SCG Article - Reanimator draws 7!

[GGoober]

How wrong/correct do you think this article is?

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21746_New_Phyrexia_And_An_Old_Favorite_In_Legacy.html

I mainly question his deep desires to run Jin-Gitaxias

Casting Cost: 8

Oracle Text: Flash
At the beginning of your end step, draw seven cards.
Each opponent's maximum hand size is reduced by seven.
5/4

He discusses the cons on other 'standard' reanimator targets, point taken. He discusses the cons on Jin-Gitaxias (5/4 body that loses in combat, and prone to removal), point taken. He discusses the benefits of Jin-Gitaxias, which sadly are all benefits that only apply when he's in play. Uhm, if reanimator cheats a creature in play, you should be winning, but I guess drawing 7 cards is more powerful than having removal-resistance (note if you StP Jin-Gitaxias before reanimator's EOT, he does not draw 7 cards).

This is my opinion on the article, feel free to discuss!

[CorpT]

Isn't Platinum Emperion + Mental Misttep / Force of Will / Fetchlands a little awkward?

[wcm8]

I don't really like him very much, certainly not enough to run 4. I feel like if you have the luxury to choose your target via entomb, you want to pick the best target for job at hand, which is to kill the opponent as quickly as possible before they can find an answer. Running this guy out as your first option seems risky -- Iona, Inkwell, or even Stormtide end the game quickly and Relatively more safely. I think Jin may function better as a follow up target after you've already started applying pressure with your first fatty.

Testing needs to be done of course. I am actually thinking that the white praetor would make a great sideboard target against tribal decks.

[Koby]

I fail to see how running a deck that relies on 1cc spells to resolve (Entomb, Reanimate, Careful Study, Personal Tutor) will ever become effective with Mental Misstep in the format.

I don't see this archetype succeeding very well.

[wcm8]

I fail to see how running a deck that relies on 1cc spells to resolve (Entomb, Reanimate, Careful Study, Personal Tutor) will ever become effective with Mental Misstep in the format.

I don't see this archetype succeeding very well.

Misstep is a fantastic card, but you are overstating its strength against reanimator. Reanimator runs Discard and counter magic to make sure its combo lands. It's not like goblins where it is so hugely important to establish a key 1-drop on turn 1. If I am playing against an unknown opponent and my opening hand consists of Reanimate, entomb, and duress, duress is going to be my first turn play -- no need to get greedy. Also, I'm betting that misstep will find it's way into Reanimator decks.

Legacy players will continue to run minimal graveyard hate, and even if that changes Reanimator only needs to resolve Show and Tell in the post-board games. It's not as powerful as it used to be, but still a viable strategy for the right metagame.

It's a combo deck that was hurt by the loss of Mystical Tutor, but it's no less playable just becaus of Misstep.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I fail to see how running a deck that relies on 1cc spells to resolve (Entomb, Reanimate, Careful Study, Personal Tutor) will ever become effective with Mental Misstep in the format.

I don't see this archetype succeeding very well.

ZoMG I failz to c how a dec tHat c@sts spellz iz posibl with FoW in tha form@!

Seriously, I'm sick and fucking tired of the mental misstep hysteria. The card is good. It is NOT going to make playing decks that rely on 1 cc spells impossible.

[Koby]

Misstep is a fantastic card, but you are overstating its strength against reanimator. Reanimator runs Discard and counter magic to make sure its combo lands. It's not like goblins where it is so hugely important to establish a key 1-drop on turn 1. If I am playing against an unknown opponent and my opening hand consists of Reanimate, entomb, and duress, duress is going to be my first turn play -- no need to get greedy. Also, I'm betting that misstep will find it's way into Reanimator decks.

Legacy players will continue to run minimal graveyard hate, and even if that changes Reanimator only needs to resolve Show and Tell in the post-board games. It's not as powerful as it used to be, but still a viable strategy for the right metagame.

It's a combo deck that was hurt by the loss of Mystical Tutor, but it's no less playable just becaus of Misstep.

For the record, I don't anticipate non-blue MM decks to beat this. I am referring to blue decks with MM. You know, like ones that normally already run counterspells. Zoo with MM is an abortion of ideas.

EDIT: Also, you realize almost every deck with access to WG already runs Karakas? Guess which card type Jin-Gixatias has?

[wcm8]

I'm not sure where Jin Gitaxis is so much better as a first reanimation target than the other options..

Against most blue control decks, I want Inkwell.
Combo? Iona, generally.
Tribal/aggro/dredge? Stormtide or Blazing Archon. -- or now, perhaps the new white Praetor
Burn/Sligh? Empyrial archangel, Platinum Emperion, maybe Sphinx of Steel Wind.

Jin Gitaxis seems like a fantastic second target, but then so is just about any other fatty. Actually, an awesome second target would be Painter's Servant after you've already gotten Iona on the field. The second fatty isn't as important, because ideally your first one should be ending the game in three turns.

[GGoober]

For the record, I don't anticipate non-blue MM decks to beat this. I am referring to blue decks with MM. You know, like ones that normally already run counterspells. Zoo with MM is an abortion of ideas.

EDIT: Also, you realize almost every deck with access to WG already runs Karakas? Guess which card type Jin-Gixatias has?

Creature - Get bounced by Karakas all day and dies to StP/GFTT/Path otherwise draw 7 and maybe win otherwise win-more.

EDIT: I guess it also pitches to FoW.

[bakofried]

It's not that you won't be able to fight MM with Reanimator, it will just be an added obstacle. And, seeing as how Reanimator is hardly a force in the meta, I wouldn't be too worried about it.

Also, Goblins is built to deal with losing that one drop (whichever it may be). When I play Lackey, I expect it to be countered or removed or have something done about it, and the same applies to Vial.

[Nessaja]

Fairly sure he's just making sure that more people buy the card from SGC. There's way too many holes in his plan even when everything goes right it's not better then Sphinx against aggro.

MM in Reanimator, perhaps a no-brainer, Jin-Blabla.. I don't see it.

[Crysthorn]

Casting Cost: 8
No, Jin-Gitaxias is 8UU, so the casting cost is actually 10 and he eats half your life when being reanimated.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

His point is less that it is the best target in any situation, and more-so that he is always going to be useful. Assuming you aren't going to run 4-of every different creature, it means that you NEED Entomb to find the right fatty. What Jin does so well is being good against everything as long as he lives. Yes he is absolute jank against decks like zoo or goblins. But against those decks, a draw 7 on turn 2 plus a possible Mind Twist will probably give you the edge to win.

