[PRIMER] Der Kreuzzug (The Crusade) - Knights in Legacy

[Seraph2k]

Der Kreuzzug (The Crusade)
– Knights in Legacy – Primer

1. Introduction
After playing a long time with decks like “The Rock”, “The Gate”, Zoo and Ichorid I am tired of netdecking and so I was looking for a new legacy deck. I am sure this will not end into a tier one deck, but I hope it could develop into a solid legacy deck which can win at least 50%. After two tournaments (both 2-2 with total games of 12-12)I can say the goal is already reached so the next target will be 60% ;)
Knights in legacy were a long time unplayable. We had no ringleaders, lackys or lords. Then some good knights (Exemplar, etc.) appeared and my little concept-plant began to grew.
There is a more than one way to built “Der Kreuzzug”. You can create a mono white knights deck or splash black (my first version), green (my second version), red (maybe me next version) or blue (not planned).

2. Knight-Analysis
Before I could create a deck I had to search knights who have to potential to persist in legacy. So what will follow is a Knight-card analysis. (Due to the fact that our “Lord” and the core cards of the tribe are white I will start with that color.

White:
Student of Warfare: Best 1st turn drop of your deck. Turn 2 lvl up to a 3/3. He offers us a solid body for early pressure or can stall the ground. And he is a good lategame topdeck.

Knight of the White Orchid: At the first view he is a 2/2 with first strike for cc2. Being on the draw (or combined with path to exile) he fetch a land on turn 3.

Knight Exemplar: Our Lord or better as a Knight – our King! For cc3 he offers us a solid 2/2 first strike body with two very good abilities. Both of them are amazing: He or better she is a walking crusade who pumps all other knights and in addition he makes other knights indestructible! If you have two Exemplars in game they survive every deed, explosive, etc.

Mirran Crusader: For cc3 you get a 2/2 body with protection green (goyf!) and black. That is great but better is his double strike ability. He deals 4 damage if he isn’t blocked. His greatest strength is equipment and/or Elspeth. In the most cases he hits the opponent for lethal damage. Remember: Jitte and Equipment-Swords will trigger two times which means 4 Jitte counters with one attack or two cards you will draw via SoFI!

This four knights proved that they are the best of their tribe, but there are several other good white knights:

Knight of Meadowgrain: A 2/2 body with first strike and lifelink. Could be useful against aggrodecks. On the paper he seems to be a good choice but I am not sure.

Silver Knight and Tivadar of Thorn: Both cards interesting for SB if you expect a lot of goblins. Silver Knight should be better because he hits the table one turn earlier.

White Shield Crusader and White Knight: Each card offers us protection from black. Crusader can fly – Knight has a better body, but both are weaker then mirran.

Paladin en-Vec: He could be a good choice. Like exemplar and mirran he is located in the cc3 slot. But therefor he offers protection black, red and first strike. Especially the protection red can be important – he is protected from bolts, goblins and other burn.

Leonin Skyhunter: A 2/2 flyer for cc2 who can carry a equipment over a stalled ground. I never tested him but on the paper he looks solid. The problem with skyhunter is simple: There are better cards for the few slots in the deck…

Kinsbaile Cavalier: Great knight for cc4! Gives each of his friends double strike, think of all the equipment! Often a win more and he dies so easily with his 2/2 body.

Hero of Bladehold: When he was released I bought a playset cause I was sold on him. But after some testings I realized I was completely wrong. There are two problems: You don’t want to cast a knight with 4 casting cost. Elspeth is it worth, but not a critter. The second point: His friends are soldiers and no knights! They die quicker than you can say “Knight”.

Black:
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge: Simply the best black knight wizards ever printed. At my first tournament my opponent cleared the board with deed. In response I vialed in Haakon. Two turns later it was gg;) Haakon offers a solid body and a broken ability together with a huge problem: You can’t play him from you hand. I solved that problem with the vials which were already in the deck. Due to the fact that four outlets are not enough I added four Mercenary Knights. 8 ways to cheat Haakon into play are enough trust me! And NO opponent will counter your Mercenary Knight!

Mercenary Knight: Ok he is expensive, but hey together with Haakon you have a strong “combo”. With Haakon he is a 4/4 with no drawback for cc3!

Phyrexian Crusader: What a damn good Knight! For cc3 he has a 2/2 body, first strike and infect. So he survives battles with 3/3 critters. I know nothing special and again cc3! But he offers us protection from white (swords, path, etc) and red (bold, burn, goblins)! And infect together with equipment is definitely a really fast clock.

Arrogant Bloodlord: Never tested him. Like Crusader cc3 with a 4/4 body who dies quickly versus 1/1 critters – mother of runes or stoneforge for example. But are there so much 1 power critters in the current legacymeta? As I said I never tested him, but he deserves it to be mentioned.


Red:
Hero of Oxid Ridge: For cc4 you will receive a hasty 4/2 with battlecry. I like the haste but dislike his weak body and battlecry because I will never go all-in with my knights. In addition cc4 seems a bit too much.

Now the next point: Multicolored Knights:

Stillmoon Cavalier: A bw knight with cc3 that offers us like mirran, phyrexian and paladin double color protection from black and white. Beside that he can fly, first strike and has a pump ability. MI think he can be great in casual but his body is too weak for legacy.

Knight of the Reliquary: When I say the words “knight” and “green” every legacy player will say “KotR”! Yes in a lot of decks he is very strong, but in knights he is in the most cases a 3/3 or 4/4. With all the equipment we need critters with evasion. Ok you can combine him with a land-toolbox (karakas, wasteland, bojuka bog, maze, etc.) but I am not sold on him. Last tournament each other knight in the deck performed better!

Knotvine Paladin: Gives us a 2/2 body for cc2. He gets bigger when his friends stay at home and stall the ground. Another maybe of the deck.

Steward of Valeron: Interesting card, which I found two days ago. A card that can be good thanks to his vigilance ability. And he offers a solid 2/2 body combined with the ability to power out a turn 3 Elspeth.

Wilt-Leaf Liege and Knight of New Alara: Two creatures which can be called walking crusades. Both with the problem of cc4. The Liege seems the better one. If you play the deck WG you can try him, remember that he will pump your steward or KotR with +2/+2!

Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers: Another choice if you want to follow GW route. Very good cc power relation and vigilance seems to be nice against aggressive decks. But in that matchups he is a bit so late on the board I think. Turn three you want to play a bomb like Exemplar or mirran.

Skyknight Legionnaire: With a red splash he could help to carry your equipment over a stalled ground. The combination of haste and flying can surprise you opponent. On the other hand you can play a turn two skyhunter, drop turn three a exemplar or another knight and attack for two or three…

Blood Knight: The best red knight. Immune to swords and path due to his protection white. A solid body for cc2. A problem could be the RR in his manacosts.

Galina's Knight: Knights with blue offers us his guy. You get a 2/2 knight with protection red. The same ability like silver knight but ww from silver knight is much easier to cast;)

Sky Hussar: You play blue-white and need a big flying knight? Here is the solution of you problem. Maybe he can help you to get card advantage. But in the most cases you want to kill your opponent as fast as possible and not tap your knights to draw cards.

Rafiq of the Many: Last but not least one of the best knights ever printed. He gives our protection dudes double strike when attacking alone. The problem I did not test him is his casting cost: UGW. Three color knights seems impossible to me. Since the deck needs a very stable manabase to hit on turn three your third land-drop to cast all the good cc3 knights. On paper Rafiq looks pretty amazing.

Changelings:
Ok that are all the good knights we have! But hey do you remember Lorwyn? There was a “tribe” which creatures are also knights: Shapeshifters (Changeling)!

Mirror Entity: Can pump simultaneously all knights we have. Maybe a one-off, but I haven’t found the single slot to test him (it?).

Taurean Mauler: Will be my first choice, when I will test a red splash during the next weeks. Could be very good if you opponent have no direct response.

Shapesharer: Blue seems the weakest splash for the deck. His only strength could be his ability to copy our Exemplar.

Crib Swap: No creature but together with Haakon a infinite spotremoval! I will test it as soon as possible. Another strength of the card: It is white so we don’t need to stress our manabase.

Nameless Inversion: There was one copy in my first BW built. Before the tournament started I was sold on it cause of its potential to pump one of our big dudes or kill an enemy critter. In fact it was the weakest card in the deck unable to kill a goyf or tombstalker. So when I need a recurring spotremoval I will use crib swap!



3. Support
“Der Kreuzzug” cannot win games only with style and some knights therefore we need more power in form of planeswalkers, equipment and some (one!) non-knight creature.

Stoneforge Mystic: Well in a deck where you need equipment he is outstanding. In my BW built he missed because I simply had none. But in GW on my second tournament his/her tutor ability won me some games.

Phyrexian Metamorph: Amazing card. He can be your star cause he can be what you want! Copy enemy jitte to remove it. Copy stoneforge to tutor. Copy enemy goyf or tombstalker to stall the ground or air... you see what I mean!

Qasali Pridemage: CC2: 2/2 body with exalted that can destroy annoying artifacts or enchantments. Maybe he will be tested in the near future.

Equipment:

Umezawa's Jitte: No words simply the best equipment ever printed. You want to see it every game! Each knight equipped with it is a threat, when it is a mirran your opponent has a huge problem cause it pumps him extremely.

Sword of Fire and Ice: In my opinion the second best equipment. The ability to draw cards is unique in this deck and important in the late game. Ok protection blue and red is amazing too.

