[Deck] Painter-Stone

[door]

So, MMS is banned. That essentially re-kills Hive Mind. We can be a deck again. What do we put in MMS' place?

I wouldn't be so sure. It was not a big deal with a tormod's crypt in the maindeck. And I'm not sure that hive mind relies on MM so much. As I know some players successfully played without MMs.

The main problem as I see it, is that zoo is going to return. One of the worst matchups for us will become harder without MM for all that 1-mana removal spells. And I cannot think of anything that could replace MM. Perhaps it's time to play spellskite in the maindeck.

[PanderAlexander]

So, MMS is banned. That essentially re-kills Hive Mind. We can be a deck again. What do we put in MMS' place?

I haven't tested Hive Mind without MMS so I'm only assuming the deck will be fine since it still has 4x FoW and 4x PoN to push its combo through. But that was really a easy matchup for Painter anyways.

As for the MMS banning, losing it hurts Painter more than it helps since it was a real boon for the deck. Like Door said, a lot of the 1-mana removal spells will be harder to deal with. Painter has been out of the spotlight lately but I think it can be good again so I may put it back together or not. The last tournament I played the deck, I was the only Painter player out of 50 people and I faced a Rock deck running one Gaea's Blessing in the SB and a Dredge running one Darksteel Colossus in the SB.

[Di]

Losing Misstep indeed hurts Painter a bit, but can be partially offset by running 3-4 Spellskite maindeck. Misstep's best use in Painter was to nerf Swords to Plowshares, and Spellskite does that really well, in addition to being insane in many other ways. Most lists already ran ~2 of them anyway in their 75, so it's rather logical to just bump them up.

But I think the glaring problem the banning of Misstep creates is the effect it has on the deck's blue count for FoW. I tend to not count Painter's ability towards this as Force usually helps resolve it in the first place, so I do think we'll likely have to add in other blue cards to make up for the loss. Most lists ran 15-16 blue cards between FoW, Misstep, Brainstorm, and Intuition/Transmute Artifact, which is pushing it already, so to lose 25% of that is rough. In order to get good value for FoW, there will have to be an additional blue card put into the deck, whether it's Trinket Mage, Thirst for Knowledge, Misdirection, etc., otherwise it'll most likely be dead half the time.

I also think it makes a bit more sense to maindeck REBs now again, although I'm not sure if they're necessarily better than Spellskite, and it doesn't really solve the issue of the blue count for FoW.

[Sintheros]

Then lets go back to an older style list. Nothing's stopping us from REBing STP once we resolve Painter.


4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone

4 Goblin Welder
2 Trinket Mage

3 Mox Opal
4 Sensei's Divning Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Volcanic Island
5 Fetchlands
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Island


That leaves two spots to fill.

[PanderAlexander]

I like the list Sintheros, my biggest concern like Di pointed out is the blue count without having to rely on Painter. Those last two open slots will have to be blue, which will put it at the bare minimum 16 blue cards. They could probably be Transmute Artifacts or Misdirections.

[keys]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. Banning MM is a HUGE gain for Painter. The card took up slots that blasts do better. Now we don't have to worry as much about any of our insane turn 1 plays getting countered for 2 life. Metalcraft will be easier. Welder will stick. Turn 2-3 kills will be possible again. MM slowed Painter down considerably, allowing the opponent too much time to find removal/artifact hate.

Regarding the blue count, FoW is usually protection for Painter once it hits the battlefield and when you activate Grindstone. The blasts are there to push it through counters, and then deal with problem permanents. You're not going to lose to counterspells post board when you have 5+ blasts. I have no problem playing FoW with 14-16 blue spells for this reason.

Sintheros, your list is only a few cards off mine. I use Transmute Artifact instead of Trinket Mage, since it gets both sides of the combo, as well as silver bullets like Ensnaring Bridge and Sundial of the Infinite, which are necessary if you want to beat Hive Mind (and potentially Solidarity if that deck takes off because of Snapcaster Mage). I play Bridge and Tormod's Crypt in the 2 open slots you mentioned, with another Crypt and Sundial in the board. I'm also playing the 4th blast over the LED.

[PanderAlexander]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. Banning MM is a HUGE gain for Painter. The card took up slots that blasts do better. Now we don't have to worry as much about any of our insane turn 1 plays getting countered for 2 life. Metalcraft will be easier. Welder will stick. Turn 2-3 kills will be possible again. MM slowed Painter down considerably, allowing the opponent too much time to find removal/artifact hate.


That's the initial thought by most and what I thought when MMS was first spoiled, but after playing extensively the pre-MMS and post-MMS lists, the lists with MMS were simply much better. I don't think Painter ever had trouble with the blue decks that ran MMS since they were slow and gave us a lot of time to setup. Whereas the inclusion of MMS in our lists helped with the matchups that didn't run it (I.E. Zoo, TES, Junk, Burn, etc). I'll gladly fight my opponents MMS over Lightning Bolts, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exiles, and Chain Lightnings. It's easy to say "just drop a Painter naming blue and blast any removal", but many times you're on a clock against those decks and need to tap out and that free MMS shows its worth in spades.

[keys]

(I.E. Zoo, TES, Junk, Burn, etc)

None of those decks except Zoo were a significant part of the metagame post NPH. Our problem matchups were NO RUG and Hive Mind.

MM did nothing against Hive Mind except counter their own MMs. NO RUG just had too many answers (burn, blasts, Grudge) for MM to make a difference.

The way I see it, all the DTB lose MM and pick up Spell Pierce, Daze, and/or Spell Snare, which are significantly less offensive on our turn 1. We lose MM and pick up blasts, which are slightly slower but much more versatile; they give us more outs to permanents like Energy Flux, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Leyline of Sanctity, and the new white Null Rod enchantment. Any of these, if unanswered, are GG. I'd rather fight through Lightning Bolts, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exiles, and Chain Lightnings than any of those.

Basically, I'm just happy I don't have to play MM to beat MM anymore.

[Sintheros]

Basically this. Painter w/MMS is better than Painter w/o MMS. However, Painter w/o MMS is better vs a metagame w/o MMS than Painter w/MMS is against a metagame w/MMS. If you know what I mean. We're better positioned now. Plus we still get Spellskite out of the deal to throw in against Zoo and Burn and nonsense like that.

[deadlock]

It is pointless to discuss which version is better in a vacuum and has to be considered in relation to other / future metagame decks as pointed out.

In regard to the 4 free slots, I agree that it is a good idea to play at least three blue spells in these slots for a total of 16 blue cards. Before the banning I played Wilson Hunters GP list, which I considered to be perfect (the maindeck). The cards I consider for the open slots are:
- Misdirection
- Transmute Artifact
- LED
- Blast

I will start my testing with +2 Misdirection, +1 Transmute Artifact and either the third Blast or the second LED. Relying heavily on Blasts in the maindeck is a mistake in my opinion, but running three is still okay (opposed to 4-5). Going for a speed build with the second (and maybe even a third LED) doesnt look that good either, as it is very all-inish in many cases. So I lean towards the third Blast, also considering that Merfolk and CB might rise. Is there a good reason to run Trinket Mage over Transmute? While TA is card disadvantage, it tutors for both pieces and is another Welder enabler.

Finally I think that running Spellskite in the maindeck is a poor choice compared to Misdirection, which is much faster and versatile. While Spellskite can be amazing, I am concerned that it is dead in some matchups. I might be wrong and I would like to hear some reasoning behind Spellskite compared to the other possibilties.

EDIT: I forgot about Spell Pierce, which is a good choice in my opinion. I currently run 2 Misdirection and 2 Spell Pierce in the MM slots.

[Whippoorwill]

I've generally been happy with Spellskite. The last time I played the deck it ate a Pridemage that would have otherwise killed off one of my combo pieces. It also acted as a wall which slowed my opponent down til I could combo out. As for Misdirection, I like it better as a sideboard option due to the limited uses. Sure its nice when you redirect your opponent's spells to hurt them instead, but quite often it can be a dead card or a pitch card to FoW (Does nothing against Pridemage, Natural Order or SnT for example). Granted Spellskite doesn't do anything against NO or SnT either, but it can be used with Transmute Artifact, Thirst and Welder to get something more useful at least.

In that same Match (Game 2 though) Transmute Artifact ended up being the MVP. My opponent had 2 Pridemages and TA resolved getting me Pithing Needle which shut down the Cats.


Current List I'm running:

2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Brainstorm
3 Mental Misstep
3 Transmute Artifact
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Force of Will

3 Mox Opal
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Sideboard:
1 Mental Misstep
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Duplicant
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

The last 3 spots of the SB are flex spots and change depending on what I think I'll need for the night (Llawan, etc).

For me, I'll have to replace the Missteps with something Blue to keep my blue count up, so I was considering Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm depending on what becomes popular in my meta.

Also semi-considering 1-2 Laboratory Maniac as an alternate win condition. Or possibly 2-3 Vendilion Clique and taking out the Wurmcoil from main.

Edit While Posting:

Looking over the Innistrad Spoiler, would this be worth considering:

Memory's Journey 1U
Instant
Target player shuffles up to 3 target cards from their graveyard into their library.
Flashback: G

Seems like a decent blue card against Dredge early on and can shuffle back stuff from our own graveyards (Mainly non-artifacts).

[deadlock]

Whippoorwill I dont agree with your build as you are running alot of cards which are sideboard material / missing cards. Also posting a pre MM banning list doesnt make a lot of sense to begin with ;)

Some comments:
- Its okay to cut City with 3 TA, but I disagree with the basic mountain. The 6th Fetch is the better choice here.
- Spellskite is dead in a couple of matchups, I prefer to run more business instead.
- Wurmcoil without Grim doesnt seem too hot.
- Thirst is more of a control card then a combo card, the cardadvantage is nice, but we want to win quickly.
- No Intuition is a huge mistake imo, this card is a core card of Welder Painter.
- Tormods and Bridge, both good cards but also dead in a lot of cases. Perfectly fine to run them in the board.
- The 4th SDT should also be in your deck, considering the huge synergy and as a Mox Opal enabler.

Currently I see two approaches to this deck. The first one is to simply replace the MM with other protections spells like Misdirection and Spell Pierce, while the second one is to run the Transmute package, which implies to run less protection, but more business.

My current approach to the second option:
3 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb

3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Wurmcoil Engine (I consider moving it to the side, as an alt win is not strictly required maindeck. Instead I probably would add the second Misdirection).

4 Goblin Welder
4 Intuition
3 Transmute Artifact

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection

Preliminary board:
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 3 Spellskite

Key points of this list are:
- 16 blue cards to support FoW.
- 7 tutors with 3 Grim Monolith to support TA and to enable Wurmcoil.
- TA based silver bullet SB.

[TheProfessor]

Waw i've been gone for a quite a while @.@

Need to catch up on whats happened.

I like your design deadlock. You plan on playing that anytime soon? Would love to hear your experience with that in a post-mm world?

Its basically tuned towards accomplishing the combo how about protection for the combo? We sorta dropped the rebs and stuff? Do you think that is a problem?

[deadlock]

Welcome back! I plan to play Painter on the next local tournament in my area, yes. But I havent decided upon on which build. Currently I have to prepare for an examination, therefore my testing time is limited, but in a week or so I will have plenty of time.

As I said, the list posted is just one approach (business heavy, protection light).
My other list is basically Wilson Hunters GP list -4 MM +2 Spell Pierce +2 Misdirection with the Show And Tell Plan in the side.
Would be glad to hear opinions from others, in order to focus testing on one particular direction.

[TheProfessor]

Thats great deadlock! Please share your experience here in the forums when you do. Would be awesome to hear about it.

Actually I feel that Wilson's list is one of better ones -LED, is pierce better than a REB/Pyro? Misdirection I can understand since we have to deal with more removal now such as dismember.

The SnT plan seems workable still I think. However I think we can do some sort of "MUD" type side board? (i'm just throwing ideas out there :D)

[Solthos]

Is a transformational SB to Hive Mind Viable? Adding maybe 2-3 Pact of Negations in the MB and then having the set of Hive Mind + Red Pacts off the board?

Or do you guys think its too janky?

[Seems Good]

I've always been very interested in this archetype and I'm considering building in for the upcoming meta that's about to unfold.

Concerning transformational sideboards: I've heard bomberman is the best option for this. Anyone have thoughts/opinions? I suppose you need to be running LED main, right?

[Sintheros]

I've always been very interested in this archetype and I'm considering building in for the upcoming meta that's about to unfold.

Concerning transformational sideboards: I've heard bomberman is the best option for this. Anyone have thoughts/opinions? I suppose you need to be running LED main, right?

If you're running a transformational sideboard, definitely do bomberman over SNT/Emrakul. Too many people are gunning for that. You should try to run a single LED main anyway - if you have a welder in play and go EOT intuition for LED/Painter/Stone you just flat out win. Then you can just side the LED out if you're planning on a slower game 2.

[Sloshthedark]

@Deadlock - I'm not fan of TA based lists (inconsistent UU, slower, card disadvantage), but 7 tutor build is tempting... you should definitely run 1 bridge, I most truly believe its and imperative to run 1 in any build of Intuition based Painter (and even more in SB), I play it 4 months as a 61st card and have never regretted it, it randomly kills or considerably slows down half of decks and is excellent in Intuition pile...

@Seems good - Bomberman seems bad... in fact it is bad, uberbad, the combo dies to same hate, you splash a color, its untutorable and hard to protect by itself... SnT is a dead-end plan as all white decks run karakas some with Kotr on the top, but is good in some matchups at least, Bomberman... I can't think about matchup i would even like to run it...


In present I'm testing heretic idea of not playing FoW at all.. It's card disadvantage and only time its good is protecting the combo... I hate it in opening hand unless I have T1 painter as I have to pitch better cards into it, is bad topdeck and has limited utility... I test more Blasts and Fire/ice instead (main reason Grim lavamancer and Dark Confidant, great versatility) and the deck is successful (XX games on MWS) and won last M-league trial with it (stifle build)... I don't say you should play like it, its just out-of-the-box idea to consider yourselves...

and other tech - try Jaya in SB its great with control/chalice and games you are hiding behind bridges and spellkites // Inkwell leviathan vs any extirpate.dec if playing multiple LEDs

[death]

@Slosh - what do you board out when you put in Jaya/Bridge/Spellskites?

also, why Fire/Ice over Lightning Bolt?

[Seems Good]

Just finishing up my first list now. Is Grim necessary? Also I'm having a tough time deciding between Bridge/Crypt/Wurmcoil main or board. With TA it's so tempting to play one-of's

Thoughts anyone?


//Lands
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb

//Spells
3 Mox Opal
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Goblin Welder
4 Intuition
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Red Elemental Blast

//Sideboard
3 Pyroblast
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
1 Pithing Needle
3 Fire
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Spellskite

[keys]

If you want to play Wurmcoil... Grim's are pretty necessary.

[Sloshthedark]

@death 2 jaya = 2 blasts unless its blue super-heavy ... the rest is different with every deck, usually 1 mox, 1 led, fire/ice, stifle if I'm oriented for long game behind the bridge brainstorms (or few intuitions with black) since its just cantrip with no hand...

Fire/ice is more versatile, can kill problematic creature (read confidant, pridemage) and still can operate in role blast would - eliminate 1 open mana but eot and without painter .. pitches to Fow.. if i played it =) .. and when I realized it can have more than 2 targets... i like the card as current builds lack moment of surprise and tend to drop LED which is really bad direction in my eyes

[Patrunkenphat7]

Hey guys,
I'm Wilson - I have been gone from the forums for quite a while! (new job, new puppy, married, ect... haha) I would love to get back into playtesting this deck. Miser Misdirection in the maindeck seems solid, although I can't confirm this with any kind of testing. Spellskite seems sick, although I know it is a controversial and sometimes dead card. It just seems amazing against all those cards that are hard to deal with. I am not opposed to Show and Tell package in the SB for certain events like Starcity, and I might play. I really don't like losing to bad Burn decks...

[TheProfessor]

Hi Wilson!

Congratulations on getting married man :D How you been? Hows the dog? and Hows married life?

I think you and I have had a pretty long hiatus in the forums.

At the moment this is what I'm getting

1.) Spellskite works well.
2.) Misdirection works but not as often as we want it.
3.) Meta has gotten faster now that MM is gone
4.) SnT packages are still good but were trying to find a better alternative if any?
5.) Congratulations to Max Jacob on his placing on SCG! WOHOO Go Painter (lol)

[Sloshthedark]

unfortunately Max Jacob played Merfolks in front of the camera so wrong list got published or wrong name was in the match, Jacob Baugh played S&T painter in a another feature match so maybe its his...

[lordofthepit]

This was a DTB several months ago, before Mental Misstep got printed. Ostensibly, it seems like Mental Misstep hurt this deck more than it helped it, considering it runs several very important 1-drops (Welder, Top, Grindstone), and the recent banning of Mental Misstep should propel this deck back to Tier 1 status.

However, I think that the rise of Surgical Extraction as a popular piece of graveyard hate from the sideboard in this metagame can also be pretty brutal to this deck. Whereas traditional graveyard hate like Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus did little to affect the deck, a well-timed Surgical Extraction can knock out your entire combo. The opponent only has to counter, destroy, or force you to discard either combo piece and follow it up with a resolved Surgical Extraction to completely take away the combo. Moreover, even if your opponent fails to do so, the deck remains somewhat reliant on the graveyard since it often relies on Welder, Intuition, or occasionally, even milling one's self with Grindstone.

Am I overstating the impact of Surgical Extraction? If not, is it time to take this deck in a slightly different direction (i.e. include a Transmute Artifact->Robot piece maindeck in case the primary combo gets knocked out, not only by Surgical Extraction, but also by previously existing avenues of hate).

[sdematt]

I've been playing the following list to excellent results:

4 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Inkwell Leviathan

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Transmute Artifact
3 Intuition
3 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Opal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thirst for Knowledge

Thoughts or suggestions? Most of the Spellskite and REB stuff is in the board.

[Seems Good]

Plan for Inkwell is to Intuition/Xmute/Thirst for knowledge it into the yard then weld it out? How well has this been working for you?

Maindeck no REB/Pyro working ok?

[sdematt]

So far, so good. It's nice to be able to have the ability to use Grim as a Transmute target for the combo, as well. Transmuting an active Grim into Painter is game, and most people don't count it out. You don't pay any difference, and you float three mana for activation. Or, Transmute Opal for LED and win. Seems good, once again, plus they can't do anything once it's resolved (unless they muck your Servant).

Grim is also really good in terms of Weld in a Grim for 3 extra mana? Weld a tapped one for an untapped one? I'm in! :)

Having the extra out of Inkwell has also been useful, since sometimes you can bait removal on Welder instead of an upcoming Servant if you've dropped fatties in the yard. Or, if you manage to get Inkwell out, they can never really remove it. Grinding advantage with Wurmcoil against aggro is so dirty; the lifelink and creation of tokens is brutal against aggro. Ideally though, I'd love to have Spellskites and REB's in the main, but just no room.

The Thirsts, although slow, have been really good, I have to say, and Transmute has been an all-star. I do miss more countermagic main, but oh well.

-Matt

[Sintheros]

61 card maindeck makes me sad. Something has to be unnecessary here.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Hi Wilson!

Congratulations on getting married man :D How you been? Hows the dog? and Hows married life?

I think you and I have had a pretty long hiatus in the forums.

At the moment this is what I'm getting

1.) Spellskite works well.
2.) Misdirection works but not as often as we want it.
3.) Meta has gotten faster now that MM is gone
4.) SnT packages are still good but were trying to find a better alternative if any?
5.) Congratulations to Max Jacob on his placing on SCG! WOHOO Go Painter (lol)

Thanks, man! Married life is quite fun :smile:

I went 6-2 at Starcity Nashville Open with this deck, finishing 19th (bad tiebreakers due to losing relatively early).

W 2-0 Merfolk
L 0-2 Reanimator
W 2-0 U/R Painter (exact 75 card mirror against my friend...)
L 0-2 Merfolk
W 2-0 U/W Counterbalance
W 2-0 RUG Tempo
W 2-0 Merfolk
W 2-0 High Tide

Round 4 was the first time I ever lost to Merfolk in a tournament - simply terrible draws. Reanimator was winnable, but we both flooded out, and he got what he needed first. His triple Thoughtseize opener really slowed down the game.

I still feel great about this deck in the metagame. I felt like my draws were average overall, and I ended up winning 75% of the rounds. With a little luck in draws and matchups, this deck is in a great position to make some top 8's.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Thanks, man! Married life is quite fun :smile:

I went 6-2 at Starcity Nashville Open with this deck, finishing 19th (bad tiebreakers due to losing relatively early).

W 2-0 Merfolk
L 0-2 Reanimator
W 2-0 U/R Painter (exact 75 card mirror against my friend...)
L 0-2 Merfolk
W 2-0 U/W Counterbalance
W 2-0 RUG Tempo
W 2-0 Merfolk
W 2-0 High Tide

Round 4 was the first time I ever lost to Merfolk in a tournament - simply terrible draws. Reanimator was winnable, but we both flooded out, and he got what he needed first. His triple Thoughtseize opener really slowed down the game.

I still feel great about this deck in the metagame. I felt like my draws were average overall, and I ended up winning 75% of the rounds. With a little luck in draws and matchups, this deck is in a great position to make some top 8's.

Did you end up playing a similar list like you used at the GP or did you use the Show and Tell package?

[keys]

So far, so good. It's nice to be able to have the ability to use Grim as a Transmute target for the combo, as well. Transmuting an active Grim into Painter is game, and most people don't count it out. You don't pay any difference, and you float three mana for activation. Or, Transmute Opal for LED and win. Seems good, once again, plus they can't do anything once it's resolved (unless they muck your Servant).

Grim is also really good in terms of Weld in a Grim for 3 extra mana? Weld a tapped one for an untapped one? I'm in! :)

Having the extra out of Inkwell has also been useful, since sometimes you can bait removal on Welder instead of an upcoming Servant if you've dropped fatties in the yard. Or, if you manage to get Inkwell out, they can never really remove it. Grinding advantage with Wurmcoil against aggro is so dirty; the lifelink and creation of tokens is brutal against aggro. Ideally though, I'd love to have Spellskites and REB's in the main, but just no room.

The Thirsts, although slow, have been really good, I have to say, and Transmute has been an all-star. I do miss more countermagic main, but oh well.

-Matt

I don't really understand why you play Inkwell over Myr Battlesphere. The latter is virtually as good against Jace and Swords to Plowshares, while also being much easier to cast/transmute, and a whole turn faster.

[TheProfessor]

Thanks, man! Married life is quite fun :smile:

I went 6-2 at Starcity Nashville Open with this deck, finishing 19th (bad tiebreakers due to losing relatively early).

W 2-0 Merfolk
L 0-2 Reanimator
W 2-0 U/R Painter (exact 75 card mirror against my friend...)
L 0-2 Merfolk
W 2-0 U/W Counterbalance
W 2-0 RUG Tempo
W 2-0 Merfolk
W 2-0 High Tide

Round 4 was the first time I ever lost to Merfolk in a tournament - simply terrible draws. Reanimator was winnable, but we both flooded out, and he got what he needed first. His triple Thoughtseize opener really slowed down the game.

I still feel great about this deck in the metagame. I felt like my draws were average overall, and I ended up winning 75% of the rounds. With a little luck in draws and matchups, this deck is in a great position to make some top 8's.


That is Great man! congratulations on getting married and your placing on the Nashville event.

SO your the guy who reached top 20 in nashville. I was chatting with somebody the other day and they were saying they saw a Painter deck in nashville but just missed the top 16 by a bit!

What list were you playing? (same as before?)

By the way, great job on the tourney. Just curious. Did you happen to use Misdirections main? or SB?

What SB package you bring along with you?

Side note: Sorry Max Jacob did not play a painter deck. Wilson here actually was the one I heard about. Sorry for the wrong information.

[Sloshthedark]

@lordofthepit - well I'm bit worried about how many decks play Surgical Extraction since you always step into unknown waters G2 and playing around it is not that easy like into it.. and when even Zoo plays it... if this is a trend i will sleeve up my transmutes after all =/

why is it so popular anyway? and why some play it over Extirpate in a black deck is total mystery to me... It's worse than crypt against storm, reanimator, dredge (while Leyline of Sanctity is still not standard in the deck)... actually only good against painter and high tide maybe decent with threshold, pox and lands...

@sdematt - how's UB Ant and TES race with it?

@Patrunkenphat7 - that's unfortunate, losing to Merfolk always hurts.. I'm also curious what list you play...

[Patrunkenphat7]

Thanks, guys. Wish I could have done better though, seeing as the two friends who I went with top 16ed with Team America...

Here is the list I ran:

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant

2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
4 Intuition

2 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace

3 Blood Moon
3 Show and Tell
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Misdirection
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre

Notable changes:

2 LED instead of 1: I am a big fan of 1 LED in this deck, but I wanted to speed up the kill in this combo-heavy metagame. After playing 8 rounds, I feel neutral about my decision. I didn't outrace a combo deck because of LED, but LED did win a couple games when I needed to keep the kill open during their turn for protection when they untapped. It's hard to tell if this was correct or not; I will probably go back to one, but we will see how the metagame shifts.

1 Misdirection MD, 1 SB: I didn't see this enough to know how good it was. This card is SO much better against Merfolk now that they are running Dismember, and I like having another FoW for counter wars. It was good against the RUG tempo deck that packed Bolts and small creatures. I liked this overall.

2 Spell Pierce: Awesome. This was a great metagame choice, and I recommend this to people playing this deck right now. It helps a ton against Reanimator, Counterbalance, Team America, ect. Spell Pierce has more maindeck flexibility than more blasts in a fast metagame, and it helps pitch to FoW pre-Painter (which is certainly important). As a sidenote, the High Tide player never had a chance game 2 when my hand was 2 FoW, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Red Blast... Ouch.

2 Faerie Macabre SB: This was for Reanimator. I wish I had seen it against him... Oh well. Simply a metagame choice. The Tormod's Crypt was still in for Welder soft lock against Dredge. GY hate is always annoying, as I sided it in for only one round, and I didn't even see it.

Show and Tell package SB: I like this at Starcity events, smaller events, and really any event where you can't get byes and the competition isn't 'pro level.' I hate losing to Burn, and this combo destroys Zoo, a questionable matchup. This is obviously how I beat the Painter mirror. I didn't play this too much this time, but last time I went to a Starcity event I beat 2 Burn players and 1 Zoo player (Hatfield) with Show and Tell.

3 Blood Moon SB: This is good again. There is a good chance that I will up this to 4 and take out the miser SB Misdirection, as Blood Moon is a one card combo against decks that board in Pernicious Deed. Note that I beat the Counterbalance guy by landing a Blood Moon and Grindstoning him out the old fashioned way.

This deck is awesome! Just don't play against Elf combo decks with Emrakul maindeck and Null Rod in the board, and you will win lots of games :)

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

I have been thinking over painter's stone a little bit, and I was wondering what people thought about, instead of the emrakul show and tell alternate kill what about milling ourselves, into the win. In this case we could do it pretty easily with Laboratory maniac. The only issue is there is no easy way that I can think of off the top of my head to make welder get it back. I am sure there is a way.

[Vandalize]

I have been thinking over painter's stone a little bit, and I was wondering what people thought about, instead of the emrakul show and tell alternate kill what about milling ourselves, into the win. In this case we could do it pretty easily with Laboratory maniac. The only issue is there is no easy way that I can think of off the top of my head to make welder get it back. I am sure there is a way.

Grindstone would kill us right in the spot.

[Seems Good]

Tweaked my list a bit lately (cut xmute artifact) and i've been having a lot of luck. Current list is:


4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Opal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Intuition
4 Grindstone
1 Misdirection

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Ancient Tomb

13 Blue count is very low for Force but I haven't had issues with it. I kind of want to test 1 LED...i've heard its nuts. Thoughts?

[sdematt]

1 LED is nuts. I'd at least give it a try.

-Matt

[Sloshthedark]

even this thread is dead and I play Storm nowadays I have some sweet spot in my heart for the deck so I offer my past months development:


// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [A] Island (2)
1 [B] Mountain (3)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod
3 [MR] Great Furnace
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Badlands

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [IA] Pyroblast
3 [SOM] Mox Opal
3 [MR] Lightning Greaves
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TSP] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [NPH] Spellskite
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb


this list just ignores storm (3 extirpate+Tezz can be straight antistorm, but 4 does not really matter) and is relatively good with everything else, the downside deck is ok with long games so you often have to win the 1998 way against snapcaster+7removal.dec win g1 so you don't care... G2 is usually without Intuition, but you have many mustcounters and potentially deadly welder locks

No Force - admit it you don't need it 90% of time, LG>>>Fow in terms of protection and is synergetic with LED

Tezzeret - I was skeptical about this one, but proven to be a sweet alter wincon

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

I have been playing this for several months now, and I am reasonably happy with all of my non-RUG MUs. How do people feel about that fight? I have been having a lot of trouble.

I have been considering adding +1 Unburial Rites +1 Gigapede +1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind to the sideboard for this MU specifically, because I don't think there is any way that they can ever beat a sphinx of the steel wind in play, but I am not sure if putting all my eggs in one basket is the correct way to play the MU. If anyone has any tips on besting RUG with any version of the deck please let me know.

I currently am siding in spellskite x3 and bringing my total red blasts main up to 4 post board but that has not been enough to win the MU.

Other sideboard cards I have considered include:
Defense Grid
Propaganda
Ensnaring bridge
Trinisphere (and all the other tax sphere effects)

What have people found to be most effective.

Feel free to PM me if you want to chat privately.

[Kap'n Cook]

HELLLLOOO HElllooo Helloooo hellooo..........

damn so this thread is completely dead. After reading the latest Too Much Information article on SCG, I decided to go back looking at the prior ones. The most recent time painter (either version) was played was back in december prior to dark ascension. Is anyone out there still playing and testing?

[Wanderlust]

Love this deck, but it's poorly positioned right now. RUG Tempo, Maverick, and Stoneblade all play numerous ways to interact with us. All three matchups are bad. Painted Stone was good Jan. to Sept. 2011 because Merfolk was so present - Painted Stone destroys that deck since they play little to no removal and are weak to pyroblast. It could also beat the popular NO RUG - they played less disruption and a slower clock than today's RUG Tempo.

Edit: Forgot to mention that the now-popular Sneak and Show plays a natural foil to our strategy: Emrakul.

I'm sure it will come back around. This deck is way up there in terms of raw power.

[Bignasty197]

I went 2-1 at locals today with a version of Di's old Transmute Artifact list, losing to Sneak/Show(obviously) and beating Merfolk and Stoneblade. I actually won game 1 against S/S by Transmuting for an Ensaring Bridge while doing Welder tricks with Wurmcoil. They pretty much can't beat the maindeck Bridge. I lost the next 2 games to Chalice of the Void on turn 1 both games while I had Pithing Needle, Welder and Brainstorm in hand. For reference:

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Transmute Artifact
3 Mox Opal
2 Intuition
2 Grim Monolith
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Fabricate

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Volcanic Island
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Island
1 Mountain

[Kap'n Cook]

Perusing the GP Atlanta coverage I saw a picture of painter that had gitaxian probe, manamorphose, and gamble. Im guessing this was just a somewhat joke list (not really sure what the point was) but does anyone know why you would run those together? Deck thinning?