[NyxathidHorror]

I fail to see how running a deck that relies on 1cc spells to resolve (Entomb, Reanimate, Careful Study, Personal Tutor) will ever become effective with Mental Misstep in the format.

I don't see this archetype succeeding very well.

I'll answer with what was posted in the Reanimator thread...


@ Everyone Discussing Mental Misstep

It is common knowledge that it can counter just about half if not more of our deck. But we still have Daze, Force of Will, and the potential to run Mental Misstep ourselves. We should be able to counter around or Duress, Thoughtseize, or whatever discard you prefer MM out of their hand. I think MM has the potential to wreck this deck, but if you are a relatively intelligent player, you will be able to play through or around it just like the current free counters and graveyard hate.

[Koby]

Fact 1: Reanimator hasn't posted good results in the current metagame.
Fact 2: Reanimator's best targets are Legendary and invalidated by Karakas.
Fact 3: Mental Misstep both hits many of Reanimator's key spells.

I think it's disingenuous to assume that simply because you have Mental Misstep in the deck all the sudden it will prop the deck to being better than it was prior. Fact is that the loss of Mystical Tutor hurt this deck much more than any other aspect, including the new counterspell.

If I'm going to be playing "intelligently" and casting Duress and Thoughtseize, I'd much rather be casting Ad Nauseum than Reanimate.

[Nihil Credo]

I'm frankly amazed that CTRL-F for "Shallow Grave" or "Goryo's Vengeance" returns zero results. To me, that seems THE point in favour of even considering Jin-Gitaxias - the fact that you can keep him for just one turn and it still does 90% of its job, putting you ridiculously far ahead. (Reanimate during opponent's EOT, Mind Twists during cleanup, untap, attack if possible, EOT stack both triggers so you still draw 7.)

If you're going to use "regular" reanimation spells his attractiveness largely disappears - Iona looks better in an easy majority of the scenarios.

[NyxathidHorror]

Fact 1: Reanimator hasn't posted good results in the current metagame.
Fact 2: Reanimator's best targets are Legendary and invalidated by Karakas.
Fact 3: Mental Misstep both hits many of Reanimator's key spells.

And I have a goldfish...


I think it's ingenious to assume that simply because you have Mental Misstep in the deck all the sudden it will prop the deck to being better than it was prior. Fact is that the loss of Mystical Tutor hurt this deck much more than any other aspect, including the new counterspell.

I don't think the inclusion of MM making the deck any better was mentioned even once.

*reads again*

Nope, not even once. Quite the opposite actually; playing against it...


If I'm going to be playing "intelligently" and casting Duress and Thoughtseize, I'd much rather be casting Ad Nauseum than Reanimate.

Tendrils combo will be the deck that feels MM's true potential. I'm not nearly as concerned about facing MM in a deck that already has 12+ disruption spells.



I'm frankly amazed that CTRL-F for "Shallow Grave" or "Goryo's Vengeance" returns zero results.

Couldn't agree more. Especially for a list with a full set MD... :laugh:

[practical joke]

@ Nihil, you know that even with jin-whatever-it-is in play, you lose to a resolved goyf. (which is stronger)

reanimate has a buttload of blanks in it's deck once it has a combo going on. draw 7 mostly means draw potential crap. It simply can do that.

A single goyf or stp could bring that "advantage" back to a few cards (let's say a realistic 4 cards advantage) and 4 cards aren't a lot for reanimate, since you'll still have to set up a second combo.

It might've even costed you a whopping 10 lives!

I don't like that card since it can hardly win on it's own (and yes when he dies to a goyf block you can exhume him again.....riiight and that has put you even further behind boardwise)

reanimate is based on a creature selection that win the game right on the spot. Now name a single deck that this card wins against that the current selection of creatures can't?

current selection should be:

- sphinx
- inkwell
- iona
- stormtide/blazing archon (preference call, I just think archon is slightly better)

[perm]

Reanimator is just a bad archetype in general. You use like four cards to get one creature into play. Maybe this is viable with instant speeds as nihil credo mentioned.

[arebennian]

4 Shallow Grave + 4 Goryo's Vengence + 4 Emrakul + 4 Jin + 4 Entomb + filtering +Discard + Protection.

8 decent instant speed effect targets might be worth it.

[GGoober]

I'm frankly amazed that CTRL-F for "Shallow Grave" or "Goryo's Vengeance" returns zero results. To me, that seems THE point in favour of even considering Jin-Gitaxias - the fact that you can keep him for just one turn and it still does 90% of its job, putting you ridiculously far ahead. (Reanimate during opponent's EOT, Mind Twists during cleanup, untap, attack if possible, EOT stack both triggers so you still draw 7.)

If you're going to use "regular" reanimation spells his attractiveness largely disappears - Iona looks better in an easy majority of the scenarios.

Now, this is a shell that actually breaks Mr. Jin. In Reanimator, if you're paying 10 life to reanimate a guy that does not win you the game (immediately), you really should be reconsidering to play ANT/TES (you pay 10 life to win games).

I think your suggestion here actually has much more potential, well if the potential is to break Mr. Jin, which I don't feel is worth breaking in Legacy. If Oath's unbanned, he could get funny, but even then I think he's still fairly subpar because unlike Vintage, there's just way too much removal in Legacy while in Vintage even a Mountain Goat can win games.

[alderon666]

As Reanimator has been since the dawn of time, reanimating something on turn 1/2/3 is the only way to win. Past that you're probably losing already.

Now just imagine Reanimating this guy on turn 2:

Turn 1: Underground Sea, Hapeless Researcher
Turn 1: Taiga, Wild Nacatl
Turn 2: Island, sacrifica Hapless and Reanimate Mr. Jin

Now at the end of turn you draw 7, you'll discard a second reanimation target and is very likely to draw into one or even two free counter for the removal you opponent has. And even a Brainstorm to dig even deeper.

Now, your opponent is discarding his hand at his EOT and you're getting fresh card every turn while he's in topdeck mode. How is that SO much better than Iona? Sure Iona locks them off a color, but that usually their removal color.


TL;DR
The point is, Mr. Jin does protect himself. Your opponent is likely to be tapped out on turn 1 or 2, and them you just drew 7! Them it's an uphill battle for them. Even if you trade Mr. Jin for Goyf, you can probably reanimate something else next turn, even 2 creatures.

[GGoober]

TL;DR
The point is, Mr. Jin does protect himself. Your opponent is likely to be tapped out on turn 1 or 2, and them you just drew 7! Them it's an uphill battle for them. Even if you trade Mr. Jin for Goyf, you can probably reanimate something else next turn, even 2 creatures.