Sword of Light and Shadow: You can get you killed (not removed) knights back to your hand and in addition protection from black and white. Can be good, but in the most cases when you tutor you will take jitte or SoFI;)

Sword of Feast and Famine: Some players love it. I never tested it. I think Jitte, SofI and SoLS are enough.


Planeswalkers:

Elspeth, Knight-Errant: She fits perfect into this deck. Beside the style and theme she combines evasion and pump ability – all things we need to win fast. Ok producing 1/1 guys each turn for free is as good.

Elspeth Tirel: Can give you life or critters. Performs ok, I like the KE a lot more.

Spells and Removal (Maindeck):
Removal is very important for “Der Kreuzzug” cause our knights are sometimes to small to block for lethal damage. Think of problematic creatures like tarmogoyf, tombstalker, terravore and countryside crusher.

Swords to Plowshares: Best removal ever. Who cares opponent’s lifegain, when you can swing with equipped or pumped critters in the next few turns?

Vindicate: In a BW knight deck a very strong card. It can deal with nearly every annoying permanent of your opponent (Planeswalkers, Enchantments  humility, CB… etc.)

Path to Exile: Second best removal. Same casting cost, but accelerates your opponent. No problem because we play Knight of the White Orchid so there is no drawback. I recommend two paths in addition to your playset of swords.

Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning: When you play the red splash you can add those two cc1  3dmg burnspells. Can take out critters like lackey or first turn mother of runes. In the lategame you can deal your last damage with them.

Crusade and Honor of the Pure: Both will pump our creatures with +1/+1, but we need guys to attack, equip and knights that can survive in the heat of combat.

Retribution of the Meek: A strong card versus opponents with big critters or pumped other tribes. In addition you gat kill emrakul, progenitus and friends.



4. The Manabase of “Der Kreuzzug”
As I mentioned before the most important thing of this deck is a solid manabase. You have to hit each of your first three landdrops. If you have three lands in play you can do everything you want. I add here the vial cause it is there to put your critters into play. I recommend around 21 lands (with 8 fetchs and 10 basics).

Aether Vial: Against control or SB/Top the best way to cheat your knights into play. If used at the end of opponents turn our knights can attack next turn, maybe equipped;) Exemplar with vial is a nice combat trick. And not to mention that Haakon can jump out of a vial and win games.

[B]Fetchlands[/cards]: I recommend 8 fetchs of your core-color combination. For example two playsets of Marsh Flats and Windswept Heath. If you play red add Arid Mesa and if you play blue add Flooded Strand.
Basic Lands: My advice  play basic lands! The add the stability to the deck it need to be successful.
Duals: During my testing three of the needed are enough. Often they get wasted and that is a thing we don`t need and want. Play three Savannah, Scrubland, Plateau or Tundra.

Horizon Canopy: Good in GW with or without KotR.

Karakas: Same than above. Could be a good choice if you expect a lot Emrakuls, etc. I decided against it for more stability.

Wasteland: A one of for KotR. We don’t need colorless mana! We need colored mana! In my opinion not necessary in “Der Kreuzzug”.




5. Sideboard:
As you can see, we are preboard a bye for combodecks of all kind if the have a normal draw. That is the most important problem which our SB have to solve! The second important thing: graveyard hate. I know at the moment there are nor so much grave based decks but four SB slots should be enough. The thirst aspect of the SB have to handle enchantments/artifacts.

Leyline of Sanctity: A nightmare for burn and a problem ANT have to solve. If they have to wait two more turns it’s great cause we can be fast too.

Orim's Chant: A important addition to my SB. No combo player expects Leyline AND chant. Together enough to win this against combo. Ok you have to find those cards but they have to find their solution too!

Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist: Other creature-based solutions for combo matchups. Maybe better – they can attack… leylines and chant can’t deal damage.

Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt: I used a 2/2 split. Maybe wrong but I haven’t faced ichorid with knights and my crypts ripped loam into pieces.

Nihil Spellbomb: Can replace Relic if you play black.

Extirpate (and the new Spell): Other alternatives against grave-based decks.
Discard: Black offers you discard vs all types of decks which can handle enchantments or Planeswalkers. Examples: Thoughtseize, Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek.

Serenity: Outstanding card! I played three during my last tournament and it performed great. You can handle multiple problems with one spell! Great!

Krosan Grip: Knights with green can add Grip with its split second ability to get rid of annoying enchantments or artifacts.

Oblivion Ring: A nonpermanent solution. Can handle Emrakul in addition but I am not convinced of it.

Enlightened Tutor: With him you get your graveyard hate, equipment or canonist vs storm decks. Problem could be his carddisadvantage, but eot nice.

Price of Progress: If you play red and expect a lot of lands decks add some PoP to your SB to steal some games. But as you can see there are a lot of “if” in this scenario.



6. Decklists:
Enough of Cardchoices – Here are Examples of tournament-proofed lists:
Here is my first decklist which performed 2-2 on a 50 player tournament.
“Ritter!” [WB]

4 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
8 Plains

4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Mercenary Knight
3 Haakon
1 Nameless Inversion
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth KE

SB:
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Tormods Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Path to Exile


One month later I took this list to the tournament (again 2-2):
“Der Kreuzzug (The Crusade) – Knights” [WG]

4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stonefoge Mystic

2 Elspeth Knight E.
2 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Light an Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial

4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
3 Savannah
9 Plains
1 Forest
60

SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Serenity
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus



7. Thoughts about the future of the deck:
As you can see “Der Kreuzzug” can be developed into different directions. It’s a deck that have won nearly against each (!!!) deck against it was paired at least one game! (only enchantress lucked against me with a topdecked oblivion ring on serenity!)
The deck can go a very aggressive way with a first turn student go. Lvl up and attack. Or can be played slowly by stalling the ground against merfolk. Our guys are simply better than his;) Only watch his lords…
Ways to accelerate the deck like adding chrome moxes or mox diamonds were no gain for the deck. With them you are one turn faster but you run out faster.
I hope you enjoyed this primer and your will join to my round table (like arthus’) ;)

[Koby]

Oh Vial Knights, how I loath to love you.

Good work on the primer, and a decent write up. Perhaps you can chose a name for the deck that isn't so.. evokative of the dark times? Vial Knights is pretty clean IMO, where as The Crusade makes me think you actually run the card Crusade. Also, seeing that the only Instant you run is 1-mana spot removal, have you considered running Ethersworn Canonist to shore up the difficult combo matchup? What about Enlightened Tutor sideboard package to help find silver bullet answers?

[Seraph2k]

The Crusade refers to the dark times of netdecking;) Nearly 95% of all legacy decks are standard builts from internet sources. I am so sad to play on a tournament three times against the same deck with three different pilotes!
This deck is indeed a crusade for creative decks - its the opposite of the other decks - back to an old theme with new cards!

It might not win every game but when you finish 2-2 you know your deck had the most style from all decks...

The cheap removal doesn't stop your own plans to drop a knight each turn. But Crib Swap and Vindicate can function as removal under a chalice 1.

Canonist is there, next to gaddock. I will test both of them instead of Leyline and Chant. But it will be hard wor the critters cause Leyline and Chant served me very well!

I will think about Enlightened Tutor. Indeed he can search equipment AND the graveyard hate. Nice addition: Canonsist against storm. Great idea!

[Nabbydian]

nice and comprehensive primer on the knghts available in legacy

by the way i have a few legacy knights decklist.

My first built was Mono-white knights four months ago before i tweaked it into GW knights for my local monthly tournament in Febraury, thereafter i tried UW knights but didnt have the confidence to bring it to the April tournament.

Now i have just completed my RW knights deck.

so far i have been playing GW Knights competively for the past 2-3 months with decent success and my eventual aim is to bring 5 different combinations of knights deck to the tournament namely:

Green-White knights: tried,tested and succeded
Mono-White: deck formed
Blue-White: deck formed
Red-White: deck formed
Black-White: still short of many cards

[Seraph2k]

Good to hear that I am not alone;)

My feeling about WG-Knights is not good at all. The KotR is nice, but he never did broken things during the last tournament. How are your experiences with the GW built? (I went 2-2)

So my plan is to try in the next weeks WR (with taurean mauler - he could be a great card I think) and then go back to WB (Maybe crusader gets his chance).
WB-Knights can do a lot of broken things. Give them a try, you will love it.

I will not test WU-Knights. At the moment we don`t need the bluesplash.

[GoboLord]

First of: I think this deck can actually develope into a competitive legacy-deck when you stick to Aether Vial.


I will not test WU-Knights. At the moment we don`t need the bluesplash.
Although the frequent WW-manacosts are very demanding you can't say that Bluesplash isn't needed. I mean: the deck hasn't even fully developed so it's not the time to draw such concusions yet. Blue-splash doesn't necessarily require creatures (like that blue changeling) to be played. I think you could very well try Brainstorm, Daze and Mental Misstep in your deck. Plus, Standstill has a nice interaction with Aether Vial. Since you don't have any Ringleader-effect you could use Standstill to npt run out of gas in mid-/lategame. Mutavault should also be given a try.

//EDIT: Oh, and since your are heavily relying on cc3-permanents it bight also be a good idea to run Chrome Mox to jump into 3 mana on turn 2.

[Seraph2k]

Ok standstill and cantrips can help us, but at the moment I will first try the red-splash. It follows the aggressive direction of the deck a lot better than blue.

Mutavault is indeed a nice card but again it is easy destroyed by wastelands, which slows us down. If you drop your student turn one you need WW to pump him turn two followed by an other strong drop turn three. There is no space and time for beeing wasted.

