The Dewey Decimal System

[Jabari]

It's a deck that makes it hard for your opponent to search for stuff...

Anyways, I'm trying to build a RW deck revolving around Moon effects and Leonin Arbiter for mana denial. Here is a rough starting point.


Creatures 19
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Serra Avenger
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Instants 10
4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt

Artifacts 2
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantments 5
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Blood Moon

Planeswalkers 5
4 Ajani Vengeant
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Lands 19
4 Arid Mesa
7 Plains
4 Mountains
4 Ghost Quarter


The mana base is really rough as is and definitely needs improvment, also should I cut the number of Planeswalkers? It seems excessive.

Thoughts, suggestions?

[Droxis]

If the focus of the deck is to deny your opponent "options" while killing them with an aggro game plan, I believe you should consider what your deck does (or needs to do) better than decks that already lean on those philosophies. I recommend looking into what Dragon Stompy (or any white stax variant, actually) uses and seeing what you can mesh into your design (Phyrexian Revoker comes to mind). That said, this looks like an attempt at blending the denial options of various white weeny decks and Dragon Stompy, while cutting back the "all in" nature of Dragon Stompy. (Looking into old boros lists might offer some inspiration, too)

I believe you should consider whether or not the limitations you are placing are going to be detrimental enough to the other player that they are even worth using. See, in Dragon Stompy, the moon effects are mixed in with a few other factors: Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and scary threats. Most decks worth their salt can handle an early moon effect, trinisphere, or early big monster, but its when the possibility of two or more of these factors rests on the table that really makes the Dragon Stompy plan "work." That said, there will be -many- games where the other side of the table simply does not care about your moon effects. So, if you want to run moon effects as a primary thing, I'd first consider what you are going to be dealing with in your meta. If its merrily packed with tribal decks and jank, the moons will be found lacking.

As I mentioned, unlike Dragon Stompy, there is very little "meat" in your creatures, most of which will get run over by... practically everything in legacy. I understand you are going to try and make up for this by limiting your opponents and packing your own removal, but I am hesitant to give thumbs up on what I'm seeing without testing.

As far as what I would consider removing or tweaking, I'm very much in favor of toning down the planewalker count and adding sword equipment. Sword equipment will beef up your relatively small creatures and protect them, offering improved board position.

Another recommendation would be Mother of Runes. She is a classy one drop that will protect your incredibly annoying creatures. If you have equipment down, she can let anything that can't fly over attack with ease, activating whatever board presence power said equipment has. She can also help you not get run over by goofy.

Anyway, it probably goes without saying, but anyone could rattle on about this or that in any given developing deck. In the end a lot of it lands on whether or not you can make it work in the meta you are planning to play in. Making it work, though, lands heavily on experience with the game and the deck in question. Plus a lot of motivation to stick with a deck, even when it fails miserably on some occasions. I've learned that the hard way.

[KærvekTheMerciless]

The entirety of the threat of Dragon Stompy comes with dropping control conditions and threats BEFORE your opponent has the opportunity to stabilize the game in their favor.

The only acceleration you're running is SSG. Not enough in my opinion. Yeah, it allows a turn 1 Arbiter, but if that card was strong enough to compete in Legacy, it'd be in DnT. The fact that it's not tells me that its more of a flashy card than anything else.

Really, Aven Mindcensor is crap. Compleat crap.

And besides, if you wanted to stop them being productive in a given turn, blue or green is better than white, by far.

Shadow Of Doubt
Stifle
Interdict
Mindlock Orb
Bind
Voidslime
Trickbind
Squelch
even.....
Fatigue
Early Frost

Granted that's 8 cards that stop fetches, 6 specific to activated abilities, 4 cantrips, 2 junk commons and the uber-costly Mindlock Orb.

But think about this:
If they have no land, those 8 fetch-stops are Time Walks.
If they have no hand, Fatigue is a Time Walk.
If they have 3 or less land, Early Frost is a Time Walk. (unless they play artifact or creature mana, but we won't go there)

Consider what you're doing and what your chosen color is better at. Your white creature control is suitable, however 19 creatures with 2 Jittes and NO way to pull them out, trust me, you'll be lucky to see one at all.

My suggestion: add blue, sack red, and make your beats more productive. Not by adding equipment, that slows you down while also tying up the mana you need to stop them. You need efficiency, and two- and three-drops are not going to cut it when they only do 2-3 damage apiece.

This guy might be better for your style of build than Serra Avenger, same damage, no flying, but no turn restriction.
Blade Of The Sixth Pride

If you decide to stick with red, please consider some better sources of damage.

I heard this guy is good.
Rakdos Pit Dragon

Also, this dude is like a cheating girlfriend, they never see it coming:
Ball Lightning

And since we are so happy about the number 3:
Arc Runner

[perm]

Early frost and fatigue are 100% awful. They are symmetrical effects, except fatigue also costs -2 mana and early frost is -1 card.

