Brainstorming: Sunforger Combo

[Barook]

It's an interesting topic that deserves its own thread:

Puresteel Paladin + Sunforger

Puresteel Paladin :w::w:
Creature - Human Knight
Whenever an Equipment enters the battlefield under your control, you may draw a card.
Metalcraft - As long as you control 3 or more artifacts, each Equipment you control has equip 0.
2/2

Once the combo with Metalcraft active is established, you can fetch Seething Song and Manamophose for free draws and extra activations.

Current known ways to go infinite:

- Wheel of Sun and Moon is already in play enchanting you --> infinite draw + tons of mana, probably ending in a lethal Banefire

- Another variant involves: Skyshroud Elf, Emrakul, Firestorm and Eladamri's Call

Step 1: Get WWR from lands, activate Sunforger, grab a Seething Song
Step 2: Second activation, grab Manamorphose, add GW to your mana pool. (RRRRGW now in it)
Step 3: Third activation - get Eladamri's Call, fetch Elf and play it (RR left)
Step 4: Filter one mana into W, activate to grab another Seething Song, filter the mana, generate more mana by fetching mana sources.
Step 5: Use another Call to fetch Emrakul, grab Firestorm, discard Emrakul to it, shuffle your graveyard back (requires a Firestorm in your yard if you want to repeat the entire thing)
Step 6: Repeat generating mana and drawing cards until instant win (exact wincon debateable).

There might still be better combos out there. The best way to establish Metalcraft fast in a decent manner is also going to be an important topic.

[perm]

You're going to want manamorphose 4 maindeck, 2 research and development maindeck, four wishboard cards for Research and Development. Double Negative should be 1 of maindeck and 1 sideboard, as well as Odds and Ends,

I am thinking a WUr deck, with enough blue for FOW.

I would definitely advise against trying to force some game winning combo into it, but more just a compact combo that fits in easily to enhance an aggro equips deck with counter tricks/research tricks backing up the efficient equips gameplan. I think this is literally the only use that research has

[Scatterbrain]

I was brainstorming this combo a bit and came up with this - (rough, rough draft)

4 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Puresteel Paladin

4 Orim's Chant
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Eladamri's Call
1 Silence
2 Grapeshot
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Chrome Mox
4 Sunforger
4 Steelshaper's Gift
4 Lotus Petal

I feel that the best won condition is going to be 2x grapeshot since it mean you do not need to run wheel of sun and moon or any other enablers to be able to win. You simply need to be able to activate Sunforger 9 times. The Empty and rituals and rituals are your other win condition, since when you don't have the combo you can just be a Belcher deck and make 10 1/1s on turn 1.

This deck seems like it will never be better than Tendrils or Belcher, but it seems fun.

[rufus]

Another way to go infinite:
Final Fortune & Enlightened Tutor->Wheel of Sun and Moon (or Elixir of Immortality
and then, on the next, and subsequent turns:
draw cast Whel of Sun and Moon, and sunforge for Final Fortune & Angel's Grace to get infinite turns.

Another possibility is that
Eladamri's Call->Painter's Servant provides access to all instants of CMC 4 or less like Turnabout and Brain Freeze.

The other thread already mentions ramping into and hard casting Emrakul the Aeons Torn.

Barren Glory finishes are possible, via Academy Rector and Renounce, but, at least at first flush, it looks terrible.

[P-E]

i'm certainly put imperial recruiter to fetch the paladin and keep it WR
seems quite funny deck with boil in side fetchable g2 you could beat high tide at least haha

[Barook]

@Scatterbrain: Grapeshot is a sorcery, so you can't grab it with Sunforger. And you have no way to draw/tutor for it.

@Perm: Isn't Abeyance way more effective while staying in color to proctect the combo?

Does fetching Research // Development even work? The red part of the card is 5cc, so I'm not sure.

@P-E:
Recruiter is a decent way to grab both Paladins and Stoneforge Mystic. Main problem is the absurd price tag, however.

