Battle of Wits at SCG Charlotte

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Oh my god, some dude is playing some Zoo/Battle hybrid.
Round 2 he plays v SneakShow, the dude plays Show and Tell and he drops Battle of Wits. Sick.
This is why I love legacy.
Also, now I kinda wanna make 240 card versions of different legacy decks.

[yawg07]

Hahaha damn I wish I was there.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

The look on the Show and Tell player's face was priceless. It was like, "but how can my Emrakul lose?"

[(nameless one)]

Best format ever. Better than Caw-Blade mirrors.

[dahcmai]

I wanted to see what was in the rest of the deck, but couldn't find any info on it.


And did anyone see the finals? Aj sacher pretty much got scooped into the win. Man, 3 byes and how many scoops later? Seems kind of sorry ass despite the fact his deck was kind of interesting.

[KindGrind]

Very disappointed in the finals, obviously.

I believe he's won 1 game and was scooped to on the others. Crappy...

[coraz86]

I wanted to see what was in the rest of the deck, but couldn't find any info on it.

Kenny Mayer's "Zoo" build (https://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38173) and Ken Adams' "...huge fuckin' pile of whatever" build (https://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38172).

Just checked the standings; Kenny Mayer went 6-3. That man may never have to pay for his own beer ever again. I know I'll buy him a couple if I ever meet him.

[Zamussels]

Any particular reason why everyone is scooping to him? It's really hard to find information on the coverage with the limited written info, and the twitter thing that is spammed by answers to their stupid questions...

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Any particular reason why everyone is scooping to him? It's really hard to find information on the coverage with the limited written info, and the twitter thing that is spammed by answers to their stupid questions...

If he won he gets level 8. That means 4 of every card from every new set for I think a year. So I assume he arranged uneven prize splits with them/his friends are just being nice people. I mean thats something near 3k per new set going by release day SCG prices. So if he is giving you the better prize split it just makes you a jerk to say no.

[Zamussels]

Isn't that technically bribery though?

[thecrav]

Isn't that technically bribery though?

Nah, the rules refers to it as "collusion." Basically, it needs to at least appear that they've decided to scoop out of the kindness of their hearts.

[cdr]

Nah, the rules refers to it as "collusion." Basically, it needs to at least appear that they've decided to scoop out of the kindness of their hearts.

This is inaccurate.

[Mr.C]

Oh my god, some dude is playing some Zoo/Battle hybrid.
Round 2 he plays v SneakShow, the dude plays Show and Tell and he drops Battle of Wits. Sick.
This is why I love legacy.
Also, now I kinda wanna make 240 card versions of different legacy decks.

Anyone have a link to the match? I want to see that.

[marit]

This is inaccurate.

If that's inaccurate then could you please inform us of what is accurate? As I'm curious, and simply dismissing it doesn't do much good.

[cdr]

Unfortunately, I didn't have time for a more detailed reply.

Pre-arranged splits are explicitly legal - you can agree with someone before an event to a split, and then concede if you get paired against them.

Split + not playing any more matches is also explicitly legal at any time after the single elimination cut of an event, as long as all players remaining in the event agree.

What's not legal is either an outside inducement - "concede and I'll give you $20", or a split agreement + concession within a match - one person can concede, or you can agree to a split, but not both.

There's also usually an expectation among experienced tournament players that if you concede when a win is more beneficial for your opponent than for you, your opponent will reward you for it after the event - but this is only implied by custom. If it ever crosses the line into being explicitly stated, it's Bribery.

Here's the MTR section:
5.2 Collusion and Bribery

The decision to drop, concede, or agree to an intentional draw cannot be made in exchange for or influenced by the offer of any reward or incentive. Making such an offer is prohibited. Unless the player receiving such an offer calls for a judge immediately, both players will be penalized in the same manner.

Players are allowed to share prizes they have not yet received in the current tournament as they wish and may agree as such before or during their match, as long as any such sharing does not occur in exchange for any game or match result or the dropping of a player from the tournament. As an exception, players in the announced last round of the single-elimination portion of a tournament may agree to divide tournament prizes as they wish. In that case, one of the players at each table must agree to drop from the tournament. Players are then awarded prizes according to their resulting ranking. DCI ratings will not be affected because no match will have been played. Such an agreement may never include a concession or an intentional draw.

