[Deck] Painter-Stone

[Jizz]

Depends on the build obviously. More exactly how many maindeck Blasts and the type of engine. E.g. I played a build with Thoughtcast and Snapcaster as a draw engine and it crushed Miracles, because they couldnt handle the amount of cardadvantage.

That's why I asked for the list :). Maybe you can give yours, to get a debate going. I couldn't find it in the last 3 pages.
This deck may have a shot in the metagame, since it is strong versus Lands/Loam and Miracle with the right build.

[CptHaddock]

That's why I asked for the list :). Maybe you can give yours, to get a debate going. I couldn't find it in the last 3 pages.
This deck may have a shot in the metagame, since it is strong versus Lands/Loam and Miracle with the right build.

They did post his list, he got 11th. I'm not sure why SCG removed his list from the results but here it is: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18983&iddeck=144090.

[alaska]

I'm thinking about getting into Painter (usually a Reanimator/TinFins/Dredge/Storm player).

What's the one LED for? I see this in a lot of lists, and I'm perplexed.

[Ancestral]

I'm thinking about getting into Painter (usually a Reanimator/TinFins/Dredge/Storm player).

What's the one LED for? I see this in a lot of lists, and I'm perplexed.

activate grindstone faster

[deadlock]

It is basically the traditional Intuition build he played with a splash for Tezz. I dont like the situational Dack and Bridge in the maindeck over maxing out SDT and Mox. Questions are:
(1) What do think about the black splash? Imo it is a strong option and should definitely be explored. Thoughtseize is another strong black card to consider. The question is if it is stronger than another on color alt win / search option? E.g. 2 Transmute Artifact and a Batterskull. TA can tutor stuff up directly and allows us to put additional Grindstones etc to good use. It can also dump Skull into the yard to weld it in. Note that Skull also makes Welder good in the face of an active DRS (as it cannot be removed). Also finding the Nihil Spellbomb in time can be difficult without TA.
(2) What do you think about the Dack's and Ensnaring Bridge? Dack hasnt proven itself that well in Grixis list, because his artifact steal isnt relevant enough in Legacy. He cannot protect himself and relies on other cards to be good (Bridge and Welder). Bridge is strong in Painter decks, but more sb material. This build also cannot find it reliable in time. Bridge from the board becomes stronger with TA in the deck. 7 CMC3 is also quite high even with acceleration (with 3 Tezz on top!).

Sidenote: Counterbalance should be at least considered in Painter decks. Mana management becomes a problem though. It possibly shifts away the focus of the deck, but could be worthwhile if considered as a way to protect Welder and Painter against removal.

[alaska]

activate grindstone faster

So it's just a miser's piece of acceleration? Seems like you wouldn't consistently draw it.

[drude1]

So it's just a miser's piece of acceleration? Seems like you wouldn't consistently draw it.

It's for the intuition. If you have a welder out, you intuition for the pieces you need and LED, you weld in LED and use it to activate grindstone.

[alaska]

It's for the intuition. If you have a welder out, you intuition for the pieces you need and LED, you weld in LED and use it to activate grindstone.

Got it, that makes more sense.

[merfolkotpt]

It is basically the traditional Intuition build he played with a splash for Tezz. I dont like the situational Dack and Bridge in the maindeck over maxing out SDT and Mox. Questions are:
(1) What do think about the black splash? Imo it is a strong option and should definitely be explored. Thoughtseize is another strong black card to consider. The question is if it is stronger than another on color alt win / search option? E.g. 2 Transmute Artifact and a Batterskull. TA can tutor stuff up directly and allows us to put additional Grindstones etc to good use. It can also dump Skull into the yard to weld it in. Note that Skull also makes Welder good in the face of an active DRS (as it cannot be removed). Also finding the Nihil Spellbomb in time can be difficult without TA.
(2) What do you think about the Dack's and Ensnaring Bridge? Dack hasnt proven itself that well in Grixis list, because his artifact steal isnt relevant enough in Legacy. He cannot protect himself and relies on other cards to be good (Bridge and Welder). Bridge is strong in Painter decks, but more sb material. This build also cannot find it reliable in time. Bridge from the board becomes stronger with TA in the deck. 7 CMC3 is also quite high even with acceleration (with 3 Tezz on top!).

Sidenote: Counterbalance should be at least considered in Painter decks. Mana management becomes a problem though. It possibly shifts away the focus of the deck, but could be worthwhile if considered as a way to protect Welder and Painter against removal.

When i tried the black splash out in the past, I found it was too slow, but it is possible the format is slower. It definitely made the matchup with various flavors of delver better, though i was playing some number of Baleful Stryx at the time which are good in that matchup and UH-Mazing with Welder. I was not wild about dack in any incarnation I have played. Ensnaring bridge is a powerful card, but I like it more as a one of when I can consistently get it into play (read I am playing some number of transmute artifact). I think it is a similar card for our purposes to wurmcoil engine, and either can be fine.

Overall, I agree with you, but I am encouraged to see people trying different things. Like I said, with Tezzeret and Black in general I like stryx, that guy does work. That being said, i think the biggest issue for this deck right now is probably miracles, so adding in planeswalkers seems like a reasonable plan to me.

EDIT: Here is a start for a black list that I would try our, might need a bit more mana, maybe in the form of monolith?
Deck: Painter /b (http://deckstats.net/decks/8790/373645-painter-b/en) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif

//Main
4 Goblin Welder (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Goblin+Welder)
4 Painter's Servant (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Painter%27s+Servant)
4 Intuition (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Intuition)
2 Sensei's Divining Top (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Sensei%27s+Divining+Top)
1 Lion's Eye Diamond (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Lion%27s+Eye+Diamond)
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Tezzeret%2C+Agent+of+Bolas)
3 Baleful Strix (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Baleful+Strix)
2 Transmute Artifact (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Transmute+Artifact)
3 Mox Opal (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mox+Opal)
1 Ensnaring Bridge (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ensnaring+Bridge)
4 Force of Will (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Force+of+Will)
3 Pyroblast (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Pyroblast)
4 Brainstorm (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Brainstorm)
2 Underground Sea (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Underground+Sea)
2 Volcanic Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Volcanic+Island)
4 Scalding Tarn (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Scalding+Tarn)
1 Polluted Delta (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Polluted+Delta)
2 Island (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Island)
3 Seat of the Synod (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Seat+of+the+Synod)
2 Ancient Tomb (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Ancient+Tomb)
1 Mountain (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Mountain)
1 Great Furnace (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Great+Furnace)
4 Grindstone (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=en&card=Grindstone)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics (http://deckstats.net/decks/8790/373645-painter-b)

[amppyou]

Hello everyone. This is my first post on this thread. The last time I played U/R painter was a few years ago at an SCG in Los Angeles. More recently I'd switched over to Strawberry Shortcake (R/w painter) but have been extremely unhappy with how badly it draws. Drawing a hand of blasts is so disappointing when you don't have a painter. Recruiter is such a slow means of finding a painter and enlightened tutor never felt good. I'll miss rest in peace, but I wanted to see how U/R was doing, seeing how it was the funnest Legacy deck i'd ever played.

Just wanted to post the following list, as I hadn't seen any discussion on it yet:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=95717

I really like what Grixis has to offer with Tezzeret. As a plan B it is vastly superior to mono R / Rw's plan of attacking with welders/painter's servants.

[Fordin]

Hello everyone. This is my first post on this thread. The last time I played U/R painter was a few years ago at an SCG in Los Angeles. More recently I'd switched over to Strawberry Shortcake (R/w painter) but have been extremely unhappy with how badly it draws. Drawing a hand of blasts is so disappointing when you don't have a painter. Recruiter is such a slow means of finding a painter and enlightened tutor never felt good. I'll miss rest in peace, but I wanted to see how U/R was doing, seeing how it was the funnest Legacy deck i'd ever played.

Just wanted to post the following list, as I hadn't seen any discussion on it yet:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=95717

I really like what Grixis has to offer with Tezzeret. As a plan B it is vastly superior to mono R / Rw's plan of attacking with welders/painter's servants.

If you look up about 10 posts, CptHaddock has posted that list, but from a different link: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18983&iddeck=144090. deadlock made an analysis of the black splash; I thought he had some good thoughts about the black splash. I have the idea that in a slower metagame, Tezzeret might be good.

[That nice guy]

It is basically the traditional Intuition build he played with a splash for Tezz. I dont like the situational Dack and Bridge in the maindeck over maxing out SDT and Mox.

Hey, I'm the guy that got 11th at SCG New Jersey,

I plan on writing a report eventually but I need more time.

(1)


Thoughtseize is another strong black card to consider.
I've wanted Thoughseize for its versatility. But nothing ends counterwars like Fluster. And with the necessary artifact lands, it's better to be more consistent.
I also like reactive things in those matches. Floating a fluster on top with top protects you from duress. Thoughtseize can also be a bad topdeck. Fluster is good against burn.
I also never want to thoughtseize a reanimator player and see just creatures and lands after they brainstorm.


The question is if it is stronger than another on color alt win / search option?
Tezz is a house! IMO it is way better than Jace at the price of having to build a deck around him. He's card advantage/search and an alternate wincon around Emrakul all in one.


TA can tutor stuff up directly and allows us to put additional Grindstones etc to good use.
I think Tezz is a better search than TA because you wont get 2for1ed which is terrible. Searching makes him more of a threat. Also, every turn he makes top better.
Additional grindstones are useful because Opponent wont be able to break one if another is open. Also, in the late game you can activate, they go to kill painter, and you can activate again. They're also really good at pitching to force once they're blue and throwing away with brainstorm. In summation card advantage is key.


It can also dump Skull into the yard to weld it in. Note that Skull also makes Welder good in the face of an active DRS (as it cannot be removed).
Batterskull is way to slow for my taste. To be honest, I haven't tested it though. But I imagine that I don't want to Transmute to 5 mana.
I've never had a problem with DRS eating creatures, only with fighting bloodmoons.
Welder doesn't need help.


Also finding the Nihil Spellbomb in time can be difficult without TA.
This opinion is very valid, but I didn't really need Nhil durring the tournament, Tezz gave consistency. Note, Against a lot of grave decks, TA CAN BE too little too late.

(2)


Dack hasnt proven itself that well in Grixis list, because his artifact steal isnt relevant enough in Legacy. He cannot protect himself and relies on other cards to be good (Bridge and Welder).
I agree! The problem is that I knew I was going into a heavy Death and Taxes/UW meta, and I was worried about MUD. This was purely an essential meta choice. I would not have done well without him. I stole 2 Jitte's, a Sword of Fire and ICE, 2 mox diamond (with bloodmoon out), I messed with top/counterbalance, he saved a lot of swings at my face, and I even stole a chalice on 1 which I turned into a 5/5 to block forever. He also made the 4 welder amazing all day during game 1s.



Bridge is strong in Painter decks, but more sb material. This build also cannot find it reliable in time. Bridge from the board becomes stronger with TA in the deck. 7 CMC3 is also quite high even with acceleration (with 3 Tezz on top!)
Intuition->Welder is all you need game 1. Then TA comes in. Against most decks you wont need bridge if Tezz's making artifact lands into 5/5s. Also, those lands can't be abrupt decayed.
The curve allows you to throw a haymaker every turn, in the hopes that one lands and K.O.s your opponent.
Bridge is just an extra haymaker.



Sidenote: Counterbalance should be at least considered in Painter decks. Mana management becomes a problem though. It possibly shifts away the focus of the deck, but could be worthwhile if considered as a way to protect Welder and Painter against removal.
Counterbalance is so very slow to set up. I wanted to try it in the side but don't have the space. The real focus of the deck is to throw haymakes till you win, or to find silver bullets G2.

I hope that helps clear things up. IDK when I'll get that tournament report out, but it'd be nice.

[mcbain]

Great answers. As a long time painter player I found your responses helpful in sharing the perspective of a painted stone player.

Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk

[keys]

Hey, I'm the guy that got 11th at SCG New Jersey,

I plan on writing a report eventually but I need more time.


Definitely looking forward to the report if you get a chance to write it!

Tezz 2.0 looks really strong. I think everyone thought vanilla Tezz would be more synergistic with the main plan, but you can't discount the value of a strong plan B (especially when Emrakul is lurking around)!

[Fordin]

Hey, I'm the guy that got 11th at SCG New Jersey,

I plan on writing a report eventually but I need more time.



Thanks for your reply, and looking forward to the report. I hope you have time and an inclination to write it! Question: how do you protect Welder in game 1 from cards like Abrupt Decay, since Spellkite is in the sideboard?


Definitely looking forward to the report if you get a chance to write it!

Tezz 2.0 looks really strong. I think everyone thought vanilla Tezz would be more synergistic with the main plan, but you can't discount the value of a strong plan B (especially when Emrakul is lurking around)!

I'm just getting into Legacy from a many-year hiatus from Magic and am looking to try out Welder/Stone. What's Tezz 2.0 and what's vanilla Tezz?

[Rampart]

Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is Little Tezz or Tezz 2.0
Tezzeret the Seeker is Big Tezz or Vanilla Tezz

You don't protect Goblin welder from Abrupt Decay. If they are choosing to use premium removal on a non-combo piece it already preformed the work of Spellskite.

Spellskite is in the sideboard for additional protection for your permanents such as painter/stone/welder/blood moon, etc. it also has other interactions with the format as well such as against burn and infect which also makes it valuable

[That nice guy]

Thanks for your reply, and looking forward to the report. I hope you have time and an inclination to write it! Question: how do you protect Welder in game 1 from cards like Abrupt Decay, since Spellkite is in the sideboard?


You don't protect Goblin welder from Abrupt Decay. If they are choosing to use premium removal on a non-combo piece it already preformed the work of Spellskite.

Spellskite is in the sideboard for additional protection for your permanents such as painter/stone/welder/blood moon, etc. it also has other interactions with the format as well such as against burn and infect which also makes it valuable

Rampart answered this well. I think of Welder as a preemptive, and mana efficient, counterspell, and if they don't deal with Welder he wins games. Like I said, you want to keep throwing bombs/haymakers until your opponent is overwhelmed. So think of welder as a lightning(bolt)-rod that wins games.

Spellskite might not be in the SB if infect and burn didn't exist. Those decks are scary, fast. I still haven't decided if bloodmoon should come in against infect. Either way, those matchups are tough.

[deadlock]

Hey, thanks for the detailed answers That nice guy! Some remarks:
- TA is only card disadvantage if it resolves and thus a way to make use of redundant effects. But you are right that FoW pitching does the same. TA tutoring for specific board cards is one advantage, but you solve it by having TA in the board as well, so this is covered too. You are also completely right about the card-dis-advantage problem of this deck. Welding Tops is nice, but flimsy, like everything relying on Welder.
- You are right about CB, its very mana intense. It also stresses the manabase with UU cost. It might still be good, simply because it is so powerful.

Some possible changes to your list:
- Have you tried the 4th Mox Opal? While legendary, it is one of the most powerful cards in the deck / reasons to play this deck / benefits over other decks. With "new" legend rule redundant Moxens are also not that bad as before. They can also act as a enabler for Welder. A problem that arises more often than you think (you addition of Dack reflects that).
- Consider the 4th SDT. It is mana hungry, but insanely synergistic with the deck (e.g. Mox enabler, Welder draw engine) and an important way to smooth draws, as we don't have Ponder.

Future additions / cards to consider:
- Misdirection is a very powerful card, especially in the face of Abrupt Decay. Misdirecting removal is also card equality / slows down their clock. It also completely crushes BUG decks, as it is a house against Hymn and Ancestral besides AD. It is maybe also the closest replacement for Mental Misstep, as it allows the deck to keep its agility. A very important point in my opinion and sadly overlooked in some proposed lists.
- Welding Jar is also a card to consider. It is less versatile than Misdirection, but adds to the (free) artifact count, which can be important for some lists (I did run a Thoughtcast Painter list). It is also another way to handle AD. Spellskite does this as well, but it is very clunky, compared to the previous to cards.
- Izzet Charm is a very interesting cards for this deck. It made an appearance in the recent gp t8 reanimator list and could work similar in this deck. It enables Welder and most importantly kills DRS. The build in Spell Pierce mode is also very relevant, because our protection pre-painter is otherwise a bit thin. I like to not run too many Blast effects g1 and add them in different quantity, depending on the match up. I agree with your comment about Thoughtseize. It is versatile, but we have stronger options between Misdirection, Izzet Charm on top of Fow and Blast.

[That nice guy]

Hey, thanks for the detailed answers That nice guy! Some remarks:
- TA is only card disadvantage if it resolves and thus a way to make use of redundant effects. But you are right that FoW pitching does the same. TA tutoring for specific board cards is one advantage, but you solve it by having TA in the board as well, so this is covered too. You are also completely right about the card-dis-advantage problem of this deck. Welding Tops is nice, but flimsy, like everything relying on Welder.
- You are right about CB, its very mana intense. It also stresses the manabase with UU cost. It might still be good, simply because it is so powerful.

Yeah, it can be game-breaking when TA resolves and whatever you search up gets eaten by Decay. :mad:


Some possible changes to your list:
- Have you tried the 4th Mox Opal? While legendary, it is one of the most powerful cards in the deck / reasons to play this deck / benefits over other decks. With "new" legend rule redundant Moxens are also not that bad as before. They can also act as a enabler for Welder. A problem that arises more often than you think (you addition of Dack reflects that).

Awesome suggestion! I've been trying to figure out how to do this for a long time now. The problem is knowing what to cut and decisions like this take A LOT of testing. Currently on the chopping block are tomb and city. I just need more data to figure this out.


- Consider the 4th SDT. It is mana hungry, but insanely synergistic with the deck (e.g. Mox enabler, Welder draw engine) and an important way to smooth draws, as we don't have Ponder.

Must. ... Go. .... FASTER! Your points are valid, I'm just not ready to slow down the flow of haymakers and give my opponent time to breath.


Future additions / cards to consider:
- Misdirection is a very powerful card, especially in the face of Abrupt Decay. Misdirecting removal is also card equality / slows down their clock. It also completely crushes BUG decks, as it is a house against Hymn and Ancestral besides AD. It is maybe also the closest replacement for Mental Misstep, as it allows the deck to keep its agility. A very important point in my opinion and sadly overlooked in some proposed lists.

Misdirection is one of my all-time favorite cards. Another consideration for the SB that hasn't made the cut. In the main it's dead against some decks. And in the side it's just less valuable than other must-have options. This makes me truly sad.


- Welding Jar is also a card to consider. It is less versatile than Misdirection, but adds to the (free) artifact count, which can be important for some lists (I did run a Thoughtcast Painter list). It is also another way to handle AD. Spellskite does this as well, but it is very clunky, compared to the previous to cards.

I honestly never considered this. I turpentined so many of these to make vintage/cube mox proxies in my youth. I've been trying to jam thoughcast for a while now, and I think this is how it's done. So thank you for the suggestion. I don't really fear AD, I fear swords and Terminus, and this card does nothing against those. Still, it makes a 4Opal-Thoughtcast list viable which excites me. I will test for data.
The prior problem I had when trying thoughtcast was getting the right cards at the right time. :frown:


- Izzet Charm is a very interesting cards for this deck. It made an appearance in the recent gp t8 reanimator list and could work similar in this deck. It enables Welder and most importantly kills DRS. The build in Spell Pierce mode is also very relevant, because our protection pre-painter is otherwise a bit thin. I like to not run too many Blast effects g1 and add them in different quantity, depending on the match up. I agree with your comment about Thoughtseize. It is versatile, but we have stronger options between Misdirection, Izzet Charm on top of Fow and Blast.

Everyone always suggests this, but I still hold that having versatility is not worth having all the things it does be overcosted or watered down.



As I walk through the valley of the shadow of Wizards I shall fear no evil, for Red Blast is with me!
Red blast is the greatest most versatile answer anyone could ever want. Abrupt Decay? F you, REB targeting Delver! That'll buy me time. You can't misdirect, or welding Jar a counterbalance. And sometimes Izzet Charm is a bit mana intensive or late to the party. It's so hard to consider any card when you can run more vindicates that double as counterspells for 1 red mana.

[amppyou]

Hey, I'm the guy that got 11th at SCG New Jersey,


(2)


I agree! The problem is that I knew I was going into a heavy Death and Taxes/UW meta, and I was worried about MUD. This was purely an essential meta choice. I would not have done well without him. I stole 2 Jitte's, a Sword of Fire and ICE, 2 mox diamond (with bloodmoon out), I messed with top/counterbalance, he saved a lot of swings at my face, and I even stole a chalice on 1 which I turned into a 5/5 to block forever. He also made the 4 welder amazing all day during game 1s.




This was really good feedback. Although I see a good amount of counterbalance in my meta, I always anticipate to see a lot of tarmogoyf and tempo decks. I want to see what I can get out of 2 Baleful Strix in the main. Going to have to shave something for a 2nd underground sea or an opal.

[Fordin]

Hi guys, thanks so much for sharing your insights. I'm learning and still need to learn a lot so all your tips and comments are more than welcome. I was a little bit afraid tbat this thread was dying but it's good to see the life back in it :) I understand that my best bet is to just proxy the deck and play it and see what I do and learn from it, but I like theorising and soaking in knowledge before I have more time to do said playing. Sorry if I bore you.

From your comments I get that this deck is basically a slower combo deck than storm that can suddenly fire its combo once you acquire its pieces. You keep throwing stuff in their way that's either a faster route to winning so they have to deal with it or it lets you win (e.g. welder) or prevents them from winning (e.g. ensnaring bridge) so you have more time to set up your combo. And Tezz 2.0 is an alternate wincon against Emrakul and artifact/gy hate.
Should you play the combo asap or hold out until the turn before you think you'd die? Or is that dependent on your opponent, e.g. elves/infect win asap, control win when you think you can? I like playing control and combo, so that only makes this deck more interesting to me.

Question about pyro/REB: I thought from reading up about legacy and reb/pyro that reb was considered superior. Is pyro actually better in this deck?


You are also completely right about the card-dis-advantage problem of this deck. Welding Tops is nice, but flimsy, like everything relying on Welder.

If relying on welder is flimsy, does this mean that you intuition for your combopieces only if welder is active, and otherwise intuition for 3 of the same card to get 1 of a combo piece? And does this also mean that relying on welder and intuition to get a silver bullet like ensnaring bridge is also flimsy? Then I guess the TA's help finding it. Or is the point just to add another card that you could draw that helps extra in certain matchups?


Misdirection is one of my all-time favorite cards. Another consideration for the SB that hasn't made the cut. In the main it's dead against some decks. And in the side it's just less valuable than other must-have options. This makes me truly sad.
Same for me! I think any blue control player at heart loves misdirection. Against shardless: missdirect that AB or hymn, or even ancestral visions! Priceless.. it's sad if there are better options, but there have almost always been even back when I played more Magic :(

[Rampart]

Hi guys, thanks so much for sharing your insights. I'm learning and still need to learn a lot so all your tips and comments are more than welcome. I was a little bit afraid tbat this thread was dying but it's good to see the life back in it :) I understand that my best bet is to just proxy the deck and play it and see what I do and learn from it, but I like theorising and soaking in knowledge before I have more time to do said playing. Sorry if I bore you.

From your comments I get that this deck is basically a slower combo deck than storm that can suddenly fire its combo once you acquire its pieces. You keep throwing stuff in their way that's either a faster route to winning so they have to deal with it or it lets you win (e.g. welder) or prevents them from winning (e.g. ensnaring bridge) so you have more time to set up your combo. And Tezz 2.0 is an alternate wincon against Emrakul and artifact/gy hate.
Should you play the combo asap or hold out until the turn before you think you'd die? Or is that dependent on your opponent, e.g. elves/infect win asap, control win when you think you can? I like playing control and combo, so that only makes this deck more interesting to me.

Question about pyro/REB: I thought from reading up about legacy and reb/pyro that reb was considered superior. Is pyro actually better in this deck?



If relying on welder is flimsy, does this mean that you intuition for your combopieces only if welder is active, and otherwise intuition for 3 of the same card to get 1 of a combo piece? And does this also mean that relying on welder and intuition to get a silver bullet like ensnaring bridge is also flimsy? Then I guess the TA's help finding it. Or is the point just to add another card that you could draw that helps extra in certain matchups?


Same for me! I think any blue control player at heart loves misdirection. Against shardless: missdirect that AB or hymn, or even ancestral visions! Priceless.. it's sad if there are better options, but there have almost always been even back when I played more Magic :(

Play the deck, talking about it will not give you the same level of perspective or experience about what is good, what is not, what is important and what is not.

Painter is not really a slow combo deck. It can theoretically kill on turn one but with several combinations of opening hands it can kill on turn two. How many LED's you run main deck will change the level of explosiveness.

When and how you combo depends on a lot of different board states and matchups too, so breaking down those game states can be exhausting.

Tezz or any other planewalkers should fill multiple roles if you are to slot it in this deck. They should net you advantage and provide an alternate win condition that synergies with the core strategies. I think Tezz 2.0 does this well, but it make the mana kind of weird at times IMHO. Also Bridge is the alternate win con against Emerakul. And this is more of a fast combo/midrange deck then its a control deck

Pyroblast is in general better if you have bridge. Red Elemental Blast is better in general if you don't. Take that with a grain of salt because their are reasons why one is better then another. Pyroblast can be diverted or misdirected to anything which can create some nitch interactions which is also true for REB but can only hit stuff that is blue so sometimes it can't be moved to a spellskite. They are both modal so there is a lot of little strange things with that too.

About Welder. He augments the deck in a powerful way but is not something you can always depend on. If you have a clear path to intuition for the win on the next turn you should do that, but you should wait to cast the card in general until you have a clear plan on what you are trying to achieve with your board state. Intuiton is one of the hard skill testing cards in legacy and depending on how your deck is constructed (the whole 75) determines a lot of what you are asking.

TA and intuition fulfills different roles to some extent. TA is only really to combo or protect with bridge or spellskite. Intuition is basically a tutor for a win or any series of piles in your deck which can grind value, or protect you, or shut a game out with blood moon after board, or that blue guy who bounce creatures, or find extra land, or even a pile of blasts to get rid of a problematic permanents. Or anything thing you can imagine I would max out on intuition before I added TA. I do like TA a lot though.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Painter is my very first competitive deck when I was getting into Legacy 6-7 years ago and I'm super excited to build this and try it out.

[That nice guy]

So I picked up the deck last night to test some technology in a local tournament. On a positive note, I can not lose to UW.

The only match I lost was to Elves: He won the dice roll and comboed out turn two while I had my combo in hand.
Same thing happened again G2, only this time I went turn 1 artifact land -> grind stone -> Opal,

Turn two Painter -> hold REB in hand. Seems perfect, right?! He then cast two Natural order to end me. :mad:


The problem with the Elf match is I haven't figured out how to silver-bullet them. Whatever avenue I shut down with an artifact, they just choose another.
You get bridge -> they blow it up,
you jump through hoops for relic -> they agro/glimpse you out and your welders are shut down
you jump through hoops for Cursed totem -> they'll just tutor blow it, or they agro/glimpse you out and your welders are shut down
:frown:

Any ideas boys?

Maybe a 1of Engineered Plague? Crushes elves, comes in against Merfolk+Goblins+D&T, and it's hilarious to name Human against UW.
-Seems jank and there's no way to tutor it. Also relies a lot on black. Still dies to Abrupt Decay and Grip.

