris

[xfxf]

Is W really needed with the current meta and the things black can provide? There is an UB Countertop list in my meta and although I haven't seen his full list I know that he plays black for both discard and creature removal, has obvious blue counters and snapcasters for doubling on everything. White gives you swords and wrath effects but with black you already have Wrath in the form of Perish and Dread of Night since green and white creatures are all the trouble now. Going down to 2 colors you could have a more stable and resilient manabase.

Edit: Oh, for black you have damnation also. I guess the current question is if Lingering Souls is worth the white.

[sarapfish]

The W is also for the Planeswalkers that goes with Jace. If you go UB, who will pair with Jace? Liliana?


Is W really needed with the current meta and the things black can provide? There is an UB Countertop list in my meta and although I haven't seen his full list I know that he plays black for both discard and creature removal, has obvious blue counters and snapcasters for doubling on everything. White gives you swords and wrath effects but with black you already have Wrath in the form of Perish and Dread of Night since green and white creatures are all the trouble now. Going down to 2 colors you could have a more stable and resilient manabase.

Edit: Oh, for black you have damnation also. I guess the current question is if Lingering Souls is worth the white.

[xfxf]

I was thinking Liliana yes. I know it's not the best choice though. However I think that currently going 3 colors intorduces a lot of vulnerabilites for a control deck. Spangalo's BUG list is also an example of that.

[yutang]

Hanni how do you feel about cutting the two path to exiles in the maimdeck for a 4th snapcaster mage or a darkblast?

I'm going to test out my list with 22 lands, 4 souls and 2 vindicates and 2 sorins in the main which seems like a good idea.

I'm not sold on the discard in your sb and I can see the need for a board sweep like wrath, but is it really worth the slot over perish?

I really think darkblast should be somewhere in our 75.

Edit:

This is my current decklist - I can definitely see the benefits of black over red now through Lingering Souls and Darkblast.

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
1 Darkblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Jace 2.0
2 Sorin 2.0

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
2 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Kor Haven

Sideboard:
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God
2 [Open slots] - not sure what to put here, but at the moment it is Zealous Persecution.

[somethingdotdotdot]

In the lists running souls, I think a singleton intuition has some merit. Its a kill condition that almost always gives you 6-8 tokens. I've been testing it in stoneblade and its been fairly amazing. It can also grab you a vindicate/snap/snap pile in a pinch.

[yutang]

Jesus christ,

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129834&d=1333944194&fb_source=message

Temporal Mastery.

I guess that kills the Counterbalance strategy for the next few months....

[Ajsmirnov]

Jesus christ,

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129834&d=1333944194&fb_source=message

Temporal Mastery.

I guess that kills the Counterbalance strategy for the next few months....

Why? They tap mana and waste a card, untap mana and draw a card. You still can counter other spells. Looks very much like Lonely Sandbar effect against Counterbalance.

[gustha]

Plus I hear miracle costs are good with Sensei's divinig top. This is time walk for us, period. I'm really excited about this card!

BTW, here's my last tweak on the deck:


3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
4 Island
4 Brainstorm
3 Wasteland
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Counterspell
1 Path to Exile
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Wrath of God
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Polluted Delta
3 Lingering Souls
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats


SB: 1 Wrath of God
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Sorin, Lord of Innstrad
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Day of Judgment

[Erdvermampfa]

It has CC7 so it tends to screw up the curve for Counterbalance. Nevertheless, I never really played a deck running Time Walk so I'm not entirely sure if the effect is worth it...

Also, you guys seem to lower the amount of CC2 spells constantly, e.g. the list above runs only 8 piece of CC2 and I got to wonder if this is really enough considering that there are so many dangerous CC2 cards in the format.

[yutang]

Why? They tap mana and waste a card, untap mana and draw a card. You still can counter other spells. Looks very much like Lonely Sandbar effect against Counterbalance.


It's too awkward to counterbalance opposing Masteries. There would be a LOT going on in the first few turns of the game and it may be too much for Counterbalance to handle.

For example, how do we deal with this deck:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage (if Personal Tutor is cut, this can be cut too)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Personal Tutor (may be iffy as you're giving up two cards for a Time Walk)
4 Daze
4 Stifle/Spell Snare
4 Jace 2.0
20 Islands/Wastelands/Fetches

Instead, it may be better to cut the Counterbalances out of the maindeck and add these into those slots. Predict may be great again.

