Big Black

[Justin]

This idea came to me after reading the spoiler for Phyrexian Obliterator. Black now has a good number of huge beaters 4cc or less if you also include Abyssal Persecutor and Tombstalker. I thought it would be fun to try a mono-black deck with a high threat density by running 11-12 of these big beaters, who outclass most of the other creatures in the format. Getting to four mana is not too difficult with so many basic swamps and Dark Ritual. The deck most closely resembles The Gate, but that deck generally runs only 4 big beaters and usually plays Bitterblossom, Umezawa's Jitte, and Vampire Nighthawk in the main deck. Big Black ups the land count and uses discard, Dark Confidant, and Go for the Throat in the early game and then starts landing huge beaters. Gatekeeper of Malakir fits with the mon-black theme and can remove huge threats on the opponent's side.

// Lands
4 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
15 [9E] Swamp
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [NPH] Phyrexian Obliterator
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 [MBS] Go for the Throat
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [US] Contamination
SB: 3 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 3 [MOR] Bitterblossom

[Greenpoe]

I think it needs more acceleration, like Jeweled Amulet or Chrome Mox.

[perm]

You're using thoughtseize, tombstalker and dark confidant? Did you forgot how blazing fast this format is? I'd probably cut thoughtseize for duress, and lower your tombstalker count to, uh.... 0... or close to it. Maybe 2 tombstalker, but randomly dying to an 8CC card isn't cool, especially considering you have no SDT.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

I don't agree with 4 Tombstalker either. I run 3 in Eva and I've been thinking about cutting one more.
Maybe Mox Diamond for accel.
No Fetches?
I quit running Thoughtseize. Switched to Inquisition of Kozilek and have been loving it. Anything Inquisition can't take, Cabal Therapy can.

[Sims]

You're using thoughtseize, tombstalker and dark confidant? Did you forgot how blazing fast this format is? I'd probably cut thoughtseize for duress, and lower your tombstalker count to, uh.... 0... or close to it. Maybe 2 tombstalker, but randomly dying to an 8CC card isn't cool, especially considering you have no SDT.

This. Turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 bob, turn 3 flip stalker... did half the work for your opponent, assuming you didn't eat 2-4 creature damage to the face turn 2.

If you insist on running stalkers alongside the neo-gator and percy, then either find room for top to help alleviate bob damage, or drop bob for Phyrexian Arena. Slower, to be sure, but still effective without double fireblasting yourself.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Yeah, you need to cut either Bob or Tombstalker. Otherwise, looks like an interesting idea. Perhaps Mox Diamond could provide additional acceleration, in which case you'd have an excuse to run Crucible + Wasteland.

[perm]

I agree with Chrome Mox, especially considering it can be used with dark rit to get a turn 1 big guy. Thoughtseize isn't really that necessary, it's an overrated card IMO.

[(nameless one)]

I don't want to be that guy but isn't this essentially The Gate with Bob?

Also, Bob with Stalkers, now thats playing with balls!

[tpnp]

Not exactly since The Gate already runs Bob. It's basically The Gate minus Bitterblossom, Jitte, and Wastes while adding in Dark Rit.

[Mystical_Jackass]

If you run Chrome Mox and Chalice of the Void then you could run Phylactery Lich.

[Justin]

I said in the intro that this deck is very similar to The Gate. The difference is that Big Black wants to play more beefy guys, 11-12 instead of only four.

It seems like the biggest criticism of this deck so far is that it has too many "suicide" cards that cause loss of life, specifically Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant. The Gate can overcome this somewhat with Jitte and Nighthawk, card that my initial list does not run. With regard to Confidant, the criticism is that it is too risky to run alongside Tombstalker, unless you are also playing Top. I have played other decks in the past that included both cards. The chances of actually flipping a Tombstalker are quite low and it may not even cost you a game. A more compelling reason to not run Confidant is that there are so many high cc cards in the deck, including Percy and Obliterator. If I cut Confidant, I would prefer to replace it with a 2cc card. I don't know if Phyrexian Arena is a good replacement because of the extra mana, and I'd probably have to add another land.

I don't like the idea of Wasteland is this deck because of the mana requirements. Gatekeeper with kicker is BBB and Obliterator is BBBB. Moxen might be a good idea because they produce black mana and can help accelerate out big guys.

[Tiago_B.]

I'd run less tombstalkers, or cut the Confidants. They just dont work well, and ur not using top. Even if the chances of drawing one are low, it will happen. I agree with mox. Phylactery lich is 5/5 for BBB. You should test it, it seems a good choice. Chalice however does not fit this deck. Maybe you could run artifact lands to up the number of artifacts. Too bad they can be hit by wasteland.