Bit I agree with Perm that a compact combo is probably the best way to go. The Wheel combo might be the most fitting one yet. 1-2 copies of Wheel (which isn't that bad against graveyard-based decks, too), Enlightened Tutors (which can grab important artifacts/artifact lands as well), 4 copies of Manamorphose and a single copy of Grapeshot (or two for redundancy). Once the combo is established, grab Manamorphoses until you have drawn your deck and finish them off with a giant Grapeshot.

Edit: It also makes including a single copy of Abeyance easier to use. With Wheel in play, you can play/fetch it over and over again until they can't counter it anymore. Then you go off the turn it resolves, assuming you have :r::w: to do so.
Sunforger is also able to E Tutor for Wheel to go off the next turn, assuming you have 4 mana available.

A tutorable way to destroy annoying artifacts (e.g. Chalice for 2) or enchantments (Counterbalance) might be good, too. I'm thinking about Orim's Thunder or Abolish.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Bit I agree with Perm that a compact combo is probably the best way to go. The Wheel combo might be the most fitting one yet. 1-2 copies of Wheel (which isn't that bad against graveyard-based decks, too), Enlightened Tutors (which can grab important artifacts/artifact lands as well), 4 copies of Manamorphose and a single copy of Grapeshot. Once the combo is established, grab Manamorphoses until you have drawn your deck and finish them off with a giant Grapeshot.

I appreciate that you do not focus on the combo as this is far from a good 2 card combo (tons of mana+Metalcraft requirement), let alone it is at present a 3 card combo. The major need is to to develop a solid aggro backbone. However, as compact as the minicombo sounds (1 Manamorphose, 1 Wheel and 1 Wincon are only 3 slots), the aggro plan is further diluted by 3-4 ETutor (card disadvantage), 1-2 Sunforger and 4 Paladin (an awkward fact that the knight is not a good aggro piece). This is some real design challenge.

[Barook]

This is some real design challenge.
It certainly is, but that's part of the fun.

But what would you suggest as the aggro backbone? Vial is obviously a given. Serra Avengers? Jotun Grunts for recycling? Aside from getting Stoneforge Mystic and Paladin, Imperial Recruiter could also grab a Mirran Crusader for some brutal equipment beats.

Grim Lavamancer + Basilisk Collar would also be nice in the setup, but I'm starting to doubt that you could run enough stuff to feed him regularly, even if you run burn to support it. The number of fetchlands you can run is limited due the need of artifact lands. He also doesn't go that well with equipment beats.

[Brushwagg]

Stoneforge Mystic seems like it should be in the deck somewhere. Grabs Sunforger and can cheat into play.

Also maybe to help Metalcraft you could add in a couple of artifact lands.

[perm]

By the

Wheel of the sun and moon is just too limited of a card. So it basically combos with three other cards to produce an effect that just draws out your deck. WHy not just play an ad nauseam deck instead? What we should be looking for is something that supplements our aggro equips strat. Any card that we might like to draw our deck. I wouldn't be against it as a 1-of in the maindeck, and tutors used with it. But pretty much every instant besides, say, STP should be a 1 of, with a wishboard with research (which can be castd with sunforger, along with development)

[Lusian]

15 creatures
4 stoneforge mystic
4 puresteel paladin
4 mother of runes
3 mirran crusader

13 spells
3 manamorphose
3 seething song
3 swords to plowsheres
1 disenchant
3 eladamri's call

11 artifacts
4 æther vials
1 sword of light and shadow
1 sword of feast and famine
1 sword of fire and ice
1 lightning greaves
2 jitte
1 sunforger

21
3 mox opal
4 great furnace
4 ancient den
4 arid messa
4 taiga
2 plateau
2 wooded foothills

this is what i think the list could look like
it doesnt go all for combo kill with sunforger but instead for manamorphose and sunforger and call for mystic to make the sunforger paladin net you a mystic a equipment and 4 cards and it can if needed hit with crusader with a sword on turn 3 becourse of seething song by limiting the combo peices to call manamorphose and song you dont end up with unuseable combo parts in hand without being able to go off and crusader with a sword and a sunforger hits harder than a progenitus each turn

[Rizso]

@Scatterbrain: Grapeshot is a sorcery, so you can't grab it with Sunforger. And you have no way to draw/tutor for it.

