Will Stompy Ever Get There?

[arebennian]

Reading the below by ivanpei got me thinking...


With the printing of Mental Misstep, Chalice Stompy decks will definitely be pretty effective at taking down Misstep Running decks (+ 4 dead cards). Dragon Stompy and Faerie Stompy are all pretty well established decks. I feel that these decks have some consistency issues like all Stompy decks do. If you deal with the lock pieces, the deck ends up being a bad Equipment Stompy deck. There are simply too few game ending/swinging threats in those colours.
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, but I think that Elspeth + Baneslayer >> Gathan Raiders, Rakdos Pit Dragon, Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet. Power Creep has really weakened previously powerful creatures as modern monsters like KOTR, Stalker and Goyf are just plain bigger.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20696-Hatebear-Stompy-Brainstorming


Despite Drew Levin's attempts to promote Stompy decks of all colours about a month ago (and make some more cash for SCG) only one has placed in the top 8 of the SCG open series (and that was a breakout deck: Meandeck MUD).

Are the reasons listed above by ivanpei the real reason Stompy decks are not getting the job done and remain Tier 2-3? And will the unpredictable mana always keep them from hitting top 8s, or will it just require something printed (personally, I doubt that card is Mental Misstep)? Another lock piece or creature perhaps?

[Barook]

Are the reasons listed above by ivanpei the real reason Stompy decks are not getting the job done and remain Tier 2-3? And will the unpredictable mana always keep them from hitting top 8s, or will it just require something printed (personally, I doubt that card is Mental Misstep)? Another lock piece or creature perhaps?
Stompy's main problem is its consistency. You would need to print cards that fit into the theme and increase the consistency.

Otherwise, they'll always stay glass cannons.

[GGoober]

Stompy's main problem is its consistency. You would need to print cards that fit into the theme and increase the consistency.

Otherwise, they'll always stay glass cannons.

This is the reason why Stompy can never be truly successful in bigger tournaments. The whole basis on playing out bombs like Trinisphere/Chalice/Blood Moon before being able to safely beat for the win is the reason that Stompy is successful and failing.

There are 3 big reasons that I have experienced where Stompy fails:
1) Consistency: If lists are too focused on winning on the back of Chalice/Trinisphere/Blood Moon, they can only succeed if these lockpieces resolve. If they don't resolve, you are playing a terrible deck with terrible creatures. If they do resolve, you have to win before your opponents get out of the lock i.e. hit 3 lands under Trinisphere, hit a basic land under Blood Moon (this is one big reason I had when playing Dragon/Green stompy). Both situations are quite easy to get out of these days (Noble Hierarch, Aether Vial, higher basics/fetches, FoW). My honest opinion that Stompy can improve consistency is to be less focused on the bomb approach, and play spells that are actually 'good' (parenthesis because stompy spells aren't technically good without a Stompy manabase i.e. the cards are inherently very cost inefficient unless the Stompy manabase is factored in).

2) Losing to critical spells: What I mean by this is: Stompy is fundamentally a deck that relies on its opening hands. It rarely has filtering and draw, and the biggest part to maintaining good draws is deck design (if you're interested in deck design to reduces dead draws and increasing synergy and consistency, feel free to take a look at Steel stompy because the deck design of Steel stompy is from an entirely different philosophy than other Stompy deck). Irregardless, Stompy decks going second on the draw is terrible for most cases. Your opponents will have a turn advantage to answer the threats you intend to lock them out (Pierce/Snare for turn 1 Chalice). If you kept a hand that folds to one wasteland, you will get wrecked if they do waste you. Stompy loses a lot to a critical answer spell from an opponent, and I feel that most Stompy failures are due to 2 reasons:

- Deck design in being too reliant on one strategy that if answered, the deck completely folds
- Not mulliganing correctly. Not only do you need to consider the strong opening hand you start off, but you also need to consider whether this hand loses if my opponents duress/FoW/Wasteland/Pridemage me etc, which leads to point 3

3) Mulligans in Stompy: mulliganing in Stompy sucks. Firstly, I am now convinced that I cannot keep a hand without a mana acceleration (by Sol-lands and moxens) because if you kept a hand that goes land-go, you deserve to lose. Your entire deck is based on disruption on the first turn, followed by a lot of spells thrown out to capitalize on the tempo. However, mulliganing in Stompy also sucks, because the more you mulligan, the more inconsistent you risk another hand. This is the bane of Stompy: You have to have strong starts/hands, but you have to risk mulligans to getting them. However, I would say that with more aggressive/correct mulligans recently, I've been able to do much better than before (even with 5-6 card hands). I feel that the mulligan issue in Stompy is relieved to some extent if you designed your deck to be less bent on an all-in approach. Once again, if you would like to read more into my take on this issue, Steel Stompy is a good place to check out how the deck was built with its fundamental principles on relieving these issues.