The problem with moxes (diamond/chrome): Yes we are faster, but we run out of gas one turn earlier! If you have first testresults you can tell us how it was. If it is indeed better ok, but at the moment I don't see moxes in the deck.

[Nabbydian]

First of: I think this deck can actually develope into a competitive legacy-deck when you stick to Aether Vial.


Although the frequent WW-manacosts are very demanding you can't say that Bluesplash isn't needed. I mean: the deck hasn't even fully developed so it's not the time to draw such concusions yet. Blue-splash doesn't necessarily require creatures (like that blue changeling) to be played. I think you could very well try Brainstorm, Daze and Mental Misstep in your deck. Plus, Standstill has a nice interaction with Aether Vial. Since you don't have any Ringleader-effect you could use Standstill to npt run out of gas in mid-/lategame. Mutavault should also be given a try.

//EDIT: Oh, and since your are heavily relying on cc3-permanents it bight also be a good idea to run Chrome Mox to jump into 3 mana on turn 2.

At the moment it is actually a competitive deck. i have managed to beat Tier 1 merfolk and goblins effectively. So far i have been able to Top 4 in 2 of my local store monthly tournament recently, however i admit had the luck of the matchup not to meet any TES,belcher,hide tide in both tournaments

i actually utilise Ancestral Vision, Remand & Chain of vapor in the blue splash. The only worthy blue knight to play was Court Hussar. Mutavault should't be play as we cannot afford non-white mana sources with most knights requiring WW lke you mentioned in your post and like Seraph2K has pointed out about the Student.


Ok standstill and cantrips can help us, but at the moment I will first try the red-splash. It follows the aggressive direction of the deck a lot better than blue.

Mutavault is indeed a nice card but again it is easy destroyed by wastelands, which slows us down. If you drop your student turn one you need WW to pump him turn two followed by an other strong drop turn three. There is no space and time for beeing wasted.

The problem with moxes (diamond/chrome): Yes we are faster, but we run out of gas one turn earlier! If you have first testresults you can tell us how it was. If it is indeed better ok, but at the moment I don't see moxes in the deck.

since you are playing R/W has you thought of you this? Duergar Hedge-Mage

i use the mage in my R/W knights version and it is a bomb when resolved. Ultimate CA and a great sidekick since pridgemage is unavailable

[Nabbydian]

Good to hear that I am not alone;)

My feeling about WG-Knights is not good at all. The KotR is nice, but he never did broken things during the last tournament. How are your experiences with the GW built? (I went 2-2)




I have 3 knights decklist here,

The Green/White knights had been played in a couple of tournaments recently while the blue/white was played casually with varying successes. I have included links and results to the tournaments below based on the GW built. This built has actually been played before (a poser by the nick of zach - i think tats his nick) last year so its not totally my creation.

Just managed to complete Red/White knights as i finally brought a set of Plateau, still some way away from Black/White as i only have 2 Scrubland and no damnation and stillmoon cavalier yet. Will add in my B/W list another time.

My decks are usually equipped to deal with all threats so below is my maindeck utility cards:
G/W Knights = Qasali Pridemage x 3 (artifact or enchantment removal with a body + exalted), uncounterable if put into play via Vial
B/W Knights = Chain of Vapor x 3 (bounce any permanent which cant be handled)
R/W Knights = Duergar Hedge-Mage x 3 (artifact and enchantment removal with a body) uncounterable if put into play via Vial



//Green & White Legacy Knights

//Creatures [27]
2 Kinsbaile Cavalier
4 Knight Exemplar
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Silver Knight
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Student of Warfare
2 White Knight

//Planeswalkers [2]
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

//Spells [11]
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Lands [20]
2 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

//SIDEBOARD
3 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
4 Retribution of the Meek
1 Sword of Body and Mind
3 Tormod's Crypt

//Tournament Record W:D:L
//Feb 2011: Matches @ 3:1:1, Games @ 6:2, finished Top 4 split, link to the tournament http://sgcardgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=48768
//Apr 2011: Matched @ 4:0:1, Games@ 8:5 finished Top 4 split, link to the tournament http://www.sgcardgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=49915

//Blue & White Legacy Knights

//Creatures [18]
3 Court Hussar
4 Knight Exemplar
2 Silver Knight
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Student of Warfare
2 White Knight

//Spells [22]
4 AEther Vial
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Remand
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Lands [20]
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
6 Plains
4 Tundra

//SIDEBOARD - Work in Progress
1 Disenchant
4 Kor Sanctifiers
4 Orim's Chant
4 Retribution of the Meek
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

//Red & White Legacy Knights - Work in Progress

//Creatures [24]
2 Blood Knight
3 Duergar Hedge-Mage
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Silver Knight
2 Skyknight Legionnaire
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Student of Warfare

//Spells [16]
4 AEther Vial
2 Bonesplitter
4 Lightning Helix
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

//Lands [20]
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
1 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Plateau
3 Sacred Foundry

//SIDEBOARD - Work in Progress
2 Price of progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Orim's Chant
4 Retribution of the Meek
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Black & White Legacy Knights - Work in Progress

//Creatures [22]
2 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Phyrexian Crusader
2 Stillmoon Cavalier

//Spells [18]
4 Buried Alive
3 Damnation
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

//Lands [20]
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp

//Sideboard [15] - Work in Progress
2 Aura of Silence
2 Retribution of the Meek
4 Extirpate
4 Orim's Chant
3 Tormod's Crypt

[klaus]

i know, jitte is amazing at what it does, but playing three is at least one to many, and i'm sure a total of 3 equipments is plenty, due to mystics adding a virtual 4,5, and 6. I'd cut a Jitte and replace the second with SoLaS, I guess.

[Nabbydian]

i know, jitte is amazing at what it does, but playing three is at least one to many, and i'm sure a total of 3 equipments is plenty, due to mystics adding a virtual 4,5, and 6. I'd cut a Jitte and replace the second with SoLaS, I guess.

yup, i agree here, as a mainboard SoLaS is better as there is plenty of efficient black and white removal spells around. 3 Jitte is overkill especially as they are legendary.

[Seraph2k]

2 Jitte are enough if you play 3 Stoneforges + other equipment.

Why do you play silver knight? Here in germany there is no need of protection black. Mirran can do that better.

All your SB are without Leyline of S. and Chant. Is there no combo in your meta? I always feared that matchup till I realized that you can beat ANT with Leyline and Chant. Ok this are 8 SB slots but who cares?

Have you tested serenity over O-ring? I started with O-ring, then gave serenity a chance - now I love serenity;)

[Nabbydian]

2 Jitte are enough if you play 3 Stoneforges + other equipment.

Why do you play silver knight? Here in germany there is no need of protection black. Mirran can do that better.

All your SB are without Leyline of S. and Chant. Is there no combo in your meta? I always feared that matchup till I realized that you can beat ANT with Leyline and Chant. Ok this are 8 SB slots but who cares?

Have you tested serenity over O-ring? I started with O-ring, then gave serenity a chance - now I love serenity;)

I played sliver knight because i was worried about goblins, i playtest with a buddy who play goblins tend to get swarmed over easily. however i'm leaning towards using white knight instead since there is plenty of black removal in the meta.

Sliver or white knight is very important because its a 2 drop which fits into the mana curve prefectly. As i play KOTR, i cant afford additional 3 drops so it is either KOTR or Mirran for me. KOTR is absolutely the king for me and is usually my bait to draw an opponent removal before i cast the exemplar. It is the only creature in knights which is able to stop gofy. in my meta almost everyone plays gofy.

my sideboard has chant to deal with combo, which is also prevalent in my meta. usually 30-40% of the decks are combo in my meta.so far luckily i didnt get match up with combo.

i didnt know about serenity, but as i have green i can use pridemage in mainboard and krosan grip in sideboard. Serenity looks like an interesting choice and i'll definitely consider it in my mono-white knights sideboard. But pridemage and grip will be better against the counterbalance matchup IMO

i imagine you will side out vials when you put in the serenity?

have you considered Duergar Hedge-Mage in mainboard and Retribution of the meek in sideboard? My meta is full of emkrakul, progenitus and gofty so retribution is critical as a sideboard option.

[Seraph2k]

I haven't thought about Duergar, but I will give him a chance. On paper he looks good.

Retribution of the meek is a strong card, which I already tested against goyfs, crushers and stalkers. I didn't play them in SB cause I tested them maindeck;)

About the chants: Somehow I haven't seen them in your SB, maybe to much time in front of the screen....

In the WR list you play blood knight isn't it very risky to got for RR in turn two? I am always happy when I can follow the" basic, basic, fetch --> dual -->cc3 critter"-path. Ok with vial it's no problem.

And one thing @ Nabbydian: You don't play moxes (like me) your feelings are the same about them (not needed and to fast out of gas)?

[Nabbydian]

I haven't thought about Duergar, but I will give him a chance. On paper he looks good.

Retribution of the meek is a strong card, which I already tested against goyfs, crushers and stalkers. I didn't play them in SB cause I tested them maindeck;)

About the chants: Somehow I haven't seen them in your SB, maybe to much time in front of the screen....

Yeah, the Duergar looks really massive with its 3 in 1 advantage, do let me know if he is worth the talk, i havent tested him extensively too :wink:

i realised 4 plows may not be enough while i noticed you also had 2 additional paths in your list. I was thinking of maindecking at least 2 retribution as my meta is almost 70% gofy (the rest of the 30% is combo & merfolk). The retribution can also kills those merfolk which has been boostered by 2 lords(which is common - trust me)

i had the chants in my G/W and U/W sideboard, but none in the R/W(SB still in infancy stage)

I saw your overwhelming praise for Haakon, Stromgald Scourge...it is lighting bolt range and everyone plays swords/paths. Will he really be playable in a B/W knights build?