@Perm: Isn't Abeyance way more effective while staying in color to proctect the combo?

Does fetching Research // Development even work? The red part of the card is 5cc, so I'm not sure.

@P-E:
Recruiter is a decent way to grab both Paladins and Stoneforge Mystic. Main problem is the absurd price tag, however.

Bit I agree with Perm that a compact combo is probably the best way to go. The Wheel combo might be the most fitting one yet. 1-2 copies of Wheel (which isn't that bad against graveyard-based decks, too), Enlightened Tutors (which can grab important artifacts/artifact lands as well), 4 copies of Manamorphose and a single copy of Grapeshot (or two for redundancy). Once the combo is established, grab Manamorphoses until you have drawn your deck and finish them off with a giant Grapeshot.

Edit: It also makes including a single copy of Abeyance easier to use. With Wheel in play, you can play/fetch it over and over again until they can't counter it anymore. Then you go off the turn it resolves, assuming you have :r::w: to do so.
Sunforger is also able to E Tutor for Wheel to go off the next turn, assuming you have 4 mana available.

A tutorable way to destroy annoying artifacts (e.g. Chalice for 2) or enchantments (Counterbalance) might be good, too. I'm thinking about Orim's Thunder or Abolish.

From what i understand your are allowed to get Research // Development with Sunforge.
1 part is Red, its instant and 1 part is CMC less then 4.

TBH the final fortune and angelsgrace seem to be the best combo for a aggro deck. Final Fortune does have it function outside of the combo after all.

[Tacosnape]

What about something along the lines of like, Blood Lust/Fatal Frenzy/Double Cleave? Lust a Puresteel Paladin to 6/1, Fatal Frenzy him for 12/1 Trample, Double Cleave him, re-attach the Sunforger, and you've got a 16/1 Double Strike Trample guy.

[Rizso]

That move does require 8 mana thought.

[Barook]

What about something along the lines of like, Blood Lust/Fatal Frenzy/Double Cleave? Lust a Puresteel Paladin to 6/1, Fatal Frenzy him for 12/1 Trample, Double Cleave him, re-attach the Sunforger, and you've got a 16/1 Double Strike Trample guy.
Fists of the Anvil might be better than Blood Lust.

Should work:

1. Start with the typical :w::w::r: from lands.
2. Grab Seething Song, grab Manamorphose, resulting in RRRRWW.
3. Grab another Manamorphose (RRRWWW). Now you can pull all three spells required.

[Lusian]

yhea but cleave can go into the song/call/morph combo so it goes like

(wwr in pool) fetch song
(wrrrrr in pool) fetch manamorphose
(wwrrrr in pool) fetch song
(wrrrrrrrr in pool) fetch mana morphose
(wwrrrrrrrr in pool) fetch manamorphose
(wwwrrrrrr in pool) fetch eladamri's call for stoneforge
(wwrrrrr in pool) play stoneforge for sword of what ever
(wrrrr in pool) play sword of what ever
(wr in pool) fetch for double cleave
equip paladin so he is a 8/4 double strik with protection from what ever creature the opponent has becourse of the sword and swing for 16 (shoot him in the head for 4 if the sword is fire and ice)

[Barook]

yhea but cleave can go into the song/call/morph combo so it goes like

(wwr in pool) fetch song
(wrrrrr in pool) fetch manamorphose
(wwrrrr in pool) fetch song
(wrrrrrrrr in pool) fetch mana morphose
(wwrrrrrrrr in pool) fetch manamorphose
(wwwrrrrrr in pool) fetch eladamri's call for stoneforge
(wwrrrrr in pool) play stoneforge for sword of what ever
(wrrrr in pool) play sword of what ever
(wr in pool) fetch for double cleave
equip paladin so he is a 8/4 double strik with protection from what ever creature the opponent has becourse of the sword and swing for 16 (shoot him in the head for 4 if the sword is fire and ice)
That does sound workable while reducing the junk in the deck.