Not true.

1) To reanimate on turn 2 involves zero resistance from an opponent (FoW, Pierce, MM, StP). Even assuming if they don't have any resistance, you would also need a good hand involving Entomb/Study + Reanimating spells. There will always be a form of resistance. This naturally implies that Reanimator for most parts cannot go blindly into Entomb + Reanimate by turn 2, and would almost always have to spend a turn on a Duress/Thoughtseize to power your win-condition through.

2) If your opponents tapped out on turn 1 (you can't reanimate on turn 1 so not relevant here) or turn 2 and still NOT have an answer to reanimator, they deserve to lose. Chances are, if they tap out, they probably already have the hate ready, and if the target was Iona/Inkwell, you have a chance at blanking that removal, with Mr. Jin, no chance.

3) Let's say you passed the turn and drew 7 cards (best scenario for Mr. Jin). You have already lost 10 life from Reanimate, which puts you in the danger of just straight up losing to aggro. Mr. Jin may very well need to block the 5/6 goyf or 3/3 Nacatl that's coming in, eats a bolt, or if you don't block a Nacatl, then you eat 3 damage and your opponents can just burn you off. The thing is, Mr. Jin is a very weak 5/4 body that does nothing. After you've drawn 7, your Thoughtseize/FoW/Reanimates are all somewhat dead cards considering your low life totals. Now if you Exhumed Mr. Jin instead, that's a different story, but you're also much more prone to Daze/Pierce.

I hate raising countless of examples, but I did it because I wanted to use these pointless examples to prove a point on how your scenarios/examples don't really add up much, just like how my examples probably don't add up much as well.

[blaat]

I'm frankly amazed that CTRL-F for "Shallow Grave" or "Goryo's Vengeance" returns zero results. To me, that seems THE point in favour of even considering Jin-Gitaxias - the fact that you can keep him for just one turn and it still does 90% of its job, putting you ridiculously far ahead. (Reanimate during opponent's EOT, Mind Twists during cleanup, untap, attack if possible, EOT stack both triggers so you still draw 7.)

If you're going to use "regular" reanimation spells his attractiveness largely disappears - Iona looks better in an easy majority of the scenarios.

Exactly, forget the currect reanimator decks.

This is what I currently have as test deck.
Too bad I couldn't play it during my last tournament due to the absence of 3x Entomb.

Grave enablers:
4x Entomb
4x Hapless Researchers

Carefull study has no place here since it's sorcery. Other instant speed grave stuff aren't good enough, but False Memories or Read the Runes come close.

Reanimation:
4x Shallow Grave
1-3x Goryo's Vengeance
(can't target Godsire, so maybe a combination of this + Corpse Dance will prove to be better.

Fat:
Xx Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Attack with hasty spaghetti is often GG, but it depends on the board state. X depends on your Show and tell plan, probably SB.

1-2x Godsire
EoT create token, next turn attack for 16 and create another token before it exiles. Removal during EoT always gives you a 8/8 token. Perfect creature if opponent has Karakas in play.

1-4x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
Make them discard their hand EoT, attack for 5 next turn and draw 7 EoT. Also pitches to FoW.

Rest of the deck is pretty self-explanatory.
You add the FoW package (ponder, brainstorm), a manabase + petals and still have a few empty slots for additional disruption like Duress or other counters.
Running Mental Misstep can be pretty good against StP/PtE shenanigans against a hasty Godsire/Mr. Jin

I don't see how Mental Misstep will kill the deck completely, like mentioned before.
Remember the 40% chance of one in your openings hand, and this deck running enough disruption or pieces to ignore it.
Hell, I think I like to play against it, so i have more chances that eventually a hasty emrakul goes all the way because of the life-loss from Mental misstep + fetch and probably a FoW. This concerned me because you only deal 15 damage one time with emrakul, and the chance they recover from it before I get to deal the next 5 damage.

[alderon666]

So let me make a statement that we can all agree on:

If Jin Kazama stays in play until the end of your opponent's turn you probably win the game. If he stays just until the end of your turn, you'll be very likely to protect him and reanimate a better finisher on your next turn.

How easy or likely those things are too happen will be only discovered through testing.

IMHO it's a close call with Iona. While Iona shuts a % of their deck (up to 100%). The blue guy sets a huge advantage threat that if protected for a turn will probably seal the game. Against a field playing MUD or various 3/4 color decks I can see it being better than Iona. As a always go-to guy, we'll only discover by testing our asses off.

[Rico Suave]

The problem is that drawing 7 cards is an extremely weak effect in this deck.

Consider that if your first Reanimate is on Jin, you have just nixed 10 life. You have, at most, 10 life remaining. You are already cut off from 3 of your Reanimate targets. Now keep in mind that you have 10 fetchlands and only 8 real lands, so you're likely to lose life getting your mana base to work. Force of Will and Mental Misstep both require life. You also have Thoughtseize, with more coming out of the board. If you lose one life you can only possibly Reanimate Platinum Emperion, or Sphinx if you are in a post-SB game. If you lose two life over the course of the game, your 2nd Reanimate will always kill you.

So in effect, if you Reanimate this Jin guy and draw 7 you are very close if not already unable to capitalize on drawing a 2nd Reanimate. Remember, a single Misstep cuts you off, much less your opponent's cards hurting you too.

Now, what can you *really* do with this guy in play? Well you can draw some disruption, sure. You can also draw an Exhume, which will work in the absence of a Reanimate effect. Of course...you can't actually Exhume a 2nd Jin into play because he's Legendary. But that's about it for the list of things you can do with a fresh set of 7 cards in this deck. Is this going to revolutionize the deck? No. Does it even help with the biggest problem Reanimator has, which is getting a fatty into play in the first place? No.

It's good to see that people are attempting to include new cards. But that doesn't mean it's better than already existing cards. Why is this new card better than Terastodon?

[Clark Kant]

He's not a Reanimate target.

He's an Exhume target.

He's an Animate Dead target.

He fits into any decklist that plays 3-4 Animate Dead, and a decent amount of protection. He isn't nearly as strong in a build that plays Exhume and Reanimate as the only animate effects.

And yes, you very likely will win the game as long as he survives till the end of your turn. Because once you draw 7 additional cards/1-2 counters, if you can't keep the guy alive for a turn, you deserve to lose.

So all you have to do is keep him alive till the end of your turn. What does this means? The only thing this means you should not play him when your opponent has an untapped white source and you don't have a counterspell. Actually, even then, you can get away with playing him if you already Thoughtseized your opponent once.