[Snief]

I saw that game where the Team America player wiped the board with Deed and what Haakon did there.... trust me 1-2 turns later the board position looked the same/better than before Deed.

[xifre]

Nice thread! I'm also a Knight fanatic and I'm thinking of having my casual legacy knights - Sleight-Knight style! :P

[Seraph2k]

Haakon is simply amazing. Like Snief said he has the power to turn a loss into a victory. Every knight which is killed and not removed will be back and smash your opponents face.
The only problem with haakon is to get him into play. 4 Outlets are not enough trust me. Thats the reason I played in addition 4 mercenery knight. Ok he is a 4/4 vanilla with no evasion but he never get countered cause every opponets hopes for cardasvantage when you have to discard a critter.

Yesterday I tinkered a bit with a WR list, but I realized it will never be as good as green or (in my opinion) black, which seems to be the strongest splash.
That lead me to the decision to concentrate during the next few weeks to this most powerful list.

Therefor here is my old list:

4 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
3 Swamp
8 Plains

4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Mercenary Knight
3 Haakon
1 Nameless Inversion
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth KE

SB:
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Tormods Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Path to Exile

Lets have a closer look at it:

The Manabase:
Was good but not as good as my WG manabase. The problem: There are 3 (!!!) swamps which are simply bad. One is good, if you play two thats ok, but three is definitely to much. You never want to see two of them because you need white mana all day long.

Equipment package:
I played three jitte and one SoFI with NO Mystics the best nonknight card we have. After and during that tournament I was able to buy the important Stoneforges so we can cut one jitte and add SoLS.

Support and Spells:
Two Elspeth I think is the ideal number. You want to see her but you don't want to see her more than once.
A playset swords are not enough to stop critical creatures. For us that are tombstalker, goyf and maybe crusher to name a few. As a result of that lack of spotremoval my face was badly smashed by a tombstalker.
Consequence: I added two path to exile to my WG built and 6 cc1 spotremovals are very strong. In addition they give us the chance to respond to a turn one lackey if we don't have student in our opening seven.
Here it really could be very strong to play 4 swords and two retribution. It would give us a sweeper against multiple creatures and a maindeck response to Emrakul and friends.
Oh as you can read above in my primer: NEVER play nameless inversion. That was a big mistake but I had no chance to test it and on paper it looked playable... Now I know it was wrong. Maybe crib swap would have been a better choice.

Knights:
The heart of our deck worked very well. I love Mirran. He stopped goyfs all day long and then finished the opponent. Mercenery Knight was a solid card and a good discard outlet for haakon. But sometimed a full set of mecenary knight was too much. You never want him to show up multile. So I think three would be better.
Haakon our dark tribe lord was amazing but I think two are as good as three.

The sideboard:
Round four I faced ANT so game one was an autoloss. In game two Leylines and Chants did what they should and it was a clear victory. In game three I failed: With a chant in hand I tried to revolve a jitte for more pressure. Meanwhile he topdecked a missing LED (the only card which could seal my loss) and combo out... So with more time and calmness I would have won game three.
Crypts and Nihil ripped loam into pieces. But the last three Sb slots where wrong.
Today I would play Vindicate, Oblivion Ring or Serenity.

All the experiences from the last two tournaments lead me to this new list I want to discuss:

4 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
9 Plains

4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Mercenary Knight
2 Haakon
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
2 Elspeth KE


SB:
3 Orim's Chant
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Serenity
2 Retribution of the Meek


The changes for my old WB list:
- 2 Swamp
- 1 Umezawas Jitte
- 1 Nameless Inversion
- 1 Haakon
- 1 Mercenery Knight

+ 1 Plains
+ 3 Stoneforge Mystic
+ 2 Vindicate

SB:
- 3 Path to Exile
- 1 Orims Chant
- 1 Nihil Spellbomb
+ 3 Serenity
+ 2 Retribution of the Meek

WHY:
Adding the Stoneforges is the consequence of their ability to tutor our equipment and cheat it into play. Thats exact what we need! Therefor we can cut the thirst jitte.
I have not added SoLS to the list cause I think we have haakon who can do the same job. What dou you think about SoLS with haakon?
Fixing the manabase and cutting nameless inversion need no explanation I think.
I added tho vindicate to our maindeck, which can solve some problems. First it is a maindeck answer for enemy Planeswalker or some annoying stuff like humility. ok last week I won with a humility on the board but hey the game was extremly narrow.
I cut one Chant and found a solid mix for the SB to fix our critical matchups which are combo and Ichorid. Serenity and Retribution are more versatile cards who can do a lot of good things against a lot of decks.

Some last thoughts:
There are a few cards which I want to test, but I am not sure how to add them. At the moment my most wanted card is phyrexian crusader.
I know Hollywood was sold on him with his the gate, but there the crusader was a fault.
Why do I like him:
He has what we need due to the fact I have no silver knight in my current list: protection red! But hey in addition he offers us protection white. To sum up he can't be killed by swords, path, bolt, chain l.,... And in addition he has infect - combine with equipment he is a two hit kill. Not as good as mirran but a solid knight.
The problem this guy has are his BB in his cc. With vial it is no problem to get him into play but casting him could be pain with our actual manabase. You can say well lets go up to 4 scrublands and more swamps... The result will be a more fragile manabase, which will slow us down and destabilize the hole deck... Nevertheless I like the idea to give him a chance.

[AlterEgo]

I'm not so sold on Phyrexian Crusader, exactly BECAUSE of infect.
Of course, he is very hard to handle, and even harder if backed by Haakon, since he can't be exiled. But in this deck, where all other creatures deal normal damage, he seems out of place to me. Woud you play Painter/Stone combo in WW?

Then @Seraph2k, you missed one knight in the OP: Blood Knight
Sure, he's not exactly the best creature available, but with protection from Swords, I think he deserves to be at least mentioned.

[Seraph2k]

Ok first: added Blood Knight to the primer thx therefor somehow I forget him, maybe cause of his RR;)

Infect with Equipment could be strong. But you see the problem: He needs equipment to be relevant for the game. MIrran is good without it and fitts better (1WW) into our solid manabase. Phyrexian with Elspeth is devastating, but as I said, I will first try the liste above without crusaders.

Concerning Painter/Stone:
Do you refer to Mono White Knights or simple WW?
Maybe the combo can win some games. But in the end we have to find at least 5 slots fr the combo. This will not improve our fast combo matchups cause we have no tutors to find it. And we have to cut other important cards which can slow us down or weaken our lategame. I would not to recommend that combo.
Siedenote: A year ago I tried to improve a BR-list with maindeck Leyline of the Void and helm of obedience. The result as a destabilized list which won two games very fast with the combo. But the rest of the day it was a pain to play it.... It's always better to see a good critter or equipment you can cast and use than finding a combopiece without the missing one:(

[AlterEgo]

Concerning Painter/Stone:
Do you refer to Mono White Knights or simple WW?
Maybe the combo can win some games. But in the end we have to find at least 5 slots fr the combo. This will not improve our fast combo matchups cause we have no tutors to find it. And we have to cut other important cards which can slow us down or weaken our lategame. I would not to recommend that combo.

You misunderstood my intention, this was meant as a comparison. With P.Crusader you give the opponent a whole new life total, just as you would with Grindstone (or any other somehow viable milling strategy).

In a vacuum both crusaders are equally good. One deals half the damage the other would, but also towards half the life total. Mirran wins out because of four reasons:
1 - He can be pumped by Elspeth (Pro-White is an obstacle here).
2 - He gets us double the Swords/Jitte-bonuses.
3 - He breaks through the most commonly played creature in the format.
4 - He deals the same kind of damage as all other knights in the deck.

[Seraph2k]

These four points leads us to the fact that he is one of our best creatures;)
You want to see him every game. Paladin en-vec was a long time ago one of the best knights printed, but Mirran is a monster!

[Nabbydian]

In the WR list you play blood knight isn't it very risky to got for RR in turn two? I am always happy when I can follow the" basic, basic, fetch --> dual -->cc3 critter"-path. Ok with vial it's no problem.

And one thing @ Nabbydian: You don't play moxes (like me) your feelings are the same about them (not needed and to fast out of gas)?

Yeah, agree with you Blood knight is actually risky, like you my first fetch is always basic as we cannot effort to lose tempo by being wasteland off. I notice you also play only 3 savannah in your GW lists. I guess if you really need to play a turn 2 Blood knight maybe you can get a basic mountain followed by a plateau later. As i mentioned before, blood knight is quite useful in my meta dominated by white removals.

Today i did a playtest on R/W knights today against Tier one Zoo(lost probably 2:6 games w/o sideboard) for several games and i realised maybe we dont need the vial. Instead of vial, maybe we can have a few more creatures like Mother of Runes/weathered Wayfarer or CA like Tithe. The R/W version runs out of gas incredibily easily and we dont have a "top" knight like KOTR to beat through opponent ranks if we go into mid-game.

You may feel there is a lot of non-knights creatures around which may dilute the theme but these are essential sidesicks to ensure we can maintain our board position and provide utility solutions. You cant expect a knight to do everything on their own( to destroy artifacts/enchantments etc)

With Red/white we can play lightning blots/lightning helix/Paths and STP therefore it may looks like a zoo aggro deck. Our advantage will be the stoneforge toolbox and the protections from knights.

