Collusion/Bribery

[Jason]

From the Battle of Wits thread:



Unfortunately, I didn't have time for a more detailed reply.

Pre-arranged splits are explicitly legal - you can agree with someone before an event to a split, and then concede if you get paired against them.

Split + not playing any more matches is also explicitly legal at any time after the single elimination cut of an event, as long as all players remaining in the event agree.

What's not legal is either an outside inducement - "concede and I'll give you $20", or a split agreement + concession within a match - one person can concede, or you can agree to a split, but not both.

There's also usually an expectation among experienced tournament players that if you concede when a win is more beneficial for your opponent than for you, your opponent will reward you for it after the event - but this is only implied by custom. If it ever crosses the line into being explicitly stated, it's Bribery.


The question I have is in reference to the part I bolded.

I had previously asked a judge of a hypothetical situation (because it almost came up): we are playing sealed deck with no cut to top 8, just straight-up win/loss record to determine your placement; it is the last round of the tournament; I am X-0 and my opponent is X-1 (I was paired down); I ask my opponent if he would like to split prize with me; if he answers yes, I then ask if he would like to concede to me (if he answers no, then I will play the match out).

Is this legal? The judge said "yes" but I would have to tread carefully. He said if the opponent knew I had any intention of offering him a split to concede it would be bribery, but if I phrased it by asking if he would like to prize split, waiting for a response, then asking for the concession, he indicated it would be ok. If the situation came up, I was going to have a friend watch the opening parts of my match as a witness.

What about a reverse situation? I ask for a prize split between us and if he agrees, can I scoop to him?

[Angelfire]

Collusion and bribery should really only be illegal when you are offering prizes/cash/sexual favors for concession. If two people want to split a prize and go home, it shouldn't be some legal egg shell walking to get this accomplished.

Also, collusion and bribery rules do absolutely nothing to prevent this from going on amongst people who are friends in real life as they can work things out before and after an event. Not that they really could do anything, just sayin.

[Jason]

In my situation, I was referring to someone with whom I am not a "friend". Hence, me wanting a witness. I didn't want him to claim to a judge that I was trying some sort of swerve on the system and then somehow get DQed and lose all prize.

[Arsenal]

I mentioned this in the "Battle of Wits at SCG Charlotte" thread and I'll bring it up again here;

Why are things like IDs, split pots, offering/asking the concession, etc. accepted in competitive Magic?

I'm pretty active in the fighting game community, a community that actually has a lot in common with the Legacy scene. Naturally, we hold fighting game tournaments and there's always money involved. There are bad players, good players, great players, etc. that enter these tournaments. There are teams (Team Evil Geniuses, etc) with sponsored members, similar to the teams/sponsored members you'll run across in Legacy tournaments.

The thing is we sure as hell will never ask/offer our opponent a concession in order to advance/help out a teammate/etc. We will never have the final 2 players in the tournament agree to split the pot 50/50, then end up not playing the grand finals/playing, but not caring as nothing is at stake anymore. There simply is a higher level of compeitive blood amongst the players, and no mercy is given to anyone regardless of the situation.

Why is splitting the pot, IDs, asking/offering concessions, etc, perfectly acceptable in Magic?

[cdr]

The question I have is in reference to the part I bolded.

I had previously asked a judge of a hypothetical situation (because it almost came up): we are playing sealed deck with no cut to top 8, just straight-up win/loss record to determine your placement; it is the last round of the tournament; I am X-0 and my opponent is X-1 (I was paired down); I ask my opponent if he would like to split prize with me; if he answers yes, I then ask if he would like to concede to me (if he answers no, then I will play the match out).

Is this legal? The judge said "yes" but I would have to tread carefully. He said if the opponent knew I had any intention of offering him a split to concede it would be bribery, but if I phrased it by asking if he would like to prize split, waiting for a response, then asking for the concession, he indicated it would be ok. If the situation came up, I was going to have a friend watch the opening parts of my match as a witness.

What about a reverse situation? I ask for a prize split between us and if he agrees, can I scoop to him?

The problem is that the split would have to be completely separate and independent from the concession. In almost any case, it will not be. In your example, if the X-0 prize + X-2 prize is not equal to the X-1 prize + X-1 prize, it is clearly not independent.

If the person conceding after a split agreement is gaining something he wouldn't have otherwise, it's very clear bribery. And it's very easy for judges to catch and prove, too.

I recommend avoiding splitting + IDing/conceding in all cases.

[cdr]

Collusion and bribery should really only be illegal when you are offering prizes/cash/sexual favors for concession. If two people want to split a prize and go home, it shouldn't be some legal egg shell walking to get this accomplished.

If you want to split a prize and go home, it's legal to split a prize and go home. Not sure what you're complaining about.


Also, collusion and bribery rules do absolutely nothing to prevent this from going on amongst people who are friends in real life as they can work things out before and after an event. Not that they really could do anything, just sayin.

They don't try to.