Aside from that narrow scenario where you should know better than to entomb him, he's gold.

[Rico Suave]

Are you seriously talking about improving the deck by removing Reanimate and replacing it with Animate Dead? Or is that a joke? I can't tell.

[GGoober]

He's not a Reanimate target.

He's an Exhume target.

He's an Animate Dead target.

He fits into any decklist that plays 3-4 Animate Dead, and a decent amount of protection. He isn't nearly as strong in a build that plays Exhume and Reanimate as the only animate effects.

And yes, you very likely will win the game as long as he survives till the end of your turn. Because once you draw 7 additional cards/1-2 counters, if you can't keep the guy alive for a turn, you deserve to lose.

So all you have to do is keep him alive till the end of your turn. What does this means? The only thing this means you should not play him when your opponent has an untapped white source and you don't have a counterspell. Actually, even then, you can get away with playing him if you already Thoughtseized your opponent once.

Aside from that narrow scenario where you should know better than to entomb him, he's gold.


You draw 7, what are you going to do next? Suppose your hand is filled with counter, you have a 5/4 in play that is legendary, and assuming you play the SCG list with 4 Mr. Jin, what are you reanimating next? Do you FoW every creature your opponent plays because it is in every way bigger than a 5/4 (or even smaller if you played Animate dead).

Now, don't forget that the number of cards invested to get Mr. Jin in play, (entomb/study + Reanimate/exhume + duress/FoW/Daze + 2 lands), by the time you draw 7, it's not really that impressive on the first draw 7 anyway. And the question remains, what do you do next with a 5/4 with 7 cards in hand? What has your opponent played out in 2 turns by then?

What I'm trying to get at is:
If you get a 5/4 with 7 cards in hand EOT on turn 2, you really need to look at whether that's a broken scenario. Take this scenario v.s.:
Turn 2 7/7 Iona with 3-5 cards in hand
Turn 2 9/9 Terrastadon + three 3/3 elephants with 3-5 cards in hand or maybe you give your opponents the elephants and they have no lands
Turn 3 Sphinx of the Steel Wind against matchups where it's removal immune.

a 5/4 with 7 cards on turn 2 still doesn't present a formidable threat for decks that play creatures normally (Nacatly/Goyf/KotR).

The best scenario Jin offers is if your opponents can't remove him, then you win, but that's like saying my opponents can't stop me from getting Iona/TTerrastadon in play, which I win anyway. Jin doesn't help Reanimator in getting himself or other targets in play, which is Reanimator's biggest problem. In fact, Jin is prone to WAY more removal than any other targets that are played, so you're just setting yourself to spend 4 cards to reanimate something that bites the dust before even drawing 7. Even if you do draw 7, you may still succumb to the variance the 7 cards you drew. Who's to tell you that you're going to hit FoWs/Daze when you're tapped out against an opponent's removal?

[Clark Kant]

Are you seriously talking about improving the deck by removing Reanimate and replacing it with Animate Dead? Or is that a joke? I can't tell.

No I'm talking about playing 3 Animate Dead alongside Reanimate and Exhume. Plenty of lists play Animate Dead already. Those are the lists that the creature excels in.

[perm]

What we have here is essentially an instant speed draw 7 discard 7 that takes a turn to work. Shallow grave and goryos are really the only way to go. Is anyone seriously considering using a 10 cmc legend as a goyf sized win con? Reanimator is bad, especially considering there are actually good combo decks available. So this guy should be used as a combo piece that heavily disrupts and protects while heavily enabling your combo. Think magus of the jar tendrils but actually playable

[Clark Kant]

You draw 7, what are you going to do next? Suppose your hand is filled with counter, you have a 5/4 in play that is legendary, and assuming you play the SCG list with 4 Mr. Jin, what are you reanimating next? Do you FoW every creature your opponent plays because it is in every way bigger than a 5/4 (or even smaller if you played Animate dead).

Who said anything about playing that list. That list honestly looks awful, and I see no good reason for playing 4. I would probably play 2, along with a Blazing Archon, two Iona and an Inkwell. And I would definately make room for 3 Animate Dead.

You entomb for it when it would work.

[TsumiBand]

The problem is that drawing 7 cards is an extremely weak effect in this deck.

Consider that if your first Reanimate is on Jin, you have just nixed 10 life. You have, at most, 10 life remaining. You are already cut off from 3 of your Reanimate targets. Now keep in mind that you have 10 fetchlands and only 8 real lands, so you're likely to lose life getting your mana base to work. Force of Will and Mental Misstep both require life. You also have Thoughtseize, with more coming out of the board. If you lose one life you can only possibly Reanimate Platinum Emperion, or Sphinx if you are in a post-SB game. If you lose two life over the course of the game, your 2nd Reanimate will always kill you.

So in effect, if you Reanimate this Jin guy and draw 7 you are very close if not already unable to capitalize on drawing a 2nd Reanimate. Remember, a single Misstep cuts you off, much less your opponent's cards hurting you too.

Now, what can you *really* do with this guy in play? Well you can draw some disruption, sure. You can also draw an Exhume, which will work in the absence of a Reanimate effect. Of course...you can't actually Exhume a 2nd Jin into play because he's Legendary. But that's about it for the list of things you can do with a fresh set of 7 cards in this deck. Is this going to revolutionize the deck? No. Does it even help with the biggest problem Reanimator has, which is getting a fatty into play in the first place? No.

It's good to see that people are attempting to include new cards. But that doesn't mean it's better than already existing cards. Why is this new card better than Terastodon?

Slowcap. This is what I've been trying to ascertain since post 1, but I assumed I was missing something.

This guy is terrible in a Reanimator deck. Reanimator is classically the combo deck that goes off turn 1 and still waits until turn 3/4 to seal the deal. Why in the hell does a player want to have to 'go off' TWICE with fucking Reanimator?? The best plan has always been to just put the biggest, nastiest, most trollshoudiest creature in Magic into play and win with it. Alternatively, you toolbox your opponent out of the game with protection giants or Iona or other 8/8s that have flying and trample and somehow get to set new rules for the game to follow ("Your opponents can't play spells or lands until they buy you a burger from Israel").

The decks that would want to reanimate this guy into play, wouldn't want to reanimate this guy into play.

[wcm8]

Reanimator is bad, especially considering there are actually good combo decks available

For what it's worth, I got first place in a local sanctioned tournament this last weekend playing reanimator. My only loss was to Merfolk, and two of the decks I beat were TES and painter/stone. I wouldn't take it to a big tournament, but even without mystical tutor, I would say reanimator is still a legitimate deck.