And I'll tell you this: even if MM becomes dominant in Legacy for the next year or so while the meta adapts, it's not going to mean that Stompy is an ideal deck to play. It definitely becomes better since most decks are focused on fighting each other and tending to ignore Stompy, but Stompy's main problems are not really from what an opponent is playing (obviously more 1cmc spells, more duals is better for Stompy to stomp on), but rather, Stompy's main problems come from itself, the deck design, which is associated with opponents playing critical spells that destroy your entire hand/strategy, or the mulligans you suffer from.

And I've read Levine's articles on Stompy that he spanned out in 2 consecutive weeks. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with his articles, but there's always something wrong when someone goes "Stompy is the best deck to play right now, this deck stomps on so many things, it has broken starts with turn 1 blah blah". All these are cool stories that are logically correct, but never once did these articles address the heart of the subject, on why turn 1 plays in Stompy are good, yet is a weakness itself because the entire archetype is too reliant on these plays which it is most susceptible to when answered. I'm a Stompy addict and it was the first deck I started out with 3-4 years back when I got into the format. I took a LONG ass break from it, had to re-evaluate the entire archetype from scratch for over half a year when I got interested in the archetype again. Now, I still face the same old problems, but they're in some ways relieved with a less bomby approach, and an approach focused on constantly building up disruption and pressure.

[mchainmail]

The other thing is most people that play these decks are just terrible, creating an awkward feedback loop of the deck being "bad."

[overpowered]

However, mulliganing in Stompy also sucks, because the more you mulligan, the more inconsistent you risk another hand. This is the bane of Stompy: You have to have strong starts/hands, but you have to risk mulligans to getting them. However, I would say that with more aggressive/correct mulligans recently, I've been able to do much better than before (even with 5-6 card hands). .

I completely agree with the majority of your arguments for/against the stompy archetype. One problem that I find in most stompy/prison builds for decks is that I am constantly trying not to lose rather than proactively winning the game. Capitalizing on tempo gained is harder than it may seem. If your first turn is Ancient Tomb into CoTV, you need to follow that up with a threat, otherwise your gameplan may well be dissolved by a Quasali Pridemage off a GSZ.

The quoted text is one of the biggest issues I have with most people in Legacy. If your deck has a 15% or below chance to win with the 7 cards you've drawn, mulling to 6 or 5 actually can INCREASE your chance to win. (e.g. One land and 6 one drops vs a Chalice aggro deck should be mulled). I'm glad you addressed that issue.

[GGoober]

I completely agree with the majority of your arguments for/against the stompy archetype. One problem that I find in most stompy/prison builds for decks is that I am constantly trying not to lose rather than proactively winning the game. Capitalizing on tempo gained is harder than it may seem. If your first turn is Ancient Tomb into CoTV, you need to follow that up with a threat, otherwise your gameplan may well be dissolved by a Quasali Pridemage off a GSZ.

Exactly this. This is also a reason why I feel Stax is an even worse deck than Stompy. Nothing's wrong with the Stax archetype, but in Legacy, where bulk of your opponents are applying threats in the form of creatures, Stax/Prison strategies are not as simple as Sphere effects. In Vintage, 1-2 spheres can shut your opponents down, but in Legacy, if they sneaked a Goyf in and you have 10 spheres, you're still going to lose. This is why Stax is a weaker archetype in Legacy than it is in Vintage (putting Workshops and other cards aside). It's also a reason why I tend to build my Stompy decks towards more aggression than prison. Because you want to be able to always follow up with a threat rather than sit back and draw them while giving your opponents time to get out of the lock. Don't forget that your opponents are playing 'better' cards (i.e. cost-efficient cards that are universally good in the format), and will be able to break out of the temporal lock you created.