[jandax]

Borrowed Painter/Stone (w/ Recruiter) a week before Ghent and lost in the bubble for day two.

Perhaps this isn't the thread for it but it seems Blood Moon effects were boss. I read a few posts back that matchups like RUG, Maverick, etc were too interactive. Blood Moon turns that around. But it's not great for every Meta, any deck with red is bad to iffy.

4 Painter
4 Stone
4 Recruiter
3 Chrome Mox
2 Goblin Welder
3 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Gamble
4 REB
3 Pyroblast
1 Wurmcoil
1 Jaya Ballard
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus
2 Top

4 Fetch
4 Mountain
8 Sol Lands
3 Great Furnace

SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge, 3 Trinisphere, 3 Tormod's Crypt, 1 Welder, 1 Pyroblast, 2 Pyroclasm, 1 Metamorph, 1 Manic Vandal

I'm thinking the Pyroblast might be a little overkill, so it could potentially be swapped out for a more narrow option. Anarchy is available, played against Humility twice during grinders the day before. Koth could help in the matches where you play control and try to prison them. Main deck an extra welder for a blast effect, maybe.

At any rate, a local meta is different to that of a GP. Loved the deck, can't wait to play it again

[JDK]

You should take a look at this one: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?10090-Deck-Imperial-Painter/page65 ;)

btw I am currently trading Painter stuff (4 Goblin Welder, 4 Painter's Servant, 4 Grindstone), because I want to finish Canadian Threshold. :)

[GoldenCid]

Sorry for my ignorance...but isnt an additional win condition other than painter package useful?? Maybe Jace 2.0?

And what is the real advantage of Welder decks over the traditionals?

[Bignasty197]

Sorry for my ignorance...but isnt an additional win condition other than painter package useful?? Maybe Jace 2.0?

And what is the real advantage of Welder decks over the traditionals?

I run Wurmcoil Engine as a backup aggro plan with Welder and Spellskite to protect it. It isn't that hard to get online with Transmute Artifact or Grim Monolith. I haven't tried Jace yet.

[Jacemindbreak]

Are people even playing this deck now with sneak attack in the meta?

[GoldenCid]

Are people even playing this deck now with sneak attack in the meta?

I actually run Stiflenaught verison of the deck with advantage of stifle and trickbind + tormod's crypt MD and because i dont see much sneak attack here...

[JBulko]

Are people even playing this deck now with sneak attack in the meta?

I played against a Mono-Red version in the 4-1 bracket at the Las Vegas SCG this past weekend, I asked him that question after our match. He said he has maindeck Relic for that reason, but that doesnt help with multiple Emrakuls. Shrug.

[Water_Wizard]

Perusing the GP Atlanta coverage I saw a picture of painter that had gitaxian probe, manamorphose, and gamble. Im guessing this was just a somewhat joke list (not really sure what the point was) but does anyone know why you would run those together? Deck thinning?

Gamble is probably for Goblin Welder shenanigans. The rest are for deck thinning and to gather information (Probe). I didn't see the list, but with Goblin Welder, you can Gamble/Faithless Looting your key artifacts or artifact fatties into your graveyard and the get them into play cheaply, instantly, and without fear of counterspells (save Stifle).

[slave]

Laboratory Maniac?


Grindstone would kill us right in the spot.

But what if you ran a playset of Narcomoeba, a single Dread Return and a single Maniac;
Couldn't you use Dread Returns' effect instantly and interrupt the 2card trick that 'stone does, and plop Maniac onto the field?

[JDK]

But what if you ran a playset of Narcomoeba, a single Dread Return and a single Maniac;
Couldn't you use Dread Returns' effect instantly and interrupt the 2card trick that 'stone does, and plop Maniac onto the field?
First of all, you cannot cast anything during the resolution of Grindstone's ability.
Secondly, Dread Return is a Sorcery, so you can only cast/flashback it during one of your mainphases, when you have priority and the stack is empty.

[slave]

First of all, you cannot cast anything during the resolution of Grindstone's ability.
Secondly, Dread Return is a Sorcery, so you can only cast/flashback it during one of your mainphases, when you have priority and the stack is empty.

Okay, but what about running Progenitus in there?
It would stop Grindstone going wouldn't it?

[JDK]

If there is only one Progenitus left in the library, Grindstone will stop (because you need 2 cards of the same color to continue, and at some point, Progenitus would be the only card left in the library). Otherwise (e.g. 2 or more Progenitus in the library) there would be an infinite loop, which leads to a draw.

Alternatively, you could just be proactive: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=grindstone+progenitus

[Hopo]

I played against a Mono-Red version in the 4-1 bracket at the Las Vegas SCG this past weekend, I asked him that question after our match. He said he has maindeck Relic for that reason, but that doesnt help with multiple Emrakuls. Shrug.

How does Relic not help against arbitrary number of Emrakuls? You/him probably confuse this with Brainfreeze.

[Haakon]

the trigger of each emrakul goes on the stack at the same time when your opponent's library is entirely put into his graveyard, thus you can remove his graveyard with relic or tormod in response.

[Sloshthedark]

What about reading the OP/primer first?:rolleyes: those are common interactions...

[Koby]

I played the following list last weekend, finishing in 9th place on breakers at 4-2.

Lands (21):
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
4 Seat of Synod
3 Great Furnace

Creatures (10):
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Spells (29):
4 Grindstone
4 Brainstorm
3 Pyroblast
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Mox Opal
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 REB
4 Counterbalance
2 Spellskite
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Round 1 - Goblins (1-2)
Game 1 i get him early when he taps out.
Game 2 - 3 Pithing needles shut down all my cards
Game 3 - 4 Gempalm Incinerators stop my beatdown gameplan after Needles nail the Grindstone.

Round 2 - UW MiracleBlade (2-1)
Game 1 - Deck him when the coast is clear
Game 2 - Lose to a Batterskull and Angel tokens
Game 3 - get him with Tezz ultimate

Round 3 - Spanish Inquisition (2-1)
This entire match is a test to see if I have the FoW or not. I board into Spellkite to have the ability to redirect Belcher to NOT die. Counterbalance locks him out in one game.

Round 4 - Maverick (2-0)
Game 1 - Mom beatdown does not get there.
Game 2 - Ensnaring Bridge says no to combat.

Round 5 - NO Elves (1-2)
Game 1 - Lose to infinite lord beatdown before I can fire off Grindstone
Game 2 - Deck you.
Game 3 - He sees 3 KGrips and NO-Terastadon to stop my Bridge lock, and Scavenging Ooze stops Welder shenanigans. I let him take back 2 plays which ended up costing me the game. C'est la vie.

Round 6 - UW Miracles (2-1)
Game 1 - deck him early.
Game 2 - Lose to infinite Angels
Game 3 - Welder advantage ignores his Counterbalance. Pyro/REB are key here.

The decks works really well, but I'm starting to think that Spellskite should be maindecked instead of Metamorph, and it along with Ensnaring Bridge were the two most boarded in cards all day.

[Sloshthedark]

The decks works really well, but I'm starting to think that Spellskite should be maindecked instead of Metamorph, and it along with Ensnaring Bridge were the two most boarded in cards all day.

How was the FoW? I used to hate it all the time except meeting Belcher... give Lightning greaves a try

[Koby]

How was the FoW? I used to hate it all the time except meeting Belcher... give Lightning greaves a try

It was... unimpressive. It never helped me win a game I was already losing.

[Vandalize]

Nice list Koby. Loved it.

@Force of Will, this is a automatic four-of in this deck, since Painter Servant makes this card so powerful. When I play this deck, 90% of my FoW targets are removal for Painter Servant, it's a pretty good way to protect it.

This deck might be really competitive today. It's unexpected, and with Goblins, Merfolk and Maverick being a good portion of the metagame, this deck may find its way to many top8's. To counterbalance that, one of the most popular decks is a natural bad matchup for PainterStone (Show and Tell). Seems nice to try, because this deck is pretty cheap, indeed.

[door]

I've been working for a while on the painter's list with a Tezzeret splash. And since the interest is growing a little bit, I'd like to share:

3 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
3 Great Furnace
3 Seat of The Seanode
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

3 Mox opal
3 LED

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Painter's
4 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
4 Brainstorm

3 Spellskite
3 Intuition
4 REB
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Sideboard is constantly changing, but definitely includes at least:
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Pyroblast
xx pithing needle or don't play this deck if there are Pernicious deeds around.

I also love to see Jaya Ballard, Engineered Explosives and Slaughter Games in SB.

My thoughts on FoW here:
- REB/Pyroblasts are way better against opposing countermagic.
- Against decks whithout blue Spellskite protects our combopieces as well as us/tezzeret better than FoW would.
- There are not enough blue cards to support FoW if we don't control a painter.

At the moment I'm trying to cut smth, because the list is 61 cards. Also perhaps it needs 1 underground sea in place of a volcanic or great furnace.

p.s. the pure U/R list has never been as fun to play as it is now with Tezzerets. Thanks to Sloshthedark's post #292.

[Bignasty197]

I went 5-3 and got 42nd place at SCG DFW with this deck today. If anyone cares about matchup analysis or a mini report, let me know and I will write one.

[GoldenCid]

I went 5-3 and got 42nd place at SCG DFW with this deck today. If anyone cares about matchup analysis or a mini report, let me know and I will write one.
I would love to read youe experience with the deck and your decklist!

[Bignasty197]

I would love to read youe experience with the deck and your decklist!

OK. Decklist was:

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Trinket Mage
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Transmute Artifact
2 Intuition

3 Grindstone
3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Volcanic Island
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Island
1 Mountain

SB-
3 Blood Moon
3 Spellskite
3 REB
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Tormod's Crypt

Matchups were:

RD 1 vs BUG Delver 2-0
Game 1- We draw-go for the first 3 turns with him casting Brainstorms and Ponders while I stick a Welder and a Grindstone on turn 3. He Abrupt Decays my Grindstone instead of Welder and it goes downhill there for him. I land a Bridge turn 4 for which he has no answer with 2 Goyfs in play. I land a Painter turn 5 and Grind him turn 6. He had 5 lands in play. Tough luck.
Game 2- I land 2 Welders in the first 2 turns and do tricks with an Ensnaring Bridge and Wurmcoil Engine that warrants a concession.

I boarded in 3 Blood Moons and 3 Spellskites while boarding out a bunch of 1-ofs like the Crypt, LED, a Painter, a FOW, a Transmute and an Intuition. I expected stuff like Krosan Grip and Surgical Extraction to come in on his side but I never saw them.

RD 2 vs BG Loam Pox 2-1
Game 1- He Inquisitions me turn 1 taking Trinket Mage then Hymns me twice and sticks Liliana and 2 Nighthawks that kill me.
Game 2- Another turn 1 Inquisition that nabs a Blood Moon, but I draw another and lock him out with that and Ensnaring Bridge. Win on turn 6. I named black with painter to dodge Snuff Out or Doom Blade from his single swamp and multiple Mountains.
Game 3- I get Inquisitioned on turn 1 yet again, taking Blood Moon. I get Hymned turn 2 but he has no threats. I get Inquisitioned another 2 times and he sticks a Liliana. My board at this point is 2 land, Grindstone, LED. I topdeck a Brainstorm into land, Painter, Welder. I take the Land and play it. Instead of Ultimating Liliana, he chooses to move her to 7 counters for some reason with both of us handless. I rip Painter and kill him. Oh, well. I'll take it.

SB: +3 Blood Moon, +2 Needle. I cut Intuitions, 2 FOWs and a Transmute. I expected Extirpates and Deeds.

RD 3 vs BUG Delver 0-2
Side Note: This guy was a condescending dick.
Game 1- He land 2 Delvers that both flip with a Tarmogoyf and casts 2 Abrupt Decays that neuter me.
Game 2- I mull to 5 with 1 land and a Welder while he has Delver, Mongoose and Vendilion Clique.

SB: Same as RD 1

RD 4 vs Burn 1-2
Game 1- I open up with 3 Lands, Top, Mox, Grindstone, FOW. I Top and fetch 3 times but every time it was 3 lands on top. I die. FML
Game 2- It was meant to be this game. I naturally drew all 4 Painters this game without tutors. He killed the first 2 with bolts and the third with Fireblast in response to me grinding him. I topdeck #4 when he has no cards in hand and I kill him. He wasn't happy. I would be unhappy too, if I was playing burn.
Game 3- This was dumb. He PoPs me twice and Flame Rifts me twice while Spellskites look stupid sitting there. I never saw Wurmcoil all 3 games.

SB: +3 Spellskite, -1 Crypt, -1 Bridge, -1 Transmute

RD 5 vs Enchantress 0-2 He plays at my local shop and knew what I was playing.
Game 1- He opens up on Leyline of Sanctity turn 0. I go aggro backup plan that gets him to 8 before I'm locked out.
Game 2- He has everything he needs, including 2 Aura of Silence, Karmic Justice, Sterling Grove, Solitary Confinement, Needle on Grindstone. FML.

I don't remember what I sided in completely. I know it was 3 blasts but maybe something else as well. At this point, I was 2-3, super tired and kind of discouraged but I vowed to win my next 3 and get in the money.

RD 6 vs Affinity 2-0
Game 1- I win the roll and curve out perfectly into turn 1 Grindstone, turn 2 Painter, turn 3 kill with Force backup.
Game 2- He plays a Turn 1 Vault Skirge off of an Inkmoth Nexus with a Mox Opal open. I play my own Mox during my turn 1 to legend rule his. This was crucial because his only plays the rest of the game were Memnites and another Inkmoth because he had no colored mana. I intuition for 2 Ancient Grudge and a Needle at one point and he scoops to a grind a few turns later. I ended the game at 14 life with 2 poison counters. He showed me a hand of double Dispatch and Ancient Grudge. It happens.

SB: +2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Pithing Needle, -1 Crypt, -1 LED, -1 Transmute, -1 Painter.

RD 7 vs Goblins 2-0
Game 1- She opens up with Cavern, Lackey, go, but doesn't play another land the rest of the game. I don't have a blocker for the Lackey, so I get bashed down to 8 before I win on turn 5.
Game 2- Similar to game 1 with the Cavern, Lackey start. I put a Needle on Incinerator and play a Painter turn 2, which gets Pyrokinesis'd away. Lackey hits me and drops in a Siege-Gang. I stick a Welder and a Grindstone and win on turn 6. I ended the game at 7 life with the next attack being lethal.

SB: +2 Pithing Needle, +2 Spellskite, -1 Transmute, -2 FOW, -1 Crypt.

The last round decides if I get in the money, so I hope to not play against burn or RUG Delver--my worst MUs.

RD 8 vs RUG Delver 2-1
Game 1- This game is foggy in my memory but my notes say I was at 10 life before I won.
Game 2- He sticks a Delver on turn 1 that flips 2 turns later. I land a Grindstone and a Blood Moon with 2 Spellskites and draw lands for 5 turns while I die to a 3/2 flyer. Fuck Delver.
Game 3- We counter each other's things at first until he lands 2 Goyfs that beat me down to 5 before I stick a Bridge and win a turn later.

SB: Same as rounds 1 and 3, but adding in 2 REBs while cutting 2 FOWs.

This put me at 5-3, good enough for 42nd place and $50. The deck was fun to play but probably not the best choice for the meta. I played it because I have played this deck exclusively for the past 4 months and I felt good about most of its matchups. The official count of people asking about the oracle text of Transmute Artifact ended up at 6.

Cool Things-
Going 2-1 against Delver decks
The hot dog stand across the street
5 hour energy
Colin got top 8
Picking up 4 Seas and 4 Deltas

Uncool Things-
Losing to Burn
Cedric Phillips coughing on me
Not playing against Dredge or Miracles
Someone shit their pants and it was awful
Losing to Burn
Fort Worth traffic after the Cowboy game

[GoldenCid]

Well done anyway i think that painter stone is not a pretty bad option but what i really think is that we need a second win condition to painter stone. Jace could be a good one, dark tezzetet could be another or the old and good boy phyrexian dreadnought is another nice one now that we have spellskite!

[merfolkotpt]

I have been playing this deck for awhile and my current alternate win condition is Wurmcoil. I am, however, running 3 grim monolith and 3 transmute artifact to help enable that and speed up the combo.

I am considering adding in Tezzeret the Seeker to help enable broken plays. Currently, I am having a lot of trouble with Esperblade and Omni-Tell (I guess somewhat obviously). I am trying to decide on the best win condition game 2 against OmniTell whether it be just adding in the crypt effects x3-4 or actually changing around the primary win condition to a different combo, or just becoming a more grindy control deck with wurmcoils and planeswalkers or crucibles and mindslaver lock.

Anyone have thoughts on a prescribed route for that MU. I know it is going to be the worst MU overall when they are as fast as us (or faster) and their combo is makes them immune to ours.

[Kap'n Cook]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52109

[kranger]

OK. Decklist was:

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Trinket Mage
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Transmute Artifact
2 Intuition

3 Grindstone
3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Volcanic Island
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Island
1 Mountain



What is your experience with the single LED? How often did you really use it? And how often did you search it with Transmute Artifact?

Just asking since I like this version of the deck and am wondering if it makes sense to buy this single LED or not.

[Bignasty197]

What is your experience with the single LED? How often did you really use it? And how often did you search it with Transmute Artifact?

Just asking since I like this version of the deck and am wondering if it makes sense to buy this single LED or not.

The LED was really good. I was skeptical about it at first until I started playing with it and seeing what it could do. It opens you up to more turn 2-3 kills by just having it sometimes. I have turn 1'd people at my LGS before randomly-(Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Painter, Stone, LED, grind you). It is mostly just free mana when you need it and that is what this deck is hungry for. You can do so many things in conjunction with Welder also. Welder and Stone in play, crack LED dumping Painter into the yard weld out a land for Painter and kill them. I had a situation where I was playing against Affinity and he was swinging for lethal with Etched Champion/Cranial Plating while I had a Welder and LED in play with a Wurmcoil in hand. I dumped the Wurmcoil to LED and welded it in to block and ultimately seal the game. Another situation that was way less cool against Goblins, I had Ensaring Bridge in play but 4 cards in hand while looking at a lethal attack to a bunch of 1/1s and 2 Piledrivers. I couldn't play everything out in my hand but I spun top and found LED to pitch my hand and stay alive. I found the kill a few turns later. So, yeah, randomly good. As far as searching it up with TA, I only did that sometimes because I usually wanted a combo piece for the kill that turn. There were sometimes when I needed 1 mana to go off while I was holding TA and could just Transmute a land for LED and win. I usually Intuitioned or Trinket Maged for LED. I think the deck is viable without it, but if LED is available to you then it should certainly be in the 60. Sorry for the lengthy response, it is hard to explain how useful LED actually is. Final note, I don't think this deck is in the best position right now with all the Abrupt Decays running around. Spellskite helps out quite a bit, but I don't see this deck making a sizable comeback anytime soon. I will say that I am working on a Grixis list with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and Baleful Strix. When I figure it out, I'll post it.

[merfolkotpt]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52109

This was me! I wrote an article (http://manadeprived.com/if-its-broken-painters-servant-combo/) about the list, though it is mostly an introduction to people unfamiliar with painter, you guys might find it interesting.

You guys also seem to be talking about a list that is pretty similar to mine in the thread at the moment, and let me just say, I think bignasty is absolutely correct about 1x LED, especially because it makes a bunch of intuition piles insta-win as opposed to pass the turn win piles.

I would suggest with a list running 4 Transmute 3+ intuition to run 2 Wurmcoils so you can intuition and guarantee one gets to the yard, and also so that even if you draw one you can transmute into the other.

Wurmcoil was an all-star for me against all the tempo decks all day at the scg open, as they mostly don't have any ways to kill it and it single-handedly races their deck.

[Bionitech]

I live in the Los Angeles area and the meta is a bit wonky here. I'm wondering how Painter would fare in the competitive scene now that team america and jund builds are running about? I play MUD currently but plan to switch over to either painter or a more staxy version of it. It seems very consistent and I'd love to try it out if it means I can surprise people and see it do well.

[merfolkotpt]

I live in the Los Angeles area and the meta is a bit wonky here. I'm wondering how Painter would fare in the competitive scene now that team america and jund builds are running about? I play MUD currently but plan to switch over to either painter or a more staxy version of it. It seems very consistent and I'd love to try it out if it means I can surprise people and see it do well.

Jund is a joke 95% of the time against my list at least. You know how in modern Jund can't beat Wurmcoil engine, well when it comes down on turn 3 this is doubly true. When you say team america it is a little bit harder, it depends a lot on what sort of BUG build we are talking about. In my experience vs a tempo version we are at about 50 %. If our opponent is more controlling, and especially if they are running Pernicious Deed, that % get's much worse.

[SirTylerGalt]

This was me! I wrote an article (http://manadeprived.com/if-its-broken-painters-servant-combo/) about the list, though it is mostly an introduction to people unfamiliar with painter, you guys might find it interesting.

You guys also seem to be talking about a list that is pretty similar to mine in the thread at the moment, and let me just say, I think bignasty is absolutely correct about 1x LED, especially because it makes a bunch of intuition piles insta-win as opposed to pass the turn win piles.

I would suggest with a list running 4 Transmute 3+ intuition to run 2 Wurmcoils so you can intuition and guarantee one gets to the yard, and also so that even if you draw one you can transmute into the other.

Wurmcoil was an all-star for me against all the tempo decks all day at the scg open, as they mostly don't have any ways to kill it and it single-handedly races their deck.

I really liked the article!

Have you considered playing Sensei's Divining Top? It helps you find the combo parts, protects your threats from discard (floating them on top of your library), enables metalcraft for Mox Opal, and comboes with Goblin Welder as a draw engine (tap top, then sac it to welder in response).

[merfolkotpt]

I really liked the article!

Have you considered playing Sensei's Divining Top? It helps you find the combo parts, protects your threats from discard (floating them on top of your library), enables metalcraft for Mox Opal, and comboes with Goblin Welder as a draw engine (tap top, then sac it to welder in response).


I have tested as many as 3 Tops, but the issue really comes down to what to cut. If you are cutting tutors, it seems bad because top is pretty slow (for a 1 mana spell) at doing what you want, which is finding a piece quickly. If you cut combo pieces, welders, or Wurmcoils it doesn't seem like you are gaining enough. You could cut brainstorm but the blue count is pretty low for Force when you don;t have a painter on blue in play.

I like top in a grindier build with planeswalkers, trinket mage, maybe Tfk and more counters, however, that build has a very different approach than transmute. It might be right for some metas, and can be fun, but in my experience you get eaten alive by tempo decks with a build like that, YMMV.

I can post a list that splashed black for bob in addition to running Baleful strix and spellskite in the 75 that had pretty much all the neat tricks in it, but it just didn't feel as powerful to me as the version from the article.

Grindy List (iffy mana):
4 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Confidant
4 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

3 Mox Opal
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta

SB: 4 Baleful Strix
SB: 3 Spellskite
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge

[Koby]

I cant agree with not running Top and Welder in the same deck. The filtering it provides is so much more important than Transmute Artifact. I would run 4 Tops before considering to run the first TA.

[movingtonewao]

TA is a tutor while top is a filterer. They serve different purposes. I'm not really in a position to make the comparison but maybe Jacob can say something about it.

Also, are there any advantages of running this build over imperial painter? Budget concerns aside.

[Vandalize]

TA is a tutor while top is a filterer. They serve different purposes. I'm not really in a position to make the comparison but maybe Jacob can say something about it.

Also, are there any advantages of running this build over imperial painter? Budget concerns aside.

This deck protects and assembles the combo better. Imperial Painter much like Dragon Stompy is whatever your opening 7 has to offer. If they can counter your Blood Moon effect, or fetch basics, you'll have a hard time against removal.

Still, I think Imperial Painter is better suited against the new BGx metagame (due to unstable three color manabases, of course).

[Koby]

Played in a Legacy Daily Event tonite with my old take on Painter. The SB was a little wonky because I refuse to drop 8 tix on Spellskites. Anyways, take from it what you will:

http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/363811902

Went 2-2
Round 1 - Merfolk (2-1)
Round 2 - Death & Taxes (2-1)
Round 3 - Junk (0-2)
Round 4 - Zoo (1-2)

In the Junk matchup (Abrupt Decay) I was losing to Leyline of Sanctity, rather than Abrupt Decay.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Played in a Legacy Daily Event tonite with my old take on Painter. The SB was a little wonky because I refuse to drop 8 tix on Spellskites. Anyways, take from it what you will:

http://www.twitch.tv/jkory/b/363811902

Went 2-2
Round 1 - Merfolk (2-1)
Round 2 - Death & Taxes (2-1)
Round 3 - Junk (0-2)
Round 4 - Zoo (1-2)

In the Junk matchup (Abrupt Decay) I was losing to Leyline of Sanctity, rather than Abrupt Decay.

Spellskite > Zoo.

[TkDodo]

This was me! I wrote an article (http://manadeprived.com/if-its-broken-painters-servant-combo/) about the list, though it is mostly an introduction to people unfamiliar with painter, you guys might find it interesting.

You guys also seem to be talking about a list that is pretty similar to mine in the thread at the moment, and let me just say, I think bignasty is absolutely correct about 1x LED, especially because it makes a bunch of intuition piles insta-win as opposed to pass the turn win piles.

I would suggest with a list running 4 Transmute 3+ intuition to run 2 Wurmcoils so you can intuition and guarantee one gets to the yard, and also so that even if you draw one you can transmute into the other.

Wurmcoil was an all-star for me against all the tempo decks all day at the scg open, as they mostly don't have any ways to kill it and it single-handedly races their deck.

Just wanted to say I played around with your list a little bit and it's really awesome. I haven't lost a match to any BUG list, RUG Tempo or Stoneblade. I did however go -1 Wurmcoil, -1 REB, -1 Intuition, +3 Top. I think it is too good to not be included. Also, I can't really agree on the two Wurmcoils mainboard (I did put a second one in the side though). If you have one in your hand, but want to Transmute for one, you can just as easily hardcast it, assuming that you would Transmute with Grim Monolith. The only situation would really be with an active Welder out and Intuion, in which case you can normally just combo kill them.

Just wanted to ask:

.) How much do you value the maindeck Tormod's Crypt? I think I might accept the fact that this deck looses to SnT preboard and rather have the extra slot for something else.
.) What decks do you board in Ensnaring Bridge against? Apart from the obvious SnT, I haven't used it so far.
.) In general, what do you usually board out? I am relatively new to combo, so I struggle with what to to take out usually. I think I mostly boarded out the one off LED, because I thought the speed is not that neccessary G2, don't know if that's correct. I never took out any tutors, sometimes the 4th combo pieces (especially if I brought the 2nd Wurmcoil), and mostly some amount of FoW (If i bring in some other form of protection, like Spellskite).
.) Lastly, a rules question regarding Transmute Artifact: Am I correct assuming that I have to float mana from Grim Monolith when casting Transmute Artifact (before it resolves) if my intention is to sac it, meaning that if it gets countered, I 'loose' the 3 Monolith mana (unless I can use it otherwise)?

[merfolkotpt]

Man, -1 wurmcoil does not seem great to me, i was looking for room to go up to 3 in the main. Card is so good against all flavors of Bug and Rug. They just can't answer it, where as with active welder and intuition if i go for the combo, i am just walking into so many cards. Personal preference matters though.




1.) How much do you value the maindeck Tormod's Crypt? I think I might accept the fact that this deck looses to SnT preboard and rather have the extra slot for something else.
I think that while you don't have a great chance game 1 against SnT, it is better than no chance at all, and tormod's crypt has been surprisingly good for me. It is a fine card against Delver decks with Nimble mongoose, it does some work against snapcasters, and honestly it turns on Mox Opal a fair amount of the time. That being said I have considered cutting it a couple times so I can't blame you for considering, the opportunity cost just seems relatively good to me, as we have a bunch of ways to find it if need be.



2.) What decks do you board in Ensnaring Bridge against? Apart from the obvious SnT, I haven't used it so far.
There are several MUs where I have sided it in, but it depends a lot on MUs and what not. Generally, merfolk literally cannot beat the card, which is fine, though we should probably beat them anyway. Additionally, I think it can be ok against various delver decks, though usually other sideboard cards take priority. Finally, I side in alot of cards against SnT since g1 is so bad and I think being able to consistently win game 2 and 3 is really important.


3.) In general, what do you usually board out? I am relatively new to combo, so I struggle with what to to take out usually. I think I mostly boarded out the one off LED, because I thought the speed is not that neccessary G2, don't know if that's correct. I never took out any tutors, sometimes the 4th combo pieces (especially if I brought the 2nd Wurmcoil), and mostly some amount of FoW (If i bring in some other form of protection, like Spellskite).
I board out different things depending on the specifics of game 1, but I board out Force of will alot, especially against the more controlling decks or any of the "fair" decks. Against other blue decks I think flusterstorm and spellskite do more work than force of will does. Additionally, I board out LED against blue decks a fair amount of the time. I sometimes board out 1 grindstone especially if they have no way to interact with my non-creature artifacts. Depending on the MU (i am thinking SnT here) I board out all the wurmcoils and some of the transmutes/monoliths. Wurmcoil isn't very good in the MU and we are definitely the control in that one so we can afford to trade some of our two for tutors against ourselves for other cards.



4.) Lastly, a rules question regarding Transmute Artifact: Am I correct assuming that I have to float mana from Grim Monolith when casting Transmute Artifact (before it resolves) if my intention is to sac it, meaning that if it gets countered, I 'loose' the 3 Monolith mana (unless I can use it otherwise)?
You are correct, although it is important to note that 3 mana is only one less than it takes to untap a grim monolith, and you only have to sacrifice if transmute resolves, so generally if TA gets countered i just untap. This is also super relevant with LED, as it means you can't use LED mana to pay the rest of a cost with TA unless you break it in response to casting TA. Grim mana can pay for TA if another artifact is sacrificed, but LED can not.


I cant agree with not running Top and Welder in the same deck. The filtering it provides is so much more important than Transmute Artifact. I would run 4 Tops before considering to run the first TA.

This seemed weird to me too, but testing has made me go the other way, it just makes you too slow. While it has advantages against slower controlling blue decks, anything in the tempo zone beats us when we are using our mana for this instead of tutoring to win the game. Welder plus top is good, welder plus transmute is insane.


Also, are there any advantages of running this build over imperial painter?
Imperial painter is a very different style and one i did not like. Blue is the big advantage, we are playing in a format with a lot of banned tutors and we get to play (up to) 8 really strong ones. Slower less versatile ones, to me, just are not as good. That being said I think imperial painter is a real strong deck, with a very different more controlling approach, so it depends on your meta a lot. In a wide open meta, i always opt for more combo over more control.