Maybe a 1of Torper Orb?
--Just ... bad

I was thinking I should test cutting some cards from my side for 2-3 Lion's Eye in the 75. Maybe the answer is to just be faster against a lot of decks?
--- 1 seems like plenty

Maybe side a tundra and some cannonists? It does hit all the decks that are faster than me without having to use Lion's eye. Also, boarding in a tundra doesn't seem bad against tempo.
---- Waste of space, probably. Natural order/GSZ will still be a beating.

I am open to suggestions.

[Rampart]

I have had a lot of luck in the matchup with sulfur elemental, surprising naming white with Painter is a combo, besides it working really well against death and taxes

[That nice guy]

I have had a lot of luck in the matchup with sulfur elemental, surprising naming white with Painter is a combo, besides it working really well against death and taxes

I used to board them and they were amazing. I cut them after Dack clinched my D&T match, but they were always awesome! IDK about a 2 card (anti-welder) combo against a deck as fast as Elves, but I guess if you don't have that you'll have other good stuff. Thank you for the suggestion and reminding me.

How is Sulfur against Monastery Mentor? is it worth bringing in, or is it just another thing to get eaten by terminous?

[Rampart]

I used to board them and they were amazing. I cut them after Dack clinched my D&T match, but they were always awesome! IDK about a 2 card (anti-welder) combo against a deck as fast as Elves, but I guess if you don't have that you'll have other good stuff. Thank you for the suggestion and reminding me.

How is Sulfur against Monastery Mentor? is it worth bringing in, or is it just another thing to get eaten by terminous?

Well if they are terminous-ing(?) they are losing Mentor as well otherwise its really good against mentor.

I'm not sure your ever going to lock down the elves matchup without really distorting what this deck does. To me is always feels a little slow in that matchup unless you get the nut hand and mill them on turn two or they stumble and you get them. To me I really like cards that do double duty in matchups and Sulfer kind of fits that bill but he can be a turn or two slow at times

[merfolkotpt]

I have been thinking about this deck a lot again. It does seem not terribly positioned, but to my mind the biggest issue is finding a way to interact with miracles, as they do have enough removal to make our welder/painter not good, and the back up plan of wurmcoil iffy. It seems to me that the best cards against that deck are probably planewalkers?

Should we be taking a plan from Imperial Painters playbook and jamming multiple Koths postboard? What about the black splash for Tezzeret, is that better? Also, should we be sideboarding hate for Mentors/tokens? Sulfur Elemental is the discussion above, but there is also (again with black splash) the option of illness in the ranks for tokens, or engineered plagues.

I think vs various Delver decks we are actually pretty well situated since Wurmcoil still feels very powerful in those MUs and white is not being played a ton in current lists.

Against storm I have always felt pretty good with Forces/Rebs and Flusters.

Sneak and Show is back to being the only SnT deck for the most part and ensnaring bridge helps to make that a pretty reasonable MU. Anyone else have thoughts?

[deadlock]

I have been thinking about this deck a lot again. It does seem not terribly positioned, but to my mind the biggest issue is finding a way to interact with miracles, as they do have enough removal to make our welder/painter not good, and the back up plan of wurmcoil iffy. It seems to me that the best cards against that deck are probably planewalkers?

Should we be taking a plan from Imperial Painters playbook and jamming multiple Koths postboard? What about the black splash for Tezzeret, is that better? Also, should we be sideboarding hate for Mentors/tokens? Sulfur Elemental is the discussion above, but there is also (again with black splash) the option of illness in the ranks for tokens, or engineered plagues.

I think vs various Delver decks we are actually pretty well situated since Wurmcoil still feels very powerful in those MUs and white is not being played a ton in current lists.

Against storm I have always felt pretty good with Forces/Rebs and Flusters.

Sneak and Show is back to being the only SnT deck for the most part and ensnaring bridge helps to make that a pretty reasonable MU. Anyone else have thoughts?

Welder is always good, because it is a must kill for 1 mana. While they gain more from delaying the game, we have mana acceleration to pump out stuff faster. black Tezz is the best PW for this deck if you run black. I also finished Miracles players with the oldschool Tezz ulti, but only after grinding down their hand.
Wurmcoil seems fine, but I think Batterskull is stronger for a couple of reasons. Its cheaper, it cannot be extracted by DRS and it can be recurred, so Terminus / STP just delays it. For both Skull and Wurm the Grim Monolith / Transmute artifact interaction has to be considered. In general I wouldn't advise to run Grim Monolith though.

On the Miracle matchup in general. First you have to decide on your strategy. Burst through with a fast combo attempt -> all-in approach or grind them down and out-control them (this is an atypical approach, but combo-control builds can pull it off). Ur Painter dominated with Mental Misstep, because it made the first route so hard to stop.

[merfolkotpt]

I feel like trying to just bust through typically is better, we have a bunch of counters to get our welder in under their CB and once that is in play it does work. Also, spellskite has always been good for me, it means that we mostly only care about terminus which we can use forces and flusters to keep from resolving.

Is there anything to playing swan song over fluster for the matchup with miracles since it is a hard counter?

[Jizz]

I also finished Miracles players with the oldschool Tezz ulti, but only after grinding down their hand.

I don't like Tezzeret versus Miracle post sb because we can't protect it. Unlike UB Tezz, we don't have Chalice to counter opposing Rebs, and this is not mentioning Mentor. I found this route quite difficult to follow. (I'm talking about 3 reb 3 snap lists, which are most common in europe).Taping out for Tezz also makes us vulnerable to CB.

[merfolkotpt]

I don't like Tezzeret versus Miracle post sb because we can't protect it. Unlike UB Tezz, we don't have Chalice to counter opposing Rebs, and this is not mentioning Mentor. I found this route quite difficult to follow. (I'm talking about 3 reb 3 snap lists, which are most common in europe).Taping out for Tezz also makes us vulnerable to CB.

What is your plan for that match up? I really don't remember this matchup being all the terrible, but that might have been due to less competent pilots of Miracles.

[Ish]

Tezz has a much easier matchup vs miracles than painter. Chalice, thopter / sword and tezz himself are incredibly hard for miracles to deal with.

Removal + counter spells / counterbalance against a linear combo (painter) will always be pretty tough to fight through.


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[merfolkotpt]

Tezz has a much easier matchup vs miracles than painter. Chalice, thopter / sword and tezz himself are incredibly hard for miracles to deal with.

Removal + counter spells / counterbalance against a linear combo (painter) will always be pretty tough to fight through.


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I wish we had access to some more durable threats, I was thinking about Ghirapur Aether Grid, but I am worried that is too slow, but something that is immune to 1) Pyroblast and 2) creature kill seems very strong. I like the idea of Koth, but it would take a massive restructuring of the Mana base. I also was thinking about New-est Chandra, just because it is relatively hard to deal with, and 6 mana is very doable in this deck.

[merfolkotpt]

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/387105#online

Did anyone see the above? Apparently UR painter (similar to Caleb Durward's old builds) top 4d the Legacy challenge last weekend online. Seems well positioned against Eldrazi, and Lands. Also, according to some folks I trust the miracles matchup isn't as bad as initially thought. I like the idea of trying to be as fast as possible in the current meta.

[keys]

The only problem I see with the list you linked is the weakness to Chalice=1. I would try to fit a couple Transmute Artifacts in the 75 as a way around this. Maybe instead of the Trinket Mage. This way you can also Transmute for Bridge (and Painter) if you need to.

[merfolkotpt]

The only problem I see with the list you linked is the weakness to Chalice=1. I would try to fit a couple Transmute Artifacts in the 75 as a way around this. Maybe instead of the Trinket Mage. This way you can also Transmute for Bridge (and Painter) if you need to.

I didn't think that list was necessarily the best list at the moment, just wanted to point out that the idea seems to be viable atm. I think our older lists are probably still better/more tweaked. I didn't like that mix of mana sources, and I still think we need a real back up plan, whether that be wurmcoil transmutes or planeswalker or something new, but I do think this is proof that it is a deck worth talking about.

I was dabbling with splashing black for strix/TezzAoB, but the old lists might be the best bet. In my experience it is VERY hard to beat current 4c delver iterations with the old version though.

[DireNTropy]

Went 4-1 in an MTGO League with the following list:

Mainboard

4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Force of Will
3x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Spell Pierce

2x Transmute Artifact
4x Painter's Servant
4x Grindstone
4x Goblin Welder
1x Relic of Progenitus

1x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Mox Opal

4x Scalding Tarn
3x Flooded Strand
2x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
1x Island
1x Mountain
4x Seat of the Synod
2x Ancient Tomb

Sideboard

4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Monastery Mentor
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Blood Moon
2x Ingot Chewer
1x Ancient Grudge

1-2 vs. Reanimator
2-0 vs. Miracles
2-0 vs. Eldrazi
2-0 vs. Shardless BUG
2-0 vs. Cabal Ritual Storm (I dislike the name 'Ad Nauseam Tendrils')

6-2 in games with traditional plan
3-0 in games with Monastery Mentor/Stoneforge Mystic


Round 1 - Reanimator
Game 1
My opponent starts by casting Careful Study, discarding an Iona and Inkwell Leviathan and I respond with a Top. I hold up Force of Will and set up a turn 3 Transmute Artifact for Relic of Progenitus and Pyroblast cantrips. I combo on turn 5. (Turn 5 win on the draw)

Game 2
I mulligan to 5 and cast Force of Will on a turn 1 Reanimate for Griselbrand (my hand is now Tundra, Goblin Welder, Goblin Welder). My opponent has the second Reanimate and I concede. (Turn 2 Loss on the draw)

Game 3
I lead with Top and my opponent starts with a Ponder. On turn 2 I cast Brainstorm and my opponent Exhumes a Griselbrand into play. (Turn 2 Loss on the play)


Round 2 - Miracles
Game 1
My opponent mulligans to 5 and plays a Flooded Strand. I decide to hold up Spell Pierce/Red Elemental Blast instead of casting Ponder. I Spell Pierce a Top on their turn and play my second land, a Lion's Eye Diamond, a Mox Opal, a Painter's Servant, and a Grindstone, leading to a concession. (Turn 2 Win on the draw)

Game 2 (Transform to Mentor/Stoneforge plan)
My opponent mulligans to 6. I keep a hand with Force of Will, Ponder, Top, and lands. I lead with a Top and Force of Will my opponent's Top. We both do nothing for a few turns, but with Top in play I am able to find and cast a Turn 4 Stoneforge Mystic finding a Batterskull. I Force of Will a Mentor and Pyroblast their Force of Will. My opponent is left with 1 card and I have none but a Batterskull in play. Top ensures my topdecks are stronger. (Turn 8 Win on the draw)


Round 3 - Eldrazi
Game 1
I lead with a turn 1 Goblin Welder. My opponent plays an Ancient Tomb and passes. I Ponder and play a Grindstone. My opponent plays a few eldrazi while I set up a Transmute Artifact on a Relic of Progenitus. This is a turn slower but allows me to play around Dismember with a Red Elemental Blast in hand. (Turn 5 Win on the draw)

Game 2 (Transform to Mentor/Stoneforge plan)
I mulligan to 6, keeping a hand with Stoneforge, Blood Moon, Batterskull, and Spell Pierce, and my opponent starts with a Leyline of the Void + Eldrazi Temple. Turn 3 shows an Eldrazi Displacer facing off against a Stoneforge Mystic. I Ponder for a third land drop and miss. My opponent plays a 3/3 Endless One and begins attacking. I topdeck a land and play a Goblin Welder and Batterskull. My opponent plays a Thought-Knot Seer and is forced to take Blood Moon. Jitte+Batterskull eventually win. (Turn 9 Win on the draw)


Round 4 - Shardless BUG
Game 1
I keep a hand of 2 Brainstorm, 1 Ponder, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Spell Pierce, and a Seat of the Synod. I start with a Ponder into more lands and my opponent suspends Ancestral Vision on turn 1. I pyroblast a Brainstorm and my opponent plays a Deathrite Shaman. I brainstorm into more counterspells and pyroblast Ancestral Vision. Eventually I find a Painter's Servant. My opponent plays a turn 8 Toxic Deluge, leading to an empty board and no cards in hand for either of us. However, Top allows me to reassemble my combo quickly, winning before the second Ancestral Vision can be cast (Turn 10 Win on the play).

Game 2 (Transform to Mentor/Stoneforge plan)
I keep a hand of Ponder, Jitte, Relic, and Ancient Grudge. Hymn takes Jitte and a land. We trade cantrips and I Ancient Grudge a Null Rod. My opponent casts a Turn 4 Shardless Agent into a Deathrite Shaman, while my hand is Spell Pierce + 2 lands. I topdeck a Monastery Mentor, and the next turn, cast it along with Brainstorm into Top, passing the turn with 3 tokens. My opponent casts Maelstrom Pulse on my Mentor but I have found 2 Tops and win 2 turns later with gigantic tokens. (Turn 7 Win on the draw)


Round 5 - Cabal Ritual Storm
Game 1
I lead with turn 1 Goblin Welder with Pyroblast and Transmute Artifact in hand. My opponent casts Gitaxian Probe and discards Transmute Artifact. I topdeck a Relic of Progenitus and Pyroblast a Brainstorm. My opponent casts a turn 3 Empty the Warrens for 10 goblins (cannot go for Past in Flames due to Relic). I topdeck a Top and Transmute it for a Painter's Servant and fail to pay. I weld in the Painter's Servant, blocking a goblin, and take 9 damage, going to 9. I find a Grindstone and block a goblin, going to 1. (Turn 6 win on the play)

Game 2
I keep a hand with a Goblin Welder, Grindstone, Painter's Servant, Top, and lands. My opponent plays a Ponder and I topdeck a Relic of Progenitus. My opponent discards a Painter's Servant. I topdeck a Mox Opal and play Goblin Welder and Relic of Progenitus, forcing my opponent to attempt to win this turn. My opponent plays a Lion's Eye Diamond and a Cabal Ritual; in response activating the Lion's Eye Diamond, discarding a Past in Flames. I decide not to activate Relic in response as they have 1 blue mana, 1 Ponder in the graveyard and 6 non-blue mana. They must find exactly Ad Nauseam to have a chance to win. I take the risk (I would exile my own Painter's Servant if I activated Relic) and am rewarded. (Turn 3 win on the draw)


Notes
-Relic of Progenitus overperformed, letting me steal a game against Reanimator, 2 games against Storm, and severely hindering an opponent's Deathrite Shaman.
-Sensei's Divining Top won every game that lasted more than 4 turns and some of the fast games as well.
-Transmute Artifact has felt stronger than Intuition.
-This deck is a very strong Monastery Mentor deck with Mox Opals and a playset of Sensei's Divining Tops.
-I have tried the Monastery Mentor sideboard in Doomsday, Tin Fins, and Painter's Servant. This deck trades the nice synergy with Cabal Therapy with the ability to defend Mentor with counterspells.

[merfolkotpt]

Oh man the mentor sideboard seems sweet, nice idea!

You said you felt like intuition felt less awesome than transmute, did that make welder seem less good? I feel like most of welder's power comes from making intuition into an I win card with an artifact in play? Also, since you aren't running Wurmcoils to go with Transmute, I can understand not wanting as much mana, but are you no longer interested in Grim Monolith at all, or at the least more copies of LED, I feel like those really increase your chances of winning faster, but I can see with ponder that you might not be as interested in winning quickly as much of the time.

Either way, nice result, I think this is a cool version of the list, and wish you good luck on the development.

Additional question:
Do you think Mentor helps the Delver MU, thinking about it and it seems reasonable, that is always my worst MU (especially in the form of 4c Delver).

[DireNTropy]

Thanks for the feedback!

I think Welder is still very strong even with Transmute Artifact instead of Intuition. The advantages and disadvantages of Transmute Artifact to Intuition are (in my opinion):

Advantage:
-Gets around Chalice at 1 (Intuition needs a Welder in play)
-Is faster and is less susceptible to taxing counters
-More efficient (saves 1-2 mana)
-Better without Welder
-Can tutor up Relic of Progenitus/Lion's Eye Diamond as a 1-of in the deck

Disadvantage:
-Card Disadvantage
-Not as strong with Welder
-Double blue requirement

This is definitely a more controlling build of Painter, which fits well with the Mentor sideboard plan, so I am less interested in fast mana like Grim Monolith and Lion's Eye Diamond. Stoneforge Mystics and Monastery Mentors fill the role Wurmcoil Engine used to while being much more resilient. The deck can still combo on turn 3-4 with consistency; many of the longer non-Mentor games were due to prioritizing interaction with the opponent rather than going for the combo.

Monastery Mentor is great against Delver! Their only evasive threat is countered by the 5 red elemental blast/pyroblasts and Mentor matches up well against their other threats. Batterskull helps stabilize the board very well.

I will probably replace Relic of Progenitus with a Nihil Spellbomb as there were many times I wanted to recur it (unlike Nihil Spellbomb, Relic is exiled when used).

[RingoDeathStarr]

Could some people who play this deck post their current lists? I've been messing around with this a bit, but lists from the last year or so are pretty few and hard to come by, and I'm curious where people are settling now with Eldrazi in and Dig gone. Thanks so much!

[Takkles]

I've been messing around with this list and it has been surprising me a lot. I'm mainly a miracles player nowadays, but I originally played Painter before Miracles was a thing, and fell in love all over again with Painter when I "came up" with this. It's kind of a mix of all the different painter decks over the last 7 or so months. Opinions?

4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
1 Trinket Mage
2 Imperial Recruiter

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Blood Moon

4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge

2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Great Furnace
1 Plateau
1 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Flooded Strand

SB:
2 Spellskite
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Counterbalance
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Misdirection

It gives you so many useful things to do with its fast mana if you're not holding the combo.

[Mapson]

I've been messing around with this list and it has been surprising me a lot. I'm mainly a miracles player nowadays, but I originally played Painter before Miracles was a thing, and fell in love all over again with Painter when I "came up" with this. It's kind of a mix of all the different painter decks over the last 7 or so months. Opinions?

4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
1 Trinket Mage
2 Imperial Recruiter

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Blood Moon

4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge

2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Great Furnace
1 Plateau
1 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Flooded Strand

SB:
2 Spellskite
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Counterbalance
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Misdirection

It gives you so many useful things to do with its fast mana if you're not holding the combo.

I think you're trying to do too much. When I played thasur version of the deck (typically play RW) I really enjoyed the speed. When you include jace and bridge it really feels like you're trying to play a slightly longer game. Led with jace also feels like a giant nonbo. Also cutting the intuition feels really wrong as it plus welder won me most games.

[Takkles]

I think you're trying to do too much. When I played thasur version of the deck (typically play RW) I really enjoyed the speed. When you include jace and bridge it really feels like you're trying to play a slightly longer game. Led with jace also feels like a giant nonbo. Also cutting the intuition feels really wrong as it plus welder won me most games.
I mean it still has the very fast wins, but also dropping turn 1/2 Jace followed by Blood Moon, or turn 1/2 moon into turn 2/3 Jace are also pretty much GG. I just love the options it gives. The SB is still going through a lot of changes, but I do like having CB in the board as an option. I'd say give it a try before judging the look too much.

I've mostly been playing against Shardless/ANT/Eldrazi/Delver, so maybe they're just kinda good for this type of build.

[merfolkotpt]

I am playing a slightly modified version of the white sideboard list from the previous page, and so far testing has been awesome, it answers a lot of questions from previous builds, makes a ton of matchups better, and still beats up on eldrazi. I am considering testing some enlightened tutors but haven't broken them out yet.

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Intuition

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 3 Monastery Mentor
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

[keys]

UR Painter placed 2nd at the SCG Super IQ:

4 Painter's Servant
1 Spellskite
4 Goblin Welder
4 Dack Fayden
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Grindstone
2 Liquimetal Coating
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
3 Mox Opal
2 Ponder
2 Transmute Artifact
2 Great Furnace
2 Seat of the Synod
2 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
2 Blood Moon
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Anyone have much experience with the 4 Dack 2 Liquimetal package? Strong or too cute? No intuition, but 2 Transmute and 1 Tezz.

[DireNTropy]

Went 4-0 in a weekly legacy event (8-0 in games!) with the URw decklist on the last page (4 ponder + 4 top maindeck, 4 mentor in sideboard):

2-0 vs. Reanimator
2-0 vs. Enchantress
2-0 vs. Shardless BUG
2-0 vs. Miracles

6-0 in games with traditional plan
2-0 in games with Monastery Mentor/Stoneforge Mystic


Round 1 - Reanimator
Game 1
I draw my one-of Nihil Spellbomb and am able to assemble the combo.

Game 2
My opponent mulligans to 5 and I take 5+ turns against an opponent who did not play a single permanent.


Round 2 - Enchantress
Game 1
Turn 4 Intuition with Goblin Welder in play.

Game 2
I red elemental blast a Stony Silence for the win on turn 4.

Round 3 - Shardless BUG
Game 1
My opponent shreds my hand, but I am able to use Goblin Welder to swap a Grindstone for a Painter's Servant with the ability on the stack.

Game 2 (Transform to Mentor/Stoneforge plan)
1 Mentor > 2 Deathrite Shaman, 2 Shardless Agent, 1 Liliana
I also Misdirected an Ancestral Vision

Round 4 - Miracles
Game 1
On the draw, I decide to hold up Spell Pierce instead of Ponder or Sensei's Divining Top and am rewarded by countering a Counterbalance. I am able to assemble the combo through a Counterspell, Swords to Plowshares, and Terminus.

Game 2 (Transform to Mentor/Stoneforge plan)
My opponent plays a Mentor first, but my Mentor has more cantrip support. I also find a second Mentor and an Umezawa's Jitte.


Notes
-Tried a 2/2 split between Misdirection and Force of Will. I was able to misdirect an ancestral vision. I am content.
-Spell pierce is awesome. I may play a third one (swapping out a pyroblast), as it protects against many of our most-hated cards (Liliana, Chalice, Hymn)
-On the draw against Miracles I will almost always hold up spell pierce or pyroblast over playing a cantrip or top.
-I don't have a second Tundra in real life, so I substituted in a Plateau.
-I played a split of 1 Transmute Artifact and 1 Intuition and was happy with the configuration.

[GradStudent]

Have you thought of going nahiri and emrakul sb??


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[DireNTropy]

Have you thought of going nahiri and emrakul sb??


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I am assuming that this plan would be in addition to Monastery Mentors (otherwise we would lack the board presence to protect Nahiri).

The easiest comparison to make would be to Jace as both are planeswalkers at 4 mana.
Pros for Jace
-Jace is easier to cast as double blue is usually easier to obtain than white and red, at least in the cantrip-heavy version
-In general Jace produces more value with Brainstorm compared to the looting effect from Nahiri (actual card advantage)
-Better with Monastery Mentor (see above)
-Emrakul is a dead card in a majority of board states
-Pitches to Force of Will

Pros for Nahiri
-Nahiri reaches ultimate faster (3 turns)
-Ability to remove enchantments and artifacts is more versatile
-Immune to Pyroblast (these will almost always be boarded in against us)

Neutral
-Bouncing a creature may be more reliable than removing a tapped one, but is a temporary solution

From this quick analysis I would think that Jace is a better planeswalker to run (the bar is set quite high of course).

Also, I have tried 2 Jace in the sideboard to complement the Monastery Mentor plan, and they have really overperformed. We can get to 4 mana very quickly with a combination of Mox Opal and Ancient Tombs.

[Jizz]

emrakul allows to fetch spellbomb against emrakul decks with welder. Add that in Pros :)

[Cambriel]

Emrakul seems like a huge nonbo with Bridge, which is one of the most important early game cards we have. You can weld it away or something, but I'm not convinced that's the way to go. Everyone seems to be trying to jam Nahiri/Emrakul into lists now that Lossett streamed a few games with it in Miracles.

[Svyelunite]

For those who are interested in these types of things :wink:

New episode of Legacy's Allure! Joining the cast is Michael "Hollywood" Keller. We talk about prison strategies and the crazy scarecrow from Eventide that made Painter-Stone an archetype. Check it out!

Webcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9H5ZHO2tWc
Podcast: https://archive.org/details/LegacysAllureEp.9PainterWithMichaelKeller

[amppyou]

I know this thread has dried up, but I've been playing U/R/b painter for the last 4 weeks and thought I'd see if anyone else is doing work with welders.

For reference, I'm playing the list which member, @thatniceguy, top 16'd with last November. Only changes are -2 Dack Faydens, -1 Nihil Spellbomb and +2 Izzet Charm +1 Tormod's Crypt.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=95717

I've had to shake off some rust - last time I played the deck was 2011. That said, each week has gotten better and better for me. Record for the last 4 weeks has been 1-2 drop, 1-2 drop, 2-1 ID, 3-0 ID. The tournaments at my LGS don't fire until 7:25 PM so I usually only get 3 matches in before I have to head home for work the following morning.

I can't really say whether or not the deck is well positioned at the moment. I play the deck because I love it, it's fun to play, and I believe that it rewards mastery. I think the mastery comment is evidenced by the various builds of U/R painter that have been successful in the hands of different pilots. This deck is powerful, but a skilled pilot is going to understand the many many lines that are available in any given situation.

Anyway, my observations... Dack is just not right for my meta. I don't see enough D&T to make his -2 live. For the reason, I wanted to test 2 Izzet Charms. The last two weeks have not provided enough data for me to make a call. What I do know is that the mana always feels fine, so the card is definitely live. I think it will come down to how well Izzet Charm performs against Delver decks. If it doesn't work out, the next card I'm going to test for that slot is Spell Pierce, and after that Transmute Artifact.

I think Tormod's Crypt has an edge over Nihil Spellbomb because you can tap out on turn 3 or 4 for Tezz and drop it straight into play (this was relevant in a reanimator match I had on Tuesday). The matchups where you desperately need gy hate, you're going to need it fast. I found that in the matchups where I didn't need gy hate, there were always more important things for me to be doing with my mana.

So far I have not fired off Tezz AoB's ultimate at all. Where he really shines is acting as pseudo-Ensnaring Bridges by making 5/5's that certain decks just can't afford to swing into. He has dug into the missing kill card in 2 matches, so his + ability has been great. In all honesty, I don't know that we'll ever shoot the moon with 10 artifacts. @thatniceguy points out, correctly I believe, that Tezz AoB is really just another haymaker in a string of them. He just piles onto the goodness. It's also important that the deck is able to shift gears if push comes to shove.

I missed the long period in this deck's existence when Transmute Artifact and Wurmcoil Engine were the norm, but I personally just like Tezz AoB. He synergizes with our other game plan well and provides the deck with even more lines. Wurmcoil is very linear in what it does. Maybe I just don't play against enough Delver at my LGS, though.

Anyway, thanks to anyone who read through that. I'll continue slinging pyroblasts and activating Grindstone on myself for surprise victories. Hope I'm not the only one!

[Mapson]

Just took this deck to an event in Maryland hoping to win a black lotus.

I didn't win but had a good run nevertheless.