It's also this reason where I've come to love Lodestone Golem in Stompy decks, however, not many Stompy decks can afford golem because they are running Chrome Moxes. It's a BIG beater that has a little disruption effect on it. If you're going first and drop a turn 2 Golem, you will be creating tempo from the Sphere effect and the huge body. If they did remove it, then you've bought a removal spell and a turn (a little better than a 1-1), if they can't remove it (no removal or Chalice in play, then you're going to ride the Golem to a quick victory). Steel Stompy and Meandeck MUD are two decks that can play golem comfortably, while play Wastelands at the same time to try to maintain sustained locks. If you're looking to be on the aggression rather than always be on the defensive in a Stompy deck, you need to play aggressive cards. Stompy will fail as an archetype if you're focusing more on locks rather than beating down, for the same reason why stax loses in games where it seems to have sustained a lock but not long enough.


The quoted text is one of the biggest issues I have with most people in Legacy. If your deck has a 15% or below chance to win with the 7 cards you've drawn, mulling to 6 or 5 actually can INCREASE your chance to win. (e.g. One land and 6 one drops vs a Chalice aggro deck should be mulled). I'm glad you addressed that issue.

Mulliganing always sucks in Legacy, but what sucks more is looking at a weak 5,6,7-card hand that plays like Standard/Extended. Always ship a weak hand, and this is even more important in Stompy-ish deck. You cannot afford to give your opponents tempo and play out spells that wreck you.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Really, Stompy just needs a good colorless source of card draw so as to make topdecking less of a bitch.

Also, I'm very tempted to try out Serum Powder. >_>

EDIT: You know, I'm thinking if we want to keep Stompy explosive but at the same time be consistent, then the only color that seems feasible to run is green since it has both mana accel and permanent card draw in the form of Sylvan library. Otherwise, yeah, the Steel Stompy route seems to be a bit more reasonable.

[Rico Suave]

The problem with Stompy is that its mana curve starts at 2 and not 1, yet its means of accelerating into 2 are unreliable at best.

[LostButSeeking]

Really, Stompy just needs a good colorless source of card draw so as to make topdecking less of a bitch.

Tezzeret's Gamble reads:
3::p:
Sorcery
Draw two cards, and then proliferate.

I was REALLY hoping for a draw two for :2::p:, but we can't get everything we want. As it is I don't think this is going to do it, but I thought it was worse pointing out. Nor is sorcerer's strongbox. *sigh*. My first legacy deck was dragon stompy and I loved it. Horrible deck, but I loved it anyway.

[Koby]

Is this a Legacy hand, or a Standard hand?

That applies to any deck in the format. Just like my 5 land hand in Elves was garbage, and needed to be mulligan'd.

[menace13]

Rico stated the major problem, Stompy would get somewhere IF it had Shops.

[Meekrab]

Also, I'm very tempted to try out Serum Powder. >_>
Don't do this. You never really want to keep a hand with it, so almost all of the time you open it you HAVE to use it, even if the other six cards are pretty good. What's the point?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The things you lose by running a Chalice-centered deck are less than you gain. 1 is an important stop along the mana curve, but it's just one stop, and there's just a ton of cards that see constant play in Legacy (Pridemage, Vial, Cunning Wish amongst others) that just completely fuck up your day.

There may be a deck out there for Magus of the Moon, but I think Chalice has seen its heyday as a central card (although it's still a fine sideboard in certain decks; got absolutely wrecked by Merfolk boarding in Chalices last weekend.)

[(nameless one)]

What about MUD Stompy, that deck has a lot of potential. For an inconsistent list to make top 8 (let alone come 2nd). Its unfortunate that it did die on the finals by its bad mulligans.

Tezzeret's Gambit seems like the draw the deck needs, though theres already Thirst for Knowledge for that (though it does require the deck to splash blue). I have been tinkering with the deck. My version runs red (for Goblin Welder) and blue (for Fabricate).

So far, I have been happy with the list, though it does die to a lot of things. At least Dredge can still put up results even when faced with hate, this deck needs something (like a card advantage machine). Maybe Scrying Sheets and Snow Lands? (That was a joke)

[kusumoto]

I think what we need is another card a la Lodestone Golem. Something that is a lockpiece and a threat. That would be plenty for mono brown stompy to be fine. Consistency isn't an issue in colorless stompy/stax as much as the ability to lock them out and beat at the same time.

[socialite]

I've been having a lot of success with an updated build of Faerie Stompy (one of the better Stompy builds IMHO).

One of the biggest issues I had with the deck was the inability to actually keep a fast clock and offsetting the damage caused by Ancient Tomb and Serendib Efreet. We always needed something between Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of Light and Shadow.

Sword of War and Peace solves this issue and turns every 1CC card trapped in the opponents hand into damage. In addition it, arguably, provides two of the best protection colors in Legacy.