[Jackehehe]

Hanni, how goes your testing with the more aggresive approach with jitte in SB?

[sarapfish]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129971&d=1334203275

Any chance for this to be a Superfriend?

[DragoFireheart]

You can cast Time Walk 2.0 on your opponents turn ala Top. This gets rid of the disadvantage of being forced to cast it on your turn when you draw it.

You can also do with this Brainstorm and 3 mana: Cast BS with TM already being on top.

Temporal mastery and Brainstorm obviously have better synergy.

[yutang]

Countertop Walker variant comes in 11th at the latest SCG Phoenix:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45482


Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage

Enchantments
4 Counterbalance

Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
3 Lingering Souls
1 Wrath of God

Basic Lands
4 Island

Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Warmth
2 Disenchant
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Extirpate
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
2 Perish
1 Wrath of God

[Jackehehe]

Taking the risk of sounding like a dick here but; I honestly doubt list would be qualified as a countertop superfriendS. Any CB-list running Jace doesn't equal superfriends. I'd say its just a modern CB-list, still nice to see positive results from a, despite everything, similar list as to what we are playing.

[sarapfish]

Yeah technically correct, but since it's only one card shy of the type (just change a Jace to Sorin/Elspeth and we got a Superfriends variant), I guess it's relevant enough to be here, and I'm glad too that it did well.



Taking the risk of sounding like a dick here but; I honestly doubt list would be qualified as a countertop superfriendS. Any CB-list running Jace doesn't equal superfriends. I'd say its just a modern CB-list, still nice to see positive results from a, despite everything, similar list as to what we are playing.

[MJL]

I noticed some people were discussing my list from SCG Phoenix. Thought I'd link up my report, and explain some of my card choices.
http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/balancing-to-11th-an-scg-phoenix-legacy-open-report-part-1/

[yutang]

Congratulations on your finish! Your article was a great read.

I already posted this in the comment section of your site:

Is there anything in your maindeck or sideboard which you would change for next time?

From your article, I'm guessing
-2 Spell Snare
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Counterspell

-1 Karakas
+1 Glacial Fortress

Did the Diabolic Edicts/Dismember perform for you? I am wary of the lifeloss from the Dismember and a 4th Lingering Souls may be better?

In terms of the sideboard,

-1 Disenchant
-1 EE
+1 Vindicate
+1 Spell Pierce

The two Enlightened Tutors seem strange...what are they for?

Also hi5 people in law playing mtg :)

This is currently my list which I posted under yutang on the Source:

UWb

(13)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Darkblast
4 Brainstorm

(11)
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
3 Snapcaster Mage

(6)
4 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate

(4)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

(4)
4 Force of Will

(22)
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Kor Haven
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Plague

How did cutting the other planeswalker, Counterspell, Force of Will feel?

[MJL]

I think I would leave in one snare. So like 3 Pierces, 1 Snare, 2 Counterspell as the package, maybe having the 4th Pierce in the board. The problem with Snare is drawing 2 in matches where its horrible. There is virtually no match where Spell Pierce is bad.

Dismember was good, I only cast it three times in the tournament.Once was to kill a Dark Confidant that got in under countermagic.I actually held it on top a lot for a 3 drop. Diabolic Edict worked well, and is good in some of your tougher matchups. It also kills Mongoose. Having 4 Lingering Souls feels like too much. Its a decent way to close a game or kill a Planeswalker, but you only ever really want to draw 1, mb 2 in a really grindy match or if they have their own Lingering Souls.

Elspeth isn't as good as she was before Lingering Souls was printed. Before she was virtually unkillable and could aggressively clock opponents and their Planeswalkers. Now Lingering Souls blocks her Token down, and she can be killed back, plus Spell Pierce and Sulfer Elemental are cards your opponents should be bringing in anyway,so after board its even worse. I haven't test Sorin, so he might be awesome.
Counterspell is a fine card, but having 4 is clunky. You have Snapcaster to buy it back when its the nuts, but your real goal should be to land a Counterbalance on the third or fourth turn, usually backed by Spell Pierce.
I did miss the last Force of Will, but the card is so bad in so many matchups these days. How many cards in Soulblade or Maverick do you really want to Force?
Your combo match-up is reasonably good with Spell Pierce, Snare and Counterspell and obviously Counterbalance. I don't really think all four are necessary, drawing 2 in some matches is pretty bad, drawing 3 will lose you the game.