List:
Land (21)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Great Furnace
1x Island
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Seat of the Synod
1x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island

Instant (17)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Intuition
1x Misdirection
3x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast

Artifact (14)
4x Grindstone
2x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Mox Opal
4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Tormod's Crypt

Creature (8)
4x Goblin Welder
4x Painter's Servant

Sideboard
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Blood Moon
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Flusterstorm
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Transmute Artifact
2x Wurmcoil Engine


Rd 1 - Loam - loss: 1-2
Rd 2 - Shardless - win - 2-1
Rd 3 - Shardless - win - 2-0
Rd4 - Death & Taxes - 2-0
Rd 5 - U/B Eldrazi - 2-0
Rd 6 - Colorless Eldraazi - 2-0
RD 7 - ID into top 8

Top 8 - Lose to Burn

may or may not write a full write up later but I don't think the games were overly interesting>

Ancient Grudge was my MVP of the day. I brought it in every round of swiss. List felt very good other than the Tormod's Crypt in the main. Used 13/15 sideboard cards. The man deck crypt would be better as a transmute but didn't want to lose to any sneak/omni decks. Would gladly answer any questions

[amppyou]

Just took this deck to an event in Maryland hoping to win a black lotus.

I didn't win but had a good run nevertheless.

List:
Land (21)
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Great Furnace
1x Island
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Seat of the Synod
1x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island

Instant (17)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Intuition
1x Misdirection
3x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast

Artifact (14)
4x Grindstone
2x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Mox Opal
4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Tormod's Crypt

Creature (8)
4x Goblin Welder
4x Painter's Servant

Sideboard
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Blood Moon
3x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Flusterstorm
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Transmute Artifact
2x Wurmcoil Engine


Rd 1 - Loam - loss: 1-2
Rd 2 - Shardless - win - 2-1
Rd 3 - Shardless - win - 2-0
Rd4 - Death & Taxes - 2-0
Rd 5 - U/B Eldrazi - 2-0
Rd 6 - Colorless Eldraazi - 2-0
RD 7 - ID into top 8

Top 8 - Lose to Burn

may or may not write a full write up later but I don't think the games were overly interesting>

Ancient Grudge was my MVP of the day. I brought it in every round of swiss. List felt very good other than the Tormod's Crypt in the main. Used 13/15 sideboard cards. The man deck crypt would be better as a transmute but didn't want to lose to any sneak/omni decks. Would gladly answer any questions

Hey Mapson, congrats on the top 8. I used to run a similar build before I started splashing black for Tezz. It's great to see that your list putting up solid results against Eldrazi. I especially like the Ancient Grudge tech. I'd recently started trying Ingot Chewer in my side, but I haven't seen it in games.

I was wondering how the one of Misdirection performed. Also, if you could give your thoughts on the 2 of LED. Did they power you into a fair number of quick wins?

Bummer that you got matched up vs. Burn in the top 8.

[Mapson]

Hey Mapson, congrats on the top 8. I used to run a similar build before I started splashing black for Tezz. It's great to see that your list putting up solid results against Eldrazi. I especially like the Ancient Grudge tech. I'd recently started trying Ingot Chewer in my side, but I haven't seen it in games.

I was wondering how the one of Misdirection performed. Also, if you could give your thoughts on the 2 of LED. Did they power you into a fair number of quick wins?

Bummer that you got matched up vs. Burn in the top 8.

Thanks. The eldrazi matchups were kind of interesting but I felt felt solid about them. i was going to play ingot chewer as I wanted artifact removal that wasn't 1 cmc but I felt that it was too hard to consistently find ingot chewer through a chalice, and the upside of it being a creature is barely an upside since I really didn't have a backup beatdown plan. Would definitely recommend the grudges though. The misdirection was great. I hit two hymns and an abrupt decays. Plus when testng the deck there was a turn where I had painter out and pyroblasted a drs. In response they pyrblased my painter, in response I was able to misdirect that pyroblast to their needle to hit everything I wanted.SO that was pretty sweet. Two LED felt great. Last time I played the deck in an event I only used one and was generally pretty happy but two really felt like the sweet spot. it facilitated so many free wins and I think being able to intuition for two of them was usually very good. I know some lists play three. I'm not sure if that's correct because sometimes it doesn't do anything, and I was certainly willing to cut it in certain matchups but i was very happy with two. (this might be biased because the deck did well for me, but I'd like to think it did well for a reason.)

[Mapson]

posted a quick writeup after all http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31040-Top-8-at-Battle-for-Black-lotus&p=971356#post971356

[CovenantElite30]

posted a quick writeup after all http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31040-Top-8-at-Battle-for-Black-lotus&p=971356#post971356

I stated play RW version of this deck and am considering trying out the UR version (mostly because I don't have Imperial Recruitors in paper).

You've seem to had a good amount of success with the deck. How has your build been doing for your lately? Are then any changes you would make to your current build?

[Mapson]

I stated play RW version of this deck and am considering trying out the UR version (mostly because I don't have Imperial Recruitors in paper).

You've seem to had a good amount of success with the deck. How has your build been doing for your lately? Are then any changes you would make to your current build?

So, I haven't really had the opportunity to play much since then. I should be taking it to an event this weekend though and I'll definitely let you know how that goes. As far as changes I would make, there's only two changes I would really consider to the main. Swapping the md crypt out for a transmute would be ok but I don't like the thought of not being able to beat show and tell decks g1. It's also reasonable that the 4th intuition could be shaved, not everyone likes that package anyways though I found it amazing. The format hasn't really changed very much so I wouldn't make any other changes unless I could find a way to slant the grixis delver mu a bit more in our favor as in testing that was the roughest one. Sudden shocks would possibly help as deathrite was the really problematic card. That being said, I'm not sure what would be a reasonable cut for them, this might sound crazy but blood moon is likely the best option but I don't think it's worth the swap. Anyway, those are my thoughts for now but I should have more to say at the start of next week

[Baum]

I've been testing a Grixis build similar to That nice guy's for two weeks now. I've never played Painter before, but I love Tezzeret, AoB and this deck hits the sweet spot between durdling like Tezzerator and a quick combo finish. ;)

Right now I'm trying out a lot of stuff, like MD Transmute Artifact, only 3 Intuition and a rather controlling SB with lots of removal. I also cut the Blood Moons. Without having access to real board clears, I don't like the card against Eldrazi or Grixis Delver (I played a lot of Miracles, where Moon + Sweeper wins on the spot but Blood Moon alone often does nothing). Against Lands I feel that I don't have to lock them out and prefer to focus on the combo.


4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Dack Fayden
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Intuition
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Force of Will
2 Pyroblast
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Mox Opal
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors


Sideboard:

3 Flusterstorm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ghirapur Aether Grid
2 Pyroclasm
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle


What I'm not sure about is how to approach the Shardless BUG and Grixis Delver matchups. I don't need a complete SB guide but rather some advice in terms of "Who's the Beatdown?"

Against Shardless: Should I go all-in on the combo or should I try a more grindy approach? Against Jund, I realized that they have way too much removal and threats to handle. As a result I just go YOLO mode, try to jam the combo ASAP and mulligan slow hands away. But what to do against Shardless? They have less removal and less relevant threats, so the Tezzeret backup plan looks good. If I try to grind, upping the Redblast count against Ancestral Vision and Jace seems good. Would you side out some Forces? Decay can't be countered anyway, so Llliana seems to be the only relevant target. Do I miss anything that has to be forced?

I face similar issues against Grixis Delver. Should I rather focus on containing their threats with Blasts, Pyroclasm and Aether Grid and then win sometime later? On the other hand, I could try to combo quickly with FOW and Flusterstorm backup. I had mixed results with the control plan when I didn't have Pyroclasm in the board. I have not tested the matchup with the new SB. What does work best for you guys? Is playing control against them a losing battle?

[Mapson]

What I'm not sure about is how to approach the Shardless BUG and Grixis Delver matchups. I don't need a complete SB guide but rather some advice in terms of "Who's the Beatdown?"

Against Shardless: Should I go all-in on the combo or should I try a more grindy approach? Against Jund, I realized that they have way too much removal and threats to handle. As a result I just go YOLO mode, try to jam the combo ASAP and mulligan slow hands away. But what to do against Shardless? They have less removal and less relevant threats, so the Tezzeret backup plan looks good. If I try to grind, upping the Redblast count against Ancestral Vision and Jace seems good. Would you side out some Forces? Decay can't be countered anyway, so Llliana seems to be the only relevant target. Do I miss anything that has to be forced?

I face similar issues against Grixis Delver. Should I rather focus on containing their threats with Blasts, Pyroclasm and Aether Grid and then win sometime later? On the other hand, I could try to combo quickly with FOW and Flusterstorm backup. I had mixed results with the control plan when I didn't have Pyroclasm in the board. I have not tested the matchup with the new SB. What does work best for you guys? Is playing control against them a losing battle?


Going all in on the combo is dangerous because they typically have surgical extraction. That being said I think this deck is the "beatdown' in basically every matchup that doesn't involve show and tell or tendrils

[chaosjace]

Have any of you played both this and mono red? I played a black blue version several years ago, I sleeved up mono red because I like the combo, but I am here because I like control with combo finishers.
My old list was something like
4x painter servant
4x grindstone
4x force of will
4x sensei's divining top
4x counterbalance
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x daze
4x thoughtseize
4x trinket Mage
4x polluted delta
4x underground sea
Some set up of islands and swamps

I llike the idea of turn 2 or 3 JTMS but I really just want to mill people

Tl dr my meta is a lot of combo, should I try to fight their combo or try to combo faster

[Mapson]

Have any of you played both this and mono red? I played a black blue version several years ago, I sleeved up mono red because I like the combo, but I am here because I like control with combo finishers.

I llike the idea of turn 2 or 3 JTMS but I really just want to mill people

Tl dr my meta is a lot of combo, should I try to fight their combo or try to combo faster

I play both. I would try to just combo faster. I haven't tried the counterbalance package in this deck but I feel like its too do nothing for what the deck wants to be doing. Counterbalance doesn't even seem great in the general metagame right now either. A lot of miracles players have cut the 4th one.

[mulder]

Has anyone ever tried Inventor's Fair? It seems like it's worth trying, since early game it's a land that produces colorless mana and gains you a life each turn, mid and late game it finds one of your combo pieces.

[amppyou]

Has anyone ever tried Inventor's Fair? It seems like it's worth trying, since early game it's a land that produces colorless mana and gains you a life each turn, mid and late game it finds one of your combo pieces.

I'd up my artifact land count before playing Inventors' Fair. A new store in my area should be hosting Legacy on Mondays starting either this upcoming week or the next. I'm looking forward to getting games in and discussing the deck.

I'm also currently looking into building this deck on MTGO. It's not as bad as some decks, but I still feel shitty having to reacquire things that I already own IRL :frown:

[merfolkotpt]

Saw this list in 18th place at the SCG legacy this weekend.

//Creatures
2 Baleful Strix
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant

//Planeswalkers
2 Dack Fayden
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

//Mana
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Great Furnace
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Mox Opal
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Underground Sea
1 Vault of Whispers
2 Volcanic Island

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Pyroblast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Smuggler's Copter

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
SB: 1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ghirapur Æther Grid
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Spellskite
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction


Sort of a mashup between tezzeret control and painter. Looks sort of sweet. Could maybe even include counterbalance. Don't know if the person who played it is a Source guy, but if so, would love to hear some thoughts on how the list played out.

[CptHaddock]

Those smuggler's copters look absolutely adorable.

[Hisa]

That list is mine.


I'll do a quick overview, then matches, then a card by card and some thoughts about moving forward.


So the shpiel is this: I have played a lot of Canadian and it was my default tournament deck for a long time. After BFZ I decided I was tired of having to work so hard for wins against Miracles and DnT only to be paired against Aliens, which is a 20%-80% matchup against, so I started look for decks that tickled me. In addition to the Fun Police I've played a lot of combo, and I think that there is a lot to be said for winning outside of the combat step at the moment, and I ended up here. I picked out a list and went into the EE at the beginning of the Summer cold and got destroyed. I did not win one game in the 5 rounds before I dropped. But, what I was trying to do was the coolest shit ever, so I build it on MTGO and started tweaking it (Shameless Plug: I try to stream on Thursday nights and I'm often playing this deck. twitch.tv/bhisa). For me, this is a welder deck at heart, and a lot of it developed from there. The main reason I like this deck is because it's so hard to disrupt. It attacks from many different angles and shifts between those with agility, which makes it very hard to play against.

SCG Baltimore:

600ish Players? Something like that. This is from memory, apologies for the vagueness.

R1 v Thomas Brown on Agroloam

I grind him right quick game one. Game two I lose to Marit Lage from a Knight after he draws one of the pieces. I think if it takes him two turns of Knight to set up I can find a bridge to stabilize until I can get something going. Game three I have a Welder, a Nihil Spellbomb and an Aether Grid and he has no chance.
W2-1

R2 v James Buckingham on Grixis Dilbert

I get the good start game one (artifact land, Mox Opal, Top) and combo him quickly. G2 I end up taking a bunch of damage from Ancient Tombs and get waste / dazed out of the game. G3 grinds. He keeps my painters off the field and I'm getting card advantage with my Tezz, etc. I manual him out in turns. I have to make a decision about taking the guaranteed draw, or going to 2 of a Tomb and opening myself up to Bolt and lose to deck him in time. He takes the decision away from me and scoops before I tap mana.
W2-1

R3 v Kyle Kurz on RG Lands

Game one I misplay and attack with a Welder on t1 instead of leaving it back to fuck with his Mox Diamond if he mills an artifact off the Loam dredge. He does, I curse myself, he Marit Lages me turn 3. G2 I have his Molten Vortex locked out with a Revoker, I have an Island and an Opal with a Blood Moon in hand. Over the next seven turns I proceed to attack him to 5 with my Revoker, not draw a third mana source to cast the Blood Moon. On turn 8 he finds the Punishing Fire and the game ends. Run bads on both our parts, I guess.
L0-2

R4 v Aaron Sorrells on Eldrazi

I lose the roll, he goes Eye, 2/2 Endless One. I play land top. He plays Cavern Matter Reshaper. I play land Painter. He plays Temple Reality Smasher. I ask him how he's paying for the Smasher, then proceed to explain to him why it doesn't work. I grind him out shortly. SCG says I lost g2, though I don't remember it. G3 he lands an early chalice. This deck is really good against chalice, 'cause Welder and Tezz and people are awful at remembering their chalice triggers. I get like three spells through his chalice and hide behind a Bridge and Tezz ult him out of the game. Honestly the Eldrazi match is one of the reasons I went with the deck
W2-1

R5 v Chris Minor on Loam?

I honest to god remember nothing about this match other than getting him to 1 life with a copter before grinding him out in one of the games.
W2-0

R6 v Eric Hymel on Infect

I hadn't played against Infect with this deck at all. The match seems really good, though. They have no way to interact with you g1 so you get to use all of your disruption proactively. Heirarched 1/1s don't put enough of a clock on you to make comboing hard. After board you get a ton of good spells, including Spellskite.
W2-0

R7 v Todd Stevens on Infect

This match goes pretty much exactly the same way the one before it did. We got deck checked and had a nice long chat. Nice guy who apparently streams.
W2-0

R8 v David Malafarina on Nic Fit

This guy and this match were super fun. G1 he plays veteran explorer. I grind him out t4ish. G2 was awesome. I was way ahead. He Deeds away my whole board (including the artifact land, uch). He's attacking me with a Rhino. I draw Daretti and start throwing the Jeromes at his stuff. I stabilize at 1, with a Tezzeret at 4 and a (non-lethal) bunch of artifacts on the table. I decide I need to keep the Tezz on the table to win, so I decide to wait and try to fade a GSZ or a Rhino for one turn. I pass and he draws, taps his mana and says "Green Sun's for 4?". G3 I am way ahead, with a Chandra and some artifacts that do stuff. I was at a high life total, decide to kill DRS anyways (mistake), He untaps and slams Meren of Clan Nel Toth. In the following seven turns I proceed to get Qasali Pridemaged 7 times, but not before an exalted Meren destroys all of my planeswalkers. It was so brutal they would not have shown it on cable TV.
L1-2

R9 v Cassidy Delcourt on Fish

Honest to goodness Merfolk in the x-2 bracket at the end of Day One. I am impressed. G1 I grind her our pretty quickly. G2 I'm forced into a position where I can't play around daze, I go for it, she has the daze. G3 grinds on. I'm hiding behind a bridge, she has a chalice on 1, and a needles on Tezz. She wastes my Inventors Fair after it gains me 5 or so life. I eventually find a Grudge, she forces. I find Aether Grid. I find the Opal to flash it back to play the grindstone in my hand and win a turn before I would have killed her with the Grid. She forces again, draws and concedes. She had a one of Echoing Truth as an out. I would have lost for sure. Props for being far and away the best person at remembering Chalice triggers that I played in the whole tournament.
W2-1

Finished Day One at 7-2, I felt great. The deck was gelling, I was gelling, all Zen all the time. No hard feelings about either of my losses.

DAY TWO

R 10 v Michael Reed on ANT

Really enjoyable opponent. It takes me an embarrassingly long to to figure out that he's not playing Grixis Dilbert (like three ponders later) and I start using my blasts on his cantrips. I lose. G2 I Blast and Fluster his first two cantrips and then I grind him out. G3, He's stuck on a swamp and I'm stuck on 2 lands. I have a painter out, he Dark Rituals, I blast. So satisfying. I eventually play a top, he decides he has to go for it, double LEDs and discards his hand including a Past in Flames. I REB his past inflames and he extends the hand. Decks that can combo faster than you are hard, and I'd way rather play against ANT than TES.
W2-1

R11 v Christopher Stagno on Chaos Elves

Elves is not quite as good as Infect, but they are also lacking in ways to interact with you. I grind fast game 1, G2 I draw Aether Grid a turn to late to deal with his DRS before it becomes unsummoning sick, and he kills me with it the following turn. G3, he plays stuff that doesn't matter, and I grind him out.
W2-1

R12 v Matthew Tickal on Miracles

Apparently this guy grinds. I asked him to remind me of his name after the match, he says "I'm Matt Tickal. I'm 24th on the Leaderboard. [[I'm a big deal]]" All I can say is apparently being good at creature math in Standard doesn't translate well into Legacy. He played incredibly sloppy, missed three or 4 Counterbalance triggers, played a JTMS and brainstormed while I had an Aether Grid, two open artifacts and an Chandra on the board. Four mana planeswalkers were all stars in this match. The same Copter traded with Vendilion Clique twice and drew a Spell Pierce in G2.

W2-1

R13 v Jim Davis on BUG Dilbert

I thought he was on Miracles, don't ask me why. G1 I get delvered out, ending the game with 1 mana source on the table. I kept a hand I would not have kept in the dark and certainly would not have kept against Delver. G2 I keep a wasteland resistant 2 mana source hand and never find the third land, and lose to the taxing counters.
L0-2

R14 v Matthew Long on Eldrazi

Lose the die roll, get kilt by giant monsters a turn or two before I can combo. G2 He has Chalice on 1, Chalice on 2 and Needle on Grindsone and a Mimic that can't attack through my Painter. I kill a TKS through a chalice because he's bad at triggers. He scoops to Tezz. G3 He muls to 6 and keeps I mul to 6 and see a hand of Top, Top, Brainstorm, Pyroblast, Baleful Strix and Vault of Whispers. I stare at the hand for like 2 minutes, before I decide to muligan. I'm still not sure that that was the correct decision. The game progresses, I play a t2 painter. On his turn he taps his two temples and his cavern and says "Endless one for 5". I say "Do you mean for 3?" and, as we've already gone over this with a judge he says "yeah yeah, 3". A turn or two later passes with a mimic and a 3/3 Endless one with me at six life. I top EoT and see LED, bridge and a Top. I draw the LED, spin to try and find a grindstone, don't see it. I pass and concede to his TKS. I completely missed the flip top - crack LED - play bridge line I had on my turn. He tells me after that he was cold to bridge and had no outs in his deck. I'm out T8 on my own lose play. Fucking Daggers.
L1-2

R15 v Kevin Jones on Esper Jabroniblade

I like Kevin, he's relatively local to where I used to live. Don't play that deck its awful.
W2-0



Notes:

So, the Copters. I found Intuition to be an terrible card, I was siding it out in every match. So I took it out of the deck, put in the Copters and the Baleful Strix and have not looked back. It performed incredibly well on the weekend, and is a house vs Dilbert and DnT, it trades with all of their shit. The Inventor's Fair (a concession to taking out 4 tutors) also performed very well for me on the weekend. The lifegain bought me at least a turn in every matchup where life was relevant, and it found me missing pieces several times. I really like where the maindeck is at. Daretti was insane, as was Chandra. I would like to fit the second Aether Grid back in the SB. Grafdigger's Cage is awful, it should probably be a second Spellbomb. The hardest MU for the deck is probably Show and Tell, since you have to find an extra piece to beat Emrakul and they can pretty easily race you.

I'm out of gas for the moment, maybe I will post more later. If you have questions, I'm happy to answer as best as I can. Sorry for the poor writing, its been a long few days.

[amppyou]

That list is mine.

...

So, the Copters. I found Intuition to be an terrible card, I was siding it out in every match. So I took it out of the deck, put in the Copters and the Baleful Strix and have not looked back. It performed incredibly well on the weekend, and is a house vs Dilbert and DnT, it trades with all of their shit. The Inventor's Fair (a concession to taking out 4 tutors) also performed very well for me on the weekend. The lifegain bought me at least a turn in every matchup where life was relevant, and it found me missing pieces several times. I really like where the maindeck is at. Daretti was insane, as was Chandra. I would like to fit the second Aether Grid back in the SB. Grafdigger's Cage is awful, it should probably be a second Spellbomb. The hardest MU for the deck is probably Show and Tell, since you have to find an extra piece to beat Emrakul and they can pretty easily race you.

I'm out of gas for the moment, maybe I will post more later. If you have questions, I'm happy to answer as best as I can. Sorry for the poor writing, its been a long few days.


Congrats on a strong finish in a huge field of players. I've been playing this build (w/ intuition) on and off again in weekly legacy events and I've never ult'd Tezz for the kill. It seems like Copter could help you get close, though. Could I get your thoughts on whether you'd think that 4 strix is better than the 2/2 split?

I like the idea of cutting the City of Traitors, as it has made some of my draws extremely awkward.

I'll be testing an Intuition-less build in the coming weeks. I know I'll miss the win-out-of-nowhere ability, though.

EDIT-

also, without Intuition, don't the silver bullets - LED / Spellbomb / Bridge feel unreliable? At the very least, it seems like the LED would be better used as a slot for something else.

[Hisa]

Congrats on a strong finish in a huge field of players. I've been playing this build (w/ intuition) on and off again in weekly legacy events and I've never ult'd Tezz for the kill. It seems like Copter could help you get close, though. Could I get your thoughts on whether you'd think that 4 strix is better than the 2/2 split?

I like the idea of cutting the City of Traitors, as it has made some of my draws extremely awkward.

I'll be testing an Intuition-less build in the coming weeks. I know I'll miss the win-out-of-nowhere ability, though.

EDIT-

also, without Intuition, don't the silver bullets - LED / Spellbomb / Bridge feel unreliable? At the very least, it seems like the LED would be better used as a slot for something else.

The chip damage from the copter absolutely makes the Tezz ult a more realistic win con. I haven't missed City at all.

I think the 2 Copter 2 Strix is the right way to do it. The black requirement on the Strix can be really hard on the mana (Vault of Whispers is a concession to the Strix, but it is by far the worst land, see round 14). Smuggler's Copter has really over-performed for me. It trades with all the things you want it to trade against except TKS and Reality Smasher, and generally the Eldrazi match is good enough that its not hugely missed.

LED... I'm out on it still. The one copy provides a lot of utility, and can lead to explosive starts, but sometimes it does nothing. In terms of the rest of the silver bullets, between the Copters and Top and Dack and Tezz most of the time I was able to find what I needed in time. Intuition doesn't play to the board, costs more mana, and is more devastating when it gets countered (the difference between two and three is huge, in my opinion). Not to mention the feel bad of when you do something like Intuition for 3 Goblin Welders, and the one you cast gets countered. The biggest drawback to dropping Intuition is the density of blue cards for FoW.

[amppyou]

The chip damage from the copter absolutely makes the Tezz ult a more realistic win con. I haven't missed City at all.

I think the 2 Copter 2 Strix is the right way to do it. The black requirement on the Strix can be really hard on the mana (Vault of Whispers is a concession to the Strix, but it is by far the worst land, see round 14). Smuggler's Copter has really over-performed for me. It trades with all the things you want it to trade against except TKS and Reality Smasher, and generally the Eldrazi match is good enough that its not hugely missed.

LED... I'm out on it still. The one copy provides a lot of utility, and can lead to explosive starts, but sometimes it does nothing. In terms of the rest of the silver bullets, between the Copters and Top and Dack and Tezz most of the time I was able to find what I needed in time. Intuition doesn't play to the board, costs more mana, and is more devastating when it gets countered (the difference between two and three is huge, in my opinion). Not to mention the feel bad of when you do something like Intuition for 3 Goblin Welders, and the one you cast gets countered. The biggest drawback to dropping Intuition is the density of blue cards for FoW.


So out of curiosity, have you been able to Tezz ult for a kill in your online play or the other day at the invitational? I hear what you're saying, but I'm thinking that maybe -1 vault -1 inventor's fair +1 sea +1 badlands might be worth trying to go up to a full 4 strix. Strix digs and trades regardless if you're ahead or behind. Copter just seems like it will put you in a tough position where you try to be the beatdown deck, but really aren't.

I'll try the changes I proposed, and if that feels too clunky, I'll go to the 2/2 split. also, the LED is a decent flex spot to smooth the mana out.

[Hisa]

So out of curiosity, have you been able to Tezz ult for a kill in your online play or the other day at the invitational? I hear what you're saying, but I'm thinking that maybe -1 vault -1 inventor's fair +1 sea +1 badlands might be worth trying to go up to a full 4 strix. Strix digs and trades regardless if you're ahead or behind. Copter just seems like it will put you in a tough position where you try to be the beatdown deck, but really aren't.

I'll try the changes I proposed, and if that feels too clunky, I'll go to the 2/2 split. also, the LED is a decent flex spot to smooth the mana out.

I have gotten several tezz ults off online. I had one kill with a Tezz Ult and one concession to an unanswerable Tezz at the invitational. The threat of a lethal ultimate is a big deal.

I think that it's worth testing the full set of Strix. I only have like 80 matches played with the deck and haven't tested that. The biggest loss, I think, from the changes you're proposing is losing an artifact land. The best starts that this deck gets are Artifact Land, Mox Opal, 1 CMC artifact. I am really interested in how your testing goes.

[amppyou]

I have gotten several tezz ults off online. I had one kill with a Tezz Ult and one concession to an unanswerable Tezz at the invitational. The threat of a lethal ultimate is a big deal.

I think that it's worth testing the full set of Strix. I only have like 80 matches played with the deck and haven't tested that. The biggest loss, I think, from the changes you're proposing is losing an artifact land. The best starts that this deck gets are Artifact Land, Mox Opal, 1 CMC artifact. I am really interested in how your testing goes.