[TkDodo]

Uh, I somehow missed that you answered my questions ...

I agree with almost everything you say, except maybe the second Wurmcoil. If they can't beat one, what do you need a second one for? With an active Welder, you can also go Painter, Stone, Wurmcoil. They will give you Wurmcoil, but now they have to deal with a hardcast Wurmcoil and the combo in at most two turns.
On another note, I've been thinking about a different target than Wurmcoil. Has anyone thought about Batterskull? The good thing is: It costs you no extra mana if you transmute away a Grim Monolith. The bad news: The token dies to Decay, making it difficult to win a life total race if you are already behind. Also, it does not do such great things with Welder :/
I was mainly looking for an artifact wincon that costs 5, because its much easier to transmute. Batterskull is the best I could come up with.

For reference, here is the list I'm currently testing. I've had great results in testing so far (albeit on Cockatrice only), and I strongly consider taking it to GP Strassbourg. If SnT weren't such a miserable MU ...


3 Grim Monolith
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamon
2 Mox Opal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Transmute Artifact
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
2 Volcanic Island

SB:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Blood Moon
3 Counterbalance
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

[4n1m4]

Hello everyone,

this is my first reply on The Source although I'm an old follower of the Painter's thread. I started considering the deck as a solid option for the next BoM and I want to look at your opinions in order to reach an almost perfect list :tongue: Actually, I think Jacob's 75 were a really nice starting point. After some heavy testing and minor changes, these are my 76! (lol):

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
3 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Opal
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spellskite
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Wurmcoil Engine


SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 3 Divert
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Flusterstorm

Deck-building decissions worth to highlight:

1- Intuition:the card is great, but with all these deathrite shaman walking around I feel like a heavily dependant graveyard deck should not be the best option. Since 4x Welder are a must in the deck, I think 2 Intuition is just fair enough.

2- LED yes / LED no discussions: Tested with and without LED and this is my conclusion: the singleton is no worth it. 95% of times when you go Intuition for LED/Painter/Stone pile before welding you can go for LED/Painter/Monolith. Perhaps you can go to the second one even more times because of the Monolith don't need to be sacrified. Slots in the deck are really precious :-) and I found that LED just speeds up some MU like combo or super aggro and was just a tool to enable the all-in mode that normally it is not needed.

3 - Protection: 4 Force + 3 Pyro do not seem enough for me. Spellskite was just the MVP of the deck on the testing post sideboard. It's an artifact (so it can be transmuted if needed), protects from decay, block little monsters as Moongoose, Lackey, Thalia, etc... Deserves maindeck slots.

4 - Win Con: 100% agreed with running the 2xWurmcoils. I don't know if it's just me, but I draw one very often. (Same thing happens in Vintage with colossus, lol). They are not that hard to cast using Monoliths, and the card is just nuts against every "fair deck" not running Swords to Plowshares. Sometimes we are forced to win beatdown mode (facing needle, Emrakul, active qasalis, etc) and not beeing able to go Intuition for two Wurmcoils or Transmute Monolith into one just because the card is in our hand I think it is just not affordable.

Tezzeret: Sometimes it's broken, sometimes is just really hard to cast. These are the Intuitions slots and I think it is a really decent tutor and win con all together. It's usually a 2 turns clock against every combo deck playing Emrakul wich are the worst pairings of the deck. In my opinion and including Tezz gives you a lot more ways to win instead of the mill effect. The card also works amazing in the late game MU vs control decks such UW or BUG control decks.

Sideboard:

Did anyone tested Glen-Elendra Archmage? I don' t feel like Llawan must be anymore on the sideboard, I barely side them in. Glen-Elendra is great against any combo deck, and others with lots of spot removal.
To be honest I still haven't found a sideboard I feel confident with but I' m sure about one thing. 3xDivert are here to stay. Hymns are everywhere! :-(

[TkDodo]

Hi 4n1m4,

Welcome to the source and thanks for your thoughts.

First off, I’m a true believer in 60 card decks, especially when it comes to combo. We want to draw our combo pieces naturally as often as possible, and having that 61st card will reduce our chances to do so.



1- Intuition:the card is great, but with all these deathrite shaman walking around I feel like a heavily dependant graveyard deck should not be the best option. Since 4x Welder are a must in the deck, I think 2 Intuition is just fair enough.


I don’t think we are heavily GY dependent just because of Intuition. If there is a card in our deck that makes us depend on the GY, it’s Welder. More often than not, I see Intuition as a 3 mana instant speed Demonic Tutor going for one specific card. I think you mostly only go for piles with different cards if you have an active Welder out, so most of the time, it will be 3x [insert missing card here]. 2x Intuition is the minimum I would do as well. I have 3 and sometimes board one out, with the reason being 1) Surgical Extraction and 2) 3 mana being a lot sometimes.



2- LED yes / LED no discussions: Tested with and without LED and this is my conclusion: the singleton is no worth it. 95% of times when you go Intuition for LED/Painter/Stone pile before welding you can go for LED/Painter/Monolith. Perhaps you can go to the second one even more times because of the Monolith don't need to be sacrified. Slots in the deck are really precious :-) and I found that LED just speeds up some MU like combo or super aggro and was just a tool to enable the all-in mode that normally it is not needed.


I agree on the LED issue. In my testing of 50+ matches, LED has been useful like 2 or 3 times. Mostly, I was mana screwed and just went all-in with LED because I had no other choice and it happened to work. Space is tight and these fringe cases should not be a reason to play a specific card. I also boarded it out 95% of the time, because postboard games tend to be much slower anyway.



3 - Protection: 4 Force + 3 Pyro do not seem enough for me. Spellskite was just the MVP of the deck on the testing post sideboard. It's an artifact (so it can be transmuted if needed), protects from decay, block little monsters as Moongoose, Lackey, Thalia, etc... Deserves maindeck slots.


Don’t forget our “main” piece of protection: Goblin Welder. He protects us from discard, counterspells and removal that’s not Swords to Plowshares. Spellskite is great in certain matchups (read: decks relying on Lightning Bolt), but a tad slow for the maindeck. I think I want to try Misdirection in the main deck first, since its for free and great against Decay and Hymn. Imo the main deck is all about speed. We can go for more protection post board.



4 - Win Con: 100% agreed with running the 2xWurmcoils. I don't know if it's just me, but I draw one very often. (Same thing happens in Vintage with colossus, lol). They are not that hard to cast using Monoliths, and the card is just nuts against every "fair deck" not running Swords to Plowshares. Sometimes we are forced to win beatdown mode (facing needle, Emrakul, active qasalis, etc) and not beeing able to go Intuition for two Wurmcoils or Transmute Monolith into one just because the card is in our hand I think it is just not affordable.


I honestly don’t get it. If you want to Transmute Grim Monolith away for a Wurmcoil but can’t because your 1-of is in your hand, just hardcast it !? It will cost you 6 mana no matter what (UU for Transmute, and 4 to pay the difference).
The Intuition story sounds true in theory, but it never came up for me in practice. You do need an active Welder, which is unlikely against Jund or BUG or RUG in the first place, because any decent Player will kill Welder on sight. I did go for Painter/Stone/Wurmcoil once against RUG, he gave me Wurmcoil, I hardcast it to stabilize and combo a couple turns later.
Long story short: Before playing 3 Transmute, 2 Wurmcoil, I would do 4 Transmute, 1 Wurmcoil every day. The spots where you draw a Wurmcoil wishing it was a Tutor for the combo will out weight the fringe spots where you need a second Wurmcoil.



Tezzeret: Sometimes it's broken, sometimes is just really hard to cast. These are the Intuitions slots and I think it is a really decent tutor and win con all together. It's usually a 2 turns clock against every combo deck playing Emrakul wich are the worst pairings of the deck. In my opinion and including Tezz gives you a lot more ways to win instead of the mill effect. The card also works amazing in the late game MU vs control decks such UW or BUG control decks.


Tezzert sounds interesting, and his ultimate is definitely another nice angle of attack. It would be interesting to know how hard he really is to cast. I found out that sometimes a timely Wasteland from our opponent or dazing a Grim Monolith or something along those lines can really screw us up. On the other hand, how about Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas? Black mana would be an issue, but he only costs 4 and his abilities look decent overall.

Finally, I think Nihil Spellbomb is just really greedy in your list. You can only produce black with Mox Opal, so you won’t cantrip reliably. Crypt seems way better – one mana will make the difference very often.

I would also love to find room for a one off Academy Ruins as the 5th Goblin Welder. People tend to Wasteland our Sol Lands anyway, so it might have a higher chance to survive. It should be great against decks without Wasteland and it makes Intuition an even more attractive option. It’s just that I love the mana base the way it is and can’t convince myself to change anything.



Sideboard:
Did anyone tested Glen-Elendra Archmage? I don' t feel like Llawan must be anymore on the sideboard, I barely side them in. Glen-Elendra is great against any combo deck, and others with lots of spot removal.
To be honest I still haven't found a sideboard I feel confident with but I' m sure about one thing. 3xDivert are here to stay. Hymns are everywhere! :-(

Glen-Elendra does not look like it’s what this deck needs. It will cost you 3UU to cast her and being able to counter something this turn, so I think it’s way too slow against combo. I would also up your GY hate count and your Blood Moon count to 3, since it’s the magic number for Intuition. Against Dredge for instance, I went Crypt-Crypt-Crypt on Turn 2 a ton to slow them down.

[4n1m4]

First off, I’m a true believer in 60 card decks, especially when it comes to combo. We want to draw our combo pieces naturally as often as possible, and having that 61st card will reduce our chances to do so.



The thing here is 20 land/60 cards or 21 land/61 cards. My mulligan percentage was always higher with the first option. I just feel more safe playing 21 lands :-) I'm thinking about decreasing Mox Opal count to one, but I am not still that uncomfortable playing 61.




I don’t think we are heavily GY dependent just because of Intuition. If there is a card in our deck that makes us depend on the GY, it’s Welder. More often than not, I see Intuition as a 3 mana instant speed Demonic Tutor going for one specific card. I think you mostly only go for piles with different cards if you have an active Welder out, so most of the time, it will be 3x [insert missing card here]. 2x Intuition is the minimum I would do as well. I have 3 and sometimes board one out, with the reason being 1) Surgical Extraction and 2) 3 mana being a lot sometimes.



Seems a decent reasoning to me :-) Maybe I shall test -1 Tezz, + 1 Intuition.





Don’t forget our “main” piece of protection: Goblin Welder. He protects us from discard, counterspells and removal that’s not Swords to Plowshares. Spellskite is great in certain matchups (read: decks relying on Lightning Bolt), but a tad slow for the maindeck. I think I want to try Misdirection in the main deck first, since its for free and great against Decay and Hymn. Imo the main deck is all about speed. We can go for more protection post board.



Can't agree with that. Just because how great goblin welder is, I think is really important to protect him. Welder + Spellskite protect your combo pieces from everything, including swords to plowshares. I think I haven't lost a game yet with those two guys on board.




I honestly don’t get it. If you want to Transmute Grim Monolith away for a Wurmcoil but can’t because your 1-of is in your hand, just hardcast it !? It will cost you 6 mana no matter what (UU for Transmute, and 4 to pay the difference).
The Intuition story sounds true in theory, but it never came up for me in practice. You do need an active Welder, which is unlikely against Jund or BUG or RUG in the first place, because any decent Player will kill Welder on sight. I did go for Painter/Stone/Wurmcoil once against RUG, he gave me Wurmcoil, I hardcast it to stabilize and combo a couple turns later.
Long story short: Before playing 3 Transmute, 2 Wurmcoil, I would do 4 Transmute, 1 Wurmcoil every day. The spots where you draw a Wurmcoil wishing it was a Tutor for the combo will out weight the fringe spots where you need a second Wurmcoil.



Lol, Monolith is not the only artifact to Transmute! :-) I was meaning a board when not having any single piece of the combo but a Goblin Welder you need to Transmute something to Entomb the Wurmcoil and weld it. It sucks if it is in our hand, and as I said it happens to me quite often. :-/





Tezzert sounds interesting, and his ultimate is definitely another nice angle of attack. It would be interesting to know how hard he really is to cast. I found out that sometimes a timely Wasteland from our opponent or dazing a Grim Monolith or something along those lines can really screw us up. On the other hand, how about Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas? Black mana would be an issue, but he only costs 4 and his abilities look decent overall.

Finally, I think Nihil Spellbomb is just really greedy in your list. You can only produce black with Mox Opal, so you won’t cantrip reliably. Crypt seems way better – one mana will make the difference very often.

I would also love to find room for a one off Academy Ruins as the 5th Goblin Welder. People tend to Wasteland our Sol Lands anyway, so it might have a higher chance to survive. It should be great against decks without Wasteland and it makes Intuition an even more attractive option. It’s just that I love the mana base the way it is and can’t convince myself to change anything.



Tezz as you said is another nice angle of attack, but maybe 1 should be enough. Agent of Bolas's back requirement is a big issue for me and it does not find your combo pieces instantly without casting them.

Maybe just a little bit greedy :P. I really think the "remote" possibility of cantrip for the spellbomb is worth it, and in fact I dont think one mana will make the difference that often assuming you will not have black for the cantrip. I have never had that problem so far. It also offers the chance to Transmute to Painter/spellskite for just 1UU.




Glen-Elendra does not look like it’s what this deck needs. It will cost you 3UU to cast her and being able to counter something this turn, so I think it’s way too slow against combo. I would also up your GY hate count and your Blood Moon count to 3, since it’s the magic number for Intuition. Against Dredge for instance, I went Crypt-Crypt-Crypt on Turn 2 a ton to slow them down.



Yep, maybe with the 3rd Intuition I should go back to the the magic number! ;-)

Thanks for your comments!

[TkDodo]

The thing here is 20 land/60 cards or 21 land/61 cards. My mulligan percentage was always higher with the first option. I just feel more safe playing 21 lands :-) I'm thinking about decreasing Mox Opal count to one, but I am not still that uncomfortable playing 61.


I also added the 21st land in place of the LED. It is Academy Ruins. I love it.




Can't agree with that. Just because how great goblin welder is, I think is really important to protect him. Welder + Spellskite protect your combo pieces from everything, including swords to plowshares. I think I haven't lost a game yet with those two guys on board.

It is true, Spellskite + Welder is very good. They will need two removals for them and then need another one for the Painter. I also love this combination – postboard. When people bring in Disenchants and Grudges and more spot removal and such, Spellskite is great. Most decks have, what, 4-6 Painter killing removal spells in the main (Bolt, Decay, Swords, maybe Snapcaster). Of course, there is still counters and discard, which Welder is also great against, but I think your configuration lacks a good amount of speed pre-board. If you have Welder + Spellskite, the rest of your hand better be gas. I have lost some games with those two out because I couldn’t find the combo fast enough (dying to Delver for instance).



Lol, Monolith is not the only artifact to Transmute! :-) I was meaning a board when not having any single piece of the combo but a Goblin Welder you need to Transmute something to Entomb the Wurmcoil and weld it. It sucks if it is in our hand, and as I said it happens to me quite often. :-/

That is true, don’t know how I could forget that, especially because I did it once or twice ;) It’s still fringe though, you need 1) Welder out and active, 2) Wurmcoil in hand and no Brainstorm to put it back 3) TA in hand, 4) not enough mana to cast Wurmcoil but UU available and 5) Wurmcoil must be a desirable play in your current game. Don’t know why people worry so much about that scenario. Maybe it happens more often to you because you have two mainboard *g* ?
But maybe it is a better configuration if you have Welder + Spellskite mainboard, because then your Welder will probably live longer.

How is Kira for you in the board? Is it better than Spellskite? And what are your plans against storm combo? They are at least a turn faster than we are, and a chant effect would shut off all your post-board answers ...

[4n1m4]

That is true, don’t know how I could forget that, especially because I did it once or twice ;) It’s still fringe though, you need 1) Welder out and active, 2) Wurmcoil in hand and no Brainstorm to put it back 3) TA in hand, 4) not enough mana to cast Wurmcoil but UU available and 5) Wurmcoil must be a desirable play in your current game. Don’t know why people worry so much about that scenario. Maybe it happens more often to you because you have two mainboard *g* ?
But maybe it is a better configuration if you have Welder + Spellskite mainboard, because then your Welder will probably live longer.



Exactly. I normally never cast Welder without protection, except when I have Intuition or Painter/Stone next turn. It is the key card of the deck because of the way it interacts with our tutors. I am not very worried with the speed of the deck though. If you find the combo fast is Ok, but that depends on your first seven cards. I mean, I will not mull if I can go 3rd turn kill when I don't know vs what I am playing but normally I feel safe with hands with Protection like Welder + Spellskite. I normally assume I am playing against a "fair" deck. Maybe the "Wurmcoil thing" happens because I run 2 MD :-P, but it's not like you have always Brainstorm in hand and I am not running SDT to avoid the unlucky draw...




How is Kira for you in the board? Is it better than Spellskite? And what are your plans against storm combo? They are at least a turn faster than we are, and a chant effect would shut off all your post-board answers ...



I usually prefer Spellskite over Kira except when I find myself fighting against STP + Snapcaster. In that scenario I think Kira is better. That's why I run 2 spells kite / 1 Kira, but I don't think it makes a big difference.
I haven't tested against storm combo (ANT or DD) very much actually. I used to play 3 flusterstorm SB and never seemed enough to me. That's why I was suggesting Glen-Elendras. Storm decks can't defeat one in play and with Monolith and Sol lands the Faerie enters the battlefield really fast. It is also another Win Condition vs S&T. I think the best way to fight S&T is to forget milling anyone. Just tested for an hour with my bro and it is almost impossible to win pre and post board. :-(

[deadlock]

Hello everyone,

this is my first reply on The Source although I'm an old follower of the Painter's thread. I started considering the deck as a solid option for the next BoM and I want to look at your opinions in order to reach an almost perfect list :tongue: Actually, I think Jacob's 75 were a really nice starting point. After some heavy testing and minor changes, these are my 76! (lol):

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
3 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Opal
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spellskite
3 Transmute Artifact
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Wurmcoil Engine


SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 3 Divert
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Flusterstorm

Deck-building decissions worth to highlight:

1- Intuition:the card is great, but with all these deathrite shaman walking around I feel like a heavily dependant graveyard deck should not be the best option. Since 4x Welder are a must in the deck, I think 2 Intuition is just fair enough.

2- LED yes / LED no discussions: Tested with and without LED and this is my conclusion: the singleton is no worth it. 95% of times when you go Intuition for LED/Painter/Stone pile before welding you can go for LED/Painter/Monolith. Perhaps you can go to the second one even more times because of the Monolith don't need to be sacrified. Slots in the deck are really precious :-) and I found that LED just speeds up some MU like combo or super aggro and was just a tool to enable the all-in mode that normally it is not needed.

3 - Protection: 4 Force + 3 Pyro do not seem enough for me. Spellskite was just the MVP of the deck on the testing post sideboard. It's an artifact (so it can be transmuted if needed), protects from decay, block little monsters as Moongoose, Lackey, Thalia, etc... Deserves maindeck slots.

4 - Win Con: 100% agreed with running the 2xWurmcoils. I don't know if it's just me, but I draw one very often. (Same thing happens in Vintage with colossus, lol). They are not that hard to cast using Monoliths, and the card is just nuts against every "fair deck" not running Swords to Plowshares. Sometimes we are forced to win beatdown mode (facing needle, Emrakul, active qasalis, etc) and not beeing able to go Intuition for two Wurmcoils or Transmute Monolith into one just because the card is in our hand I think it is just not affordable.

Tezzeret: Sometimes it's broken, sometimes is just really hard to cast. These are the Intuitions slots and I think it is a really decent tutor and win con all together. It's usually a 2 turns clock against every combo deck playing Emrakul wich are the worst pairings of the deck. In my opinion and including Tezz gives you a lot more ways to win instead of the mill effect. The card also works amazing in the late game MU vs control decks such UW or BUG control decks.

Sideboard:

Did anyone tested Glen-Elendra Archmage? I don' t feel like Llawan must be anymore on the sideboard, I barely side them in. Glen-Elendra is great against any combo deck, and others with lots of spot removal.
To be honest I still haven't found a sideboard I feel confident with but I' m sure about one thing. 3xDivert are here to stay. Hymns are everywhere! :-(

I havent been keeping up with the current mana, but I have played Painter quite a bit in the MM era.

Concerning your list, as others said, you lack the speed necessary for a combo deck like this with so many SB cards in the maindeck. G1 the plan should always be to go for Painterstone, which gets hard with your list with so many conditional cards. In my list I also run Wurmcoil, but it is a conditional SB card for a couple of matchups.
However the biggest issue I have with your list, is that you have cut SDT! Its absolutly insane in this deck and should never be cut. Other powerful cards you are lacking is the full set of Intutions and the third Mox Opal. Mox is busted in this deck, but it requires the SDT's.
I agree with no LED with the TA / Grim package in the picture. Basically I removed 2 City of Traitor and the single LED from the MM reference list and added the three Grims.
Tezz was discussed a long time ago, but it is simply to expensive AND too random. Wurmcoil can always be tutored for in numerous ways, where Tezz has to be drawn.
The protection suite is indeed a little bit insufficient. Spellskite cannot be count towards it, as it is conditional and slow ( I still love it as a board card though!). Currently I run the 4 Fow, 2 Blast and 2 metagame cards, which are either Spell Pierce, Misdirection, Flusterstorm or the new 2 mana utility card I dont know the name off. There other possibilties too, but as I said, I am not that familiar with the current meta.

Note that TA allows us to go for an silverbullet sideboard.

[TkDodo]

I havent been keeping up with the current mana, but I have played Painter quite a bit in the MM era.

Concerning your list, as others said, you lack the speed necessary for a combo deck like this with so many SB cards in the maindeck. G1 the plan should always be to go for Painterstone, which gets hard with your list with so many conditional cards. In my list I also run Wurmcoil, but it is a conditional SB card for a couple of matchups.
However the biggest issue I have with your list, is that you have cut SDT! Its absolutly insane in this deck and should never be cut. Other powerful cards you are lacking is the full set of Intutions and the third Mox Opal. Mox is busted in this deck, but it requires the SDT's.
I agree with no LED with the TA / Grim package in the picture. Basically I removed 2 City of Traitor and the single LED from the MM reference list and added the three Grims.
Tezz was discussed a long time ago, but it is simply to expensive AND too random. Wurmcoil can always be tutored for in numerous ways, where Tezz has to be drawn.
The protection suite is indeed a little bit insufficient. Spellskite cannot be count towards it, as it is conditional and slow ( I still love it as a board card though!). Currently I run the 4 Fow, 2 Blast and 2 metagame cards, which are either Spell Pierce, Misdirection, Flusterstorm or the new 2 mana utility card I dont know the name off. There other possibilties too, but as I said, I am not that familiar with the current meta.

Note that TA allows us to go for an silverbullet sideboard.

Sounds like your list is pretty similar to mine. What do you have in mind as a silver bullet sideboard? I currently "only" run 1 Ensnaring Bridge and 1 Pithing Needle in the board, mostly for Sneak & Show decks. I would love to get some more ideas for useful, tutorable targets for problematic matchups.

[deadlock]

Sounds like your list is pretty similar to mine. What do you have in mind as a silver bullet sideboard? I currently "only" run 1 Ensnaring Bridge and 1 Pithing Needle in the board, mostly for Sneak & Show decks. I would love to get some more ideas for useful, tutorable targets for problematic matchups.

My current board:
1 Needle
1 Bridge
1 Wurmcoil
3 GY hate (artifacts)
3 Spellskite
3 Blood Moon
3 Red Blast

As I said this may be a little bit outdated, but I still think that it is a very powerful and versatile board. It is important to not go overboard with the silverbullets. Also dont go too overboard with the alt-win cons, if painterstone win is so bad in your meta dont play this deck in the first place.

Do you guys agree that Misdirection is the next most powerful protection spell as a x2 in the maindeck after 4 FoW and 2 Blast? I did run Spell Pierce, but with Abrupt Decay in the picture, Misdirection looks superior.

[TkDodo]

My current board:
1 Needle
1 Bridge
1 Wurmcoil
3 GY hate (artifacts)
3 Spellskite
3 Blood Moon
3 Red Blast


lol my board is - 1 Wurmcoil (since I have 1 in the main), -1 Crypt (since I have 1 in the main) and -1 RedBlast for +3 Counterbalance, but else its exactly the same.



Do you guys agree that Misdirection is the next most powerful protection spell as a x2 in the maindeck after 4 FoW and 2 Blast? I did run Spell Pierce, but with Abrupt Decay in the picture, Misdirection looks superior.

Yes, I absolutely agree. I can't find the space for more protection at the moment, since I don't want to move the Crypt and the Wurmcoil to the board, but I could see myself going -1 FoW, + 1 Misdirection, especially if the meta is very BUG and Jund heavy.

[TkDodo]

So I decided to take this deck to GP Strasbourg after loosing in the first round of two trials on Friday with Esper. Also, I went to extra turns both times and I didn’t want to play 10 hours + without any breaks. After all, I didn’t see too much Show and Tell that day.

Here’s the list:

4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Transmute Artifact
3 Intuition
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Opal
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Mountain
2 Island
1 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Spellskite
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst

I switched the 3 Counterbalance with 3 Flusterstorm some time ago and never looked back. The Thorn of Amethyst was a last minute SB idea to have some more outs against Storm combo, which I expected a lot (rightfully so). The rest is pretty much as I had tested it the last couple of months.

In short, the deck was AMAZING. In a big tournament, the surprise factor was very important. People kept bad hands (not knowing what I was playing), chose wrong cards with discard (Brainstorm instead of Transmute Artifact against Storm G2 because he didn’t know I can get Thorn), made wrong plays (Playing Goyf T2 instead of something useful after I opened with Island -> Top, or going off unprotected T2 after I open with Great Furnace [I did have FoW]) and so on…

Of course I got super lucky, avoiding Show and Tell the whole day. So here is how I went:

R1: 2-1 against Armageddon Stax (Wurmcoil anyone?)
R2: 2-0 against Reanimator (5 virtual maindeck crypts)
R3: 0-2 against Esper (Jitte wins games)
R4: 2-0 against UWR Delver
R5: 2-1 against Dredge (Crypts + Welder)
R6: 2-1 against Jund (easy matchup)
R7: 2-0 against Jund
R8: 2-1 against Shardless BUG (very close match)
R9: 2-0 against Aluren (in 15 minutes, T3 kill both games)

Yep, that’s 8-1. Without byes.

R10: 0-2 against Maverick (with Revoker main)
R11: 0-2 against Punishing Maverick
R12: 2-0 against Junk
R13: 2-0 against Storm
R14: 0-2 against Shardless BUG
R15: 2-0 against TES
R16: 0-2 against UW Counterbalance with Helm of Awakening/SD.Top/Grapeshot combo

For a total of 11-5, putting me in 82nd place. I hate myself for not knowing that I could’ve drawn the last round into top 64. I really need to learn how that works :/

Apart from that I am super happy with my deck choice. I wasn’t prepared for Maverick though, so I was cold against Mother + Revoker, and both lists also had Leyline and Stony Silence in the board. The only thing I could think of is putting some Pyroclasms in the board, but maybe these are just corner cases.

I can provide more details if there is interest.

[The Omen]

I'm in the process of building this deck. My only question is does a main board answer to Death Rite Shaman need to be put in? and if so Needle? Revoker? what would my options be if I was playing in a DRS heavy meta

[Bignasty197]

I'm in the process of building this deck. My only question is does a main board answer to Death Rite Shaman need to be put in? and if so Needle? Revoker? what would my options be if I was playing in a DRS heavy meta

I ran 2 Trinket Mages alongside 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Tormod's Crypt and 1 LED as the bullet targets. I absolutely love the Needle main because it can answer any problematic permanents G1. In my opinion, DRS isn't that much of a threat because it can't remove artifacts aside from Painter or Wurmcoil. If they don't play DRS, it still hits Jace, Wasteland(!), Pridemage, etc. If they want to Abrupt Decay it, that's completely fine. It is probably safe to run another in the side.

[TkDodo]

I ran 2 Trinket Mages alongside 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Tormod's Crypt and 1 LED as the bullet targets. I absolutely love the Needle main because it can answer any problematic permanents G1. In my opinion, DRS isn't that much of a threat because it can't remove artifacts aside from Painter or Wurmcoil. If they don't play DRS, it still hits Jace, Wasteland(!), Pridemage, etc. If they want to Abrupt Decay it, that's completely fine. It is probably safe to run another in the side.

I agree with Bignasty - don't know why we would care about DRS. He stops Welder to some extent, but that doesn't stop our combo. In general, decks running DRS are not our worst matchup anyway. In the GP, Round 12 against Junk I played through a DRS and a Pridemage with Welder and Painter in play by going end of turn Intuition for Painter, Painter, Stone. He was dead on the spot, independent of what he chose.
Also, at least in the early game, they need DRS to produce mana. If they leave him and one green open to stop Welder, they cannot deploy their board as much.

Needle is a good SB option, targeting everyting you said plus e.g. Sneak Attack. I don't agree with it being worth a mainboard slot though - sure, it's never dead, but I think the mainboard is all about speed and consistency of the combo. If you need "outs" to some random permanents they might have, just play more RedBlast effects, as they double as protection.
Loosing two matches to Revoker and other hatebears makes me wanna try out something like Pyrite Spellbomb - tutorable, colorless removal (Mother or Runes), recurrable with Welder that also cantrips if necessary sounds nice.

Regarding Trinket Mage: Do you play it over Transmute Artifact? If so, I don't think it's a good idea. Transmute has been the best card for me the whole weekend, getting stuff directly into play (or in the yard with Welder out to cheat on mana). To me, the Mage is rather expensive, can only get half of our combo and doesn't impact the game immediately. Technically, it is card advantage while TA is card disadvantage, however the ability to fetch what you need, independent of casting cost (allowing you to play a tutor SB with thing like Ensnaring Bridge) clearly outweights that. T2 TA into Crypt also happened quite some amount against GY decks, while T3 would have been too slow. The Grim Monolith -> Wurmcoil shenanigan is just icing on the cake. I would max out on TA before considering Trinket Mage.

[Bignasty197]

@TKDodo- I play 4 Transmute Artifact already alongside 2 Intuition and 2 Trinket Mage. I never have consistency issues outside of the random mana screw. I understand that we are all about speed game 1, but I would rather have a main deck Needle instead of the 4th Grindstone. It may be personal preference, but I absolutely love Needle main. Name Pridemage and sit under a Bridge until you hit the combo, name Gempalm Incinerator vs Goblins so they can't pop Painter in response to a Grind, name Jace or Top vs those derpy Miracle decks and screw them over, naming Wasteland in almost any MU is amazing by itself. My point is that it isn't hard to find the 1-of and it can be game-breaking. I would rather have it and not need it than not have it and need it.