Phyrexian Revoker solves a lot of one drops like Divining Top and Aether Vial that could be dropped on the play before you could drop Chalice as well as Pridemage which in my experience has been straight up obnoxious against Stompy builds. Revoker hits an obscene amount of cards in Legacy as well which is a huge plus while getting around Chalice of the Void unlike Pithing Needle. Body for equipment too!

For what it's worth my list for those looking to experiment with Stompy builds:

4 Mulldrifter
4 Pestermite
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Sea Drake
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Sword of War and Peace
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Island

Edit: Also don't actually spend time reading the Faerie Stompy thread (excluding the OP) as it's complete trash. One reason why this deck hasn't gotten there is because no one half decent actually takes it to events.

[(nameless one)]

I think what we need is another card a la Lodestone Golem. Something that is a lockpiece and a threat. That would be plenty for mono brown stompy to be fine. Consistency isn't an issue in colorless stompy/stax as much as the ability to lock them out and beat at the same time.

Wouldn't Sundering Titan fall under that category?

[Zork]

Sundering Titan is, but he also costs 8. MUD Stompy aside, few of these decks reliably get 8 mana.

Moreso than another piece of disruption or another broken threat, I feel stompy decks need more consistent manabases to really excel. Better Sol lands would be start, perhaps something like:

MUDy Sol
Land
T: Add 2. This mana can only be used to play colorless cards.

or

Sometimes Sol
T: Add 2. Play this ability only if this is the only land you control.
T: Add 1.

[Octopusman]

I have high hopes for Dragon Stompy. I'm waiting for it to function better without equipment or two drops. I think it will be better once the best version isn't a Hellbent version although some of the best beaters are the Hellbent ones (Gathan Raiders and Rakdos Pit-Dragon win games). It may take a while.

I would argue that Trinisphere has declined in effectiveness more than Chalice of the Void.

I'm desperate for a 2R card advantage+threat in one card or a better disruption creature. I may run Revoker for some of the reasons Ertai's Familiar mentioned but again, the only two drop I really want is Chalice for 1. I would love a sweeper+threat as I'm tired of relying on ratchet bomb(used to be powder keg) and, again, I don't like 2 drops in stompy.

Imo, the Moon Effects and Chalice are so strong with Dragon Stompy will be around for a while as a metagame deck. Aside from Goblins and Merfolk, I feel that the metagame is becoming more stompy friendly because people are starting to get more optimistic about their complex manabases again (I'm going to dust off my Stifles in other news).

Truth be told, it's only a matter of time before wizards accidentally prints some overpowered lock piece or creature card that is fantastic in Dragon Stompy. When this happens, people are going to be mad they didn't pick up their Ancient Tombs or City of Traitors when they were "cheap" (although City has been rising steadily for a while). All in all, it's still a pretty budget deck.

What's great about Dragon Stompy imo is its ability to just stumble into huge blowouts. I would argue that Magic is fun largely due to one's need to make a deck that can perform well against as many strategies as possible. Keeping things like moon and chalice effects in mind when designing decks is good for the format. It's still possible for a Dragon Stompy player to just get lucky and paired with decks who fold when their lands become mountains all day.

Stompy is a swingy, inconsistent, archetype (maybe MUD is changing this) and these kinds of decks appeal to certain kinds of people. Some would argue that this is why it will never be tier 1. They are probably right, but out of barely passable strategies, the archetype is likely one that can become a major contender if the right cards are printed. Stompy needs a card that just happens to fall into the theme like others have mentioned.

Who knows. It's fun to talk about though. I love stompy.

[ivanpei]

1) Consistency: If lists are too focused on winning on the back of Chalice/Trinisphere/Blood Moon, they can only succeed if these lockpieces resolve. If they don't resolve, you are playing a terrible deck with terrible creatures. If they do resolve, you have to win before your opponents get out of the lock i.e. hit 3 lands under Trinisphere, hit a basic land under Blood Moon (this is one big reason I had when playing Dragon/Green stompy). Both situations are quite easy to get out of these days (Noble Hierarch, Aether Vial, higher basics/fetches, FoW). My honest opinion that Stompy can improve consistency is to be less focused on the bomb approach, and play spells that are actually 'good' (parenthesis because stompy spells aren't technically good without a Stompy manabase i.e. the cards are inherently very cost inefficient unless the Stompy manabase is factored in).