Btw, i agree with you about wasteland. The deck needs too much BBB to run those. Also, more swamps and less bojuka bogs could speed up the deck a little, which is needed in this format, and you already have graveyard hate (Leyline). Probably 2 of would be better, unless you really need graveyard removal.

[Justin]

I'm thinking the Mental Mistep is probably the way to go in terms of a replacement for Confidant. Yes, it's another suicide card, but it costs an opponent their turn one or save one of our guys from StP or other one-cc spot removal. You'll lose less life off of MM than Confidant anyway. This deck may not need card draw, given that it has a high threat density.

[Black Mass]

I think it does need carddraw, you normally run out of gas pretty fast by playing ritual ->big guy, that's 2 cards if I'm not mistaken, plus your threat density starts at 4 really, 8 af them cost 4 mana, gatekeeper you'll only play at 3 and Tombs can cost you a whole lot more, especially without playing fetches (they also reduce the cost of Tombstalker you know).

My guess is that you are depending too much at having a Ritual in your hand. That doesn't allways happen, nor does a hand that can curve every turn to 4 mana. with carddraw (let it be Bob of Arena) let's you dig a little deeper everytime you draw an extra card. Plus having a Persecutor and having to wait 4 turns on a way to get rid of him can be quite frustrating.

Finally I'd pleed for fetches. As said they can help to pay for your stalkers if you decide to pay them and the filter your deck even without the use of top or brainstorm that can come in handy.

[Greenpoe]

Try going from this:
4 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
15 [9E] Swamp
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
To this:
19 swamp
3 Lake of the Dead
That way, you can easily dump a turn 2 big guy, followed by a turn 3 big guy, and keep going as long as your lands permit.

[Justin]

Actually, you would still need a Dark Rit or other mana acceleration to get a turn two fatty. Lake of the Dead requires you to sac a swamp to get it onto the battlefield. Then it requires you to sac another swamp to get to BBBB. So you still won't get a fatty until turn three and will have put two swamps in the graveyard in the process. It doesn't seem good.

[Darkenslight]

Actually, you would still need a Dark Rit or other mana acceleration to get a turn two fatty. Lake of the Dead requires you to sac a swamp to get it onto the battlefield. Then it requires you to sac another swamp to get to BBBB. So you still won't get a fatty until turn three and will have put two swamps in the graveyard in the process. It doesn't seem good.

How useful would Sign in Blood be in the Bob slot? Same CMC, and draws two for 2 life, rather than being variable.

[Richard Cheese]

Ok just a few suggestions here.

First, you can cut Bojuka Bog to a 2-of or drop it altogether really. Black has so much excellent grave hate for the sideboard that you really don't need to worry about screwing up your land drops main deck.

Second, I would replace 2 Go For the Throat's with 2 Edicts (or the new Geth's Verdict), as Emrakul seems to be popping up everywhere lately.

Third, 4x Persecutor is iffy, I'd run 3 at most. He's a guy you probably want to see every game, but in multiples he's bad, especially since you're only running 8 ways to get rid of him.

I don't think running Bob/Stalker is the worst thing in the world, you just want to go the Suicide Black route and try to make sure you can beat down as fast as possible. Maybe throw in a couple Jittes to enable some life gain and pump those tramplers.

[Justin]

I suppose that Vampire Nighthawk is a fair way to gain some life. Perhaps it could replace Tombstalker (which isn't as good without fetches). That would leave 8 fatties (between Persecutor and Obliterator) and allow the deck to more safely run Bob. By the way, Persecutor comes off the board with Go for the Throat, Gatekeeper, or Cabal Therapy.

[Mystical_Jackass]

This is my 2-cents, but I've always liked Tombstalker in Sui builds that I've run over Bob. Besides shrinking Goyf, he's a must deal with threat that puts your opponent on a fast clock and creates CA just by being gigantic. If you ensure every creature you topdeck is a 5/5 beast that's plenty of virtual CA and fits the aggro theme better than Bob or Nighthawk (which isn't as good without Jitte).

[Justin]

I think you are right. You could take my original list and just replace Bob with Mental Mistep (or something else). This way, we've still got 11 fatties and the advantage of having a lot of great top decks. This gives the deck a card quality advantage, which could also lead to card advantage (i.e. opponent using to bolts to kill one fatty).