[joylusa]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on this thread and i have not read all the post so im not sure if someone has talk about playing on side some whipflare before. Our painters still alive and we can kill deathrite and is good against fast decks like elves. This weekend im gonna play 2 tournaments and im looking for the best list to play and do a report afterwars.
So im open to your suggestions XD:wink::wink:

[merfolkotpt]

So I decided to take this deck to GP Strasbourg after loosing in the first round of two trials on Friday with Esper. Also, I went to extra turns both times and I didn’t want to play 10 hours + without any breaks. After all, I didn’t see too much Show and Tell that day.

Here’s the list:

4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Transmute Artifact
3 Intuition
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Opal
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Mountain
2 Island
1 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Spellskite
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst

I switched the 3 Counterbalance with 3 Flusterstorm some time ago and never looked back. The Thorn of Amethyst was a last minute SB idea to have some more outs against Storm combo, which I expected a lot (rightfully so). The rest is pretty much as I had tested it the last couple of months.

In short, the deck was AMAZING. In a big tournament, the surprise factor was very important. People kept bad hands (not knowing what I was playing), chose wrong cards with discard (Brainstorm instead of Transmute Artifact against Storm G2 because he didn’t know I can get Thorn), made wrong plays (Playing Goyf T2 instead of something useful after I opened with Island -> Top, or going off unprotected T2 after I open with Great Furnace [I did have FoW]) and so on…

Of course I got super lucky, avoiding Show and Tell the whole day. So here is how I went:

R1: 2-1 against Armageddon Stax (Wurmcoil anyone?)
R2: 2-0 against Reanimator (5 virtual maindeck crypts)
R3: 0-2 against Esper (Jitte wins games)
R4: 2-0 against UWR Delver
R5: 2-1 against Dredge (Crypts + Welder)
R6: 2-1 against Jund (easy matchup)
R7: 2-0 against Jund
R8: 2-1 against Shardless BUG (very close match)
R9: 2-0 against Aluren (in 15 minutes, T3 kill both games)

Yep, that’s 8-1. Without byes.

R10: 0-2 against Maverick (with Revoker main)
R11: 0-2 against Punishing Maverick
R12: 2-0 against Junk
R13: 2-0 against Storm
R14: 0-2 against Shardless BUG
R15: 2-0 against TES
R16: 0-2 against UW Counterbalance with Helm of Awakening/SD.Top/Grapeshot combo

For a total of 11-5, putting me in 82nd place. I hate myself for not knowing that I could’ve drawn the last round into top 64. I really need to learn how that works :/

Apart from that I am super happy with my deck choice. I wasn’t prepared for Maverick though, so I was cold against Mother + Revoker, and both lists also had Leyline and Stony Silence in the board. The only thing I could think of is putting some Pyroclasms in the board, but maybe these are just corner cases.

I can provide more details if there is interest.

This list has some spiciness in it. It looks pretty similar to my current list though I am not running Top at all nor am I running Academy Ruins. Looking at your list i think i want to cut 1 intuition and 1 of my 3 Wurmcoil (I would never go below 2, intuitioning and guarantee-ing that one goes to the yard has been relevant too many times) and add in 2 Tops, it has been awhile since I played them and with all the Hymns running around my meta, being able to have an extra card in my hand that can't be discarded seems good.

How good have you found academy ruins to be? I have sideboarded it in the past, but having a 5 colorless land has been rough for me in the past, especially with 4 transmute. Thoughts?

Now onto the sideboard. How do you like Blood Moon/when do you bring them in? Also is thorn better than trinisphere as our "tinker target" against storm?

I appreciate how much people still work on this deck, I really think this is one of the best decks, when people are unprepared. Sadly, if it gets a lot more popular, it will get harder to play since a lot of the power comes from opponents play mistakes.

[TkDodo]

This list has some spiciness in it. It looks pretty similar to my current list though I am not running Top at all nor am I running Academy Ruins. Looking at your list i think i want to cut 1 intuition and 1 of my 3 Wurmcoil (I would never go below 2, intuitioning and guarantee-ing that one goes to the yard has been relevant too many times) and add in 2 Tops, it has been awhile since I played them and with all the Hymns running around my meta, being able to have an extra card in my hand that can't be discarded seems good.

How good have you found academy ruins to be? I have sideboarded it in the past, but having a 5 colorless land has been rough for me in the past, especially with 4 transmute. Thoughts?

Now onto the sideboard. How do you like Blood Moon/when do you bring them in? Also is thorn better than trinisphere as our "tinker target" against storm?

I appreciate how much people still work on this deck, I really think this is one of the best decks, when people are unprepared. Sadly, if it gets a lot more popular, it will get harder to play since a lot of the power comes from opponents play mistakes.

Top is awesome in many ways. Against TES, I floated a Flusterstorm on top and countered his Tutor. You can use it as a drawing engine with Welder (which I did a lot). You can open with Island->Top and have people play horrible. You can avoid drawing top in your next drawstep if you stack the activisions correctly, effectively drawing you two cards. Sol Land into Top plus activision is very strong. I also transmuted it away some times, which is nice because it has CMC one and get you a Grindstone for free and a Painter for just 1 more.

Academy Ruins is great in theory, but I don't ever remember it being relevant. People also waste it a lot ;) Now here's the thing: I used to play 20 lands, 2 Moxes and 3 Monolith's for quite some time, which is sufficient mana in general. However, I wanted to have an additinonal 21st land in the maindeck, mainly because of RUG. Of course, it's another non-basic, but we die to Wasteland anyway, because we will have an artifact or sol land in play most of the time. The extra land just gave me some security to find a mana source reliably when brainstorming or toping. It also being a utility land (Welder no5) is also great. Now with the 21 land configuration I almost always borded out the basic mountain against non-wasteland decks (Esper, Miracles, Combo etc). It is the worst land in the deck, but necessary to cast Welder and REBs against RUG reliably. So if you are going to play 21 lands, the extra land does not need to be color producing.
Regarding TA: Getting to UU by T2 is not needed most of the time, since you won't have anything to transmute away. If you want to play a Grim Monolith first, you will need until T3 or T4 anyway to cast TA. By then, UU should not be a problem. I did however move from 3 Seat of the Synod, 2 Great Furnace to a 4-1 configuration almost exclusively because of TA.

Blood Moon: THE best SB card for me of the tournament. The reason why Jund is an "easy" matchup. I won at least 3 post board matches due to Blood Moon. In one of them, I even had my Painters extracted. It didn't matter, my opponent wasn't casting anything else ever again. Decks like Jund or BUG need to get things on the board to pressure us with a clock, so they are not afraid to tap out in the early turns. A well timed blood moon instantly closes the game against them, because we normally don't give them enough time to find their 1-of basic land or their Deathrite etc.

Against Storm, of course Trinisphere would be ideal. However, the 1 mana makes a big difference when transmuting it, since the plan is getting it on turn 3. If you transmute an artifact land, you can do it turn 3 with a Sol land or a mox. If you transmute a top, you can do it turn 3 with any 3 lands. The problem is not being dead until then and deploying your own combo. If I'm not dead by turn 4, chances are that I disrupted my opponent enough so that I can now transmute for the win rather than 3Sphere.

[merfolkotpt]

Top is awesome in many ways. Against TES, I floated a Flusterstorm on top and countered his Tutor. You can use it as a drawing engine with Welder (which I did a lot). You can open with Island->Top and have people play horrible. You can avoid drawing top in your next drawstep if you stack the activisions correctly, effectively drawing you two cards. Sol Land into Top plus activision is very strong. I also transmuted it away some times, which is nice because it has CMC one and get you a Grindstone for free and a Painter for just 1 more.

Academy Ruins is great in theory, but I don't ever remember it being relevant. People also waste it a lot ;) Now here's the thing: I used to play 20 lands, 2 Moxes and 3 Monolith's for quite some time, which is sufficient mana in general. However, I wanted to have an additinonal 21st land in the maindeck, mainly because of RUG. Of course, it's another non-basic, but we die to Wasteland anyway, because we will have an artifact or sol land in play most of the time. The extra land just gave me some security to find a mana source reliably when brainstorming or toping. It also being a utility land (Welder no5) is also great. Now with the 21 land configuration I almost always borded out the basic mountain against non-wasteland decks (Esper, Miracles, Combo etc). It is the worst land in the deck, but necessary to cast Welder and REBs against RUG reliably. So if you are going to play 21 lands, the extra land does not need to be color producing.
Regarding TA: Getting to UU by T2 is not needed most of the time, since you won't have anything to transmute away. If you want to play a Grim Monolith first, you will need until T3 or T4 anyway to cast TA. By then, UU should not be a problem. I did however move from 3 Seat of the Synod, 2 Great Furnace to a 4-1 configuration almost exclusively because of TA.

Blood Moon: THE best SB card for me of the tournament. The reason why Jund is an "easy" matchup. I won at least 3 post board matches due to Blood Moon. In one of them, I even had my Painters extracted. It didn't matter, my opponent wasn't casting anything else ever again. Decks like Jund or BUG need to get things on the board to pressure us with a clock, so they are not afraid to tap out in the early turns. A well timed blood moon instantly closes the game against them, because we normally don't give them enough time to find their 1-of basic land or their Deathrite etc.

Against Storm, of course Trinisphere would be ideal. However, the 1 mana makes a big difference when transmuting it, since the plan is getting it on turn 3. If you transmute an artifact land, you can do it turn 3 with a Sol land or a mox. If you transmute a top, you can do it turn 3 with any 3 lands. The problem is not being dead until then and deploying your own combo. If I'm not dead by turn 4, chances are that I disrupted my opponent enough so that I can now transmute for the win rather than 3Sphere.

So I noticed a couple things, first, it appears that your Academy ruins slot is my LED slot, which I wouldn't cut. So I think for now that means no academy ruins in my deck. Also I think i am running more basics and fewer artifact lands (maybe -1 +1) which has been pretty relevant in terms of beating wastelands. All the other suggestions seem spot on though.

[Jungian Thing]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...y/feature/248f

Mox Opal just got a bit better...

T1 Great Furnace, Mox Opal, Grindstone. - Float Mox Opal Mana, cast second Mox Opal, Cast Painter's Servant. Drop LED. Crack it. Activate Grindstone. GG!!!

I think I will need to buy all the world stocks of Mox Opal!!!!!

[Koby]

OK, I'm back to working on this deck again. Nothing related at all to the legend rule, but it's a nice bonus come mid-July. Part of the reason why I think this deck is good to pick up right now for the SCG metagame and come mid-July is due to the maindeck REB. Aside from that, it's still a good deck against mid-rangey 3c decks that try to out grind each other out.

Key cards that will be of importance (and mostly SB however):
Spellskite
Ensnaring Bridge
Goblin Welder
Wurmcoil Engine

[TkDodo]

So I noticed a couple things, first, it appears that your Academy ruins slot is my LED slot, which I wouldn't cut. So I think for now that means no academy ruins in my deck. Also I think i am running more basics and fewer artifact lands (maybe -1 +1) which has been pretty relevant in terms of beating wastelands. All the other suggestions seem spot on though.

Yes, I remember running LED in that slot as well. As a 1-of it seemed like a rather wasted slot to me, because you will rarely have it when you really need the 3 mana boost. It is nice to go Intuition -> Painter/Stone/LED with active Welder out, but in that spot you are not likely to loose anyway. With the new legend rule, I'd rather play another Mox Opal. We have no problems reaching Metalcraft, so it's a really solid acceleration which turns into a Lotus Petal if you have multiples.


OK, I'm back to working on this deck again. Nothing related at all to the legend rule, but it's a nice bonus come mid-July. Part of the reason why I think this deck is good to pick up right now for the SCG metagame and come mid-July is due to the maindeck REB. Aside from that, it's still a good deck against mid-rangey 3c decks that try to out grind each other out.

Key cards that will be of importance (and mostly SB however):
Spellskite
Ensnaring Bridge
Goblin Welder
Wurmcoil Engine

Looking forward to your testing results. REBs MD are very good, unfortunately I haven't found the slots to play more than two. Also, with the possibility of Emrakul decks decreasing because of the new legend rule (maybe, idk. At least they can't play Karakas anymore) this deck could be a really powerful meta choice.

[SirTylerGalt]

I remember Caleb's article about U/R Painter:

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-painting-the-world-blue/

In it, he explained why Mox Opal is awesome in this deck:



[...] the deck has Mox Opal [...]. In Legacy, spinning a Sensei's Divining Top on turn one is one of the more broken plays possible, and Painter can make that play between one in five games on the play and one in four on the draw. In tournament play, it’s more slanted toward one in four, as the deck can expect to be on the draw for game two.

The Moxen also increase the chance of going turn one Goblin Welder, turn two Intuition. This leads to fetching a pile of Grindstone, Painter’s Servant, and Lion’s Eye Diamond and welding one into play, then untapping and welding another into play and casting the missing piece from hand for the kill.


With the new rule, Mox Opal could be a 4-of, which would give the deck more acceleration, and even more broken T1 Sensei's Diving Top.

[merfolkotpt]

I might up the opal count to 3 come the rule change, but in general, I think I am never unhappy with drawing LED, it just threatens so much on its own. Plus sometimes "discard your hand" is the nuts. As for auto four of on opal, I would ask, what are you cutting for the extra copies. The original problem where you sometimes don't have metalcraft and opal is mostly dead still exists and isn't helped at all by the legend rule change. If you have a suggestion for a 4 opal list I am happy to discuss it, but i don't think off the rip it is just better.

BTW, I won a little 8-man tournament this weekend with my (very close to Tk's) version of this deck. If everyone playing show and tell could just switch over to the "better" version with cunning wish and omniscience life would be so much better. Show and Tell actually becomes an easy MU when there is no Emrakul involved, and it sounds like the new legend rule (as well as the BoM results) might push people in this direction. This might end up being the most relevant post legend-rules change effect for us.

Earlier people were discussing running some number of MisD main, and I think the big thing to remember (assuming you are cutting FoW) is that in an established meta this might be the right call, but legacy just doesn't usually work that way. If the top 8 decks at scg opens were the only decks you saw at tournaments then sure it could be correct, but there is so much randomness in the format that is at least semi-viable it is hard to cut the oh sh*t button that is force of will.

I say this as someone who just picked up my 3rd jap misdirection and is continuously frustrated about force of will having no asian language printing in my otherwise all Japanese painter list. (Transmute and the dual lands are also exceptions to the all japanese all the time deck).

[Dice_Box]

I am kicking this in the ass, not because I have anything to add, but because more and more people are posting stuff that should be in this thread outside it and it needs a little love.

[Holden1669]

I am kicking this in the ass, not because I have anything to add, but because more and more people are posting stuff that should be in this thread outside it and it needs a little love.

One of those people is me. I've been experimenting with a mostly mono-blue version built around Transmute Artifact and Grand Architect that splashes black for Baleful Strix.


4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Grindstone
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Baleful Strix
3 Painter's Servant
3 Counterbalance
4 Transmute Artifact
4 Grand Architect
4 Force of Will
4 Spire Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan

7 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins

sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
3 Back to Basics
2 Devastation Tide
1 Counterbalance
1 Platinum Angel
1 Contagion Engine
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge


So far I like the Architect and Spire Golem more than I thought I would. I'm thinking I should probably just up the Painter's Servant and Grindstone counts but I do really like the Wurmcoil and Sundering Titan alternate plans.

[Slag]

One of those people is me.
I'm the other.


So far I like the Architect and Spire Golem more than I thought I would. I'm thinking I should probably just up the Painter's Servant and Grindstone counts but I do really like the Wurmcoil and Sundering Titan alternate plans.

I am a big fan of having a back-up beatdown plan. It gives you more avenues to win, especially against decks with Emrakul, and allows you to focus on developing your control pieces against faster combo decks. I run Trinket Mage and Cloud of Faeries in my build, and have gotten a couple of wins through combat damage. Now, I actually run one piece of grave-hate in the main deck (that I can grab with mage, Fabricate, or Tolaria West), so I can theoretically respond to Emrakul triggers by removing the opponent's graveyard. Do you see enough show and tell to run some maindeck gravehate as a tutor target? I also see a lot of dredge in my meta, so I am rarely sad to have it.

[Holden1669]

I am a big fan of having a back-up beatdown plan. It gives you more avenues to win, especially against decks with Emrakul, and allows you to focus on developing your control pieces against faster combo decks. I run Trinket Mage and Cloud of Faeries in my build, and have gotten a couple of wins through combat damage. Now, I actually run one piece of grave-hate in the main deck (that I can grab with mage, Fabricate, or Tolaria West), so I can theoretically respond to Emrakul triggers by removing the opponent's graveyard. Do you see enough show and tell to run some maindeck gravehate as a tutor target? I also see a lot of dredge in my meta, so I am rarely sad to have it.

Good point. I could move the Nihil Spellbomb to the maindeck and cycle it or Transmute it away (for value!) at the very least. I'll try that replacing an Island and see how that goes.

So far I've only played this online and have faced Emrakul decks pretty regularly, which has been frustrating. Spellbomb maindeck definitely seems good.

How do you like Fabricate, Trinket Mage, Tezzeret, and Muddle the Mixture for tutoring?

[Slag]

How do you like Fabricate, Trinket Mage, Tezzeret, and Muddle the Mixture for tutoring?
I like them, except for Muddle, which was really just a placeholder for another Tezzeret. Collectively, they give a fair amount of redundancy, so I can play combo pieces into removal and still have a good chance of drawing more pieces. I will say that what kept them from being too slow was the fact that I ran ancient tomb and chrome mox. Transmute is probably the better card over fabricate, but for the fact that I'm running fewer artifacts that I want to sacrifice.

[merfolkotpt]

So I might be at odds with the mods here, in which case I will respectfully retract my opinion, however, the last couple of lists in here feel very different from traditional painter stone to me and could be in a separate thread (I know they were in one originally and were directed here).

I could critique the lists that are here, but I feel like I would be doing it from the frame of my style of list, and these are different enough that it might not make sense to do that.

That being said, if they are here, I am going to talk about them with respect to my own list. I want to know why a list with baleful strix and spire golem, are better than current technology. I think there are some interesting grind-ier lists out there (though Spire golem hasn't seen a lot of my testing) but my experience was that switching to those lists usually just made me a bad version of Miracles with RIP in it. I would much rather be focused very heavily on combo-ing quickly, with some resiliency and I think Transmute Artifact as an additional set of tutors lends itself to this. If you want to play a list that is focused on control with TA I guess it just seems like you would be better suited to play one of the various UB Tezz control lists floating around. Those lists might even want a blocker in the form of Spire Golem in them.

Maybe I am missing something fundamental but to me, we are playing a combo deck with force of wills (and in my case Welder) in it to win the game faster than our opponent, and shrug off their disruption, not to disrupt them, and then try to win incidentally.

[Holden1669]

So I might be at odds with the mods here, in which case I will respectfully retract my opinion, however, the last couple of lists in here feel very different from traditional painter stone to me and could be in a separate thread (I know they were in one originally and were directed here).

I could critique the lists that are here, but I feel like I would be doing it from the frame of my style of list, and these are different enough that it might not make sense to do that.

That being said, if they are here, I am going to talk about them with respect to my own list. I want to know why a list with baleful strix and spire golem, are better than current technology. I think there are some interesting grind-ier lists out there (though Spire golem hasn't seen a lot of my testing) but my experience was that switching to those lists usually just made me a bad version of Miracles with RIP in it. I would much rather be focused very heavily on combo-ing quickly, with some resiliency and I think Transmute Artifact as an additional set of tutors lends itself to this. If you want to play a list that is focused on control with TA I guess it just seems like you would be better suited to play one of the various UB Tezz control lists floating around. Those lists might even want a blocker in the form of Spire Golem in them.

Maybe I am missing something fundamental but to me, we are playing a combo deck with force of wills (and in my case Welder) in it to win the game faster than our opponent, and shrug off their disruption, not to disrupt them, and then try to win incidentally.

Yeah. Honestly I agree with you that this list isn't better than current technology. When I started brewing I was trying to see what I could do with Transmute Artifact. This naturally brought me to the Painter Grindstone combo but I didn't want to ignore the other possibilities for Transmute Artifact (namely tutoring for expensive artifacts ahead of "schedule" if you get an artifact with high cmc in play in some way- i.e. Spire Golem or Myr Enforcer in Affinity or as a terrible Entomb). The "issue" is that Painter Grindstone is just better in most situations. Why not tutor for something cheap and just win rather than get a Wurmcoil or Sundering Titan and not win?

And, incidentally, this is most of the reason why I didn't post here in the first place. It's more than likely that none of Baleful Strix, Grand Architect, or Spire Golem is good enough to make a list with Painter's Servant, Grindstone and Transmute Artifact. But their presence in the deck implies a different, more controlly approach that uses similar cards. I wouldn't expect my first attempt at this to compare favorably to an established (if fringe) deck like Painter Stone.

[merfolkotpt]

This is why i would point you in the direction of some of the UB tezz lists like this one: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_ub_tezzeret_with_chr.html

It has a more controlling feel and is pointed more in the direction that your list seems to be. The real cool side is you can still get value out of a 2/4 flyer in a list like that as a (worse) baleful strix.

[SirTylerGalt]

While I love the "full-combo" version of U/R Painter (with Welder, Intuition, Transmute Artifact, and the alternative Wurmcoil win-con...), there is still a part of me that wants to build a grixis version that is less "full-combo" and more "combo-control".

The list would include 4 Baleful Strix, 2-3 Thirst for Knowledge, and 2-3 Tezzeret AoB. I just love the idea of using Goblin Welder on Strix and Top for value... Such a list wouldn't focus on the combo. It would play maybe 1-2 Painter and 1-2 Stone, and get the combo with Intuition / Transmute Artifact after establishing control of the board. It could also include the Thopter/Sword combo. I love the idea of using different win-cons depending on the opponent's deck and the situation.

The problem is, there is no good sweeper in the grixis colors :(

[kingtk3]

Not so sure about that: red offers pyroclasm, one of the best sweeper right now, and black has massacre, virtue's ruin, perish and damnation.

Moreover they are full of point removal, artifact and planeswalker destruction: they only lack enchantment removal.

I think that a mix of those can cover your necessities.

And btw, I like the idea of combo control too! But in another deck... ;-)

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Forum Runner

[Koby]

I was thinking that the lists running Transmute Artifact and Painter/Stone were attempting to maximize the use of that combo and adding other complimentary "Plan B"s. When I look at such lists, that's my only conclusion anyway; hence why I directed the two new threads over to here.

Using Transmute Artifact for value rather than combo is a different take, and like merfolkofpt has alluded, fits better in the UB Tezz deck as a psuedo-Tinker/tutor.

[emt37]

Random question: why are people playing the Imperial Recruiter version instead of the U/R one?

The U/R version seems to me so much solid.

[Koby]

Random question: why are people playing the Imperial Recruiter version instead of the U/R one?

The U/R version seems to me so much solid.

Novelty factor?
Budget (as much as that makes sense... $600 playset is still cheaper than FOW + Volcs + Fetches)

[Kap'n Cook]

Random question: why are people playing the Imperial Recruiter version instead of the U/R one?

The U/R version seems to me so much solid.

Each has strengths and weaknesses it depends on your style. I would argue the opposite but to each his own. Painter is just awesome in general

[emt37]

Each has strengths and weaknesses it depends on your style. I would argue the opposite but to each his own. Painter is just awesome in general

How can the U/R version be less solid than the Painter version?

Sure, you do not have Blood Moon, but you still have way more tutors, counters and brainstorm (you could even use thirst for knowldege).

Also Blood Moon is situational as hell (and the Imperial Painter auto-loses against show and tell decks while with the U/R version you can easily tutor a Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb).

[Kap'n Cook]

How can the U/R version be less solid than the Painter version?

Sure, you do not have Blood Moon, but you still have way more tutors, counters and brainstorm (you could even use thirst for knowldege).

Also Blood Moon is situational as hell (and the Imperial Painter auto-loses against show and tell decks while with the U/R version you can easily tutor a Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb).

They are both solid decks, I'm not knocking either. UR is a better pure combo deck. Red is the better disruption deck.

Show and Tell really isn't an auto loss at all. Mono blue Omni is hard, yes. But a ton of blasts help there. Sneak and Show is favorable due to ensnaring bridges, blasts, and revokers on sneak attack. Beat down with critters happens a lot. But again, this is just general knowledge.

UR has a better combo matchup and is faster. If that is your style, then this deck is better for you.

[kingtk3]

The strenght of the recruiter build is that its plan B (lock and beat down) comes easier than ours because they play many cards which fulfil different roles. For example, magus is both disruption and a beater, simian is an acceleration but still is a beater if you reach 3 lands, recruiter is a combo fetcher but a beater too, ecc...

Even if they face an emrakul deck they can still lock and aggro them because of their 7 moons and rebs (well, that's not true for a particular emmy deck, right Koby :wink: ).

However I still prefer the feel I get from the UR version because it is a real combo deck, while the recruiter version is more of a stompy with a combo in it.

[Koby]

Jacob Hilty's newest list:

Maindeck:
4 Painter's Servant
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder

3 Grim Monolith
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Mox Opal
4 Transmute Artifact

Lands
2 Great Furnace
2 Seat of the Synod
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Blood Moon
3 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast

Can't knock the performance of Nam Tran in T8 and Hilty himself in 19th. Still wondering if Grim Monolith is needed as a 3 of with an LED already included; or vise versa.

[TkDodo]

Jacob Hilty's newest list:

Maindeck:
4 Painter's Servant
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder

3 Grim Monolith
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Mox Opal
4 Transmute Artifact

Lands
2 Great Furnace
2 Seat of the Synod
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Blood Moon
3 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast

Can't knock the performance of Nam Tran in T8 and Hilty himself in 19th. Still wondering if Grim Monolith is needed as a 3 of with an LED already included; or vise versa.

Great to see the deck putting up results! This build is almost identical to what I took to GP Strassbourg ealier this year where I barely missed top 64 (not surprising since I started with Hilty's list).
Regarding your question: I think that 3 GM is neccessary, because its your primary Transmute sacrifice target. You can get either combo piece for free and float the 3 mana you need for the activision. I for myself cut the LED though and addded an Academy Ruins instead. The 21st land helps against tempo decks, especially if it also recurs our whole deck. In testing, the 3 mana speed bump for an all-in activision wasn't neccessary that often, especially if you have a FoW or a blast in hand, where you just don't want to discard your hand. It's great with Intuition though, it just doesn't come up that often when you only play a singleton, and most of the time, I just wished it was another land.

[merfolkotpt]

Hey guys,
I have a little mini report forthcoming, and my friend Nam will hopefully send me some information as well, but until then, just wanted to say that I really liked the list. Nam shot me an email late last week looking for a legacy list and I shot him painter and then started talking to him about some of the subtleties playing this list. Hilariously, Cedric Philips covered him in the last round and after he intuitioned for 3 Blood Moon, said something like, "this is the reason it is clear he has been playing the list for a really long time." Which I thought was pretty funny.

Anyhow, grats to Nam, he played great all day, and put up with me remembering random advice and trying to cram it in his head all day, and converted under the lights.


Edit: ....and here's the report!
Hello Everybody!

So UR painter had a good weekend with Nam top 8ing with the same 75 that i played to a top 32 finish. I still think this deck is basically the nut, and people should really consider playing it more, that being said, keep an eye out for cheap Transmutes because apparently they are up from ~$10 last year to about $60 on site at SCG Opens.

Anyhow, we elected to have breakfast all together at George's and then take the rapid again at my (apparently misinformed) assumption that the Marathon going on downtown would close down any reasonable parking for us. There were 9 cleveland (ish) folks who attended including: Caffrey on Storm, Snoop-Troog with a mono black concoction, Randall with mono red sneak attack, Jerry on Belcher, G on Twaun's BG pox list, Charles on Reanimator, Brad Wayne on shardless bug, and of course Nam and myself playing UR painter.

We met up with a couple other friends on site and some vintage was played on the side while we were waiting for the tournament to start.

After a semi-late start we started to get down and play some magic.

