[SCD] Mental Misstep

[Philipp2293]

So, not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but could this lead to Mystical Tutor beeing safe for unban? I guess it's time to wait until the dust settles. Your thoughts?

[Shawon]

What are you talking about? Are you insinuating that Mental Mistep could make combo unviable and Mystical Tutor could be thus safe to unban because it's 1cc and Mistep will still counter it?

[a-slice-of-cake]

In regards to Mystical Tutor: Just because something can be answered -- even answered efficiently -- does not make it balanced or suitable to reappear.

[kiblast]

What are you talking about? Are you insinuating that Mental Mistep could make combo unviable and Mystical Tutor could be thus safe to unban because it's 1cc and Mistep will still counter it?

He's just meaning that with the printing of Misstep, that will probably be played by lots of decks, playing cc1 tutors becomes a bit less reliable. In my opinion, Mystical should be unbanned, even pre-Misstep.

[Hanni]

Mystical Tutor didn't need banned in the first place, but let's not open that can of worms in an SCD thread about a different card...

[Grollub]

So, not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but could this lead to Mystical Tutor beeing safe for unban? I guess it's time to wait until the dust settles. Your thoughts?
My thoughts? Following that kind of reasoning we could unban Demonic Tutor too since we have Spell Snare. ;-)

But joking aside, I agree with a-slice-of-cake's reasoning and with Hanni's remark - please let not the thread degenerate into yet another Mystical Tutor argument...

My thoughts on the card: it's "just" a tier 1 counter, some changes will be made to mainboards, a new deck or two might emerge but I doubt it'll change the face of Legacy as we know it. Wouldn't mind being proven wrong tho - I love when formats get shaken around by new sets.

[Koby]

Here's a novel idea: let's wait for this card to make an appearance in the metagame first; wait three months; then re-evaluate the B&R list.

[Shawon]

He's just meaning that with the printing of Misstep, that will probably be played by lots of decks, playing cc1 tutors becomes a bit less reliable. In my opinion, Mystical should be unbanned, even pre-Misstep.

I hope he didn't mean that. By that logic, why not just unban Demonic Consultation or Ancestral Recall since Mistep makes them a bit less reliable?

[kiblast]

I hope he didn't mean that. By that logic, why not just unban Demonic Consultation or Ancestral Recall since Mistep makes them a bit less reliable?

You do realize the difference or you are just trolling?

[Shawon]

If you use the reasoning that Mistep makes Mystical Tutor weaker, then it can said of DC (maybe not Ancestral, but yeah I was being an ass there :p). More importantly, the card is not even out yet and people won't be able to play it in tournaments until a month from now. It's pointless to speculate about unbannings or bannings caused by NPH when we haven't even seen any tournament results yet.

[kiblast]

If you use the reasoning that Mistep makes Mystical Tutor weaker, then it can said of DC (maybe not Ancestral, but yeah I was being an ass there :p). More importantly, the card is not even out yet and people won't be able to play it in tournaments until a month from now. It's pointless to speculate about unbannings or bannings caused by NPH when we haven't even seen anything yet.

DC is still better than Mystical imho.By the way:



Here's a novel idea: let's wait for this card to make an appearance in the metagame first; wait three months; then re-evaluate the B&R list.


That's what I think is better. And, for the record, even if Mental Misstep would not exist I would still unban Mystical.

[Shawon]

Exactly! We've come to an agreement that we should just wait out the results and that the original question was a stupid one!

[ivanpei]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21700_Quick_Question_Is_Mental_Misstep_Going_to_Change_Legacy_or_is_it_Overhyped.html

Anyway, apparently we aren't crazy. Pros think it's freaking busted as well.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21700_Quick_Question_Is_Mental_Misstep_Going_to_Change_Legacy_or_is_it_Overhyped.html

Anyway, apparently we aren't crazy. Pros think it's freaking busted as well.


I don't understand how a card can be that good if it's just a one-for-one.

The Hell?

Swords to Plowshares? Strip Mine? Does that means that Force of Will sucks?

[ivanpei]

Well Gerard Fabiano is playing a deck that has Red and White but plays Bolts instead of Plows... He also has Grim Lavamancer, no excuse not to play Plows IMO. I believe he's a great player, but regarding card evaluation and deck design, not so much.

[perm]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21700_Quick_Question_Is_Mental_Misstep_Going_to_Change_Legacy_or_is_it_Overhyped.html

Anyway, apparently we aren't crazy. Pros think it's freaking busted as well.

It being absurd is self evident; the people trying to disagree in this thread are just contrarian hipsters

[Shawon]

Well Gerard Fabiano is playing a deck that has Red and White but plays Bolts instead of Plows... He also has Grim Lavamancer, no excuse not to play Plows IMO. I believe he's a great player, but regarding card evaluation and deck design, not so much.

He plays 4 StP in the sideboard. He probably didn't MD them because he felt he could get by with burn and disruption against most creature decks game 1. The preference of Vindicate over StP in the MD indicates the focus on disruption.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

For people who are talking about playing this in Zoo, Goblins or other non-blue decks... or really any deck at that, you do realize that you need to actually put this card in the deck, right?

I mean to say that you can't just have it in your hand when your opponent casts that clutch, game-winning 1cc spell, but you will actually have to cut a card from your deck to play it.

I know this is a fundamental step in deck building, but look at it this way: You need to identify the card in your deck that is 100% worse than Mental Misstep and then play it over it. This means in Zoo, you would literally have to cut a card that actively kills your opponent so that you can play a card that you can pay 2 life to counter whatever their turn one play is.

This means for a fish deck, that you want to play all of the sweet Blue, black and/or white cards that you already wanted to play, Force of Will, Daze, Dark Confidant, Swords to Plowshares, etc... and then cut one of those cards out and play Mental Misstep in it's place. I see the slot being cut most often as Thoughtseize, but Mental Misstep is clearly not always better than Thoughtseze.

The idea that you can counter so many spells with this card is great and all that, but that's like making a list of all the cards that Force of Will can counter and then surmising that becuase Force of Will can counter a Brainstorm, that is clearly what you're supposed to do.

I doubt many of you have, but I've done testing against this card already and the results were pretty much what I anticipated them being from the decks I tested against. Either the effect was minimal, but annoying, or the effect was negligible and a hindrance to my opponent's game plan.

Also, for those of you who are claiming that you need to play Mental Misstep to counter opposing copies of the card, that seems like one of the worst uses of the card imaginable unless it's countering your Entomb or Reanimate.

That said, I'm highly in favor of everyone playing this card.

I think zoo is a bad example here. I actually think zoo is the gameplan hurt most by MM. Zoo does not benefit from removal protection as much as tribal strategies do because zoo creatures are just big stupid fighters. Every creature can be replaced by another, they all just beat hard. They are hurt the most from the tempo loss if their first turn drop is countered (especially on the play) because they have no synergy to make up for the tempo loss (like tribal lords have).

Tribal decks on the other hand benefit greatly from spot removal protection, their gameplan is their creature synergies. If they can protect their lords their strategy is harder to hate. Plus they gain a tempo boost against zoo like decks to get into stages of the game where their card advantage and synergy overwhelm zoo. Just think about turn 1 lackey on the play backed up by MM :)

[The_Red_Panda]

It being absurd is self evident; the people trying to disagree in this thread are just contrarian hipsters

I would be careful about what you call self evident. The notion that the card is incredibly good is not ill-founded, but self-evident absurdity in power level is a bit too far. It will be played (tested), quite a bit, in a variety of decks. That much we can tell simply from the amount of discussion that's occurring concerning the card. But what decks it will ultimately enhance to the extent that it merits inclusion over the numerous other options present is, as of yet, relatively unknown. That much is evident, again, by the extent and content of the discussion of said card. It is not, however, good to the extent that we can preemptively tell that it will merit banning, or that stratagems will be devised entirely for the abuse of this card, and this card alone. It is limited in the scope of its ability to interact with the opponent, and if it is as good as you claim it to be, seems to establish a sort of cyclical relationship with the format, where its usability will be directly limited by how many people are using it, or more precisely how many people are attempting to build with it in mind.

All of these ideas are ones already expressed in this thread, and none of them lack merit on the basis that they're founded solely with the intent to posture. The idea that those expressing them are 'contrarian hipsters' as you put it, seems ill-founded. That being said, the notion that this card will bring about definite metagame shifts within legacy is one I am obviously unopposed to. It will change things, and I would be willing to wager that most (if not all) of the people in this thread realize this. Their disagreement is not so much on the level of "this card is very, very good, and merits a ton of testing", but "this card will see play in every deck ever". One of those statements I'm in complete agreement with, the other is, well, self-evidently absurd.

[nwong]

Their disagreement is not so much on the level of "this card is very, very good, and merits a ton of testing", but "this card will see play in every deck ever".

^This.

[perm]

Will it see play in every deck? of course not, that's just as ridiculous as saying this card will barely see play. Will it see play in not-blue and non-tempo decks? Almost certainly, and that's why so many people are alarmed about the format defining/warping nature of this card in legacy

[Mr. Safety]

Can we talk about how many good cheap Blue cards a deckbuilder needs to decide over?

Brainstorm
Ponder
Stifle
Force
Mental Misstep
Daze
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare

Building Legacy decks is hard after this printing, as Misstep forces everyone to start from the ground up! Very exciting format, imo

I agree...this is what legacy needed. It doesn't make old powerful cards less relivant, it makes decision making skills MORE relivant. Kudos to WotC, and I'm just SO GLAD that they were willing to try out 'free' spells again. It's been too long since they had a Daze/Force of Will/Snuff Out card that is worth playing in the maindeck...I mean Mindbreak Trap is great tech, but who plays that MAINDECK?

I am looking forward to abusing this particular sub-set of cards in my Faeries deck. Brainstorm, Spell Pierce/Snare, and Daze are already in the mix...not sure what Mental Misstep will do for me, considering I don't have any Force of Wills...

[Rune]

Thank heavens for this card. We were almost at a point where non-Brainstorm decks had become playable, but this should set things straight again.

[GGoober]

The Hell?

Swords to Plowshares? Strip Mine? Does that means that Force of Will sucks?

Yeah FoW sucks, it's a 2-1.

:P

[RexFTW]

Yeah FoW sucks, it's a 2-1.

:P

technically FOW is a 1:2 not 2:1 :)

[Admiral_Arzar]

Thank heavens for this card. We were almost at a point where non-Brainstorm decks had become playable, but this should set things straight again.

LMAO. I hadn't thought about it that way. But remember, this card COUNTERS Brainstorm :P

[perm]

Yes, this card will actually become asymptotically better, because as the general mana curve gets more 1cc heavy, this card becomes better and increases in top 8 appearance, until every deck is 60 mental missteps

[Rune]

LMAO. I hadn't thought about it that way. But remember, this card COUNTERS Brainstorm :P

That is true, but we most remember the main reason this card was printed is completely different: WotC has done a lot of market research on Legacy, and they have found out that a lot of young kids have been able to buy into the format because of relatively cheap decks like Dredge, TES, Combo Elves and Goblins. We all know that WotC's goal is to make Legacy as inaccessible and unfun as possible for new players, so when they witnessed a 13-year old kid dismantle a pimped out blue deck piloted by a beard-wielding adult (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qwm904bq3s&feature=player_embedded), they decided things had gone way too far. In order to kill two birds with one stone, they came up with this card. Not only would the card make most budget decks a lot worse (losing g1 to everything blue is fun, huh, Dredge bastards?!?), it would also increase the price of FoW and all blue duals, making the format's best decks even more unattainable. Lastly, Wizards is aware that kids hate getting their shit countered, so they decided to really crank up the unfunness and frustration level of the card by making it free and available to all colors


They thought no one would notice this subtle attempt at killing the format. They thought no one would stop and wonder why yet another ridiculous blue card was printed. But I am here, and I see things clearly. If I don't make another post again, it'll most likely be because I have been banned from the forums, or because I have been kidnapped by WotC's ninjas for exposing the truth one too many times.

[Pich]

Kikoo, you are paranoiac. ^^
I'm a kid (14yo) and i'm freaking happy they print Misstep, my Merfolk deck is gonna get better!

[Admiral_Arzar]

That is true, but we most remember the main reason this card was printed is completely different: WotC has done a lot of market research on Legacy, and they have found out that a lot of young kids have been able to buy into the format because of relatively cheap decks like Dredge, TES, Combo Elves and Goblins. We all know that WotC's goal is to make Legacy as inaccessible and unfun as possible for new players, so when they witnessed a 13-year old kid dismantle a pimped out blue deck piloted by a beard-wielding adult (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qwm904bq3s&feature=player_embedded), they decided things had gone way too far. In order to kill two birds with one stone, they came up with this card. Not only would the card make most budget decks a lot worse (losing g1 to everything blue is fun, huh, Dredge bastards?!?), it would also increase the price of FoW and all blue duals, making the format's best decks even more unattainable. Lastly, Wizards is aware that kids hate getting their shit countered, so they decided to really crank up the unfunness and frustration level of the card by making it free and available to all colors


They thought no one would notice this subtle attempt at killing the format. They thought no one would stop and wonder why yet another ridiculous blue card was printed. But I am here, and I see things clearly. If I don't make another post again, it'll most likely be because I have been banned from the forums, or because I have been kidnapped by WotC's ninjas for exposing the truth one too many times.

I actually had similar thoughts when I read the card for the first time. I'm pretty sure my initial thought was ZOMGWTFBBQPWN ARE THEY THINKING?!!11??111 or something to that effect. Maybe it'll end up getting banhammered and we won't have to worry LOL.


Kikoo, you are paranoiac. ^^
I'm a kid (14yo) and i'm freaking happy they print Misstep, my Merfolk deck is gonna get better!

Of course you're happy they printed it, blue player. YOU WOULD BE.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Thank heavens for this card. We were almost at a point where non-Brainstorm decks had become playable, but this should set things straight again.

You're misevaluating the format. Blue isn't the best color because it crushes everything, it's the best color because the tools it offers you also work against combo. In a straight heads-up, blue-based aggro decks based mostly around beats and 1-for-1 cards have no particular advantage over those that don't run blue, with some variance for specific decklists. Their statistical advantage is in breaking combo, which non-blue decks tend to be overwhelmingly disfavored against. Even discard isn't particularly good against High Tide these days, since they only really need two cards, High Tide and Time Spiral, to have a 95% shot at comboing off.

If combo takes a hit it reduces the incentive to play Brainstorm. There are just better cards to play in a format where the average swing turn is 4.5 and critters on the ground are the main wincons.

Of course, those decks still require duals, even if they're the cheaper ones, which gets back to your other point which seems to be a non-sequitur. Dual-based decks with expensive Legacy staples like Force, Wasteland, Mazes, Mox Diamonds, Aether Vials, etc., etc.. haven't gotten any less common recently. Affinity, Elves, and Ichorid have all gotten a bit of tournament showing lately, but in addition to being budget decks they also share in common that they're laughably fragile glass cannons, completely hosed by some very commonly played main or side cards. Elves can't deal with Lavamancer or Jitte effectively, in addition to having problems with any deck that packs more than six or so removal spells, Affinity gets hosed by maindeck Deeds or sideboard Null Roads, the latter of which lets anyone completely shut down their deck for two mana, and there's a dozen or so ways for any deck to beat Ichorid for one mana or less, sometimes even drawing a card in the process.

Legacy is expensive and that's a separate problem, but I don't see how Mental Misstep adds to this, and it may even help a bit. As the format slows mana bases become more important, and the incentives to go three colors should diminish.



Yes, this card will actually become asymptotically better, because as the general mana curve gets more 1cc heavy, this card becomes better and increases in top 8 appearance, until every deck is 60 mental missteps

That's just silly. Everyone knows the correct build is 14 Island, 44 Mental Misstep, 2 Brain Freeze.

[Forbiddian]

Aggro Summer, coming to a store near you, Summer 2011.

What the fuck, Wizards?! I poke in to check out what cool new cards they've printed and I find out that Zoo rapes the entire current metagame. I hope that this is a hoax or something (or at least it requires that you have an Island in play to cast it). Maybe you could metagame a slow control deck or a stompy deck or something, I dunno, but the current checks and balances that keep Zoo from dominating all are now strictly and greatly diminished.

Metagame has "survived" bigger changes, though. Tarmogoyf, Wild Nacatl, Qasali Pridemage....

[Angelfire]

Mental Misstep is great. Easily the best card in NPH. [Snip. - Bardo] I definitely think it will make legacy more fun and more interactive. Decks will have to rely on not being one trick ponies and pack a larger overall threat density. If a deck countering your one drop makes you lose, you deserve to lose.

Pointlessly hostile and rude comment delete. Verbal warning for that. - Bardo

[Aggro_zombies]

That's just silly. Everyone knows the correct build is 14 Island, 44 Mental Misstep, 2 Brain Freeze.
Just wait 'til I show up with a 5 Swamp, 4 Thrumming Stone, 51 Relentless Rats deck and wreck your faces! Mental Misstep THIS!

[joven]

A free counterspell without color requirement: WotC must be insane!

I have a strong feeling that MM might be bad for the gameplay:
1. WotC broke their own rules (the color pie) by making this card. That's the literal definition of a broken card.
2. It is strong and you can play it in every deck (no color requirement). -> That does not support creativity, that hinders it. It's like Goyf but worse.
3. It counters itself. So nearly every game will be: "MM" - "I MM your MM." - "But I MM your MM." And that's over and over again every fucking game.
4. Dumb luck gives the advantage. If you don't have it in your opening hand and your opponent has one, you're in trouble.

[Angelfire]

A free counterspell without color requirement: WotC must be insane!

I have a strong feeling that MM might be bad for the gameplay:
1. WotC broke their own rules (the color pie) by making this card. That's the literal definition of a broken card.
2. It is strong and you can play it in every deck (no color requirement). -> That does not support creativity, that hinders it. It's like Goyf but worse.
3. It counters itself. So nearly every game will be: "MM" - "I MM your MM." - "But I MM your MM." And that's over and over again every fucking game.
4. Dumb luck gives the advantage. If you don't have it in your opening hand and your opponent has one, you're in trouble.

1. This card is significantly worse if run in non-blue. No hard cast and no pitch to Force when it is dead.
2. It doesn't belong in every deck. If people want to dilute all of their decks with this, go right ahead.
3. So it answers itself. How is this a bad thing? MM wars just give aggressive decks an advantage. Sounds good to me.
4. Trading one for one and going down 1 mana in tempo is hardly the end of the world.

[Nonex]

A free counterspell without color requirement: WotC must be insane!

I have a strong feeling that MM might be bad for the gameplay:
1. WotC broke their own rules (the color pie) by making this card. That's the literal definition of a broken card.
2. It is strong and you can play it in every deck (no color requirement). -> That does not support creativity, that hinders it. It's like Goyf but worse.
3. It counters itself. So nearly every game will be: "MM" - "I MM your MM." - "But I MM your MM." And that's over and over again every fucking game.
4. Dumb luck gives the advantage. If you don't have it in your opening hand and your opponent has one, you're in trouble.

1. Planar Chaos edition and some Zendikar traps would like to have a word with you. And I think the definition of a broken card involves warping the format until it rotates around it or decks involving it (like Flash). Correct me if I'm wrong.
2. Goyf is a threat and Misstep is an answer, I don't think you can apply the same line of reasoning to both. I may want some Goyfs to increase my threat density or as alternate win conditions if my deck can support them, but if my most relevant cards and the cards that hurt me the most can't be countered by Misstep, I don't see why I would want them.
3. Most counters can counter themselves. It's not like Force of Will wars are that uncommon.
4. This has been true since the very beginning of the game. See Force of Will again.

[Koby]

I poke in to check out what cool new cards they've printed and I find out that Zoo rapes the entire current metagame.

Prove it. I haven't seen a Zoo deck in Top 8 for nearly 2 months, and accounting for 5.2% of the metagame. You're smoking some dank herb, son.

[Forbiddian]

Prove it. I haven't seen a Zoo deck in Top 8 for nearly 2 months, and accounting for 5.2% of the metagame. You're smoking some dank herb, son.

1) Zoo is an extremely tempo-oriented deck that can immediately push for a win against a deck falls behind on tempo and/or can't come up with answers in time. Mental Misstep fits all of those criteria perfectly, and actually profits on mana every play. 2) Zoo is an aggro deck and loves trade-down situations that leave the board intact. Mental misstep wars are going to favor the aggro player in general. 3) Zoo's worst matchup by far (and the only matchup keeping it in check) is combo. Assuming that you have a mental misstep, the range of hands that can get a turn 1-3 kill off against you is very narrow, so you'll usually get a chance to race, which is way more than could be said earlier.

Aggressive decks make massive profit from this, but the deck improved the most (other than e.g. chalice control decks who can dodge the CC1 problem) is Zoo since it was already a reasonable pick. It's basically the premier non-blue deck. And now I'm not even convinced that combo can even hold its own against Zoo, let alone snipe it out of the metagame (and certainly combo is weakened by Mental Misstep being played in non-Zoo matchups, so there will be less combo).

[ivanpei]

Actually after sleeping on it (for a few nights), I'm not too upset with the printing of this card. Though I will be forever annoyed by how common misstepping a mistep is going to be (I predict, we'll see this in at least 25% of all games we play), I think it's better for budget decks in general. I have a rule of thumb that to beat combo, you need 12-16 cards that interact to safely beat them.