The Enlightened Tutors were a hedge. I wanted to have 6 Counterbalance vs Ad Nauseum or Elves. I wanted to have 6 graveyard hate pieces vs Dredge and I wanted to find Warmth in every match against Burn, preferably by Turn 2. PLaying 4 Warmth is stupid, playing 6 Counterbalance is illegal, so I hedged with Enlightened Tutor. Initially the board also had a Serenity, but that was cut for the Engineered Explosives.

When I look at your list I feel like your playing a lot of late game bombs. Vindicates, Sorins, a ton of Souls. Counterbalance-Top is your late game bomb. Plus the selection of Top and Fetches allows you to find the bombs when you need them, so you dont need to play a lot. Play the game in a way to keep the board close so that Jace or Balance can win it. The Darkblast is pretty sweet with Lingering Souls though. I might implement that.

Glad you liked the article.

[sarapfish]

Very nice article indeed! Looking forward to part 2! :)

While I haven't gone the UWb route yet, I think with black mana available, trying out Sorin might be good, even as a 1-of. Hanni's list is good reference.



I think I would leave in one snare. So like 3 Pierces, 1 Snare, 2 Counterspell as the package, maybe having the 4th Pierce in the board. The problem with Snare is drawing 2 in matches where its horrible. There is virtually no match where Spell Pierce is bad.

Dismember was good, I only cast it three times in the tournament.Once was to kill a Dark Confidant that got in under countermagic.I actually held it on top a lot for a 3 drop. Diabolic Edict worked well, and is good in some of your tougher matchups. It also kills Mongoose. Having 4 Lingering Souls feels like too much. Its a decent way to close a game or kill a Planeswalker, but you only ever really want to draw 1, mb 2 in a really grindy match or if they have their own Lingering Souls.

Elspeth isn't as good as she was before Lingering Souls was printed. Before she was virtually unkillable and could aggressively clock opponents and their Planeswalkers. Now Lingering Souls blocks her Token down, and she can be killed back, plus Spell Pierce and Sulfer Elemental are cards your opponents should be bringing in anyway,so after board its even worse. I haven't test Sorin, so he might be awesome.
Counterspell is a fine card, but having 4 is clunky. You have Snapcaster to buy it back when its the nuts, but your real goal should be to land a Counterbalance on the third or fourth turn, usually backed by Spell Pierce.
I did miss the last Force of Will, but the card is so bad in so many matchups these days. How many cards in Soulblade or Maverick do you really want to Force?
Your combo match-up is reasonably good with Spell Pierce, Snare and Counterspell and obviously Counterbalance. I don't really think all four are necessary, drawing 2 in some matches is pretty bad, drawing 3 will lose you the game.

The Enlightened Tutors were a hedge. I wanted to have 6 Counterbalance vs Ad Nauseum or Elves. I wanted to have 6 graveyard hate pieces vs Dredge and I wanted to find Warmth in every match against Burn, preferably by Turn 2. PLaying 4 Warmth is stupid, playing 6 Counterbalance is illegal, so I hedged with Enlightened Tutor. Initially the board also had a Serenity, but that was cut for the Engineered Explosives.

When I look at your list I feel like your playing a lot of late game bombs. Vindicates, Sorins, a ton of Souls. Counterbalance-Top is your late game bomb. Plus the selection of Top and Fetches allows you to find the bombs when you need them, so you dont need to play a lot. Play the game in a way to keep the board close so that Jace or Balance can win it. The Darkblast is pretty sweet with Lingering Souls though. I might implement that.

Glad you liked the article.

[yutang]

I'm looking forward to Part 2 as well.

I'll have to test out your changes for

1) Maindeck Dismember/Edict - though Darkblast seems better than Dismember

2) 3 Lingering Souls instead of 4 - it seems like I would almost always be happy drawing Lingering Souls and it provides additional 3 drops for the curve

3) Cutting Elspeth/Sorin - I agree with this. With Lingering Souls, Delvers and Sulfur Elementals around, Elspeth is badly positioned right now. I may go to 3 Jaces instead.