RD1 vs unknown person (merfolk) Win 2-0
I lost my notes on this round (I presume they washed away in the storm that exploded after the tournament) but I think this was the same guy that G scooped into a chance at top 64 in the penultimate round. In any event, all i remember about this MU is that game 1 I tried to block a merfolk when I had an island in play, and that I drew the grindstone on my last turn to kill him. Game 2 I sided +1 REB +1 ensnaring bridge -1 tormod's crypt and -1 ? and preceded to force his turn 2 aether vial off his second non-island land, and then play out the combo in short order to his board of exactly those 2 lands.
Record after this round 1-0-0

RD2 vs Tony with "JunkBlade" Win 2-0
Game 1 was a turn 4 kill with protection. Game 2 was slightly more interesting since he knew what my cards did, I had the potential for a turn 2 kill, but it would have involved losing to abrupt decay or swords. I ended up playing out grim monolith turn 2, spellskite turn 3, i forced a swords on his turn 4 on my spell skite, and then played out the combo turn 4 with spellskite redirecting an abrupt decay. This might be a hard MU but spellskite was really good, and without brainstorms, his removal spells absolutely have to do work.
Record after this round 2-0-0

RD3 vs Andrew with "Mono Red" Loss 0-2
Game 1 I kept a slower hand with a force of will and welder intuition thinking this was a pretty good hand, and then my opponent caused me to draw a free card, which was sad. His turn 1 goblin guide did not bode well for the good guys. I tried to keep up with him but his burn was just faster than my ability to assemble the combo, especially having to waste force on burn spells. He played pretty aggressively basically playing out his hand and giving no respect to the combo, but it worked for him. Game 2 He made a couple mistakes, flame rift using his only 2 lands than passing with a goblin guide in play (I would probably not block at 14 life there if he leaves mana up until after attacks, since i need spell skite to protect my combo guys. However, I assembled a pretty sweet board of spell skite in yard 3 blue mana up and another skite in the yard with welder in play and him with no cards in hand. He of course top deck'd the lava spike for the win, i actually had the win next turn i think, but sadly didn't get the chance to get there. I can't be too salty though with flame rift, lava spike and price as all possible ways to kill me that can't be retargetted to spell skite i wasn't expecting to win, just hoping. Anyhow, this seems like a bad MU but one i wouldn't ever spend sideboard slots on, but note that I played against it at table 1, so that is a deck that apparently can still hang with legacy.
Record after this round 2-1-0

Rd 4 vs Ryan with Belcher Win 2-0
This guy was a lot of fun but flashed me his deck a couple times while shuffling so I knew he was on belcher, but we joked around the whole time we were playing. We had a couple fun arguments about the sideboard of belcher with me claiming that 15 islands was the only way to do it, and him responding (and proving me wrong) by flashing me the Naked Singularity in his sideboard (yeah you should look that one up). In any event, my opener had a turn 3 combo and a force of will, he probed me turn one got a sad face and I ended up countering his Seething song for the win. In game 2 i mulled to 5 to find a force of will or a flusterstorm (i sided in 3 of these and three skites and sided out a substantial portion of the transmute artifact/wurmcoil/grim monolith plan) and my 5 had Force of Will but no blue card. In any event he probed me but had to pass the turn on t1. And i drew my card (a basic land) gave him the look that I hoped conveyed, "oh yeah i totally drew a blue card", but was probably read as "I am slightly constipated" and played a land + grindstone. He passes again on turn 2 (!) and I draw flusterstorm and play a land + welder. He attempts to get me to waste my brainstorm on his burning wish with no mana floating and three cards in hand, but i am not fooled. He says something like "you were supposed to counter that" and gets an empty the warrens and passes. I play a land and a painters servant and pass with 3 lands on the table (2 tapped) plus the combo and a fluster storm and force of will in my hand. He does not pull this one out. He is from sort of near by and I encourage him to check out a TSO with his friends (he seems like our kind of people), and mention the infinite proxy option, he seems pumped.
Record after this round 3-1-0

Rd 5 vs Brian with Sneak + Show Win 2-1
This guy seems like a very serious player. Nice enough, but all business and not at all excited about bantering, I continue to be my normal manic self in tournament settings. I knew that my opponent was on Sneak and show almost immediately, but my hand is basically crap and i don't find a tormod's crypt to go with my combo pieces before my show and tells a griselbrand into play. I put in a wurmcoil and get pumped because my opponent seems eager to trade and starts talking about going up to 27 (which means he wouldn't have activated his griselbrand in time!) but he quickly realizes that he needs to activate first and draws 14 cards, and proceeds to destroy me. For game 2 i brought in 3 Fluster storms the 3rd Reb the ensnaring bridge and the 3x Tormod's Crypt and side out most 2 wurmcoil 2Grims 1 LED and 1 grindstone 1 transmute artifact and 1 other cards. In this game i cast an ensnaring bridge early and protect it with a force of will and my opponent looks pretty upset. I then proceed to attack with 1 painter, then 2 painters, then a welder (which he ends up having to kill with REB) and taking the game with a combination of attacks and my opponent attacking himself pretty aggressively with his own ancient tombs. At one point he hard casts a brainstorm off 2 island and 2 Ancient tombs putting himself to 8 with me havinf 3 power of guys in play, my comment "best psionic blast ever!". I kill him this game with dudes. In game three i just have a ton of counterspells and do almost the same exact thing, just attacking for the win with 1 power guys, Vintage achievement unlocked. The only diffference is that ensnaring bridge never came to the party. (Apparently attacking for 1 is how to beat show and tell?)
Record after this round 4-1-0

Rd 6 vs Ed with Goblins Win 2-0
Ed was once again a real nice guy. He was on goblins (which was one of the reasons I decided not to play a grindier version--no pun intended--of painter after the last Legacy GP I attended) which is a MU surprisingly enough, i have tested a fair amount. My main concern was that he was going to get a fast kill, but i managed to get welder and painter to stymie some attacks and things, and finally get a Wurmcoil into play that he just couldn't deal with. One neat thing that happened was attacking with wurmcoil with a painter in play and a welder. Then we cracked back REBing my own Wurmcoil and welding it back in for 3 blockers and 9 more life for me. For game 2 i sided in the extra wurmcoil and the three spellskites which may have been wrong but he showed me plateau in game 1 (to cast a thalia) and i worried about swords and pyrokinesis. As it turned out he kept a very slow hand with basically no action but a rishadan port to slow me down presumably. I killed him on turn 4 with a healthy 16 life with grindstone plus painter and a Reb in hand for any shenanigans on his part. I talked to him for a bit about his list and how i have lost to goblins in the past when they get a real fast pile driver start. I also asked him what he thought of CeddyP's list since I would assume that is the standard one. We also had a good chat about how Goblins is actually like an insane control deck ( vs creatures) but has to be an aggro deck against combo which kinda sucks.
Record after this round 5-1-0

Rd 7 vs Brian with Pimped out Elves Win 2-0
Brian sat down and warned me that he hadn't slept in several days and was feeling a little ill and wanted to let me know he might be calling a judge and running to puke in the bathroom. I said whatever you need to do, but please don't puke on my Japanese Painter deck :\ . In any event we started out games and this guy had some ridiculously pimp'd out cards, all foily or beta. Miscut (two cards on them) basic forests, just straight up insane stuff. I had some of my best draws of the day, and killed him on turn 2 game 1. On turn 4 in game 2 with a force of will for his qasali pridemage and then a spellskite in play when i went off with a second Force of will in his main deck.
Record after this round 6-1-0
Since I ended super quickly this round I shot off to find Nam and saw him in the feature match area but something seemed off, and i realized that there were way too few cards in his hand and in play, and it looked like he had gotten hit by the mulligan bat in his feature match against Belcher. It looked this is not a great MU for us anyway and I know he had already beaten it once on the day, so he was probably due for the loss, but it sucked because the guy playing it was real bad. In any event, he and I chatted for a while about what we do if paired, and we decided we were going to ID. We were pretty confident that X-1-1 would top 8 and pretty sure that x-2 definitely wouldn't. So while one of us could have scooped the other one in it would have meant no chance at the top 8 for the other person. We decided we didn't want to blast each other out of the tournament and drew, which allowed us to scout every other player at the top tables.

We also got to chat a little bit about sideboarding plans and seeing 4 BUG/BRUG decks in the top tables we talked about how insane Blood Moon was in this matchup. Hint this will be important later.

Rd 8 vs Nam Q Tran Player extraordinaire ID
Record after this round 6-1-1

Rd 9 vs Peter with BRUG or 4 color cascade or BUG Shardless plus BBE Loss 0-2
I knew what this guy was on after scouting the previous round and felt pretty good about it. Until i mulled to 4 on the draw in game 1. I didn't even really get to make a decision my 7 cards were all spells, my 6 was 5 lands and a tormod's crypt, my 5 was all spells, none of which were combo pieces, and my 4 was 2 lands and 2 brainstorms. Let's do this. My opponent plays a tapped land turn 1 and i play land go. My opponent then hymns me :(. I do not win this game despite casting brainstorm in response. IN game 2 i bring in spellskites and blood moons and keep a 1-lander with great furnace, opal, 2 welders, blood moon, transmute artifact and a brainstorm. I do not draw a land until my 5th turn. I probably should have mulligan'd but i figured i needed to get luck at this point anyhow to win. Anyway, that was that but this match Nam was featured against shardless bug and you can watch it on the old coverage page. He ended up top 8ing which you should probably already know, and i ended up a respectable 19th which is still good enough for some money and in the top 10%.
Record at the end of the tournament: 6-2-1

The overall record for the weekend for our 75 was 13-3-2. My game win percentage for the weekend was 70.6% which is pretty exciting I think. Though Nam's was a bit lower.

Anyhow, there are a couple things I would change about a the list, the biggest of which is cutting the extra wurmcoil out of the board. I think it is a dead card most of the time as long as RUG is getting pushed out by BUG maybe it can be replaced by another card for reanimator/sneak and show/omnitell or maybe even the 4th blood moon. I also think i want to go up to 21 lands in the main board, and there has been some discussion about trying to fit in the 3rd REB in the main. Other than that though i thought the list worked really well. I would definitely encourage you to play with the list at other Legacy events, but please test it before hand, there are a lot of subtle interactions that you can miss out on if you haven't played with all these cards before. I was very happy with the finishes, and just wished i could have finished top 16 so we would have seen 2 of my list up there.

The weekend was fun, despite ending pretty rainy and late. I hope everyone else had a good time too.

The current list is here on starcity: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59730

[gottfrid]

So I might be at odds with the mods here, in which case I will respectfully retract my opinion, however, the last couple of lists in here feel very different from traditional painter stone to me and could be in a separate thread (I know they were in one originally and were directed here).

I could critique the lists that are here, but I feel like I would be doing it from the frame of my style of list, and these are different enough that it might not make sense to do that.

That being said, if they are here, I am going to talk about them with respect to my own list. I want to know why a list with baleful strix and spire golem, are better than current technology. I think there are some interesting grind-ier lists out there (though Spire golem hasn't seen a lot of my testing) but my experience was that switching to those lists usually just made me a bad version of Miracles with RIP in it. I would much rather be focused very heavily on combo-ing quickly, with some resiliency and I think Transmute Artifact as an additional set of tutors lends itself to this. If you want to play a list that is focused on control with TA I guess it just seems like you would be better suited to play one of the various UB Tezz control lists floating around. Those lists might even want a blocker in the form of Spire Golem in them.

Maybe I am missing something fundamental but to me, we are playing a combo deck with force of wills (and in my case Welder) in it to win the game faster than our opponent, and shrug off their disruption, not to disrupt them, and then try to win incidentally.

This is exactly how I feel!

There really should be separate threads for transmute builds and straight up UR painter. Especially now that the TA version actually has made some great results!

I have tried TA in painter both irl and online and after playing a lot of painted stone I just think it's slow, conditional and messes with the mana in a deck that is hard pressed to have both sol lands and fetches. I could'nt imagine playing basic island in a painter deck that actually wants to win fast, even less large creatures or a plan B.

I mean, I realize that potential gain in transmuting for stuff. I believe the TA version may be very resilient and good on their own merits! I just feel like the difference in top/LED/blast numbers alone makes it almost useless for me to discuss that deck, and probably equally useless for the TA players to comment on my build.

If there was a forum that seriously discussed the fastest combo version I would regularly take part in the discussion. For example, I really need feedback on which sb cards that best address problematic cards/matchups.

If one version of the deck has to be "kicked out" to a new thread, I'd be fine with this thread still discussing the TA build and we'd start a new thread...

List:

4 painter
4 grindstone
4 intuition
4 welder
4 brainstorm
2 thought scour
4 top
5 red blasts
4 Force of will
3 mox opal
3 LED
3 seat of synod
3 furnace
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
3 volcanic island
5 fetchlands

SB at the moment:
4 leyline of sanctity
3 angel of despair
3 tormod's crypt
1 red blast
2 misdirection
2 pithing needle


Seems like a different deck? I agree

[warfordium]

Maindeck:
4 Painter's Servant
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder

3 Grim Monolith
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Mox Opal
4 Transmute Artifact

Lands
2 Great Furnace
2 Seat of the Synod
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Blood Moon
3 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast


I'm not in a graveyard meta, so the main deck value Crypt isn't that appealing. Might try a miser's Faithless Looting instead, or a Lotus Peta (perhaps its a metalcraft enabler?)

What about a Batterskull in the board in place of the extra Wurmspiralmachien?

[SirTylerGalt]

I'm not in a graveyard meta, so the main deck value Crypt isn't that appealing. Might try a miser's Faithless Looting instead, or a Lotus Peta (perhaps its a metalcraft enabler?)

What about a Batterskull in the board in place of the extra Wurmspiralmachien?


Maindeck Crypt is not only there to fight GY decks... It's also there to mill your opponent through Emrakul / Academy Ruins.

[TkDodo]

Edit: ....and here's the report!


Thanks for the report, it was a good read. It's nice that you liked the tops as well! Congrats on your finish.

Some questions:

Isn't the 3rd Seat of the Synod > the 2nd Great Furnace ? I believe that 10 red sources (6 fetches, 2 duals, 1 Mountain, 1 Great Furnace) should be enough (not even counting the Opals) for 2-3 blasts and 4 Welders. Getting to UU for TA can be troublesome, and Great Furnace seems to be the worst land in the list (wasteland-able and doesn't produce U)

Are 4 Tormod's Crypt really neccessary in the 75? I agree on the 1 maindeck, and I know we need 3 to Intuition them up postboard against GY decks, but with 4 TA and 3 Intution, having 3 postboard gives us a virtual 10 GY hate slots, which should be more than enough against GY dependant decks like Dredge and Reanimator. Against Emrakul decks it is nice to find the 3 card combo more reliably, but apparently the better plan is to beat them down with 1 power dudes ;)

I am surprised you didn't board out the REBs against Goblins. Against mono red decks, I normally board them out and put Painter on black. They will bring in their own blasts against us, they are a dead card for us without a Painter in play and we could give the more removal unnecessarily.

If you have a free SB slot, I recommend trying out Pyrite Spellbomb. It's a good 1-of, since it can be easily tutored up with TA, and it's recurrable removal with Welder or Academy Ruins. I started testing it because here in Europe, Death & Taxes became a lot more popular after it won the GP, and I lost to Maverick twice in Strassbourg. If they put a Mother plus a Revoker in play, we have no outs. Even just a Revoker is a scary thought because we need to find one of our REBs while having a Painter in play. Also, our backup solutoin (Wurmcoil Engine) is not that good against these decks because they have Swords to Plowshares. The Spellbomb is colorless damage (unless there is Painter in play of course) and one of the best solutions for us against hatebears.

[CalebD]

The monolith list is kinda sweet.

I like -1 furnace +1 seat.

I also like -1 crypt, -1 transmute for +1 city of traitors and +1 REB. This deck even has a backup win con in the form of wurmcoils, making crypt less necessary than usual, but I've never liked a potentially dead hoser in the maindeck of an efficient combo deck.

I've won games off of cycling Nihil Spellbomb with Mox Opal and Welder, and I'd add one over a crypt in the board. Plays around the random extraction and needle effects that can show up in Reanimator.

[merfolkotpt]

The monolith list is kinda sweet.

I like -1 furnace +1 seat.

I also like -1 crypt, -1 transmute for +1 city of traitors and +1 REB. This deck even has a backup win con in the form of wurmcoils, making crypt less necessary than usual, but I've never liked a potentially dead hoser in the maindeck of an efficient combo deck.

I've won games off of cycling Nihil Spellbomb with Mox Opal and Welder, and I'd add one over a crypt in the board. Plays around the random extraction and needle effects that can show up in Reanimator.

Hey Tk and Caleb,
Both of you guys nailed it, I actually made the first change for +1 seat -1 furnace in my list, but sent Nam my list (not actually current list) minus that change, so I guess we were on the same 74 (sorry Nam). As for the crypt, I have played with and without it, but in my experience winning off Wurmcoils is pretty tough to do against SnT decks, further having another 0 cc artifact for purposes of welding and turning on Opals, has been pretty good. I might be ok with +1 opal in that place, since I do want another mana source. Tormod's crypt has also been randomly good so many times (shutting off monguises, shrinking goyfs, wasting the 1st snapcaster, letting you BLOW OUT dredge sometimes) that I have found it to be worthwhile. I have been contemplating cutting the transmute for the third REB to allow you to intuition for it, and have 7 total protection spells and I think that is real interesting. I missed the third REB a couple times.

The nihil spell bomb switch is an interesting one (and almost certainly just correct) and cutting the 4th crypt in general out of the board seems reasonable to me. I have been contemplating going up to the 4th blood moon, or adding another REB/Pyroblast in that spot and the 3rd wurmcoil spot. I don't know if the difference between 3 and 4 blood moons is significant though, and siding in 5 more counterspells is tough to make room for when you want those. The other option i have is just adding my one-of karakas and venser back into the board in those spots, if reanimator is really going to be a thing again :\,since those (especially venser) give us some more awesome cards against omnitell, but they also are more flexible.



I am probably playing this at Legacy Champs so I will be testing a bit, but at the moment I am mostly focused on vintage.

As for this:

I am surprised you didn't board out the REBs against Goblins. Against mono red decks, I normally board them out and put Painter on black. They will bring in their own blasts against us, they are a dead card for us without a Painter in play and we could give the more removal unnecessarily.
It was a bit of a hedge, I considered opposing REBs, but I was a bit concerned about the existence of Leyline of Sanctity to shut off the combo, and I wanted a way to deal with it (another point in the venser column as a possible SB inclusion). That being said my first painter named black when there was no leyline in play on turn 0, and if i had needed a game 3 i might have sided out my REBs.

Proposed new sideboard:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Venser
1 Karakas (this could very easily be the 2nd venser or a different card too)
3 Spellskite
3 Blood Moon
3 Flusterstorm

As for the maindeck i think i am going to try, for initial testing, -1 TA +1 REB but I am also considering making that spot a City of traitors or an Academy Ruins too during initial testing.

[Dice_Box]

How do people feel about taking a page from fish and running Glass Spinner in the side as a way to protect Welder? I do not play this version, but I am watching it with the entent to try. The issue I find when playing mono red is that my welders die, fast. Now if I wanted them alive and I was splashing blue Kiera comes to mind.

[merfolkotpt]

I think spellskite is better, it is easier to cast and can be welded. Kira is sort of interesting, but skite is awesome. YOu haven't lived until you have had a skite in play and one in the yard with an active welder. Nice Abrupt Decays bro.

[Ish]

@new thread discussion
I really don't see a huge difference between TA builds and not. We are still a UR build using cantrips, counters, and tutors. TA is just another tool. Having a single discussion of the merits of different builds in one thread is beneficial to all playing UR painter.

But I have a question about SB
I really like leyline of sanctity. How do others feel about this? Against discard and storm it just buys us sooo much time. And protects an "all in" hand.

[TkDodo]

But I have a question about SB
I really like leyline of sanctity. How do others feel about this? Against discard and storm it just buys us sooo much time. And protects an "all in" hand.

It's an interesting idea, but I can't really get behind it. Unlike other decks, I don't think we want to mulligan for the Leyline. Also, I don't think discard is our main problem. We have enough ways to play around discard: hiding with Brainstorm/SD.Top, recurring with Welder/Academy Ruins, tutoring up more stuff with Transmute Artifact and Intuition. Most discard decks (Jund, BUG) are also weak to Blood Moon and I also want Spellskite in these matchups, and against Esper, I definitely want Spellskites and REBs from the board. So the question is: what to cut from the board and what to take out from your main deck when brining in leyline?

Now against Storm, it sounds more promising, especially since they will bring in Abrupt Decay as the main form of interacting with us and might be cold to it if they don't bring in bounce effects, and Goblin Tokens are ususally not fast enough against us.
I just don't see it being good enough to take four slots in the board. Against Storm, I have been very happy with 3 Flusterstorms, 2 more REB effects and a singleton Thorn of Amethyst to tutor with TA.

[Ish]

This is why I love this forum. Great thoughtful response! I can really see the downside to having leyline of sanctity, and I love the thorn idea side.

havnt had a real chance to test with spellskite, seems good though I think.

I playing this deck after being on mono red iPainter for some time now. My recent matches have been plagued by basic lands though! Not sure blood moon is as powerful as it was a few months ago. But here we can play it in the side anyway for those greedy manabases.

[Ish]

Here's my current list for comment:

Creatures:10
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Wurmcoil Engine

Spells:30
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Mox Opal
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Grim Monolith
4 Transmute Artifact
3 Intuition
4 Force of Will

Lands:20
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spellskite
1 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge

[Koby]

#game.

[merfolkotpt]

Congrats to Koby on another t16 for UR painter. The list looked neat. Was just 2 intuition enough for you? What about the izzet charm, did it work out?

As for that other list that just got posted, i am super happy having gone down to 0 LED (I have three monoliths that do almost identical work) and 3 Transmutes for the 21st land, but that seems like a personal preference. I also still would not play a maindeck with 0 tormod's crypts but again that is personal preference.

[Ish]

Congrats to Koby on another t16 for UR painter. The list looked neat. Was just 2 intuition enough for you? What about the izzet charm, did it work out?

As for that other list that just got posted, i am super happy having gone down to 0 LED (I have three monoliths that do almost identical work) and 3 Transmutes for the 21st land, but that seems like a personal preference. I also still would not play a maindeck with 0 tormod's crypts but again that is personal preference.

Thanks, I've debated the LED, but has saved me a few times due to 0 cost, or needing to dump an artifact.

As for the crypt. I also agree! I have since gone, -1 Top, +1 Crypt or Nihil Spell Bomb


Also: Congrats Koby!!! My friend just pointed me to your T16.

[Koby]

OK so my story starts about a week ago after I took Maverick to a local prize tournament, and proceeded to go 2-3. Yep, def not playing that deck without more tuning or practice. Time to switch gears...

So I came back to this list, and specifically the one I played about 18 months ago with Tezzeret Agent of Bolas. I put it together, and drew the following goldfish hand:

Goblin Welder
Force of Will
Grindstone
Painter's Servant
LED
Mox Opal
Ancient Tomb
...

Yep, definitely on this deck now! (that's a turn 1 kill with Force of Will and Welder backup in case of counters)
I ran a few test games in the week leading up to SCG LA, and concluded two things:
1) Tezzeret is really hard to protect against UR/x tempo due to flyers and Lightning Bolts.
2) Playing only 1 Island was insufficient to play around Price of Progress.

So naturally, I came back to Hilty's list, and incorporated the few suggestions from this thread. I came to the following list:

4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder
2 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
1 Nihil Spellbomb (as an answer to Sneak Show decks maindeck)
3 Transmute Artifact
2 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 REB/pyros

1 unknown slot

3 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 blue fetchland
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors

SB:
3 Spellskite
3 Ensnaring Bridge (again, Sneak Show)
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Tormod's Crypt

The unknown slot was Izzet Charm, 4th Pyroblast, or a maindeck Spellskite. In a short conversation with Hilty, we concluded that Izzet Charm provided the functionality of another Blast, utility for Goblin Welder with looting, and a way to kill Delvers and Thalias in preparation of going off. I ended up only using the Shock ability, and I didn't get to use it much since I drew the combo pretty easily.

Quick rundown of my matches:

Round 1 - Sneak Show (2-0) -- naturally drawn Nihil Spellbomb in game 1 means I was ready to fire the combo. G2 was Ensnaring Bridge lockdown off S&T.
Round 2 - Elves (2-0) -- We're the faster deck when an opponent does not interact.
Round 3 - Hive Mind (2-1) -- I win G1 on turn 2 with double Ancient Tomb, Painter, and Grindstone. #easymode I lose G2 on turn 2. G3 starts at the 7th turn of the match. LOL
Round 4 - Belcher (2-0) -- I win G1 on a mull to 5 because I topdeck Force of Will. Flusterstorm is boss!
Round 5 - Elves (2-0) -- on camera, see www.twitch.tv/scglive [I'll update the link later today once I have access to it]
Round 6 - Death & Taxes (1-2) -- Turn 2 Thalia on the draw really slows this deck down. Even moreso when backed by Wasteland and Rishadan Port. G2 is an Ensnaring Bridge lock with multiple Welders. G3 I'm on the draw again vs a turn 2 Thalia backed with Wastelands :\
Round 7 - BUG Delver (Ulanov) (1-2) -- G1 I form a plan to grind with Wurmcoil off Transmute Artifact. I draw Grindstone and don't adjust that game plan accordingly. Transmute Artifact resolves with 3 mana floating after saccing Grim Monolith; since TA resolved I could have just won with Grindstone. Instead I bring out Wurmcoil and lose the race to double Goyf and double DRS drains. G2 I draw 2 Grindstone 2 Painter's Servant and 3 lands #easymode G3 I'm struggling to assemble the combo and find REB to kill Tombstalker and/or Goyf. I take a hard line leaning on Izzet Charm looting, and draw 2 lands instead.
Round 8 - Elves (2-0) -- See round 2.
Round 9 - bUrg Delver (2-1) -- G1 I go off when my opponent is tapped out. G2 I lose to flying beats. G3 I generate 2 Wurm tokens per turn for 4 turns with Welders and Wurmcoil.

Final result: 7-2 matches, 16-5 games
vs Combo decks 6-0 matches, 12-1 games
vs Delver decks 1-1 matches, 3-3 games
vs fair decks 1-2, 4-5 games

I also got a deck tech, but credits to the list goes to Jacob Hilty (merfolkofpt).

Thoughts on specific cards:
Nihil Spellbomb - I think a single maindeck is necessary and useful. It's often boarded out, but if the current Sneak Show trend continues, then it will continue to be needed (either this or Tormod's Crypt). I agree with CalebD that the cycling ability makes it more useful.
Intuition - I started with 3, but feel like it's rarely used when Transmute Artifact is available too. It shines with Welder obviously. I used this card about 3-4 times in the day, equally between Welder shenanigans and digging for FoW/REB.
Wurmcoil Engine - I used it only three times on the day, each against the fair decks. It wasn't fast enough to race double Goyf without any Welder support. It was enough to discourage Mother of Runes / Thalia / Jitte attacks; and it was very useful to stabilize against Delvers and flyers, but only with Welder support. I feel like having the 2nd copy become Sundering Titan could be useful, especially against Delver decks. It needs more testing to figure out.

[Vandalize]

OK so my story starts about a week ago after I took Maverick to a local prize tournament, and proceeded to go 2-3. Yep, def not playing that deck without more tuning or practice. Time to switch gears...

So I came back to this list, and specifically the one I played about 18 months ago with Tezzeret Agent of Bolas. I put it together, and drew the following goldfish hand:

Goblin Welder
Force of Will
Grindstone
Painter's Servant
LED
Mox Opal
Ancient Tomb
...

Yep, definitely on this deck now! (that's a turn 1 kill with Force of Will and Welder backup in case of counters)
I ran a few test games in the week leading up to SCG LA, and concluded two things:
1) Tezzeret is really hard to protect against UR/x tempo due to flyers and Lightning Bolts.
2) Playing only 1 Island was insufficient to play around Price of Progress.

So naturally, I came back to Hilty's list, and incorporated the few suggestions from this thread. I came to the following list:

4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder
2 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
1 Nihil Spellbomb (as an answer to Sneak Show decks maindeck)
3 Transmute Artifact
2 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 REB/pyros

1 unknown slot

3 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 blue fetchland
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors

SB:
3 Spellskite
3 Ensnaring Bridge (again, Sneak Show)
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Tormod's Crypt

The unknown slot was Izzet Charm, 4th Pyroblast, or a maindeck Spellskite. In a short conversation with Hilty, we concluded that Izzet Charm provided the functionality of another Blast, utility for Goblin Welder with looting, and a way to kill Delvers and Thalias in preparation of going off. I ended up only using the Shock ability, and I didn't get to use it much since I drew the combo pretty easily.

Quick rundown of my matches:

Round 1 - Sneak Show (2-0) -- naturally drawn Nihil Spellbomb in game 1 means I was ready to fire the combo. G2 was Ensnaring Bridge lockdown off S&T.
Round 2 - Elves (2-0) -- We're the faster deck when an opponent does not interact.
Round 3 - Hive Mind (2-1) -- I win G1 on turn 2 with double Ancient Tomb, Painter, and Grindstone. #easymode I lose G2 on turn 2. G3 starts at the 7th turn of the match. LOL
Round 4 - Belcher (2-0) -- I win G1 on a mull to 5 because I topdeck Force of Will. Flusterstorm is boss!
Round 5 - Elves (2-0) -- on camera, see www.twitch.tv/scglive [I'll update the link later today once I have access to it]
Round 6 - Death & Taxes (1-2) -- Turn 2 Thalia on the draw really slows this deck down. Even moreso when backed by Wasteland and Rishadan Port. G2 is an Ensnaring Bridge lock with multiple Welders. G3 I'm on the draw again vs a turn 2 Thalia backed with Wastelands :\
Round 7 - BUG Delver (Ulanov) (1-2) -- G1 I form a plan to grind with Wurmcoil off Transmute Artifact. I draw Grindstone and don't adjust that game plan accordingly. Transmute Artifact resolves with 3 mana floating after saccing Grim Monolith; since TA resolved I could have just won with Grindstone. Instead I bring out Wurmcoil and lose the race to double Goyf and double DRS drains. G2 I draw 2 Grindstone 2 Painter's Servant and 3 lands #easymode G3 I'm struggling to assemble the combo and find REB to kill Tombstalker and/or Goyf. I take a hard line leaning on Izzet Charm looting, and draw 2 lands instead.
Round 8 - Elves (2-0) -- See round 2.
Round 9 - bUrg Delver (2-1) -- G1 I go off when my opponent is tapped out. G2 I lose to flying beats. G3 I generate 2 Wurm tokens per turn for 4 turns with Welders and Wurmcoil.

Final result: 7-2 matches, 16-5 games
vs Combo decks 6-0 matches, 12-1 games
vs Delver decks 1-1 matches, 3-3 games
vs fair decks 1-2, 4-5 games

I also got a deck tech, but credits to the list goes to Jacob Hilty (merfolkofpt).

Thoughts on specific cards:
Nihil Spellbomb - I think a single maindeck is necessary and useful. It's often boarded out, but if the current Sneak Show trend continues, then it will continue to be needed (either this or Tormod's Crypt). I agree with CalebD that the cycling ability makes it more useful.
Intuition - I started with 3, but feel like it's rarely used when Transmute Artifact is available too. It shines with Welder obviously. I used this card about 3-4 times in the day, equally between Welder shenanigans and digging for FoW/REB.
Wurmcoil Engine - I used it only three times on the day, each against the fair decks. It wasn't fast enough to race double Goyf without any Welder support. It was enough to discourage Mother of Runes / Thalia / Jitte attacks; and it was very useful to stabilize against Delvers and flyers, but only with Welder support. I feel like having the 2nd copy become Sundering Titan could be useful, especially against Delver decks. It needs more testing to figure out.

How exactly are you cantripping from Nihil Spellbomb if you can't produce black mana aside from Mox Opal? Tormod's Crypt is clearly better maindeck.

[Koby]

How exactly are you cantripping from Nihil Spellbomb if you can't produce black mana? Tormod's Crypt is clearly better maindeck.

Mox Opal.

[Vandalize]

Mox Opal.

Yeah, just realized it. But Crypt is still better, 0CMC vs 2CMC.

[Koby]

Yeah, just realized it. But Crypt is still better, 0CMC vs 2CMC.

... Nihil Spellbomb costs :1: to cast and only tapping to activate...

[merfolkotpt]

I think that the nihil spellbomb is probably right, however, I will continue to run japanese chronicles tormod's crypt because Jap Chronicles is better than anything in a new border.

Just call me sub-optimal. I would say in general don't worry too much about this card, and keep note of the times it would have mattered one way or the other.

Koby, once again way to get the deck out there. I think that after cutting the LED a way to discard cards for welder in the form of izzet charm is nice, and sundering titan is interesting. I still don't want to go down from 3 intuitions, i find the card to be bonkers.

Last thing i noticed, you are only on 19 (!) lands, i know you are playing 3 opals and 3 grim monoliths but that is still 25 mana sources to my 26. Did you ever feel light on mana, or want the academy ruins?

I am a bit confused about how you don't race 2 goyfs with your wurmcoil though. Don't you just sit back and block til you hit welder or combo pieces. They can't attack profitably so until they have a flyer you can sit back (though if they have a flyer i see the issue).

[Koby]

I think that the nihil spellbomb is probably right, however, I will continue to run japanese chronicles tormod's crypt because Jap Chronicles is better than anything in a new border.

Just call me sub-optimal. I would say in general don't worry too much about this card, and keep note of the times it would have mattered one way or the other.

The cost may matter in situations when Mox Opal providing mana through metalcraft would be a make or break situation. I think it has less than 5% impact on whether you play Spellbomb or Crypt.