I mentioned this in the "Battle of Wits at SCG Charlotte" thread and I'll bring it up again here;

Why are things like IDs, split pots, offering/asking the concession, etc. accepted in competitive Magic?

I'm pretty active in the fighting game community, a community that actually has a lot in common with the Legacy scene. Naturally, we hold fighting game tournaments and there's always money involved. There are bad players, good players, great players, etc. that enter these tournaments. There are teams (Team Evil Geniuses, etc) with sponsored members, similar to the teams/sponsored members you'll run across in Legacy tournaments.

The thing is we sure as hell will never ask/offer our opponent a concession in order to advance/help out a teammate/etc. We will never have the final 2 players in the tournament agree to split the pot 50/50, then end up not playing the grand finals/playing, but not caring as nothing is at stake anymore. There simply is a higher level of compeitive blood amongst the players, and no mercy is given to anyone regardless of the situation.

Why is splitting the pot, IDs, asking/offering concessions, etc, perfectly acceptable in Magic?

They are accepted because there's no realistic way to prevent people from maximizing collective value.

IDs and concessions were at one point in the stone ages illegal - but it quickly became apparent that this was not enforceable. People could just play slowly/badly, and how could you prove anything? An unenforceable rule is worse than useless. The rules stick mostly to what can be enforced.

I would avoid trying to draw comparisons between video games and CCGs.

[Arsenal]

They are accepted because there's no realistic way to prevent people from maximizing collective value.

IDs and concessions were at one point in the stone ages illegal - but it quickly became apparent that this was not enforceable. People could just play slowly/badly, and how could you prove anything? An unenforceable rule is worse than useless. The rules stick mostly to what can be enforced.

I would avoid trying to draw comparisons between video games and CCGs.

Why? The fighting game community and the Magic community share many, many similarites, particularly tournament/prize structure. People can play poorly in Magic, people can sandbag and play poorly in Street Fighter.

The competitive nature of Magic is taken over by the financial aspect most times whereas in the fighting game community, the competitive component is paramount and drives the scene and culture. It's too bad that competitive Magic is essentially "Top 4? Split, seeya!"

[cdr]

You might want to start a thread elsewhere if you want to argue philosophy.

I'm willing to bet that people are sandbagging and otherwise colluding in fighting games though, even if it's more difficult to do so and there's community pressure against it.

[Arsenal]

Even if there is sandbagging, my point is that it's unacceptable and definitely not the standard, whereas in competitive Magic, it's the norm and to be expected. And why would this go in a new thread when I'm discussing the merits of concessions/IDs/split pots/asking&offering concessions/deals, etc.

[cdr]

Even if there is sandbagging, my point is that it's unacceptable and definitely not the standard, whereas in competitive Magic, it's the norm and to be expected. And why would this go in a new thread when I'm discussing the merits of concessions/IDs/split pots/asking&offering concessions/deals, etc.

You're on the Rules board - I gave you the best rules answer I could. If you want people's opinions on something, try community. Could be an interesting thread.

[Jason]

So prize split then scoop is illegal if one of you gains something by the concession but simply scooping (presumably after a prize split) to give your opponent more points in the SCG open is not? I'm really confused at this.

[cdr]

So prize split then scoop is illegal if one of you gains something by the concession but simply scooping (presumably after a prize split) to give your opponent more points in the SCG open is not? I'm really confused at this.

In that case, the entire T8 split the money. If the judges thought the split was related to the concessions, it would be bribery, but clearly they don't.

[Offler]

There is a rumour that one guy visited DCI sanctioned tournament and asked everyone who wants to be the second one. Someone agreed to this (one person). Then the play started.

This guy won the tournament... He kept his word and he left the tournament then. Winners from this tournament proceeded to the other higher rated tour... Both players are pro, they earn money by visiting MTG tournaments...

Is this legal?

[cdr]

There is a rumour that one guy visited DCI sanctioned tournament and asked everyone who wants to be the second one. Someone agreed to this (one person). Then the play started.

This guy won the tournament... He kept his word and he left the tournament then. Winners from this tournament proceeded to the other higher rated tour... Both players are pro, they earn money by visiting MTG tournaments...

Is this legal?

Unfortunately, I have no idea what "who wants to be the second one" means, among other things.

[Offler]

He came to tournament claiming that he will surely win, and he was offering his and second place in tournament to anyone. At least once he conceded game and when the tournament finished he let other player to took his place in team which was then sent on pro tour.

[Arsenal]

English doesn't appear to be your primary language, so I understand the difficulty in communicating, but I still don't understand what you're trying to say.

[Offler]

I have to visit London for 6 months at least and it will be fine :)

Player A visited the tournament. He asked loudly everyone in the room: "Which one of you wants to be on second place on this tournament?" Hope its correct this time. Player B said that he agree with the deal. Player B knew that even second place means for him advancement to Pro tour from qualifying.

Player A has won the tournament, but he conceded while he was playing with Player B (and it helped him to improve his placement).

[cdr]

No, there's nothing wrong with asking something silly "who wants to be second place?" before the tournament even starts.