I hear you. Top activation on turn one just feels brainstorm-esque. Welder with Strix shenanigans seems like a great thing, though. With the Badlands addition, I think that I might try new Daretti in the LED slot. I know that Tezzerator players are having great success with it. Also, I would love to have a true answer to Chalice in the MB.

[THATONE]

How did Dack feel to you?

[amppyou]

How did Dack feel to you?
With the cut of intuition, Dack enables welder. A lot of the time, mana is scarce, and Dack pitching something to be welded in could allow you to combo earlier.

Stealing artifacts is important too. If you target a top from a miracles player, you can grind it away after they draw off of it.

[EunB]

Great stuff in here, wish I had read this thread earlier. I saw Hisa's list and fell in love with the Tezz + Copter plan B so ordered some Grindstones and Copters and played painter for the first time ever last night at a local tournament. Thought I'd post here since I ended up splitting the finals. It was only 4 rounds, but the deck felt great.

I did make some changes due to card availability and general theorycrafting. In the main I cut the spellbomb and a seat of the synod for 2 more blue fetches, since 19 land seemed low for a deck that wants to cast 4-drops (even with opals), and 4 fetches for brainstorm seemed too low (even with dack/tezz/copter to help clear away chaffe). In the side I swapped Chandra for a Fiery Confluence and a Blood Moon for a Strix (only b/c I don't own a 3rd moon, I would never cut it otherwise). I wanted 3 strix main which is why I added more fetches to help cast it, but wasn't sure what else to cut. After the event I'd say LED is a pretty clear cut, though I like the idea behind it.

I think all Painter decks that run Sol lands should play at least 1 Fiery Confluence. The card is just insane. It gets awkward if we have a Strix or Welder out, but in my matches I 4-1'd an Eldrazi opponent taking out 2 mimics an endless one and a needle. I played white Eldrazi vs Imperial Painter at Eternal Weekend and similarly got blown out when he destroyed my Chalice, Mox Diamond and Jitte with one Confluence.

Anyway, I beat BUG Death Shadow, Jund, Turbo Depths and split with Eldrazi in the end though we played it out for fun. Inventor's Fair was great for the incidental life gain and threat of searching out the combo causing opponents to hold up mana nearly every single turn. Copter was the reason I wanted to play this deck and was brilliant. The looting and damage make it tough for the opp. to interact with your multiple angles of attack, they'll also be forced to kill it instead of your impactful cards like welder/servant. Going into today I was excited to make 5/5 Copters with Tezz but realized while playing it's just better to go wide and make them kill your opal or artifact land instead.

The deck also really overloads opps. Abrupt Decays.

I'll definitely be coming back to Painter more in the future, and though my tournament was small thought I'd just share another small success with that specific list. Cheers.

[Ganfar]

I have gotten several tezz ults off online. I had one kill with a Tezz Ult and one concession to an unanswerable Tezz at the invitational. The threat of a lethal ultimate is a big deal.

I think that it's worth testing the full set of Strix. I only have like 80 matches played with the deck and haven't tested that. The biggest loss, I think, from the changes you're proposing is losing an artifact land. The best starts that this deck gets are Artifact Land, Mox Opal, 1 CMC artifact. I am really interested in how your testing goes.

In what matchup do you bring in Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast?

[Hisa]

In what matchup do you bring in Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast?

Daretti comes in in Grindy matches and against chalice decks. Chandra comes in in some of those matches, too, but is in the list to fight miracles.

[amppyou]

I finally got to run a list with some Strix. I ran two and they felt great. The Shardless BUG player I played against was a little bit rusty, but the Strix definitely slanted the match towards me even further.

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Baleful Strix
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Dack Fayden
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Pyroblast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Grindstone
3 Mox Opal
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Mountain

Given Hisa's advice, I've begun looking at side boarding differently. I found myself siding out Intuition more often. I still like the card, and I think 3 feels much better than 4. Being able to steal the game out of nowhere with an active welder is sick, and Intuition makes the deck much faster IMO.

I don't think I'll ever miss LED either. Even at 4 copies of Intuition, I don't think I ever Intuition'd for it. It's nice as a way to sneak cards from your hand into your graveyard, and good for bridge, but not worthy of a slot.

Play of the day was when my Shardless BUG opponent Abrupt Decay'd my Welder. In response, I sac'd my Tormod's Crypt targetting me- welded it back in binning a Great Furnace - then Crypt'd him. Shrank his goyf from 5/6 to 0/1. I love the unorthodox lines that this deck has.

[Ganfar]

Daretti comes in in Grindy matches and against chalice decks. Chandra comes in in some of those matches, too, but is in the list to fight miracles.
Nice!

I have proxy the deck and playtested the deck. I love it.

But is LED really need in the deck? It feel very narrow what it can do (and cost too much)

[Hisa]

So, Whir of Invention seems great.

[kinda]

So, Whir of Invention seems great.

Got a list in mind?

[Hisa]

So now that we have the full spoiler I think that there are a bunch of cards worth discussing.

Card that are probably bad but maybe are worth talking about:
Disallow
Reverse Engineer
Battle at the Bridge
Heart of Kiran
Scrap Trawler
Treasure Keeper


Cards which are definitely worth playtesting:
Whir of Invention
Hope of Girapur


A list with HoG is pretty straight forward. I've been playing without LED for a while and it fills that spot nicely. Something like
//Creatures
2 Baleful Strix
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Hope of Ghirapur

//Planeswalkers
2 Dack Fayden
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

//Mana
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Great Furnace
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Mox Opal
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Underground Sea
1 Vault of Whispers
2 Volcanic Island

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
4 Grindstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Pyroblast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Smuggler's Copter


Whir of Invention is a little less straightforward. Maybe

//Creatures
2 Baleful Strix
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant

//Planeswalkers
2 Dack Fayden
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

//Mana
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Great Furnace
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Island
1 Mountain
3 Mox Opal
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Underground Sea
1 Vault of Whispers
2 Volcanic Island

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Force of Will
4 Grindstone
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Pyroblast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Smuggler's Copter
3 Whir of Invention

Or this might be totally the wrong way to go about it. Putting tutors back it makes me want to drop the Copter Package and go back to a heavier combo build with a bigger tool box. But, the reason I like URb better than Imperial is because it's less all in on the combo.


Thoughts?

[militiaman89]

My current take has been a little more value and consistency.

RUG painter
4x glint nest crane
4x shardless agent
4x painters servent
2x bloodbraid elf

4x grindstone
4x force of will
4x pyroblast
4x brainstorm
3x sensei diving top
3x ancestral vision

22 lands

So far its amazing to play and the decks cant compete with the value and consistency of getting the combo together.

Any thoughts are welcomed

[Cyanhur]

Hi,

I love painter deck, i do not understand why U/R or grixis painter is unpopular.
CAN some one explain me? Because we have force, brainstorm and painter to active force with a land and pyroblast
Actually i am playing grixis version.
I started to play painter with RW version but we really need force in some popular match up.

It's really difficult to find someone to speak about grixis version, someone CAN give me a name for an active player?
Because i am preparing the eternal évent and i have some questions.

In my last tornament i did some top 8 or correct results (5-1-1, 5-2 or in little tornament i did 4-0 or 3-1).

Thanks!

[pinkfrosting]

Hi,

I love painter deck, i do not understand why U/R or grixis painter is unpopular.
CAN some one explain me? Because we have force, brainstorm and painter to active force with a land and pyroblast
Actually i am playing grixis version.
I started to play painter with RW version but we really need force in some popular match up.

It's really difficult to find someone to speak about grixis version, someone CAN give me a name for an active player?
Because i am preparing the eternal évent and i have some questions.

In my last tornament i did some top 8 or correct results (5-1-1, 5-2 or in little tornament i did 4-0 or 3-1).

Thanks!

While I agree the Ux painter decks are super sweet and fun to play, I think they see less competitive play because if you want to play combo with force and blue cards sneak and show just outclasses this deck. The painterstone combo has weakness (abrupt decay, bolt, swords, shuffle effect eldrazi in the opponent's deck) that sneak and show doesn't have. Sneak also generally only needs to resolve one 3 or 4 mana spell and simply have the second piece in hand. Painter stone is a 2 resolved card 6 mana combo where both pieces are permanents vulnerable to removal.

The red version sees play because it's really a stompy prison blood moon deck that gets to attack from a combo angle as well, which the other stompy variants don't really have. Pyroblast and REB also give it a more effective defense and control angle than other blood moon decks like big red and dragon stompy.

[Noctalor]

Testing this list a bit recently
// 60 Maindeck
// 6 Artifact
1 Grindstone
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Meekstone

// 11 Creature
4 Painter's Servant
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trinket Mage
2 Sulfur Elemental

// 2 Enchantment
1 Blood Moon
1 Counterbalance

// 18 Instant
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

// 21 Land
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void

// 4 Creature
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster

// 1 Enchantment
SB: 1 Blood Moon

// 7 Instant
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Wear // Tear

It has a positive miracle MU, basicly a bye against omnitell and it's decent against the rest of the field, give it a try if you want to.

[inkwelder]

Hi,

I love painter deck, i do not understand why U/R or grixis painter is unpopular.
CAN some one explain me? Because we have force, brainstorm and painter to active force with a land and pyroblast
Actually i am playing grixis version.
I started to play painter with RW version but we really need force in some popular match up.

It's really difficult to find someone to speak about grixis version, someone CAN give me a name for an active player?
Because i am preparing the eternal évent and i have some questions.

In my last tornament i did some top 8 or correct results (5-1-1, 5-2 or in little tornament i did 4-0 or 3-1).

Thanks!

What's your list looking like? I've played grixis painter now for about 2 years and have been tweaking the deck for various metas. I've tested Hope of Ghirapur which is only good against combo really. Here's my current list. Main board it's all in combo for the most part, and sides into Tezzeret and can play a control game. Black is only in the sideboard which is 17 cards. I remove 2 cards based on the local meta.

Instant
4 x Intuition
4 x Force of Will
4 x Brainstorm
1 x Pyroblast
Land
3 x Seat of the Synod
1 x Mountain
4 x Polluted Delta
2 x Great Furnace
1 x Island
1 x Flooded Strand
1 x City of Traitors
1 x Underground Sea
3 x Ancient Tomb
2 x Volcanic Island
Artifact
4 x Mox Opal
3 x Sensei's Divining Top
4 x Grindstone
1 x Tormod's Crypt
3 x Lion's Eye Diamond
Creature
4 x Goblin Welder
1 x Sandstone Oracle
1 x Trinket Mage
4 x Painter's Servant
1 x Torrential Gearhulk
Sorcery
2 x Transmute Artifact

Sideboard
1 x Engineered Explosives
1 x Swamp
1 x Ensnaring Bridge
2 x Spellskite
2 x Ghirapur Æther Grid
1 x Pithing Needle
3 x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 x Pyroblast
2 x Hope of Ghirapur
2 x Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

[Cyanhur]

I am playing this deck list :

Planes :
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Creatures :
2 Baleful Strix
4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder

Spells :
4 Force of Will
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Intuition
1 Transmute Artifact
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal

Lands
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Inventor's Fair

Sideboard
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Spellskite
3 Blood Moon
1 Ghirapur Æther Grid
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage


I know intuition is probably the card i will side but i prefer intuition than Smuggler's Copter.

[waz]

I'm on something very similar, I switched over from Imperial Painter in November, and am enjoying Grixis.

Planeswalkers:
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Dack Fayden
1 Saheeli Rai

Creatures :
2 Baleful Strix
4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

Spells :
4 Force of Will
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal

Lands
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Inventor's Fair

Sideboard
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Spellskite
3 Blood Moon
1 Ghirapur Æther Grid
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage


Saheeli has been outstanding for me.

[Hisa]

Tell me more about Saheeli.




I'm on something very similar, I switched over from Imperial Painter in November, and am enjoying Grixis.

Planeswalkers:
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Dack Fayden
1 Saheeli Rai

Creatures :
2 Baleful Strix
4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

Spells :
4 Force of Will
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal

Lands
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Inventor's Fair

Sideboard
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Spellskite
3 Blood Moon
1 Ghirapur Æther Grid
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage


Saheeli has been outstanding for me.

[Mapson]

Also curious about saheeli, and Jvp. Also am I the only one who doesn't like led?

[Cyanhur]

Also curious about saheeli, and Jvp. Also am I the only one who doesn't like led?

I love one off LED just for sometine turn2 combo.

[CptHaddock]

Also curious about saheeli, and Jvp. Also am I the only one who doesn't like led?

I can't speak from the prospective of UR but I imagine it's similar to Rw in that it gives a shot of racing against a lot of decks. There have been quite a few games where I was able to use an LED to quickly combo before my opponent got anything of substance on the board. At worst it's made my opponents play a little more passively since it gives me a free activation of grindstone.

That being said I don't think it's 100% needed as going all in when you have the opponent misread can be pretty poor. I like having my game 1s be as quick combo oriented as possible so that postboard I can board into a slower more grindy game as needed.

[waz]

I like LED as sometimes an instant combo threat, a way to dump hand to Bridge, activating in response to Tezzeret, and a 0 drop to turn on Mox Opal.

As far as Saheeli, she has been outstanding as a role player. I recently won a small EE Silver qualifer and she definitely pulled her weight. She adds additional redundancy pieces and card advantage.

Originally Hisa's list (from SCG Baltimore) ran two Copters, and since I didn't have two I tried one and 1 JVP. When Kaladesh got spoiled and I saw Saheeli, my first thought was that she would play very nicely with goblin welder. And I have lived the dream of copying a welder and having the copy weld itself out. Smoothing out draws with a scry each turn, or copying a strix/top to draw a card is also very nice. As an example, I had both combo pieces in yard yesterday against reanimator and only 1 active welder. By copying the welder, I was able to win that turn, and not die to a flying lifelinking 7/7. However, in matchups such as reanimator or other fast combo decks, she is likely being sided out.

I have been less impressed with JVP and have considered cutting him, but for now he hasn't moved out.

[Hisa]

I have been running some Saheeli online and, while the sample size is small (two leagues) I've liked it. I'm going to GPNJ tomorrow to play in the sides and I think I'm going to do a more serious swap of -2 Dack +2 Saheeli. I'm always super on the fence with Dack since his ultimate does nothing, his -2 steals a jitter or a mox diamond once every 12 games and he hardly has any effect on the board. He sees more cards than Saheeli, and has obvious synergies with welder, but I really think it's worth trying out the swap.

I also have to figure out if I want any of the masterpieces. Hmm...

[Cyanhur]

I have been running some Saheeli online and, while the sample size is small (two leagues) I've liked it. I'm going to GPNJ tomorrow to play in the sides and I think I'm going to do a more serious swap of -2 Dack +2 Saheeli. I'm always super on the fence with Dack since his ultimate does nothing, his -2 steals a jitter or a mox diamond once every 12 games and he hardly has any effect on the board. He sees more cards than Saheeli, and has obvious synergies with welder, but I really think it's worth trying out the swap.

I also have to figure out if I want any of the masterpieces. Hmm...

Good luck! Can you tell us a report after ?

I am preparing a tournament for next week, and i think i will run too Saheeli to cut 2 dack.

But is Whir in one off is a good choice to cut your jace? Waz?

[Cyanhur]

I did 6 hours play test Again and i confirm too for saheeli, but i am not sure about transmute main deck.
In side board, What do you think about to cut daretti with Kolaghan and grudge for kozilek return?

[Hisa]

I did 6 hours play test Again and i confirm too for saheeli, but i am not sure about transmute main deck.
In side board, What do you think about to cut daretti with Kolaghan and grudge for kozilek return?

I think Kolaghan's Command is fine. Kozilek's Return, on the other hand, kills welder and strix. Seems a little rough. I would probably try Sudden Demise before I tried Kozilek's Return.

[Cyanhur]

I think Kolaghan's Command is fine. Kozilek's Return, on the other hand, kills welder and strix. Seems a little rough. I would probably try Sudden Demise before I tried Kozilek's Return.

I think in my side board i will cut daretti for kolaghan then. Main deck i think i will keep transmute, because i did not find an other card or 1copter?
Did your tournament be fine?

[Hisa]

So due to some unforeseen stuff, I didn't make it out to the GP site. I did, however, play in the legacy challenge on MTGO. I went 4-3 and finished 24th (out of 75ish), losing to Shardless (mul to 4 game 3), UR Delver with maindeck Price of Progress (a pretty hard matchup, I think), and a BUG Delver player who slammed t2 Null Rod games two and three. I beat Miracles, Belcher, Storm and BR Reanimator. I could have played tighter against the Shartless player in G2 to win, I think. UR Delver is really hard because of Price and Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning. Padeem would probably help with the bolts, but PoP is still a rough card. Null Rod is beatable, but fuuuuuuck is it hard.

Best part of the tournament was beating BR Reanimator after he t1 Reanimated a Chancellor of the Annex. A four turn clock is to slow.

Saheeli was awesome. There was not a single time where I wished that she was Dack instead, and I ultimated her twice to win the game.

My List:

4x Scalding Tarn
3x Seat of the Synod
3x Ancient Tomb
2x Volcanic Island
2x Great Furnace
1x Vault of Whispers
1x Underground Sea
1x Inventor's Fair
1x Island
1x Mountain

4x Painter's Servant
4x Goblin Welder
2x Baleful Strix
1x Hope of Ghirapur

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Pyroblast

4x Grindstone
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Mox Opal
2x Smuggler's Copter
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Ensnaring Bridge

3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2x Saheeli Rai

Sideboard:
3x Blood Moon
1x Ghirapur Aether Grid

2x Flusterstorm
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Ancient Grudge

1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Spellskite

1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Ensnaring Bridge

1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast


I wanna play with the sideboard some more, I'm only medium happy with it. There is A LOT less Eldrazi in general and on MTGO especially, which means the Blood Moons are only really good against lands. There's also an uptick of Sneak and Show which makes me want to have more Tormod's Crypt effects. Gotta tweak and see where I end up.

Also, I decided I should just get all the Masterpieces XD

[chaosjace]

Blood Moon completely shuts down delver (besides bolts) and can really hurt miracles, if they are popular in your meta.

[Hisa]

Blood Moon completely shuts down delver (besides bolts) and can really hurt miracles, if they are popular in your meta.


Blood Moon completely shuts down Canadian. It's much less effective against the DRS / Abrupt Decay delver variants. The Miracles MU is already pretty good, and many of them are built for Back to Basics or Bloodmoon themselves atm. I'm not saying you don't get any points, but it seems marginal.

[chaosjace]

Blood Moon completely shuts down Canadian. It's much less effective against the DRS / Abrupt Decay delver variants. The Miracles MU is already pretty good, and many of them are built for Back to Basics or Bloodmoon themselves atm. I'm not saying you don't get any points, but it seems marginal.

I don't see how? DRS cannot be cast, or activated if all the lands are mountains. I personally have not seen any delver variants with basics. and abrupt decay wont save them if you are activating in response for the win. And from the miracles side, not all of them play bloodmoon, and the ones that do, haven't considered their basic land to non basic ratio. the very, VERY few that are set up for back to basics, are the only ones you have to worry about MAYBE. Miracles plays 9 fetches minimum, that is a good chunk of their mana base. If your meta is flooded with the rare miracles variants that run B2B, then carry on with these ideals.

[Cyanhur]

Blood Moon completely shuts down delver (besides bolts) and can really hurt miracles, if they are popular in your meta.

I put Moon into all bug match up or any 3color deck, but i understand moon is better in wR or mono red or UR version. What do you propose ? Witch card can go in side if we cut moon?

Maybe trinket mage, tornod, wurmcoil, sulfure elemental?

[waz]

Good luck! Can you tell us a report after ?

I am preparing a tournament for next week, and i think i will run too Saheeli to cut 2 dack.

But is Whir in one off is a good choice to cut your jace? Waz?

I don't like Whir's UUU cost.

For those that have been cutting Daretti, how have you found it? It feels like having more planeswalkers makes the deck more resilient in the grindy matchup, as well as providing another avenue of removal/dealing with unexpected artifacts.

Hisa, what has your experience been like with Hope of Ghirapur?

[Karhumies]

I wanna play with the sideboard some more, I'm only medium happy with it.

Stealing some potential ideas from Monored Stompy:
Fiery Confluence (artifact & weenie hate)
Sudden Demise / Rolling Earthquake
Trinisphere / Thorn of Amethyst (combo)
more Ensnaring Bridges
Sudden Shock (Monastery Mentor)
Quicksmith Rebel (similar to Ghirapur Aether Grid)
Sin Prodder (similar to Chandra, synergy with Welder)

Stealing some potential ideas from BUG and UBR midrange:
Lost Legacy
Engineered Explosives
Kolaghan's Command

[Cyanhur]

I don't like Whir's UUU cost.

For those that have been cutting Daretti, how have you found it? It feels like having more planeswalkers makes the deck more resilient in the grindy matchup, as well as providing another avenue of removal/dealing with unexpected artifacts.

Hisa, what has your experience been like with Hope of Ghirapur?

Daretti si fine vs dnt, but for the others match up i am not convinced.

I have a tornament this week-end i think i will Try this :


1 Kolaghan
1 Chandra
2 fluster
2 moon
1 bridge
1 Reb
1 extraction
1 needle
1 spellskite
1 cage
1 missdirection
1 sudden demise
1 tornod

I keep the same main list i cut 2 intuition for 2 saheeli i keep transmut and explosive arti

[Hisa]

I don't like Whir's UUU cost.

For those that have been cutting Daretti, how have you found it? It feels like having more planeswalkers makes the deck more resilient in the grindy matchup, as well as providing another avenue of removal/dealing with unexpected artifacts.

Hisa, what has your experience been like with Hope of Ghirapur?

I've mostly been jamming on MTGO where I play against mono Storm and SnS. Its great in those matches, as it often buys you the turn you need to go off as they are low on interaction for your turn. The HoG / Welder lock in those matches is super super good. It has utility for protection in the fair matches (protecting from swords and daze and abrupt decay), but I don't usually find myself digging for that. I would say it has as much or more utility than the Pithing Needle I had in that slot beforehand, and it crews the Copter.

In other news, Saheeli continues to be incredible. I've never looked Dack. ;)

[waz]

Dack has been fine, but with the increase in Leovolds I cut the JVP for Saheeli and have been completely happy with that switch.

I switched up the sideboard a bit. I most recently ran:

2 Blood Moon
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

I'm not sure how I feel about cutting the third moon, and while I can see K-Command & Daretti serving similar purposes, I do like that Daretti is an on-board threat. K-Command was outstanding.

[Ish]

I see most people cutting intuition and transmute artifact. What's the reasoning for this? In the past those are really the two cards that made URx a real contender over R/Rw for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hisa]

I see most people cutting intuition and transmute artifact. What's the reasoning for this? In the past those are really the two cards that made URx a real contender over R/Rw for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Those cards are clunky. Thinking about this as a pure combo deck is wrong. Imperial Painter or Strawberry Shortcake are always going to be better at the combo aspects of the deck. UR and URb Painted Stone are midrange / control decks with a combo finish filling a similar niche to what Twin filled in modern. The first card I slide out in every match I can get away with it is Force of Will, because I'm not really interested in protecting the combo. I think this deck wins almost every game that it can drag to the midgame.

To your question, Ish, Intuition and Transmute Artifact are sluggish and help set up the combo. They don't win fair grindy games.


All of that being said, with the downtick in Eldrazi I want to trim or cut my Bloodmoons. Is Mindslaver too greedy?

[inkwelder]

Those cards are clunky. Thinking about this as a pure combo deck is wrong. Imperial Painter or Strawberry Shortcake are always going to be better at the combo aspects of the deck. UR and URb Painted Stone are midrange / control decks with a combo finish filling a similar niche to what Twin filled in modern. The first card I slide out in every match I can get away with it is Force of Will, because I'm not really interested in protecting the combo. I think this deck wins almost every game that it can drag to the midgame.

To your question, Ish, Intuition and Transmute Artifact are sluggish and help set up the combo. They don't win fair grindy games.


All of that being said, with the downtick in Eldrazi I want to trim or cut my Bloodmoons. Is Mindslaver too greedy?

I'm really confused by this comment. This version of the deck is also called All in Painter... That's because it can combo off MUCH faster than the R and R/w variants, because you have access to lion's eye diamond. My experience is that it's very much a combo deck that sides into a more midrange, control deck (to fend off hate) post-board.

I also don't understand why people on here are cutting Intuition and Transmute Artifact. What's the point of running Goblin Welder? Just as protection and redundancy? Has no one here EoT Intuition with a welder out and untapped and grinded the opponent out? How on earth is Intuition a slow card??? Maybe against a Thalia deck, sure. Perhaps you cut it against black decks that will bring in surgical. But maindeck, it's a blowout.

I was hoping to find some reactions on the thread to the Top ban. I've adjusted my main deck, replacing my welder-top engine with welder-strix. I've been running ponders and have found the deck to still be quite resilient. I haven't tested out Saheeli Rai, as she seems incredibly slow and do nothing, but I suppose could be good with Strix. Scrying is great, but dealing one to the opponent is borderline useless. What matchups does she shine in?

Also Daretti (BR version) is an all star. He comes in against every creature deck and he does WORK. My record is stellar when resolving a Daretti, and he turns the DnT matchup to be quite favorable.

Has anyone written a primer on their version of the deck? I have my own but would be curious as to what others are running and why.

Thanks and good luck in the brave new world of legacy!

[polski]

I'm really confused by this comment. This version of the deck is also called All in Painter... That's because it can combo off MUCH faster than the R and R/w variants, because you have access to lion's eye diamond. My experience is that it's very much a combo deck that sides into a more midrange, control deck (to fend off hate) post-board.

I also don't understand why people on here are cutting Intuition and Transmute Artifact. What's the point of running Goblin Welder? Just as protection and redundancy? Has no one here EoT Intuition with a welder out and untapped and grinded the opponent out? How on earth is Intuition a slow card??? Maybe against a Thalia deck, sure. Perhaps you cut it against black decks that will bring in surgical. But maindeck, it's a blowout.

I was hoping to find some reactions on the thread to the Top ban. I've adjusted my main deck, replacing my welder-top engine with welder-strix. I've been running ponders and have found the deck to still be quite resilient. I haven't tested out Saheeli Rai, as she seems incredibly slow and do nothing, but I suppose could be good with Strix. Scrying is great, but dealing one to the opponent is borderline useless. What matchups does she shine in?

Also Daretti (BR version) is an all star. He comes in against every creature deck and he does WORK. My record is stellar when resolving a Daretti, and he turns the DnT matchup to be quite favorable.

Has anyone written a primer on their version of the deck? I have my own but would be curious as to what others are running and why.

Thanks and good luck in the brave new world of legacy!

can you share your list,please?

[inkwelder]

can you share your list,please?

Not sure on proper formatting for deck pasting so here's a link in case with a mostly updated primer included:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/agents-servants-1/

Let me know if you have any comments/questions or suggestions.

Land (19)
2x Ancient Tomb
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x City of Traitors
1x Great Furnace
1x Island
1x Mountain
3x Polluted Delta
3x Seat of the Synod
1x Swamp
1x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island

Sorcery (4)
3x Ponder
1x Transmute Artifact

Artifact (12)
1x Chrome Mox
4x Grindstone
3x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Mox Opal
1x Nihil Spellbomb

Creature (11)
2x Baleful Strix
4x Goblin Welder
4x Painter's Servant
1x Trinket Mage

Instant (12)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Intuition

Planeswalker (2)
2x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Sideboard (15)
2x Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Ghirapur AEther Grid
1x Pithing Needle
3x Pyroblast
2x Spellskite
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2x Thoughtseize

Cheers!