Take a black based deck for example:

Preboard-
4 Thoughtseize,
4 Hymm
4 Wasteland
Postboard-
in 2-4 Duress/Inquisition etc

Blue Based:

Preboard-
4 Force
3-5 Daze/Spell Pierce/Counterspell/Spell Snare/Vendillon Clique or a combination
4 Counterbalance/Wasteland (Usually blue decks play 1 or the other)

Postboard:
2-4 Spell Pierce/Clique/Meddlingmage (Flexible hate)

The gold standard IMO for beating combo is 12 MD disruption and + 3/4 after board. Lets see what non blue/black decks can run:

Preboard:
4 Wasteland
...

Postboard:
4-6 Mindbreaktrap/Cannonist/Teeq/Chalice

4-10 ways to interact is nowhere near enough and it's total crap. But now with both Surgical Extraction and Mental Misstep, any deck, regardless of colour can interact with combo. Wizards was smart enough not to print something that totally wrecks combo, but just something that just lets people interact with combo, nerfing combo slightly but giving all Force/Thoughtseize-less decks a chance:

Preboard:
4 Mental Misstep
Maybe 4 Wastes

Postboard:
3-4 Surgical Extraction (Replaces tormod's crypt here)
3-4 Mindbreak Trap/Cannonist

This gives you up to 16 ways to interact postboard which is pretty good. Anyone who's ever played extirpate against combo knows how useful that card is. Extirpate on high tide/candel/turnabout or LED/Ritual/Infernal or Painter/Stone is pretty good. Granted the above are not all combo hosers, at least non blue/black decks have a chance at beating combo WITHOUT messing with their win percentages against other decks. Traditionally sideboards are broken into:
3 Gravehate
3 Broad Combo Hate
3 Anti Aggro
3 Anti Control
3 Anti Artifact/Enchantment

This is just an over generalisation, but any budget deck can have 4 missteps main, 3 Surgical Extraction in the board and 3 chalice/Trap as the broad combo hate to have a chance against combo. They still have slots to dedicate to other MUs and are not at a severe disadvantage. This IMO is what Wizard is trying to achieve. They are trying to help budget decks be interactive against combo. Will it pan out and allow tribal elves/affinity be competitive against combo, or will we be sick of seeing missteping missteps? I don't know, but it's going to be interesting.

[Koby]

1) Zoo is an extremely tempo-oriented deck that can immediately push for a win against a deck falls behind on tempo and/or can't come up with answers in time. Mental Misstep fits all of those criteria perfectly, and actually profits on mana every play. 2) Zoo is an aggro deck and loves trade-down situations that leave the board intact. Mental misstep wars are going to favor the aggro player in general. 3) Zoo's worst matchup by far (and the only matchup keeping it in check) is combo. Assuming that you have a mental misstep, the range of hands that can get a turn 1-3 kill off against you is very narrow, so you'll usually get a chance to race, which is way more than could be said earlier.

Aggressive decks make massive profit from this, but the deck improved the most (other than e.g. chalice control decks who can dodge the CC1 problem) is Zoo since it was already a reasonable pick. It's basically the premier non-blue deck. And now I'm not even convinced that combo can even hold its own against Zoo, let alone snipe it out of the metagame (and certainly combo is weakened by Mental Misstep being played in non-Zoo matchups, so there will be less combo).

Perhaps I misspoke. I merely asked to see how Zoo has been performing lately; of which it's been missing. Zoo has been pushed out of the metagame by Natural Order and Show and Tell decks in the last few months. These decks have a better combo matchup (usually paired with Force of Will and Spell Pierce), and can outclass Zoo with threats (but not speed). I posit that Zoo, while it stands to gain much from a card such as Mental Misstep, does not actually make it playable in the current metagame.

Bant however, has nearly the same tools, and stands to gain more.

[troopatroop]

I feel that this was printed by WotC in an effort to tame Legacy, and stop all the degeneracy. Turn 1 Stifle is now stoppable outside of blue. Aggro decks can now slow down combo and punish mulligans. If Blue also has insentive to play it, and everyone can afford it, it's a bitch for combo.

[Aggro_zombies]

Perhaps I misspoke. I merely asked to see how Zoo has been performing lately; of which it's been missing. Zoo has been pushed out of the metagame by Natural Order and Show and Tell decks in the last few months.
This is actually important. From the standpoint of Zoo, these are "combo" in the sense that they use two or more cards which almost completely invalidate Zoo's ability to win in combat by providing a superior clock or, as in the case of Emrakul, destroying the board. It's no different than storm combo for Zoo, except you're in a little bit of a better initial position because the shells these cards go in are more interactive. However, they're also more resistant to Misstep because the business cards cost four (NO) and three (SnT) and both circumvent common storm hate (with SnT also getting around Teeg).

In the actual storm matchup, if you have one Mental Misstep in hand (a common scenario, given you can only run four), you lose to any of the following resolving: Chant, Silence, Duress, Thoughtseize. You also lose to countering any of them. If you use Misstep on a Brainstorm, you give your opponent a permanent +1 storm, which makes it easier to go off as there are now more lines of play: the opponent only needs eight spells and a Tendrils as opposed to nine and Tendrils. Furthermore, if you fetch twice in a game, your opponent gets +2 storm, which makes it easier to kill you with IGG - thereby rendering life loss mostly irrelevant, whereas it wouldn't be in the case of needing Ad Noz to kill you. Even combined with, say, four other hate slots in the board (in addition to 4 Misstep), it's almost certainly not positive against medium or better storm hands, especially because you're diluting your threats once you've swapped your Paths for Missteps.

What Misstep does do, however, is make Counterbalance and tempo stronger, both of which have broadly positive storm matchups. Those two can act as a suppressing force on combo, letting Zoo back into the metagame if it dedicates sideboard slots specifically to beating blue. I'm not sure those slots involve Missteps, though.

[voltron00x]

Well said,sir.

[ivanpei]

Aggro decks can now slow down combo and punish mulligans. If Blue also has insentive to play it, and everyone can afford it, it's a bitch for combo.

Weak combo hands usually still beat Aggro if undisrupted. But if they stumble, and have a misstep thrown into their developement, Aggro can have a good chance of reach that critical Turn 4 to kill them. This itself is good enough for Aggro decks to play it. The fact that it protects your creatures and screws vial is just icing.

That's the thing about misstep, though it's not as good vs Show and Tell/NO, it can still snipe a Noble/GSZ/Brainstorm. It's extremely relevant at slowing opponent's down at no tempo cost to the aggro player. Misstep + wastelands can get there, even in G1. As for your point that misstep in Blue suppressing combo, you are absolutely right. Misstep + Force + Counterbalance will definitely give combo a good kicking, allowing aggro back into the format.

[klaus]

What Misstep does do, however, is make Counterbalance and tempo stronger

MM counters Top.

[Aggro_zombies]

MM counters Top.
...so? It also counters Wild Nacatl, Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx, Kird Ape, Grim Lavamancer, Noble Hierarch, Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, and Chain Lightning, and yet people are somehow arguing that Zoo is coming out of Misstep's printing as a winner.

Counterbalance wins because Misstep gives it a way to interact early that doesn't involve bouncing lands. It especially helps boost control builds of Counterbalance because, in addition to allowing early interaction, it's an ideal answer to Aether Vial.

[dahcmai]

I'll tell you one thing. It sure improves the crap out of all my stupid decks that are "almost" amazing. Most of them have a problem because they didn't have the one casting cost spells and lacked a little speed. Testing with this card proxied up is just showing it more and more. Fear the return of Sorrow's Path. lol

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

...so? It also counters Wild Nacatl, Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx, Kird Ape, Grim Lavamancer, Noble Hierarch, Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, and Chain Lightning, and yet people are somehow arguing that Zoo is coming out of Misstep's printing as a winner.

Counterbalance wins because Misstep gives it a way to interact early that doesn't involve bouncing lands. It especially helps boost control builds of Counterbalance because, in addition to allowing early interaction, it's an ideal answer to Aether Vial.

Zoo only cares about the early game, really. Counterbalance cares about a lot of different cards that cost a lot more than 1 It's great that you countered a turn 1 Aether Vial, but if you can't do shit else but sit back and get beat by Fish and Gobbos and Knights of the Reliquary, what have you gained?

[Aggro_zombies]

Zoo only cares about the early game, really. Counterbalance cares about a lot of different cards that cost a lot more than 1 It's great that you countered a turn 1 Aether Vial, but if you can't do shit else but sit back and get beat by Fish and Gobbos and Knights of the Reliquary, what have you gained?
This is an essential problem to Counterbalance, and the reason why it's more of a combo than a deck. Things like Thopterbalance have positive aggro matchups, generally speaking, but as I understand it Merfolk can be an issue if it sticks Vial and has permission at key times.

Really, when making a control deck, you can build it to beat whatever you want, within certain limitations. The problem with the creature control package to date was that it didn't help enough against Vial because Vial could keep shitting out guys through your Counterbalance while also saving mana for the other guy. Misstep alleviates some of that problem, though not all of it.

Also, Counterbalance decks generally also only care about the early game. Their end game involves doing whatever they feel like because they have all the time in the world (figuratively speaking) to kill you once they lock you.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That seems unrealistic. Against most modern decks, Counterbalance is a hindrance, not a lock, and that's due to a lot more than just Aether Vial. Most decks have 3 or 4cc threats that are quite credible. Not even including cards like Green Sun's Zenith, Tombstalker, or Engineered Explosives which don't give a fuck about CB at all.

[Aggro_zombies]

That seems unrealistic. Against most modern decks, Counterbalance is a hindrance, not a lock, and that's due to a lot more than just Aether Vial. Most decks have 3 or 4cc threats that are quite credible. Not even including cards like Green Sun's Zenith, Tombstalker, or Engineered Explosives which don't give a fuck about CB at all.
Yeah, but those are what your other counters are for.

Look, you don't sit down and say, "I'm going to make a deck that beats Counterbalance," and then have nothing but 3+ mana cards in it; Stax and MUD are pretty terrible decks for a reason. Put another way: a lot of the reason people are ejaculating rainbows over Mental Misstep is because every deck contains at least a couple of targets for it. Those same cards are also fair game for Counterbalance. Because the format is still built on speed and tempo, Counterbalance decks that can compete in the early game can rapidly reduce the number of "outs" to the lock in the opponent's deck to the number of 3+cc cards he runs; most decks run fewer of those than Counterbalance runs other counters. Plus, if those cards are permanents, Counterbalance has removal for them. I mean, yeah, we can get really nit-picky and play the, "But what if he doesn't have the counter?" game, but that game also works for Mental Misstep and that hasn't deterred anybody in favor of the card.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What other counters? If you're running Counterbalance and Mental Misstep, half your counter at least already don't hit those spells. You can't rely on Force to save you from everything, what are you down to, Counterspell?

I mean it seems like any deck that runs Misstep has a disincentive to run Counter-Top, since you want to be able to handle a diversity of threats, not primarily Nacatls.

[bracer028]

What other counters? If you're running Counterbalance and Mental Misstep, half your counter at least already don't hit those spells. You can't rely on Force to save you from everything, what are you down to, Counterspell?

I mean it seems like any deck that runs Misstep has a disincentive to run Counter-Top, since you want to be able to handle a diversity of threats, not primarily Nacatls.

i don't really understand what the second paragraph means.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Counterbalance is there to clear up all their cheap spells. Mental Misstep has the same function. They tackle it from different angles, but both are primarily there to attack cheap spells.

The problem is that lots of decks have lots of 2, 3, even 4 mana threats that have to be dealt with. If you're trying to play control you have to deal with those cards. Are you going to run Misstep just to insure that Vial doesn't stop your Counterbalance from working? That seems incredibly weak if the cards you're most worried about cost 3 or 4, or 5 or 8.

[Aggro_zombies]

Counterbalance is there to clear up all their cheap spells. Mental Misstep has the same function. They tackle it from different angles, but both are primarily there to attack cheap spells.

The problem is that lots of decks have lots of 2, 3, even 4 mana threats that have to be dealt with. If you're trying to play control you have to deal with those cards. Are you going to run Misstep just to insure that Vial doesn't stop your Counterbalance from working? That seems incredibly weak if the cards you're most worried about cost 3 or 4, or 5 or 8.
Counterbalance decks have usually had the most problems with things that cost more than you can Counterbalance, or which happen before you can stick Counterbalance. Guess which of these Mental Misstep takes care of in a way Daze doesn't?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

"Things that happen before..." in this case means primarily Aether Vial. Counterbalance also happens to be terrible against the decks that actually run Aether Vial, Goblins and Merfolk. So in order to solve Counterbalance's problem with Vial, you're now running a card that only hits 4 relevant spells in Merfolk and 8 in Goblins (and none of their relevant cards in the mid-to-late game), and none of the cards in Junk, Bant, Team America, Affinity, ANT, High Tide, etc., etc.. that actually stop you from winning against those decks.


Why is this good?

Mental Misstep is a very good card, but not if you're thinking, "Oh, I need an answer to Aether Vial and that is the only problem of mine that Mental Misstep actually solves.

If that's your only problem in life, honestly, just run Repeal.

[Koby]

i don't really understand what the second paragraph means.

He means to say that CBtop already has a good handle on 1cc spells already. It's a catch 22 he's describing, where the best way to answer 1 drops is to run MM, but the deck already has an over-abundance of ways to deal with 1 drops late game.

There are better ways to deal with AEther Vial in CBtop shells; such as Pithing Needle and EE. This is hardly news.

EDIT: It would be nice to see the format slow down where the speed and efficiency of Legacy from yester-year morphed into more mid-range. I can't quite predict the new metagame without actual data; but I suspect some archetypes will fare better off than others. Pretty much Reanimator can be written off for the next few weeks/months? while everyone and their pet dog Rover is going to be testing out MM. Several in the DDFT/ANT/TES thread are discussing ways to combat their newly perceived threat to the deck. Their conclusion: build a more resilient combo deck that doesn't depend on a single spell, e.g. Belcher.

As was mentioned before in this thread, MM does nothing to stop Burn, since paying 2 life to save 1 life isn't the best of uses for your life total.

[Lejay]

As was mentioned before in this thread, MM does nothing to stop Burn, since paying 2 life to save 1 life isn't the best of uses for your life total.
Now you can reread mental misstep and particularly the part about phyrexian mana.

[ivanpei]

Well this is nightmare's thoughts on Mental Misstep. I think it's a good summary and I pretty much agree with the points:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/recurring-nightmares-doogie-howser-m-d/

The juicy excerpts:

"I’m intentionally limiting my wording here, and trying not to be sensationalist. In reality, I think most Legacy decks just became 56 cards."

"This card is not Spell Snare. This card isn’t even Mindbreak Trap. This card is Force of Will, and it doesn’t force you to run 18 blue cards to use it. This unassuming uncommon has the potential, and likelihood, to significantly alter the way that Grand Prix Providence will play out."

Pretty strong opinion here.

[menace13]

The card is teh titz. Free counter to most turn 1 plays is hawt.

[mossivo1986]

you're misevaluating the format. Blue isn't the best color because it crushes everything, it's the best color because the tools it offers you also work against combo. In a straight heads-up, blue-based aggro decks based mostly around beats and 1-for-1 cards have no particular advantage over those that don't run blue, with some variance for specific decklists. Their statistical advantage is in breaking combo, which non-blue decks tend to be overwhelmingly disfavored against. Even discard isn't particularly good against high tide these days, since they only really need two cards, high tide and time spiral, to have a 95% shot at comboing off.

If combo takes a hit it reduces the incentive to play brainstorm. There are just better cards to play in a format where the average swing turn is 4.5 and critters on the ground are the main wincons.

Of course, those decks still require duals, even if they're the cheaper ones, which gets back to your other point which seems to be a non-sequitur. Dual-based decks with expensive legacy staples like force, wasteland, mazes, mox diamonds, aether vials, etc., etc.. Haven't gotten any less common recently. Affinity, elves, and ichorid have all gotten a bit of tournament showing lately, but in addition to being budget decks they also share in common that they're laughably fragile glass cannons, completely hosed by some very commonly played main or side cards. Elves can't deal with lavamancer or jitte effectively, in addition to having problems with any deck that packs more than six or so removal spells, affinity gets hosed by maindeck deeds or sideboard null roads, the latter of which lets anyone completely shut down their deck for two mana, and there's a dozen or so ways for any deck to beat ichorid for one mana or less, sometimes even drawing a card in the process.

Legacy is expensive and that's a separate problem, but i don't see how mental misstep adds to this, and it may even help a bit. As the format slows mana bases become more important, and the incentives to go three colors should diminish.




That's just silly. Everyone knows the correct build is 14 island, 44 mental misstep, 2 brain freeze.

qft.

[troopatroop]

I think Nightmare is spot on, and he only made conservative estimations. 56 card Legacy, imo as well.

[Angelfire]

I think Nightmare is spot on, and he only made conservative estimations. 56 card Legacy, imo as well.

There are a number of decks that won't be running this and shouldn't be. Small list: Most Combo, Chalice Aggro, Burn, Dredge and more.

[Mr. Safety]

I think fringe decks like Faeries will jump on this spell for sure...it basically allows them to play Daze #5-8, controlling the front end of the game in an incredibly strong way while filling their yard even faster for quick Tombstalker beats.

I for one will be testing out Mental Misstep in my faeries deck.

[Doomsday]

This makes most of Legacy into 56 card decks??? I'm pretty sure that this topic has just surpassed Lorescale Coatl level.

[Pippin]

This makes most of Legacy into 56 card decks??? I'm pretty sure that this topic has just surpassed Lorescale Coatl level.

Yup, I completely agree.
Even though I was strong proponent of how strong this card is, I simply cannot see this going into maindeck of most non-blue decks. Even in blue decks, I wouldn't constrain decks with 4 of Missteps as a must in maindeck...

[catmint]

There is a SCG article from Drew Levin about mental misstep:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21677_Building_A_Legacy_Mental_Misstep.html

Interesting analysis about using the card for defensive / offensive strategy and metagame predictions.

[Forbiddian]

[Discussing how Mental Misstep does not help the combo matchup against Zoo]In the actual storm matchup, if you have one Mental Misstep in hand (a common scenario, given you can only run four), you lose to any of the following resolving: Chant, Silence, Duress, Thoughtseize.

It's like if somebody said Force of Will does nothing because Chant/Silence/Duress/Thoughtseize is game. Combo can always trump any answer by getting Chant/Thoughtseize off, and a Zoo deck (naturally an extremely fast clock) suddenly forcing a combo player to grab answers before trying to go off? Win.

It poses a bigger problem to Spiral Tide variants than Ad Nauseam, since Ad Nauseam can much more easily play through a MM and still win turn 3, but if people like you think that you need to use Orim's Chant to protect your combo against Zoo, then all the power to the Zoo players.




What Misstep does do, however, is make Counterbalance and tempo stronger, both of which have broadly positive storm matchups. Those two can act as a suppressing force on combo, letting Zoo back into the metagame if it dedicates sideboard slots specifically to beating blue. I'm not sure those slots involve Missteps, though.

Interesting theory. I don't see MM as being a huge improvement over Daze, Spell Pierce, or Spell Snare at doing anything for these decks. It's almost certainly going into those decks, but one drop cards were answerable before to Counterbalance decks anyway.

Because most decks are going to be running this (or at least a tumultuous metagame shift will favor different lines of play), the decks that benefit the most are the decks that could benefit from trading down, benefit from being able to stop key spells they couldn't stop before, and (in a pinch) benefit from the life loss.

[kilukru]

A curious thing about MM is that one of the archetype it will affect the less is actully combo. Control deck that will play MM will either remove daze, spell pierce of spell snare for it, so the disruption density remain the same and that disruption density is the main thing you worry about when playing combo.

For non-blue deck non black deck, if the play 4 MM, fine, thats really thin protection against combo, if they run nothing else against it (Teg, etc...) it wont matter

For black deck, chance are that black deck that will run MM will cut some kind of hand disruption for it, so once again, the disruption density remain the same. If they do run the fulll suit of hand disruption and MM, then the rest of the deck will be real thin, so a slow clock, unless they get that Tombstalker real fast!

This is from a TES player

[Aggro_zombies]

It's like if somebody said Force of Will does nothing because Chant/Silence/Duress/Thoughtseize is game. Combo can always trump any answer by getting Chant/Thoughtseize off, and a Zoo deck (naturally an extremely fast clock) suddenly forcing a combo player to grab answers before trying to go off? Win.
This analogy doesn't work because the kind of decks that have Force of Will almost always have other counters as well. Mental Misstep would be Zoo's only counter, so you would need to have more than one in hand to deal with a Tendrils chain that starts with discard or Chanting. That's fairly unlikely depending on how many turns have elapsed and whether you run Sylvan Library; however, drawing that many Mental Missteps means you're drawing less threats, which slows your clock down. In other decks, there are more possible hands where you have more than one counter simply because there are more counters in your deck.

There's no real way to use Misstep effectively in Zoo because it doesn't have the supporting architecture to use it to its fullest. A random counter that doesn't even hit some of the most important spells in most storm decks is not really frightening, especially when Zoo's other combo hate is not really that great. I mean, maybe you can build a critical mass of combo hate, but I'm skeptical that devoting that much sideboard space to a relatively rare matchup is the best plan, and there are a lot of decks that (a) beat Zoo in a way Zoo isn't geared to interacting with, and (b) don't really fold to the sort of combo hate Zoo would be running (Teeg, Canonist, Mindbreak Trap, Null Rod). If anything, Zoo is probably just going to do what it's always done, which is play the metagame/pairings lottery and hope that SnT decks don't see a sudden resurgence.