I'll try to alter my R/W knights and Vial is definitely going out for either

1) more paths
2) lightning blot
3) mother of runes
4) Tithe (and reduce the land count)

I'll didnt consider moxes as we dont need the tempo and more importantly we need more fuel!!! Vial and Moxes in the same deck=no space for more creatures

[Seraph2k]

I am not sure about the vial thing. They saved me more than once vs CB/Top... But maybe here are really four new slots;)
When you have tested without them you can tell us how it was. I think I will keep them especially with haakon they are insane!
In a WR built it makes more sense to cut them.

I am not sure about mom. Ok she protect our knights. But do we really need that? I mean hey we have a lot of protection by equipment and exemplar. I find myself often vialing in an exemplar to protect a knight from removal (bolt, ...). She is nice but I am not convinced of her.

Tith: Do we really need to reduce our landcount? I often argumented the same way years ago when every deck played as many fetchs as possible to reduce the chance to draw a land during the lategame. Then some people calculated the things very detailed and proofed that this effect is nearly 0%. So I would recommend to play more bolts instead of tithe;) Which card you wanna draw if you face an enemy lategame confi or stalker: tithe or additional path/sword?

Helix: I have seen your list contained lightning helix. Isn't that to expensive? I always try to drop a knight and remove an enemy critter at the same time for one mana. So we can keep the pressure and don't waste turn two for a removal.

[Nabbydian]

I saw that game where the Team America player wiped the board with Deed and what Haakon did there.... trust me 1-2 turns later the board position looked the same/better than before Deed.

Yeah, against Team America which uses discard as a form of disruption we dont even need to think about a way to discard Haakon :laugh:


Haakon is simply amazing. Like Snief said he has the power to turn a loss into a victory. Every knight which is killed and not removed will be back and smash your opponents face.
The only problem with haakon is to get him into play. 4 Outlets are not enough trust me. Thats the reason I played in addition 4 mercenery knight. Ok he is a 4/4 vanilla with no evasion but he never get countered cause every opponets hopes for cardasvantage when you have to discard a critter.

Yesterday I tinkered a bit with a WR list, but I realized it will never be as good as green or (in my opinion) black, which seems to be the strongest splash.



Both of you are definitely right - once Haakon works he is amazing. not to forget he is immune to popular black removal like ghastly demise and doomblade. But have you thought of buried alive as a means to search and discard him into the graveyard?

search for 3 knights(Haakon and Student+black knight) = non-stop gas......
- i will probably play dark rituals also

unfortunately although i have a playset of Haakon and i love the card, i cant use it as at least 50% of the meta is using STP and Paths, i simply cannot afford to spend so much effort on Haakon only to be removed via a STP, sorry guys i'm not sold on him in my deck :frown:

For White/Red Knights, If we have a strong WR or Red knight maybe we stand a chance. If you look at the comparison between Red and Green as a second color, both has Hedge mage and Pridemage for utility. However Green has KOTR while there is nothing remotely good for Red.

[Nabbydian]

I am not sure about mom. Ok she protect our knights. But do we really need that? I mean hey we have a lot of protection by equipment and exemplar. I find myself often vialing in an exemplar to protect a knight from removal (bolt, ...). She is nice but I am not convinced of her.

Tith: Do we really need to reduce our landcount? I often argumented the same way years ago when every deck played as many fetchs as possible to reduce the chance to draw a land during the lategame. Then some people calculated the things very detailed and proofed that this effect is nearly 0%. So I would recommend to play more bolts instead of tithe;) Which card you wanna draw if you face an enemy lategame confi or stalker: tithe or additional path/sword?

Helix: I have seen your list contained lightning helix. Isn't that to expensive? I always try to drop a knight and remove an enemy critter at the same time for one mana. So we can keep the pressure and don't waste turn two for a removal.

For Red/White knights,

I'll try out Mom, simply because although our knights have protection but they still get removed left-right-center( that is my experiences from the two tournaments using G/W)...
i even contemplated using Emerge unscathered and brave the elements at one stage but i realised i would rather have a body which can do it every turn. MOM is usually a magnet for removal thus reducing one removal for our exemplar.
MOM is also a perfect replacement for vial coming from the mana curve perspective.
MOM is also good as if if you see my R/W list i use bonesplitter instead of the more mana intensive Swords with Protection. MOM with bonesplitter is a decent way to get some damage across.

i can understand your issues over using tithe and i agree to a large extent, i'll probably try tithe since i already have a playset. but i think eventually i will just play retribution of the meek or more lightning blots

I can affort to use lightning helix as bonesplitter does not require much to equip, i usually have plenty of spare mana lying around.

[Seraph2k]

Have you tested mauler as a KotR replacement in your Red built? He has no toolbox access, but if your opponent does not find a removal he can get really big cause your opponent have to react on your critters.

Buried alive can be a good addition, but I don't like the idea of playing dark ritual... I never need BBB. A white ritual would be a great print for us!

[Nabbydian]

Have you tested mauler as a KotR replacement in your Red built? He has no toolbox access, but if your opponent does not find a removal he can get really big cause your opponent have to react on your critters.

Buried alive can be a good addition, but I don't like the idea of playing dark ritual... I never need BBB. A white ritual would be a great print for us!

yeah...Taurean Mauler sounds good, maybe i'll try him if i manage to get the card.

yup, i myself is also not too keen on dark ritual, just that BBB has lots of synergy with buried alive, damnation etc.

i mean you can do an early buried alive and with dark ritual, start casting creatures from graveyard with tempo once haakon is in play
4 mana may be too much to get a damnation so dark ritual is definitely useful here

[Seraph2k]

Sorry that I am not posting any new testing results... At the moment I am moving and I hope I can start testing in one or two weeks;) There is a lot of work in my new home :(

[Seraph2k]

Okay I am back to MTG.

Here are two cards I want to discuss with you:

Phyrexian Metamorph: Very solid card in my opinion. If we can splash two of them, we can copy a exemplar or a mirran which can seal the game very quickly. In addition it is a answere to a tombstalker, cause we can clone him and stall the air.

Mental Misstep: Maybe our answer to some critical cards.

Note: Due to the fact that I am expecting a lot of opponents playing mental misstep, I am thinking to cut the 3/3 or 4/2 split of swords and path to add more vinicate in the BW built.

[Nabbydian]

Nice to see you back again.

Anyway below is my B/W deck which i created a few weeks ago and have been playtesting:

Dark Confidant was such a big threat it usually used up my opponents removal thus allowing Knight Exemplar and Haakon through more easily,

Phrexian Metamorph looks like a good addition, worth playtesting IMO.

Mental Misstep: I think it doesnt belongs here. 4x Mental Misstep will change /dilute the deck significantly and it seems like we are playing 4 misteps in oder to counter misteps. Using mistep to protect our knights is also extremely narrow. I dont agree on the mistep as our knights will lose a lot of focus.

Vindicate: I think 3 mana sorcery speed is too slow. Yes it is one of the best removal in the game but with 4x Knight Exemplar, some Mirran Crusader,Haakon etc, there is simply too many 3 drops which we dont want to have in a deck that doesnt have any means to accelerate at all. Unless you play more 1 or 2 drops knights otherwise mana-curve wise i dont think Vindicate is feasible.




//Haakon's Confidant

//Creatures [25]
2 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Dark Confidant
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Student of Warfare

//Spells [15]
4 AEther Vial
2 Buried Alive
2 Entomb
3 Nameless Inversion
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Lands [20]
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp

//Sideboard [15]
2 Retribution of the Meek
4 Extirpate
1 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Orim's Chant
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vindicate

[Seraph2k]

I am very happy to be back;)
Thanks for sharing your new list. Tomorrow I will update mine too and then start testing cause the next tournament is only a few days away...

[Qweerios]

Good day gentlemen,

I made a Vial-Knight deck when Knight Exemplar was spoiled a while ago and used a land denial approach. Since knights seem to have a special place in people's hearts, I thought I would share my list:


Creatures (22)
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4 Steward of Valeron
4 Knight Exemplar
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (18)
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mana Tithe
3 Armageddon
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
6 Plains


Do note that when I created this deck, Mirran Crusader, Accorder Paladin, and Mental Misstep did not exist. If I was to actualize this deck I would change KotR for Mirran Crusader and lose green altogether in favor of a purely white deck. A resillient manabase is very important when going for an Armageddon strategy and the deck is very plains intensive to begin with. Other than that, I would never play a 4CC creature in a legacy AGGRO deck, It is simply too slow. 4CC cards win you the game. I also think that the SFM package is too slow and takes up unecessary deck space for a tribal deck. It is not essential to the win unlike aggro-control decks that rely on fetching the right sword and getting through to win. The strongest equipment for its sheer power level is probably SoFI but Jitte does have the more appealing CMC. As far as 2CC knights are concerned, I believe Sigiled Paladin and Leoning Skyhunter have more to offer than randomly protected Knights and lifelink. Exalted adds more speed to the deck and gives us more edge against innately fat creatures like goyf. Here is what I would use (untested list):


Creatures (23)
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4 Sigiled Paladin
4 Knight Exemplar
3 Mirran Crusader

Spells (11)
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Armageddon

Artifacts (6)
4 Aether Vial
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Flagstones of Trokair
12 Plains

[Seraph2k]

There should be at least two Elspeth in your list. She is everything what we need in our lategame. She can make the difference. Beside that: Mirran + Elspeth = gg.

[Nabbydian]

I'm not sure if geddon knights works. The deck might be too slow to set up. especially with the double W in knights casting cost we cant use Ancient tomb effectively. I might replace Sofi with Jitte as at 3cc it might be too late to cast and equip. Jitte is also more useful when you cast geddon and opponents still has creatures around.