[Rico Suave]

No I'm talking about playing 3 Animate Dead alongside Reanimate and Exhume. Plenty of lists play Animate Dead already. Those are the lists that the creature excels in.

Looking at the SCG series there's been a grand total of 1 Reanimator deck which has included any copies of Animate Dead in it, and it placed 11th in February. I would hardly describe this as "plenty of lists" and in fact it doesn't even qualify for the plural - it is a list.

This list had 8 pieces of disruption, which was a starved number for a Reanimator deck in order to make room for these Animate Dead.

By your own words:
"He fits into any decklist that plays 3-4 Animate Dead, and a decent amount of protection. He isn't nearly as strong in a build that plays Exhume and Reanimate as the only animate effects."

So then, any list which can find room for Animate Dead (by cutting protection) is also going to suffer from not having a decent amount of protection? Or assuming that 8 pieces of disruption is a decent amount of protection (which it isn't for Reanimator)...

"And yes, you very likely will win the game as long as he survives till the end of your turn. Because once you draw 7 additional cards/1-2 counters, if you can't keep the guy alive for a turn, you deserve to lose."

Do you even know the odds of drawing at least one counter off 7 cards, much less the fact that Daze is completely horrid at protecting from removal after they untap? Are you replacing Daze with Misstep, thus making the deck worse against anything that can stop the combo which doesn't cost 1? (Force, CB, Tormod's Crypt, opposing Daze, yadda yadda).

Or are you just trying to tell us, in code, that a person playing Jin and Animate Dead deserves to lose?

[Mr.Dieth]

Everybody is always talking about against this aggro I want sphinx against control I want inky and so on. But often you Do Not have this choice, I played reanimator on a couple of tourny's and most of the games you do not have entomb and have to use the creature you draw and can discard, and most of the times it was the wrong creature for the job ( inky vs goblins, sphinx vs combo, and so on, this is all very very weak and you will just lose )

On the other hand Yin-boy is pretty good against anything he can win you the game vs goblins vs control and is awesomness vs combo.

I am testing him in a list with 12 free counters ( daze, mm and trusty o'l fow )

I am playing 3 reanimate, 4 exhume, 2 animate dead

as other creatures I play 1 iona, a sphinx and emporium/inky ( not so sure yet, I switch from times to times)

So I can still go for a utility creature vs certain decks


And I have to say, this works pretty good! ( better then non yin builds ) But reanimator just fizzles so often, so it's still a bad deck. Really can't cope with the loss of M.tutor

My 2cents and test results :)

[GGoober]

I played reanimator on a couple of tourny's and most of the games you do not have entomb and have to use the creature you draw and can discard, and most of the times it was the wrong creature for the job

How does Jin help the situations where you don't have an entomb? You really think Jin is the ideal choice for a draw/discard careful study in the bulk of the matchups? You know that even Goblins runs removal that gets rid of him when you pass the turn, i.e. Wierding and Gempalm actually kills a 4-toughness guy pretty easily. Every other deck in the format runs much stronger removal than Wierding and Incinerator.



And I have to say, this works pretty good! ( better then non yin builds ) But reanimator just fizzles so often, so it's still a bad deck. Really can't cope with the loss of M.tutor


How does Jin help Reanimator not fizzle? I really cannot see this, so please enlighten me. If you're talking about post-reanimation that he doesn't make you fizzle, then I think you missed the point of reanimator. Reanimator wants to invest cards into getting out a dude to win games, not to continue to reanimate and play shenanigans. Whether Jin or some other card fits this role, it has to do something to win a game, and not to 'fizzle' post-reanimation. Reanimator actually never technically 'fizzles'. If you get to the point of successfully reanimating targets, you lose only because:

1) Opponents clock you out (combo/aggro)
2) Your reanimated target dies and you don't have enough resource to get another one out

Jin is going to lose to 1) pretty easily, he also loses to 2) pretty easily since he has almost no protection in built (unless you assume you get to the EOT phase, good luck thinking that against a format with 1cmc white-removal).

To be fair, I haven't tested this guy, but in all fairness, I'm pretty sure the people who tested this guy to be nuts falll into the category of "I drew 7 cards, I crushed my opponents!" i.e. getting caught up with the winning-situations of the card, rather than analyzing across reanimator targets how often do you truly win games with Jin. I haven't tested, but I played the format long enough to know that if my opponent wants to draw7 with this guy in Legacy, they have pretty high hopes.

[Clark Kant]

:laugh: I find it personally amusing that so many people who actually play Reanimator understand the utility the guy provides and the situations where he is the correct call (when it's clear that your opponent cant kill him this turn), while arm chair quarterbacks in here who clearly do not play the deck and do not understand the utility of drawing 7 cards, including more Animate Deads/Exhumes/FoW/Daze/Duress while discarding your creatures, are adamant that he doesn't fit.

[Artowis]

:laugh: I find it personally amusing that so many people who actually play Reanimator understand the utility the guy provides and the situations where he is the correct call (when it's clear that your opponent cant kill him this turn), while arm chair quarterbacks in here who clearly do not play the deck and do not understand the utility of drawing 7 cards, including more Animate Deads/Exhumes/FoW/Daze/Duress while discarding your creatures, are adamant that he doesn't fit.

Link to your results with Reanimator anywhere? I'll hang up and listen.

[Rico Suave]

:laugh: I find it personally amusing that so many people who actually play Reanimator understand the utility the guy provides and the situations where he is the correct call (when it's clear that your opponent cant kill him this turn), while arm chair quarterbacks in here who clearly do not play the deck and do not understand the utility of drawing 7 cards, including more Animate Deads/Exhumes/FoW/Daze/Duress while discarding your creatures, are adamant that he doesn't fit.

Before, when I asked if you were joking, you could have just said yes and not wasted my time. Instead you have opted to be a giant troll and dodge the issue at hand with hidden implications that anyone who disagrees with you is terrible at this game. I can't decide if I should be mad at myself for expecting you to have posted better, or if I should be sympathetic that you really just don't have a clue what you are smoking.

[Mr.Dieth]

How does Jin help the situations where you don't have an entomb? You really think Jin is the ideal choice for a draw/discard careful study in the bulk of the matchups? You know that even Goblins runs removal that gets rid of him when you pass the turn, i.e. Wierding and Gempalm actually kills a 4-toughness guy pretty easily. Every other deck in the format runs much stronger removal than Wierding and Incinerator.