[sirgubster9]

Not sure on proper formatting for deck pasting so here's a link in case with a mostly updated primer included:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/agents-servants-1/

Let me know if you have any comments/questions or suggestions.

Land (19)
2x Ancient Tomb
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x City of Traitors
1x Great Furnace
1x Island
1x Mountain
3x Polluted Delta
3x Seat of the Synod
1x Swamp
1x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island

Sorcery (4)
3x Ponder
1x Transmute Artifact

Artifact (12)
1x Chrome Mox
4x Grindstone
3x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Mox Opal
1x Nihil Spellbomb

Creature (11)
2x Baleful Strix
4x Goblin Welder
4x Painter's Servant
1x Trinket Mage

Instant (12)
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Intuition

Planeswalker (2)
2x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

Sideboard (15)
2x Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Ghirapur AEther Grid
1x Pithing Needle
3x Pyroblast
2x Spellskite
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2x Thoughtseize

Cheers!

I am in love with goblin welder.... is there a way to play this without the lions eyes diamonds, and if so how would you change things up? you also mentioned in your tappedout post that you could run this deck with Dack Fayden, Ensnaring Bridge, and Pyroblast main, if you where going to do that, what would you be taking out?

[CptHaddock]

I haven't played this deck in a very long time but what is the reason for not playing 4 Ponder? It seems like you're basically like Show and Tell decks where you are trying to assemble A + B, isn't ponder better especially post top ban? Also I remember that this deck used to play Grim Monolith, what is the reason that card fell out of favor? It seems pretty good when your postboard plan is to play turbo wurmcoil engines against non white playing fair decks.

[merfolkotpt]

I haven't played this deck in a very long time but what is the reason for not playing 4 Ponder? It seems like you're basically like Show and Tell decks where you are trying to assemble A + B, isn't ponder better especially post top ban? Also I remember that this deck used to play Grim Monolith, what is the reason that card fell out of favor? It seems pretty good when your postboard plan is to play turbo wurmcoil engines against non white playing fair decks.

THe reason for not playing ponder used to just be room and that with an ancient tomb and non-fetch heavy mana base it was better to be casting tutors than ponders. I don't know if the new versions are still set up that way, but without top the deck definitely changes a bit, probably not as much as the Red version, but ponder might be reasonable.

[CptHaddock]

THe reason for not playing ponder used to just be room and that with an ancient tomb and non-fetch heavy mana base it was better to be casting tutors than ponders. I don't know if the new versions are still set up that way, but without top the deck definitely changes a bit, probably not as much as the Red version, but ponder might be reasonable.

That's fair, I guess this deck was (is still?) the turbo painter deck.

So i'm thinking about running this list, what do people think about it? I think that there are too many delver decks out there to be playing the turbo combo plan and our combo is pretty easy to interact with for more decks so I want to play a slower more grinder game.

4 Painter's Servant
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
4 Force of Will
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Goblin Welder
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Mox Opal
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Tropical Island
2 Great Furnace
3 Volcanic Island
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Polluted Delta
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Spell Pierce

2 Flusterstorm
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Spellskite
2 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives

[sirgubster9]

That's fair, I guess this deck was (is still?) the turbo painter deck.

So i'm thinking about running this list, what do people think about it? I think that there are too many delver decks out there to be playing the turbo combo plan and our combo is pretty easy to interact with for more decks so I want to play a slower more grinder game.

4 Painter's Servant
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
4 Force of Will
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Goblin Welder
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Mox Opal
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Tropical Island
2 Great Furnace
3 Volcanic Island
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Polluted Delta
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Spell Pierce

2 Flusterstorm
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Spellskite
2 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives

So what kind of luck have you had with this setup, it looks like a lot of fun?

[CptHaddock]

So what kind of luck have you had with this setup, it looks like a lot of fun?

Nothing notable, I haven't been able to go to weeklies and don't own the cards on MTGO so it's mostly been playing on cockatrice which doesn't have the best of pilots. It's certainly fun but I don't really know how good it is, it feels like you autolose to Delver if you go the turbo plan and if you are grinder it just feels like a worse version of sneak and show. I think that there is a good middle ground between the turbo and grindy plan but I haven't really found it (I haven't really been trying either).

[merfolkotpt]

So I started testing this with an old list again, and so far it has been pretty great. I had been playing iPainter for awhile, but it suffers far more from the loss of SDT then this deck does. Hoping today to get some testing in against some sort of tempo. So far I have tested against lands, aluren, maverick (I have weird stuff at my local shop). The sideboard is obviously a work in progress, but here is the list:

Combo (13)
-------------------
4x Painter
4x Grindstone
1x LED
4x Goblin Welder

Draw and Tutor (13)
-------------------
4x Transmute Artifact
3x Intuition
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder

Protection (7)
------------------
4x Force of Will
3x Pyroblast

Backup Plans (3)
------------------
2x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Ensnaring Bridge

Mana (24)
------------------
3x Grim Monolith
2x Mox Opal
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
2x Volcanic Island
2x Island
1x Mountain
3x Seat of the Synod
1x Great Furnace
3x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors


Sideboard (15)
------------------
3x Blood moon
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Flusterstorm
2x Izzet Staticaster
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Pyroblast
1x Trinisphere

[Pook and Pie]

Oh, I am *so* happy to see this thread get some activity. I'm doing stuff right now, and my deck is at home, but it's been a while since mine has been played but I have a feeling I'm going to shift back to the Wurmcoil + Monolith build since Top's ban (I dropped the backup plans for more Pyroblast/REBs and disruption. Still lost to Elves earlier this year, lol).

last time I played my list, I was against Goblins, Tin Fins, Elves, and Burn. Went 3-1. I'll post my list (or edit this post if I can) after I get back home tonight.

[CptHaddock]

So I started testing this with an old list again, and so far it has been pretty great. I had been playing iPainter for awhile, but it suffers far more from the loss of SDT then this deck does. Hoping today to get some testing in against some sort of tempo. So far I have tested against lands, aluren, maverick (I have weird stuff at my local shop). The sideboard is obviously a work in progress, but here is the list:


Your list looks pretty neat, have the additional tutors and adding the ponders made up for the loss of top? I'm still missing a few pieces of the deck online but i'm going to try to get them, I guess the ultimate test will be playing painted stone against the plethora of Czech Pile and Grixis Delver online.

[merfolkotpt]

Yeah i mean so far so good. My real worry is what happens post board when opponents have surgical, as that is a bit harder of a card for us to beat, especially if we are on the intuition plan.

But yeah in terms of game 1 consistency, it feels about the same as it ever did. Slightly fewer hands with turn 1 metalcraft, but the numbers feels pretty good. I still think the deck is quite powerful. Welder still feels really strong, I would also argue that opponents don't understand how to play against welder with their Deathrites, people keep tapping their deathrites against me, and it just seems so incorrect.

[compacta_d]

Has anyone been playing the Koikawa Shun mono U list?

I've been playing it a few weeks now and love it, but looking to fill in the 4 missing cards, or see some others Mono U tech at least.

reference

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/740805#paper

[paradaxarada]

Blue Stone Moon -

Land (18) -

4x Ancient Tomb
1x Great Furnace
4x Island
1x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Seat of the Synod
3x Volcanic Island

Creature (10) -

4x Goblin Welder
4x Painter's Servant
2x Trinket Mage

Sorcery (2) -

2x Transmute Artifact

Artifact (11) -

1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Grindstone
4x Lotus Petal
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt

Instant (16) -

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Intuition
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast

Enchantment (3) -

3x Blood Moon

Sideboard (15) -

2x Abrade
1x Aether Spellbomb
2x Echoing Truth
2x Flusterstorm
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Meekstone
1x Mountain
1x Pyrite Spellbomb
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Walking Ballista

[Fallen_Empire]

Has anyone been playing the Koikawa Shun mono U list?

I've been playing it a few weeks now and love it, but looking to fill in the 4 missing cards, or see some others Mono U tech at least.

reference

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/740805#paper


I haven't sleeved it up but plan on doing so in the next few weeks. Seems like Ensnaring Bridge might be worth a slot or two. Muddle the Mixture might also be an interesting option, it's a counter that can also tutor us goodies. I might also toy with Helm/Leyline of the Void as an alternative SB win con.

[compacta_d]

I haven't sleeved it up but plan on doing so in the next few weeks. Seems like Ensnaring Bridge might be worth a slot or two. Muddle the Mixture might also be an interesting option, it's a counter that can also tutor us goodies. I might also toy with Helm/Leyline of the Void as an alternative SB win con.

I saw a list with 1 bridge and 3 lotus petals mained. Seems good to me.

I'll be trying different things, but so far love the list and Whir of Invention is actually fantastic. My favorite card in the list now.

[keys]

The missing cards are 4 Gitaxian Probe by the way. I've tested it out a fair bit. Jace TMS + Bridge is definitely better than Thopter Spy Network (especially if you aren't playing artifact lands/Mox). Llawan is kinda janky too but I guess it can save you sometimes.

[compacta_d]

The missing cards are 4 Gitaxian Probe by the way. I've tested it out a fair bit. Jace TMS + Bridge is definitely better than Thopter Spy Network (especially if you aren't playing artifact lands/Mox). Llawan is kinda janky too but I guess it can save you sometimes.

Been playing with Probes for 2 weeks. it's been dead 100% of the time or actually a hindurance. It does nothing in this deck.

edit-in addition, no other painter deck plays probes that i've seen.

[Fallen_Empire]

The missing cards are 4 Gitaxian Probe by the way. I've tested it out a fair bit. Jace TMS + Bridge is definitely better than Thopter Spy Network (especially if you aren't playing artifact lands/Mox). Llawan is kinda janky too but I guess it can save you sometimes.

Are you happy with the land base? Are you running only 4 fetches and 3 sol lands? (I guess we need to worry about our own back to basics)...

[joaquin]

Been playing with Probes for 2 weeks. it's been dead 100% of the time or actually a hindurance. It does nothing in this deck.

edit-in addition, no other painter deck plays probes that i've seen.


I'm pretty sure the missing 4 cards are hydroblast. Why else would the sideboard be 3 blue elemental blast? Hydroblast is strictly better because of how it is worded (can target non-red spells or perms).

Also almost every painter deck in existence runs a 4 / 3 split of the two cards in the main board. The ONLY reason why this deck would have less than 7 mainboard is because it runs force of will, which is kind of a "nonbo." That's why they moved 3 to the board. You cant not have any blasts mainboard. That's my thinking at any rate. If the sideboard cards were hydroblast instead, I would be slightly more skeptical.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

[compacta_d]

I'm pretty sure the missing 4 cards are hydroblast. Why else would the sideboard be 3 blue elemental blast? Hydroblast is strictly better because of how it is worded (can target non-red spells or perms).

Also almost every painter deck in existence runs a 4 / 3 split of the two cards in the main board. The ONLY reason why this deck would have less than 7 mainboard is because it runs force of will, which is kind of a "nonbo." That's why they moved 3 to the board. You cant not have any blasts mainboard. That's my thinking at any rate. If the sideboard cards were hydroblast instead, I would be slightly more skeptical.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

That's a legit response, and I've heard that from someone else as well.

Daze as been pretty good. I can test Hydroblast next.

[compacta_d]

Are you happy with the land base? Are you running only 4 fetches and 3 sol lands? (I guess we need to worry about our own back to basics)...

I actually get flooded. A LOT.

May drop one tomb and one island.

It's frustrating when the scenario happens of "Ponder. See 3 islands. Shuffle. Draw island. Brainstorm. 2 islands in the 3...UGH"

[Fallen_Empire]

That's a legit response, and I've heard that from someone else as well.

Daze as been pretty good. I can test Hydroblast next.


How has the testing gone? I jammed a few games at my weekly. Loved the fact I could grindstone myself to search for a painter with an academy ruins in play :laugh: Are you still running the stock list? I'm thinking about trying out a few TNN's and a Jitte.

[Ganuel]

Played the following list on a small tournament last weekend. Ended up with 3:1, beating Czech Pile (2:0), SneakShow (2:0) and Burn (2:0). Lost 1:2 against Burn...

Creatures
4 Painter's Servant
1 Spellskite

Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Hydroblast
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Transmute Artifact
4 Whir of Invention
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
2 Lotus Petal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

Lands
1 Academy Ruins
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
12 Island

Sideboard
2 Back to Basics
2 Dispel
1 Dragon's Claw
1 Hope of Ghirapur
2 Hydroblast
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thopter Spy Network
1 Tormod's Crypt


The deck felt pretty good and was a lot of fun to play :smile:
Mainboard Jtms did a great job, especially in the grindy matchups. I’d like to fit a second one in the 75. Maybe replacing one Whir or the Transmute?
I believe blasts should be in the sideboard, although i had targets for it in every game :laugh:

Are there any more good targets for Whir of Invention? I wish the activation cost of Universal Solvent would be cheaper... had a hard time finding blasts against Leyline...


PS: Sorry for my (bad) English

[compacta_d]

Played the following list on a small tournament last weekend. Ended up with 3:1, beating Czech Pile (2:0), SneakShow (2:0) and Burn (2:0). Lost 1:2 against Burn...

Creatures
4 Painter's Servant
1 Spellskite

Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Hydroblast
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Transmute Artifact
4 Whir of Invention
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
2 Lotus Petal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

Lands
1 Academy Ruins
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
12 Island

Sideboard
2 Back to Basics
2 Dispel
1 Dragon's Claw
1 Hope of Ghirapur
2 Hydroblast
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thopter Spy Network
1 Tormod's Crypt


The deck felt pretty good and was a lot of fun to play :smile:
Mainboard Jtms did a great job, especially in the grindy matchups. I’d like to fit a second one in the 75. Maybe replacing one Whir or the Transmute?
I believe blasts should be in the sideboard, although i had targets for it in every game :laugh:

Are there any more good targets for Whir of Invention? I wish the activation cost of Universal Solvent would be cheaper... had a hard time finding blasts against Leyline...


PS: Sorry for my (bad) English

I've been wanting to mash in an Aether Spellbomb.

[compacta_d]

How has the testing gone? I jammed a few games at my weekly. Loved the fact I could grindstone myself to search for a painter with an academy ruins in play :laugh: Are you still running the stock list? I'm thinking about trying out a few TNN's and a Jitte.

I've been playing Dredge and now Red storm to gear up for EW.

Daze has been good, but would probably not run it mained. I've picked up more blasts an ensnaring bridge and spellbomb to try out now.

Think the deck just needs more whir targets personally.

[compacta_d]

Are there any more good targets for Whir of Invention? I wish the activation cost of Universal Solvent would be cheaper... had a hard time finding blasts against Leyline...





Aether spellbomb? The new grave hate scry artifact? Spyglass?

Thinking of trying old Tezz in the deck.

[drude1]

So, I am a long time Shortcake (R/w painter) player who has just recently made the switch to a U/R/b based deck. There were a couple of other people wanting to see the list and I thought it makes more sense to post it on this forum than the imperial painter forum as the base is pretty much the same. So, this is where I am at with my list right now:

// Lands
2 Great Furnace
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Underground Sea
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
4 Painter's Servant
4 Goblin Welder
2 Baleful Strix
1 Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Mox Opal
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Intuition
4 Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Kolaghan's Command
SB: 1 Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb

I think I am 14-2 with the deck so far. I had a loss to burn which I think is just a bad MU (haven't found a painter deck that likes burn) and a loss to Shardless BUG where I just got tempo'd out and didn't see a blood moon. I have tried straight u/r painter in the past and, although the speed to combo is much better than shortcake lists, it just felt really fragile. The planeswalkers in this deck give a very good alt win condition and make the deck much more resilient. I can't stress how good Daretti in particular is in this deck. I would like to see a third ensnaring bridge somewhere in the 75 along with a fourth grave hate piece but not sure where to put it. I haven't gotten to actually play with notion thief yet and it may just be cute. That would probably be the first card to go in the SB. For those who expressed interest, please give it some play time and let me know what you think. I am always open to suggestions.

[hellhound]

Just finished a 50 ppl tournament today with mono U painter
Went 3-2-1
Played with 2 back to basics MD, JTMS thopter spy network and 3 blasts SB
beat 2-0 lands, goblins and 4c delver
Lost 1-2 to monored storm and 0-2 to BUG delver
Draw with 4c delver

This deck's a blast of fun to play. Fully satisfied with 3 daze MD

[compacta_d]

List?

[sco0ter]

For those who expressed interest, please give it some play time and let me know what you think. I am always open to suggestions.

I played four games with your list, got 2-2.

Lost hard against Enchantress (I think they had drawn have their library, then Emrakul turn 4)
Lost 0-2 against UW Control (with Intuition + Accumulated Knowledge)

Won against Combo Lands.
Won against Esper Stoneblade.

The losses were also because the deck was colorscrewed. Having Ancient Tomb + Great Furnace + Mountain in hand, while only having UB spells...

I'd cut the Swamp for another Fetchland, because black is only the tertiary color. I never needed Daretti, but I think he's good.

[hellhound]

List?

MD
12 island
1 academy ruins
3 ancient tomb
2 flooded strand
2 polluted delta

4 painter's servant
1 spellskite
1 pithing needle
4 grindstone
3 relic of progenitus*
2 ensnaring bridge

4 whir of invention
2 back to basics*
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 FOW
3 daze
2 spell pierce
2 counterspell*

SB
2 JTMS*
2 thopter spy network
2 llawan
3 hydroblast
2 ratchet bomb
1 tormod's crypt
2 surgical ext.
1 phy. revoker

the *slots are those that could be switched between MD and SB

other notes:
- never missed a probe (i don't think you really need them in this deck)
- not to sure about 3 relics MD and JTMS in side (i'm going to try and switch them)
- counterspell felt too heavy, maybe should be replaced by swan song / flusterstorm / 4th daze / misdirection
- 1 artifact blue land?
- up to 5/6 fetch?
- thirst of knowledge / predict to additional CA vs B based?
- never missed a blast MD and not always sided them in
- 1 aether spellbomb MD?

[drude1]

I played four games with your list, got 2-2.

Lost hard against Enchantress (I think they had drawn have their library, then Emrakul turn 4)
Lost 0-2 against UW Control (with Intuition + Accumulated Knowledge)

Won against Combo Lands.
Won against Esper Stoneblade.

The losses were also because the deck was colorscrewed. Having Ancient Tomb + Great Furnace + Mountain in hand, while only having UB spells...

I'd cut the Swamp for another Fetchland, because black is only the tertiary color. I never needed Daretti, but I think he's good.

I can see where enchantress could be a problem and probably the best reason to keep notion thief in the board. r/w painter always had canonist to slow them down. Maybe this deck needs a similar effect. Then again, I don't know how much I would morph this deck to make enchantress a better MU.

As for color screw, yes, it can always happen with a 3 color deck and I could certainly get behind adding another fetch land. Having said that, I would never keep a hand with 2 red and a colorless source and only blue and black spells in my hand. I also like the one-of basic swamp as it is much easier to fetch your basics and then drop a blood moon out of the board. Yes, black is a tertiary color but an important one later in the game. If anything, I would probably cut one of the ancient tombs or maybe one of the artifact lands for another fetch.

I have played u/w control a couple times now and have not really had much of a problem with that deck. You just have to concentrate on controlling their early threats and landing a planeswalker. You probably are not going to win the MU with the combo unless you hit it really early. However, it isn't hard to control their few threats and try to bait them with pieces of your combo. Grindstone without painter is actually a reasonable win-con against them as well.

thanks for trying the deck though. I appreciate the input.

[keys]

MD
<snip>

other notes:
- never missed a probe (i don't think you really need them in this deck)
- not to sure about 3 relics MD and JTMS in side (i'm going to try and switch them)
- counterspell felt too heavy, maybe should be replaced by swan song / flusterstorm / 4th daze / misdirection
- 1 artifact blue land?
- up to 5/6 fetch?
- thirst of knowledge / predict to additional CA vs B based?
- never missed a blast MD and not always sided them in
- 1 aether spellbomb MD?

Good call on the probes/Dazes.

I like the idea of maindeck Jaces over 2 Relics. That still leaves one to search with Whirr if you need it. You just lose some psuedo-acceleration from Improvise.

Counterspells are slow, but I'm undecided between Flusterstorm/Misdirection/4th Daze. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here.

Not sure about Thirst, since you don't want any of your artifacts in the yard. You could consider Trinket Mage if you want card advantage. He's a good chump blocker, can attack under Bridge, and counters edict effects. Makes Seat of the Synod and Spellbomb better as well.

Do the BEBs even deserve spots in the SB?

I think the 1-of Spellskite in the MD is a bit weak too.

[compacta_d]

Good call on the probes/Dazes.

I like the idea of maindeck Jaces over 2 Relics. That still leaves one to search with Whirr if you need it. You just lose some psuedo-acceleration from Improvise.

Counterspells are slow, but I'm undecided between Flusterstorm/Misdirection/4th Daze. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here.

Not sure about Thirst, since you don't want any of your artifacts in the yard. You could consider Trinket Mage if you want card advantage. He's a good chump blocker, can attack under Bridge, and counters edict effects. Makes Seat of the Synod and Spellbomb better as well.

Do the BEBs even deserve spots in the SB?

I think the 1-of Spellskite in the MD is a bit weak too.

I had similar thoughts.

I liked counterspell.

daze seemed chunky to me as you want UUU for whir.

Main deck tezzeret instead of jace? Or does the dividing of win cons help? maybe a 1/4 split?

flusterstorm has been good for me.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Hello, looking forward to (slowly) acquiring the pieces for this deck.

Speaking of that, I have two card choice related questions:

1) Would y'all recommend some combination of Mishra's Bauble and Predict in the main? If so, where in a UR list?

2) What would y'all recommend for an alternate win-con for thes side against Leyline of Sanctity or (should I really be cursed) Eldrazi Titans? Personally, I'm entertaining 1x Emrakul 1.0, 1x Myr Battlesphere, and 1x Thornbite Staff: the idea of milling myself with the main combo (if that is possible), then using an active Goblin Welder to bring back Staff and equipping it to Welder next turn just so I can mill again and create an infinite army seems hilarious to me. Quite possibly win-more though, as the staff may be an unnecessary aspect, since generating value off of MBS is just as sweet over time.

EDIT: Actually, for q2, I'm thinking Possessed Portal and Myr Battlesphere; play some stax while I swing in.

[CptHaddock]

Hello, looking forward to (slowly) acquiring the pieces for this deck.

Speaking of that, I have two card choice related questions:

1) Would y'all recommend some combination of Mishra's Bauble and Predict in the main? If so, where in a UR list?

2) What would y'all recommend for an alternate win-con for thes side against Leyline of Sanctity or (should I really be cursed) Eldrazi Titans? Personally, I'm entertaining 1x Emrakul 1.0, 1x Myr Battlesphere, and 1x Thornbite Staff: the idea of milling myself with the main combo (if that is possible), then using an active Goblin Welder to bring back Staff and equipping it to Welder next turn just so I can mill again and create an infinite army seems hilarious to me. Quite possibly win-more though, as the staff may be an unnecessary aspect, since generating value off of MBS is just as sweet over time.

EDIT: Actually, for q2, I'm thinking Possessed Portal and Myr Battlesphere; play some stax while I swing in.

I've only been dabbling with the archetype for a short while after top got banned but here are my thoughts.

I wouldn't run Bauble or Predict in the deck. Bauble doesn't really do anything other than enable opals a little bit more now that top is banned. UR Painter isn't really a deck that cares about card quantity, so predict is kind mediocre. You're looking for A + B and between brainstorm, ponder, the search effects and grindstone + goblin welder you should be able to cycle through your deck pretty easily.

I wouldn't be too worried about Leyline, I think that the only deck that you'll commonly find them run in is Sneak and Show. You have access to arguable the most vindicates in the format naturally, Painter + Blasts are great and if those effects are in abundance in your metagame you can always gear your sideboard to beat them i.e. adding bounce spells or potentially splashing a color like W for Wear/Tear and additional hatebear effects. I don't know about the best but some of the better win conditions are the walkers Chandra/JTMS/Tezz since they attack from a different axis or if you're running wurmcoils, just beating them down. Like I said before you can cycle through your deck pretty fast so it's not difficult to find your graveyard hate.

[Rampart]

Bauble is probably just worse then Pyrite Spellbomb too. Both the Nihil Spellbomb and the Pyrite Spellbomb are actually pretty good in a deck with 4 Goblin Welders. Additionally Pyrite can take care of some trouble some creatures or work as a machine gun with Goblin Welder

[CptHaddock]

So question for the crowd that runs the Grim Monolith + Transmute package. I don't own a full playset of Transmutes, would running the wurmcoil + grim monolith package still be decent?

[compacta_d]

So question for the crowd that runs the Grim Monolith + Transmute package. I don't own a full playset of Transmutes, would running the wurmcoil + grim monolith package still be decent?

I'm at the point of being convinced Whir of Invention is better than Transmute Artifact.

Tap not sac.

Similar cost actually. Most times at UUU it's actually cheaper.

Instant speed > Sorcery.

Card often reads :UUU Instant. Search your library for an artifact and put it onto the battlefield.

[Cyanhur]

Hi,

Painter is my heart deck. Since the top ban i Nevers played it.
Last Time i played grixis painter at the eternal in Europe.
Are you sur grixis painter can perf ?

[Fallen_Empire]

I'm at the point of being convinced Whir of Invention is better than Transmute Artifact.

Tap not sac.

Similar cost actually. Most times at UUU it's actually cheaper.

Instant speed > Sorcery.

Card often reads :UUU Instant. Search your library for an artifact and put it onto the battlefield.

+1

I've had success jamming a few TNN's and a Jitte in the main. Whir of Invention is great to fetch Jitte which can also take pressure off of painter servant.

[compacta_d]

+1

I've had success jamming a few TNN's and a Jitte in the main. Whir of Invention is great to fetch Jitte which can also take pressure off of painter servant.

I like that a LOT.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I've only been dabbling with the archetype for a short while after top got banned but here are my thoughts.

I wouldn't run Bauble or Predict in the deck. Bauble doesn't really do anything other than enable opals a little bit more now that top is banned. UR Painter isn't really a deck that cares about card quantity, so predict is kind mediocre. You're looking for A + B and between brainstorm, ponder, the search effects and grindstone + goblin welder you should be able to cycle through your deck pretty easily.

I wouldn't be too worried about Leyline, I think that the only deck that you'll commonly find them run in is Sneak and Show. You have access to arguable the most vindicates in the format naturally, Painter + Blasts are great and if those effects are in abundance in your metagame you can always gear your sideboard to beat them i.e. adding bounce spells or potentially splashing a color like W for Wear/Tear and additional hatebear effects. I don't know about the best but some of the better win conditions are the walkers Chandra/JTMS/Tezz since they attack from a different axis or if you're running wurmcoils, just beating them down. Like I said before you can cycle through your deck pretty fast so it's not difficult to find your graveyard hate.

Understood: for reference, here is the tenative list I'm entertaining.