Would it be worth it to splash green and run a full set of Call, though?

[Lusian]

i think that 3-4 eladamri's call is a good call and it does tricks with vial too and it can tutor for any part of the combo when it works with stoneforge

[Barook]

Now that the entire spoiler is known, we should discuss the new cards:

Batterskull :5:
Artifact - Equipment
Living weapon
Equipped creature gets +4/+4 and has vigilance and lifelink.
:3:: Return Batterskull to its owner's hand.
Equip :5:

Looks like a good tutor target for Stoneforge Mystic.

Should Mental Misstep be run as well?

I found a way to make Tacosnape's combo more efficient - Colossal Might gives 4 power and trample, ending in a 10/2 trampling double striker. That's a two card combo that requires only 2 activations, meaning you can also cut down the number of Seething Songs.

[Hunding Gjornersen]

Naya Charm supports both the aggro and combo strategies and provides a lot of utility.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Great find Barook and Tacosnape! Finally, we are able to exclude dead cards (Seething Song, Manamorphose to a less extent) from the combo. Here is a decklist I brewed. Testing will show if 17 creatures are enough.

4 Kor Duelist / Mother of Runes
4 Porcelain Legionnaire / Phyrexian Revoker
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Paradise Mantle
2 Bone Splitter
1 Cranial Plating
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sunforger
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull

4 Swords to Plowshares / Mental Misstep
1 Hide // Seek
1 Colossal Might
1 Double Cleave

3 Mox Opal
4 Ancient Den
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand

[Barook]

With the combo reduced, I see less reason to make red the main splash, especially with Manamorphose being castable with green mana as well.

I'm leaning towards a green splash for at least Noble Hierarch and Pridemage. The deck is mana-hungy and Hierarch helps in that regard. Pridemage is an outlet against artifacts and enchantments. Both also greatly boost (equipped) single attackers, especially Mirran Crusader because Exalted doesn't target.

[tsabo_tavoc]

With the combo reduced, I see less reason to make red the main splash, especially with Manamorphose being castable with green mana as well.

I'm leaning towards a green splash for at least Noble Hierarch and Pridemage. The deck is mana-hungy and Hierarch helps in that regard. Pridemage is an outlet against artifacts and enchantments. Both also greatly boost (equipped) single attackers, especially Mirran Crusader because Exalted doesn't target.

You are right this is almost a white weenie deck. However, unless the Sunforger combo is dropped, RRWW is still needed on the combo turn and Noble Hierarch does not help. Paradise Mantle, on the other hand, produces red and synergises for being an artifact and an equipment. That said, Mantle is a less reliable accelerant especially for my creature curve (4 1cc; 12 2cc). Qasali Priedemage, Knight of the Reliquary and Mirran Crusader are great GW Maverick dudes (how wonderful nobody mentioned Tarmogoyf in this thread), however, they don't fit the curve (Knight does not have good synergy either). Let's face it, we have 8 fixed 2cc creatures (Paladin and Mystic), leaving Qasali Priedemage competing with Porcelain Legionnaire / Phyrexian Revoker which are artifacts. 3cc is too costly for a creature as the 3rd turn is to deploy Equipments and I could barely find any reason why Crusader is better than Kor Duelist in Equipment-heavy builds.

[Alexeezay]

I really love this deck idea with all the 1-offs and such.

Can you guys put up testing results, be it online or on paper when New Phyrexia is out?

[Barook]

I was thinking about something like this:

1 Plains
4 Ancient Den
4 Tree of Tales
4 Savannah
3 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Plateau

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Puresteel Paladin
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mox Opal
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sunforger
1 Double Cleave
1 Colossal Might
1 Manamorphose

Main problem right now is squeezing in Mother of Runes somewhere.