How does Jin help Reanimator not fizzle? I really cannot see this, so please enlighten me. If you're talking about post-reanimation that he doesn't make you fizzle, then I think you missed the point of reanimator. Reanimator wants to invest cards into getting out a dude to win games, not to continue to reanimate and play shenanigans. Whether Jin or some other card fits this role, it has to do something to win a game, and not to 'fizzle' post-reanimation. Reanimator actually never technically 'fizzles'. If you get to the point of successfully reanimating targets, you lose only because:

1) Opponents clock you out (combo/aggro)
2) Your reanimated target dies and you don't have enough resource to get another one out

Jin is going to lose to 1) pretty easily, he also loses to 2) pretty easily since he has almost no protection in built (unless you assume you get to the EOT phase, good luck thinking that against a format with 1cmc white-removal).

To be fair, I haven't tested this guy, but in all fairness, I'm pretty sure the people who tested this guy to be nuts falll into the category of "I drew 7 cards, I crushed my opponents!" i.e. getting caught up with the winning-situations of the card, rather than analyzing across reanimator targets how often do you truly win games with Jin. I haven't tested, but I played the format long enough to know that if my opponent wants to draw7 with this guy in Legacy, they have pretty high hopes.

When I say reanimator "fizzles" I'm speaking about getting the first creature out say turn 4, I have rarely won a game when it took me so long. Reanimator should be explosive, otherwise you Will get raced bye kotf and goyf.

srlsy How often can you choose who you reanimate ? have you played a lot with the deck ? I have tested the crap out of it, because I love it. And the biggest problem pre yin was: I was always drawing the wrong creatures, who where totally buggers against the deck I was playing, really you do Not want to reanimate a inky against goblins, you do Not want to see a archon/sphinx against combo, and if you pay 8-9lives to get them, well that is just stupid.

You just do not have the luxury of having entomb always!

Now with Yin, I really have less of these problems, he is an acceptable target against control, aggro and combo. You have 12 counters ! and 4 hand disruption! really, you CAN keep him alive without much problems ( 1/4 off your deck protects this guy ! if that isn't enough .. )

So I will resume: Yin isnt always the Best target, but he is always good. Thus you can play 4, thus making the deck more Consistend, which was the real problem of reanimator.

I HAVE tested it and I tell you it Is an improvement, but nonetheless is reanimator still not good enough :frown: wich I'm sad about.

[GGoober]

... Sorry if I'm not following you because I really am not able to. Reading your post makes me feel that you're supporting Jin because the testings you've done with him winning games for you is creating the 'false' impression that he's good. It's like if I played Goyfs in Landstills and I won with Goyfs for many games, I start concluding that Goyfs are awesome in Landstill and I start playing them until I realized it was the other cards/scenarios that made Goyf good. What I'm saying is that the wins associated with Jin are really win-more, at least at a theoretical level (I've done no testing). Jin still never does anything pre-reanimation, nor does he do anything post-reanimation (except when you have moved to EOT phase but there is still the post-reanimation phase before EOT where he loses to a ton of removal).


When I say reanimator "fizzles" I'm speaking about getting the first creature out say turn 4, I have rarely won a game when it took me so long. Reanimator should be explosive, otherwise you Will get raced bye kotf and goyf.

So you agree with me that playing Jin does not offer any benefit to speeding Reanimator right? That was the point on my argument: you mentioned Reanimator fizzles and propose that Jin reduces this, and I argue that Jin does nothing to help reanimator not fizzle.



Srlsy How often can you choose who you reanimate ? have you played a lot with the deck ? I have tested the crap out of it, because I love it. And the biggest problem pre yin was: I was always drawing the wrong creatures, who where totally buggers against the deck I was playing, really you do Not want to reanimate a inky against goblins, you do Not want to see a archon/sphinx against combo, and if you pay 8-9lives to get them, well that is just stupid.

If you entomb, you choose. If you don't, you careful study into creatures that matter. Sure, if you run a split of 4 creatures that most reanimator lists do, you may discard a subpar creature that is reanimated against a specific matchup where it sucks e.g. Inkwell against Goblins. Now, does playing 4 Jin help with the no-entomb hands? You claim it does. I would agree if Jin is that powerful enough to win games by himself i.e. if I always get Jin in play I win. That was the point of my argument. You don't, and playing 4 Jin is definitely wrong, because when you do draw an entomb, that 2nd to 4th Jin is taking up slots where you could have TUTORED for the best target.

Lol. You pay 9 life animating Inky/Sphinx against combo/goblins, what about Mr Jin? 10 life that dies to removal instead of actually staying in play to block? i sense an exhume argument coming up, and if you do bring that argument in, I think you missed the point entirely, because exhuming Jin and exhuming Inky offers the same benefit (i.e. not paying life).



You just do not have the luxury of having entomb always!
I agree, but when you do draw entomb, you'll be sad that you don't have powerful targets to tutor for in specific matchups when all you're playing is 4 Jin and 1 Platinum Emperion.



Now with Yin, I really have less of these problems, he is an acceptable target against control, aggro and combo. You have 12 counters ! and 4 hand disruption! really, you CAN keep him alive without much problems ( 1/4 off your deck protects this guy ! if that isn't enough .. )

What kind of control decks do you play against? You have 12 counters and 4 discard. Control has 12+ counters and 8-10 removal depending on the build. Don't forget, you need to draw combinations of counters/discard + entomb/study + dude + reanimation spells to pull off a 5/4 that dies to all that removal. Good luck.



So I will resume: Yin isnt always the Best target, but he is always good. Thus you can play 4, thus making the deck more Consistend, which was the real problem of reanimator.

I HAVE tested it and I tell you it Is an improvement, but nonetheless is reanimator still not good enough :frown: wich I'm sad about.

You said it yourself. He isn't the best target. He is always good, as long as he draws you the cards, but can you guarantee that a 5/4 on turn 4 can survive EOT to draw 7 cards? You play 4 Jin to make the deck more consistent, uhm, like post-reanimation phase? Jin does NOT help reanimator be consistent at all pre-reanimation phase. That IS the real problem of reanimator. If reanimator's problem is winning the game after reanimating creatures, then the deck is really a tier 4 deck. It's a tier 2 deck because it has problem getting the creature out, not protecting it. Now if you play 4 Jin, you're going to have the same problems getting creatures out, but more problems protecting it.

[GGoober]

Forgot to mention and add in the most important part:

How is a 5/4 on turn 3-4 going to close games (even assuming if you didn't lose 10 life to a reanimate spell). In particular, refering to the SCG list, how is a 5/4 going to close games given that he plays 4 Jin and an Emperion and Jin being legendary?