Koby, once again way to get the deck out there. I think that after cutting the LED a way to discard cards for welder in the form of izzet charm is nice, and sundering titan is interesting. I still don't want to go down from 3 intuitions, i find the card to be bonkers.

That was my ideas as well - Thirst for Knowledge or Izzet Charm could both fit. Charm is a little tricker to cast due to double mana cost, but is also more flexible.


Last thing i noticed, you are only on 19 (!) lands, i know you are playing 3 opals and 3 grim monoliths but that is still 25 mana sources to my 26. Did you ever feel light on mana, or want the academy ruins?

I only felt constrained against Thalia and Wasteland/Port. Usually never had a problem, and if I did it was getting to 6 mana for TA+Wurmcoil, or just casting the Wurmcoil.


I am a bit confused about how you don't race 2 goyfs with your wurmcoil though. Don't you just sit back and block til you hit welder or combo pieces. They can't attack profitably so until they have a flyer you can sit back (though if they have a flyer i see the issue).

I guess the situation at hand was a bit worse for sitting on Wurmcoil. I was at around 10 life facing a single Goyf and single DRS. I attack to go to 16 and put him at 12. At EOT, he drains me [9], attacks (5/6) [9], then casts a second Goyf and second DRS. If I don't attack, I'm dead in 2 turns to DRS activations. Thus, I needed to pressure him. Along this, I recognized I punted away a win, so I was feeling frustrated with my poor decision, and likely miscounting the turns I had left.

[nedleeds]

A deck like Punishing Loam might be likely to have Chalice on 1 vs. 20 blast/grindstone/welder/top.dec ... crypt would be better in those situations ...

[Koby]

A deck like Punishing Loam might be likely to have Chalice on 1 vs. 20 blast/grindstone/welder/top.dec ... crypt would be better in those situations ...

Usually don't have an issue with Chalice @ 1; Transmute Artifact fixes that rather easily. As does Wurmcoil Engine beatdown.

[merfolkotpt]

Against punishing loam, or punishing Jund i really miss the blood moons out of the board in your list Koby. That is my biggest surprise factor. So much so that i didn't even really notice at first, because it seems so crazy to me to not have access. I don't know about the meta you faced, but i simply cannot beat Jund and Shardless bug without Blood Moon.

[Ish]

Against punishing loam, or punishing Jund i really miss the blood moons out of the board in your list Koby. That is my biggest surprise factor. So much so that i didn't even really notice at first, because it seems so crazy to me to not have access. I don't know about the meta you faced, but i simply cannot beat Jund and Shardless bug without Blood Moon.

I agree with blood moon. Just too many auto wins. I play 3 in the board and I swear I want to play 4 sometimes.

In regards to koby's list though. I'm trying out the izzet charm in place of my singleton LED. The three modes are all relevant and the looting is comparable to LED GY dump. It's also another blue card to pitch to FoW which I really like.

Played the deck last night at our LGS. Went 2-2 meh. No revaluations discovered, but the player has to get better with the deck doh! Especially with mulligans.

I did get beat by elves... Damn progenitus. That's pretty hard to beat, since you want bridge in that matchup too, but the. You need to win with wurmcoil engine. Anyone have any good ideas as elves gets popular again? Am I missing anything?

[merfolkotpt]

I agree with blood moon. Just too many auto wins. I play 3 in the board and I swear I want to play 4 sometimes.

In regards to koby's list though. I'm trying out the izzet charm in place of my singleton LED. The three modes are all relevant and the looting is comparable to LED GY dump. It's also another blue card to pitch to FoW which I really like.

Played the deck last night at our LGS. Went 2-2 meh. No revaluations discovered, but the player has to get better with the deck doh! Especially with mulligans.

I did get beat by elves... Damn progenitus. That's pretty hard to beat, since you want bridge in that matchup too, but the. You need to win with wurmcoil engine. Anyone have any good ideas as elves gets popular again? Am I missing anything?

Unless they have two progenituses (progeniti?) you can still win the game with the combo. The progenitus just becomes the only card left in their library. Then they draw it, then the next turn they have no cards to draw.

It is a surprisingly hard deck to play, with welder interactions and tutors, there are a lot of lines that are not immediately apparent. I just would jam game against some tempo deck (RUG or RWU) until you have a 50% MU there and then start testing against the rest of the format.

[TkDodo]

Congrats on your result Koby. Also good deck-tech.


Unless they have two progenituses (progeniti?) you can still win the game with the combo. The progenitus just becomes the only card left in their library. Then they draw it, then the next turn they have no cards to draw.

Well normally, 1 turn is all Elves needs. As you can see in Koby's feature match, in G2 he was on 1 life when he combo'ed. 1 turn can make all the difference, since they will usually have a bunch of creatures in play already.

While I think that 2 alterante win cons (2 WCE) is too much preboard, I'm pretty certain that only 5 tutors (3 TA and 2 Intuition) is not enough. TA is the best card in the deck and the reason we play 3 Grim Monolith, so I think it should be a 4 of.

I also can't believe that Nihil Spellbomb is correct MD. Crypt is just so much better when you Transmute for it, e.g. T2 against Dredge or Reanimator by saccing a land. It's the reason why GY-dependent decks are a very good matchup G1. It's even more true if you run Academy Ruins. I even tutored for it against Storm when he T2 Burning Wished for Past in Flames. I wouldn't want to trade that for the off chance of drawing a card (3 sources is not enough to cycle it consistently). If you have, say, an Underground Sea as well, then it should be good, but I don't think we want to stretch the mana base for that.


I agree with blood moon. Just too many auto wins. I play 3 in the board and I swear I want to play 4 sometimes.

In regards to koby's list though. I'm trying out the izzet charm in place of my singleton LED. The three modes are all relevant and the looting is comparable to LED GY dump. It's also another blue card to pitch to FoW which I really like.

Played the deck last night at our LGS. Went 2-2 meh. No revaluations discovered, but the player has to get better with the deck doh! Especially with mulligans.

I did get beat by elves... Damn progenitus. That's pretty hard to beat, since you want bridge in that matchup too, but the. You need to win with wurmcoil engine. Anyone have any good ideas as elves gets popular again? Am I missing anything?

+1 on the moons!

Regarding mulligans: I've come to the conclusion that the deck mulligans extremely well. I've won games with as little as 4 cards in hand. G1 against unknown I usually mulligan every hand that doesn't have the combo or a combo piece plus a tutor (or at least a piece and a top). Of course that varies if you know what you are up against or in G2 where you want to mull for hate (e.g. blood moon) or keep hands with more protection (e.g. spellskite) but less gas.

[Ish]

Unless they have two progenituses (progeniti?) you can still win the game with the combo. The progenitus just becomes the only card left in their library. Then they draw it, then the next turn they have no cards to draw.

Is this absolutely correct? It doesn't create an intimate loop due to the fact it never goes to the yard. That's how I understood it.

[Koby]

Unless they have two progenituses (progeniti?) you can still win the game with the combo. The progenitus just becomes the only card left in their library. Then they draw it, then the next turn they have no cards to draw.

Is this absolutely correct? It doesn't create an intimate loop due to the fact it never goes to the yard. That's how I understood it.

Grindstone will only continue to mill if there are exactly 2 cards milled. Progenitus will continue to get shuffled into the deck until it's the last card. Then, since only one card is milled, Grindstone will stop.

[Dice_Box]

And after stone stops Pro goes back into the library, leaving one card behind. They get an extra turn out of Pro, but I have never seen that matter.

[Ish]

Thanks! This is good to know

[kingtk3]

Mini report of a 5 round tournament.

R1 vs Jund: I win G1 and lose G2 and G3 due to infinite removals (in G2 he played 7 removal over 8 turns...) 1-2
R2 vs Affinity: I win easily both matches in the first three turns 2-0
R3 vs dredge: I win both games, the second thanks to a topdecked spellbomb that stops him from going off next turn 2-0
R4 vs Dark Maverick: StP, decay, GSZ for qasali, discard... I lose both games to infinite stream of removals 0-2
R5 vs Patriot: I win one game but lost the other two (in G3 I was hiding under a bridge but manage to not see a land for more than 10 turns with three active tops while my opponent manages to draw 2 STP and 4 lightning bolts to kill all my creatures and myself...) 1-2

I can confirm Koby's data: this deck is really weak to fair decks with 7+ pieces of removals, which is kinda strange for a combo deck...

Note that plan B (wurmcoil) wasn't useful because against Jund abrut decay destroyed monolith before I could use it with transmute artifact and killed my welders; W decks simply have StP.

I think the deck needs to be adjusted to fight those strategies, maybe with another plan B: what do you think?

[Ish]

Abrupt decay shouldn't be a problem because of welder. 7 removal over 8 turns is an anomaly, you can't judge results based on that one match.

Bring in spellskite outta the board. I ran 3 and it was an all star vs removal!



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[Monkey_Island]

Has Lightning Greaves been tested as a solution for removal + Welder acceleration?

[TkDodo]

R1 vs Jund: I win G1 and lose G2 and G3 due to infinite removals (in G2 he played 7 removal over 8 turns...) 1-2
R2 vs Affinity: I win easily both matches in the first three turns 2-0
R3 vs dredge: I win both games, the second thanks to a topdecked spellbomb that stops him from going off next turn 2-0
R4 vs Dark Maverick: StP, decay, GSZ for qasali, discard... I lose both games to infinite stream of removals 0-2
R5 vs Patriot: I win one game but lost the other two (in G3 I was hiding under a bridge but manage to not see a land for more than 10 turns with three active tops while my opponent manages to draw 2 STP and 4 lightning bolts to kill all my creatures and myself...) 1-2


I am very open to suggestions for an alternate plan B, however the Wurmcoil was great for me so far. BUG and Jund almost cannot beat a resolved WCE. As you said, they can decay a Grim Monolith to stop it, but then again, they need their Decays for Blood Moon, the combo, Welders and so on. It's not like they don't have any other targets. Of course StoP is a problem against decks playing white. Dark Maverick sounds very hard to beat, at the GP last year I lost to Maverick and Punishing Maverick on day 2. Spellskite and Blood Moon are really key against fair 3 color decks with lots of removal.

[Ish]

GP DC Results

Here's the list I registered:

Creatures:10
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Wurmcoil Engine

Spells:30
1 Izzet Charm
2 Mox Opal
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Grim Monolith
4 Transmute Artifact
3 Intuition
4 Force of Will

Lands:20
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spellskite
3 Blood Moon
3 Ensnaring Bridge

There it is. Overall I was very happy with the performance. I was knocked out of day 2 in rought 8 going 5-3. I've only been piloting this version of painter for about a month now, and I'm sure I made some blunders, though I can't really look back and pick out any that cost me a match. My losses came from "just getting beat". My losses came from what I thought were compitent players who drew and played the right cards at the right time and came out on top. My deck never "screwed" me nor do I think I punted any game.

Games:
Round 1: Shardless BUG 1-2 (loss)
This match was grueling. Went almost the whole match length grinding removal and threats back and forth. In the end on curve hyms, thoughtseizes, and abrupt decays just got him there. Overall I feel like with moons in the sideboard, and spellskites this match should be in our favor slightly.

Round 2: Sneak Attack 2-0 (win)
The big bully on the block coming into this event, with TNN decks being somewhat a question. I thought this may be a tough matchup with the Emrakuls, and was pretty nervous after seeing, island, ponder, volc, brainstorm... yep gotta be show and tell. Turn 4 he resolves a S&T, winning the back and forth counter war into an Emrakul. One of the few times my WCE felt inadequate. Game: Loss.
Game 2-3 go a little different. I bring in 3 bridge, 3 flusterstorm, 2 crypt. Counter a few things, land a bridge either cast or via SnT and they're in trouble. I eventually land 2 and 3 bridges between welder and intuition and its game over. I actually feel very comfortable with this matchup now. (disclaimer: I also played SnT/Sneak Attack for a long time and know the deck in and out)

Round 3: Manaless Ichorid 2-0 (win)
Player gives it away with die win and "I'll draw". Muligan to 5 due to slow hands and whooops! Look its my 1 of tormod's crypt. Play Grindstone then crypt and opponent concedes the game. (no cards to scoop). Game 2 goes crypt into turn 3/4 wurmcoil engine. Match lasted about 10 minutes. This should be an easy win with all our grave hate for eldrazi.

Round 4: Sneak Attack 2-0 (win)
Opponent is tardy and recieves a game 1 loss. I combo off on turn 3 (my board: welder/painter/grindstone) revealing that he's on sneak attack. Hmm... ok. Next turn I play Intuition opponents EOT for crypt plus stuff and win on turn 4. Sneak attack IS a deck! I will be leaving Crypt in the MD for a long time now! Never even a dead card with Mox Opal/Welder/Transmute anyway.

Round 5: Nic Fit 2-0 (win)
Combo turn 3/turn4. Find out he's not playing abrupt decay. Not much to report.

Round 6: Jund 2-0 (win)
Combo early game 1 with no opossing disruption. Game 2 I play T1 welder, T2 Monolith into Spellskite and Grindstone. T3 Painter. T4 combo with spellskite protecting.

Round 7: UB Tezzerator 1-2 (loss)
Well I'm feeling pretty good now, notice not a single game loss since round 2. I lose to chalice games 1 and 3. He counters any answer I have to it. This I believe is a very close matchup, but an early chalice before we can stick welder really slows us down.

Round 8: RUG Delver 0-2 (loss)
OUCH! My opponent just has everything he needs both games. Well that happens, and I shake and wish him good luck with his "win and in" round 9.



Thanks to all my opponents. Everyone that I played made the day a blast and all were gracious winners or losers after the match. I am excited to continue minor tweaks and progressing this deck. The deck just feels powerful, and not too fragile. Has alot of answers, and proactive threats. Love the deck!

What I want to try:
MD: -1 mox opal, +1 LED. There were times I just really wanted 3 free many (not really the discard). Mox opal was so-so most of day, but was amazing a few times. Cried when I drew a second.
SB: -1 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Ratchet bomb. Vs Sneak Attack I only brought in 2 crypt. I wanted to counter and lock them out well before going for the combo and couldn't bring out enough stuff to justify 4 GY hate pieces.

[TkDodo]

Any news on how the Izzet Charm was? UR seems like its difficult to cast sometimes. As protection, it doesn't seem very reliable the turn you go off (I rarely find myself having two mana available the turn I combo). Randomly killing a dude sounds good, though I like Pyrite Spellbomb better for that purpose since its tutorable. Maybe another Top would be better in that slot?

[Ish]

Any news on how the Izzet Charm was? UR seems like its difficult to cast sometimes. As protection, it doesn't seem very reliable the turn you go off (I rarely find myself having two mana available the turn I combo). Randomly killing a dude sounds good, though I like Pyrite Spellbomb better for that purpose since its tutorable. Maybe another Top would be better in that slot?

I really only got to use it as faithless looting a few times... which was pretty good. The biggest reason I play it is because it does 3 relevant things that I can choose from depending on the board/my hand... But more importantly also pitches to FOW!

Think of it as... A fifth brainstorm (kinda), a fourth red blast/force (kinda), or an LED (kinda).

As far as top goes, I like 2 of. Between brainstorm, intuition, and transmute you shouldn't have to be digging that often. It's really a slow grindy card. This deck wants to be fast, and like other blue combo decks only slows down when you need protection backup.





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[merfolkotpt]

I played this at GP DC too, but my performance may have been slightly hampered by excessive drinking of Yaeger Bombs with Team Serious Idiots (otherwise known as my friends). In any event I played pretty loose and dropped at 4-3. My losses were to Jund having the stone perfect cards against my turn 2 blood moon (basic forest in hand followed by double deathrite with multiple lands in the yard), with me having ~15 outs and not drawing one for 6 turns. Not that I am bitter. My other losses were to a supremely skillful UR delver player (who didn't reveal a lightning bolt to his delver because he knew i would mill it in response and that he would hit me for exactsies the following turn) and to Death and Taxes. He had a good draw and when they hit the right draw (including multiple revokers and mother of runes) it is hard to win.

Throughout the day i was missing the extra tutors and access to an additional Wurmcoil out of the board, because there were multiple games that i would have won if I ever had access to wurmcoil. My list was about standard but with 3 TA 3 intuition and no led. The LED I didn't miss too much, though in testing i hit on a couple turn 2s where I would have been able to win t3 if I had an LED but because I didn't i had to wait an additional turn. The Academy Ruins was good most of the times I saw it, and I think I would be ok with going down to 2 Grim monolith, or 1 Mox Opal for access to the LED.

Overall, I am getting a little less hyped on Painter. I think the deck is powerful for sure, but TNN give the tempo decks an out to Wurmcoil, and more and more Sneak and Show is making the environment pretty hostile. I think for the time being I am going to retire on painter (figures the week after I get the last 5 cards in japanese) and try out some Dark Rituals. I am happy to keep discussing stuff though if people want to try new strategies.

[Ish]

Overall, I am getting a little less hyped on Painter. I think the deck is powerful for sure, but TNN give the tempo decks an out to Wurmcoil, and more and more Sneak and Show is making the environment pretty hostile. I think for the time being I am going to retire on painter (figures the week after I get the last 5 cards in japanese) and try out some Dark Rituals. I am happy to keep discussing stuff though if people want to try new strategies.

This I don't get.

1) TNN decks... sure Wurmcoil can't block. But I would side these out here anyway trying to force the combo through. Bring in Bridges to deal with tempo/tnn decks if you need to.
2) Sneak Attack. This I feel is a favorable matchup. 3 E.Bridges outta the side shuts them down. And we have blue to play the defensive counter war until we drop a bridge (cast or off a resovled SnT).

I think you are looking at the deck and matchups wrong.

What I feel is a bad matchup is more like Esper Stone Blade (yes they do have TNN). Also decks punishing you with chalice can be an issue though we do have TA.

[merfolkotpt]

This I don't get.

1) TNN decks... sure Wurmcoil can't block. But I would side these out here anyway trying to force the combo through. Bring in Bridges to deal with tempo/tnn decks if you need to.
2) Sneak Attack. This I feel is a favorable matchup. 3 E.Bridges outta the side shuts them down. And we have blue to play the defensive counter war until we drop a bridge (cast or off a resovled SnT).

I think you are looking at the deck and matchups wrong.

What I feel is a bad matchup is more like Esper Stone Blade (yes they do have TNN). Also decks punishing you with chalice can be an issue though we do have TA.

Thanks for the insult on my playskill, I have only been playing this deck for like 2 years straight. Siding out Wurmcoil vs the tempo decks is terrible because they have a fast enough clock and enough removal to make the combo untenable. The whole reason we added TA to the deck was to make that matchup better, and by better I mean 50%. The issue is with TNN there to make Wurmcoil not do anything (by which I mean not gain life late in the game) they can just attack with delver and burn us out. Bringing in bridges against these decks isn't good because it means we have to have no hand which makes defending the combo worse (and we don't have enough slots for it since we are bringing in spellskite and flusterstorm, and REB if they don't have red). In addition a lot of the tempo decks have ancient grudge or abrupt decay which makes bridge especially bad against them.

As for sneak attack, while bridge is good vs them and does buy a lot of time, they can still just win the game on turn 2, and they do play bounce spells. More importantly if they are smart they know the whole match is about beating ensnaring bridge, so they can play accordingly. I agree against an unprepared opponent especially in game 2 we have an advantage, but we are still basically conceding game 1 since it is almost impossible to win, and then hoping to win game 2 and 3, which if our opponents aren't stupid gives them a whole game to figure out what cards are important. Also, by playing 3 ensnaring bridges (which I did at the GP and didn't like) we are wasting a ton of SB slots on just this one MU, which makes the sideboard weaker overall.

Like I said, the format is becoming more and more aggressive to this deck, and I would rather play something that is better suited for the current meta, which in my mind is a faster combo deck that gets to capitalize on the fact that people are playing a slower combo deck primarily, and also that tempo decks are evolving to play slower cards.

[Ish]

Thanks for the insult on my playskill, I have only been playing this deck for like 2 years straight. Siding out Wurmcoil vs the tempo decks is terrible because they have a fast enough clock and enough removal to make the combo untenable. The whole reason we added TA to the deck was to make that matchup better, and by better I mean 50%. The issue is with TNN there to make Wurmcoil not do anything (by which I mean not gain life late in the game) they can just attack with delver and burn us out. Bringing in bridges against these decks isn't good because it means we have to have no hand which makes defending the combo worse (and we don't have enough slots for it since we are bringing in spellskite and flusterstorm, and REB if they don't have red). In addition a lot of the tempo decks have ancient grudge or abrupt decay which makes bridge especially bad against them.

As for sneak attack, while bridge is good vs them and does buy a lot of time, they can still just win the game on turn 2, and they do play bounce spells. More importantly if they are smart they know the whole match is about beating ensnaring bridge, so they can play accordingly. I agree against an unprepared opponent especially in game 2 we have an advantage, but we are still basically conceding game 1 since it is almost impossible to win, and then hoping to win game 2 and 3, which if our opponents aren't stupid gives them a whole game to figure out what cards are important. Also, by playing 3 ensnaring bridges (which I did at the GP and didn't like) we are wasting a ton of SB slots on just this one MU, which makes the sideboard weaker overall.

Like I said, the format is becoming more and more aggressive to this deck, and I would rather play something that is better suited for the current meta, which in my mind is a faster combo deck that gets to capitalize on the fact that people are playing a slower combo deck primarily, and also that tempo decks are evolving to play slower cards.

Well... I guess if it comes down to if anyone having a discussion with you is insulting you, and you already know better than I because of your experience and grand intelligence, then sir... I must concede to your wisdom.

Good luck with another deck.

I still believe UR painter to be a good meta call right now, and will continue to discuss here with others until I feel like its isn't a good deck option.

[merfolkotpt]

Well... I guess if it comes down to if anyone having a discussion with you is insulting you, and you already know better than I because of your experience and grand intelligence, then sir... I must concede to your wisdom.

Good luck with another deck.

I still believe UR painter to be a good meta call right now, and will continue to discuss here with others until I feel like its isn't a good deck option.

Look dude, I am sorry I was a little salty in my post back to you, but I do feel like I have a fair amount of experience and didn't think your response to why I wasn't excited about the deck was fair. I explained my position though, do you disagree about the tempo decks thing? Honestly a lot of those games for me have been won because wurmcoil gives time and life while being hard to deal with, a shift back to swords and TNN in those decks make this plan less good, but doesn't make out main plan any better. If i have to side out the wurmcoil engines I feel like the MU becomes worse in general, back to pre-wurmcoil days which was below 50% in my testing.

I also have tested extensively against sneak and show, and while unprepared opponents can be easy to beat, the number of unprepared sneak and show players is going down. If they know how to play against you it isn't an easy matchup especially since we are effectively playing a game where they just have to win 1 game to our 2.

I am taking a moratorium on snark, I want to talk about why you think this analysis is wrong. If you don't want to do that its fine, but don't begrudge me one slightly salty response.

[Ish]

Look dude, I am sorry I was a little salty in my post back to you, but I do feel like I have a fair amount of experience and didn't think your response to why I wasn't excited about the deck was fair. I explained my position though, do you disagree about the tempo decks thing? Honestly a lot of those games for me have been won because wurmcoil gives time and life while being hard to deal with, a shift back to swords and TNN in those decks make this plan less good, but doesn't make out main plan any better. If i have to side out the wurmcoil engines I feel like the MU becomes worse in general, back to pre-wurmcoil days which was below 50% in my testing.

I also have tested extensively against sneak and show, and while unprepared opponents can be easy to beat, the number of unprepared sneak and show players is going down. If they know how to play against you it isn't an easy matchup especially since we are effectively playing a game where they just have to win 1 game to our 2.

I am taking a moratorium on snark, I want to talk about why you think this analysis is wrong. If you don't want to do that its fine, but don't begrudge me one slightly salty response.


Awesome! Now we're havin a discussion!

Wurmcoil and tempo: I can definetely see what you are saying here. Decks such as RUG/BUG can't answer a resovled/weldered in Wurmcoil Engine. I shall retest this scenario... thanks!



Sneak and Show:

I can't argue against your SnT testing experience, but can only reference and share mine. So here's my plan/experience notes.

My thoughts: I am still convinced Games 2 and 3 are so much in our favor. I also played SnT for about 2 years through many variants so I know the deck inside and out. Game 1 IS in their favor.

Against a slower SnT draw we can win via our :( 3 card combo game 1. Don't count on it though!

My Gameplan Game 2-3.
Board: 3 Bridge, 3 Flusterstorm, 2 GY Hate (Tormod's Crypt is mine)
Out: WCE, Maybe 1-2 Combo Pieces, Some excell such as LED/Mox Opal, 1-2 Tops (games are gonna be fast, or you've locked em)

Now I am looking for a hand with ALOT of counters, and if I'm lucky a bridge and/or intuition. I will fight their combo with counters to rip there hand apart. Basically sit and sculpt your hand.
In the deck game 2 for me: 4 FoW, 3 Reb, 3 Flusterstorm. That really slows them down.

If they resolve an SnT after a big counter war hopefully you have your bridge in hand. If you have an intuition, just play it in response and find your bridges before SnT resolves. Put it into play.

Now, the best way to ensure they are completely locked outta the game. Using transmute/intuition get more bridges in play/hand/graveyard. Find a welder and it's absolutely game over. You can just swap in bridges after bounce, or have 2-3 in play if they are on wipe away (not echoing truth). Now you just build your board to combo off.

[Koby]

vs Matches that were attacking with Eldrazi (and hence we need Ensnaring Bridge, actually any matchups where I bring in Bridge - adjusted for fair / unfair strategies. Spellskite for fair matchups, Flusterstorm for unfair.) I would board like this:
-3 Grim Monolith
-2 Wurmcoil Engine
-1 Grindstone
-1 ??? (I honestly can't remember, it may have been Intuition)
+3 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 REB
+1 Venser (form my LA list)

[Ish]

vs Matches that were attacking with Eldrazi (and hence we need Ensnaring Bridge, actually any matchups where I bring in Bridge - adjusted for fair / unfair strategies. Spellskite for fair matchups, Flusterstorm for unfair.) I would board like this:
-3 Grim Monolith
-2 Wurmcoil Engine
-1 Grindstone
-1 ??? (I honestly can't remember, it may have been Intuition)
+3 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 REB
+1 Venser (form my LA list)

Sounds pretty solid.

I have a 3rd flusterstorm over the venser in the SB (personal preference), and I bring in the crypts for the win (arguable that this matters, since we're not trying to combo so fast). I like keeping all my intutions as a response to SnT with Bridge if counters fail though.

[merfolkotpt]

Awesome! Now we're havin a discussion!

Wurmcoil and tempo: I can definetely see what you are saying here. Decks such as RUG/BUG can't answer a resovled/weldered in Wurmcoil Engine. I shall retest this scenario... thanks!



Sneak and Show:

I can't argue against your SnT testing experience, but can only reference and share mine. So here's my plan/experience notes.

My thoughts: I am still convinced Games 2 and 3 are so much in our favor. I also played SnT for about 2 years through many variants so I know the deck inside and out. Game 1 IS in their favor.

Against a slower SnT draw we can win via our :( 3 card combo game 1. Don't count on it though!

My Gameplan Game 2-3.
Board: 3 Bridge, 3 Flusterstorm, 2 GY Hate (Tormod's Crypt is mine)
Out: WCE, Maybe 1-2 Combo Pieces, Some excell such as LED/Mox Opal, 1-2 Tops (games are gonna be fast, or you've locked em)

Now I am looking for a hand with ALOT of counters, and if I'm lucky a bridge and/or intuition. I will fight their combo with counters to rip there hand apart. Basically sit and sculpt your hand.
In the deck game 2 for me: 4 FoW, 3 Reb, 3 Flusterstorm. That really slows them down.

If they resolve an SnT after a big counter war hopefully you have your bridge in hand. If you have an intuition, just play it in response and find your bridges before SnT resolves. Put it into play.

Now, the best way to ensure they are completely locked outta the game. Using transmute/intuition get more bridges in play/hand/graveyard. Find a welder and it's absolutely game over. You can just swap in bridges after bounce, or have 2-3 in play if they are on wipe away (not echoing truth). Now you just build your board to combo off.

Our sideboarding plans are almost identical, one thing to be aware of is Wipe Away as it is becoming more common and it beats up on our sideboarding plan, and is therefore a reason to get 2 bridges in play specifically. Echoing truth is the other common bounce spell but that one is way easier to answer. Reb loses a little value because they can have them as well, so make sure that you name black (or white or green) with your painter unless you are winning that turn if you can blow up a permanent.

My experience is still not a net positive against lists with access to wipe away, but I wasn't playing as many copies of ensnaring bridge when I was doing that testing (2 in the board instead of 3, with the third spot being taken up by a venser). Have you considered moving one bridge from the board to the main? I haven't done it before but three games with a trump card seem better than 2.

I still am not sure about tempo, especially the new brand with StP, since it can actually answer our Wurmcoil along with TNN. I have been just bringing in the flusterstorms, and spellskites, but I still haven't been able to get there as consistently as I like. I want everyone to fall back in love with abrupt decay and deathrite shaman, those were much easier to beat. At one point (before the wrumcoils) I was splashing black for Baleful Strix nonsense with welder and to be able to hold off all their monsters to buy time, but still not really a satisfactory answer to TNN.

EDIT:
More revisions.

It might actually be correct to bring in Bridge in this match up if they have TNN. It stalls enough, but it makes me for sure want the led back in the list. I also would maybe consider platinum angel/empirion though the extra 1-2 mana over Wurmcoil might be tough.

[Ish]

I have yet to test against a TNN deck. But I would bring in bridges at my current thinking. I feel like right now we great them just like RUG/BUG/Jund. Esperblade is a whole nother' animal. I can't see how we win that match... But I was able to dodge it all this last weekend.

Bridges in main. I spent some time playing iPainter (mono R) with a bridge in the main. It did what it needed many times. However what UR offers is a faster combo clock in favor of board lock, so at the moment I wouldn't. However if the format becomes 50% sneak and show and 50% TNN tempo, then yes. But then I'd probably play Tezzeretor instead!

However... If you were to test bridge MB I wouldn't call it crazy. And would be interested in how it worked out.


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[merfolkotpt]

Alright so here is what I am thinking for my new sideboard, which is pretty close to my current SB:

3x Blood Moon
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Fluster Storm
3x Spellskite
1x Wurmcoil Engine - there were a couple times at the GP that drawing a wurmcoil was my out and I wanted the 3rd post board. This could also be one of the platinum guys, and might be worth testing that way.

My current maindeck is:
Business (15)
4x Painter
4x Grindstone
4x Welder
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Protection (7)
4x Force of Will
3x Red Elemental Blast

Tutors and Draw (12)
4x Brainstorm
2x SDT
3x Transmute Artifact
3x Intuition - I have been having some discussion with folks about altering numbers here to a 4-2 split instead of 3-3 or trying Izzet Charm in one of these slots. Let me know what you think of the charm Koby/Ish I know you guys have been running this.