4) Cutting Counterspells from 3 to 4 - I find that cutting Counterspells reduces my two-drop curve. It would then be only 3 Snapcasters, 4 Counterbalance and 3 Counterspell, which is 10 and insufficient. I really want to find a way to increase the two-drop slot and the thought of two cc removal like Edict is...not too appealing.

5) Spell Pierce - definitely agree on this. I want at least two in the maindeck, three would be ideal. There have been many instances where I wanted to land Counterbalance with Pierce backup against opposing Snares.

6) Going to a 3-of for Force of Will. Maybe with the increased number of Spell Pierces, we can afford to cut a FoW.

7) Etutor in the board - I'm not a fan of it. I'd rather board in actual hate cards. Eg. against storm, I'd rather have the Pierce that I board in instead of the Etutor which I board in.

8) Did Engineered Explosives pull its weight? I'm preferring Vindicate over it. As Hanni argued, it blows up my own things...which is somethign I don't want.

Based on your views, I'm going to try out my list with:

-2 Sorin
-1 Force of Will
+2 Pierce
+1 Jace

In the board, I would

-2 Pierce
+1 Force of Will
+1 Fact or Fiction

Anyways, its time for me to sleep - got a long day at the office tomorrow. How long do you have left until your degree finishes? I'm wonder what its like to practice in America.

[sarapfish]

Force of Will

I like the idea of reducing this card's number, it's like challenging the status quo of it always being a set on every blue-based control deck. Putting the 4th in the board is a good start.

Enlightened Tutor

If you're a fan of this card, I think you should put this in main, and let it do its work there. From time to time I try to squeeze in one of these to virtually increase chances of setting up cb-top, but then i remove them in place of card draw (e.g. Predict). The other thing against enlightened tutor is it's another 1cc card.

Counterspell

I wouldn't go below 3 for this deck in particular. Aside from the 2cc for the curve, it's a hard counter. Very dependable especially when our counter combo is not yet online and/or we don't have the cc available for the flip. It's like...insurance.

[Jackehehe]

So with the regards to the latest articles I've been doing some testing myself. This is my current list:


// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
5 [UNH] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [U] Scrubland

// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage

// Spells
2 [AP] Vindicate
3 [DKA] Lingering Souls
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [IA] Counterspell
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
1 [NPH] Dismember
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [ARE] Diabolic Edict

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ARE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [5E] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 2 [CST] Disenchant
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize

So some noteworthy changes are that I'm no longer running path to exile, that card simply feels obsolete from the fact that it wasn't ever the ideal removal, and shroud effects (mongoose says hello) demanding some sort of alternative removal.

I'm also only running 2 counterspells which has been working surprisingly good I think. There is a common misconception that counterspell is an early-game spell. This simply isnt true, especially in a deck that runs 3 colours. I seldom find myself having the resources to support it. 4 counterspells is definately too much, 3 might work.

I'm also running spell pierce in main. Spell pierce has the advantage of being useful early, and combined with a plenty amount of removal, the drawback of spell pierce isn't that great. It cant be stressed how important it is to land counterbalance, and spell pierce helps greatly with this just like the article stated. The more I play with the idea, I just can't figure out why we haven't tried spell pierce in main earlier on...?

I do not agree on running spell snare. Spell snare is too narrow I think, and removal + spell pierce deals with those occassions where it is useful.

I have to applause the initiative to cut fow. Fow can surely be overrated at times and the more we splash the deck, the harder fow becomes to support, therefore limiting deck design. I think that there definately are match ups where fow is a liability, but being such an establishes staple it is surely considered sacrilege to cut them. Cutting a fow or two from the main deck might prove enlightening!

[yutang]

So some noteworthy changes are that I'm no longer running path to exile, that card simply feels obsolete from the fact that it wasn't ever the ideal removal, and shroud effects (mongoose says hello) demanding some sort of alternative removal.

I agree.


I'm also only running 2 counterspells which has been working surprisingly good I think. There is a common misconception that counterspell is an early-game spell. This simply isnt true, especially in a deck that runs 3 colours. I seldom find myself having the resources to support it. 4 counterspells is definately too much, 3 might work.