Stifle effects will always be the best mana disruption in the format, so definitely think about that. Arbiter/mindcensor are hit and miss cards really

[Kuma]

It's a deck that makes it hard for your opponent to search for stuff...

Then shouldn't you call it Library of Congress?

[Jabari]

Then shouldn't you call it Library of Congress?

Hahaha GENIUS! That is definitely the new title.

Also thanks everyone for your suggestions. I agree the list is definitely looks like it has some sort of identity crisis going on. I think I want to keep the list as RW and try and run a Dragon Stompy gameplan without utilizing Chalice of the Void. This would reduce my reliance on City of Traitors/Ancient Tomb allowing me to support both colors.

I don't think it's worth going into UW just because the biggest gain is Stifle and maybe Daze, but Moon effects have the potential to be more of a lock.

Here is a revised list that might be worth more discussion:

The Library of Congress


Creatures
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Figure of Destiny

Artifacts/Enchantments
4 Chrome Mox
3 Blood Moon
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Instants
4 Path to Exile

Planeswalkers
2 Ajani Vengeant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Land
3 Arid Mesa
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Ancient Tomb // City of Traitors
6 Plains
4 Mountains


I left 4 flex slots for the beatdown slot. The equipment could easily be cut in favor of 2 to 4 more beatdown creatures. Those slots can also be used to free up room for Phyrexian Revoker because I feel like naming Aether Vial will be very relevant. I like Serra Avenger because she's cheap and carries equipment well. The turn restriction shouldn't be big as she isn't meant to be played early. Turns 1 2 and 3 should consist of dropping Moon effects/white lock pieces. She could just as easily be Kargan Dragonlord which seems really strong in this list. I don't think Pit Dragon or Gathan Riders really shine in this list because I don't want to be an all in Hellbent type of deck. By adding PtE for removal the aggro matchup gets a lot better. Plus Ghostly Prison seems like it has the potential to be the nuts against tribal.

Also in relation to equipment, it could easily dropped and replaced with Trinisphere, thoughts?

The planeswalkers add an element to the deck that again give it more power lategame. Elspeth might not be optimal being as she doesn't fit the strategy of denying mana. There should only be 3 Planeswalkers, but should it be a 2 - 1 split or just straight Ajani?

[Richard Cheese]

You should also take a look at the Imperial Painter thread. It runs a similar stompy manabase + moon effects. You could basically steal their manabase and swap the combo for a more aggro creature lineup (looks like you may have already).

I would def. consider Figure of Destiny over Kargan Dragonlord, and something other than Ajani. His tapdown ability is just ok, and it takes forever to get him up to his ultimate. Moreover, he isn't really a threat on his own, whereas Elspeth is. You might consider just going with a big fattie like Baneslayer rather than planeswalkers, just to try and finish things off before your opponent has a chance to stabilize.

[Jabari]

I think I wanna test Ajani first just to see if his tapdown really is just okay, or if in conjunction with the other effects he works. I can definitely see him possibly not pulling his wait though. For now I'll try the 2 - 1 split as opposed to the 3 ajani. Baneslayer seems like a possibility as well with all the ramp. If I do run Baneslayer though it will have to be at the expense of 2 equipment. This would allow me to still support a four of either the Dragonlord or the Figure. Six game ending creatures will definitely be enough.

Figure will probably be better mana wise than Dragonlord but the fact that it doesn't have evasion until it's fully leveled may be a problem. With a 6 mana investment they both become 4/4's except the dragon can fly while figure can't.

[Richard Cheese]

Re-read the card, it gets flying and first strike at the last level. Figure is better because you can activate it at instant speed, and it doesn't use counters so there's no way for an opponent to "de-level" it other than an effect that removes it from play.

[Jabari]

I know that about the last level, if either ever gets to a point where they are fully leveled they are insane of course. Dragonlord does take a great deal longer to do so than Figure though which is notable. What I'm trying to point out is Dragonlord gets to the same P/T with the same mana investment but with the added bonus of evasion.

I think the debate between the two cards really comes down to the availability of mana in this list. I honestly can't tell whether one will be better than the other being that they both have their pros and cons. Instant speed leveling is very beneficial, but I also like the idea of not having to sink all of my mana into the creature at once and still having a solid evasive beater with less of a mana investment. Dragonlord is able to reach his final level without having six mana sources whereas that's what is needed for figure, though sorcery speed leveling may just prove too backbreaking.

Edit: I think for mana reasons Figure is probably the pick, also I changed the list by cutting 2 lands for 2 revoker. 22 is way too many lands. Also Chrome Mox, should it be Mox Diamond?