Mana (26)
4x Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
3x Island
1x Mountain
2x Volcanic Island
3x Seat of the Synod
3x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors
1x Academy Ruins
3x Grim Monolith (I could see cutting one of these for another actual land or shaving down to 25 total mana sources and adding in the izzet charm or 7th tutor)
2x Mox Opal
1x LED

This is where I want to be if we are more all in on the ensnaring bridge plan. Against fair decks with lots of removal I want access to more wurmcoils, or maybe some other big artifact monster, I know Koby was thinking about sundering titan, but I want something that is absolutely game winning. If i had access to Izzet Charm i might consider sphinx of the steel wind as another monster that gains life and is immune to some common removal (ancient grudge) and is good against most of the creatures in the format, as well as flying over true name. The other option along those lines is Inkwell leviathan, but at that point we are starting to get a bit ridiculous wrt CC.

I also am interested in hearing if anyone has had luck with greaves instead of skite. My sense is that skite is probably better, but giving welder haste is somewhat interesting to me.

[Ish]

Alright so here is what I am thinking for my new sideboard, which is pretty close to my current SB:

3x Blood Moon
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Fluster Storm
3x Spellskite
1x Wurmcoil Engine - there were a couple times at the GP that drawing a wurmcoil was my out and I wanted the 3rd post board. This could also be one of the platinum guys, and might be worth testing that way.

My current maindeck is:
Business (15)
4x Painter
4x Grindstone
4x Welder
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Protection (7)
4x Force of Will
3x Red Elemental Blast

Tutors and Draw (12)
4x Brainstorm
2x SDT
3x Transmute Artifact
3x Intuition - I have been having some discussion with folks about altering numbers here to a 4-2 split instead of 3-3 or trying Izzet Charm in one of these slots. Let me know what you think of the charm Koby/Ish I know you guys have been running this.

Mana (26)
4x Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
3x Island
1x Mountain
2x Volcanic Island
3x Seat of the Synod
3x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors
1x Academy Ruins
3x Grim Monolith (I could see cutting one of these for another actual land or shaving down to 25 total mana sources and adding in the izzet charm or 7th tutor)
2x Mox Opal
1x LED

This is where I want to be if we are more all in on the ensnaring bridge plan. Against fair decks with lots of removal I want access to more wurmcoils, or maybe some other big artifact monster, I know Koby was thinking about sundering titan, but I want something that is absolutely game winning. If i had access to Izzet Charm i might consider sphinx of the steel wind as another monster that gains life and is immune to some common removal (ancient grudge) and is good against most of the creatures in the format, as well as flying over true name. The other option along those lines is Inkwell leviathan, but at that point we are starting to get a bit ridiculous wrt CC.

I also am interested in hearing if anyone has had luck with greaves instead of skite. My sense is that skite is probably better, but giving welder haste is somewhat interesting to me.

You are just a few cards off my 75. I'll post a list and discuss further when I get a chance.


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[Ish]

Bump

Per my last response... finally I'll talk my list in comparison to Merfolkotpt

Current list I'm playing
0x Blood Moon (-3)
4x Ensnaring Bridge (+1)
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Fluster Storm
3x Spellskite
0x Wurmcoil Engine (-1)
1x Pithing Needle (+1)
1x Thorn of Amythist (+1)
1x Ratchet Bomb (+1)

My current maindeck is:
Business (15)
4x Painter
4x Grindstone
4x Welder
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Protection (7)
4x Force of Will
3x Red Elemental Blast

Tutors and Draw (12)
4x Brainstorm
2x SDT
4x Transmute Artifact (+1)
3x Intuition
1x Izzet Charm (+1)

Lands / Mana (24)
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Blue Fetch
3x Island
1x Mountain
2x Volcanic Island
2x Seat of the Synod
2x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors
1x Academy Ruins
2x Great Furnace

2x Grim Monolith
1x Mox Opal (-1)
1x LED


The MD is pretty similiar so there is really not a lot to discuss about the differences. Ive been playing with a few less mana producers for more business spells, but thats really it.

My thoughts

Academy Ruin: Meh... hasn't done anything great for me yet. Might just be better on paper (we already have 4 welder). Prob cutting for the third ancient tomb (as I had originally)

Transmute/Intuition: I am had set on 4/3 split. Transmute artifact can also be played as a sorcery speed entomb for 2 blue! With welder in play thats just NUTS! Remember you dont HAVE to pay the difference.

Izzet Charm: Has been nuts at times. Welder turn 1 with WCE in hand... izzet turn 2... instant speed WCE to block your... WHA?!?!?! oh snap! It has countered a thing here and there, killed a problem creatures (DRS or somthin) but just Meh in those modes.

Side Board:
No Bloodmoons: WHAT?!?!?! Seems crazy I know. Maybe it is. But in playing them for a while they were only good turn 2 at the latest. Past that there were already threats or I was just fo far behind. For the decks I bring it in against the Bridges are just as good or better. And against Sneak Attack bridge is the NUTS!

Ratchet Bomb: Awesome!! I bring it in against aggro, dredge or the real problem: Chalice of the void. Yes we can get around CotV with transmute, but I like the option of removing it for cantrips and blast as well.

Pithing Needle: Filler Spot. No real comment here

[TkDodo]

I played a pretty similar list at GP Vienna side events:
26 ppl on Saturday, 4-1, 2nd due to good breakers,
65 ppl on Sunday, 5-2, 9th - screwed up in R5 and therefore missed top8

I completely agree on the 4/3 split on TA and Intuition. Without that many tutors we loose so much speed, and I believe that G1 is mostly about that.
I do like your Pithing Needle in the board - was it useful for you? It sound good against Jitte and Sneak Attack at least...
I might also try your Ratchet Bomb, although it sounds a bit slow as you most likely spend a turn TAing for it if you want to blow it for more than 0.
Please cut a Great Furnace in your list for a Seat of the Synod, just please ;)

Blood Moon was actually the most boarded in card that weekend and it won me lots of games on its own. I disagree that it's only good on T2. If you can catch your opponent off guard when he's tapped out, it still does all the work. We don't have a problem racing a Goyf or whatever if our opponents can't play spells anymore. It also turns off annoying utility lands, which can be an issue because we don't play Wasteland.

I also won zero games due to Wurmcoil, so I'm very happy with only 1 maindeck.

[Koby]

I also won zero games due to Wurmcoil, so I'm very happy with only 1 maindeck.

I agree and can corroborate this. It's the weakest card in the deck, and does not help the synergies for the combo. It's an orthogonal Plan B, and mighty weak at that.

[kingtk3]

Same opinion: wurmcoil is not a good plan B because it suffers from the same hate of painter/welder. Also, with true-name Nemesis around it also got weaker.

The deck needs another b-plan, if any: would jace be an option here?

[TkDodo]

Same opinion: wurmcoil is not a good plan B because it suffers from the same hate of painter/welder. Also, with true-name Nemesis around it also got weaker.

The deck needs another b-plan, if any: would jace be an option here?

A plan B is definitely necessary. Wurmcoil is still good against decks that can't handle it (RUG Delver, BUG, Jund). It's also a surprise angle of attack most people just do not see coming. Only one of these decks plays TNN, so we loose some equite against BUG. Against the others, WCE is still our best option at stabilizing the board. It's just so weak against StoP. The fact that it can be tutored up with TA and Grim Monolith makes it easily accessible.

I'm all ears for another alternative wincon. I don't think Jace is an option though. We don't remove creatures (because we usually don't care), so he would die a lot in combat. We also rarely want to block. He costs UU which can be tough to get (although TA costs UU as well). You can't tutor him up and I don't think you want to clutter the maindeck with 3+ copies.

Batterskull could be an option. It costs one less than WCE (0 to pay if you TA your GM) and is more resilient to StoP while also stabilizing the board pretty well. It does not combo so well with Welder, but if I have Welder out I go for the combo mostly anyway.

Apart from that, maybe Mindslaver? Very mana intensive though and does nothing the turn you tutor it up.

I hope they will print something soon :/

On another note, how do you guys plan on beating UWR Delver? With Owen wining the last Legacy GP, I think it might become pretty popular, and it sounds like a nightmare: Bolt, StoP, Mana Denial, Counters, Jitte and TNN !

[Ish]

On another note, how do you guys plan on beating UWR Delver? With Owen wining the last Legacy GP, I think it might become pretty popular, and it sounds like a nightmare: Bolt, StoP, Mana Denial, Counters, Jitte and TNN !

Play a different deck :(

But seriously. The rise of tempo decks, which at inherently good against combo is becoming a problem. UWR delver is nearly unwinnable.

Im a little sad over this right now... Not sure what the real answer is.




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[Imperial]

Play a different deck :(

But seriously. The rise of tempo decks, which at inherently good against combo is becoming a problem. UWR delver is nearly unwinnable.

Im a little sad over this right now... Not sure what the real answer is.




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This is probably a little too cute, but how about a SB with the ability to transform into UR Delver?

[Ish]

this is probably a little too cute, but how about a SB with the ability to transform into UR Delver?

Oh lol! That's awesome, they would never see it coming!


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[kingtk3]

mmm, maybe young pyromancer?

[Koby]

Im a little sad over this right now... Not sure what the real answer is.


Sundering Titan may swing it in our favor, but very unlikely we can afford to Transmute into it.

[Imperial]

Oh lol! That's awesome, they would never see it coming!


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Maybe something like this?

SB:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Tormod's Crypt

I'm more of an IP player, so please feel free to berate me on this idea.

[merfolkotpt]

The sideboarding plan you suggested puts us at only 23 Sorceries/instants if we dont' side out any Transmutes. My opinion is that this is too few to have a solid delver plan with only 4 brainstorm and two tops. Similarly it dampens the impact of YP.

It seems to me that a solid plan if you are worried about getting attacked by TNN and other creatures from tempo is to swap some of the SB'd ensnaring bridges to the main deck. If people are playing more creature removal in UWR doesn't it stand to reason that we should just play other hard to remove permanents, over the course of a long game it doesn't seem as difficult to assemble a winning hand/top of deck, if our opponents have no outs in g1 to bridge just sitting in play. The rise of TNN and fall of BG strategies seems way better to me. Maybe swap 1x wurmcoil to the board and 1-2 copies of something else for 2-3 bridge main. I still think this requires us to possibly go up to 3 top and maybe add the LED back in, but that doesn't seem to bad.

I also would think about playing 1-2 spellskite main, especially if other combo decks are declining, we could play some over force of will potentially.

[Ish]

MB Bridge: this is quite common in mono red and very effective. Could easily replace wurmcoil engine as the creature hate. Auto lose to burn now though :). (Is that even worth considering). Also since the tempo push has even further increased the Sneaky Showy decks, could be really good.

MB Spellskite: I don't like this one. I like a 1 of in mono red with IR, but not here so much. The could is a beast SB though. But maybe I'm wrong.

I think there is some serious tuning needed to be made if we are going to survive.


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[merfolkotpt]

I still think Wumcoil is quite good (in the relevant MUs) remember that people don't always insta-audible to the "best" version of whatever deck they should be playing Legacy players like to play the same decks, so tempo decks are going to continue to exist without swords. In the meantime, here is the list I would probably run for this deck with TNN in mind:

Combo (13)
4x Grindstone
4x Painter's Servant
4x Goblin Welder
1x Tormod's Crypt

Tutors/Card Draw (12)
3x Intuition
3x Transmute artifact
4x Brainstorm
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Protection (7)
4x Force of Will
3x Red Elemental Blast

Testing slots (3)
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Wurmcoil Engine

Mana (25)
2x Grim Monolith
2x Mox Opal
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
4xScalding Tarn
2xPolluted Delta
3x Island
3x Seat of the Synod
1x Mountain
1x Great Furnace
2x Volcanic Island
3x Ancient Tomb
1x Academy Ruins

I cut the City of Traitors because i haven't been liking it as much, but if would rather cut Academy Ruins I could see that. I like it a lot, other people are unimpressed and I can see that it might be a bit slow. I also cut 1x Wurmcoil and as a result cut 1 Grim Monolith since it isn't as critical for this build with fewer wurmcoils, and added back in 1x LED, since that increases the ability to just slam a win onto the table. If you don't like LED you can easily run the 3rd Monolith in that spot, I absolutely don't like going below 25 mana sources.

Random thoughts:
Another thing to consider out of the board instead of/in addition to Spellskite might be Defense Grid, since a lot of these tempo decks don't run a ton of lands, and their defense against our combo is easy access to swords and counters.

[now]

How about 4 Gitaxian Probe? Cut a *gasp* mana source (since we’re thinning the deck), Wurmcoil Engine, and Ensnaring Bridge? With Gitaxian Probe we know what to play around and we can get to the combo just a tiny bit faster.

[merfolkotpt]

How about 4 Gitaxian Probe? Cut a *gasp* mana source (since we’re thinning the deck), Wurmcoil Engine, and Ensnaring Bridge? With Gitaxian Probe we know what to play around and we can get to the combo just a tiny bit faster.

We are trying to figure out how to beat decks running TNN, counters, and swords to plowshares as our main concern at the moment, I don't know that probe necessarily helps with that. In addition, in my experience finding the combo hasn't been the main problem with winning with the deck. Maybe I am wrong, but probe doesn't seem to be the solution.

[Ish]

Spot on. Probe might assist in narrow instances, but not as an overall solution.


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[merfolkotpt]

So I am contemplating playing this weekend in the Columbus open with Painter. This would be the list I am going to try:

Combo (13)
4x Grindstone
4x Painter's Servant
4x Goblin Welder
1x Tormod's Crypt

Tutors/Card Draw (12)
3x Intuition
3x Transmute artifact
4x Brainstorm
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Protection (7)
4x Force of Will
3x Red Elemental Blast

Testing slots (3)
2x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Wurmcoil Engine

Mana (25)
2x Grim Monolith
2x Mox Opal
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
4xScalding Tarn
2xPolluted Delta
3x Island
3x Seat of the Synod
1x Mountain
1x Great Furnace
2x Volcanic Island
3x Ancient Tomb
1x Academy Ruins

I think my sideboard is going to look like this:
3x Spellskite
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Flusterstorm
3x Bloodmoon
1x REB
2x Sphere of Resistance
1x Ensnaring Bridge

I want to see if we Painter can hang in the current meta, and I think sphere of resistance + main deck ensnaring bridge is the answer. Let me know if your testing has led you anywhere different.

[Ish]

I went back to mono red iPainter. Meta shift to greedy tempo decks are great for mono red.

I struggled with UR painter against blue temp decks. So right now, I don't think its a great choice.


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[youch]

Hi,

It seems that here is the only active thread on UR Painter. I plan on playing this deck in GP Paris next week and I’ve been working on it for about a month now. I’m still changing a few things here and there but I like the way the deck plays, especially against fair decks, and it’s a bit different from the usual lists. Any suggestions appreciated, and thanks for reading.

youch






MAINDECK

Lands (21, yes I like hitting my land drops)
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
2 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Island
3 Seat of the Synod
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn

Creatures (10)
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Artifacts (14)
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
4 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Instants (11)
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Brainstorm
2 Pyroblast
3 Intuition
3 Lightning Bolt

Sorceries (3)
3 Transmute Artifact

SIDEBOARD

1 Lightning Bolt
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Swan Song
3 Flusterstorm
2 Electrickery
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere






What’s the deal ?

One of the goals of this version is, while keeping a good access to the fast combo (welder, transmute, intuition), to be able to fight fair decks, even in the long run, by being more solid and less all in. Main changes :

- 0* Force of Will in the 75: I know this seems strange but I really feel losing a card puts you behind in every stage of the game unless you protect your win. If the game lasts a bit longer, Opponents Forces/Dazes/Spell pierces become less relevant. There are more solutions to delver, TNN can be countered and Tarmo is a pain as usual but you have more time to setup your win.

- Lightning bolt : That card is very good in the format. Delver, Stoneforge, Elves, D&T, Meddling Mage, Clique … For 1 mana, you can deal with many of the cards that impose a clock on you. Post Board, having 4 bolts and 5 Reb effects is really a confort against Delver strategies.

These changes make the game go longer, hence I prefer Tops to Brainstorms.

- 0* Tormod’s Crypt in the main : Ok, that one is a bit risky but to be honest, it’s a really bad card in many matchups. Moreover, S&T has almost never a MD answer to Ensnaring Bridge so I feel it is enough (then you can win with tons of 3/3 wurmcoil tokens from welder). It requires you to land a welder at some point but I think it’s worth the risk. It sucks though vs. Omnitell type decks or other random Emrakul decks. On the positive side, Ensnaring Bridge is a much better magic card can also be auto win vs. decks like RUG delver (assuming you have enough life not to die to bolts but still saves a tremendous amount of time)

- Lodestone Golem : as you have seen, this list is very soft to fast combo decks. However, landing a fast golem from transmute, welder or just hardcast is really really good. One slot for some chance against these decks is a good deal. Morover, it’s a generally good magic card.


Post SB :

Vs. Combo, I privilege efficient 1 mana countermagic. I feel that by just doing land drops, keeping countermagic in hand and slowly (or quickly) assembling the combo works pretty well. The 6 new 1mana counterspells are really handy here. Rebs are also good.

Electrickery is mainly for elves which I think will be in high numbers in Paris and finally, some one ofs artifacts which are pretty self explanatory.

[merfolkotpt]

I have a couple thoughts about this list, though I don't think you are totally off base with some of these thoughts.

First, I am not that impressed with Lightning Bolt, we are never going to win through damage without the help of Wurmcoil, and even then rarely, so if you absolutely must have a removal spell I would advocate for flame slash. That being said, I think those are wasted slots 90% of the time. Were I you I would play more ensnaring bridge to slow down the clock of the format, or something else that can at least be welded. Lightning Bolt is a good card in the format, but it is at its worst in a deck that never goes to the dome with it. I would also just consider splashing a color (black is popular for strix, and I have seen decent versions with white as well) if you want to go further down the control route.

As for cutting Brainstorms for Top and talking about wanting more lands. I think these things are related. Top is super mana hungry as is the deck. While both are good in my experience Brainstorm is one of the last cards i would cut numbers on. Especially when i am worried about how often i hit lands.

Lastly, If you want a one of "trump card" in the matchup against combo can I suggest something besides Lodestone? I would say either sphere of resistance or Thorn. They are more likely to have removal for something that is both an artifact and a creature. Lodestone doesn't come out quickly enough to be relevant off of transmute, and Thorn is more likely to be effective agaisnt them, as a artifact fueled combo turn is not unheard of.

For your sideboard, I have never had a hard time with elves but my deck is faster as you admitted, why not just play pyroclasm to kill their deathrite shamans, and Nettle Sentinels too? Yes it kills your Welder, but wiping their board seems potentially more relevant. I also am not a fan of Pithing Needle, general solutions seem less than ideal in a deck like this. We are the broken deck generally, we want our opponents to react to us, I generally side with doing more to trump their trumps as opposed to worrying about them beating us. They have to disrupt us (in most cases) to win.

That all aside, I like the move to a slower version. I believe a couple pages there are some versions with Counterbalance and even some as I said, splashing black for some combination of strix, bob and tezzeret and those have been effective in the right meta.

Good luck in Paris! Hope you do well.

[Megadeus]

Anyone currently playing this deck? Been thinking of attempting to borrow stuff to play it at my local

[Nitrospira]

Anyone currently playing this deck? Been thinking of attempting to borrow stuff to play it at my local

Most Painter players are on iPainter or R/w iPainter. Especially with the printing of Spirit of the Labyrinth, Brainstorm is weaker than jamming Moons right now

[kusumoto]

Most Painter players are on iPainter or R/w iPainter. Especially with the printing of Spirit of the Labyrinth, Brainstorm is weaker than jamming Moons right now

The fast builds of UR painter have a better matchup against decks that would play Spirit of the Labyrinth than Imperial Painter decks do.

I think that the problem with current UR lists is that people are trying to make Grim Monolith happen. I think people should try accepting UR painter for what it is and just go with it instead of weakening it to shore up matchups that you will probably lose anyway.

I got 6th in a 33 person tournament last weekend with this list,


4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Grindstone
2 Transmute Artifact
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal

4 Volcanic Island
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island

-

3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
4 Divert
4 Sower of Temptation
1 Pithing Needle


It's fast and Divert catches people with their pants down. I think if you aren't playing Imperial Painter that should be your plan. UR painter is a pretty bad control deck when you build it like that. It's always worked best for me to play it like this.

[Mortox]

Most Painter players are on iPainter or R/w iPainter. Especially with the printing of Spirit of the Labyrinth, Brainstorm is weaker than jamming Moons right now

Agreed, I think jamming Moons has never been so strong with so many people on ridiculously greedy mana and loam/lands/depth decks becoming more popular over the last couple months. Look at some of the top BUG/RUG lists running zero basics, if you T0-T1 a moon you'll often get an auto-concede.

[Ish]

Agreed, I think jamming Moons has never been so strong with so many people on ridiculously greedy mana and loam/lands/depth decks becoming more popular over the last couple months. Look at some of the top BUG/RUG lists running zero basics, if you T0-T1 a moon you'll often get an auto-concede.

This is true... but Ur can also play Moons in the sideboard.

The only similarity between these decks is the combo pieces. The way they play, good and bad matchups are very different. Ur also really wants to exploit Welder, where as R/Rw uses it as a toolbox card.

The advantages of Ur are pure speed, and protection. It also has a much better combo matchup. Being able to slam an early WCE also really helps the fair deck matchups.

Where it is weak is the UWR Delver/Nemesis matchup, Rug Delver and other tempo decks. R/Rw has a better matchup here.

However, from my last several tourneyments the meta hasn't been so defined (at least from my local scene), so I have trouble stating that one is truly better than the other.

[merfolkotpt]

I just read Drew Levin's article this week about build an ensnaring bridge deck, and as I read I kept coming back to the idea that UR painter is already a lot of this.

I think I am going to work on a major reworking of the deck to include 3x Ensnaring bridge main, and maybe change around the tutor package a bit. I also am considering a change to the cantrip/card draw suite. This might seems crazy, but I think a large change might be in order for painter to be good again.

[jandax]

Mono Red and even the white splash have been doing Bridges MD for a while now. Seems counter intuitive for a deck wanting to cantrip, it is good

[Ish]

In this meta I think red or red/white painter are much stronger suited. The blue does not offer any legitimate upgrades of advantages over imperial painter. And the benefits of blood moon far out weigh any non-moon strategy right now (for this archetype)


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[merfolkotpt]

Way to go arthur reynolds (are you on the boards here) with a top 8 with UR Painter. It looks like a version focused on the much older versions of the deck (lots of intuition, almost no TA or support for TA). He also ran a lot more COunters than are usually found in the UR version 12 in total and 7 total artifact lands. Overall the deck looks very good.

If arthur is around congrats and thanks for showing us UR painter is still alive and kicking. If you are around any thoughts on your list?

List for reference
2nd place at SCG Knoxville
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67026

2 Flusterstorm
3 Mox Opal
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Painter's Servant
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Brainstorm
4 Goblin Welder
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Grindstone
4 Intuition
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
1 Transmute Artifact
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1 Swan Song
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Misdirection
2 Tormod's Crypt

[Dice_Box]

I really like the list. Pushing to a faster combo and less of a control lock deck. I think this has legs and I would like to work on it.

[merfolkotpt]

I already built this new version, but I am starting to think that with just 1 Transmute artifact and no grim monolith or other support-ish cards for it, there might be a better option? If fabricate were an instant I would be all over that, as it stands, I don't know if there is a better option (gamble?), but in this build I don't like TA as much.

The other things that stand out as odd to me looking at the list are so few basics and so many artifact lands. I was usually running 4 and 4 and wasn't hurting for welding targets, so i could see bringing the numbers a little closer to the old lists on that. I would also like to see 1 more top since that card is absolutely the nuts in this deck, and if i could i would like to squeeze in 1 academy ruins as a 5th pseudo welder. I know it is a little slower, but that effect can be very strong.

Overall more counters and less transmute artifacts/grim monoliths seems very good to me right now.

[kusumoto]

I already built this new version, but I am starting to think that with just 1 Transmute artifact and no grim monolith or other support-ish cards for it, there might be a better option? If fabricate were an instant I would be all over that, as it stands, I don't know if there is a better option (gamble?), but in this build I don't like TA as much.

The other things that stand out as odd to me looking at the list are so few basics and so many artifact lands. I was usually running 4 and 4 and wasn't hurting for welding targets, so i could see bringing the numbers a little closer to the old lists on that. I would also like to see 1 more top since that card is absolutely the nuts in this deck, and if i could i would like to squeeze in 1 academy ruins as a 5th pseudo welder. I know it is a little slower, but that effect can be very strong.

Overall more counters and less transmute artifacts/grim monoliths seems very good to me right now.

One of the big reasons for more artifact lands is the higher Mox Opal count.

[merfolkotpt]

I mean that makes sense, but I think in earlier versions of the deck (look back in the thread) there are many versions, by me and other people, with 3 opal that still don't run 7 artifact lands. I think my earliest versions of this deck just had fewer artifacts in general, but I could be wrong.

I still think the number doesn't need to be quite that high and I personally would appreciate either an additional Island or fetchland in the main.

I will probably make up for it by running an additional SDT so the artifact numbers will still be quite high.

[Parcher]

A new experiment using Khans:

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant

2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Brainstorm
4 Artificer's Intuition
3 Spell Pierce

1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
2 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Locket Of Yesterdays
2 Altar of the Brood
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Conjurer's Bauble


1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Great Furnace
3 Volcanic Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod

[merfolkotpt]

Any explanation on this experiment? Artificer's Intuition is the plan i guess: Why do we play the other weird cards? Why not play traditional good 0-1 drops like engineered explosives?

Seems sort of interesting, but why are the cards you added better than any other cards I could play?

In other news:
I have a version of the deck currently built with Dack Fayden, it is fine, but I don't think we have hit on version that is better (in this meta) than Imperial Painter. I would love for someone to prove me wrong...

[merfolkotpt]

Has anyone considered some number of Dig through time in painter?

Obviously we rely on our graveyard but the impulse for 7 seems real promising especially at instant speed. I was thinking about something closer to the list that did well at the Open in knoxville, but with Dig Through Time as the Transmute artifact replacement.

Thoughts?

[dte]

Any explanation on this experiment? Artificer's Intuition is the plan i guess: Why do we play the other weird cards?


What do you mean why to play the weird cards? If artificer's intuition is the plan, it is because besides tutoring grindstone it can tutor the whole mill infinite combo with SDT/locket/altar.

in SB, EE, meekstone and needle seem sweet.

But it seems to me that you add a lot of clunky cards for this easily hatable (gravehate, needle, permanents) combo.

[merfolkotpt]

What do you mean why to play the weird cards? If artificer's intuition is the plan, it is because besides tutoring grindstone it can tutor the whole mill infinite combo with SDT/locket/altar.


I mean the weird cards in that combo (yes they can all be tutored for but it is still a 4 card combo that you need 3.5 pieces of which in play). Also conjurer's bauble?

I want to know why this combo helps anything...

It seems to me that the only bonus we get is not being susceptible to creature hate that doesn't also hit artifacts or enchantments. That is not the actual card that is tough for this deck to deal with (decay), but only the one which is mildly annoying bolt, and the one that needs to be countered or dealt with regularly: swords.

We trade that off for being more susceptible to graveyard hate, and having a much harder to assemble combo. Neat. :|

[pinkfrosting]

U/R painter going into top 8 at SCG Minneapolis now. We should be able to see it play in the next hour or so, they're on an air break at the moment.

His list is similar to the Arthur Reynolds list that made top-8 in May. He's also running a Wurmcoil Engine in the sideboard, kind of strange but easy to throw in the yard with intuition. He managed to get it going in a game against dredge a moment ago.

[deadlock]

Is there still development on this deck?

Most Painter players are on iPainter or R/w iPainter. Especially with the printing of Spirit of the Labyrinth, Brainstorm is weaker than jamming Moons right now

I have to disagree, said hate cards have to be drawn in consistent fashion. Dont lose faith in BS! :D
Joke aside, I want to point out that the deck has some very strong advantages over other combo decks, while it seems like it is very weak due to all the Lightningbolts flying around and whatnot. The deck is so strong because of blue and because it can reassemble very fast compared to other decks, while having next to 0 dead cards. (This is not supposed to convince you, but I am not in to discuss why, but how to play ur painter ;)
So lets adapt to the new meta, the strongest list was the 4 Mental Misstep list, so I use this for reference. The last tournament lists reflect this, as they are very close the said list, obviously without the MM's.
So what does change except the protection suit? The fact that the Treasure Cruise decks have huge draw engine due to said card. So we cannot *just* assemble the combo and pray, but build the deck to be able to keep up the pressure (which is the key strength of ur painter as mentioned).
The most powerful tool to keep up with these decks is DTT as already proposed before. It gives both card advantage and selection. While UU is a concern, it is much more powerful than TC, due to how deep it digs. It also plays very well with transformational sideboard plans, which have to be discussed separately.
It should be obvious that it is not a real opposition to Welder, as Welder basically just needs a Painter in the yard in most cases. Please state if you have other concerns, but otherwise I want to go on.
Some other observations regarding the different meta:
- Lesser Wastelands means that we have to run less land.
- A healthy amount of Redblasts / Pyroblasts is very strong right now.
- SDT while very synergistic is also pretty slow and clunky in multiples, I currently run 2 for this reason.
- Ponder while not very synergistic is incredibly strong card and makes DTT also faster to cast.
- Dont go below 3 Moxen, its one of the selling points of this deck. I like to keep the 16 artifacts + 7 artifact lands for this reason.

Some questions:
- What do you think about the old transformational sideboard with 4 Show and Tell + 3 Emrakul? I think it is stronger than Wurmcoil in a list which isnt specifically tuned to support it (Transmute + Grim), which tend to be slower and clunkier overall imo.
- I dont know if it is still worth to keep LED, its very explosive but also all-in. I think it is not well positioned, but I could be wrong. Currently I run a single Lotus Petal in its spot, which can also be useful outside the combo.

[Rivfader]

Is there still development on this deck?
I have to disagree, said hate cards have to be drawn in consistent fashion. Dont lose faith in BS! :D


Since Treasure Cruise / Dig Through Time has been spoiled, I have been wondering about these cards in a Tempo-Painter deck. Or the other way around, in a blue metagame, thinking of a UR Tempodeck which maximizes on REB's and Pyroblasts with a combokill (being Painter-Stone).