[GGoober]

I STILL don't understand why would Zoo ever need MM. If it's purely to beat combo, there are much better spells at doing that that fits into Zoo's core. I would rather play Chant, hate-bears, Null Rods before MM because these are at least still flexible for other matchups.

Actually, you could just play a faster Zoo list with 3 fireblast Maindeck and I think you'll tackle the combo problem much better than playing 4MM. MM has zero synergy with Zoo in trying to disrupt combo. You get a one-time use against a Duress/Chant, and proceed to lose. Depending what you cut, if you cut burn for MM, you may have actually won games with the burn spells, if you cut creatures for MM, don't bitch when you can't play a 1-drop and start applying pressure while you wait a turn and play your Goyf and let your opponents take another draw (+1 card) to attempt to take out your MM.

Also, all these talk of MM in Zoo, sure maybe I believe you, but what do you cut? What do you cut that actually improves your majority of matchups with MM? I'm having a little trouble visualizing this. You can't cut burn, Nacatl, creatures, knights, goyfs, libraries..

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Well this is nightmare's thoughts on Mental Misstep. I think it's a good summary and I pretty much agree with the points:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/recurring-nightmares-doogie-howser-m-d/

The juicy excerpts:

"I’m intentionally limiting my wording here, and trying not to be sensationalist. In reality, I think most Legacy decks just became 56 cards."

"This card is not Spell Snare. This card isn’t even Mindbreak Trap. This card is Force of Will, and it doesn’t force you to run 18 blue cards to use it. This unassuming uncommon has the potential, and likelihood, to significantly alter the way that Grand Prix Providence will play out."

Pretty strong opinion here.
A more accurate statement would read, "I’m intentionally limiting my wording here, and trying not to be sensationalist. In reality, I think most Legacy decks I would play just became 56 cards."

Aggro doesn't want this, they want another threat. Combo doesn't want this, they want another Duress, Chant, Ritual or Brainstorm. The decks that will be jamming Mental Misstep 6 months after NPH once the hype is gone will be the 14th place decks that Shaheen Soorani and Nightmare cum their pants over. Enjoy your $100 guys, at least it paid your entry fee.

[Aggro_zombies]

I STILL don't understand why would Zoo ever need MM. If it's purely to beat combo, there are much better spells at doing that that fits into Zoo's core. I would rather play Chant, hate-bears, Null Rods before MM because these are at least still flexible for other matchups.

Actually, you could just play a faster Zoo list with 3 fireblast Maindeck and I think you'll tackle the combo problem much better than playing 4MM. MM has zero synergy with Zoo in trying to disrupt combo. You get a one-time use against a Duress/Chant, and proceed to lose. Depending what you cut, if you cut burn for MM, you may have actually won games with the burn spells, if you cut creatures for MM, don't bitch when you can't play a 1-drop and start applying pressure while you wait a turn and play your Goyf and let your opponents take another draw (+1 card) to attempt to take out your MM.

Also, all these talk of MM in Zoo, sure maybe I believe you, but what do you cut? What do you cut that actually improves your majority of matchups with MM? I'm having a little trouble visualizing this. You can't cut burn, Nacatl, creatures, knights, goyfs, libraries..
I'm, um, arguing that Mental Misstep doesn't go in Zoo. There are people in this thread who are implying - or outright stating - that it goes in every deck.

[Scordata]

Does anyone else realize that this card helps tempo decks more than it hurts them? Missetpping a stifle is actually still advantageous for tempo decks. You just got shocked and are down a card. Sweet. I envision dark confidant becoming the next survival when mm is released into the wild.

Also, whether or not aggro decks run mm, combo will still steamroll them. At least doomsday will. Maybe it buys them a turn, but ouside of lackey into sgc, I can't see losing as a actual line of play. Its like, ok, you got my dark ritual, I guess I'll just win next turn.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This analogy doesn't work because the kind of decks that have Force of Will almost always have other counters as well. Mental Misstep would be Zoo's only counter, so you would need to have more than one in hand to deal with a Tendrils chain that starts with discard or Chanting. That's fairly unlikely depending on how many turns have elapsed and whether you run Sylvan Library; however, drawing that many Mental Missteps means you're drawing less threats, which slows your clock down. In other decks, there are more possible hands where you have more than one counter simply because there are more counters in your deck.

There's no real way to use Misstep effectively in Zoo because it doesn't have the supporting architecture to use it to its fullest. A random counter that doesn't even hit some of the most important spells in most storm decks is not really frightening, especially when Zoo's other combo hate is not really that great. I mean, maybe you can build a critical mass of combo hate, but I'm skeptical that devoting that much sideboard space to a relatively rare matchup is the best plan, and there are a lot of decks that (a) beat Zoo in a way Zoo isn't geared to interacting with, and (b) don't really fold to the sort of combo hate Zoo would be running (Teeg, Canonist, Mindbreak Trap, Null Rod). If anything, Zoo is probably just going to do what it's always done, which is play the metagame/pairings lottery and hope that SnT decks don't see a sudden resurgence.


Storm has a much smaller chance of beating a fast Zoo deck if they have to cast discard or Chants first. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the deck can't use it effectively. It gives Zoo even larger early game dominance which is exactly what it wants.


I STILL don't understand why would Zoo ever need MM. If it's purely to beat combo, there are much better spells at doing that that fits into Zoo's core. I would rather play Chant, hate-bears, Null Rods before MM because these are at least still flexible for other matchups.

Hi! Welcome to Legacy. This format has one drops. When you say that countering one drops is less flexible than Null Rod, you forfeit the argument.


Actually, you could just play a faster Zoo list with 3 fireblast Maindeck and I think you'll tackle the combo problem much better than playing 4MM. MM has zero synergy with Zoo in trying to disrupt combo. You get a one-time use against a Duress/Chant, and proceed to lose. Depending what you cut, if you cut burn for MM, you may have actually won games with the burn spells, if you cut creatures for MM, don't bitch when you can't play a 1-drop and start applying pressure while you wait a turn and play your Goyf and let your opponents take another draw (+1 card) to attempt to take out your MM.

Storm is slower going off if they're looking for disruption + the kill in the face of a fast clock.


Also, all these talk of MM in Zoo, sure maybe I believe you, but what do you cut? What do you cut that actually improves your majority of matchups with MM? I'm having a little trouble visualizing this. You can't cut burn, Nacatl, creatures, knights, goyfs, libraries..

Of course you can cut Library. 20 creatures, 21 land, 11 burn, 4 Misstep, 4 Path to Exile sounds about right. The numbers would be fudged from meta to meta.


Does anyone else realize that this card helps tempo decks more than it hurts them? Missetpping a stifle is actually still advantageous for tempo decks. You just got shocked and are down a card. Sweet. I envision dark confidant becoming the next survival when mm is released into the wild.

They're not down a card; Misstep is card parity.


Also, whether or not aggro decks run mm, combo will still steamroll them. At least doomsday will. Maybe it buys them a turn, but ouside of lackey into sgc, I can't see losing as a actual line of play. Its like, ok, you got my dark ritual, I guess I'll just win next turn.

What Zoo lists are you guys testing against that don't run Knight + Karakas?


A more accurate statement would read, "I’m intentionally limiting my wording here, and trying not to be sensationalist. In reality, I think most Legacy decks I would play just became 56 cards."

Aggro doesn't want this, they want another threat.

wut.

No aggro deck runs nothing but threats. Every single viable aggro deck mixes up disruption, reach and threats in different numbers. This gives Zoo, which has strong threats and reach but little disruption, a solution to their weak point.


Combo doesn't want this, they want another Duress, Chant, Ritual or Brainstorm. The decks that will be jamming Mental Misstep 6 months after NPH once the hype is gone will be the 14th place decks that Shaheen Soorani and Nightmare cum their pants over. Enjoy your $100 guys, at least it paid your entry fee.

I agree that it's not very good in most combo; maybe Reanimator. I'm not sure where $100 comes from though, this is an uncommon.

[Aggro_zombies]

Hi! Welcome to Legacy. This format has one drops. When you say that countering one drops is less flexible than Null Rod, you forfeit the argument.
And this is why we should run Mental Misstep as a four-of in every Legacy deck ever.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

And this is why we should run Mental Misstep as a four-of in every Legacy deck ever.

No. But saying that Mental Misstep is a less versatile maindeck card than Null Rod is a demonstrably false statement. Not a lot of decks maindeck Null Rod. Not every deck should play Mental Misstep either.

[Aggro_zombies]

No. But saying that Mental Misstep is a less versatile maindeck card than Null Rod is a demonstrably false statement. Not a lot of decks maindeck Null Rod. Not every deck should play Mental Misstep either.
You should probably lay down some rules about which decks should consider Mental Misstep anywhere in their 75s, then. I, for one, do not think this card does anything for aggro, but would dearly like to know why you think it helps that strategy to run reactive cards that do not directly translate into superior board position.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

No aggro deck runs nothing but threats. Every single viable aggro deck mixes up disruption, reach and threats in different numbers. This gives Zoo, which has strong threats and reach but little disruption, a solution to their weak point.
No aggro deck runs nothing but threats, but all aggro decks aggressively limit the situational answers they board against decks that, taken together, would overwhelm what little boarding they could do anyway. Because really, if those decks only had one weak point, they'd be boarding much more heavily against it. Misstep isn't a "solution", the card that most closely resembles one but still isn't would be Mindbreak Trap. This is no Mindbreak Trap.

I agree that it's not very good in most combo; maybe Reanimator. I'm not sure where $100 comes from though, this is an uncommon.
$100 comes from your 14th place finish at an SCG5k with a control deck packing quad Mental Misstep while viable archetypes are playing for $4200 worth of prizes in the top 8. Misstep might be a nice $3 uncommon once it's OOP for a few years like Spell Snare, maybe.

[GGoober]

I'm, um, arguing that Mental Misstep doesn't go in Zoo. There are people in this thread who are implying - or outright stating - that it goes in every deck.

I know, and I'm in support of your arguments, and against those that feel that MM is going to make Zoo better than before. MM is and isn't a blue card, but the truth is, it's benefiting blue decks more than non-blue decks, since blue decks can play MM and support the entire strategy with additional cards, whereas MM in non-blue decks e.g. Zoo are used only for narrow purposes where the original maindeck is based primarily on redundancy. This doesn't cut it for those decks. On the other hand, there are very narrow cases where I feel MM benefits a non-blue deck e.g. Eva Green, since MM fits into the whole idea on disruption/Tempo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How do you figure that it doesn't translate into a superior board position?

First of all, aggro decks don't want to see past turn 4-5 anyway, so the majority of cards you'll see in the course of a winning game will usually be in your opening grip, reducing your odds of drawing Misstep at an inopportune time. It also neuters cards that help churn out big blockers that slow your game plan, Aether Vial and Noble Hierarch, and protects your point man from getting StP'd and setting back your game plan. It stops Top or E. Tutor, which can easily stop a control player from finding the answers they need to survive your rush. The fact that it gives you game against combo just seals the deal.


I know, and I'm in support of your arguments, and against those that feel that MM is going to make Zoo better than before. MM is and isn't a blue card, but the truth is, it's benefiting blue decks more than non-blue decks, since blue decks can play MM and support the entire strategy with additional cards, whereas MM in non-blue decks e.g. Zoo are used only for narrow purposes where the original maindeck is based primarily on redundancy. This doesn't cut it for those decks. On the other hand, there are very narrow cases where I feel MM benefits a non-blue deck e.g. Eva Green, since MM fits into the whole idea on disruption/Tempo.

I keep hearing people make this "redundancy" argument, and I have no idea what they mean by it. You don't need eight copies of a card or its near-twin in your deck for that effect for it to be good; in fact often you don't want that many. Decks have had the option of running StP + Path to Exile for years now, but only a small handful choose to do so.

This simply seems like a memetic idea that people repeat for lack of having an actual argument. The fact that Zoo isn't running Daze doesn't mean it has any reason not to run Misstep.




No aggro deck runs nothing but threats, but all aggro decks aggressively limit the situational answers they board against decks that, taken together, would overwhelm what little boarding they could do anyway. Because really, if those decks only had one weak point, they'd be boarding much more heavily against it. Misstep isn't a "solution", the card that most closely resembles one but still isn't would be Mindbreak Trap. This is no Mindbreak Trap.

Mindbreak Trap is an awful, awful maindeck card. If combo remains a presence, 4 Misstep main + 4 Mindbreak Trap in the board might be correct in Zoo; it'd certainly give them much better game.


$100 comes from your 14th place finish at an SCG5k with a control deck packing quad Mental Misstep while viable archetypes are playing for $4200 worth of prizes in the top 8. Misstep might be a nice $3 uncommon once it's OOP for a few years like Spell Snare, maybe.

Uhhhhhhhh.

I mean I don't think Misstep is very good in control, but your analysis seems divorced from reality, where 1cc spells are hugely important in this format.

[edgarps22]

Again I am going to side with IBA here, Zoo is one of the main non blue decks that REALLY wants this card. It helps in control, aggro mirrors, as well as having uses in the combo matchup. I will not say though that it belongs in the main 60, I believe it belongs in the sideboard 15. Gaddock Teeg belongs in the main 60 for matchups like combo, but MM can be extremely disruptive to a combo player, and is easily boarded in by removing things like Path, StP, Bolt, Lightning Helix if you run it, things like that, and preferably in that order. Zoo can already function as an aggro control deck, by controlling the board position. Mental Misstep simply allows Zoo to board in some actual disruption as well by removing its board control pieces in a matchup like combo without losing anything in the way of threats. Hell one solution I also offered was running 4 Meddling Mage. Combo then has win around 5 hatebears, 4 disruptive spells, and a hell of a clock. This doesn't make the matchup favorable, but it certainly brings it to winnable. The fact that it also helps in the thopter countertop matchup, burn, dredge, etc etc etc is gravy. I will say that this does NOT make every deck in legacy a 56 card deck, it really doesn't, there are a lot of decks, including Zoo, that do not want/need Mental Misstep main, but you bet your ass it will be in my sideboard. There are some matches where it simply will not do that much, like Goblins, Fish, Suicide Black, Eva Green, that new Team Italia decklist etc etc. This will be a good card, I get it, but it will not go in every deck, but it will find its way into non blue decks as well. Zoo and Eva green are the best fits I believe outside of blue based tempo decks.

[Koby]

First of all, aggro decks don't want to see past turn 4-5 anyway, so the majority of cards you'll see in the course of a winning game will usually be in your opening grip, reducing your odds of drawing Misstep at an inopportune time.

Equals


I keep hearing people make this "redundancy" argument, and I have no idea what they mean by it. You don't need eight copies of a card or its near-twin in your deck for that effect for it to be good; in fact often you don't want that many. Decks have had the option of running StP + Path to Exile for years now, but only a small handful choose to do so.


If running 4 of a card means drawing it 39% in an opening hand, then running 8 of the same effect will definitely increase the chances. This is redundancy, as you just described in your first paragraph. A deck like Zoo attempts to maximize its typical plays by running redundant and equivalent threats. Kird Ape, Wild Nacatl, Loam Lion, all serve as quick attackers. Chain and Bolt act to both clear the way and provide reach. PtE provides an efficient answer to combating creatures without influencing life totals (unlike StP), and accounts for the only reactive element in the deck.

No where in Zoo do other types of reactive elements factor in. Mindbreak Trap is a concession that there is no way for Zoo to interact with Belcher and other Suicide-style Glass Cannons. Chant effects are more suitable for this purpose than both Mental Misstep and Mindbreak Trap, when used in conjunction with hatebears.

I for one, don't see Zoo with MM succeeding in the long term (3+ months after NPH).

[Forbiddian]

(I think he means you get $100 for making 14th place, whereas a deck without Mental Misstep will win 1st place, getting more money, and mocking people who played Mental Misstep).


I definitely come down on the camp of “This will change the way Legacy is played forever,” but I want to start with a fresh slate and explain why I think.


1) Mental Misstep gives a big advantage to the person playing the Misstep, REGARDLESS OF WHAT SPELL HE COUNTERED.

This is the crux of the issue, and it’s something that e.g. IBA, Nightmare, and I intuit (and have failed to describe so far) but it seems a lot of people are not understanding. You’re exchanging 2 life for 1 mana-tempo, and usually your opponent’s very first mana-tempo.

The best example of why this is a good interaction is a shockland. If you were playing shocklands, and you had even a weak turn 1 drop (like Kird Ape or Ponder or whatever), would you put the Shockland into play tapped? Mental Misstep’s effect is similar to forcing your opponent to play a shockland tapped. Whatever your opponent wanted to do with his first mana, you’re preventing him from doing that and you’re taking the initiative.

This isn’t to say that the best play is always to Misstep the first spell your opponent plays. But I’m pointing out that the reason why Misstep is good is that even if all you do with it is misstep the first spell your opponent plays you’re still better off for playing it because you're able to trade 2 life for 1 mana tempo early in the game.

2) Mental Misstep will (almost) always have a target, and usually a good number of targets, so it’ll never be a dead card (it hits more targets in more matchups than Swords to Plowshares, for comparison). It has no casting requirements, so your opponent can't blank your Misstep by playing around it. Basically if your opponent has a one-drop, you'll have an opportunity to use Mental Misstep and it will never do worse than stopping a card that your opponent decided to put into his deck.

3) Beyond never being dead, and ALWAYS being good on turn 1 (and at least being parity if topdecked), a number of Legacy decks have one drops that you need to answer anyway. Mental Misstep moves up from being a very solid tempo-stealing card to being the best possible answer to your opponent’s toughest questions in these situations.

Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, Sensei’s Diving Top, Tireless Tribe, High Tide, and dozens of other Legacy staples are commonly (and correctly) Force of Willed. I’m not saying that Mental Misstep is the same as Force of Will or something, just that there are a lot of 1 CMC spells that you need to answer and that you’ll gladly give up two blue cards and a life to handle. So you’re that much better off because you get to handle it with just a Misstep.

Some people seem to think that this (#3) is the primary reason why Mental Misstep is being hyped so much, since it’s a “free” Force of Will on a key bomb. It’s definitely a good reason to play Misstep and an advantage to keep in mind, but I think of this as a side-benefit. I would run Misstep if it just read something to the effect of, “The next land an opponent plays comes into play tapped. Draw a card.” The real Mental Misstep does that, plus it has the potential to gut your opponent’s gameplan by countering a key spell.

4) Mental Misstep can be played in any deck, and it’s a good answer for other Mental Missteps stealing tempo. If your deck plays a remotely interactive game, you’re going to want to slow your opponent down for free, potentially even stopping his bombs. And even if you don’t play an interactive game, you might need to protect your own 1 drops from your opponent’s Missteps. Once Misstep sees a lot of play, I don't really see many checks or balances keeping it from essentially saturating the non-chalice metagame.

Conclusions: For these reasons, Mental Misstep will certainly see a ton of play. I predict it will be in most every deck and the people who don’t run it will need to have a good reason after a month or two rolls around. This card wins every interaction, regardless of the deck it’s in, or that deck’s strategy, or its opponent’s strategy. Even if your deck has “answers to the problematic turn 1 drops”, if you’re paying more than 0 for those answers, you could be doing better. If you honestly wouldn’t pay 0 to stop whatever your opponent is doing, then he’s terrible for playing a shit card or you're retarded.

[klaus]

.

kudos. nicely put.

[SMR0079]

(I think he means you get $100 for making 14th place, whereas a deck without Mental Misstep will win 1st place, getting more money, and mocking people who played Mental Misstep).


I definitely come down on the camp of “This will change the way Legacy is played forever,” but I want to start with a fresh slate and explain why I think.


1) Mental Misstep gives a big advantage to the person playing the Misstep, REGARDLESS OF WHAT SPELL HE COUNTERED.

This is the crux of the issue, and it’s something that e.g. IBA, Nightmare, and I intuit (and have failed to describe so far) but it seems a lot of people are not understanding. You’re exchanging 2 life for 1 mana-tempo, and usually your opponent’s very first mana-tempo.

The best example of why this is a good interaction is a shockland. If you were playing shocklands, and you had even a weak turn 1 drop (like Kird Ape or Ponder or whatever), would you put the Shockland into play tapped? Mental Misstep’s effect is similar to forcing your opponent to play a shockland tapped. Whatever your opponent wanted to do with his first mana, you’re preventing him from doing that and you’re taking the initiative.

This isn’t to say that the best play is always to Misstep the first spell your opponent plays. But I’m pointing out that the reason why Misstep is good is that even if all you do with it is misstep the first spell your opponent plays you’re still better off for playing it because you're able to trade 2 life for 1 mana tempo early in the game.

2) Mental Misstep will (almost) always have a target, and usually a good number of targets, so it’ll never be a dead card (it hits more targets in more matchups than Swords to Plowshares, for comparison). It has no casting requirements, so your opponent can't blank your Misstep by playing around it. Basically if your opponent has a one-drop, you'll have an opportunity to use Mental Misstep and it will never do worse than stopping a card that your opponent decided to put into his deck.

3) Beyond never being dead, and ALWAYS being good on turn 1 (and at least being parity if topdecked), a number of Legacy decks have one drops that you need to answer anyway. Mental Misstep moves up from being a very solid tempo-stealing card to being the best possible answer to your opponent’s toughest questions in these situations.

Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, Sensei’s Diving Top, Tireless Tribe, High Tide, and dozens of other Legacy staples are commonly (and correctly) Force of Willed. I’m not saying that Mental Misstep is the same as Force of Will or something, just that there are a lot of 1 CMC spells that you need to answer and that you’ll gladly give up two blue cards and a life to handle. So you’re that much better off because you get to handle it with just a Misstep.

Some people seem to think that this (#3) is the primary reason why Mental Misstep is being hyped so much, since it’s a “free” Force of Will on a key bomb. It’s definitely a good reason to play Misstep and an advantage to keep in mind, but I think of this as a side-benefit. I would run Misstep if it just read something to the effect of, “The next land an opponent plays comes into play tapped. Draw a card.” The real Mental Misstep does that, plus it has the potential to gut your opponent’s gameplan by countering a key spell.

4) Mental Misstep can be played in any deck, and it’s a good answer for other Mental Missteps stealing tempo. If your deck plays a remotely interactive game, you’re going to want to slow your opponent down for free, potentially even stopping his bombs. And even if you don’t play an interactive game, you might need to protect your own 1 drops from your opponent’s Missteps. Once Misstep sees a lot of play, I don't really see many checks or balances keeping it from essentially saturating the non-chalice metagame.

Conclusions: For these reasons, Mental Misstep will certainly see a ton of play. I predict it will be in most every deck and the people who don’t run it will need to have a good reason after a month or two rolls around. This card wins every interaction, regardless of the deck it’s in, or that deck’s strategy, or its opponent’s strategy. Even if your deck has “answers to the problematic turn 1 drops”, if you’re paying more than 0 for those answers, you could be doing better. If you honestly wouldn’t pay 0 to stop whatever your opponent is doing, then he’s terrible for playing a shit card or you're retarded.

Thank you. One of the best summaries on the topic I have read. Maybe not 56 cards good, put more decks then not will be running it.

[Mana Drain]

Really people, saying Zoo and Combo would run MM is ridiculous, but every single blue deck in the format will probably be playing 3.

Tempo Thresh, Team America, and Merfolk all just go a monstrous boost.

[Scordata]

@IBA: Not to be off topic, but what does Knight + Karakas have to do with tendrils of agony?
Also, as stated by Forbiddian, MMing almost any turn 1 play is the tits as far as tempo is concerned. What I meant by "down a card," was not in comparison to MY hand, but their hand's previous size to casting MM.

[ivanpei]

Man, Zoo is nuts with MM, there is no doubt about it. Troopatroop plays UGwr Zoo with Daze and Force, I'm sure he is probably over the moon that he gets another goodie to play with. I'm pretty confident that MM packing Quick Zoo with Steppe Lynx/Price/Fireblast will be doing VERY well after this new set becomes legal. The most effective cards against zoo: Heirarch, Vial, STP, Path, EE for 1, Stifle, Bolt, Snare and various other 1 drops can be turned off by Zoo with MM at NO TEMPO LOST. Geez, I play a T1 Kitty and mess up your T1 play for free? I am waaayyy ahead in board position and am going to kick your teeth in. Fact.

[Koby]

Geez, I play a T1 Kitty and mess up your T1 play for free? I am waaayyy ahead in board position and am going to kick your teeth in. Fact.

Wait... I thought this was the MM thread, not the UW Tempo thread.

j/k :D

[Nelis]

Really people, saying Zoo and Combo would run MM is ridiculous, but every single blue deck in the format will probably be playing 3.

Tempo Thresh, Team America, and Merfolk all just go a monstrous boost.

Its not that ridiculous Goblins and Zoo will have to play it just to counter the opponent's one. Goblins also likes to protect their turn one Lackey, or their x turn warchief from removal.

[Forbiddian]

Its not that ridiculous Goblins and Zoo will have to play it just to counter the opponent's one. Goblins also likes to protect their turn one Lackey, or their x turn warchief from removal.

Lackey, Misstep enemy Swords.

Say: Problem?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Equals

No? To say that a card is good in an early game is not to say that you need redundant effects for it. Like, look at this deck (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37134). To give two very comparable examples, Wasteland is Alex Bertoncini's only way of attacking the opponent's mana base. Aether Vial is his only way of accelerating creature drops. Silvergill Adept is his only way of drawing cards.

And yet these are all four ofs and he's happy to run them. He doesn't feel compelled to run Rishadan Port just to double down on LD, or Standstill to draw more cards, or Chrome Mox to accelerate his fish out.

Why? Because he decided that Aether Vial was stronger than the next best option, and Chrome Mox wasn't. It's that simple. Redundancy doesn't factor into it. You want to to run the strongest group of cards possible. Synergy matters, but redundancy in and of itself is completely irrelevant.

Other than that I agree with Forbiddian's post and will leave it at that.

[Forbiddian]

I hope I didn't imply that I think redundancy means shit.

I was the guy running 3 daze and 2 aether vials.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You didn't, I meant more along the lines of, "Everything else Forbiddian seems to have covered."


@IBA: Not to be off topic, but what does Knight + Karakas have to do with tendrils of agony?

As far as I know, Doomsday lists all run Emrakul as their kill now.

[Koby]

...Merfolk example...

The point I was making, specifically for non-blue aggro decks, is that they are built to not interact with reactive cards by playing redundant and fungible threats. Burn is another example of such strategy, and by utilizing such threats minimizes the impact on a marginal draw. In your example you stated winning by turn 4-5. Without running Brainstorm/Ponder (and other manipulators), these decks are left to topdeck. Those topdecks had better be consistent and similar, else the deck is hailed as inconsistent.

Mental Misstep adds a detrimental effect to such a game plan, particularly when not paired with filtering. Moreover, it's a explicit reactive spell whereas the non-blue Aggro decks seek proactive spells such as burn. Perhaps even GSZ can fit the bill, as it finds a threat.

A better example for Bertoncini's list would be the odd inclusion of the solo Mishra's Factory in a deck built without Standstill. This is rather the redundant threat in the deck, all the while being dys-synergistic with Merfolk. It's only synergy is with other Mutavaults, only marginal at best.

The case of redundancy in an aggro deck can be visualized with Burn:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
= 16 spells that cost R to deal 3 damage. Does it matter which are drawn? Not very likely. I remember there was discussion in the "Do you board out FoW?" thread about when removing FoW against Zoo was probably the right call, as each of Zoo's threats are redundant. There is no single creature to counter that will turn the tide to control's favor because they are all effectively equivalent - turn sideways to deal damage; finish off with burn. It's usually just the first creature that is important, in an effort to maintain Tempo. Does Zoo care about Tempo? Sure it does. But it does so using threats rather than answers. Mental Misstep is more of an answer (= reactive). It does nothing to advance Zoo's board state.

Mental Misstep is counterproductive in that aspect when applied to the Aggro strategy.

FWIW, I also agree with Forbiddian's assessment. However, I think maindeck inclusion of MM in non-blue aggro is a futile effort. The points still remain overly positive for Tempo based Aggro-Control.

[catmint]

Really people, saying Zoo and Combo would run MM is ridiculous, but every single blue deck in the format will probably be playing 3.

Tempo Thresh, Team America, and Merfolk all just go a monstrous boost.

I guess Drew Levin SCG Author is also ridiculous.

From his Article abou MM:
...
Mental Misstep gives decks with a fast clock but without counterspells the ability to meaningfully disrupt combo decks. The biggest problem with green decks, red decks, and white decks in Legacy has been their weakness to combo decks. Cat Sligh is a perfectly reasonable deck but for the fact that it'll always be a turn and a half behind Tendrils and half a turn behind High Tide.

If the best “disruption” that a given deck can present to a dedicated combo deck is a turn 4 kill, it stands to reason that they'll be behind in the matchup. So what does Mental Misstep do to a Zoo vs. High Tide matchup?

It makes the High Tide deck have to have either two High Tides or a High Tide and a Force of Will. If the Zoo deck has two Mental Missteps backing its turn-four-to-five clock, though, combo players will start respecting a turn 1 Arid Mesa into Savannah and Cat.

Mental Misstep's prevalence need not stop at aggressive decks. I've always been a huge fan of Force of Will in combo decks, and Mental Misstep doesn't even ask you to throw away your cantrip!
...

[SlopeeJ]

I don't know if Drew is a legacy player, but if combo players can beat merfolk with force,daze, cursecatcher, spell pierce, wasteland I'm pretty sure they could give 2 shits about a wild nacatl with misstep back up.

Sure I'll give you that, zoo with 2 mental missteps in your hand in probably okay, except for the fact that you are cutting bolts and cats. Also I'm pretty sure most combo decks run up to 6-8 discard/chant effects and/or force of will with tutors, which is a little better than that 4 misstep in zoo. Zoo with 2 mindbreak traps in hand seems a lot better. As other people have said 4 missteps does nothing when you have nothing else to go with it.

I am hoping zoo runs this card and goblins. Can't wait for zoo to rip that misstep vs me or ringleader to flip over the missteps.....



The biggest problem with green decks, red decks, and white decks in Legacy has been that they don't run enough combo hate
Fixed

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The point I was making, specifically for non-blue aggro decks, is that they are built to not interact with reactive cards by playing redundant and fungible threats. Burn is another example of such strategy, and by utilizing such threats minimizes the impact on a marginal draw. In your example you stated winning by turn 4-5. Without running Brainstorm/Ponder (and other manipulators), these decks are left to topdeck. Those topdecks had better be consistent and similar, else the deck is hailed as inconsistent.

Mental Misstep adds a detrimental effect to such a game plan, particularly when not paired with filtering. Moreover, it's a explicit reactive spell whereas the non-blue Aggro decks seek proactive spells such as burn. Perhaps even GSZ can fit the bill, as it finds a threat.

A better example for Bertoncini's list would be the odd inclusion of the solo Mishra's Factory in a deck built without Standstill. This is rather the redundant threat in the deck, all the while being dys-synergistic with Merfolk. It's only synergy is with other Mutavaults, only marginal at best.

The case of redundancy in an aggro deck can be visualized with Burn:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
= 16 spells that cost R to deal 3 damage. Does it matter which are drawn? Not very likely. I remember there was discussion in the "Do you board out FoW?" thread about when removing FoW against Zoo was probably the right call, as each of Zoo's threats are redundant. There is no single creature to counter that will turn the tide to control's favor because they are all effectively equivalent - turn sideways to deal damage; finish off with burn. It's usually just the first creature that is important, in an effort to maintain Tempo. Does Zoo care about Tempo? Sure it does. But it does so using threats rather than answers. Mental Misstep is more of an answer (= reactive). It does nothing to advance Zoo's board state.

Mental Misstep is counterproductive in that aspect when applied to the Aggro strategy.

FWIW, I also agree with Forbidden's assessment. However, I think maindeck inclusion of MM in non-blue aggro is a futile effort. The points still remain overly positive for Tempo based Aggro-Control.

Again, Bertocini's list only ran one card draw spell, if you want to describe Silvergill Adept, which doesn't filter, as a card draw spell.

There's simply no basis to say that a deck needs filtering or for every card in the deck to do much the same thing. Merfolk is a perfect example of a deck that is half synergies, and half disparate but powerful effects. It's fine without filtering; it lives on the averages. It's not like filtering is or ever will be perfect, anyway, you just have to rely on your deck having a good mix of the right threats and answers anyway.

Again; redundancy does not matter. There's no basis for saying so. All that matters is win percentages. If 4 Mental Misstep in Zoo is better than the 4 weakest non-Misstep cards in any given list- and I think it definitely is- then it should absolutely be run. You can keep saying "reactive" and "redundancy" as if these words meant anything in a vacuum, but disrupting the opponent's early game and establishing dominance at that crucial choke point is exactly what Zoo should like to do.

eta:

Just as a quick check, if Wizards printed the following card:

Tour de Force
0
Instant
Counter target spell.

Does anyone think that there's a deck that wouldn't want to run it? Because they'd be wrong. Such a card would clearly be an auto-include in every serious deck, and I do mean every single one. It would be incorrect not to play it, it doesn't matter whether or not a deck would want Daze. It doesn't matter what your gameplan is. What matters is that whatever your gameplan is, Tour de Force would make it better.

Mental Misstep is more narrow than that, but not that much more narrow. It's still an incredibly versatile free counterspell. Whether it works for a deck depends largely on whether it counters the cards that deck tends to worry about. Zoo, which is focused strongly on the early game, worries disproportionately about one drops and removal, so yes, Zoo should absolutely play the card.

[a-slice-of-cake]

I'm sorry, Assassin -- I usually agree with your points while I lurk, but I have to speak for the opposition here. Mental Misstep is great against Mental Misstep, sure, and it helps Zoo not be auto-dead to combo. Sometimes you'll save yourself from Stifle, Swords, or even Spell Snare and feel like a boss. The problem is that it doesn't further the deck's game plan: Beat your opponent to death as quickly as possible. Every time you have a Misstep in hand, that misstep could have been another threat or burn spell. It's not a matter of "redundancy" or proactive vs. reactive when it comes to scholarly assessment. It's a matter of what the friggin' deck does, and for a deck like Zoo that wants to get maximum value out of every card they have, a card that does absolutely nothing on its own and simply serves to protect the rest of the deck conditionally doesn't fit the bill.

[marax]

First of all people discrediting MM as a maindeck card need to realize this card will not be maindecked to shore up combo matchups. It will be run for very different reasons. I also propose you guys simply test the card instead of making up some artificial theories what is good and what is not. These are my results so far (sample is still small; I still might change my mind of course):

I have not tested enough right now, but so far I like my BUG Deedstill build using MM to improve early game vs. Vial decks and T2 standstills against anybody on the play as well. (I have cut Spell snare/Spell pierce/pinpojnt removal Nr. 6 slots). I like it so far in my Big Zoo list to gain tempo advantage in the very diceroll dependant Mirror match or against traditional Fast Zoo/Cat sligh Lists where the guy on the play is one beat ahead in the race and cheap removal canl blow me out on the draw. I can also use it to protect a Teeg found by a Green Sun in other matchups like NO Bant. (I cut Sword/Path number 6, 2 Goyf (worst creature in deck :laugh:, singleton Jitte for now). While Tribal is a strong matchup close games usually revolve around Vial's and the tempo associated with them. All of these improvements also have come hand in hand with improving my Storm and Dredge matchups by quite a bit. This is why I am pretty confident I will play MM in my Big Zoo list one NPH goes live. I also fiddled around with my B/R goblin build and combo lists. I did not find space for the card there.

[trivial_matters]

Zoo, which is focused strongly on the early game, worries disproportionately about one drops and removal, so yes, Zoo should absolutely play the card.

In my experience, the opposite is the case. All your opponent's one-drops will probably be weaker than yours. Alll the burn you're running takes care of them as well.
Assuming you're refering to Swords to Plowshares as removal, that card is not so bad for the Zoo player. Mass removal like Firespout is way worse, against which Mental Misstep does nothing.

[TsumiBand]

Using a Burn list as an argument for redundancy is pretty much the exception that proves the rule; the fact that it runs a billion spells which deal 3 damage for R is really just a way for the deck to say "resolve 6 - 7 spells without actually interacting with target opponent, win the game". It's like Storm combo only spread out over the first 3 - 4 turns. It is also a strange metagame deck which will probably start feeling a lot less 'metagamey' with Mental Misstep coming out.

As for Mental Misstep itself; I think there's definitely a critical mass of built-in life loss which a given deck has that MM may find itself on the 'tipping point' side of. Like, any deck that tends to lead with turn 1 fetchland, Thoughtseize. Do I seriously go down to 15 to counter the one-drop that I didn't Seize away? Suddenly the opponent's Storm count is like, lethal at 4. Awesome? So no, I don't think that Mental Misstep just magically ends up somewhere in everyone's 75.

I think there's something to be said for a strong disruption package that targets the opponent's first couple of turns. But, does Mental Misstep get played in a counter package that necessarily does more than an active Counter-Top?

[Mr. Safety]

I look at Mental Misstep a little bit like playing Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast in a burn sideboard against blue decks...it's decieving. It seems like the obvious choice, but they are Lightning Bolts that do 0 damage. That's bad for a burn deck that needs to be cleaning up turn 3, not trying to halt a blue deck. Sulfuric Vortex does so much more for the burn deck against blue decks that Pyroblast shouldn't even really be a consideration.

As far as Mental Misstep in zoo...ugh, same deal. It's a spell that protects your spells...it's really not smart. The reason aggro is typically favored against control is because the number of threats it uses. You counter one, I've got 3 more in hand. If Mental Misstep stopped CounterBalance, I'd say it would be worth it...in the sideboard maybe. The idea that decks just became 56 cards, IMHO, is a little off the mark. CERTAIN decks just became 56 cards, but not all. I see Tempo decks running this, I even see it in some sideboards (possibly) but you'll have to sell it to me a little harder for maindeck inclusion for aggro decks like zoo. I still feel Traps and Canonists are just so much stronger in the board vs. combo. You need layered hate that furthers your game plan. Mindbreak Trap is a neccessity, Canonist is the backup that also beats for 2.

[Mr. Safety]

The point I was making, specifically for non-blue aggro decks, is that they are built to not interact with reactive cards by playing redundant and fungible threats. Burn is another example of such strategy, and by utilizing such threats minimizes the impact on a marginal draw. In your example you stated winning by turn 4-5. Without running Brainstorm/Ponder (and other manipulators), these decks are left to topdeck. Those topdecks had better be consistent and similar, else the deck is hailed as inconsistent.

Mental Misstep adds a detrimental effect to such a game plan, particularly when not paired with filtering. Moreover, it's a explicit reactive spell whereas the non-blue Aggro decks seek proactive spells such as burn. Perhaps even GSZ can fit the bill, as it finds a threat.

A better example for Bertoncini's list would be the odd inclusion of the solo Mishra's Factory in a deck built without Standstill. This is rather the redundant threat in the deck, all the while being dys-synergistic with Merfolk. It's only synergy is with other Mutavaults, only marginal at best.

The case of redundancy in an aggro deck can be visualized with Burn:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
= 16 spells that cost R to deal 3 damage. Does it matter which are drawn? Not very likely. I remember there was discussion in the "Do you board out FoW?" thread about when removing FoW against Zoo was probably the right call, as each of Zoo's threats are redundant. There is no single creature to counter that will turn the tide to control's favor because they are all effectively equivalent - turn sideways to deal damage; finish off with burn. It's usually just the first creature that is important, in an effort to maintain Tempo. Does Zoo care about Tempo? Sure it does. But it does so using threats rather than answers. Mental Misstep is more of an answer (= reactive). It does nothing to advance Zoo's board state.

Mental Misstep is counterproductive in that aspect when applied to the Aggro strategy.

FWIW, I also agree with Forbiddian's assessment. However, I think maindeck inclusion of MM in non-blue aggro is a futile effort. The points still remain overly positive for Tempo based Aggro-Control.

Oops, missed this. What he said, lol. ^^^^

[Skeggi]

If Mental Misstep stopped CounterBalance, I'd say it would be worth it...in the sideboard maybe.
It could counter Sensei's Divining Top. Would that be worth it?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

My God, it's like I'm dealing with an alternate universe.

Path to Exile is a "reactive card". For that matter, so are Qasali Pridemage and Grim Lavamancer; these aren't the most aggressive creatures in the world by themselves, they're played for their ability to interact with the opponent.

This idea that aggressive decks don't try to interact with the opponent is pure stuff and nonsense, faerie dust, drawn from thin air and fanciful delusions of how the game works.

Evey deck strives to play the cards that best help it to win the game. That is all. Fidelity to some theme or concept of redundancy/consistency is strictly casual player territory.

[Zlatzman]

I've been playing White Weenie for a couple of events now, and I think I want MM in my 75 somewhere to shore up some weak matchups. Ethersworn Canonist, Mental Misstep and Phyrexian Revoker together should make the combo matchup somewhat playable. As a bonus both MM and Revoker are also good against many aggro-control lists, and decent against control-lists. The way I see it Mental Misstep complements my other "hate cards" nicely, and does so against a variety of archetypes.

[GGoober]

The point I was making, specifically for non-blue aggro decks, is that they are built to not interact with reactive cards by playing redundant and fungible threats. Burn is another example of such strategy, and by utilizing such threats minimizes the impact on a marginal draw. In your example you stated winning by turn 4-5. Without running Brainstorm/Ponder (and other manipulators), these decks are left to topdeck. Those topdecks had better be consistent and similar, else the deck is hailed as inconsistent.

Mental Misstep adds a detrimental effect to such a game plan, particularly when not paired with filtering. Moreover, it's a explicit reactive spell whereas the non-blue Aggro decks seek proactive spells such as burn. Perhaps even GSZ can fit the bill, as it finds a threat.

A better example for Bertoncini's list would be the odd inclusion of the solo Mishra's Factory in a deck built without Standstill. This is rather the redundant threat in the deck, all the while being dys-synergistic with Merfolk. It's only synergy is with other Mutavaults, only marginal at best.

