[Deck] Neo Dragon Stompy

[vikram]

I was toying around with playing a deck like this. It's MUD but with a light splash of red for Covetous Dragon (great evasive beater), Goblin Welder (revives countered, sacced, discarded or destroyed artifact bombs) Seething Song (great accelerant) and Moon effects and Firespout postboard.

What do you guys think? I would appreciate any suggestions and input.

5 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
2 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal

4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
3 Seething Song

4 Goblin Welder
2 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves

4 Keldhona Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Covetous Dragon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Angel
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Collossus

Another possibility I am considering is cutting the Goblin Welder, Voltaic Key, Phyrexian Revoker, Platinum Angel and some Covetous Dragon to play 4 Chalice of the Void, 3 Blood Moon, 3 Trinisphere and 3 Lodestone Golem.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

This deck doesn't resemble Dragon Stompy in the slightest. DStomp is all about dropping a game-winning disruption piece on Turn 1 and then beating on the opponent's ass with hellbent creatures. This deck has ZERO disruption aside from the Phyrexian Revokers and Sundering Titan.

Really, this is just a weaker version of Red MUD.

[vikram]

How exactly is it weaker than MuD. It plays more bombs.

If you want disruption, then like I wrote in the OP... Just cut the Goblin Welder, Voltaic Key, Phyrexian Revoker, Platinum Angel and some Covetous Dragon to play 4 Chalice of the Void, 3 Blood Moon, 3 Trinisphere and 3 Lodestone Golem.

[ns2973]

How exactly is it weaker than MuD. It plays more bombs.

If you want disruption, then like I wrote in the OP... Just cut the Goblin Welder, Voltaic Key, Phyrexian Revoker, Platinum Angel and some Covetous Dragon to play 4 Chalice of the Void, 3 Blood Moon, 3 Trinisphere and 3 Lodestone Golem.

It's not just about more bombs, your deck is also pretty anti-synnergy. When the bombs you add are covetus dragon, which has no interaction with metalworker or goblin welder (the two reasons to PLAY mud) you make the deck and it's strategy inherently weaker. You also have zero draw engine and are running seething song, which is dead after turn 2 anyway.

So yeah, it is weaker.

[vikram]

You're getting a 6/5 flyer on turn two. That's well worth it IMO.

I'm not ware of a draw engine in either mud or dragon stumpy.

[ns2973]

You're getting a 6/5 flyer on turn two. That's well worth it IMO.

I'm not ware of a draw engine in either mud or dragon stumpy.

Why wouldn't i just go for a 5/5 flyer on turn 2 with pernicious deed built in that combo's with worker AND with welder?

Sensei's divining top with voltaic key is the draw engine in Mud.

[Koby]

In MUD, I agree that Steel Hellkite > Covetous Dragon. You're hardly losing much in attack power (Steel can self-pump), and you add more synergy to your Metalworker plan.

That being said, this deck is no where near Dragon Stompy, and a lot more closer to MUD.

As with MUD, you're very reliant on Metalworker, and watering down the deck with non-artifacts (Seething Song, Covetous Dragon) is a terrible way to take advantage of it's explosiveness.

[vikram]

The deck is more flexible.

1. Seething Song is there to decrease your reliance on metalworker. You don't see metalworker everygame and when you do, it usually gets Dazed, Forced, Thoughtseized or StPed.

Seething song lets you play out an early bomb even if that happens.

2. Covetous Dragon usually drops turn 2, a full turn before steel hellkite. It's also a full turn faster clock thanks to fetchlands, fows, confidants and thoughtseizes. So all in all it kills people two turns earlier. (A turn one Lightning Greaves, turn two Dragon is just brutal and they die on turn 4, as opposed to on turn 6 with a lightning greaved Hellkite)

3. When you have 6+ mana for Hellkite, you usually to prefer to cast a Wurmcoil, Battlesphere, Angel and sometimes even Sundering Titan with that mana instead. You don't have as many great options when at five mana in a list without Dragon.

4. The deck has enough artifacts to support Metalworker and Welder. It plays 36 artifacts, twice as many as the number of lands it plays.

Yeah the Top + Voltaic Key combo to draw one more card is solid. I think cutting Revoker for Top and and another Key maybe worth it.

[ns2973]

Yeah the Top + Voltaic Key combo to draw one more card is solid. I think cutting Revoker for Top and and another Key maybe worth it.

Seething Song is there to decrease your reliance on metalworker. You don't see metalworker everygame and when you do, it usually gets Dazed, Forced, Thoughtseized or StPed.

