SCG-Article: On Combo

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Interested in knowing what I think should be done about combo's recent success, its origins and how decks need to adapt to a metagame that has a solid amount of combo-decks in it? If so, give this a click:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21628_Eternal_On_The_Other_Side_Of_The_Ocean_On_Combo.html

[Jonathan Alexander]

I really liked this one. I read a few hours ago, so I don't know everything you said in detail, but I really think that your claims about maindecking hate for noncreatures like maindecking (spot-)removal are quite interesting. Nonetheless it's a standpoint I can support. Also, I don't know what's so bad about playing Team America. That deck crushes combo.
One thing about Big Zoo though: with Wasteland and access to maindeck Gaddock Teeg via Green Sun's Zenith it's combo matchup isn't so much worse than with faster lists. Leading with Noble Hierarch and then casting Green Sun's Zenith for Gaddock Teeg on the second turn is definitely stronger than leading with Wild Nacatl and then following up with Tarmogoyf. If you make it to turn three though, the latter combination can still be very strong given that you also have a lot of burn spells available. Especially Price Of Progress and Fireblast help a lot here.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Awesome article. It was very informative, and it's really nice to hear somebody who ISN'T screaming "OMG COMBO BANZ." I also enjoyed the Dreadstill cameo at the end - as a storm player, that's the matchup I dread *gasp* more than any other.

[vilik]

Nice and informative read. Good job on voicing my sentiments. Keep up the good work.

- Vilik

[3eowulf]

Well, congratulations, you managed to say exactly what I think on the matter:smile:

[ESG]

it's really nice to hear somebody who ISN'T screaming "OMG COMBO BANZ."

I second this. More often than not, I enjoy playing against combo. It's nice to have to consider a different set of plays or counterstrategies. However, I will say that High Tide is possibly the least fun to play against out of all the combo decks. I feel like I could order a sandwich, have it delivered, and eat it before the deck was done going off.

[Rabbi]

Control builds used to be viable, but the more efficient that creature builds became the less viable control builds became. Aether Vial pretty much means that if you're playing CounterTop or Xstill in a tournament you're going to lose to merfolk, goblins, or goyf. Because combo can outrace super efficient creature builds, and control builds are basically being hated out of the meta, combo currently reigns supreme. Unfortunately, no deck is equipped to beat these creature builds as well as these combo decks. The decks proposed in your article might beat combo, but they'd lose to more efficient creature decks and therefore wouldn't be any more successful.

The best positioned deck right now is probably something like NO-Bant which runs efficient creatures to combat other creature builds, counters to combat combos, and a combo of its own to give it an edge against other creature builds and random. Maybe NO-Bant needs to run 4x mana leak or even counterspell on top of FoW?

If you really want to hurt combo, ban wasteland and aether vial. That will give control the breathing room it needs to properly control combo in the meta.

[warallthetimne]

Yes....ban vial and waste......:evil laugh from the zoo player: those seem like perfectly logical ideas to help control...... cough cough and zoo cough lol. I agree something meeds to be printed to stabalize controls
matchup vs aggro but you cant go overboard and suggest banning vial and wasteland could do that

[GGoober]

Vial is more unfair than combo.

It's 1 mana investment to make everything else in your deck free, counter-free, not to mention the huge tempo advantage vial decks have over other decks.

/rant
/control-player

No seriously, aggro players cry over control, but have they thought of how control is weeping because of cards like Vial in the format? It's not like control is unviable, you just have to answer vial, but it ain't easy. The same way aggro needs to try to answer combo, but it ain't easy.

[Bryant Cook]

"Combo really isn't the boogeyman [some] people make it out to be."

It's me.

[Octopusman]

"Combo really isn't the boogeyman [some] people make it out to be."

It's me.

I'd sig this if I were that kind of guy. I lol'ed.

I agree that combo isn't a problem. They keep printing stuff like that new grave-hate, mindbreak trap, phyrexian revoker. And theres needle, FoW, Canonist, etc.

To echo what others have said, I find it more disturbing that vial is so necessary due to its power level. Creature creep is what worries me.