The case of redundancy in an aggro deck can be visualized with Burn:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
= 16 spells that cost R to deal 3 damage. Does it matter which are drawn? Not very likely. I remember there was discussion in the "Do you board out FoW?" thread about when removing FoW against Zoo was probably the right call, as each of Zoo's threats are redundant. There is no single creature to counter that will turn the tide to control's favor because they are all effectively equivalent - turn sideways to deal damage; finish off with burn. It's usually just the first creature that is important, in an effort to maintain Tempo. Does Zoo care about Tempo? Sure it does. But it does so using threats rather than answers. Mental Misstep is more of an answer (= reactive). It does nothing to advance Zoo's board state.

Mental Misstep is counterproductive in that aspect when applied to the Aggro strategy.

FWIW, I also agree with Forbiddian's assessment. However, I think maindeck inclusion of MM in non-blue aggro is a futile effort. The points still remain overly positive for Tempo based Aggro-Control.

Before this gets buried, thanks Rukcus because this addresses the point on why MM doesn't find itself in some decks. Burn is an example. You can run MM to counter a spell that targets your game winning spell, but at the same time, that MM slot could well be another game-winning burn spell that fulfills the same function, except that you don't end up drawing a dead card when you're trying to kill an opponent instead on drawing a spell that is now sitting in your hand trynig to counter another counter when you could have easily killed them.

I stand by confidently that Zoo lists won't be packing MM after they had some fun losing more often with the card than winning with it. It does nothing for Zoo to solve the problems it faces. You think StP is the card stopping Zoo from beating control? You think combo really gives a shit about Zoo with 4 MM? You think drawing that MM on turn 3 is going to do anything to decks that already have played out their Tops/vials/StP? If you feel Zoo does better with MM for a general meta, sure go ahead and play it. I would love Zoo to play MM since this gives me an easier time with control. Well, if you cut Path, maybe it'll be tougher for control since you now have less dead cards, but good luck on the other matchups where Path is more critical in actually hitting Goyfs/Knights/Tombstalkers (non 1-cmc spells). Again, the question is: what do you cut? How MUCH do you gain? You guys probably know more than I do, but I know I probably don't know enough becase I have yet to actually play with the card in Zoo, and this card hasn't even been in the format yet, and here we have people saying it goes in every deck...

Don't forget that MM in an aggressive deck like Zoo, filled with redundancy doesn't offer much past turn 3. Sure an MM/stP on a nacatl is quite sad for Zoo, but outside of that scenario, MM/stp on your creature is something you can't avoid, and I would rather have other cards e.g. Library/Path in the slot of that 4 MM to actually win games rather than wait around in the mid-late game to counter useless stuff. Now, the scenario is reveresed for a deck like Team America, where MM is both good early and late game. Early game, you're using MM to support your OTHER tempo strategies, late-game, that MM is gonig to protect a Tombstalker, because you know Team America only runs 8 creatures unlike Zoo that plays over 16 creatures??

[brattin]

I'm not going to make a very strong statement, because honestly, I mostly netdeck. When I'm trying out a new deck, I find a list that's done well recently and adjust it my card card availability, or I proxy. Occasionally I'll make a minor change. I think Mental Misstep seems great in a lot of (blue) decks I want to play (if I don't need it, at least I can brainstorm it away or pitch it to force, right?), and I can imagine it being really good for nonblue decks as well, but I understand reluctance to put it in these decks. Goblins isn't supposed to run non-goblins, unless they're lands or vials! This is like a hard and fast rule, right? Well...except for lightning bolts, which cleared a way for my lackeys in a number of spots, and gave me some reach. Hell, they're not terrible against ad nauseum either. Sure, it sucks when you see them off a ringleader, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth playing them sometimes (maindeck, no less). MM does some of the same things (make way for a lackey by countering first turn blockers, do something semi-relevant vs. storm), only for no mana.

Just to be explicit: I think MM could be run profitably in the vast majority of decks. There are times when it shouldn't be run, but I think probably every deck that runs force and brainstorm should run MM, and probably many (that is, more than half?) of the decks that don't.

I think the Tour de Force thought experiment is telling, because at first thought, I DON'T want to run it in every deck. While clearly I should.

[ajfennewald]

I don't know if Drew is a legacy player, but if combo players can beat merfolk with force,daze, cursecatcher, spell pierce, wasteland I'm pretty sure they could give 2 shits about a wild nacatl with misstep back up.

Sure I'll give you that, zoo with 2 mental missteps in your hand in probably okay, except for the fact that you are cutting bolts and cats. Also I'm pretty sure most combo decks run up to 6-8 discard/chant effects and/or force of will with tutors, which is a little better than that 4 misstep in zoo. Zoo with 2 mindbreak traps in hand seems a lot better. As other people have said 4 missteps does nothing when you have nothing else to go with it.

I am hoping zoo runs this card and goblins. Can't wait for zoo to rip that misstep vs me or ringleader to flip over the missteps.....



Fixed
but zoo goldfishes on turn 4 while merfolk goldfishes on turn 5( and pitching lords to FOW and being set back a land drop from daze hinders this speed a decent amount too). not saying misstep is enough to beat combo but zoo fundamentally needs less disruption to get the win

[Mr. Safety]

It could counter Sensei's Divining Top. Would that be worth it?

NO. Top isn't a threat in and of itself, it's just card quality with an activation cost. Bob and CB (the most common cards used with it) are the bigger threats...for what they can do. I'd rather have Krosan Grip...it's out of CounterTop range (usually) and will take care of EITHER. Hell, I'd rather play Ancient Gruge than Mental Misstep! You at least get 2 effects for 1 card.

MM is sideboard tech for aggro decks in it's BEST application, and that would only be to shore up the combo matchup, and as I've stated before, I STILL feel Canonist + Traps is still better.

[nedleeds]

Wow 56 card decks now ... or every non Chalice of the Void deck.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Wait, didn't you say how awesome Mental Misstep is in blue decks a few hours ago? Because actually blue based decks with few threats are the decks that want this card the most. I'm totally psyched about playing New Horizons again with these babies. Daze always sucked in that deck.

[nedleeds]

I'd rather have Krosan Grip...it's out of CounterTop range (usually) and will take care of EITHER. Hell, I'd rather play Ancient Gruge than Mental Misstep! You at least get 2 effects for 1 card.

I'd rather have an orange than an apple.

You aren't comparing like cards at all, just jumping off the observation that it counters SDT on the Draw. You are are also bringing up cards with colored mana, which means you really fail to grasp the ubiquity that this card will have in the format.

[Humphrey]

im pretty sure lots of decks will be running mm. if zoo too, im not sure. ofc its nuts on the first turns, later its an awful topdeck. imagine the opp is on low life and cleared the board. every thread or burn might kill him and all you got is an useless counter. in pure aggro, mm is a worse card, in aggrocontrol it shines the most.

[ivanpei]

I'd advocate MM in a REALLY quick Zoo list. I probably will not play it in a Slower Big Zoo list as you want to Max out your threats and you are playing the midrange role anyway. But have a look at this example:

Cat Slight
4 Necatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Figure of Destiny

4 Bolt
4 Chain
4 Path
4 Misstep
2 Fireblast
2 Price of Progress

20 lands

In decks like this which are absolutely balls to the wall, MM plays a huge role in out-tempoing the opponent. This list can sure as hell race Storm, especially with the help of MM.

[TsumiBand]

You guys realize you're talking about using Mental Misstep the way, like, Angel Stompy used to use Mother of Runes, right? Please stop being excited about putting MM in your aggro deck :(

[ivanpei]

You guys realize you're talking about using Mental Misstep the way, like, Angel Stompy used to use Mother of Runes, right? Please stop being excited about putting MM in your aggro deck :(

Ur, mother of runes was one of the best cards in Angel Stompy? What about a mother of runes that counters Aether Vial/Sensei's Divining top for 0 mana? I'm not getting what point you are making here.

I'm just pointing out that a tempo centric, super quick zoo list or catsligh would want Missteps. If you are playing a bigger-midgame Zoo list, Misstep probably isn't as great because you want to have as many bombs as possible for threat overload. Also, even with misstep, Big Zoo still has no chance of racing combo, so why bother?

[SlopeeJ]

Thats the whole point, why does zoo give a shit about countering vial? They play creatures and burn, they don't want to counter shit

[menace13]

This card is so good it makes my penis tingle. There.. end of discussion.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Thats the whole point, why does zoo give a shit about countering vial? They play creatures and burn, they don't want to counter shit

Vial lets Goblins accelerate its gameplan and drop a bunch of guys to stall the ground game against Zoo; I'm going to guess that countering a turn 1 vial probably averages out to three entire creatures that don't hit the board by turn 5. Against Merfolk it stops Standstill from drawing cards if they run that, and certainly stops the main plan of "get a bunch of lords into play by turn 4-5 so all my guys are too big to burn out."

[ivanpei]

Thats the whole point, why does zoo give a shit about countering vial? They play creatures and burn, they don't want to counter shit

If you are saying that countering a T1 play for FREE is not a huge tempo advantage for an aggro deck like Zoo and is unimportant, I have nothing else to say. Obviously the concepts of tempo are blurry for you. Would you trade your Pridemage for a Vial? Definitely, that's one of the most common targets for pridemage. Would you trade 1 card for a vial with no mana investment on your side? HELL YES.

Protection for your T1 drop is also bloody important. If your Necatl/Steppe Lynx is connecting on T2, you are way ahead of the damage race. Saying that it doesn't matter is just ridiculous.

[Shawn]

NO. Top isn't a threat in and of itself, it's just card quality with an activation cost. Bob and CB (the most common cards used with it) are the bigger threats...for what they can do. I'd rather have Krosan Grip...it's out of CounterTop range (usually) and will take care of EITHER. Hell, I'd rather play Ancient Gruge than Mental Misstep! You at least get 2 effects for 1 card.

Top is way more frightening by itself than CB. Bob is much easier to kill than Top as well. If I were playing a blue tempo deck, I'd much rather counter a card that invalidates my mana-denial plan and have them have a card in play that can randomly counter a spell here and there over countering CB.

Similarly, If I am playing a control deck, I am much more concerned about Top. Not to mention Misstep conveniently stops an artifact that single-handedly shuts off large portions of blue cards control decks are based around: Counterbalance, FoW/Snare/Counterspell/etc., and Standstill.

[SlopeeJ]

I'm sorry zoo doesn't beat merfolk by killing vial, they win by having burn for all the creatures. Talk about tempo.... I pay 2 or 3 mana for a 2/2 creature and you pay 1 mana for a burn spell while you pay 1/2 mana for 3/3 5/6s. I would say the same thing for goblins, you win by burning their creatures and playing bigger ones. Sure having vial helps but the same problem is still there and having 4 less burn spells hurts zoo. Merfolk/goblins do run some lands I'm pretty sure and can cast their creatures.

What I think is a good tempo boost for merfolk is zoo running 4 counterspells instead of burn/creatures. I have 4 daze, 4 force, 4 mental misstep, along with cursecatcher and spell pierce. Good call on your 4 counterspells, I'm sure the life loss and fetches will also help the race

And no sacing your Pridemage for vial is not an auto in the matchup, exalted cats are hard to beat


Obviously the concepts of tempo are blurry for you
No it is clear to me. That is why I run 4 force, 4 daze and now 4 mental misstep in a tempo deck.... Along with wasteland and vial. Trying to insult me doesn't make your point any less ignorant

[ivanpei]

And no sacing your Pridemage for vial is not an auto in the matchup, exalted cats are hard to beat


This alone supports my argument. If you won't trade 1 exalted for killing a vial, I can't really say much more to convince you.

[ivanpei]

And no sacing your Pridemage for vial is not an auto in the matchup, exalted cats are hard to beat


This alone supports my argument. If you won't trade 1 exalted for killing a vial, I can't really say much more to convince you.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Instead of burning all their creatures, I would rather spend one card and zero mana killing Vial, zap the one, two creatures they'll get out in time to matter, and then burn their face. Spending burn on creatures, giving them spare mana to use Wastelands or Mutavaults or to pump up Coralhelm Commander seems bad.

[troopatroop]

I'm sorry zoo doesn't beat merfolk by killing vial, they win by having burn for all the creatures. Talk about tempo.... I pay 2 or 3 mana for a 2/2 creature and you pay 1 mana for a burn spell while you pay 1/2 mana for 3/3 5/6s. I would say the same thing for goblins, you win by burning their creatures and playing bigger ones. Sure having vial helps but the same problem is still there and having 4 less burn spells hurts zoo. Merfolk/goblins do run some lands I'm pretty sure and can cast their creatures.

Misstep on Vial is great against Merfolk. Aether Vial is your best card. It can punish draws/mulligans that depend on it, makes Daze worse for you, and makes you play fair. Zoo dominates Merfolk when they don't find Jitte or Vial, and his list has plenty of removal and burn.



What I think is a good tempo boost for merfolk is zoo running 4 counterspells instead of burn/creatures. I have 4 daze, 4 force, 4 mental misstep, along with cursecatcher and spell pierce. Good call on your 4 counterspells, I'm sure the life loss and fetches will also help the race

What race? Wild Nacatl -> Go and you're not racing through removal. 4 Aether Vial, 4 Mental Misstep, Cursecatcher and Spell Pierce?

Yum. Targets.




And no sacing your Pridemage for vial is not an auto in the matchup, exalted cats are hard to beat


No it is clear to me. That is why I run 4 force, 4 daze and now 4 mental misstep in a tempo deck.... Along with wasteland and vial. Trying to insult me doesn't make your point any less ignorant


Note that his "fast" build cut Pridemage. I'm not saying that this Merfolk configuration you're playing is wrong, but Mental Misstep is good against it.

[SlopeeJ]

Does that even make sense? You're saying that a zoo player sacing his pridemage is an auto vs merfolk and I'm saying no it isn't that is bad. Wtf does that have to do with you saying mental misstep is good in zoo. I have played plenty of zoo who are scared of vial and then I just cast my creatures and they could have hit me for up to 6/8+ damage with the pridemage

So again having an exalted creature swing is zoo's plan, not spending 3 mana and sacing a creature to kill a vial. Sure there are times when sacing is right, but there are also times when you cast creatures/burn and win. What if I don't draw vial? You have 4 dead cards in your deck.. Sure people have listed plenty of cards/situations that are good, but I can list just as many that are bad

How much of a tempo boost do you get if I go turn 1 vial and then you rip the misstep? Or just pass and drop commander? The list goes on and on both ways.. I would bet that putting a card that is out of color and not even in the decks strategy is bad.

Don't forget you can still counter the spell for 1 mana...... in blue decks


Ps same goes for needle on vial, needling vial with control doesn't stop merfolk and mean gg. They can still cast coralhelms and Lord of Atlantis


So again 4 force, 4 daze, 4 mental misstep, 4 cursecatcher, 3 spell pierce vs your 4 mental misstep....

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm fairly certain that all other things being equal, you want Merfolk to actually pay for their spells.

[Skeggi]

Top isn't a threat in and of itself
I have to disagree. Top is a wonderful card on itself, considering you play at least 7 fetchlands.

MM is sideboard tech for aggro decks in it's BEST application
That's a bold statement. I haven't tested the card, so I cannot say whether you're right or not, but I suspect its impact will be bigger than this.

Canonist + Traps is still betterAgainst combo, I agree. If you want versatility, I disagree.

[Mr. Safety]

I'd rather have an orange than an apple.

You aren't comparing like cards at all, just jumping off the observation that it counters SDT on the Draw. You are are also bringing up cards with colored mana, which means you really fail to grasp the ubiquity that this card will have in the format.

It was in specific reference to the ideat hat MM is worth including to counter SDT, that's all. Grips and Grudges cover so many more problematic cards than MM does. Grips alone can handle both CB and SDT...MM can only handle Tops. If you're planning hate in your sideboard, you only have 15 slots, and those slots need to be more than a 1-trick pony. I wouldn't want MM in the control matchup...I would want more threats. I've already stated that Traps + Canonists are a better action plan than MM for the combo matchup. In the control matchup like CounterTop, I'd probably sideboard in Krosan Grip and most likely drop Path to Exile for it...and keep the same game plan: turn dudes sideways and hustle burn.

I am also refrencing a specific deck: zoo. There is a lot of hype about zoo playing MM, and I just don't see it. It's possible, but my experience has been that it just won't be worth sacrificing threats for answers, not for a deck like zoo. In the combo matchup its a neccessary evil, and it needs to be duel-layered at that (Canonist or Traps won't get you the hate you need on their own...they both need to be in there.) Combo is zoo's worst matchup...so a good # of sideboard slots are dedicated to it (usually at least 5-6).


I essentially see 2 decks running SDT: junk and CounterTop (sometimes Deadguy Ale or The Gate, but these are generally less common). Against junk, I want to out-aggro them and kill bob with bolts. Against CounterTop I want to get threats down ASAP before CB/SDT get online, and bring in Grips so I can can get my burn spells into the game. Given the choice, I'd probably kill Counterbalance with Grip and leave the Top...and try to out-race them. The CounterTop matchup isn't so bad that you need duel-layered hate like MM and Grips...I think Grips are enough (along with just a shit-ton of threats). Firespout is usually a sideboard card for CounterTop (I think anyways, do they use it maindeck now?) so it's something you can play around with your SB (like with Sulfuric Vortex)

In a nutshell, Mental Misstep, IMO, is the spell every OTHER deck wants AGAINST zoo. Zoo doesn't need MM to coutner MM...it needs more threats than the other deck has answers. Again, just my opinion...take it or leave it.

BTW, I am slightly retarded...:tongue:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I notice that you said that your sideboard slots need to be more than one trick ponies, and then you listed off cards that are much more narrow than Mental Misstep and have less applications. Soooo....

[Skeggi]

I notice that you said that your sideboard slots need to be more than one trick ponies, and then you listed off cards that are much more narrow than Mental Misstep and have less applications. Soooo....
And cost mana....yuck! Paying mana for spells is so 1995.

[Mr. Safety]

I notice that you said that your sideboard slots need to be more than one trick ponies, and then you listed off cards that are much more narrow than Mental Misstep and have less applications. Soooo....

edited...omg I'm slow, lol

[Mr. Safety]

I have to disagree. Top is a wonderful card on itself, considering you play at least 7 fetchlands.

That's a bold statement. I haven't tested the card, so I cannot say whether you're right or not, but I suspect its impact will be bigger than this.
Against combo, I agree. If you want versatility, I disagree.


I can tell simply by your statement about SDT that you are a control oriented player...you understand that cards like Top can win you the game. I understand that, sure. What I'm saying is that Top is not a literal 'threat' as in one that will take your life total down. If I'm playing zoo, I want to take them to zero life PRONTO. That means I want that card in hand to convert to at least 3 damage.

[Skeggi]

I can tell simply by your statement about SDT that you are a control oriented player...you understand that cards like Top can win you the game. I understand that, sure. What I'm saying is that Top is not a literal 'threat' as in one that will take your life total down. If I'm playing zoo, I want to take them to zero life PRONTO. That means I want that card in hand to convert to at least 3 damage.
Ofcourse Top is probably not the best card to use in Zoo, but according to this logic Sylvan Library is also a bad card for Zoo. Anyway, that's not the point, we were talking about the importance of Sensei's Divining Top in Counterbalance decks, and for this deck more than others, Sensei's Divining Top is essential. The ability to counter that turn 1 Top seems like something Zoo would welcome, the fact that this costs :0: instead of the :1: you pay for Pithing Needle also seems like something Zoo wants, because you can still play your turn 1 Wild Nacatl.

[Mr. Safety]

Ofcourse Top is probably not the best card to use in Zoo, but according to this logic Sylvan Library is also a bad card for Zoo. Anyway, that's not the point, we were talking about the importance of Sensei's Divining Top in Counterbalance decks, and for this deck more than others, Sensei's Divining Top is essential. The ability to counter that turn 1 Top seems like something Zoo would welcome, the fact that this costs :0: instead of the :1: you pay for Pithing Needle also seems like something Zoo wants, because you can still play your turn 1 Wild Nacatl.

Valid point...nicely worded!

[Mr. Safety]

I notice that you said that your sideboard slots need to be more than one trick ponies, and then you listed off cards that are much more narrow than Mental Misstep and have less applications. Soooo....


Narrower, sure, but more effective in doing what your sideboard needs to. Sure, Mental Misstep could counter a lot of spells...but you don't need your sideboard to attack EVERYTHING...just your bad matchups.

[SlopeeJ]

haha bringing in needle vs top in zoo is terrible. You already have much better card with split second that beats counter balance, also along with the other cards such as moat bridge long list. If it isn't top paired with counterbalance locking you out of the game, zoo doesn't care about top. You can still play your turn one Nacatl without mental misstep and you might still even have relevant card in your hand.. Like another cat or bolt or goyf or anything that isn't mental misstep

[Mr. Safety]

haha bringing in needle vs top in zoo is terrible. You already have much better card with split second that beats counter balance, also along with the other cards such as moat bridge long list. If it isn't top paired with counterbalance locking you out of the game, zoo doesn't car about top. You can still play your turn one Nacatl without mental misstep and you might still even have relevant card in your hand.. Like another cat or bolt or goyf or anything that isn't mental misstep

Word up! You reinforced my understanding of threat density and why its important in zoo. I still feel Skeggi's point is Valid though...given the right metagame, Mental Misstep could have a lot of value (especially in a metagame chock full of combo decks and CounterTop decks, the CounterTop decks also trying to fight the combo decks with Mental Misstep)

EDIT: go here and read this (if you haven't already read it from the thread it belongs to)

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21733_The_Long_And_Winding_Road_Mental_Misstep_Hysteria.html

At least Matt Elias agrees with me, lol.