Seething song lets you play out an early bomb even if that happens.

Covetous Dragon usually drops turn 2, a full turn before steel hellkite. It's also a full turn faster clock thanks to fetchlands, fows, confidants and thoughtseizes. So all in all it kills people two turns earlier. (A turn one Lightning Greaves, turn two Dragon is just brutal).

When you have 6+ mana for Hellkite, you usually to prefer to cast a Wurmcoil, Battlesphere, Angel and sometimes even Sundering Titan with that mana instead. You don't have as many great options when at five mana in a list without Dragon.

The deck has enough artifacts to support Metalworker and Welder. It plays 36 artifacts, twice as many as the number of lands it plays.

Have you actually played Mud or this new dragon stompy?

I play the mud deck and what you are advocating isn't what i've had in tournament or testing play. Seething song is just as likely to get dazed, force or thoughtseized.

How you think covetous is a turn 2 drop on average is a mystery to me, 5 mana AND a red source on turn 2 most of the time? I sincerely doubt it. The only card in mud i'd say is a pretty average turn 2 drop is lodestone golem.

If you would rather play wurmcoil engine instead of hellkite, then i'd certainly rather play them over covetous dragon. You aren't getting to 5 mana turn 2 without metalworker anyway, without a god hand, so the 6 casting cost on hellkite is usually easier than 4 and a red. At least in my experience.

I just don't see how this deck changes what mud stompy already does better. Adding covetous dragon and replacing lodestone golem just doesn't seem strong. I'm not a fan of blightsteel or platinum angel either, but would understand why you would run them in certain meta's. They have always been win more for me. Once i can forgemaster, i've usually won anyway.

[vikram]

Yes any of the accelerants (worker, monolith, song) can get Fowed. That's why you are better off playing 11 accelerants rather than just 8, so if one gets Fowed, you probably have more. The deck already plays 4 Wurmcoil and even a Hellkite. It has lots of stuff it can do with 6+ mana. Dragon gives it more options at 5 mana.

How you think covetous is a turn 2 drop on average is a mystery to me, 5 mana AND a red source on turn 2 most of the time? I sincerely doubt it. At least in my experience.

You have 14 red sources, so thats rarely an issue. Here are some of the ways you get Dragon on turn two.

1. Seething Song. A song in hand is almost always a turn two Dragon.

2. First turn Grim Monolith (either with a dualmana land or a Mox Diamond or Mox Opal)

3. First turn metal worker (using mox opal or diamond)

4. Mox Opal or Mox Diamond + two dualmana lands.

5. Greaves + worker.

Odds are in your favor that atleast one of these plays is possible in your opening hand.

[GGoober]

You have 14 red sources, so thats rarely an issue. Here are some of the ways you get Dragon on turn two.

1. Seething Song. A song in hand is almost always a turn two Dragon.

2. First turn Grim Monolith (either with a dualmana land or a Mox Diamond or Mox Opal)

3. First turn metal worker (using mox opal or diamond)

4. Mox Opal or Mox Diamond + two dualmana lands.

5. Greaves + worker.

Odds are in your favor that atleast one of these plays is possible in your opening hand.

I'm sorry but if you want to post these points with certainty, you shouldn't go about saying "Seething Song. A song in hand is almost always a turn two Dragon." What are the EXACT odds? And more importantly, what are the odds COMPARED to dragon stompy and Meandeck MUD? I can work these out for you if you would like, but they involve a lot more hours/computation than what you just posted in less than 2min here.

I'm not trolling you, but I see no benefit in playing a Vanilla 6/5 flyer in Meandeck MUD compared against the stock lists. However, the change that I do like in your list is playin 18 lands with 2 Mox Diamond, which I continue to stress is much more stable than Meandeck MUD playing 16 lands with 3 Mox Diamond. All I can tell you is that you will probably find Metalworker (even if you get it turn 1) to be underwhelming in your list because you have tremendously cut back on the artifact count.

[ns2973]

1. Only seething song= covetous turn two ONLY if your opening hand has a red source, a sol land, a seething song, a covetous dragon, and an artifact Thats a MINIMUM of 4-5 cards in your open. not likely

2. Requires a sol land, a monolith and a red source and covetous dragon, another 4 card open OR land, mox diamond, land to pitch, grim monolith, land, covetous dragon. A 6 card open

3. First turn metalworker using opal or diamond needs a sol land, a mox and a card to pitch (or 2 artifacts turn 1), metalworker, artifacts in the hand and covetous dragon. MINIMUM of 5-6 card open

4. Requires 2 sol lands, an opal, a diamond, a land to pitch to diamond, another artifact and covetous dragon. 7 Card hand

5. Greaves and worker requires A sol land, a diamond, land to pitch, a metalworker, a land to play, 2 artifacts in the hand and a covetous dragon, thats an 8 card open to pull that one.