I feel that this is the fundamental problem with Stompy decks. If your lock pieces are stopped/circumvented, you end up playing bad cards.deck. I mean who would play Gathan Raiders/Serendib/Sea Drake outside a stompy deck? That's why I'm putting alot of emphasis on a white based stompy deck. This is because White gives you alot of GOOD cards to play that you would still play without a stompy manabase:

Phyrexian Revoker (Obvious)
Porcelain Legionnaire (Would you play a 2 mana 3/1 First Striker? This card is deceptively good as it holds back kitties, folk and goblins + can be cast on T1 and insane with Equip)
Stoneforge Mystic
Oblivion Ring
Aven Mindcensor (WG decks still play this without stompy lands)
Elspeth
Baneslayer Angel (Rubin Zoo played this in extended)

All the above are perfectly playable outside of stompy decks and their power level matches their casting costs. Add Chalice and you have a pretty good stompy deck IMO. Here's what I posted on the Angel Stompy thread:

4 Revoker
4 Chalice
4 Legionnaire
4 Stoneforge
4 Mindcensor
4 Oring
1 Sofi
1 Jitte
2 Elspeth
3 Slayer
1 Batterskull

4 Mox Diamond
12 Plains
4 Waste
4 Tomb
4 City

Compare these cards to:
Gathan Raiders
Rakdos Pitdragon
Arc Slogger
Serendib Efreet
Cloud of Faeries
Pestermite
Sea Drake
Mulldrifter

Yeap, that's what I thought, I wouldn't play those either. Ideally white needs a "spirit guide" to be even more effective, but I can live with the recent goodies stompy has been given.

[Skeggi]

Faerie Stompy needs good new unfair creatures to become competitive again. Its strongest creatures are a 4/3 flying for 2U and a 3/4 flying for 2U, both with a drawback. They used to be undercosted unfair creatures to run, nowadays they're not undercosted anymore. The power creep of the other creatures is in my opinion the main reason why Faerie Stompy isn't a good enough deck anymore.


One of the biggest issues I had with the deck was the inability to actually keep a fast clock and offsetting the damage caused by Ancient Tomb and Serendib Efreet. We always needed something between Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of Light and Shadow.

Sword of War and Peace solves this issue and turns every 1CC card trapped in the opponents hand into damage. In addition it, arguably, provides two of the best protection colors in Legacy.

Phyrexian Revoker solves a lot of one drops like Divining Top and Aether Vial that could be dropped on the play before you could drop Chalice as well as Pridemage which in my experience has been straight up obnoxious against Stompy builds. Revoker hits an obscene amount of cards in Legacy as well which is a huge plus while getting around Chalice of the Void unlike Pithing Needle. Body for equipment too!
I reckognize the mentioned problems and I like the sollution. I'm certainly going to try it.

[Mana Drain]

MUD-Stompy and Moon Stompy are both viable decks at this point in time, but both suffer from serious consistency issues and both have a large amount of terrible matchups (Tribal, Zoo, Affinity, etc.).

I think Aggro-MUD/MUD-Stacker is 2 mana-sources short of being a viable deck. Currently we just don't have enough workable Sol-lands to consistently power out artifacts. Examples:

Mishra's Toolshed - Land-

Tap: Add 2 to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast artifact spells or play artifact abilities.
--------------------

Mox Crystal - Artifact - 0

Tap: Add 1 to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast artifact spells and play artifact abilities.

[Maveric78f]

White Stompy list.

I believe your legionnaires are the porcelaine legionnaires, but I'm not definitely sure. Well that's not bad. What I don't like if your list is Baneslayer. It's not even that good if it strikes once or twice. Apart from that I like the list and I want to try it a bit.

I'd like to recall that there exists a black stompy list that is quite controlish and that I tested extensively one year ago or so and I tried a bit (but not seriously) 1 or 2 weeks ago. I called it Imp Stompy and the addition of Revokers was a real benediction since it provided a good answer to deed, Qasali and opposing mana acceleration (noble first in line).

// Lands 18
4 Ancient Tomb
12 Swamp
2 City of Traitors

// Creatures 20
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Revoker
3 Shriekmaw
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Twisted Abomination

// Spells 23
4 Chalice of the Void
2/3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chrome Mox
4 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Bitterblossom
3/4 Trinisphere

// Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cranial Extraction
7 TBD

The deck hurts itself a lot and that's the main justification for SoLaS as the main equipment of the deck. Almost all creatures in the deck have evasion and almost all creatures will take another creature to the grave. Stinkweed Imp and Bitterblossom are two flying equipment carriers that are very difficult to get rid of. The opponent has for only solution to play tempo, when he can.