I made a list which did quite alright in some online playtesting:
- 8 blue fetches
- 4 volcanic islands
- 1 tundra
- 4 islands
- 1 mountain
- 2 academy ruins

- 4 painter's servant
- 3 grindstone

- 4 Red Elemental Blasts
- 4 Pyroblasts
- 4 Force of Will

- 4 enlightened tutors
- 4 Treasure Cruise

- 4 brainstorm
- 4 ponder
- 2 gitaxian probe

- 1 ensnaring bridge
- 1 engineered explosives
- 1 tormod's crypt

This list uses cantrips and enlightened tutor as means to assemble the combo, backs it up with a full package of REBs and Pyroblasts, and uses TCruise to negate carddisatvantage from ETutor. Redundancy comes from Academy Ruins instead of goblin Welder, and has an Engineered Explosives package to go along. Disadvantage of this list is that it does not have welder shenanigans, and does not have artifactmana acceleration.

I prefer in this list TC over DTT because it is 1 mana cheaper (if you delve one extra mana), and because there's ETutor for targeted tutoring.

This is quite different than previous intuition lists, and therefore might be posted in the wrong place (perhaps it should be posted in a new experimental thread). But nontheless some thoughts and critics would be welcomed!

[Ish]

Dig through time is far better than treasure cruise in combo decks


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[paradigm72]

More on the white splash mentioned above - I ran this version of UR(w) Painter to 4-0 at our Legacy weekly today - felt like a really powerful deck in a room with very few Wastelands. The white splash seemed really strong and critical to many of the wins just because of the speed of tutoring into a combo piece compared to waiting to cantrip for it. Tutoring for Engineered Explosives to solve a problematic permanent was also game-winning.

Combo (8)
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant

Control/Protection (15)
3 Goblin Welder
2 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Spellskite

Dig/Tutors (14)
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Intuition
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Random Value (3)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Batterskull
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

Lands (20)
6 fetches
6 duals
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Aegis of the Gods
3 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Mutagenic Growth

Matchups were a bit unusual and probably quite lucky: Burn (scary, just have to be fast and don't play Painter's Servant until you can protect it), Reanimator x2 (take the control role, just counter everything especially once your red blasts are fully turned on), Enchantress (keep a fast hand, remember to plan for Emrakul post-board). Against a more typical field with blue control or tempo decks, I think playing the control role might be harder since we have some cards that are just multiple redundant combo pieces. Also, the deck felt vulnerable to mana disruption which might be a big problem if Daze/Stifle/Wasteland pick up again as a reaction to the greedy land counts going around.

Card Choices
Misdirection/Spellskite: these cards seem required to even have a chance against Abrupt Decay. Misdirection with an active Painter naming blue is almost always able to pitch a card you don't need to protect your combo piece. I was always happy to see these in hand as Forces 5 and 6.
Tormod's Crypt: you need to have a tutorable way to remove the graveyard in response to an Emrakul trigger - hence the 3x so you can grab it with Intuition as well as Enlightened Tutor. This is the only one I know of that doesn't also shut off your own welder/Academy Ruins.
Mutagenic Growth: not sure about this - in theory it's great against decks that have only Bolt effects to kill your painter, but in those matchups paying 2 life can sometimes take a turn off your opponent's clock. Serves as your 7th and 8th piece of free protection (after Force/Misdirection) which is sometimes needed I think.
Others: Most of the rest of what I played in the sideboard seems incorrect now - probably need to pick up three copies or Llawan and one Ensnaring Bridge which looks like more common slots for U/R builds and would probably be crucial against more typical creature decks. Batterskull felt really bad and always got boarded out - should probably be a mainboard Ensnaring Bridge or maybe even something like a Moat for a similar effect.
Mox Opal: not running it because in the limited U/R coverage available online, metalcraft seems to be turned off a non-trivial percentage of the time. I think it is also harder to run 7 artifact lands when you need enough fetches and duals to hit three colors reliably.

[merfolkotpt]

I like that you are still trying to innovate with the list. I like it a lot more with abrupt decay on the down turn that was definitely the hardest card for this deck to deal with.

That being said, i have some questions, do you feel like ET is too slow? I like the card, but I still the power of this deck is in the fact that it can be very fast. In addition it forces you to fetch a dual early (although looking now you have 0 basics, so I guess that is ok).

I also really liked Blood Moon out of the board traditionally, though maybe in the current meta that isn't as strong. Finally, if you are playing ET, I think having one tormod's crypt main, is probably justified. Having a shot to beat an emrakul main deck is good, and since we have welders, it makes it much better in the matchups we would like it. In addition, if you do decide you want more mana (i feel like your deck is light in general) it helps with metalcraft for mox opal.

Some cards to consider if you want to go back to just UR for your white cards are: gamble as one of your tutors (it sounds like you aren't wild about transmute artifact, but i like it), trinket mage so you can still have a toolbox (needle, EE, crypt, top, grindstone), and finally consider divert if you like misdirection a lot. I have tested both, and ended up not really liking either because they are very situational, but divert is a good card against AD and doesn't keep all the cards out of your hand.

If you were to go away from white but wanted similar cards to canonist/aegis of the gods, consider trinisphere as a possibility, or even if you up the number of tops (I like it more than ponder in this deck in general, because of synergies with welder, and potentially opal) you can play counterbalance.

[paradigm72]

merfolkotpt: I agree with a lot of what you've said. Enlightened Tutor does seem like it may slow the deck down by half a turn or so given that it disrupts the 1->2->3 curve. I usually find though that it makes so many otherwise bad opening hands into strong keeps, that the resilience and consistency gain is worth it. I'm very comfortable keeping an opener with one combo piece, an ET, and a cantrip. In a straight U/R build I'm not sure that is keepable because that ET would be something like a mana source or an extra cantrip instead, and there's a nonzero chance to miss ever seeing your second combo piece. Playing 4 ET + 3 Intuition makes consistency a total non-issue. I need more games to get a better feel for this, I may well be overvaluing that safety net.

Definitely agree that one Tormod's Crypt main is correct, that's just a detail I missed on the initial builds but now that I look at tcdecks more closely I see that it looks pretty standard even in the non-white versions. I hardly see any Emrakul in Madison but I won't pass up the chance to have tutorable graveyard hate against something like Reanimator.

It's probably time to get 1x Mox Opal and start working it in so I can do some real testing and see how many times the speed boost makes the difference - I can totally see it being viable. I do agree the deck is light on mana - running just the 20 lands here feels very greedy, and I would need to bump that up if Wasteland picks up again.

At the moment, there are so many red decks running around that I haven't felt the need for Blood Moon. It's unfortunate that it's just not compatible with the white splash because I'm on all nonbasics - being able to Enlightened Tutor for it would certainly be interesting. I'll probably try a straight U/R build at some point with the full set of Intuitions and a few Dig Through Time, and like the idea of Trinisphere there against all the 1-mana cantrips and removal going on.

[LOLWut]

This also has one foot in the Imperial Painter thread. Grixis Painter by Jonathan Salem. 2nd Place at Dec. 14, 2014 Seattle SCG Premier IQ (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77591)

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Force of Will
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Dig Through Time

Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
3 Goblin Welder
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Painter's Servant
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Trinket Mage

Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grindstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Enchantments
3 Counterbalance

Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
1 Transmute Artifact

Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Swamp

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Firebolt
1 Force of Will
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Meekstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Toxic Deluge

[mordraid]

I've been looking at lists posted in the last pages and i got some input.

- goblin welder and intuition are just too good together, we must play both.
- if plan A fails, what is plan B ? or plan C ?
- enlightened tutor is really great. Why bother saying it slows the deck when you can have exactly what you want. It only slows it down in theory beceause you "would" have what you need.
- adding white, and a third color just for enlightened tutor is probably wrong. silver bullets are fine but consistency in the manabase is crucial.

[paradigm72]

I've been looking at lists posted in the last pages and i got some input.
- if plan A fails, what is plan B ? or plan C ?


I have no answer to this other than tutor up Engineered Explosives to remove whatever problem permanent is stopping plan A :). A couple Welders/Painters can sometimes be a clock against combo, but not against basically any creature deck.


I've been looking at lists posted in the last pages and i got some input.
- enlightened tutor is really great. Why bother saying it slows the deck when you can have exactly what you want. It only slows it down in theory beceause you "would" have what you need.
- adding white, and a third color just for enlightened tutor is probably wrong. silver bullets are fine but consistency in the manabase is crucial.

I'm not following, are you saying that we should be trying more white silver bullets in the builds that splash white, or that the Enlightened Tutor line is just a dead end? I'm not sure which is right at this point, would like to hear more.

[deadlock]

I am heavily testing a new build currently and got some input:
- ET is mediocre, as it opens us up to a 2 for 1 trade, but the biggest problem is the 3rd color splash. It weakens our solid manabase and weakens Mox at worst. Speaking of Mox Opal is one of the strongest cards in the deck, it is one of the cards which makes the deck tick and got heavily boosted by the new legend rule. Never play less than 4!
- Intuition relies too much on Welder otherwise its really bad imo. Paying 3 to get a card, while pulling out the juice of the deck seems weak in cases without Welder. Welder should be played as a threat, which has to be answered fast otherwise we pull ahead, not as a must protect (for Intuition).
- Transmute is a love / hate card. I would play 2 at most as it opens up the line of adding 2 Grim and a single Batterskull as a decent alt-win / stall tactic. The problem is that there other powerful 2 mana spells, like Dig and Snapcaster Mage.

This deck can be great in the new meta, because if correctly build, it can both take the aggressive combo as well as the control role (at least post board). Miracles is easier to beat that a fast hand from Delver, which reflect this stance.

[death]

My guess would be:
-Enlightened Tutor, -Transmute Artifact, -Intuition

+4 Dig Through Time, +4Gitaxian Probe, moar fetches

The Probes and extra fetches will help fire off early DTTs. DTT may just be enough to find exactly what you're looking for. Targetting yourself with Grindstone also enables 2nd/3rd copies of DTT. The side effect though is enemy red blasts now hurt your plan.

What are your thoughts on running Lotus Petal/Mox Diamond? Since these fuel the yard faster and you stop relying on metalcraft/clunky mana base.

Yep, looking at the previous page, people seem to have been more in love with Treasure Cruise, I was expecting 3-4 DTT builds and found none.

[deadlock]

My guess would be:
-Enlightened Tutor, -Transmute Artifact, -Intuition

+4 Dig Through Time, +4Gitaxian Probe, moar fetches

The Probes and extra fetches will help fire off early DTTs. DTT may just be enough to find exactly what you're looking for. Targetting yourself with Grindstone also enables 2nd/3rd copies of DTT. The side effect though is enemy red blasts now hurt your plan.

What are your thoughts on running Lotus Petal/Mox Diamond? Since these fuel the yard faster and you stop relying on metalcraft/clunky mana base.

Yep, looking at the previous page, people seem to have been more in love with Treasure Cruise, I was expecting 3-4 DTT builds and found none.

Both Dig and Probe are strong in testing. I currently run 2 Dig and 0 Probes. One of the weaknesses of Dig is that it costs 2 mana (often overlooked). I also dont want to rely too heavily on them, as they tend to clock up my hand in multiples. It is cool to see the hand of my opponent, but with smart play it is not really needed imo. Also I want to have each little bit of life, which can often mean having another turn or not. Having Welder as an additional engine at 1 mana is also stronger, because it stretches thin the removal of my opponent (but it's not I rely on him like builds with Intuition). The super synergy card for Welder is SDT anyway, as it is good without him. You dont need to bother to check the top 3 with a Welder out, just draw cards of it and keep mana up for other stuff.

I currently run 4 Lotus Petal besides 4 Mox Opal and 17 Land. Petal may look weak, but it does an insane of work in my build.
- It enables metalcraft of Mox.
- Can negate taxing counters like Daze.
- Is a easy way to enable Welder.
- Powers up Dig.
- And finally powers up Thoughtcast! A card which I really like, because opponents tend to not counter them, but still have a bad feeling, as they see me draw more and more cards. I crushed control decks by simply chaining Thoughtcasts and replay them of Snapcaster Mage. It is funny to outcontrol Miracles with this approach. It is also the reason why I dont need to go all-in on the huge delve spells while still utilizing them. Between Welder+SDT, Dig and Thoughtcast this deck has an insane amount of draw, which is actually the most fun thing for me ;)

[Koby]

What are your thoughts on running Lotus Petal/Mox Diamond? Since these fuel the yard faster and you stop relying on metalcraft/clunky mana base.

Most of the mana bases I've seen rely on around 18-20 lands, which makes Mox Diamond inconsistent. Lotus Petal, while helping both Metalcraft and a short burst of mana, also suffers from mana inconsistencies. I've personally liked running the mana base as such:

4-5 Sol Lands
6-8 Fetch lands
1-2 Basics
2-3 Dual lands
2-4 Artifact lands
3-4 Mox Opal

Where the varying numbers depend on which specifics of the deck you run (like Transmute Artifact, or Grim Monolith, etc)

[deadlock]

While TA is card disadvantage (if it resolves!), it is necessary for this deck imo. Without Intuition there is no way to get the single graveyard hoser (Tormods Crypt in my list) in time. Also it gives us an out to Chalice or CB sometimes. It also makes sideboard silverbullets stronger. The question is if we should run it with Grim Monolith together and Batterskull / Wurmcoil from the board? The problem is that we have another 2 card combo of TA + Grim, compared to SFM, which just gets Skull out and leaves a body behind. Is it still a powerful enough play for g2,3? Next question would be to either run a 2/2 or a 3/3 TA/ Grim split? Currently I think that this play is too slow to matter and we should just play two TA without Grim. However if you add Pyroclasm to the equation, the game may become slow enough to make this an ok play. The package would also benefit from a higher Welder count (like 2-3). As one can just sac a artifact land and not pay for Skull / Wurm and weld it in. Keep in mind that it would gives us a way to ignore certain hate cards like Needle alltogether and just beat with lifegainers. This would also shrug off Surgical Extraction on either Painter or Stone.

Edit: Death I actually test a 4 Dig build now. It is an insane card and justifies to build around it. My current build can be insanely explosive, drawing of Thoughtcast in the first turn, but going into topdeck soon after. Additionaly the nature of a 2 card combo makes the requirement of an increased amount of dig necessary, as one tend to draw into the wrong pieces.

[Jizz]

Hello,

I used to play this deck in the grixis colour combination, with Counterbalance. Counterbalance was quite heavy and I'm happy to not see it there. Nonetheless, CB was my main plan vs a Stp deck, while Welder covered the decay ones.
Then, since you don't play CB, what is your gameplan vs Stp decks ? I often see Spellskite and Wurmcoil in sideboards. Does this plan involve an "overwhelming" of targets ? Or simply reb it ?

[merfolkotpt]

Hey guys,

It has been a pretty long while since I have played any legacy, but turns out there is a GP in my neck of the woods next year, and I have decided to dust off the cobwebs and see if Painter still has any play. Here is the list I am looking at it is pretty similar to some of my old lists:
Winning the Game and B plan:
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull

Draw and tutor:
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Transmute Artifact
3 Intuition

Protection:
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast

Mana:
2 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace

SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms
SB: 2 Spellskite

A couple of the new choices, and things I am unsure about. First, I don't know if the tutor/draw/etc package is correct it is possible that 3-3 4-2 4-4 mix on TA and intuition is correct, but I am not sure without testing. Secondly, Batterskull is a concession to miracles. I feel like we have the mana to make that a really reasonable threat and it, unlike wumcoil survives terminus sort of. It also has the added bonus of being able to TA off of a Monolith by itself. It is probably slightly worse against tempo, but I think it is probably worth it. As for the SB the old hits are there for the most part Bridge, and Blood Moon, I have however reverted to bringing in REBs over the flusters of the past this is a concession to omnitell being a tough and very present MU. My plan at this moment is to mostly convert to a UR control deck vs Omnitell for games 2 and 3 with maybe 1 copy each of painter grindstone and crypt left in the deck. Keranos and the 2nd batterskull are both for Miracles.

If anyone is still playing the deck, or is interested in trying again (Ish? Koby? tkDodo) I am going to start working on this deck a lot again, so I would be happy to have the theory crafting conversations, and we did some good work in the past.


Hello,

I used to play this deck in the grixis colour combination, with Counterbalance. Counterbalance was quite heavy and I'm happy to not see it there. Nonetheless, CB was my main plan vs a Stp deck, while Welder covered the decay ones.
Then, since you don't play CB, what is your gameplan vs Stp decks ? I often see Spellskite and Wurmcoil in sideboards. Does this plan involve an "overwhelming" of targets ? Or simply reb it ?

Spellskite, especially with welder is very good against STP because you can switch targets and then weld the spellskite out so the swords fizzles. In addition, yes, you can just have more necessary targets than they have swords. This is also one of the reasons I am testing out Batterskull in one of the wurmcoil slots because swords is NOT a good answer to it. We also in the past have brought in multiple flusterstorms, right now I am instead bringing in more REBs but that still might be worse than flusterstorm for the reason you are mentioning.

The biggest thing is that we can reload on components very easily. Also, having welder available for tricks means that they usually have to kill the welder before they kill the painter, which sometimes just gives us enough time to win.

[kingtk3]

Hey guys,

It has been a pretty long while since I have played any legacy, but turns out there is a GP in my neck of the woods next year, and I have decided to dust off the cobwebs and see if Painter still has any play. Here is the list I am looking at it is pretty similar to some of my old lists:
Winning the Game and B plan:
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull

Draw and tutor:
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Transmute Artifact
3 Intuition

Protection:
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast

Mana:
2 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace

SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms
SB: 2 Spellskite

A couple of the new choices, and things I am unsure about. First, I don't know if the tutor/draw/etc package is correct it is possible that 3-3 4-2 4-4 mix on TA and intuition is correct, but I am not sure without testing. Secondly, Batterskull is a concession to miracles. I feel like we have the mana to make that a really reasonable threat and it, unlike wumcoil survives terminus sort of. It also has the added bonus of being able to TA off of a Monolith by itself. It is probably slightly worse against tempo, but I think it is probably worth it. As for the SB the old hits are there for the most part Bridge, and Blood Moon, I have however reverted to bringing in REBs over the flusters of the past this is a concession to omnitell being a tough and very present MU. My plan at this moment is to mostly convert to a UR control deck vs Omnitell for games 2 and 3 with maybe 1 copy each of painter grindstone and crypt left in the deck. Keranos and the 2nd batterskull are both for Miracles.

If anyone is still playing the deck, or is interested in trying again (Ish? Koby? tkDodo) I am going to start working on this deck a lot again, so I would be happy to have the theory crafting conversations, and we did some good work in the past.



Spellskite, especially with welder is very good against STP because you can switch targets and then weld the spellskite out so the swords fizzles. In addition, yes, you can just have more necessary targets than they have swords. This is also one of the reasons I am testing out Batterskull in one of the wurmcoil slots because swords is NOT a good answer to it. We also in the past have brought in multiple flusterstorms, right now I am instead bringing in more REBs but that still might be worse than flusterstorm for the reason you are mentioning.

The biggest thing is that we can reload on components very easily. Also, having welder available for tricks means that they usually have to kill the welder before they kill the painter, which sometimes just gives us enough time to win.

Hi merfolkotpt, nice to see you again.

If you haven't played legacy in the few months the first thing you should know is that right now the best decks are the ones which can efficiently use Dig through Time: just look at the tier decks and you'll see that almost everyone plays 2-4 copies of the aformentioned card.

The card is so powerful but legacy took sometimes to discover it because everyone was in the Treasure Cruise boat (pun intended ^_^ ), so I'm taking my time explaining you because you might not grasp it immediately.

While TC fueled tempo-aggro decks, DTT is more for controllish or combo decks (though not necessarily); I think you should try to fit in painter stone even of it means to seriously alter your maindeck (see lacks of ponder)!

Cheers.

[merfolkotpt]

So I began testing my list last night. I appreciate the advice, and it is possible that Dig is better than intuition or transmute in this deck, but it would require a massive retooling (probably to mono blue, and at that point why not just play omnitell?), but for now I am going to start with an old list and work forward to where the format is right now.

I played against Junk (or Dark Maverick maybe?) anyhow, it was not a great matchup, but historically was only good if you won within the first three turns. I was blown out in game 3 by 3 wastelands and a Nethervoid. I still would have won that game (the turn before he drew nethervoid) I think, but his last card in that hand was swords to murder my wurmcoil. So if not for those two draws in a row (or saved swords) i think i was perfectly in the game, despite a resolved choke. I am alright with that MU being bad, as looking at mtgtop8 it doesn't appear to be all that common.

Onto the meat, I played against 4c delver or grixis splashing green delver 12 times, and as it turns out wurmcoil is still really really good. He beat me once on the back of multiple wastelands and dazes (the way delver wants every game to play out) but for the most part I felt like I could mostly ignore or play around his soft counters. As usual, goblin welder in some games was absolutely absurd, and in other games did exactly what it was supposed to do by drawing a counter/removal spell and allowing the other cards in the deck to just win.

I think this shell is still very powerful, and the reason has to do with the inherent flexibility in plan that you are going for. All the tutors get different things, and work different depending on the cards in play, which, in turn, allows you to adjust your plan on the fly. I was also surprised, despite the fact that my opponent had multiple deathrite shamans in play, how often he had to tap out to execute his game plan. It seems like this might be due to my opponent not being familiar with the match up, but it worked out quite well for me, because as I said, playing around daze with sol lands, and grim monolith is not bad at all.

A couple things I noticed, ensnaring bridge seems like an effective card still, but I think you need to have access to LED to drop down to 0 cards quickly. I was siding out forces a lot, but I dont' know if that actually makes the most sense, for this deck, since we are using them to protect our combo a lot, rather than counter our opponents bombs. It is possible that we could side in 4 skites to make up for them against non-broken decks with lots of removal, as skite with welder is better (and more card efficient) than force, though it can be mana intensive. Further testing is warranted.

The biggest thing that struck me was that it didn't feel like my delver opponent outclassed me, by any means. If that version of delver (or similar) is on the upswing and Jeskai is not popular anymore, I am perfectly content to utilize wurmcoils.

[Michael Keller]

Would something like a single Svyelunite Temple round out and compliment early hands that don't have UU to power out the combo with Transmute Artifact?

[merfolkotpt]

Svyelunite Temple is sort of interesting, but in general a "fast" transmute is a relative term, and it involves getting a Grim monolith into play, but unless you are fetching up batterskull, it still requires access to 6 mana total. So like the ideal circumstance is something like turn 1 tomb > monolith, turn 2 seat + mox opal > transmute. Since temple comes into play tapped it isn't actually necessarily that much faster.

I think, with the deck manipulation available the key to playing the deck well is being able to understand what plan you are on at any given moment and play accordingly. This is relevant because if I am going for transmute I usually just plan for how I am going to assemble my mana, and mox opal is the great fixer in that regard. In addition, make sure you are fetching for basics (mostly basic island) 85% of the time, and you should be ok.

[Ish]

Been playing a lot of UBr tezz lately.

But painter remains one of my favorite cards and archetypes. And the decks share a lot in common.

When looking to update UR painter here I would highly consider Dack Fayden. I've been playing 3 of in tezz and love him.

He's even better in this she'll. you can utilize the graveyard more, and his ultimate is great with red blasts as a backup plan.

I'm tinkering with a list now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[merfolkotpt]

Ish,

Good to see you again. Yeah my last list before my hiatus was a 3 dack list, but I just found that it moved me toward a more slow and controlling build, which isn't necessarily wrong, but definitely looks a lot more like grixis control than these painter decks, and I think that would be a good starting place, specifically including some number of Baleful Strix, and maybe trading out some of the combo pieces for control elements. That probably also contains some number of digs, over our traditional tutors (probably transmute is the first cut) and maybe includes the addition of counterbalance again somewhere in the 75.

This seems interesting to me, and might be a more correct way to build the deck at present, but I am going to stick with a more traditional build at least for my initial testing. We can compare notes after playing a bit more. I feel like the inherent synergies in this build are sort of hard to compete with, but I may be wrong and a shift to a slower more controlling list is the correct move.

[Mapson]

There has been a grixis version of the deck before.

Here's a list that came in second at a premier iq:
Creatures (12)

3 Baleful Strix
2 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Trinket Mage
Planeswalkers (2)

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (22)

1 Seat of the Synod
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
Spells (25)

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grindstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Transmute Artifact
Sideboard

1 Meekstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Firebolt
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge





its much less explosive and way more controlling

[DireNTropy]

I went 3-0, ID in final round at my weekly legacy event with this deck

Round 1: Death and Taxes
Game 1: I land an early top and painter's servant against a turn 2 Thalia into turn 3 Leonin Arbiter. I Misdirect a Swords to Plowshares to the Leonin Arbiter and Transmute my top into a Grindstone for the win.
Game 2: Multiple Wastelands plus Mangara/Karakas combo lock me out of the game.
Game 3: I start with the combo in hand and lead with Ancient Tomb into Spellskite, which promptly is hit by Swords to Plowshares. I follow it up with another Spellskite, Painter's Servant, and Grindstone against a Mother of Runes, Phyrexian Revoker (naming Grindstone), and Stoneforge Mystic tutoring up a Umezawa's Jitte. I Pyroblast the Revoker end of turn and win.

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2: Omnitell
Game 1: I Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, and Flusterstorm Brainstorms and Ponders and my opponent never makes his second land drop. I don't know what deck he's playing other than that it has Volcanic Islands.
Game 2: I quickly assemble the combo with Sensei's Divining Top while my opponent drew many lands. I realize only after he concedes that he's playing Omnitell and I tell him not to scoop next time since he has Emrakul in the deck.

2-0 (4-1)

Round 3: Infect
Game 1: I mulligan to 5 and lose a battle where my attempt to Misdirection a lethal Invigorate is hit by Force of Will, and my Pyroblast on the Force of Will is hit by Daze.
Game 2: I land a fast combo with Misdirections and pyroblasts.
Game 3: I play a turn 1 Spellskite off of Ancient Tomb, which is hit by a Krosan Grip powered by his Noble Hierarch. I play a Painter's Servant with Goblin Welder as backup. I am hit for 2 poison by an exalted Glistener Elf. I attempt to pyroblast an attacking Glistener Elf, responded to with a kicked Vines of Vastwood on the Elf. I use my Goblin Welder to turn the Painter's Servant into a Spellskite and redirect the Vines to itself. The pyroblast fizzles, but the buffed Spellskite eats the Glistener Elf. I land a Blood Moon and he casts double Force of Will onto the pyroblast on his remaining Noble Hierarch (I attempted to misdirect the first one), leaving us both with no cards in hand. I topdeck a Grindstone soon to win the game

3-0 (6-2)

Round 4: ID


Deck
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder

1 Transmute Artifact
2 Intuition

2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
2 Misdirection

4 Goblin Welder
2 Dack Fayden

1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant

1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Opal

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard
3 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Counterbalance
2 Spellskite
1 Pithing Needle

Notes:
-Spellskite was great against both Death and Taxes and Infect, I might move up to 3 copies
-I will probably remove Counterbalance from the board, probably include some Ancient Grudges
-I never sided in the Batterskull or Wurmcoil Engine
-I did not miss Force of Will at all; Misdirection was as good or better each time I cast it
-Flusterstorm was great
-Did not use Lion's Eye Diamond or Grim Monolith at all
-I am not sure how good Ensnaring Bridge is; it doesn't stop Omnitell much since they can Cunning Wish for an answer, and it's difficult to empty our hand quickly since we play counterspells

Possible Changes
-4 Counterbalance
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
+1 Spellskite
+1 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Ancient Grudge
+1 Chill? Our Burn matchup is pretty bad...

[Jizz]

Hello,

thank you for your answer merfolkotpt.

Lately I have been interested in making UR Painter a Dig Through time Control Deck with a painter kill finish. I thought about the interaction Thought scour + Dig + Welder. But it is actually anti synergistic in the sense that Welder requires artifacts to be in play, and therefore weakens the power of Dig. Welder is strong with top and strix but these two are not the best combined with dig, etc.. I thought that Kolaghan's command is a much better card when you also play Dig. Anyway, I'd like to have your opinion on this (approximative) list :

1 [TSP] Academy Ruins (not sure if this should be a 9th fetch or not) // 1 Bloodstained Mire
1 [UNH] Mountain
2 [UNH] Island
2 [R] Underground Sea
4 [KTK] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [R] Volcanic Island

2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant

1 [C13] Nihil Spellbomb (not sure if main deck -definitely in with ruins ; against omnishow, maybe we can go beatdown (2 cspell 4 blast to get there, and 4 bolts 2 kolaghan to burn)) // 1 Gurmag Angler
2 [TE] Grindstone
1 [CNS] Misdirection
2 [7E] Counterspell
2 [DTK] Kolaghan's Command
2 [5E] Pyroblast
2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
4 [CNS] Brainstorm
4 [KTK] Dig Through Time
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [M11] Lightning Bolt
4 [DKA] Thought Scour
4 [M12] Ponder

The sideboard is not finished at all but I want an alternative win condition in all MUs (because of Surgical). I'm also debating whether I want pyroclasm or more creatures (dread/sulfur ; Magus/Moon, Dark confidant) : Pyroclasm makes the Grixis Delver MU quite easy but can be anti synergistic with Sulfur (D1T), Clique if chosen as alternative condition where pyroclasm is useful and does not cover Goose, goyf.

SB: 1 [SOM] Koth of the Hammer // 0 - we can't protect him (no bridge, etc)
SB: 2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [9E] Blood Moon // 2 Blood moon
SB: 1 [C13] Nihil Spellbomb //2 Nihil spellbomb or Surgicals -useful vs Miracle I guess.
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast

The deck is more controll-ish with a painter finish. It could also need an alternative Main deck win Condition other than snap beatdowns (I thought about main decking 1 clique or even 1 Koth). I like it because it should have quite good MUs vs greedy manabase (that are 4c Delver/Lands/Loam) while keeping an ok MU vs Omnishow. Also reb-ing a goyf, an enchantment, or a land is something nice in a grixis control shell.

[merfolkotpt]

Sad, just as we get some interest in a new build, Dig through time goes bye bye. In other news, old school UR painter, (see my list above) is still playing out fine. I like it.

It might be worthwhile to think about that now, especially since one of the bad matchups, just got (presumably) a lot less popular and or morphed back into Sneak and Show which is way easier to beat than Omnitell.

I am excited about testing against whatever tweaks happen to miracles for a full assessment. In general, I think the B&R annoucnement was positive for UR painter.

[Jizz]

Sad, just as we get some interest in a new build, Dig through time goes bye bye. In other news, old school UR painter, (see my list above) is still playing out fine. I like it.

It might be worthwhile to think about that now, especially since one of the bad matchups, just got (presumably) a lot less popular and or morphed back into Sneak and Show which is way easier to beat than Omnitell.

I am excited about testing against whatever tweaks happen to miracles for a full assessment. In general, I think the B&R annoucnement was positive for UR painter.

It's about time : a grixis Tezz painter list made its way into day 2 of SCG NJ. I would love to see the list :). I wonder how the Miracle MU is.

[deadlock]

Depends on the build obviously. More exactly how many maindeck Blasts and the type of engine. E.g. I played a build with Thoughtcast and Snapcaster as a draw engine and it crushed Miracles, because they couldnt handle the amount of cardadvantage.