@tsabo_tavoc: You only need one red mana, the other can be provided by Manamorphose at no further cost. Seems to be at least a more reasonsable solution than having :r::r: available. Crusader is also better in this context because he doesn't require equipment to be good and has excellent synergy with the Exalted guys.

[unicoerner]

Is there right now another good compact combo with Sunforger? Cleave and Might seem so off for this deck

[mistercakes]

Are the artifact lands only for cranial plating or is it wrong to play a shrapnel blast?

[workingdude]

Are the artifact lands only for cranial plating or is it wrong to play a shrapnel blast?

I think it is to ensure metalcraft with the puresteel paladin

[median]

What about volcanic geyser as a wincon. If you wanted to lower the number of seething songs and manamorphose you could run a singleton krosan reclamation

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/ferventchampion.jpg

Epic necro time!

A quick research gave me Invigorated Rampage + Armed // Dangerous + reequip Sunforger as a way to get a 10/1 double strike trampler.

[morgan_coke]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/ferventchampion.jpg

Epic necro time!

A quick research gave me Invigorated Rampage + Armed // Dangerous + reequip Sunforger as a way to get a 10/1 double strike trampler.

Doesn't work. Armed//Dangerous has a cmc of 6 now. Part of the As Foretold rules update.

[Glass House]

Not to mention that Armed/Dangerous are both sorceries, and Sunforger only grabs instants. This is often overlooked.
But fear not, Uncaged Fury fits the bill.

[FTW]

I thought Necropotence was banned

Champion is enough to make this deck consistent though.


//Creatures: 22
4 Fervent Champion
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Puresteel Paladin
3 Spellskite
3 Mirran Crusader

//Artifacts: 8
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sunforger
1 Batterskull

//Instants: 10
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Lightning Helix
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Manamorphose
1 Invigorated Rampage
1 Uncaged Fury
1 Seething Song

//Mana: 20
3 Mox Opal
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Den
4 Arid Mesa
1 Prismatic Vista
2 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Plains


Artifacts: 22. Is that enough for Metalcraft?

Curve:
0: 3
1: 16
2: 16
3: 7
4: 0
5: 1


Combo:
Tap for RWW -> Seething Song -> Manamorphose into WW -> Invigorated Rampage -> Uncaged Fury -> Attack for 10 double strike trample

Other card choices:
Spellskite - Protection. Increase artifact count.

Aether Vial - Cheat out creatures, saving mana for equip and abilities. Increases artifact count

Unexpectedly Absent - Spot removal for any type of permanent that could disrupt you

Lightning Helix - Burn + lifegain

Jitte, SoFaI, Batterskull - Other Stoneforge targets without the combo

Stoneforge - equipment tutor

Mother of Ruins - Protection

Mirran Crusader - Alternate win condition. Sunforger + Crusader is 12 double strike. Rampage + Crusader is 12 double strike trample. Protection from Goyfs and Anglers.

[bruizar]

Goblin Engineer is also a viable option next to Stoneforge Mystic. You might be able to run a transformational equipment storm deck.

[Barook]

Goblin Engineer is also a viable option next to Stoneforge Mystic. You might be able to run a transformational equipment storm deck.
Sounds like a good back-up plan, especially if your opponent manages to destroy Sunforger.

@FTW: Is Puresteel Paladin still worth the investment with the Metalcraft requirement, at least as a 4-of? Wouldn't Imperial Recruiter provide more flexibility?

Food for thought: With Goblin Engineer, running a single copy of Isochron Scepter as tutor target might be viable, depending on the instant count you can imprint. Mom + Spellkite can even protect it from removal spells.

[FTW]

Sounds like a good back-up plan, especially if your opponent manages to destroy Sunforger.

@FTW: Is Puresteel Paladin still worth the investment with the Metalcraft requirement, at least as a 4-of? Wouldn't Imperial Recruiter provide more flexibility?

True, the metalcraft requirement is hard and makes the manabase worse. You could have Imperial Recruiter or Recruiter of the Guard with some singleton targets like 1 Puresteel Paladin, 1 Goblin Engineer, maybe 1 Palace Jailer.