As any Stompy deck it has auto-win hands : turn 1 trinisphere and turn 2/3 Braids is the nuts. Even better when you can place Bitterblossom by the meantime, but remember that Braids is a beater and Stinkweed Imp can be played and sacced every turn.

[(nameless one)]

MUD-Stompy and Moon Stompy are both viable decks at this point in time, but both suffer from serious consistency issues and both have a large amount of terrible matchups (Tribal, Zoo, Affinity, etc.).

I think Aggro-MUD/MUD-Stacker is 2 mana-sources short of being a viable deck. Currently we just don't have enough workable Sol-lands to consistently power out artifacts. Examples:

Mishra's Toolshed - Land-

Tap: Add 2 to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast artifact spells or play artifact abilities.
--------------------

Mox Crystal - Artifact - 0

Tap: Add 1 to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast artifact spells and play artifact abilities.

Outside of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors, there's also Crystal Veins that can work as a Sol Land.

[Gheizen64]

Outside of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors, there's also Crystal Veins that can work as a Sol Land.

Vein sucks pretty hard. If it was counter-based (a-la tendo ice-bridge) it would pretty good, but like it is it's just bad. I'd even play the depletion land before it.

It's sad that RoE could have easily printed a 2 mana land for colorless spell (not just artifact), but it didn't. And if we didn't see such a land neither in RoE neither in the new mirrodin block, i'd guess we'll never see it.

[sephorusFR]

what happened to this angel based stompy playing Linvala, the white muse and other creature based disruption piece ?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Truth be told, it's only a matter of time before wizards accidentally prints some overpowered lock piece or creature card that is fantastic in Dragon Stompy. When this happens, people are going to be mad they didn't pick up their Ancient Tombs or City of Traitors when they were "cheap" (although City has been rising steadily for a while). All in all, it's still a pretty budget deck.



I actually hope for a playable Planeswalker with a stompy manacost!

PWs tend to fill multiple roles (Jace...) so the deck will get somewhat more flexible/consistent.
Plus a turn 1 PW is awesome!

[kiblast]

I actually hope for a playable Planeswalker with a stompy manacost!

PWs tend to fill multiple roles (Jace...) so the deck will get somewhat more flexible/consistent.
Plus a turn 1 PW is awesome!

Both Jace and Elspeth have pretty stompy-friendly mana costs ( 2UU and 2WW). Obviously the best stompy cc is 2X, but I highly doubt we'll have a fairly good Planeswalker at this cost soon in the future. A 3cc PW with only one coloured mana is heavily splashable everywhere, thus it needs not to be too good for its cost. Jace1.0 is by far the best PW you can hope to cast for 3cc, but his mana cost is pretty awful for a stompy manabase, because when you have 1UU ready, you are probably tapping a Sol land for that colorless mana and you could be casting JTMS.

I'd like to see a Planeswalker with Phyrexian mana in his mana cost, maybe, 2PP. That would be very good for Stompy.

EDIT: I agree that the best new tool for Stompy right now is Revoker. 1st turn answer to ALL the 1cc problems you have when on the draw, or when you didn't set a turn 1 CotV. Pretty amazing.

[Hanni]

We've had this discussion before. The biggest consistency issue doesn't have to do with Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere, it has to do with the manabase. Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Mox Diamond, and Chrome Mox are excellent mana accelerants that are terribly inconsistent.

Unban Mishra's Workshop and I gauruntee that Stompy decks instantly become consistent Tier 1 decks. However, I don't want a format with overpowered Stompy decks that can consistently power out turn 1 Metalworkers, Trinispheres, Lodestone Golems, etc, so it's a good thing that they will never unban it.

Also, as far as power creep goes, I think Lodestone Golem and Master of Etherium are just fine in that department, and Faerie Mechanist improves consistency in the midgame. They also just printed three really good creatures for mono brown (Steel Hellkite, Wurmcoil Engine, and Kuldotha Forgemaster).

[Maveric78f]

Hanni >> Stompy is definitely not necessarily artifact based. Master of Etherium is really meh, not that much stronger than Goyf, weaker than Knight, relies on a theme that is easily hateable and more importantly it's just a vanilla creature. Goyf and Nacatl are the only playable vanilla creature currently.

The 3 new-printed good creatures are good indeed, but they are all 5 or 6CC. You can't rely on resolving such high CCs in an aggro-control deck, even with 2-mana lands. And once again it's too much artifact based and hateable.