Four was feeling a bit clunky and three feels just right. But going to three means the 2cc of the curve for Counterbalance is insufficient. I considered going to a four-of for Snapcaster but that may be too much.

At the moment, you only have 9 2cc and this may not be enough.


I'm also running spell pierce in main. Spell pierce has the advantage of being useful early, and combined with a plenty amount of removal, the drawback of spell pierce isn't that great. It cant be stressed how important it is to land counterbalance, and spell pierce helps greatly with this just like the article stated. The more I play with the idea, I just can't figure out why we haven't tried spell pierce in main earlier on...?

Spell Pierce does seem like a good idea the more I think about it. In the late game, we can Top it away. It stops one of Counterbalance's weaknesses – big bombs that cannot be handled by Counterbalance like Show and Tell, Natural Order, Elspeth or Jace.


I do not agree on running spell snare. Spell snare is too narrow I think, and removal + spell pierce deals with those occassions where it is useful.

Agree, Spell Snare also raises the 1cc curve of Counterbalance which is not what we want (we already have 4 Brainstorm, 4 Swords, 4 SDT, Pierces and for me, Darkblast).


I have to applause the initiative to cut fow. Fow can surely be overrated at times and the more we splash the deck, the harder fow becomes to support, therefore limiting deck design. I think that there definately are match ups where fow is a liability, but being such an establishes staple it is surely considered sacrilege to cut them. Cutting a fow or two from the main deck might prove enlightening!

This definitely needs testing – leaving a FoW in the board may be a good idea though.

Terminus
Can this replace Wrath of God in our SB? Is it maindeck material? I'm thinking it doesn't belong but I could be wrong.

[MJL]

Just for reference I actually ran 10 2 drops; 4 Counterbalance, 3 Snapcaster Mage, 2 Counterspell and a Diabolic Edict.
The other recommendation is to get all the non-blue producing lands out of the decks. For every time you want to have a Scrubland, Plains or Swamp, there are going to be three or four times where you cannot keep an opener because its only has one of them, or you cannot land a turn 2 Counterbalance, or you cannot cast Counterspell and Counterbalance on the same turn...etc. This take constantly demands double blue on turn 2 and triple blue on turn 3, sometimes quad blue on turn 4.
Sensei's Top also demands a lot of fetch lands, I ran ten and was almost never unhappy to see one.
I don't actually like Enlightened Tutor in main decks, so many matches are about trading one for one quickly, some matches however are about finding very specific cards, that are worth 3 or 4 cards when you land them. Wheel of Sun and Moon vs Dredge or Counterbalance vs Storm. These are the matches where Enlightened Tutor shines.

[MJL]

Part two of my SCG Phoenix tournament report is up, you should all check it out.
http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/balancing-to-11th-an-scg-phoenix-legacy-open-report-part-2/

[yutang]

"The second game of my match against RUG presented an interesting decision. I have 4 lands in play, including Tundra and an Underground Sea. My hand is Jace, Perish and Counterspell. My opponent also has three lands and 3 cards in hand. He has four cards in his graveyard, his board consists of two Nimble Mongoose. He currently has one untapped Volcanic Island and a fetch land. I’m on a healthy 12 life. Do I cast the Perish? Do I cast the Jace? If I cast the Jace, what do I do with it?

My concern was running my Perish into an opposing Spell Pierce. Since he was on the draw I assumed that he had boarded out his Dazes, so that should not be a concern. I decided to catch Jace, if it drew out a Spell Pierce then I could resolve Perish next turn. If it resolved and I got to brainstorm it seems likely I could find another land and back up my next play with Counterspell.

This proved to be a mistake, my opponent Red Elemental Blasted my Jace, than cast Brainstorm at the end of my turn. He then untaps and plays two Lightning Bolts, getting threshold and killing me exactly.

Despite what happened I think my line was probably correct, I would be interested in your thoughts in the comments section."

Although its easy to say in hindsight that you should have watched out for REB, I believe the chances of Spell Pierce in RUG are just as probable. They typically run a two-two split of Spell Pierce and REB in the board.