The only problem with that is tempo. Paladin curves out well with equipment. T2 Paladin. T3 equipment, draw a card, equip for 0, attack for value. Playing Recruiter into Champion/Paladin is 2 turns slower, even if it is more consistent. The deck needs something else at 2cc then. Or 3-4 Ancient Tomb to skip the curve.

[rufus]

True, the metalcraft requirement is hard and makes the manabase worse. You could have Imperial Recruiter or Recruiter of the Guard with some singleton targets like 1 Puresteel Paladin, 1 Goblin Engineer, maybe 1 Palace Jailer. ...

Kazuul's Toll Collector seems like it's easier to set up, but the mana cost isn't great.

[Barook]

Or 3-4 Ancient Tomb to skip the curve.
What if you also run 4x Boros Signet? Or you go really deep, skip the artifact lands, run Snow basics and Astrolab in addition to Signet instead.

The beauty about that is they fix your mana, count as artifacts if you need them for Puresteel and with one of those filter rocks in play, you only require RW to go off:

RW --> Seething Song --> (filter -> RRRRW) ---> Manamorphose (RRRWW) --> Invigorated Rampage --> Uncaged Fury

With enough Manamorphose copies, you could even become a Blood Moon deck in theory. How to fit all of that in one deck is a different question, though.

I do like the idea of Signet + Astrolab + Sol lands, though, as it might be a very synergistic approach. Best case scenario would probably be something like this:

T1: Sol land, Signet
T2: land, drop Fervent Champion and Sunforger, swing for 5.
T3: go off as long as you have a way to get an additional white aside from the Signet in play.

Fervent Champion with any early equipment seems pretty silly in general.

Edit: With a high enough human count, a bunch of Caverns might be a good idea, too, as long as filter rocks do their job.

[FTW]

Hmm what can we do with this.


//Lands: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Arid Mesa
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Snow-Covered Plains

//Artifacts: 13
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Boros Signet
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Sunforger

//Creatures: 17
4 Fervent Champion
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Puresteel Paladin
2 Spellskite
3 Kazuul's Toll Collector
2 Mirran Crusader

//Spells: 10
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Lightning Helix
1 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Manamorphose
1 Invigorated Rampage
1 Uncaged Fury
1 Seething Song

//Sideboard:
3 Blood Moon
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Batterskull
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Damping Sphere
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben


This is more focused on the combo, with less plan B.

Toll Collector is easier to curve out with this manabase.

[zyren]

What about repeated reverberation and boros charm?

assuming a 1 power creature with sunforger and equip 0:

Tap for RWW -> Seething Song -> Manamorphose -> repeated reverberation -> boros charm is 12 direct damage, can be lethal
Tap for RWW -> Seething Song -> Manamorphose -> repeated reverberation -> invigorated rampage leads to a 17 power trampler

if we have multiple manamorphose and repeated reverberationsin the deck:

Tap for RWW -> Seething Song -> Manamorphose into WW -> repeated reverberation -> manamorphose -> lightning helix -> boros charm -> invigorated rampage -> attack for 9 trample double strike, 3 damage support to get rid of a creature or to secure lethal
Tap for RWW -> Seething Song -> Manamorphose into WW -> repeated reverberation -> manamorphose -> repeated reverberation -> boros charm -> invigorated rampage -> 12 direct damage, attack for 9 trample
Tap for RWW -> Seething Song -> Manamorphose into WW -> repeated reverberation -> manamorphose -> repeated reverberation -> invigorated rampage -> boros charm -> attack with 17 power trample double strike
Tap for RWW -> Seething Song -> Manamorphose into WW -> repeated reverberation -> manamorphose -> repeated reverberation -> repeated reverberation -> boros charm -> 24 direct damage

I think having a couple manamorphose and boros charm regardless secures a bit of redundancy in case we get in hand and really need to use it early or they get discarded by the opponent.