I think Elspeth is worth a look in despite costing 4 mana.

@Seraph2k, i have send you a PM, please check your inbox. cheers.

[Qweerios]

I have tested the following list against aproximately 12 different T1-2 decks. Many of these matches were against aggro-control or pure control/landstill/stax decks, very few pure aggro and no combo:


Creatures (24)
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4 Sigiled Paladin
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader

Spells (11)
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Armageddon

Artifacts (6)
4 Aether Vial
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Flagstones of Trokair
11 Plains

Sideboard (15)
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
4 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aura of Silence
2 Seal of Cleansing


Things I have noted:

-Armageddon is a real bomb against control and has been my saving grace in situations where I was completely shut down. Although, I am now considering Cataclysm as an upgrade.
-Mental Misstep has shone like a thousand suns when laying down my T1 Vial or protecting my 3CC knights from Swords and Paths. Great tempo card along with Vials and Wastelands. Auto 4-of in my book.
-SoFI have been great but I think Jittes would have done an equaly good job a bit quicker.
-Playing 0 Fetchlands and being Wasteland proof has been phenomenal. I only now realize how powerful and resillient a monocolored and fetch-free manabase truly is.
-Knight is a theme, there isn't enough synergy in having multiple knights on the board for us to use knight creatures exclusively(we have 1 lord).
-Knight of the Holy Nimbus, while nearly indestructible, only ever beats for 2 a turn. Thinking about taking them out for Phyrexian Revoker.
-Knight of the White Orchid and Sigiled Paladin could be better, but I guess it is as good as 2CC knights get. Exalted and conditional mana accel is strong, but not as strong as Qasali Pridemage or Tarmogoyf...
-No maindeck answers to artifacts and enchantments is really a sad way of losing G1 to shackles, humility, moat, charged jitte, etc...

[raudo]

Cataclysm is definitely better than Armageddon. I have been crushing my opponents with this list for a while. Of course, we have autoloss to combo but other match ups have been winnable for me. I have been swapping in Mutavaults and Wastelands.. not sure which set is better.

Creatures (23)
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
1 Kinsbaile Cavalier
2 Knight of Meadowgrain

Spells (11)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cataclysm

Artifacts (7)
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Lands (19)
4 Mutavault
4 Flagstones of Trokair
11 Plains

[Qweerios]

Nice list raudo! We use a very similar deck except that you seem to like the SFM package. I will give it a try. Oblivion Ring is also an interresting choice, it acts as a pseudo-Vindicate and provides an answer to Emrakul. How do you like Elspeth? She seems like a win-more card to me and doesn't survive the Cataclysm. Also, has lifelink on Meadowgrain ever been crucial? I have really liked the Exalted ability of Sigiled Paladin thus far when playing the beatdown game and with a SFM package, wouldn't Skyhunter be better? But most importantly, why no love for Mental Misstep?

[jhhdk]

When knights were previously posted someone suggested Chains of Mephistopheles & Anvil of Bogardan lock. Would it be worth considdering in lists running enlighted tutor & Haakon?

[Seraph2k]

Thx for the pm. Nice that we share a nice idea;)

So here is my current updated list, after WG was a bit weak during my last tournament. I kept Stoneforgetoolbox cause it proved its quality. I decided against geddon and cataclysem for one reason (I like the idea of those effects!): If we play one of the two cards we sacrifice one of our great strenghts - our mid/lategame! The first two turns nothing will happen....ok we drop vial, student or something, but our big guys will appear on turn three or later. If we topdeck a second exemplar or a lategame student we NEED mana to get those guys into play with their solid bodys.

Here is my NEW list:

9 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scrubland

4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Elspeth Knight Errant
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Stoneforge Mythic
2 Phyrexian Metamorph


SB:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Serenity
2 Aethersworn Canonist
2 Orims Chant
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Surgical Extraction



As you can see there are some changes. First of all I went back to black but left haakon and mercenary in my binder. Why? They are amazing cause no opponent will counter the mercenary and you can discard haakon. But hey that are at least 7 slots, which could be used much better! Here is the point where Stoneforge shines so bright. He tutor everything you need and cheats it into play. Du to his last tournament performance he is a amazing 3of. But all that is not new...
I kicked out path to exile of the deck. Yes it`s nearly the same than swords, but against random burn you can sword your own creature for life. In addition I will not accelerate my opponent - I know we have KotWOrchid - but not every game!
When I playtested I often faced some annoying things like enchantress and moat/humility and found no answere. My solution are the 4 vindicates, which are slow but they handle everything!
Beside that we reduced our 1 mana targets for mental misstep... but thats not so important.

Phyrexian Metamorph got his chance too. We lose two life on turn three or four but what do we get? In the worsest scenario you have no target and he stays in your hand... maybe there are targets. He can copy a enemy jitte to kill it, he can copy a goyf or stalker, he can copy stoneforge and tutor, he can copy exemplar so make all knights indestructable - you see he is a cc3 critter who can do nearly everything!

My SB changes:
I kept the leylines. They enter the game turn zero and stall, while you cast critters...
The most interesting point is the addition of enlightened tutor. They find serenity, canonist, crypt. You get what you want, if it not countered;)

[Seraph2k]

Update:

During my testings the Metamorph (two of them) was so amazing. He proved that he is a house in this deck. Most of the time he was a copy of exemplar or stoneforge. Maybe he is much better in GW when he can copy a KotR in addition;)

My newed addition is a single Sword of War and Peace. But still no testing results.

[Nabbydian]

Any updates on your Phyrexian Metamorph? I have yet to possess the card thus i havent had the chance to test it out. I'm also having difficulty freeing up space in the deck.

I'm not too keen on geddon and cataclysm as i cant seem to find myself in a better position after the geddon aftermath then before. With so many gofy and tombstalker runnning around, Geddon and cataclysm will barely help in this instance.

You could try the Mox Diamond and Tithe package if you want some speed and CA.

I'm not keen on Sword of War and Peace, it is probably only better than SoLS against Zoo, but Zoo should have enough removals to Kill your creature in response to your equip.

[Seraph2k]

M12 Update: Maybe the new Adaptive automaton could be a new option. But first here are my newest results.

Snow-engine is too fragile vs wastelands.
Mox Diamond and Loam could be strong (in addition: haakon!!!), but we would have to change the complete list and thats currently not neccessary cause I won with both of my lists 50% of the tournament matches with seens to be a solid testbase.

Still unplayed in tournament lists, but one of our greatest cards: Phyrexian Metamorph!
I love him. He saved me so many times... He can do everything. Ok most of the time he copy my mirran or exemplar. But in this times where everyone plays stoneforge metamorph becomes better and better....
copy their stalker, goyf or stoneforge (our our own stoneforge...)!

I haven't tested Sword of War and Peace enough to say something at this time. It's protection ability together with mirran seen on paper amazing and won me in real life some games, but as I said not enough tested.

But in addition I bought a Sword of body and mind which is seen more and more in our format. I think the point is not it's ability to mill and give us a wolf, it's more his protection from jace, KotR, etc.

Beside all of this old choices here is a new one. No innovation in this times, but maybe a strong card in our deck too: Batterskull (sorry I have to name it here...this time...this deck)
Why? Well we (or better my list) plays 3 stoneforges. If the mystic lives long enough to cheat it into play it's good. If he is killed by a removal it's good too cause our opponent lost a removal to a 1/2 vanilla and we can drop a good knight at round three. In this worst case scenario we have to wait till we have five mana, but thats no problem...
A 4/4 lifelinker is always usable, but better is the equip ability in combination with our knights (student...mirran... you see?). And our nice skull is a great target for our living swiss-knife: Metamorph!
Bounceable and ready to copy more interesting targets! Beside that batterskull lifegain makes the metamorphs lifeloss irrelevant.

I hope I was able to get some new players to this great deck with it's style. Give it a try and fell in love with it.

[trivial_matters]

Snow-engine is too fragile vs wastelands.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but snow-covered lands can't be destroyed by Wasteland.

[Nabbydian]

I'm not sure what you mean here, but snow-covered lands can't be destroyed by Wasteland.

He is actually referring to the Snow-Engine (which consists of Scrying Sheet and Snow-covered lands for card advantage). However once your scrying sheet get removed the snow-covered lands are meh...

i also play the Mighty Quinn deck which utilise Snow-Engine for CA and it is very difficult to set up with everyone running 4 wastelands.

[Seraph2k]

Exactly;) Wastlands destroy our scrying sheets and then our draw engine is offline.

[Seraph2k]

So today I found some time and tested with the following list:
4 Marsh Flats
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scrubland
9 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
2 Elspeth Knight Errant
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of War and Peace

Results:
I have to change my list… some things where powerful, other things where horrible.

Bad performance:
Sword of War and Peace: Changes nothing at the boardposition. Life is irrelevant cause you can often kill with one crusader hit. Never searched for it with mystics. 5 Equipments are too much, 4 for the toolbox are enough.

Vindicate aka Blacksplash: It feels stronger than greensplash. You can handle every permanent with vindicate which is so important when you compare a humility with a from the top qasali and a from the top vindicate.
Haakon and buried alive are now in my binder and will get their chance in a few month NOT earlier!)

Sidenote: As you know the vindicates filled the slots from the path to exiles. All day long I missed the additional cc1 removel beside my 4 swords. (vind ist good, but we need more than 4 cc1 spotremovals)

Good performance:
Batterskull: I tutored it a lot. When you cast mystic turn two and reveal your batterskull it reads like: Opponent please use your removal and kill me as quick as possible or will smash your face. It’s like a free removal discard spell, which protects our more important knights (mirran, student, exemplar) from death. I feel it deserves one spot. If you find it in the middle or lategame and equip it it’s gg like Elspeth.