The result of a match or game may not be randomly or arbitrarily determined through any means other than the normal progress of the game in play. Examples include (but are not limited to) rolling a die, flipping a coin, arm wrestling, or playing any other game.

Players may not reach an agreement in conjunction with other matches. Players can make use of information regarding match or game scores of other tables. However, players are not allowed to leave their seats during their match or go to great lengths to obtain this information.

Players in the single-elimination rounds of a tournament offering only cash and/or unopened product as prizes may, with the permission of the Tournament Organizer, agree to split the prizes evenly. The players may end the tournament at that point, or continue to play with only ratings points at stake. All players still in the tournament must agree to the arrangement.

Example: Before the semifinals of a tournament (in which first place gets 12 packs, second place gets 8 packs and 3rd and 4th get 4 packs each) begins, the players may get permission from the Tournament Organizer to end the tournament, with each player receiving 7 packs.

Example: In the finals of a 1-slot Pro Tour Qualifier that offers a travel award and an invitation to the winner, the two finalists may agree to split the tournament prizes, but this agreement cannot alter the results of the match. One player must drop from the tournament, leaving the travel award and the invitation to the player who did not drop from the tournament. That player is then free to split the remainder of the prizes as agreed upon. The travel award and invitation are a single item and may not be split.

And the IPG:
5.4. Unsporting Conduct — Bribery and Wagering

Definition
Bribery occurs when a player offers an incentive to entice an opponent into conceding, drawing, or changing the results of a match, or accepts such an offer. Refer to the Magic Tournament Rules for a more detailed description of what constitutes bribery.
Wagering occurs when a player or spectator at a tournament places a bet on the outcome of a tournament, match or any portion of a tournament or match. The wager does not need to be monetary, nor is it relevant if a player is not betting on his or her own match.

Examples
A. A player in a Swiss round offers his opponent $100 to concede the match.
B. A player offers his opponent a card in exchange for a draw.
C. A player asks for a concession in exchange for a prize split.
D. Two players agree that the winner of the match will be able to choose a rare card out of the other person’s deck after the match.
E. Two spectators place a bet on the number of games that will be needed to decide a match.

Philosophy
Bribery and wagering disrupt the integrity of the tournament and are strictly forbidden.

[yawg07]

Anyone have a link to the match? I want to see that.

OMG That match is on video? I MUST SEE.

[Arsenal]

Stuff like this irks me. As an active member in the Fighting Game Community, we frown greatly upon intentional losses, conceding the match to help out a friend in a different bracket, etc. When your name is called to fight against another person, you give it your all and try to win at all costs, prizes/friendships be damned. The competitive spirit in larger tournaments make Magic less fun to watch as there's nothing at stake if everyone is just going to concede in order to have one person win, then get a few packs/dollars from that person.

[Philipp2293]

6-3 is pretty impressive imo. How many byes, if any, did he have?

[fyrisen]

What about ID's? Arn't those even more worse?

[Mark Sun]

6-3 is pretty impressive imo. How many byes, if any, did he have?

None.

I played some test games against Kenny on Saturday, the deck is really well built. More like a Zoo deck with every critter imaginable + an "Oops, I win" button. I witnessed him win against Dredge... with a hardcast Battle of Wits. Insane.



About the AJ situation, I was already on the ride home so I didn't hear anything about it. Can anyone enlighten me?

[Arsenal]

He already had the obligatory SCG byes due to him being a Leveled player. Then, I believe 75% of his actual opponents scooped to him so that he could advance.

[Mark Sun]

He already had the obligatory SCG byes due to him being a Leveled player. Then, I believe 75% of his actual opponents scooped to him so that he could advance.

Oh, that makes sense. I bet SCG didn't really anticipate that many people getting to Level 8 so quickly (or by these means, hehe).

[cdr]

The people who work at SCG are pretty smart (even if I do wonder about Evan sometimes). I'm positive they ran the numbers, and I'd assume they ran through last year's results as a model.

[Koby]

And for every level 8 player, there's about 100 locals who only show up to one tournament a year - when it's in town.