Some people suggested Moxen to accelerate the deck further. I'm not sure if it is necessary or not. Also not sure whether Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox would be a better fit. Mox Diamond has the advantage of putting a land in the graveyard, thus making it easier to accelerate out a Tombstalker. However, adding it means replacing spells, not lands. So what spells should it replace? Chrome Mox can replace basic swamps, but imprinting a spell on it will usually be worse (in the long run anyway) than losing a land.

[perm]

"shrinking goyf" is the most ridiculous argument... exiling *one* graveyard is an absurdly inefficient way to deal with a vanilla beater

[Justin]

Yeah, and this deck doesn't care much about goyf anyway. The idea is to run a ton of creatures that outclass goyf once on the battlefield, or use removal if that doesn't work.

[Qweerios]

Hello, I would like to share my wisdom on this archetype that I have been playing ever since I began playing Legacy (+- 6 years).

First and foremost, there is absolutely no reason NOT to splash a color in these decks. Tombstalker eats fetchlands, and playing arround stifle isn't the end of the world for what fetches do. If you wish to be competitive, playing monocolored for the sake of having a ''strong'' manabase is irrelevent unless your meta is filled with Blood Moon and Back to Basics, Splashing a color is a must in order to interact with things that your initial color cannot interact with.

Wasteland is perfect for fast disruption + beat decks a la Eva Green/Red Death, not using it because it doesn't add black is beside the point, it makes your disruption much more powerful and can seriously cripple your opponent. Do not count Wasteland as a mana producer but as a free, uncounterable land destruction spell.

As for Percy and Obliterator. I think that Obliterator is much more of a replacement for Percy than a complementing beater. Crowding the deck with 4CC beaters, no matter how strong they are, slows your deck down. I have lost several games because of Percy's drawback and having Percy alone in a deck does not validate the use of Cabal Therapy, the synergy is too weak.

Using Bob with Tombstalker? I personally dislike it. Flipping anything 3+CC cards off bob isn't pleasant and fitting tops in these decks slows them down considerably. The whole point of using numerous 4+ toughness beaters is to invalidate some of your opponents' removal and to avoid trading with their chump blockers as well as putting them on a more threatening clock. Yes bob is a second turn Arena, but bob is not the play you want to make on your second turn unless you expect to equip him with a deadly equipment the following turn much like Deadguy. If you intend on assaulting your opponent with disruption for your first 3 turns (until you can drop an Obliterator or Stalker), Arena offers much better results than Bob.

As far as choosing which splash you should take:
Red offers the most aggressivity, by far, with any form of direct damage.
Green offers you Goyf, Sylvan Library, and Krosan Grip. If it was not for KGrip, I would say Red offers you a better clock and more options.
White is IMO the best splash as it offers you Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, and Tidehollow Sculler.

Maybe your deck strategy varies from mine, but I believe we both want to make the most out of our fatties while cutting our opponents' options.

You can take a look at the Red Gate thread on dev. competitive for an idea of the red splash. For the moment, here is what I intend to use once New Phyrexia comes out:


Creatures (13)
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Tombstalker

Spells (26)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Phyrexian Arena

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
1 Plains


This list used to have 4 Gatekeepers instead of the Scullers when Percy replaced Obliterator. With StP and Vindicate, the Percy removal, land destruction, and creature removal package was pretty packed, and yet, Percy managed to fail me several times in any matchup involving blue... As far as casting Obliterator while the manabase contains a plain and 4 wastelands, it has never been a problem(on MWS).

I hope this helped and good luck with your deck!

[Justin]

You provide some good comments here, but the deck that you list and describe is really Deadguy Ale, not Big Black. You make a case that Deadguy Ale may be a better deck to run than Big Black, but they are two different decks. The point of Big Black is to run a mono-colored deck that is resistant to land destruction and runs a high number of fatties. If you trim the fatties in this deck down, then it's not Big Black anymore. It's something else. It may be that Big Black is not good enough to be a tourney quality deck, but I'd like to find out rather than switching to another deck.

P.S. Your Deadguy Ale deck would be better if you cut Nantuko Shade and Sinkhole and replaced them with Stoneforge Mystic and a toolbox of equipment. And also if you cut your Phyrexian Arenas and Tombstalkers and made room for Dark Confidant.

[Qweerios]

Not all black and white decks are deadguy, in fact:

Deadguy Ale focuses on small and evasive creatures with other abilities (bob, mom, sfm, sculler, avenger, vnh, gatekeeper, hatebears, etc..). They dominate the board through consistent removal, a deadly equipment toolbox, and card advantage. The deck I listed contains white but is far from deadguy. In fact, it doesn't even have deadguy (bob) in it, and relies highly on tempo (Dark Ritual, Sinkhole, Wasteland). This list is much more akin to an eva green or MBA deck that changed the green splash for the white splash (as explained in my previous post). MBA died when Tarmogoyf was printed.