If you can rip a perfect minimum 5 card hand and say the odds are in your favor in your testing? Screw this deck, just play TES and open land, rit, rit ad nauseum every game.

[vikram]

Some of those are false. For example, why do you think you need both an opal and a diamond, diamond by itself works.

As for the rest, the scenario was, assuming you had a Dragon in hand, what the odds you can drop one on turn two. I don't know how to calculate the exact stats, but goldfishs suggest it happens fairly often.

That's not really even the point though. The real test is how often Dragon can be played that Hellkite would make you wait an extra turn or in some cases many extra turns till you topddck another mana source, to cast. This is where Dragon has a huge advantage.

[GGoober]

Sure point taken, but you are underestimating the :1: extra mana for Steel Hellkite for its relevant abilities, not to mention the situations where Steel Hellkite can be casted in hands where you had not drawn any red sources.

Both Steel Hellkite and Covetous Dragon are removed as easily as any creatures are in the format (StP) so the 5cmc v.s. 6cmc isn't a huge debate. It definitely matters being 5cmc and 6cmc, but at this point where you are relying on hands with Seething Song/Metalworkers/Monoliths, 5cmc and 6cmc are almost equally castable on turn 2 with the manabase of Meandeck MUD. You value the 5cmc cost more in your analysis, but don't forget that for just 1 more mana, you get a lot more value from playing Steel hellkite (it's ability), for the same reason, Wurmcoil is especially more backbreaking than Covetous Dragon ever will be. Aggro can still race and beat Covetous Dragon, but they can't race a Wurmcoil on turn 2.

[ns2973]

Some of those are false. For example, why do you think you need both an opal and a diamond, diamond by itself works.

As for the rest, the scenario was, assuming you had a Dragon in hand, what the odds you can drop one on turn two. I don't know how to calculate the exact stats, but goldfishs suggest it happens fairly often.

That's not really even the point though. The real test is how often Dragon can be played that Hellkite would make you wait an extra turn or in some cases many extra turns till you topddck another mana source, to cast. This is where Dragon has a huge advantage.

I did the math for you, for almost all of those examples, they are about 5% at best.

To add to what metalwalker said, not ONLY is hellkite that much better, it also works WITH metal worker and goblin welder. It really seems bar none like covetous just isn't right in the MUD shell you have here.

[vikram]

Wurmcoil is especially more backbreaking than Covetous Dragon ever will be. Aggro can still race and beat Covetous Dragon, but they can't race a Wurmcoil on turn 2.

I fully understand how backbreaking Wurmcoil is which is why I am and have always played 4 copies. At 6cc Wurmcoil is barnone the most backbreaking creature ever printed. And if Wurmcoil didn't exist, I would absolutely playing a full playset of Hellkite. But because it does, and the deck's 6cc slot was packed is why I'm playing only one Hellkite.

Point taken I am comfortable cutting angel, titan, myr or blightsteel to go up to a full playset of Hellkite. Based on your feedback I'll do just that. But I don't think the deck is helped by replacing a 5cc guy with a 6cc guy, or by going from 11-12 mana accelerants to just 8.

I do find that 36 is a perfectly sufficent number of artifacts to feed metalworker. Metalworker rarely manages to make it to the board and stick around for a turn anyways. It has a huge target on its back which is also why I opted to up the amount of mana acceleration. But I can certainly cut mountains for Moxen, artifact lands and perhaps cut a Covetous Dragon for a Top to get the artifact count close to 40 if you think it's needed.

[Clark Kant]

I really like this deck idea and the new set just leaked.

Porcelain Legionaire, Phyrexian Metamorph and Moltensteel Dragon are all exactly the kick in the pants this deck needed. Metamorph duplicates your Dragons, Wurmcoils and your opponents Dreadnoughts, Tombstalkers, Progenitus and Emrakuls.

Legionnaire is a fantastic two drop due to the first strike.

Moltentail is a solid 4 drop artifact dragon since it flies and you can trade your life to pump it and do the last bit of damage.

Moltensteel Dragon 4PP
Artifact Creature - Dragon
4/4
(P) can be paid with R or 2 life
Flying
P: Moltensteel Dragon gets +1/+0 until end of turn.

Replace the crappier cards with these and this deck is ready to fly.