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Opt
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Force of Will
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors

Any recommendations, particularly over the Probes and Opts (or Preordain, depending on if I think chaining cantrips then responding to LED is worth or not)?

Also, and forgive me for what may be baseless conjecture on the subject of Whir vs Transmute, but I believe it depends on how many LEDs you run: LED can't act as a ritual for Whir unless you happen to draw Whir after cracking LED in response to a cantrip, whereas LED works very well with Transmute in that regard (a Mox Opal can become anything in the main with some mana left over, 2 LEDs and a Transmute turn anything into Wurmcoil engine).

In a similar vein, Gamble may be better with an active Welder, as it has a cheaper mana cost than both Whir and Transmute and doesn't require you to deteriorate a potentially solid board state. For example, T1 Welder, T2 Grindstone, LED, Gamble (Servant)-->LED activate, Grindstone activate-->Welder activate (Grindstone-->Servant) is a win turn 2, albeit a fragile and conditional one.

So, to summarize, Whir is probably better without LEDs, Transmute is probably better with LEDs but without Welder, and Gamble is probably better with both LEDs and Welder.

[Doishy]

In a similar vein, Gamble may be better with an active Welder, as it has a cheaper mana cost than both Whir and Transmute and doesn't require you to deteriorate a potentially solid board state. For example, T1 Welder, T2 Grindstone, LED, Gamble (Servant)-->LED activate, Grindstone activate-->Welder activate (Grindstone-->Servant) is a win turn 2, albeit a fragile and conditional one.

That's actually a super sweet interaction. It also puts into my head running a Punishing Fire package as (in theory) you don't care about lifegain from grove and you can use that as an anti-hatebear / clock suite. Alongside the classic host of countermagic you pack, seems legit.

[compacta_d]

That's actually a super sweet interaction. It also puts into my head running a Punishing Fire package as (in theory) you don't care about lifegain from grove and you can use that as an anti-hatebear / clock suite. Alongside the classic host of countermagic you pack, seems legit.

I have LEDs and never really wanted them in this deck. I feel like (not tested) that intuition with welder is probably still better.

I like that interaction. It is faster, something like that you WOULD want probe to see if coast is clear to super fast wombo combo them.

LEDs tap for 1 when casting Whir. Still fast mana, still not bad. Different interaction.

[CptHaddock]

I'm at the point of being convinced Whir of Invention is better than Transmute Artifact.

Tap not sac.

Similar cost actually. Most times at UUU it's actually cheaper.

Instant speed > Sorcery.

Card often reads :UUU Instant. Search your library for an artifact and put it onto the battlefield.

When we are talking about whirl are we talking about the UR or U versions? I can see whirl being significantly better than transmute especially when you don't have goblin welder. I don't know about the UR version, I guess in most situations it's probably equivalent to an instant speed transmute but just having the ability to go UU entomb is pretty big when you have an active welder.


+1

I've had success jamming a few TNN's and a Jitte in the main. Whir of Invention is great to fetch Jitte which can also take pressure off of painter servant.

In the mono U version? Jitte seems kind of weak when you have 8 creatures in your deck out of which 4 are very mediocre in combat.


Understood: for reference, here is the tenative list I'm entertaining.

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Opt
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Force of Will
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors

Any recommendations, particularly over the Probes and Opts (or Preordain, depending on if I think chaining cantrips then responding to LED is worth or not)?


I don't think that the number of LEDs really effects which tutor effect you want to run. I'd run 1-2 LEDs regardless, it just gives you so many more angles for wins. I've won a bunch of games just because I was able to use LED to combo off before my opponent got their hate pieces online. Same thing in postboard games except you have to be way more cautious about going all in. At the very worst you can do things like crack LED for mana maintaining priority when casting a spell.

Instead of running the opts or gitaxian probes i'd run intuitions, more blasts, cards that will keep you alive like ensnaring or planeswalkers. We don't really have any engine that combos with gitaxian probe and against most decks you should know what you have to play around anyways. If you want to run more cantrips preordain is significantly better than opt. In game 1 you just want to be as fast/consistent as possible and in game 2 you transform into the midrangey/controlly combo deck.

[Cyanhur]

I will probably test this (this weekend) :

3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Saheeli Rai

4 Painter's Servant
2 Baleful Strix
4 Goblin Welder


4 Force of Will
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Intuition
1 Transmute Artifact
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal


1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Inventor's Fair


Sideboard


1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
3 Blood Moon
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Trinisphere
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Sudden Demise
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm

[drude1]

I will probably test this (this weekend) :

3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Saheeli Rai

4 Painter's Servant
2 Baleful Strix
4 Goblin Welder


4 Force of Will
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Intuition
1 Transmute Artifact
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal


1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Inventor's Fair


Sideboard


1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
3 Blood Moon
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Trinisphere
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Sudden Demise
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 FlusterstormYour will have to let us know what you think about Saheeli. Her ultimate should just win you the game (although I would maybe play 1 of spellskite with Saheeli) but it's just so hard to get to (5 turns) and her other abilities kinda suck/she doesn't protect herself.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Cyanhur]

Your will have to let us know what you think about Saheeli. Her ultimate should just win you the game (although I would maybe play 1 of spellskite with Saheeli) but it's just so hard to get to (5 turns) and her other abilities kinda suck/she doesn't protect herself.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

I am not really fan about Saheeli, but i had one slot main deck and i do not know what can i play. Maybe Dack fayden? With welder and bridge it's maybe fine.

[compacta_d]

I'm usually talking mono U.

I have welders and blasts. Need tarns and volcs.

Plan is to run mostly mono U list, fit the 4 welders in and 3-4 blasts main deck.

Deck easily has room for it.

Still on whir over transmute even with welder.

If your deck is majority blue, UUU instant is better than 1UU sorcery+sac.

I'll try some LEDs, but if you transmute crack LED, that's a huge force/daze check. Most of my opponents are usually on blue as well and I won't be passing that check.

Cracking LED to fire grindstone is safer if they're tapped out, but not great with a hand full of cards.

I think mono blue vers probably just plays much slower and different than the multi colored versions. I don't plan on changing THAT part of it by adding the red. Welder gives more resistance to abrupt decay and better ways to destroy pithing needles etc.

I WILL probably add an intuition/Reanimate back up target though.

[polski]

Has anybody tries Padeem, Consul of Innovation?

[kombatkiwi]

// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Artifact
4 Smuggler's Copter
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Pyrite Spellbomb

// 15 Creature
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Combustible Gearhulk
1 Hope of Ghirapur
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
1 Hex Parasite

// 4 Instant
4 Pyroblast

// 21 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Great Furnace
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
5 Mountain
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Mishra's Factory

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

// 4 Sorcery
4 Gamble


Not the worst attempt imo.
Never played this archetype before but in the one match I tried I won game 1 by Welder grinding, and when my opponent played Leyline of the Void in G2 I won by looting all my Welders/Crucible away while attacking with Smuggler's Copter.

It does feel kind of weird to be playing Ensnaring Bridge and Scrapheap Scrounger in the same deck and perhaps there is a problem of trying to do too many things at once.

[drude1]

Took my grixis painter list to a local “big cash” tourney over the weekend. It was 5 rounds of swiss cutting to top 8. I ended up in top 4 before losing to a standard “Honda Civic” grixis delver list.
The deck felt very powerful and resilient. I won through games of people trying to beat me by surgical extracting a part of the combo or needling grindstone. I would just beat them with 5/5’s from Tezzeret or other creature beatdown typically. My losses came at the expense of my mana base, which I will have to address. Anyway, thought I would write a little report. First, here is the list I played:

// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
2 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
1 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
2 [TE] Intuition
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [DTK] Kolaghan's Command
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [EMA] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [DGM] Notion Thief
SB: 1 [C13] Sudden Demise
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience

As for the actual tournament, it went something like this…
Rnd 1 vs U/W/r stoneblade (2-1)
Game 1 I combo’d off very quickly before he really had a chance to do anything. He countered one or two things but I had redundancy
Game 2 he had a million counterspells and removal spells and we were eventually just racing between me trying to naturally grind him out and him ticking up a Jace. The Jace won.
Game 3 was also a battle. We went to time and I had grindstone down but he kept killing my painters and countering my planeswalkers. In our last turns he tapped down to just one mana open on his turn so I went for a painter without backup and he had nothing. Game win.

Rnd 2 vs Bomberman/Mentor combo (0-2)
Played against a guy named Joe. I know he is a good player but I have no idea what he is on. Turn one he drops an ancient tomb and plays a walking ballista on 1. I assume he is on some sort of big eldrazi list (although that’s not his style). Turn 2 he does it again but I have welder in hand and played a pyrite spellbomb on turn 1 so I force his second ballista and take out his first one so my welder can survive. Over the next few turn he plays a million bobbles, Bob, and finds auriok salvagers, buys all his ballistas back and eventually goes off. For future reference, counter the salvagers.
Game 2 I mulligan to an okay hand but not enough mana. I put pithing needle on ballista so my welder can stick around but he drops mentor and makes a bunch of dudes before I can find enough mana to do anything. Lose.
*I’ve actually played this MU before elsewhere and haven’t had problems with it but I knew what was coming and had the mana to participate.

Rnd 3 vs Lands (2-0)
This match-up is still basically an auto-win. Game 1 was actually close. He made a 20/20 Merit Lage quickly but I had a welder and strix out early and then found a Daretti so was able to keep swapping out a daretti token for the strix, draw a card and block with the strix until I found the painter and combo’d out.
Game 2 I had an early Blood Moon which he did get rid of eventually but I just combo’d out again by that time.

Rnd 4 vs G/B/r NicFit brew (2-1)
By now I’ve been able to scout enough so I knew what he was on (generally). Game one I was able to combo out quickly before he really did anything.
Game 2 I actually brought in Blood Moon because I just didn’t think he was expecting them. I mulled and had that, blast and a bunch of land in my hand. He ended up fetching for a couple non-basics but hit my blood moon with thoughtseize before I could play it. He then dropped an early pernicious deed and I was stuck. He ended up playing green sun zenith into a couple of DINOSAURS and beat me down.
Game 3 He got a painter into my graveyard early and surgicaled it away then hit my grindstones (??) with slaughter games. I played a blood moon to strangle his mana a little and then dropped Tezzeret and made 5/5s and he was dead. He did try to get out of it with a burning wish but I had a FoW for the win.

Rnd 5 was able to I.D. into top 8.

Top 8 against Reanimator/Storm (2-1)
My opponent was Dana who again I know is a good player and likes to mix it up. I know he is on some sort of Black splash blue Reanimator/storm combo, kind of like a TinFins variant.
I got rolled game 1. I think I actually got out a bridge but he quickly reanimated at griselbrand, drew a million cards and stormed me out.
Game 2: I obviously bring in the leylines but I don’t see one in opening hand. I mull to 6 and still don’t see one but have FoW, welder, flusterstorm, painter and land and decide to keep. I drop turn 1 welder and he actually passes on turn 1. I drop turn 2 painter on blue to turn on FoW and any card plus flusterstorm for permission. He draws a few turns and does nothing. I eventually eot notion thief with FoW and flusterstorm still in hand and just beat him down 5 points a turn until he is dead.
Game 3 I again don’t see leyline but have combo and FoW in hand so I keep. I end up countering a couple things early and start to assemble combo quickly. He really isn’t doing anything. I try to combo out once and he bounces my painter in response. I try again the second time, this time with blast back up and he has nothing. Win!

Top 4 against Grixis Delver (0-2)
This match was horrible. I basically had a bunch of 3 and 4 drops in my hand and get wasted out of the game before doing anything game 1. Game 2 I had dual lands and blood moon in hand and some permission. My plan was to lock him out. So, turn 1 I play a land and pass. He fetches a dual and attempts to play a deathrite but considering my plan I force it. Turn to a play another land and pass. His turn 2 he plays ANOTHER deathrite and wastes one my lands. From here he wastes cantrips and wastes me some more and plays some threats. I never get to 3 mana and just die. I think if I would have had fetches into basics vs my duals I would have gotten there, but what do you do.

So again, my losses basically were to lack of mana. I didn’t have trouble with color screw but I just didn’t get to enough lands. I think I would try to add a couple more cheap cantrips to even that out. I think the first thing to go would be the K.command. It’s a powerful card but probably not necessary at the expense of finding the combo or the resources to play the combo. I am actually considering trying a Search of Azcanta main as it interacts well with welder and eventually just starts drawing me cards in the mid and late game. . It might just be a little slow and would obviously have to come out when I’m on the blood moon plan. It’s also interesting to me that opponents try to attack my graveyard as much as they do. People are going as far as bringing in Leylines against me which I guess turns off welder but doesn’t do much beyond that. Otherwise I would probably just try to fit 2 copies of ponder in there to even out my draws.
The sideboard seemed pretty good and leyline/Helm is the only thing that I can think of against the big eldrazi decks. I don’t know about Sudden Demise and Toxic Deluge. I might replace one of them with the k.command but I also like having mass removal. I would also like to have some sort of canonist effect as well that is an artifact but not white. I’ll have to look at my options. Again, any ideas or input would certainly be welcome.
Hmmm…. This got kinda long. Sorry.

[drude1]

Has anybody tries Padeem, Consul of Innovation?
This card actually doesn't seem bad. I've never played with it but I think it would be worth trying. It's spendy for legacy but it's effect is nice and isn't easily hit by removal. At 1/4 it's actually not a horrible wall either.

[Darjeeling]

Got T8 at a 43 person event with a Grixis list over the weekend. A little tired of new-Miracles so decided to give this deck a shot again. With all the Surgicals and Delver/Pile running around, I decided I wanted a backup plan:

12 Creatures
4 Baleful Strix
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant

5 Planeswalkers
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 Darretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

9 Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Intuition

12 Artifacts
4 Grindstone
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
2 Mox Opal
1 Nihil Spellbomb

22 Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Great Furnace
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain

Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 By Force
2 Pyroblast
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Will
1 Tormod's Crypt

All I wanted to do was play against fair decks. Alas, that was not the case. The ThopterSword package felt alright and adds some cute interactions, especially alongside Goblin Welder. However, it may be too cute for its own good, especially because the inclusion of Strix and Foundry led me to cut Ancient Tomb because too many opening hands were very clunky with it in the deck, which in turn slows down possible Grindstone kills.

Matchups:
R1: 2-1 ANT.
Lost G1 on her turn 2, she probably overboarded and I just put the Grind combo on the table G2 and G3.

R2: 2-1 Infect.
Lost G1 due to no Strix. G2 and G3 Strix(es) holds the fort while I assemble the Grind combo with permission. I never saw a Blighted Agent, so that was fortunate.

R3: 2-0 Maverick. -ThopterSword really shone here.
G1 Tezzet digs me into redundant Painters after Qasali Pridemage takes out the first one. G2 I get him with ThopterSword.

R4: 2-1 Sneak and Show.
Lose G1 to typical Show and Tell things. G2 I manage to Spyglass Sneak and put a Bridge down. A Surgical reveals he has no Echoing Truths in. G3 he starts with Leyline of Sanctity in play, and goes for an early JtMS but I have the Pyroblast. On his followup Show he puts in Sneak while I put in Spyglass and see his hand of 3 fatties. I name Sneak, thankful he was going to try to kill me that turn. He Needles Welder soon after and I Revoke Griselbrand, beginning my Revoker + Welder beatdown. Eventually he Shows again to put in Emrakul, but I put in Bridge, then Shows another time to put in Griselbrand. At this point, I know his only out is to constantly discard Emrakul to handsize and hope I don't have any more win conditions. Close, but I have 1 Pyroblast left somewhere in my deck to blast his Leyline, 1 Tezzeret, and 1 Foundry. Tezzeret draws out his in-hand Force and we stare back and forth until I eventually Surgical his Forces and land Thopter Sword, eventually making enough Thopters to overcome Griselbrand's lifelink.
R5+6: ID.
We split top8 for ~50 credit each.

[polski]

Took my grixis painter list to a local “big cash” tourney over the weekend. It was 5 rounds of swiss cutting to top 8. I ended up in top 4 before losing to a standard “Honda Civic” grixis delver list.
The deck felt very powerful and resilient. I won through games of people trying to beat me by surgical extracting a part of the combo or needling grindstone. I would just beat them with 5/5’s from Tezzeret or other creature beatdown typically. My losses came at the expense of my mana base, which I will have to address. Anyway, thought I would write a little report. First, here is the list I played:

// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
2 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
1 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
2 [TE] Intuition
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [DTK] Kolaghan's Command
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [EMA] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [DGM] Notion Thief
SB: 1 [C13] Sudden Demise
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience

As for the actual tournament, it went something like this…
Rnd 1 vs U/W/r stoneblade (2-1)
Game 1 I combo’d off very quickly before he really had a chance to do anything. He countered one or two things but I had redundancy
Game 2 he had a million counterspells and removal spells and we were eventually just racing between me trying to naturally grind him out and him ticking up a Jace. The Jace won.
Game 3 was also a battle. We went to time and I had grindstone down but he kept killing my painters and countering my planeswalkers. In our last turns he tapped down to just one mana open on his turn so I went for a painter without backup and he had nothing. Game win.

Rnd 2 vs Bomberman/Mentor combo (0-2)
Played against a guy named Joe. I know he is a good player but I have no idea what he is on. Turn one he drops an ancient tomb and plays a walking ballista on 1. I assume he is on some sort of big eldrazi list (although that’s not his style). Turn 2 he does it again but I have welder in hand and played a pyrite spellbomb on turn 1 so I force his second ballista and take out his first one so my welder can survive. Over the next few turn he plays a million bobbles, Bob, and finds auriok salvagers, buys all his ballistas back and eventually goes off. For future reference, counter the salvagers.
Game 2 I mulligan to an okay hand but not enough mana. I put pithing needle on ballista so my welder can stick around but he drops mentor and makes a bunch of dudes before I can find enough mana to do anything. Lose.
*I’ve actually played this MU before elsewhere and haven’t had problems with it but I knew what was coming and had the mana to participate.

Rnd 3 vs Lands (2-0)
This match-up is still basically an auto-win. Game 1 was actually close. He made a 20/20 Merit Lage quickly but I had a welder and strix out early and then found a Daretti so was able to keep swapping out a daretti token for the strix, draw a card and block with the strix until I found the painter and combo’d out.
Game 2 I had an early Blood Moon which he did get rid of eventually but I just combo’d out again by that time.

Rnd 4 vs G/B/r NicFit brew (2-1)
By now I’ve been able to scout enough so I knew what he was on (generally). Game one I was able to combo out quickly before he really did anything.
Game 2 I actually brought in Blood Moon because I just didn’t think he was expecting them. I mulled and had that, blast and a bunch of land in my hand. He ended up fetching for a couple non-basics but hit my blood moon with thoughtseize before I could play it. He then dropped an early pernicious deed and I was stuck. He ended up playing green sun zenith into a couple of DINOSAURS and beat me down.
Game 3 He got a painter into my graveyard early and surgicaled it away then hit my grindstones (??) with slaughter games. I played a blood moon to strangle his mana a little and then dropped Tezzeret and made 5/5s and he was dead. He did try to get out of it with a burning wish but I had a FoW for the win.

Rnd 5 was able to I.D. into top 8.

Top 8 against Reanimator/Storm (2-1)
My opponent was Dana who again I know is a good player and likes to mix it up. I know he is on some sort of Black splash blue Reanimator/storm combo, kind of like a TinFins variant.
I got rolled game 1. I think I actually got out a bridge but he quickly reanimated at griselbrand, drew a million cards and stormed me out.
Game 2: I obviously bring in the leylines but I don’t see one in opening hand. I mull to 6 and still don’t see one but have FoW, welder, flusterstorm, painter and land and decide to keep. I drop turn 1 welder and he actually passes on turn 1. I drop turn 2 painter on blue to turn on FoW and any card plus flusterstorm for permission. He draws a few turns and does nothing. I eventually eot notion thief with FoW and flusterstorm still in hand and just beat him down 5 points a turn until he is dead.
Game 3 I again don’t see leyline but have combo and FoW in hand so I keep. I end up countering a couple things early and start to assemble combo quickly. He really isn’t doing anything. I try to combo out once and he bounces my painter in response. I try again the second time, this time with blast back up and he has nothing. Win!

Top 4 against Grixis Delver (0-2)
This match was horrible. I basically had a bunch of 3 and 4 drops in my hand and get wasted out of the game before doing anything game 1. Game 2 I had dual lands and blood moon in hand and some permission. My plan was to lock him out. So, turn 1 I play a land and pass. He fetches a dual and attempts to play a deathrite but considering my plan I force it. Turn to a play another land and pass. His turn 2 he plays ANOTHER deathrite and wastes one my lands. From here he wastes cantrips and wastes me some more and plays some threats. I never get to 3 mana and just die. I think if I would have had fetches into basics vs my duals I would have gotten there, but what do you do.

So again, my losses basically were to lack of mana. I didn’t have trouble with color screw but I just didn’t get to enough lands. I think I would try to add a couple more cheap cantrips to even that out. I think the first thing to go would be the K.command. It’s a powerful card but probably not necessary at the expense of finding the combo or the resources to play the combo. I am actually considering trying a Search of Azcanta main as it interacts well with welder and eventually just starts drawing me cards in the mid and late game. . It might just be a little slow and would obviously have to come out when I’m on the blood moon plan. It’s also interesting to me that opponents try to attack my graveyard as much as they do. People are going as far as bringing in Leylines against me which I guess turns off welder but doesn’t do much beyond that. Otherwise I would probably just try to fit 2 copies of ponder in there to even out my draws.
The sideboard seemed pretty good and leyline/Helm is the only thing that I can think of against the big eldrazi decks. I don’t know about Sudden Demise and Toxic Deluge. I might replace one of them with the k.command but I also like having mass removal. I would also like to have some sort of canonist effect as well that is an artifact but not white. I’ll have to look at my options. Again, any ideas or input would certainly be welcome.
Hmmm…. This got kinda long. Sorry.

Any new upgrade? :wink:

[compacta_d]

I've been thinking it's possible the 4 missing cards were Tormods crypt and 3 blasts the whole time with 4 card missing from the SB.

I've been playing with Tezz and bridge maindeck and been great. Moving to SB to bring in those 4.

Played 4 ratchet bombs in the 75 with some success. Pulling 2 for Perilous Voyage SB.

Mono U is much less all in and the awkward tempo is difficult for me as a very aggressive player. Not used to having to counterspell and combo at same time.

[drude1]

Any new upgrade? :wink:

Yeah, I've made a few different changes. First, like I had mentioned, I wanted more draw/cantrips so I ended up cutting the k.command, a Daretti and an opal for 2 ponder and a search for azcanta. I really liked the changes as I evened out my draws more and lowered my curve. Daretti is very strong, as is k.command, but at 3 cc mixed colors they were occasionally stranded in my hand. I also increased the island count. The next issue I discovered is that the leyline/helm combo was hard to hit. So I've liked the black leylines in the board but was counting on either naturally drawing into the 1 helm to combo with or having welder + intuition (although I did have 1 game where I won by intuitioning for 2 welder and the helm and was able to drop welder and weld in helm next turn). I realized that that wasn't a great way to hit the combo and decided to try a transmute artifact. I've really liked them so far. I decided to cut the ponders and try 2 transmutes and added the third strix back into the deck. I was netting way more cards by swapping strixes from the board with welders than what I was getting from ponder. Search for Azcanta has also been really good as it often adds a land on a critical turn and combos well with welder. Having said that, I could also see cutting that and another card (an intuition?) for the ponders again. With transmute, I also switched e.e to ratchet bomb. So, the current list I am on is this:



// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
3 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [SOM] Mox Opal
1 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb
1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
2 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 Search for Azcanta

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [EMA] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [DGM] Notion Thief
SB: 1 [C13] Sudden Demise
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience

The foundry/sword combo is also interesting but not sure how I would fit it in. It seems good against burn due to the life gain but if I'm digging for a combo I probably need to concentrate on one or the other. Will try to test it some though.

[polski]

Yeah, I've made a few different changes. First, like I had mentioned, I wanted more draw/cantrips so I ended up cutting the k.command, a Daretti and an opal for 2 ponder and a search for azcanta. I really liked the changes as I evened out my draws more and lowered my curve. Daretti is very strong, as is k.command, but at 3 cc mixed colors they were occasionally stranded in my hand. I also increased the island count. The next issue I discovered is that the leyline/helm combo was hard to hit. So I've liked the black leylines in the board but was counting on either naturally drawing into the 1 helm to combo with or having welder + intuition (although I did have 1 game where I won by intuitioning for 2 welder and the helm and was able to drop welder and weld in helm next turn). I realized that that wasn't a great way to hit the combo and decided to try a transmute artifact. I've really liked them so far. I decided to cut the ponders and try 2 transmutes and added the third strix back into the deck. I was netting way more cards by swapping strixes from the board with welders than what I was getting from ponder. Search for Azcanta has also been really good as it often adds a land on a critical turn and combos well with welder. Having said that, I could also see cutting that and another card (an intuition?) for the ponders again. With transmute, I also switched e.e to ratchet bomb. So, the current list I am on is this:



// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
3 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [SOM] Mox Opal
1 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb
1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
2 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 Search for Azcanta

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [EMA] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [DGM] Notion Thief
SB: 1 [C13] Sudden Demise
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience

The foundry/sword combo is also interesting but not sure how I would fit it in. It seems good against burn due to the life gain but if I'm digging for a combo I probably need to concentrate on one or the other. Will try to test it some though.

do you think that are necesary toxic deluge and sudden demise?

[CptHaddock]

The foundry/sword combo is also interesting but not sure how I would fit it in. It seems good against burn due to the life gain but if I'm digging for a combo I probably need to concentrate on one or the other. Will try to test it some though.

I'm trying out a 1/1 split in UR (just splashing with 3 opals) as my side plan in game 1 and it's been pretty medium. I don't know if it's better or worse than just playing wurmcoil or turning into UR superfriends postboard but it's fun to have 2/3 Goblin Welders. I feel like if you want to incorporate more of it you actual need to alter the manabase of the deck heavily.

How have the search for azcantas been?

[polski]

I'm trying out a 1/1 split in UR (just splashing with 3 opals) as my side plan in game 1 and it's been pretty medium. I don't know if it's better or worse than just playing wurmcoil or turning into UR superfriends postboard but it's fun to have 2/3 Goblin Welders. I feel like if you want to incorporate more of it you actual need to alter the manabase of the deck heavily.

How have the search for azcantas been?
Can you share your list?

[CptHaddock]

Can you share your list?

I'm not convinced on some of the numbers yet so the 1 offs are still up in the air. Other than that I think the list is pretty solid, as silly as it sounds I was finding 4 ponders to just be too much. You already have so many ways to dig for your pieces that it's really not needed. If I was going to go to a tournament tomorrow I think I would go -Thopter/Sword +1 Ponder/+1 Dack Fayden or Spellskite.