[bruno_tiete]

Grips and Grudges cover so many more problematic cards than MM does. Grips alone can handle both CB and SDT...MM can only handle Tops.

I am pretty confidant that if we take a look at Legacy most played spells, the "1cc" class beats the hell out of the "Grippable" class.

A few pages ago you mentioned you'd rather have Grudge vs Top. Not only that is tempo loss(1RG vs 2), but also it's likely to net you -1 card. Even if you DO Grudge in response to fetchlands or else, they are not down a card, while you are soon to be when you try that out of the graveyard for the second time.

From what I understand, your catch-all spells should come in the MD, while your specific bullets sit in the board. They can be narrower and more efficient in their mission, for they won't sit dead draws nearly as much simply because you'll just play them when relevant.

Given the format is so 1cc intense, why would one waste SB slots in them? They seem like "play in MD or don't" to me. I don't remember seeing people playing broad stuff like Vindicate or Force of Will* out of the board. Either they fit your plan and go MD or they just don't. Sure, MM is less broad than both, but still a lot more than Grip or Grudge or even Gaddock Teeg.


*Yeah, that one Dredge list.

[Mr. Safety]

I am pretty confidant that if we take a look at Legacy most played spells, the "1cc" class beats the hell out of the "Grippable" class.

Zoo plays those spells...which is good. It maintains a high threat density. Read the article, you'll know where I'm coming from.


A few pages ago you mentioned you'd rather have Grudge vs Top. Not only that is tempo loss(1RG vs 2), but also it's likely to net you -1 card. Even if you DO Grudge in response to fetchlands or else, they are not down a card, while you are soon to be when you try that out of the graveyard for the second time.

Wha-huh? Anicent Grudge for 1R on the play, then simply G whenever you feel the need. Great against Affinity (killing 2 artifacts for 3 mana and 1 card? In case you hadn't noticed, that's what we sometimes call 'card advantage'.) Grip is uncounterable (usually) vs CounterTop, so it gets the nod in a CounterTop heavy meta...but in an affinity/stompy heavy meta, I'd take Grudges over Grips.


From what I understand, your catch-all spells should come in the MD, while your specific bullets sit in the board. They can be narrower and more efficient in their mission, for they won't sit dead draws nearly as much simply because you'll just play them when relevant.

I fundamentally agree with you on the second line...but you shouldn't look at your deck (especially zoo!) as a maindeck full of 'catch-all' spells...it should be a focused strategy that wins you the game. Utility is important (ie Qasali Pridemage) but other than that, zoo is dudes and burn, plain and simple. Even Pridemage hits for 3 on his own and adds a combat bonus, so that makes him just about PERFECT for zoo. Zoo is about posing threats, not catch-all answers. You want to be the aggro, for sure. Sideboard hate is about giving you game vs. your bad matchups.


Given the format is so 1cc intense, why would one waste SB slots in them? They seem like "play in MD or don't" to me. I don't remember seeing people playing broad stuff like Vindicate or Force of Will* out of the board. Either they fit your plan and go MD or they just don't. Sure, MM is less broad than both, but still a lot more than Grip or Grudge or even Gaddock Teeg.

I agree with Matt Elias...folks will try MM in zoo, and eventually decide that while it CAN be played in it, it SHOULDN'T be. Sideboarding is an art and most matches are reliant on how well you sideboard. Your ultimate goal is to leave your maindeck strategy intact while taking out irrelivant cards for relivant ones. It is simple, but not easy to pick the best ones. The metagame can sometimes be a crapshoot. Path to Exile is fairly useless against CounterTop...but Krosan Grip isn't. Why bring in only 4 counterspells (4 MM) when you KNOW your opponent not only is playing 4 of those, but 4 Force of Will, possibly 4 Daze, maybe a Spell Pierce or 2, and a combo of Top + CB that makes your Mental Missteps useless other than to counter SDT on turn 1? If you plan on doing that...plan on failing, epic failing. If you're zoo vs. junk (bob + tops) then it is just as little impact. Grips are good here, and you already have roughly 14 ways of getting rid of Bob (10 burns roughly and 4 Paths/Swords)? Hell, I wouldn't even side in Grips for this matchup...Pridemages should be sufficient.

In a nutshell: SDT isn't a good spell to attack with MM. If your meta is full of combo, it becomes Mindbreak Trap #5-8 if you think that would work for you in the sideboard. That's probably going to = 4 threats removed (your paths are useless vs combo, so those are a straight up trade). What do you take out? Canonist/Teeg can replace dumb beats by being a hate bear AND attacking. Goes a little better with what zoo wants to accomplish.

[Forbiddian]

I like how people are discussing this card like this:

"Oh, you can ignore Vial."
"Oh, you can ignore Top."

Even if a very explosive Zoo draw *CAN* ignore those key cards, don't forget that those spells are still the best cards against Zoo. If I'm playing Merfolk and facing down an explosive Zoo draw (especially if I'm on the draw), the card I want to see in my hand is Aether Vial. Aether Vial is the only card that gives me a chance (Force of Will could catch me up on Tempo, but the gas loss is very tough to recover from by midgame).

When you lose, it's always going to be because your opponent implemented his gameplan. Don't underestimate deflecting or mitigating your opponent's gameplan when designing a deck or talking about Magic theory.



Timewalk's effect is strong because it allows you to develop your board position by taking an extra turn.
It is EQUIVALENT to say it's strong because it completely and utterly disrupts your opponent for an entire turn, preventing your opponent from implementing his gameplan and giving you more time to win. Even though paying 1U slows your gameplan down, it disrupts your opponent far more. Timewalk could be looked at as a disruption spell.

This is reflected by the original wording of Timewalk, the slightly ambiguous "Opponent loses next turn."


I find it EXTREMELY confusing that forumgoers say things like, "Mental Misstep doesn't speed up your deck" or "Mental Misstep doesn't help implement your gameplan." This is like saying, "Timewalk doesn't speed your deck up. It just disrupts your opponent and ends up slowing you down."

While true, paying 1U to disrupt an entire turn of your opponent's is an amazing deal and aggressive blue decks should take advantage of it. Mental Misstep doesn't erase a full turn, but hopefully people can see that disrupting your opponent is often completely identical to speeding up yourself.

[Koby]

This is reflected by the original wording of Timewalk, the slightly ambiguous "Opponent loses next turn."


EDIT: Ah, I see. Still a stretch for a comparison.

On topic: Mental Misstep is no Time Walk. It gains tempo, sure; but it doesn't draw you a card, untaps your lands, and gains you another attack step. It's a counterspell. Pure and simple. Zoo does not want to play maindeck counterspells.

[conboy31]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Nine

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/cotd/0803

The test card used the "loses next turn".

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

When you lose, it's always going to be because your opponent implemented his gameplan. Don't underestimate deflecting or mitigating your opponent's gameplan when designing a deck or talking about Magic theory.

This is incredibly concise.

[Mr_Miyagi]

Let's take a look at the typical scenario where your opponent aims StP/Bolt at your 1st turn Wild Nacatl.

If the removalspell resolves: You play another dude for G/W/R (skip the attackstep) and call it redundancy, because that's what zoo does so well.

If you Mental Misstep that removalspell: Your Wild Nacatl lives to attack that turn and that's what Zoo is all about. Attacking.

This may look basic and simple and it really is. Mental Misstep for Zoo in this scenario practically reads: Put a Wild Nacatl with Haste into play. This is a great net, without any manainvestment.

Using these kinds of examples for other MM-targets gives us a clearer wiew of MM:s powerlevel. Time to wipe the dust off those glasses?

Back to the important question. Really, why wouldn't Zoo want this?

[SlopeeJ]

Lets take a took at the typical scenario when you opp doesn't bolt your nacatl and misstep is bad. I can list a million other scenarios where it is terrible as well.


Really, why wouldn't Zoo want this?

Same reason it doesn't run any of the other million cards in magic

[Hanni]

<3 how everyone continues to argue back and forth about the card based on theoretical scenarios rather than doing actual proxy playtesting and posting their results.

Much love.

[Forbiddian]

EDIT: Ah, I see. Still a stretch for a comparison.

On topic: Mental Misstep is no Time Walk. It gains tempo, sure; but it doesn't draw you a card, untaps your lands, and gains you another attack step. It's a counterspell. Pure and simple. Zoo does not want to play maindeck counterspells.

Wow, I actually cut out a section of my post explaining that Mental Misstep is not the same as Timewalk. I thought, "Nobody is so retarded that they will POSSIBLY think I'm saying Mental Misstep is the same as Timewalk." Unfortunately, I went broke underestimating the stupidity of the MTG public.


Timewalk and Mental Misstep are different. No shit. I proposed that slowing your opponent down and speeding yourself up are equivalent, and Timewalk is an easily demonstrable way of showing that the two can be equivalent.

I assume that most people think of Timewalk in the vein of "Take an extra turn (this does not affect your opponent's development)," but I pointed out that "Opponent skips his next turn (utterly disrupting your opponent's development for one turn, but not affecting your own)" is exactly the same thing.

Mental Misstep is similar to Timewalk in that it disrupts what your opponent is trying to do, slowing down his ability to implement his gameplan and giving you a developmental edge. It's NOT similar in that Timewalk allows you to take an additional turn. I can't believe I have to say that, but there you go.

[Forbiddian]

<3 how everyone continues to argue back and forth about the card based on theoretical scenarios rather than doing actual proxy playtesting and posting their results.

Much love.

This is because one camp is too stupid even to try playtesting it, thinking that they disproved its efficacy; the other camp has tried playtesting it and is trying to explain their findings.

Incidentally, playtested pre-misstep Zoo against Mental Misstep Merfolk and Zoo went 3-7 in ten game 1s. I think Zoo used to get about a 60-70% game 1. It's not enough games to conclude anything, but as Merfolk I always felt if I was on the play and had either Vial or Misstep, it felt like my opponent mulliganned to 5. I also playtested Zoo with Mental Misstep vs. White Weenie with Mental Misstep. We split the games (4-4 game 1s), but both agreed after that Mental Misstep was the best card in either deck and that winning while your opponent outdrew you on Missteps felt like stealing a victory (I think that only happened once, though I didn't record anything). I've also played a few other random decks, and the power level for decks post-Misstep is quite a bit higher.

But nobody who isn't convinced by theory will believe me or this or anything else. Inc accusations that my testing is flawed, or not enough games, etc. etc. Probably true, but statements like this will highlight how little testing results actually matter in terms of convincing people.


So people in the other camp actually have something specific to test, I predict that Misstep Goblins will beat non-Misstep Zoo in game 1s. Feel free to test any number of games to confirm/deny this claim. Both decks are pretty easy to pilot and the matchup is relatively straightforward, so you shouldn't run into huge problems of player skill.

[danyul]

Could underestimating Mental Misstep be...a Mental Misstep!!??

K. I'm done now.

[LostButSeeking]

Back to the important question. Really, why wouldn't Zoo want this?

Because they don't always have swords to plowshares. Sometimes they have smother, sometimes they have go for the throat, or snuff out and sometimes they have a tarmogoyf to block the wild nactl. You will HAVE to cut something for mental misstep, and the thing that you cut--burn, creatures, or removal--might be useful in more situations than protecting a one drop. I'm not sure either way (since I play Goblins and TES, but not Zoo), but if you look at the way that people from the zoo thread are responding, I'm not so sure that MM is the way to go. I brought this up on the zoo thread, and we had a couple of people from this thread pop over there and rehash their arguments, and the zoo people rejected misstep fairly handily:



Zoo plays 3/3's for G. On turn two, a 3/3 for G doesn't need any support. It doesn't need to worry about getting into the red zone -- you don't need to clear a path, you just swing, if your opponent kills your 3/3, you play another 3/3 and you pass with land untapped. Merfolk, on the other hand, need to tap out for multiple two or three drops to even start to compete with zoo's one-drops. They *need* free early counters to get them to an eventual game state in which their lords steal the momentum. Zoo doesn't give a fuck. It has huge one-drops. It gets face tattoos and smokes cigarettes in front of its parents. Fuck you.

[Richard Cheese]

It's only a matter of time before Zoo bites someone's ear off.

[troopatroop]

Honestly, thinking about magic is much more fun than playing it. There are a million sequences of plays that can happen, and the variance involved in opening 7's makes the game extremely dynamic. Mental Misstep adds a theoretical speed bump to any line of play involving a 1drop, and that's a significant change. It opens up many new possibilies, and forces you to reevaluate every card in your deck. This is exposing for bad players!

Imo, The people that really know legacy, and contemplate over what the format really is, understand the card. Those that don't, Can't.

[Forbiddian]

Playtested some more with Zoo.

I took someone's list and removed four random cards. Mental Misstep is definitely the card I most want to see now, in any draw. I'd run 8 copies if I could. It has ridiculous explosive power. Merfolk not running MM is a joke to MM Zoo. I have a decent combo MU now. It beats up on other Zoo decks. Laughs at Swords to Plowshares.

Definitely this deck could be way better, but it's still a massive improvement over any non-MM version of Zoo.



4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape
1 Loam Lion
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Mental Misstep
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

[troopatroop]

I'll be testing this. It's a re-hash of Steppe Lynx -> Reckless Charge. Counter Swords for 0cc?

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
2 Kird Ape
2 Loam Lion
3 Reckless Charge

4 Mental Misstep
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Fireblast

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
3 Savannah
3 Taiga

It's basically a turn 3 combo deck, with better game against Merfolk and Goblins. Removal + Misstep hurts me. Alot.

[Forbiddian]

Like a quarter of games open with a Misstep war over the turn one drop of the first player. Anything that's vulnerable to Misstep or can't afford to lose the war is an extremely questionable choice.

Keep in mind that while even the worst decks in Legacy with Mental Misstep beat every tier 1 deck easily, you have to be testing Misstep decks against other Misstep decks.

[SlopeeJ]

Keep in mind that while even the worst decks in Legacy with Mental Misstep beat every tier 1 deck easily, you have to be testing Misstep decks against other Misstep decks.

That is going in my sig. It appears misstep zoo and goblins are just going to wreck the format

[ajfennewald]

I'll be testing this. It's a re-hash of Steppe Lynx -> Reckless Charge. Counter Swords for 0cc?

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
2 Kird Ape
2 Loam Lion
3 Reckless Charge

4 Mental Misstep
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Fireblast

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
3 Savannah
3 Taiga

It's basically a turn 3 combo deck, with better game against Merfolk and Goblins. Removal + Misstep hurts me. Alot.
Seems like playing another three fetchlands might be better than 9 duals. Also would path be better as more burn?

[troopatroop]

Seems like playing another three fetchlands might be better than 9 duals. Also would path be better as more burn?

This may be true, but I can't fetch all the duals with different fetches. Also, that would be 15 fetches to 6 lands, and Steppe Lynx really wants a pure white source for turn 1. It makes Stifle + Wasteland a bit worse (Less fetches, More duals), and Misstep protects from Stifle as well.

Path to Exile important against Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Dreadnought, and KoTR. It's nice to have an out to them.

[catmint]

...maybe you want to discuss this in a different thread!

[Forbiddian]

That is going in my sig. It appears misstep zoo and goblins are just going to wreck the format

Not really, at least with Goblins. The 8 best cards in Goblins are all 1 drops. While Misstep can protect your Vial or Lackey from your opponent's one mana answers, every deck just got an extra 4 answers.

Zoo is a strong option, but it has more weaknesses than I thought. Your removal is extremely unreliable, especially against larger creatures that can gum up the board (since Mental Missteps often trade down cheap beaters, cards like Tarmogoyf become even more important). Trading down Missteps is great, but it doesn't happen very often (only ~25% of the time), and a Mental Misstep out of time can trip you up just as badly as you can trip them up. Zoo still probably benefits from Misstep more than anybody else, but Misstep is quite strong AGAINST Zoo as well, so Zoo only moves up slightly on the tier hierarchy (mainly from High Tide becoming complete shit and from combo taking a big hit).

I'm currently playtesting slower-type control decks that sacrifice anti-combo elements for anti-aggro/aggrocontrol elements.

[makochman]

That is going in my sig. It appears misstep zoo and goblins are just going to wreck the format

You are wrong. The best deck will be High Tide because it has 3 Cunning Wish and 4 Merchant Scroll, and therefore it can effectively play 10 copies of Mental Misstep. :wink:

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Not really, at least with Goblins. The 8 best cards in Goblins are all 1 drops. While Misstep can protect your Vial or Lackey from your opponent's one mana answers, every deck just got an extra 4 answers.
That was before MM could protect warchief/piledriver/instigator from removal.

by the way: lackey+MM on the play is nuts :D

[evanmartyr]

I'm wondering whether we should just ignore the fact that Swords/Path are countered by MM, since there's not much reason to play them when you can play Dismember and dodge MM in situations where its target would be really relevant.

[catmint]

A very interesting article on SCG.
No theory. Ari Lax tested MM in several Matchups. Low sample size, but he provides some interesting analysis that sounds reasonable.

Looking forward to hear more results from people who tested it.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21786_The_Mental_Misstep_Matchup_Realistic_Results_For_Realistic_People.html

Zoo vs. Storm:
Mental Misstep was not even close to enough. Hitting a cantrip was much less than a turn of extra time gained, and most of the time, the Storm deck could just win through it with a combination of Cabal Rituals, Lion's Eye Diamonds, and, if necessary, a Duress to check if the way was clear. Almost every game Storm had a line where Misstep was irrelevant.

Goblins vs. Blue
Without a Goblin Lackey or Aether Vial, Goblins had serious issues doing anything in a reasonable time frame.

Overall winners for Ari are Merfolk & Counterbalance.

[Star|Scream]

I'm wondering whether we should just ignore the fact that Swords/Path are countered by MM, since there's not much reason to play them when you can play Dismember and dodge MM in situations where its target would be really relevant.

Dismember costs 4 life

What creature would you need to remove turn 1 that is worth a card and 4 life (at that second?) I think if you are going to stop using stp, you might want to go to 2cmc removal before using -4 life removal.

[ivanpei]

I just finished my first round of testing (with Bant NO and some other decks) and came to a few early conclusions. Mental Misstep is ridiculous in blue decks, period. If you have Force and Brainstrom in your deck, Mental Misstep is an auto 4-off. Having said that, I could see how non-blue decks might choose not to play it. Beyond the first few turns, Mental Misstep becomes a terrible conditional counter. Blue decks have Brainstorm to shuffle Misstep back into the deck or Force to pitch dead missteps. Non-blue do not have that option.

For grinding non-blue decks (midrange etc), mental misstep is not for you (Big Zoo, Junk WG aggro, Goblins). It dilutes your threat density and really sucks to be topdecked late. It is however very very important in non-blue decks that plan to win in the first few turns like Cat Sligh, Infect-Berserk decks etc. Big Zoo will not play misstep, but smaller, faster versions that play price/fireblast/steppe lynx will likely want it. If your deck is "all in" and opening hand dependent, misstep is for you. More testing results to come. Cheers.

Btw I just finished my set of Missteps. I had to scour 2 prerelease sessions with about 50++ players each to track down 1 playset of missteps. I think they were a total of 2 playsets from those 2 prerelease sessions as me and another guy could only find 1 playset each. 8 Missteps cracked from 300 NPH packs (each guy gets 3 NPH + 3 SOM packs)? This is ridiculous!

[lordofthepit]

For grinding non-blue decks (midrange etc), mental misstep is not for you (Big Zoo, Junk WG aggro, Goblins). It dilutes your threat density and really sucks to be topdecked late. It is however very very important in non-blue decks that plan to win in the first few turns like Cat Sligh, Infect-Berserk decks etc. Big Zoo will not play misstep, but smaller, faster versions that play price/fireblast/steppe lynx will likely want it. If your deck is "all in" and opening hand dependent, misstep is for you. More testing results to come. Cheers.

I'm arguing the opposite--that Mental Misstep does not belong in Cat Sligh, but that it might have a home in Big Zoo (but that needs testing and is dependent on how the metagame shapes up)--on the Big Zoo thread in N&D.

[Koby]

Which cards would you propose be cut to make room for Mental Misstep in Cat Sligh? Most aggro lists are very tight with d00ds, reach, and removal. Where does reactive answers fit into this plan?

[ivanpei]

I'd probably cut the 4 worst burn spells in cat sligh for missteps because protecting your T1 Creature ->>> 1 burn spell. If your T1 Drop connects, you are very very far ahead and Misstep gives you that. As for Big Zoo esc decks, you don't really care if your T1 dude is answered or not, you slowly ramp up and overpower them.

[lordofthepit]

27 copies of Mental Misstep in the top 8 of this SCG, 45 in the top 16.

[AngryTroll]

27 copies of Mental Misstep in the top 8 of this SCG, 45 in the top 16.

Top 16 of the Star City Games Orlando Open on 5/15/11 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2011-05-15&end_date=2011-05-15&event_ID=20):

Top 8 / Top 16 numbers
24 / 28 Brainstorm
27 / 51 Force of Will
27 / 45 Mental Misstep
8 / 26 Daze
4 / 5 Spell Pierce ( +6 / + 17 in sideboards )
8 / 8 Spell Snare
3 / 3 Stifle

7 / 13 Blue Decks
1 / 6 Merfolk (makes for some funny Brainstorm numbers relative to Force)

Mental Misstep is awesome.*

*In blue decks. We'd have to see more of the tournament to know how it is in non-blue decks. Did Zoo decks with Misstep do better than Zoo decks without Misstep? We have no way of knowing without more information.