I believe more in utility creatures carrying equipments in Stompy decks (either white or black).

Ps : about the brown planeswalker, it could be played %5 or %4+1 coloured mana and be as good as Tezzeret#2 or Elspeth.

[Infinitium]

Mmmm.. MoE is arguably the most broken lord ever printed and can easily overpower Knight in the early-midgame.

Anyhow whilst blue-splash MUD-Stompy (for MoE exclusively) is pretty consistent and indeed a beating once its bombs starts to resolve, it still suffers from being easily hateable and the fact that it just cannot fight its way back into an unfavorable board position due to a lack of removal and the fragile manabase (try racing someone whilst depending on resolving one spell per turn and hurting yourself with Ancient Tomb).

[NecroYawgmoth]

yup... permanent Artifact-hate like Energy Flux is way to hard for this deck. The same is true for all other Stompy decks that revolve on more than 12-16 Artifacts than Mox / Chalice / Revoker and maybe 2-4 Equipments [like RW Moon for Example]

That said, I can only see W R or G Chalice Aggro being viable [besides Steel Stompy which scraps 100% to hard artifact hate] , because W hast the best creatures, R has the hardest screwpieces, and G has randombroken stuff like GSZ on whatever or NOProg.

[jancz]

Has anyone considered demon stompy?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=4325&iddeck=29745

I like Abyssal Persecutor with the ability to kill it in multiple ways.

I also like the leyline of the void, Helm of obedience combo in the sideboard. Gives a nice out vs dredge. I like the use of Shriekmaw and Fleshbag to have a controlish element as well as Graveborn muse for some card advantage. Bane of the Living is probably insane vs Folk and other tribal stuff.

Dunno about Negator though.

[evanmartyr]

I'm desperate for a 2R card advantage+threat in one card or a better disruption creature. I may run Revoker for some of the reasons Ertai's Familiar mentioned but again, the only two drop I really want is Chalice for 1. I would love a sweeper+threat as I'm tired of relying on ratchet bomb(used to be powder keg) and, again, I don't like 2 drops in stompy.

If Fire Imp could hit players it'd be an auto-include. wtb :(


Imo, the Moon Effects and Chalice are so strong with Dragon Stompy will be around for a while as a metagame deck. Aside from Goblins and Merfolk, I feel that the metagame is becoming more stompy friendly because people are starting to get more optimistic about their complex manabases again (I'm going to dust off my Stifles in other news).

Ugh. This is the sort of thinking that keeps the stompy variants bad. "Hey, Stifle has marginally more targets! That means Moon effects are back breaking, right?"

No. It does not mean that. It means Stifle has marginally more targets. I would argue that part of the reason Faerie Stompy *has* been successful (in some hands, at least) is because it ditches this terrible game plan of "Accelerate out lock pieces! Yeah! Red Stasis!" and just plays mediocre creatures, most of which fly, that suit up with powerful equipment and smack your opponent in the face while consistently dropping Chalice of the Void to disrupt most of the best removal that, against decks NOT running Chalice, would easily overwhelm your creatures.

Sol-land "Stompy" decks tend to:
+1: Avoid the Mental Misstep minigame.
+1: Punish decks that rely on 1cc cards.
-1: Have built-in redundancy that rapidly becomes excessive.
-1: Rely on a metagame with few basics.
-1: Die to better creatures.
-1: Be inconsistent (don't argue with me. What other deck has people considering running Serum Powder?)

So of these, Faerie Stompy hits the first two, and possibly the last (it's manabase isn't the most solid thing in the world). Red-based stompy hits all of them. Green-based stompy has hardly been exhaustively explored, white has an even shakier (or one-dimensional, depending on your draws) gameplan, and black is...I dunno that I've ever seen a black stompy deck, because why run Sol lands when you can just run swamps and Thoughtseize?

Blech.

TL;DR: Chalice is good, the rest is not bad but inconsistent and overly redundant. Stop trying to play Trinisphere without Workshop.

[Maveric78f]

Has anyone considered demon stompy?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=4325&iddeck=29745

I like Abyssal Persecutor with the ability to kill it in multiple ways.

I also like the leyline of the void, Helm of obedience combo in the sideboard. Gives a nice out vs dredge. I like the use of Shriekmaw and Fleshbag to have a controlish element as well as Graveborn muse for some card advantage. Bane of the Living is probably insane vs Folk and other tribal stuff.