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
4 Goblin Welder
2 Transmute Artifact
3 Intuition
2 Island
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Mox Opal
4 Force of Will
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 City of Traitors
1 Mountain
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Dack Fayden
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction

[polski]

Yeah, I've made a few different changes. First, like I had mentioned, I wanted more draw/cantrips so I ended up cutting the k.command, a Daretti and an opal for 2 ponder and a search for azcanta. I really liked the changes as I evened out my draws more and lowered my curve. Daretti is very strong, as is k.command, but at 3 cc mixed colors they were occasionally stranded in my hand. I also increased the island count. The next issue I discovered is that the leyline/helm combo was hard to hit. So I've liked the black leylines in the board but was counting on either naturally drawing into the 1 helm to combo with or having welder + intuition (although I did have 1 game where I won by intuitioning for 2 welder and the helm and was able to drop welder and weld in helm next turn). I realized that that wasn't a great way to hit the combo and decided to try a transmute artifact. I've really liked them so far. I decided to cut the ponders and try 2 transmutes and added the third strix back into the deck. I was netting way more cards by swapping strixes from the board with welders than what I was getting from ponder. Search for Azcanta has also been really good as it often adds a land on a critical turn and combos well with welder. Having said that, I could also see cutting that and another card (an intuition?) for the ponders again. With transmute, I also switched e.e to ratchet bomb. So, the current list I am on is this:



// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
3 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [SOM] Mox Opal
1 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb
1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
2 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 Search for Azcanta

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [EMA] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [DGM] Notion Thief
SB: 1 [C13] Sudden Demise
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience

The foundry/sword combo is also interesting but not sure how I would fit it in. It seems good against burn due to the life gain but if I'm digging for a combo I probably need to concentrate on one or the other. Will try to test it some though.

Which are in your opinion the best and the worst pairings?
can you share your sideboarding plan?
regards

[CptHaddock]

Which are in your opinion the best and the worst pairings?
can you share your sideboarding plan?
regards

I can't answer the 2nd question but for the first. The worst matchups are by in large any deck that plays the shuffling Eldrazi and decks that play a massive amount of removal with the exception of 4c Control, you can usually go under 4c game 1 and then just overwhelm them with threats game 2. Other than that the tempo matchups can be a little shaky but you can often times grind them out of removal/counterspells.

I can't speak for the grixis versions but in general I think that you are favored in the combo matchups and against some of the slower control decks. I think that the best matchups are Lands, Eldrazi and other nonblue decks since you can basically get away with whatever the hell that you want.

[polski]

I can't answer the 2nd question but for the first. The worst matchups are by in large any deck that plays the shuffling Eldrazi and decks that play a massive amount of removal with the exception of 4c Control, you can usually go under 4c game 1 and then just overwhelm them with threats game 2. Other than that the tempo matchups can be a little shaky but you can often times grind them out of removal/counterspells.

I can't speak for the grixis versions but in general I think that you are favored in the combo matchups and against some of the slower control decks. I think that the best matchups are Lands, Eldrazi and other nonblue decks since you can basically get away with whatever the hell that you want.
What do you think about delver decks?

[CptHaddock]

What do you think about delver decks?


I can't answer the 2nd question but for the first. The worst matchups are by in large any deck that plays the shuffling Eldrazi and decks that play a massive amount of removal with the exception of 4c Control, you can usually go under 4c game 1 and then just overwhelm them with threats game 2. Other than that the tempo matchups can be a little shaky but you can often times grind them out of removal/counterspells.

I can't speak for the grixis versions but in general I think that you are favored in the combo matchups and against some of the slower control decks. I think that the best matchups are Lands, Eldrazi and other nonblue decks since you can basically get away with whatever the hell that you want.

I've had mixed results but that is what happens when you play an A+B combo deck against delver. I think that RUG is the most favorable as they only have 2 ways of disrupting you (removal + counterspells). As for Grixis and BUG, they're harder but winnable. The key is just playing around wasteland and grinding through their disruption. These are the matchups where having a backup plan of either turbo wurmcoil, tezz, etc really shine. If you find an opportunity to go under these decks before they get setup, that's also a reasonable way to win.

[merfolkotpt]

For those that tested Whir of Invention, what was the result, I think the card has promise, but it does seem like it constrains you mana wise on number of non blue lands. I don't know if you want to try and play it with no ancient tombs, or perhaps with some number of pentad prism, maybe even with mox diamond?

I do like the idea, especially when I realized that LED has no tap symbol on it, so works very well with the card. I think being able to end step get painter/grindstone into play without having to expose yourself to surgical extraction (I am looking at you intuition) seems strong, but it means a big change to the deck. It, however, might be worth it.

EDIT:
First pass at a whir list:

//Combo
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Tormod's Crypt

//Protection
4 Force of Will
3 Goblin Welder
3 Pyroblast

//Draw and Tutor
3 Transmute Artifact
3 Whir of Invention
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

//Back Up Plans
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ensnaring Bridge

//Mana
3 Pentad Prism
2 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Inventors' Fair

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Spellskite
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 1 Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Chandra, Pyromaster

[drude1]

Which are in your opinion the best and the worst pairings?
can you share your sideboarding plan?
regards

So I played at the LGS last night with this list:


// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Mountain
2 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
3 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
1 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Intuition
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb
1 [XLN] Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [DGM] Notion Thief
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 [KLI] Engineered Explosives

Ended up in Top 4 (only a 4 round tourney and I went 3-1 with good tie-breakers) with one loss to Death & Taxes. I beat a U/W control deck, an affinity deck and a nic-fit deck featuring academy rector, which was actually pretty interesting. I ended up cutting the the sudden demise and toxic deluge for a second bridge and an e.e which was a mistake. I think I would actually go back to 2 x fiery confluence and maybe a third spell like deluge in the SB, cutting the bridge, e.e. and maybe notion thief.
The second mox opal is what I would consider the "flex" spot in the main. Opal doesn't feel right here either. I think I would either run a second bridge or second pyrite spellbomb. That card is surprisingly good.

As for sideboarding, my strategy is pretty loose still. Basically, anything that depends somewhat heavily on the graveyard (including all the decks with deathrite AND snapcaster) will see leylines come in. The blood moons are for 4 color decks (like leovold), eldrazi, lands, and generally anything else that relies heavily on non-basics. The burn spells would obviously be for heavy creature/tribal decks, particularly d & t. This is the one match-up that I think got worse when I switched away from shortcake. I'm just not packing as much creature removal and it's the primary reason I want to add the second pyrite spellbomb. Needle is just a good utility card, particularly against equipment, planeswalkers, thespian's stage and pernicious deed (which I see a good amount of locally). The rest seem pretty self-explanatory. Just as an aside, helm of obedience is particularly good against big Eldrazi and show & tell decks, even without the leyline out and especially if you have an active welder. I'm still really liking this list. Delver decks can be tough but the blue has actually really helped. Blood Moon is usually your strongest card against those decks.

Finally, I really don't like Whir of Invention. I know people are talking about the card more in the context of a blue/red build, and that deck definitely has the mana base to support it better. In this deck though, 3 blue mana is tough and I would have to have up to 7 mana open go get a helm, vs 2 mana and a welder (or relatively dispensable artifact) for the same thing using transmute.

[compacta_d]

For those that tested Whir of Invention, what was the result, I think the card has promise, but it does seem like it constrains you mana wise on number of non blue lands. I don't know if you want to try and play it with no ancient tombs, or perhaps with some number of pentad prism, maybe even with mox diamond?


Whir is my new favorite card. I play mono blue though.

Considering going white instead of red. Access to STP, canonist and tutor is obvious. Feel like canonist can help with counter wars.

Also thopter combo, though I dislike that combo for personal, nonstrategy reasons.

[shallowend]

Can someone direct me to current mono blues lists?

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

[compacta_d]

Can someone direct me to current mono blues lists?

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

the original was on mtggoldfish/hareruya by koikawa shun

other than posting in the thread this is what I'll be playing tomorrow night:

4 stone
4 painter
4 whir
4 bstorms
4 ponder
2 ratchet bomb
1 ensnaring bridge
1 blue tezz
1 spellskite
2 spell pierce
3 counterspell
1 flusterstorm
1 dismember (testing)
4 fow
2 Search for azcanta (testing)
2 relic of prog
1 tormods crypt
6 fetch
9 island
3 tomb
1 academy ruins

sb
2 surgical
2 llawan empress
2 thopter spy network
1 needle
1 phyrexian revoker
2 perilous voyage
3 blue elemental blast/hydro
1 hope og ghirapur
1 vedalken shackles

[CptHaddock]

I need to test Whirl out a little more but it's been pretty medium for me. Often times when i'm trying to go for a quick combo i've been unable to cast it, however I like it a lot more in postboard games where i'm boarding out intuitions and don't want to expose myself to surgical extraction. 1 card that has really impressed me has been search for azcanta, in the slower matchups it flat out just wins you the game with a couple of activations.

[compacta_d]

I need to test Whirl out a little more but it's been pretty medium for me. Often times when i'm trying to go for a quick combo i've been unable to cast it, however I like it a lot more in postboard games where i'm boarding out intuitions and don't want to expose myself to surgical extraction. 1 card that has really impressed me has been search for azcanta, in the slower matchups it flat out just wins you the game with a couple of activations.

Whir has been the best card for me. Mono blue isn't all gas like other color combos IMO. It's more responsive. The instant speed and artifact convoke is insane and usually gets anything I want turn 3 ish for UUU.

I imagine if you play other things like LED it gets better bc you can whir and still crack it. But I don't think counterspell mono blue wants leds.

[CptHaddock]

Ended up getting 16th at a 72 person tournament for a black lotus. My 2 losses were 0-2 to Jund and 0-2 to D&T. Jund did Jund things and in the D&T matchup my opponent had the soul read tapping out for a prelate on 2. Other than that I did have a match where my maverick opponent brought in Dryad Militant to stop grindstone. We called a judge and the judge ruled that because the Militant was exiling the cards the grindstone effect stopped and for some reason even after years of playing grindstone I didn't appeal that. Still kicking myself for completely missing that. For the record grindstone doesn't care where the cards are going, only if they share the same color. If grindstone cared where the cards are going, RIP wouldn't work in the old Rw builds.

As a plus I got to play with some sweet wurmcoil tokens though. :tongue:

https://i.imgur.com/XmA7RPO.jpg

[CptHaddock]

For those of you playing the Grixis variants how is your Grixis Delver matchup? On paper it the strixes look wonderful against any delver variant but the manabase looks a little shaky. I've been struggling a lot recently vs the newer versions of Grixis Delver that are running snapcasters, kcommands, and/or more than the standard 1-2 grudges postboard. Wurmcoil also is pretty medium when your opponent can kcommand and later snapcaster kcommand it.

I'm currently playing Chandra (1 main, 1 board), Wurmcoil (1 in the board) and Blood Moons as my haymakers in this matchup, any suggestions for other haymakers for MU?

[merfolkotpt]

My current untested list (not grixis) is:

//Combo
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Tormod's Crypt

//Protection
4 Force of Will
3 Goblin Welder
3 Pyroblast

//Draw and Tutor
4 Transmute Artifact
3 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

//Back Up Plans
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ensnaring Bridge

//Mana
3 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Opal
3 Seat of the Synod
3 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Spellskite
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
SB: 1 Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Chandra, Pyromaster

The idea is to focus less on the GY hence no intuition and only 3 welder, to help fight against the preponderance of surgical extractions that are all over the place. Also the ability to lean on ensnaring bridge against a lot of different decks (DnT, Delver variants). Tezz taking the place of Intuition as our second tutor effect instead of whir (easier to cast, better with other cards, alternate win condition).

Any thoughts about this?

[Darklingske]

Is there somewhere a thread specifically about the mono-U version of Painter? Or do we just adress that deck in this topic?

[polski]

Any news with the grixis or ur version?

[compacta_d]

I think most variations are posted here.

I think the problem is the combo can work in any color combo deck. So far I've seen:

Mono u, mono r, rw, rwb, br, ubr, UB, ur

I'm thinking of going UW myself.

[Cyanhur]

I think most variations are posted here.

I think the problem is the combo can work in any color combo deck. So far I've seen:

Mono u, mono r, rw, rwb, br, ubr, UB, ur

I'm thinking of going UW myself.

I am curious about that!
Maybe you can have helm com in this version + painter?

I think main deck with back to basic is fine!

[compacta_d]

I am curious about that!
Maybe you can have helm com in this version + painter?

I think main deck with back to basic is fine!

I'd probably bring it in post sb with another RIP.

i have enough stuff to test it out, but will probably wait a while. working on slivers now. :P

[CptHaddock]

The idea is to focus less on the GY hence no intuition and only 3 welder, to help fight against the preponderance of surgical extractions that are all over the place. Also the ability to lean on ensnaring bridge against a lot of different decks (DnT, Delver variants). Tezz taking the place of Intuition as our second tutor effect instead of whir (easier to cast, better with other cards, alternate win condition).

Any thoughts about this?

I actually really like this idea, i've reached the same conclusion about intuition although I think that it's still worth running atleast 1 as it's fantastic game 1. My only worry would be trying to cast Tezz without monolith hands especially against decks that punish mana like delver and d&t. If you haven't tried search for azcanta yet i'd really recommend it. It filters a little early on and allows you to grind really well in the late game. Not to mention that is basically finds everything but painter/welder/wurmcoil. I'm going to try 3 transmutes, 1 search and 1 intuition for my next run around. In paper that sounds close to whatever the ideal tutor combinations are for the current metagame. I've thought about a more control version of the deck but that always just leads me to wonder why i'm not splashing black for strixes.

Imo any version of this deck that doesn't run red is probably just doing it wrong. The benefit of playing red is that you get a lot of really high impact cards i.e. welder, blasts, planeswalkers, tutors, etc. Since this format is naturally very blue heavy and you're running painters main, the downside of running blast effects main is substantially lowered.

Edit:
My current list:

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
4 Goblin Welder
3 Transmute Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Island
2 Great Furnace
3 Mox Opal
4 Force of Will
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Seat of the Synod
1 City of Traitors
1 Mountain
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Intuition

2 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroclasm
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Ensnaring Bridge

[drude1]

[QUOTE=CptHaddock;1032869]I actually really like this idea, i've reached the same conclusion about intuition although I think that it's still worth running atleast 1 as it's fantastic game 1. My only worry would be trying to cast Tezz without monolith hands especially against decks that punish mana like delver and d&t. If you haven't tried search for azcanta yet i'd really recommend it. It filters a little early on and allows you to grind really well in the late game. Not to mention that is basically finds everything but painter/welder/wurmcoil. I'm going to try 3 transmutes, 1 search and 1 intuition for my next run around. In paper that sounds close to whatever the ideal tutor combinations are for the current metagame. I've thought about a more control version of the deck but that always just leads me to wonder why i'm not splashing black for strixes.

Imo any version of this deck that doesn't run red is probably just doing it wrong. The benefit of playing red is that you get a lot of really high impact cards i.e. welder, blasts, planeswalkers, tutors, etc. Since this format is naturally very blue heavy and you're running painters main, the downside of running blast effects main is substantially lowered.

I agree 100%. Why would play a painter deck and not play red blasts and welders? Those are some of the strongest cards in the deck! I also agree with search for azcanta. I've been running 1 copy for a while now and am always happy to see it. It's also funny how aggressive my opponents have been in removing or countering it. It apparently poses a serious threat. It really shines against the control match-ups (u/w) where the card advantage is crucial. I do take it out against fast combo or sometimes if I am bringing in Blood Moons.

I am also on 1 x intuition and 2 x transmute artifact. With the back-up plan in my deck of the helm-leyline combo, transmute is really good at finding my helm. I'm still not convinced of the intuition either but occasionally when you can play it with a welder on board it's really good.

I'm still on a Grixis list with 1 Darreti and 2 Tezzeret (UB) in the main and have really been liking this list. I bet I win a third of my games by just ultimating Tezzeret. I've also been playing a couple copies of Collective Brutality in my SB and have really liked it. These could possibly be k.command as well but the 1 x mana cheaper is the targeted hand removal is preferable right now. I won a game last night where I had a leyline and welder on board and pitched the helm in my hand to collective brutality, got to see their hand and then welded in helm and won on the spot. The interactions of this deck are so much fun.

[Cyanhur]

I am also on 1 x intuition and 2 x transmute artifact. With the back-up plan in my deck of the helm-leyline combo, transmute is really good at finding my helm. I'm still not convinced of the intuition either but occasionally when you can play it with a welder on board it's really good.

I'm still on a Grixis list with 1 Darreti and 2 Tezzeret (UB) in the main and have really been liking this list. I bet I win a third of my games by just ultimating Tezzeret. I've also been playing a couple copies of Collective Brutality in my SB and have really liked it. These could possibly be k.command as well but the 1 x mana cheaper is the targeted hand removal is preferable right now. I won a game last night where I had a leyline and welder on board and pitched the helm in my hand to collective brutality, got to see their hand and then welded in helm and won on the spot. The interactions of this deck are so much fun.


What did you cut for 2 collective in sideboard? The notion thief and witch card?

[drude1]

What did you cut for 2 collective in sideboard? The notion thief and witch card?I actually just cut the two flusterstorm. I'd only being them in against storm and they would just get stripped. The brutalities are more proactive and generally better in most other match ups. Besides, notion thief had just been too much fun. He has actually just taken over a couple games for me now.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[kinda]

Could this deck abuse the new induced amnesia card? Amnesia targeting yourself and then blowing it up for value.

4 painters servant
3 grindstone
3 tezzeret

4 abjure
4 fow
4 reb
2 pyroblast
3 non artifact pyroclasm

3 perilous research
3 induced amnesia
4 brainstorm

23 mana sources

[CptHaddock]

That card is way too cute. Although playing it and then blasting it with the target trigger on the stack to get rid of your opponent's hand seems like living the dream.

[Fallen_Empire]

A pretty sweet mono-blue painter just top 8'ed a small monthly: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=18056&d=311996&f=LE

20 LANDS
1 Academy Ruins
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Flooded Strand
11 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

5 CREATURES
4 Painter's Servant
1 Spellskite

23 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
1 Reshape
2 Spell Pierce
1 Transmute Artifact
4 Whir of Invention

12 OTHER SPELLS
2 Back to Basics
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Relic of Progenitus

SIDEBOARD
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Hydroblast
1 Intuition
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Show and Tell
1 Vedalken Shackles

Seems fun. Love the inclusion of Reshape. Has anyone tried the transformational sb plan?

[Cyanhur]

Hi,

I would like to try something similar with red.
But it is diffcult to build the mana base 19 or 20 land.
I am trying to put 3 moon in main deck.
3 show And tell + 3 emrakul in side

[compacta_d]

A pretty sweet mono-blue painter just top 8'ed a small monthly: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=18056&d=311996&f=LE

20 LANDS
1 Academy Ruins
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Flooded Strand
11 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

5 CREATURES
4 Painter's Servant
1 Spellskite

23 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
1 Reshape
2 Spell Pierce
1 Transmute Artifact
4 Whir of Invention

12 OTHER SPELLS
2 Back to Basics
4 Grindstone
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Relic of Progenitus

SIDEBOARD
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Hydroblast
1 Intuition
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Show and Tell
1 Vedalken Shackles

Seems fun. Love the inclusion of Reshape. Has anyone tried the transformational sb plan?

Haven't tried the transformational SB but otherwise a pretty stock mono U list.

[Darklingske]

I would like to try something similar with red.
But it is diffcult to build the mana base 19 or 20 land.

Try something like this:
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
2x Volcanic Island
4x Island
1x Mountain
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Great Furnace
3x Ancient Tomb

I am trying to put 3 moon in main deck.
If you're trying to do this, then the above manabase will hurt you a lot. Which MU are you trying to improve with the addition of the moons?

3 show And tell + 3 emrakul in side
Why the transformational SB?

[CptHaddock]

Why the transformational SB?

I'm wondering this as well. It's cool to see a throwback to some of the OG Painter plans but the S&T/Emrakul plan seems really weak with all the decks that you would want to bring it in for. Grixis delver is playing blast effects naturally and will probably bring them in, and if they are usually playing edicts that comes in as well. The combo is fast enough to compete with most combo decks and in the S&T you probably don't want to be casting S&T when omniscience is a frequently played card.

[Cyanhur]

Try something like this:
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Polluted Delta
2x Volcanic Island
4x Island
1x Mountain
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Great Furnace
3x Ancient Tomb

If you're trying to do this, then the above manabase will hurt you a lot. Which MU are you trying to improve with the addition of the moons?

Why the transformational SB?

What thinking to create a liste with Show and tell for the suprise after side but CptHaddock said right. It is bad idea.

I tested your list Drude1, it's really fine. Maybe i will try it in a tornament.

[drude1]

What thinking to create a liste with Show and tell for the suprise after side but CptHaddock said right. It is bad idea.

I tested your list Drude1, it's really fine. Maybe i will try it in a tornament.

That's cool. I've really had good success with it. It attacks from multiple angles when necessary which I really like. I've made a couple revisions, mostly in the SB. This is where I am at with it currently:



// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
3 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [SOM] Mox Opal
1 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb
1 [XLN] Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DGM] Notion Thief
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 2 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 2 [EMN] Collective Brutality
SB: 1 [XLN] Sorcerous Spyglass

Not sure which version you are playing. Let me know what you think.

[CptHaddock]

That's cool. I've really had good success with it. It attacks from multiple angles when necessary which I really like. I've made a couple revisions, mostly in the SB. This is where I am at with it currently:

Not sure which version you are playing. Let me know what you think.

How have you been finding the hymn matchups with your list? I'm on UR but i'm very tempted to dump flusterstorms and play more proactive cards. I find that having the ability to fluster an early cantrip/hymn in the blue matchups has been extremely useful.

[Cyanhur]

That's cool. I've really had good success with it. It attacks from multiple angles when necessary which I really like. I've made a couple revisions, mostly in the SB. This is where I am at with it currently:



// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
3 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [SOM] Mox Opal
1 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb
1 [XLN] Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DGM] Notion Thief
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 2 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 2 [EMN] Collective Brutality
SB: 1 [XLN] Sorcerous Spyglass

Not sure which version you are playing. Let me know what you think.

I am testing the last version with 2 Brutality.

Can you explain me your change in sideboard? Why this choice? Sorcerous i think, it's nice to take information. Fiery conflu? for witch match up eldrazi?

I have 2 tornament in 10 days. I think the bigger i will play Sneak, but the second i will play grixis painter.

[Cyanhur]

Hi,

I did some tests with grixis drude 1, i think the list can do something. I played vs infect, grixis control and eldrazi. Only grixis before side, it's a bit difficult.

I also did some test with mono blue version, it's really good too. Just i am not sure about some car in the deck.

Compacta why 2 perilous voyage? Why not jace in the deck?

[SDBobPlissken]

I am testing the last version with 2 Brutality.

Can you explain me your change in sideboard? Why this choice? Sorcerous i think, it's nice to take information. Fiery conflu? for witch match up eldrazi?

I have 2 tornament in 10 days. I think the bigger i will play Sneak, but the second i will play grixis painter.

I feel like smugglers copter belongs in this deck.

[compacta_d]

Hi,

I did some tests with grixis drude 1, i think the list can do something. I played vs infect, grixis control and eldrazi. Only grixis before side, it's a bit difficult.

I also did some test with mono blue version, it's really good too. Just i am not sure about some car in the deck.

Compacta why 2 perilous voyage? Why not jace in the deck?

Things I was trying out. Echoing Truth is better IMO.

I like Jace. Didn't have it. Tezzeret gets wincons straight up rather than brainstorming for them. Can also grab bridge.


Smugglers copter makes a lot of sense.

[Cyanhur]

Things I was trying out. Echoing Truth is better IMO.

I like Jace. Didn't have it. Tezzeret gets wincons straight up rather than brainstorming for them. Can also grab bridge.


Smugglers copter makes a lot of sense.

Okok for Truth.

Why smugglers? because we have to get some creature for animate and just painter i think isn't enough.

[drude1]

Hi,

I did some tests with grixis drude 1, i think the list can do something. I played vs infect, grixis control and eldrazi. Only grixis before side, it's a bit difficult.

I also did some test with mono blue version, it's really good too. Just i am not sure about some car in the deck.

Compacta why 2 perilous voyage? Why not jace in the deck?

Hey, sorry I've been away from this chat board for a while. I went to the team sealed Grand Prix last weekend. It did NOT go well but that did give me the chance to play some legacy in side events. Played a couple different decks but definitely did the best with the grixis painter list. Had one loss to burn. That's the one MU that got significantly worse when moving away from RW painter. The collective brutalities are good in that MU because you can kill a creature, gain 2 life and take out one of their burn spells all in one swoop. I also brought in trinisphere and in my 3rd game I had LED and trinisphere in opener along with welder. He let turn 1 welder live and I played and cracked led to get 3-sphere in graveyard and then welded it in. It stalled him significantly but I never saw a painter to go off.
I've really liked the alt win con of leyline/helm. It has won me several games. It's still not super fast though and I feel like I need more in my SB to slow down the red and blue-red decks.
As for brutality, it just felt that it did more overall than flusterstorm. It proactively acts as a duress against storm and other combo decks. It kills pesky creatures (eg.deathrite) and again in a pinch against decks like burn it might be able to buy a turn with the life gain. Seems like even where flusterstorm was supposed to be really good (storm), it would just get ripped out of my hand before i could use it effectively.
The confluences are mainly for creature removal and/or artifact removal. They are great against D&T. I will say the have been feeling a little slow though against some decks and I'm considering something more like pyroclasm just to come down faster. The lack then of artifact hate can really hurt sometimes though. Abrade might be another option but I wanted more of a sweeper. Of course K.command is always good but for 1 more mana confluence just does so much more.

[Cyanhur]

I did 4 round tornament with mono blue painter.

Win 2-0 vs turbo darkdept
G1 speed combo t3
G2 lock the game with spellskite And bridge then combo

Loose 1-2 vs elfes

G1 : elfe kill me t3 with natural order, didnt find force
G2 : lock the game with painter And cephalid then combo
G3 : elfe combo t3

Win 2-1 vs burn

I hate this match up with painter.
G1 : fast burning me
G2 : i keep a hand with 4 counterspell (force pierce fluster)
G3 : same a game 2 i keep a Hand with many counter

I was lucky he didnt find his side

Win 2-0 vs infect

G1 : combo t3
G2 : combo t3


Enjoy to play monoblue

[Bash]

I did 4 round tornament with mono blue painter.

Win 2-0 vs turbo darkdept
G1 speed combo t3
G2 lock the game with spellskite And bridge then combo

Loose 1-2 vs elfes

G1 : elfe kill me t3 with natural order, didnt find force
G2 : lock the game with painter And cephalid then combo
G3 : elfe combo t3

Win 2-1 vs burn

I hate this match up with painter.
G1 : fast burning me
G2 : i keep a hand with 4 counterspell (force pierce fluster)
G3 : same a game 2 i keep a Hand with many counter

I was lucky he didnt find his side

Win 2-0 vs infect

G1 : combo t3
G2 : combo t3


Enjoy to play monoblue


Nice, what was your list please ? :smile:

[Cyanhur]

Nice, what was your list please ? :smile:

I do not remember the last card in my sideboard, i am not at home to check but i played this :


1 Tezzeret the Seeker

4 Painter's Servant
1 Spellskite

4 Force of Will
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Back to Basics
4 Whir of Invention
2 Counterspell
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
1 Pithing Needle
4 Brainstorm
4 Grindstone
4 Ponder
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm


Collec


12 Island
1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted delta
3 Ancient Tomb


Sideboard


1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Spellskite
2 Thopter Spy Network
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt

[Cyanhur]

I need your opinion, Is it crazy to play grixis painter or blue painter for a GP? I will go to Birmingham.
I have some others deck but i have more experience with painter (Mono red, Rw, grixis or blue).