[Rune]

27 copies of Mental Misstep in the top 8 of this SCG, 45 in the top 16.

Basically what was to be expected. All FoW archetypes got a giant boost with MM, while some other archetypes are either much weaker or just dead now, realistically speaking (Goblins, Dredge, Ritual combo, fast Zoo, Lands, Elves and so on). I'm sure I'll get called stupid by all the people who are in some kind of denial mode because they have an emotional attachment to the decks that are heavily affected by MM, but the fact is these decks are all blue's bitches now, if they weren't already.

I hated this dumb card ever since I first laid my eyes on its butt fugly art, because I knew this stuff was gonna happen. I have no idea why this card, that was obviously designed almost solely for Legacy, needed to be printed in the first place. As I see it, it just kills diversity and strengthens archetypes that were already very strong. Also, please don't say this is easily fixed by just maindecking MM in your Gob/Zoo deck, because playing conditional, reactive cards in a nonblue deck is obviously pretty fucking horrible.

Blue FoW decks are my favorites, yet I still hate this card. The more I playtest with it, the more I despise it. In a lot of matchups it's like you got 8 FoWs now. Yes, playing less than 4 Missteps is a clear misstep (HEHE). So far, I found that the card acts as a nice set of training wheels against stuff like Goblins, Dredge and storm. Previously, correct decision making and skill were required to beat these decks, but now you never even have to mulligan! Now you no longer have to debate whether or not you should burn your FoW on the plow that targets your creature. BAM, Misstep! /easymode on

Oh, well. At least a Dredge player made top4 in BoM, so maybe all is not lost YET. Eagerly awaiting to see if he used some sick tech to get there, or if it's just a Merfolk player who wrote Dredge on his decklist sheet for the big lulz.

[ivanpei]

Pretty expected, card owns everything hard. I'm not playing anything without Force and Misstep in the near future. Card is just insane.

[Forbiddian]

Don't just stop at top 8 with your analysis:

45/64 top 16 (2 decks without)
27/32 top 8 (1 deck without)
15/16 top 4
8/8 top 2

[Diprivan]

Oh, well. At least a Dredge player made top4 in BoM, so maybe all is not lost YET. Eagerly awaiting to see if he used some sick tech to get there, or if it's just a Merfolk player who wrote Dredge on his decklist sheet for the big lulz.

I just lol'd. :laugh: Just too cynic.

[ivanpei]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38341

This is the highest placing Merfolk deck that T8ed and it played a 4th Misstep over the 4th Force! Tell me its not true! -_- This guy values Misstep higher than force and placed 6th. I knew it was busted, but cutting a Force before cutting Misstep? Man if that doesn't spell how powerful Misstep is, I don't know what does.

[menace13]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38341

This is the highest placing Merfolk deck that T8ed and it played a 4th Misstep over the 4th Force! Tell me its not true! -_- This guy values Misstep higher than force and placed 6th. I knew it was busted, but cutting a Force before cutting Misstep? Man if that doesn't spell how powerful Misstep is, I don't know what does.
Could be he expected a lot of mirrors(6 in top 16).

[ivanpei]

Even the non blue decks (by non-blue, I mean no Force, no brainstorm) are packing misstep:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/21877_Deck_Tech_UG_Infect_with_Charles_Twitch_Schutt.html

Called it! This deck definitely loves Misstep, fast Zoo lists most probably should be running Misstep too.

[Eksem]

I played with MM for the first time in a small event this weekend. Was a bit tired and "burned out" about Magic in general so I didn't do so well, but this card is fantastic. I mean, I understood it was going to be good and I payed far too much to get a playset so early and I really wanted to have it in a deck, but I was surprised at exactly how good it is.

However, it does more feel like a "must have" card than "I look forward to playing this!" card, so I'm actually not very excited by what this card is going to mean for the format (or rather, my deck and card selection just shrunk to something closer to Vintage-levels with the number of auto-includes for me). When Green Sun's Zenith came, I really wanted to play Magic because I thought the card was so great, but even though I like the power of Mental Misstep, I don't actually look that much forward to playing with it.

It's good though. Very good.

[bruizar]

Even the non blue decks (by non-blue, I mean no Force, no brainstorm) are packing misstep:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/21877_Deck_Tech_UG_Infect_with_Charles_Twitch_Schutt.html

Called it! This deck definitely loves Misstep, fast Zoo lists most probably should be running Misstep too.

If you watched SCGlive, you'd know that that was the only non-blue list that did so. He had sideboard Submerge, Maindeck Daze, Misstep and Blighted Agent for which he would occasionally fetch a tropical island. There were 0 Zoo lists running Misstep. Perhaps it should go into Zoo, perhaps not, but at that tournament, schutt was the only one. He made an incredible missplay.

Glistener Elf -> Invigorate ->Invigorate, berserk (he had 2 more berserks) and walked into a Submerge. (he could block with 2 toughness)

If he only spent 1 Invigorate and perhaps 2 berserks, he would have forced his opponent to break the Submerge as well, but it would give him enough gas to recover from this.

[ddt15]

I don't know what wizards was smoking when they printed this. Seems the new format is you either play a FoW/Misstep deck or something with big spells that avoid Misstep (Metalworker?). Misstep is definetly the end of Goblins, their one drops are so vital; no Vial/Lackey? No Ringleader. No Ringleader... Fail! Goblins used to be very good vs Fish and Landstill now its not even favorable anymore. Surely this can't be good for the format?

[Sims]

I pop my had back in this thread to the interesting SCG results and see nothing but chicken littles. Come on people, it was the first SCG tournament since the card became legal. Give people time to adapt and test.

The card is a huge boost to blue strategies, to be sure, but it's not the deathknell of every other deck in the format.

[Richard Cheese]

I don't think one large tournament is really a good way to draw broad conclusions about the state of the entire format. Were there so many copies of Misstep in the top 16 because it skews the power of certain decks that much, or was it because there's a ton of hype around the card so everyone wanted to try it out, and Merfolk regained some popularity after winning the last open? I don't think there's really a way to tell conclusively at this point.

[(nameless one)]

I know this is out of topic but I think Mental Misstep is the ticket we need to get Land Tax unbanned!

Hurray for bigger cardpool and new toys!

[Mr. Safety]

I have run up against Mental Misstep in playtesting, and TBH, it isn't the 'bane of the format!' or any such nonsense. Is it powerful? YES. Is it overpowered? NO.

Zoo can still fight through MM's like they fought through Force of Will...if you haven't noticed, zoo has been gradually 'curving out' better over the past year anyways with Green Sun's Zenith and playing up to a full set of Knight of the Reliquary and sometimes Terravore.

Mental Misstep punishes sligh decks, sure. But there was ALREADY a plethora of cards that punished sligh decks (Daze, Force, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere) It's just another powerful weapon in a powerful format...get used to it.

The u/g infect deck played Mental Misstep correctly...it was there to protect 'bad' cards like Blight Mamba and Ichorclaw Myr. It was also a combo deck...not really an aggro deck. He was trying to combo into 10 poison counters, not attack from 20-0. Berserk Stompy is already tier 2 (at best) and that has 'good' cards like Silhana Ledgewalker and Slippery Bogle. I don't see this as an argument for MM in aggro decks. I see it as a way to shore up tier 2 decks like Berserk/Infect stompy and give them at least a minor leg-up in power level.

[Hot Soup]

While these results are hardly conclusive as another pointed out early, I think part of the problem is others were no running Mental Misstep. The card is good, even if your not running Blue. Unless your plans to zerg rush your opponents face (Zoo, Burn), you should run these, as Legacy games are those of Tempo and Attrition. Every deck spots plenty of cards with which to use Misstep, and it provides a huge tempo swing, and protects you against these blue decks.

[Gui]

While these results are hardly conclusive as another pointed out early, I think part of the problem is others were no running Mental Misstep. The card is good, even if your not running Blue. Unless your plans to zerg rush your opponents face (Zoo, Burn), you should run these, as Legacy games are those of Tempo and Attrition. Every deck spots plenty of cards with which to use Misstep, and it provides a huge tempo swing, and protects you against these blue decks.

Zerg rushs can use missteps to rush more effectively, imo. I'd use it @Zoo.

So, what is general opinion? Mental Misstep made the top16 like that, or is SCG too biassed and is doing the same they did with SotF, with everyone playing the same deck, so that it puts more results?

Btw, anyone got the deck breakdown from that whole SCG?

[Aggro_zombies]

So, what is general opinion? Mental Misstep made the top16 like that, or is SCG too biassed and is doing the same they did with SotF, with everyone playing the same deck, so that it puts more results?

Btw, anyone got the deck breakdown from that whole SCG?
I think, with everyone orgasming about how Mental Misstep is the bestest card for Legacy ever z0mg 56 card decks, that a large number of people switched to Mental Misstep decks (i.e., various blue decks) for the tournament. As long as ordinary people and various pros continue to ejaculate rainbows over how formatpocalyptic Misstep is, people will overwhelmingly want to play blue-based decks like Merfolk and Landstill (lol) that can use the card effectively (lol @ IBA).

I mean, I looked at that top 8 and wondered where Zoo/the red decks/aggro was. That is the kind of clearly unbalanced top 16 that gets formed when everyone expects something to be good and foils for it disappear as people switch decks. I expect that format diversity will return over the next couple of months as enthusiasm for Misstep cools and people realize that the card, while good, is not all that and a bag of chips.

[dahcmai]

It's fairly obvious that things will just shift a little similar to how Counterbalance made people stop playing tons of 1's and 2 drops. Knight gets better and better. I know I'm happy. All this is making one of my pet decks actually pretty competitive all of a sudden on accident.

At least we can make fun of all the people who paid $40 or more for a foil one.

[Mr. Safety]

It's fairly obvious that things will just shift a little similar to how Counterbalance made people stop playing tons of 1's and 2 drops. Knight gets better and better. I know I'm happy. All this is making one of my pet decks actually pretty competitive all of a sudden on accident.

At least we can make fun of all the people who paid $40 or more for a foil one.

You made my day! I agree wholeheartedly, Knight of the Reliquary (I think that's what you meant by knights...) are getting better and better.

Cheap, dumb beats don't cut it anymore unless incorporated into a properly curved deck. Wild Nacatl is still worth playing because it gives zoo 10-12 quality 1-drops (Lynx, Nacatl, Grims) but Loam Lion/Kird Ape just aren't good enough anymore. Mental Misstep just reinforces that.

I think Mental Misstep will be very similar to Goyf and Wasteland in legacy...it will become a landmark of the format. It won't warp it...it's just another new card that will prove to be powerful enough to compete in an eternal format. Very few cards make that cut...it's nice to see a new one.

[bruizar]

I don't think one large tournament is really a good way to draw broad conclusions about the state of the entire format. Were there so many copies of Misstep in the top 16 because it skews the power of certain decks that much, or was it because there's a ton of hype around the card so everyone wanted to try it out, and Merfolk regained some popularity after winning the last open? I don't think there's really a way to tell conclusively at this point.

Its not just scg, also bom. Card was sold for 10 euro ea ch due to demand

[Gui]

Its not just scg, also bom. Card was sold for 10 euro ea ch due to demand

But BoM had more variety of decks in top 16, more healthy, and quite different from SCG

[lorddotm]

I think this card will go down as a huge mistake. It encourages people to play the type of game that most people enjoy the least. Plus, it cuts off a number of once viable decks (storm and Goblins at the minimum). Pretty much the only decks that gained anything are Blue (aggro-)control decks, everything else suffered. In a format like Legacy, that is not a good thing.

[Tammit67]

I think this card will go down as a huge mistake. It encourages people to play the type of game that most people enjoy the least. Plus, it cuts off a number of once viable decks (storm and Goblins at the minimum). Pretty much the only decks that gained anything are Blue (aggro-)control decks, everything else suffered. In a format like Legacy, that is not a good thing.

What kind of storm are you talking about in particular? Tendrils is still fine, perhaps high tide is in much pain, but I wouldn't say the entire archetype is dead.

[Star|Scream]

What kind of storm are you talking about in particular? Tendrils is still fine, perhaps high tide is in much pain, but I wouldn't say the entire archetype is dead.

He's talking about any storm that doesn't run 4x FOW 4x DAZE 4x MISSTEP

[Admiral_Arzar]

What kind of storm are you talking about in particular? Tendrils is still fine, perhaps high tide is in much pain, but I wouldn't say the entire archetype is dead.

Pretty much all Tendrils archetypes have 439579835 important one-cost cards. Every blue deck functionally having eight force of wills against you is not good.

[(nameless one)]

With this mentality, shouldn't all decks that run non-basic lands be dead by now because because of Wasteland, on top of all the non-basic land hate out there?

Not all decks can run every non-basic land hate out there and though theoretically can, not all decks run Wastelands because it will dilute those decks themselves..

I think the same can be said with Mental Misstep. Yes, theoretically, every deck can run it but would every deck run it?

Besides, the best way to fight Wastelands is to run more Dual Lands. I believe that this should work the same against Mental Misstep.

Besides, Chalice of the Void at one didn't dominate the format. What makes you guys think Mental Misstep would?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Besides, Chalice of the Void at one didn't dominate the format. What makes you guys think Mental Misstep would?

COTV at one doesn't synergize well with the ridiculous blue cards in Legacy, and is generally relegated to fringe decks as a result. MM, on the other hand, fits right into all the pre-existing blue shells, making them stronger without improving other archetypes.

[Koby]

COTV at one doesn't synergize well with the ridiculous blue cards in Legacy, and is generally relegated to fringe decks as a result. MM, on the other hand, fits right into all the pre-existing blue shells, making them stronger without improving other archetypes.

This just in: Mental Misstep good in blue decks, mediocre in others.

News at 11.

[Admiral_Arzar]

This just in: Mental Misstep good in blue decks, mediocre in others.

News at 11.

-snip- I was trying to explain why MM =/= COTV (MM, good in already good blue decks. Chalice, good in fringe meta decks that generally aren't blue), but of course -snip-.

[lorddotm]

What kind of storm are you talking about in particular? Tendrils is still fine, perhaps high tide is in much pain, but I wouldn't say the entire archetype is dead.

Goblins isn't dead per-say, but its blue match up got a shit ton worse. Same with Storm decks. It tilted the match ups about 5-10% in blue's favor which makes it a lot harder, especially since our Merfolk match up was like 60/40, and now it is like 45/55. Thats some swing.


-snip- I was trying to explain why MM =/= COTV (MM, good in already good blue decks. Chalice, good in fringe meta decks that generally aren't blue), but of course -snip-

-snip- he can't help it, so cut him some slack. ;)

[Mr. Safety]

I knew what you were sayin' Admiral Arzar. It can concievably create an imbalance in the current metagame by making anything playing blue STRONGER, while everything else in the format has to adapt to the 'new kid on the block', some decks actually losing enough steam to go 'poof'.

@rukcus: In a nutshell, you mean 'Mental Misstep makes blue decks stronger, and even though it COULD be played in other decks, it shouldn't be.' Am I right in making that statement?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Goblins isn't dead per-say, but its blue match up got a shit ton worse. Same with Storm decks. It tilted the match ups about 5-10% in blue's favor which makes it a lot harder, especially since our Merfolk match up was like 60/40, and now it is like 45/55. Thats some swing.

-snip-, he can't help it, so cut him some slack. ;)

LOL okay.

As for storm, I was going to play TES at GP Providence unless something drastic happened to the meta. Unfortunately, there's no way I'm good enough to play around MM all day long with that deck, so time to find something else to play.

[Tammit67]

Pretty much all Tendrils archetypes have 439579835 important one-cost cards. Every blue deck functionally having eight force of wills against you is not good.

Well no shit, but that's why we run redundant pieces and protection. Sometimes they have the nuts of 3 counterspells and a clock, but they can't have everything all the time. Merfolk is the worst of it, but you can bring in the swarms to make it even again postboard.

The card is very good though, and I lost to two merfolk decks this weekend with TES. Not one of those losses was a direct result of misstep (mainly cursecatcher/daze and wastelands).

[Koby]

@rukcus: In a nutshell, you mean 'Mental Misstep makes blue decks stronger, and even though it COULD be played in other decks, it shouldn't be.' Am I right in making that statement?

Pretty much what I've been saying since about page 1 of this thread. :\

[(nameless one)]

COTV at one doesn't synergize well with the ridiculous blue cards in Legacy, and is generally relegated to fringe decks as a result. MM, on the other hand, fits right into all the pre-existing blue shells, making them stronger without improving other archetypes.

You just proved my point. Since Chalice is colorless, it can theoretically be played in any deck. Would it have synergy with all the decks?

Same thing with MM. It's 'colorless' and it can be played virtually in any deck but would everydeck play it?

[PanderAlexander]

You just proved my point. Since Chalice is colorless, it can theoretically be played in any deck. Would it have synergy with all the decks?

Same thing with MM. It's 'colorless' and it can be played virtually in any deck but would everydeck play it?

Not a good comparison, not everyone runs CotV because it also shuts off your own 1cc as well, no synergy like you said. MM on the otherhand can be incorporated in to any deck with no ill-effects besides card space.

[lorddotm]

@4eak

I'm friend with rukcus in real world life, and I know he doesn't mind me calling him a douche, I have a lot of love for him.

That is why nobody is in trouble. It still doesn't belong in this forum. Save it for Mish-Mash.
-4eak

[menace13]

@4eak

I'm friend with rukcus in real world life, and I know he doesn't mind me calling him a douche, I have a lot of love for him.
I know for a fact the he likes to be called names, he even goes out of his way sometimes to make you do so:tongue:.

MMisstep is simply amazing and it will surpass Daze as the 2nd most played Counter.

[Forbiddian]

I know for a fact the he likes to be called names, he even goes out of his way sometimes to make you do so:tongue:.

MMisstep is simply amazing and it will surpass Daze as the 2nd most played Counter.

I will go out on a limb and say it will surpass Force as the most-played counter. I can see a lot of decks running Misstep and no Force, but I can't see very many decks running Force without Misstep.


I know we should be waiting for new data, but the SCGs data just tossed a couple of rotting, fetid corpses into the "Misstep is good, not great" camp, yet there appear not to be any desertions.

I have two questions:

1) Even if the hype dies down, what will happen? It's the best answer to itself. If you can reasonably expect your opponents are running it, then it increases the need to be running it. If anything, the recent results will increase the necessity to run Mental Misstep, even in non-blue decks.

2) More honest question: What data would it take to convince you that Mental Misstep is great, not good? Certainly the background population out of the tournament was not 7/8ths Mental Misstep decks, so we can conclude that Mental Misstep decks outperformed non-Mental Misstep decks in that event. It can't simply be attributable to hype.

[Gui]

2) More honest question: What data would it take to convince you that Mental Misstep is great, not good? Certainly the background population out of the tournament was not 7/8ths Mental Misstep decks, so we can conclude that Mental Misstep decks outperformed non-Mental Misstep decks in that event. It can't simply be attributable to hype.

Now can't it? I really want to see the deck breakdown from the event... besides, if the best players are playing MM, it will likely outperform non-MM decks, as they would if they were playing somethingelse.dec, cos they are good players.

[Forbiddian]

Now can't it? I really want to see the deck breakdown from the event... besides, if the best players are playing MM, it will likely outperform non-MM decks, as they would if they were playing somethingelse.dec, cos they are good players.

If the best players are playing Mental Misstep, does this not prove my point? There's a reason why they're good players and other people aren't....

To quote

As long as ordinary people and various pros continue to ejaculate rainbows over how formatpocalyptic Misstep is, people will overwhelmingly want to play blue-based decks like Merfolk and Landstill (lol) that can use the card effectively (lol @ IBA)

The real accusation is that average players believe in Mental Misstep, creating hype.

[BooleanLobster]

The pre-NPH Legacy meta was awesome. The previous two Opens each had 13-14 different decks in the Top 16. The two before those had 10-11 each. Look at this beautiful graphic Cabal_chan made of the T8 meta (http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6435/byarch.png). That is by archetype - NO Bant, CB Bant, and Aggro Bant are mashed together.
But this was an awful Top 16. Only six different decks? Six copies of the same deck? 13/16 blue decks?

This meta must be fixed. No more theorycrafting please. We need data.

1) What decks would you expect to beat Merfolk without sucking in general? Zoo? Aggro Loam? Deed-Rock? Elves? D&T / G&T? That Ivory Stompy thing in N&D?

2) Pick one and test the matchup. If you have extra time, test the hopeful candidates against the rest of that Top 16.

3) Report your results, please.

[Michael Keller]

The pre-NPH Legacy meta was awesome. The previous two Opens each had 13-14 different decks in the Top 16. The two before those had 10-11 each. Look at this beautiful graphic Cabal_chan made of the T8 meta (http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/6435/byarch.png). That is by archetype - NO Bant, CB Bant, and Aggro Bant are mashed together.
But this was an awful Top 16. Only six different decks? Six copies of the same deck? 13/16 blue decks?

This meta must be fixed. No more theorycrafting please. We need data.

1) What decks would you expect to beat Merfolk without sucking in general? Zoo? Aggro Loam? Deed-Rock? Elves? D&T / G&T? That Ivory Stompy thing in N&D?

2) Pick one and test the matchup. If you have extra time, test the hopeful candidates against the rest of that Top 16.

3) Report your results, please.