[SpikeyMikey]

Vial isn't that great. I mean, it's worth running but some people are talking about it like it's Yawg Will 2.0. The thing with Vial is that it's slow. You do nothing with your first turn and often nothing useful on T2 either. In exchange, turns 3-5 are often disgusting. But when I'm playing my Bant, I like seeing Vial; it means I probably get a threat down before them and win off the back of it.

[GradStudentGuy]

Instead of banning cards to make control viable why not unban cards. Current control builds don't even run counter spell so would unbanning mana drain allow the archetype to exist?

[SpikeyMikey]

Instead of banning cards to make control viable why not unban cards. Current control builds don't even run counter spell so would unbanning mana drain allow the archetype to exist?

No. Drain is good and would certainly see play but its scarcity would drive prices to insane levels and it would be out of reach for most players. In the end it would have little impact on the format because of its low saturation and it would just further push the format out of reach in the minds of non-Legacy players. Yes it was an uncommon but if you compare it to rares from Legends that are used frequently as one-of's, I think that should give you an idea of where the price might land. Since more decks would run Drain than run Moat or Tabernacle. Just imagine: your deck starts with 4 Force, 4 Drain and 4 Jace. You've spent $1600 and still have 48 cards to go before you can even sit down and play.

[GradStudentGuy]

No. Drain is good and would certainly see play but its scarcity would drive prices to insane levels and it would be out of reach for most players. In the end it would have little impact on the format because of its low saturation and it would just further push the format out of reach in the minds of non-Legacy players. Yes it was an uncommon but if you compare it to rares from Legends that are used frequently as one-of's, I think that should give you an idea of where the price might land. Since more decks would run Drain than run Moat or Tabernacle. Just imagine: your deck starts with 4 Force, 4 Drain and 4 Jace. You've spent $1600 and still have 48 cards to go before you can even sit down and play.

The ban list does not exist because of a cards rarity in legacy. Candelabras, Grim Tutors , and Imperial recruiter are prime examples of cards you play multiples of that are over the $100 mark. My question was more aimed as if the card was unbanned would it give control the edge it needs?

[.nemesis]

My question was more aimed as if the card was unbanned would it give control the edge it needs?

Likely yes. But it would also give Combo more edge. If Drains were unbanned, I know what I'd play day in, day out: Repeal Drain Tendrils.

[SpikeyMikey]

The Legacy banned list originally contained and still contains cards banned in part due to accessabilty. So it makes sense for it to stay there.

[edgarps22]

Mana Drain would be really good for the format, but would increase the barrier of entry again. It used to be a staple before the split of 1/1.5 back in 2004. It was extremely good, would continue to be really good, and would probably break Gifts Ungiven and Fact or Fiction again. But yeah the price would be insane again, and yes there are cards on the banned list because of price and scarcity, though they have been removing things from the list lately.

[Mon,Goblin Chief]

Everybody who liked the article: Thanks for the compliments :D I'm happy to see that there is a reasonable amount of people that don't want to nuke combo from orbit becomes it stirs up the meta a little.

@Vial: Vial is stupid-good against blue-based control, otherwise it's no more than a good card. The fact that it disables stack-based interaction while providing a sweet mana-boost makes it something that is very hard to fight for control. Now that doesn't mean it's too good for the format and should be banned. In the same way combo has a right to exist, so does aggro.
What it does mean however is that Vial is the single card that is really holding stack-based control (be it CB or massive Countermagic) down, so if combo becomes to powerful, it would be Vial's fault, at which point I'd think about getting rid of it. Until that seems necessary, wanting to ban Vial is something I would enjoy because I hate the damn card (channeling my inner control-player here) but as the card really isn't broken so far, it shouldn't be done.

As to Mana Drain - yes please, gimme gimme. For real, how many of you have actually played with Mana Drain against decks that aren't tuned Vintage killing machines (aka played Vintage before 2003-4)? The ability to Drain a two-drop and follow it with your own four-five drop on turn 3 is one of the brokenest things ever. I simply don't think Drain is ever going to be fair in Legacy because it turns control-decks into combo-decks far to effectively.
I'm not going to comment on the availability-issue because while I don't mind wotc keeping too expensive cards from becoming format staples so far, I don't think price/availability should really be a banning-criterion. Otherwise we'll be banning Duals at some point, what with the format growing the way it does.