[Darklingske]

I need your opinion, Is it crazy to play grixis painter or blue painter for a GP? I will go to Birmingham.
I have some others deck but i have more experience with painter (Mono red, Rw, grixis or blue).

I think that knowing your deck is better then just switching to a deck that is (maybe) better positioned in such a wide and diverse field as a GP. Play what you like and know >>> play what you think will be better.
I'm going to Birmingham too and will play some outside of the box deck, just because I hate being part of the flock of sheep that just play the "best deck".

[Hisa]

So, Search for Azcanta has made me pick the deck up again. Search is no Top, but its still real fuckin' good. I played around with lists that people have posted here, added some tutors back in (Intuition and Transmute), played a few leagues, remembered why I hate the tutors (they don't do anything), and went back to midrange control.

Anyway, I just 5-0ed a league with this list. Don't ask me about the lightning greaves, 'cause I don't know. I put it in to test, only drew it once off of Chandra when it wasn't remotely relevant. Probably it should be a third Search. I only dropped one game in the league (to BR reanimator) everything else was 2-0. The sideboard is a mess, its a weird aglomeration of the port of my SB which was current before the top ban and stuff I pulled out of this thread.

I played:
D&T (2-0)
Grixis Delver (2-0)
BR Reanimator (2-1)
Shitty Miracles with no Top (2-0)
Grixis Delver (2-0)

List:

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Inventor's Fair
1 Island
1 Mountain

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Baleful Strix

4 Grindstone
3 Mox Opal
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
2 Search for Azcanta

3 Tezzeret Agent of Brolas
2 Saheeli Rai

SIDEBOARD:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
1 Chandra Torch of Defiance
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Bloodmoon


Like I said, the sideboard is a mess. Maindeck also needs some tweaking, especially on the one-ofs. I'd love to figure out how to get Hope of Ghirapur back in the list. There's a good argument to be made for Tormod's Crypt over Nihil Spellbomb, but I wanted something I could recur with Welder for value in grindy games. I still really don't know about the Boots. In theory a Welder with pants on is the stone nuts, I have no idea about the practicality of it.

[CptHaddock]

So, Search for Azcanta has made me pick the deck up again. Search is no Top, but its still real fuckin' good. I played around with lists that people have posted here, added some tutors back in (Intuition and Transmute), played a few leagues, remembered why I hate the tutors (they don't do anything), and went back to midrange control.

This card is amazing, if you aren't playing it in U versions of painter you're very much doing something wrong.

[drude1]

So, Search for Azcanta has made me pick the deck up again. Search is no Top, but its still real fuckin' good. I played around with lists that people have posted here, added some tutors back in (Intuition and Transmute), played a few leagues, remembered why I hate the tutors (they don't do anything), and went back to midrange control.

Anyway, I just 5-0ed a league with this list. Don't ask me about the lightning greaves, 'cause I don't know. I put it in to test, only drew it once off of Chandra when it wasn't remotely relevant. Probably it should be a third Search. I only dropped one game in the league (to BR reanimator) everything else was 2-0. The sideboard is a mess, its a weird aglomeration of the port of my SB which was current before the top ban and stuff I pulled out of this thread.

I played:
D&T (2-0)
Grixis Delver (2-0)
BR Reanimator (2-1)
Shitty Miracles with no Top (2-0)
Grixis Delver (2-0)

List:

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Seat of the Synod
2 Great Furnace
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Inventor's Fair
1 Island
1 Mountain

4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Baleful Strix

4 Grindstone
3 Mox Opal
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
2 Search for Azcanta

3 Tezzeret Agent of Brolas
2 Saheeli Rai

SIDEBOARD:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid
1 Chandra Torch of Defiance
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Bloodmoon


Like I said, the sideboard is a mess. Maindeck also needs some tweaking, especially on the one-ofs. I'd love to figure out how to get Hope of Ghirapur back in the list. There's a good argument to be made for Tormod's Crypt over Nihil Spellbomb, but I wanted something I could recur with Welder for value in grindy games. I still really don't know about the Boots. In theory a Welder with pants on is the stone nuts, I have no idea about the practicality of it.

Interesting list. I've played most of these cards at some time, minus some particularly interesting choices. Speaking of which, what's up with Saheeli Rai? It seems like most of the other playable 3 drop planeswalkers would be better there, ie. Dack Fayden or Daretti. What attracts you to that card? Also, do you feel like you regularly have a creature to crew the smuggler's copters with only 10 total creatures? How good have they been? They do help flip Search for Azcanta, but that's why it would seem that dack would also be better. How are the bad MU's with this list such as burn or U/R delver?
Anyway, it's somewhat similar to what I'm playing now as well so I am definitely interested. Thanks for the list. And I agree, Search for Azcanta is the real deal and fits particularly well with goblin welders.

[drude1]

Also, I totally understand people's disdain for cards like transmute artifact and intuition. Both cards feel super clunky. However, they do lend themselves to some play lines that just don't exist without them (particularly involving welder). Also, when you are playing certain one-of cards like ensnaring bridge (or you want to switch into leyline/helm combo) those cards are sometimes a necessary evil.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Hisa]

Interesting list. I've played most of these cards at some time, minus some particularly interesting choices. Speaking of which, what's up with Saheeli Rai? It seems like most of the other playable 3 drop planeswalkers would be better there, ie. Dack Fayden or Daretti. What attracts you to that card? Also, do you feel like you regularly have a creature to crew the smuggler's copters with only 10 total creatures? How good have they been? They do help flip Search for Azcanta, but that's why it would seem that dack would also be better. How are the bad MU's with this list such as burn or U/R delver?
Anyway, it's somewhat similar to what I'm playing now as well so I am definitely interested. Thanks for the list. And I agree, Search for Azcanta is the real deal and fits particularly well with goblin welders.


So this is pretty similar to a list I was doing well with (there's a bunch of write up I did around page 29 of this thread) before the top ban. My basic take on the deck is that it functions way better as a planeswalker control deck with a combo in it (sort of how Twin used to function in Modern) than as a hard combo deck.

I changed Dack for Saheeli Rai and haven't looked back. Dack, helps you dig, but isn't threatening against 90% of the field. You ultimate Dack and... Nothing happens. Saheeli digs, can get value with her -2 and wins the game with her Ultimate. She's less good at digging that Dack, and she has less Welder synergy, but did much more of what I was hoping for. I like Daretti, but he's super hard on the mana base and the blue card count for FoW is already super low.

Copter is one of the best cards in the deck, no exaggeration. It almost always trades with at least one card (a counterspell or a delver) and if you get to attack or block with it you feel so far ahead. It turns your 1 power bros into a clock, and often puts opponents in a very reasonable Tezz range. It attacks Jace. Unfortunately, with only ten creatures, I'm not sure you can run more than two.

I haven't found UR Delver to be a bad MU for the deck. I don't have my playtest notes in front of me, but IIRC the worst Delver variant is Canadian. I have found the bad MUs to be t1/t2 combo decks -- Belcher, Oops, Turbo Depths, TES (but not ANT), etc.

[GradStudent]

So this is pretty similar to a list I was doing well with (there's a bunch of write up I did around page 29 of this thread) before the top ban. My basic take on the deck is that it functions way better as a planeswalker control deck with a combo in it (sort of how Twin used to function in Modern) than as a hard combo deck.

I changed Dack for Saheeli Rai and haven't looked back. Dack, helps you dig, but isn't threatening against 90% of the field. You ultimate Dack and... Nothing happens. Saheeli digs, can get value with her -2 and wins the game with her Ultimate. She's less good at digging that Dack, and she has less Welder synergy, but did much more of what I was hoping for. I like Daretti, but he's super hard on the mana base and the blue card count for FoW is already super low.

Copter is one of the best cards in the deck, no exaggeration. It almost always trades with at least one card (a counterspell or a delver) and if you get to attack or block with it you feel so far ahead. It turns your 1 power bros into a clock, and often puts opponents in a very reasonable Tezz range. It attacks Jace. Unfortunately, with only ten creatures, I'm not sure you can run more than two.

I haven't found UR Delver to be a bad MU for the deck. I don't have my playtest notes in front of me, but IIRC the worst Delver variant is Canadian. I have found the bad MUs to be t1/t2 combo decks -- Belcher, Oops, Turbo Depths, TES (but not ANT), etc.

how about a stream next time you play online?

[Hisa]

how about a stream next time you play online?

I actually just built a new machine and am not set up for it at the moment. That being said, I'll try and get it together in the next week or two and stream some leagues.

[GradStudent]

cool, leave your twitch name and ill add you

[drude1]

So this is pretty similar to a list I was doing well with (there's a bunch of write up I did around page 29 of this thread) before the top ban. My basic take on the deck is that it functions way better as a planeswalker control deck with a combo in it (sort of how Twin used to function in Modern) than as a hard combo deck.

I changed Dack for Saheeli Rai and haven't looked back. Dack, helps you dig, but isn't threatening against 90% of the field. You ultimate Dack and... Nothing happens. Saheeli digs, can get value with her -2 and wins the game with her Ultimate. She's less good at digging that Dack, and she has less Welder synergy, but did much more of what I was hoping for. I like Daretti, but he's super hard on the mana base and the blue card count for FoW is already super low.

Copter is one of the best cards in the deck, no exaggeration. It almost always trades with at least one card (a counterspell or a delver) and if you get to attack or block with it you feel so far ahead. It turns your 1 power bros into a clock, and often puts opponents in a very reasonable Tezz range. It attacks Jace. Unfortunately, with only ten creatures, I'm not sure you can run more than two.

I haven't found UR Delver to be a bad MU for the deck. I don't have my playtest notes in front of me, but IIRC the worst Delver variant is Canadian. I have found the bad MUs to be t1/t2 combo decks -- Belcher, Oops, Turbo Depths, TES (but not ANT), etc.

I guess I will just have to trust that Saheeli is better, although I don't know that I agree that dack's ultimate doesn't do anything. And if you are you using the argument that Saheeli just wins the game with her ultimate, why not just play Jace? The burn based MU's still seem really bad, but I think the fast combo decks could more easily be addressed with a few tweaks to the sideboard. I will have to play with smuggler's copter a little more. I did like it when I was playing with it previously. Just had difficulty turning it on sometimes.

[Cyanhur]

cool, leave your twitch name and ill add you

When you can Hisa tell us i will follow you too.

I really want a competitive list, actually i am testing mono blue on MTGO.

But i love grixis painter.

[drude1]

Ok, so I've been playing with a list that is basically the love child of Hisa's list and my previous list and it is looking like this:


// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
2 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb
2 [XLN] Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
2 [KLD] Smuggler's Copter

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 2 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 2 [EMN] Collective Brutality
SB: 1 [KLD] Chandra, Torch of Defiance

I went back to two transmute in the board after getting blown out a couple times by eldrazi. You REALLY NEED the bridge in that MU. Otherwise, here are my thoughts...

a. smuggler's copters are actually the nut. They have been so incredibly good. They attack very well, block very well, can't get eaten out of the graveyard by deathrite and turning one into a 5/5 with tezz is stone cold nuts. I have occasionally had a little trouble turning it on but now having 14 cards main that do so, it hasn't been bad. Very strong edition.

b. inventor's fair has also been surprisingly good. It's pretty slow, but again in the late game it can get you exactly what you need to close out a game. Definitely worth the one slot.

c. as we've all discussed, search for azcanta is obviously good and a second one is even better. Likely wouldn't play 3 though.

d. deck actually feels like it need more answers to creatures, particularly deathrite. I am playing 1 pyrite spellbomb which I really like but I could see playing either another one of those, another ensnaring bridge or something to keep my life total up.

e. Playing revoker as another one of main mostly for the fast combo MU's and because it's another creature to turn on the copters. It's been good but obviously not relevant in every MU.

f. I played with dack a little while (didn't try saheeli) but had a really hard time keeping him alive. Both he and saheeli don't protect themselves very well and they just always died after 1-2 activations. At least tezz can make a 5/5 to act as a wall against attackers. I've also been playing Daretti main and really like him. I really have not had any significant mana issues and he's actually easier to cast under a blood moon than tezz (obviously). He does a decent job of protecting himself and is great creature/artifact removal. Again, I really think a second bridge is a good idea. I may cut either the revoker or one FoW to make room.

g. Hisa, I again know what you mean with the transmutes, but they just feel so necessary. They actually have the same feel as enlightened tutor in the r/w list. You feel like you are neutering yourself a little by playing it but you really need the tutor effect. Not sure how to get around this.

Thanks again for putting up your list. It's helped be get rid of some of the chaff in mine.

[Hisa]

I guess I will just have to trust that Saheeli is better, although I don't know that I agree that dack's ultimate doesn't do anything. And if you are you using the argument that Saheeli just wins the game with her ultimate, why not just play Jace? The burn based MU's still seem really bad, but I think the fast combo decks could more easily be addressed with a few tweaks to the sideboard. I will have to play with smuggler's copter a little more. I did like it when I was playing with it previously. Just had difficulty turning it on sometimes.


The problem I have with both Jace (in addition to his CMC) and Daretti is the stress they put on the mana. UU is a big part of the reason I don't like transmutes and whir. Daretti makes me want to run another black source and Vault of Whispers is already the worst land in the deck. Getting either of those color combinations on t2 or t3 (or even t4 or t5) can really hamstring your mana development and leave you in a bad place in the following turns.





Ok, so I've been playing with a list that is basically the love child of Hisa's list and my previous list and it is looking like this:


// Lands
1 [MR] Great Furnace
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
3 [KTK] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
2 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [MR] Pyrite Spellbomb
2 [XLN] Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
2 [KLD] Smuggler's Copter

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 2 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 2 [EMN] Collective Brutality
SB: 1 [KLD] Chandra, Torch of Defiance

I went back to two transmute in the board after getting blown out a couple times by eldrazi. You REALLY NEED the bridge in that MU. Otherwise, here are my thoughts...

a. smuggler's copters are actually the nut. They have been so incredibly good. They attack very well, block very well, can't get eaten out of the graveyard by deathrite and turning one into a 5/5 with tezz is stone cold nuts. I have occasionally had a little trouble turning it on but now having 14 cards main that do so, it hasn't been bad. Very strong edition.

b. inventor's fair has also been surprisingly good. It's pretty slow, but again in the late game it can get you exactly what you need to close out a game. Definitely worth the one slot.

c. as we've all discussed, search for azcanta is obviously good and a second one is even better. Likely wouldn't play 3 though.

d. deck actually feels like it need more answers to creatures, particularly deathrite. I am playing 1 pyrite spellbomb which I really like but I could see playing either another one of those, another ensnaring bridge or something to keep my life total up.

e. Playing revoker as another one of main mostly for the fast combo MU's and because it's another creature to turn on the copters. It's been good but obviously not relevant in every MU.

f. I played with dack a little while (didn't try saheeli) but had a really hard time keeping him alive. Both he and saheeli don't protect themselves very well and they just always died after 1-2 activations. At least tezz can make a 5/5 to act as a wall against attackers. I've also been playing Daretti main and really like him. I really have not had any significant mana issues and he's actually easier to cast under a blood moon than tezz (obviously). He does a decent job of protecting himself and is great creature/artifact removal. Again, I really think a second bridge is a good idea. I may cut either the revoker or one FoW to make room.

g. Hisa, I again know what you mean with the transmutes, but they just feel so necessary. They actually have the same feel as enlightened tutor in the r/w list. You feel like you are neutering yourself a little by playing it but you really need the tutor effect. Not sure how to get around this.

Thanks again for putting up your list. It's helped be get rid of some of the chaff in mine.


I'm glad you're having so much success!

I haven't played against Eldrazi since the top ban. That being said between having a combo they don't really interact with and painter shutting off 40% of their mana base and baleful strix (with welder) and the blood moons in the board I have found the Eldrazi matchup to be incredibly favorable. It's definitely possible to lose, especially if they are on the play and get a chalice draw, but it feels like a 65%+ matchup. All of your cards interact so well with them.

I feel like seventeen blue cards for FoW is the absolute minimum. You're at 16. Have you noticed any problems? I would also be sorely tempted to swap a land for a third Mox Opal in your list.

I am 100% going to swap EE for Ratchet Bomb, it seems infinitely better with Welder. I'm not sure if I like Pyrite Spellbomb over Nihil Spellbomb main deck. They do approximately the same thing against DRS, and both have broader applications vs the field (nihil vs combo and decks with reshuffle fatties and pyrite vs fair decks). Maybe the solution is to run both.

My twitch is https://www.twitch.tv/bhisa . I haven't streamed in a while, and I'm getting reset up now. Hopefully sometime this week or next.

[GradStudent]

congrats dude.
Also
looks like Gerry Thompson is a fan of the list lol
https://twitter.com/G3RRYT/status/965013295425048577

[gibsonjunkie]

I was playing ANT online yesterday and ran into someone playing the Grixis build of this deck. Seems like a neat build, and they recommended I pop in here to say hello.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[CptHaddock]

Has casting Tezz been difficult with 19 lands? I frequently run into problems with just the UR version of trying to get to 4 cmc between wastelands and other soft counters.

Just for my own interest how is spellskite supposed to work with kcommand? If my opponent chooses the destroy target artifact and the deal 2 damage to target creature modes I should be able to redirect both of those to spellskite right?

[kombatkiwi]

Just for my own interest how is spellskite supposed to work with kcommand? If my opponent chooses the destroy target artifact and the deal 2 damage to target creature modes I should be able to redirect both of those to spellskite right?

Correct

[CptHaddock]

Correct

Neat, guess this means that spellskite is bugged on MTGO. So much for testing it in the Czech Pile/Grixis Control matchups.

[Cyanhur]

Neat, guess this means that spellskite is bugged on MTGO. So much for testing it in the Czech Pile/Grixis Control matchups.

Spellskite is not bugged because you can not redirect both on spellskite because the spell is resolve in the same time then spellskite is destroy before you can redirect.

[Hisa]

Neat, guess this means that spellskite is bugged on MTGO. So much for testing it in the Czech Pile/Grixis Control matchups.

Relevant thread here:

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/604966-spellskite-and-kolaghans-command

[CptHaddock]

Spellskite is not bugged because you can not redirect both on spellskite because the spell is resolve in the same time then spellskite is destroy before you can redirect.

That's not how kcommand works though. Once the spell resolves both actions happen at the same time. Since both modes can independently target you should be able to redirect both modes to my spellskite since he's a valid target for both modes both portions of the card should be redirected.

Hisa's post just confirms that the card is indeed bugged on mtgo.



The spell has multiple instances of the word "target".

601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she announces those targets. The same target can’t be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word “target” on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word “target” in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word “target” (as long as it fits the targeting criteria)...

Spellskite is a valid target for "target artifact" and "target creature or player", so it's perfectly legal to target Spellskite with both modes.

[Cyanhur]

That's not how kcommand works though. Once the spell resolves both actions happen at the same time. Since both modes can independently target you should be able to redirect both modes to my spellskite since he's a valid target for both modes both portions of the card should be redirected.

Hisa's post just confirms that the card is indeed bugged on mtgo.

That strange a friend confirm me we cant because we have to keep 2 target and not the same.

[compacta_d]

That strange a friend confirm me we cant because we have to keep 2 target and not the same.

If a spell is modal and has "target" twice printed, then spellskite can change each target.

If the spell or ability only says "target" once, like elder deep fiend, or Forked bolt, then it does NOT work.

Worth noting you can target anything on the stack with spellskite.

[Cyanhur]

If a spell is modal and has "target" twice printed, then spellskite can change each target.

If the spell or ability only says "target" once, like elder deep fiend, or Forked bolt, then it does NOT work.

Worth noting you can target anything on the stack with spellskite.

Okok thanks!

I saw you drude1 yesterday and many painter player on your stream.
What is the best choice when the meta game is many grixis 4c or delver deck?
Blue painter calice or Hisa deck?

[drude1]

Hey, for those of you watching the stream today here is the second list I was playing...


// Lands
2 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [UNH] Island
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Badlands
4 [KTK] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [UL] Goblin Welder
2 [C16] Baleful Strix

// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
3 [IA] Pyroblast
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [C15] Brainstorm
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 [AL] Force of Will
1 [AQ] Transmute Artifact
1 [CN2] Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
1 [XLN] Search for Azcanta/Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
2 [KLD] Smuggler's Copter
4 [CH] Blood Moon
3 [KLI] Lotus Petal

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
SB: 2 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 2 [EMN] Collective Brutality
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [UL] Engineered Plague


I might switch out the engineered plague for something else such as spellbomb or cursed scroll. Want to have creature removal that hits deathrite.
Anyway, I should be on again either late tonight or tomorrow morning. Twitch account is Rude_Eternal.

[Darklingske]

I've been trying the grixis list for a few FNM's and honestly, it made me feel horrible. Never in any game have I had the feeling of being in control or ahead. It was more like I was always on the backfoot and struggling to remain in the game. Welder get's bolted or pushed almost immediately. Walkers didn't survive long with flying delvers and the second part of the combo always got countered. It just didn't feel strong. I was playing against Grixis Delver, UR-Delver and BUG-delver for the most of the time and maybe those are just bad MU, but if that is the case, then I don't think Grixis Painter is a smart choice in the current meta here. I'm switching again to the mono-U list.

[CptHaddock]

What problems are you having in the matchups? What does your list look like?

UR Delver is just a glorified burn deck with counterspells so if you're playing a grindy version of the deck the matchup shouldn't be favorable. BUG and Grixis Delver have been fine for me, the 19 land grixis delver decks that are playing multiple copies of snapcaster and kcommand are unwinnable but that variant is so fringe in the metagame at large. These matchups just come down to slowing down and developing in the early game and you absolutely have an advantage in the late. Or if you see an opportunity in the early game just take it. If you're having trouble with these matchups i'd recommend playing a couple spellskites in your main, and a couple of removal spells in your board.

I'm not really sure what you are gaining by playing mono blue painter unless you are playing the chalice version.

[drude1]

I've been trying the grixis list for a few FNM's and honestly, it made me feel horrible. Never in any game have I had the feeling of being in control or ahead. It was more like I was always on the backfoot and struggling to remain in the game. Welder get's bolted or pushed almost immediately. Walkers didn't survive long with flying delvers and the second part of the combo always got countered. It just didn't feel strong. I was playing against Grixis Delver, UR-Delver and BUG-delver for the most of the time and maybe those are just bad MU, but if that is the case, then I don't think Grixis Painter is a smart choice in the current meta here. I'm switching again to the mono-U list.

I haven't played the mono blue painter list so I don't know how it plays out, but welders are just redundancy for the combo and the walkers are win cons if you can't combo with painter (eg. emrakul). Also just remember that if nothing else Tezzeret just turns into a 5/5 creature that can go on the offensive. If he lives a turn then you usually have two 5/5's that can just win the game. I'm not sure how playing the mono blue list fixes the problems you otherwise complained about. They can still just as easily counter the second part of your combo or save all that creature removal they were playing on the welder to just kill your painter. Now if you are playing chalice then obviously you can shut off a bunch of their cards right away which has its own advantages and disadvantages. I know that this is really going to sound like I am tooting my own horn, but the reason I've been playing a grixis painter list with 4 main blood moons is basically for the same reason. I wasn't having very good luck with the grixis control painter list either but 4 blood moon creates the same problem for your opponents that chalice does. But you can also play your own 1 drops. I've been having much more success with that list. It also feels like you are just dropping bombs on your opponent a lot more as well. Just something else you could try.

[Darklingske]

I haven't played the mono blue painter list so I don't know how it plays out... I'm not sure how playing the mono blue list fixes the problems you otherwise complained about. They can still just as easily counter the second part of your combo or save all that creature removal they were playing on the welder to just kill your painter. Now if you are playing chalice then obviously you can shut off a bunch of their cards right away which has its own advantages and disadvantages.
I know that this is really going to sound like I am tooting my own horn, but the reason I've been playing a grixis painter list with 4 main blood moons is basically for the same reason. Just something else you could try.
It could just be own subjective feelings (probably is) but I felt more at ease with the mono-U list and more in control overall.
I haven't tried moon in a grixis list. Isn't it too much of a negative effect for our 3 colour manabase to run 4 main?
I'm gonna run the mono-U list with Chalice now. Maybe I'll find the ideal configuration (for me) some day, but until then, I'll keep testing and switching it up. And please,do keep testing all the different builds and posting the results. I'm having so much fun with the different lists (be it with or without frustrations and bad beats) :cool:

[kombatkiwi]

Caleb Durward was streaming yesterday with a mono red list with 4 mono-red Daretti

It was 4 moon and 0 Chalice
4 Welder
7(?) Artifact fatty (Wurmcoil, Sundering Titan, Battlesphere at least x2 each, I think at one point he was also trying Combustible Gearhulk but I don't think that card is good)
4 Painter 4 Grindstone 4 Lotus Petal 2-3 Mox Opal, Great Furnace
Sol Lands
4 Faithless Looting seemed like a very important card and in the end he was even trying 1-2 Tormenting Voice

Overall quite similar to the deck drude1 is playing
If you imagine -2 Tezzeret -1 Azcanta -1 Black Daretti +4 Red Daretti
-4 Brainstorm +4 Faithless Looting
-2 Copter +2 Tormenting Voice
- Counterspells +Big Artifact Creatures, and there you go.

Faithless looting has much more synergy with Welder than Brainstorm, and after that decision it makes some sense to add big bomb artifact creatures and Daretti
In mono R there isn't an obvious good substitute for Baleful Strix, and so it's probably slightly harder to make Copter work (Bomat Courier???). Tormenting Voice didn't seem very good but overall the rest of the deck seemed decent

[shadowgripper]

I've recently picked up this deck as of a couple weeks ago. I've always had a soft spot for Painter. One of my first legacy decks was mono-red painter, mostly all in on the combo with some disruption. I've tried other builds of Painter, such as a more prison-based deck or a hyper combo deck (like mono-blue), but all of those fell short of consistently picking up matchups wins... or they just weren't my style.

Then I discovered Hisa's list on the forums here (list for ref: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/946496 ) and fell in love. It plays like a midrange deck that creates a lot of value and threatens a combo kill, as well as presenting a unique disruption package. I took the list to a weekly event and went 4-0. I then made some changes, adjusting the manabase to accommodate more Baleful Strix and kept doing well.

I played the below list at a legacy event yesterday, going 5-0 in swiss, then ID to top 8, then lost immediately afterwards against Storm.

Grixis Painter
4 Goblin Welder
4 Baleful Strix
2 Smuggler's Copter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Pyroblast
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Mox Opal
3 Grindstone
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Inventors' Fair

Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Collective Brutality
1 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
2 Blood Moon
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ghirapur Aether Grid

I still like the list, but want to adjust the manabase to support the color package better. I want to swap the Tomb, Furnace, and Mountain for another Delta, a Vault of Whispers, and a Spire of Industry. My updated list is kept current, here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/947408

Let me know your thoughts. Not sure how to make the Storm matchup better.

- Zac