I don't think your line of reasoning and your play was incorrect - it was solid. But I personally would have waited (you are the control deck and you have the inevitability in the matchup) and actually have done nothing. The Mongeese were not threats yet - and you could save Counterspell mana for anything else in their hand (Burn).

"Chris comments that my line with Jace is weird, but I think it’s correct. When you’re tapped out, it’s easier to defend Jace by mana-screwing your opponent, but when you have untapped land, it’s easier to defend Jace with countermagic. Being able to play Spell Pierce and Counterspell, versus only Force makes a huge difference on the decision to brainstorm versus fateseal."

This not an incorrect line of play - I've done it before myself and your reasoning was the same reasoning I had.

Re Dredge

Sorry to hear about your disappointing loss to Dredge - I think this deck really needs to dedicate at least 4 graveyard slots in the sideboard to deal with it as it is our worst matchup. And it will only get worse with the increase in Dredge numbers due to the LED/Faithless Looting interaction.

I'm thinking if we are going up to 4 graveyard hate slots - we may as well run Leyline of the Void even though I dislike the card for a number of reasons. Firstly, its 4 slots for a narrow card. Secondly, you may need to mull to oblivion finding it and once you find it, the rest of your hand may be terrible. Thirdly, if they deal with it, its all over for u.

Re Spell Pierce

This card has turned out to be awesome and what we needed in the maindeck.

Re Sideboard

You've also convinced me to go to a 1-of for Disenchant as anything I wish to Disenchant may also be dealt with with Spell Pierce.

All in all, a wonderful series of articles/reads - it's great to hear such a detail report from a Counterbalance player.

[sarapfish]

I especially like MJL's report part 3. I think it showed what the deck needs to work on (battling dredge), and also showed its capacity to combat dominant decks like Maverick.

I'm thinking Nic Fit is a natural problem for a Counterbalance deck since the threats range from 4-6cc. I guess Jace can save the day.

[Teknique]

I'm thinking Nic Fit is a natural problem for a Counterbalance deck since the threats range from 4-6cc. I guess Jace can save the day.

I have not tried this matchup yet, but it actually doesn't seem like much of a problem. Just float a 3 and 1 (or have access to a top) for the game, and only use hard counters and swords on their few big bombs. With more traditional UW lists, one explorer dying I dare say is actually good for us as being able to spin + play cards early is huge.

With the new esper list, v.explorer is much more 1 sided, but black sideboard options are much stronger than UW's options for this matchup.

Anyway,
@MJL: excellent writeups, I appreciate someone showing their CBs some love and doing well!

[Maëlig]

A few questions for people with some experience with the deck :


@MJL How important has warmth been from your experience? Isn't it generally better to use tutor to assemble the missing part of CB + top? I guess I'm answering my own question, warmth seems decent in case you have neither pieces, but still, is it worth the slot?




Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
2 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Plague

How has engineered plague been treating you? Do you really feel that they're superior to zealous persecution?


With lingering souls making its way into most lists, maybe it's time to put humility on the table again? The card requires a few adjustments to be played in the MD, something along the lines of droping SCM and playing a small ET package such as 1-2 tutor(s), 1 humility, 1 EE, possibly 1 nihil spellbomb (at worst it cycles), an o. ring or even a jitte. My main concern with this strategy is that it makes the deck too light on 2cc spells for CB, and a bit light on the U count for FoW too. Any advice on this? Guess I'll just try to fit in a few predicts.

[MJL]

Warmth is more powerful against the red decks than Counterbalance, especially when your on the draw. Warmth doesn't require mana to be good, nor does it require a Top. Plus its oracle text reads that even if you counter the spell, you still gain the life.
I mostly decided on Warmth because Phoenix has a very Burn heavy metagame and it seemed like a better hoser than just playing another blue blast. Conditions were somewhat unique, although the card is probably good enough to bring in agains the U/R Delver variants as well.

[sarapfish]

I think Counterbalance decks are in the best position to properly utilize the Miracle mechanic. We normally plan our draws and manage what goes on top of the library. We even Predict what we want to throw away to replenish our hand.

With that, we probably should try out the following:

Entreat the Angels - for Lingering Souls and/or for Elspeth. It's a sweet 3cc too for Counterbalance.