Don't forget that winning the game is a big part of playing MTG. Smart opponents don't scoop even if they discarded down to 0 cards and you are drawing 7 cards a turn, if you can't beat through and win with a 5/4. At least I see problems when an opponent has a 5/6 Goyf and all you have in your deck is Jin and Emperion. Your opponents can still play topdecked creatures and you only have 4 FoW (at this point Jin has killed yourThoughtseizes too just FYI).

[Mr.Dieth]

Agree, the scg list is far from optimal.

I tested with 4 yin, 1iona, 1 sphinx, 1inky so I Stil have every utility creature I need against certain decks, for the times when I do draw entomb.

I play 3 reanimates, 4 exhume and 2 animate dead ( 9 reanimate spells ) So most of the times I am not paying any lives.

With Yin the deck plays diffrent, It is more like a combo/Control deck, and you can afford to play it a bit slower.

But anyhow, I understand your points, but really you haven't tested him, so you really don't know what you are talking about. You cannot just diss a card by saying "If's and but's" :)

He Is better in the deck then that he looks on paper, and Is an improvement for the deck :) I recommand that you test him. if you care enough...

But my guess is you'r just randomly dissing Yin.

[SMR0079]

I can see people are starting to recognize Reanimator has been good now for awhile, to bad, I've been cleaning up in my local circuit with this deck while players are skimping on graveyard hate and running decks that fold to Iona or Blazing Archon.

I don't think the Jin is a four of however, there is something to say for redundancy. Simply running more discard, reanimate, creatures has been an effective strategy for me. It was difficult to find room but once I moved Thoughtseize to the board I was able to increase my turn 2 reanimate significantly. I know what you are thinking, "Cut Thoughtseize? You must be crazy!" I thought the same thing - until I tried it out and proceeded to top 8 4 tournaments in a row, getting to the finals twice, winning once. The thing is game 1 Thoughtseize just slows you down fro playing Entomb, Study, or Researcher on turn one so you can reanimate turn two. The other issue was maintaining enough Blue spells to support Force and a single Misdirection. Post board you bring in the Thoughtseizes to fight hate and generally play a slower game.

Personally, I'm giving Reanimator a rest until the Misstep fever dies down a bit

[rnightingale]

Lets just hope what Wotc will unban mystical tutor this June. After all, they printed MM and Psychic Surgery. it will be a great boost to the deck

[perm]

Lets just hope what Wotc will unban mystical tutor this June.
Yah, I always wanted to see a legacy where only combo decks are playable

[nedleeds]

ZoMG I failz to c how a dec tHat c@sts spellz iz posibl with FoW in tha form@!

Seriously, I'm sick and fucking tired of the mental misstep hysteria. The card is good. It is NOT going to make playing decks that rely on 1 cc spells impossible.

No, but it almost shrinks the deck building space down to 56 cards in non-"I want Chalice on 1" decks.

[Pingu]

Agree, the scg list is far from optimal.

I tested with 4 yin, 1iona, 1 sphinx, 1inky so I Stil have every utility creature I need against certain decks, for the times when I do draw entomb.

I play 3 reanimates, 4 exhume and 2 animate dead ( 9 reanimate spells ) So most of the times I am not paying any lives.

With Yin the deck plays diffrent, It is more like a combo/Control deck, and you can afford to play it a bit slower.

But anyhow, I understand your points, but really you haven't tested him, so you really don't know what you are talking about. You cannot just diss a card by saying "If's and but's" :)

He Is better in the deck then that he looks on paper, and Is an improvement for the deck :) I recommand that you test him. if you care enough...

But my guess is you'r just randomly dissing Yin.

I agree with everything, im also testing a list with 4 Jin 1 Iona 1 Platinum Angel (im gonna get my ass kicked with this choice) and 1 Sphinx, my reanimations spells are 4 reanimates, 4 exhume and 1 animate dead, probably will remove a reanimate to 2 animate dead, the gameplan is like you described more of a control/combo, its still early to say if reanimate makes a comeback or stay as it is, but diss a card like many have done without testing it is stupid, forget old reanimate gameplan about the biggest baddest 99/99 impossible to kill, when they banned the tutor this was over, you can still make a good score on a field unprepared but nothing more, with this guy you must build the deck to protect it and make sure you dont die to the table (easier said than done it but doable), even if he dies in the oponent turn after you draw 7 you have good chances of coming back. But still the deck needs a lot of work and playtesting, today i'm gonna test the hell out against bant, they have removal counters and pressure, so its a good start point.

ps: Metalwalker, you have very good points in theory, but reanimator as you described, about reanimating the best body in 1 or 2 turn is a piece of shitt without mystical, so you need to try a diferent route, if you want to be able to survive in this metagame with this deck you would be better testing this guy out instead of dishing it out completely without any idea of what this guy can do.

ps ps: Sorry for my bad english, its not my language

[Rico Suave]

No, but it almost shrinks the deck building space down to 56 cards in non-"I want Chalice on 1" decks.

The only thing that wants Mental Misstep are blue control decks. There is a large number of decks that are not blue control, nor do they want to play Chalice on 1.

[Lego]

If you lose two life over the course of the game, your 2nd Reanimate will always kill you.

Don't forget that you can always Reanimate Platinum Emperion, and you'll never lose life for it (barring something silly like Humility).

[Michael Keller]

Personally, I'm giving Reanimator a rest until the Misstep fever dies down a bit

You're going to be keeping it on ice then for a long, long time. Misstep is going to become a hardcore legacy staple for years.

[alderon666]

You're going to be keeping it on ice then for a long, long time. Misstep is going to become a hardcore legacy staple for years.

Yeah, but people are adding it to their dogs decks right now. It will eventually find some homes, but right now even Chalice decks are playing it (obvious troll...).

[bowvamp]

Just wanted to point out:
NON BLUE CONTROL DECKS LOVE MENTAL MISSTEP!
that is all

*whispers Pox and floats away*

[alderon666]

When I say reanimator "fizzles" I'm speaking about getting the first creature out say turn 4, I have rarely won a game when it took me so long. Reanimator should be explosive, otherwise you Will get raced bye kotf and goyf.

srlsy How often can you choose who you reanimate ? have you played a lot with the deck ? I have tested the crap out of it, because I love it. And the biggest problem pre yin was: I was always drawing the wrong creatures, who where totally buggers against the deck I was playing, really you do Not want to reanimate a inky against goblins, you do Not want to see a archon/sphinx against combo, and if you pay 8-9lives to get them, well that is just stupid.