Regardless, I think I understand when you say you want to make a deck with only big creatures. However, 4 dark rituals wont fuel 8-12 4cc+ threats I would begin by adding more mana accelerators. Unfortunately, Legacy contains lots and lots of cheap removal that will break your stride, losing 3 cards to power out an early threat should begin with a next step.

[chocomicos]

What about?


1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Wasteland
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Dark Confidant
4 Abyssal Persecutor
4 [NPH] Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Phylactery Lich
4 Chrome Mox
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 [NPH] Batterskull
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Go for the Throat
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek


It misses some dark ritual.

[Top Deck]

i would run abyssal persecutor with some sac outlets like
cabal therapy
recurring nightmare
grafted wargear

wargear make percy a new two turn clock!
and i would highly recommend running dark ritual in this type of deck.

[Greenpoe]

Sewer Nemesis adds another card for this deck. Perhaps Dark Ritual+a ton of swamps+Lake of the Dead+3 Mox Diamond with Tombstalkers, Obliterators, Sewer Nemeses, and Persecutors, the concept could work.

[Iare]

I love black decks, how about going techy with a small land toolbox + a Beseach the queen in order to dig them up if need be. Seriously just typing this up makes me giddy, this deck multiple card advantage generators, card draw, black disruption, big ass fatties, dark ritual AND a toolbox ... all in 60 cards :)

Creatures- 14
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Tombstalker
3x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Phyrexian Obliterator

Spells- 24
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Go for the Throat
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Sign in blood
1x Beseach the Queen

Lands- 22
4x Black fetches
4x Wasteland
1x Volrath's stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Bojuka Bog
10x Swamp

Edit: The land toolbox adds the ability to add lands and another beseach the queen to the sideboard. I am thinking 2 Bogs 2 Maze of Ith, 2 karakas and 1 Beseach the queen to find them.

[Iare]

I am going to go all pyscho and answer my own post here >.>

I went and ran about 8 games on MWS and I am finding Wasteland really underwhelming. It really didn't do anything but screw me over in every game and really doesn't belong here.

I am thinking the extra 2 lands I posted should become maze of ith and a swamp into another Urborg. It is either this or drop down to 20 lands and throw in the forth therapy and forth Prosecutor. ( Or, two random cards ?)

Random cards:

1 Cabal therapy
1 Thoughtseize

Bitterblossom

Nantuko Shade

Bloodghast

Smother

Night's whisper

Grim Discovery

Vampire Nighthawk

Beseach the queen

Disfigure

Any of these:
Bojuka Bog
Maze of Ith
Karakas (Yeah whatever its random tech :P)


Any thoughts :)

[Addendum]

anyone think making the deck play around trinisphere might be worth considering? seems like out creatures are all 3+ cmc (minus bob but people don't like him with stalker) especially since we can t1 rit into it. this might give time to put out the lands needed to start dropping the big guys. just a thought.

[Justin]

@Addendum: The problem with Trinisphere is casting it. Most decks that run it (such as Dragon Stompy or Stax variants) use Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors to help power it out on turn one. Big Black does not want to run colorless lands because it wants to be able to cast Phyrexian Obliterator and Gatekeeper of Malakir easily. Sure, you can power it out with Dark Ritual, but you need more ways than that. It is unlikely to start with a 3sphere and dark rit in the opening hand.

@Iare: I agree that colorless lands such as Wasteland do not belong here. The only exception is Phyrexian Tower and Volrath's Stronghold as a one-ofs.

I don't like Cabal Therapy in the list that you posted. Therapy works best if you can reliably use it's flashback cost. You only have 14 creatures, and most of them you don't want to sacrifice. Therapy is better if you are running Bitterblossom. That card works better in The Gate than Big Black, because The Gate runs more life gain in the form of Jitte, Nighthawk, etc. Big Black can't fit all that into sixty cards without reducing the fatties, and then you aren't playing Big Black anymore. I get that one of the nice things about Cabal Therapy is that you can use it to get your own Persecutor off the board. However, I would cut Therapies and use that slot for a removal spell that can do the same.

I'm not sure about Beseach the Queen. I don't think a three mana sorcery tutor is really all that great in this format. In most circumstances, you'll have to wait another turn to cast the spell that you are fetching. I'd rather just player more spells that will help me win.

I'm not sure that I like the other random cards you suggested, other than Thoughtseize. Sign in Blood is interesting, however. It sees very little play in Legacy, but it might be OK in a heavy black deck that does not want to run Dark Confidant.