Terminus - like Wrath of God, we will use this to get out of very bad situations, so we may need to test it out on different scenarios. Wrath of God is something we normally just hold on to until we need to reset the board. Terminus has to be Miracle-Drawn, or be a 6-mana Wrath. If it's consistently reliable, then we got a pretty good sweeper in our hands, improving our "control" game plan.

I'm not sure if we can accommodate Temporal Mastery, as we are tight on slots and have a lot of CC counts to maintain.

[Teknique]

I don't even see a reason to try accommodating Temporal Mastery. We get nothing out of it other than another planeswalker(s) activation. And if they're on the board, using their offensive activations already, you're probably not losing. And if you're on the defensive, then you're paying to set up and then pay :2: for either a brainstorm or a 1/1. Seems miserable.

It's not even good early in CB because the first few turns you are trying to establish the lock which means at least tying up :1: a turn for top/brainstorm/etutor, so you won't be casting it. And regardless of the fact that you can brainstorm it away, you don't want a dead card in your opening 7, especially with the speed of the format. Before any "Blah blah, pitches to force", cool, you're dumb.

Most importantly, what do you flip it to counter aside from opposing TMs?

[yutang]

Engineered Plague hasn't come up for me in testing yet. It was put in as a pre-emptive against people who wanted to try out the new Cavern of Souls in tribal decks like Goblins (which we previously struggled with but has recently died down). I don't believe Cavern of Souls will have a big impact on Legacy but people will play it anyway...

I tested Temporal Mastery in other decks and it's not as good as hyped. I think Terminus is the best card out of AVR for this deck to warrant some sort of testing.

If Entreat the Angels is to be included, it would replace the slot of Jace 2.0, which I don't think it can.

[sarapfish]

@Yutang

Why Jace's slot? He's a great help to make the miracles work. Shouldn't it take the other planeswalker's slot (Sorin/Elspeth) since they are also token generators?

[yutang]

@Yutang

Why Jace's slot? He's a great help to make the miracles work. Shouldn't it take the other planeswalker's slot (Sorin/Elspeth) since they are also token generators?

I forgot to mention that Lingering Souls has already replaced Elspeth/Sorin in my build. It's more explosive than planeswalkers and not as vulnerable to opposing Souls.

Hence it competes with Jace's slot as a wincon.

[Syaoran]

Here's something I brewed up on MWS - currently going through rounds of testing. Suggestions appreciated!



// Lands
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand
3 [ZEN] Plains (3)
9 [DPA] Island (3)
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Tundra

// Spells
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [DD2] Daze
4 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
2 [M10] Ponder
3 [AVR] Temporal Mastery
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 2 [LG] Moat


Entreat and temporal are pure testing- so far I've been amazed how well they work. Drew one? No problem, just brainstorm or JTMS it back onto the top of your deck.

Sideboard is a mess. Only thing I know is relic>tormods due to counterbalance, and meddling is always good.

[The Treefolk Master]

Looks good, although I would cut the Dazes for Counterspells, you cannot afford to lose a land drop when you're trying to cast Jaces, Eslpeths, Entreat the Angels and Shackles.

I personally consider Mastery to be overrated, but only time will tell... I think Snapcaster might be better...

I'd look into fitting Terminus somewhere in the 75 though, perhaps 1 MD and 1 SB.

3 Shackles feel like too much to me. 2 is the right number I think.

I'd look into fitting O. Rings in the SB.

What's the reasoning behind Mages and Leylines? I think Pierces/Vendilions might be better.

Peacekeeper + Moat seems a bit overkill. If you're running shackles, swords and terminus MD, I'd look into:

1 Moat
1 Terminus
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique

I'm not sure, but has anyone tried running some fat dudes post board? Ideally, the opponent will take out removal, so you bring in something like Baneslayer Angel. Or maybe the Stoneforge package (Jitte + Batterskull).

Thoughts?

[Syaoran]

I'll try just about everything.

Mastery is UNDERRATED. Considering going up to 4 even. It is broken any stage of the game.

Probably right on everything else. Tweaking now!