You just do not have the luxury of having entomb always!

Now with Yin, I really have less of these problems, he is an acceptable target against control, aggro and combo. You have 12 counters ! and 4 hand disruption! really, you CAN keep him alive without much problems ( 1/4 off your deck protects this guy ! if that isn't enough .. )

So I will resume: Yin isnt always the Best target, but he is always good. Thus you can play 4, thus making the deck more Consistend, which was the real problem of reanimator.

I HAVE tested it and I tell you it Is an improvement, but nonetheless is reanimator still not good enough :frown: wich I'm sad about.

TBH I kind of agree with this guy.

Mr. Jin isn't going to be the end of all of Reanimator problems. It's not going to win every game. But on average he probably is better than Reanimating a random creature because you didn't draw Entomb. Just take for example reanimating a random creature against Elves:

- Iona = Win
- Blazing Archon = Lose as of NPH
- Sphinx = Probably lose, unles they have a really slow hand or you can disrupt it
- Teratodon = Lose
- Leviathan = Lose

- Mr. Jin = Probably win, if you can hold them off from killing you for 1 more turn after he is play, by countering Glimpse or Crossroads

Sometimes you'll turn 3 reanimate Mr. Jin and they you'll elven Lord yo face. But sometimes they just go off and have their key spell FoW/MMed and win after you reanimate a second creature and they have no cards.

[Jenni]

I don't see Jin as the card reanimator needs to be as powerful a deck as before tutor was banned, but I can see how it would help the deck out - the list from the SCG article list looks a bit weak to me to be honest, but discarding Jin, exhume/animate dead him, draw 7 per turn and put your opponent into top-deck mode could buy you the time you need to find an entomb, or Iona, or inkwell or whatever target you need to win in that particular matchup. Assuming you can disrupt your opponent well enough to keep him alive, and you don't just die outright before the draw effect becomes useful of course.

[alderon666]

I don't see Jin as the card reanimator needs to be as powerful a deck as before tutor was banned, but I can see how it would help the deck out - the list from the SCG article list looks a bit weak to me to be honest, but discarding Jin, exhume/animate dead him, draw 7 per turn and put your opponent into top-deck mode could buy you the time you need to find an entomb, or Iona, or inkwell or whatever target you need to win in that particular matchup. Assuming you can disrupt your opponent well enough to keep him alive, and you don't just die outright before the draw effect becomes useful of course.

Eesh, just realized how crappy Exhume becomes after Jin does his thing to you opp's hand. Let's just be glad Emrakul has that shuffle clause.

[Jenni]

Eesh, just realized how crappy Exhume becomes after Jin does his thing to you opp's hand. Let's just be glad Emrakul has that shuffle clause.

Yeah letting an opponent Exhume a goyf on your turn is generally bad - though by that time you should be dropping something that can handle whatever creatures your opponent dropped.

[NyxathidHorror]

Yeah letting an opponent Exhume a goyf on your turn is generally bad - though by that time you should be dropping something that can handle whatever creatures your opponent dropped.

Exactly; whatever you drop won't have much of a problem taking out or racing goyf.

[Hopo]

Exactly; whatever you drop won't have much of a problem taking out or racing goyf.

Except that crappy new Jin.
If you drew 7 when it enters the battlefield, it'd be a bit more awesome. As it is, it simpy loses you the game against basically any combination of opposing creatures and instant speed removal, things you normally shouldn't be caring about at all, and which also happen to be extremely played in this format.

The thing with Reanimator is to get an early Iona out and win. It was the combination of Iona and Entomb what made this deck good. Iona is the go-to creature during the first two turns and the rest are just for more marginal occasions and backup.

[Rico Suave]

Don't forget that you can always Reanimate Platinum Emperion, and you'll never lose life for it (barring something silly like Humility).

And once it is in play, you will also have no way to protect it - you can't pay for Force of Will or Misstep's alternate cost. So there's little point to drawing a bunch of counters anyway.

[GGoober]

Except that crappy new Jin.
If you drew 7 when it enters the battlefield, it'd be a bit more awesome. As it is, it simpy loses you the game against basically any combination of opposing creatures and instant speed removal, things you normally shouldn't be caring about at all, and which also happen to be extremely played in this format.

The thing with Reanimator is to get an early Iona out and win. It was the combination of Iona and Entomb what made this deck good. Iona is the go-to creature during the first two turns and the rest are just for more marginal occasions and backup.

Not just Iona's ability, the fact that she's a 7/7 flying to win games in 3 turns is very important. If she was 6/6 she'll be much weaker (4 turns to win games i.e. one more turn for opponents to try to race your clock), and if she were 5/5 she'll be close to not worthwhile as a reanimation target because she will be crappy on the defense against aggressive decks with Goyfs/Knights/Burn.

Size and clock matter a lot when it comes to reanimation targets. Jin has a really weak 5/4 body for an effect that is not guaranteed to win games unless an opponent taps out (well you draw 7 doesn't mean you win, but if they discard you'll probably win, but a 5/4 isn't that hard to remove in Legacy) compared to a whole suite of other targets available for reanimator. I mean you can't even swing to win games with Jin since he's a 5/4. Even assuming you're still constantly drawing a buttload of cards and your opponents are down to no hands, topdecking Goyfs can put Jin in a very awkward position. In the SCG list, sure he can get a Platinum Emperion, but that's all he plays, drawing extra Jins (legendary) start doing nothing, and your opponents can just chump off emperion for the rest of the game or remove it since your FoW/Missteps are now all turned off by Emperion. What's even more hilarious, your opponents can just sit back with Goyf on the defense and let Jin draw the Reanimator to death in 7 turns.

I'm not saying Jin is horrible in Reanimator. I just don't think he's good enough, and I definitely think the SCG list in the article is horrible. Can the list even beat a Goyf in play?

[Jenni]

I'm not saying Jin is horrible in Reanimator. I just don't think he's good enough, and I definitely think the SCG list in the article is horrible. Can the list even beat a Goyf in play?

Other than the 1 Iona and the platinum emperion a resolved goyf is pretty hard for that list to handle at all - no removal and only Jin to try and stop it is a pretty bad spot to be in. With emperion out you can't even protect it very well so odds are it'll die to a removal spell of some sort long before it kills the goyf, leaving Iona as the only real chance this deck has against goyf (main deck, at least). So, if you get an entomb by turn two or three it can probably handle one, assuming Iona shuts down any removal they may have, and all the spells to get her out resolve of course.