Seems balanced from a cost/marketing perspective.

[Jason]

Sitting next to the "control" Battle of Wits deck round one (paired against Belcher and almost able to pull off a win) was the greatest tournament experience I've ever had. I also enjoyed walking a few seats down the same table to watch the "aggro" Battle of Wits deck Green Sun's Zenith for Loaming Shaman in game 3 against Dredge, then a couple turns later, draw Battle of Wits off the top and cast it. Sure, he was going to win anyway with Mother of Runes, Loaming Shaman, Raging Ravine and Ajani Vengeant staring down a board of City of Brass, Tarnished Citadel and Stinkweed Imp... but casting Battle was way more epic of a win.

[ScatmanX]

Now, there you got some expensive decks...

[nickbedo]

After watching the match, I think the Show/Sneak player made an error -- he still should have won after Battle of Wits came into play. Since Emrakul gives an extra turn, he could have attacked and Annihilated the BoW (since it triggers during controller's upkeep).

I might be remembering it incorrectly... anyone remember precisely how it went down?

[Sims]

After watching the match, I think the Show/Sneak player made an error -- he still should have won after Battle of Wits came into play. Since Emrakul gives an extra turn, he could have attacked and Annihilated the BoW (since it triggers during controller's upkeep).

I might be remembering it incorrectly... anyone remember precisely how it went down?

You only get the extra turn if you hardcast the Emrakul*. If he sneak or showed it into play, he does not gain the extra turn, and has to pass with a summoning sick 15/15 while his opponent wins during his upkeep to BoW.

*Edit: Because I know someone will point it out- you can get the extra turn in ways other than paying 15, i.e: Shelldock Isle... You have to cast Emrakul to get the extra turn. Sorry, i was hasty in my typing before.

[nickbedo]

You only get the extra turn if you hardcast the Emrakul. If he sneak or showed it into play, he does not gain the extra turn, and has to pass with a summoning sick 15/15 while his opponent wins during his upkeep to BoW.


Ohhhh of course. Okay, cool.

[JeroenC]

Anyone have an idea on how exactly you "sufficiently randomize" a deck like this?

[Koby]

Anyone have an idea on how exactly you "sufficiently randomize" a deck like this?

Thoroughly. lol

I imagine with 240+ cards you would want to make 4 piles of ~60 cards, then shuffle those as you would your deck, then take half and shuffle between other stacks. It definitly takes a while to do this.

[Jason]

Anyone have an idea on how exactly you "sufficiently randomize" a deck like this?

I saw them pile shuffling excessively in between rounds. During the game, when tutoring, they would search the first third for the card they wanted. If it was there, they'd just shuffle that third and then break it, and shuffle each part with the bottom 2 pieces. It took them less than a minute to find the card and shuffle, which was impressive.

[ScatmanX]

I hope I never play against those decks while playing Spiral Tide...

[Whippoorwill]

Didn't see it posted yet, but here's a link to the part where he played against Show and Tell:

http://www.blip.tv/file/5114229

[pw709]

Thoroughly. lol

I imagine with 240+ cards you would want to make 4 piles of ~60 cards, then shuffle those as you would your deck, then take half and shuffle between other stacks. It definitly takes a while to do this.

I just watched the video of the Show and Tell match and it really didn't seem random the first time he searched. He shuffled the 4 sections but then just stacked them on top of each other, meaning he could essentially know what was in the bottom section. Not that it matters, but I'd say in that case the way he shuffled was hardly sufficient.


After watching the match, I think the Show/Sneak player made an error -- he still should have won after Battle of Wits came into play. Since Emrakul gives an extra turn, he could have attacked and Annihilated the BoW (since it triggers during controller's upkeep).

I might be remembering it incorrectly... anyone remember precisely how it went down?

First post? You got some work to do man. :P

EDIT: Just added the rukcus quote to my reply to give it more context and deleted my original post. I forgot the ashes of my post are still there; makes me feel like I said something dirty.

[chags]

Anyone have an idea on how exactly you "sufficiently randomize" a deck like this?

You just wait for your opponent to flip the table after you drop BoW off of show and tell and then play 260 card pick up.

Edit: with your eyes closed of course