Metamorph again was a house. Copying Jitte, Batterskull, Obliterator, etc.

So what are the consequences for my current list:
- Sword of War and Peace (maybe SB)

Important for me is the fact that we can’t create CA. I think here your Haakons Confidant-List is the key to your future. I will try to get a playset of confidants in the new list. So maybe the amazing metamorphes have to go (beside SoWaP). Then I add 4 confis which will lead to a 61 card list;)
He will be a great addition and create some CA. What do you think?

[Nabbydian]

Saw in an article from Magic salvation's -spooky-:

extracted some information here:

"One of the deck mentioned in the article was a mono-white Knights deck, which was able to finish fourth out of an 88-man tournament in March of 2011:"

White Knights
Creatures- 27
4 Hero of Bladehold
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Leonin Skyhunter
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Student of Warfare
4 Wall of Omens
4 White Knight

Other Spells-13
1 Elspeth Tirel
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands-20
4 Arid Mesa
16 Plains

"The premier tribal White Weenie deck, Knights, excels in its matches against creature-based decks. "

"What's great about this deck is its power against creature based decks. Knight Exemplar resolving usually spells "GG" against Merfolk, who have no main board removal short of Jitte. Making all of your creatures indestructible is much better than you may initially think. Not only does it stop a lot of spot removal and burn cards from targeting and killing your Knights, it stops some of the cards that would be considered excellent sideboard tech against White Weenie. Board wipes like Wrath of God, Firespout, Engineered Explosives, and Pernicious Deed all work well against most White Weenie decks, but not Knights. With Knight Exemplar on the field you don't have to worry about a single board wipe in the game. The sharing of indestructible also gives you an infinite number of chump blocks to buy as much time as you want if needed. Swarming the field is made easier with Hero of Bladehold and both versions of Elspeth. This makes it extremely hard for any deck that tries to win using creatures to ever fulfill such a strategy against you."

The decklist included some cards which i always felt doesnt really works well in knights, especially Honor of the Pure & Hero of Bladehold. However we have no information of the meta, and at first glance it looks very much like a standard deck.

However most importantly, it was able to finish around the top decks in that tournament. I understand this may be a flash in the pan but at least it has done it.

[Nabbydian]

I'm not sure if anyone is playing Knights, anyway I got around to playing Legacy knights again recently so I thought I should give an update on the viability of Knights in Legacy.

Yesterday I played against my mate's home-brewed Blue/Black/White Snapcaster deck (looks like a variant of Team America but with a white splash) with key components such as:

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Swords to Plowshares
Unknown quantities of:
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Daze
Spell Snare
Stoneforge Mystic
Sword of Feast and Famine
Batterskull
Fetches
Underground Sea
Scrubland
Tundra


That's what I could recall from his deck, which is almost everything I guess.

Before the game I had an idea (it's not difficult to guess what are the spells - the usual suspects again) of my matchup, while my mate knows my deck inside-out since he has seen and played against many times. I thought it would be an average matchup but surprisingly, I managed to win all 4 games pretty handily, with average draws for both of us (no god draw for either of us here). I also expected him to mana-screw but he didnt, managing to cast his Jace and Hymns somewhat easily.

During the last game, he managed to cast 4 Snapcaster mage and in the process Swords to Plowshares me 6 times and Thoughtseize me twice. One of the Thoughseize was flashback on my Stoneforge after Jace, the Mind Sculptor bounced it. Eventually he scooped because I had a Sword of Fire and Ice in play, and managed to equip a creature which he ran out of removals for. Jace, the Mind Sculptor couldnt bounce the creature and he couldnt draw into his final Swords to Plowshares at that point while he also lost his win-con Batterskull earlier on to my pridemage.

It's nice to know Legacy Knights still has a decent matchup against control, although against Combo it's still an auto-loss.

Anyway below is the deck I was running against him, eventually it was the combined threats from Aether Vial, Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Package, Student of Warfare(with it's early beatdown) the key in this matchup:

Green and White Legacy Vial Knights - March 2012


//Creatures [27]
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Student of Warfare

//Planeswalkers [2]
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


//Artifacts [7]
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

//Spells [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Lands [20]
2 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

//SIDEBOARD
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Orim's Chant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tormod's Crypt

[Seraph2k]

Don't forget Thalia. Decent body... can help vs combo, but leyline is amazing.

[Nabbydian]

Don't forget Thalia. Decent body... can help vs combo, but leyline is amazing.

There's also Grand Abolisher, which further enhances matchups against control.

Leyline is truly amazing for us. Especially since we are white, we can still cast it when we draw into it in game 2.

[Nabbydian]

Now that we have a few new knights from Avacyn Restored, how would Silverblade Paladin fare in Legacy Knights? The double strike from Paladin's soulbind may be useful but does it has a place in a format notorious for being creature removal happy?

[Seraph2k]

Ordered 4 of them, but I am still waiting for them...

[Nabbydian]

After having some unplayable knights such as Griffin Rider and Spectral Rider from M12 and Innistrad respectively (Nothing from DKA!) :rolleyes:,

I'm quite happy to see a few new knights from Avacyn Restored, we haven't seen so many knights in a set since Mirrodin Beseiged.

Here is the short & humble review I have made of the Knights from Avacyn Restored! Feel free to comment or critique.

Legacy Knights from Avacyn Restored

Fervent Cathar
I tend to compare this card with Skyknight Legionnaire. I think I might play this card if I build a Mono-Red Knights deck. However it won't be competitive as there simply isn't sufficient good red knights to justify going all red. However, he does curve with Hero of Oxid Ridge and helps in getting our knights though for player damage. Keep in view but little hopes on this particular knight.

Gryff Vanguard
Flying is useful and it cantrips itself. But at 5cc? This knight is build for limited format.

Hanweir Lancer
Not so useful when most of the knights already have first strike. It does not have first strike on his own, no haste for a red knight and is rather high on 3cc. I'm happier with Blood Knight anytime. This knight belongs to the kitchen table.

Riders of Gavony
Vigilance is always welcomed, although not a necessity.
Most of the knight creatures are human as well, so its protection ability is relevant - however the issue here is the protection against creatures type is a remote ability which is not suitable/relevant/useful in a competitive legacy meta.
Strictly for casual games and good especially in casual tribal matchups.

Silverblade Paladin
The jury is still out on this card. He is able to pull in some combat tricks with Aether Vial. Because of his identical casting cost, on the surface, he seems to be jostling with Mirran Crusader for the 3cc slot, however the effectiveness of Paladin may well depends on the setup of the deck. A more aggro build with less reliant on protection and planeswalker may justify Paladin inclusion. I'm not sure how soulbind will impact a format like legacy which is notorious for efficient creature removal spells, which is why my gut feel is still towards protection rather than soulbind.

Conclusion:
It seems only Silverblade Paladin is playable. The remaining knights from Avacyn Restored failed to make the cut into even a semi-competitive knights deck.

[Seraph2k]

It seems only Silverblade Paladin is playable.

Thats fact. My Paladins were lost, so I have to wait for a new playset. But I think the new caverns can help us a lot ;)

[Nabbydian]

Thats fact. My Paladins were lost, so I have to wait for a new playset. But I think the new caverns can help us a lot ;)

Sad to hear that, the Paladins won't be difficult to find, so hopefully you will get them soon.

I just got a few Caverns, but still dread playing them for fear of being target for Wasteland. The deck can't afford to lose any lands, and I'm thinking 20 lands with 4 Aether Vial might not be enough now that we are running some non-basics, I'll probably need to increase the land count slightly to deal with this.

[Seraph2k]

I hope that my paladins will arrive soon...

But we got new meat for our deck:

Knight of Infamy 1B: 2/1 prot white and exalted
Knight of Glory 1W: 2/1 prot black and exalted

[Zupponn]

Very cool idea to try out knights in legacy. I think that they could really work in a mono white or W/x shell.

By the way, my personal favorite knight is Lim-Dûl's Paladin, but I don't think he's too playable in legacy. He does have some great flavor though.:laugh:

[Seraph2k]

You are right about the Paladin ;)
But try the previous builts. each of them has its owl style.

If you want to go the gravebased way buy haakons and mercinary knights, which are really great. or the the white and green deck.

I prefer the white/black one. There you have the stoneforges, vindicates and a combination of carddraw with confidants, removal via swords and a lot of good stuff.

[Nabbydian]

I hope that my paladins will arrive soon...

But we got new meat for our deck:

Knight of Infamy 1B: 2/1 prot white and exalted
Knight of Glory 1W: 2/1 prot black and exalted

Hope your paladins have arrived!

Too bad they don't have first strike, knights always used to be good defenders because of that.

Still, I think they could go into some knight variants. Time to start brewing again? :wink:


Very cool idea to try out knights in legacy. I think that they could really work in a mono white or W/x shell.

By the way, my personal favorite knight is Lim-Dûl's Paladin, but I don't think he's too playable in legacy. He does have some great flavor though.:laugh:

Lim-Dûl's Paladin is so old school. Too bad he is not good enough. Would like to have a chance to form a B/R knights deck though. :smile:


You are right about the Paladin ;)
But try the previous builts. each of them has its owl style.

If you want to go the gravebased way buy haakons and mercinary knights, which are really great. or the the white and green deck.