How do you propose fixing a generalized meta when a brand new set saturated with several high-profile Legacy options have burrowed their way into the mainstream?

Only time will determine the amount of playing time these cards will see on a regular basis; theory-crafting is practically irrelevant at this point when you consider the minimal amount of raw data available based on one tournament - which also happened to be one of their lowest turnouts for a Legacy Open in quite some time.

[GradStudentGuy]

Mental Misstep will have an impact on Tempo and Blue decks giving them more options on the draw. I don't think the current Results of the last open should worry anyone about the meta game. People will switch to higher Mana Curve decks with less critical one drops MUD, Rock , 12 Post, Enchantress, ect. Of course the meta will then switch a bit to handle these decks. Eventuality Misstep hype will die down and we will see the same diverse meta that we are more use to. This does not mean that it will be the same meta. The card has changed the format and degree of the change however is yet unknown. I feel there are some decks that will get less competitive because of the card. For instance Merfolk and Goblins match up has changed a bit because of the card.

[Digital Devil]

I don't want to look like a troll, but I noticed a weird thing: Green Sun's Zenith, although worse than Survival of the Fittest, fulfills a similar role. Mental Misstep, although worse than Force of Will, fulfills a similar role. Both original version need another card to work at their best (a creature card for SotF or a blue card for FoW), while the "newer" versions do not. Both Zenith and Misstep made many Eternal players (at least here) open packs at Prerelease and Release Events. Isn't Wizards trying to indirectly push the Eternal formats by banning cards only to see them fixed with a similar reprint? I mean, FoW is a fair card, and I really like Alliances' free spells. I don't know anything about economics, too, so I don't know why Wizards should be doing it: I was thinking, if they released GSZ just after the latest R&D update, can't be the printing of Mental Misstep a signal they're going to ban FoW, thus making MM stronger, while filling the gap with either MM itself or another powerful card which is going to be released, yet?

[Nonex]

Wizards once stated that they design new editions around 18 months ahead of their releases. If that's still true, Green Sun's Zenith was born while Zendikar booster packs were being sold out thanks to the new fetchlands. They couldn't know Vengevine would force them to ban anything.

[Digital Devil]

Wizards once stated that they design new editions around 18 months ahead of their releases. If that's still true, Green Sun's Zenith was born while Zendikar booster packs were being sold out thanks to the new fetchlands. They couldn't know Vengevine would force them to ban anything.
Maybe they decided long time ago to ban tutors and they forced the printing of Iona and Vengevine only to justify that thing. This way they knew they'd have earned money with Iona and Vengevine, but also with GSZ. I mean, I know my theory was kinda weird - I was only asking if someone had my same idea. Luckily, knowing they design sets long before their printing calms me down, because although I don't play FoW, I hope it will always remain legal.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Maybe they decided long time ago to ban tutors and they forced the printing of Iona and Vengevine only to justify that thing. This way they knew they'd have earned money with Iona and Vengevine, but also with GSZ. I mean, I know my theory was kinda weird - I was only asking if someone had my same idea. Luckily, knowing they design sets long before their printing calms me down, because although I don't play FoW, I hope it will always remain legal.

Reprinting FOW (not in standard, but in other box products) will grab them more cash than printing Iona, GSZ and MMS.

[Star|Scream]

Maybe they decided long time ago to ban tutors and they forced the printing of Iona and Vengevine only to justify that thing. This way they knew they'd have earned money with Iona and Vengevine, but also with GSZ. I mean, I know my theory was kinda weird - I was only asking if someone had my same idea. Luckily, knowing they design sets long before their printing calms me down, because although I don't play FoW, I hope it will always remain legal.

Honestly I had a similar idea: Wizards created a less-powerful free counter, that can still (attempt to) counter broken turn 1 plays, but for < $50/each, and then ban FOW. It would drive the entire legacy scene bonkers though, and probably won't happen, but the idea isn't THAT far-fetched.

Either that or they really don't care about Legacy at ALL. I can't think of any other reason for printing this card. Isn't blue (in legacy) powerful enough? Is draw-go landstill really fun to play (with and against?)

[Mr. Safety]

Has anyone said this yet: Mental Misstep is Wizards attempt at re-printing Force of Will...without actually re-printing Force of Will? Honestly, it gives legacy noobies like me a way to compete. I can't afford dropping $200 on a set of Forces (and I think that is probably a conservative estimate...)

[Amon Amarth]

If the best players are playing Mental Misstep, does this not prove my point? There's a reason why they're good players and other people aren't....

To quote


The real accusation is that average players believe in Mental Misstep, creating hype.

Pro players play suboptimal decks all the time, especially in something like Legacy where there isn't time to test everything. Cephalid Breakfast anyone? They win because they are better players. It really doesn't matter what they play.

[4eak]

@ Mr. Safety

That is an interesting argument. Wizards might be trying to do what you say, but regardless, it isn't working. MM makes Force of Will better, and it seems MM belongs in a deck with FoW (and not really without). So, rather than MM being a way to replace FoW in any manner, it simply complements and strengthens FoW, making FoW that much more important to run if you are playing MM. It looks like dropping $200 is still worth it. This might too hasty a conclusion though; clearly MM can be played in non-blue decks, and maybe we've not given deck-builders and the metagame enough time to see what MM can really do and how it will really impact Legacy.


peace,
4eak

[Star|Scream]

Has anyone said this yet: Mental Misstep is Wizards attempt at re-printing Force of Will...without actually re-printing Force of Will? Honestly, it gives legacy noobies like me a way to compete. I can't afford dropping $200 on a set of Forces (and I think that is probably a conservative estimate...)

No, obviously Wizards hasn't said this. It's just baseless speculation.

[Mr. Safety]

@ Mr. Safety

That is an interesting argument. Wizards might be trying to do what you say, but regardless, it isn't working. MM makes Force of Will better, and it seems MM belongs in a deck with FoW (and not really without). So, rather than MM being a way to replace FoW in any manner, it simply complements and strengthens FoW, making FoW that much more important to run if you are playing MM. It looks like dropping $200 is still worth it. This might too hasty a conclusion though; clearly MM can be played in non-blue decks, and maybe we've not given deck-builders and the metagame enough time to see what MM can really do and how it will really impact Legacy.


peace,
4eak

I didn't meant that it wouldn't be a smart investment, it's just DIFFICULT. Family and bill collectors have very strong opinions about how I spend my money, lol.

I look at it this way:

Scenario A:

Buffalo Bill has all the staple cards of legacy (Wastelands, duels, fetches, forces, Goyfs, etc.) He uses Mental Misstep to augment his blue strategies (should he decide to play blue) and it makes his staples go that much further in his deckbuilding goals. He invests about $20 for a playset of Mental Misstep and considers it 'chump change' to making sure he has the cards to compete.

Scenario B:

Noobie Ned has very few staple cards of legacy. Sure he's got the playsets of Daze, Brainstorm, Knight of the Reliquary, Lightning Bolt, and Qasali Pridemage. Ned can't find a reasonable source for Force of Will (and can't afford them even if he could find a source.) Ned invests about $20 for a playset of Mental Misstpe and considers it 'money well spent' because he now has a set of cards that can let him play competitive blue magic without having ALL the other staples.

In a nuthsell: both are spending roughly $20 (or more for noobies that buy sealed product) for Mental Misstep. Buffalo Bill refines his deck and chugs along like normal. Noobie Ned just worked himself into legacy without spending a ton of cash to do so, and has a powerful card that will work well in the format. Wizards says: bingo, win win! Old legacy players are contributing economically and new legacy players are born.

That's kind of my take on it...I'm not sure if folks remember when Thoughtseize came out (essentially the best targeted removal printed.) They still go for roughly $15-20 a piece, and for good reason, it's a powerful effect. BUT, they reprinted Duress, which can be got for around $2. THEN THEY TOPPED IT when they printed Inquizition of Kozilek. BINGO! Win win!!! Old legacy players can now supplement Thoughtseize (or play IoK in lieu of it because they are using Bob). New legacy players can play black magic and be competitive.

I've heard gripes about power creep anywhere from 'extended is a usless format' to 'standard is broken' to 'why not just have one format, legacy.' I don't see power creep as a bad thing...it's creating an environment where New Legacy players can get involved simply by being up-to-speed on the current sets and purchasing a handful of common/uncommon staples and staple lands. It will create (eventually) a schism between the Old Generation and the New Generation of legacy players. The new generation will have decks that compete...they'll just use different cards. This is why I like Mental Misstep so much. I've said it before: very few cards printed in new sets end up making the cut in legacy. Each time one does, it adds more depth to the format.

[Star|Scream]

@ Mr. Safety

That is an interesting argument. Wizards might be trying to do what you say, but regardless, it isn't working. MM makes Force of Will better, and it seems MM belongs in a deck with FoW (and not really without). So, rather than MM being a way to replace FoW in any manner, it simply complements and strengthens FoW, making FoW that much more important to run if you are playing MM. It looks like dropping $200 is still worth it. This might too hasty a conclusion though; clearly MM can be played in non-blue decks, and maybe we've not given deck-builders and the metagame enough time to see what MM can really do and how it will really impact Legacy.


peace,
4eak


I think the 'speculation' would be banning of FOW in response to printing this card, precisely because it makes FOW so much more damned powerful. Hell even counterspell is more powerful now.

Mr. Safety: I would blindly assert that you cannot compete in blue with misstep and NO FOW as long as other people are playing with misstep AND FOW

[Mr. Safety]

I think I didn't explain myself...I see a New and Old generation of legacy players...those noobs like me trying to get in, but don't have the old staples, and the good 'ol boys that do have the old staples. Whether or not you CAN compete is irrelivant...noobs will try. Maybe fail badly, but try. Remember that Mental Messtep also makes Spell Snare, Spell Pierce and Daze, better, too...and those are stand-by Force-answers and powerful spells in the format. You can now concievably play a tempo deck (for the most part) without Force of Will. Hard control? Most likely not.

Just my opinion...I think there is enough interest in the format that eventually, it will just 'run out' of old staples. More and more folks will still try to play it though, and that's where the New Generation idea comes from. I mean, how many times have you played MWS and seen someone trying to take their 'competitive' extended or standard deck and try it against a legacy deck (I've seen it more times than I can count)? They fail miserably, but not from lack of trying, that's for sure...

[(nameless one)]

I think I didn't explain myself...I see a New and Old generation of legacy players...those noobs like me trying to get in, but don't have the old staples, and the good 'ol boys that do have the old staples. Whether or not you CAN compete is irrelivant...noobs will try. Maybe fail badly, but try. Remember that Mental Messtep also makes Spell Snare, Spell Pierce and Daze, better, too...and those are stand-by Force-answers and powerful spells in the format. You can now concievably play a tempo deck (for the most part) without Force of Will. Hard control? Most likely not.

Just my opinion...I think there is enough interest in the format that eventually, it will just 'run out' of old staples. More and more folks will still try to play it though, and that's where the New Generation idea comes from. I mean, how many times have you played MWS and seen someone trying to take their 'competitive' extended or standard deck and try it against a legacy deck (I've seen it more times than I can count)? They fail miserably, but not from lack of trying, that's for sure...

Good examples would be Zoo and MUD. Most of its pieces are less than 5 years old.

I wish there would make more MMesque type of cards. People who are trying to get into the format should be able to play even without the old staples.

[evanmartyr]

I think it's a logical fallacy that we're making here, saying that MMS makes Counterspell, Force of Will, etc better. There are only a few cards that are directly improved by the printing of MMS, and the one that most readily comes to mind is Standstill. You could even argue that Standstill is not made better, but the "strategy" of banking on Standstill to fuel early to mid game development got better, since your opponents became less likely to play a first turn threat.

What MMS does do, however, is increase the critical load of early interaction possible in all decks. The strategies (keyword) that best take advantage of this sort of early interaction are the ones that are most harmed by non-accelerated turn 1 plays, because other than Force of Will they had no convenient answer to a turn 1 threat outside of losing tempo by spending turns searching for removal.

The kinds of decks that want to counter everything you do early on and then do something impressive with the mana development their speed bumps bought them are the ones that benefited the most. Merfolk benefited from it because it allowed it to compete better with combo and other aggro decks that run a high number of 1cc "threats", and it dodged being affected by it too much because most of its threats are above 2cc.

So while it may appear that certain cards are getting "better", I don't think that's accurate; or if it is, it's not relevant. Decks that can't adjust smoothly to an opponent having a better chance of interacting with their 1cc spells will suffer, and decks that can will flourish. Those decks for whom Mental Misstep fills a huge gap in their strategy, shoring up one of their primary weaknesses, will benefit the most. That's the only conclusion I can draw from Orlando.

[Mr. Safety]

Good examples would be Zoo and MUD. Most of its pieces are less than 5 years old.

I wish there would make more MMesque type of cards. People who are trying to get into the format should be able to play even without the old staples.

Agreed...word up.

[Offler]

Good examples would be Zoo and MUD. Most of its pieces are less than 5 years old.

I wish there would make more MMesque type of cards. People who are trying to get into the format should be able to play even without the old staples.

Even other eternal formats have such problem. Its almost impossible to build up a deck (legacy, highlander, EDH, and surely no vintage) from cards printed in last 5 years.

New Phyrexia is bit different in some way. I have seen many goblins and elves following their tribal archetype, but it was rare to find good blue card following example of FOW. Phyrexian mana changed everything.

Losing life with Vapor snag and Psychic Barrier? Well, good old unsummon and Remove soul have grown bit more evil.

Torpor orb is something that affects 851 different cards by now and follows the legacy of Winter orb. Mental Misstep Affect up to 1434 different cards. yeah... something has changed this time and not only in Type 2...

I like that, unless such cards will not plague format. Some cards like Sensei's Divining Top is in most highlander decks even when it makes no direct combo or interaction. Misstep has this potential too (low basic cost, much lower alternate cost which can be considered as colorless).

[Star|Scream]

I think it's a logical fallacy that we're making here, saying that MMS makes Counterspell, Force of Will, etc better. There are only a few cards that are directly improved by the printing of MMS, and the one that most readily comes to mind is Standstill. You could even argue that Standstill is not made better, but the "strategy" of banking on Standstill to fuel early to mid game development got better, since your opponents became less likely to play a first turn threat.

What MMS does do, however, is increase the critical load of early interaction possible in all decks. The strategies (keyword) that best take advantage of this sort of early interaction are the ones that are most harmed by non-accelerated turn 1 plays, because other than Force of Will they had no convenient answer to a turn 1 threat outside of losing tempo by spending turns searching for removal.

The kinds of decks that want to counter everything you do early on and then do something impressive with the mana development their speed bumps bought them are the ones that benefited the most. Merfolk benefited from it because it allowed it to compete better with combo and other aggro decks that run a high number of 1cc "threats", and it dodged being affected by it too much because most of its threats are above 2cc.

So while it may appear that certain cards are getting "better", I don't think that's accurate; or if it is, it's not relevant. Decks that can't adjust smoothly to an opponent having a better chance of interacting with their 1cc spells will suffer, and decks that can will flourish. Those decks for whom Mental Misstep fills a huge gap in their strategy, shoring up one of their primary weaknesses, will benefit the most. That's the only conclusion I can draw from Orlando.

It most certainly does make FOW Better. Previously you had to fow a vial or a lackey. You started the game down 2 cards and 1 life to stop 1 card for 1 mana. That is a terrible rate of return in a game where cards and mana are everything. You didn't want to, but you had to do it or your whole strategy could go out the window. Now you don't have to. You can save it for later (which may or may not even be needed since you have daze after turn 1, spell pierce/snare, and then counterspell.) when you really absolutely have to counter something.

Can we at least agree that Mental Misstep makes other blue counterspells more useful while simultaneously making vial, stp, and other requisite 1 drops less useful?

Bear in mind this wouldn't be so bad if blue wasn't able to also provide a clock (folk) or have an $80 4 mana card draw, fateseal, win-condition to go along with it.

[Koby]

I think it's a logical fallacy that we're making here, saying that MMS makes Counterspell, Force of Will, etc better. There are only a few cards that are directly improved by the printing of MMS, and the one that most readily comes to mind is Standstill. You could even argue that Standstill is not made better, but the "strategy" of banking on Standstill to fuel early to mid game development got better, since your opponents became less likely to play a first turn threat.

What MMS does do, however, is increase the critical load of early interaction possible in all decks. The strategies (keyword) that best take advantage of this sort of early interaction are the ones that are most harmed by non-accelerated turn 1 plays, because other than Force of Will they had no convenient answer to a turn 1 threat outside of losing tempo by spending turns searching for removal.

The kinds of decks that want to counter everything you do early on and then do something impressive with the mana development their speed bumps bought them are the ones that benefited the most. Merfolk benefited from it because it allowed it to compete better with combo and other aggro decks that run a high number of 1cc "threats", and it dodged being affected by it too much because most of its threats are above 2cc.

So while it may appear that certain cards are getting "better", I don't think that's accurate; or if it is, it's not relevant. Decks that can't adjust smoothly to an opponent having a better chance of interacting with their 1cc spells will suffer, and decks that can will flourish. Those decks for whom Mental Misstep fills a huge gap in their strategy, shoring up one of their primary weaknesses, will benefit the most. That's the only conclusion I can draw from Orlando.

I disagree with your assessment regarding MM not effecting the efficacy of other counterspells. It is precisely because MM allows you to counters those 1 drops on the draw without the loss of card advantage that strengthens FOW to counter higher priority cards such as KoTR or Jace. Combining MM with other counterspells allows each to address a varied manacost of spells. An example of this can be seen with GerryT's Landstill. MM frees up Counterspell and FOW that would otherwise need attention from FOW on the first turn of play. It by correlation, makes Spell Snare stronger with the fear from casting 1 drops. In this respect it does make other counterspells more effective.

This could also be applied to decks that don't just counter every spell like Landstill or DrawGo. You mentioned Merfolk, and this also makes Merfolk's Daze and FoW more effective. I use MM alongside FoW and Spell Snare in Bant to essentially perform the same roles as the spell does in Merfolk, and Landstill - give my limited FoW more life by not gutting my hand of blue cards.

[Richard Cheese]

Forcing a T1 Dark Ritual is a tough call. Misstepping one is not.

[Burr]

Is mental misstep considered blue or colorless? MWS shows it as colorless

[Forbiddian]

It is blue.

[cheerios]

With mental misstep legal, is it safe to unban mystical tutor?

[ivanpei]

Do you really want to see reanimator with mystical and missteps? I would be terrified at the thought.

[kiblast]

Forcing a T1 Dark Ritual is a tough call. Misstepping one is not.

+1. Against combo, say ANT, you are always risking when Forcing a Ritual. Because you just have been 2x1'ed. Often I choose not to Force his 1st Ritual, and Force his second one/his second spell, so at least opponents has had his hand raped as ours. Sadly, 99% of the times, the first spell that comes out off a Ritual is Duress. Ding! You just lost the game.
With MM, we have the great advantage of countering his 1st turn Ritual without Hymn to touraching ourselves, and, even better, if we hold MM and Fow in hand, we can just let his first Ritual resolve, Misstep his Duress (or his preemptive Chant if he lead with Petal into Chant), let his second/third mana ramp spell (Petals, Rituals etc..) resolve and then Fow his Adn or Tutor.

A friend of mine, long time and pretty good combo player (Mystical Ant, Tes, Ant again) is trying Missteps even in Ant (in sb I think)...MM is just so good.

[Admiral_Arzar]

With mental misstep legal, is it safe to unban mystical tutor?

I think it is. But only time will tell - I think fast combo as a whole is going to be pushed into the shadows for a while. Also, while ReAnimator with Mystical and Misstep would be good, it would still lose to Misstep Merfolk.

[Mr.Dieth]

I think it is. But only time will tell - I think fast combo as a whole is going to be pushed into the shadows for a while. Also, while ReAnimator with Mystical and Misstep would be good, it would still lose to Misstep Merfolk.

Wrong! I am testing it at the moment .. and even without Mystical it's in favor of reanimator .. Reanimator got a big boost out of NP..

I really Really don't want them to unban mystical .. It's kind of balanced how it is .. maybe they should make aggro strategies better again ( goblins, zoo .. ) But after the dust settles I think even those decks will find ways of battling MM .. ( Chrome mox for goblins for example.. )

[GGoober]

Wrong! I am testing it at the moment .. and even without Mystical it's in favor of reanimator .. Reanimator got a big boost out of NP..

I really Really don't want them to unban mystical .. It's kind of balanced how it is .. maybe they should make aggro strategies better again ( goblins, zoo .. ) But after the dust settles I think even those decks will find ways of battling MM .. ( Chrome mox for goblins for example.. )

Uhm, which spells from NP? Jin Gitaxias? Aggro strategies in Legacy are already fairly strong, it's just a decision to pick the right aggro deck that doesn't lose or get hated out too much by the meta.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Uhm, which spells from NP? Jin Gitaxias? Aggro strategies in Legacy are already fairly strong, it's just a decision to pick the right aggro deck that doesn't lose or get hated out too much by the meta.

LOL, I'm not sure how I feel about that guy :P. No, MM is the only thing ReAnimator got from NP. This Dieth guy is forgetting that Mystical Tutor - powered ReAnimator was actually not favored against Merfolk at the time.

[Shawon]

Notwithstanding the Reanimator-Merfolk matchup, it's still too early to determine if Mystical Tutor is safe to unban, not to mention counting combo out of the meta.