(also, I tried wastes... bad idea)

EDIT:



// Lands
10 [DPA] Island (3)
2 [ZEN] Plains (3)
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Tundra
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand

// Spells
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [6E] Counterspell
1 [AVR] Terminus
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [M10] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AVR] Temporal Mastery
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares
2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LG] Moat
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 [AVR] Terminus


I might try a fatty to side in. I've seen people board in echoing truth to deal with angels interesting enough. Might go up on the number of main board terminus, and remove some swords for it. (Swords has the advantage of being friends with top though)

[The Treefolk Master]

It could be.

I mean, I can see your point of view, but I think you're mis-judging it. It is quite random, it will be an Explore most of the time. The only positive situation I envision with this is getting extra walker activations, but I'm not sold on it.

Still, I could be wrong...

I wish I'm not though, anything which could remotely lead to Brainstorm's legality in the format is not my friend...

(Please don't take me wrong, I'm not saying Brainstorm will get banned, nor I'm saying T. Mastery will get banned/is disgustingly broken).

You're actually testing the card (albeit on MWS; but still...), while I'm just theorycrafting, so your feedback will be really appreciated...

[Syaoran]

I mean, even as an explore (that also untapped all your lands, don't forget), it's still really strong. Ramping in blue? Yes please. That's the WORSE case senario. Later and later, you get to cast it, spend a turn dropping everything without needing to keep any mana open, untap, and keep going. The only games I've lost when I resolved TM in was against counter-burn, and I'm unsure what I should do in that MU anyways. (maybe the leylines will come back....)

[The Treefolk Master]

Shouldn't you be winning vs. Counterburn?

I mean, Countertop locks out their whole deck.

I could see you loosing to a faste delver start + counterspells, but still, swords should solve this.

You can fetch basics to mitigate Price of Progress too.

[Syaoran]

ya, both times he had explosive starts- triple bolts + snapcaster + the 5 damage for 1 burn. Other time was explorer explorer grim bolt opener. I simply died before I could get things out. Might have been simply unlucky draws for me + luck for him. More testing required clearly.

[sarapfish]

@syaoran

Hooray for your U/W build, and your list seems good. I've been setting up something similar. Here are some thoughts and personal preferences:

Lands
21 or 22 total, with at least 8 fetch lands. I understand your intent to make Shackles stronger though.

Ponder
This is also what I had in mind to increase our draw control package. Not that convinced, but will try it out. Let us know how it goes for you.

Entreat the Angels
I tested 2, will try out 3. It's been performing well so far.

Temporal Mastery
May it be over or underrated, but the question is whether it has synergy and will help us on our game plan. So far its biggest downside is that it's not 2cc. You only have 7 2cc cards (actually 6 since one Counterbalance will hit the table).


Here's my list for testing:

8 Islands
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

1 Terminus
3 Entreat the Angels

4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant


EDIT: Removed the Ponder for a 4th Snapcaster Mage. It can bring back Brainstorm after all, which is the key synergy for miracle cards.

[Syaoran]

actually, ya, snap>ponder is a good call.

I dislike having more than 2 entreats, since you only want to see one in a game. Maybe two in a long game, but it's a finisher card- Imagine if you open your hand and see two. (owe- I've opened with two temporals, and just brainstormed them for a double early explore. It wasn't the best use, but they didn't rot)

I've never regretted the number of lands I run.

[Maëlig]

ya, both times he had explosive starts- triple bolts + snapcaster + the 5 damage for 1 burn. Other time was explorer explorer grim bolt opener. I simply died before I could get things out. Might have been simply unlucky draws for me + luck for him. More testing required clearly.

From my experience it's a rough MU, despite having access to CB-top. They just deal tons of damage before we assemble the soft-lock, and even then we need a clear board to really have control of the game. Also, sulfuric vortex is a bitch (I'm not sure whether to side in the disenchants or not though, opinions?).

[MJL]

Your dying because your list runs too many slow cards. Spell Pierce is an essential card in this format. As is playing 5-6 early spot removal spells. Hydroblast is the best answer to Sulfuric Vortex against RUG, in combination with Spell Pierce, they shouldn't be able to land it.

[Maëlig]

Yeah I agree, I now play 4 pierce and 4 StP 4 snapcaster 3 path in my 75. It's still not a cake walk, but it's definitely winnable. Hydroblast is an interesting idea but I'm not sure I like it, it seems a bit narrow.