I prefer the white/black one. There you have the stoneforges, vindicates and a combination of carddraw with confidants, removal via swords and a lot of good stuff.

The 2 exalted knights from M13 might fit into a white/black Haakon & Knight Exemplar build, since they are definitely easier to cast in the earlier turns, so we don't face the WW and BB mana issues earlier on.

[Aes Sedai]

Old thread but I've had a lot of success playing this deck

Creatures (26)
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Paladin en-vec

Spells (13)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Land (21)
20 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair

Sideboard (15)
4 Disenchant
2 Runed Halo
3 Rest in Peace
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Ethersworn Canonist

[Lemnear]

Want to elaborate what "a lot of success" means? I can't even draw adequate parallels between this white knights vial feat. SFM and Death&Taxes as you lack all instances of control or denial.

Why no Wastelands, no Thalia, only 3 Vials, no Fetches to slightly thin out the deck, etc?

[BVB09]

no Fetches to slightly thin out the deck, etc?

I guess because non-DRS decks want to make opposing DRS as useless as posible. And also the lifeloss makes sometimes the difference.
(I point that because that's one of the reasons we're not splashing a color in Merfolks)
But yes, I would definately add the Wastelands

[Lemnear]

I guess because non-DRS decks want to make opposing DRS as useless as posible. And also the lifeloss makes sometimes the difference.
(I point that because that's one of the reasons we're not splashing a color in Merfolks)
But yes, I would definately add the Wastelands

It's sad that such thoughts were not brought up in the OP. I can see rendering DRS mana-ability useless a point, but the overall question I hace in regards to the manabase is why it did not go the way of D&T to have midgame value with Wasteland and Ports or why you need 21 lands in that weenie/vial strategyut decide to run only 3 Vials if half your deck are 2-3cc creatures which you can cheat in while attacking your opponents manabase.

The OP completely lacks any arguments on why this approach to white weenie is any better than Death & Taxes itself other than claiming to have "a lot of success with it" I cannot see based on a lot of random numbers and decisions made like the random Flagstone, only 3 Vials, only 3 SFM but 4 Equipments w/o Batterskull (!!), complete lack of combo hate (3-off Leyline is pointless if you want it in your opening hand; Show&Tell or Reanimator isn't even adressed in the 75).

Atm I really have a problem to see anything other than weak tribal approach to White Weenie with a decklist bent to the knights theme.


P.S. if you don't want to run Thalia, Wasteland or Port to attack your opponents mana, you have to think about equalizers like Cataclysm

[Aes Sedai]

Batterskull has a five cost to equip. If you get up to five lands with this deck, you're going to lose the game. I understand it comes into play as a dude and can be cheated in with Stoneforge but I'd rather just have a sword at that point. Batterskull isn't anywhere near as strong as the swords when it comes to aggro in this deck. Batterskull slows you down.

You're saying I should have 4 Stoneforge Mystic with 4 equipment? Doesn't really make sense.

You're complaining about missing one Leyline in the SB and saying therefore the other 3 are useless? Doesn't really make sense.

I've found 3 Vials is better than 4 because you don't want or need multiple Vials in this deck. Considering the low costs, your hand is generally empty by turn 4. The last thing you want to draw at that point is another Vial.

Wasteland is bad because there are too many cards with solid white costing mana such as Student, Meadowgrain, and White Orchid. One plains one wasteland opening hand doesn't help you. Same with Rishidan Port. Good lands to disrupt your opponent but that isn't what this deck is trying to do. These lands slow you down and makes draws more inconsistent.

Thalia is not a Knight. It's already running 3 Stoneforges which aren't Knights. For Knight Exemplar to be effective, we need to run as many Knights as possible. If I were to add 2 Thalia, for example, 20% of the creature base would be non-Knights. Not good.

And why are you comparing this to Death and Taxes? That would be like comparing Elves or Goblins to Death and Taxes. D&T isn't straight aggro last time I checked, it was also pretty heavy control.

[Lemnear]

Batterskull has a five cost to equip. If you get up to five lands with this deck, you're going to lose the game. I understand it comes into play as a dude and can be cheated in with Stoneforge but I'd rather just have a sword at that point. Batterskull isn't anywhere near as strong as the swords when it comes to aggro in this deck. Batterskull slows you down.


First, you don't play Batterskull to equip it to another creature but because SFM+Batterskull is real cardadvantage and a powerful threat for a very low cost, especially if vialed in eot. I really have no clue how you can compare 1W+1W as costs for a Batterskull with 2-3 mana for a creature + 5 mana for a Sword & equip aka up to 7-8 mana in total for an equipted Knight. I don't see how Batterskull is "slow" compared to that

You're saying I should have 4 Stoneforge Mystic with 4 equipment? Doesn't really make sense.


That's not that I said. I said that running 2 Jitte and several swords but only 3 SFM doesn't make sense to find the right tool in time.

You're complaining about missing one Leyline in the SB and saying therefore the other 3 are useless? Doesn't really make sense.


It doesn't make sense to reduce the chance of having one in the opening hand for a card which is near dead as a draw. It's not that having 2 in your opening hand is bad against ANT because this requires your opponent to find 2 Chain of Vapor. Leyline is like FoW: You absolutely want one in your opening hand to not lose to storm

I've found 3 Vials is better than 4 because you don't want or need multiple Vials in this deck. Considering the low costs, your hand is generally empty by turn 4. The last thing you want to draw at that point is another Vial.


same as for Leyline or Force of will against combo. I don't see why having vials @ 2 & 3 are bad or why having 2 is bad in a world of Abrupt Decay. It's not that you have that many one-drops in the deck from the start. Never wondered why 4 Vial are standard in Meerfolk, D&T & Goblins?

Wasteland is bad because there are too many cards with solid white costing mana such as Student, Meadowgrain, and White Orchid. One plains one wasteland opening hand doesn't help you. Same with Rishidan Port. Good lands to disrupt your opponent but that isn't what this deck is trying to do. These lands slow you down and makes draws more inconsistent.


This is the point we really need to ask ourselves if the named creatures are really better than Wasteland and Port against the metagame with all it's Tarmogoyfs and Delver which have a much higher powerlevel as Knight of the Meadowgrain

Thalia is not a Knight. It's already running 3 Stoneforges which aren't Knights. For Knight Exemplar to be effective, we need to run as many Knights as possible. If I were to add 2 Thalia, for example, 20% of the creature base would be non-Knights. Not good.


There is the point I mentioned in my last post. You don't care for efficiency or success, but only for the Knights.dec theme the OP brought up

And why are you comparing this to Death and Taxes? That would be like comparing Elves or Goblins to Death and Taxes. D&T isn't straight aggro last time I checked, it was also pretty heavy control.


Elves is an aggro-combo deck and Goblins died at a time like Zoo BECAUSE those are pure aggro concepts. Pure Aggro is dead for a reason

[Zupponn]

I don't think that pure aggro is dead, but just waiting for the meta to shift a little. People are still putting up good results with decks like Zoo and Goblins.

[Lemnear]

I don't think that pure aggro is dead, but just waiting for the meta to shift a little. People are still putting up good results with decks like Zoo and Goblins.

Goblins is slowly returning thanks to Miracles and itself being an engine deck with vial. Miracles aside, it has the same problems that made it vanish 2 years ago. Haven't seen Zoo putting up any results for ages

[Kayradis]

Calm the f*ck down Lemnear.
IMHO, Knight is not a T1 deck.
But a sweet T2.5 list in the good meta.

[MoxBropal]

Cool list. Here are some ideas:

-Wrath of God - can be amazing for you with a Knight Exemplar in play
-Hero of Bladehold (maybe cut Paladin en-Vec)
-I would go up to 4 Vials, giving you 8 turn-1 plays (not including StP). If I was playing this deck I would absolutely hate keeping a hand without a 1-drop dude or a Vial.
-Cavern of Souls

[Seraph2k]

Why should he play wrath? He is the aggro part... I played knights a lot in legacy and believe me it so so rare that you will have two exemplar on the table. Play with spotremoval and that will do the job.

[AlterEgo]

Necromancy is fun

In a long time of building, disassembling and rebuilding different versions of the knights deck, I found the one thing I missed most in all incarnations was CARD DRAW.
I'll admit, the following statements - in terms of tournament viability - are pure theory. I didn't have the opportunity to test my decklist in a real Legacy meta.
Nevertheless, I believe my two cents are worth posting here.

First I came across Puresteel Paladin. With a playset of Vials and Stoneforge Mystic already there, he only needs a few more equipments to enable both his abilities.
Basilisk Collar makes the first strikers become really annoying - even lifelink on a Crusader can get out of hand.
Collar, one of each *good* Sword plus Jitte were not enough, but before further watering down the deck just to enable Metalcraft, I first looked for some other tools.

Vials made me think of Standstill and splashing Blue I had no excuse not to play Brainstorm.


//Lands (19)
4 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Mistveil Plains
5 Plains
1 Tundra

//Spells (16)
1 Basilisk Collar
3 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Æther Vial

//Creatures (23)
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Puresteel Paladin
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Student of Warfare


The next three changes are obvious:
- swap Hallowed Fountain for Tundra
- add 1 Brainstorm
- add 2 Swords to Plowshares
My explanation is simple: this decklist was meant to participate in a local TRIBAL tournament and therefore needs 1/3 knight cards. And I simply don't have more than 1 Tundra
I'd probably cut 2 White Orchid and 1 Student.

On the lack of Wastelands: I shied away from them because of the high amount of {W} in mana costs.

I experience this deck as synergistic and stable, but as I said, I have no competitive experiences to share, yet.