Dunno about Negator though.

I played a lot this kind of deck a while ago. And it appeared to me that:
- Graveborn too expensive, fragile and painful for an effect that is not immediate. As a comparison, Braids is CA as soon as your opponent is full tapped. Also, it's more synergic wit trinisphere.
- Helm/Leyline combo : I tried to play it but it's really too random in a deck that plays no library manipulation.
- Bane of the Living : it requires 7 manas to be used and once more it's fragile (because you rarely have those 7 manas to spend them in the same turn. If you had them, you'd better play Tsabo's Decree

This is my reflexion about Demon Stompy that led me to play the controllish black stompy I posted upper.

[rupus]

I'm a sucker for stompy decks but unfortunately I don't have anything productive to add here. I really just wanted to point out that Djinn at Magic-League did well with a Faerie Stompy deck a while back. http://magic-league.com/deck/69088/faerie_stompy.html#Faerie%20Stompy26

[ivanpei]

The only chalice deck that works for me so far is green mud (sylvan library md, chokes and seal of primordium sb) it's stable with 20 lands, lots of big bombs and has no 1 drops (I don't run keys). The deck rips apart misstep decks because of threat density. The following atr must answer I win cards:

Metalworker
Kudoltha forgemaster
Sylvan library (this card is insane, totally worth splashing for)
Wurmcoil engine
Sundering Titan
Myr battlesphere

With the following back up cards that throw wrenches into the opponents game plan:

Chalice of the void
Spellskite (card is really good, I run 3 md)
Lodestone golem

It simply exaust the opponents counters/answers and then runs right over then. The same cannot be said about stompy decks, scars did not give stompy enough good stuff while Mud got a million goodies. Pm me if Anyone wants my list. You can find it on the mud discussion thread in format and article discussion too.

[bowvamp]

Honestly, Stompy will NOT get there. Mental Misstep didn't serve to make it stronger, it just gave every deck an opportunity to be "a little bit stompy". Stopping your opponent from playing mental misstep by playing a 2cc card that stops one drops AND not playing one drops is not what I'd call a competitive advantage. With that said, I think that there is at least one way to go with stompy that doesn't completely suck with dullness (not saying it's good). Meet Annex Stompy:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
6 Plains

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Armageddon
2 Survival Cache

4 Stonecloaker
4 Glowrider
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Exalted Angel
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Accorder Paladin
//should probably be something with cc > 2 but whatever

[overseer1234]

Well, Ive been running this lately with some succes:


1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa’s Jitte

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere

4x Aven Mindcensor
3x Baneslayer Angel
4x Exalted Angel
4x Glowrider
4x Stoneforge Mystic

4x Oblivion Ring

4x Chrome Mox
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Flagstones of Trokair
10x Plains
//Sideboard

4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Windborn Muse
3x Journey to Nowhere
4x Armageddon


Also I've been trying to fit in some Porcelain Legionnaire in the main deck, and will probably ad in a karakas.

And unlike dragon or faery stompy there creature's don't have drawbacks (like needing to return lands, lose life every turn, need an nmpty hand)

[(nameless one)]

What about MUD Stompy? You know, like what Michael Bomholt used to take 2nd at Indiana? Though that deck isn't really stompy as it doesn't run Chalice. (Doesn't work with Goblin Welders and Voltaic Keys)

I think that deck had potential but unfortunately, aside from the inconsistency, Mental Misstep killed Goblin Welder.

[Maveric78f]

Aggressive dice rolls and mulligans.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
8 Plains

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Trinisphere

4 Glowrider
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Metamorph

SB:
4 Mental Misstep
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Phyrexian Revoker


The game plan is simple: your opponent should not play a thing or you're pretty much fucked up.

[PyreDream]

That Chancellor of the Tangle really wants to be an Elvish or Simian Spirit Guide.

[bowvamp]

@Pyre: Then you wouldn't be able to put it on chrome mox.

[Maveric78f]

@Pyre: Then you wouldn't be able to put it on chrome mox.

That was my first idea of course, but after some testing, I have to admit he's right. Too often, I don't need the extra mana on turn 1 but would need it on following turns. Also, Chancellor of the Tangle has no surprise effect (against Daze/Pierce). And under Mox, it does not produce white which might be problematic. And finally, Mox is already saturated with Chancellor of the Annex, which implies that it will only very rarely be imprinted on the Tangle one. I don't know if there is another good white/colourless card to take advantage of discard and thus chancellors sticking in our hands.